February 25, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode, Nate Claiborne and Michael Allen continue their deep dive into the book of Hebrews, focusing on its rich connections to the Old Testament. They explore how Hebrews serves as a bridge between the two testaments, highlighting the importance of cross-references in understanding the text. The hosts explain that nearly a quarter of the New Testament consists of direct quotes or allusions to the Old Testament, making tools like cross-references essential for fully grasping the depth of the message. They liken these references to musical samples or cinematic homages—elements that gain significance when the audience recognizes their original context.
The discussion also touches on how Hebrews presents Jesus as the fulfillment and superior figure over Old Testament leaders, priests, and prophets, particularly emphasizing His role as the ultimate high priest and final sacrifice for sin. Beyond this, the hosts point out Hebrews' dual use of the Old Testament: it not only highlights Christ’s superiority but also offers examples of faithful living through figures like Abraham, Sarah, and Noah. They stress that these stories serve as models for Christians today, encouraging perseverance in faith. As the conversation unfolds, they also hint at future episodes that will tie these lessons from Hebrews into the church’s upcoming study of the book of Numbers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, MichaelKronenberg, and once again I'm
here with.
Michael Allen.
How are we doing?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Mike, I'm doing great .
Glad to be talking with youtoday.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I know this is our much promised.
We mentioned it last time wewere together that we were going
to be recording again, and nowhere we are.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Folks have been waiting on it.
I hope they have, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, I mean for one thing the All of Life podcast.
We were kind of on hiatus alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But the day has come.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We're back weekly episodes.
So, man, so here we are.
Yeah, we're into the monthwhere, you know, we're getting
more and more comfortable withHebrews.
You know, we talked a lot aboutsome of the context and ways of
appreciating it last time wewere together, and today we're
going to do a little bit more ofa deep dive on the connections
between Hebrews and the OldTestament, particularly as it
(01:01):
helps us read the Old Testament,and you were talking last time
about cross-references, so wewant to just double-click on
that a little bit, just makesure that it's clear what we're
talking about there.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, so the New Testament, roughly 22% 25% of it
, depending on quite how youcount are words, phrases and
sentences taken from the OldTestament.
That's a massive amount,whether it's overtly quoting or
it's more subtly alluding toScripture before.
(01:34):
And one way most Bibles whetheryou're looking at it digitally
or you're looking at a hard copyin front of you they're going
to help clue you into that isthat they're going to have an
apparatus on the page.
In many it'll be a centralcolumn, perhaps between two
(01:55):
larger columns of text, orperhaps you have one column of
text that's larger and there aremarginal notes to various
scriptures along the side, orperhaps it's all down at the
bottom of the page likefootnotes and there are marginal
notes to various scripturesalong the side, or perhaps it's
all down at the bottom of thepage like footnotes.
There are different ways thisoccurs and, of course, often
(02:15):
digitally.
It's going to be something youhover over, that's a marker, and
suddenly it appears on thescreen.
In any event, whichever form itis, those are gifts because,
like me, I assume most othersdon't have the entirety of the
Old Testament memorized.
Not yet at least, Even if youdid, you wouldn't immediately
recognize the random phrase orline, even if you did know it
(02:39):
right.
So we're all at a disadvantagein that regard.
We don't have it all memorizedand we wouldn't recognize it all
even if we did, and so we'vegot the gift of folks who've
done hard work and they'vepresented it to us there that,
as we're working through Hebrews1, we will hit a range of
references and we can beprompted to look back to this
(03:01):
text, to that chapter, andthey're like hyperlinks.
Whereas you're surfing here,you find something that's
adjacent and related there.
That doesn't mean everything isequally significant and
identically important, but itdoes give you the range of
(03:23):
relevant resources or texts thatare going to be important to
understand what's going on, andso making sure you've got a
Bible that you read that hasthat before you is really
important.
You may read another Biblewithout cross-references just to
read quickly or to meditate,but when you want to actually be
(03:48):
able to glean and think andstudy and learn,
cross-references are about asimportant as anything.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah Well, I mean, I'm a big fan of the reader
editions of the Bibles whereit's getting it closer to the
way a normal book looks, whereit's just text and chapter
headings, and I think those arereally great for devotional
reading, meditation, moving fromreading to prayer.
But, like you say, if you'retrying to study, which is really
a different mode of engagingscripture, you want those
(04:17):
cross-references Because, amongother things, as we were talking
a little bit before we recorded, it lets you into the
equivalent of an inside joke.
It before we recorded it letsyou into the equivalent of an
inside joke.
Like there are things beingsaid that if you don't know the
context for it's like, well, Ican kind of make sense of the
words on the page, but maybethere's a deeper meaning to what
it is, because it's referringback to something I wasn't
around for.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yep, yeah, I mean probably, like me, many people
have lived in a bunch ofdifferent cities over the course
of their lives.
I think I'm in number seven nowwhere.
I've been for multiple years andthat means most of us, unless
we stay in one place with onetribe.
We've gotten familiar to thefeeling of meeting a new group
of people, being welcomed buteven realizing however welcoming
(05:00):
and hospitable they are.
There are going to be pointswhere they use a phrase or they
refer to some term and it's notmeant to be secret, but it is an
inner reference to which you'renot yet privy and you've got to
ask or they've got to offer, orthere's going to be some
element of depth that you'rejust missing.
(05:21):
You might catch that.
Clearly it was a funnyreference or a serious and grave
one.
You can catch the affect, butyou don't know anything about
what's prompting that.
All of us know that feelingwhich makes us feel like I'm
here but I'm not fully here.
I'm tracking but I know I'mmissing something I might
(05:42):
further track.
That's what it's like to readHebrews without an awareness of
those scriptural hyperlinks,those cross-references, the
earlier scriptures of the OldTestament that it's working with
, and so the more we can getfamiliarity there, the more we
can appreciate and track withthe fuller richness and beauty
(06:04):
of exactly what it's doing.
What it's saying is still thecase and where it's saying some
things are now new and distinct.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, because Hebrews really is.
I think we mentioned this lasttime when we were talking about.
Just If you can just look atthe text, even without these
cross-references, you're seeing,depending on how your text is
formatted, all of these obviousquotes from the Old Testament.
And you brought up the when wewere talking before.
It's like music samples.
It's like, yeah, I kind ofrecognize that riff.
(06:34):
Oh, that's because it's fromthis song in the 60s and this
hip-hop artist has sampled it.
He's taken a piece of it andmade it part of a new song, and
his new song is maybe betterthan the old thing, but it's
doing something different thanthe old thing, but it's still in
continuity with it because it'swoven in this piece of an older
song into the newer song.
(06:54):
And the author of Hebrews isdoing that all sorts of Old
Testament text, weaving theminto his argument, making
something new.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
We experience that often in terms of sampling and
worship I mean a number of thesongs we regularly sing are
taking classic hymns, resettingthem obviously with new
instrumentation, new arrangement, but also often with new
refrains or adapting languagefor various reasons.
(07:25):
Either it likely wouldn'tcommunicate or be understood, or
it's being merged or combinedwith some other statement.
We encounter this all the time,not just in pop culture, hip
hop music, but even in the kindof hymns and songs that we sing
together in church.
(07:46):
And there's something too folkswho know the older hymn can see
what new emphasis is beinggiven when it's slightly adapted
or rearranged Right.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And just to underscore something you said
earlier, it's not that Hebrewsis an anomaly in the New
Testament, in that Paul is justwhen he's writing.
He's just coming up with stuffon the spot.
He's doing a lot of this too.
What we're trying to underscore, what we're trying to emphasize
, is that Hebrews is doing it ina more intensive way than other
(08:17):
epistles, the Gospels.
Matthew is doing a lot ofreference back to the Old
Testament, but not quite in thesame degree as the author of
Hebrews is.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, totally.
The prophets of the OldTestament do this.
They don't make up stuff.
When they challenge the peoplein their sin, they go to the law
, the Pentateuch, jesus ifanyone could have just said what
he thought, it's the incarnateSon of God.
But Jesus instills this idea ofteaching by means of using the
Torah that came before him,learning from him Paul, peter,
(08:50):
all the others this is acrossthe New Testament.
Hebrews, along with Matthew andJohn's account of the gospel.
They're the most intenseversions, and probably Hebrews
more than any other, and so ifwe can learn how to pay
attention to this feature here,it's going to help us as we read
(09:10):
across and listen to thepreaching on the rest of the New
Testament.
Another way to think about it isto say, of course, the whole
Word of God is given by God tobuild us up, to form us.
At the same time, there aresome parts of the Bible, certain
books, that are like centralhubs, so directly connected to
(09:32):
so many others that when youknow them and you know how to
navigate them, they help you notonly grasp what they say, but
they help you know how to graspwhat others say.
Haggai is written for your good.
It's the inspired Word of God,it plays a distinct and crucial
role.
Deuteronomy is not only that,but it is so connected to so
(09:55):
many other parts of the Biblethat knowing how Deuteronomy
works opens a lot of other doors, which Haggai itself doesn't.
Hebrews is like that.
Like Deuteronomy, like someother central books, many of
which that we've studied Genesis, romans, etc.
It not only gives you oneremarkable witness, but because
(10:17):
it is so directly tied to theteaching of others, especially
the Old Testament, it helps youknow how to hear them
appropriately too.
So it really repays study andit really repays attentive
listening and reading to thatlevel of its communication, how
it's drawing on and developingearlier teaching, earlier
(10:41):
scripture.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Right, right, and so we.
I probably don't want to go toodeep in the weeds in this, but
I know some of the argumentsaround Hebrews was that it
originally was a sermon and evenif it's not totally that we do
want to remember.
These letters in the NewTestament were originally mainly
heard in corporate worship andwere digested, internalized,
(11:05):
meditated upon in that way.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And that's a setting in which we want to be alert to
the ways it uses the OldTestament you mentioned.
There are some spots where itquotes things at length, where
there's an indentation.
For instance, you know,jeremiah 31, 31 to 34, a whole
paragraph gets quoted by thetime we're seven, eight chapters
(11:29):
in and it gets quoted and thenit gets discussed and explained
or interpreted to us.
That's a formal quotation ofsignificant length.
And there are other formalquotations where your text will
surely put it in quotation marks, it'll perhaps indent and so
forth.
But there's a lot of other spotswhere, as with any sermon,
(11:54):
someone is not saying you know,here's what Jeremiah says in
chapter 31, but they simply usea word or phrase or oftentimes a
range of words and phrases froman earlier scripture, and we
see this too in Hebrews.
Oftentimes it's alluding to apassage or a set of passages,
(12:16):
even when it never exactlyquotes it at any length.
So we want to be alert to twokinds of ways the Old Testament
comes up that formal quotation,which is more obvious, and, on
the nose, the more subtleallusion, which is also really
important.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, those make me think of the way a lot of movies
work where a director wants todo an homage to a director that
was influential to him,important yeah, those make me
think of the way a lot of movieswork where there's, you know, a
director wants to do an homageto a director that was
influential to him, and sothere'll be a scene in his movie
it's not a sample, so he's notdoing what the musician's doing
where he straight up takes apiece of the old song and puts
it in a new song, but he does ascene where some of the way the
(12:55):
characters are interacting orthe props, it suggests the
classic one.
I don't have a ton of greatexamples, but if anyone's seen
the Godfather, there's the horsehead that ends up in the bed.
I'm not going to explain allthe context for it, but you know
there's an episode of ModernFamily where, you know, a
stuffed toy horse head ends upin somebody's bed and it's you
know.
You have to know that it'sreferring back to this movie,
(13:17):
otherwise it's not quite asfunny and it's kind of a little
weird and off-putting, even Yep,and we all communicate in those
ways regularly, in our ownintentional and thought-out ways
and oftentimes intuitive andspontaneous ways.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So we want to be alert to that.
We also want to be alert toHebrews uses the Old Testament
really to two different effects.
Right.
Oftentimes people interpretingHebrews talk about how it's a
Christ-centered vision of theOld Testament.
That's true, but to catch thatwe need to appreciate the full
(13:56):
range of what Christ-centeredmeans.
To catch that we need toappreciate the full range of
what Christ-centered means.
On the one hand, and mostobviously, hebrews talks about
the way Jesus is greater orsuperior than a number of major
figures from the Old TestamentMoses or the law, the angels,
the high priests, etc.
You have these great, valuedfigures central to the religion
(14:20):
of the Israelites, commanded andblessed by God.
Hebrews doesn't dismiss them.
None of them get bashed,they're not dissed, they're not
challenged, they're simplyrelativized.
Jesus is greater than each ofthem, which presumes they are
each good, they're a goodprovision of God, but Jesus is
the fulfillment or the greaterinstantiation of each.
(14:42):
Most fully.
Of course, hebrews chapter 5 allthe way through Hebrews chapter
10 are one long argument thatJesus is the great high priest
and the great sacrifice, andwhile we continue to give
sacrifices of thanksgiving andpraise, he has completed or
fulfilled the need forsacrifices for sin and guilt,
(15:06):
and that's the most blunt andextended and rich argument for
him fulfilling that need forblood as an offering in the
place of sin and guilt.
That's why you ought not goback to synagogue worship or
temple worship.
That's why you ought to remainon the Christian way.
(15:27):
That's why you ought to keeprunning the race set before you.
That's central to the mainpoint of Hebrews, and that's one
of these profound examples ofJesus as the greater and final
character in a long train thatran through the Old Testament,
whether it's a prophet, a priest, a king, a leader, etc.
(15:48):
That's not the only way Hebrewstalks about the Old Testament,
though, and it's pretty amazing.
Right after that long argumentfrom chapter 5 through 10,
hebrews 11 sounds very different, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Which we're going to be spending.
I think we're spending themonth of May.
Maybe we're going to lingerthere for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And Hebrews 11, and then parts of 12 and 13,.
They look to the Old Testamentand they Especially chapter
looks at so many differentstories very briefly with one
thing in mind how, by faith,so-and-so did such-and-such.
They do lots of differentthings.
They build boats, they letspies into the city, they do a
(16:29):
range of verbs or actions, butin every case Hebrews is drawing
out they're living by faith.
And it does so because we,looking to that great cloud of
witnesses that surrounds us,we're to run the race up before
us.
We're to imitate notnecessarily their boat building
or letting spies into the city,not the particular action per se
(16:52):
, but the faith that motivatestheir living.
We're to live likewise by faith, and here we've got use of the
Old Testament as a set ofexamples.
So we often talk at New Cityabout how we're called not just
to make disciples, but discipleswho make disciples.
(17:14):
Yes, the generational yeah andthat means we need to be ready
to say follow me as I followChrist.
And we're not the first peopleto think that or experience that
, of course.
And Hebrews models this idea ofhow we can look back, and it
goes all the way back to Genesis, to Noah, to Enoch, to Abram
and Sarah and so forth.
(17:35):
We can see there are people whohave been models of imitation.
They're sinners, they havesometimes pretty flagrant
screw-ups that Scripture willeven talk about at times, but
they're also models of faith andwe're called not to model or
imitate their idiosyncrasies butto run the race set before us
(17:56):
in a way that likewise lives byfaith, but to run the race set
before us in a way that likewiselives by faith.
And so Hebrews does present theOld Testament, so we see Jesus
fulfilling things as thegreatest and superior version of
it.
Hebrews also uses the OldTestament to model Christian
living by faith as we followAbram, Sarah, Rahab, Noah and so
(18:22):
forth, Even the innumerableanonymous persons who,
nonetheless, which even getmentioned, which do get
mentioned and do play a role,even if they have no fame and no
grandiosity in the wider sphere, and Hebrews itself tells us
(18:43):
those examples from the OldTestament are models for more
recent things.
Chapter 12 turns to Jesus.
He's not just one who, by faith, did one thing, he's the author
and perfecter of faith and he,for the joy set before him,
endured the cross, despising itsshame.
He's the ultimate and onlysinless example of faith.
And then chapter 13 saysremember your leaders, those who
(19:05):
taught you the word of God.
Consider the outcome of theirway of life and imitate their
faith.
Jesus Christ is the sameyesterday, today and forever,
Because Jesus, the object offaith, doesn't change.
I can look to my pastors andteachers and parents and elder
friends who've modeled faith forme and again, I'm not going to
(19:26):
imitate everything about them,but I'm going to observe how
they live by faith in that Jesusand knowing Jesus doesn't
change.
I can now remember and imitatethat faith in my own life and
try and model it for my kids,friends and others.
I might disciple.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, well, and that exemplary way of reading that
you're highlighting here.
You know, in our McShane Biblereading plan we've just been in,
we've been in a variety oftexts, but a lot of us have been
in 1 Corinthians, and 1Corinthians 10 is one of those
texts that is pointing us backto things from the Old Testament
that are, you know, paul's veryexplicit.
(20:02):
These were written as examplesfor us and the text that he's
it's a little ironic I think wemay have mentioned this on
podcast before.
The text that he's talkingabout are in Numbers, which is
where most Bible reading plans,if they didn't die.
In Leviticus they die in thewilderness in Numbers.
But that's where we're going tobe this fall, and so there's
some continuity we've alluded toit a few times of being in
(20:24):
Hebrews.
The way that we're going to beexperiencing it this spring is
kind of a setup for the waywe're going to spend time in
numbers in the fall.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, and that's the one big negative example.
In Hebrews, Chapter 11 and 12and 13 give you these remarkable
positive examples.
Hebrews 3,.
It tells the story of thatgeneration that was alive at the
beginning of Numbers and they'dstarted with promise.
They followed Moses out ofEgypt.
(20:52):
They walked through the sea.
They experienced suchdeliverance.
Miriam sings a great song.
They believe God, trust hisservant Moses, but they grumble
repeatedly, they complainrepeatedly and we're told they
die short of the land and it'sbecause of unbelief.
And Hebrews says that as awarning lest we likewise fall
(21:17):
into that.
And so it does give thisnegative example, and Hebrews is
going to help model us andprepare us as a congregation to
explore that more fully thisfall as we journey more
patiently through the intricateturns and twists of the book of
Numbers, as it does tell the sadand tragic death of that old
(21:40):
generation, but then it alsopoints to the birth of a new
promised generation.
That's right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah Well, we'll have to wait till this fall to get
there, but in the meantime we'llhopefully keep digesting
Hebrews and using some of theinsights that we've gleaned from
just the way you've pointed usto using the cross-references.
I remember last episode wetalked about Calvin as a sure
guide to making sense of Hebrewsand just hearing the preached
(22:07):
word week in and week outthrough the spring of the same
you.
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, MichaelKronenberg, and once again I'm
here with.
Michael Allen.
How are we doing?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Mike, I'm doing great .
Glad to be talking with youtoday.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I know this is our much promised.
We mentioned it last time wewere together that we were going
to be recording again, and nowhere we are.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Folks have been waiting on it.
I hope they have, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, I mean for one thing the All of Life podcast.
We were kind of on hiatus alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
But the day has come.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We're back weekly episodes.
So, man, so here we are.
Yeah, we're into the monthwhere, you know, we're getting
more and more comfortable withHebrews.
You know, we talked a lot aboutsome of the context and ways of
appreciating it last time wewere together, and today we're
going to do a little bit more ofa deep dive on the connections
between Hebrews and the OldTestament, particularly as it
(01:01):
helps us read the Old Testament,and you were talking last time
about cross-references, so wewant to just double-click on
that a little bit, just makesure that it's clear what we're
talking about there.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, so the New Testament, roughly 22% 25% of it
, depending on quite how youcount are words, phrases and
sentences taken from the OldTestament.
That's a massive amount,whether it's overtly quoting or
it's more subtly alluding toScripture before.
(01:34):
And one way most Bibles whetheryou're looking at it digitally
or you're looking at a hard copyin front of you they're going
to help clue you into that isthat they're going to have an
apparatus on the page.
In many it'll be a centralcolumn, perhaps between two
(01:55):
larger columns of text, orperhaps you have one column of
text that's larger and there aremarginal notes to various
scriptures along the side, orperhaps it's all down at the
bottom of the page likefootnotes and there are marginal
notes to various scripturesalong the side, or perhaps it's
all down at the bottom of thepage like footnotes.
There are different ways thisoccurs and, of course, often
(02:15):
digitally.
It's going to be something youhover over, that's a marker, and
suddenly it appears on thescreen.
In any event, whichever form itis, those are gifts because,
like me, I assume most othersdon't have the entirety of the
Old Testament memorized.
Not yet at least, Even if youdid, you wouldn't immediately
recognize the random phrase orline, even if you did know it
(02:39):
right.
So we're all at a disadvantagein that regard.
We don't have it all memorizedand we wouldn't recognize it all
even if we did, and so we'vegot the gift of folks who've
done hard work and they'vepresented it to us there that,
as we're working through Hebrews1, we will hit a range of
references and we can beprompted to look back to this
(03:01):
text, to that chapter, andthey're like hyperlinks.
Whereas you're surfing here,you find something that's
adjacent and related there.
That doesn't mean everything isequally significant and
identically important, but itdoes give you the range of
(03:23):
relevant resources or texts thatare going to be important to
understand what's going on, andso making sure you've got a
Bible that you read that hasthat before you is really
important.
You may read another Biblewithout cross-references just to
read quickly or to meditate,but when you want to actually be
(03:48):
able to glean and think andstudy and learn,
cross-references are about asimportant as anything.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah Well, I mean, I'm a big fan of the reader
editions of the Bibles whereit's getting it closer to the
way a normal book looks, whereit's just text and chapter
headings, and I think those arereally great for devotional
reading, meditation, moving fromreading to prayer.
But, like you say, if you'retrying to study, which is really
a different mode of engagingscripture, you want those
(04:17):
cross-references Because, amongother things, as we were talking
a little bit before we recorded, it lets you into the
equivalent of an inside joke.
It before we recorded it letsyou into the equivalent of an
inside joke.
Like there are things beingsaid that if you don't know the
context for it's like, well, Ican kind of make sense of the
words on the page, but maybethere's a deeper meaning to what
it is, because it's referringback to something I wasn't
around for.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yep, yeah, I mean probably, like me, many people
have lived in a bunch ofdifferent cities over the course
of their lives.
I think I'm in number seven nowwhere.
I've been for multiple years andthat means most of us, unless
we stay in one place with onetribe.
We've gotten familiar to thefeeling of meeting a new group
of people, being welcomed buteven realizing however welcoming
(05:00):
and hospitable they are.
There are going to be pointswhere they use a phrase or they
refer to some term and it's notmeant to be secret, but it is an
inner reference to which you'renot yet privy and you've got to
ask or they've got to offer, orthere's going to be some
element of depth that you'rejust missing.
(05:21):
You might catch that.
Clearly it was a funnyreference or a serious and grave
one.
You can catch the affect, butyou don't know anything about
what's prompting that.
All of us know that feelingwhich makes us feel like I'm
here but I'm not fully here.
I'm tracking but I know I'mmissing something I might
(05:42):
further track.
That's what it's like to readHebrews without an awareness of
those scriptural hyperlinks,those cross-references, the
earlier scriptures of the OldTestament that it's working with
, and so the more we can getfamiliarity there, the more we
can appreciate and track withthe fuller richness and beauty
(06:04):
of exactly what it's doing.
What it's saying is still thecase and where it's saying some
things are now new and distinct.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, because Hebrews really is.
I think we mentioned this lasttime when we were talking about.
Just If you can just look atthe text, even without these
cross-references, you're seeing,depending on how your text is
formatted, all of these obviousquotes from the Old Testament.
And you brought up the when wewere talking before.
It's like music samples.
It's like, yeah, I kind ofrecognize that riff.
(06:34):
Oh, that's because it's fromthis song in the 60s and this
hip-hop artist has sampled it.
He's taken a piece of it andmade it part of a new song, and
his new song is maybe betterthan the old thing, but it's
doing something different thanthe old thing, but it's still in
continuity with it because it'swoven in this piece of an older
song into the newer song.
(06:54):
And the author of Hebrews isdoing that all sorts of Old
Testament text, weaving theminto his argument, making
something new.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
We experience that often in terms of sampling and
worship I mean a number of thesongs we regularly sing are
taking classic hymns, resettingthem obviously with new
instrumentation, new arrangement, but also often with new
refrains or adapting languagefor various reasons.
(07:25):
Either it likely wouldn'tcommunicate or be understood, or
it's being merged or combinedwith some other statement.
We encounter this all the time,not just in pop culture, hip
hop music, but even in the kindof hymns and songs that we sing
together in church.
(07:46):
And there's something too folkswho know the older hymn can see
what new emphasis is beinggiven when it's slightly adapted
or rearranged Right.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And just to underscore something you said
earlier, it's not that Hebrewsis an anomaly in the New
Testament, in that Paul is justwhen he's writing.
He's just coming up with stuffon the spot.
He's doing a lot of this too.
What we're trying to underscore, what we're trying to emphasize
, is that Hebrews is doing it ina more intensive way than other
(08:17):
epistles, the Gospels.
Matthew is doing a lot ofreference back to the Old
Testament, but not quite in thesame degree as the author of
Hebrews is.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, totally.
The prophets of the OldTestament do this.
They don't make up stuff.
When they challenge the peoplein their sin, they go to the law
, the Pentateuch, jesus ifanyone could have just said what
he thought, it's the incarnateSon of God.
But Jesus instills this idea ofteaching by means of using the
Torah that came before him,learning from him Paul, peter,
(08:50):
all the others this is acrossthe New Testament.
Hebrews, along with Matthew andJohn's account of the gospel.
They're the most intenseversions, and probably Hebrews
more than any other, and so ifwe can learn how to pay
attention to this feature here,it's going to help us as we read
(09:10):
across and listen to thepreaching on the rest of the New
Testament.
Another way to think about it isto say, of course, the whole
Word of God is given by God tobuild us up, to form us.
At the same time, there aresome parts of the Bible, certain
books, that are like centralhubs, so directly connected to
(09:32):
so many others that when youknow them and you know how to
navigate them, they help you notonly grasp what they say, but
they help you know how to graspwhat others say.
Haggai is written for your good.
It's the inspired Word of God,it plays a distinct and crucial
role.
Deuteronomy is not only that,but it is so connected to so
(09:55):
many other parts of the Biblethat knowing how Deuteronomy
works opens a lot of other doors, which Haggai itself doesn't.
Hebrews is like that.
Like Deuteronomy, like someother central books, many of
which that we've studied Genesis, romans, etc.
It not only gives you oneremarkable witness, but because
(10:17):
it is so directly tied to theteaching of others, especially
the Old Testament, it helps youknow how to hear them
appropriately too.
So it really repays study andit really repays attentive
listening and reading to thatlevel of its communication, how
it's drawing on and developingearlier teaching, earlier
(10:41):
scripture.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Right, right, and so we.
I probably don't want to go toodeep in the weeds in this, but
I know some of the argumentsaround Hebrews was that it
originally was a sermon and evenif it's not totally that we do
want to remember.
These letters in the NewTestament were originally mainly
heard in corporate worship andwere digested, internalized,
(11:05):
meditated upon in that way.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And that's a setting in which we want to be alert to
the ways it uses the OldTestament you mentioned.
There are some spots where itquotes things at length, where
there's an indentation.
For instance, you know,jeremiah 31, 31 to 34, a whole
paragraph gets quoted by thetime we're seven, eight chapters
(11:29):
in and it gets quoted and thenit gets discussed and explained
or interpreted to us.
That's a formal quotation ofsignificant length.
And there are other formalquotations where your text will
surely put it in quotation marks, it'll perhaps indent and so
forth.
But there's a lot of other spotswhere, as with any sermon,
(11:54):
someone is not saying you know,here's what Jeremiah says in
chapter 31, but they simply usea word or phrase or oftentimes a
range of words and phrases froman earlier scripture, and we
see this too in Hebrews.
Oftentimes it's alluding to apassage or a set of passages,
(12:16):
even when it never exactlyquotes it at any length.
So we want to be alert to twokinds of ways the Old Testament
comes up that formal quotation,which is more obvious, and, on
the nose, the more subtleallusion, which is also really
important.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, those make me think of the way a lot of movies
work where a director wants todo an homage to a director that
was influential to him,important yeah, those make me
think of the way a lot of movieswork where there's, you know, a
director wants to do an homageto a director that was
influential to him, and sothere'll be a scene in his movie
it's not a sample, so he's notdoing what the musician's doing
where he straight up takes apiece of the old song and puts
it in a new song, but he does ascene where some of the way the
(12:55):
characters are interacting orthe props, it suggests the
classic one.
I don't have a ton of greatexamples, but if anyone's seen
the Godfather, there's the horsehead that ends up in the bed.
I'm not going to explain allthe context for it, but you know
there's an episode of ModernFamily where, you know, a
stuffed toy horse head ends upin somebody's bed and it's you
know.
You have to know that it'sreferring back to this movie,
(13:17):
otherwise it's not quite asfunny and it's kind of a little
weird and off-putting, even Yep,and we all communicate in those
ways regularly, in our ownintentional and thought-out ways
and oftentimes intuitive andspontaneous ways.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So we want to be alert to that.
We also want to be alert toHebrews uses the Old Testament
really to two different effects.
Right.
Oftentimes people interpretingHebrews talk about how it's a
Christ-centered vision of theOld Testament.
That's true, but to catch thatwe need to appreciate the full
(13:56):
range of what Christ-centeredmeans.
To catch that we need toappreciate the full range of
what Christ-centered means.
On the one hand, and mostobviously, hebrews talks about
the way Jesus is greater orsuperior than a number of major
figures from the Old TestamentMoses or the law, the angels,
the high priests, etc.
You have these great, valuedfigures central to the religion
(14:20):
of the Israelites, commanded andblessed by God.
Hebrews doesn't dismiss them.
None of them get bashed,they're not dissed, they're not
challenged, they're simplyrelativized.
Jesus is greater than each ofthem, which presumes they are
each good, they're a goodprovision of God, but Jesus is
the fulfillment or the greaterinstantiation of each.
(14:42):
Most fully.
Of course, hebrews chapter 5 allthe way through Hebrews chapter
10 are one long argument thatJesus is the great high priest
and the great sacrifice, andwhile we continue to give
sacrifices of thanksgiving andpraise, he has completed or
fulfilled the need forsacrifices for sin and guilt,
(15:06):
and that's the most blunt andextended and rich argument for
him fulfilling that need forblood as an offering in the
place of sin and guilt.
That's why you ought not goback to synagogue worship or
temple worship.
That's why you ought to remainon the Christian way.
(15:27):
That's why you ought to keeprunning the race set before you.
That's central to the mainpoint of Hebrews, and that's one
of these profound examples ofJesus as the greater and final
character in a long train thatran through the Old Testament,
whether it's a prophet, a priest, a king, a leader, etc.
(15:48):
That's not the only way Hebrewstalks about the Old Testament,
though, and it's pretty amazing.
Right after that long argumentfrom chapter 5 through 10,
hebrews 11 sounds very different, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Which we're going to be spending.
I think we're spending themonth of May.
Maybe we're going to lingerthere for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And Hebrews 11, and then parts of 12 and 13,.
They look to the Old Testamentand they Especially chapter
looks at so many differentstories very briefly with one
thing in mind how, by faith,so-and-so did such-and-such.
They do lots of differentthings.
They build boats, they letspies into the city, they do a
(16:29):
range of verbs or actions, butin every case Hebrews is drawing
out they're living by faith.
And it does so because we,looking to that great cloud of
witnesses that surrounds us,we're to run the race up before
us.
We're to imitate notnecessarily their boat building
or letting spies into the city,not the particular action per se
(16:52):
, but the faith that motivatestheir living.
We're to live likewise by faith, and here we've got use of the
Old Testament as a set ofexamples.
So we often talk at New Cityabout how we're called not just
to make disciples, but discipleswho make disciples.
(17:14):
Yes, the generational yeah andthat means we need to be ready
to say follow me as I followChrist.
And we're not the first peopleto think that or experience that
, of course.
And Hebrews models this idea ofhow we can look back, and it
goes all the way back to Genesis, to Noah, to Enoch, to Abram
and Sarah and so forth.
(17:35):
We can see there are people whohave been models of imitation.
They're sinners, they havesometimes pretty flagrant
screw-ups that Scripture willeven talk about at times, but
they're also models of faith andwe're called not to model or
imitate their idiosyncrasies butto run the race set before us
(17:56):
in a way that likewise lives byfaith, but to run the race set
before us in a way that likewiselives by faith.
And so Hebrews does present theOld Testament, so we see Jesus
fulfilling things as thegreatest and superior version of
it.
Hebrews also uses the OldTestament to model Christian
living by faith as we followAbram, Sarah, Rahab, Noah and so
(18:22):
forth, Even the innumerableanonymous persons who,
nonetheless, which even getmentioned, which do get
mentioned and do play a role,even if they have no fame and no
grandiosity in the wider sphere, and Hebrews itself tells us
(18:43):
those examples from the OldTestament are models for more
recent things.
Chapter 12 turns to Jesus.
He's not just one who, by faith, did one thing, he's the author
and perfecter of faith and he,for the joy set before him,
endured the cross, despising itsshame.
He's the ultimate and onlysinless example of faith.
And then chapter 13 saysremember your leaders, those who
(19:05):
taught you the word of God.
Consider the outcome of theirway of life and imitate their
faith.
Jesus Christ is the sameyesterday, today and forever,
Because Jesus, the object offaith, doesn't change.
I can look to my pastors andteachers and parents and elder
friends who've modeled faith forme and again, I'm not going to
(19:26):
imitate everything about them,but I'm going to observe how
they live by faith in that Jesusand knowing Jesus doesn't
change.
I can now remember and imitatethat faith in my own life and
try and model it for my kids,friends and others.
I might disciple.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, well, and that exemplary way of reading that
you're highlighting here.
You know, in our McShane Biblereading plan we've just been in,
we've been in a variety oftexts, but a lot of us have been
in 1 Corinthians, and 1Corinthians 10 is one of those
texts that is pointing us backto things from the Old Testament
that are, you know, paul's veryexplicit.
(20:02):
These were written as examplesfor us and the text that he's
it's a little ironic I think wemay have mentioned this on
podcast before.
The text that he's talkingabout are in Numbers, which is
where most Bible reading plans,if they didn't die.
In Leviticus they die in thewilderness in Numbers.
But that's where we're going tobe this fall, and so there's
some continuity we've alluded toit a few times of being in
(20:24):
Hebrews.
The way that we're going to beexperiencing it this spring is
kind of a setup for the waywe're going to spend time in
numbers in the fall.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, and that's the one big negative example.
In Hebrews, Chapter 11 and 12and 13 give you these remarkable
positive examples.
Hebrews 3,.
It tells the story of thatgeneration that was alive at the
beginning of Numbers and they'dstarted with promise.
They followed Moses out ofEgypt.
(20:52):
They walked through the sea.
They experienced suchdeliverance.
Miriam sings a great song.
They believe God, trust hisservant Moses, but they grumble
repeatedly, they complainrepeatedly and we're told they
die short of the land and it'sbecause of unbelief.
And Hebrews says that as awarning lest we likewise fall
(21:17):
into that.
And so it does give thisnegative example, and Hebrews is
going to help model us andprepare us as a congregation to
explore that more fully thisfall as we journey more
patiently through the intricateturns and twists of the book of
Numbers, as it does tell the sadand tragic death of that old
(21:40):
generation, but then it alsopoints to the birth of a new
promised generation.
That's right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah Well, we'll have to wait till this fall to get
there, but in the meantime we'llhopefully keep digesting
Hebrews and using some of theinsights that we've gleaned from
just the way you've pointed usto using the cross-references.
I remember last episode wetalked about Calvin as a sure
guide to making sense of Hebrewsand just hearing the preached
(22:07):
word week in and week outthrough the spring of the same
you.
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