April 10, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Nate Claiborne is joined by theologian-in-residence Dr. Michael Allen to explore the enduring value of Christian creeds, particularly the Nicene Creed. Together, they consider why creeds exist, what they accomplish, and how they serve both as summaries of the Christian faith and safeguards against theological error. Dr. Allen outlines three key functions of creeds: summarizing the vast narrative of Scripture, highlighting theological priorities, and drawing clear boundaries around unfaithful interpretations.
Through examples from both the Old and New Testaments, they show that creedal formation is a deeply biblical impulse. From poetic declarations in the Pentateuch to hymnic passages in Paul’s letters, the tradition of summarizing and reciting core truths has long served to orient God's people. The conversation also looks at how creeds function within the life of the church—not as a replacement for Scripture, but as interpretive tools shaped by the wisdom of the global and historical church. With 2025 marking the 1700th anniversary of the Nicene Creed, Nate and Mike also share why now is a particularly significant moment to reflect on its meaning and relevance in our worship, witness, and discipleship.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and today I'm here with Michael
Allen.
How are we doing, mike Great tobe with you, it's a good day.
It is a good day.
It's been a while since we'vehad a conversation about things.
Our last two episodes we talkedabout Hebrews, just in a
general sense, talked aboutreading it in light of the Old
Testament.
(00:34):
I don't know if we told peoplewe were doing these episodes,
but they're going to be excitedto know.
We've got two more episodesthis week, and next we're going
to be talking about the NiceneCreed, really specifically about
the second article, but that'sgoing to be what we get to next
week.
I'm just saying that here tobuild a sense of anticipation.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Deep and profound anticipation.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I know right who would have thought we would drop
an episode about the importanceof Jesus during Holy Week.
What are the odds?
But before we get to that,though, we're just going to do a
big picture sketch of why wehave creeds, what they're for,
why they're important, and thenkind of zoom in a little bit
closer to Nicaea in particular.
But the big picture questionwhy do we have creeds?
(01:18):
Why are they important?
Mike?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah Well, I mean, the first thing to say is what a
creed is and what a confessionis, and those words are
sometimes used synonymously,sometimes they're used in
slightly specific,differentiated form.
Creeds are statements of faith,things that Christians believe,
things that summarize andsometimes say in a specific form
(01:45):
so as to highlight somethingthat really matters and
sometimes also to challengesomething that really threatens.
And I think it's important tothink about really three facets.
I mean one is the need for asummary, the other is the need
to highlight certain things thatgreatly matter, and the third
(02:08):
would be to say some things thatreally do threaten, to state
why they are excluded.
All three of those elements arereally important and evident in
this and other creeds, andmaybe the first would be the
summary.
I mean, the Bible is a big thing, which is both a remarkable
(02:28):
gift, but it also brings with ita challenge.
The Bible pick an Englishtranslation, an edition, and I
don't know are we talking aboutroughly 1400 pages or
thereabouts, something ofmassive scope.
So to be able to tell peopleChristianity involves belief in
(02:52):
really opens up a whole range ofthings that might be said to
end that sentence, to completethat prepositional phrase, in
one sense, you could read almostany verse of the Bible.
That's something Christiansbelieve, but that's not terribly
helpful in terms of what mostpeople are after.
(03:12):
They want to know what's themain point, what are the key
elements?
How does this hold together?
How does this speak to the wayI view myself, the world in
light of the God who this bookspeaks about?
And so the need for some sortof summary is something that we
(03:34):
see making sense practicallybecause of the scale of the book
.
It's also something amazingthat we see in the Bible itself
Already there are summaries thatappear in both the Old and New
Testaments of what's happenedalready.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Right, which that even kind of answers a question
I think some people might haveis well, why do we need creeds
if we have the Bible?
And you've kind of hit on thisalready that well, the Bible is
a big book and so as soon as youstart to try to summarize what
it's about, what it teaches,what we should believe, you've
created a creed of some sort.
And you've just got a precedentfor it in the Old Testament
(04:09):
rehearsal of the story of Israelat various points.
And then you've got some shortlittle.
Sometimes they're set off aspoetry in Paul's letters, these
little early creedal statementsthat seem to have already been
circulating.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
Even just looking at thePentateuch In Exodus, you know
you're in the second book of theBible, you're experiencing this
first great work of redemptionwhere God's delivering Israel
and yet by the end of the storywe've got sort of a first moment
where there's a summative,creedal statement.
(04:45):
God proclaims his name as a God.
Who's the Lord?
Merciful, gracious, slow toanger, abounding in steadfast
love.
That's going to be repeatedthroughout the Bible later, in
the Psalms for instance.
It's not new, it's just newlystated and summarized.
What's named there in Exodus 34, 6, and 7 are the attributes
(05:06):
that have been on display in thestory of the Exodus and in
God's favor to the Israelites.
But it's important to be ableto remember it rightly, to
perceive it accurately and to beable to do so in a way that you
can invoke again and again soyou don't forget it.
How often do we see in thePentateuch also the danger of
(05:28):
forgetting, even forgetting God?
And so you go on Numbers,leviticus, etc.
You get to Deuteronomy and bythe end of Deuteronomy we need
another summary.
So it's not surprising, asDeuteronomy wraps up, you've got
this creedal statement.
My father was a wanderingAramean and here it's being said
(05:49):
by a generation who are later,but they're telling of what God
did for their predecessors.
They're able to summarize andthey're able to claim the story
of the Exodus as somethingthat's their own.
In very brief fashion, it's awhole lot shorter than reading
(06:09):
all of Exodus, leviticus,numbers and Deuteronomy Right,
but it catches the big moments,it conveys the most essential
elements and it's something,most importantly, they can keep
reciting so they remember andthey don't forget.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, and you've got that example in the Pentateuch
and then if we move even further, we won't trace all the
possibilities, but you haveseveral Psalms that capture the
story of Israel and recount someof the mighty works of God.
You've got an extended prayerin Nehemiah that does something
similar.
I think even we just saySolomon's prayer in the
(06:47):
dedication of the temple is sortof retreading some of this
ground so that the peopleremember the story.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But it's not quite a creed, but it's doing the same
kind of things a creed, orpossibly sung creeds, what we
would call a hymn, in texts likeColossians 1, 15 and following
and Philippians 2.
And in both of those you've gotsomething that's clearly
crafted thoughtfully, artfully,not just so that it says true
(07:21):
things in brief fashion, but sothat it says it in a way that's
memorable, that's usable,because the goal of this is
communal use for communalmemory's sake.
And you can think aboutparallels in different ways.
If you think about a big book,oftentimes we get lost in it.
(07:45):
I'm reading through Tolstoy'sWar and Peace right now, very
slowly, and I'm a reader, a realglutton for punishment, and
it's still.
It's big scale and Russiannames and references that are
not exactly my forte.
And so having looked at somesummary, that helps orient me,
(08:09):
enables me to experience what'son this or that page a little
more freely and alertly, and soI found that invaluable in
reading a big book that'sroughly the size of a Bible,
that I can make sense of it.
I don't read the summary, so Idon't need to read Tolstoy.
That would rob me of the depth,the beauty, the profundity, the
(08:34):
experience.
That would be tragic.
In the same way, reading thecreed, learning that and saying,
well, I guess I don't need toread the Bible.
That would be to fail to misswhere God promises to be.
(08:55):
But as a summary, as a guide tohelp you know what to look for,
it very much serves like abrilliant set of reader's notes
to guide you as you engage theBible.
And that leads to that secondelement Creeds really do sort of
point to priorities, thingsthat really matter.
And as we look at the creeds ofthe universal church, what we
sometimes call the ecumenicalcreeds, because they're early
(09:15):
Christian creeds, that alltraditions look to, the Apostles
Creed, the Nicene Creedespecially, they talk about the
same basic things god, god,creating god, saving god,
eventually, uh, bringing aboutthe end.
Um, and what we, what we see is, you know, they're trying to
(09:39):
alert you.
There are so many differentstories, so many trees to focus
on.
This helps you catch the forestand to identify what's most
important.
And you know, those of us whohave been Christians for a while
, we probably are prone toforgetting how hard that can be
(10:01):
for folks who are new toChristianity, new to the Bible.
For folks who are new toChristianity, new to the Bible.
They might start reading inLamentations, or they might
start reading in 1 Thessalonians.
Two very different experiences,very different experiences, and
neither is going to benecessarily so straightforward
(10:22):
to tell you why people arefollowing a religion defined by
this at first glance.
On the other hand, most peopletend to direct people to Mark or
John or Romans or Genesis, andthere are reasons for that
because we understand theimportance of having a sensible,
(10:42):
clear sort of path tounderstanding the main elements,
and creeds are one crucial helpin that regard.
They put the main prioritiesbefore us.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, so in that sense it's you kind of.
I didn't ask the question thisway, but you really answered the
question.
How do we think about creeds ifwe are Protestants that affirm
sola scriptura and this ideathat scripture is?
It's not solo scriptura, it'snot the only authoritative
source, but it is the primary orthe principal authoritative
(11:16):
source, and the creeds are aninterpretive guide to how to
understand that source.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, it's the only final authority.
Sure, but one thing the Bibleitself commends is that we pass
on biblical tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So Paul writes to Timothy and even uses that word.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, he commends the idea of guarding the good
deposit that's been given to himand following the pattern of
sound teaching or doctrine.
And those aren't references tothe text of Scripture but to the
way in which one understandsthem to cohere and communicate
the truth of God in Christ.
And so there has already beenthis tradition of interpretation
(11:59):
.
Jesus participates in that.
It's not enough just to say Iknow the law is in the Torah.
Jesus repeatedly gets thequestion what's the greatest
commandment?
Well, there's over 600, sothat's a standard rabbinic
question.
How do you sum it up?
Sort of what's the big picture,what matters most?
And every rabbi is going tohave their spin.
(12:20):
And Jesus offers us the doublelove command as this way of
summing up the law.
And by the time we see not justJesus but then his apostles, we
see that they're summing upthis idea that we're given not
only the writings of theprophets and those apostles but
(12:42):
also a tradition ofunderstanding how they fit
together.
Tradition's, you know, notdivine, it's a blessing.
It's a blessing, it's a gift.
But it can go bad and it canneed to be corrected by
Scripture.
But Scripture itself tells ushow important it is and for most
(13:03):
of us, I think we observe that.
We observe that.
You know, when we come to studythe Bible, in big and small ways
, through tools and throughpeople, we are traditioned into
understanding it.
You've got notes at the top of astudy Bible page, or you've got
a friend leading you at acoffee shop as you read through
(13:25):
Mark, or you're listening to apastor preach on a passage, or
you've read the Creed andrecited it and you keep that in
mind as you meditate onScripture Lots of different ways
tradition can help you Intheory.
Sure, there's always the dangerthat you might somehow not hear
(13:48):
something that would challengeyou, but that danger is there
simply if you read the Bible onyour own too.
Right, right, that's just tosay we're not always attentive
and that's always a danger weneed to be mindful of and
prayerful about.
And we're far better able toaddress that potential problem
(14:09):
if it's not merely us doing so,but us doing so with all the
blessings and resources andwisdom of the church through the
ages, not just our local,parochial, narrow setting, great
though that is, but oursamongst the whole community of
saints.
So the Bible itself says themore biblical you want to be,
(14:30):
the more traditional you've gotto also train.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And not just because you dress or sing or look like
them, but you learn from the waythey've heard God, and you
learn not to do what they did inevery way but, as Hebrews puts
it, to run the race set beforeyou, having learned from the
great collection of witnesses.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So we could even say, given sort of what you were
saying there and this will leadus back into the third point
that you made is it's not justan interpretive guide.
In some ways it's interpretiveguardrails, because as you're
reading scripture, engaging withit, you're going to be
interpreting it one way or theother and something needs to not
just guide you but to keep youfrom going off the road.
Yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I mean road is a helpful image.
I've been the last month or twodeep in prayer.
My oldest just got a learner'spermit.
He's a great driver, but itdoes mean suddenly.
I'm in the passenger seat oftenand imagine if I took the
approach that some suggest weought to take with the Bible
(15:33):
Just listen to the Bible, juststudy it yourself, don't listen
to the wisdom of others who'vegone before you.
That would be equivalent to mehanding the keys to my teenager
and saying go for it and learnas you go, and then sitting mute
, never offering wisdom,guidance or, as you put it,
warning.
I find that, yes, I don't wantto remove all agency and
(15:55):
responsibility from the youngdriver.
He's got to learn to act andthen to react and to learn from
it, but it would be tragic if Ididn't offer warnings.
Hey, by the way, people who dothis tend to wind up in an
accident, or people who don'tpay attention to that tend to
get sideswiped, and so it's aloving act for me to pass on
(16:20):
wisdom that I and others beforeme, oftentimes at great expense,
have learned, and we know thatin other areas of life, like
training someone up to drive acar, something that has real
effect, and I think we need tobe mindful.
Reading our Bibles and seekingto know God has real effect on
(16:42):
our souls for eternity and, byextension, the way in which we
might lead or mislead others.
And so creeds really do say,hey, we've learned some lessons
of, at times, not small errors,but grave errors that have
really undone individual livesand communities of faith.
(17:04):
And so some of those that aremost grave and consequent
they're going to be named here,not because we don't want you to
read the Bible, we don't wantyou to follow Jesus and learn as
you go, but because we wouldhate for you to do that and have
to reinvent the wheel and learnevery lesson on your own.
That would be brutally painful,and so the creed represents the
(17:28):
best of gathered wisdom up tothat point.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, so it makes me think too of.
It's not that you just startoff reading on your own and
trying to make sense of thingsyourself, or even just asking a
friend.
It's the succession ofinterpretation that you can
trace back.
So you use your example ofdriving.
It's like, well, somebodytaught you how to drive, who
taught them how to drive?
(17:52):
Who taught them how to drive?
And it's putting you in this,this continuity with the
earliest drivers.
For, however, you want to thinkof it like that, and so the
particular creed that we'regoing to talk about in more
detail in the next episode.
It goes far back into churchhistory 1700 years to be exact
and is something that's at thefountainhead.
(18:15):
Can I say fountainhead?
I guess I can say fountainhead,you did in fact, I did say it
in fact of pretty much allChristian traditions.
We mentioned this a little bitbefore recording, but in this
one of my PhD seminars we'restudying all the different
theological traditions and to aone, they all affirm the Nicene
Creed.
They vary widely in some of theinterpretive moves they might
(18:37):
make in light of it, but notthat much concerning the creed
itself.
It's usually in things beyondthe creed that there's
disagreements, and that's whythere's different traditions,
but they all trace themselvesback to this really early source
.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, so we could land the plane here talking
about.
So where did this one come fromas regards to these three goals
, and why are we payingattention to it, especially in
this season?
As you mentioned, we're payingspecial attention to it for a
couple reasons.
First, it's been the creed mostemployed by Christians across
(19:13):
traditions, as you said, and uptill now, it's not been a
mainstay at all in our worshipand in our formative practice at
New City, and so it's a goodresource that we've
underutilized.
Secondly, though, it's the1700th anniversary, and so we're
not alone in paying attentionto it.
(19:33):
A number of Christiancommunities around the globe, in
various traditions, are, in ahost of ways, trying to glean
from, understand and put to workthis creed and what it might do
to help them in their witness,in their worship, and so that's
(19:55):
the reason we've really devotedourselves to it in 2025.
1,700 years ago, christians are,in many respects, doing what we
do.
They're trying to evangelize,they're trying to grow in
communion with God, they'retrying to pass on the faith to
the next generation, they'retrying to love their neighbor
(20:19):
and, like today, from time totime there are real problems
that arise, errors that canemerge, and sometimes they do
seem to be grave or moresignificant, not just a local
problem, but something that'sreally a potential juggernaut.
And one of those issues emergedearly in the 4th century, so
(20:43):
just over 1,700 years ago, andin North Africa, which was a
massive hub of Christianity atthat time and especially the
center of a lot of Christianintellectual or theological
conversations.
So many of our best earlytheologians were there in North
Africa and in particular inAlexandria.
(21:05):
We know of the famous librarythere that's renowned and lost,
but, don't worry, nick Cagefound it in the National
Treasure movie.
There's also a rich Christiancommunity there for several
centuries, with, at most points,the greatest teachers being
Alexandrian Christians.
Well, not surprisingly, aproblem that might emerge in
(21:26):
Alexandria could quickly becomea problem that's going to
influence people around theMediterranean and beyond.
And in that time people startedto hear of the teaching and the
ministry of a character namedArius of Alexandria regarding
the Son, the incarnate Son ofGod, jesus.
(21:48):
And Arius talks about Jesus onthe one hand in ways that sound
pretty typical, reveres him,honors him, invokes him in
worship services, but at variouspoints it's plain he says
things that seem very jarring.
And others there including abishop who, I kid you not, is
(22:08):
named Alexander of Alexandriaand then very quickly and most
famously, a theologian namedAthanasius of Alexandria.
They're going to be pressingthe case, trying to make clear
what Arius teaches, why itreally challenges not just
(22:34):
intellectual ideas but the lifeof communing with God in Christ,
the calling to worship Christ,to pray in Christ's name, to
believe Christ is our one truemediator between humanity and
God.
All these things they're goingto say Arius's ideas have taken
seriously.
They really undercut all thatand we can get into the
specifics in a following episode.
But one key element inaddressing that is the convening
(22:57):
of a church council, whichthat's not new.
We see that in Acts when thechurch needs to figure out.
What do we do with all theseGentiles who seem to possess the
Holy Spirit and actually trustJesus?
And we've had Gentiles beforewho've turned to the God of
Israel, but it's always been therare person here or there, like
(23:18):
Rahab of old.
But now it's overwhelming.
And so the Council of Jerusalemis reported for us in Acts 14
and 15.
Well, here we've got a council,obviously long after the time
of the New Testament itself, buta similar idea, convening
people in Nicaea in 325.
(23:40):
About a half century laterthere'll be a following council
in Constantinople in 381, wherethe creed as we say it today is
elaborated and finished.
But really beginning in thatfirst council in Nicaea in 325,
the goal is summarize the wordof God, highlight the priorities
(24:02):
, warn against the grave threats, and at that point the main
grave threat are these ideasbeing conveyed by Arius and by
the Aryans.
We got to clarify Aryan heredoes not mean white supremacist.
It's not Aryan with a Y, it'sAryan with an I.
They have enough problems.
(24:23):
Don't need to be confused withthe racists.
Racists, but the creed'smeaning to target that, and
evermore it's been used as atool to help us catch a main
summary of the Bible highlightthings that matter much, exclude
key things that are gravethreats.
(24:44):
It's not the only creed.
It's played a unique role,though it has.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
And to bring us even more that's a great summary
there at the end, mike and tobring us even more full circle
Arius is not claiming he's gotspecial revelation outside the
Bible or that he thinks whathe's doing is faithfully
interpreting Scripture.
And so a creed is then producedto rule out this particular
(25:09):
interpretation and rule in adifferent interpretation.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, arius, he projects as a conservative who
thinks he's holding on to thisidea of God being one, and he's
quoting Bible verses.
And so the key is is he reallybeing faithful not just to a
phrase in the Bible or to asingle verse in all of Scripture
(25:33):
, is he actually being faithfulto the whole scope and to the
unified teaching of Scripture?
So I'm so glad you pointed thatout.
The creed is necessary not toget away from the Bible, but to
help communicate what the Bibleas a whole means to communicate.
And that's challenging.
That's why it took many figures,deliberating prayerfully.
(25:56):
That's why we believe.
Ultimately it requires theguidance of the Spirit and the
provision of Jesus as theteacher and Lord of the church.
Not guarantee that the churchnever makes mistakes, but
promising, as he does in Matthew16 and elsewhere, that he'll
build the church.
You know, it will extend thekingdom.
The gates of hell will notprevail against it.
(26:17):
And so we do believe that,while the church is not
infallible, we do believe thatJesus has instructed it, the
Spirit has illumined it, and oneresult of that is we've got
great wisdom in a text like thisNicene Creed.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
That's right.
Well, mike, it's been apleasure talking with you about
the importance of creeds, how wethink about them in relation to
Scripture, and just getting ourtoes wet a little bit on.
What is the Nicene Creed, whyis it important?
And I will look forward to nexttime when we dig into that
second article of it in a littlemore detail and talk about the
significance of the teachings inthat creed Sounds great.
(26:56):
See you then.
Welcome to another episode of the All of Life
podcast.
I'm your host, nate Claiborne,and today I'm here with Michael
Allen.
How are we doing, mike Great tobe with you, it's a good day.
It is a good day.
It's been a while since we'vehad a conversation about things.
Our last two episodes we talkedabout Hebrews, just in a
general sense, talked aboutreading it in light of the Old
Testament.
(00:34):
I don't know if we told peoplewe were doing these episodes,
but they're going to be excitedto know.
We've got two more episodesthis week, and next we're going
to be talking about the NiceneCreed, really specifically about
the second article, but that'sgoing to be what we get to next
week.
I'm just saying that here tobuild a sense of anticipation.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Deep and profound anticipation.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I know right who would have thought we would drop
an episode about the importanceof Jesus during Holy Week.
What are the odds?
But before we get to that,though, we're just going to do a
big picture sketch of why wehave creeds, what they're for,
why they're important, and thenkind of zoom in a little bit
closer to Nicaea in particular.
But the big picture questionwhy do we have creeds?
(01:18):
Why are they important?
Mike?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah Well, I mean, the first thing to say is what a
creed is and what a confessionis, and those words are
sometimes used synonymously,sometimes they're used in
slightly specific,differentiated form.
Creeds are statements of faith,things that Christians believe,
things that summarize andsometimes say in a specific form
(01:45):
so as to highlight somethingthat really matters and
sometimes also to challengesomething that really threatens.
And I think it's important tothink about really three facets.
I mean one is the need for asummary, the other is the need
to highlight certain things thatgreatly matter, and the third
(02:08):
would be to say some things thatreally do threaten, to state
why they are excluded.
All three of those elements arereally important and evident in
this and other creeds, andmaybe the first would be the
summary.
I mean, the Bible is a big thing, which is both a remarkable
(02:28):
gift, but it also brings with ita challenge.
The Bible pick an Englishtranslation, an edition, and I
don't know are we talking aboutroughly 1400 pages or
thereabouts, something ofmassive scope.
So to be able to tell peopleChristianity involves belief in
(02:52):
really opens up a whole range ofthings that might be said to
end that sentence, to completethat prepositional phrase, in
one sense, you could read almostany verse of the Bible.
That's something Christiansbelieve, but that's not terribly
helpful in terms of what mostpeople are after.
(03:12):
They want to know what's themain point, what are the key
elements?
How does this hold together?
How does this speak to the wayI view myself, the world in
light of the God who this bookspeaks about?
And so the need for some sortof summary is something that we
(03:34):
see making sense practicallybecause of the scale of the book
.
It's also something amazingthat we see in the Bible itself
Already there are summaries thatappear in both the Old and New
Testaments of what's happenedalready.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Right, which that even kind of answers a question
I think some people might haveis well, why do we need creeds
if we have the Bible?
And you've kind of hit on thisalready that well, the Bible is
a big book and so as soon as youstart to try to summarize what
it's about, what it teaches,what we should believe, you've
created a creed of some sort.
And you've just got a precedentfor it in the Old Testament
(04:09):
rehearsal of the story of Israelat various points.
And then you've got some shortlittle.
Sometimes they're set off aspoetry in Paul's letters, these
little early creedal statementsthat seem to have already been
circulating.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
Even just looking at thePentateuch In Exodus, you know
you're in the second book of theBible, you're experiencing this
first great work of redemptionwhere God's delivering Israel
and yet by the end of the storywe've got sort of a first moment
where there's a summative,creedal statement.
(04:45):
God proclaims his name as a God.
Who's the Lord?
Merciful, gracious, slow toanger, abounding in steadfast
love.
That's going to be repeatedthroughout the Bible later, in
the Psalms for instance.
It's not new, it's just newlystated and summarized.
What's named there in Exodus 34, 6, and 7 are the attributes
(05:06):
that have been on display in thestory of the Exodus and in
God's favor to the Israelites.
But it's important to be ableto remember it rightly, to
perceive it accurately and to beable to do so in a way that you
can invoke again and again soyou don't forget it.
How often do we see in thePentateuch also the danger of
(05:28):
forgetting, even forgetting God?
And so you go on Numbers,leviticus, etc.
You get to Deuteronomy and bythe end of Deuteronomy we need
another summary.
So it's not surprising, asDeuteronomy wraps up, you've got
this creedal statement.
My father was a wanderingAramean and here it's being said
(05:49):
by a generation who are later,but they're telling of what God
did for their predecessors.
They're able to summarize andthey're able to claim the story
of the Exodus as somethingthat's their own.
In very brief fashion, it's awhole lot shorter than reading
(06:09):
all of Exodus, leviticus,numbers and Deuteronomy Right,
but it catches the big moments,it conveys the most essential
elements and it's something,most importantly, they can keep
reciting so they remember andthey don't forget.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, and you've got that example in the Pentateuch
and then if we move even further, we won't trace all the
possibilities, but you haveseveral Psalms that capture the
story of Israel and recount someof the mighty works of God.
You've got an extended prayerin Nehemiah that does something
similar.
I think even we just saySolomon's prayer in the
(06:47):
dedication of the temple is sortof retreading some of this
ground so that the peopleremember the story.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But it's not quite a creed, but it's doing the same
kind of things a creed, orpossibly sung creeds, what we
would call a hymn, in texts likeColossians 1, 15 and following
and Philippians 2.
And in both of those you've gotsomething that's clearly
crafted thoughtfully, artfully,not just so that it says true
(07:21):
things in brief fashion, but sothat it says it in a way that's
memorable, that's usable,because the goal of this is
communal use for communalmemory's sake.
And you can think aboutparallels in different ways.
If you think about a big book,oftentimes we get lost in it.
(07:45):
I'm reading through Tolstoy'sWar and Peace right now, very
slowly, and I'm a reader, a realglutton for punishment, and
it's still.
It's big scale and Russiannames and references that are
not exactly my forte.
And so having looked at somesummary, that helps orient me,
(08:09):
enables me to experience what'son this or that page a little
more freely and alertly, and soI found that invaluable in
reading a big book that'sroughly the size of a Bible,
that I can make sense of it.
I don't read the summary, so Idon't need to read Tolstoy.
That would rob me of the depth,the beauty, the profundity, the
(08:34):
experience.
That would be tragic.
In the same way, reading thecreed, learning that and saying,
well, I guess I don't need toread the Bible.
That would be to fail to misswhere God promises to be.
(08:55):
But as a summary, as a guide tohelp you know what to look for,
it very much serves like abrilliant set of reader's notes
to guide you as you engage theBible.
And that leads to that secondelement Creeds really do sort of
point to priorities, thingsthat really matter.
And as we look at the creeds ofthe universal church, what we
sometimes call the ecumenicalcreeds, because they're early
(09:15):
Christian creeds, that alltraditions look to, the Apostles
Creed, the Nicene Creedespecially, they talk about the
same basic things god, god,creating god, saving god,
eventually, uh, bringing aboutthe end.
Um, and what we, what we see is, you know, they're trying to
(09:39):
alert you.
There are so many differentstories, so many trees to focus
on.
This helps you catch the forestand to identify what's most
important.
And you know, those of us whohave been Christians for a while
, we probably are prone toforgetting how hard that can be
(10:01):
for folks who are new toChristianity, new to the Bible.
For folks who are new toChristianity, new to the Bible.
They might start reading inLamentations, or they might
start reading in 1 Thessalonians.
Two very different experiences,very different experiences, and
neither is going to benecessarily so straightforward
(10:22):
to tell you why people arefollowing a religion defined by
this at first glance.
On the other hand, most peopletend to direct people to Mark or
John or Romans or Genesis, andthere are reasons for that
because we understand theimportance of having a sensible,
(10:42):
clear sort of path tounderstanding the main elements,
and creeds are one crucial helpin that regard.
They put the main prioritiesbefore us.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, so in that sense it's you kind of.
I didn't ask the question thisway, but you really answered the
question.
How do we think about creeds ifwe are Protestants that affirm
sola scriptura and this ideathat scripture is?
It's not solo scriptura, it'snot the only authoritative
source, but it is the primary orthe principal authoritative
(11:16):
source, and the creeds are aninterpretive guide to how to
understand that source.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, it's the only final authority.
Sure, but one thing the Bibleitself commends is that we pass
on biblical tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So Paul writes to Timothy and even uses that word.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yes, he commends the idea of guarding the good
deposit that's been given to himand following the pattern of
sound teaching or doctrine.
And those aren't references tothe text of Scripture but to the
way in which one understandsthem to cohere and communicate
the truth of God in Christ.
And so there has already beenthis tradition of interpretation
(11:59):
.
Jesus participates in that.
It's not enough just to say Iknow the law is in the Torah.
Jesus repeatedly gets thequestion what's the greatest
commandment?
Well, there's over 600, sothat's a standard rabbinic
question.
How do you sum it up?
Sort of what's the big picture,what matters most?
And every rabbi is going tohave their spin.
(12:20):
And Jesus offers us the doublelove command as this way of
summing up the law.
And by the time we see not justJesus but then his apostles, we
see that they're summing upthis idea that we're given not
only the writings of theprophets and those apostles but
(12:42):
also a tradition ofunderstanding how they fit
together.
Tradition's, you know, notdivine, it's a blessing.
It's a blessing, it's a gift.
But it can go bad and it canneed to be corrected by
Scripture.
But Scripture itself tells ushow important it is and for most
(13:03):
of us, I think we observe that.
We observe that.
You know, when we come to studythe Bible, in big and small ways
, through tools and throughpeople, we are traditioned into
understanding it.
You've got notes at the top of astudy Bible page, or you've got
a friend leading you at acoffee shop as you read through
(13:25):
Mark, or you're listening to apastor preach on a passage, or
you've read the Creed andrecited it and you keep that in
mind as you meditate onScripture Lots of different ways
tradition can help you Intheory.
Sure, there's always the dangerthat you might somehow not hear
(13:48):
something that would challengeyou, but that danger is there
simply if you read the Bible onyour own too.
Right, right, that's just tosay we're not always attentive
and that's always a danger weneed to be mindful of and
prayerful about.
And we're far better able toaddress that potential problem
(14:09):
if it's not merely us doing so,but us doing so with all the
blessings and resources andwisdom of the church through the
ages, not just our local,parochial, narrow setting, great
though that is, but oursamongst the whole community of
saints.
So the Bible itself says themore biblical you want to be,
(14:30):
the more traditional you've gotto also train.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And not just because you dress or sing or look like
them, but you learn from the waythey've heard God, and you
learn not to do what they did inevery way but, as Hebrews puts
it, to run the race set beforeyou, having learned from the
great collection of witnesses.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So we could even say, given sort of what you were
saying there and this will leadus back into the third point
that you made is it's not justan interpretive guide.
In some ways it's interpretiveguardrails, because as you're
reading scripture, engaging withit, you're going to be
interpreting it one way or theother and something needs to not
just guide you but to keep youfrom going off the road.
Yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I mean road is a helpful image.
I've been the last month or twodeep in prayer.
My oldest just got a learner'spermit.
He's a great driver, but itdoes mean suddenly.
I'm in the passenger seat oftenand imagine if I took the
approach that some suggest weought to take with the Bible
(15:33):
Just listen to the Bible, juststudy it yourself, don't listen
to the wisdom of others who'vegone before you.
That would be equivalent to mehanding the keys to my teenager
and saying go for it and learnas you go, and then sitting mute
, never offering wisdom,guidance or, as you put it,
warning.
I find that, yes, I don't wantto remove all agency and
(15:55):
responsibility from the youngdriver.
He's got to learn to act andthen to react and to learn from
it, but it would be tragic if Ididn't offer warnings.
Hey, by the way, people who dothis tend to wind up in an
accident, or people who don'tpay attention to that tend to
get sideswiped, and so it's aloving act for me to pass on
(16:20):
wisdom that I and others beforeme, oftentimes at great expense,
have learned, and we know thatin other areas of life, like
training someone up to drive acar, something that has real
effect, and I think we need tobe mindful.
Reading our Bibles and seekingto know God has real effect on
(16:42):
our souls for eternity and, byextension, the way in which we
might lead or mislead others.
And so creeds really do say,hey, we've learned some lessons
of, at times, not small errors,but grave errors that have
really undone individual livesand communities of faith.
(17:04):
And so some of those that aremost grave and consequent
they're going to be named here,not because we don't want you to
read the Bible, we don't wantyou to follow Jesus and learn as
you go, but because we wouldhate for you to do that and have
to reinvent the wheel and learnevery lesson on your own.
That would be brutally painful,and so the creed represents the
(17:28):
best of gathered wisdom up tothat point.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, so it makes me think too of.
It's not that you just startoff reading on your own and
trying to make sense of thingsyourself, or even just asking a
friend.
It's the succession ofinterpretation that you can
trace back.
So you use your example ofdriving.
It's like, well, somebodytaught you how to drive, who
taught them how to drive?
(17:52):
Who taught them how to drive?
And it's putting you in this,this continuity with the
earliest drivers.
For, however, you want to thinkof it like that, and so the
particular creed that we'regoing to talk about in more
detail in the next episode.
It goes far back into churchhistory 1700 years to be exact
and is something that's at thefountainhead.
(18:15):
Can I say fountainhead?
I guess I can say fountainhead,you did in fact, I did say it
in fact of pretty much allChristian traditions.
We mentioned this a little bitbefore recording, but in this
one of my PhD seminars we'restudying all the different
theological traditions and to aone, they all affirm the Nicene
Creed.
They vary widely in some of theinterpretive moves they might
(18:37):
make in light of it, but notthat much concerning the creed
itself.
It's usually in things beyondthe creed that there's
disagreements, and that's whythere's different traditions,
but they all trace themselvesback to this really early source
.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, so we could land the plane here talking
about.
So where did this one come fromas regards to these three goals
, and why are we payingattention to it, especially in
this season?
As you mentioned, we're payingspecial attention to it for a
couple reasons.
First, it's been the creed mostemployed by Christians across
(19:13):
traditions, as you said, and uptill now, it's not been a
mainstay at all in our worshipand in our formative practice at
New City, and so it's a goodresource that we've
underutilized.
Secondly, though, it's the1700th anniversary, and so we're
not alone in paying attentionto it.
(19:33):
A number of Christiancommunities around the globe, in
various traditions, are, in ahost of ways, trying to glean
from, understand and put to workthis creed and what it might do
to help them in their witness,in their worship, and so that's
(19:55):
the reason we've really devotedourselves to it in 2025.
1,700 years ago, christians are,in many respects, doing what we
do.
They're trying to evangelize,they're trying to grow in
communion with God, they'retrying to pass on the faith to
the next generation, they'retrying to love their neighbor
(20:19):
and, like today, from time totime there are real problems
that arise, errors that canemerge, and sometimes they do
seem to be grave or moresignificant, not just a local
problem, but something that'sreally a potential juggernaut.
And one of those issues emergedearly in the 4th century, so
(20:43):
just over 1,700 years ago, andin North Africa, which was a
massive hub of Christianity atthat time and especially the
center of a lot of Christianintellectual or theological
conversations.
So many of our best earlytheologians were there in North
Africa and in particular inAlexandria.
(21:05):
We know of the famous librarythere that's renowned and lost,
but, don't worry, nick Cagefound it in the National
Treasure movie.
There's also a rich Christiancommunity there for several
centuries, with, at most points,the greatest teachers being
Alexandrian Christians.
Well, not surprisingly, aproblem that might emerge in
(21:26):
Alexandria could quickly becomea problem that's going to
influence people around theMediterranean and beyond.
And in that time people startedto hear of the teaching and the
ministry of a character namedArius of Alexandria regarding
the Son, the incarnate Son ofGod, jesus.
(21:48):
And Arius talks about Jesus onthe one hand in ways that sound
pretty typical, reveres him,honors him, invokes him in
worship services, but at variouspoints it's plain he says
things that seem very jarring.
And others there including abishop who, I kid you not, is
(22:08):
named Alexander of Alexandriaand then very quickly and most
famously, a theologian namedAthanasius of Alexandria.
They're going to be pressingthe case, trying to make clear
what Arius teaches, why itreally challenges not just
(22:34):
intellectual ideas but the lifeof communing with God in Christ,
the calling to worship Christ,to pray in Christ's name, to
believe Christ is our one truemediator between humanity and
God.
All these things they're goingto say Arius's ideas have taken
seriously.
They really undercut all thatand we can get into the
specifics in a following episode.
But one key element inaddressing that is the convening
(22:57):
of a church council, whichthat's not new.
We see that in Acts when thechurch needs to figure out.
What do we do with all theseGentiles who seem to possess the
Holy Spirit and actually trustJesus?
And we've had Gentiles beforewho've turned to the God of
Israel, but it's always been therare person here or there, like
(23:18):
Rahab of old.
But now it's overwhelming.
And so the Council of Jerusalemis reported for us in Acts 14
and 15.
Well, here we've got a council,obviously long after the time
of the New Testament itself, buta similar idea, convening
people in Nicaea in 325.
(23:40):
About a half century laterthere'll be a following council
in Constantinople in 381, wherethe creed as we say it today is
elaborated and finished.
But really beginning in thatfirst council in Nicaea in 325,
the goal is summarize the wordof God, highlight the priorities
(24:02):
, warn against the grave threats, and at that point the main
grave threat are these ideasbeing conveyed by Arius and by
the Aryans.
We got to clarify Aryan heredoes not mean white supremacist.
It's not Aryan with a Y, it'sAryan with an I.
They have enough problems.
(24:23):
Don't need to be confused withthe racists.
Racists, but the creed'smeaning to target that, and
evermore it's been used as atool to help us catch a main
summary of the Bible highlightthings that matter much, exclude
key things that are gravethreats.
(24:44):
It's not the only creed.
It's played a unique role,though it has.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
And to bring us even more that's a great summary
there at the end, mike and tobring us even more full circle
Arius is not claiming he's gotspecial revelation outside the
Bible or that he thinks whathe's doing is faithfully
interpreting Scripture.
And so a creed is then producedto rule out this particular
(25:09):
interpretation and rule in adifferent interpretation.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, arius, he projects as a conservative who
thinks he's holding on to thisidea of God being one, and he's
quoting Bible verses.
And so the key is is he reallybeing faithful not just to a
phrase in the Bible or to asingle verse in all of Scripture
(25:33):
, is he actually being faithfulto the whole scope and to the
unified teaching of Scripture?
So I'm so glad you pointed thatout.
The creed is necessary not toget away from the Bible, but to
help communicate what the Bibleas a whole means to communicate.
And that's challenging.
That's why it took many figures,deliberating prayerfully.
(25:56):
That's why we believe.
Ultimately it requires theguidance of the Spirit and the
provision of Jesus as theteacher and Lord of the church.
Not guarantee that the churchnever makes mistakes, but
promising, as he does in Matthew16 and elsewhere, that he'll
build the church.
You know, it will extend thekingdom.
The gates of hell will notprevail against it.
(26:17):
And so we do believe that,while the church is not
infallible, we do believe thatJesus has instructed it, the
Spirit has illumined it, and oneresult of that is we've got
great wisdom in a text like thisNicene Creed.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
That's right.
Well, mike, it's been apleasure talking with you about
the importance of creeds, how wethink about them in relation to
Scripture, and just getting ourtoes wet a little bit on.
What is the Nicene Creed, whyis it important?
And I will look forward to nexttime when we dig into that
second article of it in a littlemore detail and talk about the
significance of the teachings inthat creed Sounds great.
(26:56):
See you then.
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