February 13, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, Nate Claiborne and Benjamin Kandt discuss the practice of engaging with Scripture as part of the Common Rhythm. The central theme revolves around prioritizing "Scripture before screens," emphasizing the importance of immersing oneself in God's word before being influenced by the myriad of voices from technology, social media, and daily distractions. Their discussion highlights the different ways people engage with Scripture—whether through reading, listening, studying, or meditating—and how the key posture should be one of receiving from God rather than merely completing a routine.
The conversation delves into the historical context of how Scripture has been engaged with over time, including communal memorization before the advent of the printing press. They also touch on practical strategies, such as using the M'Cheyne reading plan and overcoming the "battle of the threshold"—the spiritual and mental resistance to starting the practice. They conclude with reflections on the authority of Scripture, its role in shaping believers’ lives, and how the Holy Spirit confirms its truth in the hearts of those who read it with faith. The episode ultimately encourages listeners to approach the Bible as a means of encountering Jesus, rather than just a book of knowledge or moral instruction.
You can find resources for the M'Cheyne reading plan on the NewCity Church Center App here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to another episode of the All that Life
Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and I'm here today with Benjamin
Kant, two weeks in a row.
Yeah, let's jump in, let's talkabout scripture, nate, that's
right.
Yeah, we're here to talk aboutthe common rhythm.
Practice of it used to bescripture before screens.
Now it's just scripture.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
That's right.
Yeah, we wanted to make each ofthe common rhythm practices one
word, and particularly a Bibleword, so that the practices are
rooted in scripture.
This one maintains the beforescreens aspect of it in the
definition which is thescripture practice is hearing
God's voice in scripture beforeall others, and that idea of
(00:57):
there's a lot of voices thatbombard us when we wake up in
the morning, some of them insideour own head, some of them are
news apps, some of them aresocial media feeds, some of them
are email inbox right.
All of those voices as soon asyou wake up are kind of vying
for your attention and we'resaying, hey, actually part of
the common rhythm is resistingthe encroachment of technology
(01:19):
into every area of your life,and so let's try to do scripture
before screens and that's theoriginal name for it, and so the
essence of it is still there,even though we simply call it
the scripture practice.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
That's right.
So yeah, so it gives you thespirit of what you're trying to
do and we can even tease out alittle bit more.
I like how you highlight thevoices that you're listening to,
because it's not, strictlyspeaking.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
you cannot look at a screen until you've done the
scripture practice I mean a lotof people use their phone as an
alarm.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It's one thing to grab your phone, turn your alarm
off, become a person, wake upthat kind of thing.
It's a different thing to grabyour phone and the first thing
you do is check Facebook or youcheck your messages or you
immediately are just thrown intothe day when you go about that
way.
And that's what we're trying toavoid with this practice.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
That's right.
Yeah, that's well said.
In fact, many mornings I listento the McShane Plan through a
Bible app called Dwell, and it'sa fantastic Bible app.
I'd recommend it to everybodyand that is one of my favorite
ways.
Maybe I'll grab coffee and thengo for a walk around my
neighborhood while listening tothe Bible app and then I'll come
back and maybe choose one ofthose chapters to really zero in
(02:27):
on and meditate on a verse or achunk or something like that,
or maybe even study it,depending on what I want to do
with that.
But this language of hearingGod's voice in Scripture is
actually it's a really rich wayto consider reading the Bible or
engaging with Scripture.
And I'll give you maybe acouple quotes to kind of back
(02:48):
that up.
Okay, In the 10 Theses of Bernfrom 1528.
Okay, you're going old.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Which everybody's been reading.
I'm sure, yeah, when you thinkof theses, you think of the 10
Theses of Bern.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That's exactly it.
The first thesis, which is abig deal right.
This is the first one.
This is where they start.
They say this the holyChristian church, whose only
head is Christ, is born of theword of God, abides in the same
and does not listen to the voiceof a stranger.
I love that language.
That to be the church is.
(03:20):
We do not listen to the voiceof a stranger.
We and they're getting thatthing from John 10, the sheep,
the shepherd calls, and thesheep hear his voice and they
don't listen to the voice ofanother.
And so where do we hear thevoice of Jesus?
We hear the voice of Jesus inthe scriptures.
That's where he speaks to hispeople authoritatively, that's
where he speaks to his peopleprimarily.
(03:40):
That's.
That's the place where he wantsto begin the conversation with
us.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and that also I feel like that it delineates a
posture that we're expecting inthis practice.
We were talking before werecorded.
There's really a spectrum ofways you could engage scripture
and you could, and sometimesthere is value to reading it
just like any other book,reading like a reader's edition.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Some of the literary ones.
Yeah, where it just looks likeanother book.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It doesn't have all the apparatus around it with the
cross-references, footnotes.
Verse numbers even.
Yeah, sometimes it's just text.
And so you sit down and youread it and you experience
scripture a certain type of waydoing it like that.
Then there's more intensive,like Bible study, where you're
actually like, hey, I don'tunderstand what this word means.
I'm going to go, pull thisdictionary off, or if I'm in a
(04:31):
Bible app, maybe I can doubleclick on it.
It's going to tell me what theword means.
And so now you're kind ofpausing and lingering over each
word, but you're really doing itin like a intellectual.
I'm trying to make deeper senseof it.
And then there's this sort ofmeditative I'm trying to.
I like the way you said it afew minutes ago.
You're trying to like workscripture into you and it's this
(04:52):
posture of listening andreceiving.
That's not that you're notdoing that in study or just
reading to read, but it's alittle more of an intensive,
just stance that you're taking.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, and I think to that pointthe common rhythm practices
really are ways for us tocommune with God.
God has promised his presencein Scripture, and so we want to
receive from God and respond toGod in Scripture.
And one of my favoriteScriptures about scripture is in
(05:26):
John 5.
Jesus says to the teachers, tothe Jewish religious leaders, he
says you search the scripturesbecause you think that in them
you have eternal life.
So pause for a moment.
They were diligent Biblestudents, right, they're
searching the scriptures, whichis a good thing.
In the Bible we think about theBerean church that's commended
for searching the scriptures tomake sure what Paul's saying is
(05:49):
up to par with what the Biblesays.
And so the searching thescriptures is important.
But he says but it's becauseyou think that in them is
eternal life.
But he says it is they thatbear witness about me, in other
words, Genesis through Malachi,I guess you could say.
Or now we would say, genesisthrough Revelation really is a,
it's a witness, it's a testimonyto, which is related to the
(06:12):
word testament.
It's, it's, it is bearingwitness to Jesus.
And then he goes on in thatverse.
He says you search thescriptures because you think
that in them you have eternallife and it is they that bear
witness about me, yet you refuseto come to me that you may have
life.
And so one of the dangers ofengaging the Bible and I think
plenty of people that have beenBible readers in the past and
(06:35):
aren't anymore for variousreasons, or just don't really
experience it as life-giving isbecause they aren't coming to
Jesus through their reading ofthe Bible.
Uh, they're not.
They're not engaging scriptureas as a witness, a testimony to
Jesus, to come to Jesus in yourreading of scripture.
That makes sense, and so Ithink that that's a really big
(06:56):
deal.
Now, I am a Bible nerd.
I love studying scripture.
I love the original languages.
I'm not as good as them at themas I wish I was, but I love
reading commentaries.
I love the original languages.
I'm not as good at them as Iwish I was, but I love reading
commentaries.
I read commentaries on my dayoff for fun, because it's not
work for me.
Like I work through Augustine'scommentaries and the Psalms on
Saturdays.
That's like my Saturday readand because I just I love the
(07:19):
Bible.
I love it so much, and yetthere's a way you can engage
scripture that you actually useit to distance yourself from
Jesus or you use it to keep himat arm's length and he's saying
that's not the right way to goabout it.
Don't refuse to come to me inyour engagement with the Bible.
(07:39):
Actually, let the Bible be themeans by which you come to me,
and I think that that makes allthe difference.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and some of what you're teasing out here,
we're doing it in the context oftalking about scripture as a
practice, but it really couldapply to the other practices as
well.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Because it's.
You can, in a mechanical way,go through the other practices
with the wrong posture andtechnically be doing them but
not engaging with them the waywe're talking about engaging the
scripture practice.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's well said and I think the big this
actually was a significant shift.
That happened for me a fewyears ago and it was Sarah Nixon
, in a staff meeting, mentionedsomething along these lines and
it had so much resonance with methat it's really shifted my
posture with engaging withscripture and that is that I
want to show up to receive and Ithink many of us show up.
(08:30):
It's a spiritual discipline,right, and so we show up like we
show up to go for a run or likewe show up to go to the gym, or
like you show up, and there'seffort and there's
intentionality and there's I'mgoing to, you know, really pour
myself out into this thing andhear me say like they are
spiritual disciplines, likethere is a discipline component
(08:51):
to it.
But when I come to the Bible, Idon't want to come and think
that I have to like give Godsomething like God, I'm giving
you my morning, I'm giving youmy evening, I'm giving you.
You know, it's like I actuallywant to show up to the Bible to
receive from God, to say I'mready to listen to your voice,
like, what do you have to say tome?
How can I receive from you inthis, and that subtle posture
shift in every practice, I think, changes the game for each of
(09:13):
them.
But in Scripture in particular,you're showing up to receive
his voice.
Can you hear the voice of Godin Scripture speaking to you?
What is he saying to you today,this morning, I think, about
Hebrews.
We're preaching through Hebrewsthis spring and Hebrews will
talk about if today, if you hearhis voice, basically listen,
don't harden your heart.
(09:33):
There's a contemporary aspectof God's voice in Scripture that
the Spirit speaks through theScriptures in that way.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah Well, I think we've done a really good job of
sketching out the spirit, so tospeak, of the practice or the
vision that we have for it, theposture that we need to bring to
it.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the logistics, and I'm
even thinking of barriers thatpeople might experience.
(10:01):
So you and I I think it'sprobably fair to say are
mourning people to some extentby grace, not by nature.
By grace, yeah, I was going tosay, I became a morning person
via working at Starbucks incollege.
And when you have to be at workat 5.30 in the morning and then
4 and 4.30, it kind of doessomething to you if you do it
long enough.
I believe that.
But I think not everyone's amorning person and so I think I
(10:26):
can hear people I won't namenames, but I can hear people
objecting to the.
Well, you know, I don't want todo that first thing in the
morning, like I'm not reallyalive until like late morning,
you know, after several cups ofcoffee, like, if we're thinking
about, you know, the receivingelement, I think does help.
Because if we're thinking aboutthe receiving element, I think
does help.
(10:47):
Because if you're thinkingabout, well, if I wanted to give
God my firstfruits, myfirstfruits are not the best,
they're not first thing in themorning, so that's not going to
be the best time for me toengage Scripture, but the
receiving posture does make adifference.
But, what would you say forpeople that, yeah, mornings are
just not my thing?
Why can't I just do thispractice in the evening.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Why can't I?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
do it on my lunch break.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if I wanted to be cheekyI would say oh, that's totally
fine, just do morning andevening.
Yeah.
Because, that's what the Bibleactually says, right, the Psalm
1 man is one here.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Well, the McShane plan You've got two chapters in
the morning, two in the evening.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So I think there's actual precedence to say I
totally get, if you're not yourbest self in the morning, still
show up and hear God's voice,but maybe it's not your best
engagement with the Bible.
Maybe that's actually going tobe in the evening for you,
because the person in Psalm 1 isthe man who meditates on the
law of the Lord day and night,which is a what a merism, I
think, which basically justmeans all day, every day.
(11:44):
It's not actually talking aboutdaytime and nighttime, but it
is saying, yeah, daytime andnighttime and everywhere in
between.
And so I actually think one ofthe things that you know we were
talking about this before oflike historically, how people
have engaged with a scripturepractice you know, literacy
rates were lower than they arenow.
Access to scripture wascertainly lower than it is now.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Luther changed the game really in a lot of ways,
not just that that led to theProtestant Reformation, but also
he was the first one to reallymake extensive use of printing.
That was a new technology andso it kind of fast-tracked
things.
And even the personal Biblestudy is something Luther taught
in his classrooms.
It was he gave his students thetext of scripture and had them
write notes on it, and so wetrace a lot back to there.
(12:29):
But if we go back before thenit's a little murkier as far as
what are the average Christiando.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and so I think that what I know about even
early Jewish formation, though,to get into the rabbinical
schools you had to have hadmemorized the whole of the Torah
, so the first five books of theBible memorized, and then you
most likely had the Psalms andthe Proverbs memorized.
(12:56):
And so I do think the point of,you know, publication, the
publishing of scripture, is afairly modern thing.
That's maybe with Gutenberg inthe late 1400s or something like
that.
You can fact check me on thatyeah.
The printing press right, butmemorization of scripture has
(13:19):
always been a thing that peopleof God have done, and so you
probably would have known theBible better than we do now,
because now we have externalizedit into this paperback thing
that we can carry anywhere withus or a device that we have.
And so I actually do think thatthere is a meditation and an
indwelling, the scripture,dwelling in our hearts richly,
as Colossians 3 says it.
(13:39):
That is true to the people ofGod for thousands of years, for
millennia, but where would theyhave learned it?
They would have learned it in agathered environment, actually,
not individualistically.
So I think that is a shift inour modern moment, which is most
of us think about the scripturepractice as me and Jesus, with
my Bible, a cup of coffee, witha lamp, you know wherever I am
(14:00):
sitting and reading it, maybewith a pen in hand in a journal,
which I am for 100%.
That's a great, that's a goodstart to a good day right there,
or a good capper to a good day.
But actually the way thatscripture was mostly engaged
with was in the memorization andrecitation in community.
So I think there's somethingreally important about the
communal engagement of the Bible, which is why this is called a
(14:22):
common rhythm.
We actually do it together,engagement of the Bible, which
is why this is called a commonrhythm.
We actually do it together.
It's a shared life for a sharedlove in that way.
So to get to the logistics,though, I think that we probably
want to name some of the thingsfor showing up to do this
practice, what it might looklike in people's lives you want
to share, maybe like some of theprinciples of things that
people might have to be aware of, and then maybe we can share
(14:43):
from our own practice, orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean you do have to have a plan.
I think it's probably the firstthing is how are you actually
going to engage scripture?
Is it going to be print?
Is it going to be digital?
Are you going to do what youwere saying earlier and
primarily listen to it?
Are you going to primarily readit?
Or I mean, don't sleep on thisas a tactic, to kind of,
(15:06):
especially if you're slower inthe mornings to listen to it, as
you are looking at the textwhen it's sort of it's being
read to you, but you're alsoengaging visually by reading
along, and it keeps your mindfrom wandering In some ways.
It keeps you focused on the textand not getting sidetracked on
other things, and so somegeneral sense of what's the best
way for you to actually engagescripture, just as the tools
(15:31):
that you're going to use firstand foremost.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, that's well said.
And for us at New City we havea plan.
We use the McShane plan forsome reasons because it has a
rich historical pedigree and itis a.
It's a good plan.
It has a.
It has you in different partsof the Bible at on a daily basis
.
You can do one chapter, youcould do two, three, four
(15:53):
chapters.
You can do it however you wantto.
You're not doing it.
You know RX, as they say in theCrossFit world, only if you
read all four chapters.
In fact, the plan is actuallydivided into two sets of two
chapters.
So either for personal worshipand family worship, or for
morning worship and eveningworship, however you want to
(16:15):
frame that out, or you couldjust say I'm just going to
engage with one of thesechapters.
That's totally fine.
For me, that shifts based onwhat my circle's doing, and so
in our circle we discerntogether.
Hey, right now we wanna readthrough.
We read through Nehemiah in mycircle recently and it was
actually it was in the McShaneplan, but we just really singled
in on that book and read itpretty deeply.
We took a whole week and justspent the whole week in Psalm 37
(16:37):
together, and so we're engagingthe text of Scripture together
in our circle space, which hasbeen a really important piece of
the Scripture practice for me.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, I think it's probably fair to say we really
are trying to promote and doubledown on the McShane plan as a
default.
Mm-hmm, that's right, and itreally is a.
If you don't know where else tostart, start here.
If you have some other thingthat like, oh, I've been doing
this chronological reading planfor the past 10 years or five
years or whatever it's like,this is just what I do every
(17:07):
year, then keep doing that.
If you have a thing alreadythat works for you, that you
really enjoy, do that thing.
If you really don't know whereto start, as you're listening to
this, today in the McShane planwe finished one of the tracks
that's going through the NewTestament epistles.
We finished Romans today, andso if you don't know where to
(17:27):
start, start tomorrow.
1 Corinthians 1.
And just it's a chapter a daytill you get to the end of the
New Testament.
You don't have to put any morethought into it.
If you really wanted to make ita variable plan, then it's a
chapter of the New Testament aday, every day that I do it.
You'll get out of sync with thebroader McShane plan, but
that's at least a manageableapproach of you.
(17:49):
Don't have to put too muchthought into it.
I'm just going to read achapter of the New Testament
each day that I do this practiceBecause, let's be honest, when
you're trying to start a newpractice, it's hard to go from
zero to 60.
Or, in some case, in thisframework framework from zero
days a week to seven days a week, you know, but to go from zero
days a week to two, days a weekto four days a week to you know,
(18:10):
just incrementally adding a day.
That's the way most people easeinto practices, so we don't
want to make it seem like, hey,if you're not doing something,
you need to do it seven days aweek starting tomorrow, or we're
.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
you know, we're going to come looking for you.
That's right, and and you knowlet it be known, if I miss a day
of the McShane plan, I do notcatch up, I start on whatever
day the plan is on.
Okay, I think that's a big deal.
So I cut my losses and that's.
And let me be clear, I missdays, um and so, uh, I I just
keep up with wherever the planis supposed to be for that day
(18:41):
of the year, and that actuallyhelps me, because if I feel like
I'm behind and I'm trying tocatch up and I'm, then it's just
it gets too much in my head andso I'm just going to pick up
where I am and I'm like, oh man,I wonder what happened to
Joseph and his, you know, likehe was in prison last time, now
he's ruling Egypt.
But it's just one of thosemoments where I recognize this
is a.
(19:01):
This is a long game.
I want to have been a Biblereader my whole life, not
somebody who feels bad coming tothe Bible because I miss days
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I will say, though, I'm the exact opposite.
I'm a completer.
I love it, and so if I missseveral days in a row, I still
feel compelled to read all ofthem.
But I will say, when I do that,it does shift into more of just
I'm reading because I want tokeep up with it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I'm not really lingering through here.
You got permission either way.
Whichever way you are, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I will say it's kept me from.
It's helped me finish a lot ofgood books.
It's also forced me to finish alot of bad books because, I'm
just like oh, I started this.
I guess I got to finish it now,that's good, I love this.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I guess I got to finish it.
Now that's good, I love that.
One of the things that you knowis I've only heard one person
talk about this in thisconversation, and it's John
Stott, and he calls this thebattle of the threshold, which
is such a powerful way to put it, and it's.
It's basically.
We all know this.
It's the.
It's the same reason why peoplewho say, if you want to become
a runner, put your shoes out bythe door and lay your running
(20:05):
clothes out so that when youwake up in the morning you don't
have to make any choices.
You just, you just go right.
And this is what John Stott says.
He says we need to win what Ilike to call the battle of the
threshold.
I sometimes imagine a very highstone wall and the living God
is on the other side of the wall, in this walled garden.
He's waiting for me to come tohim.
It does seem a rather childishcontrivance, but it helps me.
(20:26):
There's only one way throughthe wall into the garden a tiny
little door.
Outside the door stands thedevil with a drawn sword, ready
to contest every inch of the wayand to stop me from getting
through into the presence of God.
Now, it is at that point thatwe need to defeat the devil in
the name of Christ, and that isthe battle of the threshold.
I think there are many of uswho give up praying before we
(20:49):
have won the battle of thethreshold.
The best way to win this, in myexperience, is claiming the
promises of scripture.
Okay, the reason why I'm sayingthis is every one of us you
might listen to this podcast andhave a have really good
intentions to wake up tomorrowand to really get back into
reading scripture and engagingit, and I want, I think, what
John Sott's doing here is he'snaming reality for us, which,
(21:12):
according to Max Dupree, is thefirst thing that leaders do is
they define reality.
He's leading us right now.
He's saying hey, in hisexperience and I would say this
is true to my experience as wellthere is a battle of the
threshold to get started toactually and I mean like in the
morning you're ready to go, orin the evening, or on your lunch
break, and there's so manythings vying for your attention
(21:34):
that we think that they'reinnocuous, but they actually
might be demonic.
Let me just say it that, likethe notifications on your phone
might be being utilized by thedevil in order to prevent you
from reaching, like enteringinto the presence of God.
Why wouldn't he stop you fromthat?
Or at least a demon, you know,like the evil one in his cohorts
, right?
And so the reason why I saythat is I love his answer.
(21:57):
It's not.
You know, muscle up, get inthere, go hard.
He says the best way to do is toclaim the promises of scripture
.
So you go, you just tell thetruth about where you are.
Father, I don't really want tocome, I don't want to do
scripture before screens, Idon't want to open up my Bible
right now.
What I want to do is like goback to bed, or what I want to
do is watch another episode orwhatever.
(22:18):
And but help me, I'm weak, andyou say that your grace is your
power is made perfect in myweakness.
2 Corinthians 12, right?
And so you're just telling thetruth about where you are.
God knows.
And I think that winning thebattle of the threshold is.
I'll say it this way I thinkmany of us lose the battle of
the threshold and we don'trealize that we're actually in a
(22:38):
spiritual battle, that there isan enemy who wants more than
anything else, for you to notlisten to the voice of the
beloved, or the voice of yourlover who's speaking over you as
their beloved, and it makes alot of sense to me that the evil
one would work hard to keep youat bay.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, it's kind of the equivalent of I know I draw
everything back to gym analogies, but I feel like it just it
works.
But it's kind of the equivalentof pre-workout.
So, like in the morning whenI'm getting up, I don't have to
summon the motivation to get allthe way to the gym, I don't
have to summon the motivation tostart working out.
(23:16):
I just have to get out of bedand go downstairs and drink my
pre-workout and then give it alittle bit and then I have to go
to the gym like it's.
I can't just be like, you know,I'm gonna go get back in bed
like that's not gonna work andkind of.
What you're describing is likeyou don't have to summon all the
motivation to do the wholemcsain plan first thing.
When you wake up in the morning, you just have to pray what you
(23:37):
were just talking about prayingright, be honest about hey, I'm
tired, I'm groggy, lord.
This is not where I want to beright now, but that is the
equivalent of not pre-workoutbut pre scripture, practice
power, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yes, yeah, that's.
I think that's well said.
There's something to the um,like the momentum that's.
That's probably another way tosay.
It is like there's an inertiaand you need to.
You need to kind of getmomentum in a direction and the
inertia is going to be away fromengaging in a workout in the
morning or engaging in scripture.
So maybe, to close, I've got afew things here.
(24:16):
One is, you know, I've thoughtabout this for a while we are a
unique people.
Christians, that is Now Jewsand Muslims both ascribe
authority to a sacred text, andso do some other religious
beliefs and faiths.
But there's something uniqueabout us, like we really do
(24:37):
believe that the Bible has areally prominent role in our
lives, that it's meant to guideour decisions and our actions,
from how we spend our money towhere we give our attention to
the people we spend time with,the people we, uh, you know,
serve.
Like all those things areshaped by this book.
Um, so you know, it's worthreflecting on for a moment.
(25:01):
What is the Bible?
Sure, why, like?
Why?
Why scripture?
Why this?
Why this book?
This book and I'd love to hearyour thoughts and I'll maybe
frame it like this just to saythe Bible in one sense is it's a
library.
It's a library of 66 textswritten in three languages by
over 40 authors from threecontinents across about 2,000
(25:21):
years, all telling one unifiedstory that leads us to Jesus.
But you've got authors that arefishermen and kings, and
politicians, and priests andshepherds, and farmers, and
murderers and doctors, and itwas like this is a wild book and
, christians, if you're adisciple of Jesus, you give this
book authority, you give it apride of place, of authority in
(25:41):
your life.
What's going on there, nateLike?
Help us think about this.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, I don't know if I can answer this on the spot.
I need to be able to answer iton the spot for comps for sure.
But I think one of the thingsthat ties all of these writings
together because, let's behonest, there's other writings
from around the time of the NewTestament that are not in the
Bible that maybe read verysimilarly we know less about
(26:06):
what's around in the OldTestament time that didn't make
the cut for the Old Testament.
We have a hint of it from andwe won't go into this rabbit
trail of Catholics and EasternOrthodox have more books in
their Old Testament than we doand there's some disputes there
that, if you're really curious,find me in the back at church on
Sunday and I'll explain it toyou.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
There is a sense in which the books that are in
there are because they wererecognized in this communal
space as a text that God spokethrough, and it wasn't just one
person felt really jazzed about.
Hey, whenever I read this oneletter from Paul, I feel like
God's speaking to me andeveryone else is like I don't
know, man.
I don't hear it, he just soundsangry.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's how it would be done today, by the way, with
our expressive individualistculture.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I like the way it makes me feel when I read it.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's right.
But yeah, it was the differentchurches.
We use Paul's letters as anexample.
The churches that he wroteletters to, some of them had
this spirit, authenticated senseto them and were collected
together and then begancirculating among the churches.
And there's other letters thatPaul wrote that they
(27:16):
accomplished a purpose that heintended, but the churches
didn't have that same sense ofthis is inspired, and we don't
mean inspired in the sense oflike makes me feel really good,
or like.
Oh, it's just inspirational.
It's like there was a sense inwhich no, it bears this mark to
it that we're recognizing as acommunity, and so that's.
(27:38):
It is this it's something thatthe spirit does through the
writings as we engage with them.
That has been recognized forthousands of years.
That is happening with theBible.
That's not necessarilyhappening.
When you read the churchfathers, even as you may benefit
and be, you know, you may drawa lot from them, you may be
(28:00):
encouraged from them Edification.
Yeah, all these things, but youmentioned reading Augustine's
commentaries.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
It's like.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
There's no real sense of like.
Well, these seem inspired.
Yes right, you know, and thatcould have been the case, but
he's been around, he's been readby thousands and millions of
people.
And they all agree that he's avery important theologian, but
nobody's saying well, since he'sso good, what if we?
Just what?
Do we just sneak him in there?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
after Revelation you know.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Maybe not everything he wrote.
Just you know some of thebetter stuff.
It's like no, there's just.
There's something clearlydifferent about it.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, and even Augustine would agree with that
right, yeah.
Yeah.
So our confession of faith, theWestminster Confession and then
the Catechisms are.
They're a treasure trove.
So, listener, if you ever wantto know anything about theology
and doctrine, plumb the depthsof our confessions, because
they're great.
In chapter one, which is aboutHoly Scripture, section five, it
(28:56):
says this we may be moved andinduced by the testimony of the
church to a high and reverentesteem of the Holy Scripture.
In other words, we can look tothe church and say, yeah, the
church has always recognizedthese books as having a
significant role in what wewould call the canon.
You know, and you could sayalways, and you could argue if
that really happened in the 300sor when that really?
(29:18):
And I would say no, always.
I think it's pretty clear thatthe earliest church fathers were
ascribing authority to thesebooks.
It wasn't, maybe collectivelyagreed upon by the church until
a little bit later, but therewas an agreement there.
It goes on.
It says the heavenliness of thematter, the efficacy of the
doctrine, the majesty of thestyle, the consent of all the
(29:41):
parts, the scope of the wholewhich is to give all glory to
God, the full discovery it makesof the only way of man's
salvation, the many otherincomparable excellencies and
the entire perfection thereofare arguments whereby it does
abundantly evidence itself to bethe word of God.
Yet, notwithstanding our fullpersuasion and assurance of the
(30:03):
infallible truth and divineauthority, thereof is from the
inward work of the Holy Spiritbearing witness.
I love that because it gives usI understand three different
kind of sources of why we wouldput authority in this book.
The first one it references isthat the church, the church, is
bearing witness to thesescriptures as being
(30:25):
authoritative.
It matters, it's just not theonly, it's not the end.
All be all right, because ourRoman Catholic friends would say
it took the church to give usthe Bible.
So how can the Bible basicallynot, how can the church not have
a certain level of authority onpar with the Bible, something
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
That's probably not entirely true.
It's really more in theCatholic thinking, because I
just had to write a paper onthis this idea of Scripture and
tradition, kind of are twinsources of authority and the
magisterium is this sort ofthird interpretive and it's like
, well, yeah, you have Scriptureand tradition, but how are you
going to make sense of these twothings?
And so they see both as likethese are.
(31:02):
God spoke through Scripture andthrough tradition.
There is something true to that.
And then there is I don't wantto get too deep in the weeds
there, but there is a sense inwhich, yeah, we do value
tradition, but we want to sayscripture is on a different
level.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
That's right.
Well, and we confess in theNicene Creed, I believe in the
Holy Spirit, and then, in thatsame section, I believe in the
communion of saints, right?
So I think that the Holy Spiritfor sure has been speaking and
acting through the church formillennia.
And yet then the second move,it's not just the church, it's
(31:37):
actually the Bible itself, likeit goes on, the heavenlies in
the matter, the efficacy of thedoctrine, the majesty of the
style, the consent of all theparts, in other words, it
actually has an internalauthority.
That is in the text, whichmakes sense, because if it's
going to be your ultimateauthority, then no other source
of authority could validate thatas the ultimate authority,
because then that would be thenew ultimate authority.
(31:58):
So the Bible has to be its ownauthoritative, like
authenticating source, yeah,self-authenticating it yeah,
self-authenticating.
It has to be self-authenticating, otherwise it's no longer your
highest authority.
The church is, then, and we asPresbyterians, as Protestants,
would say absolutely not.
The church is born of the wordof God, the church abides in the
word of God, and the churchdoesn't listen to the voice of a
(32:19):
stranger, and so we believethat we are a creature of the
word, the churches.
We are a creature that is bornand made of the word of God, not
the other way around.
The church does not determinewhat the Bible is.
The Bible determines what thechurch is in that sense.
And then the third thing,though, that it gives here is
the inward work and the bearingwitness, by and with the word in
(32:40):
our hearts, that the HolySpirit does.
There's something reallyremarkable about the existential
nature of this.
Like you know, presbyteriansaren't known for being, you know
, experiential feeler types.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Right To put it mildly.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
To put it mildly.
That's right.
Not all of us, some of us are,but this one's saying that the
inward work of the Holy Spirit,bearing witness by and with the
word in our hearts, is whatreally gives us full persuasion
and assurance of the infallibletruth.
I love that because what it'ssaying is there actually is this
resonance that happens in theheart, in the new heart, not in
(33:15):
a heart of stone, but in a heartof flesh, the new, regenerate
heart, that this is the word ofGod, and if you don't have that,
you might not be regenerate.
I think that's what I wouldtake that to be.
The spirit of God bears witnesswith our spirits here, that this
is that the voice of God isactually in this book, and I
think there's something sopowerful about that.
Yeah, the church can speak toit, yeah, the Bible itself is
(33:37):
self-authenticating and yeah,the Holy Spirit existentially
does something.
And you get the three of thosetogether and it gives you this
pretty validating claim aboutthe authority of this book as we
open it up and pour ourselvesinto it day after day after day,
and put ourselves under it inorder to really understand it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Right, and I think that's a good word to end on,
because that really doesundergird what we were saying at
the beginning of the posture wewant you to bring to the
scripture practice.
It only makes sense ifscripture is what you were just
talking and describing it as yes, that's right, Let me.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Can we end with actually Wilhelmus Abrakel
getting the last word yeah.
Because I think one of ourlisteners was wondering if we
were going to quote WilhelmusAbrakel.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, they've been waiting this whole time.
Sure, you got, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And they would have been disappointed.
So this is what he says Talkingabout the church.
It says she listens to whatJesus has to say to her, turns
herself to his word, deeming itto be the voice of her beloved.
This is particularly true whenthe clarity, power and sweetness
he impresses a text ofscripture upon her heart,
causing her to speak to him inreturn, giving expression to all
(34:49):
the questions generated by herlove, which in turn causes Jesus
to reply to her.
In doing so, the soul will loseand forget herself, and it will
grieve her if this dialogue isbroken off or if her body is too
weak to endure the intensity ofher desires as well as the
kisses and influences of hislove.
That's the kind of stuff youwrite when you actually take the
(35:12):
Song of Songs seriously, whichwe don't do anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
That's a topic for a different day.
That's right, but I love that.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I love this.
It's invitation into communionwith the triune God.
It's invitation into communionwith the triune God and Vihamas
Abrakel got that.
He wasn't some like stuffy, youknow this guy, I mean you can
tell his heart is warmed beforethe scriptures as he's engaging
with this dialogue with her,with the beloved of the soul,
(35:40):
which is Jesus himself.
So I think Vihamas Abrakel getsthe last word, because those
are just two good points.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
That is true, and we will circle back to this topic.
Welcome to another episode of the All that Life
Podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and I'm here today with Benjamin
Kant, two weeks in a row.
Yeah, let's jump in, let's talkabout scripture, nate, that's
right.
Yeah, we're here to talk aboutthe common rhythm.
Practice of it used to bescripture before screens.
Now it's just scripture.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
That's right.
Yeah, we wanted to make each ofthe common rhythm practices one
word, and particularly a Bibleword, so that the practices are
rooted in scripture.
This one maintains the beforescreens aspect of it in the
definition which is thescripture practice is hearing
God's voice in scripture beforeall others, and that idea of
(00:57):
there's a lot of voices thatbombard us when we wake up in
the morning, some of them insideour own head, some of them are
news apps, some of them aresocial media feeds, some of them
are email inbox right.
All of those voices as soon asyou wake up are kind of vying
for your attention and we'resaying, hey, actually part of
the common rhythm is resistingthe encroachment of technology
(01:19):
into every area of your life,and so let's try to do scripture
before screens and that's theoriginal name for it, and so the
essence of it is still there,even though we simply call it
the scripture practice.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
That's right.
So yeah, so it gives you thespirit of what you're trying to
do and we can even tease out alittle bit more.
I like how you highlight thevoices that you're listening to,
because it's not, strictlyspeaking.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
you cannot look at a screen until you've done the
scripture practice I mean a lotof people use their phone as an
alarm.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It's one thing to grab your phone, turn your alarm
off, become a person, wake upthat kind of thing.
It's a different thing to grabyour phone and the first thing
you do is check Facebook or youcheck your messages or you
immediately are just thrown intothe day when you go about that
way.
And that's what we're trying toavoid with this practice.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
That's right.
Yeah, that's well said.
In fact, many mornings I listento the McShane Plan through a
Bible app called Dwell, and it'sa fantastic Bible app.
I'd recommend it to everybodyand that is one of my favorite
ways.
Maybe I'll grab coffee and thengo for a walk around my
neighborhood while listening tothe Bible app and then I'll come
back and maybe choose one ofthose chapters to really zero in
(02:27):
on and meditate on a verse or achunk or something like that,
or maybe even study it,depending on what I want to do
with that.
But this language of hearingGod's voice in Scripture is
actually it's a really rich wayto consider reading the Bible or
engaging with Scripture.
And I'll give you maybe acouple quotes to kind of back
(02:48):
that up.
Okay, In the 10 Theses of Bernfrom 1528.
Okay, you're going old.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Which everybody's been reading.
I'm sure, yeah, when you thinkof theses, you think of the 10
Theses of Bern.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
That's exactly it.
The first thesis, which is abig deal right.
This is the first one.
This is where they start.
They say this the holyChristian church, whose only
head is Christ, is born of theword of God, abides in the same
and does not listen to the voiceof a stranger.
I love that language.
That to be the church is.
(03:20):
We do not listen to the voiceof a stranger.
We and they're getting thatthing from John 10, the sheep,
the shepherd calls, and thesheep hear his voice and they
don't listen to the voice ofanother.
And so where do we hear thevoice of Jesus?
We hear the voice of Jesus inthe scriptures.
That's where he speaks to hispeople authoritatively, that's
where he speaks to his peopleprimarily.
(03:40):
That's.
That's the place where he wantsto begin the conversation with
us.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and that also I feel like that it delineates a
posture that we're expecting inthis practice.
We were talking before werecorded.
There's really a spectrum ofways you could engage scripture
and you could, and sometimesthere is value to reading it
just like any other book,reading like a reader's edition.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Some of the literary ones.
Yeah, where it just looks likeanother book.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It doesn't have all the apparatus around it with the
cross-references, footnotes.
Verse numbers even.
Yeah, sometimes it's just text.
And so you sit down and youread it and you experience
scripture a certain type of waydoing it like that.
Then there's more intensive,like Bible study, where you're
actually like, hey, I don'tunderstand what this word means.
I'm going to go, pull thisdictionary off, or if I'm in a
(04:31):
Bible app, maybe I can doubleclick on it.
It's going to tell me what theword means.
And so now you're kind ofpausing and lingering over each
word, but you're really doing itin like a intellectual.
I'm trying to make deeper senseof it.
And then there's this sort ofmeditative I'm trying to.
I like the way you said it afew minutes ago.
You're trying to like workscripture into you and it's this
(04:52):
posture of listening andreceiving.
That's not that you're notdoing that in study or just
reading to read, but it's alittle more of an intensive,
just stance that you're taking.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, and I think to that pointthe common rhythm practices
really are ways for us tocommune with God.
God has promised his presencein Scripture, and so we want to
receive from God and respond toGod in Scripture.
And one of my favoriteScriptures about scripture is in
(05:26):
John 5.
Jesus says to the teachers, tothe Jewish religious leaders, he
says you search the scripturesbecause you think that in them
you have eternal life.
So pause for a moment.
They were diligent Biblestudents, right, they're
searching the scriptures, whichis a good thing.
In the Bible we think about theBerean church that's commended
for searching the scriptures tomake sure what Paul's saying is
(05:49):
up to par with what the Biblesays.
And so the searching thescriptures is important.
But he says but it's becauseyou think that in them is
eternal life.
But he says it is they thatbear witness about me, in other
words, Genesis through Malachi,I guess you could say.
Or now we would say, genesisthrough Revelation really is a,
it's a witness, it's a testimonyto, which is related to the
(06:12):
word testament.
It's, it's, it is bearingwitness to Jesus.
And then he goes on in thatverse.
He says you search thescriptures because you think
that in them you have eternallife and it is they that bear
witness about me, yet you refuseto come to me that you may have
life.
And so one of the dangers ofengaging the Bible and I think
plenty of people that have beenBible readers in the past and
(06:35):
aren't anymore for variousreasons, or just don't really
experience it as life-giving isbecause they aren't coming to
Jesus through their reading ofthe Bible.
Uh, they're not.
They're not engaging scriptureas as a witness, a testimony to
Jesus, to come to Jesus in yourreading of scripture.
That makes sense, and so Ithink that that's a really big
(06:56):
deal.
Now, I am a Bible nerd.
I love studying scripture.
I love the original languages.
I'm not as good as them at themas I wish I was, but I love
reading commentaries.
I love the original languages.
I'm not as good at them as Iwish I was, but I love reading
commentaries.
I read commentaries on my dayoff for fun, because it's not
work for me.
Like I work through Augustine'scommentaries and the Psalms on
Saturdays.
That's like my Saturday readand because I just I love the
(07:19):
Bible.
I love it so much, and yetthere's a way you can engage
scripture that you actually useit to distance yourself from
Jesus or you use it to keep himat arm's length and he's saying
that's not the right way to goabout it.
Don't refuse to come to me inyour engagement with the Bible.
(07:39):
Actually, let the Bible be themeans by which you come to me,
and I think that that makes allthe difference.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Yeah, and some of what you're teasing out here,
we're doing it in the context oftalking about scripture as a
practice, but it really couldapply to the other practices as
well.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Because it's.
You can, in a mechanical way,go through the other practices
with the wrong posture andtechnically be doing them but
not engaging with them the waywe're talking about engaging the
scripture practice.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, that's well said and I think the big this
actually was a significant shift.
That happened for me a fewyears ago and it was Sarah Nixon
, in a staff meeting, mentionedsomething along these lines and
it had so much resonance with methat it's really shifted my
posture with engaging withscripture and that is that I
want to show up to receive and Ithink many of us show up.
(08:30):
It's a spiritual discipline,right, and so we show up like we
show up to go for a run or likewe show up to go to the gym, or
like you show up, and there'seffort and there's
intentionality and there's I'mgoing to, you know, really pour
myself out into this thing andhear me say like they are
spiritual disciplines, likethere is a discipline component
(08:51):
to it.
But when I come to the Bible, Idon't want to come and think
that I have to like give Godsomething like God, I'm giving
you my morning, I'm giving youmy evening, I'm giving you.
You know, it's like I actuallywant to show up to the Bible to
receive from God, to say I'mready to listen to your voice,
like, what do you have to say tome?
How can I receive from you inthis, and that subtle posture
shift in every practice, I think, changes the game for each of
(09:13):
them.
But in Scripture in particular,you're showing up to receive
his voice.
Can you hear the voice of Godin Scripture speaking to you?
What is he saying to you today,this morning, I think, about
Hebrews.
We're preaching through Hebrewsthis spring and Hebrews will
talk about if today, if you hearhis voice, basically listen,
don't harden your heart.
(09:33):
There's a contemporary aspectof God's voice in Scripture that
the Spirit speaks through theScriptures in that way.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah Well, I think we've done a really good job of
sketching out the spirit, so tospeak, of the practice or the
vision that we have for it, theposture that we need to bring to
it.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the logistics, and I'm
even thinking of barriers thatpeople might experience.
(10:01):
So you and I I think it'sprobably fair to say are
mourning people to some extentby grace, not by nature.
By grace, yeah, I was going tosay, I became a morning person
via working at Starbucks incollege.
And when you have to be at workat 5.30 in the morning and then
4 and 4.30, it kind of doessomething to you if you do it
long enough.
I believe that.
But I think not everyone's amorning person and so I think I
(10:26):
can hear people I won't namenames, but I can hear people
objecting to the.
Well, you know, I don't want todo that first thing in the
morning, like I'm not reallyalive until like late morning,
you know, after several cups ofcoffee, like, if we're thinking
about, you know, the receivingelement, I think does help.
Because if we're thinking aboutthe receiving element, I think
does help.
(10:47):
Because if you're thinkingabout, well, if I wanted to give
God my firstfruits, myfirstfruits are not the best,
they're not first thing in themorning, so that's not going to
be the best time for me toengage Scripture, but the
receiving posture does make adifference.
But, what would you say forpeople that, yeah, mornings are
just not my thing?
Why can't I just do thispractice in the evening.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Why can't I?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
do it on my lunch break.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, if I wanted to be cheekyI would say oh, that's totally
fine, just do morning andevening.
Yeah.
Because, that's what the Bibleactually says, right, the Psalm
1 man is one here.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Well, the McShane plan You've got two chapters in
the morning, two in the evening.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So I think there's actual precedence to say I
totally get, if you're not yourbest self in the morning, still
show up and hear God's voice,but maybe it's not your best
engagement with the Bible.
Maybe that's actually going tobe in the evening for you,
because the person in Psalm 1 isthe man who meditates on the
law of the Lord day and night,which is a what a merism, I
think, which basically justmeans all day, every day.
(11:44):
It's not actually talking aboutdaytime and nighttime, but it
is saying, yeah, daytime andnighttime and everywhere in
between.
And so I actually think one ofthe things that you know we were
talking about this before oflike historically, how people
have engaged with a scripturepractice you know, literacy
rates were lower than they arenow.
Access to scripture wascertainly lower than it is now.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Luther changed the game really in a lot of ways,
not just that that led to theProtestant Reformation, but also
he was the first one to reallymake extensive use of printing.
That was a new technology andso it kind of fast-tracked
things.
And even the personal Biblestudy is something Luther taught
in his classrooms.
It was he gave his students thetext of scripture and had them
write notes on it, and so wetrace a lot back to there.
(12:29):
But if we go back before thenit's a little murkier as far as
what are the average Christiando.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and so I think that what I know about even
early Jewish formation, though,to get into the rabbinical
schools you had to have hadmemorized the whole of the Torah
, so the first five books of theBible memorized, and then you
most likely had the Psalms andthe Proverbs memorized.
(12:56):
And so I do think the point of,you know, publication, the
publishing of scripture, is afairly modern thing.
That's maybe with Gutenberg inthe late 1400s or something like
that.
You can fact check me on thatyeah.
The printing press right, butmemorization of scripture has
(13:19):
always been a thing that peopleof God have done, and so you
probably would have known theBible better than we do now,
because now we have externalizedit into this paperback thing
that we can carry anywhere withus or a device that we have.
And so I actually do think thatthere is a meditation and an
indwelling, the scripture,dwelling in our hearts richly,
as Colossians 3 says it.
(13:39):
That is true to the people ofGod for thousands of years, for
millennia, but where would theyhave learned it?
They would have learned it in agathered environment, actually,
not individualistically.
So I think that is a shift inour modern moment, which is most
of us think about the scripturepractice as me and Jesus, with
my Bible, a cup of coffee, witha lamp, you know wherever I am
(14:00):
sitting and reading it, maybewith a pen in hand in a journal,
which I am for 100%.
That's a great, that's a goodstart to a good day right there,
or a good capper to a good day.
But actually the way thatscripture was mostly engaged
with was in the memorization andrecitation in community.
So I think there's somethingreally important about the
communal engagement of the Bible, which is why this is called a
(14:22):
common rhythm.
We actually do it together,engagement of the Bible, which
is why this is called a commonrhythm.
We actually do it together.
It's a shared life for a sharedlove in that way.
So to get to the logistics,though, I think that we probably
want to name some of the thingsfor showing up to do this
practice, what it might looklike in people's lives you want
to share, maybe like some of theprinciples of things that
people might have to be aware of, and then maybe we can share
(14:43):
from our own practice, orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean you do have to have a plan.
I think it's probably the firstthing is how are you actually
going to engage scripture?
Is it going to be print?
Is it going to be digital?
Are you going to do what youwere saying earlier and
primarily listen to it?
Are you going to primarily readit?
Or I mean, don't sleep on thisas a tactic, to kind of,
(15:06):
especially if you're slower inthe mornings to listen to it, as
you are looking at the textwhen it's sort of it's being
read to you, but you're alsoengaging visually by reading
along, and it keeps your mindfrom wandering In some ways.
It keeps you focused on the textand not getting sidetracked on
other things, and so somegeneral sense of what's the best
way for you to actually engagescripture, just as the tools
(15:31):
that you're going to use firstand foremost.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, that's well said.
And for us at New City we havea plan.
We use the McShane plan forsome reasons because it has a
rich historical pedigree and itis a.
It's a good plan.
It has a.
It has you in different partsof the Bible at on a daily basis
.
You can do one chapter, youcould do two, three, four
(15:53):
chapters.
You can do it however you wantto.
You're not doing it.
You know RX, as they say in theCrossFit world, only if you
read all four chapters.
In fact, the plan is actuallydivided into two sets of two
chapters.
So either for personal worshipand family worship, or for
morning worship and eveningworship, however you want to
(16:15):
frame that out, or you couldjust say I'm just going to
engage with one of thesechapters.
That's totally fine.
For me, that shifts based onwhat my circle's doing, and so
in our circle we discerntogether.
Hey, right now we wanna readthrough.
We read through Nehemiah in mycircle recently and it was
actually it was in the McShaneplan, but we just really singled
in on that book and read itpretty deeply.
We took a whole week and justspent the whole week in Psalm 37
(16:37):
together, and so we're engagingthe text of Scripture together
in our circle space, which hasbeen a really important piece of
the Scripture practice for me.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, I think it's probably fair to say we really
are trying to promote and doubledown on the McShane plan as a
default.
Mm-hmm, that's right, and itreally is a.
If you don't know where else tostart, start here.
If you have some other thingthat like, oh, I've been doing
this chronological reading planfor the past 10 years or five
years or whatever it's like,this is just what I do every
(17:07):
year, then keep doing that.
If you have a thing alreadythat works for you, that you
really enjoy, do that thing.
If you really don't know whereto start, as you're listening to
this, today in the McShane planwe finished one of the tracks
that's going through the NewTestament epistles.
We finished Romans today, andso if you don't know where to
(17:27):
start, start tomorrow.
1 Corinthians 1.
And just it's a chapter a daytill you get to the end of the
New Testament.
You don't have to put any morethought into it.
If you really wanted to make ita variable plan, then it's a
chapter of the New Testament aday, every day that I do it.
You'll get out of sync with thebroader McShane plan, but
that's at least a manageableapproach of you.
(17:49):
Don't have to put too muchthought into it.
I'm just going to read achapter of the New Testament
each day that I do this practiceBecause, let's be honest, when
you're trying to start a newpractice, it's hard to go from
zero to 60.
Or, in some case, in thisframework framework from zero
days a week to seven days a week, you know, but to go from zero
days a week to two, days a weekto four days a week to you know,
(18:10):
just incrementally adding a day.
That's the way most people easeinto practices, so we don't
want to make it seem like, hey,if you're not doing something,
you need to do it seven days aweek starting tomorrow, or we're
.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
you know, we're going to come looking for you.
That's right, and and you knowlet it be known, if I miss a day
of the McShane plan, I do notcatch up, I start on whatever
day the plan is on.
Okay, I think that's a big deal.
So I cut my losses and that's.
And let me be clear, I missdays, um and so, uh, I I just
keep up with wherever the planis supposed to be for that day
(18:41):
of the year, and that actuallyhelps me, because if I feel like
I'm behind and I'm trying tocatch up and I'm, then it's just
it gets too much in my head andso I'm just going to pick up
where I am and I'm like, oh man,I wonder what happened to
Joseph and his, you know, likehe was in prison last time, now
he's ruling Egypt.
But it's just one of thosemoments where I recognize this
is a.
(19:01):
This is a long game.
I want to have been a Biblereader my whole life, not
somebody who feels bad coming tothe Bible because I miss days
and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I will say, though, I'm the exact opposite.
I'm a completer.
I love it, and so if I missseveral days in a row, I still
feel compelled to read all ofthem.
But I will say, when I do that,it does shift into more of just
I'm reading because I want tokeep up with it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I'm not really lingering through here.
You got permission either way.
Whichever way you are, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I will say it's kept me from.
It's helped me finish a lot ofgood books.
It's also forced me to finish alot of bad books because, I'm
just like oh, I started this.
I guess I got to finish it now,that's good, I love this.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I guess I got to finish it.
Now that's good, I love that.
One of the things that you knowis I've only heard one person
talk about this in thisconversation, and it's John
Stott, and he calls this thebattle of the threshold, which
is such a powerful way to put it, and it's.
It's basically.
We all know this.
It's the.
It's the same reason why peoplewho say, if you want to become
a runner, put your shoes out bythe door and lay your running
(20:05):
clothes out so that when youwake up in the morning you don't
have to make any choices.
You just, you just go right.
And this is what John Stott says.
He says we need to win what Ilike to call the battle of the
threshold.
I sometimes imagine a very highstone wall and the living God
is on the other side of the wall, in this walled garden.
He's waiting for me to come tohim.
It does seem a rather childishcontrivance, but it helps me.
(20:26):
There's only one way throughthe wall into the garden a tiny
little door.
Outside the door stands thedevil with a drawn sword, ready
to contest every inch of the wayand to stop me from getting
through into the presence of God.
Now, it is at that point thatwe need to defeat the devil in
the name of Christ, and that isthe battle of the threshold.
I think there are many of uswho give up praying before we
(20:49):
have won the battle of thethreshold.
The best way to win this, in myexperience, is claiming the
promises of scripture.
Okay, the reason why I'm sayingthis is every one of us you
might listen to this podcast andhave a have really good
intentions to wake up tomorrowand to really get back into
reading scripture and engagingit, and I want, I think, what
John Sott's doing here is he'snaming reality for us, which,
(21:12):
according to Max Dupree, is thefirst thing that leaders do is
they define reality.
He's leading us right now.
He's saying hey, in hisexperience and I would say this
is true to my experience as wellthere is a battle of the
threshold to get started toactually and I mean like in the
morning you're ready to go, orin the evening, or on your lunch
break, and there's so manythings vying for your attention
(21:34):
that we think that they'reinnocuous, but they actually
might be demonic.
Let me just say it that, likethe notifications on your phone
might be being utilized by thedevil in order to prevent you
from reaching, like enteringinto the presence of God.
Why wouldn't he stop you fromthat?
Or at least a demon, you know,like the evil one in his cohorts
, right?
And so the reason why I saythat is I love his answer.
(21:57):
It's not.
You know, muscle up, get inthere, go hard.
He says the best way to do is toclaim the promises of scripture
.
So you go, you just tell thetruth about where you are.
Father, I don't really want tocome, I don't want to do
scripture before screens, Idon't want to open up my Bible
right now.
What I want to do is like goback to bed, or what I want to
do is watch another episode orwhatever.
(22:18):
And but help me, I'm weak, andyou say that your grace is your
power is made perfect in myweakness.
2 Corinthians 12, right?
And so you're just telling thetruth about where you are.
God knows.
And I think that winning thebattle of the threshold is.
I'll say it this way I thinkmany of us lose the battle of
the threshold and we don'trealize that we're actually in a
(22:38):
spiritual battle, that there isan enemy who wants more than
anything else, for you to notlisten to the voice of the
beloved, or the voice of yourlover who's speaking over you as
their beloved, and it makes alot of sense to me that the evil
one would work hard to keep youat bay.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, it's kind of the equivalent of I know I draw
everything back to gym analogies, but I feel like it just it
works.
But it's kind of the equivalentof pre-workout.
So, like in the morning whenI'm getting up, I don't have to
summon the motivation to get allthe way to the gym, I don't
have to summon the motivation tostart working out.
(23:16):
I just have to get out of bedand go downstairs and drink my
pre-workout and then give it alittle bit and then I have to go
to the gym like it's.
I can't just be like, you know,I'm gonna go get back in bed
like that's not gonna work andkind of.
What you're describing is likeyou don't have to summon all the
motivation to do the wholemcsain plan first thing.
When you wake up in the morning, you just have to pray what you
(23:37):
were just talking about prayingright, be honest about hey, I'm
tired, I'm groggy, lord.
This is not where I want to beright now, but that is the
equivalent of not pre-workoutbut pre scripture, practice
power, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yes, yeah, that's.
I think that's well said.
There's something to the um,like the momentum that's.
That's probably another way tosay.
It is like there's an inertiaand you need to.
You need to kind of getmomentum in a direction and the
inertia is going to be away fromengaging in a workout in the
morning or engaging in scripture.
So maybe, to close, I've got afew things here.
(24:16):
One is, you know, I've thoughtabout this for a while we are a
unique people.
Christians, that is Now Jewsand Muslims both ascribe
authority to a sacred text, andso do some other religious
beliefs and faiths.
But there's something uniqueabout us, like we really do
(24:37):
believe that the Bible has areally prominent role in our
lives, that it's meant to guideour decisions and our actions,
from how we spend our money towhere we give our attention to
the people we spend time with,the people we, uh, you know,
serve.
Like all those things areshaped by this book.
Um, so you know, it's worthreflecting on for a moment.
(25:01):
What is the Bible?
Sure, why, like?
Why?
Why scripture?
Why this?
Why this book?
This book and I'd love to hearyour thoughts and I'll maybe
frame it like this just to saythe Bible in one sense is it's a
library.
It's a library of 66 textswritten in three languages by
over 40 authors from threecontinents across about 2,000
(25:21):
years, all telling one unifiedstory that leads us to Jesus.
But you've got authors that arefishermen and kings, and
politicians, and priests andshepherds, and farmers, and
murderers and doctors, and itwas like this is a wild book and
, christians, if you're adisciple of Jesus, you give this
book authority, you give it apride of place, of authority in
(25:41):
your life.
What's going on there, nateLike?
Help us think about this.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, I don't know if I can answer this on the spot.
I need to be able to answer iton the spot for comps for sure.
But I think one of the thingsthat ties all of these writings
together because, let's behonest, there's other writings
from around the time of the NewTestament that are not in the
Bible that maybe read verysimilarly we know less about
(26:06):
what's around in the OldTestament time that didn't make
the cut for the Old Testament.
We have a hint of it from andwe won't go into this rabbit
trail of Catholics and EasternOrthodox have more books in
their Old Testament than we doand there's some disputes there
that, if you're really curious,find me in the back at church on
Sunday and I'll explain it toyou.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
There is a sense in which the books that are in
there are because they wererecognized in this communal
space as a text that God spokethrough, and it wasn't just one
person felt really jazzed about.
Hey, whenever I read this oneletter from Paul, I feel like
God's speaking to me andeveryone else is like I don't
know, man.
I don't hear it, he just soundsangry.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's how it would be done today, by the way, with
our expressive individualistculture.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I like the way it makes me feel when I read it.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
That's right.
But yeah, it was the differentchurches.
We use Paul's letters as anexample.
The churches that he wroteletters to, some of them had
this spirit, authenticated senseto them and were collected
together and then begancirculating among the churches.
And there's other letters thatPaul wrote that they
(27:16):
accomplished a purpose that heintended, but the churches
didn't have that same sense ofthis is inspired, and we don't
mean inspired in the sense oflike makes me feel really good,
or like.
Oh, it's just inspirational.
It's like there was a sense inwhich no, it bears this mark to
it that we're recognizing as acommunity, and so that's.
(27:38):
It is this it's something thatthe spirit does through the
writings as we engage with them.
That has been recognized forthousands of years.
That is happening with theBible.
That's not necessarilyhappening.
When you read the churchfathers, even as you may benefit
and be, you know, you may drawa lot from them, you may be
(28:00):
encouraged from them Edification.
Yeah, all these things, but youmentioned reading Augustine's
commentaries.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
It's like.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
There's no real sense of like.
Well, these seem inspired.
Yes right, you know, and thatcould have been the case, but
he's been around, he's been readby thousands and millions of
people.
And they all agree that he's avery important theologian, but
nobody's saying well, since he'sso good, what if we?
Just what?
Do we just sneak him in there?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
after Revelation you know.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Maybe not everything he wrote.
Just you know some of thebetter stuff.
It's like no, there's just.
There's something clearlydifferent about it.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, and even Augustine would agree with that
right, yeah.
Yeah.
So our confession of faith, theWestminster Confession and then
the Catechisms are.
They're a treasure trove.
So, listener, if you ever wantto know anything about theology
and doctrine, plumb the depthsof our confessions, because
they're great.
In chapter one, which is aboutHoly Scripture, section five, it
(28:56):
says this we may be moved andinduced by the testimony of the
church to a high and reverentesteem of the Holy Scripture.
In other words, we can look tothe church and say, yeah, the
church has always recognizedthese books as having a
significant role in what wewould call the canon.
You know, and you could sayalways, and you could argue if
that really happened in the 300sor when that really?
(29:18):
And I would say no, always.
I think it's pretty clear thatthe earliest church fathers were
ascribing authority to thesebooks.
It wasn't, maybe collectivelyagreed upon by the church until
a little bit later, but therewas an agreement there.
It goes on.
It says the heavenliness of thematter, the efficacy of the
doctrine, the majesty of thestyle, the consent of all the
(29:41):
parts, the scope of the wholewhich is to give all glory to
God, the full discovery it makesof the only way of man's
salvation, the many otherincomparable excellencies and
the entire perfection thereofare arguments whereby it does
abundantly evidence itself to bethe word of God.
Yet, notwithstanding our fullpersuasion and assurance of the
(30:03):
infallible truth and divineauthority, thereof is from the
inward work of the Holy Spiritbearing witness.
I love that because it gives usI understand three different
kind of sources of why we wouldput authority in this book.
The first one it references isthat the church, the church, is
bearing witness to thesescriptures as being
(30:25):
authoritative.
It matters, it's just not theonly, it's not the end.
All be all right, because ourRoman Catholic friends would say
it took the church to give usthe Bible.
So how can the Bible basicallynot, how can the church not have
a certain level of authority onpar with the Bible, something
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
That's probably not entirely true.
It's really more in theCatholic thinking, because I
just had to write a paper onthis this idea of Scripture and
tradition, kind of are twinsources of authority and the
magisterium is this sort ofthird interpretive and it's like
, well, yeah, you have Scriptureand tradition, but how are you
going to make sense of these twothings?
And so they see both as likethese are.
(31:02):
God spoke through Scripture andthrough tradition.
There is something true to that.
And then there is I don't wantto get too deep in the weeds
there, but there is a sense inwhich, yeah, we do value
tradition, but we want to sayscripture is on a different
level.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
That's right.
Well, and we confess in theNicene Creed, I believe in the
Holy Spirit, and then, in thatsame section, I believe in the
communion of saints, right?
So I think that the Holy Spiritfor sure has been speaking and
acting through the church formillennia.
And yet then the second move,it's not just the church, it's
(31:37):
actually the Bible itself, likeit goes on, the heavenlies in
the matter, the efficacy of thedoctrine, the majesty of the
style, the consent of all theparts, in other words, it
actually has an internalauthority.
That is in the text, whichmakes sense, because if it's
going to be your ultimateauthority, then no other source
of authority could validate thatas the ultimate authority,
because then that would be thenew ultimate authority.
(31:58):
So the Bible has to be its ownauthoritative, like
authenticating source, yeah,self-authenticating it yeah,
self-authenticating.
It has to be self-authenticating, otherwise it's no longer your
highest authority.
The church is, then, and we asPresbyterians, as Protestants,
would say absolutely not.
The church is born of the wordof God, the church abides in the
word of God, and the churchdoesn't listen to the voice of a
(32:19):
stranger, and so we believethat we are a creature of the
word, the churches.
We are a creature that is bornand made of the word of God, not
the other way around.
The church does not determinewhat the Bible is.
The Bible determines what thechurch is in that sense.
And then the third thing,though, that it gives here is
the inward work and the bearingwitness, by and with the word in
(32:40):
our hearts, that the HolySpirit does.
There's something reallyremarkable about the existential
nature of this.
Like you know, presbyteriansaren't known for being, you know
, experiential feeler types.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Right To put it mildly.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
To put it mildly.
That's right.
Not all of us, some of us are,but this one's saying that the
inward work of the Holy Spirit,bearing witness by and with the
word in our hearts, is whatreally gives us full persuasion
and assurance of the infallibletruth.
I love that because what it'ssaying is there actually is this
resonance that happens in theheart, in the new heart, not in
(33:15):
a heart of stone, but in a heartof flesh, the new, regenerate
heart, that this is the word ofGod, and if you don't have that,
you might not be regenerate.
I think that's what I wouldtake that to be.
The spirit of God bears witnesswith our spirits here, that this
is that the voice of God isactually in this book, and I
think there's something sopowerful about that.
Yeah, the church can speak toit, yeah, the Bible itself is
(33:37):
self-authenticating and yeah,the Holy Spirit existentially
does something.
And you get the three of thosetogether and it gives you this
pretty validating claim aboutthe authority of this book as we
open it up and pour ourselvesinto it day after day after day,
and put ourselves under it inorder to really understand it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Right, and I think that's a good word to end on,
because that really doesundergird what we were saying at
the beginning of the posture wewant you to bring to the
scripture practice.
It only makes sense ifscripture is what you were just
talking and describing it as yes, that's right, Let me.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Can we end with actually Wilhelmus Abrakel
getting the last word yeah.
Because I think one of ourlisteners was wondering if we
were going to quote WilhelmusAbrakel.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, they've been waiting this whole time.
Sure, you got, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And they would have been disappointed.
So this is what he says Talkingabout the church.
It says she listens to whatJesus has to say to her, turns
herself to his word, deeming itto be the voice of her beloved.
This is particularly true whenthe clarity, power and sweetness
he impresses a text ofscripture upon her heart,
causing her to speak to him inreturn, giving expression to all
(34:49):
the questions generated by herlove, which in turn causes Jesus
to reply to her.
In doing so, the soul will loseand forget herself, and it will
grieve her if this dialogue isbroken off or if her body is too
weak to endure the intensity ofher desires as well as the
kisses and influences of hislove.
That's the kind of stuff youwrite when you actually take the
(35:12):
Song of Songs seriously, whichwe don't do anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
That's a topic for a different day.
That's right, but I love that.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
I love this.
It's invitation into communionwith the triune God.
It's invitation into communionwith the triune God and Vihamas
Abrakel got that.
He wasn't some like stuffy, youknow this guy, I mean you can
tell his heart is warmed beforethe scriptures as he's engaging
with this dialogue with her,with the beloved of the soul,
(35:40):
which is Jesus himself.
So I think Vihamas Abrakel getsthe last word, because those
are just two good points.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
That is true, and we will circle back to this topic.
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