February 23, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of the All of Life podcast, Nate Claiborne and Michael Allen dive into the New Testament book of Hebrews, offering background context and exploring its significance within Christian scripture. They describe Hebrews as a unique combination of sermon and letter, mysterious in its origins, and rich with Old Testament references—especially around themes of sacrifice, holiness, and Jesus as the ultimate fulfillment of those practices. The discussion emphasizes the importance of understanding Old Testament concepts to fully grasp Hebrews' arguments, as the author assumes the audience’s familiarity with Jewish traditions and sacrificial systems.
The hosts also explore the historical backdrop of the letter, suggesting it was likely written in the 60s AD during a period of persecution, possibly under Nero’s reign. This pressure led some early Christians to consider returning to Jewish practices for safety, and Hebrews responds by affirming Jesus' superiority and the finality of His atoning sacrifice. They discuss the book’s deep influence on Christian theology, worship, and liturgy—especially its focus on perseverance, Christ’s role as the high priest, and the enduring importance of faith. For those wanting a deeper dive, they recommend John Calvin’s accessible and insightful commentary on Hebrews and encourage listeners to engage with cross-references to fully appreciate the book’s rich connection to the Old Testament.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the All About Prime
Test.
I'm your host, tony Clayton,and today I'm with Michael Allen
.
How are we doing, mike?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm doing great.
Glad to be talking about a newseries.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
That's right.
So we just started Hebrews thispast Sunday.
We're going to be hanging outhere all the way until summer,
in the Psalms, I think, giventhe way the calendar lines up.
And so we're here today.
We're going to give a littlemore background context and just
some insights into the wayHebrews fits into Christian
scripture, and I don't know whatelse we'll get into.
(00:46):
We'll see where theconversation leads us.
But you know, Ben preached onHebrews, chapter one got us
through that and you know justin the first part of two, but
given our trajectory throughthis book, what do we need to?
What do we really need to knowthat's going to help us.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, Well, you know, Hebrews is, on the one hand,
one of the larger texts in theNew Testament.
There are lines from it thatperhaps are familiar Jesus
Christ is the same yesterday,today and forever.
Statements like that.
At the same time, Hebrews is abit of a funky text.
Yeah, it's surprising andstrange.
(01:23):
In some respects it's like asermon or a homily.
In others it certainly endslike a letter.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Right, though it doesn't all begin that way.
It doesn't start.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You're just off and running, and so it is this weird
amalgam or hybrid of a coupledifferent genres.
It's mysterious, perhaps inmany respects, largely because
we don't know from where itcomes.
Many early Christians thoughtthat it came from the Apostle
Paul.
There are lots of reasons whythat might seem rather unlikely,
(01:52):
in terms of a whole lot ofdifferences from Paul's pretty
typical and repeated style.
But that is not to say thatwe've got a very good sense of
where else it might be from fromsome named person we know in
the early Church, or somebodywhose name we don't know.
And so, of course, in thatregard it in many respects is a
(02:17):
text that comes to us kind oflike Melchizedek, without
beginning or end, without aprecise backdrop to it.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right and if we think about, we were in Romans for a
couple springs and Romans hassome very straightforward parts
to it.
It has some parts that there'sa lot of wrestling you got to do
to make sense of the flow ofthe argument, and Hebrews is
kind of on par with that, butwith the added element that it
is drawing on a lot of OldTestament imagery that if you're
not really familiar with, youget lost pretty quick in what
(02:50):
the author's trying to say.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yep, yeah, and so there's a couple things to take
from that One, and you and Benhad talked about this in an
earlier podcast introducing theseries.
It's especially fitting for usas a congregation, having
wrestled with Leviticus mostrecently in the.
Old Testament, with all itsteaching on sacrifice and blood
(03:12):
and holiness.
Now, to look at the text, morethan any other in the New
Testament, that talks aboutthose very same things and about
the way in which Jesus is thefulfillment of that, and so, in
one sense, we ought to justobserve, as you did there, how
this is a great follow or asequel.
(03:32):
Another thing to observe isthis reminds us and we'll have
to explore this in anotherpodcast this reminds us how much
the Old Testament is afunctional part of the argument,
not just of the New Testament,but Jesus himself, In other
words, the various apostles andwriters of the New Testament.
(03:54):
They didn't just happen to keepquoting the Old Testament.
They clearly learned this fromJesus who, if ever there was
somebody who could just say whathe thought, it's the incarnate
Son of God.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
He could just spout off and he would always offer
the true statement the rightread.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Because I'm the incarnate Son of God.
That's right.
But his MO is always to sayyou've heard it said but I say
to you to refer and quote evenearlier Scripture Right.
To refer and quote even earlierscripture Right.
And clearly that has shapedthis text through one of his
followers who's written it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, and I think that's sometimes to our shame.
It's easy for us to hang out inthe epistles and the gospels,
where it's a little morestraightforward at times to make
sense of what's going on in thetext.
And so, as we're not as much inthe Old Testament, we're not
prepared for a book like Hebrewsthat assumes you know what's
(04:51):
going on with the sacrificialsystem and you know about these
stories from the Old Testamentand you know about these
connections in the prophets andjust sort of it doesn't explain
it all.
Just the author is assuming hisaudience knows it and you're
his audience in this day and age, and so there's the assumption
that you already know what'shappening.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, you know.
That said, I think Hebrews also,if we consider why it's written
and what it's mainly about itdoes help demonstrate to us how
pertinent the Old Testamentstill is for us, how pertinent
the Old Testament still is forus.
So it's worth asking why thistext exists, why Hebrews is
(05:29):
written, and, as best we cantell, sometime in the 60s, so
roughly three decades after thedeath, resurrection and
ascension of Jesus.
Roughly one generation on, weencounter a situation where
there are a group of peopleknown as the Hebrews likely most
(05:52):
think in the area of Rome andthey're there in a time where,
at moments, there's some intensepersecution.
It could be that this is thereign of Nero.
That's perhaps a likely option,but it may be another time.
Persecution is something that isalways in the imagination of
(06:14):
people in the Roman Empire.
That doesn't mean it's aconstant reality, either across
space or across time.
Persecutions tend to come inwaves and in local settings,
normally as a reaction to otherissues.
If a ruler is unpopular or ifthey've lost some other cause or
(06:37):
battle, it's easy to getattention off you by blaming and
going after others.
And Christians are an easytarget, and we do know there's a
wave of persecution in the 60s.
And in Hebrews 10, we read thatthese Hebrew Christians are
commended for having notabandoned but cared for those
(07:00):
who were imprisoned.
And you got to know somethingabout prisons in the Roman world
.
They don't have cafeterias.
The state does not send you toclub fed.
This is not a much less aresort.
It's not even a sustainablelife unless others care for you.
So family typically have tobring food to the imprisoned,
(07:22):
and apparently there were somewho were imprisoned for their
faith, and others in thecongregation or congregations
have gone and provided for them,which may seem generous and
innocuous, except the prisonauthorities would surely
recognize people comingregularly to care for them and
(07:43):
that many or most of them wouldnot look like relatives, and
they would pretty easily surmisethat the reason they're coming
and feeding these prisoners isprecisely because they share the
same faith, the very faith thatwas the reason for their
imprisonment.
So standing with theseimprisoned Christians is a
really dangerous thing andthat's why they're to be
(08:06):
commended and that's why theymight have otherwise shirked
that responsibility.
If practicing the faith andpersisting in it is so dangerous
and potentially lands you inprison, you might be inclined to
(08:29):
say perhaps I misjudged,perhaps I should go back the
Jewish ways of old, perhaps I'dbetter take a lamb to worship
this weekend.
And that really explains whythis text has to focus on the
Old Testament and itsfulfillment, the great central
figures and realities of theJews and how Jesus is superior
(08:51):
or greater still, and inparticular all the teaching on
the atoning sacrifice of Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, the last thing you were saying about going back
to taking a lamb to worship.
I think it's worth noting,prior to the 60s right, that the
Jews and the Christians wereconsidered, at least from the
Romans' point of view.
These are kind of the samething.
They don't really we don't haveto distinguish between them,
and the Jewish people weren'tsubject to persecution because
they were exempt, and as soon asthere was a distinguishment
(09:23):
between, I don't thinkdistinguishment is a word but I
used it anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No, but it communicates, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
And you know what I mean.
It could be a word, could be aword as soon as the Christians
were identifiable groupsseparate from the Jews.
Now they don't have the sameprotections.
They're liable to thesepersecutions that you're talking
about.
So it's a real strong yeah.
I mean.
It was safe back at thesynagogue on Saturday.
Like why do I want to openmyself up to these?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and very quickly.
You know, folks who are in oneminority group are going to find
that their way is going to besafer by distinguishing
themselves from somebody who'san even more marginalized
minority.
Common temptation Sure.
Living in a larger society andso this is going to shape
Jewish-Christian relations overthe next 60 to 70 years
(10:11):
increasingly.
But this is a time of acutepressure, of a real violent
threat, and you know we canimagine having lived through
other moments that might lead toanxiety or worry how much that
can shape your sense of hopeversus despair, of confidence
(10:35):
versus uncertainty.
And plainly the text aims toconvey a sense that you need to
persist, you need to endure, youneed to run the race set before
you, you need to not makeshipwreck of your faith, you
need to not fall in thewilderness as did the Israelites
(10:57):
of old, but you need to persistand press on, precisely because
you can know that, however hardtoday is, you know that today
follows the day in which Jesusmade a sacrifice once and for
all.
You can live on the far side ofthat.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, and so the passages you mentioned.
But we also get the comfort wehave in a high priest who knows
our weakness and all of theseother comfort passages.
But they're set us alongsidethese warning passages as well
that we could get into now wecan circle back to in a little
bit, as we're still unpackingsome of the introductory matters
(11:34):
.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
We oftentimes think, especially maybe, of Hebrews 6
as the most famous or infamousof these warning passages that's
drawn a lot of attention and attimes provoked a good bit of
debate and controversy.
It's actually one of fivedifferent warning passages and
not necessarily the most severe.
(11:55):
They seem to actually get moresevere as you go.
You know we want to keep inmind a couple things.
One is a warning is not apromise of something happening.
It's like a sign on the side ofa road that tells you you know,
if you go off the road, there'sa decline there, you're going
(12:16):
to fall down the side of amountain or something.
Seeing the sign is preciselywhat is meant to aid that not
happening.
And so we do want to observe.
You know, the point of giving awarning is no projection of
despair, it's no prophecy of afailure to come.
It's in fact a you know, it's awarning sign.
(12:40):
It's a early signal of how tocontinue, how to persist.
That's surely an importantthing for us to keep in mind
here.
It's also not the only thingoffered.
Warning's always surrounded bya range of other things that it
follows from, and that it'saccompanied by Things Jesus has
(13:02):
done and things that we're toldare going to continue to be the
case.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, and so maybe our hope too in this series is
that we're going tosystematically work through the
text, passage by passage, andsee these warning passages in
that context and see all theseother pieces and how they all
fit together over the course ofthis spring.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, and we ought to have a reaction that matches
the nature of each section.
You never want to treat a givensection as though it's the
whole picture or the whole viewof Christianity in its entirety.
But I ought to have a gravitythat I feel when I encounter a
(13:42):
warning.
That is not the same as thekind of comfort I feel when I'm
given a word of assurance.
And apparently we see here inHebrews, we see across the New
Testament, we encounter acrossthe entirety of the Bible.
The more we read, god sees usneeding all of those at
(14:03):
different times and in differentways, and we want to
increasingly become people whoare receiving the totality of
what Scripture offers us in thatregard.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, so we've talked a little bit about just the
background context of thisletter.
We've sort of situated it inthe New Testament.
We've connected it a little bitto the old.
You know, looking back atLeviticus we could look ahead to
Numbers and how that's whatwe're.
You know, ben and I discussedthat very briefly but we know
we're going to be in Numbersthis fall and Hebrews is.
(14:37):
There's some continuity therewith some of the things Hebrews
is talking about and some of thethings that Numbers is going to
confront us with.
But maybe we could talk alittle bit about just the I know
this is a broad subject but Iknow you've got good insight in
it the way Hebrews has beenreceived in the Christian
tradition, some of theinfluences it's had, authors
that we could look to for moreguidance and insight into making
(15:00):
sense of the text.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, it's been one of those texts that, not
surprisingly, has been preachedon and written about so very
much.
Some texts, of course, getundue attention for a range of
reasons their scale and size,some particular theme or topic
(15:23):
they explore.
Some particular theme or topicthey explore, or some historic
moment where something was boundup with some big event or
controversy or movement.
Hebrews has really impacted thechurch in a whole range of ways
.
On the one hand, its centralideas are who Christ is and the
(15:43):
nature of the atonement orsacrifice he offers.
Yeah, Aside from talking aboutthe triune God, it's hard to get
to more central matters thanthis particularly as you think
about understanding the natureof the gospel of Jesus Christ
and what's new about the NewTestament of Jesus Christ and
(16:05):
what's new about the NewTestament?
Really, there's no text thatdoes that more fully and with
more beauty and complexity andrange than does Hebrews, and so
it's gained remarkable influencein the church from the early
centuries through the medievalera, the Reformation, to today,
because of its focus on Christand on atonement.
(16:29):
It's also shaped a range ofother things.
On the one hand, hebrews hasinformed, not just thinking
conceptually about worship, butoftentimes the very language we
use in worship.
We might think especially aboutthe beautiful benediction at
the end, speaking with respectto Jesus, the great shepherd of
(16:52):
the sheep.
But Hebrews in various waysconveys language that has shaped
liturgical traditions of avariety of Christian
denominations and churchesaround the globe and through the
centuries.
That's been a really big impact, particularly language people
(17:13):
use when they come to talkingabout the Lord's Supper,
precisely because there we talkabout body and blood and Hebrews
more than any other NewTestament texts talking about
blood like Leviticus was.
So there's Christ in atonement,there's liturgical language that
gets used, especially inpeople's talk of the Lord's
(17:36):
table.
There's also been a long andsteady stream of Hebrews being
central for our understanding ofthe Christian life.
The image of running the raceset before you, the call to
imitate the faith of the saintsof old, these and so many other
(17:59):
texts have really been elementalto the way Christians around
the globe have thought aboutwhat it is to, as we often say
at New City, invite someone tofollow me as I follow Christ.
Well, we're learning that,following those who've done that
before us.
(18:19):
Yes, and Hebrews, more than anyother text, gives you just a
litany of that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, and Hebrews more than any other text gives
you just a litany of that.
Yeah, if you could suggest youknow, if people really want to
just immerse themselves inHebrews this spring.
So you know, we're going tohave sermons on it every Sunday.
You and I are going to recordmaybe another podcast or two
giving some more background.
But if somebody wanted you knowa commentary I know there's
(18:43):
tons of options out there butmaybe from the range of more
devotional to yeah, if you'vereally got some questions, this
is a good.
I mean, probably not JohnOwen's, what seven?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
volume Owen's a bit much.
It's great but it's large.
I would really commend JohnCalvin's commentary.
Calvin's a remarkablecommentator across the Bible and
he's helpful.
He's really marked by being aclear writer.
(19:15):
He really aims at not gettingoverly complex and scholastic.
He avoids a lot of jargon.
He's got a great eye for thelanguage, the style of each
author, and Hebrews has adistinctive sort of style that
he helps you catch and observeshow that relates to other parts
(19:37):
of the Bible that sound similar.
And then, unlike John Owen andsome others, calvin's remarkably
merciful in his brevity and sohe unpacks what you read in a
paragraph or a chapter, but heonly does it for two, three,
four pages.
You don't have to read a lot tosee him guiding you through
(19:59):
interpreting this or thatstatement.
And I would say this is reallycentral to many of Calvin's own
greatest contributions as atheologian and one from our
tradition.
So I've myself actuallyresearched his work on it and
written multiple essays aboutCalvin's engagement of Hebrews,
(20:22):
precisely because he strikes meas such an insightful and
significant help in our tryingto listen well.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And for anyone that has not read anything by Calvin
before, I just want to encouragepeople that you'll be surprised
at how readable it is.
There's some things you canread from 500 years ago that
it's old English and you're not.
I mean, it's not technicallyold English, but you're just
like lost in what they're tryingto say.
But Calvin doesn't read likethat at all.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Not at all.
Yeah, he's the easiest read.
Some people think, well, he wasa former lawyer, so he must
sound sort of pedantic.
Far from it.
He's about as poetically mindeda reader of the Bible as you'll
find.
He's brief, he knows when toland the plane and really he
(21:18):
just helps point you to thespecificities of the scriptural
language itself and to help youreally glory and wonder at some
of the particular things thatare said in a remarkable text
like Hebrew.
So I'd invite folks to readthat.
You can obviously get copies ofthat through your local Amazon
or other sellers, but you canalso find it free online in a
(21:38):
range of places.
So, access is not a problem foranybody.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
We'll put some links in the show notes for different
avenues people might want toexplore.
To get there, as we're kind ofthinking about, calvin's going
to be a really helpful guide ifpeople want to lean into it a
little bit more.
We've given background contexton the book.
Is there any other insight orwisdom advice you want to give
to You'd want people of New Cityto think about, as we're
(22:05):
spending this spring in Hebrews?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
A couple things.
One would be, as you'refollowing along, hebrews is
going to be one where, if youdon't already bring a text with
you, now's a good time to make apractice of bringing a Bible or
having a tablet where it's onit, because there are going to
be points where you want to beable to follow the actual words
(22:32):
and where you'll find preacherspointing you not just to the
words in Hebrews but to thepassages that it's quoting from.
Yeah, and so it's always a goodword to say we want to be folks
who want to be looking at theBible ourselves regularly, but
this would be an especiallyimportant series where having
(22:55):
access immediately is going tobe a big help.
That's one practical prompt.
I think it's important weshould realize when we're
hearing a sermon on this orotherwise, we are listening.
That's the main thing we'redoing.
So I don't want to have my headin my Bible when someone's
reading Scripture from the frontof the sanctuary.
(23:18):
I want to look at them, listento them, but it's really helpful
to have my Bible so that, asthe preacher points me to
something, I can look andconfirm, I can see and I can
note things.
I'm aiming to receive mainlythe Word, but I want to be able
to chew on it, meditate on it,jot down a note to go back to it
(23:42):
, and having the Bible there,having the tablet, having a way
to engage more personally and tofollow up, is going to be
incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, because I think if people, if you look at it,
even on a tablet, like I look atstuff in Logos primarily but if
you're in a print Bible, if itsets off things as quotes from
the Old Testament, it doesn'ttake much flipping through
Hebrews to see it's scatteredall throughout.
It's pulling from a psalm, it'spulling from Jeremiah, it's
(24:13):
pulling from this, pulling fromthat and as we're going through
this series we may refer back tohey, let's go look at the
context in this psalm, thisprophecy, this part of the Old
Testament narrative that isgoing to help us understand a
little bit more of what theauthor of Hebrews is doing when
they pull that into the argumentthat they're making in their
text.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, that'd be.
A second thing is and we'lltalk about this more in a later
podcast on how Hebrews engagesthe Old Testament, and you'll
see it through various sermonsyou can view all sorts of
cross-references in your Bibleas amazing gifts, and you want
to be alert to those.
(24:54):
I wouldn't dare suggest thatthere's a single translation
everybody should read.
There's a bunch of good onesout there.
We read from the ESV, from thepulpit, but that's by no means
always the best on every verse,nor is it the only good option.
There are a bunch of great ones.
I would suggest, though, folksdo want to have a Bible that's
(25:18):
got cross-references.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yes, whether you're doing an.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
NIV, nasb, esv, you name it.
You want to have thosereferences, maybe running
between two columns or along themargin, and those are there and
you'll increasingly see in thisHebrew series.
Those are there like hyperlinkswhere you can see where
language, not just ideas, butthe actual words in some form,
(25:43):
are being drawn from otherscriptures.
And this is going to be aseries where we're going to be
moving across back and forthacross the Bible, because so
much of what Hebrews is tryingto argue is it's a new time, a
new era, a new day, and we needto appreciate what has changed
(26:05):
and how we live in light of it,and that would really lead to a
third thing I'd suggest.
As we come to this as acongregation, we're in the next
step, the next large step beyondour journey through Leviticus,
and hopefully that raises somequestions.
We explored a whole lot ofthings in Leviticus.
Why, on the surface, does itlook like we don't do in worship
(26:29):
some of the things that werediscussed at such length?
Why is it that the pastors getto lead at the Lord's table as
they do, rather than goingthrough so many of the
intricacies, the protocols, therituals that are described at
the end of Exodus and then inLeviticus?
That actually should be a realquestion.
(26:52):
Why does our worship in someways look markedly different?
And Hebrews is the answer.
Hebrews is going to point us towhat ways still mark the faith
of Abraham and our faith asbeing one, but also in what ways
are we in a new era, a new time, and therefore they're markedly
(27:15):
different administrations ofthe same grace, and so I'd want
to invite people to think inlight of what we explored
earlier as a congregation, toask those questions of, well,
what do we do with that now?
And to expect Hebrews toprovide unique and singular
insight there.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I think that really
helps us think through how we'regoing to approach this as a
congregation this spring.
Well, mike, I appreciate youtaking time to chat with me
about Hebrews and giving us somebackground context, some
insight for how to make sense ofthis, alongside hearing it
preached week in and week outthrough the spring here, and we
mentioned it a couple times.
(27:57):
But I'll look forward togetting together with you next
time to record and talk abouthow to read the Old Testament in
light of Hebrews.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and hopefully we'll learn how it looks back
and it'll prepare us also fornumbers soon enough.
That's right, which tells astory that Hebrews is going to
talk about in chapters three andfour.
So there we go.
Hopefully we'll find we keepbenefiting.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
It's like we're planning this all out, so it all
steps together.
Welcome to another episode of the All About Prime
Test.
I'm your host, tony Clayton,and today I'm with Michael Allen
.
How are we doing, mike?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm doing great.
Glad to be talking about a newseries.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
That's right.
So we just started Hebrews thispast Sunday.
We're going to be hanging outhere all the way until summer,
in the Psalms, I think, giventhe way the calendar lines up.
And so we're here today.
We're going to give a littlemore background context and just
some insights into the wayHebrews fits into Christian
scripture, and I don't know whatelse we'll get into.
(00:46):
We'll see where theconversation leads us.
But you know, Ben preached onHebrews, chapter one got us
through that and you know justin the first part of two, but
given our trajectory throughthis book, what do we need to?
What do we really need to knowthat's going to help us.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, Well, you know, Hebrews is, on the one hand,
one of the larger texts in theNew Testament.
There are lines from it thatperhaps are familiar Jesus
Christ is the same yesterday,today and forever.
Statements like that.
At the same time, Hebrews is abit of a funky text.
Yeah, it's surprising andstrange.
(01:23):
In some respects it's like asermon or a homily.
In others it certainly endslike a letter.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Right, though it doesn't all begin that way.
It doesn't start.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
You're just off and running, and so it is this weird
amalgam or hybrid of a coupledifferent genres.
It's mysterious, perhaps inmany respects, largely because
we don't know from where itcomes.
Many early Christians thoughtthat it came from the Apostle
Paul.
There are lots of reasons whythat might seem rather unlikely,
(01:52):
in terms of a whole lot ofdifferences from Paul's pretty
typical and repeated style.
But that is not to say thatwe've got a very good sense of
where else it might be from fromsome named person we know in
the early Church, or somebodywhose name we don't know.
And so, of course, in thatregard it in many respects is a
(02:17):
text that comes to us kind oflike Melchizedek, without
beginning or end, without aprecise backdrop to it.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right and if we think about, we were in Romans for a
couple springs and Romans hassome very straightforward parts
to it.
It has some parts that there'sa lot of wrestling you got to do
to make sense of the flow ofthe argument, and Hebrews is
kind of on par with that, butwith the added element that it
is drawing on a lot of OldTestament imagery that if you're
not really familiar with, youget lost pretty quick in what
(02:50):
the author's trying to say.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yep, yeah, and so there's a couple things to take
from that One, and you and Benhad talked about this in an
earlier podcast introducing theseries.
It's especially fitting for usas a congregation, having
wrestled with Leviticus mostrecently in the.
Old Testament, with all itsteaching on sacrifice and blood
(03:12):
and holiness.
Now, to look at the text, morethan any other in the New
Testament, that talks aboutthose very same things and about
the way in which Jesus is thefulfillment of that, and so, in
one sense, we ought to justobserve, as you did there, how
this is a great follow or asequel.
(03:32):
Another thing to observe isthis reminds us and we'll have
to explore this in anotherpodcast this reminds us how much
the Old Testament is afunctional part of the argument,
not just of the New Testament,but Jesus himself, In other
words, the various apostles andwriters of the New Testament.
(03:54):
They didn't just happen to keepquoting the Old Testament.
They clearly learned this fromJesus who, if ever there was
somebody who could just say whathe thought, it's the incarnate
Son of God.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
He could just spout off and he would always offer
the true statement the rightread.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Because I'm the incarnate Son of God.
That's right.
But his MO is always to sayyou've heard it said but I say
to you to refer and quote evenearlier Scripture Right.
To refer and quote even earlierscripture Right.
And clearly that has shapedthis text through one of his
followers who's written it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, and I think that's sometimes to our shame.
It's easy for us to hang out inthe epistles and the gospels,
where it's a little morestraightforward at times to make
sense of what's going on in thetext.
And so, as we're not as much inthe Old Testament, we're not
prepared for a book like Hebrewsthat assumes you know what's
(04:51):
going on with the sacrificialsystem and you know about these
stories from the Old Testamentand you know about these
connections in the prophets andjust sort of it doesn't explain
it all.
Just the author is assuming hisaudience knows it and you're
his audience in this day and age, and so there's the assumption
that you already know what'shappening.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, you know.
That said, I think Hebrews also,if we consider why it's written
and what it's mainly about itdoes help demonstrate to us how
pertinent the Old Testamentstill is for us, how pertinent
the Old Testament still is forus.
So it's worth asking why thistext exists, why Hebrews is
(05:29):
written, and, as best we cantell, sometime in the 60s, so
roughly three decades after thedeath, resurrection and
ascension of Jesus.
Roughly one generation on, weencounter a situation where
there are a group of peopleknown as the Hebrews likely most
(05:52):
think in the area of Rome andthey're there in a time where,
at moments, there's some intensepersecution.
It could be that this is thereign of Nero.
That's perhaps a likely option,but it may be another time.
Persecution is something that isalways in the imagination of
(06:14):
people in the Roman Empire.
That doesn't mean it's aconstant reality, either across
space or across time.
Persecutions tend to come inwaves and in local settings,
normally as a reaction to otherissues.
If a ruler is unpopular or ifthey've lost some other cause or
(06:37):
battle, it's easy to getattention off you by blaming and
going after others.
And Christians are an easytarget, and we do know there's a
wave of persecution in the 60s.
And in Hebrews 10, we read thatthese Hebrew Christians are
commended for having notabandoned but cared for those
(07:00):
who were imprisoned.
And you got to know somethingabout prisons in the Roman world
.
They don't have cafeterias.
The state does not send you toclub fed.
This is not a much less aresort.
It's not even a sustainablelife unless others care for you.
So family typically have tobring food to the imprisoned,
(07:22):
and apparently there were somewho were imprisoned for their
faith, and others in thecongregation or congregations
have gone and provided for them,which may seem generous and
innocuous, except the prisonauthorities would surely
recognize people comingregularly to care for them and
(07:43):
that many or most of them wouldnot look like relatives, and
they would pretty easily surmisethat the reason they're coming
and feeding these prisoners isprecisely because they share the
same faith, the very faith thatwas the reason for their
imprisonment.
So standing with theseimprisoned Christians is a
really dangerous thing andthat's why they're to be
(08:06):
commended and that's why theymight have otherwise shirked
that responsibility.
If practicing the faith andpersisting in it is so dangerous
and potentially lands you inprison, you might be inclined to
(08:29):
say perhaps I misjudged,perhaps I should go back the
Jewish ways of old, perhaps I'dbetter take a lamb to worship
this weekend.
And that really explains whythis text has to focus on the
Old Testament and itsfulfillment, the great central
figures and realities of theJews and how Jesus is superior
(08:51):
or greater still, and inparticular all the teaching on
the atoning sacrifice of Christ.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, the last thing you were saying about going back
to taking a lamb to worship.
I think it's worth noting,prior to the 60s right, that the
Jews and the Christians wereconsidered, at least from the
Romans' point of view.
These are kind of the samething.
They don't really we don't haveto distinguish between them,
and the Jewish people weren'tsubject to persecution because
they were exempt, and as soon asthere was a distinguishment
(09:23):
between, I don't thinkdistinguishment is a word but I
used it anyway.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No, but it communicates, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
And you know what I mean.
It could be a word, could be aword as soon as the Christians
were identifiable groupsseparate from the Jews.
Now they don't have the sameprotections.
They're liable to thesepersecutions that you're talking
about.
So it's a real strong yeah.
I mean.
It was safe back at thesynagogue on Saturday.
Like why do I want to openmyself up to these?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and very quickly.
You know, folks who are in oneminority group are going to find
that their way is going to besafer by distinguishing
themselves from somebody who'san even more marginalized
minority.
Common temptation Sure.
Living in a larger society andso this is going to shape
Jewish-Christian relations overthe next 60 to 70 years
(10:11):
increasingly.
But this is a time of acutepressure, of a real violent
threat, and you know we canimagine having lived through
other moments that might lead toanxiety or worry how much that
can shape your sense of hopeversus despair, of confidence
(10:35):
versus uncertainty.
And plainly the text aims toconvey a sense that you need to
persist, you need to endure, youneed to run the race set before
you, you need to not makeshipwreck of your faith, you
need to not fall in thewilderness as did the Israelites
(10:57):
of old, but you need to persistand press on, precisely because
you can know that, however hardtoday is, you know that today
follows the day in which Jesusmade a sacrifice once and for
all.
You can live on the far side ofthat.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, and so the passages you mentioned.
But we also get the comfort wehave in a high priest who knows
our weakness and all of theseother comfort passages.
But they're set us alongsidethese warning passages as well
that we could get into now wecan circle back to in a little
bit, as we're still unpackingsome of the introductory matters
(11:34):
.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
We oftentimes think, especially maybe, of Hebrews 6
as the most famous or infamousof these warning passages that's
drawn a lot of attention and attimes provoked a good bit of
debate and controversy.
It's actually one of fivedifferent warning passages and
not necessarily the most severe.
(11:55):
They seem to actually get moresevere as you go.
You know we want to keep inmind a couple things.
One is a warning is not apromise of something happening.
It's like a sign on the side ofa road that tells you you know,
if you go off the road, there'sa decline there, you're going
(12:16):
to fall down the side of amountain or something.
Seeing the sign is preciselywhat is meant to aid that not
happening.
And so we do want to observe.
You know, the point of giving awarning is no projection of
despair, it's no prophecy of afailure to come.
It's in fact a you know, it's awarning sign.
(12:40):
It's a early signal of how tocontinue, how to persist.
That's surely an importantthing for us to keep in mind
here.
It's also not the only thingoffered.
Warning's always surrounded bya range of other things that it
follows from, and that it'saccompanied by Things Jesus has
(13:02):
done and things that we're toldare going to continue to be the
case.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, and so maybe our hope too in this series is
that we're going tosystematically work through the
text, passage by passage, andsee these warning passages in
that context and see all theseother pieces and how they all
fit together over the course ofthis spring.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, and we ought to have a reaction that matches
the nature of each section.
You never want to treat a givensection as though it's the
whole picture or the whole viewof Christianity in its entirety.
But I ought to have a gravitythat I feel when I encounter a
(13:42):
warning.
That is not the same as thekind of comfort I feel when I'm
given a word of assurance.
And apparently we see here inHebrews, we see across the New
Testament, we encounter acrossthe entirety of the Bible.
The more we read, god sees usneeding all of those at
(14:03):
different times and in differentways, and we want to
increasingly become people whoare receiving the totality of
what Scripture offers us in thatregard.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, so we've talked a little bit about just the
background context of thisletter.
We've sort of situated it inthe New Testament.
We've connected it a little bitto the old.
You know, looking back atLeviticus we could look ahead to
Numbers and how that's whatwe're.
You know, ben and I discussedthat very briefly but we know
we're going to be in Numbersthis fall and Hebrews is.
(14:37):
There's some continuity therewith some of the things Hebrews
is talking about and some of thethings that Numbers is going to
confront us with.
But maybe we could talk alittle bit about just the I know
this is a broad subject but Iknow you've got good insight in
it the way Hebrews has beenreceived in the Christian
tradition, some of theinfluences it's had, authors
that we could look to for moreguidance and insight into making
(15:00):
sense of the text.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, it's been one of those texts that, not
surprisingly, has been preachedon and written about so very
much.
Some texts, of course, getundue attention for a range of
reasons their scale and size,some particular theme or topic
(15:23):
they explore.
Some particular theme or topicthey explore, or some historic
moment where something was boundup with some big event or
controversy or movement.
Hebrews has really impacted thechurch in a whole range of ways
.
On the one hand, its centralideas are who Christ is and the
(15:43):
nature of the atonement orsacrifice he offers.
Yeah, Aside from talking aboutthe triune God, it's hard to get
to more central matters thanthis particularly as you think
about understanding the natureof the gospel of Jesus Christ
and what's new about the NewTestament of Jesus Christ and
(16:05):
what's new about the NewTestament?
Really, there's no text thatdoes that more fully and with
more beauty and complexity andrange than does Hebrews, and so
it's gained remarkable influencein the church from the early
centuries through the medievalera, the Reformation, to today,
because of its focus on Christand on atonement.
(16:29):
It's also shaped a range ofother things.
On the one hand, hebrews hasinformed, not just thinking
conceptually about worship, butoftentimes the very language we
use in worship.
We might think especially aboutthe beautiful benediction at
the end, speaking with respectto Jesus, the great shepherd of
(16:52):
the sheep.
But Hebrews in various waysconveys language that has shaped
liturgical traditions of avariety of Christian
denominations and churchesaround the globe and through the
centuries.
That's been a really big impact, particularly language people
(17:13):
use when they come to talkingabout the Lord's Supper,
precisely because there we talkabout body and blood and Hebrews
more than any other NewTestament texts talking about
blood like Leviticus was.
So there's Christ in atonement,there's liturgical language that
gets used, especially inpeople's talk of the Lord's
(17:36):
table.
There's also been a long andsteady stream of Hebrews being
central for our understanding ofthe Christian life.
The image of running the raceset before you, the call to
imitate the faith of the saintsof old, these and so many other
(17:59):
texts have really been elementalto the way Christians around
the globe have thought aboutwhat it is to, as we often say
at New City, invite someone tofollow me as I follow Christ.
Well, we're learning that,following those who've done that
before us.
(18:19):
Yes, and Hebrews, more than anyother text, gives you just a
litany of that.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, and Hebrews more than any other text gives
you just a litany of that.
Yeah, if you could suggest youknow, if people really want to
just immerse themselves inHebrews this spring.
So you know, we're going tohave sermons on it every Sunday.
You and I are going to recordmaybe another podcast or two
giving some more background.
But if somebody wanted you knowa commentary I know there's
(18:43):
tons of options out there butmaybe from the range of more
devotional to yeah, if you'vereally got some questions, this
is a good.
I mean, probably not JohnOwen's, what seven?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
volume Owen's a bit much.
It's great but it's large.
I would really commend JohnCalvin's commentary.
Calvin's a remarkablecommentator across the Bible and
he's helpful.
He's really marked by being aclear writer.
(19:15):
He really aims at not gettingoverly complex and scholastic.
He avoids a lot of jargon.
He's got a great eye for thelanguage, the style of each
author, and Hebrews has adistinctive sort of style that
he helps you catch and observeshow that relates to other parts
(19:37):
of the Bible that sound similar.
And then, unlike John Owen andsome others, calvin's remarkably
merciful in his brevity and sohe unpacks what you read in a
paragraph or a chapter, but heonly does it for two, three,
four pages.
You don't have to read a lot tosee him guiding you through
(19:59):
interpreting this or thatstatement.
And I would say this is reallycentral to many of Calvin's own
greatest contributions as atheologian and one from our
tradition.
So I've myself actuallyresearched his work on it and
written multiple essays aboutCalvin's engagement of Hebrews,
(20:22):
precisely because he strikes meas such an insightful and
significant help in our tryingto listen well.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And for anyone that has not read anything by Calvin
before, I just want to encouragepeople that you'll be surprised
at how readable it is.
There's some things you canread from 500 years ago that
it's old English and you're not.
I mean, it's not technicallyold English, but you're just
like lost in what they're tryingto say.
But Calvin doesn't read likethat at all.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Not at all.
Yeah, he's the easiest read.
Some people think, well, he wasa former lawyer, so he must
sound sort of pedantic.
Far from it.
He's about as poetically mindeda reader of the Bible as you'll
find.
He's brief, he knows when toland the plane and really he
(21:18):
just helps point you to thespecificities of the scriptural
language itself and to help youreally glory and wonder at some
of the particular things thatare said in a remarkable text
like Hebrew.
So I'd invite folks to readthat.
You can obviously get copies ofthat through your local Amazon
or other sellers, but you canalso find it free online in a
(21:38):
range of places.
So, access is not a problem foranybody.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
We'll put some links in the show notes for different
avenues people might want toexplore.
To get there, as we're kind ofthinking about, calvin's going
to be a really helpful guide ifpeople want to lean into it a
little bit more.
We've given background contexton the book.
Is there any other insight orwisdom advice you want to give
to You'd want people of New Cityto think about, as we're
(22:05):
spending this spring in Hebrews?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
A couple things.
One would be, as you'refollowing along, hebrews is
going to be one where, if youdon't already bring a text with
you, now's a good time to make apractice of bringing a Bible or
having a tablet where it's onit, because there are going to
be points where you want to beable to follow the actual words
(22:32):
and where you'll find preacherspointing you not just to the
words in Hebrews but to thepassages that it's quoting from.
Yeah, and so it's always a goodword to say we want to be folks
who want to be looking at theBible ourselves regularly, but
this would be an especiallyimportant series where having
(22:55):
access immediately is going tobe a big help.
That's one practical prompt.
I think it's important weshould realize when we're
hearing a sermon on this orotherwise, we are listening.
That's the main thing we'redoing.
So I don't want to have my headin my Bible when someone's
reading Scripture from the frontof the sanctuary.
(23:18):
I want to look at them, listento them, but it's really helpful
to have my Bible so that, asthe preacher points me to
something, I can look andconfirm, I can see and I can
note things.
I'm aiming to receive mainlythe Word, but I want to be able
to chew on it, meditate on it,jot down a note to go back to it
(23:42):
, and having the Bible there,having the tablet, having a way
to engage more personally and tofollow up, is going to be
incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, because I think if people, if you look at it,
even on a tablet, like I look atstuff in Logos primarily but if
you're in a print Bible, if itsets off things as quotes from
the Old Testament, it doesn'ttake much flipping through
Hebrews to see it's scatteredall throughout.
It's pulling from a psalm, it'spulling from Jeremiah, it's
(24:13):
pulling from this, pulling fromthat and as we're going through
this series we may refer back tohey, let's go look at the
context in this psalm, thisprophecy, this part of the Old
Testament narrative that isgoing to help us understand a
little bit more of what theauthor of Hebrews is doing when
they pull that into the argumentthat they're making in their
text.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, that'd be.
A second thing is and we'lltalk about this more in a later
podcast on how Hebrews engagesthe Old Testament, and you'll
see it through various sermonsyou can view all sorts of
cross-references in your Bibleas amazing gifts, and you want
to be alert to those.
(24:54):
I wouldn't dare suggest thatthere's a single translation
everybody should read.
There's a bunch of good onesout there.
We read from the ESV, from thepulpit, but that's by no means
always the best on every verse,nor is it the only good option.
There are a bunch of great ones.
I would suggest, though, folksdo want to have a Bible that's
(25:18):
got cross-references.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yes, whether you're doing an.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
NIV, nasb, esv, you name it.
You want to have thosereferences, maybe running
between two columns or along themargin, and those are there and
you'll increasingly see in thisHebrew series.
Those are there like hyperlinkswhere you can see where
language, not just ideas, butthe actual words in some form,
(25:43):
are being drawn from otherscriptures.
And this is going to be aseries where we're going to be
moving across back and forthacross the Bible, because so
much of what Hebrews is tryingto argue is it's a new time, a
new era, a new day, and we needto appreciate what has changed
(26:05):
and how we live in light of it,and that would really lead to a
third thing I'd suggest.
As we come to this as acongregation, we're in the next
step, the next large step beyondour journey through Leviticus,
and hopefully that raises somequestions.
We explored a whole lot ofthings in Leviticus.
Why, on the surface, does itlook like we don't do in worship
(26:29):
some of the things that werediscussed at such length?
Why is it that the pastors getto lead at the Lord's table as
they do, rather than goingthrough so many of the
intricacies, the protocols, therituals that are described at
the end of Exodus and then inLeviticus?
That actually should be a realquestion.
(26:52):
Why does our worship in someways look markedly different?
And Hebrews is the answer.
Hebrews is going to point us towhat ways still mark the faith
of Abraham and our faith asbeing one, but also in what ways
are we in a new era, a new time, and therefore they're markedly
(27:15):
different administrations ofthe same grace, and so I'd want
to invite people to think inlight of what we explored
earlier as a congregation, toask those questions of, well,
what do we do with that now?
And to expect Hebrews toprovide unique and singular
insight there.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I think that really
helps us think through how we'regoing to approach this as a
congregation this spring.
Well, mike, I appreciate youtaking time to chat with me
about Hebrews and giving us somebackground context, some
insight for how to make sense ofthis, alongside hearing it
preached week in and week outthrough the spring here, and we
mentioned it a couple times.
(27:57):
But I'll look forward togetting together with you next
time to record and talk abouthow to read the Old Testament in
light of Hebrews.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and hopefully we'll learn how it looks back
and it'll prepare us also fornumbers soon enough.
That's right, which tells astory that Hebrews is going to
talk about in chapters three andfour.
So there we go.
Hopefully we'll find we keepbenefiting.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
It's like we're planning this all out, so it all
steps together.
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