April 7, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode, Nate talks with Pastor of Formation & Mission Benjamin Kandt about the connection between attachment theory and the most widely used metaphor in the Psalms.
Nate and Ben unpack the concept of God as a refuge and its parallels with secure attachment. The Psalms unveil a portrait of God as a safe haven and a secure base, concepts so vital to our growth and sense of safety. Moreover, the linguistic shift from addressing God as "he" to "you" in places like Psalm 23 speaks to a deepening relationship that offers the same comfort and safety as a child finds in a parent's embrace.
The discussion digs into the intersections of theology, psychology, and neuroscience as we prepare the ground for the "Summer in the Psalms" series. We reflect on our own personal journeys and the paths that have led us here, and hope to pave the way for a summer of reflection, connection, and growth through the lens of secure attachment and the Psalms.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and today I'm with our pastor of
formation and mission, benjaminKant.
It's been a while since we'vedone one of these, it's true.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
This is one of my favorite things we get to do
together, Nate, so the fact thatwe haven't done in a while
something's not working righthere.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I know that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We're hoping this is what kind of gets us back on
track, because we've got a bigseries of I can't say it's a big
series, so the Psalms andsecure attachment.
Secure attachment, of course,is a phrase from a body of
(00:53):
psychological literature calledattachment theory.
That's a really big deal, right?
So I could give you somehistory on it, but John Bowlby
is kind of the founder of it andhe was really cutting against
the grain in his day and age and, from what I gather, he was
kind of neglected for a while.
(01:13):
Like nobody really took himseriously in his time I
shouldn't say nobody, but he wasnot kind of a main stage
thinker in psychology until alittle bit more recently Some
people kind of uncovered hiswork and it's now in many ways
all the rage.
And one of the things I reallyappreciate about attachment
theory is that it has this viewof human beings that were
(01:34):
fundamentally relational, whichis very resonant with biblical
anthropology that humans, madein the image of a triune God,
have a relational ontology.
That's a fancy word, for ourvery beings are developed and
sustained in relationship, firstwith God as our creator and we
(01:55):
as creatures, but then second aspeople who are born in
relationship and sustainedthrough relationship.
It's not for nothing thatsolitary confinement is like the
worst punishment that we haveto offer prisoners, because that
is profoundly damaging to arelational being like a human
being.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, yeah.
It's almost as if that's youthink about.
I don't want to go down thisroad too far, but capital
punishment.
It's like you're almost takingsomeone's life away from them
without putting them to death.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, yeah, that's right.
In fact, I'm pretty convincedthat the two fundamental fears
that humans carry around withthem are the fear of death and
the fear of social rejection.
That those are allOstracization is almost read by
the nervous system as the sameas a physical threat, because
social threats and physicalthreats are equally as damning
(02:46):
and damaging, for a human being.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well, I think we've even talked about that in
previous episodes.
I'm not sure I could go backand collect them, but we've
talked about like just onlinebehavior and just the way people
like with people being canceled.
It's doing violence to them ina way that's it's not physical,
but the experience of it may aswell be similar to physical
violence.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah.
So this is relevant because, ifthat's true, when we read the
book of Psalms we're going tosee things like that.
We're actually going to seepeople really concerned about
the threatening words that otherpeople use about them, which is
exactly what you read in thePsalms.
We both have read GordonWedham's book on the Psalms and
one of the things he points outis that, of the 10 commandments,
(03:26):
the one that the Psalms seem tobe most concerned with is
bearing false witness, is theviolation of using your tongue
to destroy, which is reallyremarkable that this book of
Psalms would take that one soseriously, and I think there's
reasons for why that is thatwe'll get to unpack together
here.
But so we just kind of verysimply touched on secure
(03:47):
attachment.
But I want to talk about thePsalms for a moment and then
kind of come back and bring themtogether.
So the Psalms are arguably themost psychologically rich text
in the entire Bible, in thewhole 66 book canon of the
scriptures, and that's not myopinion, although it is, uh, but
it's not only my opinion Um, uh, athanasius and Augustine and
(04:09):
Calvin.
Calvin called it an anatomy ofall parts of the human soul,
which sounds a little bitpsychological to me Right.
Um, I believe he's ahead of histime.
He was ahead of his time,that's right.
And then Kurt Thompson pickedup that phrase and used it for
his first, uh, his first book,which is fantastic and so, which
is on interpersonalneurobiology and talks a lot
about attachment theory.
And so Augustine talked aboutthe Psalms as being a mirror in
(04:34):
which our very selves arereflected back to us, but in a
sanctified way.
And the Athanasius andAugustine both kind of work out
the therapeutic that's theactual word that's used the
therapeutic nature of the Bookof Psalms.
And so it was not unusual forthe Psalms to have a kind of a
(04:55):
heart place, like a place at theheart of Judeo-Christian
spirituality.
And really that's kind of upuntil modern day, right.
If you get a New Testament,usually it has the book of
Psalms and maybe the Proverbsattached to it.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, it's never Leviticus and Ezekiel.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
The two books that get thrownin.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, that's right, and so the Psalms teach us how
to live out this covenantalrelationship with God, where we
both come to the table, god andwe who are in covenant with God.
They train us in that kind ofrelationship, and they do that
by helping us really do what CSLewis called the preface, the
prayer that precedes all prayers, which is let it be the real I
(05:37):
who speaks and let it be thereal you to whom I speak.
In other words, the constantthreat or danger in relating to
God is that I would relate toGod as a false God, making him
into whatever idolatrous image Iwant him to be, or I would
relate to God from my false selfand put forward a mask or a
persona or some fake version ofwho I am, even though God
(05:59):
refuses to love anybody, but thereal me, the true self, and so
the Psalms train us to take offour masks, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And you didn't necessarily think of it this way
.
Well, I can't say.
I know what you think, but partof the pivot to the McShane
Bible reading plan that westarted earlier this year is
that it gets you through thePsalms twice in a year, and so
at any given point during theyear you're in some section of
the Psalms.
At the time of this recordingwe just started one, but that
means we're going to be workingthrough the Psalms chapter or
(06:30):
two a day for the next severalmonths and then later on in the
fall we'll do the same thing,and so if you really are
engaging this plan, you're goingto find yourself in the Psalms
almost more often than not.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, a good bit, which is really great and very
typical to historic Christianpractice.
Christians throughout historyhave taken the Psalms very
seriously and had them as a partof their diet, their daily diet
of what it means to walk withJesus.
So as I was studying the Psalmsthis was probably seven years
(07:05):
ago now I read this book calledSeeing the Psalms by William
Brown.
Um, is that right William Brown?
I think so.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, and it's that is a guy that writes on that
type of thing.
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And, uh, it's, and.
And so his book Seeing thePsalms is about the theology of
metaphor in the book of Psalms.
Um, one of the distinctives ofHebrew poetry is its use of
metaphor, and it's rich in itsuse of metaphor, and so he
essentially shows how there arethese kind of meta metaphors, if
you will, or these kind ofanchor metaphors, and then from
(07:37):
those anchor metaphors come allthese related metaphors.
Okay, so, simply put, thenumber one metaphor in the book
of Psalms is and I wonder whatour listeners would guess- yeah,
let's even just leave it therefor a minute.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What is the number one metaphor in Psalms?
And just get a clear, distinct.
What do you think it is?
Just kind of sit there with it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
You might think Psalm 23,.
Right, the Lord is my shepherd.
You might think about Psalm 16,where the Lord is my portion.
You could think about Psalm 150, about how let everything that
has breath give praise, likethis breath, nature of what it
(08:21):
means to praise.
You've given them all thesewrong answers only.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's right, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
amazing.
The number one metaphor in thebook of Psalms is refuge.
It's refuge, and so what refuge?
Though?
It's one of those metametaphors where it connects with
a bunch of other ones.
So today is the 4th.
It's April 4th that we'rerecording this on, and so I have
a practice of taking the month,the day of the month, and
(08:45):
multiplying it by 5.
, and that gives me 5 psalms toread, to pray, to think through
for that day.
So I take the 4th of the month,multiply it by 5.
That's 20.
And then I back up 5.
So the psalms for today arepsalms 16 through 20.
Okay, so I know that wasconfusing, but Let the listener
work out the math.
Yeah, that's right Track withme here.
(09:06):
So let me just this is just anexample.
We could have recorded thisyesterday or tomorrow.
I would have done tried thesame thing.
Now listen to this Psalm 16, thefirst Psalm for today.
Preserve me, o God, for in youI take refuge, literally the
first line of Psalm 16.
You get to Psalm 17.
And if you're just kind ofscrolling your eyes through this
and looking for these, youmight think you might find 17,
(09:27):
verse seven.
Wondrously, show your steadfastlove, oh, savior of those who
seek refuge from theiradversaries at your right hand.
Okay, so then we'll go on toPsalm 18.
It doesn't get very, you don'thave to go very far.
This one is just like David'spulling out all the stops.
(09:48):
I love you, o Yahweh, mystrength, yahweh is here.
It is my rock, my fortress andmy deliverer, my God, my rock in
whom I take refuge, my shieldand the horn of my salvation, my
stronghold.
I call upon the Lord, who'sworthy to be praised, and save
me from my enemies.
Okay, so there's a good exampleof refuge.
Has these other relatedmetaphors like rock shield,
(10:08):
stronghold, strong tower,fortress.
Those are all refuge-likemetaphors.
Another one would be the birdmetaphors of hide me under the
shadow of your wings.
Or the worship metaphors of letme enter into your sanctuary
and you hide me under the shadowof your wings.
Or the worship metaphors of letme enter into your sanctuary
and you hide me under the coverof your tent.
Psalm 27 talks about Lift mehigh upon a rock right.
(10:30):
All of these metaphors that thePsalms use are talking about
the exact same thing, which isrefuge, a place where you seek
safety, security from thedifficulties of life, whether
inside of you or around you, andso let's now go back to secure
(10:51):
attachment.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Because, I said earlier, john Bowlby is the
founder and he had somebodynamed Mary Ainsworth who kind of
continued his work.
And Mary Ainsworth took Bowl of, continued his work and Mary
Ainsworth took Bowlby's work anddistilled it.
And here's the three kind ofkey fundamental criteria for
secure attachment.
So you know that there's anattachment relationship when the
(11:13):
first one is there's amaintenance of proximity.
Okay so the language isproximity seeking behavior.
In other words, people preferto be near an attachment figure,
especially in times of stressor need.
Now, hopefully, those of youwho know much or anything about
the book of Psalms, yourecognize how the entire book of
Psalms is proximity seekingbehavior.
(11:34):
Yeah, all you have to do ispick up the book of Psalms and
just pray through Psalm 16,preserve me, oh God, for in you
I take refuge.
That's proximity-seekingbehavior.
So that's the first part.
Now here's the second part isthe provision of a safe haven.
And so the safe haven is whenan attachment figure relieves an
attached individual's distressand provides comfort,
(11:55):
encouragement and support.
Okay so, proximity, maintenanceof proximity, a safe haven.
And the third one is a securebase, and I'm going to
distinguish those two in amoment.
A secure base is when anattachment figure increases the
attached individual's sense ofsecurity, which in turn sustains
exploration, risk-taking andself-development.
Okay so this is how a securebase and a safe haven works.
(12:17):
Just think if you go to anyplayground where kiddos are
running around and having a goodtime and their parents are kind
of encircling around theoutside of the playground, right
, you'll see this happen, wherea toddler will venture off away
from mom or dad's legs and kindof go do something and you might
actually watch they'll do thisthing.
Where they'll look back andjust check in every now and
(12:39):
again to make sure their mom ordad is still there.
And then let's just say they'reclimbing a little bit too high
and they trip and fall and hurtthemselves.
What do they do?
They immediately beeline itright back to mom or dad and mom
and dad hopefully picks them up, calms them, soothes them, and
then they can put them back down.
And what happens?
The kid goes and ventures offagain.
That's all three of thesethings happening.
(13:02):
There's a secure base, which isthe place from which the child
launches out into a potentiallydangerous world.
But it's okay that it'sdangerous, because I always know
I have a safe haven to comeback to.
I always have this place.
I can come back to where I'mgoing to be okay and I'm going
to be nurtured and I'm going toexperience my distress, soothe,
I'm going to receive comfort,encouragement, support, whatever
I need, and then, okay, I canlaunch back into the world from
(13:24):
my secure base again.
So, but that movement back andforth from the secure base and
the safe haven is what's calledmaintenance of proximity or
proximity seeking behavior, andso that dynamic is exactly what
we see happening constantly inthe book of Psalms when we talk
about this refuge metaphor.
So, nate, you know the Psalmswell, you know attachment theory
well.
What does that evoke in you,just even as we kind of walk
(13:46):
through those things?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I mean, if it is true and I'm not questioning the
truth that refuge is this sortof meta metaphor, it seems
unquestionable.
All you have to do is just readthe Psalms.
And there's other metaphors,but even the ones that you
mentioned the Lord is myshepherd is one it's like.
Well, that's not a refugemetaphor, but if you look at the
language of even that Psalm, itis the things that you just
(14:12):
mentioned.
The shepherd needs to be nearby.
The shepherd is creating a safehaven for the sheep.
Yea, though I walk through thevalley of the shadow of death, I
will fear no evil.
It also has an interestingproximity maintenance in the
pronouns.
The shepherd is a he, sodistance early in the Psalm and
then later in the Psalm it's ayou.
(14:33):
Now he's moved closer and it'sunclear necessarily whether the
sheep's gotten closer, theshepherd's gotten closer, but
either way the gap has beenclosed so that I feel safe.
And so it's safety, securityimagery, even if it's not refuge
metaphor imagery.
So once you expand it like that, it's like well, actually it's
maybe even more pervasive in thePsalms.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, that's so well said.
Yeah, why is it that I'm okaywalking through the valley of
the shadow of death?
Because you are with me, yourrod and your staff.
They comfort me.
Comfort is one of the thingsthat a safe haven provides, and
so I think there's so muchrichness and so much potential
here.
And I want to look at Psalm 22,because I think this one's
(15:18):
actually where this initiallyreally hooked my attention and
began to get worked out for me.
But before we do, I really wantto put this question out there
that it's a working question forme.
In other words, I don't have aconclusive answer that makes me
feel like, yeah, I've buttonedthat one up and the question is
okay.
So this makes sense.
(15:38):
If you're talking about aphysical mom or a physical dad
to whom the child can run andliterally experience strong arms
, lifting them up, holding them,soothing them, calming them
right, Looking into their eyes,regulating their right brain,
regulating the child's rightbrain and their nervous system,
calming the child's nervoussystem this is all the things
that happen in attachment,secure, attached relationships.
(16:00):
What does it mean to takerefuge in a God who is spirit,
which is what we confess?
God is a spirit, and so that'sa real question and I think the
Psalms tutor us in that.
But it means that in some wayswe have to take refuge by faith,
not by sense.
And yet I genuinely believe thekind of refuge that the Lord
(16:24):
provides, the secure base andthe safe haven that the Lord
provides is relevant to ourphysical natures.
In other words, it actually, ifyou take God as your refuge and
you find security and safety inhim, if you seek proximity to
him, it actually can regulateyour nervous system.
It actually can make you, itcan bring you back into a window
(16:46):
of tolerance and out of fight,flight, freeze, whatever your
propensity might be in a momentof fear.
I really sincerely believe that.
But then I really want to workthis out in a practical way.
Like, what does it mean to takerefuge in a God who is spirit,
who's not an actual tower thatyou could run into and like shut
the door and lock it and feelthe rock walls around you kind
(17:07):
of encasing you in Right?
That's a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It is a real challenge.
Yeah, Because it is a.
You don't want to go too far inone direction and say, well,
it's just all supernatural Like.
if you just have enough faith,the spirit will rewire your
nervous system so that you feelthese things where you're just
sort of you're making it toomystical at that point.
But that's also a live option,because it's because God is
(17:31):
spirit and because his spiritdwells within me.
That doesn't not affect mybiology.
There's maybe ways I couldhinder its effect on my biology.
There's maybe ways I couldhinder its effect on my biology.
There's maybe ways I couldenhance its effect on my biology
.
But there's not a sense inwhich that does not have some
sort of biological effect, evenif it can't be mapped
biologically.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That's such a good point.
And in fact the wordsupernatural we use it a good
bit.
It's not a Bible word, thoughit's actually from.
You'd probably know better thanme on this.
I think it's a fairly modernword.
I don't think you find Aquinasand Augustine and you don't find
the church using the wordsupernatural that often.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I don't think it's a well, I could even clarify
that's even a.
It's a modern category, andwhen we say modern, we really
mean theology donepost-enlightenment, post, Even
just the creation of religion assomething that's separate from
philosophy or separate fromtheology.
Now we have a natural worldthat's like a self-contained
(18:31):
thing.
So a supernatural thing issomething that's outside.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Then eventually you're like well then, how do we
?
Even we can't measure that, sothen that doesn't even exist.
And so yeah, I would saysupernatural and natural are
very modern, they're a littlesketchy categories.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Right, they're not biblical categories.
They're not biblical categoriesbecause this is the way the
Bible talks about the Son.
In Matthew 5, jesus says thatthe Father makes his Son shine
on the wicked and the righteous,on the evil, the good, the just
and the unjust.
Okay, so if that's true, thevery natural thing, like the sun
(19:10):
rising and setting every day,is apparently, it's God, the
Father, making the sun risewhich sounds very supernatural,
but it's not.
It's actually God'sprovidential care of his
creation that is sustaining allthings at all times.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And that's actually the important point.
There is the view of the authorof the Bibles and a biblical
view.
It's not nature, it's creation.
It's creation, that's right.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
With the creator.
That is a very importantdistinction.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So, it is the creator's creation.
He interacts with it in a waythat's not.
It's just doing its thing, andthen sometimes he intervenes.
That's not the way that wewould want people to think about
it.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That's right, that's so good, and and so, in that
sense, a miracle, uh, is a realconcern for people who have a
natural supernatural dichotomy.
Um, a miracle is thein-breaking of the supernatural
into the natural, um, and yet,as if it doesn't belong there.
As if it doesn't belong there.
And in some ways CS Lewis makesthe argument a miracle, by
definition, can't be somethingthat's normally experienced,
(20:04):
right?
And yet he also makes the samepoint, which is you know, jesus,
turning water into wine wasmiraculous.
And he said but isn't all winejust water turned into wine?
It just takes a little bitlonger for the grapes to draw it
from the ground, and then thefermentation process, and then
the barreling and all theseother things that happen.
He's like all wine is waterturned into wine.
Jesus just kind of expeditedthe process.
(20:25):
And so why is this relevant toPsalms and secure attachment?
It's because I want to bereally concerned with the point
that you so helpfully brought up, which is don't just go
supernatural on this.
In other words, let me use thelanguage of Kurt Thompson, who I
referenced earlier.
He's got a book called the Soulof Shame and in there he has
this quote he says our patternsof attachment deeply influence
(20:45):
the way we experience ourrelationship with God, for God
has to deal with the same brainthat we do.
He engages the sameproclivities we have for
avoiding or being anxious aboutthe intimacy of relationships.
It is not as if we get to putour brains, which are wired in a
particular way, through ourattachment patterns, on the
shelf and somehow draw on aseparate one when it comes to
(21:08):
dealing with God.
That would be we don't get tojust become supernatural in our
relationship with God, but thenwe naturally relate to everybody
else.
It doesn't work that way.
God comes to the same set ofneural networks that our friends
, parents, spouse, children orenemies do.
So the way you relate to yourfriends, parents, spouse,
children or enemies is probablypretty indicative of how you
(21:30):
relate to God.
If you're not a very good, ifyou're not very good at relating
to your spouse or your friendsor your enemies or your
neighbors, you're probably notgoing to be very good at
relating to God.
And so if you don't actuallyknow how to feel, felt and sense
the nearness and intimacy andpresence of a human, you
probably should expect you'renot going to very much
(21:51):
experience that from God.
That's essentially what KurtThompson's arguing, because the
same proclivities you have in arelationship with other people
is going to show up in the wayyou relate to God.
Now, god is free.
God is always free.
So God is not bound by myattachment defects.
He can always break through anddoes truly.
(22:11):
He really does.
Ephesians 3 talks about thisability for God to
supernaturally tease that wordagain, for the spirit to come
and to strengthen us so that wecan receive the love of God that
surpasses knowledge.
Right, and so there's thisbreakthrough.
That's real and true.
And yet the ordinary means bywhich God relates to us is
through the same neural networks, the same attachment style that
(22:34):
we relate to our coworkers andour friends and the people that
we spend time with.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah Well, and you're framing it that way, and we
could even double down onframing it the other way of the
way.
I am inclined to relate withGod, or relate to God is very
much the same way.
I would relate to closest peoplein my life, so parents growing
up, siblings, but then spousefriends, neighbors and kind of
expanding the circles therespouse friends, neighbors and
(23:02):
kind of expanding the circlesthere.
It makes me think of just theidea that we talk about how we
relate to God as a personalrelationship and so, if it is
true that we say it is, you'rerelating to a person and so
there's not a special category,for well, I relate to God in
this way.
That's right, and I relate toeveryone else in my life this
(23:25):
other, completely different way.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, that's a really good way to say it.
In fact, you know, if they'renot persuaded by us or by Kurt
Thompson, let's have the Biblespeak here.
There we go.
So, john, in 1 John, chapterfour, verse 20.
Now reminder John is thebeloved disciple who inclined
his head on the chest of Jesusand heard the very heartbeat of
(23:48):
the incarnate holy God of theuniverse.
So that's somebody who has avantage point into some things,
right, I mean, like he knowssome things.
This is what John says in 1John 4, 20.
If anyone says, quote I loveGod, end quote and hates his
brother, he's a liar.
For he who does not love hisbrother, whom he has seen,
(24:09):
cannot love God whom he has notseen.
What's John doing there?
He's saying, listen, you couldflip it the other way and say,
oh, I've got this wonderfulrelationship between me and God.
Like we.
Just, we have a.
I have great quiet times.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It's so rich we're vibing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's right.
I'm getting all the Holy Spiritfeels like it's amazing.
But then I kind of frankly, I'mkind of a jerk, or let's just
say I'm pretty, I'm passive,aggressive, or I'm somewhat
emotionally avoidant, or I havehesitancy to offer my need in
(24:44):
relationship, or I have very lowemotional intelligence, very
low EQ, or, you know, keepfilling the blanks.
I have a.
I have a kind of a track recordof broken and ruptured
relationships.
None of them are my fault, ofcourse.
Right, that's true.
If that's true, john's sayingyou're a liar about your
relationship with God.
In fact, you actually haveprobably tricked yourself into
thinking it's way better than itreally is.
Now.
Okay, take John on with thatone, not me, because I think
(25:07):
that there's strong languagethere John is using.
But what he's saying is he'strying to inextricably link the
first and second greatcommandments.
That to love the Lord, your God,with all of your heart, soul,
mind and strength, but to notlove your neighbor as yourself
is a contradiction in terms.
You cannot do that.
And so this is relevant toPsalms and secure attachment,
(25:28):
because I believe the book ofPsalms is intended to help us
heal our attachment, the way inwhich we attach to primary
caregivers, friends, spouses,leaders, god all of these
different ways that we canrelate to people.
I actually believe praying,meditating, living in the book
of Psalms has the ability tobring healing to those areas so
(25:52):
that we can actually relate toGod and our neighbor better.
So with that I want to look atPsalm 22.
Okay, because I'm kind of goingback to the beginning a little
bit here.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, let's even just recap just a little bit just
kind of like plot, how we got towhere we even landed.
Right now we started out.
We kind of gave background onthis thing called attachment
theory.
We defined what it is forpeople not necessarily as
granular as we will in maybeanother episode.
We just sort of laid out thethree defining features of the
(26:23):
attachment theory.
We haven't talked aboutattachment styles yet.
We're saving that for anotherone it's going to be a good one.
You mentioned feeling feltalong the way.
We haven't talked about thesignificance of something like
that.
We've talked about just theplace of Psalms in the history
of Christian church very briefly, how we're engaging it in just
our Bible reading plan, and thenalso the interconnectedness of
(26:47):
how we relate to everyone in ourlives, including God.
So, god, and so horizontal andvertical, the interconnected one
is not special and the otherones you're broken or you know.
They have the same not exactsame status, but they are very
similar to one another.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And so then now Psalm 22.
Let's look at Psalm 22 togetherand that was a great recap, by
the way, oh thank you and thereason why we want to look at.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
I was listening.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
We want to look at Psalm 22 together is because I
think there's something reallyrelevant here.
To kind of back up a little bitIn psychology, there's this
language of family of origin.
So this is the primarycaregivers you grew up with.
For most people throughouthistory, that's mother, father,
siblings Plenty of people,that's mother, father, siblings
(27:38):
Actually this is probably moreof the majority and then
generations in the home too.
That's probably the majoritytoday and throughout history
that you'd have grandmas,grandpas, aunts, uncles, all
kind of in this tight familyknit environment.
That's your family of origin,right?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Or it's your origin story, if you want to be more
dramatic about it.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's right, yep.
And so if you use even like afour chapter story to describe
the meta narrative of theuniverse, which is creation,
fall, redemption, restoration,we also have a four chapter
story and this would be in thecreation category, right, and
some of your fall it comes fromyour family of origin, like who
are you?
Where are you from?
What were your early childhoodexperiences?
(28:17):
What formed you early on, forbetter or for worse?
Right, all of those thingshappen and it actually starts in
utero.
It starts before you're evenborn, through things called
epigenetics and the state ofanxiety that your mother's in
while she's, you know, whileyou're getting all of your
nutrients and things like thatthrough her in her body, right,
right?
So those kinds of things.
If her cortisol levels are high, you're going to internalize
(28:39):
those as a pre, you know, as ababy in utero, essentially.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, there's some wild statistics with that which
we can get into in a laterepisode.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The effects that it has.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, and so there's something called the ACEs scale
or the ACEs questionnaire, whichis Adverse Childhood
Experiences, ace, and the ACEshas 10 questions to it.
There's some other ones thathave added a few more around
growing up in under-resourcedareas, things like that.
But basically what it comesdown to is if you have a lot of
adverse childhood experiences,you are more likely to have
things like drug addiction,dropout of school, higher
(29:19):
unemployment rates, variouscardiovascular diseases.
I mean it is unbelievable thecorrelation between your various
cardiovascular diseases.
I mean it is unbelievable thecorrelation between your adverse
childhood experiences and yourlater in life experience of what
it means to be a human.
So all that is a way to kind ofclear my throat to say your
early childhood formation withyour mother and your father is
(29:41):
very formative, or lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Or lack thereof In a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
It's exactly right.
So let's look at Psalm 22,which is known as the my God, my
God, why have you forsaken me?
It's known as kind of acrucifixion Psalm in a lot of
ways, but in Psalm 22, versenine, it says this speaking to
God, yet you are he who took mefrom the womb.
You made me trust you at mymother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you
(30:09):
have been my God.
Be not far from me, for troubleis near and there's none to
help.
Okay, so the psalmist hereseems to be making a case for
from my mother's womb you'vebeen my God.
Okay, our Baptist brothers andsisters might have to wrestle
with that one a little bit.
Been my God Okay, our Baptistbrothers and sisters might have
to wrestle with that one alittle bit.
There's a way in which John theBaptist is a great example.
(30:30):
There was a way in which Johnthe Baptist recognized Jesus,
the Messiah in utero, left inElizabeth's womb.
Right, there is a knowledge ofGod, it seems to me here.
You made me trust you.
At my mother's breasts, there'sa knowledge of God, a trust in
God that can develop beforethings like language develop,
things like the ability to crawldevelop right.
(30:53):
I mean, one of the firstexperiences that a child has is
to be laid on its mother'sbreast and to be able to draw
sustenance right.
And the psalmist is saying thatactually is God teaching that
child how to trust God throughthe secure, attached
relationship with the child'smother.
(31:14):
So I think that this is where Iwould argue that attachment
theory is not, it's not new inone sense.
It's been codified and clarified, thank God, by modern science,
but it's been around for a longtime.
So I want to read this quotefrom Louis Cozzolino as far as I
know, not a follower of Jesus.
He has a book called theNeuroscience of Human
(31:35):
Relationships.
The subtitle is calledAttachment and the Developing
Social Brain.
This is a nerdy textbook okay,but as I'm reading it I am
taking note of things that arerelevant to the Psalms and
secure attachment, like this oneQuote should we think of our
mothers as our first true loves?
We're touched, held, kissed, fed, cared for and rocked to sleep
(31:59):
by our mothers.
We gaze into their eyes andlearn the joy of connection and
the pain of separation.
Early in life we learn thesmells, sights, touches and
sounds of our mother's presence,unconsciously associating these
experiences with our bodily andemotional states.
We all have what has beencalled an internalized mother, a
network of visceral, somaticand emotional memories of our
(32:22):
interactions with our mothers,which are thought to serve as
the core of self-esteem, ourability to self-soothe and the
foundation of our adultrelationships.
This early, pre-verbal dyadrelationship between mom and
child establishes the biological, behavioral and psychological
structure of our expectationsabout other people, the world
(32:46):
and the future.
And I would add and God?
I don't think Cosalino believesthere's a God.
So I'm going to add and God,read that again this early
relationship, pre-verbalrelationship between mom and
child establishes the biological, behavioral and psychological
structure of our expectationsabout other people, the world
and the future, and God.
(33:06):
That sounds a lot like Psalm 22, verse 9.
And so why is this such a bigdeal?
Let me ask you that, nate,because I'll answer the question
.
But what do you hear in this?
What seems significant aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yeah, to me I'm hearing a convergence of the
best of the wisdom thatpsychologists and scientists
have, which we might even say isbecause of common grace, is
dovetailing into something thatis explained in Scripture.
But they're kind of mutually,they shed light on each other.
It's not as if you hadmeditated on Psalm 22 long
(33:42):
enough you could have gotten tothat quote.
It's like I don't think youcould unpack all that, but it
changes the way you read Psalm22.
Now you're like, okay, theseseems like these are talking
about the same thing and theymutually inform one another such
that it enhances how Iunderstand both things.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I read that quote differently.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I read Psalm 22 differently, because it's all
God's creation and it's hisrevelation through multiple
means that I'm coming in contactwith so good.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
My son, augie, and I do this thing called Science
Saturday, and I've catechizedhim.
So I say, augie, why do we doScience Saturday?
All we do is we choose a topicand we study it together that
day.
And Augie, why do we do ScienceSaturday?
He says Psalm 111, 2, great arethe works of the Lord, studied
by all who delight in them,which is my maybe one verse
(34:32):
summary of science that theworks of the Lord are really
great.
The relationship between motherand child is a really
incredible thing that Godcreated.
He designed it that way right.
Great are the works of the Lord, and those who delight in the
works of the Lord they studythose things.
That's what a good scientistdoes.
I think Cosolino is a goodscientist.
He does really good science,and so he's studying the works
(34:54):
of the Lord, even though hewouldn't call them that, and
he's a good observer, he's agood reflector, he's a good
communicator of what he observesin those ways, and he's
observed the relationshipbetween mother and child and in
many ways it sounds similar toPsalm 22, verses nine and 10.
Again, you are he who took mefrom the womb.
You made me trust you at mymother's breasts.
(35:15):
On you was I cast for my birthand from my mother's womb you
have been my God.
Now we'll wrap up here, but it'snot for nothing that the 10
commandments, historically, havebeen broken into kind of two
sections.
The first four are thecommandments about how you love
God and the next six arecommandments about how you love
(35:35):
your neighbor.
Now, the bridge commandment,arguably, is commandments four
or five, right, four beingkeeping the Sabbath, five being
honor your father and mother.
Now, if what I'm arguing istrue, that the way you learn to
trust your mother and yourfather, your early attachment
figures, is actually directlyconnected to your ability and
(35:56):
capacity to trust God, apartfrom the Holy Spirit
dramatically changing yourhardwiring, your neurology or
your neural networks, rather, ifthat's true that mother and
father are actually meant asgifts to their children to help
them learn to attach with Godand trust God in the ways that
they attach to their mother andfather and trust them, then it
(36:20):
makes sense that the fifthcommandment honoring your father
and mother would be a bridgebetween how do I love God and
how do I love my neighbor,because I'm learning to love God
through loving and honoring momand dad and I'm learning to
love my neighbor throughhonoring and loving my mom and
dad.
They are this bridge betweenyou're relating to God and
you're relating to others.
(36:40):
Your family of origin reallymatters.
Your early attachment figuresreally matter, because that's
going to shape the way youattach to God, the way you
relate to God and the way thatyou can relate to other people,
and I believe the book of Psalmshas the power to actually help
rewire our neural networks inthe ways in which we relate to
(37:00):
God, even if we've learned somepoor relating to humans some
poor attachment styles.
We had maybe the absence of animportant attachment figure
growing up.
I believe the book of Psalms ismeant to develop in us.
The title of this podcast, thePsalms and secure attachment.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah Well, I don't think I could sum it up any
better than that, but I do thinkthat kind of points us, gives
us kind of a road ahead of.
This was not intended to be acomprehensive hey, now you're
going to understand everythingabout how the Psalms and secure
attachment relate.
It's just more of a let'sintroduce the topic and then you
and I are going to have a fewmore conversations, and we
(37:36):
already mentioned we've got totalk about there's different
styles of attachment.
We've got to talk about some ofthese other things and then see
how the Psalms are going toshed light on how we understand
those things.
So, Ben, I'm glad we had timetoday to sit down and talk
through some things, and you andI have had several
conversations off air about this.
So I kind of have a hint ofwhere we might be going, but I
(37:57):
hope that, as everyone else islistening to this, they're just
as excited about it.
And Summer in the Psalms is alittle bit farther on down the
road and we didn't say what it'sgoing to be.
But I think listeners might beable to piece some of the things
together if they're payingattention.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Well, Nate, it's such a gift to have this
conversation with you becauseyou're a theologian who cares
about psychology, neuroscience,attachment theory.
I'm a pastor, I'm a therapist.
I really care about thesepsychological categories, but I
also really care about theologyand understanding historical
theology and biblical studiesand things like that, and so we
have different emphases but theycompliment each other pretty
(38:32):
well for this conversation inparticular Right, because in
some sense, once upon a time, Iwas a psychology major.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
So it is my roots before I went to Samaria and did
what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
So we're looking forward to future conversations
as we unpack the Psalms andsecure attachment together
Absolutely.
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and today I'm with our pastor of
formation and mission, benjaminKant.
It's been a while since we'vedone one of these, it's true.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
This is one of my favorite things we get to do
together, Nate, so the fact thatwe haven't done in a while
something's not working righthere.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I know that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
We're hoping this is what kind of gets us back on
track, because we've got a bigseries of I can't say it's a big
series, so the Psalms andsecure attachment.
Secure attachment, of course,is a phrase from a body of
(00:53):
psychological literature calledattachment theory.
That's a really big deal, right?
So I could give you somehistory on it, but John Bowlby
is kind of the founder of it andhe was really cutting against
the grain in his day and age and, from what I gather, he was
kind of neglected for a while.
(01:13):
Like nobody really took himseriously in his time I
shouldn't say nobody, but he wasnot kind of a main stage
thinker in psychology until alittle bit more recently Some
people kind of uncovered hiswork and it's now in many ways
all the rage.
And one of the things I reallyappreciate about attachment
theory is that it has this viewof human beings that were
(01:34):
fundamentally relational, whichis very resonant with biblical
anthropology that humans, madein the image of a triune God,
have a relational ontology.
That's a fancy word, for ourvery beings are developed and
sustained in relationship, firstwith God as our creator and we
(01:55):
as creatures, but then second aspeople who are born in
relationship and sustainedthrough relationship.
It's not for nothing thatsolitary confinement is like the
worst punishment that we haveto offer prisoners, because that
is profoundly damaging to arelational being like a human
being.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, yeah.
It's almost as if that's youthink about.
I don't want to go down thisroad too far, but capital
punishment.
It's like you're almost takingsomeone's life away from them
without putting them to death.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, yeah, that's right.
In fact, I'm pretty convincedthat the two fundamental fears
that humans carry around withthem are the fear of death and
the fear of social rejection.
That those are allOstracization is almost read by
the nervous system as the sameas a physical threat, because
social threats and physicalthreats are equally as damning
(02:46):
and damaging, for a human being.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well, I think we've even talked about that in
previous episodes.
I'm not sure I could go backand collect them, but we've
talked about like just onlinebehavior and just the way people
like with people being canceled.
It's doing violence to them ina way that's it's not physical,
but the experience of it may aswell be similar to physical
violence.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah.
So this is relevant because, ifthat's true, when we read the
book of Psalms we're going tosee things like that.
We're actually going to seepeople really concerned about
the threatening words that otherpeople use about them, which is
exactly what you read in thePsalms.
We both have read GordonWedham's book on the Psalms and
one of the things he points outis that, of the 10 commandments,
(03:26):
the one that the Psalms seem tobe most concerned with is
bearing false witness, is theviolation of using your tongue
to destroy, which is reallyremarkable that this book of
Psalms would take that one soseriously, and I think there's
reasons for why that is thatwe'll get to unpack together
here.
But so we just kind of verysimply touched on secure
(03:47):
attachment.
But I want to talk about thePsalms for a moment and then
kind of come back and bring themtogether.
So the Psalms are arguably themost psychologically rich text
in the entire Bible, in thewhole 66 book canon of the
scriptures, and that's not myopinion, although it is, uh, but
it's not only my opinion Um, uh, athanasius and Augustine and
(04:09):
Calvin.
Calvin called it an anatomy ofall parts of the human soul,
which sounds a little bitpsychological to me Right.
Um, I believe he's ahead of histime.
He was ahead of his time,that's right.
And then Kurt Thompson pickedup that phrase and used it for
his first, uh, his first book,which is fantastic and so, which
is on interpersonalneurobiology and talks a lot
about attachment theory.
And so Augustine talked aboutthe Psalms as being a mirror in
(04:34):
which our very selves arereflected back to us, but in a
sanctified way.
And the Athanasius andAugustine both kind of work out
the therapeutic that's theactual word that's used the
therapeutic nature of the Bookof Psalms.
And so it was not unusual forthe Psalms to have a kind of a
(04:55):
heart place, like a place at theheart of Judeo-Christian
spirituality.
And really that's kind of upuntil modern day, right.
If you get a New Testament,usually it has the book of
Psalms and maybe the Proverbsattached to it.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, it's never Leviticus and Ezekiel.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
The two books that get thrownin.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, that's right, and so the Psalms teach us how
to live out this covenantalrelationship with God, where we
both come to the table, god andwe who are in covenant with God.
They train us in that kind ofrelationship, and they do that
by helping us really do what CSLewis called the preface, the
prayer that precedes all prayers, which is let it be the real I
(05:37):
who speaks and let it be thereal you to whom I speak.
In other words, the constantthreat or danger in relating to
God is that I would relate toGod as a false God, making him
into whatever idolatrous image Iwant him to be, or I would
relate to God from my false selfand put forward a mask or a
persona or some fake version ofwho I am, even though God
(05:59):
refuses to love anybody, but thereal me, the true self, and so
the Psalms train us to take offour masks, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And you didn't necessarily think of it this way
.
Well, I can't say.
I know what you think, but partof the pivot to the McShane
Bible reading plan that westarted earlier this year is
that it gets you through thePsalms twice in a year, and so
at any given point during theyear you're in some section of
the Psalms.
At the time of this recordingwe just started one, but that
means we're going to be workingthrough the Psalms chapter or
(06:30):
two a day for the next severalmonths and then later on in the
fall we'll do the same thing,and so if you really are
engaging this plan, you're goingto find yourself in the Psalms
almost more often than not.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, a good bit, which is really great and very
typical to historic Christianpractice.
Christians throughout historyhave taken the Psalms very
seriously and had them as a partof their diet, their daily diet
of what it means to walk withJesus.
So as I was studying the Psalmsthis was probably seven years
(07:05):
ago now I read this book calledSeeing the Psalms by William
Brown.
Um, is that right William Brown?
I think so.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, and it's that is a guy that writes on that
type of thing.
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
And, uh, it's, and.
And so his book Seeing thePsalms is about the theology of
metaphor in the book of Psalms.
Um, one of the distinctives ofHebrew poetry is its use of
metaphor, and it's rich in itsuse of metaphor, and so he
essentially shows how there arethese kind of meta metaphors, if
you will, or these kind ofanchor metaphors, and then from
(07:37):
those anchor metaphors come allthese related metaphors.
Okay, so, simply put, thenumber one metaphor in the book
of Psalms is and I wonder whatour listeners would guess- yeah,
let's even just leave it therefor a minute.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What is the number one metaphor in Psalms?
And just get a clear, distinct.
What do you think it is?
Just kind of sit there with it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
You might think Psalm 23,.
Right, the Lord is my shepherd.
You might think about Psalm 16,where the Lord is my portion.
You could think about Psalm 150, about how let everything that
has breath give praise, likethis breath, nature of what it
(08:21):
means to praise.
You've given them all thesewrong answers only.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's right, isn't that?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
amazing.
The number one metaphor in thebook of Psalms is refuge.
It's refuge, and so what refuge?
Though?
It's one of those metametaphors where it connects with
a bunch of other ones.
So today is the 4th.
It's April 4th that we'rerecording this on, and so I have
a practice of taking the month,the day of the month, and
(08:45):
multiplying it by 5.
, and that gives me 5 psalms toread, to pray, to think through
for that day.
So I take the 4th of the month,multiply it by 5.
That's 20.
And then I back up 5.
So the psalms for today arepsalms 16 through 20.
Okay, so I know that wasconfusing, but Let the listener
work out the math.
Yeah, that's right Track withme here.
(09:06):
So let me just this is just anexample.
We could have recorded thisyesterday or tomorrow.
I would have done tried thesame thing.
Now listen to this Psalm 16, thefirst Psalm for today.
Preserve me, o God, for in youI take refuge, literally the
first line of Psalm 16.
You get to Psalm 17.
And if you're just kind ofscrolling your eyes through this
and looking for these, youmight think you might find 17,
(09:27):
verse seven.
Wondrously, show your steadfastlove, oh, savior of those who
seek refuge from theiradversaries at your right hand.
Okay, so then we'll go on toPsalm 18.
It doesn't get very, you don'thave to go very far.
This one is just like David'spulling out all the stops.
(09:48):
I love you, o Yahweh, mystrength, yahweh is here.
It is my rock, my fortress andmy deliverer, my God, my rock in
whom I take refuge, my shieldand the horn of my salvation, my
stronghold.
I call upon the Lord, who'sworthy to be praised, and save
me from my enemies.
Okay, so there's a good exampleof refuge.
Has these other relatedmetaphors like rock shield,
(10:08):
stronghold, strong tower,fortress.
Those are all refuge-likemetaphors.
Another one would be the birdmetaphors of hide me under the
shadow of your wings.
Or the worship metaphors of letme enter into your sanctuary
and you hide me under the shadowof your wings.
Or the worship metaphors of letme enter into your sanctuary
and you hide me under the coverof your tent.
Psalm 27 talks about Lift mehigh upon a rock right.
(10:30):
All of these metaphors that thePsalms use are talking about
the exact same thing, which isrefuge, a place where you seek
safety, security from thedifficulties of life, whether
inside of you or around you, andso let's now go back to secure
(10:51):
attachment.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Because, I said earlier, john Bowlby is the
founder and he had somebodynamed Mary Ainsworth who kind of
continued his work.
And Mary Ainsworth took Bowl of, continued his work and Mary
Ainsworth took Bowlby's work anddistilled it.
And here's the three kind ofkey fundamental criteria for
secure attachment.
So you know that there's anattachment relationship when the
(11:13):
first one is there's amaintenance of proximity.
Okay so the language isproximity seeking behavior.
In other words, people preferto be near an attachment figure,
especially in times of stressor need.
Now, hopefully, those of youwho know much or anything about
the book of Psalms, yourecognize how the entire book of
Psalms is proximity seekingbehavior.
(11:34):
Yeah, all you have to do ispick up the book of Psalms and
just pray through Psalm 16,preserve me, oh God, for in you
I take refuge.
That's proximity-seekingbehavior.
So that's the first part.
Now here's the second part isthe provision of a safe haven.
And so the safe haven is whenan attachment figure relieves an
attached individual's distressand provides comfort,
(11:55):
encouragement and support.
Okay so, proximity, maintenanceof proximity, a safe haven.
And the third one is a securebase, and I'm going to
distinguish those two in amoment.
A secure base is when anattachment figure increases the
attached individual's sense ofsecurity, which in turn sustains
exploration, risk-taking andself-development.
Okay so this is how a securebase and a safe haven works.
(12:17):
Just think if you go to anyplayground where kiddos are
running around and having a goodtime and their parents are kind
of encircling around theoutside of the playground, right
, you'll see this happen, wherea toddler will venture off away
from mom or dad's legs and kindof go do something and you might
actually watch they'll do thisthing.
Where they'll look back andjust check in every now and
(12:39):
again to make sure their mom ordad is still there.
And then let's just say they'reclimbing a little bit too high
and they trip and fall and hurtthemselves.
What do they do?
They immediately beeline itright back to mom or dad and mom
and dad hopefully picks them up, calms them, soothes them, and
then they can put them back down.
And what happens?
The kid goes and ventures offagain.
That's all three of thesethings happening.
(13:02):
There's a secure base, which isthe place from which the child
launches out into a potentiallydangerous world.
But it's okay that it'sdangerous, because I always know
I have a safe haven to comeback to.
I always have this place.
I can come back to where I'mgoing to be okay and I'm going
to be nurtured and I'm going toexperience my distress, soothe,
I'm going to receive comfort,encouragement, support, whatever
I need, and then, okay, I canlaunch back into the world from
(13:24):
my secure base again.
So, but that movement back andforth from the secure base and
the safe haven is what's calledmaintenance of proximity or
proximity seeking behavior, andso that dynamic is exactly what
we see happening constantly inthe book of Psalms when we talk
about this refuge metaphor.
So, nate, you know the Psalmswell, you know attachment theory
well.
What does that evoke in you,just even as we kind of walk
(13:46):
through those things?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I mean, if it is true and I'm not questioning the
truth that refuge is this sortof meta metaphor, it seems
unquestionable.
All you have to do is just readthe Psalms.
And there's other metaphors,but even the ones that you
mentioned the Lord is myshepherd is one it's like.
Well, that's not a refugemetaphor, but if you look at the
language of even that Psalm, itis the things that you just
(14:12):
mentioned.
The shepherd needs to be nearby.
The shepherd is creating a safehaven for the sheep.
Yea, though I walk through thevalley of the shadow of death, I
will fear no evil.
It also has an interestingproximity maintenance in the
pronouns.
The shepherd is a he, sodistance early in the Psalm and
then later in the Psalm it's ayou.
(14:33):
Now he's moved closer and it'sunclear necessarily whether the
sheep's gotten closer, theshepherd's gotten closer, but
either way the gap has beenclosed so that I feel safe.
And so it's safety, securityimagery, even if it's not refuge
metaphor imagery.
So once you expand it like that, it's like well, actually it's
maybe even more pervasive in thePsalms.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, that's so well said.
Yeah, why is it that I'm okaywalking through the valley of
the shadow of death?
Because you are with me, yourrod and your staff.
They comfort me.
Comfort is one of the thingsthat a safe haven provides, and
so I think there's so muchrichness and so much potential
here.
And I want to look at Psalm 22,because I think this one's
(15:18):
actually where this initiallyreally hooked my attention and
began to get worked out for me.
But before we do, I really wantto put this question out there
that it's a working question forme.
In other words, I don't have aconclusive answer that makes me
feel like, yeah, I've buttonedthat one up and the question is
okay.
So this makes sense.
(15:38):
If you're talking about aphysical mom or a physical dad
to whom the child can run andliterally experience strong arms
, lifting them up, holding them,soothing them, calming them
right, Looking into their eyes,regulating their right brain,
regulating the child's rightbrain and their nervous system,
calming the child's nervoussystem this is all the things
that happen in attachment,secure, attached relationships.
(16:00):
What does it mean to takerefuge in a God who is spirit,
which is what we confess?
God is a spirit, and so that'sa real question and I think the
Psalms tutor us in that.
But it means that in some wayswe have to take refuge by faith,
not by sense.
And yet I genuinely believe thekind of refuge that the Lord
(16:24):
provides, the secure base andthe safe haven that the Lord
provides is relevant to ourphysical natures.
In other words, it actually, ifyou take God as your refuge and
you find security and safety inhim, if you seek proximity to
him, it actually can regulateyour nervous system.
It actually can make you, itcan bring you back into a window
(16:46):
of tolerance and out of fight,flight, freeze, whatever your
propensity might be in a momentof fear.
I really sincerely believe that.
But then I really want to workthis out in a practical way.
Like, what does it mean to takerefuge in a God who is spirit,
who's not an actual tower thatyou could run into and like shut
the door and lock it and feelthe rock walls around you kind
(17:07):
of encasing you in Right?
That's a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It is a real challenge.
Yeah, Because it is a.
You don't want to go too far inone direction and say, well,
it's just all supernatural Like.
if you just have enough faith,the spirit will rewire your
nervous system so that you feelthese things where you're just
sort of you're making it toomystical at that point.
But that's also a live option,because it's because God is
(17:31):
spirit and because his spiritdwells within me.
That doesn't not affect mybiology.
There's maybe ways I couldhinder its effect on my biology.
There's maybe ways I couldhinder its effect on my biology.
There's maybe ways I couldenhance its effect on my biology
.
But there's not a sense inwhich that does not have some
sort of biological effect, evenif it can't be mapped
biologically.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That's such a good point.
And in fact the wordsupernatural we use it a good
bit.
It's not a Bible word, thoughit's actually from.
You'd probably know better thanme on this.
I think it's a fairly modernword.
I don't think you find Aquinasand Augustine and you don't find
the church using the wordsupernatural that often.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I don't think it's a well, I could even clarify
that's even a.
It's a modern category, andwhen we say modern, we really
mean theology donepost-enlightenment, post, Even
just the creation of religion assomething that's separate from
philosophy or separate fromtheology.
Now we have a natural worldthat's like a self-contained
(18:31):
thing.
So a supernatural thing issomething that's outside.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Then eventually you're like well then, how do we
?
Even we can't measure that, sothen that doesn't even exist.
And so yeah, I would saysupernatural and natural are
very modern, they're a littlesketchy categories.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Right, they're not biblical categories.
They're not biblical categoriesbecause this is the way the
Bible talks about the Son.
In Matthew 5, jesus says thatthe Father makes his Son shine
on the wicked and the righteous,on the evil, the good, the just
and the unjust.
Okay, so if that's true, thevery natural thing, like the sun
(19:10):
rising and setting every day,is apparently, it's God, the
Father, making the sun risewhich sounds very supernatural,
but it's not.
It's actually God'sprovidential care of his
creation that is sustaining allthings at all times.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And that's actually the important point.
There is the view of the authorof the Bibles and a biblical
view.
It's not nature, it's creation.
It's creation, that's right.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
With the creator.
That is a very importantdistinction.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So, it is the creator's creation.
He interacts with it in a waythat's not.
It's just doing its thing, andthen sometimes he intervenes.
That's not the way that wewould want people to think about
it.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
That's right, that's so good, and and so, in that
sense, a miracle, uh, is a realconcern for people who have a
natural supernatural dichotomy.
Um, a miracle is thein-breaking of the supernatural
into the natural, um, and yet,as if it doesn't belong there.
As if it doesn't belong there.
And in some ways CS Lewis makesthe argument a miracle, by
definition, can't be somethingthat's normally experienced,
(20:04):
right?
And yet he also makes the samepoint, which is you know, jesus,
turning water into wine wasmiraculous.
And he said but isn't all winejust water turned into wine?
It just takes a little bitlonger for the grapes to draw it
from the ground, and then thefermentation process, and then
the barreling and all theseother things that happen.
He's like all wine is waterturned into wine.
Jesus just kind of expeditedthe process.
(20:25):
And so why is this relevant toPsalms and secure attachment?
It's because I want to bereally concerned with the point
that you so helpfully brought up, which is don't just go
supernatural on this.
In other words, let me use thelanguage of Kurt Thompson, who I
referenced earlier.
He's got a book called the Soulof Shame and in there he has
this quote he says our patternsof attachment deeply influence
(20:45):
the way we experience ourrelationship with God, for God
has to deal with the same brainthat we do.
He engages the sameproclivities we have for
avoiding or being anxious aboutthe intimacy of relationships.
It is not as if we get to putour brains, which are wired in a
particular way, through ourattachment patterns, on the
shelf and somehow draw on aseparate one when it comes to
(21:08):
dealing with God.
That would be we don't get tojust become supernatural in our
relationship with God, but thenwe naturally relate to everybody
else.
It doesn't work that way.
God comes to the same set ofneural networks that our friends
, parents, spouse, children orenemies do.
So the way you relate to yourfriends, parents, spouse,
children or enemies is probablypretty indicative of how you
(21:30):
relate to God.
If you're not a very good, ifyou're not very good at relating
to your spouse or your friendsor your enemies or your
neighbors, you're probably notgoing to be very good at
relating to God.
And so if you don't actuallyknow how to feel, felt and sense
the nearness and intimacy andpresence of a human, you
probably should expect you'renot going to very much
(21:51):
experience that from God.
That's essentially what KurtThompson's arguing, because the
same proclivities you have in arelationship with other people
is going to show up in the wayyou relate to God.
Now, god is free.
God is always free.
So God is not bound by myattachment defects.
He can always break through anddoes truly.
(22:11):
He really does.
Ephesians 3 talks about thisability for God to
supernaturally tease that wordagain, for the spirit to come
and to strengthen us so that wecan receive the love of God that
surpasses knowledge.
Right, and so there's thisbreakthrough.
That's real and true.
And yet the ordinary means bywhich God relates to us is
through the same neural networks, the same attachment style that
(22:34):
we relate to our coworkers andour friends and the people that
we spend time with.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah Well, and you're framing it that way, and we
could even double down onframing it the other way of the
way.
I am inclined to relate withGod, or relate to God is very
much the same way.
I would relate to closest peoplein my life, so parents growing
up, siblings, but then spousefriends, neighbors and kind of
expanding the circles therespouse friends, neighbors and
(23:02):
kind of expanding the circlesthere.
It makes me think of just theidea that we talk about how we
relate to God as a personalrelationship and so, if it is
true that we say it is, you'rerelating to a person and so
there's not a special category,for well, I relate to God in
this way.
That's right, and I relate toeveryone else in my life this
(23:25):
other, completely different way.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, that's a really good way to say it.
In fact, you know, if they'renot persuaded by us or by Kurt
Thompson, let's have the Biblespeak here.
There we go.
So, john, in 1 John, chapterfour, verse 20.
Now reminder John is thebeloved disciple who inclined
his head on the chest of Jesusand heard the very heartbeat of
(23:48):
the incarnate holy God of theuniverse.
So that's somebody who has avantage point into some things,
right, I mean, like he knowssome things.
This is what John says in 1John 4, 20.
If anyone says, quote I loveGod, end quote and hates his
brother, he's a liar.
For he who does not love hisbrother, whom he has seen,
(24:09):
cannot love God whom he has notseen.
What's John doing there?
He's saying, listen, you couldflip it the other way and say,
oh, I've got this wonderfulrelationship between me and God.
Like we.
Just, we have a.
I have great quiet times.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It's so rich we're vibing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's right.
I'm getting all the Holy Spiritfeels like it's amazing.
But then I kind of frankly, I'mkind of a jerk, or let's just
say I'm pretty, I'm passive,aggressive, or I'm somewhat
emotionally avoidant, or I havehesitancy to offer my need in
(24:44):
relationship, or I have very lowemotional intelligence, very
low EQ, or, you know, keepfilling the blanks.
I have a.
I have a kind of a track recordof broken and ruptured
relationships.
None of them are my fault, ofcourse.
Right, that's true.
If that's true, john's sayingyou're a liar about your
relationship with God.
In fact, you actually haveprobably tricked yourself into
thinking it's way better than itreally is.
Now.
Okay, take John on with thatone, not me, because I think
(25:07):
that there's strong languagethere John is using.
But what he's saying is he'strying to inextricably link the
first and second greatcommandments.
That to love the Lord, your God,with all of your heart, soul,
mind and strength, but to notlove your neighbor as yourself
is a contradiction in terms.
You cannot do that.
And so this is relevant toPsalms and secure attachment,
(25:28):
because I believe the book ofPsalms is intended to help us
heal our attachment, the way inwhich we attach to primary
caregivers, friends, spouses,leaders, god all of these
different ways that we canrelate to people.
I actually believe praying,meditating, living in the book
of Psalms has the ability tobring healing to those areas so
(25:52):
that we can actually relate toGod and our neighbor better.
So with that I want to look atPsalm 22.
Okay, because I'm kind of goingback to the beginning a little
bit here.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, let's even just recap just a little bit just
kind of like plot, how we got towhere we even landed.
Right now we started out.
We kind of gave background onthis thing called attachment
theory.
We defined what it is forpeople not necessarily as
granular as we will in maybeanother episode.
We just sort of laid out thethree defining features of the
(26:23):
attachment theory.
We haven't talked aboutattachment styles yet.
We're saving that for anotherone it's going to be a good one.
You mentioned feeling feltalong the way.
We haven't talked about thesignificance of something like
that.
We've talked about just theplace of Psalms in the history
of Christian church very briefly, how we're engaging it in just
our Bible reading plan, and thenalso the interconnectedness of
(26:47):
how we relate to everyone in ourlives, including God.
So, god, and so horizontal andvertical, the interconnected one
is not special and the otherones you're broken or you know.
They have the same not exactsame status, but they are very
similar to one another.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And so then now Psalm 22.
Let's look at Psalm 22 togetherand that was a great recap, by
the way, oh thank you and thereason why we want to look at.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
I was listening.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
We want to look at Psalm 22 together is because I
think there's something reallyrelevant here.
To kind of back up a little bitIn psychology, there's this
language of family of origin.
So this is the primarycaregivers you grew up with.
For most people throughouthistory, that's mother, father,
siblings Plenty of people,that's mother, father, siblings
(27:38):
Actually this is probably moreof the majority and then
generations in the home too.
That's probably the majoritytoday and throughout history
that you'd have grandmas,grandpas, aunts, uncles, all
kind of in this tight familyknit environment.
That's your family of origin,right?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Or it's your origin story, if you want to be more
dramatic about it.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's right, yep.
And so if you use even like afour chapter story to describe
the meta narrative of theuniverse, which is creation,
fall, redemption, restoration,we also have a four chapter
story and this would be in thecreation category, right, and
some of your fall it comes fromyour family of origin, like who
are you?
Where are you from?
What were your early childhoodexperiences?
(28:17):
What formed you early on, forbetter or for worse?
Right, all of those thingshappen and it actually starts in
utero.
It starts before you're evenborn, through things called
epigenetics and the state ofanxiety that your mother's in
while she's, you know, whileyou're getting all of your
nutrients and things like thatthrough her in her body, right,
right?
So those kinds of things.
If her cortisol levels are high, you're going to internalize
(28:39):
those as a pre, you know, as ababy in utero, essentially.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, there's some wild statistics with that which
we can get into in a laterepisode.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The effects that it has.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, and so there's something called the ACEs scale
or the ACEs questionnaire, whichis Adverse Childhood
Experiences, ace, and the ACEshas 10 questions to it.
There's some other ones thathave added a few more around
growing up in under-resourcedareas, things like that.
But basically what it comesdown to is if you have a lot of
adverse childhood experiences,you are more likely to have
things like drug addiction,dropout of school, higher
(29:19):
unemployment rates, variouscardiovascular diseases.
I mean it is unbelievable thecorrelation between your various
cardiovascular diseases.
I mean it is unbelievable thecorrelation between your adverse
childhood experiences and yourlater in life experience of what
it means to be a human.
So all that is a way to kind ofclear my throat to say your
early childhood formation withyour mother and your father is
(29:41):
very formative, or lack thereof.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Or lack thereof In a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
It's exactly right.
So let's look at Psalm 22,which is known as the my God, my
God, why have you forsaken me?
It's known as kind of acrucifixion Psalm in a lot of
ways, but in Psalm 22, versenine, it says this speaking to
God, yet you are he who took mefrom the womb.
You made me trust you at mymother's breasts.
On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you
(30:09):
have been my God.
Be not far from me, for troubleis near and there's none to
help.
Okay, so the psalmist hereseems to be making a case for
from my mother's womb you'vebeen my God.
Okay, our Baptist brothers andsisters might have to wrestle
with that one a little bit.
Been my God Okay, our Baptistbrothers and sisters might have
to wrestle with that one alittle bit.
There's a way in which John theBaptist is a great example.
(30:30):
There was a way in which Johnthe Baptist recognized Jesus,
the Messiah in utero, left inElizabeth's womb.
Right, there is a knowledge ofGod, it seems to me here.
You made me trust you.
At my mother's breasts, there'sa knowledge of God, a trust in
God that can develop beforethings like language develop,
things like the ability to crawldevelop right.
(30:53):
I mean, one of the firstexperiences that a child has is
to be laid on its mother'sbreast and to be able to draw
sustenance right.
And the psalmist is saying thatactually is God teaching that
child how to trust God throughthe secure, attached
relationship with the child'smother.
(31:14):
So I think that this is where Iwould argue that attachment
theory is not, it's not new inone sense.
It's been codified and clarified, thank God, by modern science,
but it's been around for a longtime.
So I want to read this quotefrom Louis Cozzolino as far as I
know, not a follower of Jesus.
He has a book called theNeuroscience of Human
(31:35):
Relationships.
The subtitle is calledAttachment and the Developing
Social Brain.
This is a nerdy textbook okay,but as I'm reading it I am
taking note of things that arerelevant to the Psalms and
secure attachment, like this oneQuote should we think of our
mothers as our first true loves?
We're touched, held, kissed, fed, cared for and rocked to sleep
(31:59):
by our mothers.
We gaze into their eyes andlearn the joy of connection and
the pain of separation.
Early in life we learn thesmells, sights, touches and
sounds of our mother's presence,unconsciously associating these
experiences with our bodily andemotional states.
We all have what has beencalled an internalized mother, a
network of visceral, somaticand emotional memories of our
(32:22):
interactions with our mothers,which are thought to serve as
the core of self-esteem, ourability to self-soothe and the
foundation of our adultrelationships.
This early, pre-verbal dyadrelationship between mom and
child establishes the biological, behavioral and psychological
structure of our expectationsabout other people, the world
(32:46):
and the future.
And I would add and God?
I don't think Cosalino believesthere's a God.
So I'm going to add and God,read that again this early
relationship, pre-verbalrelationship between mom and
child establishes the biological, behavioral and psychological
structure of our expectationsabout other people, the world
and the future, and God.
(33:06):
That sounds a lot like Psalm 22, verse 9.
And so why is this such a bigdeal?
Let me ask you that, nate,because I'll answer the question
.
But what do you hear in this?
What seems significant aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yeah, to me I'm hearing a convergence of the
best of the wisdom thatpsychologists and scientists
have, which we might even say isbecause of common grace, is
dovetailing into something thatis explained in Scripture.
But they're kind of mutually,they shed light on each other.
It's not as if you hadmeditated on Psalm 22 long
(33:42):
enough you could have gotten tothat quote.
It's like I don't think youcould unpack all that, but it
changes the way you read Psalm22.
Now you're like, okay, theseseems like these are talking
about the same thing and theymutually inform one another such
that it enhances how Iunderstand both things.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I read that quote differently.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I read Psalm 22 differently, because it's all
God's creation and it's hisrevelation through multiple
means that I'm coming in contactwith so good.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
My son, augie, and I do this thing called Science
Saturday, and I've catechizedhim.
So I say, augie, why do we doScience Saturday?
All we do is we choose a topicand we study it together that
day.
And Augie, why do we do ScienceSaturday?
He says Psalm 111, 2, great arethe works of the Lord, studied
by all who delight in them,which is my maybe one verse
(34:32):
summary of science that theworks of the Lord are really
great.
The relationship between motherand child is a really
incredible thing that Godcreated.
He designed it that way right.
Great are the works of the Lord, and those who delight in the
works of the Lord they studythose things.
That's what a good scientistdoes.
I think Cosolino is a goodscientist.
He does really good science,and so he's studying the works
(34:54):
of the Lord, even though hewouldn't call them that, and
he's a good observer, he's agood reflector, he's a good
communicator of what he observesin those ways, and he's
observed the relationshipbetween mother and child and in
many ways it sounds similar toPsalm 22, verses nine and 10.
Again, you are he who took mefrom the womb.
You made me trust you at mymother's breasts.
(35:15):
On you was I cast for my birthand from my mother's womb you
have been my God.
Now we'll wrap up here, but it'snot for nothing that the 10
commandments, historically, havebeen broken into kind of two
sections.
The first four are thecommandments about how you love
God and the next six arecommandments about how you love
(35:35):
your neighbor.
Now, the bridge commandment,arguably, is commandments four
or five, right, four beingkeeping the Sabbath, five being
honor your father and mother.
Now, if what I'm arguing istrue, that the way you learn to
trust your mother and yourfather, your early attachment
figures, is actually directlyconnected to your ability and
(35:56):
capacity to trust God, apartfrom the Holy Spirit
dramatically changing yourhardwiring, your neurology or
your neural networks, rather, ifthat's true that mother and
father are actually meant asgifts to their children to help
them learn to attach with Godand trust God in the ways that
they attach to their mother andfather and trust them, then it
(36:20):
makes sense that the fifthcommandment honoring your father
and mother would be a bridgebetween how do I love God and
how do I love my neighbor,because I'm learning to love God
through loving and honoring momand dad and I'm learning to
love my neighbor throughhonoring and loving my mom and
dad.
They are this bridge betweenyou're relating to God and
you're relating to others.
(36:40):
Your family of origin reallymatters.
Your early attachment figuresreally matter, because that's
going to shape the way youattach to God, the way you
relate to God and the way thatyou can relate to other people,
and I believe the book of Psalmshas the power to actually help
rewire our neural networks inthe ways in which we relate to
(37:00):
God, even if we've learned somepoor relating to humans some
poor attachment styles.
We had maybe the absence of animportant attachment figure
growing up.
I believe the book of Psalms ismeant to develop in us.
The title of this podcast, thePsalms and secure attachment.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah Well, I don't think I could sum it up any
better than that, but I do thinkthat kind of points us, gives
us kind of a road ahead of.
This was not intended to be acomprehensive hey, now you're
going to understand everythingabout how the Psalms and secure
attachment relate.
It's just more of a let'sintroduce the topic and then you
and I are going to have a fewmore conversations, and we
(37:36):
already mentioned we've got totalk about there's different
styles of attachment.
We've got to talk about some ofthese other things and then see
how the Psalms are going toshed light on how we understand
those things.
So, Ben, I'm glad we had timetoday to sit down and talk
through some things, and you andI have had several
conversations off air about this.
So I kind of have a hint ofwhere we might be going, but I
(37:57):
hope that, as everyone else islistening to this, they're just
as excited about it.
And Summer in the Psalms is alittle bit farther on down the
road and we didn't say what it'sgoing to be.
But I think listeners might beable to piece some of the things
together if they're payingattention.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Well, Nate, it's such a gift to have this
conversation with you becauseyou're a theologian who cares
about psychology, neuroscience,attachment theory.
I'm a pastor, I'm a therapist.
I really care about thesepsychological categories, but I
also really care about theologyand understanding historical
theology and biblical studiesand things like that, and so we
have different emphases but theycompliment each other pretty
(38:32):
well for this conversation inparticular Right, because in
some sense, once upon a time, Iwas a psychology major.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
So it is my roots before I went to Samaria and did
what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
So we're looking forward to future conversations
as we unpack the Psalms andsecure attachment together
Absolutely.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.