The Hidden Cost of the Game: Football, Families & Life After the NFL

What really happens when the game ends — and the pain begins?

In this episode of The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry, Harvard researcher Dr. Alicia Whittington pulls back the curtain on the hidden cost of football. From college stadiums to the NFL, she exposes the human reality behind the glory — chronic pain, CTE fears, and the silent battles families fight long after the lights go out.

💡 You’ll learn:
 • Why 80% of former players live with daily pain and lose up to 10 years of health span
• How family legacy and race shape player health outcomes
• What the Football Players Health Study at Harvard is revealing about life after the game
• The real connection between body, brain, and belonging — and how change begins with awareness

🎙️ This isn’t about touchdowns. It’s about truth.

Whether you’re a fan, athlete, caregiver, or someone who simply loves the game, this conversation will make you rethink what football really costs — and what we can do about it.

🔔 Listen. Subscribe. Share.
Because understanding the truth is the next big thing.

Send us your thought on this episode.

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Keith D. Terry and JJaed Productions, LLC produced this episode. www.jjaedproductions.com

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast, The Next Big Thing.
I'm your host, Keith D.
Terry, a consultant, a coach,and a serial entrepreneur.
The mission here is to teach,inspire, and to motivate.
Today's episode is gonna be agood one.
We're gonna be talking football.
Football is the great Americanpastime.

(00:21):
Friday nights under the lights,Saturday stadiums packed with
students and alumni, and Sunday,of course, built for the pros.
For millions, it's more than agame.
It's identity, culture, and adream.
But here's the truth most peopledon't want to talk about.
When the clock hits zero and thecrowds go home, the story

(00:41):
doesn't end.
For many players, college andNFL alike, it's just the
beginning.
Behind the glory is pain.
I mean real unrelenting pain insome cases.
More than 80% of former playerslive with live with it every
single day, have faced serioussleep issues like sleep apnea.

(01:01):
Many struggle with joint damagethat makes basic movement a
battle.
And then there's what you'veheard is CTE, a word that hovers
over us like a cloud storm, overlocker rooms and living rooms
alike.
One in three former players fearthey're living with it right
now.
These are just the statistics.
But you have to remember, theseare sons, husbands, fathers,

(01:24):
brothers, and behind every oneof them is a family trying to
hold it together.
Today's episode is more thantouchdown.
It's about what happens when thelights go out and the cameras
turn away and the game stops.
My guest today is Dr.
Alicia Whittington.
She's made this mission herlife's work, or I would say her
life's point.

(01:44):
Let me introduce my guest.
Dr.
Elisa Whittington is theassistant director of engagement
and health equity research forthe football player health study
at Harvard University.
She has also serves as theco-investigator for Family
Experience Managing FootballLives.
She brings a unique lens to thehuman cost of the game.

(02:07):
Dr.
Winnington, welcome to the nextbig thing.
How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Thank you very much.
I'm doing well.
How are you?

SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
I'm doing great.
So I've been looking forward tothis.
Before we get into the work,let's talk about you.
Where'd you grow up?
A little bit about you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
So I grew up in St.
Louis, Missouri, number seven ofeight children.
And who I am, I define myself asmany things, whether it's being
a musician, because I studymusic for most of my life,
violin, violin, piano.
Um, I'm a scientist, I'm areader, I'm a crafter, and I am

(02:43):
a cool nerd.
But at the core of who I am, Ilabel myself as a storyteller.
Okay.
And one of the things abouttelling stories is that when you
look at data and when youconduct research, the science
tells a story.
And ever since I was a littlekid, um, and we can get into

(03:04):
that in a little bit, I wasinspired by family history to
buckle down in terms ofacademics and everything I was
working on.

SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Well, I didn't know that storytelling was a passion.
And and frankly, well, we'll getinto that.
I'll I'll tell the folks thesurprise at the end of our
conversation.
But I didn't know that you werea storyteller.
And what I find fascinating isthat people who can do that can
take what they think is hard,and that's science, and and and
tell a story about it.

(03:35):
So that's that's prettyfascinating.

SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
You know, you as we were setting this up, you were
talking about the year of 1946.
Yes.
Now, if if I look at you, I knowyou were not born in 1946.

SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
No, so 33 years before I got here.

SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
So tell me the significance of 1946.

SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Yes, thank you so much.
So I just describe myself asmany things.

SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
And a lot of that stems from family history.
And when I was a little kid,hey, just a second here.
When I was a little girl growingup in St.
Louis, I was very observant.
And I remember asking myparents, like, why don't I have
a grandfather?
Like, what happened to yourdads?
And knowing my parents is toknow that they didn't sugarcoat

(04:20):
what happened.
And what I learned was that bothof their fathers died in 1946.
And I was really curious aboutthat because my parents didn't
meet each other until like the1960 or so in St.
Louis.
And they both grew up indifferent parts of Mississippi
that are about 115 miles apart.

SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
So to be clear, both of your grandfathers died in
1946.
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
I didn't know that.
And what are the commonalities,both black men and Jim Crow and
lack of access to adequatehealth care?
Um, and so when hearing abouthow they died, um, I was really
upset.
And I said, you know, thatshould not have happened.
I want to grow up and dosomething to make sure that that

(05:07):
doesn't happen again.
And so that's when I reallystarted focusing on academics.
I mean, I started doing reallywell in school.
And then there's a few otherstories along the way that uh,
you know, jumpstarted a fewother things.
But that was the impetus for uhmotivating me to go on this
journey.
Okay.

(05:28):
And recently, 1946 came upagain.
And if I can just share thatwith you.

SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Yes, please share.

SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
So, as I mentioned, going on this journey, and I was
so interested in science, and Ithought perhaps I would become a
surgeon.
And I didn't realize that I wasmeant to go in a different
direction.
And along the way, when I wasabout 14 years old, one of my
brothers made it to an NFLroster.
And when I say made it to aroster, that is not to diminish

(05:56):
any of the just hard work thatit took to get there.
But as a sibling, I wasn't thatinterested in football.
However, to know my mom is toknow that she would put together
these incredible coolers withall the snacks and stuff.
And she used to make thesecrumble popcorn balls where she
would, you know, yeah.
I don't need to get into all ofthat, but that's why I made it a

(06:19):
priority.
Yeah, that's why I made it apriority to go to the games and
I'd sit next to her.
And then I realized that mybrother was doing a thing on the
field.
He was being the leader.
And all of a sudden, lots ofcoaches from around the country
came to the house, and I noticedthat my mom was bringing out the
fine china.
And I was like, okay, we'venever dined on this.

(06:40):
And I didn't understand what itmeant then, but it changed the
course of everything.
So my brother had multiplecollege scholarship offers, and
then he went to college, playedfootball, went through that
process, and then makes it tothe NFL.

SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
And that was that tangible example of hard work
really does pay off.

SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
And I remember just for clarity, you were around 14
around this time?

SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yes, when he first made it.
Yeah.
And then I turned 15, and thenmaybe I believe it was his
either first or his second yearin the NFL.
Okay.
He came home from the AFCChampionships, and I just knew
we were gonna go to a SuperBowl.
No hard feelings, I think.
That's 20 years ago.
But anyway, um, he came homeafter losing the AFC

(07:31):
Championship, and I couldn'tunderstand why he was so happy
in that moment.
But he was shining the wheels onhis brand new BMW.

unknown (07:40):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
And I was just sitting there looking at him,
and he looked at me, said,Little sis, just keep working
hard.
Everything is going to pay offfor you.
And those memories just, youknow, kept me, you know, in the
game, kept me motivatedacademically.
But what I didn't know is thatthe journey I would go on would
lead me to Harvard, well, backto Harvard as a research

(08:02):
scientist, looking at health andwellness of former NFL players.
So back to 1946.
So as a football player's healthstudy, I uh am very fortunate to
work with an incredible teamwith so many experts that really
are devoted, dedicated to thiswork.
And one of the aspects of thestudy that I lead is health

(08:23):
equity research.
And just to share with youraudience and viewers, health
equity is achieved when everyonehas the ability to live their
best lives in terms of health,to achieve optimal health.
But there's this thing called ahealth disparity, health
inequities that obstruct thatpath.
And so looking back at 1946,when my grandfathers couldn't

(08:46):
get the health care they needed,and how those stories and
hearing about the other storiesin our family um of just
injustice and health care.

SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
So let's let's let's stay on that journey for a
second before because we'regonna have plenty of time to get
into the into the to the workthat you're currently doing.

SPEAKER_01 (09:09):
But I have to loop back to 1946 with that too, but
flip in it.

SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
At what age did you make the connection that 1946
was gonna make wasn't just aninteresting day?
Walk up me through that journey.

SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
I was 45.
45.
Okay.
Or almost 45.
So um a couple years ago, myteam and I were working on a
paper.
And prior to that, back in 2020,we published at the Football
Players' Health Study our firstpaper looking at health
disparities.
And they were five generalhealth outcomes.

(09:43):
And former players indicated umtheir experiences with these
five different health outcomes.
So indicators of chronic pain,anxiety, depression.
Um, and these five generalhealth outcomes have an impact
on day-to-day life.
So your quality of life.
And what we found was that theblack former players across the

(10:05):
board were reporting higherrates of health issues in these
five areas.
And this is what we define as ahealth disparity differences in
health.
And we were really curious aboutwell, what could be driving
these differences?
And so once we saw what wasgoing on, we added a few other
factors into the equation.

SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
So well, before we go there, I I don't I want to I
want to stay on you and therevelation because you said
something pretty powerful that alot of people don't get.
You were able to make aconnection to your family
legacy, your family, yourgrandparents.
Was there any tension betweenyour career path and your
calling?
And, you know, kind of what youthought young.

(10:47):
We kind of want to go that way.
You said surgery.
You want to be a surgeon.

SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
And so let's let's talk about that tension.
You know, from 14 to 45, thereare a number of years in
between.
Can you reflect on on thattension between the two?

SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Well, so as you mentioned, we tend to be a
little different when we'reyounger and not as wise.
I like to share that I am areformed destination syndromer.
So, destination syndrome, Idon't even know if it's an
official thing, but is when youdon't stop to smell the roses
and you're focused on that nextthing, and you're not in the

(11:24):
moment learning the lessons thatthis thing is teaching you right
now.

SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Well said.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
And there's a lecture that I give, and it's
about the journey to discoveringmy purpose.
And one of the first slides is amap of the United States.
It has a star on each city whereI've lived and arrows indicating
direction and magnitude, and itlooks ridiculous.
And whenever I put it up on thescreen in front of an audience,
I ask them, what do you thinkthis is?

(11:50):
And some of them are like, Idon't know.
Like, this is my life.

SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
And it doesn't make sense when you look at the
visual, but then when I get intowhat happened along the way, and
I told them, well, I always tellthem that the big uh takeaway
from the map is that each ofthose stars, I learned something
or gathered some sort ofexperience or skill set or

(12:16):
colleagues that brought me orled me to my purpose.
It wasn't until I was in NewOrleans and I was in my last
semester of coursework in my PhDprogram.
I was taking like five classesand working three jobs.
You know how students do.

SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
And I do.

SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Always doing too much.
And on my way to class, I brokemy foot.
Wow.
And that's how I met mydissertation advisor.
I was actually planning on doinga completely different
dissertation.
I was gonna study agriculturaleconomics and looking at the
food supply because, you know,when you look at just
agriculture being a prominentindustry in the south, and then

(12:55):
looking at my own family historyand how healthy people are
because they grew up on thefarm.
Like, why is it that, you know,the southern states tend to be
ranked last in almosteverything, all of the health
metrics, the measures, and butalong came this broken foot.

SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
Now, did you do break your foot running
something spectacular?

SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
No.
Um, at the time, I would justmake up stories and tell people
that, you know, I want to fight.
They're like, no, you didn't.
We know you didn't fight anyone.
But honestly, it was just one ofthose days where nothing
spectacular was happening.
Um, I had on cute shoes and theywere wedges, kind of high heeled
a little bit.
And you know anything about thestreets of New Orleans, they're

(13:36):
not exactly level.
And I just wasn't payingattention.
I did not see the dip in thecurve.
And so my foot inverted, smackedthe pavement, but I was holding
my laptop and I was so focusedon saving my laptop that I
didn't care about anything else.
My glasses flew off, and then mylaptop still flew out of my

(13:58):
hand.
Yeah.
And um, when I went down on theground, I was like, oh my gosh,
this is so embarrassing.
I hope no one saw that.
But then I heard someone yellacross the way, Are you okay?
And then I looked up and saw twowomen running to me.
And it was just so embarrassing.
And they said, Well, let us helpyou to class.
And the minute that I put myfoot on the ground, I said, I

(14:20):
can't go.
I think it's broken.
And that's the first time I hadever broken a bone.
Very distinct, stinging feelingthat you don't forget.

SPEAKER_02 (14:31):
Broken bones.
It is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
To make it to 30 years old, and I had never
broken a bone, I was like,really?
And this would happen when Ihave all these things to do.
But I say that the good Lord satme down to show me my purpose
because I was always so focusedon the next thing.
And what happened was I wentover to the sports medicine
clinic at Tulane.
Okay, and I was just so ashamed.

(14:54):
And that's where I got mycrutches, my boots, yeah, x-rays
and everything.
And then when I went home, Isaid, you know what?
I can't have a worse day.
Let me just check my email.
And in my email, there was aninvitation to this event
happening in New Orleans.
And it was the NFL's communityhealth on mental health
awareness.
And they were hosting this inconjunction with the Satcher

(15:15):
Health and Leadership Instituteat the Morehouse School of
Medicine.
Okay, I said, you know what?
Let me go to this and see ifthere's anything I can learn.
And, you know, because mybrother's uh from a football
family, as I mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
Life is slowing you down and you're paying
attention.

SPEAKER_01 (15:29):
Yes.
And so back then I caught a cabto the hotel where it was
happening because I couldn'twalk there, even though it was
right there in downtown NewOrleans.
And so when I hobbled in, and alot of people remember me from
that event when I sat down and Ihad the program in my hand and I
opened it up and I was deeplyintrigued.
And let me tell you why.

(15:50):
Please do.
My doctor was on the panel.
I didn't know he had anything todo with writing head injury
policies in Louisiana and likeall this really cool work that
he's done in sports medicine andcontinues to do.
And then everyone on the panel Ihad either a personal or
professional connection to.
So that was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
And then the former surgeon general and you didn't
know this before going to theevent.

SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
But the really cool thing is that one of my
professors showed up and hegoes, Alicia, have you met the
surgeon, Surgeon General?
And I said, No, but I would loveto.
And he introduced me to him.
And the surgeon general said,Well, you're from a football
family.
I'll make sure that all of theformer players introduce
themselves tonight.
When I got home, I called my momand I was like, Oh my gosh, mom,

(16:37):
I met all these people who're socool.
But I didn't think that therewould be any follow-up.
However, the following day, Ihad to go to school for a
department meeting.

SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
And my professor came over to me, Dr.
Colbertson, and he said, Alicia,I need to talk to you.
And this was like right beforeour meeting.
And I was like, oh my gosh, am Iin trouble?
What did I do?
And so I could barely focus onthe meeting.
But afterwards, I went and foundhim.
And I'm standing there with mycrutches.
And I said, Okay, you need totalk to me?
And he said, uh, yes.
And then he asked me, he said,How did the rest of the event go

(17:08):
last night?
I said, Oh, I was great.
I met a lot of people.
And then he looked at me with avery serious face and said, You
know, you should tap into thatresource for your dissertation.
And to know me is to know I'm alittle stubborn.
And then with destinationsyndrome combined, I looked at
him and said, No, that's notwhat I'm planning to do.
And then he said, Alicia, Idon't think you understand.

(17:29):
Like you are the student thatcan pull this off.
And he just tried to convince mein that moment.
But he was being resistant.
And I was not convinced, but Iwanted to just, you know, end
the conversation.
And I said, okay, fine.
If I do this, will you be mycommittee chair?
And he said, sure, absolutely.

(17:50):
And in that moment, I was justthinking, like, wow, you know,
when you go through experiencesin life, a lot of times you'll
experience a lot of no's,hesitation.
Really?
He saw something.
And so what I ended up doing, mynext doctor's appointment, and
you know, when you break yourfoot, it's never at a convenient
time.
I totally needed a pedicure.

(18:11):
And so I'm sitting in theappointment and I had my foot
propped up.
Okay.
And I started asking my doctor,Dr.
Stewart, questions about theevent.
And then I was asking himspecific questions about the
transition from the NFL.
And I was asking those questionswith my brothers in mind, with
family, with friends who'veplayed in the NFL in mind.

(18:34):
And Dr.
Stewart looked at me and said,Alicia, hold on a second.

SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
He left the room, the exam room, and came back
with two other people.
And we had this imprompturesearch meeting with my foot
propped up, needing a pedicure.
And Dr.
Stewart looked at me and hesaid, keep meeting with me.
And I did.
And then one day when I met withhim, he said, Alicia, here are
two data sources that we havethat you can work with for your

(18:59):
dissertation.
And so what I ended up usingwere data on high school
football players.
So in 2011, Louisiana passed theYouth Concussion Act.
And as part of one of theireducation initiatives, they
wanted to see, well, what dohigh school football actually
multiple sports, what do theyknow about concussions?

(19:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Yeah, their knowledge and is this the first
time that a state had done anykind of concussion study?

SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
So when I first started reading the literature,
um, I was looking at uh evenpolicy papers that looked at the
number of states.
And so what I learned was thatthe moms have been incredible
advocates in this space.
There's a young athlete inWashington state who was injured

(19:51):
in a game, permanently injured.
And then the momentum built fromthere.
And I believe when I firststarted my dissertation, 27
states have some form of youthconcussion legislation.
But now all 50 states in theDistrict of Columbia have some
form of concussion.

SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
Lisa, I have one final question before we get
into the There's another thing.

SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Can I just add a couple more things?

SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Yeah, please, please.

SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Oh, um when I went home after that initial doctor's
appointment where he said keepmeeting with me, I started
reading all, I mean, probablyhundreds of papers on the
history of sports injuries andjust concussions, just all these
things, right?
And then I noticed that I waslosing sleep.

(20:38):
And I said, you know what?
This is interesting.
I think I love this, and I thinkthis is my calling.
And uh, I would call my brothersand ask them different questions
about football, and it turnedinto lots of fun jokes.
So, like with a proposaldefense, with a dissertation
defense, one of my brotherswould call me and ask if I was

(21:00):
working on my agility drills.
I'm like, no, different types ofdrills, but not those.

SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
Since we're gonna end the human part of this
conversation, if you could talkto your grandfathers today, what
would you want them to knowabout you, the work you do?

SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
I would want them to know, number one, that I love
them.
Um, and number two, that Iappreciate everything they did
because even though they neverhad the opportunity to meet me,
I know that I descend from them.
And I remember writing a storyum about one of them, and I

(21:40):
wrote it from what I imagine hisuh perspective of his fatal bout
with appendicitis, uh, mygrandfather, Suean Whittington.
And my professor, because I Iwrote this while in the program
at Harvard and one of myfavorite classes called Illness
Narratives.
And so before I got into theactual story, one of the things

(22:03):
that I said that struck myprofessor, I said, you know, I'm
his granddaughter.
I imagine that, you know, myperceptions, my imagination has
to be somewhat similar to his.
And then I called my dad and Iasked him specific questions
about like that time of theyear, with it being right after
the holiday season and how hehad just sold, I forget what

(22:24):
year it was, maybe in 1936Plymouth.
And to just, you know, hearabout the everyday human things
that were happening.
And then to know that numberone, they never sold him up once
he got back to the house, well,got to the hospital.
Um, and it was too late.
And he never finished theproject that he was working on.
He was working on the porch.

(22:44):
And I think a lot about thattoo, because as humans, we
procrastinate.
And I do my best to, you know,carry things to the finish line
is a reminder that, you know,time is precious and do what you
can while you can.
Well said.
I did not get their height.
I hope I got some of their otherattributes.

(23:08):
And I would tell them that umthey left behind wonderful
families that I'm so proud to bea part of.

SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
Now we're gonna we're gonna get into the the
work you do, and we're gonnatalk a little bit about the
game.
And what makes you veryinteresting, you were the
sibling of a ball professionalfootball player, and you work in
NFL football right now.
If people don't know, theyshould actually go and visit
your website because there's alot of great data there that

(23:36):
gives a perspective on research.
And so, you know, my initialquestion is this when people
think about the NFL, you know,they picture bright lights,
contracts, fame.
Let's step back.
What's missing from that picturefrom your perspective?
Because you saw it from a numberof different angles.

SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yes.
How much time do you have?
No, just so a few things.
When a sibling makes it to theNFL and growing up in the same
house, same parents, and inscience, and this is you know
how it intertwines withstorytelling.
Yes, there's this thing calledsocial determinants of health,

(24:19):
yes, which is defined by thenon-medical factors that do have
an impact on your health.
And so that can be zip code, thewhere you were born, where you
live, where you play, whereyou're educated, where you
worship, all those things.
And scientists estimate thatthose determinants, um, and keep
in mind, they can be intervened.
Many of them are modifiable,that they estimate that social

(24:43):
determinants of health areresponsible for up to 50% of
what happens to your health.

SPEAKER_00 (24:48):
Hmm.
Okay.
Do say more.

SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Yeah.
And so growing up in the samehousehold where both of my
parents from Mississippi grew upfarming, my dad always had a
garden in the back yard.
And we grew up lean meats, 85%vegetables on our plates and
things like that.
And my mom was so diligent.
I remember being a little girland just playing.

(25:14):
And my mom would say, Okay, comeover, it's time to take your
vitamin.
And I didn't realize what shewas, you know, preparing us for.
Drink more water.
Oh, eat more vegetables beforeyou get a second helping of
meat.
Because you know, as kids, wejust love to go for it.
Yeah.
And so my mother and my fatherpouring that into us and
focusing on education and thenthe religious aspect as well,

(25:39):
our faith is what grounds us andreally keeps us together as a
family.
And because remember, I saidthat where you worship is also a
determinant of health.
But all those things, and thento see what incredible journeys
my siblings have been on is likesomething really special.
And oftentimes people ask me,like, what was it like at the
dinner table with your family?

(26:00):
And I said, look, after my dadsaid grace and amen is every
person for themselves.
And I have the shortest arms.
So yeah, it gets really quiet atfirst.
And then, like, once, you know,people start like eating, then
you know, the conversation kicksup.
But to know that all of thatplayed a huge role in my
brothers being healthy.

(26:21):
And then when the oldest one uhthat played in the NFL started
doing well, then my otherbrother started playing
football.
And so three of them earnedcollege scholarships to D1
football programs, and two wentinto the NFL.
And so to just see that isincredible.
And then alongside all of that,I'm like, well, I can, you know,

(26:42):
do some things in school.
So and you have I have.
And what's incredible too, doingall of this as a first
generation college graduate,because with my grandfather's
dying in 1946, right?

SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
That created a multi-generational effect.
So for example, that ended mydad's childhood.
He could only go to school for afew months out of the year, like
October, November throughFebruary, in that one-room
schoolhouse where your teacheris most likely educated maybe
third to eighth grade.

SPEAKER_00 (27:16):
And I didn't know that there was a garden in the
backyard all the time.
I don't know.
There was one in our house too.
Oh well, let me let me let me uhlet me set this up and we'll get
into the research.
The the research that you'retalking about is called the
Football Players' Health Studyat Harvard University.
Yes.
That tell us a little bit aboutthat.

(27:36):
It is it sanctioned by the NFL?
Is it funded by the NFL?
Just give us the backstory ofthat very quickly before we get
into some of the fascinatingresearch.

SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
So the Football Players' Health Study at Harvard
University is the largest studyof living former NFL players.
And we are funded by the NFLPlayers Association, which is
the union for current and formerplayers.

SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (28:00):
And that's where our funding is from.
However, um, it's reallyimportant to make note of the
fact that we are separate, aseparate entity.
And as trained scientists, um,we're at Harvard University and
some other collaboratinginstitutions, including Harvard
affiliates, the hospitals, andwhatnot, we have a world-class
team.
Um, and I love just learningfrom them every day.

(28:24):
Because one of my personalmantras is to learn something
new every day.
And with this job, it's like,okay, I'm learning things here.

SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
Yeah.
Now, are you able to talk aboutsome of the studies?
Because I did I did someresearch, and I know that your
team found that there is no linkbetween starting football before
the age of 12 and worselong-term outcomes.
So if it's not when they start,what really predicts who
struggles after football?

SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
What a question.
So let me preface it with a fewother things.
Okay.
So about the football players'health study, we have almost
5,000 former players that haveparticipated.
And with that, that one in fourNFL players that are out there
have participated.

SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Wow, that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Oh, it's huge.
And then what's also really coolis that in addition to that,
sometimes we have almost 2,000additional players that look at
our results.
Wow.
And so it's my hope that thework is making an impact.
And with the football players'health study, we don't isolate
any of the um the body systemsbecause what's good for your

(29:33):
heart is good for your brain,and vice versa.
And we don't separate the two,but looking at how they all um
have an impact on health.

SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
And so how from a layman's perspective, you just
said something prettyinteresting.
You don't separate the healthsystems.
What what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
So you know how you have your different body
systems.
So you have your musculoskeletalsystem.
Yeah.
Um, and you know how withfootball, it's a collision
sport.
And so you may experience.
Pain from that.
And one of the great examplesthat I can share with you is one
of our first publications, whichlooked at the impact of ACL

(30:09):
tears.
Yeah.
And so this paper really touchedme in a different way because
one of my brothers, uh, hisfootball career was essentially
ended by an ACL tear.
And what I witnessed in hisrecovery is just the challenges.
But what we found with thefootball players' health study
data is that yes, the playersthat experience an ACL injury

(30:31):
were more likely to developosteoarthritis and then also to
need a knee replacement down theline.
But we found a mild associationwith having a heart attack.

SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
You look at the total body.

SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
And we also, um, in another study looked at what we
found that those that haveexperienced concussion symptoms,
like there's an association withhypertension.
Concussion symptoms are alsolinked to pituitary dysfunction,
um, low testosterone, thingslike that.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
You know, I I have I have a lot of questions on many
of those.
And so, you know, I was tryingto go in in some orderly
fashion.
Since you are looking at thehave you well, let you know,
staying with the the question ofstarting football at 12.
And, you know, you got a lot ofmothers and a lot of fathers
that really don't want theirkids to play football.

(31:31):
But you guys didn't find a linkbetween starting early and and
some of the some of the thingsthat happen after football.
Why is that, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
A few things.
Uh number one, disclaimer, I amnot a parent.
Anytime anyone asks me whetheror not their uh children should
play contact sports, I say, youknow, I'm a scientist that
produces the knowledge that welearned from the research, and
we give it, you know, to you ina way that is digestible.
And then we just would hope thatyou make the, you know, decision

(32:02):
that makes sense for you.
But here's the thing, and Icould talk about this from like
a family perspective as well.

SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
My brother that played nine years in the NFL
didn't start playing footballuntil he was in high school.
Did not know that.
Yeah.
In fact, he wasn't eveninterested in playing football.
He never even watched footballon TV.
And he wanted to play becausehis friends were playing.
And then I hope he doesn't getupset with me, but I learned

(32:31):
last year that he also wanted toplay because he wanted to be
popular with the girls.

SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Well, of course, you gotta have the maybe.

SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
We had piano lessons on Friday afternoons.
And so when he asked our dad ifhe could play football, dad
said, no, you'll get hurt andyou're not quitting your piano
lessons.
And so he had to come back witha different strategy.
And so he created that strategywith another brother that's
three years older than him.
And so when he came back again,he said, But dad, I can earn a

(33:02):
scholarship to college.
And my dad was like, wait.
And he's like looking aroundbecause there's so many of us,
and he's like, go right ahead,son.
You know, because the thought ofpaying for college for like all
one million of us was definitelydaunting.
But the thing about thisbrother, though, okay, he wasn't
just any sort of athlete.

(33:22):
His work ethic prior to playingfootball was next level.
He was born with some thingsthat I just I don't even
understand in terms of likeenergy.
He was always the first, thefirst, the first.
Whether it was the first to getto the pantry when mom brought
the groceries home, whether itwas the first, you know, getting
up.
And I always hear nature.
Yeah, that's his thing.
And um, I also think that's afamily trait, too, that I also

(33:46):
didn't get.
Um, I'm a night owl.
Here's the thing about when onestarts playing football, and
then what we were studying.
So when you look at how long acareer is, in many cases, what
you may find is that those whohave the longer careers are like
the super survivors.

(34:06):
Like what about them?
Yeah.
Whereas like if your career isended by an injury or if you
didn't play as long, and thenthere's so many factors involved
that let's say your transitionfrom the sport wasn't a good
one.
Because what we do know is thatthese are some of the healthiest
people, like when they'replaying football and going into

(34:27):
the NFL.
But what happens when theyleave?
Um, it can go in a myriad ofways that could set you up for
long-term health issues.

SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
So let's talk about that.
You said you have 5,000 formerNFL players that have been part
of your study.
What's been the most surprising?
Because I can get into like Iwant to talk about CTE, but I
want to talk about what hassurprised you.
What has surprised you the most?
Because you've been a part ofthis team for how long now?

SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
In two days, it'll be nine years.
And so I've seen the evolutionof the study prior to, you know,
us publishing our first paperand then working with the
community to figure out how dowe communicate what we find,
created this really awesomeframework for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
So, what's been the most surprising?

SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
What's been the most surprising?
So, you know how we have ourlifespan, how long live.
And have you ever heard of thatpoem, The Dash, where it talks
about the significance of likewhen you're on earth, like the
dash between your when you'reborn and when you die?
So, in science, there's thisother concept called health
span.

SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
And so, health span is how long you live until you
have a health issue that affectsyour quality of life.
You remember the first paper Iwas talking about with health
disparities.
And there is this likelong-standing, I would call it a
rumor, that players don't livelong, but that's not true.
They live just as long aseveryone else, if not longer.

(36:01):
However, the surprising findingfor me was when we found that on
average, former players arelosing 10 years of health span.
What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Well, doesn't that make sense though?

SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
It makes sense.
However, when you think aboutlosing health span in that one
may feel older than what theiractual like chronological age
is.
And what do we know about whenone experiences health
challenges?
It can really have an impact onmental health and just how you
live your life and everything.

(36:35):
And then look at the cost oftreating chronic diseases in
this country, very expensive.
So it can be quite tumultuous.
And you want to ask a question?

SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
No, I want you to finish.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
Yeah.
And so the thing about healthspan, though, is when you take a
deeper dive, there's thingswhere we could possibly
intervene.
Like something likehypertension, if you are working
with a primary care physician,that's treatable.
Sleep apnea, treatable.
And so, what are the ways inwhich one's health span can be

(37:11):
enhanced?

SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
I'm I'm with you.
I I truly get that.
And I know, and looking at someof the research, about 35% of
the players believe that theyhave some kind of form of CTE.
Now, we can get into theresearch.
Now, you guys are funded by thePlayer Association to create all
of this data.
Has there been a change in thegame in any kind of way based on

(37:35):
the research?
Now, I'm asking because you'vebeen there for nine years and
you can look back and lookforward and you can tell me what
you what you think.

SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
I will say this.
I don't really watch football asmuch anymore because it used to
be a recreational activity.
So I'm at a game or like back inthe day when I would support my
students.
When I was at Tulane, I workedin the athletic department.
But now when I look at football,I think of work, I think of
data, I think of like datapoints, and just also I'm

(38:05):
generating new researchquestions.
So I'm like, well, maybe Ishould do something else.

SPEAKER_00 (38:09):
So every tackle you're thinking of something
different.

SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
And so I don't really watch it as much, but it
is my hope that it the work thatwe've done has had an impact on
how the game is played.
However, what's important tonote is that our work is with
former players.
And so every player that's onthe field will become a former
player.

(38:32):
Can we help them in terms oflike enhancing health span?
All that said, we're not fundedby the NFL.
However, there is on one oftheir, I think it's their
operations website, and it'sreally cool because as a
storyteller, you know, I want toknow about historical
perspective.
But you can see, and it'spublicly available.
You can see how the game hasevolved over the years and all

(38:56):
of the different rule changes.
It's really interesting.
Like whether you move like wherea play starts, like kickoff and
all that, and just differentthings.
Yeah.
But I'll share this.
I remember reading my firstround of papers when we're in on
my dissertation.
And I learned about how in 1905,I believe there were 18

(39:19):
fatalities in football.
But back then, um, they had theleather caps instead of the
hardly like little leather capfolded up, put it in your back
pocket and go home.
And after that season with somany fatalities, there was a
pause on football, and I believeit was President uh Teddy
Roosevelt who led the charge,because I think he played

(39:41):
football, who was interested inlike figuring out what to do
with football, if they should,you know, implement uh more
safety measures or just get ridof the sport altogether.
And this is a metaphor, I say,for how the work goes.
With new leg rules in place,there were 33 fatalities.

(40:01):
So it's like, oh man, you dowhat you can to improve health
and safety, but you're learningalong the way.

SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
Well, you guys have uncovered some really
fascinating data points.
And and I guess the question isfor me, so people understand,
5,000 former players, um, andyou said one in four, or one in
four.
And so my question is uh, howlong are they waiting before
they enter the study?

SPEAKER_01 (40:29):
Also, a wonderful question.
So I'll talk about our inclusioncriteria.
So, in order to be eligible toparticipate in the football
players' health study, one mustbe a former player that played
from 1960 on.
And the reason why 1960 isimportant is because of um the

(40:50):
helmets and also when you thinkabout career length.
If a former player signed thedotted line on a contract and
they showed up to training campand decided not to do this, they
are still eligible.
I see.
Just think about all of therequirements for becoming an NFL
player.
Now there's educationrequirements, um, and obviously

(41:13):
you have to be in great shape.
And players are, I have met somany that are just incredibly
brilliant.
Incredibly brilliant.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:22):
So the inclusion criteria is is um two years out
or since 1960.

SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Since played 1960 on and is a former player.

SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
Former player, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 (41:38):
And they must be uh verified, and we have a process
for that.

SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
Um do you guys include or talk to their
families?
Because there is a perceptionthat people leave the violent
game of football kind ofmentally messed up.
Concussions, CTE.
Are you seeing a connectionbetween the what former players
need and the burden on theirfamilies?

SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
I love this question.
Um, and the reason why I lovethis question is football, I
define it as a team sport, acommunity sport, but it's also a
family sport.
Like I remember my mom makingsmoothies for my brothers and
just like making sure that theyhad all the things at home to

(42:25):
make sure that they could, youknow, recover from practice and
games and whatnot.
And then to be there as liketheir social support, their
support system, which is reallyimportant to be done research on
that.
And let me share something aboutthe football players' health
study that makes it unique.

SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
Okay.
Please do.

SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
We utilize a framework called community-based
participatory research.
And in the literature, there'slike nine published principles,
but all of them essentially keepthe community where you're
conducting the work at thecenter of all of the work, start
to finish.
In fact, the literature definesit as a collaboration between
the scientists and researchers,clinicians who are conducting

(43:06):
the research and the communitywhere it's happening.
And so there's a lot ofco-learning that happens.
So when the football players'health study began, before I
joined this team, they actuallyput together an advisory board
with former NFL players.
And as you see on our website,there are 29 of them.
And they represent a range ofexperience from different

(43:30):
positions, era of play,geographic locations.
And we can't do the work withoutthe community.
And so, as a scientist, yeah, asa scientist, like we're trained
in a very specific way.
However, the experiences of anNFL player, the NFL players know
that best.
And so I was at a conferenceearlier this year where they

(43:52):
said, you know, with equitywork, you don't parachute into
the community and thinking thatyou have the answers or thinking
that you know what to do or howto conduct research.
The priorities of the researchare defined by the community.
And so when they brought theformer players to Boston, one of
the first things they said toour team was, you know, if you

(44:12):
really want to understand ourexperiences, you need to bring
in the family.
And so we created a familyadvisory board.

SPEAKER_00 (44:21):
There's a link based on some of the research that you
guys have done.
There's a there's a data linkbetween concussion and
hypertension, high cholesterol,especially people under 40.
Any idea why that might behappening?

SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Well, as I mentioned before, not separating the body
systems from each other.
Um, and I'll leave it to theclinicians to further explain
what could be happening from aphysiological perspective.
But as I mentioned before,what's good for the brain is
good for the heart.
What's good for the heart isgood for the brain.

(44:56):
I did want to please do.
So prior to the, oh, totallyfine.
Got a chance to get some water.
Well, when the football players'health study began prior to my
joining the team, and theybrought the former player
advisory board to Boston andthey said to the team, hey, if
you really want to understandour experiences, you must

(45:16):
include families because theythey know what's going on with
us.
And so we formed a familyadvisory board as well.
And when I tell you that theyhave been just incredible to
work with, and these are some ofour like amazing ambassadors
from the community that not onlyshare their experiences, but

(45:37):
they introduce us to othercommunity organizations that are
also doing work to supportformer players and families.
Okay, that's interesting.
And they worked alongside withus to create the framework for
returning results so that theresearch, once it's published in
a peer-reviewed journal, that itgoes beyond the ivory tower.

(45:58):
And so we created that withthree parts in mind, and it was
their brainchild to share whatthe results were and why we did
the study.
Then the next part is what thismay mean for a former player.
And then the third part isresources and action steps
because some of the research maybe a bit challenging.

(46:18):
And so we wanted to make surethat they can follow up and
learn more about the healthconditions that we're studying
and to see where resources areavailable for players and go
from there.

SPEAKER_00 (46:29):
The last segment is going to be looking towards the
future.
What I found interesting is someof the data that you guys came
up with or the results showedthat mid-range players, and
we're talking longevity, whetheryou played one day or as long as
Tom Brady, 20 years or somethinglike that, that the mid-range
careers were the ones that hadthe worst outcomes.

(46:52):
I'm getting that correct.
Why do you think that is?
Because I would think that thatthose folks that have been
around and playing for more than11 seasons are going to suffer
the worst.

SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
Well, it's important to note that we're still
learning.

SPEAKER_00 (47:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (47:08):
However, with a career in football, what could
be happening is a multitude ofthings.
So once you make a roster, youmust maintain your spot on that
roster.
And there's an influx of, youknow, new players every year
that are joining this game.
I've heard from friends andfamily about how, you know,
there's no job security and justyou have to continue to like

(47:31):
work hard.
And then sometimes you'll seelike different parts of the
organization structure, likewhether there's a new coach in a
team of coaches that areworking.
And, you know, they may, I don'teven want to speak in football
terms because if I were to saythey may run a certain type of
office, that I really would notknow what that's out of my

(47:53):
depth.
But lots of different variables.
But the one that I'm interestedin is like when an injury
happens.

SPEAKER_02 (48:01):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (48:02):
Like reasons for leaving the NFL.
And so to that, I would say staytuned because the work is
ongoing.
And it takes a long time forthis type of study to get up and
running and get it stride.
Just like with many athletes,like my brother, he fumbled
around a little bit at first.
He was working hard, but one dayit clicked.

(48:24):
Like, oh, this is how you dothis.
And from then on, he wasunstoppable.

SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
And so when you guys are thinking about, when you
think of, when you guys arethinking about future studies,
um, how do you go aboutdesigning your studies?

SPEAKER_01 (48:37):
Such a great, great question.
So the football players' healthstudy is a longitudinal study,
meaning we're studying healthover time.
And you've heard me mention afew times, like this is what we
learn from this.
So in the field of epidemiology,which is um what one of my
degrees is in.
So uh you learn about thedistribution and determinants of

(49:00):
diseases, and depending on whereyou're studying that, you know,
that's where you're focusing on.
We start with health andwellness questionnaires.
I'm sure someone as intuitive asyourself would say, well, if
someone's filling out aquestionnaire, how do you know
they're telling the truth?
That's the power of having alarge cohort because you can
find signals in the noise, so tospeak.
It's not noise, it's valuabledata, but in terms of an

(49:23):
epidemiology perspective.
And from there, we createdadditional research initiatives.
And you may see some of those onour website.
I can share with you all thelinks.
But one of the things that we'rereally proud of is that we
brought um 111 former players toBoston.
They went through a three and ahalf day battery of total health

(49:47):
assessments.
And when I joined the team, thatwas when we were like, okay, how
do we even do this?
Like, what are all of theassessments that need to be a
part of this?
Research initiatives, who arethe investigators to work with,
a lot of coordination.
And it seemed just impossible atone time, but with so many
brilliant minds that care aboutformer player health.

(50:10):
And as I mentioned before, thecommunity did this along with
us.
They helped us like figure outhow do we make this comfortable.
I remember sending out emailslike, can you measure your head
to make sure that we have likethe right size equipment?
And um, I remember going to lookat the different assessment
rooms, and my coworkers wouldlaugh and say, Hey, will your

(50:31):
brother fit on this table?
Can he, you know, sit in thischair?

SPEAKER_00 (50:34):
And what I find interesting is this is where is
all of this data going in thefuture?
And what's the impact?
I'm not a conspiracist, but I Ithink the National Football
League is is one of the mostsuccessful sports ever created.
And so you guys have are lookingat the health of a gladiator

(50:57):
sport.
I really wonder how the data isbeing used in terms of player
care, how it's being used interms of how it's being used in
terms of how they insurethemselves, because a lot of
them have to have cert surgeriesor injections.
You want to talk a little bitabout how the data could be used

(51:17):
as an epidemiologist.
I know you are thinking about itin a certain way, but then it
has its application toreal-world stuff about how it's
being used.

SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
So if I could take it a step back to when Walter
Camp, the father of Americanfootball, he was a student at
Yale, played football there, andthen went on to coach there.
And I like to speak on thisbecause I graduated from Yale
with my master's in chronicdisease epidemiology, and I
happened to live on the samestreet that he apparently grew

(51:51):
up on.
It's a long street, though.
A number of years ago, the YaleAlumni magazine published this
article on football in WalterCamp because um there was
someone who wrote a book on hislife, and his thing with
football was to challenge thehuman body to its peak physical
ability.

(52:11):
And here's the thing, too.
They published in this articlesome of his notes about what to
do prior to competition, thetype of food you eat, being
sequestered, and the disciplinethat it takes to be an elite
athlete.
And those are the things thatwent on to become football
culture.

(52:32):
So there's a lot of positiveattributes to playing football.
Like when I saw my brothersfocusing, when I saw my brothers
focusing on, you know, gettingto that next big thing with
football, it inspired me.
I was like, wow, well, I can dobetter at the following.
And so with the data itself andhow we could use it, wow, I hope

(52:55):
that with data, it is used totell a story that inspires and
changes lives, enhances lives.
And because we're talking aboutdata, I must share the
disclaimer that um the footballplayers' health study, privacy,
and confidentiality are veryimportant to us.

(53:16):
And we have certificates ofconfidentiality from the NIH.
And this is something that wetake very seriously.
So there's there's thatdisclaimer.
What I like to say about data,and this is my whole like
storyteller spiel.
Okay, each data point is aperson.

SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 (53:32):
And as you're working on the science, it's
important to keep that inperspective and to bring your
empathy to the table because younever know who that outlier is.
But when you focus on healthequity, where you're focusing on
everyone that can have theability to achieve optimal
health, it puts things intoperspective.

(53:54):
It was really fascinating too.
And it makes me wish that I'dtaken more sociology courses.
Think about the impact of thison different communities and the
social networks and whatnot.
Because there's a lot of thingsabout football that are
absolutely incredible.
Think about what happens in acommunity when someone makes it
to the NFL.

SPEAKER_02 (54:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:15):
And like my high school, yeah, there's a lot of
pride.
And for the 50th Super Bowl,they sent out these gold um
footballs to the high school ofanyone that had ever played in a
Super Bowl.
And so many of the high schoolsin the area where I grew up
received one of those.
And it's just, it's amazing tosee how when others, you know,

(54:36):
put in the work too, and justyou build up that cultural
piece.
I remember being in a meetingwith our senior faculty, and I
told them about the number ofguys from my neighborhood, the
number from my high school.
There was an article published anumber of years ago where we
were ranked 15th in the nationfor sending guys into the NFL
draft.
And like that badge of pride,like that is incredible.

(55:00):
And so, of course, asscientists, we're always
wondering, like, well, what isbehind this?
And they asked me, they said,Well, what is it about where you
grew up?

SPEAKER_00 (55:10):
Just big, big people.

SPEAKER_01 (55:12):
Great people, part of the many, part of the
southern migration north.
People that believe incommunity, family, and pouring
heart and love and soul intoeverything they do.

SPEAKER_00 (55:24):
Well, you know, I wanna I wanna stay on the health
equity part.
You know, given the newadministration we have in DC and
the pushback against healthequity, um, you are you are you
thinking of health equity from aracial perspective or from an
equity standpoint of formerplayers versus everybody else?

SPEAKER_01 (55:43):
Also, a great question.
So, in terms of health equity,it could be anything that is an
obstacle to optimal health.
It doesn't have to necessarilybe race or racism, which is
actually structural racism,systemic racism.
Those are the it's not that youare because you are a certain

(56:04):
race that this is gonna happento you.
It's the factors around.
Remember, I mentioned thedeterminants of health.
Yeah.
And um, even how uh resourcesare allocated.
Do you have sidewalks in yourneighborhood?
There's things like we callthem.

SPEAKER_00 (56:19):
No, you guys are you asking that that those types of
questions?
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
Not yet.
Okay.
So there are other things thatwe are asking about, and that
part of the research isevolving.
Stay tuned there.
It was just that, you know, withso much data and you notice
certain trends.
And so then you want to digdeeper.
And so we've published onchronic pain, where the black
former players are reportinghigher levels of intense pain

(56:48):
and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 (56:49):
And then what's so fascinating about that is that
it in there's a bias inhealthcare that black people
have a higher threshold of painand therefore they're not given
pain medication.
I just looked at that before wecame on.
Any insights you can give on thepain study?
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (57:07):
And I'd like to take it away from football for a
moment.
And because when you're ingraduate school and you learn
about health disparities, youlearn about those things.
You learn about how when there'sa condition where certain
communities may be moredisproportionately affected by
these conditions.
And I'm thinking specifically ofhypertension, where um, you

(57:28):
know, the black community higherrates and when they conducted
the clinical trials for some ofthe medications, the clinical
trial participants didn't looklike the community that's, you
know, disproportionatelyaffected by the condition.
And so it's like, well, how canyou really understand what's
happening so that you can makesure that they can achieve

(57:49):
optimal health?
And so systemic factors.
There's so much that I could sayabout that, but I won't take up
all of your time with it.
But it's really important,really important, heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 (58:00):
Say more about that.
Heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01 (58:02):
Just because when I think back to why I never had a
grandfather, and had they justlived five to ten more years, it
would have changed thetrajectory of our families.
My dad would have been able togo to college because my
grandfathers believed ineducation.
Um, and they believed in hardwork and access to care is

(58:26):
important.
But to be systematically lockedout of adequate health care,
it's heartbreaking.
And another thing, too, I'm inthe first generation to do all
of these things, but to be thefirst in the first generation
born in a hospital is reallysomething.
Because in yeah, the firsthospital was open in 17, I

(58:46):
believe the 1750s.
And then to know that 33 yearsafter 1946, you know, I was born
in a hospital, and it's like,what in the world?
Like, what are we being lockedout of?

SPEAKER_00 (58:59):
And how I understand what you mean by the pain
component of that.
And as we get ready to closeout, I guess now I can kind of
introduce the surprise to mylisteners.
And that is Dr.
Alicia Whittington is my firstcousin.
In fact, her her father and mymother are brothers and sisters.
And she's absolutely right.
1946, our grandfather passedfrom something really simple as

(59:23):
a rupture to genocitis.
So I just want a folks to knowthat.
But I am so proud of you, Lisa,for what you're what you're
doing and and Bernard and Durland all of all of the everyone's
journey.
And so as we get ready to closethis out, um, you know, what
fascinates me about the workthat you guys are doing over at

(59:44):
at Harvard, this football study,is that you're looking at former
players, is that you're lookingat the at the at the whole
person.
And I guess, you know, mycurious brain wonders when we
look into the future, what doyou see happening with with with
the study?
And it's a two-part, and I wantyou to stay on this part one
with a study and its impact onlife after football.

(01:00:08):
Because I'm gonna, well, let mestop there and not not get on my
soapbox.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:12):
That's a family trait, by the way.
Right.
So what I see in the future,because we are generating a lot
of information.
And I mentioned before that whenyou publish research in a
peer-reviewed journal, itshouldn't stay in the ivory
tower.
It needs to get back to thecommunity.
Yes, it does.
Yeah.
And so what I see for thefuture, what I see for the

(01:00:35):
future is measuring the impactof what we're sharing.
Because that's the whole point.
If we're going to enhance one'shealth span, quality of life,
how are we doing?
The information that we'veshared, is it saving lives?
Is it encouraging individuals togo to the doctor?

(01:00:58):
While working in this field, youhear a lot of like compelling
stories.
And then you hear themes.
And one of those themes has beenthat for many former players
that in their lives afterfootball, they're navigating the
US healthcare system on theirown for the first time.
And communication is also one ofthose determinants of health.

(01:01:19):
And so when we learned aboutthis, our team said, okay, well,
what can we do to help?
That's also like rooted in theresearch, research-based tips.
So we created what is called thehealth checklist.
And it is designed to where ifformer players are, you know,

(01:01:39):
preparing for a doctor's visit,and it's a guide, a
conversational guide for them totalk to their physicians.
And so in that sense, it becomesa bi-directional tool where they
learn more by asking questions.
And it's available on ourwebsite.
And I'll uh send you the link sothat you can share it with
Please do.
And to be honest, anyone can usethis checklist because it's

(01:02:02):
based in research tips.
And another thing about healthequity and health disparities,
when you focus on making lifehealth and all the things better
for those who are suffering morethan others, everyone benefits.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:18):
When you guys look at outcomes, do you do it based
on position?
Offensive player roles versusdefensive player roles.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:26):
Oh, I'll go back to the first example that I gave,
the first health disparitiespaper.
When we saw the number of healthissues they were, or the
frequency at which they werereporting those different health
outcomes, and it's to know well,what could be associated with
this?
So, yes, we did, you know, um,and when you're doing
statistical modeling, what youdo is you add in a variable for

(01:02:48):
position, body mass index, andother factors, and then you look
at the results.
And so that's the kind of likenerdy statistician piece.
No, that's what's fair.
But it's important because ifyou do not take those things
into account, you may be missingsomething.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:04):
Are defensive players or linebackers more
injury prone after versusrunning backs versus
quarterbacks?
Can you say anything about it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:13):
Well, I'll go back to my dissertation research and
how when I first approached it,and this goes to show you how
much I was paying attention ornot when my brother So in the
survey, they asked the um theathletes like what position did
they play?
They experienced concussions andet cetera, et cetera.
And so I thought thatquarterbacks would have

(01:03:36):
experienced the most uh numberof concussions because that's
who everyone on defense istrying to get after.
And when I told my brothersthat, they were a little
ashamed.
But in uh my sample for mydissertation, it was the running
backs and the receivers.
And yeah, um, yeah, so I learneda lot about that.
But on the professional level,I'll say stay tuned.

(01:03:56):
We have some other colleaguesthat can really speak to that,
but we're still learning.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:01):
Any any closing remarks you want to say to my to
the listeners about what you door your your legacy and your
direction?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:09):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate this opportunity.
I have thoroughly enjoyedhanging out with you, cousin.
I would like to share with youraudience uh a few things.
Number one, if you have theopportunity to do so, connect
with your family history.
Um and the reason why I say thatis because you may learn a lot

(01:04:30):
about health trajectories ingeneral, and you may find some
inspiration from it.
And for someone like me, it ledme to my purpose of being on
earth, which is just absolutelyincredible.
And it was because I started offas a precocious, nosy little
girl and just wanted to knowlike, why don't I have a
grandfather, you know?
And it will inspire you alongthe way.

(01:04:52):
And if I could just share like acouple of anecdotes.
Please.
When I was in junior high, itwas the first time that I was in
a classroom with students whereeveryone didn't look like me.
And that was an interestingexperience.
And I also did not try that hardin school.
And without trying, I know.

(01:05:12):
And it's because I was like, oh,I'm in junior high now,
whatever.
And I didn't try, and I got a3.5.
And my father, your uncle, sawmy report card and he said,
which you don't say to stubbornpeople like myself, he said, Oh,
I bet you can't get a 4.0.
And I said, I bet I can.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'm getting there in aminute.

(01:05:33):
And so my dad said, Okay, youmake a 4.0, I'll give you$40.
And you know, as a child, likethat feels like a million bucks.
And so what I did was I came upwith a strategy.
I went and talked to all six ofmy teachers for that before the
quarter started.
And I said, This is my goal.
And I want to do everything thatit takes to get there.

(01:05:55):
So communication is important,discipline, being focused,
having goals, very important.
And my father saw me at nightwhen he got home from work, just
struggling, trying to like makeit right.
And as the stakes became likemore, you know, dire, my father
would up it.
He was like, okay,$60,$80.
And then when I was reallystruggling, he was like, okay,

(01:06:15):
$100.
And I was like, I've got to getthis.
And there was one class, oneclass that was giving me the
blues.
And I was like, I don't know ifit's gonna happen.
Because back then you had tohave a 95% average to get an AR
classes.
And when I got my 95, I earnedevery bit of that 95%.

(01:06:37):
Okay.
And my teacher, Mr.
Brownfield, said, You did it.
And I went home and I rememberbeing on the school bus and
passing around my report card.
And everybody's like, oh mygosh, she got a 4.0, she got a
4.0, look at this.
And it was just so cool howeverybody was so happy for me.
I was tired, I was worn out.
But when I got home and I waitedfor my dad, I waited up late for

(01:07:00):
him to come home from workbecause he worked the 3 p.m.
when he came home.
I said, Here, look.
And I'm thinking he's about tohave like some grandiose
response.
And his response was, good, Iknew you could do it.
And I was just like, Wait, what?
Did you just trick me into likemy potential that I should have
recognized in the first place?
We were talking about it lastnight.
He said, Yeah, I had to, youknow, inspire you to, you know,

(01:07:23):
get your lesson.
And I stayed there and I toldhim, I said, You tricked me.
But I remember when you heardabout that, and it was my
sophomore year in high school,and you said, I bet you can't
get straight A's for the year.
And how much did you have to payme?
$200.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:42):
$200.
And when you did, you called meand said, All time to pay up.
I happily sent.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:48):
Yes.
But that's important, butthere's one more piece.
After you get there, you have topay it forward.
And so while on your show, I'mgonna figure out a way to find
either a relative or a localyouth or something that I can
inspire in the same way.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:04):
Well, Lisa, Dr.
Alicia Whittington, thank you somuch for joining me on the Next
Pick Thing.
You know, this has really been adelightful conversation.
I I purposefully waited till theend to tell folks you're we were
related because this is reallyabout you, not us.
And I wanted to hear your story.
I really loved and thank you forsharing the connection about

(01:08:26):
1946 and the loss of bothgrandparents and your journey to
your purpose.
And so, you know, right nowyou're doing some work that I
think people could reallyappreciate.
And and I'll end on this noteand just say that this has been
a phenomenal exercise.
Uh I mean a phenomenal episodethat talks about legacy and

(01:08:46):
generation and and getting oneand and living your life to your
purpose and the surprisingthings that happen that nudge
you on the way, like your brokenfoot, and and you being and
someone pushing you.
So, to all my listeners outthere, I want to thank you for
joining us on this episode.
I do ask you to go and find Dr.

(01:09:08):
Alicia Whittington.
Again, she's doing some workwith the Football Players Health
Study at Harvard University.
You should really visit theirwebsite because what I'm looking
at right now, they post all oftheir results and it's pretty
phenomenal.
Thanks for listening to The NextBig Thing.
I'm your host, Keith D.Terry.

(01:09:28):
If you've enjoyed this episodeand you'd like to support this
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Post about it on social media orleave a rating and a review.
To catch all the latest from me,you can follow me on my YouTube
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(01:09:49):
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