November 12, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode, Damein Schitter discusses following Jesus in politics with Robert Cunningham. Robert is the founder and director of Christ for Kentucky, and the former Senior Pastor of Tates Creek Presbyterian Church. He and Damein were at Covenant Theological Seminary at the same time, and Robert is now a current Ph.D. candidate at the University of Leicester, researching the role of religion in America's founding era.
In their conversation, Robert and Damein draw on David Koyzis's book, Political Visions & Illusions, to make a bold statement: politics often masquerades as a modern idol, promising salvation and redemption much like religious doctrines. Their exploration then challenges us to reconsider where we place our faith and trust amidst a polarized society.
Taking a deeper dive, Damein and Robert look into the concept of political ideologies as "isms" that offer false promises of redemption, akin to religious gospels. They highlight the dangers of viewing political opponents as heretics, fueled by echo chambers and partisan media. They underscore the importance of renouncing these ideological idols and reorienting ourselves towards the kingdom of God, advocating for a gospel that inherently carries social implications without equating salvation with social deeds. They invite us to grapple with engagement in a secularizing world, finding balance between withdrawal and deeper involvement.
In conclusion, they shift their focus to the broader social responsibilities of Christian faith, challenging the tendency to compartmentalize it as merely a personal practice. Inspired by John Stott's interpretation of being "salt and light," they encourage believers to actively create a world that mirrors God's will. They also address the misconceptions about political divides, highlighting the significance of connecting with real-life neighbors rather than relying on algorithm-driven echo chambers. They land on an emphasis on the power of feeling seen and the importance of engaging deeply with your community to gain a nuanced understanding of today's political landscape.
For more about Robert, you can visit his website, and find the episodes on his podcast going further into David Koyzis's work here: Every Square Inch
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
great, robert, it's great to be with you.
Yeah, thanks for having me,thanks for joining us.
Uh, we this is actually goingto be the last resource that
we're releasing in a season thisyear, in 2024, where we started
in July with a sermon seriescalled Following Jesus in
Politics, and every fall we do aFollowing Jesus in series, and
(00:33):
this year it was politics, andso, in terms of timing, this is
just a couple of days after theelection, which wasn't the
original plan, but here we are,so that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, probably works out a little better.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Exactly, that's right .
One of the things that Iappreciate so much about your
podcast is public.
Theology is what you're afterand what you're doing, and, of
course, politics and governmentare a gift.
They're ordained by God, but ina fallen world it presents
unique challenges to navigate,but nevertheless, it's a gift
for the common good, and so, asyou think about that out loud on
(01:09):
your podcast, I've alwayslearned and recently you just
did a whole series on one of my,if not my favorite, book on
this topic by David Koitsis, andyou did the heavy lifting that
someone needed to do and I'm soglad you did it which was to
synthesize and elaborate on histhinking.
In fact, in 2020, I recommendedthat book to a handful of my
(01:30):
friends, and three of them inparticular.
They all three responded don'tever recommend this book to
anyone else because it's sodense.
Don't ever recommend this bookto anyone else.
And yet I'm honored that youthought that I would understand
it, which I just thought was sofunny.
So you did the heavy liftingthat I was unable to do, so
thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, that's what I love doing.
I'm not necessarily a smart guy, but I like to take smart
people and make it accessible tonormal people.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Well, you're really good at it, truly, and so let's
go ahead and jump in.
Yeah, all right.
So I mentioned David Coitus,and how you unpacked his
ideologies is what he calls themand you talk about how they
function as modern idols,essentially, and all of these
(02:20):
ideologies have their ownversion of salvation, as all
idol systems do, of course.
So here's the beginning.
Can you walk us through howthat works?
And particularly, the questionis how do ideologies go from
political theories, in this case, to something that competes for
our faith?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's so many things at play.
I think, first and foremost,what's taking place is that, you
know, as America increasinglygoes the way of Western society,
(02:59):
which becomes essentially apost-Christian secular age,
which becomes essentially apost-Christian secular age, what
Charles Taylor, who of coursehas done the most work in this
(03:20):
idea of secularity, what heargues is that the secular
project is unsustainable becausepeople are religious.
It's impossible not to bereligious.
To use the language that Kellerused a lot.
We're going to be worshipingsomething false gods, all that
stuff.
Expressions of religiondiminish as traditional
(03:45):
communities diminish, you know,neighborhoods and clubs and even
the workplace and so forth, asall of these places where we
used to find these religiousimpulses satisfied go away.
We have to find other places toexpress these.
We have to find other places toexpress these, and so what
(04:30):
you're seeing in our country haslost that balanced, communal
aspect and has become thisdeeply entrenched religion in
itself, and I just think that isbecause something has to fill
the void in our society asreligion decreases.
So I think, first and foremost,that is what's going on.
(04:52):
We have to be religious, we'retaking away religion, we're
going to find it somewhere, andpolitics is kind of low hanging
fruit for that for a variety ofreasons.
But yeah, so that politics,that, who are making that
obvious connection, that we'reelevating this thing way
(05:30):
disproportionately.
We're worshiping politics andpoliticians.
That's not a new take.
I think what sets Coyce'sscholarship apart is he goes
further, by going beyond theidea of, yeah, sure, we make an
idol of politics and politiciansand ideologies and political
theory and all that stuff.
And he goes further to say wedon't just make an idol of
(05:53):
something, which we do, but whatare we doing?
When we make an idol ofsomething, we are trusting in it
for a form of salvation?
What you worship, you are alsotrusting and I think that's what
sets his work apart is that weworship our politicians, we
(06:14):
worship our political theoriesand ideologies, we worship a
partisan political party orwhatnot, but even more so we're
trusting it that what we worshipoffers us a gospel of sorts.
And I think that's where Koizisis indispensable, where he kind
of fleshes out the different,not just idols of these
(06:35):
different ideologies, but thegospels, the plan of salvation
that they offer.
And so, yeah, I think it'sreally important scholarship,
but, like you said, it's prettydifficult to access.
So that's why I do it.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, it's so good.
I think one of the things thatis so powerful about it, and how
you brought it to a broaderaudience, is that understanding
the ideologies are helpful, butunderstanding what it means to
trust them is all the morehelpful Because I think that
(07:11):
some Christians that I've talkedto especially in this election
cycle but I think that this hasbeen true for a while now
because of the dynamics of asecularizing world that you
already mentioned is thatincreasingly of a secularizing
world that you already mentioned, is that increasingly, you have
Christians who are either sofed up and cynical that they
eject from thoughtful engagementor, increasingly, what I've
(07:34):
noticed is that you haveChristians that are also fed up
but, rather than rejecting incynicism, they move toward
engagement in a way that even intheir own lives they never have
before.
And so when I think about that,I think about there are various
ways in which that's true, andthere are several ideologies I
(07:57):
think it's five that you walkthrough those chapters of the
book and if you can rememberwhat they are, what are they.
You don't have to go into allof them if you don't want.
But what are they?
And here's the real question iscan you unpack.
What makes them in general socompelling that they almost
become new gospels.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, let me try.
(08:38):
Well, and that in itself is whyI also think Coyce's work is
important, because he saysthere's much infighting within
the Republican Party of what isconservatism, and you know
because, Trump is Trump aconservative, I mean, I guess,
but far more a populist, farmore a nationalist.
(09:11):
So you kind of got thatnationalist aspect of that.
And then what's really going onright now, post-election, is
fighting within the democratparty of trying to define what
it is we we actually believe andstand for and are going to be
moving forward it's just not assimple as democrat republican.
Yes so let me try to let me letme off the top of my head.
So the big one's liberalism, um, um, all of us are our
liberalism, not in the way wetend to use the word liberal,
which is just a progressivepolitical thought, but
(09:34):
liberalism in the classicliberal sense of Western society
which our country is based on.
So you've got classicliberalism, you have nationalism
, you have conservatism, youhave socialism.
And what's another ism I'mmissing?
You said five, yeah, you saidconservatism right.
(09:56):
Yeah, I said conservatism,liberalism, socialism, I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
It's so funny.
I thought, if I'm'm gonna askthat question, I should write
well, you would think if you'reinterviewing the guy who
actually recorded the podcastsand and read the stuff he'd
remember.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Dude, that's so long ago though, I know um.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, what do we see?
Marxism or socialism, socialismyeah, okay I don't remember
what he called it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I don't know.
I had to go back and look in mynotes what I covered, because
he actually has a chapter inthere I did not include and
maybe that's what you'rethinking about which is he made
up a word democratism.
Basically democracy, majorityrule is another ism, but I don't
(10:45):
know.
I did not include that for avariety of reasons, but I might
be missing one.
But anyway, that's okay, that'sgreat.
Let's go with those way that wehave subscribed to, with an
(11:07):
idolatrous religious fervorwhich then buys into a what I
call a government gospel, afalse gospel that each of those
isms promises.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know their own fall, their own redemptive story
their own.
The big one is their owneschatology their own.
This will finally set the worldfree.
If we just subscribe to thatideology to its rightful end and
get everybody to buy into itand submit to it.
(11:43):
That will save the world.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
That's right, it's so good, exactly, and he.
One of the things that's sopowerful about that is he aligns
each one of these isms in whatwe would call a four-chapter
narrative that the gospel, thiscreation, fall, redemption,
consummation but really we canthink about.
Everyone has a view and theseideologies are no different in a
way, things ought to be and howthey fell from that, what
(12:10):
redemption looks like and whatthey will be if that solution
actually comes about.
And it's and he does amasterful job of that.
I really loved how you calledon the government gospels.
It's just so true.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, it's so true, yeah, that, yeah, to be fair,
that's that.
That's something I just did.
That's he doesn't use thatlanguage.
To be fair, that's something Ijust.
He doesn't use that language, Ijust used that.
I just made that up tosummarize what he's getting at
with each of them.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, which is great.
I think it's the way Iexperienced it was not only did
you synthesize his work, but youelaborated on it in a creative
way, and that's an example ofhow you did it, and I think
people can really resonate withthat when they think about it.
All right, so one of the thingsthat you mentioned is
polarization, and polarizationhas a number of.
There's a number of reasons asto why, but when we think about
(12:58):
that, we talk about Koiz's ideaof political ideologies as
competing idols, that once wecommit to those, we now have
sides essentially.
Once we commit to those, we nowhave sides essentially.
And so I'm curious in yourseries, you highlighted how
these gospels, these governmentgospels, make us see political
opponents as heretics ratherthan as fellow humans, and that
(13:20):
was so powerful.
I remember where I was when Ilistened to that and I paused
the podcast and rewinded it.
I didn't rewind, I backed it up, and so I just thought it was
so helpful.
So what you said specificallyis that because there are
gospels, we can't just disagreewith people.
Essentially, they're hereticsbecause this is our religion.
Now.
And so here's my question is youcan elaborate on that if you'd
(13:42):
like, but how can Christiansresist this urge?
I mean, how can we resist it,especially when we were
surrounded by echo chambers,partisan media and all the like?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, so many answers .
I mean the obvious answer is torenounce the idol and reorient
ourselves to the kingdom of God.
That's the easy answer, which Idon't want to just like do the
obligatory spiritual nod toward.
I do think our own repentanceand worship would be step one,
(14:21):
but I do think that part of itis a categorical error of not
understanding, or maybe atheological error of just not
understanding, the ordained roleof the state and our, and then
(14:42):
maybe so I think let me get offthe state first because, yes, I
think actually doing someresearch into the scriptures,
the Christian tradition and howthey have had crazy opinions
(15:06):
about the state throughout itshistory, but actually studying
the scriptures and Christianthought tradition about what is
the role of the state in God'sworld is important because we're
so disproportionate in ourtrust in the coercive power of
(15:27):
the state.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I do think that is .
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But let me give a better answer.
I think it's probably less anoveremphasis and
disproportionate understandingof the significance of the state
and I think probably more so adiminished understanding of the
(15:58):
role of the church in societyand the significance of the
gospel with its socialimplications.
And what I mean by that is we,rightly and when I say we, you
and I come from the sametheological tradition and so we
would say we would reject thesocial gospel.
We would say that the gospel weare saved.
You know the classic tense ofReformation grace alone, faith
(16:20):
alone through Christ alone, notby works, all that stuff.
And so we, rightfully, are verycareful not to say that
salvation comes through socialgood deeds.
Feeding the poor, caring forthe least, this is how one is
saved, amen.
(16:40):
So I reject the social gospel.
The problem is is that when, inour rejection of the social
gospel we forget, we buy intothis truncated gospel that says
it only has vertical spiritualimplications and it doesn't have
horizontal social implications,meaning, here's what I like to
(17:05):
tell people I reject the socialgospel and I believe with all my
heart that the gospel is social.
I believe in a gospel social,not a social gospel.
If you just flip the wordingsof that, then you're really on
to something of the evangelical.
(17:25):
Christian faith is anexclusively individualistic,
vertical relationship with Godwhere essentially the nature of
my faith is I go to church onSunday, I read the scriptures in
the morning, I maybe go to aBible study throughout the week,
I listen to Christian music andChristian podcasts and I do all
(17:47):
these Christian things in myown personal life and that is
the extent of what it means tobe a follower of Jesus.
That is such a truncated visionof the Christian life when you
really all of those things aretrue and this must overflow into
(18:10):
real social implications towardour neighbors and toward
society is woefully deficient inunderstanding how the gospel of
the kingdom is intended tochange the world around us.
(18:34):
But because they are Christianswith the Spirit of God inside
of them and they long to see thykingdom come, thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven,they long to see a world that
reflects the ways and will ofGod.
They know they want a differentworld, but they don't see how
(18:55):
them, as followers of Jesus, issupposed to be a means to that
different world.
They have to go somewhere withthose longings If the Christian
faith is just this individualrelationship with Jesus with no
social implications.
But I have this stirring insidethat I want social change to
reflect God's order.
Well then they say well, Iguess that's the state's role, I
(19:17):
guess the government issupposed to give me the world I
long to see.
And so I think it's probably afailure to comprehend and to
internalize and apply thesignificance of the gospel life
socially, that it is true thatwe are saved by grace alone,
(19:37):
through faith alone.
But we know we don't have tolike wonder.
We know explicitly fromscripture that when we stand
before the judgment of Christ,he is not going to say do you
have faith in me, do you believein me?
You know that old evangelisticquestion when you stand before
God, did you kind of?
Do you have a campus ministrybackground?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I came to faith through campus ministry.
Okay, okay.
So the classic evangelismquestion is when you stand
before God someday, how certainare you that he's going to let
you into heaven, or somethinglike that?
And it's trying to get you tothis like cognitive,
intellectual answer that says Ishouldn't come in, I only have
faith in Jesus, he's my onlyhope, all that stuff.
True, true, true, true, true.
But when we actually get Jesusdescribed that moment, he
(20:23):
doesn't ask why should I let youinto heaven?
For the right answer.
He doesn't ask why should I letyou into heaven?
For the right answer.
He doesn't ask do you havefaith in me?
He just simply says did youcare for the least of me?
And if you did, without evenknowing it, come on in.
And if you didn't, I'm sorry.
I know you say that you knew me, but I never knew you away from
me.
And it's this really terrifyingpassage of scripture that should
(20:45):
cause all of us to you know.
But the point of it is not thatwe're saved by feeding the poor
, visiting the prisoner, takingin the widowed and orphan,
clothing the naked, all thatstuff that shows up in the least
of these passages.
It's that Jesus knows myfollowers who have faith in me,
that is alive and active will bedoing all of these things.
(21:07):
They are bound to love forneighbor if they love me, and so
why are we talking about this?
I'm totally off the question.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
No keep going.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, my point is is when you take away that entire
part of the Christian faith andtradition candidly, this is how
the early church spread.
I mean, this is how the churchhas always advanced through its
love of neighbor.
When you take that entireimplication away from the
Christian faith, you're going toturn somewhere to make the
(21:38):
world a better place, and Ithink government is obviously
this alluring answer to thatquestion.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, I think that's reallyhelpful.
There's this, yeah, when youhave an impoverished gospel or a
truncated gospel, it's not thatit's untrue, it's just not the
whole truth.
And so because we're created byGod in the image of God and we
desire to see this world morelike its original design, then
(22:08):
if we have this view of what thechurch is, that's very narrow,
then insofar as the Holy Spiritis at work in us, we will turn
somewhere that we think it istheir responsibility.
And but in the desire to dothat, all sorts of cattywampus
things can happen.
No doubt about it.
And it reminds me of I mean, bythe way, that passage that you
(22:32):
raised there with Jesus.
It is confronting in the mostimportant and wonderful way and
haunting, and obviously the LordJesus says this.
And then it reminds me of JohnStott's helpful commentary on
the Sermon on the Mount, butparticularly salt and light, and
(22:54):
he said a number of helpfulthings about that.
But one thing that I rememberregularly in these conversations
is that oftentimes the churchhas taught and understood in
principle what it means to besalt, that is to say to preserve
culture by speaking the truth,and that's very important.
So evangelism would be theexample that you're saying, but
(23:16):
Stott also says.
He also says and light.
So Jesus says you are salt andlight, and light is this idea
Stott unpacks where we're notsatisfied with broken systems in
the world, we're not satisfiedwith those who are oppressed and
disadvantaged.
But actually the church beingsalt and light is both to speak
(23:38):
the truth, but also because youhave light in darkness, you
don't hide it, you actually goand you bless others with it,
which is much more than simplywhat you say.
It's also the life you live.
It's the life you live forothers, and the most beautiful
thing that we have so central toour tradition, as you said, is
that none of that is to securean identity for ourselves or to
(24:01):
work for an identity or a resume, but rather to work from this
reality that we've been maderight with God and we are now
sent into the world from thisidentity, from this new life and
this religious fervor.
I hear you saying, and I see itin the political conversation
(24:22):
right, and one of the reasons Ithink you're right is that
there's a division because of animpoverished gospel.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, even that passage you brought up and
that's brilliant.
I don't remember his wordsthere, but he's brilliant as
usual.
But even taking it further toyour point is right.
After salt and light, therefore, let your light so shine before
men that they may see your gooddeeds.
That's right.
Glory to the Father who is inheaven.
(25:03):
Grace alone, not by works ofthe law, really need a
compelling vision, for, okay,we're not saved by our works,
but what role do works playwithin the Christian salvation
and how important they areholding Paul and James together
and allowing that tension tocomplement each other, not to
(25:27):
oppose each other.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But bringing it back to political conversation, I do
think we have an impoverishedview of the state and scripture
and the Christian tradition.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Sorry, my dog's scratching herself and you can
hear her.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love it.
Yeah, of course I think we needto really understand what God
teaches us about the role of thestate in his world, but
probably even more so we need torecapture what the gospel
compels us to do.
Like you, take my work withChrist for Kentucky.
There are absolutely times whenwhat I want to see happen in
(26:06):
Kentucky intersects with therole of the state, and for that
I am not afraid to spend time inFrankfurt, our capitals of
Frankfurt.
To spend time in Frankfurt withstate legislators advocating
for policy that I think wouldbless the bluegrass.
I'm not afraid to do that whenI think this fits the role of
(26:26):
the state.
No-transcript what's going on.
(26:53):
And then the secular stuff Isaid, combined all of that with
this need to express ourreligion, and politics is an
easy place to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yes, All right.
So on that note, one of thethings that, as I've engaged
folks, sometimes they canrespond negatively.
When a pastor, for example,says well, you know, the
government's not your savior,Don't treat them like your
savior, right, and theirresponse is a little more like
(27:27):
pragmatism.
Pragmatic Like, well, listen,this is going to hell in a
handbasket.
So we got to do something.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
And what?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I love about it is that it's not an either or what
you just described.
It's a Christian vision.
It's a Christian vision.
And so with that, I'm going toask you so we've warned people
of the so-called governmentgospels and how we all can be
tempted there.
(27:56):
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Say that again.
You're saying how would Idisciple them on who to, were
you saying?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
who to vote for and how to vote.
That's a good clarification, orthe opposite of that?
No, yeah, I mean probably theopposite of that.
But particularly what I'mgetting at is that you have, as
you said, a positive vision, aChristian vision for engaging in
the world.
Of course, we're aware of thetemptations for government
(28:43):
gospels, as you said, but how?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
would you speak to Christians, particularly in how
they can grow their imaginationfor what it means to faithfully
engage civic responsibility fortheir neighbor?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, civic responsibility beyond the voting
booth is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, that's included , but even beyond the voting
booth Included, but that yourcivic duty goes beyond, every
four years, going into a bigmeeting, yes, yes, of Jamie
(29:25):
Smith or James K Smith's.
Well, he's resurrectingAugustine and his thoughts of
how we are creatures compelledby our loves.
But how is love formed?
It's not this internalintrospective trying to change
the desires of our heartsintrospectively, but that we
(29:49):
actually are changed through ourhabits, through our practices.
You are what you love, but whatyou love can be formed by what
you do, and so I say all that tosay I tell Christians, I tell
Christians, just by faith,through sacrificial love, give
(30:15):
it a try.
Find something in yourcommunity, find a problem in
your community that you can fix.
Find a neighbor in yourneighborhood that needs to be
loved.
Find a cause of justice thatresonates with you and get
behind it.
Just go, just start practicingthe kingdom and watch how it
(30:39):
becomes addicting, watch how youstart coming alive as a servant
of Jesus, making a differencein the world, and watch how
quickly the political theatricskind of fade away and you start
to get to see real changelocally and you really get
(31:00):
excited about it and you want todo more of it and I think so
much of it is.
We just never, by faith,sacrificially embracing the
inconveniences of love, stepoutside of our media echo
chambers enthralled in thispolitical stuff.
We never just shut it off andjust say I'm just going to get
busy, I'm just.
(31:21):
You know, me and my family arejust speaking personally.
Our family just said we've gota.
Our neighborhood is astereotypical middle-class
suburban neighborhood, but rightnext to our neighborhood is one
of the most impoverished areasof our city and with one of the
(31:42):
most under-resourced elementaryschools in our city, actually in
our state.
And we just said, as a family,we're, we're, we're coming
around that school, um, we're,we're going to serve that school
, we're going to get to knowthat school, we're going to find
out ways we can help thatschool.
That school is just going to beour outlet of Christian
activism.
(32:03):
I mean, my, my job is is greater, but I'm talking about my as a
father, husband.
I'm a family, that's our thing.
And you know, you get so busywith the causes of love, justice
and mercy that you kind offorget politics.
You don't have time.
You don't have time to beenthralled in social media
(32:26):
algorithms, because you're justout there making a difference,
and I just think this answer isso much more simple than a
sermon series and a podcastseries.
It's like hey, find somethingto do in your community, give it
a try.
Make mistakes, learn from themistakes.
Give neighbor love a try andwatch what happens.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Give neighbor love a try and watch what happens.
So good, so good.
I love that as a simple butrobust positive vision for how
Christians can engage in love.
Yeah, all right.
So one final question as wewrap up here, robert.
So I'm not going to say what isthe misconception, but if you
(33:09):
had to choose one that comes toyour mind as we think about
politics and engaging them asChristians, what do you think is
one misconception or pitfallthat you see Christians falling
into when it comes to trying toengage politics, and how would
you encourage them to thinkdifferently?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
encourage them to think differently.
Well, the big misconception,and the entire reason of that
podcast series I did would beeverything we've discussed so
far, but I don't want to justneglect that.
The biggest misconception isthe state is the final arbiter
of social change and that theonly hope we have of a new world
(33:53):
is a government gospel thatpromises we can fix the world if
you'll just trust us and giveus your allegiance.
So that's the big one.
So, outside the big one, Iwould say probably the biggest
misconception we're buying intoright now is as much as I
(34:16):
believe in that podcast seriesthat I just did and as much as I
believe that this is reallyharming our nation, the partisan
idolatry and deeply entrenchedum divide all that, I believe,
is true, uh, but it's probablytrue, it's probably most true
(34:38):
online and in social media.
I think the biggestmisconception is that our
neighbors, um, all around us,are enthralled in this in ways
that we are, but when they'reactually not.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's a good word, especially the working class,
that that you know this, I think, I think, uh, I think the
election that we just had as areferendum on how we view the
working class of America, whodon't have time for all the
political nonsense that we getwrapped up in they're just you
know they're working hard,they're trying to provide for
(35:10):
their uh, wrapped up in, they'rejust you know they're working
hard.
They're trying to provide fortheir, their families, they're,
they're, they're trying to makeit and they don't.
They just don't have time forthis.
And I, you know, candidly, Iknow we're not here to do
another podcast.
If you want to talk about theTrump phenomenon, but I think
that's a big part of it is is hemade them feel.
He made them feel they don'thave time for political theory,
(35:31):
but he made them feel seen andthere's a lot of power.
Did you see the?
I know you're trying to keepthese short.
Am I allowed?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
to look.
No, you're good, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Did you see the little McDonald's stunt that
Trump did?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I did and I heard him talk about it on a certain
podcast that he was on.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah.
So I thought there was a reallyinteresting line there.
They were coming through thedrive I mean, of course, all
those I'm not naive enough toknow All that was staged, I get
it, but they were coming throughand he was handing people their
food at the drive-thru and onelady said oh my gosh, you know,
it's so great to meet you.
I'm just an ordinary person.
(36:13):
He looked at her and saidyou're not ordinary.
You're not ordinary.
That is literally a quote fromCS Lewis.
I know Trump wasn't quoting CSLewis and I know, and I know I'm
not naive to trump here.
I, I know this is all politicaltheater, I get it.
I get it.
Whether he genuinely believesthat that are not.
(36:35):
He's a billionaire with now themost powerful man in the world,
I, you know.
Whether he truly believes thatshe, these aren't disordered
people, I don't know.
But he looked at her, gave hera cs lewis quote and said that
you know where, cs lewis, thereare no ordinary people.
There are no ordinary people.
He looked at her.
It's those ordinary people.
I think that we are missing EvenChristian evangelicals who
(36:59):
enjoy discussions like this.
We're missing ordinary peoplewho they're not going to listen
to this podcast, you know Ithink it's important for people
to listen to this podcast, but,but there are.
I would say, if you want todiscover the biggest political
misconception we have right now,it would be walk out your front
door, go next door, knock onthe door and get to know your
(37:21):
neighbor and you will see, um,you will see, uh, that there's a
lot going on with them beyonduh, who they voted for, and and
and, and.
You're going to listen to themand you're gonna learn from them
and you could, you know, maybeyou're, maybe your neighbor's a
Trump, huge Trump voter andsupporter and listen to them and
(37:42):
find out why and charitably,not just dismiss half our
country, as obviously you allare, all you know racist bigots
that's right.
If you voted for this man,actually listen to them and they
, maybe they're a huge DemocratHarris supporter, or whatever.
Listen to them and and and findout why.
(38:04):
But I just think.
I think we're missing eachother in real, in the real world
.
We're missing our neighborsbecause the algorithm of social
media has become our neighborand that's a neighbor that will
only love what we love, hatewhat we hate, believe what we
believe, reinforce all of it.
Get to know your real neighborsand you'll see how misguided
(38:30):
our politics truly are.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Well, I think we'll end there.
It's fantastic.
Thank you for that, robert.
I appreciate it and I'm goingto encourage people to go listen
to the whole series, where youthoughtfully unpack in 25 to 30
minutes each one of those pointsfrom Alexis's book.
Thank you for joining us.
great, robert, it's great to be with you.
Yeah, thanks for having me,thanks for joining us.
Uh, we this is actually goingto be the last resource that
we're releasing in a season thisyear, in 2024, where we started
in July with a sermon seriescalled Following Jesus in
Politics, and every fall we do aFollowing Jesus in series, and
(00:33):
this year it was politics, andso, in terms of timing, this is
just a couple of days after theelection, which wasn't the
original plan, but here we are,so that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, probably works out a little better.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Exactly, that's right .
One of the things that Iappreciate so much about your
podcast is public.
Theology is what you're afterand what you're doing, and, of
course, politics and governmentare a gift.
They're ordained by God, but ina fallen world it presents
unique challenges to navigate,but nevertheless, it's a gift
for the common good, and so, asyou think about that out loud on
(01:09):
your podcast, I've alwayslearned and recently you just
did a whole series on one of my,if not my favorite, book on
this topic by David Koitsis, andyou did the heavy lifting that
someone needed to do and I'm soglad you did it which was to
synthesize and elaborate on histhinking.
In fact, in 2020, I recommendedthat book to a handful of my
(01:30):
friends, and three of them inparticular.
They all three responded don'tever recommend this book to
anyone else because it's sodense.
Don't ever recommend this bookto anyone else.
And yet I'm honored that youthought that I would understand
it, which I just thought was sofunny.
So you did the heavy liftingthat I was unable to do, so
thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, that's what I love doing.
I'm not necessarily a smart guy, but I like to take smart
people and make it accessible tonormal people.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Well, you're really good at it, truly, and so let's
go ahead and jump in.
Yeah, all right.
So I mentioned David Coitus,and how you unpacked his
ideologies is what he calls themand you talk about how they
function as modern idols,essentially, and all of these
(02:20):
ideologies have their ownversion of salvation, as all
idol systems do, of course.
So here's the beginning.
Can you walk us through howthat works?
And particularly, the questionis how do ideologies go from
political theories, in this case, to something that competes for
our faith?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's so many things at play.
I think, first and foremost,what's taking place is that, you
know, as America increasinglygoes the way of Western society,
(02:59):
which becomes essentially apost-Christian secular age,
which becomes essentially apost-Christian secular age, what
Charles Taylor, who of coursehas done the most work in this
(03:20):
idea of secularity, what heargues is that the secular
project is unsustainable becausepeople are religious.
It's impossible not to bereligious.
To use the language that Kellerused a lot.
We're going to be worshipingsomething false gods, all that
stuff.
Expressions of religiondiminish as traditional
(03:45):
communities diminish, you know,neighborhoods and clubs and even
the workplace and so forth, asall of these places where we
used to find these religiousimpulses satisfied go away.
We have to find other places toexpress these.
We have to find other places toexpress these, and so what
(04:30):
you're seeing in our country haslost that balanced, communal
aspect and has become thisdeeply entrenched religion in
itself, and I just think that isbecause something has to fill
the void in our society asreligion decreases.
So I think, first and foremost,that is what's going on.
(04:52):
We have to be religious, we'retaking away religion, we're
going to find it somewhere, andpolitics is kind of low hanging
fruit for that for a variety ofreasons.
But yeah, so that politics,that, who are making that
obvious connection, that we'reelevating this thing way
(05:30):
disproportionately.
We're worshiping politics andpoliticians.
That's not a new take.
I think what sets Coyce'sscholarship apart is he goes
further, by going beyond theidea of, yeah, sure, we make an
idol of politics and politiciansand ideologies and political
theory and all that stuff.
And he goes further to say wedon't just make an idol of
(05:53):
something, which we do, but whatare we doing?
When we make an idol ofsomething, we are trusting in it
for a form of salvation?
What you worship, you are alsotrusting and I think that's what
sets his work apart is that weworship our politicians, we
(06:14):
worship our political theoriesand ideologies, we worship a
partisan political party orwhatnot, but even more so we're
trusting it that what we worshipoffers us a gospel of sorts.
And I think that's where Koizisis indispensable, where he kind
of fleshes out the different,not just idols of these
(06:35):
different ideologies, but thegospels, the plan of salvation
that they offer.
And so, yeah, I think it'sreally important scholarship,
but, like you said, it's prettydifficult to access.
So that's why I do it.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, it's so good.
I think one of the things thatis so powerful about it, and how
you brought it to a broaderaudience, is that understanding
the ideologies are helpful, butunderstanding what it means to
trust them is all the morehelpful Because I think that
(07:11):
some Christians that I've talkedto especially in this election
cycle but I think that this hasbeen true for a while now
because of the dynamics of asecularizing world that you
already mentioned is thatincreasingly of a secularizing
world that you already mentioned, is that increasingly, you have
Christians who are either sofed up and cynical that they
eject from thoughtful engagementor, increasingly, what I've
(07:34):
noticed is that you haveChristians that are also fed up
but, rather than rejecting incynicism, they move toward
engagement in a way that even intheir own lives they never have
before.
And so when I think about that,I think about there are various
ways in which that's true, andthere are several ideologies I
(07:57):
think it's five that you walkthrough those chapters of the
book and if you can rememberwhat they are, what are they.
You don't have to go into allof them if you don't want.
But what are they?
And here's the real question iscan you unpack.
What makes them in general socompelling that they almost
become new gospels.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, let me try.
(08:38):
Well, and that in itself is whyI also think Coyce's work is
important, because he saysthere's much infighting within
the Republican Party of what isconservatism, and you know
because, Trump is Trump aconservative, I mean, I guess,
but far more a populist, farmore a nationalist.
(09:11):
So you kind of got thatnationalist aspect of that.
And then what's really going onright now, post-election, is
fighting within the democratparty of trying to define what
it is we we actually believe andstand for and are going to be
moving forward it's just not assimple as democrat republican.
Yes so let me try to let me letme off the top of my head.
So the big one's liberalism, um, um, all of us are our
liberalism, not in the way wetend to use the word liberal,
which is just a progressivepolitical thought, but
(09:34):
liberalism in the classicliberal sense of Western society
which our country is based on.
So you've got classicliberalism, you have nationalism
, you have conservatism, youhave socialism.
And what's another ism I'mmissing?
You said five, yeah, you saidconservatism right.
(09:56):
Yeah, I said conservatism,liberalism, socialism, I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
It's so funny.
I thought, if I'm'm gonna askthat question, I should write
well, you would think if you'reinterviewing the guy who
actually recorded the podcastsand and read the stuff he'd
remember.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Dude, that's so long ago though, I know um.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, what do we see?
Marxism or socialism, socialismyeah, okay I don't remember
what he called it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I don't know.
I had to go back and look in mynotes what I covered, because
he actually has a chapter inthere I did not include and
maybe that's what you'rethinking about which is he made
up a word democratism.
Basically democracy, majorityrule is another ism, but I don't
(10:45):
know.
I did not include that for avariety of reasons, but I might
be missing one.
But anyway, that's okay, that'sgreat.
Let's go with those way that wehave subscribed to, with an
(11:07):
idolatrous religious fervorwhich then buys into a what I
call a government gospel, afalse gospel that each of those
isms promises.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know their own fall, their own redemptive story
their own.
The big one is their owneschatology their own.
This will finally set the worldfree.
If we just subscribe to thatideology to its rightful end and
get everybody to buy into itand submit to it.
(11:43):
That will save the world.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
That's right, it's so good, exactly, and he.
One of the things that's sopowerful about that is he aligns
each one of these isms in whatwe would call a four-chapter
narrative that the gospel, thiscreation, fall, redemption,
consummation but really we canthink about.
Everyone has a view and theseideologies are no different in a
way, things ought to be and howthey fell from that, what
(12:10):
redemption looks like and whatthey will be if that solution
actually comes about.
And it's and he does amasterful job of that.
I really loved how you calledon the government gospels.
It's just so true.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, it's so true, yeah, that, yeah, to be fair,
that's that.
That's something I just did.
That's he doesn't use thatlanguage.
To be fair, that's something Ijust.
He doesn't use that language, Ijust used that.
I just made that up tosummarize what he's getting at
with each of them.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, which is great.
I think it's the way Iexperienced it was not only did
you synthesize his work, but youelaborated on it in a creative
way, and that's an example ofhow you did it, and I think
people can really resonate withthat when they think about it.
All right, so one of the thingsthat you mentioned is
polarization, and polarizationhas a number of.
There's a number of reasons asto why, but when we think about
(12:58):
that, we talk about Koiz's ideaof political ideologies as
competing idols, that once wecommit to those, we now have
sides essentially.
Once we commit to those, we nowhave sides essentially.
And so I'm curious in yourseries, you highlighted how
these gospels, these governmentgospels, make us see political
opponents as heretics ratherthan as fellow humans, and that
(13:20):
was so powerful.
I remember where I was when Ilistened to that and I paused
the podcast and rewinded it.
I didn't rewind, I backed it up, and so I just thought it was
so helpful.
So what you said specificallyis that because there are
gospels, we can't just disagreewith people.
Essentially, they're hereticsbecause this is our religion.
Now.
And so here's my question is youcan elaborate on that if you'd
(13:42):
like, but how can Christiansresist this urge?
I mean, how can we resist it,especially when we were
surrounded by echo chambers,partisan media and all the like?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, so many answers .
I mean the obvious answer is torenounce the idol and reorient
ourselves to the kingdom of God.
That's the easy answer, which Idon't want to just like do the
obligatory spiritual nod toward.
I do think our own repentanceand worship would be step one,
(14:21):
but I do think that part of itis a categorical error of not
understanding, or maybe atheological error of just not
understanding, the ordained roleof the state and our, and then
(14:42):
maybe so I think let me get offthe state first because, yes, I
think actually doing someresearch into the scriptures,
the Christian tradition and howthey have had crazy opinions
(15:06):
about the state throughout itshistory, but actually studying
the scriptures and Christianthought tradition about what is
the role of the state in God'sworld is important because we're
so disproportionate in ourtrust in the coercive power of
(15:27):
the state.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I do think that is .
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But let me give a better answer.
I think it's probably less anoveremphasis and
disproportionate understandingof the significance of the state
and I think probably more so adiminished understanding of the
(15:58):
role of the church in societyand the significance of the
gospel with its socialimplications.
And what I mean by that is we,rightly and when I say we, you
and I come from the sametheological tradition and so we
would say we would reject thesocial gospel.
We would say that the gospel weare saved.
You know the classic tense ofReformation grace alone, faith
(16:20):
alone through Christ alone, notby works, all that stuff.
And so we, rightfully, are verycareful not to say that
salvation comes through socialgood deeds.
Feeding the poor, caring forthe least, this is how one is
saved, amen.
(16:40):
So I reject the social gospel.
The problem is is that when, inour rejection of the social
gospel we forget, we buy intothis truncated gospel that says
it only has vertical spiritualimplications and it doesn't have
horizontal social implications,meaning, here's what I like to
(17:05):
tell people I reject the socialgospel and I believe with all my
heart that the gospel is social.
I believe in a gospel social,not a social gospel.
If you just flip the wordingsof that, then you're really on
to something of the evangelical.
(17:25):
Christian faith is anexclusively individualistic,
vertical relationship with Godwhere essentially the nature of
my faith is I go to church onSunday, I read the scriptures in
the morning, I maybe go to aBible study throughout the week,
I listen to Christian music andChristian podcasts and I do all
(17:47):
these Christian things in myown personal life and that is
the extent of what it means tobe a follower of Jesus.
That is such a truncated visionof the Christian life when you
really all of those things aretrue and this must overflow into
(18:10):
real social implications towardour neighbors and toward
society is woefully deficient inunderstanding how the gospel of
the kingdom is intended tochange the world around us.
(18:34):
But because they are Christianswith the Spirit of God inside
of them and they long to see thykingdom come, thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven,they long to see a world that
reflects the ways and will ofGod.
They know they want a differentworld, but they don't see how
(18:55):
them, as followers of Jesus, issupposed to be a means to that
different world.
They have to go somewhere withthose longings If the Christian
faith is just this individualrelationship with Jesus with no
social implications.
But I have this stirring insidethat I want social change to
reflect God's order.
Well then they say well, Iguess that's the state's role, I
(19:17):
guess the government issupposed to give me the world I
long to see.
And so I think it's probably afailure to comprehend and to
internalize and apply thesignificance of the gospel life
socially, that it is true thatwe are saved by grace alone,
(19:37):
through faith alone.
But we know we don't have tolike wonder.
We know explicitly fromscripture that when we stand
before the judgment of Christ,he is not going to say do you
have faith in me, do you believein me?
You know that old evangelisticquestion when you stand before
God, did you kind of?
Do you have a campus ministrybackground?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I came to faith through campus ministry.
Okay, okay.
So the classic evangelismquestion is when you stand
before God someday, how certainare you that he's going to let
you into heaven, or somethinglike that?
And it's trying to get you tothis like cognitive,
intellectual answer that says Ishouldn't come in, I only have
faith in Jesus, he's my onlyhope, all that stuff.
True, true, true, true, true.
But when we actually get Jesusdescribed that moment, he
(20:23):
doesn't ask why should I let youinto heaven?
For the right answer.
He doesn't ask why should I letyou into heaven?
For the right answer.
He doesn't ask do you havefaith in me?
He just simply says did youcare for the least of me?
And if you did, without evenknowing it, come on in.
And if you didn't, I'm sorry.
I know you say that you knew me, but I never knew you away from
me.
And it's this really terrifyingpassage of scripture that should
(20:45):
cause all of us to you know.
But the point of it is not thatwe're saved by feeding the poor
, visiting the prisoner, takingin the widowed and orphan,
clothing the naked, all thatstuff that shows up in the least
of these passages.
It's that Jesus knows myfollowers who have faith in me,
that is alive and active will bedoing all of these things.
(21:07):
They are bound to love forneighbor if they love me, and so
why are we talking about this?
I'm totally off the question.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
No keep going.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, my point is is when you take away that entire
part of the Christian faith andtradition candidly, this is how
the early church spread.
I mean, this is how the churchhas always advanced through its
love of neighbor.
When you take that entireimplication away from the
Christian faith, you're going toturn somewhere to make the
(21:38):
world a better place, and Ithink government is obviously
this alluring answer to thatquestion.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, I think that's reallyhelpful.
There's this, yeah, when youhave an impoverished gospel or a
truncated gospel, it's not thatit's untrue, it's just not the
whole truth.
And so because we're created byGod in the image of God and we
desire to see this world morelike its original design, then
(22:08):
if we have this view of what thechurch is, that's very narrow,
then insofar as the Holy Spiritis at work in us, we will turn
somewhere that we think it istheir responsibility.
And but in the desire to dothat, all sorts of cattywampus
things can happen.
No doubt about it.
And it reminds me of I mean, bythe way, that passage that you
(22:32):
raised there with Jesus.
It is confronting in the mostimportant and wonderful way and
haunting, and obviously the LordJesus says this.
And then it reminds me of JohnStott's helpful commentary on
the Sermon on the Mount, butparticularly salt and light, and
(22:54):
he said a number of helpfulthings about that.
But one thing that I rememberregularly in these conversations
is that oftentimes the churchhas taught and understood in
principle what it means to besalt, that is to say to preserve
culture by speaking the truth,and that's very important.
So evangelism would be theexample that you're saying, but
(23:16):
Stott also says.
He also says and light.
So Jesus says you are salt andlight, and light is this idea
Stott unpacks where we're notsatisfied with broken systems in
the world, we're not satisfiedwith those who are oppressed and
disadvantaged.
But actually the church beingsalt and light is both to speak
(23:38):
the truth, but also because youhave light in darkness, you
don't hide it, you actually goand you bless others with it,
which is much more than simplywhat you say.
It's also the life you live.
It's the life you live forothers, and the most beautiful
thing that we have so central toour tradition, as you said, is
that none of that is to securean identity for ourselves or to
(24:01):
work for an identity or a resume, but rather to work from this
reality that we've been maderight with God and we are now
sent into the world from thisidentity, from this new life and
this religious fervor.
I hear you saying, and I see itin the political conversation
(24:22):
right, and one of the reasons Ithink you're right is that
there's a division because of animpoverished gospel.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, even that passage you brought up and
that's brilliant.
I don't remember his wordsthere, but he's brilliant as
usual.
But even taking it further toyour point is right.
After salt and light, therefore, let your light so shine before
men that they may see your gooddeeds.
That's right.
Glory to the Father who is inheaven.
(25:03):
Grace alone, not by works ofthe law, really need a
compelling vision, for, okay,we're not saved by our works,
but what role do works playwithin the Christian salvation
and how important they areholding Paul and James together
and allowing that tension tocomplement each other, not to
(25:27):
oppose each other.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But bringing it back to political conversation, I do
think we have an impoverishedview of the state and scripture
and the Christian tradition.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Sorry, my dog's scratching herself and you can
hear her.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I love it.
Yeah, of course I think we needto really understand what God
teaches us about the role of thestate in his world, but
probably even more so we need torecapture what the gospel
compels us to do.
Like you, take my work withChrist for Kentucky.
There are absolutely times whenwhat I want to see happen in
(26:06):
Kentucky intersects with therole of the state, and for that
I am not afraid to spend time inFrankfurt, our capitals of
Frankfurt.
To spend time in Frankfurt withstate legislators advocating
for policy that I think wouldbless the bluegrass.
I'm not afraid to do that whenI think this fits the role of
(26:26):
the state.
No-transcript what's going on.
(26:53):
And then the secular stuff Isaid, combined all of that with
this need to express ourreligion, and politics is an
easy place to do that.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yes, All right.
So on that note, one of thethings that, as I've engaged
folks, sometimes they canrespond negatively.
When a pastor, for example,says well, you know, the
government's not your savior,Don't treat them like your
savior, right, and theirresponse is a little more like
(27:27):
pragmatism.
Pragmatic Like, well, listen,this is going to hell in a
handbasket.
So we got to do something.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
And what?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I love about it is that it's not an either or what
you just described.
It's a Christian vision.
It's a Christian vision.
And so with that, I'm going toask you so we've warned people
of the so-called governmentgospels and how we all can be
tempted there.
(27:56):
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Say that again.
You're saying how would Idisciple them on who to, were
you saying?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
who to vote for and how to vote.
That's a good clarification, orthe opposite of that?
No, yeah, I mean probably theopposite of that.
But particularly what I'mgetting at is that you have, as
you said, a positive vision, aChristian vision for engaging in
the world.
Of course, we're aware of thetemptations for government
(28:43):
gospels, as you said, but how?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
would you speak to Christians, particularly in how
they can grow their imaginationfor what it means to faithfully
engage civic responsibility fortheir neighbor?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, civic responsibility beyond the voting
booth is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, that's included , but even beyond the voting
booth Included, but that yourcivic duty goes beyond, every
four years, going into a bigmeeting, yes, yes, of Jamie
(29:25):
Smith or James K Smith's.
Well, he's resurrectingAugustine and his thoughts of
how we are creatures compelledby our loves.
But how is love formed?
It's not this internalintrospective trying to change
the desires of our heartsintrospectively, but that we
(29:49):
actually are changed through ourhabits, through our practices.
You are what you love, but whatyou love can be formed by what
you do, and so I say all that tosay I tell Christians, I tell
Christians, just by faith,through sacrificial love, give
(30:15):
it a try.
Find something in yourcommunity, find a problem in
your community that you can fix.
Find a neighbor in yourneighborhood that needs to be
loved.
Find a cause of justice thatresonates with you and get
behind it.
Just go, just start practicingthe kingdom and watch how it
(30:39):
becomes addicting, watch how youstart coming alive as a servant
of Jesus, making a differencein the world, and watch how
quickly the political theatricskind of fade away and you start
to get to see real changelocally and you really get
(31:00):
excited about it and you want todo more of it and I think so
much of it is.
We just never, by faith,sacrificially embracing the
inconveniences of love, stepoutside of our media echo
chambers enthralled in thispolitical stuff.
We never just shut it off andjust say I'm just going to get
busy, I'm just.
(31:21):
You know, me and my family arejust speaking personally.
Our family just said we've gota.
Our neighborhood is astereotypical middle-class
suburban neighborhood, but rightnext to our neighborhood is one
of the most impoverished areasof our city and with one of the
(31:42):
most under-resourced elementaryschools in our city, actually in
our state.
And we just said, as a family,we're, we're, we're coming
around that school, um, we're,we're going to serve that school
, we're going to get to knowthat school, we're going to find
out ways we can help thatschool.
That school is just going to beour outlet of Christian
activism.
(32:03):
I mean, my, my job is is greater, but I'm talking about my as a
father, husband.
I'm a family, that's our thing.
And you know, you get so busywith the causes of love, justice
and mercy that you kind offorget politics.
You don't have time.
You don't have time to beenthralled in social media
(32:26):
algorithms, because you're justout there making a difference,
and I just think this answer isso much more simple than a
sermon series and a podcastseries.
It's like hey, find somethingto do in your community, give it
a try.
Make mistakes, learn from themistakes.
Give neighbor love a try andwatch what happens.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Give neighbor love a try and watch what happens.
So good, so good.
I love that as a simple butrobust positive vision for how
Christians can engage in love.
Yeah, all right.
So one final question as wewrap up here, robert.
So I'm not going to say what isthe misconception, but if you
(33:09):
had to choose one that comes toyour mind as we think about
politics and engaging them asChristians, what do you think is
one misconception or pitfallthat you see Christians falling
into when it comes to trying toengage politics, and how would
you encourage them to thinkdifferently?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
encourage them to think differently.
Well, the big misconception,and the entire reason of that
podcast series I did would beeverything we've discussed so
far, but I don't want to justneglect that.
The biggest misconception isthe state is the final arbiter
of social change and that theonly hope we have of a new world
(33:53):
is a government gospel thatpromises we can fix the world if
you'll just trust us and giveus your allegiance.
So that's the big one.
So, outside the big one, Iwould say probably the biggest
misconception we're buying intoright now is as much as I
(34:16):
believe in that podcast seriesthat I just did and as much as I
believe that this is reallyharming our nation, the partisan
idolatry and deeply entrenchedum divide all that, I believe,
is true, uh, but it's probablytrue, it's probably most true
(34:38):
online and in social media.
I think the biggestmisconception is that our
neighbors, um, all around us,are enthralled in this in ways
that we are, but when they'reactually not.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's a good word, especially the working class,
that that you know this, I think, I think, uh, I think the
election that we just had as areferendum on how we view the
working class of America, whodon't have time for all the
political nonsense that we getwrapped up in they're just you
know they're working hard,they're trying to provide for
(35:10):
their uh, wrapped up in, they'rejust you know they're working
hard.
They're trying to provide fortheir, their families, they're,
they're, they're trying to makeit and they don't.
They just don't have time forthis.
And I, you know, candidly, Iknow we're not here to do
another podcast.
If you want to talk about theTrump phenomenon, but I think
that's a big part of it is is hemade them feel.
He made them feel they don'thave time for political theory,
(35:31):
but he made them feel seen andthere's a lot of power.
Did you see the?
I know you're trying to keepthese short.
Am I allowed?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
to look.
No, you're good, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Did you see the little McDonald's stunt that
Trump did?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I did and I heard him talk about it on a certain
podcast that he was on.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah.
So I thought there was a reallyinteresting line there.
They were coming through thedrive I mean, of course, all
those I'm not naive enough toknow All that was staged, I get
it, but they were coming throughand he was handing people their
food at the drive-thru and onelady said oh my gosh, you know,
it's so great to meet you.
I'm just an ordinary person.
(36:13):
He looked at her and saidyou're not ordinary.
You're not ordinary.
That is literally a quote fromCS Lewis.
I know Trump wasn't quoting CSLewis and I know, and I know I'm
not naive to trump here.
I, I know this is all politicaltheater, I get it.
I get it.
Whether he genuinely believesthat that are not.
(36:35):
He's a billionaire with now themost powerful man in the world,
I, you know.
Whether he truly believes thatshe, these aren't disordered
people, I don't know.
But he looked at her, gave hera cs lewis quote and said that
you know where, cs lewis, thereare no ordinary people.
There are no ordinary people.
He looked at her.
It's those ordinary people.
I think that we are missing EvenChristian evangelicals who
(36:59):
enjoy discussions like this.
We're missing ordinary peoplewho they're not going to listen
to this podcast, you know Ithink it's important for people
to listen to this podcast, but,but there are.
I would say, if you want todiscover the biggest political
misconception we have right now,it would be walk out your front
door, go next door, knock onthe door and get to know your
(37:21):
neighbor and you will see, um,you will see, uh, that there's a
lot going on with them beyonduh, who they voted for, and and
and, and.
You're going to listen to themand you're gonna learn from them
and you could, you know, maybeyou're, maybe your neighbor's a
Trump, huge Trump voter andsupporter and listen to them and
(37:42):
find out why and charitably,not just dismiss half our
country, as obviously you allare, all you know racist bigots
that's right.
If you voted for this man,actually listen to them and they
, maybe they're a huge DemocratHarris supporter, or whatever.
Listen to them and and and findout why.
(38:04):
But I just think.
I think we're missing eachother in real, in the real world
.
We're missing our neighborsbecause the algorithm of social
media has become our neighborand that's a neighbor that will
only love what we love, hatewhat we hate, believe what we
believe, reinforce all of it.
Get to know your real neighborsand you'll see how misguided
(38:30):
our politics truly are.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Well, I think we'll end there.
It's fantastic.
Thank you for that, robert.
I appreciate it and I'm goingto encourage people to go listen
to the whole series, where youthoughtfully unpack in 25 to 30
minutes each one of those pointsfrom Alexis's book.
Thank you for joining us.
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