The Mushroom Revolution: How Mushnoom is Redefining Health Episode

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast, The Next Big Thing.
I'm your host, Keith D.
Terry, a consultant, a coach,and a serial entrepreneur.
The mission here is to teach,inspire, and to motivate.
Today's conversation issomething familiar yet
revolutionary.
We're talking about mushrooms.
You heard that correctly.
We're talking about mushrooms.

(00:22):
For centuries, we've been,you've heard that food, it's a
food of folklore.
But what if they can also beused for medicine?
Not in a mystical sense, but ina clinical sense, a
science-driven way that couldchange health care as we know
it.
My guest today are twophysicians who are stepping

(00:42):
beyond traditional medicine andexploring this frontier.
First up, we have Dr.
Seva Gandu, who is the founderand CEO of a company called Mush
Nums.
Now, they're going to correct meif I've said that incorrectly.
Don't confuse it with Mushroom.
It's called Mush Noom.
With training, he has bothtraining in both Eastern and
Western medicine, and he iscommitted to bringing science

(01:04):
and holistic health to us.
Alongside him, literally, is Dr.
Ronaldo Jurell, Mushroomsco-founder and managing
director, a physician of morethan three decades with
experience in hospital medicineand leadership on the Chicago
South Side.
Together, they're leading acompany called Mushrooms, and
I'm going to spell it for you,M-U-S-H-N-O-O-M, a company with

(01:29):
a bold mission to transform totransform mushrooms from a
superfood into potentiallymedicines that can reshape
healthcare and your health.
Now, I've given my listeners theheadlines, but I'd like for both
of you doctors to uh to take outof your own words, if you could
tell us briefly who you are,what you do, and what what and

(01:54):
why you chose to dedicate yourwork to Mush Noom, the company.
Either one can start.
Dr.
Gandu?

SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
First of all, thank you so much, Keith, for having
us on your podcast, the next bigthing.
We've been looking forward tothis ever since we've gotten the
first call from you.
You know, my my introduction,I'm quite a simple guy, you
know, uh a physician.
That's my background.
It's a physician by day, work onmushnoon by night, you know.
So the entrepreneur in me wassomething that was always

(02:25):
brewing, you know, from a reallyyoung age.
And I don't look at it asentrepreneurship, I look at it
as impactful entrepreneurship.
I've always wanted to dosomething that I could impact
the communities, make a largerimpact as a whole.
So that's kind of how we gotinto the supplement industry.
Um it's a little more complexthan that, but it is.

SPEAKER_02 (02:49):
Okay.
Okay.
Dr.
Jarrell?
Same questions for you.
What tell us who you are andwhat you do and what m why'd you
dedicate your work to Mush Noom?

SPEAKER_01 (02:59):
Sure.
And again, I want to also thankyou, Keith, for having us on.
We've been looking forward tothis uh way for you and I to
kind of reconnect since we'veknown each other for a while but
haven't been in contactrecently.
So appreciate that as well.
Uh I'm Dr.
Ronaldo Jurell, uh born andraised on the south side of
Chicago, and uh started thisjourney uh 30-something years
ago uh in private practice uh ina little town called Joliet,

(03:22):
Illinois, and was there forabout 13 years.
Then subsequently moved down toNorth Carolina and started
working as a hospitalist.
And what I've noticed over thelast 30 years of practicing is
that we've always had this gapbetween what I feel is great
things that were coming out ofEastern medicine that were tried
and true, and Western medicine.
We've seen a lot of supplementscome and go over a long period

(03:45):
of time, and some with testing,some without testing.
So when I connected with uh Dr.
Gandhu here, we both workedtogether at night in the
hospital.
What actually happened was webegan talking to each other,
just both about business andabout life and some other
things.
And uh at the time, uh we have acompany that was selling fresh
mushrooms, and uh the originalplan was to take that company

(04:08):
and specifically have thatcompany, you know, widen that
company or grow that company.
And then we started thinkingabout the extracts and the
benefit of the extracts beingthat people could take them on a
daily basis.
So make a long story short, uhthere was a meeting of the
minds.
For me personally, my family isa family of entrepreneurs,
right?
No one in my family really hasever worked for anyone, right?

(04:31):
And so grew up with that in thehousehold.
My father was in real estate,and even when I went into
private practice, he says, youknow, son, you have to think of
this practice as your business.
Always kind of had that focus,and so this is kind of an
extension of that for me.

SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Okay, well, we'll get into it.
Well, you know, I want to thankyou both.
That really helps set the stage.
Now let's dive into what Iconsider an incredible journey.
I want to go from the personalside of this, and then now we're
gonna meander from personal sideto science to the marketplace
and the future of mushrooms.
So let's start with the with thehuman side.
You know, we we've heard, you'vehinted at what will pulled you

(05:08):
in, but I'd love to go a littledeeper.
Was the primary reason you guysstarted this?
Was it the science?
Was it something in yourbackground, or was it a personal
experience that made you believethat mushrooms could be
transformative?

SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Yeah, I would say it's a combination of all three
things.
Personally, I had exploredmushroom supplements since about
the year 2018.
I was taking mushroomsupplements for the reason that
I wanted to not be as reliant oncaffeine.
I wanted to have more clarity, Iwanted to have more focus.
So I was taking lines made.
And I had definitely noticed,you know, a benefit by taking

(05:45):
the supplement.
But then there was also a periodof time where I realized, well,
why doesn't each supplementbrand, you know, feel the same?
And then, and so that was aquestion that kind of lingered
for a really long time, but Inever really, you know, did
something about it, like interms of wanting to start a
business, you know, based onthat.

SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
But by taking it, it started to make you feel better.

SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
100%.
Um The reason we looked atmushrooms as a whole, another
reason that we looked atmushrooms, and you know, for me
personally, um, was um we asphysicians, we're prescribing
medications.
We're constantly Dr.
Drell and I, we practiceinpatient medicine, so we're

(06:28):
seeing the sickest of the sick.
And so we're still we're we'reseeing the limitations that
traditional, conventional,modern day medicine has, right?
And the limitation here is thatthere's not enough of a focus on
preventative health whatsoever.
You know, so we can get youfeeling better, but from a

(06:49):
standpoint of are you feelingbetter from within, you know, in
terms of you know how you goabout your lifestyle every day?
That that's that's somethingthat medications can't do on
their own.

SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
Dr.
Durrell, uh, I want you to getin on that.
Was it the science, tradition,or personal story, but a little
bit of a twist.
Was there a turning point thatyou knew it could be a a food, a
superfood, more for medicine?

SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yeah, I think uh what happened was, you know, I
was kind of on the ground levelof this, Keith.
And so um, as I said, we had acompany that was selling fresh
mushrooms, lion's mane andoyster mushrooms.
So my customers were coming backto me saying, you know, quite
honestly, Doc, hey, I feelgreat, you know, when I'm eating
these mushrooms.

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
Can I interrupt for a second?
Yes.
So you guys were selling lion'smane and oysters as just a a
food supplement or for medicalreasons?

SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
No, we were selling them because we found out that,
and this is honest to goodnesstruth, we found out how popular
the lion's mane and oystermushrooms were.
So we have a company that wasselling this, and I had exposed
Dr.
Gandu to it, not knowing that hewas already purchasing in
another area lion's mane andoyster mushrooms.
So it's kind of just a crazy.

(08:06):
So my customers wereconsistently coming because we
could only sell them every otherweek.
So my customers, customers wereconsistently coming to me
saying, Hey, Doc, you know, Ifeel great when I'm eating these
mushrooms, but that week thatyou're not here to sell these
things, I feel lousy.
So, you know, the wheels startedspinning in my head, and I said,
Well, you know, let's look intothese extracts.

(08:27):
Then what happened was the moreand more that we looked at the
extracts, what happened was westarted finding studies that
supported the use of theextracts that we hadn't known
about.
And there were peer-reviewedstudies from National Institute
of Health, from Public Med.
Said, boy, there are legitimatestudies out here that support
the use of these extracts.

SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So let's let's stay on that human side for just a
little bit longer.
You know, did you guys face Imean, because we got we have a
we're gonna get we really getdeep into the science and we're
gonna get into the marketplace.
As you know, here you got yourbuddy, you find out you both
are, you know, you have oneperson selling lion's man and
oysters just because they'regood food and they taste great,

(09:10):
right?
And they make you all thisinformation.
Did you face skepticism frompeers or people when you when
you decided that you were goingto start Mush Noom, the company?

SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
You know, I would say skepticism is something that
doesn't escape us, right?
Especially being aphysician-owned supplement
brand.
So I think I think to somedegree, physician-owned
supplement company is almostoxymoronic.
Physicians aren't supposed tobelieve in supplements, right?
Because at least on the on themedicine side, right?

(09:43):
Right, right.
So but the trend in healthcareis is there is a shift and it's
happening, and we're seeing it.
There's there's more physiciansthat are looking into
integrative medicine, lifestylemedicine.
They're understanding that, hey,supplements and nutraceuticals
are potentially a game changer.
You know, they can give apatient that boost to their

(10:06):
quality of life.
They can potentially help withpreventative care.
I mean, that that's that's theway I see the culture kind of
emotional.

SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
Yeah, I I think there's there's two things,
right?
And so, you know, I've beenprescribing medicines for 30
years.
And so here's the deal, right?
I've never put anybody on amedication and they've been
happy about it, right?
They've never come back in myoffice and you know, when I was
in private practice and said,Man, thank you, Doc, for putting
me on that lasana pro for myblood pressure, right?
So what has happened here isthat when we first started this

(10:35):
journey, we didn't know how muchpeople were going to take
ownership of their own medicalissues and ship of feeling
better.
That's been the greatest thingfor me with this, right?
I can walk through thathospital, I can go to certain
places in the town that I work,and people are coming up to me,
hey doc, man, my cholesterol isgreat, you know, and and I've
just started working out andI've just started eating better

(10:58):
because man, you gave me thatboost, you know, with this, you
know, with this cordyceps orwhatever.
And so that's what we wanted tosee in medicine, right?
But you don't get that when youwrite a prescription for
somebody and give it to them,right?
Because they're not reallyhaving a part in making that
decision, right?
It's the doctor told me I haveto do this, right?

(11:18):
And how many times did peopleleave my office and go home and
tell their loved ones, Dr.
Jurell told me I gotta take thatlasso?
So it's a different focus, andthat's something that I was
surprised about that we've beenseeing.

SPEAKER_02 (11:30):
Well, let me follow up with this, uh, because we're
almost done with this, the humanside of this.
What do your families thinkabout you guys pursuing this
versus the all-out traditionalapproach of medicine?

SPEAKER_01 (11:41):
Uh for me, it's real simple, right?
My family's on product.
Everybody in my family I can'tget them enough product, to be
honest with you.
A sister who has high bloodpressure, we've put her on some
of the supplements.
We've gotten her off of one ofthe major medicines that she was
on for her blood pressure, andshe's living her best life.
You know, so all my familymembers, again, you got to

(12:02):
remember, I come from a familyof entrepreneurs.
So, you know, some of them aresitting back going, it's about
time you did something elsebesides practicing medicine,
man.
Well, is that it?
Okay.
Dr.
Gandhi, you?

SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
What about you?
Yeah.
So my my wife is a physician aswell, and she practices
pediatric hematology oncology.
So far, far more complex thanwhat Dr.
Drell and I do.
But, you know, she's also takenmushroom supplements.
The only reason she's not on anysupplements right now is because
we're having the babies, youknow, as soon as as soon as
we're past this period, she'sgoing to be on the supplements

(12:34):
back on them.
For her to see kind of thegrowth that we've had and, you
know, how Dr.
Drell and I have kind of workedon this project, it's been a
passion project.
I mean, she's very supportive.
You know, she understands thatthis takes up a significant
amount of my time.
Uh, you know, but I but I um Ihaven't had any pushback, you

(12:55):
know, it's only been support allthe way.
So it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_02 (12:58):
Well, I have one final human side stor question,
and that is if if mushrooms failtomorrow, what would you hope
people remembered about what youguys are trying to do?

SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
I think for me, you know, Steve and I have this kind
of saying that that he basicallycame up with.
It's it's bridging or bringingEastern medicine to a Western
lifestyle.
And so, you know, we believe inthat.
And so what I would like forpeople to get out of this, even
if this completely fails, islook for those alternatives,
right?
Look for the other things.

(13:31):
Focus in on, because we justdon't talk about when we go out
and talk to people publicly, wedon't talk just about mushnoom.
We talk about weight loss, wetalk about exercise, we talk
about meditation being able tolower your blood pressure.
We talk about yoga, we talkabout all of those things.
We talk about stress, um, youknow, we talk about all of those
things.
And we we have studies that weshare with people about you know

(13:54):
what chronic stress does, youknow, to you and things like
that.
So it's not just about mushroomsfor us, it's the total picture
in terms of people living ahealthier lifestyle, number one,
but also being able to improvetheir quality of life.
That's the at the end of theday, I'm I'm much older than Dr.
Gandhu, right, than Siva.

(14:15):
So for me, it's about waking upin the morning and feeling good
and having that quality of lifethat that I want.
I want other people to be ableto have that as well.

SPEAKER_02 (14:25):
And Dr.
Gandu, any you want to jump inon that question about what you
hope people take away andremember if it fails?

SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
No, I think, you know, Dr.
Gerrell said it best and tosupplement that, you know, one
of the key fundamental pillarsof this company was as a
supplement company, we're gonnabe deeply rooted with educating
the community all together.
And and then and communityeducation for us, as he said, is
you know, providing not only theresource, but the giving giving

(14:54):
people the opportunity tounderstand that how much of
their health care is actuallydependent on their choices and
their lifestyle, you know, andand how much of their own
quality of life is actuallydependent on, you know, things
like what's in your pantry,right?
I I like to say, you know, yourpantry should be your pharmacy.

(15:16):
Right?
So so that's you know.
I I I definitely think that'show we've moved through this.
We're we're in our initialstages, but you know, we've
fundamentally done those thingsright.
We're continuing to do thosethings, and we want to be able
to make a larger uh or have alarger outreach with some of

(15:38):
this educational material.

SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
So so now let's get into the science.
For my listeners who don't havemedical backgrounds, what
exactly makes mushrooms morethan a food?

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
So if you were to look at, you know, most people
look at mushrooms as a culinary,you know, it's it's it's a food
source.
People look at it as a delicacydepending on the type of
mushroom that you're dealingwith.
We have understood actually formany, many decades now that
mushrooms do more than justprovide us a good source of
vitamin D and provide us with,you know, good nutrients and

(16:12):
macronutrients, right?
If you actually kind of lookback into it, and Dr.
Drell was the one that actuallymentioned this to me early on.
There was a medication back inthe day called Lovastatin, which
is one of the first medicationsthat pharmaceutical companies
came out with to reduce yourcholesterol levels.
And now we're in kind of thefurther generations and we have

(16:34):
a torvostatin and resuvastatin,et cetera.
But lovastatin was essentiallyone of the first drugs.
And if you look at the origin ofwhere that drug comes from, it
actually comes from the oystermushroom.
So it's not like thepharmaceutical companies and NIH
and scientists around the worldhave been oblivious to the fact
that mushrooms have a medicinalvalue.

(16:57):
It's just a matter of awarenessand kind of getting people to
understand how these compoundswork.
The cool part about mushrooms isevery single species somehow has
different compounds anddifferent bioactives that work
in the body at a cellular levelin different physiological

(17:18):
mechanisms.

SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Which gets me to my next question.
And that is can you break downthe key components?
Now, you know, I've done myhomework and I may botch uh
saying these, but you know, asI'm seeing it, you have beta
glucans, dry terpenes,ergothionine, and and
cordycepins.

(17:40):
So and I know I'm probablysaying them incorrectly.

SPEAKER_03 (17:43):
That's actually pretty good.
Yeah, you did a great job.

SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
So if you if you were to break them down and tell
me why each of those matter, umor do they?

SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Yeah, no, they they really do matter.
That's that's what makes anextract an extract.
Right?
So if you were to eat if youwere to eat a mushroom, if you
were to just take it from, youknow, pick it up, wash it, and
eat it, you wouldn't get thebioactive compounds in a readily

(18:14):
absorbable format.
In fact, you wouldn't absorb anyof the bioactive compounds.

unknown (18:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Yeah.
So mushrooms have a really,really tight and rigid cell
wall, and it's made out ofsomething called chitin.
So to break the bonds of chitinand free and liberate the
bioactive molecules, you have totake it through an extraction
process.

SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
So cooking it doesn't break it down.

SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
Cooking it could break it down to some degree
because you're applying heat.
Wow.
But it's not, it's not enough tobreak down the bioactives.
You'll get your macronutrients,you'll get your vitamin D,
you'll get your carbohydrates,your healthy carbs, but you're
not gonna you're not gonnaabsorb the bioactives per se.

SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
You guys really got me interested here now because I
thought I thought that you couldget these components by a
cooking process.
You're telling me I can't.
I love that.
Why is is one better than theother?
Is a beta glucan better than acordycepin?
Let's break it downbiologically.

SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Aaron Powell I think I think the way that we would
look at it, because what happensis that when you start looking
at the science of, and this issomething that I've seen, you
know, for so long, you know, andbeing in the office talking to
patients, you know, the scienceis important for us, but there's
an easier approach that we takewhen we talk to customers or
whatever.
We break it down based on theindividual extracts that we're

(19:44):
looking at.
So we would look at cordyceps,cordyceps, we'd look at lion's
mane, we'd look at rishi, we'dlook at those three separately
because they each do differentthings.
There's some overlap with them,but when you start looking at,
for instance, cordyceps andyou're talking about cordyceps.
When you're talking aboutbeta-glucans and you're looking
at things like rishi, it couldbe that the triterpenes are more

(20:06):
important for certain things.
It could be that thepolysaccharides, for instance,
there's something that's calledPSK, which is in basically all
of them, right?
So for certain things, it may bethe PSK that we've studied or
that's been studied that does,you know, this.
So we like to keep it as simpleas possible.
And when I'm out there talkingto people, we can explain to

(20:26):
them, yes, you know, there's thebeta glucans, all of this, and
the percentages and all of thatstuff.
That is key for us as a companybecause we want to be that first
company that is telling you wehave this percentage of
cordycepin in our cordycepsextract.
Ours, we think, is better than,you know, the other companies or
whatever.
So we want to take it to thatlevel where there is

(20:48):
standardization with those verysame things that you're talking
about.

SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Is there a component or a compound that's more
important or more exciting foryou guys one over the other?

SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
So the way I would the way I would phrase this is
each of the compounds of themushroom.
So if you were to look atcordyceps, you got cordycepin,
polysaccharides, and you haveanother compound called
adenosine that's found inabundance.
In lion's mane, you have two bigcompounds, her hercinones and
uranicines, which fall under thecategory of basically your

(21:22):
terpenoids, but that's howthey're broken up.
You call it and call them the Hcompounds and the E compounds.
And then you also havepolysaccharides and beta-glucans
in the lion's mane.
And in the Rishi, you have whatthey call ganoderic acid, which
is the terpene, and you havebeta glucans.
So beta-glucans are essentiallyin all three varieties, but the

(21:45):
concentration of beta-glucansare gonna be highest in your
rate red rishi.
Your concentration ofpolysaccharides are typically
gonna be higher in yourcordyceps and in your lion's
mane.
But you're still gonna have asmall polysaccharide content in
your rishi.
Now, when science looked atthese compounds, there were some

(22:07):
scientists around the world thatwent and studied what they call
the entire extract.
So they take the cordycepsmushroom, for example, and some
of them just did a what do theycall a water-soluble extract.
So then they put this cordycepsmushroom in um high temperature
water for a period of time, andthen they get the extract.

(22:27):
And then they studied what theycall the full spectrum extract.
So that full spectrum extractnow has cordycepin, some content
of adenosine, it's gotpolysaccharides, it's got beta
glucans, all in that littlewater mixture.
Then you had other scientiststhat took that same extract and
then they broke it down.
They said, well, what did thecordycepin specifically do?

(22:51):
And then what did the adenosinespecifically do?
And what did the polysaccharidesspecifically do?
So now each of them have theirown benefits in the body.
So if you were to ask me about aspecific compound that interests
us, I would definitely say incordyceps it is that cordycepin

(23:12):
molecule.
In lion's mane, it is thatiranosine molecule.
And in red rishi, it is thatganoderic acid molecule.
But I think we're too early inscience to also understand how
would that cordycepin behave inyour body if it didn't have the

(23:33):
polysaccharide accompanying it?

SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
Is it fair to look at where you are now with your
knowledge base saying that oneof the components is more
important for the immune systemversus the inflammatory response
versus cancer versus cognitivehealth?
Do you guys have that level ofevidence?

SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yes.
Yes.
I go back to my originalstatement, uh, Keith, because
here's I'm a simple guy, right?
And so what I mean by that isthat the the goal of this is to
get this out into the communityand to get it out into people,
right?
And so what I try to do when Italk to people about this is
make it as simple as possible,right?

(24:13):
Gotcha.
So, you know, an individual whoI recommend for them to take
cordyceps, right?
I'm looking at cordyceps in itstotality, right?
I'm not as concerned if it's thecordycepin, if it's the PSK
that's doing this specifically.
That's more of aresearch-oriented model, so to
speak, right?
What my customer is caring aboutis, Doc, why are you suggesting

(24:37):
that I take this cordyceps?

SPEAKER_03 (24:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:40):
And, you know, maybe they do have some concern about
how it works.
I can explain to them how itworks, right?
But I think what Siva is sayingis that we do have evidence that
says Cordyceppin does this,Cordycepin does this.
However, what we don't havetotal evidence of is does it
100% do this without the PSK,right?

(25:02):
In terms of that extract.
That is, I think, what he wasalluding to, kind of the the
next frontier with this.
That's one of the things that wewant to do.
So if you were to ask me rightnow, do I believe that an
extract that has a large amountor the highest percentage of
cordycepin in it, a cordycepsextract, if that's going to help
your blood pressure, I would sayyes.

(25:23):
Is it going to help it more thananother extract that has less or
a lot or a smaller percentage ofcordycepin?
I would say yes, right?
Based on our studies, based onwhat we know.
But we're not there yet where wecan standardize it.
That's one of the things that wewant to do.
That's the next frontier thatwe're headed for.

SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Yeah, I think you guys are on to something, Dr.
When you were talking about thepharmaceutical companies who I
used to work for.
You gave a great analogy of howa blood pressure medication was
a precursor for was a precursorfor a pretty popular
cholesterol.

SPEAKER_01 (25:59):
The cholesterol.
Now moisture mushrooms are low.

SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
Yes.
Going forward, do you seepharmaceuticals being
complementary or competitors towhat you guys might be bringing
to the marketplace?

SPEAKER_00 (26:10):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I would say I think it's if ifwe take the steps that we are
planning on taking with thiscompany, I think it becomes a
complementary approach.
Now, where and and competitionis, I guess, always kind of, you
know, there's other companiesthat could potentially be
wanting to do what we're doing,right?

(26:31):
And they're completely allowedto sure.

SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
And I'm sure they this might generate some.

SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Right.
So, you know, at the end of theday, for us, I think it's more I
think it's more fruitful toapproach this in the sense that
with with the amount of science,the research, and the evidence
that we're kind of putting intothis process, if we are able to
encourage other people to takethese same steps and create

(26:59):
products with the same level ofintegrity, then sure.
That means that there's onlybetter supplements out there for
more people to take.

SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
I think you guys are onto something pretty, pretty,
pretty massive.

SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
Keith, just to touch on one of the things that you
were kind of mentioning, if welook at our studies, and this is
what Siva was talking about, ifwe're looking at PSK, let's take
that as an example, right?
We have a lot of studies thatshow when we're talking about
using these extracts asadjuvants, right, along with
conventional medical therapy forthe treatment of cancer.

(27:30):
Right.
The the greatest amount of datathat we have is with PSK, right?
So obviously, if you're lookingat one of the extracts, you'd
want to you'd want to look atthe extracts that have the
largest amount of PSK.
If you're going to utilize theextracts as an adjuvant, you
know, for conventional medicaltherapy when you're talking
about treating cancer.

(27:51):
So we have numerous studies thatshow if we're using, for
instance, rishi would be anexample of one, that if we're
using that along withconventional medical therapy as
an adjuvant, that we'll see anumber of really great and
positive results with bothgastric, with gastric, prostate,
ovarian, breast, and colorectalcancer.

(28:12):
And so the what we've seen withthe studies is that individuals
who have taken this supplementalong with conventional medical
therapy, they've seen not onlyan increase in survival, they've
seen an improvement in theirquality of life, and they've
also tolerated treatment better.
Okay.
And so if I break that down on ascientific level like you were
talking about, you'd say, well,why?

(28:33):
We'd say it's probably the PSKin there.

SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
That's what the studies show.
Aaron Powell What's the biggestscientific misconception about
mushrooms that people may haveabout mushrooms?

SPEAKER_01 (28:43):
What would you say to that?
Aaron Powell Well, I think thaton a basic level, the one thing
that it was kind of funny, I Iread this probably about maybe
three weeks ago, two or threeweeks ago.
We were brought up to think thatwe were probably more like
plants as humans, and we'reactually more like mushrooms,
right?
Because we can share up to 50%of the same DNA that mushrooms

(29:04):
have, right?
So looking at that and startingfrom that and kind of
extrapolating back if you if youwill, then I'm not really
surprised that these mushroomscan do all of the things that
we've been seeing them do,right?
That's a big thing.
Help to lower our bloodpressure, you know, help to
lower our cholesterol, you know,those kinds of things.
You know, help to lower ourblood sugar, boost that ATP

(29:27):
production, you know, thosetypes of things.

unknown (29:28):
Dr.

SPEAKER_02 (29:29):
Gandu, I want to I want to bring you in on this,
but I want to rely on your livedexperience.
You have both training on theEastern side and the western
side.
Same question to you.
What's the biggest misconceptionthat exists on the Western side
and the eastern side as itrelates to mushrooms?

SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Well, you know, the the way I would look at it on
the western side, there'sthere's always been so much kind
of what we call pushback, andand people don't want to accept
supplements as a whole as acategory.
People that do hear Mushrooms interms of supplements.
Today I get a lot of peopletalking about psilocybin.

(30:06):
Bring up I bring up mushroomsand they're like, You have
shrooms.
It's like I have I havefunctional shrooms, not
dysfunctional shrooms.
You know, there's a big cleardemarcation.
I know there's a lot of researchthat's going around behind
psilocybin as a whole, and youknow, I think it will definitely
help us in terms of depressionand treatment-resistant

(30:28):
depression and schizophrenia,psychosis, and that's a whole
different conversation.
But the mushrooms that, youknow, we work with lion's mane,
rishi, cordyceps, um, we'llstart working with turkey tail,
these mushrooms as a whole, umthey they're starting to be
accepted, especially by theintegrative oncologists and

(30:49):
integrative medicine folks.
For for a large reason that,one, we know that they're safe.
They've been used for centuries,and we have documentation over
the that period of time as tothe benefits and you know the
side effects and who it's workedfor.
And then over the last fewdecades, we actually have a lot
of scientific data that's beenposted on PubMed and NIH.

(31:10):
And so the safety profile isquite adequate, right?
And so from we always get aquestion, hey, I'm on, I'm on
these meds, you know, can I takemushrooms?
You know, the standard here thatI tell people is look, if you're
if you have an autoimmunedisease, I would definitely
check with your doctor.
Because we don't understandautoimmunity as a whole, as

(31:31):
physicians in the medical world.
We're starting to understandmore and more of it.
And even the treatments gearedbehind it are something that
everybody's invested in rightnow, biologics, right?
So when you look at autoimmunedisease as a whole, your body's
immunity is naturally occurring,but naturally affecting you.
So in that process, mushroomscan sometimes worsen how the

(31:55):
body attacks itself becausemushrooms can down or upregulate
and downregulate your immunitybased on what you need, right,
in a normal person.
So if you're in a high stressscenario, the mushrooms will
upregulate your immunity to helpyou combat the high stress
scenario.
If you're in a low stressscenario, your mushrooms will
actually help you, you know,kind of downregulate and you

(32:17):
know, uh and kind of smooththings out per se.

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
But only if you're taking it in the the way that
you guys are extracting it.
You just can't go out and buyit.
Okay.
Because, you know, I for me as alay person, the biggest
misconception that I walked intois that, you know, ah, mushrooms
are just some plant you put onfor taste.
You know, a lot of people nowunderstand that it has

(32:41):
anoxidation properties for you,right?
I didn't know antioxidants.
Yeah, and I I I equate thembefore this conversation with
blackberries and blueberries,because blackberries are good in
antioxidants, then and so nowthat I'm hearing what you guys
say, um, you know, I I would betthat there are a ton of

(33:02):
misconceptions about mushrooms,and there's so many different
types of mushrooms, and we'llget into that when we get to the
supply side conversation.
And so let me just ask thisfinal scientific question before
we go on is do mushrooms have,are there any limitations that
you see kind of?

SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
I mean, from a limitation perspective, I would
say this isn't this isn't acure, right, that we're talking
about for your chronic medicaldisease, right?
This is something that canpotentially prevent the onset of
chronic medical disease bygiving you some benefit to your
lifestyle so that you're able tobe more active.

(33:41):
You have less artropathy orjoint pain, you have less
fatigue, you know, your gutfeels better, your digestion is
occurring better, you're notconstipated, you're not having
significant issues with, youknow, bowel.
And, you know, that's thencausing you to eat bad and you
know, not have timely eatinghabits.
It'll allow you to sleep better.

(34:03):
And you we all know theimportance of sleep.
So I think when you look at thecategory that you know the
mushrooms have their benefit in,you know, you have to take it
for that.
We are not here at this pointtoday to say, well, you have
really bad hypertension.

(34:24):
Well, we're gonna cure yourblood pressure issues with
cordyceps.

SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
So here I was thinking you guys had a
curative.

SPEAKER_01 (34:30):
No, I I think to to kind of to kind of piggyback on
what Steve is saying, uh, Keith,the way I would look at it is
this, right?
So as physicians, we're treatingour patient, right?
And so we're also looking at ourpatient's family history.
Yeah.
Right?
So let's take the scenario thatI have a 20-year-old male who
comes into my office and or whenI was in private practice and I

(34:52):
tell and he talks to me and hesays, I have a family history of
diabetes, I have a history,family history of high blood
pressure, I also have a familyhistory of stroke, right?
And heart disease.
And I examine him, look at hisblood pressure.
Let's say his blood pressure isborderline.
And then I can sit down and havea conversation with him.
In years past, I would havesaid, okay, let's put you on
some lasanopril, let's get youexercising, let's get your

(35:15):
weight down.
Now I can go and sit down withhim and say, you know what?
I have this mushroom extract.
It's called cordyceps.
Let's see if we can get you onthat.
It's gonna boost your energy,right?
It can potentially lower yourcholesterol, and maybe we can
prevent you from ever having togo on medication for your blood
pressure.
Because once I put you on thatmedication, guess what else I

(35:36):
have to do?
I have to watch your kidneyfunction.
Oh, and by the way, guess what?
This cordyceps can help preserveyour kidney function over a long
period of time, right?
Now, I've done that, and here'swhat happened.
Remember, I talked aboutownership.
So now I have that individualwho now walks out of my office,
he feels really good.
He goes home, he talks to hiswife, and he says, Boy, honey,

(35:57):
you know what?
I really like that guy, Dr.
Jarrell.
He's kind of smart, right?
He gave me this knack calledcordyceps, right?
And man, it's gonna do all thesegreat things for me.
So then I see him back a monthlater in the office, and his
blood pressure is good, he'sworking out, he's feeling really
good.
Boom, his quality of life hasimproved, right?
So that's how I see this, but wegot to get there, right?

(36:18):
Which means we need the we needthe data and we need to get
enough of those people who, likeSiva said, already have high
blood pressure so we canconvince the community that this
stuff really works.

SPEAKER_02 (36:31):
I'm gonna pontificate for a second.
I think you guys are ontosomething.
I I think the data will come.
I think you're gonna find outsome surprises.
And Dr.
Gandu, you might you might endup curing some stuff, and it's
not so much, you know, I I I I II think that's even if we don't
have the cure right away,prevention is the cure.

SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
Prevention is the key.

SPEAKER_02 (36:50):
And you know, and so I I think that so now we're
gonna go into the marketplacekind of uh question section
here.
And so, you know, when you youknow the mushroom market has
exploded, right?
There are a lot of people usingit.
You got powders, coffees,gummies.
How do you carve out credibilityin a noisy field like this?
Now we're getting into theblocking and tackling in the

(37:12):
marketplace.

SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Yeah, I think I think what happened was when one
of the things that was veryimportant for Siva and myself as
physicians, right?
You know, my family members, myfriends, they contact me.
Hey, you know, I'm dealing withthis, you know, what do you
think about it?
And the general public justlooks at physicians in a very
general way, right?
I get people call me aboutorthopedic problems, they call

(37:35):
me about, you know, cancer orwhatever, and sometimes they
call me about their kids, youknow, and sometimes I I don't do
this stuff, right?
But they trust us, right?
And they want to trust theirphysicians.
So, you know, we take that veryseriously.
And so when we started this, wesaid, first of all, we have to
have the best product that wecould possibly have out there,

(37:56):
right?
Because that's what the publicexpects us to have, right?
So how do we do that?
Well, we get our studies done,right?
We do our review of the studiesand we've done it, you know,
just extensive review of thestudies.
The second thing is that we takeour product through the best
extraction process that wepossibly can.
And then remember I talked aboutstandardization.

(38:18):
We want to be the individualsthat when you look at our
packaging, you know exactlywhat's in there, right?
You know exactly how it's beentested, and yes, you talk about
competition, we're ready for thecompetition because we're gonna
put everybody, as the kids say,on blast with this, right?
Why don't you why don't you haveyour information right on the

(38:38):
packaging so people can readabout it, right?
Why don't you tell the generalpublic how much cordycepin is in
your cordyceps, right?
How much beta glucans is inthere, right?
Why don't you have that?
Because it's not available.
And so one of the one of thedownsides that we've seen, and
not to go off on anybody thatthat's that's producing product,

(38:59):
but what we've seen is we'veseen where you can go into a
store and you can purchase ninedifferent extracts and you take
them and study them.
And if they're all supposed tobe lion's mane, some of those
extracts don't have lion's manein them.
I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
It's like vitamins, right?
You know, it's yes.

SPEAKER_01 (39:17):
So one of the, you know, I'm different than Siva in
that I've never taken an extractbefore in my life, right?
And or supplement.
And the reason that I didn't doit was because honestly, I
didn't trust them.
There was no data.
I didn't know what I was goingto be taking.
So I'm on lion's mane andcordyceps, and my family cannot
believe I'm taking the twobecause they're like, boy, you
must really believe in thisstuff because you wouldn't take

(39:39):
anything before.

SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
That's a that's a good that's a hell of an
endorsement, which then gets medown to to the customers.
Your current customer base.
Because you guys are on a on ahaving worked in the
pharmaceutical industry, youknow, you got to be careful with
promoting certain claims beforeyou start getting the you know
the regulators after you.
But your current customers, arethey buying it for wellness or

(40:04):
are they buying it for medicalapplications everywhere?
And I and that's a setupquestion because I'm sure
they're buying it after yourecommend it, Dr.
Jarrell.
But your initial customers, andI'm sure you have some that buy
without even speaking to eitherone of you, do you think they're
buying it for wellness or for amedical application?

SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Well, here's the way that I've always approached
everyone, right?
So if you were to ask me, Keith,you know, about the supplements,
about our extracts, right?
My question to you would be tellme one or one to three things
that you would want toaccomplish by taking a
supplement in general.
Is that a medical issue likehigh blood pressure, diabetes

(40:47):
that you'd want some support orhelp with, right?
Not a cure, as Steva said, butto some help and support with.
Or is it, you know, I'm feelingfatigued all the time,
lethargic, boy, I've got, youknow, back pain and these kinds
of things, you know?
And so that's how I approach it,right?
Because I want to know, youknow, what is our customer

(41:08):
looking for?
Gives me a lot of insight intothat, right?
And I, you know, he can I canshare that with him and we can,
you know, know how to positionourselves, so to speak.
But I think people are takingthe supplements for various
reasons, right?
So it's not always, you know,what I think, or it's not always
a medical issue.
It could be, boy, doc, I'm notsleeping at night, right?

(41:28):
I'm under a lot of stressbecause my job is driving me
crazy, or something justhappened to one of my family
members.
Real life stuff, right?
And so the beauty of thesemushrooms that we found out is
that it can encompass all ofthose things, right?
So in the last year, we'velearned so many different ways
that the mushrooms can beutilized believable.

(41:51):
And the reason I've learned thatis because my customers come to
me and they say, Do you havesomething for this?
And I go, sometimes I go, Idon't know.
Let me go check the literature.

SPEAKER_00 (42:00):
Okay.
And then a lot of the times wewe also have customers that
would have started taking, youknow, line's mane for, you know,
a cognitive, you know,improvement or you know, for
focus and clarity.
And they come back to us andthey say, you know, I used to
have really bad joint pains.
And, you know, my mobility isbetter, and my, you know, my

(42:21):
joints don't feel as inflamed.
And then you start seeing thatyou know, there is some
literature that supports thefact that, you know, for
example, line's mainpolysaccharides and line's mane
can actually help with thatinflammation.

SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
You know, I I No, go ahead.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
So I I think I think you know, it's it's it's
interesting for us to see mostpeople approach this from a
wellness standpoint when they'reyounger.
And we have a category ofindividuals that we, you know,
sell to.
They're they're olderindividuals, and they approach
it from a different standpoint,right?
They're yes, they're looking atit from the I already have the

(43:03):
disease.
Now what else can I do?
Because my doctor's got me onall these meds.
What else can I do?
Right.
So you have that subset, andthen you also have the young
30-year-olds and 25-year-oldsthat don't have any medical
issues, but they're just focusedon really prevention.

SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Yeah.
Or they're focused on performingbetter at their job, right?
Like more clarity, more focus ontheir job, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 (43:26):
Now, this is an interesting question.
You're two medically traineddoctors.
Are you upset if the wellnessside of this business takes off
and the so-called scientificstudies that you guys are
talking about lags behind?

SPEAKER_00 (43:39):
No.
I I would say, I I would saybecause one compliments the
other.
Right.
Yeah, here's what happens,right?

SPEAKER_01 (43:46):
So um, and I'll I'll give you a prime example, right?
A young lady um came to me andshe said, you know, and and
everybody calls me doc.
So when I say doc, that's whateverybody calls me, right?
So she says, Doc, you know, doyou have anything to help me
with menopause?
Right.
And so I usually try to askpeople, do you have any other

(44:06):
medical problems?
So I asked her, Do you have anyother medical problems?
Are you taking medication foranything?
And she kind of smiled at me andsaid, No.
I said, Well, let's try you onLion's mane, right?
So I saw her back two weekslater.
She says, Doc, this is greatstuff.
My hot flashes are better, youknow, my irritability is, you
know, down to basically zero.
You know, my husband lovesliving with me now, right?

(44:29):
And uh, so I said, fantastic.
She says, I need some more ofthat lion's mane.
It's good stuff, right?
So two weeks later, he and I, orabout maybe a month later, he
and I are at the farmer's marketin Nash County, and uh, this
young lady is there.
So she walks up to both of usand she says, Doc, by the way,
does this stuff lower your yourblood sugar?

(44:50):
And I went, Oh my gosh, you gotdiabetes, don't you?
And she says, Oh yeah, I'm onsuch and such and such and such.
I said, Well, what happened?
She said, Well, my bloodpressure went down to 50 after I
started taking this.
And I said, Oh boy.
So that's a prime example of Ithink what Steve's talking
about, right?
People may start it for onereason, but they may see another

(45:10):
benefit.
Now, what that actually taughtus was that we got to be a lot
more careful.
We talk to people and do more,you know, more uh ask them more
questions about, you know, whatthey're taking, you know, and
whatnot.
But but that's an example ofhow, you know, we can combat two
different problems, right?
So her quality of life wasimproved with this, right?

(45:31):
Her relationship with herhusband was improved, right?
Her sleep, you know, the all thethings that you can see with
menopause, right?
And oh, by the way, happened tohelp her blood sugar.
As a follow-up to that, she wasable to get off of her
metformin.
She's still on a uh uh, I thinkOZIP or something like that.
No, she's on Zetbound, but shewas able to get off of her of
her metformin utilizing thelion's main.

SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
So what's the most difficult part in the
marketplace now when we startthinking about growth?
You have you guys have uhintimate knowledge, but would
you say that you've penetratedthe U.S.
market and I'm only you knowkeeping it to the US market,
then we can go global if we wantto.
Would you say the use ofmushrooms is at 10%, 20%, 30%?

(46:18):
Um and to grow that, what do youthink it requires?
So, first question, what do youthink the penetration level is
today versus what's required togrow it?

SPEAKER_00 (46:28):
I would say honestly, looking at some of our
marketing data, I would say thepenetration lies somewhere
between five to ten percent.
That's it.
Wow.
Yeah, in terms of in terms ofthe people that are actually
your dot bottom of the funnelconsumers.
I think from a top of the funnelperspective, I think the

(46:49):
penetration's probably closer totwenty percent.
This is it, I think it'sdefinitely growing.
And you know, when you look atall the market analysis and the
market data, there's asignificant growth um with the
mushroom industry over the nexttwo decades.
The United States being themecca of consumer product goods

(47:10):
and consumer behavior.

SPEAKER_03 (47:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
Whatever, if if mushrooms do well here, they
will do well globally.

SPEAKER_03 (47:18):
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
And so, and it's a very interesting phenomena
because India, so I I trained, Iwent to medical school in India.
And so, you know, um, Ayurvedaand holistic health is something
that's been deeply rooted in ourculture for centuries, right?
And it's so funny that youactually see the Indian

(47:40):
government putting more moneyinto the Ayurvedic systems now
after the West has started toadapt to integrative practices
in Ayurveda and holistic health.
You know, it's just it's it'sjust the way the world works,
right?
And so our goal is definitely totake to be a global brand, to

(48:01):
have supplements that we'recatering to different
populations around the world.
We started with the UnitedStates primarily because this is
a really good marketplace for usto test.
And is and and the beauty aboutAmerica is it's so
multicultural.

SPEAKER_02 (48:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:16):
You know, and so you're actually.
You know, so we can actually seewhat the benefits are kind of
across the board.
You know, how does it affectCaucasians?
How does it affect AfricanAmericans?
How does this actually affectHispanic populations, et cetera?
And and you you have you havethe sample size right here in
front of you, right?
So for us even to do researchfrom a clinical perspective in

(48:40):
the long run, this is the bestplace to do it.

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
And may I ask the product that you guys are
selling, is it in pill form?
Is it something you sprinkleover your cereal, put in your
coffee?
How what what's the intakeprocess?

SPEAKER_00 (48:52):
Yeah, we have capsules at this time.
We also have powder in sachets.
The sachets are dosed per day,so it basically just slides out.
I wish I brought some here so Icould show you.
And it's like a little packet oflike Splenda, right?
You just open it up and put itin your food, your smoothie,
your drink, your coffee,whatever it may be.
The capsules, you know, it'sit's very on the go.

(49:13):
The containers are very small.
You get about 50 capsules perunit.
And we will very soon be havingliquid, and the liquid will be
even more portable and you know,travel friendly.
Two, our liquid is gonna bevery, very superior.
We're gonna have a nanoemulsified liquid.
So we will have our bioactivesin a nanomolecule.

(49:35):
So that means they're veryreadily absorbable, and
essentially you can have alesser dose and feel the same
effect.

SPEAKER_02 (49:42):
Well, let me ask you this.
Seth, thank you for that.
And I and I hope my listenersare listening to that.
Do you think that the market isoversaturated?
I mean, I said that markets haveexploded, but when I listen to
your penetration numbers, we'renot even close to that.
But do you think there arecertain overhyped brands that

(50:03):
will dilute trust?

SPEAKER_01 (50:05):
Yeah, I do.
And this is kind of what I wasalluding to before.
So when we decided to do this,right, there was a certain way
that we wanted to do it.
And it was a scientific way.
It was a way that we feltphysicians should do this,
right?
And so again, having that bestproduct out there, right, means
that you have to kind of go outon a limb to kind of change the

(50:27):
norm, so to speak, right?
And you know, you can uplift therest of the individuals out
there if they want to kind ofcome along with you.
And so, you know, it was verydisheartening for me to see when
we started looking at ourtesting versus, you know, other
brands that were out there.
And then when we first startedthis to see, you know, products
that didn't even have, forinstance, lines made in it.

(50:49):
So we knew that people werebuying these products,
reportedly getting, you know,benefits from them.
And some of the products that weknew that were out there on the
market, we looked at them andsaid, boy, they're they're not
very good.
So the other part, I think, tothis that we also have to
understand is that it's not justus doing this in the medical
community.

(51:10):
If you look at integrativeoncology and you go across the
country and you look at greatplaces like Sloan Kettering, you
look at great places like MDAnderson, they all have
integrative oncologydepartments, right?
And they're looking at thesethings, you know, completely on
a day-to-day-to-day basis.
So things that happen, and I'm alittle bit older than Siva, so

(51:32):
I've seen a lot of changes inthe medical community.
And generally they come fromwithin, but they start very
small and they kind of build,right?
So these integrative oncologistsare pushing everybody else
that's out there, right, to say,hey, you need to start looking
at these mushrooms, you need tostart looking at other herbs and
natural products, right?

(51:52):
Because we're doing all we canwith chemotherapy, you know, to
fight colorectal cancer andthings like that.
So I think it's there's amovement that's kind of starting
within the medical community,being spurred by the integrative
oncologists that we can tap intoas well.

SPEAKER_00 (52:09):
And you know, to kind of add to what you had
asked in terms of othercompanies that could potentially
be killing the reputation ofthese mushrooms altogether,
right?
And you know, one one thing thatour our company, JG and Biotech,
our motto is setting a standard,right?
Setting the new standard, right?
And and so what that actually,you know, from a superficial

(52:30):
level, that that refers to thefact that we care about
standardization.

unknown (52:34):
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
From a much more deeper level, what that refers
to is pushing the agenda to getother companies to actually do
the same thing that we do,right?
And try to get try let's let'sas a whole, let's as as a whole
come to a point where we're youknow delivering the top-notch
products.

(52:55):
Now, the the companies that arealready out there that might be
making millions and millions ofdollars because they're in large
retail stores and et cetera, youknow, there's always you're a
businessman and you youunderstand you know the whole
concept of you know the earlyadopters.
Yes.
And then you have the chasm.
Mm-hmm.
And what and the chasm, thechasm can be deadly.

(53:16):
And then and then you wanna youwant to catch the wave.
So we we truly, we truly feellike we're we're coming into
this business, coming in withthe focus and the fundamentals
where we're going to be able tocatch that wave.
I do feel like the companiesthat have been out there in the
market, they did catch on to theearly adapters.
And the early adapters in thissegment seem to have a lot of

(53:38):
say, and I feel like socialmedia and you know media outlets
as a whole have helped kind ofpenetrate and get that
penetration going and awarenessgoing in terms of what mushrooms
can do for you.
But if you still go, you know,to rural America where you know
a vast majority of ourpopulation lives, it's it's you

(54:00):
know, one in ten people thatmight actually know what these
compounds and these you knowmushrooms are about, right?
Altogether, the differentspecies of mushrooms, they're
not even asking me aboutpsilocybin.
They're just like, well, Ithought mushrooms were just
those little things you get atthe grocery store, right?
So, you know.
So that's that's why I say I itmight sound like an
underapproximation in terms of,you know, those percentages, but

(54:22):
that's why I truly feel like itit's we're still early, but
we're we're doing everything tocatch that wave.

SPEAKER_01 (54:28):
Well, you know, I think you got but what but just
one yeah, just one thing.
The other problem that I see isjust what we were talking about
earlier, right?
The companies that are out therenow are focusing on one or two
things, right?
And they're only looking at whatI think is about maybe one
percent of the capabilities ofthese products.
So there's nobody talking abouthow this can be used to support

(54:51):
high blood pressure.
There's nobody talking about howthis can be used to support
individuals that are undergoingtreatment for cancer.
There's nobody talking about howthis can be used to support our
diabetics out here, our peoplewith heart disease and high
cholesterol, right?
This is the majority of ourpopulation in this country,
right?
So, you know, as a physician,you know, my focus is going to

(55:11):
be different.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
Yeah.
And and when we would honestlybe doing people an injustice if
we didn't talk about the supportthat this has for chronic
medical disease.
And support is a key word,right?
Because we're not saying we havean anti-hypertensive, right.
Or we're not saying that wehave, right?

SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
And so so you know, I hear what you're saying, but
coming from this industry, is itthat the limitation in in
nomenclature is that they don'thave the studies to support it?
Because you guys can't go outand say anything.

SPEAKER_00 (55:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (55:43):
Right.
Well, and and as two physicians,yeah, you guys are medically
trained to answer, medi you'relooking at peer-reviewed
articles, all those kind ofthings.
And so how do you balance theneed for data and the open
market that exists for awellness company?

SPEAKER_01 (56:00):
Yeah, I think for me, um, again, it's it's all
about approach, right?
And so when I talk to people, Iwill tell them very plainly,
look, I've been doing this along time.
So when I start you onLasanopril, I don't know what
the response of your bloodpressure is going to be.
Right.
So if you are, if you haveborderline hypertension, right,

(56:22):
then yes, we may be able to tryyou on cordyceps or, you know,
whatever.
But if your blood pressure isextremely high, if it's 180 over
110, you need medication, right?
And so, you know, so I think ithas to do with how, with the
approach.
So our approach has always been,I never tell anybody, but I I
didn't tell anybody when I wasprescribing medicines or when

(56:44):
I'm prescribing medicines, thisis going to take care of your
blood pressure.
I tell them it's going to helpand it's going to help support
you, right?
Now, here's the beauty that Italked about before.
We talked about that ownership,but also I can tell them if you
take this cordyceps, maybe wecan lower your blood pressure,
right?
You might already be onamlodipine or another drug, and

(57:05):
maybe we can work towards tryingto reduce that drug, right?
Or potentially even getting youoff of the drug, right?
That's the conversation that Ihave with people, right?
But I'm able to do that on anorganic level because I am a
physician, right?
Right.
So I think that's the benefitthat we have when we look at how
we are kind of positioning ourcompany out here.

(57:27):
Again, I wouldn't be able tosleep at night from an ethical
standpoint if that I've got ahundred people taking cordyceps
and I've lowered all of theirblood pressures, right?
Then if you came to me and yousaid, Hey, Ren, you know, I I
need something for my bloodpressure, I'm gonna say, no,
don't take the cordyceps.
I'm gonna say, hey, let's trythis cordyceps.
It's an ethical issue for us.

(57:48):
And about the there's a lot ofdata that's out there, right?
There's more data than we evenknew.
And it's the same type of datathat you used to look at when
the companies that you workedfor and that you were doing on
the pharmaceutical side, thebeginning of it, right?
The in vitro studies, you know,the in vivo studies, you know,
there may be small humanstudies.

SPEAKER_02 (58:10):
I I I I guess I'll say you guys have a really great
problem.
Yes.
And the businessman in me, youknow, if there are no
regulations, I want to sell thehell out of this.
Dr.
Gandu, get it up to millions ofdollars as quickly as I possibly
can.
There are people taking it for awhole host of reasons.
As long as I don't get myself inlegal trouble, I've built a

(58:34):
wellness company that can dogood.
However, on the medical side ofthings, I bet you got how you
know, I bet you guys battlebecause you need you need
studies to support what you'resaying.
Tell me if I'm incorrect inthat, but from a company
standpoint, but from a companystandpoint, let me just get this
out.
From a company standpoint, youreally don't have restrictions

(58:57):
at this moment for the thingsthat you can talk about, do you?

SPEAKER_00 (59:00):
Right.
So we one restrictions are therewith nomenclature.
If I'm talking, if Dr.
Jarrell and I are sitting on theKey Terry podcast, the next big
thing, and we say thatcordycepin can support blood
pressure, we are not gonna getdinged by the regulators because
we're talking about why we thinkthat it can support blood
pressure.
But if I were to just takeanti-hypertensive and put that

(59:25):
on my packaging, right, withoutany of this, you know,
background knowledge, right,that I'm providing, then yes,
the regulators should by allmeans have, should by all means,
you know, have the opportunityto come and ding us for it.
And the reason I say that isbecause one, if we are going to

(59:47):
be saying it, because we knowthat our product has more
quartipin, a lot more quartipin,and a lot more polysaccharides
than our competitors do.
So if If we start putting claimsthat you know don't have
scientific randomized controldouble binded randomized control

(01:00:07):
trials to back this, right, andwe start saying antihypertensive
on our cordycep supplement, thenevery other company technically
can do the same thing too.
And guess they're stuck, youknow, they're they don't have
enough cordycepin in it.
They don't have enoughpolysaccharides in it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:23):
Well here's the here's the other thing, Keith,
and and and I'm gonna get us introuble for this, but I'm gonna
go ahead and say it, right?
There's a company, and you'veprobably seen the advertisements
that is saying that they havenature's Adderall.
So this is an example of whatSiva was talking about.
Now, here's the thing.

(01:00:43):
Earlier I said, you know, we canuse Rishi as an adjuvant to
conventional medical therapy,right?
I said that, right?
Why can I freely say that?
Because I have studies that showthat, right?
So when we are talking to peopleand we are telling them things,
I am telling them things basedon two things.
One, anecdotal evidence that wehave, and I will be very honest

(01:01:05):
with them about look, I onlyhave anecdotal evidence that
this stuff works in this way.
Scientific evidence that this ishow, for instance, cordyceps may
lower your blood pressure byworking or functioning just like
an ACE inhibitor does.
I have I have scientificevidence of that, but I don't
have human studies that I cansay, you know, we've given this

(01:01:25):
to 10,000 people and it'slowered their blood pressure.
So what I do is I explain topeople how it potentially works
and I talk to them about theanecdotal evidence that I have.
Now, when I was talking aboutRishi, that's different.
I will tell people we havestudies that show this.
So when I have those studies, Ispecifically pinpoint what the

(01:01:46):
studies are, right?
But here's the problem we haveto know those studies.
Right.
So we we do extensive work onresearching what those studies
are.
We've we're finding studiesevery week, every day.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:58):
Rishi's study that he's mentioning is 1,300
patients.
1,300 people.
Right.
You mentioned as a company, youknow, how do we plan on kind of
capturing more of this data too?
And that that that's that'ssomething that we're equally
passionate about.
And, you know, we're we we're aphysician-founded company.
We're bringing more physicianson board.
One, two, that we're hoping willhelp us set up our own.

(01:02:21):
We have we have a bare bonesteam right now for internal
clinical research.
So basically what we what weinvested in is finding
researchers that do want toactually look more into these
compounds, whether they'renephrologists, whether they're
oncologists, you know, um, taketake our extract because we're
gonna give you all the COAs, thecertificates of analysis and the

(01:02:44):
safety sheets and everythingthat you need to prove to you
that, hey, you know, you cangive this, you know, to a subset
of patients and you know, takethis through a study.
And as soon as we find, youknow, a researcher that's
interested, we will apply forthe grant and make this study
happen, but we will be hands-offin terms of we'll give you the

(01:03:06):
powder or the liquid, whicheverform you want it to study in,
right?
And you conduct the study, wedon't want any biases coming out
of this either, right?
Because that's also important.
So this is our plan.
We have different categoriesthat we're looking at.
You know, we're looking atdiabetes and diabetic kidney
disease and hypertension.
We're also looking at gastriccancer, colorectal cancer, and

(01:03:29):
seeing how we can potentiallyuse Rishi as an adjuvant to
conventional chemo and radio.
So, you know, there is a studyright now in Mayo that they're
doing with uh turkey tail andtriple negative breast cancer
for turkey tail.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:43):
Interesting.
Really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:45):
And so we're and you know, you know how that study,
how that study got started,Keith?
What what actually happened wasthere's generally a time frame
between when a female isdiagnosed with breast cancer and
she sees her surgeon, right?
And so in Eastern medicine, ifyou're diagnosed with breast
cancer, then you either get aprescription for turkey tail or
you get a prescription for Rishior both.

(01:04:07):
So what males started looking atwas during that time frame when
those women went back to seetheir surgeon and the surgeon
did follow-up mammograms orfilms, whatever, they found that
the women who were on these uhmushroom extracts, their tumors
were shrinking in the interim.

unknown (01:04:25):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:26):
So now they are believing that either that the
turkey tail should potentiallybe part of that protocol for the
treatment for women with thesethis particular type of breast
cancer.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:36):
All exciting stuff.
I mean, this is why I say youguys have a really great problem
to have.
And we're gonna we're gonnadelve into the next segment,
which is the supply chainchallenges.
But before we do that, if youhad to compare Mush Noom to
another health care comp toanother health company outside
of mushrooms, what who wouldthat company be?

(01:04:57):
That helps me to understand yourmindset.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:00):
I would at this point, I would actually say in
our supplement space, um, Iwould actually compare us to
AG1.
Um and the reason I say that isbecause they have they have a
good founding background.
They were, you know, they haveum spokespeople like uh Dr.

(01:05:23):
Andrew Huberman, um, you know,people that you know code.
That's a nice comparabledocument background.
Right.
And they their products are veryhigh quality.
You know, they they made surethey've gotten the
certifications that they need,you know, to actually you know
manufacture, get their productNSF certified, things like that.
They've done independentstudies, you know, midterm to

(01:05:46):
long-term kind of studies to seedifferent cohorts and compare
how people actually felt ontheir supplement versus people
who weren't on it.
Um, you know, it's more it's notas a specific, like category
specific supplement, right?
It's more of like a dailywellness product.

(01:06:07):
It's it's like a um you takethis, you're gonna get
prebiotics, you're gonna getprobiotics, you're gonna get
vitamins, you're gonna get f youknow, the micronutrients, you
know, so it's kind of it's kindof this 360, you know, once a
day, you know, this should helpyou with kind of everything.
Right.
But that's something where wedefer.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:26):
I love the the insight and the comparable.
You just gave a great example.
So now as we go into the supplychain, you know, mushrooms are
living organisms.
What's the hardest part ofsourcing and scaling them for
consistency?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:39):
Yeah.
So, you know, the back to kindof what we talked about in terms
of standardization, right?
This whole process of how youget a really good product, it
starts with your raw material.
And it starts with where yousource your raw material.
So nine out of ten mushroomcompanies or extract companies,
they get away with basicallysourcing this raw material from

(01:07:01):
quite uncredible, you know, whatI would say, you know, just poor
sources.
A lot of it is coming fromChina, where, you know, there
aren't the necessarycertifications in place.
Two, if it's not coming fromChina, it's it's companies that
are getting this raw materialjust based on price.

(01:07:21):
You know, so when we looked atall of our vendors, we actually
ended up our our vendor actuallyis probably the most expensive
vendor, right?
Okay.
And and so, and and I they theycan I stop you for a second,
Doc?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:34):
And and let's stay there for a second.
You talked about, because I wasgonna ask about raw material and
you brought up sourcing, and I'mjust gonna play, push back a
little bit and play devil'sadvocate.
Does it, since it's a livingorganism, does it matter?
Tell me why there is a gap inthe quality of the sourcing.

(01:07:55):
If the mushroom is grown in theground, it's grown in the
ground.
You say it's a difference inquality, tell me why how are you
looking at it?
Why should I care what you'relooking at?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:08):
One, because they're not grown in the ground.
They're grown indoors, verticalfarming.
Okay.
Right?
And so what goes into thatsubstrate?
So essentially you think of a,you know, they're grown in like
bags or even, you know, masonjars, etc., depending on the
species.
And you have what they call thesubstrate, and the substrate is
basically colonized by themushroom's roots or its neural

(01:08:31):
networks, which is the mycelia.
Then after the mycelia havecolonized the substrate, then
they grow into the part that isvisible to the naked eye, and
that is the fruiting body.
Got it.
So depending on your quality ofthe substrate, your mycelia and
your fruiting body are going tohave drastically different

(01:08:51):
qualities.
And so that that is a keydifferentiator.
There's so many companies outthere that'll say, well, we use
a fruiting body only extract,and you know, we don't use
mycelium.
All that all that only works forpeople that don't know enough
about mushroom.
Yeah, which is a lot of people.
Right.
And so so fruiting body andmycelium, this is an entire myth

(01:09:15):
that's out there.
You know, like if you go backand look at, you know, the
literature, your myceliaactually have a lot of the
bioactive components as well.
So why are you leaving that out?
One, you're leaving it outprobably because you've grown
your mycelia on substrates thatare not consumable to human to

(01:09:36):
humans.
Like so instead of growing it onyou know, rice or oats or things
that you know we can eat, theygrow it on, you know, sawdust.
You know, it's cheaper, right?
Because sawdust is much easierto procure.
Yeah.
I see your point now.
Then they say, well, we onlygive you the fruiting body.
Well, yeah, I don't want yourmycelium.

(01:09:58):
No, I I'm not trying to.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:00):
So you guys have a sourcing.
Do you guys have a sourcingproblem?
And because, you know, let'stake your where I what did I
write this down?
Let's take your 10% that youmentioned is the penetration
level.
And let's, you know, take thatup to 50% next year.
Is it can you guys source?
I mean, is there a sourcingissue?
Maybe that's uh another businessopportunity for you, but at that

(01:10:21):
point, I'm sorry, I didn't hearyou.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:23):
I said the latter, so you've already kind of nailed
it, right?
We know where the limitationswith sourcing lie.
We know that we have possiblythe best source that we can we
can have at this point, and theycan supply us, you know, up to
about, you know, five to sixtons a year, right?
Is that a lot?

(01:10:45):
I for us, looking at ourprojections, we would say that
that's not a lot.
Right?
Um looking at the marketprojections, we would say no.
But the that's one of the thingsthat we've invested a
significant amount of time into,and we are we are going to be
cultivating very soon, and we'regoing to become our own source,

(01:11:05):
and we will be and we will alsobe the source for many other
companies out there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:10):
Excellent.
I love that.
From a geographical standpoint,and I'm so glad you educated me
on this, that mushrooms aren'tgrown in the ground.
Is North America better for thisthan some other country?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:24):
How do you look at the cultivation of your So the
Chinese have historicallycultivated these mushrooms
longer than everyone has.
Which is why they can get awaywith so many things that they
can't today's market, becausethere are so many cultivators
out there in China.
In in the United States, wherecultivation of these mushrooms

(01:11:46):
has really started to, you know,take a rise over the last, I
would say, ten to fifteen years,there is fewer sources of um
mushroom growers here that aregrowing at a very, very good
quality that can be used forextraction.
In terms of a culinary purpose,there are a bunch of people that

(01:12:07):
are growing.
You know, the quality of themushroom from a culinary purpose
isn't going to changesignificantly because you're not
going to be eating the mycelium,you're eating the fruiting body,
right?
And the fruiting body itself, ifwhether it was grown on sawdust
or whether it was grown on rice,it's still going to have the
macronutrients that it needs tohave.
From a bioactive percentage,it's not.

(01:12:29):
That's where the difference is.
So when you're looking atmushrooms for nutraceuticals and
mushrooms for supplements ormushrooms to put into functional
beverages, etc., you really wantto get a source that one, we
wanted to get a source from theUnited States because consumers
like that better.
It comes with trust.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:50):
I see that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:51):
And a lower tariff, too.
And a lower tariff.
Yes.
Nowadays for sure.
And and two, you know, thecertifications.
So like we our mushrooms are USDorganic.
Our mushrooms have come from afacility that has uh BRCS
certifications.
You know, they are their kosher,they're vegan, etc.
All those certifications, sothey matter to people.

(01:13:14):
And, you know, when we looked,we I've spoken to companies from
Canada, the United States,China, Bangladesh, India, parts
of Europe.
You know, we found our oursourcing partner from
California.
You know, the one thing that Irealized, and this is why we're
so keen about cultivating, isthere is such a huge gap.

(01:13:38):
That is there.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Even even amongst your quoteunquote premium suppliers, there
is a huge gap.
And and once we're once we haveour mushrooms out, we'll have
another podcast, and then we'lltalk about the gaps that we
closed there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:55):
Walk me through the various steps.
We're talking about supplychain.
The way I think about it, allthe big companies I've worked
at, Abbott being one, theysourced their material.
They had to go in the lab, theyhad to make it.
So you're you're what just walkme through kind of uh the steps
on your supply chain.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:14):
Yeah, so sourcing of raw material happens here in the
United States.
The mushrooms get sent over toour contract manufacturer over
in India.
The contract manufacturer inIndia is then procures the
solvents.
The solvent procurement is,again, a very rigid process.
We only use pharmaceutical gradesolvents.

(01:14:34):
So whether it's the alcoholthat's being used or whether
it's the RO water that goes intoplace for the extraction
process, all of that basicallyhas to come from a
pharmaceutical source.
We undergo the manufacturingprocess in that one facility.
The manufacturing process is ourown proprietary extraction.
The IV is owned by JG andBiotech.

(01:14:56):
It was developed by us by usingthe facility's resources.
So we didn't want to, you know,make a huge capital investment
and go out and you know buy anentire factory.
We were, okay, we know what weneed in terms of equipment and
we know what we're gonna do interms of process.
So we package, bottle, label,everything there.
That's a CGMP facility.

(01:15:18):
So certified good manufacturingpractices, and we have entire
batch records, you know,everything to basically show us
our compliance to CGMP norms,and then the product gets sent
back to the United States forfulfillment.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:33):
Wow.
Thank you for that.
And uh I would assume I won'thave you talk about your the
your logistical bottlenecks, butI I like that.
So before we leave this section,one final question.
What lessons have you learnedabout scaling um and you know,
trying to scale a naturalproduct like this in a, should I

(01:15:55):
call it a pharmaceutical market?

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:56):
Yeah, I think just to touch on what Siva was saying
is that um we need to have morecontrol, right?
From the and so from acultivation standpoint, that's
an absolute must for us, right?
And so if we really want toachieve our goal, which is
standardization and we want tomake sure that we have the best
product that's available, thenwe need control from top to

(01:16:17):
bottom.
I think that's you know mytake-home message from this in
terms of what I've learned goingthrough this process, right?
So we have to start from thecultivation point and just move
forward.
Because there are things that,you know, quite honestly, Keith,
that we want to do within youknow this market that other
people aren't doing.
Like our product has no alcoholin it.
So something as simple as takingthe alcohol out, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:40):
Yeah, like distilling it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:42):
Distilling it, right.
That's that's costly for us.
But it's something that we wantto do because that opens it up,
that opens our product up to beutilized by children, right?
And also to be utilized by, youknow, adults who may have, you
know, former addiction issues orrecovery.
People of the Islamic faith.
Right.
People of Islamic faith,exactly.
So, you know, so those arethings that are really important

(01:17:02):
to us.
And so for me, you know, if I'mlooking at this from an
entrepreneurial standpoint, Iwant as much control as I can
possibly get.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:10):
Yeah.
And and you know, be working ina pharmaceutical industry, you
know that to take a drug fromideation to formulation, right?
The big word that you hear isvalidity, validity, validity.
And so to get to a point ofwhere we're validating an active
pharmaceutical ingredient, if wehave not controlled the process

(01:17:31):
end-to-end in terms of I knowthat exact, I can trace that
mushroom back to where it wasgrown and then take it to a
point where I know how muchbioactive I want in this, and
now I'm gonna get into thatfield of what we call active
pharmaceutical ingredients andAPI.
That's the long-term visionhere, right?
And that's what will transformus from a nutraceutical company

(01:17:54):
to a pharmaceutical company.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:55):
One of the big questions that I get asked all
the time is, you know, how muchof this should I take?
Right?
Should I take a gram?
Should I take two grams?
Should I take three?
Should I take four?
Should I take five?
You know, how many of you haveto do that?
And the answer is?
Well, the answer is we start atone or two, right, and we move
up because I can't tell my mycustomers exactly that data,

(01:18:16):
because I don't have the data,right?
No one, and this is what we'retalking about when we talk about
standardization.
So if you come to me and yousay, Boy, I want to take
cordyceps because I'm fatiguedor I want to boost in energy,
then I want to be able to tellyou that a gram is where we need
to start, or two grams is wherewe need to start.
And this is, you know, underthis, under these circumstances,

(01:18:38):
this is the standardization thatwe've done, just like when I was
talking about lasanopril.
Well, why is it that we start atfive milligrams or two point
five?
Depends on what we're trying toaccomplish, right?
So if I'm using lasanopril forheart failure, I might start at
2.5.
If I'm using it for bloodpressure, depending upon where
somebody's blood pressure isrunning, I might start at even
10 milligrams, right?

(01:18:58):
But that's because of thestandardization that's been
done, right, where we know whatthe dosing should be.
No one's ever done this in thisindustry at all.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:06):
Yeah, when you look at all the studies, it's one one
study was done with a watersoluble extract, right?
And the other study was donewith a methanol-based extract,
and then a third study was donewith just the dried, you know,
mushroom powder and notextracted.
So there's so manyinconsistencies, but the one

(01:19:26):
thing that you see in uniformityis the benefit, so which means
that your body readily acceptsthese compounds.
So now for us, what we're doingis, and you know, we we're super
passionate about this and wehave the resources to do it, is
the analytical chemistry behindit, and we're gonna make sure
we're having consistency acrossall our you know, our future

(01:19:47):
batches.
Once we've established thatdegree of consistency, then we
know, well, we're gonna startlooking at this from a
dose-dependent standpoint.
You know, let's start at theNVivo level.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:58):
Yeah.
So we're gonna move on to the tothe final segment and talk about
the company.
And so I'm gonna have fun withthis because I get to peer
inside of your brains and we getto look into the future.
So when we talk about mush noom,am I saying that correctly?

(01:20:19):
Yes.
Mush noom.
And for my listening public,we're not I didn't you didn't
hear me miss misspeak.
The name of their company iscalled Mush Noom.
What is Mush Noom's core why?
That's my question.
My first question.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:32):
Yeah, I think um, you know, we've touched on a
number of those things, right?
And so to me, being on kind ofthe back end of of practicing
medicine and whatnot, um, youknow, I I kind of look forward
and I say, I want to leave thisplace with having impacted the
community.
Right.
Okay.
Um, you know, I'm able to dothat to some degree as a
hospitalist.

(01:20:53):
I was probably able to do it alittle bit more when I was in
private practice.
But um, you know, some of thethings that we're talking about,
I I likely won't be here to seethem, you know, occur.
But I want to Not as you getbigger.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:07):
Not as you get bigger with all the money coming
in and the different Yeah, Imean we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:12):
We'll see, right?
You know, we'll see.
But but I think for me it is itis more of a holistic approach,
right?
Because we're still talkingabout the things that I've been
telling people to do for 30years, right?
And it it's all encompassing forme.
So I would like for people tolook at mushnoon as a more of a
wellness company who justhappens to be in the mushroom

(01:21:33):
extract space, right?
I would like for them to be ableto go to, you know, our
websites, our you know,Instagram pages, Facebook,
whatever, and not just getinformation about the mushroom
extracts, but also getinformation, like I said, about,
you know, meditation, thosekinds of things, right?
Why I need to exercise.
Well, you know, you need toexercise to decrease your risk

(01:21:53):
of getting dementia, you know,those simple things like that.
Steve and I, we talk about allthe time when these new studies
come out, we share those studieswith each other, right?
And it may not have anything todo with mushroom or mushroom
extracts, you know, directly.
So I think for me, that's whereI want our company to be.
But aside from that, I want usto be the top, the number one

(01:22:15):
company in the world thatactually produces mushroom
extract.
And I want our quality to beundoubtedly better than anybody
else's.
Dr.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:23):
Gandu, do you share the same vision or do you have a
slightly different one?

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:27):
Share the share the share the same vision, but you
know, I want to emphasize a fewpoints.
One, we're never too old or toolate to think about legacy, and
you're never too young to thinkabout legacy.
The entire, my entire mission inlife has always been to, you
know, to impact the community,have something what I call

(01:22:47):
impactful entrepreneurship,right?
And be able to, you know, affectthe masses per se.
I knew that I can make adifference with my job, but I
knew that when the time came, isthat am I going to be satisfied?
Probably not, right?
And so JGN Biotech was foundedon that promise of, you know,
we're going to continue to builda legacy not only for this

(01:23:11):
company, but for this communitythat we serve, right?
So, and it doesn't end with JGNBiotech.
You know, the money comes in,the revenue comes in here.
Well, we're going to put it backinto another project that can
benefit the community.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:26):
So as you grow, I'm not sure if this is being funded
from your own pockets.
Do you have series A, Series B?
Because it gets me to my nextquestion.
And that is as you build thiscompany in your your JG biotech
company.
The reason I'm asking, are youbuilding it towards a consumer

(01:23:47):
wellness company, a biotechcompany, or something in
between?
You hinted at it, but as itgrows with more complexity, more
money, a board, you know, don'tknow.
I mean, there are a lot ofcomplexities here other than you
two brilliant physicians,because when when it grows, I'm
asking, you know, what are youguys building the company

(01:24:10):
towards?
Your own personal beliefs versussome of the marketplace
realities that exist.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:16):
Yeah, but I think that I think here's what the way
that I look at it, right?
And so I look at it much in thesame way that my father looked
at it, right?
And so you and I, Keith, we comefrom a generation that, you
know, our parents were involvedin the civil rights movement as
an And so what did we see happenwithin our community?
Businessmen contributed to thatmovement, would not have

(01:24:36):
succeeded without it, right?
So that was a way that ourcommunity was affected
tremendously, right?
So whatever it is that weaccomplished through JGN biotech
is just one aspect of it for me,right?
We can partner with people, youknow, go in this direction, this
direction, and set up, you know,charities, things like that

(01:24:56):
through that entity, right?
Which is what we saw in ourcommunity that people did,
right?
And so to me, it's allencompassing.
And I look at it and I say, thebetter that we do with JGN
Biotech, the more opportunitiesand options we have to give
back, right?
And to affect our community,right?
That's just one aspect of it forme, right?

(01:25:19):
There's always things that I'mthinking about doing and and
things that I'm thinking aboutgetting involved in, right?
Because what I've found is thatuh my place in the community as
an African American physicianhas been great for me the last
30 years, right?
People come to me and they askme about all different kinds of
things.
They've instilled trust in me.

(01:25:39):
So I take that very seriously.
But I've also been approached bytons of people who want me to
help in certain ways.
And so I've been able to do thaton a small level.
I would love to be able to dothat on a much larger level,
right?
So I'm always looking foropportunities for us to get
involved in different things.
And so when Steve and I firststart sat down and talked about

(01:26:01):
this, his idea was to havewellness communities or wellness
centers, right, in India, andthen also, you know, throughout
the United States.
We're working with someindividuals now that we believe
we can make some of those thingshappen.
Now, obviously, in thosewellness centers would be
Mushnu, of course, would be oneof the things that we would make
available for people.

(01:26:22):
But just something like that,you know, where people could go
to and they could see aphysician, and this physician
has a background in integrativemedicine, you know, and is
talking about all of these otherthings that we're talking about.
Because what we're seeing withthe studies that are coming out
is how important this stuff is,right?
I don't know if you know therewas just a study that was

(01:26:44):
released looking atMediterranean diet and
preventing diabetes, right?
So these are things, these arethings that we haven't seen
during my time of practicingmedicine.
So to Siva's point, this is agreat time to capitalize on
those kinds of things across theboard.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:03):
I hear you, but I'm I'm asking a slightly different
perspective.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:08):
We're talking about the growth.
Can I kind of try to answer it?
Okay, all right.
In terms of in terms of from Ithink, and Dr.
Jarrell, I think, talked aboutwhat JG and Biotech as a whole
encompasses and what our missionis with growing this company in
terms of the long long term,right?
From and I think your questionwas more geared towards from a
wellness company, where do youevolve with JG and Biotech?

(01:27:33):
Yes.
We would stick to the supplementbusiness, but stick to the
supplement business in a waythat we're providing
standardization across theboard, and we would keep this
company focused onnutraceuticals, herbominerals,

(01:27:55):
and essentially the supplementindustry.
As we gain the science and as wegain the literature and the data
that is going to be crucial inthe product development for us,
we will definitely look into thepharmaceutical side.
Now, I do not know if we woulddo that under JG and Biotech or
if it was gonna break if it'llrun under the same holding

(01:28:18):
company, right?
But you know, it it it alsodepends on who who the players
are that are gonna be involvedat that point because no
business, you know, can happenwith just, you know, the two of
us, right?
And and there is a team behindus, right?
That you guys and and there'skey components of that team that
make mush noom possible.

(01:28:39):
There's gonna be more keycomponents in that team that are
going to actually help us launchanother flagship brand or
another, I wouldn't call itflagship brand, but another
brand off of JGN Biotech, whichalso deals with supplements,
right?
I think that's that's the way welook at JGN Biotech is we
approach it from uh a qualityperspective, keep it in the
supplement space, try to bringpharmaceutical practices, your

(01:29:03):
standards that are applicable inthe pharmaceutical industry to
the supplement industry, so thatessentially now people have
great quality supplements thatthey work with.
Now, to kind of supplement that,okay.
What do we do?
You know, and Dr.
Jarrell kind of talked about it,right?
Like the charities and thecommunity service and a CSR and

(01:29:23):
all of that is gonna be super,super important.
And he touched upon the factthat you know, we wanted to look
into wellness centers, right?
Wellness centers are one part ofit.
We're also working on software,right?
Wow.
We have we have a softwarecompany that we have opened.
It's called Rejuvenate LLC.
And so we're gonna be excited tobring out a new product, you

(01:29:46):
know, hopefully early next year.
And this is the whole concepthere is to build an ecosystem,
right?
Because yes, we can be thegreatest supplement company out
there, but how do we the wholeGoal of this was we build brand
trust and you're gonna associateJGN with trust and you're gonna

(01:30:08):
associate JGN with hey, if theyif they give me another product,
whether it's an application orthey tell me to go to one of
their wellness clinics, I'mgonna I'm gonna trust that and
I'm gonna go there and I'm gonnause it.
That's I love what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:23):
The most successful companies didn't start well, let
me say it.
This is this was what I'msaying.
Most uh companies, when they getbig, didn't start that way.
They adapt it, they move, theyshift it.
And you know, I just think whatyou guys have is phenomenal.
What you've uh achieved isphenomenal.
And so if Mushnoom uh succeeds,you know, how is healthcare

(01:30:48):
gonna look in the next 10 to 20years from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:52):
I think for me, some of the things that we've already
talked about, right?
I think if we are successful,then the majority of phys
physicians across this countrythat do what we do, which is
primary care, when your kids,you know, my kids, your
grandkids, my grandkids walkinto a doctor's office, they'll
have options, right?
And so it won't be so much, Ijust I'm gonna write a

(01:31:15):
prescription for you, right?
It could be, hey, going over to,you know, this place and pick up
this cordyceps or pick up Rishior Lion's mane or whatever.
And I think the benefit of thatis that it fosters a lot more
conversation and interactionbetween the physician and the
patient, right?
Because you have to talk to themabout this stuff.

(01:31:37):
Right.
It's not, oh, well, you know, Igot this Lasana Peril that, you
know, everybody knows about thatI'm gonna put, you know, put you
on for your blood pressure.
And so the biggest complaintthat I got that we saw in
private practice was patientscomplaining about their doctors
not spending enough time withthem and not explaining things
to them.
That's the biggest, and it'sstill the biggest complaint that

(01:31:57):
we get in the hospital, right?
So to me, this is how I think wecould affect and we could change
that.
The second part of this would bewhat Steve has already talked
about in terms of prevention,right?
I'd like to see those numbers godown, the incidence of diabetes,
the incidence of high bloodpressure, the incidence of heart
disease in all of ourcommunities, right?

(01:32:18):
Because we're utilizing thesespecific supplements as
adjuvants, right?
Not necessarily to replace, butI'm hopeful enough, right?
I'm optimistic enough that in ain a percentage of that patient
population or percentage of thecommunity, that we can get to
these individuals soon enough,right?
And we can prevent some of theseproblems, right?

(01:32:39):
We can take these prediabeticpatients out of that that realm
and get them into a realm wheretheir A1Cs are low enough early
on so they don't have to worryabout developing diabetes at age
40.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:52):
I think to add on to one thing that Dr.
Durell also said is I would liketo see more accessibility.
I think that's a good idea.
Yeah, of mushroom supplements oryou know, of mush nooms products
altogether, you know.
Um and as a matter of fact, allthe products that JGN Biotech
manufactures, right?
And so if we're looking atsupplements as a holistic

(01:33:16):
approach for preventative healthand giving people years to their
or or quality years to theirlife, you know, the communities
that actually really suffer fromthis are minority communities,
especially in America, and andthey don't have the access, one,

(01:33:36):
two, it's a monetary and andit's an economical issue, right?
If you're already not going tobe able to afford your
medications that you know you'regetting through Medicare
Medicaid for a couple dollars,there's really no way that you
know you expect that person tobe able to afford a supplement
that they now have to pay aboutthirty dollars a month for.

(01:33:58):
So, you know, I I think I thinkthat is that would be I think
the pinnacle, right?
I I yeah it once we saw that andand we're gonna do what we what
it takes to provide that accessto these communities.
But as Dr.
Jarrell said, you know, you haveto be able to see this more
available and the way you bringthis down in terms of the

(01:34:18):
pricing, and Keith, you knowthis, it's a volumes game.
Right.
If we have the data over thenext five to ten years to show
that in these populations, thismight actually be a safer
alternative and people seem totolerate these supplements
better.
Well, can we maybe cover themthrough, you know, not only your
HSA and FSA, where, you know,that's an employer-based

(01:34:41):
benefit, but could we look atsome coverage through a
government scheme and you know,maybe we subsidize it to the
government altogether?
Right?
So, you know, that that's thatwould be the goal with this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:52):
And and I think, Keith, I'll give you a quick
example of what I'm talkingabout.
So nowadays, if your A1C is sixor greater, you're gonna be
probably put on metformin,right?
Yes And you know, you probablyknow as I do, metformin can
cause a lot of GI side effects.
So if five or ten years from nowyou can sit there with your

(01:35:13):
patient and say, wait a minute,I have an alternative to
metformin because your A1C isrunning about 6.1 and we can put
you on cordyceps or cordycepsalong with lion's mane.
Now I don't have to put them onprotonics, right, when they have
the GI upset, right?
So in the long run, I'm probablysaving money, right?
Now the folks that makeprotonics aren't gonna be happy

(01:35:34):
with us, right?
They're gonna they're gonna bevery upset with us about that.
But from a from a costeffectiveness standpoint, right,
then you start looking at, youknow, if if uh what to what Siva
was saying, if you can get yournumbers up, if you get the
volume up, then that's gonnalower your price right across
the board, right?
Then you start having situationswhere your Walmarts of the world

(01:35:57):
come in and they say, Oh, well,we want your product because
it's good product, and now wecan provide that to our
patients, to your patients forsix dollars a month, right?
And now I don't have to worrybecause I don't have to worry
about paying for that protonics,right, that they would need
potentially with metformin.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:12):
Well, you know, I I I have a prediction, having been
in this game for a minute, youguys have a really good problem
to have.
If you're if you're right andyou can substantiate the value
of of a disease with thisproduct or any of the products
that you guys come up withthat's outside the realm, or
let's say it another way, thatcomes from a nutraceutical

(01:36:33):
company and you've and yourvalue proposition is so high, I
don't necessarily see the pricegoing necessarily down.
I know I I think as from abusiness standpoint that you've
solved something that the pricewill the price will be the
price.
And I'll give you an analogy.
I've worked for a number ofcompanies, one in cystic
fibrosis, and it had such agreat value proposition in

(01:36:56):
keeping and extending the livesof of of some of its patients by
10 years.
When that product came tomarket, it was not an
inexpensive product.
And and some can look and say,boy, but it was justified.
It was covered by insurance.
It was, you know, we're talking$13,000.
And so I guess, I guess when Ilook at this, I think, and I'll

(01:37:18):
say this, you guys have a reallygood problem to have because I
can't help to think as abusinessman, you know, you want
to bring value to themarketplace.
And you want to be and you and Ijust think that you guys have a
really wonderful problem, andthat kind of takes me us to the
end.
And I ask every guest this onelast question, and we'll start

(01:37:40):
with you, Dr.
Gandu.
What is the one piece of adviceor insight you want my listeners
to carry away from today'sconversation?

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:48):
Be curious.
Don't be afraid to makemistakes.
For every ten success, you'regonna have ten failures.
And coming from a physicianbackground, I don't I don't have
a degree in anything businessrelated.
The one thing that I've realizedis foster relationships and
approach everything with an openmind.
Don't be afraid to makemistakes, be honest, have

(01:38:09):
integrity, and be the sponge andjust just learn from people
around you.
Practical learning carries youso much, so much further.
So as a young entrepreneur andas a physician, I think those
are the things that I would liketo, you know, have your viewers
hear, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:27):
Okay, Dr.
Jarrell, you have the last wordhere.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:31):
Yeah, I think for me, again, coming from a family
of entrepreneurs, watching mymom and my dad, you know, run a
business for, you know, 30 plusyears, I would agree with Siva.
It is about relationships,right?
And I think a lot of timespeople have a great idea or what
we think is a great idea, butthey're they're not willing to
put the work in behind it.

(01:38:51):
They're not willing to do theresearch along with it, they're
not willing to really sit downand tap into the resources that
are around them in terms ofdeveloping a really strong
business plan.
And I think the other thing isthat, as he said, don't be
afraid to fail, right?
Because you learn more fromfailure than you do from
success, right?
And don't be afraid to pivot,right?

(01:39:12):
So as I said, when we started,when I started this thing, and
when we started this thing, itwas all about fresh mushrooms,
right?
And so when we started lookingat the extracts, I said, boy,
we're gonna put the freshmushrooms on hold for a while
here, right?
So I also wasn't old enough towatch my parents pivot, but my
father kind of fell into realestate.

(01:39:33):
That wasn't the first thing thathe did.
And so as I got older, I foundout, you know, he was
unsuccessful in a couple ofbusinesses before he got to the
real estate industry.
So, you know, be determined, youknow, utilize those
relationships.
Always talk to people, alwaystalk to your customers, always
talk to your family, yourfriends, because you never know

(01:39:56):
when they're gonna meet somebodyor you're gonna meet somebody
that's going to be able to helpyou in a way that you never
thought they would.
Just our meeting, the two of usmeeting was probably by
accident.
It was he was Siva was supposedto be doing a GI fellowship.
And had he done the GIfellowship, we would have never
met.

SPEAKER_03 (01:40:15):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:15):
Right.
So sometimes those coincidencesare huge.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:20):
How do people find your product?
Where should they go?
Give them the give them the thecontact information quickly,
please.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:26):
Yeah, our website is www.mushnum.com.
They can reach us there.
And we have uh oh, you know, ifthey have questions or whatever,
they can send us you knowquestions there.
We have studies on the websiteas well.
Um and our Instagram page is attry mushnoom.

SPEAKER_00 (01:40:43):
So that they can there's any questions, they can
always reach us at care at JGNBiotech.
That email will go straight toDr.
Jarell and I.
And, you know, if there's anyquestions about the supplements
or about anything that we'vetalked about today, um, you
know, please be willing to reachout.
And it's NUM with a N, NewMeaning Togetherness.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:03):
So S means so M-U-S-H-N-O-O-M.
And I'll put it in the in thecaption when I post this on the
various channels.
Well, that's it for today'sepisode of the next big thing.
A huge thank you to Dr.
Steve Agandu and Dr.
Ronaldo Jarrell for joining meand sharing Mushnoom's journey.

(01:41:24):
I thought this was a delightfulconversation from the science of
healing to the businessrealities of bringing innovation
to the marketplace.
Thanks for listening to the nextbig thing.
I'm your host, Keith D.
Terry.
If you've enjoyed this episodeand you'd like to support this
podcast, please share it withothers.

(01:41:45):
Post about it on social media orleave a rating and a review.
To catch all the latest from me,you can follow me on my YouTube
channel at Keith D.Terry.
If you want to recommend aguest, please email me at
infoterry performance group.com.
This has been produced by yourhost and Jade Productions.

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