February 6, 2025 • 31 mins
In our latest episode of the All in Life Podcast, Nate Claiborne and Benjamin Kandt kick off by connecting Leviticus to Hebrews and lay the groundwork for the upcoming spring sermon series at NewCity. They also talk about the importance of the Nicene Creed and plan to record a few episodes later this spring unpacking the riches and depths of this statement of faith.
Later this season, there will also be episodes supporting the "Summer in the Psalms" series that will spotlight Psalm 37, as well as deep dives on the various Common Rhythm practices in the life of NewCity.
Nate and Ben wrap up the episode by catching up briefly on each other's current PhD work. They highlight the mutual benefits for pastors and counselors learning from one another, especially in times of mental health crises.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the All in Life
Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and I'm here today with Benjamin
Kant.
Nate, good to be back in actionwith you.
It is good to be back.
The last podcast we recordedwas in this room, but I think it
was last summer.
I think it was last May.
Yeah, I think so.
It has been, because we didn'tdo any episodes over the summer
(00:34):
and then you weren't.
I don't think you were on anepisode in the fall.
That's what happened.
I don't know what we were doing.
You didn't want to talk aboutpolitics.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I guess is what it was?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Something like that, something like that.
But if listeners remember, wehad a pretty good rhythm.
We did a how to Read the Bibleseries and we were recording
kind of just shorter episodesevery week, and so our hope is
we're going to try to do thatthis spring at least.
We can't speak much past thespring.
Some of that's the PhD life,some of that's just kind of
(01:03):
where we are, it's life at NewCity.
But we're going to try to getrolling on some episodes this
spring.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, that's good.
You know it's actually going tohappen because we have a
recurring calendar invite.
That's right, and so now it'sactually going to be a thing
that happens, get it on thecalendar, reserve the room, get
a little bit of a plan going.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So what we're going to do today, we wanted to give
you all a little bit of apreview kind of like what we did
last fall of some things weknow we're going to be doing.
And then we're also Ben and Iactually haven't caught up on
just things that we're intospecifically our PhD programs.
So we're actually just going todo that on this episode because
we figured it might beinteresting to other people as
well.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yes, yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So Ben Damien actually set you up for this on
Sunday by saying he didn't wantto announce what the spring
series was, but it does start intwo weeks less than two weeks,
10 days.
So what are we going to be intothis spring?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We are jumping into the book of Hebrews.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Okay, romans wasn't hard enough, that's right.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
There was some back and forth, because we also
really want to do a gospelpretty soon, and so we were
talking about maybe some sort ofa thematic series in one of the
gospels or maybe the parable,something like that.
We did the Beatitudes lastspring, so that is a gospel, of
course, but really we'd like toget some of the narrative
aspects of the gospels orsomething like that too.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Which I can't remember.
I mean we've, we've donepassages, but I don't, can't
remember I've only been aroundsince 2017, but I can't remember
a series on a gospel.
I remember Sermon on the Mountseries.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, it's been.
It's certainly been a while,that's for sure.
So, um, the other reason forthe reason that decided us in
favor of Hebrews, though, isbecause we just finished
Leviticus, and Leviticus andHebrews pair nicely like a red
wine and a steak, or somethinglike that, and so, because of
that, you know, you get out ofLeviticus the strange world that
(02:58):
is the Bible, and particularlythe stranger world that is
Leviticus, which, by the way,has changed the way I read the
Old Testament and the NewTestament.
I mean, it's like you realize,when you sit in a book like
Leviticus, you understand whyit's pretty foundational.
It's one of the foundationalfive, you know, and so I say
that to say, going fromLeviticus into Hebrews and then
(03:20):
from Hebrews into Numbers in thefall, actually has a good flow
conceptually and I think willset us up well and then from
Hebrews into Numbers in the fallactually has a good flow
conceptually and I think willset us up well.
And then I think Numbers willset us up well potentially for
Luke in 2026.
So let's get way out ahead ofour skis here.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
That's right.
I mean, we do think ahead alittle bit.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So we're going to start Hebrews.
Hebrews is going to take usfrom mid-February all the way
through the end of May, and oneof the things I'm most excited
for is Hebrews has a.
The essence of it is this ideaof what does it look like to
become unshakable in yourdiscipleship to Jesus, in your
faith in Christ, and so one ofthe ideas that I've been
(04:04):
considering, since I spent a lotof time in the book of
Philippians, is this idea ofgospel resilience, or even, to
take it further, gospelanti-fragility and I get that
from the book by Nicholas NassimTaleb, I believe is his name,
called Anti-Fragility, and theillustration I think is best,
for it is like you have thingsthat are fragile, like a
(04:28):
champagne glass, right.
You knock it off the table, ithits the ground and shatters
everywhere.
You have things that areresilient, like a sippy cup, a
kid's sippy cup.
You throw it against the wall,it maintains its form.
One of those old Nokia phones,that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
The brick phone that you have the snake on.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
They maintain their form through adversity.
That's a good definition ofresilience.
But then there's things thatare anti-fragile.
Your immune system isanti-fragile.
So, if you throw adversity atyour immune system, it might get
some setbacks, but it actuallycomes back stronger.
It's more than just resilient.
Your muscles are that way too.
(05:01):
You break your muscles down andthey actually rebuild back with
greater strength.
Relationships, healthyrelationships, are that way.
If you have rupture in arelationship and you repair it
properly, you have more trustand strength often in that
relationship than before.
So how can the gospel actuallycreate an anti-fragility in
disciples of Jesus and I thinkthe book of Hebrews really sets
(05:22):
us up for that for a gospelanti-fragility and I'm looking
forward to Hebrews really setsus up for that for a gospel,
anti-fragility, and I'm lookingforward to exploring that
together this spring.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, because, even as you're saying that, I'm
thinking about okay.
Well, yeah, you made theconnection between Leviticus and
Hebrews, and one of the thingsthat has historically made
Hebrews so hard to understandfor people is they don't
understand Leviticus.
That's right.
It's like if you don't havethat foundation from this is
what was going on with thesacrificial system and the
holiness codes, then it's notreally clear, like what's the
author of Hebrews getting at,like what are they trying to do?
(05:51):
But then you also have thesewarning passages and it's like,
okay, well, what?
How do we think about those?
Yeah, especially from aReformed perspective, where we
just our doctrinal commitments.
It kind of sounds like Paul,you know, not Paul, but well,
maybe depending on who you ask.
Or Luke or Apollos or somebody.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, are we going to spend a whole this is
self-control for Nate and Iright now that we're not going
to do that rabbit trail yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I'll circle back to this.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, that rabbit trail.
Yeah, I'll circle back to this.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, You're just those warningpassages.
I mean you've got to thinkabout what are we?
What are those?
How do those function in thebook?
How am I supposed to thinkabout those as a disciple,
Because they're prettystraightforward in some sense.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, the Hebrews really, I think, is trying to
protect us from really twothings that are that are, uh,
dangers.
One is the, the kind of the,the pressures that we experience
in following Jesus from theoutside, from from the culture
around us, that don't make youdecide, like in a crisis moment,
(06:54):
I don't want anything to dowith Jesus anymore, but they
just cause you to drift away Inthat language of drifting.
We all know, we all know thisidea that, like, without you
know, deliberate intentionalityto move in the direction of
faithfulness, drifting isactually probably a default mode
if we're not careful, and sothat's one of the dangers.
The other one is is thatthere's this real temptation to,
(07:17):
in critical moments, like maybepersecution for the Hebrews,
like these different things togo.
Is this really worth it?
Is this whole following Jesusthing really worth it?
Maybe it's not.
And kind of reconsider, and so Ithink it has something to do
with to speak into ourdeconstructing, deconverting and
dechurching phenomena in theUnited States right now which,
(07:41):
by the way, I think all three ofthose might be almost
synonymous in the Bible, likethere's no such thing as
somebody who's a Christianthat's not a part of a local
church in Scripture, right andso, and Hebrews would tell you
that, like, do not forsakegathering together as is the
habit of some.
And so there's just somethingabout Hebrews, and it's called a
gospel resilience, gospel,anti-fragility, in the face of
(08:04):
pressures and persecution.
That, I think, is a good wordfor us.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah Well, we'll look forward to it.
And to circle back from what Isaid a minute ago, mike Allen
and I, as part of this preview,we're going to be doing some
episodes, probably dealing withsome of these thornier issues in
a way that we don't have timefor on Sunday morning, but maybe
even tackling some of thoseauthorship questions.
It is a little weird that it'sthe one book in the New
Testament that we don't knowexactly who wrote it, because it
(08:30):
didn't have a name attached toit, and so there's a lot of
speculations.
And ultimately, the good newsis the interpretation of what is
being said in Hebrews does nothinge on whether it came from
Paul or whether it came from oneof the other people in that
orbit.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's great.
So helpful and interesting toexplore that, because authorial
intent typically matters ininterpreting Scripture.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So we've got Hebrews as kind of our big thing for the
spring but we've got some otherparallel tracks I mentioned.
This may or may not include you, but it might to some extent.
Is people may have noticed weswitched away from the New City
Catechism to doing the NiceneCreed.
And I think we explained itmaybe the first week, but just
to reiterate, a lot of things inthe evangelical world are sort
(09:17):
of circling around.
The 1700-year anniversary ofthe Council of Nicaea that was
in 325.
And so you know the EvangelicalTheological Society's national
conference.
That's the theme for it thisyear.
Some of the regionalconferences are using that as
the same theme.
Ben, you were mentioning youcould tell the listeners about
(09:37):
your friend in Izmir, which ismodern-day Nicaea right, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, I have a friend who lives in Turkey and does
work over there and he hasorganized a conference.
Basically, nicaea is inmodern-day Turkey and so it's
this conference for the1700-year anniversary of the
writing of the Nicene Creed.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, so it's a really foundational creed.
I mean, the Apostles' Creed is alittle bit earlier and there's
continuity between the two, butthe language of Nicaea has been
carefully crafted as a result ofthat conference in 325 AD, and
it has a you know, we're goingto be saying it, reciting it
together as our profession offaith every Sunday, and so it
(10:20):
felt like, well, we shouldprobably do some episodes kind
of digging into the theology ofit a little bit.
There's a strong part of whatsparked the idea.
For me is and we'll circle backto this there's going to be a
lot of circling in this podcast,but one of my PhD classes right
now is called TheologicalSystems and we have to go
through each of the majorsystems, slash traditions of
(10:42):
Christendom, and we started withRoman Catholics, and so one of
our textbooks was the CatholicCatechism, and the whole first
part of it is a commentary onthe Nicene Creed, and that's
what they use to teach basictheology.
It's like, oh okay, so theymight interpret it a little bit
differently than we would in aReformed Presbyterian context,
but there's something to hey,this has really stood the test
(11:04):
of time.
It's a really importantconfession of faith.
We ought to not just know it,but know what it means.
And so I think we're beingformed by reciting it every
Sunday and I hope people takethe encouragement to memorize it
you got 52 Sundays to work with, that's right but to actually
understand it in a little moredetail.
So we're going to sprinkle someepisodes in.
We haven't decided on the exactshape of it, but some of it
(11:26):
will be the historicalbackground.
Some of it's going to be thedeep dives on why is it worded
this way?
I think we have to answer.
Why does it say Catholic?
We used to have an asterisk atthe bottom, but there's reasons
why.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I'm eager for it.
I think somehow now we're onlylike four or five Sundays into
2025, but every time we'verecited it together as a people,
I get caught up in the momentof it.
It hasn't become rote.
It hasn't become white noise.
There's such a majesty to thelanguage of the.
Nicene Creed, and I actuallythink the length of it compared
(12:03):
to maybe, the Apostles' Creed isI don't know.
There's just something aboutthe length of it, right Even
that draws you up into it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It almost makes it feel like a different experience
Because, as much as Iappreciate the simplicity of the
New City Catechism, where wedid a question a week and worked
our way through it, sometimesit's like the question and
answer, it's like two sentencesand then you're on.
It's like we didn't linger init, not that we were supposed to
, but it just sort of made thatpart of the liturgy feel really
(12:35):
small.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And now it's actually like a really by having to do
the Nicene Creed.
It's this developed portion ofthe liturgy where we're slowing
down and reciting this thingtogether that millions of
Christians have recited inSunday services for 1,700 years.
Yeah, which is remarkable.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's part of, I think, my experience of getting
caught up in it.
It's like, wow, we stand in touse the language we believe in
one holy Catholic and apostolicchurch, right, and there's just
this, like there's a unity tothe body of Christ throughout
history and around the globetoday, when we stand with our
(13:14):
brothers and sisters and recitethis creed.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Right, and even to that point it's like.
You know.
I was reading it in theCatholic Catechism, and as much
as we would disagree withCatholics on a bunch, of things
we both agree on that creed andEastern Orthodox are going to
claim that you know, they'vebeen using that creed since it
was written and so it's like theEastern Orthodox.
And so the three broad streamsof Christendom Roman Catholics,
(13:39):
eastern Orthodox, protestantsthere's one thing they can agree
on, although there is that onephrase that is a little bit
divisive.
We won't get into the greatschism in detail right and we'll
use some more restraint.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
but yeah, that's good .
So we've got the Nicene Creedepisodes that'll be coming up
Also.
Maybe it's worth talking aboutthe.
We do our annual summer in thePsalms in June, and this summer
we're going to be spending thewhole month of June in Psalm 37.
So this hasn't worked outperfectly, but we've had a
(14:09):
practice of alternating betweentopical or thematic studies in
the Psalms and then taking on aPsalm or two Psalms and really
deep diving into that Was Psalm16, the last one.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
We spent the whole summer in that one.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yep, that's right.
And so Psalm 37,autobiographically speaking, I
spent unintentionally, I spentall of 2024 memorizing it, and
the reason why it took me all of2024 is because I was
distracted at points.
And it's 40 verses, it's prettylong, but I started memorizing
it because we were preachingthrough the Beatitudes and
(14:46):
Blessed are the meek comes fromPsalm 37.
And so I wanted to memorize itbefore we preached on that text,
and then I found myself justlingering in it for an entire
year and realizing it's a wisdompsalm and just experiencing the
wisdom for different seasons of2024 that I found my life that
were just happening in my life.
(15:07):
So, for just a simple example,psalm 37 talks about justice a
good bit, and I was in a coursewhere I one of my main projects
was to write a theology ofjustice and I've got some pretty
clear, now way more clear.
But I'm pretty opinionated onjustice because I think there's
a lot of nonsense about justiceout there today, and so living
(15:29):
in the psalm that says the Lordloves justice was really helpful
for me, and I could tell youprobably four or five other
anecdotes from my own personalexperience with this psalm.
So the way we're going to comeat this as a sermon series and
we'll probably have some podcastepisodes with it too but is
there is a future?
Psalm 37, verse 37 says there isa future for the man of peace,
(15:53):
and I think there's somethingabout Psalm 37 that orients us
towards the future actually, iscertain and sure and secure.
It's actually the present.
That's a little bit cloudy forus and so when you're in the
here and now, it feels like whatare we going to do?
But if you belong to Jesus, youknow the best is yet to come,
no matter what, no matter what.
(16:13):
And Psalm 37 kind of orientsyour gaze towards God's future
and I think, in a meaningful wayand then asks how should that
shape your present?
What should that mean for yourmoney, for generosity, for
justice, for how you deal withanxiety and anger and looking
and experiencing envy and allthese different things?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So that'll be good.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
So the Psalm 37 over the summer, this theme of there
is a future, that's right, we'renot going to speak past that.
But really the way we've beendoing the way we've been doing
the seasons on here is they'retied to the ministry calendar
and just the ebb and flow ofhaving a fall season where,
where you know, community groupsare meeting and all these
things are going on, orcommunities, and then we take a
(16:58):
dip through December and thenpart of January and then we kind
of ramp back up until May, andso we're trying to have the the
all of life podcast sort offollow, that ebb and flow.
And so we don't really plan todo much over the summer, but we
do want to.
We'll probably drop episodes inMay as preparation for that
summer in the series, and thenwe'll pick back up in August for
that Summer in the Psalmsseries, and then we'll pick back
(17:19):
up in August, september withsomething else that we'll tell
you about when we get closer tothen.
That's great.
We did mention this at thefront end, but just to kind of
well actually, I'm rememberingwe have one more thing that I do
know we're going to try to doand that's deep dives on common
rhythm practices.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
That's right.
Yeah, as a church we have thecommon rhythm which is the
tagline is a common life for acommon love, and one of the ways
that we have this kind of lifetogether as a people is by
practicing together.
And so we've got eightpractices four are weekly, four
(17:54):
are daily, and all of them arerooted in Scripture.
Every one of them you couldderive from the Bible, and
they're ways for us to put ourfaith into practice.
One of the things that Iexperienced when I'm around
friends that are Jewish orfriends that are Catholic, is
they have a distinction that wedon't use in Protestantism, and
maybe nor should we, but there'ssomething to it, which is you
can be a Jew and be a practicingJew or a Catholic.
(18:19):
That's a practicing Catholic,and then you can kind of just be
like a non-practicing Catholicor non-practicing Jew.
Protestants don't allow forthat One, because we have a
higher emphasis on faith, onbelief, like if you don't
believe the things you're not inkind of a thing.
But two, we just don't use thatlanguage of being I'm a
practicing Presbyterian.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You never hear that.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But I think there's something interesting to that.
But we call medicalprofessionals, lawyers,
healthcare professionals.
They're practicing I practicemedicine, I practice law, that
kind of thing.
So there's something reallysignificant about do you
practice your faith or not?
That's actually the distinctionbetween a practicing Jew or
practicing Catholic and anon-practicing is.
(19:03):
Does it matter to you, like, isit going to cost you something?
Are you going to give yourselfto it?
And so at New City we arepracticing disciples of Jesus.
We really do put our faith intopractice through prayer and
scripture and rest and feast andfast and these other practices
that we do, and scripture andrest and feast and fast, and
these other practices that we do.
So we thought, well, let's helpcontinue to press in as a
congregation and really have apattern of pressing into these
(19:32):
practices on an annual rhythm,so that we have a calendar, that
kind of lines and maps onto thecommon rhythm practices.
And so you'll see, the nexttime that you and I talk, nate,
we'll be doing a deep dive onthe scripture practice and we've
got some of these otherpractices lined up according to
the annual calendar and howthese practices kind of fit with
everything.
And then we have the bookend,which is our seasons of rest,
(19:55):
where we pause and we reflect,which is when we use the all of
life guide.
And so we do that twice a yearand then we've got these eight
practices stretched outthroughout the other months of
the year.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, and part of them being practices.
Sometimes the joke is, like youmentioned, doctors and lawyers
like, oh, you haven't gotten itdown yet, you're still just
practicing.
It's like, no, there's anelement to where and I won't
share the full anecdote, butjust an experience that my dad
had with my mom and a healthcareprofessional over the weekend
where they're trying to figureout something going on with her
(20:27):
and the doctor was just like,yeah, people are different.
Different people respond todifferent things.
Sometimes you know people haveyou think they have this one
thing and but they don't havethese symptoms.
And the doctor was just likethat's why they call it a
practice.
Wow.
So he was sort of justadmitting the limits of his own
knowledge, but just being like,yeah, there's this, the way he
was using it.
It was like there's this senseof you're further refining it by
(20:50):
experience.
And so, even though, yeah, heis a medical professional, he's
at least aware that it's notcookie cutter, it's not one size
fits all, it's we're practicingin the sense of we're getting
better and better and better atit as we go, just you know, like
a musician practices piano,even if they already have.
They already have it downbecause they're trying to get
better, and so, yes, I thinkthat's some of our philosophy
(21:11):
behind it is, you're neverreally going to master the
scripture practice.
It's like I got it down now,that's right, right, right.
It's like none of them aredesigned for achievement in the
sense of, yeah, you just have tomaster it and then you can move
on, and then you do the commonrhythm plus and it's these 16
things, that's right.
Totally new and different.
Yeah, that's really well said.
(21:32):
So in some sense it's like yeah, we're doing deep dives now,
but Lord willing, depending onhow things play out with our
calendars, we would do this samerhythm again next year.
And we wouldn't be like oh, werecorded a scripture practice
podcast last year, because Ithink if people go through our
archives they'll find well,we've done them before, that's
right, we haven't done it indepth on every single one, but
(21:54):
it's not really a new thing.
So we're trying to do the Inlight of the way we've changed
and grown in the last couple ofyears.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, that's well said.
So, Nate, as we land the plane,tell us about your PhD and
maybe tell us what you'restudying and kind of where you
are in this particular semester.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, well yeah, and we'll have to exchange war
stories.
I'm in what I hope is my lastyear of coursework for a PhD in
theological studies, so Istarted this.
This journey really started.
The possibility of it startedin the spring of 21, but I
didn't start classes untilspring of 23.
(22:36):
And I've got two classes thisspring Seminar on Theological
Systems that I already mentioned, where part of the way Dallas
Seminary wants to form people astheologians is they want them
to understand all the waysChristians have thought about
theology, and not so much thatthey then say well then, this is
the correct way to do it.
(22:57):
It's you need to familiarizeyourself with the different
systems so you know thedifference.
So I've got a presentation onLutheranism in a couple of weeks
because they wanted you topresent on systems you weren't
familiar with.
And I have no connection toLutheranism in my past or
probably my future.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Meanwhile I was born and baptized as a Lutheran.
I know On the eighth day of thetribe of Melanchthon.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I have to use that.
I'll run my presentation by you, you can make sure it's all
sound.
So I've got that and then runmy presentation by you and make
sure it's all.
That's great, it's all sound.
So I've got that and I've got areally fascinating class on
historiography and hermeneutics,which are fancy words for the
writing of history and theinterpretation of texts like
scripture.
And so just doing a deep diveon how do we think about writing
(23:41):
about the past, which is reallyjust another version of
interpretation, how do we makesense.
How do we find meaning in thepast, how do we find meaning in
a text those sorts of thingswhich everything I said right
there is controversial, just?
In the sense of like, if youput a bunch of PhD students in a
room like, what do you mean by?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
meaning and what do you mean by finding it in the
text?
What if you put it in the text?
Finding it in the text?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, what if you put it in the text?
Right, exactly.
So yeah, that's kind of myspring, the fall.
Hopefully I finish things out.
But my dissertation work is onthe flesh, so I'm trying to
argue for a specific way ofunderstanding where the flesh
fits into our theology.
Not really as a practical level,because it's a dissertation,
but in more of a.
How do we situate the flesh?
(24:29):
Is it part of anthropology,part of what it means to be
human?
Is it part of our doctrine ofsin?
Is the flesh synonymous withsin, nature, or is it somehow
distinct from it?
And then, what does it mean tothink of redemption, to think of
salvation, to think of how doesthat impact my flesh?
Is part of becoming a Christian, getting rid of the flesh, is
(24:50):
it I'm at war with the flesh?
Maybe based on how I'm readingRomans, but what does that
actually mean?
What does it mean that the wordbecame flesh?
And that is actually wherethings get really complicated.
There's a lot of things Johncould have said.
The word became a human, theword became a man, soma said the
word became a human.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
the word became a man .
Soma embodied the word becameembodied.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
but he chose to use that very loaded term flesh that
he knows how Paul uses it andhe still uses it.
So really it's linking all ofthose usages together and either
arguing that it's the sameconcept, and this is the way to
understand the concept, or it'sdifferent concepts.
But that's for me to figure outin the dissertation phase.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Oh, I'm eager to learn from you as you keep going
.
That's great.
Well, I am in a similar.
My coursework is tapering atthis point.
I've still got a course.
I've got two this semester.
One is qualitative research.
I did quantitative researchlast semester and it about
killed me.
I like to boil it down it'slike quantitative and
(25:51):
qualitative is stats and stories, and I am not a numbers person,
I'm a words person.
I'm not a stats person, I'm astories person, and so I'm very
eager for this class, becausequalitative research is exactly
what I want to do mydissertation on, and so I'm
doing a PhD in counseling andthe people will ask me look, why
do you want to do that?
(26:11):
And the I don't have an endgame.
That's the thing there's.
There's not like a door, that's.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I was going to say I should.
I should say the same thing,because that's the question I
get asked all the time too iswhat are you going to do when
you're done?
Yes, and it's like yes, andit's like well done.
Right now, my graduation is2029.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So I don't 2026 is kind of a stretch to be thinking
about, right, totally, yeah.
And one of the things that'sbeen clear, clear, clarified to
me, which I've been thankful for, is I really want to teach
pastors psychology and I want toteach counselors theology, and
I think that both of those twogroups of people being formed in
each other's disciplines canreally benefit.
And I've found that to be trueto my experience being both a
(26:53):
pastor and a counselor whodelves deeply into both theology
and psychology.
And the win for somebody likeme is you don't really have to
be very good at either of thosedisciplines, you just have to be
better than the other group,because they're not going to be
very well versed in it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You probably had a similar experience to me and
I've commented on this to MikeAllen, but DTS and RTS at least
the RTS you went to were verysimilar in that it was two
groups of students there.
There were pastors orpastors-in-training getting
their MDiv or THM and there werecounselors and early on they're
all in the same classestogether and they don't like
(27:28):
each other.
These are the truth, people,these are the feelings people,
right, right and it's like butyou guys would be so much better
if you could actually listen toand learn from each other,
rather than just staying in yourlike separate camps.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
You got it.
That's right.
So, uh, and, and what's beencool is, I've experienced
pastors very eager to learncounseling and psychology, and I
think one of the reasons forthat is we live in a mental
health crisis right now, whichis, for the record, not ordinary
.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
We live in an extraordinary moment, it's still
unprecedented times.
Yes, that's right, theprecedented times are not coming
back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah this is the most anxious generation that's ever
lived.
And so pastors, I think, arefeeling that because they're
getting eaten alive by trying tocare for the people in their
congregations and feeling out oftheir depth to do that well.
And then I think counselorsprobably feel a little bit less
the need for theology.
But I am deeply persuaded thatwhen you're counseling people,
(28:30):
you're exposed to some thingslike evil and suffering at
levels that you I mean whenyou're hearing stories of abuse
and things like that.
If you don't have a robustdoctrine of evil and theodicies
and an understanding of God'ssovereignty and how suffering is
formative, or you knowhermiteology, if you don't
(28:52):
understand how sin works, likeyou're going to think everything
is because of your family oforigin and your cultural context
and like.
So there's just all of thesethings that I think counselors
could benefit from theology andpastors could benefit from
psychology.
So I'm eager to press into that.
But I've got more clarity on mydissertation, which is I really
want to do a qualitativeproject where I study my
(29:14):
elevator speeches, the spiritualexperiences of business
executives.
If I double click on that, whatI mean is I believe that the
gifts, power and presence andfruit of the Spirit are for not
only as not in the church only,but also as the church in the
world.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And so my two case studies are Daniel and Joseph.
Okay, they're both faithfulpeople of God that are in pagan
contexts Joseph in Egypt, danielin Babylon and they're both
recognized as being one that hasthe spirit of God in them and
(29:54):
that gives them extraordinarygifts and skills and abilities
to actually lead.
Administratively, of course,they're interpreting dreams for
Pharaoh and stuff like that, butthey're also doing like
incredible leadership, executiveleadership roles, and so I want
to study how could, how doesthe Holy Spirit lead
(30:14):
organizational leaders in waysthat helps flourishing for them
and the people that they lead,helps them endure the stressors
and burdens of organizationalleadership, helps them be more
resilient, helps them in momentswhen they're in a crisis or
trying to problem solve, or whatdoes it mean to actually rely
on the Holy Spirit to do yourwork in a non-Christian
(30:35):
environment?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, so yeah.
Well, even as you're talkingabout that, I'm like you know,
we're not necessarily two sidesof the same coin, but our
dissertation projects arecomplimentary in the sense of
Flesh and spirit.
Flesh and spirit, because I'mlike, yeah, you know, big
passage for me is a feet orgalatians five, where it's
talking about works of the flesh.
It's like contrasted with worksof the spirit, it's like okay.
So you're basically askingpeople how they've not relied on
(30:57):
the flesh in their businessendeavors but you're framing it,
you know, around the spirit,whereas I'm framing things
around the flesh but, butthey're very that's, I've not
thought about that mutually,mutually beneficial.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
We can co-author something at the end.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
There you go, there's , there's, there's something
that we've talked about thatbefore, and so hopefully,
hopefully, we'll get theopportunity to Ben, it's been
great catching up with you andjust hearing a little bit about
what's coming up for a new cityin the spring and I look forward
(31:33):
to getting back together nextweek.
Welcome to another episode of the All in Life
Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and I'm here today with Benjamin
Kant.
Nate, good to be back in actionwith you.
It is good to be back.
The last podcast we recordedwas in this room, but I think it
was last summer.
I think it was last May.
Yeah, I think so.
It has been, because we didn'tdo any episodes over the summer
(00:34):
and then you weren't.
I don't think you were on anepisode in the fall.
That's what happened.
I don't know what we were doing.
You didn't want to talk aboutpolitics.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I guess is what it was?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Something like that, something like that.
But if listeners remember, wehad a pretty good rhythm.
We did a how to Read the Bibleseries and we were recording
kind of just shorter episodesevery week, and so our hope is
we're going to try to do thatthis spring at least.
We can't speak much past thespring.
Some of that's the PhD life,some of that's just kind of
(01:03):
where we are, it's life at NewCity.
But we're going to try to getrolling on some episodes this
spring.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, that's good.
You know it's actually going tohappen because we have a
recurring calendar invite.
That's right, and so now it'sactually going to be a thing
that happens, get it on thecalendar, reserve the room, get
a little bit of a plan going.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So what we're going to do today, we wanted to give
you all a little bit of apreview kind of like what we did
last fall of some things weknow we're going to be doing.
And then we're also Ben and Iactually haven't caught up on
just things that we're intospecifically our PhD programs.
So we're actually just going todo that on this episode because
we figured it might beinteresting to other people as
well.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yes, yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So Ben Damien actually set you up for this on
Sunday by saying he didn't wantto announce what the spring
series was, but it does start intwo weeks less than two weeks,
10 days.
So what are we going to be intothis spring?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We are jumping into the book of Hebrews.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Okay, romans wasn't hard enough, that's right.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
There was some back and forth, because we also
really want to do a gospelpretty soon, and so we were
talking about maybe some sort ofa thematic series in one of the
gospels or maybe the parable,something like that.
We did the Beatitudes lastspring, so that is a gospel, of
course, but really we'd like toget some of the narrative
aspects of the gospels orsomething like that too.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Which I can't remember.
I mean we've, we've donepassages, but I don't, can't
remember I've only been aroundsince 2017, but I can't remember
a series on a gospel.
I remember Sermon on the Mountseries.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, it's been.
It's certainly been a while,that's for sure.
So, um, the other reason forthe reason that decided us in
favor of Hebrews, though, isbecause we just finished
Leviticus, and Leviticus andHebrews pair nicely like a red
wine and a steak, or somethinglike that, and so, because of
that, you know, you get out ofLeviticus the strange world that
(02:58):
is the Bible, and particularlythe stranger world that is
Leviticus, which, by the way,has changed the way I read the
Old Testament and the NewTestament.
I mean, it's like you realize,when you sit in a book like
Leviticus, you understand whyit's pretty foundational.
It's one of the foundationalfive, you know, and so I say
that to say, going fromLeviticus into Hebrews and then
(03:20):
from Hebrews into Numbers in thefall, actually has a good flow
conceptually and I think willset us up well and then from
Hebrews into Numbers in the fallactually has a good flow
conceptually and I think willset us up well.
And then I think Numbers willset us up well potentially for
Luke in 2026.
So let's get way out ahead ofour skis here.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
That's right.
I mean, we do think ahead alittle bit.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
So we're going to start Hebrews.
Hebrews is going to take usfrom mid-February all the way
through the end of May, and oneof the things I'm most excited
for is Hebrews has a.
The essence of it is this ideaof what does it look like to
become unshakable in yourdiscipleship to Jesus, in your
faith in Christ, and so one ofthe ideas that I've been
(04:04):
considering, since I spent a lotof time in the book of
Philippians, is this idea ofgospel resilience, or even, to
take it further, gospelanti-fragility and I get that
from the book by Nicholas NassimTaleb, I believe is his name,
called Anti-Fragility, and theillustration I think is best,
for it is like you have thingsthat are fragile, like a
(04:28):
champagne glass, right.
You knock it off the table, ithits the ground and shatters
everywhere.
You have things that areresilient, like a sippy cup, a
kid's sippy cup.
You throw it against the wall,it maintains its form.
One of those old Nokia phones,that's right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
The brick phone that you have the snake on.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
They maintain their form through adversity.
That's a good definition ofresilience.
But then there's things thatare anti-fragile.
Your immune system isanti-fragile.
So, if you throw adversity atyour immune system, it might get
some setbacks, but it actuallycomes back stronger.
It's more than just resilient.
Your muscles are that way too.
(05:01):
You break your muscles down andthey actually rebuild back with
greater strength.
Relationships, healthyrelationships, are that way.
If you have rupture in arelationship and you repair it
properly, you have more trustand strength often in that
relationship than before.
So how can the gospel actuallycreate an anti-fragility in
disciples of Jesus and I thinkthe book of Hebrews really sets
(05:22):
us up for that for a gospelanti-fragility and I'm looking
forward to Hebrews really setsus up for that for a gospel,
anti-fragility, and I'm lookingforward to exploring that
together this spring.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, because, even as you're saying that, I'm
thinking about okay.
Well, yeah, you made theconnection between Leviticus and
Hebrews, and one of the thingsthat has historically made
Hebrews so hard to understandfor people is they don't
understand Leviticus.
That's right.
It's like if you don't havethat foundation from this is
what was going on with thesacrificial system and the
holiness codes, then it's notreally clear, like what's the
author of Hebrews getting at,like what are they trying to do?
(05:51):
But then you also have thesewarning passages and it's like,
okay, well, what?
How do we think about those?
Yeah, especially from aReformed perspective, where we
just our doctrinal commitments.
It kind of sounds like Paul,you know, not Paul, but well,
maybe depending on who you ask.
Or Luke or Apollos or somebody.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, are we going to spend a whole this is
self-control for Nate and Iright now that we're not going
to do that rabbit trail yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I'll circle back to this.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, that rabbit trail.
Yeah, I'll circle back to this.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, You're just those warningpassages.
I mean you've got to thinkabout what are we?
What are those?
How do those function in thebook?
How am I supposed to thinkabout those as a disciple,
Because they're prettystraightforward in some sense.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, the Hebrews really, I think, is trying to
protect us from really twothings that are that are, uh,
dangers.
One is the, the kind of the,the pressures that we experience
in following Jesus from theoutside, from from the culture
around us, that don't make youdecide, like in a crisis moment,
(06:54):
I don't want anything to dowith Jesus anymore, but they
just cause you to drift away Inthat language of drifting.
We all know, we all know thisidea that, like, without you
know, deliberate intentionalityto move in the direction of
faithfulness, drifting isactually probably a default mode
if we're not careful, and sothat's one of the dangers.
The other one is is thatthere's this real temptation to,
(07:17):
in critical moments, like maybepersecution for the Hebrews,
like these different things togo.
Is this really worth it?
Is this whole following Jesusthing really worth it?
Maybe it's not.
And kind of reconsider, and so Ithink it has something to do
with to speak into ourdeconstructing, deconverting and
dechurching phenomena in theUnited States right now which,
(07:41):
by the way, I think all three ofthose might be almost
synonymous in the Bible, likethere's no such thing as
somebody who's a Christianthat's not a part of a local
church in Scripture, right andso, and Hebrews would tell you
that, like, do not forsakegathering together as is the
habit of some.
And so there's just somethingabout Hebrews, and it's called a
gospel resilience, gospel,anti-fragility, in the face of
(08:04):
pressures and persecution.
That, I think, is a good wordfor us.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah Well, we'll look forward to it.
And to circle back from what Isaid a minute ago, mike Allen
and I, as part of this preview,we're going to be doing some
episodes, probably dealing withsome of these thornier issues in
a way that we don't have timefor on Sunday morning, but maybe
even tackling some of thoseauthorship questions.
It is a little weird that it'sthe one book in the New
Testament that we don't knowexactly who wrote it, because it
(08:30):
didn't have a name attached toit, and so there's a lot of
speculations.
And ultimately, the good newsis the interpretation of what is
being said in Hebrews does nothinge on whether it came from
Paul or whether it came from oneof the other people in that
orbit.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's great.
So helpful and interesting toexplore that, because authorial
intent typically matters ininterpreting Scripture.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So we've got Hebrews as kind of our big thing for the
spring but we've got some otherparallel tracks I mentioned.
This may or may not include you, but it might to some extent.
Is people may have noticed weswitched away from the New City
Catechism to doing the NiceneCreed.
And I think we explained itmaybe the first week, but just
to reiterate, a lot of things inthe evangelical world are sort
(09:17):
of circling around.
The 1700-year anniversary ofthe Council of Nicaea that was
in 325.
And so you know the EvangelicalTheological Society's national
conference.
That's the theme for it thisyear.
Some of the regionalconferences are using that as
the same theme.
Ben, you were mentioning youcould tell the listeners about
(09:37):
your friend in Izmir, which ismodern-day Nicaea right, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, I have a friend who lives in Turkey and does
work over there and he hasorganized a conference.
Basically, nicaea is inmodern-day Turkey and so it's
this conference for the1700-year anniversary of the
writing of the Nicene Creed.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, so it's a really foundational creed.
I mean, the Apostles' Creed is alittle bit earlier and there's
continuity between the two, butthe language of Nicaea has been
carefully crafted as a result ofthat conference in 325 AD, and
it has a you know, we're goingto be saying it, reciting it
together as our profession offaith every Sunday, and so it
(10:20):
felt like, well, we shouldprobably do some episodes kind
of digging into the theology ofit a little bit.
There's a strong part of whatsparked the idea.
For me is and we'll circle backto this there's going to be a
lot of circling in this podcast,but one of my PhD classes right
now is called TheologicalSystems and we have to go
through each of the majorsystems, slash traditions of
(10:42):
Christendom, and we started withRoman Catholics, and so one of
our textbooks was the CatholicCatechism, and the whole first
part of it is a commentary onthe Nicene Creed, and that's
what they use to teach basictheology.
It's like, oh okay, so theymight interpret it a little bit
differently than we would in aReformed Presbyterian context,
but there's something to hey,this has really stood the test
(11:04):
of time.
It's a really importantconfession of faith.
We ought to not just know it,but know what it means.
And so I think we're beingformed by reciting it every
Sunday and I hope people takethe encouragement to memorize it
you got 52 Sundays to work with, that's right but to actually
understand it in a little moredetail.
So we're going to sprinkle someepisodes in.
We haven't decided on the exactshape of it, but some of it
(11:26):
will be the historicalbackground.
Some of it's going to be thedeep dives on why is it worded
this way?
I think we have to answer.
Why does it say Catholic?
We used to have an asterisk atthe bottom, but there's reasons
why.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I'm eager for it.
I think somehow now we're onlylike four or five Sundays into
2025, but every time we'verecited it together as a people,
I get caught up in the momentof it.
It hasn't become rote.
It hasn't become white noise.
There's such a majesty to thelanguage of the.
Nicene Creed, and I actuallythink the length of it compared
(12:03):
to maybe, the Apostles' Creed isI don't know.
There's just something aboutthe length of it, right Even
that draws you up into it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It almost makes it feel like a different experience
Because, as much as Iappreciate the simplicity of the
New City Catechism, where wedid a question a week and worked
our way through it, sometimesit's like the question and
answer, it's like two sentencesand then you're on.
It's like we didn't linger init, not that we were supposed to
, but it just sort of made thatpart of the liturgy feel really
(12:35):
small.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And now it's actually like a really by having to do
the Nicene Creed.
It's this developed portion ofthe liturgy where we're slowing
down and reciting this thingtogether that millions of
Christians have recited inSunday services for 1,700 years.
Yeah, which is remarkable.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's part of, I think, my experience of getting
caught up in it.
It's like, wow, we stand in touse the language we believe in
one holy Catholic and apostolicchurch, right, and there's just
this, like there's a unity tothe body of Christ throughout
history and around the globetoday, when we stand with our
(13:14):
brothers and sisters and recitethis creed.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Right, and even to that point it's like.
You know.
I was reading it in theCatholic Catechism, and as much
as we would disagree withCatholics on a bunch, of things
we both agree on that creed andEastern Orthodox are going to
claim that you know, they'vebeen using that creed since it
was written and so it's like theEastern Orthodox.
And so the three broad streamsof Christendom Roman Catholics,
(13:39):
eastern Orthodox, protestantsthere's one thing they can agree
on, although there is that onephrase that is a little bit
divisive.
We won't get into the greatschism in detail right and we'll
use some more restraint.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
but yeah, that's good .
So we've got the Nicene Creedepisodes that'll be coming up
Also.
Maybe it's worth talking aboutthe.
We do our annual summer in thePsalms in June, and this summer
we're going to be spending thewhole month of June in Psalm 37.
So this hasn't worked outperfectly, but we've had a
(14:09):
practice of alternating betweentopical or thematic studies in
the Psalms and then taking on aPsalm or two Psalms and really
deep diving into that Was Psalm16, the last one.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
We spent the whole summer in that one.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yep, that's right.
And so Psalm 37,autobiographically speaking, I
spent unintentionally, I spentall of 2024 memorizing it, and
the reason why it took me all of2024 is because I was
distracted at points.
And it's 40 verses, it's prettylong, but I started memorizing
it because we were preachingthrough the Beatitudes and
(14:46):
Blessed are the meek comes fromPsalm 37.
And so I wanted to memorize itbefore we preached on that text,
and then I found myself justlingering in it for an entire
year and realizing it's a wisdompsalm and just experiencing the
wisdom for different seasons of2024 that I found my life that
were just happening in my life.
(15:07):
So, for just a simple example,psalm 37 talks about justice a
good bit, and I was in a coursewhere I one of my main projects
was to write a theology ofjustice and I've got some pretty
clear, now way more clear.
But I'm pretty opinionated onjustice because I think there's
a lot of nonsense about justiceout there today, and so living
(15:29):
in the psalm that says the Lordloves justice was really helpful
for me, and I could tell youprobably four or five other
anecdotes from my own personalexperience with this psalm.
So the way we're going to comeat this as a sermon series and
we'll probably have some podcastepisodes with it too but is
there is a future?
Psalm 37, verse 37 says there isa future for the man of peace,
(15:53):
and I think there's somethingabout Psalm 37 that orients us
towards the future actually, iscertain and sure and secure.
It's actually the present.
That's a little bit cloudy forus and so when you're in the
here and now, it feels like whatare we going to do?
But if you belong to Jesus, youknow the best is yet to come,
no matter what, no matter what.
(16:13):
And Psalm 37 kind of orientsyour gaze towards God's future
and I think, in a meaningful wayand then asks how should that
shape your present?
What should that mean for yourmoney, for generosity, for
justice, for how you deal withanxiety and anger and looking
and experiencing envy and allthese different things?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So that'll be good.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
So the Psalm 37 over the summer, this theme of there
is a future, that's right, we'renot going to speak past that.
But really the way we've beendoing the way we've been doing
the seasons on here is they'retied to the ministry calendar
and just the ebb and flow ofhaving a fall season where,
where you know, community groupsare meeting and all these
things are going on, orcommunities, and then we take a
(16:58):
dip through December and thenpart of January and then we kind
of ramp back up until May, andso we're trying to have the the
all of life podcast sort offollow, that ebb and flow.
And so we don't really plan todo much over the summer, but we
do want to.
We'll probably drop episodes inMay as preparation for that
summer in the series, and thenwe'll pick back up in August for
that Summer in the Psalmsseries, and then we'll pick back
(17:19):
up in August, september withsomething else that we'll tell
you about when we get closer tothen.
That's great.
We did mention this at thefront end, but just to kind of
well actually, I'm rememberingwe have one more thing that I do
know we're going to try to doand that's deep dives on common
rhythm practices.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
That's right.
Yeah, as a church we have thecommon rhythm which is the
tagline is a common life for acommon love, and one of the ways
that we have this kind of lifetogether as a people is by
practicing together.
And so we've got eightpractices four are weekly, four
(17:54):
are daily, and all of them arerooted in Scripture.
Every one of them you couldderive from the Bible, and
they're ways for us to put ourfaith into practice.
One of the things that Iexperienced when I'm around
friends that are Jewish orfriends that are Catholic, is
they have a distinction that wedon't use in Protestantism, and
maybe nor should we, but there'ssomething to it, which is you
can be a Jew and be a practicingJew or a Catholic.
(18:19):
That's a practicing Catholic,and then you can kind of just be
like a non-practicing Catholicor non-practicing Jew.
Protestants don't allow forthat One, because we have a
higher emphasis on faith, onbelief, like if you don't
believe the things you're not inkind of a thing.
But two, we just don't use thatlanguage of being I'm a
practicing Presbyterian.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You never hear that.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But I think there's something interesting to that.
But we call medicalprofessionals, lawyers,
healthcare professionals.
They're practicing I practicemedicine, I practice law, that
kind of thing.
So there's something reallysignificant about do you
practice your faith or not?
That's actually the distinctionbetween a practicing Jew or
practicing Catholic and anon-practicing is.
(19:03):
Does it matter to you, like, isit going to cost you something?
Are you going to give yourselfto it?
And so at New City we arepracticing disciples of Jesus.
We really do put our faith intopractice through prayer and
scripture and rest and feast andfast and these other practices
that we do, and scripture andrest and feast and fast, and
these other practices that we do.
So we thought, well, let's helpcontinue to press in as a
congregation and really have apattern of pressing into these
(19:32):
practices on an annual rhythm,so that we have a calendar, that
kind of lines and maps onto thecommon rhythm practices.
And so you'll see, the nexttime that you and I talk, nate,
we'll be doing a deep dive onthe scripture practice and we've
got some of these otherpractices lined up according to
the annual calendar and howthese practices kind of fit with
everything.
And then we have the bookend,which is our seasons of rest,
(19:55):
where we pause and we reflect,which is when we use the all of
life guide.
And so we do that twice a yearand then we've got these eight
practices stretched outthroughout the other months of
the year.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, and part of them being practices.
Sometimes the joke is, like youmentioned, doctors and lawyers
like, oh, you haven't gotten itdown yet, you're still just
practicing.
It's like, no, there's anelement to where and I won't
share the full anecdote, butjust an experience that my dad
had with my mom and a healthcareprofessional over the weekend
where they're trying to figureout something going on with her
(20:27):
and the doctor was just like,yeah, people are different.
Different people respond todifferent things.
Sometimes you know people haveyou think they have this one
thing and but they don't havethese symptoms.
And the doctor was just likethat's why they call it a
practice.
Wow.
So he was sort of justadmitting the limits of his own
knowledge, but just being like,yeah, there's this, the way he
was using it.
It was like there's this senseof you're further refining it by
(20:50):
experience.
And so, even though, yeah, heis a medical professional, he's
at least aware that it's notcookie cutter, it's not one size
fits all, it's we're practicingin the sense of we're getting
better and better and better atit as we go, just you know, like
a musician practices piano,even if they already have.
They already have it downbecause they're trying to get
better, and so, yes, I thinkthat's some of our philosophy
(21:11):
behind it is, you're neverreally going to master the
scripture practice.
It's like I got it down now,that's right, right, right.
It's like none of them aredesigned for achievement in the
sense of, yeah, you just have tomaster it and then you can move
on, and then you do the commonrhythm plus and it's these 16
things, that's right.
Totally new and different.
Yeah, that's really well said.
(21:32):
So in some sense it's like yeah, we're doing deep dives now,
but Lord willing, depending onhow things play out with our
calendars, we would do this samerhythm again next year.
And we wouldn't be like oh, werecorded a scripture practice
podcast last year, because Ithink if people go through our
archives they'll find well,we've done them before, that's
right, we haven't done it indepth on every single one, but
(21:54):
it's not really a new thing.
So we're trying to do the Inlight of the way we've changed
and grown in the last couple ofyears.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, that's well said.
So, Nate, as we land the plane,tell us about your PhD and
maybe tell us what you'restudying and kind of where you
are in this particular semester.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, well yeah, and we'll have to exchange war
stories.
I'm in what I hope is my lastyear of coursework for a PhD in
theological studies, so Istarted this.
This journey really started.
The possibility of it startedin the spring of 21, but I
didn't start classes untilspring of 23.
(22:36):
And I've got two classes thisspring Seminar on Theological
Systems that I already mentioned, where part of the way Dallas
Seminary wants to form people astheologians is they want them
to understand all the waysChristians have thought about
theology, and not so much thatthey then say well then, this is
the correct way to do it.
(22:57):
It's you need to familiarizeyourself with the different
systems so you know thedifference.
So I've got a presentation onLutheranism in a couple of weeks
because they wanted you topresent on systems you weren't
familiar with.
And I have no connection toLutheranism in my past or
probably my future.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Meanwhile I was born and baptized as a Lutheran.
I know On the eighth day of thetribe of Melanchthon.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I have to use that.
I'll run my presentation by you, you can make sure it's all
sound.
So I've got that and then runmy presentation by you and make
sure it's all.
That's great, it's all sound.
So I've got that and I've got areally fascinating class on
historiography and hermeneutics,which are fancy words for the
writing of history and theinterpretation of texts like
scripture.
And so just doing a deep diveon how do we think about writing
(23:41):
about the past, which is reallyjust another version of
interpretation, how do we makesense.
How do we find meaning in thepast, how do we find meaning in
a text those sorts of thingswhich everything I said right
there is controversial, just?
In the sense of like, if youput a bunch of PhD students in a
room like, what do you mean by?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
meaning and what do you mean by finding it in the
text?
What if you put it in the text?
Finding it in the text?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, what if you put it in the text?
Right, exactly.
So yeah, that's kind of myspring, the fall.
Hopefully I finish things out.
But my dissertation work is onthe flesh, so I'm trying to
argue for a specific way ofunderstanding where the flesh
fits into our theology.
Not really as a practical level,because it's a dissertation,
but in more of a.
How do we situate the flesh?
(24:29):
Is it part of anthropology,part of what it means to be
human?
Is it part of our doctrine ofsin?
Is the flesh synonymous withsin, nature, or is it somehow
distinct from it?
And then, what does it mean tothink of redemption, to think of
salvation, to think of how doesthat impact my flesh?
Is part of becoming a Christian, getting rid of the flesh, is
(24:50):
it I'm at war with the flesh?
Maybe based on how I'm readingRomans, but what does that
actually mean?
What does it mean that the wordbecame flesh?
And that is actually wherethings get really complicated.
There's a lot of things Johncould have said.
The word became a human, theword became a man, soma said the
word became a human.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
the word became a man .
Soma embodied the word becameembodied.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
but he chose to use that very loaded term flesh that
he knows how Paul uses it andhe still uses it.
So really it's linking all ofthose usages together and either
arguing that it's the sameconcept, and this is the way to
understand the concept, or it'sdifferent concepts.
But that's for me to figure outin the dissertation phase.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Oh, I'm eager to learn from you as you keep going
.
That's great.
Well, I am in a similar.
My coursework is tapering atthis point.
I've still got a course.
I've got two this semester.
One is qualitative research.
I did quantitative researchlast semester and it about
killed me.
I like to boil it down it'slike quantitative and
(25:51):
qualitative is stats and stories, and I am not a numbers person,
I'm a words person.
I'm not a stats person, I'm astories person, and so I'm very
eager for this class, becausequalitative research is exactly
what I want to do mydissertation on, and so I'm
doing a PhD in counseling andthe people will ask me look, why
do you want to do that?
(26:11):
And the I don't have an endgame.
That's the thing there's.
There's not like a door, that's.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I was going to say I should.
I should say the same thing,because that's the question I
get asked all the time too iswhat are you going to do when
you're done?
Yes, and it's like yes, andit's like well done.
Right now, my graduation is2029.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So I don't 2026 is kind of a stretch to be thinking
about, right, totally, yeah.
And one of the things that'sbeen clear, clear, clarified to
me, which I've been thankful for, is I really want to teach
pastors psychology and I want toteach counselors theology, and
I think that both of those twogroups of people being formed in
each other's disciplines canreally benefit.
And I've found that to be trueto my experience being both a
(26:53):
pastor and a counselor whodelves deeply into both theology
and psychology.
And the win for somebody likeme is you don't really have to
be very good at either of thosedisciplines, you just have to be
better than the other group,because they're not going to be
very well versed in it.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You probably had a similar experience to me and
I've commented on this to MikeAllen, but DTS and RTS at least
the RTS you went to were verysimilar in that it was two
groups of students there.
There were pastors orpastors-in-training getting
their MDiv or THM and there werecounselors and early on they're
all in the same classestogether and they don't like
(27:28):
each other.
These are the truth, people,these are the feelings people,
right, right and it's like butyou guys would be so much better
if you could actually listen toand learn from each other,
rather than just staying in yourlike separate camps.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
You got it.
That's right.
So, uh, and, and what's beencool is, I've experienced
pastors very eager to learncounseling and psychology, and I
think one of the reasons forthat is we live in a mental
health crisis right now, whichis, for the record, not ordinary
.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
We live in an extraordinary moment, it's still
unprecedented times.
Yes, that's right, theprecedented times are not coming
back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah this is the most anxious generation that's ever
lived.
And so pastors, I think, arefeeling that because they're
getting eaten alive by trying tocare for the people in their
congregations and feeling out oftheir depth to do that well.
And then I think counselorsprobably feel a little bit less
the need for theology.
But I am deeply persuaded thatwhen you're counseling people,
(28:30):
you're exposed to some thingslike evil and suffering at
levels that you I mean whenyou're hearing stories of abuse
and things like that.
If you don't have a robustdoctrine of evil and theodicies
and an understanding of God'ssovereignty and how suffering is
formative, or you knowhermiteology, if you don't
(28:52):
understand how sin works, likeyou're going to think everything
is because of your family oforigin and your cultural context
and like.
So there's just all of thesethings that I think counselors
could benefit from theology andpastors could benefit from
psychology.
So I'm eager to press into that.
But I've got more clarity on mydissertation, which is I really
want to do a qualitativeproject where I study my
(29:14):
elevator speeches, the spiritualexperiences of business
executives.
If I double click on that, whatI mean is I believe that the
gifts, power and presence andfruit of the Spirit are for not
only as not in the church only,but also as the church in the
world.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
And so my two case studies are Daniel and Joseph.
Okay, they're both faithfulpeople of God that are in pagan
contexts Joseph in Egypt, danielin Babylon and they're both
recognized as being one that hasthe spirit of God in them and
(29:54):
that gives them extraordinarygifts and skills and abilities
to actually lead.
Administratively, of course,they're interpreting dreams for
Pharaoh and stuff like that, butthey're also doing like
incredible leadership, executiveleadership roles, and so I want
to study how could, how doesthe Holy Spirit lead
(30:14):
organizational leaders in waysthat helps flourishing for them
and the people that they lead,helps them endure the stressors
and burdens of organizationalleadership, helps them be more
resilient, helps them in momentswhen they're in a crisis or
trying to problem solve, or whatdoes it mean to actually rely
on the Holy Spirit to do yourwork in a non-Christian
(30:35):
environment?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, so yeah.
Well, even as you're talkingabout that, I'm like you know,
we're not necessarily two sidesof the same coin, but our
dissertation projects arecomplimentary in the sense of
Flesh and spirit.
Flesh and spirit, because I'mlike, yeah, you know, big
passage for me is a feet orgalatians five, where it's
talking about works of the flesh.
It's like contrasted with worksof the spirit, it's like okay.
So you're basically askingpeople how they've not relied on
(30:57):
the flesh in their businessendeavors but you're framing it,
you know, around the spirit,whereas I'm framing things
around the flesh but, butthey're very that's, I've not
thought about that mutually,mutually beneficial.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
We can co-author something at the end.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
There you go, there's , there's, there's something
that we've talked about thatbefore, and so hopefully,
hopefully, we'll get theopportunity to Ben, it's been
great catching up with you andjust hearing a little bit about
what's coming up for a new cityin the spring and I look forward
(31:33):
to getting back together nextweek.
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