April 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Jim McGregor of Tirias Research joined Leonard Lee of neXt Curve to recap March and April 2025 in the world of semiconductors and accelerated and non-accelerated computing on the neXt Curve reThink Podcast series, Silicon Futures. Jim and Leonard share their thoughts on the state of this semiconductor industry in light of a volatile pair of months that saw the starting of a global tariff regime instituted by the White House that has roiled the markets and industries and trade relations with the U.S. face unprecedented uncertainty. What are the implications on the semiconductor industry and the global electronics supply chain as the tumult continues?
This episode covers:
➡️ Global tariffs and its impact on the global electronics industry (3:19)
➡️ Jim's impression and takes from Embedded World 2025 (34:45)
➡️ Edge AI and the diffusion of AI accelerates (39:22)
Hit both Leonard and Jim up on LinkedIn and take part in their industry and tech insights.
Check out Jim and his research at Tirias Research at www.tiriasresearch.com.
Please subscribe to our podcast which will be featured on the neXt Curve YouTube Channel. Check out the audio version on BuzzSprout or find us on your favorite Podcast platform.
Also, subscribe to the neXt Curve research portal at www.next-curve.com for the tech and industry insights that matter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leonard Lee (00:10):
Welcome everyone to this next Curve Rethink podcast
episode where we break down thelatest tech industry events and
happenings into the insightsthat matter.
I'm Leonard Lee, executiveAnalyst at ncur, and in this
Silicon Futures episode where wefocus on all the things, related
to semiconductors in theindustry itself.
(00:32):
we're gonna be talking about thehappenings in the month of
March.
April.
So we're doing a little bit of amakeup here, and I am joined by
my good friend and fellowindustry analyst, Jim McGregor
of the Famed Cheerious ResearchGroup.
(00:53):
Do you have a group?
You don't have a group at theend of your No.
Yeah.
It's just curious research.
And so, Jim, how are you?
Good.
How are you doing today?
It's been a while.
We've been super busy, right?
Yes.
It's been a very hectic year.
Dare I say it's still thebeginning of the year.
Is, is that No, it's almost themiddle of the year.
(01:14):
Where's the time going?
I know.
It's really crazy.
So, but before we start, pleaseremember to like, share, react,
and comment on this episode.
Also subscribe here on YouTubeand but Sprout to listen to us
on your favorite podcastplatform and, Also would like to
remind everyone, opinions andstatements made by my guests, in
(01:35):
particular Jim, in this instanceand in this episode, are
entirely his own and don'treflect mine or those of next
curve when we're doing this toprovide an open forum for
discussion and debate andeverything else on all things.
Related to consumer tech,commercial tech, and the
semiconductor industry.
So, Jim, this installment, we'regonna try to do a little bit of
(01:58):
catch up, right?
We, didn't do our March bit.
unfortunately, Carl Fre, who's,another partner in this,
endeavor that we have with thisSilicon Futures podcast isn't
able to join us.
we're gonna hit on March andApril, right?
Yes.
Jim McGregor (02:14):
that's a lot to hit on.
I know.
March I was gone the entire month of March, the
entire month.
Leonard Lee (02:19):
I'm proud to say that I managed to spend some
time at home, but you're right.
we have a term for that.
It's called lazy.
Yeah.
Wow.
Hey, Jensen won.
Come on.
that's basically what he wassaying, right?
Yes.
Make my people lazy.
Lazy.
That's a secret to success.
Exactly.
(02:41):
speaking of March, we had, andyou know, Jensen Wong, we had
GTC as well as MWC and EmbeddedWorld.
And I know you've been chompingat the bit to talk about
embedded world because that wasa really big event, but mm-hmm.
Obviously something that really.
resonated with you this year.
Yes.
so I take it we're not gonnatalk too much about GTC, right?
(03:04):
Because we already have aseparate podcast on that.
So folks, if you, I quite
Jim McGregor (03:09):
honestly, I think we should talk about some of the
most recent, things that havehappened.
the intel learnings, the shiftof manufacturing by Apple to
India.
the biggest thing to talk aboutright now is the tariff
scramble.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the way I phrase itbecause everyone's scrambling.
Nobody knew how to reallyprepare for it.
So everyone right now is tryingto figure out, how's it going to
(03:30):
impact them, because it'schanging every day.
And how can they, expand theirsupply and manufacturing
resources so that they can avoidthe tariffs or limit the impact
of the tariffs.
Leonard Lee (03:43):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, that and a lotof the geopolitical mm-hmm.
events that have transpired inthe last two months, it's pretty
overwhelming actually.
Right.
And, that's probably the mosttop of mind thing in the
industry.
and the sourcing.
(04:04):
The security, resilience, allthese topics are, are really
coming into play and, I.
So, yeah, we can definitelytouch on that.
So did you want to expand onthat right now or do you want
to, do you want to we, I thinkit's a great
Jim McGregor (04:19):
place to start because I mean, really that is
probably the most critical thinggoing in our industry right now
is adjusting to.
This tariff, this trade war thathas erupted over, the US tariffs
and not understanding really howthings are gonna, and I've
actually had this debate withsome people and they're like,
oh,, it's gonna be minimal'causeit's just this amount and blah,
(04:40):
blah, blah.
I'm like, no, it's not when youstart factoring in, you got, 25%
tariffs coming into the US onsteel and aluminum.
That impacts almost everyindustry that you have to talk
about.
Rare Earth materials, which area huge, huge leverage point that
China has when they control 85%of the rare earth material
(05:00):
manufacturing at this point intime, or processing, I should
say.
and some people have said, okay,well yeah, but there's plenty of
rare earth materials in the USand other parts of the world.
It can take three to five oreven 10 years to bring that to
process.
Right, right.
So I think that the worst thingwe have going on right now are
those tariffs, and especiallythis battle between the US and
(05:23):
China.
We've spent decades.
Creating a global ecosystem andleveraging the expertise, the
labor resources, themanufacturing capability, all
the resources that go intobuilding a very robust
electronics industry.
and now that's being torn apartand it's gonna be very painful.
Leonard Lee (05:44):
Yeah.
I think there's more going onhere than just, simply tariffs,
right?
you mentioned trade war, and youalso mentioned the rare earths,
We're also starting to see, somemovement on the services front,
right?
I think it's very difficult forany, company to really navigate
what's happening right nowbecause the level of volatility,
(06:08):
in terms of the policy, how it'sbeing expressed, it flip flops,
dramatically, literally day today.
So.
not a easy situation for the,industry at all.
Jim McGregor (06:20):
Well, and I think the.
Policy makers, and I'll leave itat that, are underestimating the
impact.
Yeah.
Obviously you have it on thefinal product.
You have it on the supply chain.
Yeah.
You have it on, legalenvironments.
it could impact, IP protections.
Across borders, now you evenhave it going out to consumers.
(06:41):
We're already seeing this whereCanadian consumers are trying to
avoid any US products.
so I mean that, it goes from theheart of our industry all the
way out to the consumer and it'sgonna have a huge impact.
and even as you mentioned,services.
are companies willing to use aservice if it's headquartered in
the US or if it's headquarteredin China, or even if they have
(07:03):
offices in those countries?
it's going to be a verydifficult situation and.
It's going to be a difficultregulatory situation to
navigate.
once again, things changing dayby day, but also knowing that,
there's likely to be otherissues with technology transfers
or IP sharing or any type ofinteraction or transfer of data.
(07:27):
So it's going to be a challenge.
going into 2025, I thought itwas the most exciting time for
our industry.
Yeah.
just the direction we were goingwith AI and AI is still huge and
still going millions of miles anhour.
We have a whole new forecast forthat, and it's blowing away
anything that we did before.
the demand is insatiable, but.
(07:48):
At the same token, whereeverything seemed to be moving
in the same direction.
think of the wireless industry.
5G was the first wirelesstechnology where from day one
there was a single standard forthe entire world.
From day one, and we've had thatgoing forward and it's really
propelling the industry.
And now we're threatening tobreak all this effort apart.
(08:10):
Yeah.
Over, this trade battle overthese IP issues, over, all these
other political issues.
the electronics industryunfortunately has become a pawn
of the political world.
Leonard Lee (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm glad that you brought upthe whole.
Topic of ip and at the end ofthe day, what's really being,
threatened.
If not compromised in theprocess of being compromised is
that level of global trust.
Right.
You mentioned 5G, and this isall based on trust.
(08:45):
This is about literally industryand regulators as well as
government supporting.
a standard, I'm not gonna sayopen.
It's more of a standard fortechnologies so that these
technologies can scale.
And so going forward, dependingon how the tariff conversation
and the trade relations play outand the tech relations play out,
(09:09):
we might be looking at a veryfragmented, trust landscape.
In fact, that's probably alreadyin play right now.
I think not only thesemiconductor industry has to
ask itself, but the broader TMT,'cause we have to bring content
in here as well, right?
these are all, industries thathave benefited from this global
(09:32):
standardization, markets inorder to scale and, deliver on
this, ubiquitous benefit.
for consumers as well asenterprises, right?
What happens when that allbecomes dismantled?
And I agree with you, this issomething that, policymakers
around the globe need tocontemplate and are starting to
(09:53):
contemplate.
it's just a very, very complextopic and it's also something
that's going to be verydifficult to, navigate.
all the critical considerations,because the landscape is
shifting so quickly, right?
But, unfortunately it looks likethings are moving toward
(10:14):
distrust.
Versus trust.
And as you, I think most peopleknow you can lose trust in a
second, right?
It takes years, if notgenerations to build trust.
And I think this is, number one,a big.
Risk for the industry, becausethe dismantling of trust is
(10:36):
something that, is not trivial.
And we may have to startthinking about, well, what is
this trust landscape going to,look like?
What, where is it movingtowards?
And how well new networks oftrust be built, because that's
where you're gonna see pocketsof value, market opportunities.
(10:57):
And so these tams that everyonewas looking at are all of a
sudden becoming very fragmented,and this is just gonna be really
tricky for, the entire industry.
And I don't think there's a,solution at the moment, right?
Everyone is just trying tofigure out how they need to
react or not react or maybe,take their time to examine, what
a sensible play might be, in anotherwise, super volatile,
(11:21):
situation.
Jim McGregor (11:23):
Well, and you mentioned trust.
Yeah.
That trust in the technology,that trust between technology
providers, that trust of theconsumer, all results from our
industry working togetherholistically.
Yeah.
our industry has overcome issueswith, obviously with security,
with safety, with everythingelse.
Think of the fact that we'venever had a major disaster
(11:45):
around a semiconductor fat.
That's a huge accomplishment,especially when you, someone
that knows some of the chemicalsthey use, like hydrofluoric
acid, it is a hugeaccomplishment.
So if there's one message, and Ireally, really hope that we get
this podcast out to, governmentregulators around the world.
Mm-hmm.
And say that, listen, ourindustry and innovation thrive
(12:07):
when politics stays out of it.
Yeah.
And that is a key point.
granted, the electronicsindustry is so important to, the
political realm because itdrives GDP, it drives growth, it
drives innovation, and itshould.
The best way you can do that isto support it as a whole and to
(12:27):
support it through, incentivesand everything else.
But when you start puttingrestrictions on it.
You really hamper everythingthat we do.
quite honestly, every governmentshould learn their lesson by now
that when you start hamperingtechnology innovation, you
really threaten the technologydevelopment in your own country.
Leonard Lee (12:47):
Yeah.
Especially when you, can arguethat, you're in a leadership
position and you are somehow,now succumbing to this notion
that you're not, I think.
You're making a great pointthere because.
while TSMC might have,leadership on the fab side, the
manufacturing side of things,from a design perspective,
(13:10):
systems a technologyperspective, it, it still the
United States with all of thebig brands, that we all know so
well, that have amazingtechnology portfolios, but are
also exhibiting, productleadership.
And market leadership through,leadership products.
Right.
Nvidia.
(13:31):
Perfect example, right?
so I think discounting thesethings can be really,
detrimental because as you startto look at what your policy
needs to look like, you have tobe cognizant of whatever
leadership.
Is in play at the moment.
And I think a lot of this isalso relevant to what's happened
(13:55):
with 5G, and six G, where, thepolicy makers may not be
appreciating the importance ofthis technology because it's
gone through a hype cycle.
I say that has beendetrimentally disregarded, but
um, China is definitely noteasing on the throttle on mobile
(14:15):
technologies.
Right.
In fact, they're doubling down.
and so they're looking atwhatever kind of advantages that
they can, lean into and maybeinvest in and accelerate, to
have a competitive, advantage,going forward.
And so, yeah, I agree with you.
one of the things that has beena huge benefit for the industry
(14:38):
is global competition.
Jim McGregor (14:39):
I'd call it coopetition
Leonard Lee (14:41):
because it's cooperation and competition.
Right, right.
You're, you're right.
and, to the credit of, many ofthe Chinese companies that have
engaged over the years in, thisglobal electronics, industry and
its advancements, they havecontributed.
I I think the myth is that theyhaven't.
(15:02):
I think it's well documentedthat they have contributed and
have been, active participants,in the advancement of, the
electronics industry as a wholeand also, the semiconductor and
AI sectors, so I think those areall important things to
recognize.
(15:23):
as a policy maker, otherwise youcan shoot yourself in the foot.
And then also, considering allthe things that you mentioned
earlier, Jim, about supply chainand, the structure of, the
electronics industry as well asthe semiconductor industry,
which is a subset.
being very, very clear on that.
so that, as you're looking atdeveloping your policies, you're
(15:46):
doing it a thoughtful andstrategic way, right?
That helps you achieve whatevergoal that you have, whether
it's, resiliency, supply chain,resiliency, Or, national
security.
that all has to be thoughtfulbecause at some point, if your
industry and your industry,champions, have their market
shrinking.
(16:07):
that doesn't, help advance any,objective I think even national
security.
Jim McGregor (16:12):
a message to the.
Industry itself.
Vendors need to think globally,obviously not just in terms of
their customer base, but interms of their engineer
resources, their manufacturingand support resources.
I think a lot of the companiesare, we've seen even some of
those results of the past month,apple shifting, smartphone
(16:33):
manufacturing to India.
That's a huge announcement.
also, TSMC.
Introducing fabs in the usplaying on introducing fabs in
Europe and in Japan in theirfuture.
So I think that we're seeingthat and that that's really an
important thing.
I think the next step a lot ofthese companies need to take is
they need to think aboutexpanding beyond their
(16:55):
traditional markets.
And we've seen some of this,obviously in automotive.
Automotive is a great examplewhere the whole value chain is
thrown into disarray because nowyou have semiconductor providers
not just providing chips.
But providing the boards andcomplete system level solutions.
Yeah, and I think that's almostwhat we need, what a lot of
companies need to think about.
Because we don't know how allthese trade tensions are gonna
(17:19):
play out, but it's reallyimportant that you think about.
Not just where you playing thevalue chain, but you know where
you can expand and enhance thatvalue chain.
Nvidia is a great example.
It went from being a chipcompany to a board company, to a
systems company, to a softwarecompany, to a services company.
I mean they pretty much providethe entire stack.
(17:40):
For AI solutions from embeddedapplications like robotics, all
the way through, the datacenter.
For the high-end AI factory datacenters.
I think it's really critical.
And I think the last thing thatthese companies need to do, and
I'll be honest with you, I don'tthink enough of'em are thinking,
even in the technology industry,are thinking enough about it.
(18:01):
Not just how they can use ai,but how AI changes their
business model.
Yeah.
and some companies, like I askedJensen Halling that this Ed GTCI
said, how do you, where do yousee.
Nvidia in 10 years.
He's like, Jim, I wish I knew.
that was a great answer becausehis business model is changing
constantly around ai.
(18:21):
He likes to say that theyinnovate at the speed of light
and they really are.
And it's not just their productsand services, but for the
technology it's also theirbusiness model.
And I think a lot of technologycompanies, as well as other
companies throughout otherindustries.
Need to think about how theirbusiness model changes.
and I really think that thatglobalization, that, change in
(18:43):
business model, and change inwhere you play in your
industries is really gonna drivea lot of change and hopefully
overcomes some of the issueswe're seeing today with the
political environment.
Leonard Lee (18:55):
Yeah.
And well, I might.
I might beg to differ a littlebit.
I generally agree with what youjust said, Jim.
but I also think that, companieslike Nvidia and others have been
a victim of the hype as well.
I can appreciate theadvancements that have happened
with quote unquote ai, but morespecifically, we need to be
talking about.
(19:16):
Generative AI and what'shappening there?
I think, beyond some of theprototypical use cases and
applications that it's beingleveraged for, such as, these
chatbots like chat, GPT and someof the reasoning models that are
now starting to come out, theseare still, we're still in early
days in terms of thesetechnologies being mature and I
(19:39):
think.
One of the things that hasvictimized the industry is the
hype that, and sort of thesemisconceptions that somehow, AI
innovation is specifically tiedto the number of GPUs or the
kind of GPUs that you haveaccess to.
I think another big news itemthat came out.
(20:00):
this in the past two months wasHuawei introducing their AI
cloud matrix.
You know, I think it's like 384, right?
Mm-hmm.
Where it's an all optical,system, right?
no copper, apparently.
And, it can scale out largerthan a Blackwell.
(20:22):
MVL 72, according to, ourfriends at semi analysis that
did a study on this.
So, you could be chasing thewrong rabbit if you don't
understand these things at asystem level.
But more importantly,understanding.
Well, where are we with thistechnology and what is it and
(20:42):
what sort of impact is it reallyhaving?
AI has always been difficult.
it's always been costly.
It's never been easy.
And so some of these,aspirational use cases and
applications that everyone talksabout are difficult to achieve,
right?
And so I think, rather than, thepolicymakers.
(21:05):
simply subscribing to, let'ssay, the fantasy and the fear.
Of these technologies, thereneeds to be more of a grounded,
strategic as well as a tactical,assessment of what they're
looking at, when it comes toquote unquote ai.
And that needs to be unpackedvery, very well.
(21:26):
And it's not always the casethat you're married to whatever
buzzword is prevailing at aparticular time.
because about a year and a halfago, there was all this talk
about the GPU, right?
And as you and I have talkedabout, and Carl have talked
about on this show, it's nolonger about the GPU or the
chip.
(21:47):
It's about the system, and wetalked about the importance of
interconnect and networking.
This is something that Chinese,in particular, Huawei is very
good at.
And guess what?
At a system level, they havebeen able to innovate and do
some very interesting things ontop of some very novel
approaches to the actual AIsoftware.
(22:08):
that is not part of necessarilywhat we're seeing in the
portfolio and the approachesthat, AI companies, I hate using
that term, AI compute companies,but you know, the AI ecosystem
in the west is using, inparticular the United States.
And so, there's a lot tonavigate here and a lot of
(22:30):
complexities.
And the funny thing is we're yousee a lot of policy makers still
fixated on quote unquote, thechip.
You still see it.
Jim McGregor (22:40):
Right.
and Jensen Wong probably madethe most accurate statement that
the new univ compute is the datacenter.
So that system you talk aboutisn't just the chip.
It is everything that goes into,it's even the power.
It's the cooling.
It's everything cooling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is in giant.
It is a giant server, if youwill.
(23:00):
And you're right.
It is.
And policymakers, I think,really can't understand the
grasp of a how quickly thistechnology is moving.
All of the technology, and thedemand that really exists out
there for it.
What We let the rabbit out ofthe box.
It's not slowing.
And you're right, it's stillimmature.
(23:21):
We're still not seeing theadoption at the enterprise level
that I think we should have,but.
The consumer level, the pro userlevel, it's off the charts.
We projected a nine, we justfinished our, forecast update.
We projected a 19 x increasefrom, 2024 to 2024, or during
2024.
(23:41):
Mm-hmm.
In just token consumption.
Mm-hmm.
It was over 500 x.
Over 500.
That's crazy.
And that's just tokens.
That doesn't include the imageand video creation.
and not to mention the, the TCO,the cost of these systems and to
run these systems in thesesolutions.
Once again, I'm not gonna addthese solutions.
(24:03):
it's huge.
It's massive.
heard a stat the other day thatwas talking about chat, GPT.
And saying, just people sayingthank you to chat, GPT is
costing millions because it'sdoing inference processing every
time you type something in.
So consumers and users arefinding ways, very much like the
(24:24):
internet, finding ways to use itand really driving that level of
innovation, driving demand justthrough the roof.
there is no stopping this.
And I think anything that theydo to get in the way is really
gonna hamper that.
Leonard Lee (24:39):
Yeah.
I agree with you.
But again, going back to thepoint I made earlier, the
association of the GPU.
Okay.
In very simplistic terms, tosomehow, this idea that is the
sole factor in influencing quoteunquote AI leadership.
Okay?
And the reason why I bring thisup in simple terms is because
(25:01):
that's how most people thinkabout these things, including
policy makers.
That is not good enough.
I think that's really the pointwe're trying to make here.
Right.
And like even, you're mentioninghere of the exponential growth
of tokens.
Well, yes.
You're gonna see that,especially as you see this
transition toward reasoningmodels that are using long
(25:24):
thinking, it's, they're going togenerate.
A lot more tokens becausethey're, theoretically thinking,
for a particular request,they're gonna this stuff doesn't
come for free.
It's not a one shot inferencethat is doing it's inferencing
for a very, very long timethrough this auto regressive
(25:44):
process.
and that's also separate fromcompute.
And that's the other thing thatthe folks at Nvidia reminded us,
right?
not every token is, createdequal.
depending on the system that youhave, you're gonna be using
either more or less compute fora token, depending on, what sort
(26:04):
of application you're running.
So there's a lot of, Layers topeel back and understand.
And that's one of the biggestchallenges, I think, not only
for policymakers but for theindustry as well.
Because to your point, thisstuff is moving so quickly.
There are folks in the industrythat don't even really know
where we are with things.
(26:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Other than maybe those leadingedge folks, who have esoteric
knowledge about what's going on,who are some of the folks that
we bump into and talk to all thetime.
But that unpacking outside ofthat community, that small,
group of.
Folks, it is not a trivial,task.
(26:47):
And I think what I'm trying todo here is highlight, in
particular to policymakers, thescale and the level of
complexity of, what they need todo.
To, arrive at good policy,right?
You do have to navigate, throughall this complexity and then
synthesize things back to, whatare those key drivers that are
(27:09):
gonna shape your policy?
And so for anyone to sit thereand say, Hey, I understand this
stuff, and I can come up with agreat policy based on these
numbers that somebody's shownme, or a couple of bullet points
that someone's, Present to me.
I don't think that's enough.
Jim McGregor (27:24):
I have that be very, very thoughtful of this
stuff.
I have the answer, and you canuse a disclaimer on this one.
We're talking about how you canuse AI to make you more
productive, productive and orreplace jobs.
We use AI to replace the policymakers.
Well, that's what they'relooking at doing in, UAE, right?
Absolutely.
Let's get rid of'em alltogether.
Leonard Lee (27:47):
Yeah.
Web, what do they call that?
it's a crypto concept.
It's a Dao, right?
Disaggregated somethingorganization.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All this stuff is tied togetherin a weird way though.
I remember.
no, seriously, back in 2015, Iforgot the name of that one,
(28:08):
company.
This is when I, where was I?
I was in, Barcelona and this waswhen blockchain was a really big
deal.
and, all the crypto stuff wasstarting to go ballistic.
I forgot the name of thecompany.
but there was An ai, humanoid,what do they call it?
animatronic, doodad that, arobot was going crazy, right?
(28:28):
Yeah.
Early robot.
Yeah.
but I, I recall, the inventor,Mentioning that tokens was going
to, were gonna be the basis forai.
And so it's really interesting.
I, I'll have to add, thatindividual on the notes, but,
yeah, that, that was pretty goodforesight on his part.
(28:48):
So yeah, a lot of the stuff isrelated and, there's no, it
shouldn't be really that much ofa.
a stretch to, associate Nvidiawith a lot of these trends as
well, because, GPUs were usedfor were, I would say, or maybe
even still used for, cryptomining, right?
Mm-hmm.
So.
(29:08):
And then you had the metaverse,and then now we have all this
generative AI stuff.
So no, now we have Agentic aiagentic.
Okay.
You and your agentic ai.
So
Jim McGregor (29:20):
reasoning ai.
Okay.
Let's call it reasoning
Leonard Lee (29:22):
ai.
Yeah, I think that's more, look,I got really confused, at GTC
and, NVIDIA's use of Vient ai.
I think it means somethingdifferent.
For them then what you'rehearing outside of, uh, GTC or
the NVIDIA ecosphere?
Jim McGregor (29:40):
Well, agentic AI should mean not only the ability
to reason, but also the abilityto make decisions.
Leonard Lee (29:47):
and then actions.
Right, right, right.
Because, that action part isreally where A lot of folks
heads are at with the agent ai,right?
Well, and that you're closingthe loop, you're trying to close
the loop and have autonomousautomation.
I think, the AI community,especially the one around,
(30:07):
Nvidia, thinks of it more interms of the long thinking.
Jim McGregor (30:11):
well, it's also for physical ai, it's going to
enable the autonomous machines.
It's a critical step forespecially humanoid robots,
right?
Yeah.
Which we're seeing a huge amountof innovation in at this point
in time.
So that's a key message here isthe fact that our industry is
working together.
Our industry is workingeffectively, and these, this
(30:33):
trade war is just inhibiting,innovation.
And it's gonna inhibit GDP, it'sgonna inhibit markets, it's
gonna inhibit consumers.
It's a bad situation.
Leonard Lee (30:44):
Yeah.
But you know, Jim, I think we dohave to recognize, when we do
look at the geopolitics where wedo have conflicts going on
around the world, nationalsecurity, is a legitimate
concern, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's, I think what you and I aretrying to say is that, just make
(31:05):
sure that you don't shootyourself in the foot and that
you don't, buy into.
Unintended consequences, whichoftentimes happens if you don't
go through that process that weoutlined earlier, right?
Where you're unpacking things toa degree that you should, and
you're doing due diligence, butthen you're also synthesizing
that back down into, key factorsand drivers that should.
(31:29):
help you shape a good policy orend a good strategy, right, as a
Jim McGregor (31:35):
policymaker.
And the only people, or the onlyway we can increase security,
not just for us, but foreverybody around the world, is
through our industry.
Our industry is the only onethat can achieve that.
And.
I think we've actually done avery good job of that.
we still have hackers.
We still have continuedevolution of threats.
and, we're even entering thequantum era where we're gonna
(31:57):
have new types of threats comingout.
But, our industry has continuedto increase in addressing or
risen to address those threatsas a whole.
So, I still think it should be ahands off policy.
Leonard Lee (32:13):
Okay.
All right.
I think it should be balanced.
Maybe you'll agree.
Hands off is like, to me, Idon't know if that's going to be
something that, you know,
Jim McGregor (32:22):
really
Leonard Lee (32:23):
subscribed
Jim McGregor (32:23):
to.
I know to walk away from apolicymaker when they put a
hyphen in semiconductor, or whenthey say silicone instead of
silicon.
Yeah.
Um, you know, or silicon,
Leonard Lee (32:37):
you know, who would've known that there were
so many ways of pronouncingsilicon?
Jim McGregor (32:41):
not silicone.
Leonard Lee (32:43):
Silicone is something different.
Something very, very different.
Jim McGregor (32:45):
we need, hopefully our industry can influence the
policy makers, but at the sametime, our industry needs to
react and understand that,things are going to change.
And, that globalization, thatpartnership is still very
important to our industry.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, cooperation andcollaboration.
So, I really truly hope thatthis, I mean, the six G working
(33:08):
group just started its efforts,About four or five weeks ago.
Yeah.
So I would really hate to seethat dissolve into regional
Leonard Lee (33:17):
conflicts.
Which, and, but a lot of itcould be just, driven by,
leadership, technologicalleadership.
Yes.
And, actually market leadership.
So when you look at all thedifferent scenarios that you
would use 5G advance for themarket that is leveraging the
technology and expressing thestandardized technology in the
(33:39):
most progressive way, I think isgonna be the country, that
shapes what the nextgeneration's gonna look like,
and whether or not it, the wholeproject, starts to fragment and
bifurcate that's a different,problem that has to be solved.
But I think, as GSMA and allthese, and 3G PP, look forward,
(34:01):
and even the ITU, how do youanticipate the, fragmentation
that may happen and, I.
Reconstitute this, commitmentand understanding of the
importance of, the globalstandardization of technologies,
right?
I think that's gonna be a bigchallenge going forward, because
(34:24):
there's so many forces that aremoving toward breaking
everything apart, right?
So, but hey, I.
We got so serious.
This is what happens when youtalk about tariffs and we're
supposed to be a fun show, Jim.
Hey, this is the most criticaltopic in our industry today.
Have to be serious on us.
Right?
Okay.
(34:44):
Yes.
All right.
But I know that you were reallyexcited and happy About
something that you saw embeddedworld.
So I'm gonna give you anopportunity to talk about that
really quick.
Jim McGregor (34:53):
Actually.
embedded world I thought was, agreat show.
It really highlights the entire.
Semiconductor ecosystem from topto bottom and from, the smallest
embedded applications using, areally small microcontroller all
the way up to, server-based typeapplications.
There was a lot of innovationgoing on there.
Obviously AI was a huge topic,but even seeing companies like
(35:16):
tis getting back intomicrocontrollers and claims that
they have the smallest microcontrol in the world.
A and d on the other end isintroducing their turon.
Epic platform into theirembedded segment only six months
after they introduced it to thecommercial server segment.
And They plan on matching thatin the future.
So it's gonna be not just for.
(35:37):
The standard servers orenterprise class servers or data
center servers, but it's gonnabe available for embedded
applications from day one withthe extended temperature ranges,
with the extended life cyclesand everything else.
Really bringing, if you want tocall it embedded, you want to
call it IOT, whatever you wantto call it.
Bringing all this stuff up tobeing very, very important.
and, startup there in a terrahad a quantum.
(36:01):
Pro or, sorry, a neuromorphicprocessor.
Very impressive.
It, was capable of about a 40parameter model in the size of
about a microcontroller.
Very, very small.
Yeah.
Very impressive.
Just synaptics.
Microchip, Silicon Labs, on andon and on.
Just the level of innovationwe're seeing because of new
technologies.
(36:21):
Yeah.
in terms of semiconductortechnology, in terms of chips,
in terms of AI software, allthese solutions.
it's going to be, fun to seebecause we've talked about AI at
the edge.
And it's kind of been slowlymoving there, but I gotta tell
you man, it is reaching afevered pace and the level of
innovation that's enabled bothfrom the semiconductor
(36:42):
technology and the softwaretechnology, especially in terms
of ai.
Is really there now and 2025 isgoing to be exciting year.
And we're gonna see, it's funny'cause we're trying to do our
forecast for, what you need todo AI processing and everything
else.
And let's face it, there arelike 7 billion smartphones in
(37:02):
our handsets in use around theworld.
Today, small fraction of themcan, do on device ai.
But think about by 2030 the,you're gonna have the vast
majority of those devices.
And not just those, but yourother consumer devices, your
PCs, your pretty much everythingcapable of doing ai.
(37:22):
So, within the next five yearswe're the level of innovation
we're going to see in.
The plethora of electronicsapplications we have out there
is gonna be phenomenal.
And, seeing the semiconductorecosystem rise up to be able to
support that is reallyincredible.
Leonard Lee (37:38):
Yeah, no, that's cool.
I like to remind the audience,or tell the audience if they
don't know that there's been alot of effort, an investment
going on in, AI or what theycall Edge AI these days.
you might be familiar with atiny ml, tiny ml in the
foundation.
now it's called Edge AIFoundation.
(37:59):
this has been an area ofdevelopment RD and innovation
for quite some time.
And, it's good to see thatyou're seeing a lot of progress.
yes.
because I think power efficientcompute, scalable, I.
compute, meaning scaling downand the model scaling down has
been a, those have been theprimary pursuits within, that
(38:21):
particular sector, the embeddedsector.
And, I think what we're seeing,with the work that's been
happening in mobile as well asin the data center now.
a lot of, new possibilities forquote unquote broader edge
computing.
So, edge infrastructure,'causeyou've mentioned what AMD's
doing, but we also, know whatQualcomm's doing there as well.
(38:43):
In terms of bringing AIaccelerators.
to edge infrastructure, but thenalso across, all varieties of,
endpoint devices and so, yeah, alot of exciting stuff.
And so it's good to hear, thatyou are witnessing a lot of,
advancement and traction there.
Jim McGregor (39:01):
yeah, and, a lot of the focus on the solution.
Obviously Qualcomm was veryexcited, mobile World Congress
about their acquisition of EdgeImpulse.
So bringing that expertise thatZach and his crew have from Edge
impulse into Qualcomm.
really enabling a full solution,hardware, software solution for
edge applications, that's gonnabe critical.
(39:23):
and it is incredible.
I think we still have a fewhurdles in terms of
compatibility, everybodyDeveloping their own tools and
not really creating standardizedsolutions out there in the
market, but I think that's gonnawork its way out.
And just the ability to use andleverage open source models is
driving a lot of innovation.
Leonard Lee (39:43):
yeah, my recommendation to the industry,
ultimately, at the end of theday, middleware, don't be afraid
of it, it's just what it is.
Don't wait for standards.
they ironically can.
Stymie innovation, applicationlevel innovation.
It's like if you need somethingto happen, and you need things
(40:05):
to talk to each other,middleware systems, innovation.
Make it happen.
That is what happens.
And it's just a matter of howmuch it's gonna cost, but, if
the solution's worth it, it'llwork itself out.
the middleware as well as theintegration work will pay for
itself.
Jim McGregor (40:23):
I think we're seeing a lot of innovation in a
lot of these iot applications.
We're seeing, obviously,innovation in consumer
applications.
Mm-hmm.
We're seeing innovation inautomotive.
Unfortunately, it's all inChina.
I'm serious when I say that,unfortunately.
Yeah.
That is sad to say that the USand the other Western countries
are so far behind.
we're seeing innovationobviously in, not just what
(40:45):
we're doing with AI and the datacenter, but the data center
construction itself.
Going to more modular solutions.
And anything from the racks tothe, power solutions.
To, even portable data centerswhere you can actually just have
a portable building and justmultiply buildings to create a
data center.
and so we're seeing a lot ofinnovation across the industry
(41:07):
and it's, it is an excitingtime.
Leonard Lee (41:09):
Yeah.
Lenovo bringing, their Neptune,warm water cooling architectures
and systems to, edge appliances.
I thought that was interesting.
Jim McGregor (41:18):
Yeah, actually, there was also a company, and
I'm gonna have to go back andcheck the name, but, it was at
the Intel booth.
It was one of the Intel partnersat Mobile World Congress that
was showing off a water cooledran, so a poll based radio
access network that was fullywater cooled.
Leonard Lee (41:34):
Yeah.
I think it, the name.
Was that at the HP e booth?
I know.
No, it was at I it was at theIBM booth or the Intel booth.
The Intel booth, sorry.
Intel booth, right?
Yeah.
I bumped into a company, threeyears ago that was doing that
kind of stuff.
is it direct cooling or is itlike that, semi immersive.
(41:55):
No, it was direct.
Jim McGregor (41:57):
It was two chip.
It was, and it, you don't thinkabout it, but you know, here's
systems that have to sit out inthe elements all the time and
they have to deal with the dustand everything else.
Well, if you have liquidcooling, you can create a fully
encapsulated, sealedenvironment.
Yeah.
You don't worry about all thoseconditions.
So it, it is amazing, the levelof innovation that's going on in
the industry and we're seeing.
(42:18):
Some of that, innovation at theedge go up to the data center
and some of that innovation inthe data center comes down to
Leonard Lee (42:23):
the edge.
Exactly.
you can see it happening andthat cross pollination, I think
is a super interesting dynamic.
that, we get to witness,
Jim McGregor (42:32):
we should have embedded world and super
computing at the same time.
Leonard Lee (42:38):
be too big of a conference.
Right.
we might get a bit of that whenwe, go to Taipei, next month.
Comtex, right?
Comtex.
Because, believe it or not, theyhave a.
Pretty wide variety of stuffthere, including a lot of fans.
Lots of fans.
Jim McGregor (42:58):
Yeah.
you seem to
Leonard Lee (42:58):
be a fan of fans.
Okay.
Wonderful.
So I think with that, we'll callit a wrap.
Jim McGregor (43:04):
Is that good?
I would just like to say thatthere's a lot of stuff coming
up, you know?
we had TSMC Symposium this weekwe're gonna have Intel Direct
Connect.
So you got two major foundriestalking about next generation,
semiconductor processtechnologies.
TSMC was talking about their a14 process.
This week we're gonna have IBMthink next week we're gonna have
(43:25):
cadence live coming up.
We're going to have RA securityconference.
we're gonna have compute, text,a lot of stuff going on in the
industry, a lot of things comingup.
So look for more of that.
From us together.
Yes.
And individually.
And, we developed a brand new,ai, data center inference t
(43:46):
forecast and TCO model thatwe're gonna be introducing here
the next couple weeks.
there you go.
And we're gonna be doing ourbest for everyone out there to
cover this.
I know we got a little seriouson this one, but I know, so
serious.
We, we had to, if you know aregulator, please send this link
to them and tell them to stopmessing with our industry.
Leonard Lee (44:08):
yeah.
If anything, learn more about itand, be thoughtful.
that's, what I would say.
But, yeah, definitely.
I think they should engage withus.
Yes.
We're gonna help policymakersquite a bit.
so, yeah, with that, Hey Jim,real fun.
I think we need to bring levityto our next episode, and
(44:30):
hopefully we'll have Carljoining us, but, geez, its so
hard to, well,
Jim McGregor (44:34):
we're gonna be in compute text, a couple
margaritas in.
I'm sure we'll have a lot oflevity to bring.
Leonard Lee (44:39):
Yes.
And Taipei.
Taipei is the perfect place toget a margarita.
Ironically it is.
Okay.
So, yeah, lot of exciting stuffcoming up folks.
So, make sure that you continueto, tune into our podcast here.
So, remember to like, share,comment on this episode.
(45:02):
Subscribe to the Rethink podcasthere on YouTube and Buzz, and,
take us on the road on your jog.
And listen to us on yourfavorite, podcast platform and
also, check out, Jim McGregorand the folks at TEUs Research,
good partners of ours here atncur.
And, yeah, follow them.
(45:22):
Jim is one of, if not theleader, in the analyst
community.
And, just a brilliant, partnerto have, but also a great friend
and a tremendous resource forthe industry.
you can go ahead and say it.
Just say the Jim's the ubergeek.
you are, a super nerd.
(45:42):
Okay.
Happy now.
Okay.
Yeah.
and then also, subscribe to thenext curve research portal at
www.
next dash curve for the tech andindustry insights that matter.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome everyone to this next Curve Rethink podcast
episode where we break down thelatest tech industry events and
happenings into the insightsthat matter.
I'm Leonard Lee, executiveAnalyst at ncur, and in this
Silicon Futures episode where wefocus on all the things, related
to semiconductors in theindustry itself.
(00:32):
we're gonna be talking about thehappenings in the month of
March.
April.
So we're doing a little bit of amakeup here, and I am joined by
my good friend and fellowindustry analyst, Jim McGregor
of the Famed Cheerious ResearchGroup.
(00:53):
Do you have a group?
You don't have a group at theend of your No.
Yeah.
It's just curious research.
And so, Jim, how are you?
Good.
How are you doing today?
It's been a while.
We've been super busy, right?
Yes.
It's been a very hectic year.
Dare I say it's still thebeginning of the year.
Is, is that No, it's almost themiddle of the year.
(01:14):
Where's the time going?
I know.
It's really crazy.
So, but before we start, pleaseremember to like, share, react,
and comment on this episode.
Also subscribe here on YouTubeand but Sprout to listen to us
on your favorite podcastplatform and, Also would like to
remind everyone, opinions andstatements made by my guests, in
(01:35):
particular Jim, in this instanceand in this episode, are
entirely his own and don'treflect mine or those of next
curve when we're doing this toprovide an open forum for
discussion and debate andeverything else on all things.
Related to consumer tech,commercial tech, and the
semiconductor industry.
So, Jim, this installment, we'regonna try to do a little bit of
(01:58):
catch up, right?
We, didn't do our March bit.
unfortunately, Carl Fre, who's,another partner in this,
endeavor that we have with thisSilicon Futures podcast isn't
able to join us.
we're gonna hit on March andApril, right?
Yes.
Jim McGregor (02:14):
that's a lot to hit on.
I know.
March I was gone the entire month of March, the
entire month.
Leonard Lee (02:19):
I'm proud to say that I managed to spend some
time at home, but you're right.
we have a term for that.
It's called lazy.
Yeah.
Wow.
Hey, Jensen won.
Come on.
that's basically what he wassaying, right?
Yes.
Make my people lazy.
Lazy.
That's a secret to success.
Exactly.
(02:41):
speaking of March, we had, andyou know, Jensen Wong, we had
GTC as well as MWC and EmbeddedWorld.
And I know you've been chompingat the bit to talk about
embedded world because that wasa really big event, but mm-hmm.
Obviously something that really.
resonated with you this year.
Yes.
so I take it we're not gonnatalk too much about GTC, right?
(03:04):
Because we already have aseparate podcast on that.
So folks, if you, I quite
Jim McGregor (03:09):
honestly, I think we should talk about some of the
most recent, things that havehappened.
the intel learnings, the shiftof manufacturing by Apple to
India.
the biggest thing to talk aboutright now is the tariff
scramble.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the way I phrase itbecause everyone's scrambling.
Nobody knew how to reallyprepare for it.
So everyone right now is tryingto figure out, how's it going to
(03:30):
impact them, because it'schanging every day.
And how can they, expand theirsupply and manufacturing
resources so that they can avoidthe tariffs or limit the impact
of the tariffs.
Leonard Lee (03:43):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, that and a lotof the geopolitical mm-hmm.
events that have transpired inthe last two months, it's pretty
overwhelming actually.
Right.
And, that's probably the mosttop of mind thing in the
industry.
and the sourcing.
(04:04):
The security, resilience, allthese topics are, are really
coming into play and, I.
So, yeah, we can definitelytouch on that.
So did you want to expand onthat right now or do you want
to, do you want to we, I thinkit's a great
Jim McGregor (04:19):
place to start because I mean, really that is
probably the most critical thinggoing in our industry right now
is adjusting to.
This tariff, this trade war thathas erupted over, the US tariffs
and not understanding really howthings are gonna, and I've
actually had this debate withsome people and they're like,
oh,, it's gonna be minimal'causeit's just this amount and blah,
(04:40):
blah, blah.
I'm like, no, it's not when youstart factoring in, you got, 25%
tariffs coming into the US onsteel and aluminum.
That impacts almost everyindustry that you have to talk
about.
Rare Earth materials, which area huge, huge leverage point that
China has when they control 85%of the rare earth material
(05:00):
manufacturing at this point intime, or processing, I should
say.
and some people have said, okay,well yeah, but there's plenty of
rare earth materials in the USand other parts of the world.
It can take three to five oreven 10 years to bring that to
process.
Right, right.
So I think that the worst thingwe have going on right now are
those tariffs, and especiallythis battle between the US and
(05:23):
China.
We've spent decades.
Creating a global ecosystem andleveraging the expertise, the
labor resources, themanufacturing capability, all
the resources that go intobuilding a very robust
electronics industry.
and now that's being torn apartand it's gonna be very painful.
Leonard Lee (05:44):
Yeah.
I think there's more going onhere than just, simply tariffs,
right?
you mentioned trade war, and youalso mentioned the rare earths,
We're also starting to see, somemovement on the services front,
right?
I think it's very difficult forany, company to really navigate
what's happening right nowbecause the level of volatility,
(06:08):
in terms of the policy, how it'sbeing expressed, it flip flops,
dramatically, literally day today.
So.
not a easy situation for the,industry at all.
Jim McGregor (06:20):
Well, and I think the.
Policy makers, and I'll leave itat that, are underestimating the
impact.
Yeah.
Obviously you have it on thefinal product.
You have it on the supply chain.
Yeah.
You have it on, legalenvironments.
it could impact, IP protections.
Across borders, now you evenhave it going out to consumers.
(06:41):
We're already seeing this whereCanadian consumers are trying to
avoid any US products.
so I mean that, it goes from theheart of our industry all the
way out to the consumer and it'sgonna have a huge impact.
and even as you mentioned,services.
are companies willing to use aservice if it's headquartered in
the US or if it's headquarteredin China, or even if they have
(07:03):
offices in those countries?
it's going to be a verydifficult situation and.
It's going to be a difficultregulatory situation to
navigate.
once again, things changing dayby day, but also knowing that,
there's likely to be otherissues with technology transfers
or IP sharing or any type ofinteraction or transfer of data.
(07:27):
So it's going to be a challenge.
going into 2025, I thought itwas the most exciting time for
our industry.
Yeah.
just the direction we were goingwith AI and AI is still huge and
still going millions of miles anhour.
We have a whole new forecast forthat, and it's blowing away
anything that we did before.
the demand is insatiable, but.
(07:48):
At the same token, whereeverything seemed to be moving
in the same direction.
think of the wireless industry.
5G was the first wirelesstechnology where from day one
there was a single standard forthe entire world.
From day one, and we've had thatgoing forward and it's really
propelling the industry.
And now we're threatening tobreak all this effort apart.
(08:10):
Yeah.
Over, this trade battle overthese IP issues, over, all these
other political issues.
the electronics industryunfortunately has become a pawn
of the political world.
Leonard Lee (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm glad that you brought upthe whole.
Topic of ip and at the end ofthe day, what's really being,
threatened.
If not compromised in theprocess of being compromised is
that level of global trust.
Right.
You mentioned 5G, and this isall based on trust.
(08:45):
This is about literally industryand regulators as well as
government supporting.
a standard, I'm not gonna sayopen.
It's more of a standard fortechnologies so that these
technologies can scale.
And so going forward, dependingon how the tariff conversation
and the trade relations play outand the tech relations play out,
(09:09):
we might be looking at a veryfragmented, trust landscape.
In fact, that's probably alreadyin play right now.
I think not only thesemiconductor industry has to
ask itself, but the broader TMT,'cause we have to bring content
in here as well, right?
these are all, industries thathave benefited from this global
(09:32):
standardization, markets inorder to scale and, deliver on
this, ubiquitous benefit.
for consumers as well asenterprises, right?
What happens when that allbecomes dismantled?
And I agree with you, this issomething that, policymakers
around the globe need tocontemplate and are starting to
(09:53):
contemplate.
it's just a very, very complextopic and it's also something
that's going to be verydifficult to, navigate.
all the critical considerations,because the landscape is
shifting so quickly, right?
But, unfortunately it looks likethings are moving toward
(10:14):
distrust.
Versus trust.
And as you, I think most peopleknow you can lose trust in a
second, right?
It takes years, if notgenerations to build trust.
And I think this is, number one,a big.
Risk for the industry, becausethe dismantling of trust is
(10:36):
something that, is not trivial.
And we may have to startthinking about, well, what is
this trust landscape going to,look like?
What, where is it movingtowards?
And how well new networks oftrust be built, because that's
where you're gonna see pocketsof value, market opportunities.
(10:57):
And so these tams that everyonewas looking at are all of a
sudden becoming very fragmented,and this is just gonna be really
tricky for, the entire industry.
And I don't think there's a,solution at the moment, right?
Everyone is just trying tofigure out how they need to
react or not react or maybe,take their time to examine, what
a sensible play might be, in anotherwise, super volatile,
(11:21):
situation.
Jim McGregor (11:23):
Well, and you mentioned trust.
Yeah.
That trust in the technology,that trust between technology
providers, that trust of theconsumer, all results from our
industry working togetherholistically.
Yeah.
our industry has overcome issueswith, obviously with security,
with safety, with everythingelse.
Think of the fact that we'venever had a major disaster
(11:45):
around a semiconductor fat.
That's a huge accomplishment,especially when you, someone
that knows some of the chemicalsthey use, like hydrofluoric
acid, it is a hugeaccomplishment.
So if there's one message, and Ireally, really hope that we get
this podcast out to, governmentregulators around the world.
Mm-hmm.
And say that, listen, ourindustry and innovation thrive
(12:07):
when politics stays out of it.
Yeah.
And that is a key point.
granted, the electronicsindustry is so important to, the
political realm because itdrives GDP, it drives growth, it
drives innovation, and itshould.
The best way you can do that isto support it as a whole and to
(12:27):
support it through, incentivesand everything else.
But when you start puttingrestrictions on it.
You really hamper everythingthat we do.
quite honestly, every governmentshould learn their lesson by now
that when you start hamperingtechnology innovation, you
really threaten the technologydevelopment in your own country.
Leonard Lee (12:47):
Yeah.
Especially when you, can arguethat, you're in a leadership
position and you are somehow,now succumbing to this notion
that you're not, I think.
You're making a great pointthere because.
while TSMC might have,leadership on the fab side, the
manufacturing side of things,from a design perspective,
(13:10):
systems a technologyperspective, it, it still the
United States with all of thebig brands, that we all know so
well, that have amazingtechnology portfolios, but are
also exhibiting, productleadership.
And market leadership through,leadership products.
Right.
Nvidia.
(13:31):
Perfect example, right?
so I think discounting thesethings can be really,
detrimental because as you startto look at what your policy
needs to look like, you have tobe cognizant of whatever
leadership.
Is in play at the moment.
And I think a lot of this isalso relevant to what's happened
(13:55):
with 5G, and six G, where, thepolicy makers may not be
appreciating the importance ofthis technology because it's
gone through a hype cycle.
I say that has beendetrimentally disregarded, but
um, China is definitely noteasing on the throttle on mobile
(14:15):
technologies.
Right.
In fact, they're doubling down.
and so they're looking atwhatever kind of advantages that
they can, lean into and maybeinvest in and accelerate, to
have a competitive, advantage,going forward.
And so, yeah, I agree with you.
one of the things that has beena huge benefit for the industry
(14:38):
is global competition.
Jim McGregor (14:39):
I'd call it coopetition
Leonard Lee (14:41):
because it's cooperation and competition.
Right, right.
You're, you're right.
and, to the credit of, many ofthe Chinese companies that have
engaged over the years in, thisglobal electronics, industry and
its advancements, they havecontributed.
I I think the myth is that theyhaven't.
(15:02):
I think it's well documentedthat they have contributed and
have been, active participants,in the advancement of, the
electronics industry as a wholeand also, the semiconductor and
AI sectors, so I think those areall important things to
recognize.
(15:23):
as a policy maker, otherwise youcan shoot yourself in the foot.
And then also, considering allthe things that you mentioned
earlier, Jim, about supply chainand, the structure of, the
electronics industry as well asthe semiconductor industry,
which is a subset.
being very, very clear on that.
so that, as you're looking atdeveloping your policies, you're
(15:46):
doing it a thoughtful andstrategic way, right?
That helps you achieve whatevergoal that you have, whether
it's, resiliency, supply chain,resiliency, Or, national
security.
that all has to be thoughtfulbecause at some point, if your
industry and your industry,champions, have their market
shrinking.
(16:07):
that doesn't, help advance any,objective I think even national
security.
Jim McGregor (16:12):
a message to the.
Industry itself.
Vendors need to think globally,obviously not just in terms of
their customer base, but interms of their engineer
resources, their manufacturingand support resources.
I think a lot of the companiesare, we've seen even some of
those results of the past month,apple shifting, smartphone
(16:33):
manufacturing to India.
That's a huge announcement.
also, TSMC.
Introducing fabs in the usplaying on introducing fabs in
Europe and in Japan in theirfuture.
So I think that we're seeingthat and that that's really an
important thing.
I think the next step a lot ofthese companies need to take is
they need to think aboutexpanding beyond their
(16:55):
traditional markets.
And we've seen some of this,obviously in automotive.
Automotive is a great examplewhere the whole value chain is
thrown into disarray because nowyou have semiconductor providers
not just providing chips.
But providing the boards andcomplete system level solutions.
Yeah, and I think that's almostwhat we need, what a lot of
companies need to think about.
Because we don't know how allthese trade tensions are gonna
(17:19):
play out, but it's reallyimportant that you think about.
Not just where you playing thevalue chain, but you know where
you can expand and enhance thatvalue chain.
Nvidia is a great example.
It went from being a chipcompany to a board company, to a
systems company, to a softwarecompany, to a services company.
I mean they pretty much providethe entire stack.
(17:40):
For AI solutions from embeddedapplications like robotics, all
the way through, the datacenter.
For the high-end AI factory datacenters.
I think it's really critical.
And I think the last thing thatthese companies need to do, and
I'll be honest with you, I don'tthink enough of'em are thinking,
even in the technology industry,are thinking enough about it.
(18:01):
Not just how they can use ai,but how AI changes their
business model.
Yeah.
and some companies, like I askedJensen Halling that this Ed GTCI
said, how do you, where do yousee.
Nvidia in 10 years.
He's like, Jim, I wish I knew.
that was a great answer becausehis business model is changing
constantly around ai.
(18:21):
He likes to say that theyinnovate at the speed of light
and they really are.
And it's not just their productsand services, but for the
technology it's also theirbusiness model.
And I think a lot of technologycompanies, as well as other
companies throughout otherindustries.
Need to think about how theirbusiness model changes.
and I really think that thatglobalization, that, change in
(18:43):
business model, and change inwhere you play in your
industries is really gonna drivea lot of change and hopefully
overcomes some of the issueswe're seeing today with the
political environment.
Leonard Lee (18:55):
Yeah.
And well, I might.
I might beg to differ a littlebit.
I generally agree with what youjust said, Jim.
but I also think that, companieslike Nvidia and others have been
a victim of the hype as well.
I can appreciate theadvancements that have happened
with quote unquote ai, but morespecifically, we need to be
talking about.
(19:16):
Generative AI and what'shappening there?
I think, beyond some of theprototypical use cases and
applications that it's beingleveraged for, such as, these
chatbots like chat, GPT and someof the reasoning models that are
now starting to come out, theseare still, we're still in early
days in terms of thesetechnologies being mature and I
(19:39):
think.
One of the things that hasvictimized the industry is the
hype that, and sort of thesemisconceptions that somehow, AI
innovation is specifically tiedto the number of GPUs or the
kind of GPUs that you haveaccess to.
I think another big news itemthat came out.
(20:00):
this in the past two months wasHuawei introducing their AI
cloud matrix.
You know, I think it's like 384, right?
Mm-hmm.
Where it's an all optical,system, right?
no copper, apparently.
And, it can scale out largerthan a Blackwell.
(20:22):
MVL 72, according to, ourfriends at semi analysis that
did a study on this.
So, you could be chasing thewrong rabbit if you don't
understand these things at asystem level.
But more importantly,understanding.
Well, where are we with thistechnology and what is it and
(20:42):
what sort of impact is it reallyhaving?
AI has always been difficult.
it's always been costly.
It's never been easy.
And so some of these,aspirational use cases and
applications that everyone talksabout are difficult to achieve,
right?
And so I think, rather than, thepolicymakers.
(21:05):
simply subscribing to, let'ssay, the fantasy and the fear.
Of these technologies, thereneeds to be more of a grounded,
strategic as well as a tactical,assessment of what they're
looking at, when it comes toquote unquote ai.
And that needs to be unpackedvery, very well.
(21:26):
And it's not always the casethat you're married to whatever
buzzword is prevailing at aparticular time.
because about a year and a halfago, there was all this talk
about the GPU, right?
And as you and I have talkedabout, and Carl have talked
about on this show, it's nolonger about the GPU or the
chip.
(21:47):
It's about the system, and wetalked about the importance of
interconnect and networking.
This is something that Chinese,in particular, Huawei is very
good at.
And guess what?
At a system level, they havebeen able to innovate and do
some very interesting things ontop of some very novel
approaches to the actual AIsoftware.
(22:08):
that is not part of necessarilywhat we're seeing in the
portfolio and the approachesthat, AI companies, I hate using
that term, AI compute companies,but you know, the AI ecosystem
in the west is using, inparticular the United States.
And so, there's a lot tonavigate here and a lot of
(22:30):
complexities.
And the funny thing is we're yousee a lot of policy makers still
fixated on quote unquote, thechip.
You still see it.
Jim McGregor (22:40):
Right.
and Jensen Wong probably madethe most accurate statement that
the new univ compute is the datacenter.
So that system you talk aboutisn't just the chip.
It is everything that goes into,it's even the power.
It's the cooling.
It's everything cooling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is in giant.
It is a giant server, if youwill.
(23:00):
And you're right.
It is.
And policymakers, I think,really can't understand the
grasp of a how quickly thistechnology is moving.
All of the technology, and thedemand that really exists out
there for it.
What We let the rabbit out ofthe box.
It's not slowing.
And you're right, it's stillimmature.
(23:21):
We're still not seeing theadoption at the enterprise level
that I think we should have,but.
The consumer level, the pro userlevel, it's off the charts.
We projected a nine, we justfinished our, forecast update.
We projected a 19 x increasefrom, 2024 to 2024, or during
2024.
(23:41):
Mm-hmm.
In just token consumption.
Mm-hmm.
It was over 500 x.
Over 500.
That's crazy.
And that's just tokens.
That doesn't include the imageand video creation.
and not to mention the, the TCO,the cost of these systems and to
run these systems in thesesolutions.
Once again, I'm not gonna addthese solutions.
(24:03):
it's huge.
It's massive.
heard a stat the other day thatwas talking about chat, GPT.
And saying, just people sayingthank you to chat, GPT is
costing millions because it'sdoing inference processing every
time you type something in.
So consumers and users arefinding ways, very much like the
(24:24):
internet, finding ways to use itand really driving that level of
innovation, driving demand justthrough the roof.
there is no stopping this.
And I think anything that theydo to get in the way is really
gonna hamper that.
Leonard Lee (24:39):
Yeah.
I agree with you.
But again, going back to thepoint I made earlier, the
association of the GPU.
Okay.
In very simplistic terms, tosomehow, this idea that is the
sole factor in influencing quoteunquote AI leadership.
Okay?
And the reason why I bring thisup in simple terms is because
(25:01):
that's how most people thinkabout these things, including
policy makers.
That is not good enough.
I think that's really the pointwe're trying to make here.
Right.
And like even, you're mentioninghere of the exponential growth
of tokens.
Well, yes.
You're gonna see that,especially as you see this
transition toward reasoningmodels that are using long
(25:24):
thinking, it's, they're going togenerate.
A lot more tokens becausethey're, theoretically thinking,
for a particular request,they're gonna this stuff doesn't
come for free.
It's not a one shot inferencethat is doing it's inferencing
for a very, very long timethrough this auto regressive
(25:44):
process.
and that's also separate fromcompute.
And that's the other thing thatthe folks at Nvidia reminded us,
right?
not every token is, createdequal.
depending on the system that youhave, you're gonna be using
either more or less compute fora token, depending on, what sort
(26:04):
of application you're running.
So there's a lot of, Layers topeel back and understand.
And that's one of the biggestchallenges, I think, not only
for policymakers but for theindustry as well.
Because to your point, thisstuff is moving so quickly.
There are folks in the industrythat don't even really know
where we are with things.
(26:26):
You know what I'm saying?
Other than maybe those leadingedge folks, who have esoteric
knowledge about what's going on,who are some of the folks that
we bump into and talk to all thetime.
But that unpacking outside ofthat community, that small,
group of.
Folks, it is not a trivial,task.
(26:47):
And I think what I'm trying todo here is highlight, in
particular to policymakers, thescale and the level of
complexity of, what they need todo.
To, arrive at good policy,right?
You do have to navigate, throughall this complexity and then
synthesize things back to, whatare those key drivers that are
(27:09):
gonna shape your policy?
And so for anyone to sit thereand say, Hey, I understand this
stuff, and I can come up with agreat policy based on these
numbers that somebody's shownme, or a couple of bullet points
that someone's, Present to me.
I don't think that's enough.
Jim McGregor (27:24):
I have that be very, very thoughtful of this
stuff.
I have the answer, and you canuse a disclaimer on this one.
We're talking about how you canuse AI to make you more
productive, productive and orreplace jobs.
We use AI to replace the policymakers.
Well, that's what they'relooking at doing in, UAE, right?
Absolutely.
Let's get rid of'em alltogether.
Leonard Lee (27:47):
Yeah.
Web, what do they call that?
it's a crypto concept.
It's a Dao, right?
Disaggregated somethingorganization.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All this stuff is tied togetherin a weird way though.
I remember.
no, seriously, back in 2015, Iforgot the name of that one,
(28:08):
company.
This is when I, where was I?
I was in, Barcelona and this waswhen blockchain was a really big
deal.
and, all the crypto stuff wasstarting to go ballistic.
I forgot the name of thecompany.
but there was An ai, humanoid,what do they call it?
animatronic, doodad that, arobot was going crazy, right?
(28:28):
Yeah.
Early robot.
Yeah.
but I, I recall, the inventor,Mentioning that tokens was going
to, were gonna be the basis forai.
And so it's really interesting.
I, I'll have to add, thatindividual on the notes, but,
yeah, that, that was pretty goodforesight on his part.
(28:48):
So yeah, a lot of the stuff isrelated and, there's no, it
shouldn't be really that much ofa.
a stretch to, associate Nvidiawith a lot of these trends as
well, because, GPUs were usedfor were, I would say, or maybe
even still used for, cryptomining, right?
Mm-hmm.
So.
(29:08):
And then you had the metaverse,and then now we have all this
generative AI stuff.
So no, now we have Agentic aiagentic.
Okay.
You and your agentic ai.
So
Jim McGregor (29:20):
reasoning ai.
Okay.
Let's call it reasoning
Leonard Lee (29:22):
ai.
Yeah, I think that's more, look,I got really confused, at GTC
and, NVIDIA's use of Vient ai.
I think it means somethingdifferent.
For them then what you'rehearing outside of, uh, GTC or
the NVIDIA ecosphere?
Jim McGregor (29:40):
Well, agentic AI should mean not only the ability
to reason, but also the abilityto make decisions.
Leonard Lee (29:47):
and then actions.
Right, right, right.
Because, that action part isreally where A lot of folks
heads are at with the agent ai,right?
Well, and that you're closingthe loop, you're trying to close
the loop and have autonomousautomation.
I think, the AI community,especially the one around,
(30:07):
Nvidia, thinks of it more interms of the long thinking.
Jim McGregor (30:11):
well, it's also for physical ai, it's going to
enable the autonomous machines.
It's a critical step forespecially humanoid robots,
right?
Yeah.
Which we're seeing a huge amountof innovation in at this point
in time.
So that's a key message here isthe fact that our industry is
working together.
Our industry is workingeffectively, and these, this
(30:33):
trade war is just inhibiting,innovation.
And it's gonna inhibit GDP, it'sgonna inhibit markets, it's
gonna inhibit consumers.
It's a bad situation.
Leonard Lee (30:44):
Yeah.
But you know, Jim, I think we dohave to recognize, when we do
look at the geopolitics where wedo have conflicts going on
around the world, nationalsecurity, is a legitimate
concern, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's, I think what you and I aretrying to say is that, just make
(31:05):
sure that you don't shootyourself in the foot and that
you don't, buy into.
Unintended consequences, whichoftentimes happens if you don't
go through that process that weoutlined earlier, right?
Where you're unpacking things toa degree that you should, and
you're doing due diligence, butthen you're also synthesizing
that back down into, key factorsand drivers that should.
(31:29):
help you shape a good policy orend a good strategy, right, as a
Jim McGregor (31:35):
policymaker.
And the only people, or the onlyway we can increase security,
not just for us, but foreverybody around the world, is
through our industry.
Our industry is the only onethat can achieve that.
And.
I think we've actually done avery good job of that.
we still have hackers.
We still have continuedevolution of threats.
and, we're even entering thequantum era where we're gonna
(31:57):
have new types of threats comingout.
But, our industry has continuedto increase in addressing or
risen to address those threatsas a whole.
So, I still think it should be ahands off policy.
Leonard Lee (32:13):
Okay.
All right.
I think it should be balanced.
Maybe you'll agree.
Hands off is like, to me, Idon't know if that's going to be
something that, you know,
Jim McGregor (32:22):
really
Leonard Lee (32:23):
subscribed
Jim McGregor (32:23):
to.
I know to walk away from apolicymaker when they put a
hyphen in semiconductor, or whenthey say silicone instead of
silicon.
Yeah.
Um, you know, or silicon,
Leonard Lee (32:37):
you know, who would've known that there were
so many ways of pronouncingsilicon?
Jim McGregor (32:41):
not silicone.
Leonard Lee (32:43):
Silicone is something different.
Something very, very different.
Jim McGregor (32:45):
we need, hopefully our industry can influence the
policy makers, but at the sametime, our industry needs to
react and understand that,things are going to change.
And, that globalization, thatpartnership is still very
important to our industry.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, cooperation andcollaboration.
So, I really truly hope thatthis, I mean, the six G working
(33:08):
group just started its efforts,About four or five weeks ago.
Yeah.
So I would really hate to seethat dissolve into regional
Leonard Lee (33:17):
conflicts.
Which, and, but a lot of itcould be just, driven by,
leadership, technologicalleadership.
Yes.
And, actually market leadership.
So when you look at all thedifferent scenarios that you
would use 5G advance for themarket that is leveraging the
technology and expressing thestandardized technology in the
(33:39):
most progressive way, I think isgonna be the country, that
shapes what the nextgeneration's gonna look like,
and whether or not it, the wholeproject, starts to fragment and
bifurcate that's a different,problem that has to be solved.
But I think, as GSMA and allthese, and 3G PP, look forward,
(34:01):
and even the ITU, how do youanticipate the, fragmentation
that may happen and, I.
Reconstitute this, commitmentand understanding of the
importance of, the globalstandardization of technologies,
right?
I think that's gonna be a bigchallenge going forward, because
(34:24):
there's so many forces that aremoving toward breaking
everything apart, right?
So, but hey, I.
We got so serious.
This is what happens when youtalk about tariffs and we're
supposed to be a fun show, Jim.
Hey, this is the most criticaltopic in our industry today.
Have to be serious on us.
Right?
Okay.
(34:44):
Yes.
All right.
But I know that you were reallyexcited and happy About
something that you saw embeddedworld.
So I'm gonna give you anopportunity to talk about that
really quick.
Jim McGregor (34:53):
Actually.
embedded world I thought was, agreat show.
It really highlights the entire.
Semiconductor ecosystem from topto bottom and from, the smallest
embedded applications using, areally small microcontroller all
the way up to, server-based typeapplications.
There was a lot of innovationgoing on there.
Obviously AI was a huge topic,but even seeing companies like
(35:16):
tis getting back intomicrocontrollers and claims that
they have the smallest microcontrol in the world.
A and d on the other end isintroducing their turon.
Epic platform into theirembedded segment only six months
after they introduced it to thecommercial server segment.
And They plan on matching thatin the future.
So it's gonna be not just for.
(35:37):
The standard servers orenterprise class servers or data
center servers, but it's gonnabe available for embedded
applications from day one withthe extended temperature ranges,
with the extended life cyclesand everything else.
Really bringing, if you want tocall it embedded, you want to
call it IOT, whatever you wantto call it.
Bringing all this stuff up tobeing very, very important.
and, startup there in a terrahad a quantum.
(36:01):
Pro or, sorry, a neuromorphicprocessor.
Very impressive.
It, was capable of about a 40parameter model in the size of
about a microcontroller.
Very, very small.
Yeah.
Very impressive.
Just synaptics.
Microchip, Silicon Labs, on andon and on.
Just the level of innovationwe're seeing because of new
technologies.
(36:21):
Yeah.
in terms of semiconductortechnology, in terms of chips,
in terms of AI software, allthese solutions.
it's going to be, fun to seebecause we've talked about AI at
the edge.
And it's kind of been slowlymoving there, but I gotta tell
you man, it is reaching afevered pace and the level of
innovation that's enabled bothfrom the semiconductor
(36:42):
technology and the softwaretechnology, especially in terms
of ai.
Is really there now and 2025 isgoing to be exciting year.
And we're gonna see, it's funny'cause we're trying to do our
forecast for, what you need todo AI processing and everything
else.
And let's face it, there arelike 7 billion smartphones in
(37:02):
our handsets in use around theworld.
Today, small fraction of themcan, do on device ai.
But think about by 2030 the,you're gonna have the vast
majority of those devices.
And not just those, but yourother consumer devices, your
PCs, your pretty much everythingcapable of doing ai.
(37:22):
So, within the next five yearswe're the level of innovation
we're going to see in.
The plethora of electronicsapplications we have out there
is gonna be phenomenal.
And, seeing the semiconductorecosystem rise up to be able to
support that is reallyincredible.
Leonard Lee (37:38):
Yeah, no, that's cool.
I like to remind the audience,or tell the audience if they
don't know that there's been alot of effort, an investment
going on in, AI or what theycall Edge AI these days.
you might be familiar with atiny ml, tiny ml in the
foundation.
now it's called Edge AIFoundation.
(37:59):
this has been an area ofdevelopment RD and innovation
for quite some time.
And, it's good to see thatyou're seeing a lot of progress.
yes.
because I think power efficientcompute, scalable, I.
compute, meaning scaling downand the model scaling down has
been a, those have been theprimary pursuits within, that
(38:21):
particular sector, the embeddedsector.
And, I think what we're seeing,with the work that's been
happening in mobile as well asin the data center now.
a lot of, new possibilities forquote unquote broader edge
computing.
So, edge infrastructure,'causeyou've mentioned what AMD's
doing, but we also, know whatQualcomm's doing there as well.
(38:43):
In terms of bringing AIaccelerators.
to edge infrastructure, but thenalso across, all varieties of,
endpoint devices and so, yeah, alot of exciting stuff.
And so it's good to hear, thatyou are witnessing a lot of,
advancement and traction there.
Jim McGregor (39:01):
yeah, and, a lot of the focus on the solution.
Obviously Qualcomm was veryexcited, mobile World Congress
about their acquisition of EdgeImpulse.
So bringing that expertise thatZach and his crew have from Edge
impulse into Qualcomm.
really enabling a full solution,hardware, software solution for
edge applications, that's gonnabe critical.
(39:23):
and it is incredible.
I think we still have a fewhurdles in terms of
compatibility, everybodyDeveloping their own tools and
not really creating standardizedsolutions out there in the
market, but I think that's gonnawork its way out.
And just the ability to use andleverage open source models is
driving a lot of innovation.
Leonard Lee (39:43):
yeah, my recommendation to the industry,
ultimately, at the end of theday, middleware, don't be afraid
of it, it's just what it is.
Don't wait for standards.
they ironically can.
Stymie innovation, applicationlevel innovation.
It's like if you need somethingto happen, and you need things
(40:05):
to talk to each other,middleware systems, innovation.
Make it happen.
That is what happens.
And it's just a matter of howmuch it's gonna cost, but, if
the solution's worth it, it'llwork itself out.
the middleware as well as theintegration work will pay for
itself.
Jim McGregor (40:23):
I think we're seeing a lot of innovation in a
lot of these iot applications.
We're seeing, obviously,innovation in consumer
applications.
Mm-hmm.
We're seeing innovation inautomotive.
Unfortunately, it's all inChina.
I'm serious when I say that,unfortunately.
Yeah.
That is sad to say that the USand the other Western countries
are so far behind.
we're seeing innovationobviously in, not just what
(40:45):
we're doing with AI and the datacenter, but the data center
construction itself.
Going to more modular solutions.
And anything from the racks tothe, power solutions.
To, even portable data centerswhere you can actually just have
a portable building and justmultiply buildings to create a
data center.
and so we're seeing a lot ofinnovation across the industry
(41:07):
and it's, it is an excitingtime.
Leonard Lee (41:09):
Yeah.
Lenovo bringing, their Neptune,warm water cooling architectures
and systems to, edge appliances.
I thought that was interesting.
Jim McGregor (41:18):
Yeah, actually, there was also a company, and
I'm gonna have to go back andcheck the name, but, it was at
the Intel booth.
It was one of the Intel partnersat Mobile World Congress that
was showing off a water cooledran, so a poll based radio
access network that was fullywater cooled.
Leonard Lee (41:34):
Yeah.
I think it, the name.
Was that at the HP e booth?
I know.
No, it was at I it was at theIBM booth or the Intel booth.
The Intel booth, sorry.
Intel booth, right?
Yeah.
I bumped into a company, threeyears ago that was doing that
kind of stuff.
is it direct cooling or is itlike that, semi immersive.
(41:55):
No, it was direct.
Jim McGregor (41:57):
It was two chip.
It was, and it, you don't thinkabout it, but you know, here's
systems that have to sit out inthe elements all the time and
they have to deal with the dustand everything else.
Well, if you have liquidcooling, you can create a fully
encapsulated, sealedenvironment.
Yeah.
You don't worry about all thoseconditions.
So it, it is amazing, the levelof innovation that's going on in
the industry and we're seeing.
(42:18):
Some of that, innovation at theedge go up to the data center
and some of that innovation inthe data center comes down to
Leonard Lee (42:23):
the edge.
Exactly.
you can see it happening andthat cross pollination, I think
is a super interesting dynamic.
that, we get to witness,
Jim McGregor (42:32):
we should have embedded world and super
computing at the same time.
Leonard Lee (42:38):
be too big of a conference.
Right.
we might get a bit of that whenwe, go to Taipei, next month.
Comtex, right?
Comtex.
Because, believe it or not, theyhave a.
Pretty wide variety of stuffthere, including a lot of fans.
Lots of fans.
Jim McGregor (42:58):
Yeah.
you seem to
Leonard Lee (42:58):
be a fan of fans.
Okay.
Wonderful.
So I think with that, we'll callit a wrap.
Jim McGregor (43:04):
Is that good?
I would just like to say thatthere's a lot of stuff coming
up, you know?
we had TSMC Symposium this weekwe're gonna have Intel Direct
Connect.
So you got two major foundriestalking about next generation,
semiconductor processtechnologies.
TSMC was talking about their a14 process.
This week we're gonna have IBMthink next week we're gonna have
(43:25):
cadence live coming up.
We're going to have RA securityconference.
we're gonna have compute, text,a lot of stuff going on in the
industry, a lot of things comingup.
So look for more of that.
From us together.
Yes.
And individually.
And, we developed a brand new,ai, data center inference t
(43:46):
forecast and TCO model thatwe're gonna be introducing here
the next couple weeks.
there you go.
And we're gonna be doing ourbest for everyone out there to
cover this.
I know we got a little seriouson this one, but I know, so
serious.
We, we had to, if you know aregulator, please send this link
to them and tell them to stopmessing with our industry.
Leonard Lee (44:08):
yeah.
If anything, learn more about itand, be thoughtful.
that's, what I would say.
But, yeah, definitely.
I think they should engage withus.
Yes.
We're gonna help policymakersquite a bit.
so, yeah, with that, Hey Jim,real fun.
I think we need to bring levityto our next episode, and
(44:30):
hopefully we'll have Carljoining us, but, geez, its so
hard to, well,
Jim McGregor (44:34):
we're gonna be in compute text, a couple
margaritas in.
I'm sure we'll have a lot oflevity to bring.
Leonard Lee (44:39):
Yes.
And Taipei.
Taipei is the perfect place toget a margarita.
Ironically it is.
Okay.
So, yeah, lot of exciting stuffcoming up folks.
So, make sure that you continueto, tune into our podcast here.
So, remember to like, share,comment on this episode.
(45:02):
Subscribe to the Rethink podcasthere on YouTube and Buzz, and,
take us on the road on your jog.
And listen to us on yourfavorite, podcast platform and
also, check out, Jim McGregorand the folks at TEUs Research,
good partners of ours here atncur.
And, yeah, follow them.
(45:22):
Jim is one of, if not theleader, in the analyst
community.
And, just a brilliant, partnerto have, but also a great friend
and a tremendous resource forthe industry.
you can go ahead and say it.
Just say the Jim's the ubergeek.
you are, a super nerd.
(45:42):
Okay.
Happy now.
Okay.
Yeah.
and then also, subscribe to thenext curve research portal at
www.
next dash curve for the tech andindustry insights that matter.
We'll see you next time.
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