January 30, 2025 • 43 mins
It's been three years in the making but neXt Curve made it happen! Leonard Lee finally had Mischa Dohler, VP of Emerging Technologies at Ericsson on the reThink Podcast to discuss what is hot in tech for 2025 on a whim. Unscripted, press record and away the two went to cover a wide range of tech topics that will matter in 2025 from 5G to AI.
Mischa and Leonard stumble upon the follow topics:
- Introducing Mischa Dohler, musician, technologist, futurist (2:50)
- What's on Mischa's tech radar? (5:30)
- Remote health and emergency services (8:40)
- 5G's maturity and associated opportunities (11:05)
- What happened to the Metaverse and where is it going? (13:31)
- The unappreciated present and future of the smartphone (18:45)
- The XR + AI dynamic - catalytic for 5G? (21:20)
- What does Mischa think about the overall AI trend? (23:30)
- Who started the jacket thing, Mischa or Jensen? (25:50)
- Mischa's AAA pillars for telecom's future (29:03)
- Mischa's view on AI's impact - Alpha Fold (29:45)
- The economics of our AI future - dystopian or utopian? (30:29)
- The great opportunity for AI misuse (31:14)
- Trust Infrastructure: Network APIs and the role of Aduna (34:23)
Hit both Mischa and Leonard on LinkedIn and take part in their industry and tech insights.
Please subscribe to our podcast which will be featured on the neXt Curve YouTube Channel. Check out the audio version on BuzzSprout - https://nextcurvepodcast.buzzsprout.com - or find us on your favorite Podcast platform.
Also, subscribe to the neXt Curve research portal at www.next-curve.com for the tech and industry insights that matter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Next curve.
Leonard Lee (00:09):
Hey everyone.
Welcome to next curves.
Rethink podcast.
I'm Leonard Lee, executiveanalyst at next curve.
And in this episode, I have avery, very special guest, Misha
dollar of.
Erickson, he is the VP ofEmerging Technologies, joining
me on this special episode.
(00:31):
And we're going to talk aboutwhat's going to be hot in
emerging tech in 2025.
Misha, welcome.
How are you doing, my friend?
Oh, thanks,
Mischa Dohler (00:42):
buddy.
And just so everybody knows, wehave not scripted anything.
This is going to be improv, likereal semi musicians.
Yeah, I'm really looking forwardto it.
All good.
All good.
I'm sitting probably 500 milesnorth of you here in Silicon
Valley.
And yeah, good to be on yourshow.
Leonard Lee (00:59):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, you're long overdue.
We talked about doing this.
Like 3 years ago,
Mischa Dohler (01:08):
which is what it worked out because we haven't
planned for it.
We just said, let's do it.
I think yes, they just stoppedme the email and that's it
today.
When the call just do it,
Leonard Lee (01:17):
you know, yeah, so we will be doing it.
we are going to be, having acrazy discussion.
No doubt.
have no idea what we're going tobe talking about, but all I know
it's going to be good.
And before we get started,please remember to like share
and comment on this episode andsubscribe to the Rethink podcast
here on YouTube and, or onBuzzsprout to take us on the
(01:38):
road and on your jog, you know,all your.
Personal activities where youhave time to listen to us and
obviously on your favoritepodcast platform.
And so with that, wow, I am.
So, you know, you had me alittle bit concerned earlier on
when you didn't have your redjacket on.
I was going, you know, my
Mischa Dohler (02:01):
students, when they saw me that my red jacket,
my red shoes, they knew I was ina bad mood.
Something was wrong, but no, Ihave it on for you.
Of course.
Yeah,
Leonard Lee (02:09):
absolutely.
That would mean.
You were having a bad morning.
Yeah, crazy.
So, you know, I always lovechatting with you whenever we
have a moment, at the variousconferences and events where we
do bump into each other to havea chat, but then also, offsite,
just.
Having time together to exchangenotes or compare notes.
(02:33):
And so I want to take thisopportunity to see if we can
capture some of that, the magicof our conversations and talk
about the things that you thinkare going to be hot.
1st, let's do this.
Why don't you explain to theentire universe?
Who you are, what you do, andwhy we have so many great
conversations every single timethat we meet.
(02:55):
So the reason we have greatconversations
Mischa Dohler (02:57):
Is you just have to look at the background of
Lynyrd because it's full ofmusical instruments.
So we, I think we both want tobecome musicians and it somehow
didn't work out on the way, butI'm glad it didn't because I can
keep it as a hobby.
So originally I want to become aconcert pianist, actually ended
up in tech, in, the kind ofhistory, but still have been
(03:18):
composing, published a fewalbums on Spotify.
I did a big gig in LA in 2017 infront of 4, 000 people.
When we launched with my recordlabel, my fifth album, that was
my biggest thing on stage.
I need to compose my sixth one.
And back then I said I should doit with AI, never found the time
to do it.
And now I really regret thisactually, maybe I'll still do
(03:38):
it, but anyway, so I do music.
I love, I love also policy work.
I do a lot in policy.
I've worked with, I'm actuallyon the board of off com is our
UK regulators spectrum boardthere.
I'm on the FCC tuck as well.
Technical advisory committee ofone of them, sub subcommittee
there.
And, yeah, I love that.
And again, we also like to gethands on, we involved here with
(03:59):
the engineering and the, theexecutive teams on all things,
how to integrate our 5g.
gear into all the sexy things,which, Silicon Valley is
cooking.
And that's really, I have tosay, because I see things which
you will get as a consumer intwo, three years time.
So yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Leonard Lee (04:18):
Yeah.
And it's fascinating to get yourforesight into a lot of this
because, it is.
The next thing, right, that youare focusing on at, Erickson
from, quite frankly, acommercialization perspective,
It's not so far out that it'spart of, let's say, like, 6G
(04:39):
research, but, the way that atleast the way that our
conversations always turn out,it's like, okay, look, we have
this emerging technology.
We have this technology trend.
what is his potential toactually manifest itself into a
viable commercial application?
Right?
Yeah.
So that's the sense I get.
I know that you dabble and youhave all these technologies on
(04:59):
your radar.
No doubt.
6G included it's that ourconversations tend to have more
of a near term horizon andthat's why I always like getting
your takes because.
obviously, as you mentioned,you're working on things that,
most people don't know aboutbut, you have that sense of
(05:20):
where things are going.
So, what are those things thatare really exciting you in this
year?
This year is going to be apivotal year for a lot of
things, even based on myresearch and what I'm seeing.
And as you know, I cover a lotof stuff.
It's going to be a wacky year,but I wanted to give you an
opportunity to share with thenext curve audience.
What is it that's really piquedyour interest and that you think
(05:45):
is going to be the center ofconversation?
Mischa Dohler (05:46):
They're kind of the usual strongholds.
I'll bring you to that in amoment, but I'm gonna take you
on a little side road becauseyou asked me, what am I
passionate about?
the thing I'm very passionateabout is all the things I do in
health.
So it's something I started atKing's college in 2000, maybe
15, 14, 15, 16 in the, early 5gera in the, Rather than jumping
(06:09):
on building codes and, protocolsand standards, I actually went
out to society and asked them,Hey, in 2020, we'll probably
have a technology called 5g.
It will have these kinds ofcapabilities.
What would you do with that?
What could you do with this?
You cannot do today.
So I work with artists, massiveattack, which really eyeopening,
(06:29):
with transport companies, butalso with our hospital at Kings.
And, I.
Floated the idea of using 5genabled telesurgery, which back
then we got a lot of heat forbecause people didn't believe
that this was even possible.
Zoom forward to the year 24, 25.
And it turns out we're doingthis now.
So I have, I'm working with someof the most talented surgeons on
(06:52):
planet earth.
I want to highlight my buddyVipul Patel.
He sits in Orlando.
as part of Advent Health andhe's doing a laparoscopic
surgery, he has done nowprobably more remote surgeries
than anybody else on thisplanet.
And it's taking velocity.
And, of course the majority willbe done with fiber.
There's no doubt about this, but5g plays a very neat
(07:15):
complimentary technology for avariety of reasons.
The first one is, believe it ornot, as we started to roll this
out, a lot of the IT departmentssay, Hey, we've never seen that
robotic surgery equipment.
I don't want to run this on myreally vetted ethernet rights or
fiber.
So, therefore, separate line isneeded.
2nd argument.
This is that actually from acost point of view.
(07:38):
It's much cheaper to have, let'ssay, with Verizon, Timo, or at
and TA fixed wireless access SLAgreat enterprise slides.
rather than having a fiberpaying one and a half thousand,
2000, dollars a month, right?
Yeah.
So entry into that marks muchbetter of hospitals.
And then the third one is, a lotof hospitals don't have actually
good fiber.
(07:58):
And then it turns out, not allthe fiber, even in reasonably
connected hospitals is at thefive, six nines of reliability,
having a backup link, just incase the fiber goes out and it
has happened to all of us, thisis where 5g comes in, right?
So I'm working currently withour crew here in, from cradle
point and, the Ericsson forksand the wider industry with the
(08:22):
FDA, lots of surgeons, medicalsocieties, hospitals.
Healthcare providers, superexcited.
This is really what, keeps megoing at the moment.
Leonard Lee (08:30):
Yeah, you know what, and as you were describing
sort of this discovery thatyou've done as you've dug deep
into this use case is itsapplicability in a lot of
emergency scenarios.
You know, I keep thinking aboutthe wildfires that are occurring
in Los Angeles, what we saw withthe hurricanes in North
Carolina, Florida.
(08:51):
Where the infrastructure wentdown and there could be actually
essential need for wirelessconnectivity where you just
simply wire connectivity isdown.
Right?
And so how do you create anarchitecture, a distributed
computing architecture thatcould support, let's say on
site, surgical procedures, or atleast assistance, some kind of
(09:14):
capability that allows.
talent and expertise to bedeployed closer to where the
need is, because, it's physical,right?
It's a physical thing and havingto ship people out of, an
emergency.
Situation cost money, it's timeand to be able to bring that
(09:36):
expertise over the air into alocation where there is, there's
probably, you know, you mightnot be doing the surgery, but
there's assistive things that 5gcan bring in those types of
scenarios.
So I don't know.
It's just something that Poppedinto my head as you were you
know
Mischa Dohler (09:55):
You know, actually if you think about
specifically LA, you knowProbably a lot of the fiber pops
really but down and said thefiber even though it might be It
protected underground.
It's completely useless at themoment.
So in 5g naturally has alsosuffered because we got the
towers and all that.
But, you know, a company likeours, Ericsson, we do have these
emergency response containers.
(10:18):
We fly them in with.
Helicopters put down hours ontheir telco infrastructures in
there for first responders, forpeople there.
And I love your idea.
I've thought about this,actually, to actually piggyback,
let's say, medical care doesn'tneed necessarily need to be
really at this point, surgery,but, just.
Smart medical 5g connected care,internet connected happens to be
(10:40):
5g.
that could be a really bigthing.
Yeah.
Let me talk to Barry and my CEOis really very passionate about
this as well.
And I'm sure actually we didhelp the LA crisis, with things
like this.
So it's a good idea.
Love it.
Leonard Lee (10:52):
Well, you know, it kind of ties in with some of the
ambulatory things that we'rehearing about as well.
And that's being experimentedquite, or at least it's being
POC, if not, pilot in in the UK.
Right?
I know that there's a case studythere as well.
So, I'm glad that you, you teethings up with 5g, because I
think.
I'll tell you right now.
I think it's just beingdetrimentally ignored.
(11:13):
I think obviously there's a,another technology that's
getting a lot of attention and alot of funding.
I think 5G is going to beimportant.
Whether people, consider it ornot, and regardless of the
degree of quote, unquote,disappointment, we're at a point
where, 5g is at an inflectionpoint.
It really is.
and I think it's, detrimental toignore.
(11:37):
That state that the technologyand its deployments are, I'm
looking forward to the,resetting of that conversation.
And I like some of the practicalviews that you're bringing, even
though, you know, you're lookingat the future in a sense.
But it sounds like you've gonethrough some journeys here with
these technologies, use caseswhere you're starting to surface
(11:58):
what does value look like whenyou apply these technologies?
And usually it's not what youhypothetically thought at the
beginning, right?
You start off with something andyou go through the journey and
then.
Those value cases start tosurface up.
Mischa Dohler (12:12):
people ask me why you go for this difficult use
case.
My personal take on that, somereally smart people have tried
before me to bring thatsmartness into the healthcare
sector and somehow.
It didn't really always succeed.
I'm not saying it didn't at all,but we don't have a fully
instrumented, smart hospitalwith full connectivity AI today.
(12:32):
And I think one of the problemswas really that we kind of
trickled in different use cases,very dispersed.
And then we also did a bottom upapproach where we went by the I.
T.
Departments and they have adifferent visibility on that.
So I thought, let me go theother way.
Let me take the most difficultone because I thought if we
cracked This 1, the rest will beeasy peasy, then go via the
(12:52):
healthcare system and thesurgeons, because they put the
pressure on the it department.
So the digital transformationwould be much easier.
And so far it proved to be theright strategy.
Leonard Lee (13:04):
And so, you know, I want everyone who's listening
and watching to know that thisis the reason why he wears that
red jacket.
This gentleman is fire.
You know, he takes on the toughstuff, you know, you have to be
that bright beacon, showingeveryone no, I love it.
(13:24):
That's great.
So, 1 of the topic areas.
I really wanted to talk to youabout.
Was a verse, but really whereare we going with it?
If you're still arguing thatit's like the big thing, then we
have to have a conversation.
But look, this is the thing, youknow, me, man, I'm always fan of
(13:50):
the technology and engineeringthat people do the great
science.
And research that goes into, tomaking these technologies
possible.
I'm not a big fan of the hype,you know that, right?
I'm not for that.
But what I know that you're verycognizant of, because you do
this top down thing, which Ithink is a great approach, by
(14:10):
the way, I think like disruptionand real transformative use
cases come from, expensivestuff, stuff that's tough.
The easy stuff that tends tocome about a lot slower.
I mean, we saw that with iot,right?
It moves at a snail's pace, butI want to get your thoughts on
(14:32):
where did the metaverse hype?
Take things and where are welanding?
What's some of that residualstuff that the audience can
start to think about that canexhibit value?
Because I know you haven't givenup on it.
And if you did, I'd be reallydisappointed.
But let's talk about that for amoment.
(14:53):
Because honestly, I thinkthere's a lot that was always
there that has, you know,growing potential.
Mischa Dohler (14:59):
Yeah, I mean, we should probably, we should have
asked Mark Zuckerberg to be withus on the call here.
Right?
So next time, let me give him abuzz.
Oh, yeah, that'd be great.
I mean, it's been, it clearlyhas been an overhyped and
overloaded term.
it means very different thingsfor a lot of people.
from different genres.
the whole concept of thatspatial internet, I don't think
(15:24):
it's dead at all.
And, I transited, I transformed,I grew from a, ambassador, into
a true believer when I tried onthe metal Orion glasses.
I was one of the few lucky oneswho could do that.
And it has really blown my mind.
So I don't want to.
Give advertisement credit to anyspecific company.
(15:45):
But I've seen the first timeever I have seen a sleek device
sexy enough for me to walkaround with it for a sustained
period with great optical, andgeneral technical capabilities.
Right?
So we're getting there.
So the engineers, you give thema challenge.
And they somehow managed tocrack that.
the jury is still open if peoplewill actually adopt that.
(16:08):
I personally always, try tobelieve that history loves to
repeat itself.
And we had one gadget which grewlike, mad, which is the
smartphone, right.
I stopped with the iPhone, etcetera.
So we have that data starting2008.
We got a super exponentialgrowth there until now it's kind
of, flattening off, but it'sbeen a stellar story.
And then we have the, let's saythe smart watch.
(16:30):
I like to use this as a lowerbound, which is kind of a useful
device, but not everybody's cupof tea because I don't wear it
because it bothers me withplaying the piano.
So I'm not a smart watch guy atall, but you know, penetration
has a 30 percent were muchslower.
So therefore, we could imaginethat AR could be anything
between these two and eitherscenario is a good scenario for
(16:52):
us, a community use cases.
Listen, I always like to listento myself when I wear them the
whole day and play games.
I'm out of this age.
I've just gone over 50.
So it's downhill here from, but,you know,
Leonard Lee (17:08):
are you making fun of me?
Come on, man.
It's not that bad.
It's not that great, but it'snot
Mischa Dohler (17:15):
All right.
I love you too, man.
Anyway, stuff like navigation,having a call with your friend,
et cetera.
Or engaging, actually, what Ithink will be the even bigger
use case with the, LLM, with asmart agent, very interesting.
And Meta actually, you know, I'mnot sure they truly believe this
will really exponentiallyexpand.
(17:35):
So they've floated this idea andhas been announced publicly, to
actually have earbuds with alittle camera, So, and I can
imagine people wear this evenmore because it's not so
intrusive.
You have it all with you, thecameras is capturing like a 360.
It understands, the spatialcontext advises you, tells you
things.
Hey, you know, the future isstill wide open, but we're
getting there.
(17:56):
It's crucial.
Spatial compute, whatever youcall it, is not dead.
Leonard Lee (18:00):
All right, there, there you have it.
Okay.
So do I give my take?
Do I have no, I think you're,you're tuning into a number of
really good things.
I think 1 of the caveats itboils down to silicon.
Are we there with thesemiconductor technology?
And, can we get the power powerefficiency?
(18:20):
And, the density to supportthese form factors.
And, 1 of the things I'venoticed is that a lot of these
devices are becoming actually,smartphone reliant.
They're not standalone devices.
And I think, with the Orion, 1of the things that they didn't
make quite clear, and manypeople didn't talk about is that
(18:41):
you do have that puck.
Right.
And so, oddly, I like that youbrought up the smartphone and
how it went universal, right?
It's a universal device and itseems like it still continues to
have a role.
And I think it's 1 of thereasons why it's not a, not
(19:03):
something that to be ignored theinnovation that's happening is
in how it's becomingincreasingly multifunctional,
but it.
It's expressing itself in veryboring ways that are actually
very transformative or enablingother transformative, let's say,
peripherals like smart glasses.
Because I've tried.
I was at CES.
(19:24):
I tried a bunch there.
Getting better.
I have to say in terms of, anyof these XR experiences,
division pro by far destroyseverybody.
they're so far ahead.
It's not even funny, but, Ithink in terms of the AR stuff.
no, and the only reason why Isay this is because I just see
(19:46):
so many haters out there talkingnonsense about the device that
they never even tried, that Ithink we'll get there.
I think we're going to have tostart with simpler and that's
what seems to be gettingtraction like metas Ray ban
classes, but the use case and alot of people talk about.
(20:07):
Is the camera, even though theywanna put a lot of attention to
the ar.
When I talk to folks who, usethat device, they talk about the
the camera, taking videos andstuff, and having that first
person view, one of the things Ihave talked about for quite some
time, the immersive media areasis probably gonna be a pretty
(20:28):
hot thing.
And even with some of thesesmart glasses, one of the key
use cases when I'm on a plane.
I can either do productivity orI can watch a movie on a
gigantic screen, as silly andtrivial as that sounds,
especially with these planes.
He's getting small and smaller.
If you're not flying first classlike you, it's something that I
think has growing.
Mischa Dohler (20:51):
but, you know, I'm with you on this actually,
and we will probably see as we,have seen as big as with a
smartwatch, right?
So the power users.
So, and that's what we areinterested from an Ericsson
point of view, what does itmean?
And typically, you know, Pareto,Zipf's law kick in at some
point.
So we know that, from all thepopulation using the device,
about 20 percent will be powerusers.
(21:12):
And the question now is how muchpower is power, right?
Is it, will that be using thatfor 24 hours, 12 hours Three
hours, because that really willinfluence the way how we need to
dimension the uplink, and thedownlink and the uplink.
If you think about it, you havethese glasses on and they're
actually interestingly notstreaming video at 60 FPS frames
per seconds.
They take, maybe once persecond, five.
(21:32):
Per second.
So if you work at, let's sayfive, 500 per second, they need
a much lower resolution.
Interesting because the LLMs getaway with recognizing objects
at, 480, P resolution, which isreally low.
So you get something like 200kilobits per second uplink
roughly.
but still, still, you have.
20 percent of population's powerusers, doing this for, let's say
(21:53):
four hours, Verizon, Timo andAT& T need to start, seriously
considering upgrades to get, weneed more stuff, we need more
upgrades and all that.
So for us as an industry, Ithink it's an exciting time.
but we still have uncertaintyon, how many users will really
pick those up.
Leonard Lee (22:07):
And then how quickly, I think also the
architecture.
Will evolve, and then to yourpoint how does the data flow,
but you're making a reallyinteresting point about the, AI
vision that, or, what folks callcomputer vision that's different
from human vision.
Right?
It doesn't have to be you know,8k, you know what I'm saying?
(22:31):
Experience for, an AIapplication, right?
Much lower res.
It's an important point thatyou're making there
Mischa Dohler (22:40):
you can test it out yourself.
Just take an image downsize itto whatever resolution and just
try different ones and throw itinto an LLM and ask him, what do
you see?
And you'll be surprised.
They're pretty good at this.
So therefore just gettingcontextual insights about your,
spatial environment with afairly low frame rate or
resolution is okay.
Different thing is if you havea, an influence, I dunno, it was
(23:02):
like you, actually giving eightK or 4K videos.
But even then if you listen toNVIDIA's announcement at cs,
they announced that Super re rels I think it's called, or LSA,
I can't remember.
you could perfectly four 80 and78, whatever.
And then you have AI basically,upscale that for your viewers to
then digest.
(23:23):
Yeah.
ELSS.
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (23:24):
That's upscaling.
Yeah, there's a lot oftechnologies out there that you
have to think about as these.
Systems evolve.
You mentioned Nvidia, youmentioned AI.
So inevitably, I have to pickyour brain up.
What is this guy thinking aboutwhen it comes to all this
generative AI goodness?
I mean, what's your view on it?
(23:45):
And, in an overarching way.
Not specific to LLMs and thingslike that.
Mischa Dohler (23:51):
I mean, specifically NVIDIA and Jensen,
I mean, the guy is just gettingevery wave right.
I mean, look at CS, he basicallywent, you know, everybody now is
thinking enterprise.
He announced a consumer product.
I tried to buy it.
It was sold out in twomilliseconds, you know.
And it's basically a superpowerful, computer.
You can have at home.
(24:11):
The only downside is the memoryis actually not good enough to
run.
Let's say the larger models likethe deep sea or any of the other
stuff, but they will probablyaddress that over time.
So he goes from wave to wave andI wouldn't be surprised if the
GTC will announce, another bigenterprise thing, which will
blow everybody out of theirmind.
Because currently, as we know,other players like AWS and
(24:33):
Google can announce their chipfabric.
He's somehow always ahead ofthis.
And I'm not surprised becausethe way how that work is, I
think, very market driven,they're not no five year
PowerPoint planning exercises.
So they're much more nimble toaddress the market.
So I don't work for Nvidia, butI could imagine inside it's a
little bit more chaotic thanother companies, they get stuff
(24:54):
done and, I think they knewalready that the training market
at some point.
We'll go down.
It's not only because the costper token goes down for in
appearance and for training, butalso we get much more nimble
with the training.
We have good foundationalmodels.
Now is a lot, just fine tuning,but also new models are being
announced, which do not requirethe tokenized approach.
(25:16):
So, M.
I.
T.
Stanford, uh, and meta haveannounced non token based
models.
So the jury's Still out, whichway this sentient AI really will
go.
And he knows though, thatinference will always require
compute no matter what.
And he will be a winner.
Yes or yes.
So either it's enterprisesneeding a lot of compute for
(25:37):
inference and training or and,or it will be people doing a lot
of inference, no matter what weneed, probably GPUs or what type
of fabric to really grow.
So here you go.
Leonard Lee (25:46):
No, okay.
All right.
Wow.
the guy.
And I mean, Jensen, and hisjacket, you know, you guys have
something in common that's likepretty We do.
Mischa Dohler (25:54):
I took you, it took you a half an hour to
realize, was he you first orhim?
I was first.
No doubt.
I've been wearing, not thisjacket, but you know, I've been
going like this for 20 years, soYeah.
So he copied you basically?
We did, yeah.
Control V straight up.
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (26:10):
Well, you know what was weird?
I was on an analyst call and Iwas talk, you know, I, pitched a
question to him and he noticedmy mac and.
I told him, look, I'll give youmy Mac if you give me one of
your jackets.
And so, yeah, I'm still waitingfor the jacket.
So, hey, you know, NVIDIA ARteam, the, the, the offer is
still out there.
Mischa Dohler (26:32):
My friend just posted me a mock.
Leonard Lee (26:36):
Well, it looks like he has a new wardrobe based on
what he was wearing on.
Uh, yeah,
Mischa Dohler (26:42):
that's already not my thing.
So now he's really rock starwell,, I'm not, I'm maybe in 10
years time.
I will, I will change my outfitfor the time being.
Yeah, I mean, what's your take?
Nvidia and, competition isheating up.
New chips are being announced.
And, yeah, I know every timethey announce something, it
feels like nobody can catch upwith them.
And then somebody catches up, goslightly above, and then they do
a new announcement.
(27:03):
What's your view?
You're really in the midst.
Oh,
Leonard Lee (27:05):
I think you mentioned deep seek, 1 way or
another, they're going to impactthe economics of everything and
that'll be profound, especially.
If what they're claiming interms of the training costs are
irregardless of all the minutiaethat people are trying to.
you know, get into anddetermining how they achieved
(27:26):
and if they achieved what theydid, a bottom line is, there's
costs, but then there's priceand if the pricing that they put
out on the market, just changesthe economics, everything.
Then I think that's what we haveto really look at now, I think
is a great opportunity for thefolks who want to use,
(27:47):
generative AI functions andfeatures and capabilities and
embed them into theirapplications.
those are going to be thebeneficiaries, but, I think
folks still need to be cognizantof the limitation of the
technology.
It's still very limited, eventhough we see these benchmarks
that show, oh, you know, they'rereally great.
you have to continually considerthem with the bigger picture of.
(28:11):
Okay, what are you using thisfor?
Does it align with what thetechnology does?
Right?
And there is definitely a valuethat is going to be extracted.
Out of this, and I think that'sthe opportunity you start to
look at, because once theeconomics change, the ROI at the
application level becomesdifferent, right?
(28:32):
Because a lot of the POCs thatwe hear in enterprises, yeah,
you know, here's some benefit,but it's friggin too expensive.
Right?
Yeah.
Changes.
Then we'll see adoption, butit's going to down that
upstream.
And what I mean, towardsSilicon, it's going to impact
there.
So it could very well be, theevent that changes everything
(28:55):
and will force all of us tothink in a different way about
this stuff.
Mischa Dohler (28:59):
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (29:00):
Yeah.
Mischa Dohler (29:01):
It's maybe a good time.
You know, I always talk about.
Uh, the AA being a real gamechanger for telecoms, AA
standing, for the AAA battery toeject new energy.
And one, the first A stands for,ai, the second for API, and the
second and third one for ar.
So I haven't changed my pitch onthis one.
I still believe AAA is the wayto go for our telco industry.
(29:22):
We talked about ar., I haven'ttalked about API yet, but I
strongly believe that we havereally managed Ericsson
specifically, you know, with themassive investment into
Warnoche, even though we had tounderwrite quite a bit of this
now, but at least people startedto believe.
So the whole industry now thinksplatform for the 1st time, truly
for the 1st time.
So I'm a big believer that AIreally interesting.
(29:42):
I would like to highlight maybethe work of.
Two people.
I really admire.
One is my buddy, Demis Hassabis,who is from Google DeepMind.
He very quietly, rather thanbeing out there and telling
everybody how great they are interms of AGI for consumers,
they're actually doing realthings for society, right?
He just published the other day,an article saying that their
(30:04):
alpha fold has done the researchwork of 10, 000 PhDs, over three
to five years time, they'vediscovered new materials, which,
would have taken us another 500years to come up with, and
they've just done it like thiswith GPU, but it's incredible.
You know, that goes intomedicine, real game changes.
(30:25):
And that brings me To my anotherperson, I really adore Stanford
professor, um, Eric Brimstone,who is, an economist who joined
Stanford four or five years ago.
I think he will get, Demis got aNobel prize in, I think it was
physics right in the end of theday.
I think, Eric will get it ineconomics, I believe.
So he worked a lot on neweconomic models.
(30:46):
And he's arguing very hard islike, if we continue on that,
Yeah, the dystopian path ofbuilding AI, which is trying to
do what we do.
We are just undermining themiddle class.
And then the economic model ofmodern society will collapse
because the value of money hasno sense anymore.
Right.
and he argues we should ratherfocus AI to do stuff we cannot
(31:09):
do.
He draws always these threeareas, ABC, what humans can do,
be a little thing.
What we try.
AI to replicate, and then C,which is basically the largest
blank canvas, where really weshould focus AI on and AGI to do
things we cannot do.
We would never be able to doeven with a million years of
(31:30):
evolution.
So, and that is something Iwould like us to focus more on
and less off some Altman's anddeep seek and all that, if it
makes sense.
Leonard Lee (31:39):
Agree with you, but that's a tough study.
I think it's going to take folkslike you and hopefully, me and
others to, support thatnarrative, which I think can,
suffer from distraction quite.
Significantly, and that's 1 ofthe reasons why I try to ground
the conversation around as muchas possible, because if we
(32:01):
don't, then we get focused onthings that are not necessarily,
substantial, and maybe even onthe realm of delusional then, we
also provide opportunities forthe technology to be misused.
And I think that's one of thebig problems right now okay.
So you asked me, what am Iexpecting out of this year?
(32:22):
The other thing is, I'mexpecting it for it to be used
tremendously in enabling thedark economy.
So, being used in cyber attack,cyber crime, and, we're going to
see a proliferation of deepfakes.
The cyber security industry andthe emerging cyber trust
industry is going to number 1 bechallenged, but, in order for,
(32:46):
economies to survive, that trustinfrastructure needs to be built
in and that's going to, start tobecome an increasingly important
topic for governments.
At a government level, becauseif we can't instill trust in
commerce trade and, economy,then all the stuff kind of falls
apart.
And 1 of the things that alwayssticks in my mind.
(33:08):
And for anyone who goes to anyof the Microsoft, events, watch
the cyber security segment.
This cyber criminal economy, orI think they call it the anti
economy or something like thatis the fastest growing economy
in the world.
It is much higher than the U SChina, India, any of these mega
(33:28):
economies.
Wow, bigger and it's 3rd.
It went from 8 trillion.
I don't know how to calculatethis, but, for the sake of
discussion, a spouse for amoment, these numbers, 8
trillion to 9.
2 trillion.
You do the math that's doubledigit growth.
(33:51):
I think if we give those numbersany credence, that's going to
drive, an urgency in reducingthe risk and threat that is,
associated with that economy.
And, to your point, if we can'tfind the good in AI, people are
going to use it to create thealternative economy so that they
(34:11):
can feed themselves.
Mischa Dohler (34:13):
Yeah, I know.
It's great point.
I didn't know these stats.
This is really scary, and, um, Iwas just thinking, you know, our
telco industry could really playa strong role because we, we are
an industry who actually knowswhere things happen.
So, if somebody was to, let'ssay, do a deep fake of you with
your voice and your etcetera andtry to get into your bank
account or convince your wife todo certain things, right?
So we would know.
(34:34):
Where this has happened, whetherthis is plausible, and in fact,
one of the bondage, we acquiredthis API comes to bondage.
One of the APIs is offering thistoday.
So if you combine these 2 thingstogether, we could be a
trustworthy.
So it's great.
Ideally.
No, you know what?
Oh, my God.
Leonard Lee (34:50):
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I mean, what a great segue intothe API.
I think this is absolutely.
An important thing, because, youknow, I wrote a piece on, the
network APIs and what'shappening with the Duna, what
its role is.
Almost 7 years ago, did a studyfor off calm that you're a chair
(35:12):
of, you know, that every decadethey do the.
The technology futures, right?
Well, we want that work, to helpoff comms research team, figure
out, in the five to 10 yearhorizon from now, what are the
technologies and trends that weneed to look for?
One of the three trends that wetalked about was the emergence
(35:36):
of the trust infrastructure,right?
And so if you think about Whatthe Vonage fraud prevention
solution set, which is enabledby network APIs, right?
There's also comms APIs there aswell, but that actually does
(35:56):
dovetails nicely into this idea.
But the Duna exchange, I call itan exchange.
It provides that, global.
Footprint and framework for thattrust to happen.
And one of the things I cited inmy piece was that one of the
important things about a Dunais, is going to go through the
(36:17):
hard work of, defining andscaling out trust.
cause when people think aboutAPIs, they just think, Oh, from
a technical perspective, Iconnect this, this, and then, we
can somehow get.
frigging 5G connectivity throughthese APIs are some weird thing,
right?
But that's not even the half ofit.
(36:39):
The real reason why you guyshave Aduna and you're working
with operators to do this is to,is literally, whether or not you
guys know it or not, is tocreate a trust framework so that
these APIs can be used globallyin a trusted way.
But it's interesting that one ofthose functions, the first use
cases, is a trust use case.
(37:00):
It's a trust application, youknow,
Mischa Dohler (37:03):
yeah, you're spot on.
I mean, I'm listening withfascination.
I mean, absolutely.
Right.
And you know, what betterindustry or what better player
to leverage on that trust carthan us, right?
Because we do have trustedrelationships with all the
operators around the world.
So therefore there is a bignarrative there.
(37:25):
and then developers will starttrusting that as well.
And it's interesting, you can'thave your application, do one
day, not do it, not work oneanother day.
So therefore, I think that'swhat I do and I will do is,
really make sure all these APIswork 24 seven with an SLA of,
99, five nines, whatever,what's.
The requirement of the industry.
So whoever builds application ontop, no, they can really build a
(37:48):
proper business case on top, andthen make whatever needs to be
made.
So, yeah, I, you're absolutelyright.
That trust element never struckme.
So clearly until you mentionedthat good point.
Leonard Lee (37:58):
Without it, none of this happens and I don't mean
just trust in terms of thereliability or trust of the.
system, but trust in, do youknow who is consuming the, the
service, via the APIs and,actually the more, so if you
read the piece, obviously youdidn't read my piece.
I'll send it to you later.
(38:19):
Yeah, I will read,
Mischa Dohler (38:21):
of course, I'll, I always read your
Leonard Lee (38:22):
piece when I see them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not just that there's theregulatory bit.
When we look at the geopoliticallandscape and where things are
going, where things are becomingmore divided and bifurcated
interests are becoming moreisolated and alienating, that
brokering of trust and,reduction of the friction.
(38:43):
Of being able to trust people atis the main function.
If you don't have that.
doing that, individually, is atremendous cost.
So you kill the entireopportunity that you're looking
for.
But if you can make that,fabric, a trust fabric, right?
For this bigger picture, it'sthat grease that makes the wheel
(39:08):
turn right?
That flywheel everyone talksabout.
And so if you read my piece,that's why I thought this is an
essential thing.
And it was an interesting.
evolution of what you guys aredoing with GMP, which I wrote
about a long time ago, as wellas, the rationale around,
buying, Yeah.
Yeah.
So, surprising was morethoughtful than I thought.
(39:31):
Um, it's just that.
I don't comment on price, but,the obvious happened.
But the thing is that if youlook at the intent and the
thinking around.
Where are you guys and theindustry was at the time?
Mischa Dohler (39:49):
Yes, already at the time of purchase.
I think a lot of my colleagues,we're really polarized, right?
So somehow this ground is ofauthority as a complete
overkill, you know I was one ofthe folks who had a deep
admiration for very actually todo that simply because you know
I built companies and I knowthat sometimes you really need
to do a Bold move, to get thingsmoving.
(40:10):
And it's very expensive tochange the demand side of an
industry, whether that'sconsumer or B2B, when you put 6
billion on the table, theindustry will listen.
And, it's the price we paid forchanging the industry.
It's not necessarily the pricewe paid for getting money back
through the APIs.
Right.
So that platform transformation,which we as a telecom industry
(40:32):
have talked about since 4G hasnow finally happened because of
this.
So, I thought super bold.
I would have done it again andagain.
Maybe I would have negotiated alittle more on the price, and
I'm sure the leadership team hasdone that.
It's where we are, but now theindustry takes the right way.
I'm hopeful.
Leonard Lee (40:50):
Yeah, so, a lot of exciting stuff.
We can go on forever.
but we're gonna have to cut thisoff.
Otherwise we will go on forever.
Uh, this is awesome.
we should do this again andagain to our audience because,
there are some folks who are outthere that they want things
spoon fed to them.
this wasn't for spoon feedingmission.
(41:12):
I, yeah, We decided we're goingto get together this morning and
hit the record button.
That's it.
hopefully you found some insightand perspectives that were
helpful.
maybe, enlightening.
1 things for certain, I alwayshave a great time chatting with
you.
I'm glad we were able to capturea little bit of that lightning
(41:33):
in the bottle for our audiencehere.
tell our audience how theyshould get in touch with you.
Mischa Dohler (41:40):
All right.
So, I mean, the easiest thingwould be probably, just to drop
you a message and then youcontact me.
Now, I got it back to you.
Just, just, yeah, connect onLinkedIn.
you know, drop me an email.
My email is simple as misha.
dollard.
com and, happy to discussfurther and, you know, if you
have any interesting thought, itwould be good, to get on a call
(42:00):
with Leonard, actually the threeof us, the four of us, whatever
the five of us, you know, Tokind of have a intellectual
firepower, a bust on whatever wewant to talk about.
So it's always great to talk toyou later.
I just love it.
I remember in London, he has arainy London day.
I think last year where we just,earlier with an early morning,
but it's nobody that you and mecrunching one hardcore topic off
(42:24):
another.
Uh, it's just such so analog,right?
I think I called it an analogmorning.
It's just beautiful.
So that's little than me.
So fantastic.
Thanks for having me on theshow, buddy.
Hopefully, you know, we canrepeat that one another day.
Leonard Lee (42:36):
Oh, yeah, of course, hopefully it won't take
three years hopefully we'll havea lot of folks who you know took
a lot from this, Conversation.
I know I did it's always greatto have a chat with you And by
the way, he's a great speakerHis daughter is a friggin
amazing musician.
and just beautiful voice.
wonderful artists, such atalented family.
(42:59):
And he has the best jackets andthe best shoes.
I did see your shoes earlierwhen you pointed your laptop
down.
So, you know, Yes, you, youdelivered on the fashion front.
thanks everyone for tuning in,please subscribe to our podcast,
which will be featured on thenext curve, YouTube channel,
check out the audio version onbuzz sprout, or find us on your
(43:22):
favorite podcast platform.
Also subscribe to the next curveresearch portal at www.
next curve.
com for.
The tech and industry insightsthat matter.
And with that, adios, we'll seeyou.
Thank you so much,
Mischa Dohler (43:37):
Misha.
Fantastic.
Adios.
Hasta la proxima.
Thank you, my friend.
Cheers.
Bye.
Next curve.
Leonard Lee (00:09):
Hey everyone.
Welcome to next curves.
Rethink podcast.
I'm Leonard Lee, executiveanalyst at next curve.
And in this episode, I have avery, very special guest, Misha
dollar of.
Erickson, he is the VP ofEmerging Technologies, joining
me on this special episode.
(00:31):
And we're going to talk aboutwhat's going to be hot in
emerging tech in 2025.
Misha, welcome.
How are you doing, my friend?
Oh, thanks,
Mischa Dohler (00:42):
buddy.
And just so everybody knows, wehave not scripted anything.
This is going to be improv, likereal semi musicians.
Yeah, I'm really looking forwardto it.
All good.
All good.
I'm sitting probably 500 milesnorth of you here in Silicon
Valley.
And yeah, good to be on yourshow.
Leonard Lee (00:59):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, you're long overdue.
We talked about doing this.
Like 3 years ago,
Mischa Dohler (01:08):
which is what it worked out because we haven't
planned for it.
We just said, let's do it.
I think yes, they just stoppedme the email and that's it
today.
When the call just do it,
Leonard Lee (01:17):
you know, yeah, so we will be doing it.
we are going to be, having acrazy discussion.
No doubt.
have no idea what we're going tobe talking about, but all I know
it's going to be good.
And before we get started,please remember to like share
and comment on this episode andsubscribe to the Rethink podcast
here on YouTube and, or onBuzzsprout to take us on the
(01:38):
road and on your jog, you know,all your.
Personal activities where youhave time to listen to us and
obviously on your favoritepodcast platform.
And so with that, wow, I am.
So, you know, you had me alittle bit concerned earlier on
when you didn't have your redjacket on.
I was going, you know, my
Mischa Dohler (02:01):
students, when they saw me that my red jacket,
my red shoes, they knew I was ina bad mood.
Something was wrong, but no, Ihave it on for you.
Of course.
Yeah,
Leonard Lee (02:09):
absolutely.
That would mean.
You were having a bad morning.
Yeah, crazy.
So, you know, I always lovechatting with you whenever we
have a moment, at the variousconferences and events where we
do bump into each other to havea chat, but then also, offsite,
just.
Having time together to exchangenotes or compare notes.
(02:33):
And so I want to take thisopportunity to see if we can
capture some of that, the magicof our conversations and talk
about the things that you thinkare going to be hot.
1st, let's do this.
Why don't you explain to theentire universe?
Who you are, what you do, andwhy we have so many great
conversations every single timethat we meet.
(02:55):
So the reason we have greatconversations
Mischa Dohler (02:57):
Is you just have to look at the background of
Lynyrd because it's full ofmusical instruments.
So we, I think we both want tobecome musicians and it somehow
didn't work out on the way, butI'm glad it didn't because I can
keep it as a hobby.
So originally I want to become aconcert pianist, actually ended
up in tech, in, the kind ofhistory, but still have been
(03:18):
composing, published a fewalbums on Spotify.
I did a big gig in LA in 2017 infront of 4, 000 people.
When we launched with my recordlabel, my fifth album, that was
my biggest thing on stage.
I need to compose my sixth one.
And back then I said I should doit with AI, never found the time
to do it.
And now I really regret thisactually, maybe I'll still do
(03:38):
it, but anyway, so I do music.
I love, I love also policy work.
I do a lot in policy.
I've worked with, I'm actuallyon the board of off com is our
UK regulators spectrum boardthere.
I'm on the FCC tuck as well.
Technical advisory committee ofone of them, sub subcommittee
there.
And, yeah, I love that.
And again, we also like to gethands on, we involved here with
(03:59):
the engineering and the, theexecutive teams on all things,
how to integrate our 5g.
gear into all the sexy things,which, Silicon Valley is
cooking.
And that's really, I have tosay, because I see things which
you will get as a consumer intwo, three years time.
So yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Leonard Lee (04:18):
Yeah.
And it's fascinating to get yourforesight into a lot of this
because, it is.
The next thing, right, that youare focusing on at, Erickson
from, quite frankly, acommercialization perspective,
It's not so far out that it'spart of, let's say, like, 6G
(04:39):
research, but, the way that atleast the way that our
conversations always turn out,it's like, okay, look, we have
this emerging technology.
We have this technology trend.
what is his potential toactually manifest itself into a
viable commercial application?
Right?
Yeah.
So that's the sense I get.
I know that you dabble and youhave all these technologies on
(04:59):
your radar.
No doubt.
6G included it's that ourconversations tend to have more
of a near term horizon andthat's why I always like getting
your takes because.
obviously, as you mentioned,you're working on things that,
most people don't know aboutbut, you have that sense of
(05:20):
where things are going.
So, what are those things thatare really exciting you in this
year?
This year is going to be apivotal year for a lot of
things, even based on myresearch and what I'm seeing.
And as you know, I cover a lotof stuff.
It's going to be a wacky year,but I wanted to give you an
opportunity to share with thenext curve audience.
What is it that's really piquedyour interest and that you think
(05:45):
is going to be the center ofconversation?
Mischa Dohler (05:46):
They're kind of the usual strongholds.
I'll bring you to that in amoment, but I'm gonna take you
on a little side road becauseyou asked me, what am I
passionate about?
the thing I'm very passionateabout is all the things I do in
health.
So it's something I started atKing's college in 2000, maybe
15, 14, 15, 16 in the, early 5gera in the, Rather than jumping
(06:09):
on building codes and, protocolsand standards, I actually went
out to society and asked them,Hey, in 2020, we'll probably
have a technology called 5g.
It will have these kinds ofcapabilities.
What would you do with that?
What could you do with this?
You cannot do today.
So I work with artists, massiveattack, which really eyeopening,
(06:29):
with transport companies, butalso with our hospital at Kings.
And, I.
Floated the idea of using 5genabled telesurgery, which back
then we got a lot of heat forbecause people didn't believe
that this was even possible.
Zoom forward to the year 24, 25.
And it turns out we're doingthis now.
So I have, I'm working with someof the most talented surgeons on
(06:52):
planet earth.
I want to highlight my buddyVipul Patel.
He sits in Orlando.
as part of Advent Health andhe's doing a laparoscopic
surgery, he has done nowprobably more remote surgeries
than anybody else on thisplanet.
And it's taking velocity.
And, of course the majority willbe done with fiber.
There's no doubt about this, but5g plays a very neat
(07:15):
complimentary technology for avariety of reasons.
The first one is, believe it ornot, as we started to roll this
out, a lot of the IT departmentssay, Hey, we've never seen that
robotic surgery equipment.
I don't want to run this on myreally vetted ethernet rights or
fiber.
So, therefore, separate line isneeded.
2nd argument.
This is that actually from acost point of view.
(07:38):
It's much cheaper to have, let'ssay, with Verizon, Timo, or at
and TA fixed wireless access SLAgreat enterprise slides.
rather than having a fiberpaying one and a half thousand,
2000, dollars a month, right?
Yeah.
So entry into that marks muchbetter of hospitals.
And then the third one is, a lotof hospitals don't have actually
good fiber.
(07:58):
And then it turns out, not allthe fiber, even in reasonably
connected hospitals is at thefive, six nines of reliability,
having a backup link, just incase the fiber goes out and it
has happened to all of us, thisis where 5g comes in, right?
So I'm working currently withour crew here in, from cradle
point and, the Ericsson forksand the wider industry with the
(08:22):
FDA, lots of surgeons, medicalsocieties, hospitals.
Healthcare providers, superexcited.
This is really what, keeps megoing at the moment.
Leonard Lee (08:30):
Yeah, you know what, and as you were describing
sort of this discovery thatyou've done as you've dug deep
into this use case is itsapplicability in a lot of
emergency scenarios.
You know, I keep thinking aboutthe wildfires that are occurring
in Los Angeles, what we saw withthe hurricanes in North
Carolina, Florida.
(08:51):
Where the infrastructure wentdown and there could be actually
essential need for wirelessconnectivity where you just
simply wire connectivity isdown.
Right?
And so how do you create anarchitecture, a distributed
computing architecture thatcould support, let's say on
site, surgical procedures, or atleast assistance, some kind of
(09:14):
capability that allows.
talent and expertise to bedeployed closer to where the
need is, because, it's physical,right?
It's a physical thing and havingto ship people out of, an
emergency.
Situation cost money, it's timeand to be able to bring that
(09:36):
expertise over the air into alocation where there is, there's
probably, you know, you mightnot be doing the surgery, but
there's assistive things that 5gcan bring in those types of
scenarios.
So I don't know.
It's just something that Poppedinto my head as you were you
know
Mischa Dohler (09:55):
You know, actually if you think about
specifically LA, you knowProbably a lot of the fiber pops
really but down and said thefiber even though it might be It
protected underground.
It's completely useless at themoment.
So in 5g naturally has alsosuffered because we got the
towers and all that.
But, you know, a company likeours, Ericsson, we do have these
emergency response containers.
(10:18):
We fly them in with.
Helicopters put down hours ontheir telco infrastructures in
there for first responders, forpeople there.
And I love your idea.
I've thought about this,actually, to actually piggyback,
let's say, medical care doesn'tneed necessarily need to be
really at this point, surgery,but, just.
Smart medical 5g connected care,internet connected happens to be
(10:40):
5g.
that could be a really bigthing.
Yeah.
Let me talk to Barry and my CEOis really very passionate about
this as well.
And I'm sure actually we didhelp the LA crisis, with things
like this.
So it's a good idea.
Love it.
Leonard Lee (10:52):
Well, you know, it kind of ties in with some of the
ambulatory things that we'rehearing about as well.
And that's being experimentedquite, or at least it's being
POC, if not, pilot in in the UK.
Right?
I know that there's a case studythere as well.
So, I'm glad that you, you teethings up with 5g, because I
think.
I'll tell you right now.
I think it's just beingdetrimentally ignored.
(11:13):
I think obviously there's a,another technology that's
getting a lot of attention and alot of funding.
I think 5G is going to beimportant.
Whether people, consider it ornot, and regardless of the
degree of quote, unquote,disappointment, we're at a point
where, 5g is at an inflectionpoint.
It really is.
and I think it's, detrimental toignore.
(11:37):
That state that the technologyand its deployments are, I'm
looking forward to the,resetting of that conversation.
And I like some of the practicalviews that you're bringing, even
though, you know, you're lookingat the future in a sense.
But it sounds like you've gonethrough some journeys here with
these technologies, use caseswhere you're starting to surface
(11:58):
what does value look like whenyou apply these technologies?
And usually it's not what youhypothetically thought at the
beginning, right?
You start off with something andyou go through the journey and
then.
Those value cases start tosurface up.
Mischa Dohler (12:12):
people ask me why you go for this difficult use
case.
My personal take on that, somereally smart people have tried
before me to bring thatsmartness into the healthcare
sector and somehow.
It didn't really always succeed.
I'm not saying it didn't at all,but we don't have a fully
instrumented, smart hospitalwith full connectivity AI today.
(12:32):
And I think one of the problemswas really that we kind of
trickled in different use cases,very dispersed.
And then we also did a bottom upapproach where we went by the I.
T.
Departments and they have adifferent visibility on that.
So I thought, let me go theother way.
Let me take the most difficultone because I thought if we
cracked This 1, the rest will beeasy peasy, then go via the
(12:52):
healthcare system and thesurgeons, because they put the
pressure on the it department.
So the digital transformationwould be much easier.
And so far it proved to be theright strategy.
Leonard Lee (13:04):
And so, you know, I want everyone who's listening
and watching to know that thisis the reason why he wears that
red jacket.
This gentleman is fire.
You know, he takes on the toughstuff, you know, you have to be
that bright beacon, showingeveryone no, I love it.
(13:24):
That's great.
So, 1 of the topic areas.
I really wanted to talk to youabout.
Was a verse, but really whereare we going with it?
If you're still arguing thatit's like the big thing, then we
have to have a conversation.
But look, this is the thing, youknow, me, man, I'm always fan of
(13:50):
the technology and engineeringthat people do the great
science.
And research that goes into, tomaking these technologies
possible.
I'm not a big fan of the hype,you know that, right?
I'm not for that.
But what I know that you're verycognizant of, because you do
this top down thing, which Ithink is a great approach, by
(14:10):
the way, I think like disruptionand real transformative use
cases come from, expensivestuff, stuff that's tough.
The easy stuff that tends tocome about a lot slower.
I mean, we saw that with iot,right?
It moves at a snail's pace, butI want to get your thoughts on
(14:32):
where did the metaverse hype?
Take things and where are welanding?
What's some of that residualstuff that the audience can
start to think about that canexhibit value?
Because I know you haven't givenup on it.
And if you did, I'd be reallydisappointed.
But let's talk about that for amoment.
(14:53):
Because honestly, I thinkthere's a lot that was always
there that has, you know,growing potential.
Mischa Dohler (14:59):
Yeah, I mean, we should probably, we should have
asked Mark Zuckerberg to be withus on the call here.
Right?
So next time, let me give him abuzz.
Oh, yeah, that'd be great.
I mean, it's been, it clearlyhas been an overhyped and
overloaded term.
it means very different thingsfor a lot of people.
from different genres.
the whole concept of thatspatial internet, I don't think
(15:24):
it's dead at all.
And, I transited, I transformed,I grew from a, ambassador, into
a true believer when I tried onthe metal Orion glasses.
I was one of the few lucky oneswho could do that.
And it has really blown my mind.
So I don't want to.
Give advertisement credit to anyspecific company.
(15:45):
But I've seen the first timeever I have seen a sleek device
sexy enough for me to walkaround with it for a sustained
period with great optical, andgeneral technical capabilities.
Right?
So we're getting there.
So the engineers, you give thema challenge.
And they somehow managed tocrack that.
the jury is still open if peoplewill actually adopt that.
(16:08):
I personally always, try tobelieve that history loves to
repeat itself.
And we had one gadget which grewlike, mad, which is the
smartphone, right.
I stopped with the iPhone, etcetera.
So we have that data starting2008.
We got a super exponentialgrowth there until now it's kind
of, flattening off, but it'sbeen a stellar story.
And then we have the, let's saythe smart watch.
(16:30):
I like to use this as a lowerbound, which is kind of a useful
device, but not everybody's cupof tea because I don't wear it
because it bothers me withplaying the piano.
So I'm not a smart watch guy atall, but you know, penetration
has a 30 percent were muchslower.
So therefore, we could imaginethat AR could be anything
between these two and eitherscenario is a good scenario for
(16:52):
us, a community use cases.
Listen, I always like to listento myself when I wear them the
whole day and play games.
I'm out of this age.
I've just gone over 50.
So it's downhill here from, but,you know,
Leonard Lee (17:08):
are you making fun of me?
Come on, man.
It's not that bad.
It's not that great, but it'snot
Mischa Dohler (17:15):
All right.
I love you too, man.
Anyway, stuff like navigation,having a call with your friend,
et cetera.
Or engaging, actually, what Ithink will be the even bigger
use case with the, LLM, with asmart agent, very interesting.
And Meta actually, you know, I'mnot sure they truly believe this
will really exponentiallyexpand.
(17:35):
So they've floated this idea andhas been announced publicly, to
actually have earbuds with alittle camera, So, and I can
imagine people wear this evenmore because it's not so
intrusive.
You have it all with you, thecameras is capturing like a 360.
It understands, the spatialcontext advises you, tells you
things.
Hey, you know, the future isstill wide open, but we're
getting there.
(17:56):
It's crucial.
Spatial compute, whatever youcall it, is not dead.
Leonard Lee (18:00):
All right, there, there you have it.
Okay.
So do I give my take?
Do I have no, I think you're,you're tuning into a number of
really good things.
I think 1 of the caveats itboils down to silicon.
Are we there with thesemiconductor technology?
And, can we get the power powerefficiency?
(18:20):
And, the density to supportthese form factors.
And, 1 of the things I'venoticed is that a lot of these
devices are becoming actually,smartphone reliant.
They're not standalone devices.
And I think, with the Orion, 1of the things that they didn't
make quite clear, and manypeople didn't talk about is that
(18:41):
you do have that puck.
Right.
And so, oddly, I like that youbrought up the smartphone and
how it went universal, right?
It's a universal device and itseems like it still continues to
have a role.
And I think it's 1 of thereasons why it's not a, not
(19:03):
something that to be ignored theinnovation that's happening is
in how it's becomingincreasingly multifunctional,
but it.
It's expressing itself in veryboring ways that are actually
very transformative or enablingother transformative, let's say,
peripherals like smart glasses.
Because I've tried.
I was at CES.
(19:24):
I tried a bunch there.
Getting better.
I have to say in terms of, anyof these XR experiences,
division pro by far destroyseverybody.
they're so far ahead.
It's not even funny, but, Ithink in terms of the AR stuff.
no, and the only reason why Isay this is because I just see
(19:46):
so many haters out there talkingnonsense about the device that
they never even tried, that Ithink we'll get there.
I think we're going to have tostart with simpler and that's
what seems to be gettingtraction like metas Ray ban
classes, but the use case and alot of people talk about.
(20:07):
Is the camera, even though theywanna put a lot of attention to
the ar.
When I talk to folks who, usethat device, they talk about the
the camera, taking videos andstuff, and having that first
person view, one of the things Ihave talked about for quite some
time, the immersive media areasis probably gonna be a pretty
(20:28):
hot thing.
And even with some of thesesmart glasses, one of the key
use cases when I'm on a plane.
I can either do productivity orI can watch a movie on a
gigantic screen, as silly andtrivial as that sounds,
especially with these planes.
He's getting small and smaller.
If you're not flying first classlike you, it's something that I
think has growing.
Mischa Dohler (20:51):
but, you know, I'm with you on this actually,
and we will probably see as we,have seen as big as with a
smartwatch, right?
So the power users.
So, and that's what we areinterested from an Ericsson
point of view, what does itmean?
And typically, you know, Pareto,Zipf's law kick in at some
point.
So we know that, from all thepopulation using the device,
about 20 percent will be powerusers.
(21:12):
And the question now is how muchpower is power, right?
Is it, will that be using thatfor 24 hours, 12 hours Three
hours, because that really willinfluence the way how we need to
dimension the uplink, and thedownlink and the uplink.
If you think about it, you havethese glasses on and they're
actually interestingly notstreaming video at 60 FPS frames
per seconds.
They take, maybe once persecond, five.
(21:32):
Per second.
So if you work at, let's sayfive, 500 per second, they need
a much lower resolution.
Interesting because the LLMs getaway with recognizing objects
at, 480, P resolution, which isreally low.
So you get something like 200kilobits per second uplink
roughly.
but still, still, you have.
20 percent of population's powerusers, doing this for, let's say
(21:53):
four hours, Verizon, Timo andAT& T need to start, seriously
considering upgrades to get, weneed more stuff, we need more
upgrades and all that.
So for us as an industry, Ithink it's an exciting time.
but we still have uncertaintyon, how many users will really
pick those up.
Leonard Lee (22:07):
And then how quickly, I think also the
architecture.
Will evolve, and then to yourpoint how does the data flow,
but you're making a reallyinteresting point about the, AI
vision that, or, what folks callcomputer vision that's different
from human vision.
Right?
It doesn't have to be you know,8k, you know what I'm saying?
(22:31):
Experience for, an AIapplication, right?
Much lower res.
It's an important point thatyou're making there
Mischa Dohler (22:40):
you can test it out yourself.
Just take an image downsize itto whatever resolution and just
try different ones and throw itinto an LLM and ask him, what do
you see?
And you'll be surprised.
They're pretty good at this.
So therefore just gettingcontextual insights about your,
spatial environment with afairly low frame rate or
resolution is okay.
Different thing is if you havea, an influence, I dunno, it was
(23:02):
like you, actually giving eightK or 4K videos.
But even then if you listen toNVIDIA's announcement at cs,
they announced that Super re rels I think it's called, or LSA,
I can't remember.
you could perfectly four 80 and78, whatever.
And then you have AI basically,upscale that for your viewers to
then digest.
(23:23):
Yeah.
ELSS.
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (23:24):
That's upscaling.
Yeah, there's a lot oftechnologies out there that you
have to think about as these.
Systems evolve.
You mentioned Nvidia, youmentioned AI.
So inevitably, I have to pickyour brain up.
What is this guy thinking aboutwhen it comes to all this
generative AI goodness?
I mean, what's your view on it?
(23:45):
And, in an overarching way.
Not specific to LLMs and thingslike that.
Mischa Dohler (23:51):
I mean, specifically NVIDIA and Jensen,
I mean, the guy is just gettingevery wave right.
I mean, look at CS, he basicallywent, you know, everybody now is
thinking enterprise.
He announced a consumer product.
I tried to buy it.
It was sold out in twomilliseconds, you know.
And it's basically a superpowerful, computer.
You can have at home.
(24:11):
The only downside is the memoryis actually not good enough to
run.
Let's say the larger models likethe deep sea or any of the other
stuff, but they will probablyaddress that over time.
So he goes from wave to wave andI wouldn't be surprised if the
GTC will announce, another bigenterprise thing, which will
blow everybody out of theirmind.
Because currently, as we know,other players like AWS and
(24:33):
Google can announce their chipfabric.
He's somehow always ahead ofthis.
And I'm not surprised becausethe way how that work is, I
think, very market driven,they're not no five year
PowerPoint planning exercises.
So they're much more nimble toaddress the market.
So I don't work for Nvidia, butI could imagine inside it's a
little bit more chaotic thanother companies, they get stuff
(24:54):
done and, I think they knewalready that the training market
at some point.
We'll go down.
It's not only because the costper token goes down for in
appearance and for training, butalso we get much more nimble
with the training.
We have good foundationalmodels.
Now is a lot, just fine tuning,but also new models are being
announced, which do not requirethe tokenized approach.
(25:16):
So, M.
I.
T.
Stanford, uh, and meta haveannounced non token based
models.
So the jury's Still out, whichway this sentient AI really will
go.
And he knows though, thatinference will always require
compute no matter what.
And he will be a winner.
Yes or yes.
So either it's enterprisesneeding a lot of compute for
(25:37):
inference and training or and,or it will be people doing a lot
of inference, no matter what weneed, probably GPUs or what type
of fabric to really grow.
So here you go.
Leonard Lee (25:46):
No, okay.
All right.
Wow.
the guy.
And I mean, Jensen, and hisjacket, you know, you guys have
something in common that's likepretty We do.
Mischa Dohler (25:54):
I took you, it took you a half an hour to
realize, was he you first orhim?
I was first.
No doubt.
I've been wearing, not thisjacket, but you know, I've been
going like this for 20 years, soYeah.
So he copied you basically?
We did, yeah.
Control V straight up.
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (26:10):
Well, you know what was weird?
I was on an analyst call and Iwas talk, you know, I, pitched a
question to him and he noticedmy mac and.
I told him, look, I'll give youmy Mac if you give me one of
your jackets.
And so, yeah, I'm still waitingfor the jacket.
So, hey, you know, NVIDIA ARteam, the, the, the offer is
still out there.
Mischa Dohler (26:32):
My friend just posted me a mock.
Leonard Lee (26:36):
Well, it looks like he has a new wardrobe based on
what he was wearing on.
Uh, yeah,
Mischa Dohler (26:42):
that's already not my thing.
So now he's really rock starwell,, I'm not, I'm maybe in 10
years time.
I will, I will change my outfitfor the time being.
Yeah, I mean, what's your take?
Nvidia and, competition isheating up.
New chips are being announced.
And, yeah, I know every timethey announce something, it
feels like nobody can catch upwith them.
And then somebody catches up, goslightly above, and then they do
a new announcement.
(27:03):
What's your view?
You're really in the midst.
Oh,
Leonard Lee (27:05):
I think you mentioned deep seek, 1 way or
another, they're going to impactthe economics of everything and
that'll be profound, especially.
If what they're claiming interms of the training costs are
irregardless of all the minutiaethat people are trying to.
you know, get into anddetermining how they achieved
(27:26):
and if they achieved what theydid, a bottom line is, there's
costs, but then there's priceand if the pricing that they put
out on the market, just changesthe economics, everything.
Then I think that's what we haveto really look at now, I think
is a great opportunity for thefolks who want to use,
(27:47):
generative AI functions andfeatures and capabilities and
embed them into theirapplications.
those are going to be thebeneficiaries, but, I think
folks still need to be cognizantof the limitation of the
technology.
It's still very limited, eventhough we see these benchmarks
that show, oh, you know, they'rereally great.
you have to continually considerthem with the bigger picture of.
(28:11):
Okay, what are you using thisfor?
Does it align with what thetechnology does?
Right?
And there is definitely a valuethat is going to be extracted.
Out of this, and I think that'sthe opportunity you start to
look at, because once theeconomics change, the ROI at the
application level becomesdifferent, right?
(28:32):
Because a lot of the POCs thatwe hear in enterprises, yeah,
you know, here's some benefit,but it's friggin too expensive.
Right?
Yeah.
Changes.
Then we'll see adoption, butit's going to down that
upstream.
And what I mean, towardsSilicon, it's going to impact
there.
So it could very well be, theevent that changes everything
(28:55):
and will force all of us tothink in a different way about
this stuff.
Mischa Dohler (28:59):
Yeah.
Leonard Lee (29:00):
Yeah.
Mischa Dohler (29:01):
It's maybe a good time.
You know, I always talk about.
Uh, the AA being a real gamechanger for telecoms, AA
standing, for the AAA battery toeject new energy.
And one, the first A stands for,ai, the second for API, and the
second and third one for ar.
So I haven't changed my pitch onthis one.
I still believe AAA is the wayto go for our telco industry.
(29:22):
We talked about ar., I haven'ttalked about API yet, but I
strongly believe that we havereally managed Ericsson
specifically, you know, with themassive investment into
Warnoche, even though we had tounderwrite quite a bit of this
now, but at least people startedto believe.
So the whole industry now thinksplatform for the 1st time, truly
for the 1st time.
So I'm a big believer that AIreally interesting.
(29:42):
I would like to highlight maybethe work of.
Two people.
I really admire.
One is my buddy, Demis Hassabis,who is from Google DeepMind.
He very quietly, rather thanbeing out there and telling
everybody how great they are interms of AGI for consumers,
they're actually doing realthings for society, right?
He just published the other day,an article saying that their
(30:04):
alpha fold has done the researchwork of 10, 000 PhDs, over three
to five years time, they'vediscovered new materials, which,
would have taken us another 500years to come up with, and
they've just done it like thiswith GPU, but it's incredible.
You know, that goes intomedicine, real game changes.
(30:25):
And that brings me To my anotherperson, I really adore Stanford
professor, um, Eric Brimstone,who is, an economist who joined
Stanford four or five years ago.
I think he will get, Demis got aNobel prize in, I think it was
physics right in the end of theday.
I think, Eric will get it ineconomics, I believe.
So he worked a lot on neweconomic models.
(30:46):
And he's arguing very hard islike, if we continue on that,
Yeah, the dystopian path ofbuilding AI, which is trying to
do what we do.
We are just undermining themiddle class.
And then the economic model ofmodern society will collapse
because the value of money hasno sense anymore.
Right.
and he argues we should ratherfocus AI to do stuff we cannot
(31:09):
do.
He draws always these threeareas, ABC, what humans can do,
be a little thing.
What we try.
AI to replicate, and then C,which is basically the largest
blank canvas, where really weshould focus AI on and AGI to do
things we cannot do.
We would never be able to doeven with a million years of
(31:30):
evolution.
So, and that is something Iwould like us to focus more on
and less off some Altman's anddeep seek and all that, if it
makes sense.
Leonard Lee (31:39):
Agree with you, but that's a tough study.
I think it's going to take folkslike you and hopefully, me and
others to, support thatnarrative, which I think can,
suffer from distraction quite.
Significantly, and that's 1 ofthe reasons why I try to ground
the conversation around as muchas possible, because if we
(32:01):
don't, then we get focused onthings that are not necessarily,
substantial, and maybe even onthe realm of delusional then, we
also provide opportunities forthe technology to be misused.
And I think that's one of thebig problems right now okay.
So you asked me, what am Iexpecting out of this year?
(32:22):
The other thing is, I'mexpecting it for it to be used
tremendously in enabling thedark economy.
So, being used in cyber attack,cyber crime, and, we're going to
see a proliferation of deepfakes.
The cyber security industry andthe emerging cyber trust
industry is going to number 1 bechallenged, but, in order for,
(32:46):
economies to survive, that trustinfrastructure needs to be built
in and that's going to, start tobecome an increasingly important
topic for governments.
At a government level, becauseif we can't instill trust in
commerce trade and, economy,then all the stuff kind of falls
apart.
And 1 of the things that alwayssticks in my mind.
(33:08):
And for anyone who goes to anyof the Microsoft, events, watch
the cyber security segment.
This cyber criminal economy, orI think they call it the anti
economy or something like thatis the fastest growing economy
in the world.
It is much higher than the U SChina, India, any of these mega
(33:28):
economies.
Wow, bigger and it's 3rd.
It went from 8 trillion.
I don't know how to calculatethis, but, for the sake of
discussion, a spouse for amoment, these numbers, 8
trillion to 9.
2 trillion.
You do the math that's doubledigit growth.
(33:51):
I think if we give those numbersany credence, that's going to
drive, an urgency in reducingthe risk and threat that is,
associated with that economy.
And, to your point, if we can'tfind the good in AI, people are
going to use it to create thealternative economy so that they
(34:11):
can feed themselves.
Mischa Dohler (34:13):
Yeah, I know.
It's great point.
I didn't know these stats.
This is really scary, and, um, Iwas just thinking, you know, our
telco industry could really playa strong role because we, we are
an industry who actually knowswhere things happen.
So, if somebody was to, let'ssay, do a deep fake of you with
your voice and your etcetera andtry to get into your bank
account or convince your wife todo certain things, right?
So we would know.
(34:34):
Where this has happened, whetherthis is plausible, and in fact,
one of the bondage, we acquiredthis API comes to bondage.
One of the APIs is offering thistoday.
So if you combine these 2 thingstogether, we could be a
trustworthy.
So it's great.
Ideally.
No, you know what?
Oh, my God.
Leonard Lee (34:50):
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I mean, what a great segue intothe API.
I think this is absolutely.
An important thing, because, youknow, I wrote a piece on, the
network APIs and what'shappening with the Duna, what
its role is.
Almost 7 years ago, did a studyfor off calm that you're a chair
(35:12):
of, you know, that every decadethey do the.
The technology futures, right?
Well, we want that work, to helpoff comms research team, figure
out, in the five to 10 yearhorizon from now, what are the
technologies and trends that weneed to look for?
One of the three trends that wetalked about was the emergence
(35:36):
of the trust infrastructure,right?
And so if you think about Whatthe Vonage fraud prevention
solution set, which is enabledby network APIs, right?
There's also comms APIs there aswell, but that actually does
(35:56):
dovetails nicely into this idea.
But the Duna exchange, I call itan exchange.
It provides that, global.
Footprint and framework for thattrust to happen.
And one of the things I cited inmy piece was that one of the
important things about a Dunais, is going to go through the
(36:17):
hard work of, defining andscaling out trust.
cause when people think aboutAPIs, they just think, Oh, from
a technical perspective, Iconnect this, this, and then, we
can somehow get.
frigging 5G connectivity throughthese APIs are some weird thing,
right?
But that's not even the half ofit.
(36:39):
The real reason why you guyshave Aduna and you're working
with operators to do this is to,is literally, whether or not you
guys know it or not, is tocreate a trust framework so that
these APIs can be used globallyin a trusted way.
But it's interesting that one ofthose functions, the first use
cases, is a trust use case.
(37:00):
It's a trust application, youknow,
Mischa Dohler (37:03):
yeah, you're spot on.
I mean, I'm listening withfascination.
I mean, absolutely.
Right.
And you know, what betterindustry or what better player
to leverage on that trust carthan us, right?
Because we do have trustedrelationships with all the
operators around the world.
So therefore there is a bignarrative there.
(37:25):
and then developers will starttrusting that as well.
And it's interesting, you can'thave your application, do one
day, not do it, not work oneanother day.
So therefore, I think that'swhat I do and I will do is,
really make sure all these APIswork 24 seven with an SLA of,
99, five nines, whatever,what's.
The requirement of the industry.
So whoever builds application ontop, no, they can really build a
(37:48):
proper business case on top, andthen make whatever needs to be
made.
So, yeah, I, you're absolutelyright.
That trust element never struckme.
So clearly until you mentionedthat good point.
Leonard Lee (37:58):
Without it, none of this happens and I don't mean
just trust in terms of thereliability or trust of the.
system, but trust in, do youknow who is consuming the, the
service, via the APIs and,actually the more, so if you
read the piece, obviously youdidn't read my piece.
I'll send it to you later.
(38:19):
Yeah, I will read,
Mischa Dohler (38:21):
of course, I'll, I always read your
Leonard Lee (38:22):
piece when I see them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not just that there's theregulatory bit.
When we look at the geopoliticallandscape and where things are
going, where things are becomingmore divided and bifurcated
interests are becoming moreisolated and alienating, that
brokering of trust and,reduction of the friction.
(38:43):
Of being able to trust people atis the main function.
If you don't have that.
doing that, individually, is atremendous cost.
So you kill the entireopportunity that you're looking
for.
But if you can make that,fabric, a trust fabric, right?
For this bigger picture, it'sthat grease that makes the wheel
(39:08):
turn right?
That flywheel everyone talksabout.
And so if you read my piece,that's why I thought this is an
essential thing.
And it was an interesting.
evolution of what you guys aredoing with GMP, which I wrote
about a long time ago, as wellas, the rationale around,
buying, Yeah.
Yeah.
So, surprising was morethoughtful than I thought.
(39:31):
Um, it's just that.
I don't comment on price, but,the obvious happened.
But the thing is that if youlook at the intent and the
thinking around.
Where are you guys and theindustry was at the time?
Mischa Dohler (39:49):
Yes, already at the time of purchase.
I think a lot of my colleagues,we're really polarized, right?
So somehow this ground is ofauthority as a complete
overkill, you know I was one ofthe folks who had a deep
admiration for very actually todo that simply because you know
I built companies and I knowthat sometimes you really need
to do a Bold move, to get thingsmoving.
(40:10):
And it's very expensive tochange the demand side of an
industry, whether that'sconsumer or B2B, when you put 6
billion on the table, theindustry will listen.
And, it's the price we paid forchanging the industry.
It's not necessarily the pricewe paid for getting money back
through the APIs.
Right.
So that platform transformation,which we as a telecom industry
(40:32):
have talked about since 4G hasnow finally happened because of
this.
So, I thought super bold.
I would have done it again andagain.
Maybe I would have negotiated alittle more on the price, and
I'm sure the leadership team hasdone that.
It's where we are, but now theindustry takes the right way.
I'm hopeful.
Leonard Lee (40:50):
Yeah, so, a lot of exciting stuff.
We can go on forever.
but we're gonna have to cut thisoff.
Otherwise we will go on forever.
Uh, this is awesome.
we should do this again andagain to our audience because,
there are some folks who are outthere that they want things
spoon fed to them.
this wasn't for spoon feedingmission.
(41:12):
I, yeah, We decided we're goingto get together this morning and
hit the record button.
That's it.
hopefully you found some insightand perspectives that were
helpful.
maybe, enlightening.
1 things for certain, I alwayshave a great time chatting with
you.
I'm glad we were able to capturea little bit of that lightning
(41:33):
in the bottle for our audiencehere.
tell our audience how theyshould get in touch with you.
Mischa Dohler (41:40):
All right.
So, I mean, the easiest thingwould be probably, just to drop
you a message and then youcontact me.
Now, I got it back to you.
Just, just, yeah, connect onLinkedIn.
you know, drop me an email.
My email is simple as misha.
dollard.
com and, happy to discussfurther and, you know, if you
have any interesting thought, itwould be good, to get on a call
(42:00):
with Leonard, actually the threeof us, the four of us, whatever
the five of us, you know, Tokind of have a intellectual
firepower, a bust on whatever wewant to talk about.
So it's always great to talk toyou later.
I just love it.
I remember in London, he has arainy London day.
I think last year where we just,earlier with an early morning,
but it's nobody that you and mecrunching one hardcore topic off
(42:24):
another.
Uh, it's just such so analog,right?
I think I called it an analogmorning.
It's just beautiful.
So that's little than me.
So fantastic.
Thanks for having me on theshow, buddy.
Hopefully, you know, we canrepeat that one another day.
Leonard Lee (42:36):
Oh, yeah, of course, hopefully it won't take
three years hopefully we'll havea lot of folks who you know took
a lot from this, Conversation.
I know I did it's always greatto have a chat with you And by
the way, he's a great speakerHis daughter is a friggin
amazing musician.
and just beautiful voice.
wonderful artists, such atalented family.
(42:59):
And he has the best jackets andthe best shoes.
I did see your shoes earlierwhen you pointed your laptop
down.
So, you know, Yes, you, youdelivered on the fashion front.
thanks everyone for tuning in,please subscribe to our podcast,
which will be featured on thenext curve, YouTube channel,
check out the audio version onbuzz sprout, or find us on your
(43:22):
favorite podcast platform.
Also subscribe to the next curveresearch portal at www.
next curve.
com for.
The tech and industry insightsthat matter.
And with that, adios, we'll seeyou.
Thank you so much,
Mischa Dohler (43:37):
Misha.
Fantastic.
Adios.
Hasta la proxima.
Thank you, my friend.
Cheers.
Bye.
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