September 3, 2025 • 47 mins
In a world where more people feel burned out, stressed, and over-medicated, a growing movement is asking a simple but powerful question: what if the healing we need doesn’t come from a prescription bottle, but from the forest itself?
On this episode of The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry, we explore the practice of forest bathing with Dr. Gayle Byck — a certified forest therapy guide, board-certified patient advocate, and certified senior advisor. As founder of InTune with Nature and InTune Health Advocates, Dr. Byck helps people reconnect with the natural world while also navigating the complexities of the healthcare system.
Together, we discuss:
- What forest bathing really is, and how it differs from a simple walk outdoors
- The surprising ways nature impacts mental health, stress, and physical well-being
- How time in nature can reduce caregiver burnout and even lower healthcare costs
- Practical steps for reconnecting with nature — even in urban, high-stress environments
- The future of healthcare if nature-based healing were fully embraced
Dr. Byck’s journey from patient advocacy to forest therapy reveals how the most powerful medicine might be the one that’s been around us all along.
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Keith D. Terry and JJaed Productions, LLC produced this episode. www.jjaedproductions.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Keith D. Terry (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast the Next Big Thing.
I'm your host, keith D Terry, aconsultant, a coach and a
serial entrepreneur.
The mission here is to teach,inspire and to motivate.
Today's episode steps away fromthe boardroom policies and
profit margins and into thequiet power of nature.
(00:20):
We live in a fast-paced,hyper-connected world, yet more
and more people are feelingburnt out, over-medicated and
disconnected from their ownwell-being.
There is a growing movement ofpeople seeking a different kind
of healing, one that doesn'tcome in a prescription bottle or
a high-tech device, but in thescent of pine needles after rain
(00:43):
, in the slow rhythm of your ownbreath when the noises fade
away.
My guest today bridges twoworlds the structured, often
complex healthcare system andthe simple, profound wisdom of
nature.
She has guided patients throughmedical red tape and now she's
guiding them through the forest,helping them rediscover clarity
(01:03):
, balance, health.
In many ways most people havenever experienced and in one
case even saved a life.
Now let me introduce you to DrGail Bick.
Dr Gail Bick is a certifiedforest therapy guide, a
certified patient advocate and acertified senior advisor.
She runs In Tune with Natureand In Tune Health, advocates
(01:27):
blending science, advocacy andcompassion to support both
patients and caregivers whostand beside them.
Today, we're exploring howslowing down, stepping outside
and truly connecting with naturecan change not only your health
, but your life.
Gail, dr Bick, welcome to theNext Big Thing.
How are you doing today?
Dr. Gayle Byck (01:47):
I'm good.
Thanks, keith, and I love thatintro.
I feel like you just kind ofput it all together.
Keith D. Terry (01:53):
Well, thank you.
Well, let's you know, before we, you know, get into the science
of this.
I want to.
I want to try something.
Start with the human side ofthis and take me back to a
moment where you were standingoutside in nature and you felt a
shift.
What happened?
Dr. Gayle Byck (02:10):
I can share something that happened that was
really profound and what mademe actually go into the forest
bathing and take the forestguide training course.
It was it was in April of 2023and my dad had just passed away
about six weeks before.
He hadn't been well for a longtime and you know things were
(02:31):
rough at the end and my daughterwas getting married at the end
of May of that year, so it was astressful time, let's just put
it that way, and I um, I havethis, what I call my happy place
in Utah that I love to go to.
Okay, and I asked my best friendfrom college to meet me there,
and as soon as we pulled up andlooked out at the state park
(02:54):
that borders this adventure spa,they call it I immediately and
physically felt the stressleaving my body from head to toe
.
And physically felt the stressleaving my body from head to toe
, and I think that when I gotthere, my shoulders were like up
here.
I was so stressed out and theydropped and I just I turned and
looked at my friend and I saidI'm going to do this forest
(03:16):
bathing thing.
And that was the moment thatbecause I had heard about it
maybe, maybe four or five yearsbefore and, like a lot of people
, I laughed when I heard thename forest bathing and you know
I didn't really.
I knew that I always feltreally good in nature.
I call it I need my nature fix.
Keith D. Terry (03:34):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (03:35):
And you know, I feel I go out to these national
parks out west and I feelre-energized, I feel calmer, I
just felt more in balance and Ijust had this need to do that
regularly.
And then this experience was soprofound that I said I'm going
to go ahead and see how I canbring this to other people.
Keith D. Terry (03:53):
Well, you know, that's interesting because that
gets me to my next question.
What a great segue.
That is because you know you've, you've walked both sides.
You're walking the healing highpressure side, where you know.
Now you're on the quiet side,and I guess that's when you
realized that you had to step tothe other side, did you?
You know, when did you make the?
Was it that moment that youmade the connection that this
(04:15):
would be a part of your businessplan?
Dr. Gayle Byck (04:18):
It really was and it made sense because all of
my clients on the patientadvocacy side are stressed out.
There's not a single person thatreaches out to me that isn't
stressed.
I once had the daughter of aclient, after like a really
tough phone call with her dad,call me up after and apologize
for how he was just kind ofventing and behaving, and I said
(04:41):
to her it's okay, everyone isstressed.
That's why they need me.
I don't take it personally andit's true whether people are
calling me because there's anillness they need help managing
or they're fighting with theirinsurance company over tens or
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You know it's stressful and soit kind of all connected for me
(05:02):
then that you know how can wehelp people have less stress.
And I also, like I were.
A lot of my advocacy clientshave been older people, people
with dementia, and all of asudden they're being moved into
senior communities, memory carefacilities and they're not
getting outside that often andsome of these people like that's
what that was their favoritething to do.
(05:23):
One of my clients used to do100-mile bike rides, you know,
and she'd go for several walks aday.
She liked gardening and I'd govisit her in memory care and
they're always inside.
You know people need it and Ileave these places and I think
(05:44):
I'm going to be so depressed ifI'm here one day and I'm stuck
inside.
It's like you walk out and youalmost need to take a deep
breath of the fresh air.
You know, and so I'm working onhow can we bring more nature to
people who maybe can't get tothe forest or can't get to the
beach or the mountains, and sothat's also a connection.
Keith D. Terry (06:04):
Before we do that deep dive, I have one more
human side question, and that isyou know, if the world could
hear one truth about you thatdoesn't show up on your LinkedIn
profile, what would that be?
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:15):
Oh, you need to give me that in advance to think
about.
Keith D. Terry (06:21):
Well, you know.
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:22):
I'm an empath, are you?
I really feel what otherpeople's pain, other people's
stress, other people's issuesand want to help them.
Maybe that doesn't show up in aLinkedIn profile, but I'm
really trying to connect withpeople and help them.
Keith D. Terry (06:41):
Wow, an empath, that's pretty.
That's a pretty powerful toolin trade to have.
I mean, has that been somethingthat you've tried to make more
pronounced and significant as apart of who you are?
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:53):
Absolutely Okay, absolutely.
It's something that I'd sayreally worked on more in the
last 10 years through somethings I've done for personal
growth.
Keith D. Terry (07:03):
And just interesting when did you find
out you were an empath?
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:05):
Oh, I don't know .
Keith D. Terry (07:08):
Because I wish I was.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:13):
I don't know Again.
It's from a lot of work I'vedone personally and spiritually
and just how I feel when I'mlistening or reading stories
about other people's pain.
Keith D. Terry (07:27):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:28):
You know, I really take that in.
Keith D. Terry (07:29):
Okay, Okay.
So now let's dive in.
And so you took.
You know I'm sorry to hearabout your father.
Thank you, you took this trip.
You were in nature and it madeyou relax.
Had you been hearing aboutforest bathing before then?
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:44):
I heard a little bit about it and, like I said,
I just kind of laughed about it.
Keith D. Terry (07:48):
You know it has a funny name.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:50):
Let's be honest.
Keith D. Terry (07:51):
Right out there it has a funny name.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:53):
Everyone likes to make the same joke, which is
oh, are we going in the forestand taking our clothes off and
taking a bath?
And no, please keep yourclothes on during the experience
.
It's a bath for your senses iswhat it is.
But you know it sounded alittle weird.
I was very focused on thatpatient advocacy business and
(08:14):
then I didn't give it a lot ofthought until that experience
after my dad passed.
Keith D. Terry (08:18):
Yeah, and again I'm sorry to hear that, and now
I really understand that becauseI was going to ask is there a
personal experience that led youthere?
I guess what I'm asking now.
It's one thing to use forcedbathing personally, but you've
now stepped in and made it partof your profession, and what was
the process of going aboutgetting a certification First,
(08:40):
recognizing that it's a realbusiness, I guess?
Can you help me to understandthat part of it?
Dr. Gayle Byck (08:45):
Yeah, so there are these two women who run a
program called the ForestTherapy School, and I did the
training through them and it wasfabulous in that we had a
cohort of, I think, around 16people from not only all over
the country, but we even hadsomeone from New Zealand who
would be on our Zoom, our weeklyZoom calls.
And so just really connectingwith other people who wanted to
(09:08):
do this work and it gave a senseof community to it too, and so
I've met others and you know weall try to help each other and
share Programs that aren'talways just traditional forest
bathing, such as bringing evennature indoors to senior
communities and people who can'tget out, or doing these full
(09:30):
moon programs.
And you know, in the evenings,where we have a little bit
different, we do some forestbathing and some journaling and
releasing.
You know what's holding us back, sort of thing, and so just
giving lots of ideas and aframework for thinking about the
business.
(09:50):
And then I've just beenbasically doing word of mouth.
So I started this last year andif you're in the Chicago area,
so you remember the great cicadainvasion of 2024?
Keith D. Terry (10:01):
Yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones, yeah, of
2024.
Dr. Gayle Byck (10:06):
Yes, yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones.
Yeah, yes.
So it was a little bit of arough start because nobody
wanted to go out and havecicadas flying at them all the
time.
But I basically offered acouple like free sessions to
people in my networking groupsand then the word started
getting out and I startedbooking all these programs with
different groups.
Some businesses do it as anemployee wellness type of
program or just a treat fortheir employees, a team building
(10:29):
exercise.
I've done this with friendgroups, with a family, with
senior centers, throughlibraries.
It works for really every ageand every type of person.
Keith D. Terry (10:41):
So let's start with the basics.
What is forest bathing?
Dr. Gayle Byck (10:44):
So, as I said, it's a bath for your senses.
We're immersing our senses innature, and it started in Japan
in the 1980s and it's inJapanese.
It's called Shinrin Yoku, whichjust means forest bath, and, as
you said in your intro, theystarted it because of their high
tech work culture and what theywere seeing in their society.
(11:06):
As a result of that, peoplecreated this concept of forest
bathing and there's a structureto it.
We start with a guidedmeditation that really focuses
on awakening all of your senses,and then there's a series of
invitations, and the invitationsare to wander out and notice
something, and so, as an example, it might be wander out and
(11:28):
listen to the sounds of theforest.
You know when I do a nice quoteor poem to lead into each
invitation and then you havetime to wander out and notice
whatever the invitation is about.
Or I make it clearer the wordinvitation is very purposeful.
If that's not what you want todo or think about or notice,
then do something else.
It's your time in nature.
(11:49):
You know we like to say in theforest guide community that the
trees know what you need, theforest knows what you need.
Keith D. Terry (11:56):
Got it, so you do what you need.
Got it.
Dr. Gayle Byck (11:58):
And then we come back after each invitation and
we have a sharing circle sopeople can share their
observations or what came upfrom them.
Again, everything's optional inforest bathing, so if you want
to pass, you pass, and sometimespeople say you know.
Keith D. Terry (12:12):
As long as you are in nature, there is a
benefit that you get.
Dr. Gayle Byck (12:15):
There is a benefit.
Yes, so in a sharing circlesomeone might say oh, I noticed
that some of the leaves are softand some are prickly.
Or people might say somethinglike what a woman said this
summer, which was I noticed thatthe tree was so bent over and
weighed down and it was almostat the point of breaking but
(12:36):
because of the branches fell onanother tree.
That tree was supporting thefirst tree and holding it up,
and she said that made herrealize that she's dealing with
something really difficult andshe hasn't asked for help and
she needs to ask her supportsystem for some help.
So, like you know, the commentsare they range.
(12:57):
And then, after we do theseries of invitations, we end
with the tea gathering.
So again, it started in Japan,so of course it ends with tea,
and the tea is about gratitudeand reciprocity with the earth
and just a time to kind ofdebrief at the end and talk
about the experience, and oftenpeople don't want to leave.
(13:18):
They're feeling really relaxedand they don't want to go on
with their day.
Keith D. Terry (13:22):
Now, is there a certain type of forest that you
should go to, certain kind ofgreenery you should go to?
All forests considered the samehealer power.
Dr. Gayle Byck (13:35):
How do you look at it, so the way I look at it,
because again we're in theChicago area- so we don't have
the vast regal forests ofYosemite or Yellowstone or you
know, out west and it stillworks.
So you can go anywhere.
You can do this in yourbackyard, you can.
If you're in the city andthere's not a lot of greenery,
(13:58):
you can find a tree.
You could sit on your porchwith a plant, you know, and have
the experience.
You can do it at the beach, inthe desert, you know, at any
place.
Just be outside.
You can even do it indoors.
As I mentioned earlier, I'vebeen doing things where I'm
bringing nature in.
You know we have a long winterhere.
Keith D. Terry (14:17):
Yeah, we do.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:18):
I like to say there's no bad weather, just bad
clothes.
But the truth is, especiallyfor people who aren't well or
who are older.
They're not going to go outsidein the winter or even in all
the extreme heat days we've hadthis summer.
Keith D. Terry (14:32):
Well, can you do forest bathing in the winter.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:34):
You can Okay.
In fact, it can be a wonderfulexperience.
Keith D. Terry (14:39):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:39):
You know you got that fresh air.
You don't have as many otherpeople outside and it's really
interesting to go to the samespot in each season and reflect
on how it's changed and what'sdifferent, and even connect
those to our own life cycles.
You know we've got winters.
Keith D. Terry (15:02):
Well, you know, most people know that nature is
good for us, and you've studiedit.
Are there some surprisingoutcomes or impacts that happen
mentally, physically andemotionally that you could talk
about?
Dr. Gayle Byck (15:16):
Absolutely, and research going on at all the top
universities around the worldby neuroscientists and others
who are studying the effects ofnature including forest bathing,
but nature in general on ourhealth.
So I don't think it'ssurprising to hear about the
mental health benefits, becauseI think most people have had
(15:39):
experiences where they go out innature and we feel calmer less
stressed.
Our mood is better, we were morecreative afterwards.
You know there's a lot ofreally interesting studies and
not so surprising, butphysically I find that more
surprising.
So the trees release somethingcalled phytoncides which protect
(16:01):
them from disease and frompests.
And the phytoncides can bethought of as like the essential
oils of the tree and when webreathe those phytoncides in, it
activates our immune system.
It activates what's called ournatural killer cells.
So there's research going onabout can being in the forest be
protective against cancer?
(16:22):
Can it help with yourcardiovascular health?
And there's people who havestudied the effects of going in
the forest on our blood pressure, our heart rate, our cortisol
levels, cortisol measures,stress.
So in Japan they have somedesignated forest bathing trails
and they've done research wherethey'll get you at the
beginning, if you want toparticipate, and they'll measure
(16:42):
your blood pressure, heart rate, cortisol and whatever else
they're studying, and when youcome out they'll take those
measurements again and it allgoes in the right direction and
then they followed people overtime and those effects can last
for a week or more.
So in Japan your doctor mightnot write you a prescription for
medicine.
He or she might write you aprescription to go out in nature
(17:04):
for two hours every week.
So they're looking at it in adifferent way than most of us
are here.
Yeah, there was a study from Ithink it was 1984, where they
looked at people who werehospitalized and whether they
had a view out their window ofsome greenery or of that brick
wall that sometimes happens.
(17:25):
And people who had the greeneryview were released from the
hospital sooner, they recoveredfaster.
There's so much fascinatingresearch going on in the area.
But, yes, mental health andphysical health benefits from
being in nature, and we haven'teven talked about just the
physical activity Now.
Forest bathing is not astrenuous hike and it's really
(17:46):
slow paced, but you are outsideand you're walking around, and
so that's a benefit as well.
Keith D. Terry (17:51):
Okay, and so emotionally, I would assume that
have there been studies on theemotional side of health?
Dr. Gayle Byck (17:59):
Of being in nature.
Well, nature can help yourbrain release all those happy
chemicals Dopamine, serotonin,oxytocin.
What else I'm missing?
A couple Endorphins.
Keith D. Terry (18:10):
You know, there are all these right.
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:12):
So that's more your emotional side.
It can also help you feel moreconnected to other people and to
the world, to nature, and itcan just make you feel good in
general.
The world to nature, and it canjust make you feel good in
general.
Keith D. Terry (18:26):
Well, you know I'm a believer in what you're
doing.
I know I have a daughter thatlives in California and she
hikes all the time.
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:34):
Mm, hmm.
Keith D. Terry (18:35):
You know, I like to get out and ride my bike and
I love riding this lake andgreenery and doing different
kinds of things.
I wonder, because you are ahealth advocate and you are, you
know, Godspeed to you Are youfinding that Western medicine is
accepting of what you're doingand where are the pain points
for you?
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:55):
So I think that just in our country, there's not
just the medical professionals,but a lot of people are looking
for that quick fix, like giveme the medication and then I'll
feel better, right, but I thinkslowly people are realizing it.
I recently bumped into a doctorwho I had met when I went
(19:17):
Actually, he ended up being mydad's doctor at the end and he
said I've been following you onLinkedIn and I'm so fascinated
by the forest bathing and I wantto set up a time where we can
talk and I want to see, like howyou know if I could talk to my
patients about it or what wecould do.
So and I just ran into himrecently.
So we still, you know, wehaven't had that meeting yet,
(19:37):
but I think that when you takethe time to learn about nature,
you know and hopefully we'regoing to see this slow change or
maybe hopefully it won't be soslow where healthcare
professionals start seeing, youknow, the benefits of more
holistic approaches to health.
Keith D. Terry (19:54):
Okay, so you've worked with.
You know.
This next question is morereally a I won't call it a
clinical question, but you'veworked with healthy individuals
and some people who are reallyfacing serious health conditions
and I'm going to assume thatgetting out of nature, can you
talk about the impact on bothgroups, the healthy group and
the sick group?
Dr. Gayle Byck (20:15):
Sure.
So one thing I do is I do amonthly nature program for an
adult day program.
So those are people withdementia and we're looking.
When you're working with peoplewith dementia, you're looking
to create moments of joy forthem and to help keep them calm
and busy and interested, right.
So you know, every month when Ido this program there's some
(20:36):
great moment of joy that happens.
You know, one month this guycame up to me who has dementia
and he said you know, thisprogram has made me remember my
childhood home and there weretwo trees I could see from my
bedroom window when I was a kidand I'm so happy just
remembering that, you know whenhis face was lit up and that
probably changed his whole day.
(20:56):
Or I did a program for peoplewith dementia and their spouses
or care partners, whoever itcame with.
And one guy all of a suddensaid I went to Yellowstone once
and his wife, who looked sotired when she got there, just
lit up and she said you rememberthat trip we took.
And he said yeah, and theystarted reminiscing about it and
(21:19):
for that couple it just changedtheir day, right, it gave her
some hope, it gave her joy andhim joy too.
So those are a couple examples.
I once took a mother and adaughter out on a walk and the
daughter was probably around 30.
And the mother had told me thatthe daughter had severe anxiety
, severe ADHD, some other mentalhealth issues and I couldn't
(21:42):
quite tell at first, like if shewas there because she wanted to
be or just kind of appeasingher mom.
But we talked at the beginning,we did the meditation, I gave
the first invitation and she ranout into the woods like off
trail and just with like a lotof excitement and when it was
time to come back and do oursharing circle we had to wait
(22:05):
for her for a bit and finallyshe came and she just was
bursting with excitement andshe's like this was the most
incredible experience, she said.
My whole life I have feltjudged by everyone.
And I've been worried about whatpeople think.
And she goes and you know what?
The trees aren't judging me,the trees are just letting me be
here with them.
(22:26):
And I have never felt so free.
And the whole experience wentlike that.
She just couldn't stop talkingand sharing the mother, her
mouth was just wide open thewhole time.
She couldn't believe all thather daughter was just telling us
.
And I am not a therapist and Iam, you know, very careful not
to act in any way like atherapist in those kinds of
(22:49):
situations.
I just listen, you know, andwhat most people want is someone
to listen to them, right?
Keith D. Terry (22:55):
And yes.
Dr. Gayle Byck (22:55):
Yes.
So she, she poured out herheart, literally poured out her
heart to her mom and I, and atthe end she said thank you,
you've given me a new tool in mycoping toolbox.
You know, I now have a newstrategy.
I never before thought I couldgo into nature and it would make
me feel this way, so I thoughtthat that was an incredibly
(23:17):
powerful experience.
I also one time had a group oftherapists out on a walk and a
woman who wasn't part of thegroup came up and asked me what
are you guys doing?
And I told her about it and shestarted sobbing and she said
that her mother had just passedaway a couple of weeks ago and
she's like I feel like I needthis.
(23:38):
And then we started talking abit Again.
The patient advocacy reallyhelped me be there for her
because of my knowledge andexperience with how to deal with
that situation, and she askedme for a hug and she said thank
you.
This made me feel better.
And then, at the end of theforest bathing walk, the woman
who had organized it came up andasked me what was going on with
(24:01):
me and that woman, and when Itold her, she started crying
also and she said that she'sbeen caring for both of her
parents and it's so hard and shejust started crying and said
she needed a hug and it was likejust this feel good kind of
thing.
But you just never know whatpeople are going through and how
just this experience mightchange them.
(24:22):
Being in nature.
Somehow it makes you more openand vulnerable, I think.
Keith D. Terry (24:27):
I understand and I heard you when you said
you're not a therapist, you'recareful not to do that, but I
hate using the word but, but Iwill in this case.
And you are a therapist becauseyou're helping folks out there
with nature.
So how do you approach?
You know, you've explained whatforest bathing is.
Now help my listeners to kindof.
You know, put us in a session.
(24:48):
You know I come.
Do I make an appointment withyou?
You know how do.
How do I?
How do I go and engage in thisprocess?
Dr. Gayle Byck (24:58):
So when people reach out to me, I've been
booking these forest bathingexperiences as generally through
groups or organizations nothaving programs where people can
just sign up individually.
I've had some people reach outabout individual sessions, so
generally it's like a work group, a networking group, a family
(25:19):
you know something like that.
Keith D. Terry (25:20):
It's an organized entity that's
coordinating this.
Dr. Gayle Byck (25:23):
But also, people have been reaching out on their
own.
I've had to do a couple ofreschedules with these two
people.
But a daughter reached outbecause her mom has ALS and is
in a wheelchair and they'relooking for like different
experiences that she can haveand still feel alive.
You know, and connected We'vehad, she can't handle the really
(25:44):
hot days, so that's why we'vehad to do some rescheduling.
But you know, so it can be that.
Or it can be you sign upthrough your local library and
they bring me in, or you know,your business brings me in to do
a program.
Keith D. Terry (25:56):
OK, OK, that's.
That's wonderful that you haveto be in.
Is there a minimum?
Wonderful that you have to bein the.
Is there a minimum timeframeyou have to be engaged in nature
versus or maximum?
How do you, how do youprescribe this?
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:07):
So the research says that, like you know, an
hour and a half to two hours ormore is ideal, but not per day,
like in a week, say, like oneone time that they talk about,
like to drop in, to really likeget that relaxation can take an
hour and a half, but I've seenit happen much quicker and the
(26:29):
truth is most of us don't havean hour and a half or two hours,
you know, or more, at a time,but we could get benefits from a
few minutes, you know.
Have you ever just needed towalk around the block to clear
your mind?
Keith D. Terry (26:41):
You know what's interesting is?
You know, I think people havethe time.
They don't make the time.
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:47):
Well, that's a good point.
Keith D. Terry (26:48):
Because you know .
I think this, because you know.
One of the questions I wasgoing to ask you is do you think
our modern society, especiallyhere in the United States, is
making people sick?
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:58):
I do.
I saw a statistic that, onaverage, kids have less than
seven minutes a day of outdoorplaytime.
Keith D. Terry (27:07):
Seven minutes yeah.
Dr. Gayle Byck (27:09):
I read that just the other day.
I've seen stats that 93% ofAmericans are in.
93% of our time is spentindoors and other cultures
aren't like that.
I was very lucky that I got togo to Norway at the beginning of
March and Norway and theScandinavian countries have a
(27:29):
concept called free loose live.
I always have to pause when Isay it, so I say it right and
basically it means the joy ofoutdoor living.
And think about those are.
Those are cold countries, coldclimate countries and people are
outside every day regularly andit's just part of their culture
that they do this year round.
That if you want to leave workearly on Friday and you tell
(27:52):
your boss free, loose, live, andyour boss says, have a good
weekend.
You know and like it's just,it's part of their culture and
they're healthy and they'rehappier.
You look at those studies ofwhat are the happiest countries
of the world and a lot of themare those cold climate countries
.
Keith D. Terry (28:07):
but they have a and someone who's seen Dr Gail
Bick before using forced bathingand after, what's your
therapeutic approach for caringfor you?
(28:29):
You're helping folks on thehealth advocacy side, which you
already said it was stressful,and now you're helping people on
the forest bathing side, whichcould be stressful because
people are new to it A lot ofquestions and expecting maybe a
microwave approach that they'llbe healed in 30 seconds or 30
(28:50):
minutes.
Take me through what you do foryou.
Dr. Gayle Byck (28:53):
I like to get outside and I've from the forest
bathing.
I've pushed myself to getoutside on those cold days where
I used to.
It used to be easy to say youknow it's freezing out, but I'm,
you know, bundling up andgetting out and it can.
It's really made a difference.
Keith D. Terry (29:11):
So are you walking.
Dr. Gayle Byck (29:12):
Walking.
Yeah, you can just walk.
I just walk in the neighborhood.
You know there was one day thiswinter it was freezing and I
just woke up in a miserable mood.
You know there was one day thiswinter it was freezing and I
just woke up in a miserable mood.
You know how that happenssometimes.
And I said, I just bundled upand I just took a walk over to
the park nearby where there's alittle creek and I saw these
ducks playing in the water and Iwatched them for a few minutes
(29:35):
and I just was so happy fromwatching the ducks and then I
walked back and I felt like anew person and it totally
changed the rest of my day.
So I'm really kind of leaningin more to getting outside, even
on the days where it's not socomfortable, temperature wise.
Keith D. Terry (29:52):
You're answering all my questions because I was
going to ask you can you give mea specific story about a time
when getting out in naturechanged someone's circumstance
and you just described it.
You woke up in a bad mood andvoila Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:04):
And so sometimes even just going out like a lot
of us work from home now andwork outside.
Take your laptop outside and dosome work there and get some
fresh air.
Keith D. Terry (30:14):
What kind of resistance?
Or well, let's, let's, let'ssay favorable.
What kind of?
Are you finding that Endeavor'shealth and the hospitals and
the healthcare systems areembracing this, or is it
insurance driven?
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:29):
I would say I haven't gone after either of
those approaches.
Okay, just been kind of puttingit out there to the general
public.
Keith D. Terry (30:37):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:38):
Yeah, I was going to say something and I
forgot.
Keith D. Terry (30:41):
Well, no, the only reason I was going to ask
is I would assume that peoplepay for this, or is it totally
volunteer?
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:47):
that you do.
No, I do have a fee.
Keith D. Terry (30:50):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:51):
Again, a lot of times, because it might be
through a library or seniorcenter or business or something,
people aren't payingindividually.
And I still have a lot ofprograms with the Cook County
Forest Preserves that I've beendoing.
Keith D. Terry (31:04):
So people aren't paying individually, it's more
the organization paying me atthis point, I understand and I
guess I see value in utility andI would assume that the ramp up
rate or the usage rate wouldincrease significantly if both
of the entities that I mentionedhealth care providers and
(31:24):
insurance would back this.
Are you?
You haven't approached it.
Dr. Gayle Byck (31:28):
You've given me a great idea.
I honestly don't see insurancecovering it.
Just that's a whole otherconversation.
Our health insurance system.
Keith D. Terry (31:36):
Yeah, it sure is .
Dr. Gayle Byck (31:38):
It's a really interesting idea to approach
some of the big hospital systems, healthcare systems in our area
about how to offer this as awellness program.
Keith D. Terry (31:49):
And companies too.
I mean, I tend to think thatpeople are under stress, you
know, and taking a walk, if youremember, during COVID, a lot of
people got outside and walked,they walked in it.
I have some really dear friendsand, and you know, they got out
and walked miles every daybecause who wanted to stay in
(32:11):
the house all the time?
Dr. Gayle Byck (32:12):
Right.
Keith D. Terry (32:13):
They had their masks on, but they walked and
and and I knew one person thatwas incredibly uptight that they
were calmer after they were out, and so I kind of liked that
that.
Dr. Gayle Byck (32:25):
You know, I once took a team of a work team on a
walk and there were a bunch ofwomen who were like young
mothers.
They had little kids and youknow just the experience.
My kids are older now, but whenI had to get them up and ready
for school and myself ready forwork and everyone out the door,
it's pretty stressful, you know.
(32:45):
Those mornings are high stressand everyone's yelling at each
other and one of the women atthe end said she goes.
This experience made me realizethat if I could just get myself
outside for 10 minutes eachmorning before I wake the kids
up, I think the whole morningthing would be calmer and the
whole day would be better forall of us.
So that that's like tied into,like how can we?
(33:08):
We help people working, youknow, get, have less stress and
have the time to do this?
Wouldn't it be great ifemployers would say like all
right, in the middle of the daywe're going to have a 10 minute
or 15 minute, you know whateverbreak where everyone can go
outside and there's a conceptcalled sit spot where you just
(33:28):
go outside and you sit and yougive yourself permission to do
nothing for the 10 minutes.
And that's really like we dothis on the forest bathing walks
and some people look at me likewhat, you want me to sit and do
nothing?
Yeah, I want you to sit and donothing, and so it's hard for
people to kind of get used to it.
(33:48):
But then you come back and youjust feel refreshed and you have
feel re-energized and you'remore creative.
I mean, at the end of that workgroup walk I mentioned people.
They were brainstorming abouthow they could do things.
It was a group that, like theyown and manage a lot of shopping
malls Like how could they bringmore nature experiences to the
(34:10):
malls for people who come or forthe people who work there?
And all of a sudden theirbrains are going and they're
thinking of all these thingsbecause they just had this quiet
time like to calm their minds.
Keith D. Terry (34:21):
And you know well, I'm going to put some
people in my family on blast.
I have people in my family onblast, have people in my family
that don't like to go outside,and I think they're crazy for it
, and so I call them naturehesitant.
Okay, and I'm glad you're goingthere.
So how do you deal with thosetypes of people who are nature
(34:45):
hesitant.
Dr. Gayle Byck (34:46):
Sometimes I get nature, hesitant people on the
walks and maybe they were kindof coerced into it by a spouse
or something like that andthey'll tell.
Like I took a group out onSunday and one of the guys said
to me because I'm an indoorhusband, I was just forced to be
here.
And you know what my approachis like, I'm just glad you're
(35:08):
here experiencing this.
And you know what my approachis like, I'm just glad you're
here experiencing this.
And you know, like one of theinvitations I often try to do is
about touch, getting people toactually touch the trees, the
plants, the flowers.
Keith D. Terry (35:18):
How do you Because?
Dr. Gayle Byck (35:19):
well, the you know, the tactile response, the
sensory stimulation is soimportant to all of our
well-being, and so I'm like justtrying to get people to touch
things.
And nature has folks they don'twant to touch things and nature
has folks they don't want totouch, like they're nervous.
So I said don't touch, justlook, you know.
Again it's like do whateverworks for you in that moment.
We're just glad you're hereoutside.
(35:40):
And hopefully, then theyexperience it and enjoy it and
want to do it more.
Keith D. Terry (35:45):
I understand.
Is it better to you know, let'stalk about the sensory part.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Is it better to just take awalk, or should you walk in and
use your sensory senses?
Dr. Gayle Byck (35:58):
I think using your senses is great.
You know so often when we walkwe're listening to a podcast or
talking on the phone with afriend or music or we're with a
friend and we're and we'rewalking and we're not really
taking it all in, and or we'rewalking for exercise.
Right, you're just powerwalking, and so part of the what
we do in forest bathing is youare just slowing down, you're
(36:21):
taking it all in and it's reallymagical.
It's just a magical experience,like for your senses, and.
But I'd say walking is betterthan not walking and, as we
talked about before, like beingin your, in your backyard or on
a patio with just one plant, isbetter than not being out
(36:42):
outside, even though the forestis probably best, you know.
So someone once said to me inthe years ago don't let the
perfect be the enemy of the good.
You know, whatever you, youknow it doesn't have to be ideal
to get these benefits.
Keith D. Terry (36:56):
That's brilliantly said.
Don't let the perfect be theenemy of the good.
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:00):
And there's something also called awe walks.
I learned this from an ecogerontologist out in California
and that's just the idea that,like, go on a walk and find
something that you can be in aweof Okay.
You know.
So she did a video where shewas in a grocery store parking
lot and there was a tree and she, like, just sat by the tree and
just to illustrate this, andthe science behind awe is very
(37:24):
similar to the science behindnature, like it, it makes you
less stressed, it makes you feelless anxious, it just gives you
a sense of connection to things, to the world.
Keith D. Terry (37:35):
Now for those kids that are in the urban areas
, where it's a concrete jungle,is being outside in the city
different or the same as beingin?
For I mean, it's probably acrazy question, but is it?
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:47):
Right, so you have to adapt to what you have
available to you.
Keith D. Terry (37:50):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:51):
Right.
So again, that's where the onetree comes into play.
Or, just you know, finding alittle park near you where you
can enjoy some greenery.
Keith D. Terry (38:01):
So the key is greenery.
I got it.
I get it now.
It's not.
It's not outside, it's beingconnected, like gardening.
You know it's not outside, it'sbeing connected, or even like
gardening.
Dr. Gayle Byck (38:08):
You know, plant some stuff in your yard, on your
deck, whatever you have.
There's a bacteria in the soilwhich, when we get our hands in
there, it improves our mood, itcan improve our cognition.
So, like, get your hands inthere and garden.
You know, there's so many waysto bring nature in.
Like, I love being in theforest, I love being in the
(38:29):
mountains, I love being in themountains.
Keith D. Terry (38:31):
We don't have any mountains in Chicago, so I'm
not getting to the mountains,you know.
Dr. Gayle Byck (38:34):
But, like you just kind of find what works for
you and it.
You know, and it's definitelytougher in urban areas, but I
think what we're hopefully goingto see is more urban planning,
more design using somethingcalled biophilic design, which
is just a way of trying to bringnature in.
(38:55):
So like, how can we bring inmore natural light into our
office?
Can we have green walls?
Keith D. Terry (39:01):
You know, I think it'll help some of the
violence happening in some ofthe inner cities and all across
America.
I mean, it's just.
Everybody seems to be sostressed out on everything.
A couple more questions for youis what do you think are some
of the obstacles keeping peoplefrom seeking this kind of
healing?
Is it because they don't knowabout it, or are there other
(39:24):
obstacles?
Dr. Gayle Byck (39:25):
I think some of it is not knowing about it.
I definitely spend a lot oftime in my intro and overview at
each sports bathing programtalking about the health
benefits, and I can see thelight bulbs going off in
people's heads.
You know like, oh, I'm not justout here to hug trees.
You know, or like do some weirdhippy dippy, new age kind of
(39:46):
thing, like Like this is real,there's science behind it, and
then you know that really seemsto like hook people in, is just
that understanding about whatnature does.
So I think education andawareness is important.
I also think something thatyou've been touching on is what
about the accessibility ofnature?
You know, if you're in urbanareas, you don't have nature as
(40:08):
we think about it.
So it's like kind of reframingwhat nature can I find?
What nature can I bring in, youknow, into my immediate world
so that it's accessible and mostnature is free?
You know, hopefully, like thecost issue goes out the window
because anyone can go find aplace, you know, along Lake
(40:28):
Michigan to walk.
Our forest preserves are free.
I was actually amazed to learnthat the Cook County forest
preserves are 11% of all theland in Cook County.
So we live in an area where,like, there's been a real
commitment to preserving nature.
I don't want to go off trackinto difficult areas, but I am
(40:48):
concerned about what the futureholds in terms of nature.
Keith D. Terry (40:52):
Well, tell me about that.
Dr. Gayle Byck (40:53):
Well, you know, there's all the climate change
issues, pollution, protectingour public lands, you know, from
development, that sort of thing.
Keith D. Terry (41:03):
I see, I see the impact on actual nature itself.
Yeah, I concur with you, and Ithink there are a lot of people
who do.
However, you know, some of thegovernments across the globe are
starting to shift theirso-called policies greenhouse
gases, things of that nature andso if we were to go the other
way, though, if people did adopta nature-based healing system,
(41:27):
just tell me pontificate for amoment.
10 years from now, what do youthink the outcome is for America
?
Dr. Gayle Byck (41:34):
I think we'd have people just a lot happier
and better placed mentally andphysically too.
You know the getting outsidehelps.
You want to move your body, andthen we talked about you know
the effect on the immune system.
But I think really to makechange, we need to get the young
people outside right so thatthey grow up appreciating nature
(41:57):
.
You know we could have a wholeshow talking about screens and
technology and safety issues asyou were also alluding to before
of being outside.
But you know just letting,making sure people know how good
they they can feel out innature and what it does for you.
I mean, a lot of times peoplewalk out of the walks and I'm
(42:18):
not pushing the climate issuesand the politics, but you feel
more connected to theenvironment and that makes you
want to take care of it.
So, like, how can you know?
How can we protect it?
And when people don't know allthis?
Like?
I took a group out yesterdayand one of the guys just
couldn't stop talking about howhe lived five minutes from the
(42:38):
forest preserve we were at andhe had never been there and he
couldn't stop talking about it'sso beautiful.
This is amazing.
I can't believe we can't.
I can't believe.
This is literally five minutesfrom my house and I don't do
this, you know.
And so it kind of woke him upto, you know, and I would call
him one of the nature hesitantones, you know, but like he was
(43:00):
just his mind blown about theexperience and about how there
was so much natural beauty righthere in the suburbs.
Keith D. Terry (43:07):
What do you think the impact of AI is going
to bring to forest bathing, ifanything?
Dr. Gayle Byck (43:14):
I'm not like that.
Up on AI, I'm trying to thinkabout how it could replace I
don't know.
I mean, I'm almost thinkingabout how, like a lot of these,
a lot of times, you can beindoors like a pel, a peloton
right, you can do a peloton bikeride and watching the video of
being in the forest I do thatyou know things like that I
(43:37):
don't know if that kind ofcounts under the ai thing, but
there could, I guess could bemore of that going on, but
you're not gonna get all thebenefits you know, you're.
You're not breathing in thefighting sides, you're not
touching the trees, fightingsides.
You're not touching the treesand everything and you're not.
It's just different.
Keith D. Terry (43:54):
And are you finding caregivers are embracing
force bathing?
Dr. Gayle Byck (43:58):
Yeah, I mean with the groups, the dementia
groups especially, like the,caregiving is probably one of
the, if not the hardest job outthere, right, and these people
are, they're underpaid andthey're doing a lot of work that
isn't appealing to a lot ofpeople, right, and they need a
lot of patience.
And so getting outside helpspeople who aren't well, as well
(44:22):
as their caregivers, because itprovides calm, a calming
environment, a calming activityfor both of them.
You know, and one of the thingsI'll do when I do programs more
for those groups is I'll givethem a handout at the end of
like 20 easy things you can dooutside, because, again, it's
like making sure people know,like you know, we could go
outside, we could make a birdfeeder, we could do leaf
(44:45):
rubbings.
You know we could paint rockslike all these simple things
that and you could do them withyour grandkids.
You know we could paint rockslike all these simple things
that and you could do them withyour grandkids.
Keith D. Terry (44:52):
You know it could be intergenerational.
Dr. Gayle Byck (44:54):
One of my favorite outcomes was a woman
came to one of my walks and shewas friends with someone I know,
so that's how this story gotback to me.
But she was doing a familyvacation two weeks later with
her kids and grandkids, and soshe did a modified forest bath
the first day and her teenagegrandkids loved it, and every
day she came up with anothernature activity for them to do
(45:17):
and they were able to connectand they had something to talk
about at dinner every night.
Okay, like she, you know, thatwas just.
That was a fun.
Outcome of what happened isthat she brought it to her
family.
Keith D. Terry (45:29):
Got it.
So my last question for you ifthis mic that you have in front
of you was your final chance toleave a message for the next
generation of caregivers, whatwould that message be?
As it relates to Forest Bailey.
Dr. Gayle Byck (45:41):
A message to caregivers.
Keith D. Terry (45:43):
Yeah or anyone, you pick the group.
Dr. Gayle Byck (45:45):
Well, I think to everyone is get outside.
You know, experience just allthe beauty we have out here,
give yourself a chance toconnect to nature, connect to
other people who are out thereand you know, let it, just let
yourself be.
(46:05):
You know, it's really comesdown to just learning how to be
present and mindful, and I thinkthat experiences we can have
with forest bathing can help usin our personal relationships as
well as professionally.
Just that learning to listen.
Right, you're listening to theforest, you're noticing things,
(46:26):
and when you listen to peopleand you notice people, they feel
good and you connect.
Keith D. Terry (46:32):
Well said.
Dr. Gayle Byck (46:33):
We need that, we need those connections.
Keith D. Terry (46:36):
Dr Gail Bick.
Thank you so much for being apart of the show.
You've shown us that healingdoesn't necessarily always come
from the inside, that it comesfrom outside as well.
Your work is a reminder thatsometimes the most powerful
medicine is the simplest, andthat is being outside, being
present, slowing down andconnecting to the world around
(46:57):
us.
Thanks for listening to theNext Big Thing.
I'm your host, keith D Terry.
If you've enjoyed this episodeand you'd like to support this
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating and areview.
To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on my
YouTube channel at Keith D Terry.
If you want to recommend aguest, please email me at info
(47:20):
at terryperformancegroupcom.
This has been produced by yourhost and Jade Productions.
Welcome to the podcast the Next Big Thing.
I'm your host, keith D Terry, aconsultant, a coach and a
serial entrepreneur.
The mission here is to teach,inspire and to motivate.
Today's episode steps away fromthe boardroom policies and
profit margins and into thequiet power of nature.
(00:20):
We live in a fast-paced,hyper-connected world, yet more
and more people are feelingburnt out, over-medicated and
disconnected from their ownwell-being.
There is a growing movement ofpeople seeking a different kind
of healing, one that doesn'tcome in a prescription bottle or
a high-tech device, but in thescent of pine needles after rain
(00:43):
, in the slow rhythm of your ownbreath when the noises fade
away.
My guest today bridges twoworlds the structured, often
complex healthcare system andthe simple, profound wisdom of
nature.
She has guided patients throughmedical red tape and now she's
guiding them through the forest,helping them rediscover clarity
(01:03):
, balance, health.
In many ways most people havenever experienced and in one
case even saved a life.
Now let me introduce you to DrGail Bick.
Dr Gail Bick is a certifiedforest therapy guide, a
certified patient advocate and acertified senior advisor.
She runs In Tune with Natureand In Tune Health, advocates
(01:27):
blending science, advocacy andcompassion to support both
patients and caregivers whostand beside them.
Today, we're exploring howslowing down, stepping outside
and truly connecting with naturecan change not only your health
, but your life.
Gail, dr Bick, welcome to theNext Big Thing.
How are you doing today?
Dr. Gayle Byck (01:47):
I'm good.
Thanks, keith, and I love thatintro.
I feel like you just kind ofput it all together.
Keith D. Terry (01:53):
Well, thank you.
Well, let's you know, before we, you know, get into the science
of this.
I want to.
I want to try something.
Start with the human side ofthis and take me back to a
moment where you were standingoutside in nature and you felt a
shift.
What happened?
Dr. Gayle Byck (02:10):
I can share something that happened that was
really profound and what mademe actually go into the forest
bathing and take the forestguide training course.
It was it was in April of 2023and my dad had just passed away
about six weeks before.
He hadn't been well for a longtime and you know things were
(02:31):
rough at the end and my daughterwas getting married at the end
of May of that year, so it was astressful time, let's just put
it that way, and I um, I havethis, what I call my happy place
in Utah that I love to go to.
Okay, and I asked my best friendfrom college to meet me there,
and as soon as we pulled up andlooked out at the state park
(02:54):
that borders this adventure spa,they call it I immediately and
physically felt the stressleaving my body from head to toe
.
And physically felt the stressleaving my body from head to toe
, and I think that when I gotthere, my shoulders were like up
here.
I was so stressed out and theydropped and I just I turned and
looked at my friend and I saidI'm going to do this forest
(03:16):
bathing thing.
And that was the moment thatbecause I had heard about it
maybe, maybe four or five yearsbefore and, like a lot of people
, I laughed when I heard thename forest bathing and you know
I didn't really.
I knew that I always feltreally good in nature.
I call it I need my nature fix.
Keith D. Terry (03:34):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (03:35):
And you know, I feel I go out to these national
parks out west and I feelre-energized, I feel calmer, I
just felt more in balance and Ijust had this need to do that
regularly.
And then this experience was soprofound that I said I'm going
to go ahead and see how I canbring this to other people.
Keith D. Terry (03:53):
Well, you know, that's interesting because that
gets me to my next question.
What a great segue.
That is because you know you've, you've walked both sides.
You're walking the healing highpressure side, where you know.
Now you're on the quiet side,and I guess that's when you
realized that you had to step tothe other side, did you?
You know, when did you make the?
Was it that moment that youmade the connection that this
(04:15):
would be a part of your businessplan?
Dr. Gayle Byck (04:18):
It really was and it made sense because all of
my clients on the patientadvocacy side are stressed out.
There's not a single person thatreaches out to me that isn't
stressed.
I once had the daughter of aclient, after like a really
tough phone call with her dad,call me up after and apologize
for how he was just kind ofventing and behaving, and I said
(04:41):
to her it's okay, everyone isstressed.
That's why they need me.
I don't take it personally andit's true whether people are
calling me because there's anillness they need help managing
or they're fighting with theirinsurance company over tens or
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You know it's stressful and soit kind of all connected for me
(05:02):
then that you know how can wehelp people have less stress.
And I also, like I were.
A lot of my advocacy clientshave been older people, people
with dementia, and all of asudden they're being moved into
senior communities, memory carefacilities and they're not
getting outside that often andsome of these people like that's
what that was their favoritething to do.
(05:23):
One of my clients used to do100-mile bike rides, you know,
and she'd go for several walks aday.
She liked gardening and I'd govisit her in memory care and
they're always inside.
You know people need it and Ileave these places and I think
(05:44):
I'm going to be so depressed ifI'm here one day and I'm stuck
inside.
It's like you walk out and youalmost need to take a deep
breath of the fresh air.
You know, and so I'm working onhow can we bring more nature to
people who maybe can't get tothe forest or can't get to the
beach or the mountains, and sothat's also a connection.
Keith D. Terry (06:04):
Before we do that deep dive, I have one more
human side question, and that isyou know, if the world could
hear one truth about you thatdoesn't show up on your LinkedIn
profile, what would that be?
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:15):
Oh, you need to give me that in advance to think
about.
Keith D. Terry (06:21):
Well, you know.
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:22):
I'm an empath, are you?
I really feel what otherpeople's pain, other people's
stress, other people's issuesand want to help them.
Maybe that doesn't show up in aLinkedIn profile, but I'm
really trying to connect withpeople and help them.
Keith D. Terry (06:41):
Wow, an empath, that's pretty.
That's a pretty powerful toolin trade to have.
I mean, has that been somethingthat you've tried to make more
pronounced and significant as apart of who you are?
Dr. Gayle Byck (06:53):
Absolutely Okay, absolutely.
It's something that I'd sayreally worked on more in the
last 10 years through somethings I've done for personal
growth.
Keith D. Terry (07:03):
And just interesting when did you find
out you were an empath?
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:05):
Oh, I don't know .
Keith D. Terry (07:08):
Because I wish I was.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:13):
I don't know Again.
It's from a lot of work I'vedone personally and spiritually
and just how I feel when I'mlistening or reading stories
about other people's pain.
Keith D. Terry (07:27):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:28):
You know, I really take that in.
Keith D. Terry (07:29):
Okay, Okay.
So now let's dive in.
And so you took.
You know I'm sorry to hearabout your father.
Thank you, you took this trip.
You were in nature and it madeyou relax.
Had you been hearing aboutforest bathing before then?
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:44):
I heard a little bit about it and, like I said,
I just kind of laughed about it.
Keith D. Terry (07:48):
You know it has a funny name.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:50):
Let's be honest.
Keith D. Terry (07:51):
Right out there it has a funny name.
Dr. Gayle Byck (07:53):
Everyone likes to make the same joke, which is
oh, are we going in the forestand taking our clothes off and
taking a bath?
And no, please keep yourclothes on during the experience
.
It's a bath for your senses iswhat it is.
But you know it sounded alittle weird.
I was very focused on thatpatient advocacy business and
(08:14):
then I didn't give it a lot ofthought until that experience
after my dad passed.
Keith D. Terry (08:18):
Yeah, and again I'm sorry to hear that, and now
I really understand that becauseI was going to ask is there a
personal experience that led youthere?
I guess what I'm asking now.
It's one thing to use forcedbathing personally, but you've
now stepped in and made it partof your profession, and what was
the process of going aboutgetting a certification First,
(08:40):
recognizing that it's a realbusiness, I guess?
Can you help me to understandthat part of it?
Dr. Gayle Byck (08:45):
Yeah, so there are these two women who run a
program called the ForestTherapy School, and I did the
training through them and it wasfabulous in that we had a
cohort of, I think, around 16people from not only all over
the country, but we even hadsomeone from New Zealand who
would be on our Zoom, our weeklyZoom calls.
And so just really connectingwith other people who wanted to
(09:08):
do this work and it gave a senseof community to it too, and so
I've met others and you know weall try to help each other and
share Programs that aren'talways just traditional forest
bathing, such as bringing evennature indoors to senior
communities and people who can'tget out, or doing these full
(09:30):
moon programs.
And you know, in the evenings,where we have a little bit
different, we do some forestbathing and some journaling and
releasing.
You know what's holding us back, sort of thing, and so just
giving lots of ideas and aframework for thinking about the
business.
(09:50):
And then I've just beenbasically doing word of mouth.
So I started this last year andif you're in the Chicago area,
so you remember the great cicadainvasion of 2024?
Keith D. Terry (10:01):
Yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones, yeah, of
2024.
Dr. Gayle Byck (10:06):
Yes, yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones.
Yeah, yes.
So it was a little bit of arough start because nobody
wanted to go out and havecicadas flying at them all the
time.
But I basically offered acouple like free sessions to
people in my networking groupsand then the word started
getting out and I startedbooking all these programs with
different groups.
Some businesses do it as anemployee wellness type of
program or just a treat fortheir employees, a team building
(10:29):
exercise.
I've done this with friendgroups, with a family, with
senior centers, throughlibraries.
It works for really every ageand every type of person.
Keith D. Terry (10:41):
So let's start with the basics.
What is forest bathing?
Dr. Gayle Byck (10:44):
So, as I said, it's a bath for your senses.
We're immersing our senses innature, and it started in Japan
in the 1980s and it's inJapanese.
It's called Shinrin Yoku, whichjust means forest bath, and, as
you said in your intro, theystarted it because of their high
tech work culture and what theywere seeing in their society.
(11:06):
As a result of that, peoplecreated this concept of forest
bathing and there's a structureto it.
We start with a guidedmeditation that really focuses
on awakening all of your senses,and then there's a series of
invitations, and the invitationsare to wander out and notice
something, and so, as an example, it might be wander out and
(11:28):
listen to the sounds of theforest.
You know when I do a nice quoteor poem to lead into each
invitation and then you havetime to wander out and notice
whatever the invitation is about.
Or I make it clearer the wordinvitation is very purposeful.
If that's not what you want todo or think about or notice,
then do something else.
It's your time in nature.
(11:49):
You know we like to say in theforest guide community that the
trees know what you need, theforest knows what you need.
Keith D. Terry (11:56):
Got it, so you do what you need.
Got it.
Dr. Gayle Byck (11:58):
And then we come back after each invitation and
we have a sharing circle sopeople can share their
observations or what came upfrom them.
Again, everything's optional inforest bathing, so if you want
to pass, you pass, and sometimespeople say you know.
Keith D. Terry (12:12):
As long as you are in nature, there is a
benefit that you get.
Dr. Gayle Byck (12:15):
There is a benefit.
Yes, so in a sharing circlesomeone might say oh, I noticed
that some of the leaves are softand some are prickly.
Or people might say somethinglike what a woman said this
summer, which was I noticed thatthe tree was so bent over and
weighed down and it was almostat the point of breaking but
(12:36):
because of the branches fell onanother tree.
That tree was supporting thefirst tree and holding it up,
and she said that made herrealize that she's dealing with
something really difficult andshe hasn't asked for help and
she needs to ask her supportsystem for some help.
So, like you know, the commentsare they range.
(12:57):
And then, after we do theseries of invitations, we end
with the tea gathering.
So again, it started in Japan,so of course it ends with tea,
and the tea is about gratitudeand reciprocity with the earth
and just a time to kind ofdebrief at the end and talk
about the experience, and oftenpeople don't want to leave.
(13:18):
They're feeling really relaxedand they don't want to go on
with their day.
Keith D. Terry (13:22):
Now, is there a certain type of forest that you
should go to, certain kind ofgreenery you should go to?
All forests considered the samehealer power.
Dr. Gayle Byck (13:35):
How do you look at it, so the way I look at it,
because again we're in theChicago area- so we don't have
the vast regal forests ofYosemite or Yellowstone or you
know, out west and it stillworks.
So you can go anywhere.
You can do this in yourbackyard, you can.
If you're in the city andthere's not a lot of greenery,
(13:58):
you can find a tree.
You could sit on your porchwith a plant, you know, and have
the experience.
You can do it at the beach, inthe desert, you know, at any
place.
Just be outside.
You can even do it indoors.
As I mentioned earlier, I'vebeen doing things where I'm
bringing nature in.
You know we have a long winterhere.
Keith D. Terry (14:17):
Yeah, we do.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:18):
I like to say there's no bad weather, just bad
clothes.
But the truth is, especiallyfor people who aren't well or
who are older.
They're not going to go outsidein the winter or even in all
the extreme heat days we've hadthis summer.
Keith D. Terry (14:32):
Well, can you do forest bathing in the winter.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:34):
You can Okay.
In fact, it can be a wonderfulexperience.
Keith D. Terry (14:39):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (14:39):
You know you got that fresh air.
You don't have as many otherpeople outside and it's really
interesting to go to the samespot in each season and reflect
on how it's changed and what'sdifferent, and even connect
those to our own life cycles.
You know we've got winters.
Keith D. Terry (15:02):
Well, you know, most people know that nature is
good for us, and you've studiedit.
Are there some surprisingoutcomes or impacts that happen
mentally, physically andemotionally that you could talk
about?
Dr. Gayle Byck (15:16):
Absolutely, and research going on at all the top
universities around the worldby neuroscientists and others
who are studying the effects ofnature including forest bathing,
but nature in general on ourhealth.
So I don't think it'ssurprising to hear about the
mental health benefits, becauseI think most people have had
(15:39):
experiences where they go out innature and we feel calmer less
stressed.
Our mood is better, we were morecreative afterwards.
You know there's a lot ofreally interesting studies and
not so surprising, butphysically I find that more
surprising.
So the trees release somethingcalled phytoncides which protect
(16:01):
them from disease and frompests.
And the phytoncides can bethought of as like the essential
oils of the tree and when webreathe those phytoncides in, it
activates our immune system.
It activates what's called ournatural killer cells.
So there's research going onabout can being in the forest be
protective against cancer?
(16:22):
Can it help with yourcardiovascular health?
And there's people who havestudied the effects of going in
the forest on our blood pressure, our heart rate, our cortisol
levels, cortisol measures,stress.
So in Japan they have somedesignated forest bathing trails
and they've done research wherethey'll get you at the
beginning, if you want toparticipate, and they'll measure
(16:42):
your blood pressure, heart rate, cortisol and whatever else
they're studying, and when youcome out they'll take those
measurements again and it allgoes in the right direction and
then they followed people overtime and those effects can last
for a week or more.
So in Japan your doctor mightnot write you a prescription for
medicine.
He or she might write you aprescription to go out in nature
(17:04):
for two hours every week.
So they're looking at it in adifferent way than most of us
are here.
Yeah, there was a study from Ithink it was 1984, where they
looked at people who werehospitalized and whether they
had a view out their window ofsome greenery or of that brick
wall that sometimes happens.
(17:25):
And people who had the greeneryview were released from the
hospital sooner, they recoveredfaster.
There's so much fascinatingresearch going on in the area.
But, yes, mental health andphysical health benefits from
being in nature, and we haven'teven talked about just the
physical activity Now.
Forest bathing is not astrenuous hike and it's really
(17:46):
slow paced, but you are outsideand you're walking around, and
so that's a benefit as well.
Keith D. Terry (17:51):
Okay, and so emotionally, I would assume that
have there been studies on theemotional side of health?
Dr. Gayle Byck (17:59):
Of being in nature.
Well, nature can help yourbrain release all those happy
chemicals Dopamine, serotonin,oxytocin.
What else I'm missing?
A couple Endorphins.
Keith D. Terry (18:10):
You know, there are all these right.
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:12):
So that's more your emotional side.
It can also help you feel moreconnected to other people and to
the world, to nature, and itcan just make you feel good in
general.
The world to nature, and it canjust make you feel good in
general.
Keith D. Terry (18:26):
Well, you know I'm a believer in what you're
doing.
I know I have a daughter thatlives in California and she
hikes all the time.
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:34):
Mm, hmm.
Keith D. Terry (18:35):
You know, I like to get out and ride my bike and
I love riding this lake andgreenery and doing different
kinds of things.
I wonder, because you are ahealth advocate and you are, you
know, Godspeed to you Are youfinding that Western medicine is
accepting of what you're doingand where are the pain points
for you?
Dr. Gayle Byck (18:55):
So I think that just in our country, there's not
just the medical professionals,but a lot of people are looking
for that quick fix, like giveme the medication and then I'll
feel better, right, but I thinkslowly people are realizing it.
I recently bumped into a doctorwho I had met when I went
(19:17):
Actually, he ended up being mydad's doctor at the end and he
said I've been following you onLinkedIn and I'm so fascinated
by the forest bathing and I wantto set up a time where we can
talk and I want to see, like howyou know if I could talk to my
patients about it or what wecould do.
So and I just ran into himrecently.
So we still, you know, wehaven't had that meeting yet,
(19:37):
but I think that when you takethe time to learn about nature,
you know and hopefully we'regoing to see this slow change or
maybe hopefully it won't be soslow where healthcare
professionals start seeing, youknow, the benefits of more
holistic approaches to health.
Keith D. Terry (19:54):
Okay, so you've worked with.
You know.
This next question is morereally a I won't call it a
clinical question, but you'veworked with healthy individuals
and some people who are reallyfacing serious health conditions
and I'm going to assume thatgetting out of nature, can you
talk about the impact on bothgroups, the healthy group and
the sick group?
Dr. Gayle Byck (20:15):
Sure.
So one thing I do is I do amonthly nature program for an
adult day program.
So those are people withdementia and we're looking.
When you're working with peoplewith dementia, you're looking
to create moments of joy forthem and to help keep them calm
and busy and interested, right.
So you know, every month when Ido this program there's some
(20:36):
great moment of joy that happens.
You know, one month this guycame up to me who has dementia
and he said you know, thisprogram has made me remember my
childhood home and there weretwo trees I could see from my
bedroom window when I was a kidand I'm so happy just
remembering that, you know whenhis face was lit up and that
probably changed his whole day.
(20:56):
Or I did a program for peoplewith dementia and their spouses
or care partners, whoever itcame with.
And one guy all of a suddensaid I went to Yellowstone once
and his wife, who looked sotired when she got there, just
lit up and she said you rememberthat trip we took.
And he said yeah, and theystarted reminiscing about it and
(21:19):
for that couple it just changedtheir day, right, it gave her
some hope, it gave her joy andhim joy too.
So those are a couple examples.
I once took a mother and adaughter out on a walk and the
daughter was probably around 30.
And the mother had told me thatthe daughter had severe anxiety
, severe ADHD, some other mentalhealth issues and I couldn't
(21:42):
quite tell at first, like if shewas there because she wanted to
be or just kind of appeasingher mom.
But we talked at the beginning,we did the meditation, I gave
the first invitation and she ranout into the woods like off
trail and just with like a lotof excitement and when it was
time to come back and do oursharing circle we had to wait
(22:05):
for her for a bit and finallyshe came and she just was
bursting with excitement andshe's like this was the most
incredible experience, she said.
My whole life I have feltjudged by everyone.
And I've been worried about whatpeople think.
And she goes and you know what?
The trees aren't judging me,the trees are just letting me be
here with them.
(22:26):
And I have never felt so free.
And the whole experience wentlike that.
She just couldn't stop talkingand sharing the mother, her
mouth was just wide open thewhole time.
She couldn't believe all thather daughter was just telling us
.
And I am not a therapist and Iam, you know, very careful not
to act in any way like atherapist in those kinds of
(22:49):
situations.
I just listen, you know, andwhat most people want is someone
to listen to them, right?
Keith D. Terry (22:55):
And yes.
Dr. Gayle Byck (22:55):
Yes.
So she, she poured out herheart, literally poured out her
heart to her mom and I, and atthe end she said thank you,
you've given me a new tool in mycoping toolbox.
You know, I now have a newstrategy.
I never before thought I couldgo into nature and it would make
me feel this way, so I thoughtthat that was an incredibly
(23:17):
powerful experience.
I also one time had a group oftherapists out on a walk and a
woman who wasn't part of thegroup came up and asked me what
are you guys doing?
And I told her about it and shestarted sobbing and she said
that her mother had just passedaway a couple of weeks ago and
she's like I feel like I needthis.
(23:38):
And then we started talking abit Again.
The patient advocacy reallyhelped me be there for her
because of my knowledge andexperience with how to deal with
that situation, and she askedme for a hug and she said thank
you.
This made me feel better.
And then, at the end of theforest bathing walk, the woman
who had organized it came up andasked me what was going on with
(24:01):
me and that woman, and when Itold her, she started crying
also and she said that she'sbeen caring for both of her
parents and it's so hard and shejust started crying and said
she needed a hug and it was likejust this feel good kind of
thing.
But you just never know whatpeople are going through and how
just this experience mightchange them.
(24:22):
Being in nature.
Somehow it makes you more openand vulnerable, I think.
Keith D. Terry (24:27):
I understand and I heard you when you said
you're not a therapist, you'recareful not to do that, but I
hate using the word but, but Iwill in this case.
And you are a therapist becauseyou're helping folks out there
with nature.
So how do you approach?
You know, you've explained whatforest bathing is.
Now help my listeners to kindof.
You know, put us in a session.
(24:48):
You know I come.
Do I make an appointment withyou?
You know how do.
How do I?
How do I go and engage in thisprocess?
Dr. Gayle Byck (24:58):
So when people reach out to me, I've been
booking these forest bathingexperiences as generally through
groups or organizations nothaving programs where people can
just sign up individually.
I've had some people reach outabout individual sessions, so
generally it's like a work group, a networking group, a family
(25:19):
you know something like that.
Keith D. Terry (25:20):
It's an organized entity that's
coordinating this.
Dr. Gayle Byck (25:23):
But also, people have been reaching out on their
own.
I've had to do a couple ofreschedules with these two
people.
But a daughter reached outbecause her mom has ALS and is
in a wheelchair and they'relooking for like different
experiences that she can haveand still feel alive.
You know, and connected We'vehad, she can't handle the really
(25:44):
hot days, so that's why we'vehad to do some rescheduling.
But you know, so it can be that.
Or it can be you sign upthrough your local library and
they bring me in, or you know,your business brings me in to do
a program.
Keith D. Terry (25:56):
OK, OK, that's.
That's wonderful that you haveto be in.
Is there a minimum?
Wonderful that you have to bein the.
Is there a minimum timeframeyou have to be engaged in nature
versus or maximum?
How do you, how do youprescribe this?
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:07):
So the research says that, like you know, an
hour and a half to two hours ormore is ideal, but not per day,
like in a week, say, like oneone time that they talk about,
like to drop in, to really likeget that relaxation can take an
hour and a half, but I've seenit happen much quicker and the
(26:29):
truth is most of us don't havean hour and a half or two hours,
you know, or more, at a time,but we could get benefits from a
few minutes, you know.
Have you ever just needed towalk around the block to clear
your mind?
Keith D. Terry (26:41):
You know what's interesting is?
You know, I think people havethe time.
They don't make the time.
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:47):
Well, that's a good point.
Keith D. Terry (26:48):
Because you know .
I think this, because you know.
One of the questions I wasgoing to ask you is do you think
our modern society, especiallyhere in the United States, is
making people sick?
Dr. Gayle Byck (26:58):
I do.
I saw a statistic that, onaverage, kids have less than
seven minutes a day of outdoorplaytime.
Keith D. Terry (27:07):
Seven minutes yeah.
Dr. Gayle Byck (27:09):
I read that just the other day.
I've seen stats that 93% ofAmericans are in.
93% of our time is spentindoors and other cultures
aren't like that.
I was very lucky that I got togo to Norway at the beginning of
March and Norway and theScandinavian countries have a
(27:29):
concept called free loose live.
I always have to pause when Isay it, so I say it right and
basically it means the joy ofoutdoor living.
And think about those are.
Those are cold countries, coldclimate countries and people are
outside every day regularly andit's just part of their culture
that they do this year round.
That if you want to leave workearly on Friday and you tell
(27:52):
your boss free, loose, live, andyour boss says, have a good
weekend.
You know and like it's just,it's part of their culture and
they're healthy and they'rehappier.
You look at those studies ofwhat are the happiest countries
of the world and a lot of themare those cold climate countries
.
Keith D. Terry (28:07):
but they have a and someone who's seen Dr Gail
Bick before using forced bathingand after, what's your
therapeutic approach for caringfor you?
(28:29):
You're helping folks on thehealth advocacy side, which you
already said it was stressful,and now you're helping people on
the forest bathing side, whichcould be stressful because
people are new to it A lot ofquestions and expecting maybe a
microwave approach that they'llbe healed in 30 seconds or 30
(28:50):
minutes.
Take me through what you do foryou.
Dr. Gayle Byck (28:53):
I like to get outside and I've from the forest
bathing.
I've pushed myself to getoutside on those cold days where
I used to.
It used to be easy to say youknow it's freezing out, but I'm,
you know, bundling up andgetting out and it can.
It's really made a difference.
Keith D. Terry (29:11):
So are you walking.
Dr. Gayle Byck (29:12):
Walking.
Yeah, you can just walk.
I just walk in the neighborhood.
You know there was one day thiswinter it was freezing and I
just woke up in a miserable mood.
You know there was one day thiswinter it was freezing and I
just woke up in a miserable mood.
You know how that happenssometimes.
And I said, I just bundled upand I just took a walk over to
the park nearby where there's alittle creek and I saw these
ducks playing in the water and Iwatched them for a few minutes
(29:35):
and I just was so happy fromwatching the ducks and then I
walked back and I felt like anew person and it totally
changed the rest of my day.
So I'm really kind of leaningin more to getting outside, even
on the days where it's not socomfortable, temperature wise.
Keith D. Terry (29:52):
You're answering all my questions because I was
going to ask you can you give mea specific story about a time
when getting out in naturechanged someone's circumstance
and you just described it.
You woke up in a bad mood andvoila Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:04):
And so sometimes even just going out like a lot
of us work from home now andwork outside.
Take your laptop outside and dosome work there and get some
fresh air.
Keith D. Terry (30:14):
What kind of resistance?
Or well, let's, let's, let'ssay favorable.
What kind of?
Are you finding that Endeavor'shealth and the hospitals and
the healthcare systems areembracing this, or is it
insurance driven?
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:29):
I would say I haven't gone after either of
those approaches.
Okay, just been kind of puttingit out there to the general
public.
Keith D. Terry (30:37):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:38):
Yeah, I was going to say something and I
forgot.
Keith D. Terry (30:41):
Well, no, the only reason I was going to ask
is I would assume that peoplepay for this, or is it totally
volunteer?
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:47):
that you do.
No, I do have a fee.
Keith D. Terry (30:50):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (30:51):
Again, a lot of times, because it might be
through a library or seniorcenter or business or something,
people aren't payingindividually.
And I still have a lot ofprograms with the Cook County
Forest Preserves that I've beendoing.
Keith D. Terry (31:04):
So people aren't paying individually, it's more
the organization paying me atthis point, I understand and I
guess I see value in utility andI would assume that the ramp up
rate or the usage rate wouldincrease significantly if both
of the entities that I mentionedhealth care providers and
(31:24):
insurance would back this.
Are you?
You haven't approached it.
Dr. Gayle Byck (31:28):
You've given me a great idea.
I honestly don't see insurancecovering it.
Just that's a whole otherconversation.
Our health insurance system.
Keith D. Terry (31:36):
Yeah, it sure is .
Dr. Gayle Byck (31:38):
It's a really interesting idea to approach
some of the big hospital systems, healthcare systems in our area
about how to offer this as awellness program.
Keith D. Terry (31:49):
And companies too.
I mean, I tend to think thatpeople are under stress, you
know, and taking a walk, if youremember, during COVID, a lot of
people got outside and walked,they walked in it.
I have some really dear friendsand, and you know, they got out
and walked miles every daybecause who wanted to stay in
(32:11):
the house all the time?
Dr. Gayle Byck (32:12):
Right.
Keith D. Terry (32:13):
They had their masks on, but they walked and
and and I knew one person thatwas incredibly uptight that they
were calmer after they were out, and so I kind of liked that
that.
Dr. Gayle Byck (32:25):
You know, I once took a team of a work team on a
walk and there were a bunch ofwomen who were like young
mothers.
They had little kids and youknow just the experience.
My kids are older now, but whenI had to get them up and ready
for school and myself ready forwork and everyone out the door,
it's pretty stressful, you know.
(32:45):
Those mornings are high stressand everyone's yelling at each
other and one of the women atthe end said she goes.
This experience made me realizethat if I could just get myself
outside for 10 minutes eachmorning before I wake the kids
up, I think the whole morningthing would be calmer and the
whole day would be better forall of us.
So that that's like tied into,like how can we?
(33:08):
We help people working, youknow, get, have less stress and
have the time to do this?
Wouldn't it be great ifemployers would say like all
right, in the middle of the daywe're going to have a 10 minute
or 15 minute, you know whateverbreak where everyone can go
outside and there's a conceptcalled sit spot where you just
(33:28):
go outside and you sit and yougive yourself permission to do
nothing for the 10 minutes.
And that's really like we dothis on the forest bathing walks
and some people look at me likewhat, you want me to sit and do
nothing?
Yeah, I want you to sit and donothing, and so it's hard for
people to kind of get used to it.
(33:48):
But then you come back and youjust feel refreshed and you have
feel re-energized and you'remore creative.
I mean, at the end of that workgroup walk I mentioned people.
They were brainstorming abouthow they could do things.
It was a group that, like theyown and manage a lot of shopping
malls Like how could they bringmore nature experiences to the
(34:10):
malls for people who come or forthe people who work there?
And all of a sudden theirbrains are going and they're
thinking of all these thingsbecause they just had this quiet
time like to calm their minds.
Keith D. Terry (34:21):
And you know well, I'm going to put some
people in my family on blast.
I have people in my family onblast, have people in my family
that don't like to go outside,and I think they're crazy for it
, and so I call them naturehesitant.
Okay, and I'm glad you're goingthere.
So how do you deal with thosetypes of people who are nature
(34:45):
hesitant.
Dr. Gayle Byck (34:46):
Sometimes I get nature, hesitant people on the
walks and maybe they were kindof coerced into it by a spouse
or something like that andthey'll tell.
Like I took a group out onSunday and one of the guys said
to me because I'm an indoorhusband, I was just forced to be
here.
And you know what my approachis like, I'm just glad you're
(35:08):
here experiencing this.
And you know what my approachis like, I'm just glad you're
here experiencing this.
And you know, like one of theinvitations I often try to do is
about touch, getting people toactually touch the trees, the
plants, the flowers.
Keith D. Terry (35:18):
How do you Because?
Dr. Gayle Byck (35:19):
well, the you know, the tactile response, the
sensory stimulation is soimportant to all of our
well-being, and so I'm like justtrying to get people to touch
things.
And nature has folks they don'twant to touch things and nature
has folks they don't want totouch, like they're nervous.
So I said don't touch, justlook, you know.
Again it's like do whateverworks for you in that moment.
We're just glad you're hereoutside.
(35:40):
And hopefully, then theyexperience it and enjoy it and
want to do it more.
Keith D. Terry (35:45):
I understand.
Is it better to you know, let'stalk about the sensory part.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Is it better to just take awalk, or should you walk in and
use your sensory senses?
Dr. Gayle Byck (35:58):
I think using your senses is great.
You know so often when we walkwe're listening to a podcast or
talking on the phone with afriend or music or we're with a
friend and we're and we'rewalking and we're not really
taking it all in, and or we'rewalking for exercise.
Right, you're just powerwalking, and so part of the what
we do in forest bathing is youare just slowing down, you're
(36:21):
taking it all in and it's reallymagical.
It's just a magical experience,like for your senses, and.
But I'd say walking is betterthan not walking and, as we
talked about before, like beingin your, in your backyard or on
a patio with just one plant, isbetter than not being out
(36:42):
outside, even though the forestis probably best, you know.
So someone once said to me inthe years ago don't let the
perfect be the enemy of the good.
You know, whatever you, youknow it doesn't have to be ideal
to get these benefits.
Keith D. Terry (36:56):
That's brilliantly said.
Don't let the perfect be theenemy of the good.
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:00):
And there's something also called awe walks.
I learned this from an ecogerontologist out in California
and that's just the idea that,like, go on a walk and find
something that you can be in aweof Okay.
You know.
So she did a video where shewas in a grocery store parking
lot and there was a tree and she, like, just sat by the tree and
just to illustrate this, andthe science behind awe is very
(37:24):
similar to the science behindnature, like it, it makes you
less stressed, it makes you feelless anxious, it just gives you
a sense of connection to things, to the world.
Keith D. Terry (37:35):
Now for those kids that are in the urban areas
, where it's a concrete jungle,is being outside in the city
different or the same as beingin?
For I mean, it's probably acrazy question, but is it?
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:47):
Right, so you have to adapt to what you have
available to you.
Keith D. Terry (37:50):
Okay.
Dr. Gayle Byck (37:51):
Right.
So again, that's where the onetree comes into play.
Or, just you know, finding alittle park near you where you
can enjoy some greenery.
Keith D. Terry (38:01):
So the key is greenery.
I got it.
I get it now.
It's not.
It's not outside, it's beingconnected, like gardening.
You know it's not outside, it'sbeing connected, or even like
gardening.
Dr. Gayle Byck (38:08):
You know, plant some stuff in your yard, on your
deck, whatever you have.
There's a bacteria in the soilwhich, when we get our hands in
there, it improves our mood, itcan improve our cognition.
So, like, get your hands inthere and garden.
You know, there's so many waysto bring nature in.
Like, I love being in theforest, I love being in the
(38:29):
mountains, I love being in themountains.
Keith D. Terry (38:31):
We don't have any mountains in Chicago, so I'm
not getting to the mountains,you know.
Dr. Gayle Byck (38:34):
But, like you just kind of find what works for
you and it.
You know, and it's definitelytougher in urban areas, but I
think what we're hopefully goingto see is more urban planning,
more design using somethingcalled biophilic design, which
is just a way of trying to bringnature in.
(38:55):
So like, how can we bring inmore natural light into our
office?
Can we have green walls?
Keith D. Terry (39:01):
You know, I think it'll help some of the
violence happening in some ofthe inner cities and all across
America.
I mean, it's just.
Everybody seems to be sostressed out on everything.
A couple more questions for youis what do you think are some
of the obstacles keeping peoplefrom seeking this kind of
healing?
Is it because they don't knowabout it, or are there other
(39:24):
obstacles?
Dr. Gayle Byck (39:25):
I think some of it is not knowing about it.
I definitely spend a lot oftime in my intro and overview at
each sports bathing programtalking about the health
benefits, and I can see thelight bulbs going off in
people's heads.
You know like, oh, I'm not justout here to hug trees.
You know, or like do some weirdhippy dippy, new age kind of
(39:46):
thing, like Like this is real,there's science behind it, and
then you know that really seemsto like hook people in, is just
that understanding about whatnature does.
So I think education andawareness is important.
I also think something thatyou've been touching on is what
about the accessibility ofnature?
You know, if you're in urbanareas, you don't have nature as
(40:08):
we think about it.
So it's like kind of reframingwhat nature can I find?
What nature can I bring in, youknow, into my immediate world
so that it's accessible and mostnature is free?
You know, hopefully, like thecost issue goes out the window
because anyone can go find aplace, you know, along Lake
(40:28):
Michigan to walk.
Our forest preserves are free.
I was actually amazed to learnthat the Cook County forest
preserves are 11% of all theland in Cook County.
So we live in an area where,like, there's been a real
commitment to preserving nature.
I don't want to go off trackinto difficult areas, but I am
(40:48):
concerned about what the futureholds in terms of nature.
Keith D. Terry (40:52):
Well, tell me about that.
Dr. Gayle Byck (40:53):
Well, you know, there's all the climate change
issues, pollution, protectingour public lands, you know, from
development, that sort of thing.
Keith D. Terry (41:03):
I see, I see the impact on actual nature itself.
Yeah, I concur with you, and Ithink there are a lot of people
who do.
However, you know, some of thegovernments across the globe are
starting to shift theirso-called policies greenhouse
gases, things of that nature andso if we were to go the other
way, though, if people did adopta nature-based healing system,
(41:27):
just tell me pontificate for amoment.
10 years from now, what do youthink the outcome is for America
?
Dr. Gayle Byck (41:34):
I think we'd have people just a lot happier
and better placed mentally andphysically too.
You know the getting outsidehelps.
You want to move your body, andthen we talked about you know
the effect on the immune system.
But I think really to makechange, we need to get the young
people outside right so thatthey grow up appreciating nature
(41:57):
.
You know we could have a wholeshow talking about screens and
technology and safety issues asyou were also alluding to before
of being outside.
But you know just letting,making sure people know how good
they they can feel out innature and what it does for you.
I mean, a lot of times peoplewalk out of the walks and I'm
(42:18):
not pushing the climate issuesand the politics, but you feel
more connected to theenvironment and that makes you
want to take care of it.
So, like, how can you know?
How can we protect it?
And when people don't know allthis?
Like?
I took a group out yesterdayand one of the guys just
couldn't stop talking about howhe lived five minutes from the
(42:38):
forest preserve we were at andhe had never been there and he
couldn't stop talking about it'sso beautiful.
This is amazing.
I can't believe we can't.
I can't believe.
This is literally five minutesfrom my house and I don't do
this, you know.
And so it kind of woke him upto, you know, and I would call
him one of the nature hesitantones, you know, but like he was
(43:00):
just his mind blown about theexperience and about how there
was so much natural beauty righthere in the suburbs.
Keith D. Terry (43:07):
What do you think the impact of AI is going
to bring to forest bathing, ifanything?
Dr. Gayle Byck (43:14):
I'm not like that.
Up on AI, I'm trying to thinkabout how it could replace I
don't know.
I mean, I'm almost thinkingabout how, like a lot of these,
a lot of times, you can beindoors like a pel, a peloton
right, you can do a peloton bikeride and watching the video of
being in the forest I do thatyou know things like that I
(43:37):
don't know if that kind ofcounts under the ai thing, but
there could, I guess could bemore of that going on, but
you're not gonna get all thebenefits you know, you're.
You're not breathing in thefighting sides, you're not
touching the trees, fightingsides.
You're not touching the treesand everything and you're not.
It's just different.
Keith D. Terry (43:54):
And are you finding caregivers are embracing
force bathing?
Dr. Gayle Byck (43:58):
Yeah, I mean with the groups, the dementia
groups especially, like the,caregiving is probably one of
the, if not the hardest job outthere, right, and these people
are, they're underpaid andthey're doing a lot of work that
isn't appealing to a lot ofpeople, right, and they need a
lot of patience.
And so getting outside helpspeople who aren't well, as well
(44:22):
as their caregivers, because itprovides calm, a calming
environment, a calming activityfor both of them.
You know, and one of the thingsI'll do when I do programs more
for those groups is I'll givethem a handout at the end of
like 20 easy things you can dooutside, because, again, it's
like making sure people know,like you know, we could go
outside, we could make a birdfeeder, we could do leaf
(44:45):
rubbings.
You know we could paint rockslike all these simple things
that and you could do them withyour grandkids.
You know we could paint rockslike all these simple things
that and you could do them withyour grandkids.
Keith D. Terry (44:52):
You know it could be intergenerational.
Dr. Gayle Byck (44:54):
One of my favorite outcomes was a woman
came to one of my walks and shewas friends with someone I know,
so that's how this story gotback to me.
But she was doing a familyvacation two weeks later with
her kids and grandkids, and soshe did a modified forest bath
the first day and her teenagegrandkids loved it, and every
day she came up with anothernature activity for them to do
(45:17):
and they were able to connectand they had something to talk
about at dinner every night.
Okay, like she, you know, thatwas just.
That was a fun.
Outcome of what happened isthat she brought it to her
family.
Keith D. Terry (45:29):
Got it.
So my last question for you ifthis mic that you have in front
of you was your final chance toleave a message for the next
generation of caregivers, whatwould that message be?
As it relates to Forest Bailey.
Dr. Gayle Byck (45:41):
A message to caregivers.
Keith D. Terry (45:43):
Yeah or anyone, you pick the group.
Dr. Gayle Byck (45:45):
Well, I think to everyone is get outside.
You know, experience just allthe beauty we have out here,
give yourself a chance toconnect to nature, connect to
other people who are out thereand you know, let it, just let
yourself be.
(46:05):
You know, it's really comesdown to just learning how to be
present and mindful, and I thinkthat experiences we can have
with forest bathing can help usin our personal relationships as
well as professionally.
Just that learning to listen.
Right, you're listening to theforest, you're noticing things,
(46:26):
and when you listen to peopleand you notice people, they feel
good and you connect.
Keith D. Terry (46:32):
Well said.
Dr. Gayle Byck (46:33):
We need that, we need those connections.
Keith D. Terry (46:36):
Dr Gail Bick.
Thank you so much for being apart of the show.
You've shown us that healingdoesn't necessarily always come
from the inside, that it comesfrom outside as well.
Your work is a reminder thatsometimes the most powerful
medicine is the simplest, andthat is being outside, being
present, slowing down andconnecting to the world around
(46:57):
us.
Thanks for listening to theNext Big Thing.
I'm your host, keith D Terry.
If you've enjoyed this episodeand you'd like to support this
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating and areview.
To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on my
YouTube channel at Keith D Terry.
If you want to recommend aguest, please email me at info
(47:20):
at terryperformancegroupcom.
This has been produced by yourhost and Jade Productions.
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