October 22, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, Senior Pastor Damein Schitter and Theologian in Residence Michael Allen tackle the question, "can Scripture truly govern the conscience, and what does that mean for preaching?" By diving into the Westminster Confession of Faith, they emphasize the immense responsibility preachers carry in conveying God's word accurately. They also uncover the advantages of expository preaching and discuss how the symbolic clerical collar reflects a preacher’s submission to divine authority. Additionally, they provide historical insights to help you understand how the Westminster Confession sought to clarify pastoral roles amidst the tumultuous mix of 17th-century culture, politics, and religion.
The challenge, in navigating contemporary issues like sexuality and politics, is to offer practical wisdom without overstepping bounds. By balancing guidance with humility and leaning on the Christian community, study, and prayer, Damein and Mike emphasize the collaborative effort it takes for believers to grow in wisdom and navigate life's complexities. They also reflect on the ongoing work of Jesus as prophet, priest, and king, highlighting His resurrection power and the importance of relying on the Holy Spirit. By recognizing God's strength through our weaknesses, we find faith and assurance in the transformative power of divine intervention in our lives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Well, in 20-2, the Westminster Confession of Faith
makes this powerful statementabout the authority of Scripture
over the conscience.
So, mike, first of all, can youstart by unpacking what it
means when the confession saysthat God alone is Lord of the
(00:30):
conscience and how thatprinciple plays out in the
context of preaching?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah.
So preachers are playing withfire.
We speak, people listen andthey take it seriously.
They don't always like it, theydon't always follow it and they
take it seriously.
They don't always like it, theydon't always follow it, but
preaching purports to be theword of God spoken to the people
of God, and that's a dangerousthing.
And what we see here is thiscognizance of that reality that
(00:59):
a preacher can exploit thatright calling, if they seek to
say what they think, as thoughthat were what the Lord says.
Now, of course, the preacherdoes mean to convey what he
believes the Word says, how he'sinterpreted it, how he's
prayerfully studied it, how hebelieves it's meant to build up
(01:21):
that particular congregation ofthe Church of Christ.
But there's always that momentwhere you can press beyond, you
can add or supplement, you cantweak or modify.
And it's telling how often inthe Bible there's a warning,
whether it's in Deuteronomy oragain at the end of the entire
Bible, at Revelation, thewarning about adding or
(01:43):
subtracting even the smallestelement.
And that's crucial forpreachers to remember, to the
extent that we go beyond whatthe Word says and bind someone's
conscience so that they feelthat God demands something of
them If we go beyond what Godactually authorizes us to do and
to say, we're taking the Lord'sname in vain, we're breaking
(02:06):
the third commandment, we'repurporting to treat our opinions
, which may or may not beinformed and wise, but
nonetheless aren't divine, andthat's dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah.
So if you think about it, thenit seems like this is one of the
reasons why, in many traditions, choosing a passage and
preaching through the passage asa regular diet of preaching, as
opposed to primarily topicalsermons, would help us stay in
our lane, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and there's a way we can think about that that
the Bible provides both a normand a limit, as one theologian
put it.
It provides a norm.
We're called to teach all of it.
Paul models this, the idea thathe conveys to the church in
Ephesus, in Acts 20.
He doesn't feel good leaving ayoung church till he's taught
what he calls the whole counselof God.
(02:57):
So we want to cover all of it,not just our favorite things,
not just the hot topics of theday.
On the other hand, it providesa limit hear and know further,
and I and most preachers, wehave thoughts on other things.
Some of them are informed, somemight even be accurate, others
aren't and surely won't be.
(03:18):
But more importantly, we're notcalled, we're not equipped and
we're not authorized to offer ordispense our mere opinions,
however good they might be.
And so routinely sticking topreaching through books of the
Bible is kind of the bread andbutter, as you put it.
That's a great way to make surewe're covering the norm.
(03:40):
Yeah, and it's not a guarantee,but it's a help that we would
stick to the limits of Scripturetoo.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, I'm thinking of the clerical collar right now,
and my limited understanding isthat at least part of the
reasoning for wearing theclerical collar would be to
remind the preacher or thepastor and others that we are
bound with the words we speak tothe word of God and not our own
opinion.
Is that pretty accurate?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I mean the symbolism of it is very much
this idea that one's mouth andvoice is in fact governed by
another.
It's a very humbling thing.
It's not terribly ancient,that's no knock on it, but it's
symbolic of something that eventraditions that don't tend to go
(04:28):
to wearing the collar they findother ways to celebrate.
The fact that Presbyterians,for instance, in the 16th and
17th centuries, made a point ofreferring to their elected,
ordained leaders as ministerswas really intentional.
A minister is a secretary.
(04:48):
A minister is someone under theauthority of another, in the
same way that there's adifference between executive and
administrative exercise.
And that's simply meant toshape the mentality of the
minister themselves, knowingthat they're someone who comes
in the name and authority ofanother, of Jesus, and to shape
(05:11):
the perceptions of thecongregation To realize this
isn't a genius, this isn'tsomeone who's just got the most
sanctity or the most intellector all the right answers.
This is someone who I listen tobecause Jesus has sent him to
do certain things and to speakcertain things to me.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, that's so helpful.
And when we think about thehistorical context of the
Westminster Confession of Faith,it's probably important to say
as well that the WestminsterConfession of Faith, in this
instance and in all of thedocumentation that it's speaking
to, is summarizing the Bible'steaching, right, of course, the
Bible is the one that teaches usthat.
(05:50):
It is the authoritative voicein the life of the Christian,
and so the preacher, which is agift to the church, as you said,
their role is to be a minister,not some genius to infuse their
ideas above and beyond thescriptures themselves.
So, with that little bit ofcaveat, can you give us some
more historical context here,like, for example, what
(06:13):
historical or theologicalconcerns might have driven the
Westminster divines to includethis protection of the
conscience in the confession?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah.
So I mean, this was one ofseveral times in church history
when the religious and thepolitical and the cultural and
the economic are very muchentwined and not surprisingly,
people always run to pastors andpriests, to bishops and to
popes to sort of encourage acause.
(06:43):
To sort of encourage a cause.
And this is trying to kind ofdemarcate or draw lines between
what's appropriate instructionand not just appropriate but
necessary and what'sinappropriate not just
inappropriate but actuallysinful and blasphemous In a real
sense.
The clergy need to teach thewhole counsel of God.
(07:04):
They're duty bound to it.
Failing to do so is negligence,it's pastoral malpractice, and
(07:28):
that means there are going to besome uncomfortable things
political disagreementsregarding things like monarchy
and republicanism, a host ofdifferent liturgical beliefs
about what worship and pietyshould look like.
And the key thing here istrying to delineate what's a
pastor absolutely essentiallygoing to say and when are they
going to stop.
And then, as now, I think wecould say you know, in modern
terms, a microphone is aterribly seductive thing.
(07:50):
Other people want someone who'sgoing to be a guru, and those
of us who talk behindmicrophones find that they keep
asking for more and we keepwanting to pontificate, and
that's as true for a Protestantas for any Roman Catholic bishop
or pope.
(08:11):
And so this is really meant toconstrain and to shape the
expectations of the clergy.
At the same time, there's anunstated sort of flip If the
clergy aren't supposed to dosomething, that doesn't mean
that thinking doesn't matter.
So this also presumes a certainview of lay people that
(08:33):
Christian men and women whoaren't ordained pastors they're
not bishops, they're notministers they're nonetheless
instructed by God's Word, builtup and equipped by their pastors
, and they're given the gift ofthe Holy Spirit to help them
discern.
And this presumes an educatedlaity who are going to connect
dots.
If a pastor is not going todevelop every policy statement
(08:57):
for you and your family or youand your nation, that means
Christian men and women need tobe standing in the gap and doing
that further work.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, well, what I love about that is that it shows
the beauty of the entire bodyof Christ, and the preacher, the
minister, has a very importantbut narrow role in the ministry
of the laity, as you said, inthe world.
As you know, at New City we endthe benediction every week with
you are sent, and there are alot of reasons why we do that.
(09:27):
But one of these realities isthat we believe that God is
sending his people out to takewhat they've just heard and work
it out in faithfulness as theypursue loving their neighbor in
all the various places that hesends them.
And you know, one of the thingsthat fascinates me, I'm thinking
about some studies that I'veread in the last handful of
years that show that even theyounger generations, who are
(09:50):
still coming to church, whensurveyed they say the reason
that they are attracted to achurch and stay at that church
is the preaching, and in onesense, that makes sense to me.
In another sense, there are alot of cultural realities that
might surprise us, especially ata church like New City that
does more than a 15 to 25-minutesermon.
And so when we think about thefact that people do value
(10:14):
preaching, they value coming andhearing someone, hopefully,
preach the Word of God To yourpoint earlier.
There's this reality that theperson speaking behind a
microphone that can puff us upin a sense, and you mentioned
already some of the historicalrealities that were at play, of
(10:36):
why the Westminster divinesfound it important to put this
in the confession.
So, when we think about today,what ways do you think preachers
could overstep these boundaries?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think if we talkabout the word is both norm and
limit, there's ways we can gowrong on both sides, aren't
there?
I mean, on the one hand, wemight fail to address things the
Bible does and people in ourown tradition.
They've done this in remarkablefashion and I don't think
(11:08):
that's a sign they're uniquelyheinous.
That's them giving in to whatprobably all of us in various
ways do.
So infamously in the 19thcentury Southern preachers and
many others.
They believed that you oughtnot preach against the
institution of slavery, forinstance.
And the Bible doesn't lay out aspecific program for exactly
(11:33):
how you end slavery in itsvarious forms, but the teaching
of the image of God, the notionof how you care for the least of
these, those and other beliefs.
They remarkably shape theChristian imagination for how
you would think about reactingto that kind of sad, corrupt
cultural reality.
(11:53):
And not surprisingly,christians were the first to
challenge it and to lead to itsabolition in so much of the
world.
Sadly, many in our circles inthe American South they believe
that was wrong.
They believe that was to getout of the church's lane.
And they were wrong when theythought that, because the Bible
teaches things that challengethe foundations of that, an
(12:17):
error by getting too specific ortoo particular, as if there's
but one policy as a way tofaithfully fulfill what the
Bible teaches.
So the Bible does tell us thatwe're to raise our children in
the nurture and admonition ofthe Lord.
That's not a completeeducational program.
(12:40):
And so even at a relativelysmall part of the global Church
of Christ like New City, we havefolks going about it in a bunch
of different ways Public school, private school, homeschool,
you name it and sometimes that'sshaped by resources and
opportunities, but often it'sjudgments by parents about the
(13:01):
best wise way to do a commonconcern with regard to a
particular kid.
They may even make differentdecisions about various kids in
their family, still believingthey're going after the main
concerns but finding sort ofparticular policies for each
child to enflesh that thedangers.
(13:21):
If you say this one approach,this is the one way we can get
into that.
When we talk about dating andmarriage, when we talk about
budgeting and finance, when wetalk about education and
schooling or politics and voting, and to the extent that we're
going beyond what the Bibleactually says and we're
(13:43):
including our judgment, our readof circumstance, our approach
to opportunities, we're writingchecks in the Lord's name and
account, not our own, and that'sa serious pastoral error,
precisely because we can'tpresume that every person in the
room will observe thedistinction.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, there's so many helpful things about that.
Naming both pitfalls that couldeasily be fallen into by the
preacher, one you said wasfailing to speak to what the
Bible actually does clearlyspeak to.
So you had mentioned slavery.
The reality is, is that theright thing to do when preaching
(14:29):
the Bible, particularly thedoctrine of the image of God and
other things, was to condemnthe notion that we can own
people or that certain humanbeings were more valuable than
other human beings?
Now, how the institution ofslavery, of which many nations
was a significant part of theirrevenue, to speak to the
complexity of that, that was forChristians in government and
(14:52):
policy, not to the preacher.
Maybe some common issues todaymight be how do we speak to
issues of sexuality?
The Bible speaks very clearlyabout those particular issues.
We should be increasinglyarticulate.
I think we should beincreasingly bold, but also
(15:13):
loving.
To speak against the fact thatGod has created human beings in
such a way and to go against hisdesign is actually not good for
you.
It's not good for society.
Well, there's a lot to saythere without getting into what
that means for particularpolicies, at least from the
pulpit.
So there are other issues wecould speak to, but that might
(15:33):
be a modern day issue, and whenI continue to think about that,
I think about the beauty ofChristians wanting to come to
church and hear their pastorsgive guidance on how to follow
Jesus in various areas of life.
And right now, in this season,we just finished a series on
(15:53):
following Jesus in politics.
We're in an election season andso, on the one hand, I can see
that people would want to hearfrom their pastors.
They would want something moredirective, and I think there's
something good in that.
But the thing that I don't thinkwe want is actually the other
pitfall you said, which wasgetting outside of our lane.
It would be speaking to thingsthat we don't have the expertise
(16:14):
, experience or calling to speakto.
And what I actually think andyou can tell me if this analogy
works or not or where it mightbreak down but I actually think
when I've had some conversationsin the past where people have
challenged me or honestly justbeen curious why don't you speak
more directly to the specifics,even like who should we vote
(16:37):
for that type of thing myresponse has been twofold.
One that's outside of my lane,and I'll quote the passage here
that we're talking about in theWestminster Confession of Faith.
The other thing is I try to letthem know I don't think you
really want this.
In other words, like you don'twant me speaking to things I
have no idea what I'm talkingabout, but just because I read a
(16:59):
few articles and have anopinion that I can speak to, and
, like another example would be,you don't want me giving you
medical advice, for example.
In the same way I can speak onthe goodness of the body, I can
speak on how the incarnationteaches us that I can speak
about the goodness of the body.
I can speak on how theIncarnation teaches us that.
I can speak about the realityof prayers of healing.
I can speak to what the Biblesays as it relates to what might
(17:22):
be parallel to medical advice.
But as soon as I go intomedical advice, I'm out of my
lane.
So how would you speak to that?
I mean, do you think that's adecent analogy?
How would you add to that?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that is a common problem and I
think people, when they expressfrustration, in reality the
frustration under the voicedquestion or protest is really.
We live in a complex world.
And these are challengingthings.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And we really do need help.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, that's right, these are challenging things and
we really do need help.
Now the pastor can't be all thehelp, right, and that's sadly a
little dispiriting to somepeople who thought coming to
church would do the trick.
Yeah, but the pastor can be apart and the Christian community
and study of the Bible andprayer and over time God uses
(18:12):
those things to make people wise.
And over time God uses thosethings to make people wise.
And the reality is, you know,you think of what Paul says in
Romans 12.
He describes how you're not tobe conformed to the world and
its ways.
You're to be transformed by therenewing of your mind.
And it doesn't say so you'llimmediately know all the right
things to do, but it rather saysso that by testing, you might
(18:35):
be able to discern the will ofGod.
In other words, the end goal isnot intuitive, immediate
awareness of all the rightanswers, but it's being so
transformed and being soactively unconformed to the
world that you're capable ofthis active responsibility that
will be with you the rest ofyour life.
(18:56):
I mean, the reality is most ofour serious questions, almost
all the time, they're not blackand white.
The black and white ones, thankGod, are so clear that even
when we do wrong, we at leastknow that we've done something
that's dire and evil.
The reality is so much of lifeinvolves discernment and mature
(19:17):
judgment.
And that's tiresome.
That's something that many ofus struggle with, especially
people who desire greater senseof certainty.
And some people are heavilywired and predisposed that way,
and a pastor wants to be awareof that.
They need to be aware of that.
They don't want to deliverfalse certainty that might sort
(19:40):
of make people think as though,because they've heard a right
trope or cliche, they've arrived.
The pastor wants to lead themas pilgrims on the way so they
grow in discernment and invitethem to be a part of the church
body discerning.
Grow in discernment and invitethem to be a part of the church
body discerning.
So at a place like New City,we're gifted with people who
have a much better eye than I doas to the economic facets of
(20:04):
public policy, people who have amuch better understanding than
I do of the inner dynamics ofthe healthcare system or family
dynamics, and they can speakinto and be resources as I and
others try and wrestle withcomplex issues for my personal
(20:27):
life, for public life.
And the takeaway doesn't haveto be that we have to agree on
everything, but that we canbless one another and help one
another.
Good households and families,good cities all these metaphors
for the people of God in the NewTestament.
They involve give and take andpeople bringing various gifts,
(20:48):
and that can shape the way inwhich a people equipped by
pastors bring their own giftsand strengths and knowledge to
bless one another.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes, well, I love that, and I think that something
you said in the middle of thathas concerned some people, which
is what do you mean that we candisagree?
I just think it's so amazingthat you spoke to the complexity
of the world, and I regularlyfind people shocked that
Christians can disagree on veryimportant things.
(21:19):
And the word you used wasdiscernment, and I think that
one thing that is true of allChristians, of all people, is
that in order to discern well,your desires have to be ordered
properly.
I do think that that is part ofthe beauty of preaching is that
every week, when we experienceit, one of the things that
should be happening is the Wordof God, reordering our desires.
(21:43):
The Word of God and its properapplication, not only reordering
our desires, but also remindingus of the goodness of God, of
His gifts to us and the task tobe sent out into the world to do
the work of discerning.
But the reality is, desire comesfirst, discerning comes next,
and then, of course, we woulddiscern things based on the
(22:03):
different gifts, training andexperience we have, and it seems
that there are so many obviousexamples where we see this as a
good thing.
For example, if anadministration, a government
administration.
If they have to decide on apolicy, we would hope that they
actually create a team with amultidisciplinary approach.
(22:24):
This is why think tanks existin some measure is how do we get
people together to think aboutreally complicated issues that
are serving the same mission buthave different training and
therefore opinions, and maydisagree.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, and I mean you can just take one case study.
There are some thingsChristians need to agree on, and
we're aiming at conformity.
There are other things thatbeing a Christian in no way
guarantees conformity.
So just take a case studyexample.
Like immigration.
There's some basic beliefs thatthe Bible instills that
Christians ought to all own astheirs.
(23:00):
We care for those whom God hasgiven us a special
responsibility for.
So I have a responsibility tomy family, to my town and to my
nation that I don't for everyother family in town.
That's appropriate.
At the same time, we're calledto have a remarkable sympathy
and a generous spirit toward theother, the stranger, the
(23:21):
migrant and especially theparticularly vulnerable.
How those two things are goingto balance gets remarkably
tricky, though, and notsurprisingly.
Economists might have differenttakes on how much a given
country or municipality canreceive immigrants before you're
(23:42):
actually not blessing them inthe same way and caring for your
own.
Some might think you can handlefar more.
Others be a little morecautious and less.
That's not a theologicaljudgment, that's an economic
judgment, something I'm utterlyincapable of personally.
So we're going to want to treatpeople and speak of people in a
(24:02):
Christian manner.
We're going to want to upholdChristian principles, both of
caring for those God hasspecially given us
responsibility for, as well asgenerosity so far as we can
offer to others.
But I'm not going to besurprised that we're going to
have different reads of thecurrent situation, of what would
(24:23):
be optimal, what would bepossible and the best pathways
to get there.
And, like you said, that'swhere we're going to need people
with different perspective andexpertise, the kind of expertise
the average Christian much lesspastor sure can't have on
everything.
We're going to need people withthe expertise of law
enforcement, what they can andcan't manage, local jobs,
(24:46):
economies, what's possible,social services, a host of
issues that are going to shape,hopefully, how people think
about applying those biblicalprinciples and actually enacting
policy.
And so much of that is goingwell beyond the basic biblical
teachings that are challengingenough about loving not only
(25:07):
your own but also the other.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
That's right, so good , so it's a really helpful case
study.
So, in summary, it really speaksto a number of things that
we've spoken to, and this is howI think.
One is that, in order for us torely on Christian principles,
that when we hear of immigrationissues, these are image bearers
, these are human beings, and sothere's a way in which we can
(25:33):
hear or read or watch on thenews that is actually designed
to evoke fear in us, and in thatplace, it's easy to view that
human being as other and lessthan a person to be defeated, a
person to be defended against.
But when we come to worship andwe have our hearts reordered,
(25:56):
we begin to see them as humanbeings again, image bearers, and
then, all of a sudden, we seethat love is really what we're
called to love of neighbor.
But to go from that to workingout the policies, working out
all the dynamics that you talkedabout, that is something
altogether different, somethingthat ought not be worked out
from the pulpit and from thepreacher alone, of course, but
(26:20):
there's something reallyimportant about this dynamic and
, I think, really wise, and Ithink we want this.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, and I think that fits with something that,
with some regularity, we talkabout a good deal at New City
this idea that goes back intothe Reformed tradition that the
church is not only gathered butalso scattered and sent.
Yeah, and a lot of peopleassume that if the preacher in
the public gathering isn'tsaying something, this is our
(26:50):
take then the church isdisengaged Right, and that's to
presume that the church existsonly in as much as we're
gathered together.
The preacher's forming people,the service is shaping people by
God's grace, so that they cango out, be scattered, they can
be sent by God, they can becarrying their formation, their
(27:13):
gifts, their resources, thecapital they've got in every
possible sense to discern, tomake prudential judgments and
hopefully to love sacrificiallyin wise and well ways.
And that won't all look thesame, but that kind of scattered
and sent reality is the finalgoal here.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
That's right, absolutely, yeah, all right.
So one of the reasons we wantedto record this podcast was
because I think that many peoplein general and certainly in our
congregation they haven't beenintroduced to these types of
categories, and so some peoplemight not think about it.
Others might be curious as towhy we don't speak more directly
to these issues than others,and then there may be some
(27:55):
people who are frustrated thatwe don't and, to your last point
, may think that by not speakingto it, we're somehow skirting
an issue or backing away fromboldness.
So, all of that to say, I wantto affirm some of that.
Insofar as people arefrustrated, I want to affirm
some of it in that I think itgets to something important,
which is that the church shouldbe a prophetic voice in society,
(28:18):
and the thing is, is that thingwe should be able to agree upon
?
But many people believe that inorder to be a prophetic voice,
that requires speaking directlyto political and social issues
that affect our daily lives,from the pulpit or from up front
.
So when we think about that,how do we reconcile the need for
(28:38):
moral clarity on certain issueswith the confession's stance
that we've been speakingpositively about on not binding
consciences on matters where theBible is silent or at least not
prescriptive.
How do we manage that tension?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Well, I think one help is the way the Bible itself
models this.
There are spots, of course,where there is just a
straightforward command.
On the other hand, you readPhilemon.
When Paul is addressing thissituation, he does not offer a
(29:12):
global principle.
He rather, in teaching basicbeliefs about not just human
identity but Christian identityand shared identity in Christ,
even between the elite and thepoor, or slave masters and
slaves, he's leading people toimagine their situation
(29:33):
differently so they can takeownership and responsibility for
doing what he doesn't exactlyname, that is, that a slave
ought to be freed.
And so often we'll see the Bibleaddresses a matter by going
underneath it or around it.
There are moments for hit thenail on the head.
(29:54):
It gets old if that's the onlytool in the toolkit.
So it's not surprising thatJesus, far more often than he,
will overturn tables and callpeople a pit of vipers, he will
rather provide parables and hismodel, and that seems to have
(30:17):
caught the apostles and thewritings of the New Testament.
They seem to use differenttools of instruction to shape
and form people, and that'smeant not just to be the content
we look at and pass on, but amodel for how we do so.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
I think that looking atdifferent parts of the scripture
that are normative, that teachus normative ways of engaging
the culture, particularly aspreachers, is a really wise
thing to do, while alsorecognizing there are moments
where the prophets and Jesus, asyou say, speak directly, sort
(30:54):
of nail on the head, on the nosesort of thing.
But it seems to me that to makethose examples normative is
honestly very tempting, andthere's something attractive
about it, especially in ourmoment where pundits are winning
the day and we all can struggleat times, no matter where we
fall politically, to feel thatour view of the culture as being
(31:16):
stolen from us as Christians.
It sort of brings up at leastin me, there's a weird
attractiveness to be able tohave that zinger, to be able to
have the tweetable phrase, andso I wonder if we think about
that as a common temptation, butmaybe one that's even more
tempting now.
Maybe the last word we couldsay is to anyone listening, but
(31:41):
maybe especially to preachersand to those training to be
preachers what should weparticularly be mindful of in
the coming months and years?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
along those lines, Well, I think the most important
thing is to have hope.
The reason that we tend to gobeyond what we should, the
reason that it feels really goodto have a zinger and to
castigate somebody, is,ultimately, it's coming from a
place of fear.
Not all fear is bad, but thisis a kind of fear that's
unproductive.
It's a fear of man, not of God.
(32:14):
It's a fear of circumstancethat's beyond my control and
it's it's a feeling as though,because it's out of my control.
It is therefore out of control,and that's where we need to
remember.
Jesus is alive and active.
He is still the prophet, priestand king.
He is the lord of the churchthis very day, and he does
(32:38):
authorize and deputize me to docertain things, but he is not
restricted to the few thingsthat I or you, as a pastor, can
say and do.
He's still working.
Resurrection in this world.
And so I think, being remindedof his ongoing grace and mercy
and the promises of how he'sgoing to bring his kingdom to
(32:58):
pass fully and, finally, that'swhat gives me the faith to shut
up at a certain point and toknow that it can still be okay
and that God, by his Holy Spirit, can actually work so much more
life and newness and repentanceand change, well beyond what I
might berate people into orshame people into.
(33:21):
And so oftentimes, less is somuch more, because his strength
is shown in our weakness.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I think that's a great place to end.
Thank you for your time, Mike.
I hope this is helpful.
Well, in 20-2, the Westminster Confession of Faith
makes this powerful statementabout the authority of Scripture
over the conscience.
So, mike, first of all, can youstart by unpacking what it
means when the confession saysthat God alone is Lord of the
(00:30):
conscience and how thatprinciple plays out in the
context of preaching?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah.
So preachers are playing withfire.
We speak, people listen andthey take it seriously.
They don't always like it, theydon't always follow it and they
take it seriously.
They don't always like it, theydon't always follow it, but
preaching purports to be theword of God spoken to the people
of God, and that's a dangerousthing.
And what we see here is thiscognizance of that reality that
(00:59):
a preacher can exploit thatright calling, if they seek to
say what they think, as thoughthat were what the Lord says.
Now, of course, the preacherdoes mean to convey what he
believes the Word says, how he'sinterpreted it, how he's
prayerfully studied it, how hebelieves it's meant to build up
(01:21):
that particular congregation ofthe Church of Christ.
But there's always that momentwhere you can press beyond, you
can add or supplement, you cantweak or modify.
And it's telling how often inthe Bible there's a warning,
whether it's in Deuteronomy oragain at the end of the entire
Bible, at Revelation, thewarning about adding or
(01:43):
subtracting even the smallestelement.
And that's crucial forpreachers to remember, to the
extent that we go beyond whatthe Word says and bind someone's
conscience so that they feelthat God demands something of
them If we go beyond what Godactually authorizes us to do and
to say, we're taking the Lord'sname in vain, we're breaking
(02:06):
the third commandment, we'repurporting to treat our opinions
, which may or may not beinformed and wise, but
nonetheless aren't divine, andthat's dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah.
So if you think about it, thenit seems like this is one of the
reasons why, in many traditions, choosing a passage and
preaching through the passage asa regular diet of preaching, as
opposed to primarily topicalsermons, would help us stay in
our lane, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, and there's a way we can think about that that
the Bible provides both a normand a limit, as one theologian
put it.
It provides a norm.
We're called to teach all of it.
Paul models this, the idea thathe conveys to the church in
Ephesus, in Acts 20.
He doesn't feel good leaving ayoung church till he's taught
what he calls the whole counselof God.
(02:57):
So we want to cover all of it,not just our favorite things,
not just the hot topics of theday.
On the other hand, it providesa limit hear and know further,
and I and most preachers, wehave thoughts on other things.
Some of them are informed, somemight even be accurate, others
aren't and surely won't be.
(03:18):
But more importantly, we're notcalled, we're not equipped and
we're not authorized to offer ordispense our mere opinions,
however good they might be.
And so routinely sticking topreaching through books of the
Bible is kind of the bread andbutter, as you put it.
That's a great way to make surewe're covering the norm.
(03:40):
Yeah, and it's not a guarantee,but it's a help that we would
stick to the limits of Scripturetoo.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, I'm thinking of the clerical collar right now,
and my limited understanding isthat at least part of the
reasoning for wearing theclerical collar would be to
remind the preacher or thepastor and others that we are
bound with the words we speak tothe word of God and not our own
opinion.
Is that pretty accurate?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I mean the symbolism of it is very much
this idea that one's mouth andvoice is in fact governed by
another.
It's a very humbling thing.
It's not terribly ancient,that's no knock on it, but it's
symbolic of something that eventraditions that don't tend to go
(04:28):
to wearing the collar they findother ways to celebrate.
The fact that Presbyterians,for instance, in the 16th and
17th centuries, made a point ofreferring to their elected,
ordained leaders as ministerswas really intentional.
A minister is a secretary.
(04:48):
A minister is someone under theauthority of another, in the
same way that there's adifference between executive and
administrative exercise.
And that's simply meant toshape the mentality of the
minister themselves, knowingthat they're someone who comes
in the name and authority ofanother, of Jesus, and to shape
(05:11):
the perceptions of thecongregation To realize this
isn't a genius, this isn'tsomeone who's just got the most
sanctity or the most intellector all the right answers.
This is someone who I listen tobecause Jesus has sent him to
do certain things and to speakcertain things to me.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, that's so helpful.
And when we think about thehistorical context of the
Westminster Confession of Faith,it's probably important to say
as well that the WestminsterConfession of Faith, in this
instance and in all of thedocumentation that it's speaking
to, is summarizing the Bible'steaching, right, of course, the
Bible is the one that teaches usthat.
(05:50):
It is the authoritative voicein the life of the Christian,
and so the preacher, which is agift to the church, as you said,
their role is to be a minister,not some genius to infuse their
ideas above and beyond thescriptures themselves.
So, with that little bit ofcaveat, can you give us some
more historical context here,like, for example, what
(06:13):
historical or theologicalconcerns might have driven the
Westminster divines to includethis protection of the
conscience in the confession?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah.
So I mean, this was one ofseveral times in church history
when the religious and thepolitical and the cultural and
the economic are very muchentwined and not surprisingly,
people always run to pastors andpriests, to bishops and to
popes to sort of encourage acause.
(06:43):
To sort of encourage a cause.
And this is trying to kind ofdemarcate or draw lines between
what's appropriate instructionand not just appropriate but
necessary and what'sinappropriate not just
inappropriate but actuallysinful and blasphemous In a real
sense.
The clergy need to teach thewhole counsel of God.
(07:04):
They're duty bound to it.
Failing to do so is negligence,it's pastoral malpractice, and
(07:28):
that means there are going to besome uncomfortable things
political disagreementsregarding things like monarchy
and republicanism, a host ofdifferent liturgical beliefs
about what worship and pietyshould look like.
And the key thing here istrying to delineate what's a
pastor absolutely essentiallygoing to say and when are they
going to stop.
And then, as now, I think wecould say you know, in modern
terms, a microphone is aterribly seductive thing.
(07:50):
Other people want someone who'sgoing to be a guru, and those
of us who talk behindmicrophones find that they keep
asking for more and we keepwanting to pontificate, and
that's as true for a Protestantas for any Roman Catholic bishop
or pope.
(08:11):
And so this is really meant toconstrain and to shape the
expectations of the clergy.
At the same time, there's anunstated sort of flip If the
clergy aren't supposed to dosomething, that doesn't mean
that thinking doesn't matter.
So this also presumes a certainview of lay people that
(08:33):
Christian men and women whoaren't ordained pastors they're
not bishops, they're notministers they're nonetheless
instructed by God's Word, builtup and equipped by their pastors
, and they're given the gift ofthe Holy Spirit to help them
discern.
And this presumes an educatedlaity who are going to connect
dots.
If a pastor is not going todevelop every policy statement
(08:57):
for you and your family or youand your nation, that means
Christian men and women need tobe standing in the gap and doing
that further work.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, well, what I love about that is that it shows
the beauty of the entire bodyof Christ, and the preacher, the
minister, has a very importantbut narrow role in the ministry
of the laity, as you said, inthe world.
As you know, at New City we endthe benediction every week with
you are sent, and there are alot of reasons why we do that.
(09:27):
But one of these realities isthat we believe that God is
sending his people out to takewhat they've just heard and work
it out in faithfulness as theypursue loving their neighbor in
all the various places that hesends them.
And you know, one of the thingsthat fascinates me, I'm thinking
about some studies that I'veread in the last handful of
years that show that even theyounger generations, who are
(09:50):
still coming to church, whensurveyed they say the reason
that they are attracted to achurch and stay at that church
is the preaching, and in onesense, that makes sense to me.
In another sense, there are alot of cultural realities that
might surprise us, especially ata church like New City that
does more than a 15 to 25-minutesermon.
And so when we think about thefact that people do value
(10:14):
preaching, they value coming andhearing someone, hopefully,
preach the Word of God To yourpoint earlier.
There's this reality that theperson speaking behind a
microphone that can puff us upin a sense, and you mentioned
already some of the historicalrealities that were at play, of
(10:36):
why the Westminster divinesfound it important to put this
in the confession.
So, when we think about today,what ways do you think preachers
could overstep these boundaries?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think if we talkabout the word is both norm and
limit, there's ways we can gowrong on both sides, aren't
there?
I mean, on the one hand, wemight fail to address things the
Bible does and people in ourown tradition.
They've done this in remarkablefashion and I don't think
(11:08):
that's a sign they're uniquelyheinous.
That's them giving in to whatprobably all of us in various
ways do.
So infamously in the 19thcentury Southern preachers and
many others.
They believed that you oughtnot preach against the
institution of slavery, forinstance.
And the Bible doesn't lay out aspecific program for exactly
(11:33):
how you end slavery in itsvarious forms, but the teaching
of the image of God, the notionof how you care for the least of
these, those and other beliefs.
They remarkably shape theChristian imagination for how
you would think about reactingto that kind of sad, corrupt
cultural reality.
(11:53):
And not surprisingly,christians were the first to
challenge it and to lead to itsabolition in so much of the
world.
Sadly, many in our circles inthe American South they believe
that was wrong.
They believe that was to getout of the church's lane.
And they were wrong when theythought that, because the Bible
teaches things that challengethe foundations of that, an
(12:17):
error by getting too specific ortoo particular, as if there's
but one policy as a way tofaithfully fulfill what the
Bible teaches.
So the Bible does tell us thatwe're to raise our children in
the nurture and admonition ofthe Lord.
That's not a completeeducational program.
(12:40):
And so even at a relativelysmall part of the global Church
of Christ like New City, we havefolks going about it in a bunch
of different ways Public school, private school, homeschool,
you name it and sometimes that'sshaped by resources and
opportunities, but often it'sjudgments by parents about the
(13:01):
best wise way to do a commonconcern with regard to a
particular kid.
They may even make differentdecisions about various kids in
their family, still believingthey're going after the main
concerns but finding sort ofparticular policies for each
child to enflesh that thedangers.
(13:21):
If you say this one approach,this is the one way we can get
into that.
When we talk about dating andmarriage, when we talk about
budgeting and finance, when wetalk about education and
schooling or politics and voting, and to the extent that we're
going beyond what the Bibleactually says and we're
(13:43):
including our judgment, our readof circumstance, our approach
to opportunities, we're writingchecks in the Lord's name and
account, not our own, and that'sa serious pastoral error,
precisely because we can'tpresume that every person in the
room will observe thedistinction.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, there's so many helpful things about that.
Naming both pitfalls that couldeasily be fallen into by the
preacher, one you said wasfailing to speak to what the
Bible actually does clearlyspeak to.
So you had mentioned slavery.
The reality is, is that theright thing to do when preaching
(14:29):
the Bible, particularly thedoctrine of the image of God and
other things, was to condemnthe notion that we can own
people or that certain humanbeings were more valuable than
other human beings?
Now, how the institution ofslavery, of which many nations
was a significant part of theirrevenue, to speak to the
complexity of that, that was forChristians in government and
(14:52):
policy, not to the preacher.
Maybe some common issues todaymight be how do we speak to
issues of sexuality?
The Bible speaks very clearlyabout those particular issues.
We should be increasinglyarticulate.
I think we should beincreasingly bold, but also
(15:13):
loving.
To speak against the fact thatGod has created human beings in
such a way and to go against hisdesign is actually not good for
you.
It's not good for society.
Well, there's a lot to saythere without getting into what
that means for particularpolicies, at least from the
pulpit.
So there are other issues wecould speak to, but that might
(15:33):
be a modern day issue, and whenI continue to think about that,
I think about the beauty ofChristians wanting to come to
church and hear their pastorsgive guidance on how to follow
Jesus in various areas of life.
And right now, in this season,we just finished a series on
(15:53):
following Jesus in politics.
We're in an election season andso, on the one hand, I can see
that people would want to hearfrom their pastors.
They would want something moredirective, and I think there's
something good in that.
But the thing that I don't thinkwe want is actually the other
pitfall you said, which wasgetting outside of our lane.
It would be speaking to thingsthat we don't have the expertise
(16:14):
, experience or calling to speakto.
And what I actually think andyou can tell me if this analogy
works or not or where it mightbreak down but I actually think
when I've had some conversationsin the past where people have
challenged me or honestly justbeen curious why don't you speak
more directly to the specifics,even like who should we vote
(16:37):
for that type of thing myresponse has been twofold.
One that's outside of my lane,and I'll quote the passage here
that we're talking about in theWestminster Confession of Faith.
The other thing is I try to letthem know I don't think you
really want this.
In other words, like you don'twant me speaking to things I
have no idea what I'm talkingabout, but just because I read a
(16:59):
few articles and have anopinion that I can speak to, and
, like another example would be,you don't want me giving you
medical advice, for example.
In the same way I can speak onthe goodness of the body, I can
speak on how the incarnationteaches us that I can speak
about the goodness of the body.
I can speak on how theIncarnation teaches us that.
I can speak about the realityof prayers of healing.
I can speak to what the Biblesays as it relates to what might
(17:22):
be parallel to medical advice.
But as soon as I go intomedical advice, I'm out of my
lane.
So how would you speak to that?
I mean, do you think that's adecent analogy?
How would you add to that?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that is a common problem and I
think people, when they expressfrustration, in reality the
frustration under the voicedquestion or protest is really.
We live in a complex world.
And these are challengingthings.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And we really do need help.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, that's right, these are challenging things and
we really do need help.
Now the pastor can't be all thehelp, right, and that's sadly a
little dispiriting to somepeople who thought coming to
church would do the trick.
Yeah, but the pastor can be apart and the Christian community
and study of the Bible andprayer and over time God uses
(18:12):
those things to make people wise.
And over time God uses thosethings to make people wise.
And the reality is, you know,you think of what Paul says in
Romans 12.
He describes how you're not tobe conformed to the world and
its ways.
You're to be transformed by therenewing of your mind.
And it doesn't say so you'llimmediately know all the right
things to do, but it rather saysso that by testing, you might
(18:35):
be able to discern the will ofGod.
In other words, the end goal isnot intuitive, immediate
awareness of all the rightanswers, but it's being so
transformed and being soactively unconformed to the
world that you're capable ofthis active responsibility that
will be with you the rest ofyour life.
(18:56):
I mean, the reality is most ofour serious questions, almost
all the time, they're not blackand white.
The black and white ones, thankGod, are so clear that even
when we do wrong, we at leastknow that we've done something
that's dire and evil.
The reality is so much of lifeinvolves discernment and mature
(19:17):
judgment.
And that's tiresome.
That's something that many ofus struggle with, especially
people who desire greater senseof certainty.
And some people are heavilywired and predisposed that way,
and a pastor wants to be awareof that.
They need to be aware of that.
They don't want to deliverfalse certainty that might sort
(19:40):
of make people think as though,because they've heard a right
trope or cliche, they've arrived.
The pastor wants to lead themas pilgrims on the way so they
grow in discernment and invitethem to be a part of the church
body discerning.
Grow in discernment and invitethem to be a part of the church
body discerning.
So at a place like New City,we're gifted with people who
have a much better eye than I doas to the economic facets of
(20:04):
public policy, people who have amuch better understanding than
I do of the inner dynamics ofthe healthcare system or family
dynamics, and they can speakinto and be resources as I and
others try and wrestle withcomplex issues for my personal
(20:27):
life, for public life.
And the takeaway doesn't haveto be that we have to agree on
everything, but that we canbless one another and help one
another.
Good households and families,good cities all these metaphors
for the people of God in the NewTestament.
They involve give and take andpeople bringing various gifts,
(20:48):
and that can shape the way inwhich a people equipped by
pastors bring their own giftsand strengths and knowledge to
bless one another.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yes, well, I love that, and I think that something
you said in the middle of thathas concerned some people, which
is what do you mean that we candisagree?
I just think it's so amazingthat you spoke to the complexity
of the world, and I regularlyfind people shocked that
Christians can disagree on veryimportant things.
(21:19):
And the word you used wasdiscernment, and I think that
one thing that is true of allChristians, of all people, is
that in order to discern well,your desires have to be ordered
properly.
I do think that that is part ofthe beauty of preaching is that
every week, when we experienceit, one of the things that
should be happening is the Wordof God, reordering our desires.
(21:43):
The Word of God and its properapplication, not only reordering
our desires, but also remindingus of the goodness of God, of
His gifts to us and the task tobe sent out into the world to do
the work of discerning.
But the reality is, desire comesfirst, discerning comes next,
and then, of course, we woulddiscern things based on the
(22:03):
different gifts, training andexperience we have, and it seems
that there are so many obviousexamples where we see this as a
good thing.
For example, if anadministration, a government
administration.
If they have to decide on apolicy, we would hope that they
actually create a team with amultidisciplinary approach.
(22:24):
This is why think tanks existin some measure is how do we get
people together to think aboutreally complicated issues that
are serving the same mission buthave different training and
therefore opinions, and maydisagree.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, and I mean you can just take one case study.
There are some thingsChristians need to agree on, and
we're aiming at conformity.
There are other things thatbeing a Christian in no way
guarantees conformity.
So just take a case studyexample.
Like immigration.
There's some basic beliefs thatthe Bible instills that
Christians ought to all own astheirs.
(23:00):
We care for those whom God hasgiven us a special
responsibility for.
So I have a responsibility tomy family, to my town and to my
nation that I don't for everyother family in town.
That's appropriate.
At the same time, we're calledto have a remarkable sympathy
and a generous spirit toward theother, the stranger, the
(23:21):
migrant and especially theparticularly vulnerable.
How those two things are goingto balance gets remarkably
tricky, though, and notsurprisingly.
Economists might have differenttakes on how much a given
country or municipality canreceive immigrants before you're
(23:42):
actually not blessing them inthe same way and caring for your
own.
Some might think you can handlefar more.
Others be a little morecautious and less.
That's not a theologicaljudgment, that's an economic
judgment, something I'm utterlyincapable of personally.
So we're going to want to treatpeople and speak of people in a
(24:02):
Christian manner.
We're going to want to upholdChristian principles, both of
caring for those God hasspecially given us
responsibility for, as well asgenerosity so far as we can
offer to others.
But I'm not going to besurprised that we're going to
have different reads of thecurrent situation, of what would
(24:23):
be optimal, what would bepossible and the best pathways
to get there.
And, like you said, that'swhere we're going to need people
with different perspective andexpertise, the kind of expertise
the average Christian much lesspastor sure can't have on
everything.
We're going to need people withthe expertise of law
enforcement, what they can andcan't manage, local jobs,
(24:46):
economies, what's possible,social services, a host of
issues that are going to shape,hopefully, how people think
about applying those biblicalprinciples and actually enacting
policy.
And so much of that is goingwell beyond the basic biblical
teachings that are challengingenough about loving not only
(25:07):
your own but also the other.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
That's right, so good , so it's a really helpful case
study.
So, in summary, it really speaksto a number of things that
we've spoken to, and this is howI think.
One is that, in order for us torely on Christian principles,
that when we hear of immigrationissues, these are image bearers
, these are human beings, and sothere's a way in which we can
(25:33):
hear or read or watch on thenews that is actually designed
to evoke fear in us, and in thatplace, it's easy to view that
human being as other and lessthan a person to be defeated, a
person to be defended against.
But when we come to worship andwe have our hearts reordered,
(25:56):
we begin to see them as humanbeings again, image bearers, and
then, all of a sudden, we seethat love is really what we're
called to love of neighbor.
But to go from that to workingout the policies, working out
all the dynamics that you talkedabout, that is something
altogether different, somethingthat ought not be worked out
from the pulpit and from thepreacher alone, of course, but
(26:20):
there's something reallyimportant about this dynamic and
, I think, really wise, and Ithink we want this.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, and I think that fits with something that,
with some regularity, we talkabout a good deal at New City
this idea that goes back intothe Reformed tradition that the
church is not only gathered butalso scattered and sent.
Yeah, and a lot of peopleassume that if the preacher in
the public gathering isn'tsaying something, this is our
(26:50):
take then the church isdisengaged Right, and that's to
presume that the church existsonly in as much as we're
gathered together.
The preacher's forming people,the service is shaping people by
God's grace, so that they cango out, be scattered, they can
be sent by God, they can becarrying their formation, their
(27:13):
gifts, their resources, thecapital they've got in every
possible sense to discern, tomake prudential judgments and
hopefully to love sacrificiallyin wise and well ways.
And that won't all look thesame, but that kind of scattered
and sent reality is the finalgoal here.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
That's right, absolutely, yeah, all right.
So one of the reasons we wantedto record this podcast was
because I think that many peoplein general and certainly in our
congregation they haven't beenintroduced to these types of
categories, and so some peoplemight not think about it.
Others might be curious as towhy we don't speak more directly
to these issues than others,and then there may be some
(27:55):
people who are frustrated thatwe don't and, to your last point
, may think that by not speakingto it, we're somehow skirting
an issue or backing away fromboldness.
So, all of that to say, I wantto affirm some of that.
Insofar as people arefrustrated, I want to affirm
some of it in that I think itgets to something important,
which is that the church shouldbe a prophetic voice in society,
(28:18):
and the thing is, is that thingwe should be able to agree upon
?
But many people believe that inorder to be a prophetic voice,
that requires speaking directlyto political and social issues
that affect our daily lives,from the pulpit or from up front
.
So when we think about that,how do we reconcile the need for
(28:38):
moral clarity on certain issueswith the confession's stance
that we've been speakingpositively about on not binding
consciences on matters where theBible is silent or at least not
prescriptive.
How do we manage that tension?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Well, I think one help is the way the Bible itself
models this.
There are spots, of course,where there is just a
straightforward command.
On the other hand, you readPhilemon.
When Paul is addressing thissituation, he does not offer a
(29:12):
global principle.
He rather, in teaching basicbeliefs about not just human
identity but Christian identityand shared identity in Christ,
even between the elite and thepoor, or slave masters and
slaves, he's leading people toimagine their situation
(29:33):
differently so they can takeownership and responsibility for
doing what he doesn't exactlyname, that is, that a slave
ought to be freed.
And so often we'll see the Bibleaddresses a matter by going
underneath it or around it.
There are moments for hit thenail on the head.
(29:54):
It gets old if that's the onlytool in the toolkit.
So it's not surprising thatJesus, far more often than he,
will overturn tables and callpeople a pit of vipers, he will
rather provide parables and hismodel, and that seems to have
(30:17):
caught the apostles and thewritings of the New Testament.
They seem to use differenttools of instruction to shape
and form people, and that'smeant not just to be the content
we look at and pass on, but amodel for how we do so.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's so good.
I think that looking atdifferent parts of the scripture
that are normative, that teachus normative ways of engaging
the culture, particularly aspreachers, is a really wise
thing to do, while alsorecognizing there are moments
where the prophets and Jesus, asyou say, speak directly, sort
(30:54):
of nail on the head, on the nosesort of thing.
But it seems to me that to makethose examples normative is
honestly very tempting, andthere's something attractive
about it, especially in ourmoment where pundits are winning
the day and we all can struggleat times, no matter where we
fall politically, to feel thatour view of the culture as being
(31:16):
stolen from us as Christians.
It sort of brings up at leastin me, there's a weird
attractiveness to be able tohave that zinger, to be able to
have the tweetable phrase, andso I wonder if we think about
that as a common temptation, butmaybe one that's even more
tempting now.
Maybe the last word we couldsay is to anyone listening, but
(31:41):
maybe especially to preachersand to those training to be
preachers what should weparticularly be mindful of in
the coming months and years?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
along those lines, Well, I think the most important
thing is to have hope.
The reason that we tend to gobeyond what we should, the
reason that it feels really goodto have a zinger and to
castigate somebody, is,ultimately, it's coming from a
place of fear.
Not all fear is bad, but thisis a kind of fear that's
unproductive.
It's a fear of man, not of God.
(32:14):
It's a fear of circumstancethat's beyond my control and
it's it's a feeling as though,because it's out of my control.
It is therefore out of control,and that's where we need to
remember.
Jesus is alive and active.
He is still the prophet, priestand king.
He is the lord of the churchthis very day, and he does
(32:38):
authorize and deputize me to docertain things, but he is not
restricted to the few thingsthat I or you, as a pastor, can
say and do.
He's still working.
Resurrection in this world.
And so I think, being remindedof his ongoing grace and mercy
and the promises of how he'sgoing to bring his kingdom to
(32:58):
pass fully and, finally, that'swhat gives me the faith to shut
up at a certain point and toknow that it can still be okay
and that God, by his Holy Spirit, can actually work so much more
life and newness and repentanceand change, well beyond what I
might berate people into orshame people into.
(33:21):
And so oftentimes, less is somuch more, because his strength
is shown in our weakness.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I think that's a great place to end.
Thank you for your time, Mike.
I hope this is helpful.
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