February 14, 2025 • 47 mins
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What uncanny fears keep you up at night? Join us as we unravel the intricacies of fear and superstition on the latest episode of the Nightmare Engine podcast. We're thrilled to have Christine Daigle, a versatile writer shifting from steampunk to dark thrillers, join us for an exploration into the eerie and unsettling. Together, we navigate through an array of chilling superstitions, from the haunting Latin of exorcism prayers to the disquieting tales of mirrors in shadowy rooms, all while sharing personal stories from my past as a police officer facing the unknown.
As we journey further, the discussion takes exhilarating twists into the realm of irrational fears and dangerous thrills. From the heights of skydiving to the ominous fear of trains, we dissect why some dangers entice us while others paralyze us with fear. Alongside Christine, we ponder the neuroscience behind sociopathic behavior, featuring insights from neuropsychologist James Fallon, and examine the role of environmental influences in shaping one's moral compass through gripping anecdotes of investigating violent crimes.
The episode culminates in a heartfelt discussion on the power of empathy and human connection. We reflect on the importance of acknowledging emotions and fostering genuine interactions, much like those learned from FBI interrogator training. Our conversation also touches on the fascinating intersection of technology and mental health, diving into the potential, and potential pitfalls, of brain-computer interfaces. With a lighter touch, we end with a humorous story about an airline system playfully named Skynet. Tune in for a rollercoaster of emotions and insights that promise to leave you both pensive and entertained.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of
excuse me, another episode ofthe Nightmare Engine podcast.
It's about five o'clock on thelast day of January and it does
not even feel like the last dayof the month.
This month seems like it'd keepgoing, especially with the
weather here in Texas.
This is episode eight orsomething of season three, maybe
I don't know.
It doesn't matter, it justmatters that you were here and
(00:23):
you were listening.
So just a real quick recap onwhat's been going on.
I just got the sound bites backfrom the first audio edition, I
guess you could say, of ScareMail 2, which is called, titled
the Drift.
It's going to be taking placein space.
This is Silence of the lambs,um, uh, meets a space horror.
(00:45):
So, uh, for my friends of fansof event horizon astrophobia, um
, alien, um, if you're lookingto listen to a lady who sounds
just like sigourney weavernarrate these letters, it is
going to be awesome.
Um, besides that, I got somemore requests to focus on um,
another horror book we gotcoming out this year.
It would be my.
(01:06):
I think it would be the thirdone this year Roanoke.
So we had some discussions lastweek with another author in the
previous episode about weirdoccurrences that have no
explanation, how that makesgreat basis for writing horror
stories.
So that's what I got, guys.
Nothing too crazy, justmaintaining things.
I'm back on Facebook, finally.
(01:26):
I never thought I'd say that,but I'm unbanned from Facebook,
but there's some blessings there, and so I'm just really happy
to go back to what I know, goback to what I'm creating and
bring you all along with me.
So I'm very lucky to be in thepresence of Good Company tonight
.
I'm not alone on this show,even though our guest is not
said anything.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd liketo introduce you to Miss
(01:46):
Christine Daigle.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Christine how are you ?
I'm great.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Pretty good considering all things.
I know we were chatting alittle bit before the show, but
a little bit different side ofthe country, the world, than me,
so where are you calling infrom again?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
than me.
So where you calling from again?
Oh, I'm in ontario, southernontario.
I am actually, uh, about 10minutes outside of detroit.
For you folks in the us, I'msouth of detroit, so the journey
song is in fact about me, bornand raised in south detroit and
and so you have snow.
Then oh yeah, it's snowingright now as we speak.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, so we had snow in texas, and by snow in Texas I
mean it coated the ground andpeople panic and lost their
minds.
Um, I grew up in on the Eastcoast and so I'm I'm very well
aware of what snow does.
Um, and and for whatever reason, it just makes people lose
their minds.
It's, it's, it's kind ofunbelievable.
I'm not trying to talk aboutthe weather so much as I am
(02:41):
about just the human conditionof like.
There is change and now badthings are happening.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, and you're not used to that down there in Texas
, you're not used to that stufffalling from the sky.
No, no, if it's 105,.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
We got this Like let's go to work, but as soon as
there's a little bit of snow oreven water, yeah.
Well, anyways, so cool.
Well, anyways, so cool.
Christine, I know a bit aboutyou, but I don't think the
listeners do.
And that's okay, because a lotof times we recognize people
based on the book covers ormaybe who we've co-written with
(03:13):
and that sort of thing.
Versus face-to-face, like this,writing's a lonely business.
We don't get to meet peoplevery often.
So, christine, give us a littlebit who you are and what do you
do.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh sure so I'm a writer.
Surprise, you know who you areand what do you do.
Oh sure, so, uh, I'm a writer.
Surprise, shocker.
Uh, I'm a bit of a multi-genrewriter.
So, oh, I've been writing about10 years now.
I guess my first book that cameout I co-wrote, uh, was
steampunk.
And then steampunk yeah, it wasmy.
It was vampires and zombies.
We don't call zombies and youknow, adventure, that kind of
(03:44):
thing.
Uh, I wrote serials for a while.
Pen named did a sci-fi series,did a horror series, uh, for
several years.
And now I am writing darkthrillers with jd barker just
had one come out.
That is kind of a seven meetssilence of the lambs vibe old
(04:05):
school killer meets high-techkiller and bad stuff ensues tell
me it's got like a oh my god,what's in the box?
Speaker 1 (04:13):
moment.
No, there's no what's in thebox, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
There's no such an opportunity yeah, so cool, so
dark thrillers um, is there adifference between a dark and a
(04:39):
light thriller?
Read through them and one ofthem was just like.
I had to put this down becauseit was so visceral and I
couldn't keep going and I'm likeyes, that's how you know you're
reading a dark thriller butdoesn't visceral mean like
relatable, yeah well, I thinkthat there was also something
about violence and gore in there, but we're gonna go with
(04:59):
visceral.
So what?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
so you ask like how, how is this reader relating to
this, if it's so visceral?
And you got like what kind oflife are you living Like lady?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
let's talk, yeah, I know, and I was like great,
because that's your job as awriter.
Right is to create anexperience.
So if I can make someone sosquicked out that they put down
the book, I have done my job.
I was just delighted with thatreview.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, well, very cool, and that's um, so is
that?
What makes Darth Vader a littlebit different thing is just
kind of the relatability to it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I think maybe the level of, like, uh, violence and
murder, so this one might be alittle.
There's a lot of people die inthis book in some pretty
horrific ways.
Well and hopefully creativeways right yeah, and then you
know, I think just uh, reallycreating some monsters.
I, I know, in horror you haveall kinds of monsters, I think
in thrillers people are themonsters and I've got some, some
(05:56):
pretty significant monsters inthat book yeah, so that's kind
of where the lines blur a littlebit too because, I I wrote a
story um as part of my thesis,and the entire point was to just
have people be the monsters andshow like, yeah, there was a
monster there, but it reallyisn't the bad thing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I mean, think about what happens in every single
zombie movie yeah zombies justkeep people in a close knit
right.
They're just standing at thedoor, you can't leave, and then
it's just what people do to eachother.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
That's awful exactly those are like my favorite
horrors, usually like there arealways exceptions to everything,
but when you don't see themonster, or like all that
tension up until you see themonster.
And then when peoples are, whenpeople are the monsters and
there are other monsters.
That's my favorite.
Like I was just reading adamneville uh, his new book it's
(06:43):
all the fiends of hell and itwas just horrific monsters, but
the people were the worstmonsters.
And that's my favorite kind ofhorror.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, unless you're like M Night Shyamalan and do it
like terribly in the village.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We won't talk about that.
Because like kudos to the guyfor putting on a cool twist, but
like also not kudos for ruiningit and doing it the worst way
possible yeah, I don't envy himbecause he had such success
early on and you know people arelike, oh my gosh, the twist
with the sixth sense andeverything, yeah, and now I feel
(07:18):
like he has to keep trying totop himself with twists, but
more for the sake of twists andserving the story and I don't
know.
I feel like he's uh needs tobreak out of what he's doing,
maybe a little bit right now.
Maybe do something with lesstwist yeah, yeah, well, and so
it's.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It's taken me a long time to be like really impressed
with like mainstream media anda movie or TV show that was had
that kind of hit you know likereally had that like right in
the middle, mind bender.
You know, I wrote a book likethat and it was like, and it's
called not okay, and it's gotthe biggest like kick I could
possibly come up with and like Iwas really proud of how well it
(08:01):
was executed or how well it wasreceived.
Um, but it doesn't seem to comenaturally.
You know, we really got to kindof push it a little bit and
really build a story around it.
Yeah, you know, I look fortwists like that as more like an
opportunistic thing.
You know, it's like if it suitswhat I'm doing, right?
Yeah, there was a movie I sawlately.
(08:21):
It was called Speak no Evil.
It was played by and I think,based on what you write, I think
you would you would absolutelyadore this movie.
Um, it was played by thecharacter who plays like
professor x in uh, the young inx-men, but the younger version
you know, kind of got long hairbefore.
They were all x-men and charlesxavier and all that.
I can't remember the actor'sname.
I gotta find it um I'm suresomebody's like.
(08:43):
I know that, of course, yeah um,but anyways, in this though
he's like ginormous, like jacked, he's huge, right, and he plays
this character, um, in a frenchcountryside um, that is
basically um, not who he says heis right, and everybody kind of
watches from the exterior,watches this family just kind of
(09:04):
fall into it over and over andover again and watch this
character manipulate this guy,um, this family, to the point
that they're making all thewrong decisions in horror, right
, yeah, and and like hey, weshould split up or hey, we can
just wait another day and leavein the morning.
You know, like all the thingsyou're not supposed to do, and
the entire time you're just likescreaming at the characters
(09:27):
like please do the opposite.
Yeah, exactly, um, and so, likewatching this, I'm like how and
we talked about this last weekand it's just a reoccurring
thought in my head is like howdo we?
How do we keep that going, thatmomentum going, like why do we?
Why do characters always seemto fall into the same traps?
And I think it's probably this,like we said earlier, like the
(09:49):
human condition, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I, you know, I've thought about that a lot and I
think about with horror movies,cause you're screaming at them,
cause you know the trope, right,right, you know if you go into
the basement or you're openingthe door to let the cat outside,
or you know, because you'reprimed see a horror movie, that
something really bad is going tohappen and they should not go
(10:11):
in that basement.
But I'm like, if I was home bymyself and I heard a noise in
the basement, I would probablygo in the basement because I
wouldn't be thinking likethere's a psychopathic killer
down there who's going to cometo get me or whatever.
Right, right, yeah.
So I think it really is a humanthing to do.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, you kind of convince yourself like there
wouldn't be a scary thing,because this is the real world,
right.
Or in the book it's like ah,this is a regular world, there's
not this kind of stuff waitingfor me?
And it inevitably is.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yes, and then you hesitate and no, we're not.
Then you hesitate and no, we'renot gonna.
Okay, we're not going down thatdark path like this can't be
happening.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, it is a movie, while back called nope.
And I wonder if, like theentire movie was basically just
a whole bunch of bad decisionslike that they could have made
and they're like you know what,nope, nope, um, that'd be
interesting last week we talkeda bit, um, talked a little bit
about like cryptids and stufflike up in the mountains, like
and and there was a book I thinkit was called never whistle at
(11:08):
night.
I don't remember who was writtenby, but it was.
I think it was based off likean old belief, and so like I
kind of want to talk a littlebit about that, about about old
beliefs.
You know things that you knowalmost like traditions or things
that you kind of avoid to doingbecause of superstition and
that sort of thing, and I alwaysfind like, if there's a little
bit of truth to that somewhereright, because that's always
(11:30):
what happens with these darkstories there's always a little
bit of truth.
Um, I believe hannibal lecterwas based off a real person.
I just can't remember who hewas.
Um, so that makes it even morescary.
Right is because there is somelevel of truth to these things.
So think about the mothman likeyeah level of truth to the
mothman, somewhere at least alittle bit, you know.
Is there a truth to roanoke?
(11:50):
Is there a truth to any of this?
So like you know that thatwhole theory of like never
whistle at night, you know likewhere did that come from?
So I want to talk a little bitabout if there's any of those
types of weird things that youknow of that you're like you
know, I'm just not gonna do thatthing, I'm not gonna cross this
bridge at night, I'm not gonna.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You know, I'm saying you know I'm not a real
superstitious person, but yousometimes get those hairs on the
back of your neck.
That's like I better listen tothat and and not do that.
Yeah, that kind of thing like,uh, I'm gonna go a different way
than I usually would, or so.
I get those kind of thingssometimes where I'm like
(12:27):
something's just like don't dothis thing the way you normally
would, so I'll avoid things.
I don't know what that is.
I'm a person who'sunapologetically, I'm like I
don't believe in the thing, butI also don't not believe in the
thing sure so when people like,oh, do you believe in this?
I'm like I don't believe in it,but I also don't not believe in
(12:49):
it and I don't want to believein it, because then I'll be
freaked out right, like I know Iwrite horror.
But I am such a baby, like withhorror, like I will have
nightmares after watching horrormovies and after reading books.
I cannot sleep for like ages.
Um, in terms of superstitions,I don't know.
Mirrors freak me out.
(13:10):
I don't know that mirrors dofreak me out I don't know why.
That is especially mirrors inthe dark, like looking in a
mirror in the dark so I got fineI don't like that so I'll share
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's a little on the funny end, but it is still kind
of it, is it?
It it's for sharing.
So, um, my wife and I, we wereboth police officers.
Um we were cops when we met Um.
I'm still a cop, I'm just areserve now I'm full-time
writing Um.
But at one point my wife was uh,clearing a building her partner
she told me the story and I'mlike I could totally see this
(13:43):
because it could totally be athing.
And you know, when you clear abuilding you go through every
room, you know, and yourtension's high and you know your
nerves are going and you gotyour weapon out and you're
trying to protect yourself andwatch everything and see
everything and every littlemovement sticking out.
And you're going through abuilding.
There could be somebody inthere and you don't know what
he's got you don't know if he'seven in there gosh, you know and
(14:19):
don't even realize what you'regetting into yeah you know, and
couldn't even think about itanyways.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, so that was yeah, that's what it is, I think
, like in the dark and any kindof like movement in your
periphery or like behind you.
That really freaks me out.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
It's like you said, like do you believe in the thing
, do you really believe in it,or is it, you know, are you will
, a willingness to have an openmind, to believe in something
and and be like you know what?
as long as I don't keep the dooropen for it, I think I'm okay,
you know yeah I won't put latininto my books you won't put
latin in your books no, I don't,because I believe that latin,
(15:01):
you know, words have yeah, and Idon't want to be saying
something that could potentiallyhave power of any kind, good or
bad, like it's just not, youknow, like I listen to.
I listen like you've watchedthe exorcist movies and the
prayer, the exorcism prayersthat they do Like listening to
(15:23):
that.
That makes the hairs on my, youknow, stand up a little bit
Cause.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I guess to anybody else, when you say that stuff it
, it it's just words, right, butwhen you believe in it, you
know the power, even if it justhas power over you.
Like it's pretty, it's prettycreepy.
Do you believe in likeexorcisms and demons?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
and stuff.
I don't not believe in them,you know.
And, um, I don't not believe inthem.
You know, I grew up in a veryreligious household, so we can
start here um, my, my father'sactually a reverend, uh, so I'm
a preacher's kid whatdenomination uh, so united
church of canada, which is likeprotestant right, okay yeah.
so you know, I grew up with alot of that and with a lot of
(16:04):
people who have a lot of faithin that.
So like doing anything againstthat, yeah, that, like I would,
that would freak me out.
So using that in any kind ofweird way wrote had a lot kind
of explorations of religion andthe different way people
(16:26):
interpret religion to kind of gowith their own beliefs, because
I saw a lot of that growing up,like people would interpret
things different ways to justifydifferent things, some of them
good, some of them not so goodand I'm like, oh, it can be good
and it cannot be good.
But like, yeah, using anythinglike ancient texts like my dad
um had texted in like aramaicand sanskrit and ancient greek
(16:50):
and he read all that kind ofstuff because he was more
interested in the scholarlyaspect of it, that was kind of
his passion.
Yeah, that stuff's.
I don't like.
I don't know what that is.
I'm not saying that out loud,I'm not reading from the book of
the dead or the necronomicon,like that's not, that's not
happening, right yeah, I have nological reason to do it yeah,
(17:10):
no, thank you yeah as soon aswell, because how does the
horror story go?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
it goes like this it's like I don't.
I don't believe in this stuffyeah so let me just go read from
it I'm like what?
No, like.
This is the whole premise isyou don't do it right, and then
cthulhu's there, and then cosmichorror, and yeah okay, so
speaking of cthulhu and yes, andcosmic horror, um, so one of
the craziest things for me isthe, the feeling and realizing
(17:38):
how small we really, really areyeah like the sheer scale of our
worlds is is nothing.
It's a blimp, you know rightit's, it's a blip, it's nothing,
and and I get that feelingwhenever I watch a movie that
has like a black hole in it,right yeah and so I've got this
unnatural fear of black holes,um, and kind of watching what it
(18:00):
looks like when and when yousit there.
If you spend any amount of timethinking about how black holes
work, it's the end of all matter, but it does go somewhere
somewhere that's what's scaryabout it yeah, it's like light
can't even escape, like thinkabout that yeah light can't
(18:20):
escape that.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That whole concept to me is just yeah, it's
mind-blowing Matter, can't bedestroyed, right, so it can only
be changed, and so In a closedsystem.
But, I mean, I guess we wouldargue, the universe is a closed
system.
We would hope it's not an opensystem.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Our brain just explodes as we think about this
stuff.
But yeah yeah, I mean justrealizing how small you are
Right and realizing that likethat thing is so big and
powerful that it destroys light.
I mean that creates like asense in you that you're like
(19:01):
kind of grounds you a little bit, you know, like when I think
when I go swimming in the ocean.
I've got Hawaiian roots, so Ihave a respect for the ocean and
my mom has always taught me torespect the ocean.
I'm a confident swimmer but atthe same time I know that at any
point that if I'm notrespecting the ocean, the ocean
will take me.
There's a lot of things in thatocean that I have faith, that
are not going to kill me just byme swimming around and going
(19:24):
surfing on the beach in Hawaii.
You just kind of hope and pray.
You're going and doing thedangerous activities like
jumping out of an airplane, andyou're like, yeah, I've got a
parachute but I could just notjump out of the airplane.
Parachute, but I could just notjump out of the airplane.
You know, I could go swim inthe ocean or I could just not do
that, you know, because there'sa high risk of death and that
thing is, you know, there is nocontrol over that thing no um
(19:45):
and so yeah, just it's a weirdfeeling when you take a few
seconds and you're just like youthink about things that we do
it is a weird feeling.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Have you ever jumped out of an airplane?
Speaker 1 (19:56):
no, no, it's on my list of things to do.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I have, I have um yeah, skydiving I was younger, I
was in my twenties, right.
So now I'm like, no, I thinkI'm good, I think I like
survival.
But when I was in my twentiesI'm like, yeah, I'll go jump out
of an airplane, and um had doneone.
That is not tandem, so mostplaces will make you strapped to
your first jump out.
And of course, I'm 20 and, like, I have found a place where you
(20:24):
don't have to do that.
They won't strap you, they'lllet you pilot your own shoot
down.
Um, so that was wild.
They they have, uh, two guys goout with you and each one holds
an arm and a leg until theytell you to rip your chute and
then you're on your own, youpilot down, and I really wanted
to do that.
So that's what I did for myfirst jump.
Yeah, I was on a very smallplane, like I was the first jump
(20:48):
of the day, so they put me upwith these two guys and a pilot
and I was the only one jumping,and the plane was smaller than
the other ones where they openthe door and you jump out.
I had to stand on the wheel andhold on to the strut on the
wing with these two other guys.
So it was wild.
But, like I don't know, I thinkwhen you're younger you don't
really understand your mortalityquite as much because they make
(21:11):
you train.
So you have a simulation ofyour chute and you have to train
to untangle your chute in caseyour chute fails.
So you have to go through allthese situations of your chute
failing or tangling where youmight die, before they'll let
you jump out of the plane.
So that for me.
And then I did it anyway.
So I'm like I don't know what'swrong with me that I did that,
(21:33):
but it was fun, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So like the holding on to you, like my holding onto
your leg or whatever.
Yeah, you know, it reminds meof it.
Reminds me of like hey, um,you're drunk, son, I'll just
follow you home.
Yeah, like that false sense oflike, yeah, I'm protecting you,
like everything's fine, likeyeah.
As long as I follow you, youcrash your car because you're
drunk exactly, exactly it's likethat whole idea, like yeah,
(21:57):
your shoe will be fine as longas you pull it the right time,
because I'm holding your leg yes, I'm holding it.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It was, that was wild , yeah, so, um, I'm not sure
that I would do that now, butI'm glad that I did it yeah,
yeah, there's certain things I'mlike okay, like, but it's so
irrational of me too, I'll belike yeah, I'll go skydiving.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Like yeah, I have no problem, um, but like I won't
get on a train you can'tconvince me to, I won't do it is
that because you have nocontrol?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
is that a control thing?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
no, it's a.
It's a.
It's an irrational fear thingan irrational thing well, I
think it came from a book, uh,from stephen king.
Um, what about his flying train?
I can't remember the name of it, fuck thanks, stephen king.
Scaring people from the darktower series oh yeah it wasn't
eddie the train, but it was theglass bottom train that flies
okay like, like for whatever.
I read that book extremelyyoung and I can't just the whole
(22:49):
idea of the old steamlocomotive anyways, anyway yeah
irrational fear.
I'll jump out of an airplane,I'll go into a building with a
guy with a gun.
I'll do all that stuff, but youknow no trains.
I have another rational oneTornadoes Don't like them and
what's worse is like a roaringtornado, like going by.
(23:10):
Sounds like a train going by.
So that's even worse.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah Well, I'm actually at the end of what they
call tornado alley, so I'mfamiliar.
We'll get them here everycouple years and they do a
little bit of damage.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
So yeah, and you just like build a house in it, like,
yeah, build a house in tornadoalley, this is fine yeah what
are the odds?
It hits my house right, youknow yeah, let's just, let's
just take this gamble, it'll befine yeah you know, um, but yeah
, so like, like, uh, tornadoesthat's a control thing, because
like this, so it's such, so justyou know, so destructive yeah,
and you can't prepare for them.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
There's no warning right, not like hurricanes, not
like um.
You know, they just show up andthen touch down, right yeah and
, and then they leave and it'slike like thanks thank you for
destroying my house yeah, andit's, it's, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's a weird sense with it.
It's a weird sense with uh,with the tornadoes I used to
have to chase them as part of myjob, um, so we'd go and spot
them and I'd oh, wow my patrolcar and I'd get far enough away.
I kind of knew where it was atin the county and I would have
to watch it during the storm.
Now, anything about tornadoesis that, like, even the outlier
around the tornado is veryvicious because of that wind
that's coming in.
(24:15):
So like, even near the tornadoanywhere in that clouded area is
pretty much just tossing yourcar around.
So you know, we were doing thatup in West Texas where it's all
cap rock, so it's, it's thishilly, weird area that's very
volatile for natural disasterand for mudslides and that sort
of thing, just because it's allthis weird stony rock that can
kind of crumble really easily.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
No, thank you.
Pass Zero to 10.
Do not recommend, I do not wantto do that.
We said let's go build on it,right?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Let's go chase the storm.
So when I got up there, theywere like, hey, you're going to
have to we do storm chasing.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
They're like, yeah, person, Igo away from the tornadoes, and
no, you go towards it.
Oh no.
And I'm like I've seen twister.
I'm not going towards it andthey said you are and you know
it's your part of your job.
(25:02):
So so you faced your fears yeah,I faced my fears and I'm still
terrified yeah, do not liketornadoes, no um, you know and
and I don't know, like I saidit's, it's irrational, like I'll
jump out of an airplane, I'llgo in the ocean, um, but I weird
stuff like that.
Yeah, I don't know, like I said, it's, it's irrational, like
I'll jump out of an airplane,I'll go in the ocean, um, but I
weird stuff like that yeah, Idon't think a fear of tornadoes
is irrational, actually yeah, Iguess that's the point.
(25:26):
I mean it's a good point, it's,it is trains.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, I don't know about trains, but the tornado
ones, no, I'll be running theother way too.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Thanks, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah and some anyways.
So yeah, I just I think aboutthese situations, right yeah we
that we write about, we, wewrite about these situations and
we try to make them asrealistic for folks as possible,
like what we think they wouldencounter right.
And so for a lot of people thatis where the fear starts.
(25:54):
And you know, we we relate topeople with that because, like,
anybody is kind of can be afraidof jumping off an airplane
right if you can make that scaryyeah you know, anybody, can you
know if you think about um, thelangoliers by king?
you know those are mini blackholes, these little black thing,
these little fur balls withteeth at eight time, like that's
pretty much a black hole yeah,I mean it's the same thing, and
(26:16):
he just made it really small andmade a whole bunch of them and
I'm like, oh man, like herelated to me on that level,
because that's what I thought ofthese things.
I couldn't relate to what alangolier was, but I could
relate to what I thought alangolier was related to.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
You know, I think that's a keyright is making it concrete and
experiential, so something thatyou can get your hands on in the
real world and you canexperience, or at least imagine
experiencing.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, exactly Like, if it's so unreal, then the
monster is not even scaryanymore.
Whatever that monster thing is,you know, like, after a certain
point, like and I wonder thisyou've written some kind of
serial killer thriller ish.
You know, in the, you know, doyou try to humanize the killer.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
It's probably of course, you have to like your
serial killers.
They're people too.
They're the heroes of their ownstory, that's, they think
they're doing the right thingfor the right reasons that's
exactly right, you know yeahit's like reminds me of dexter
yeah, of course you have to,otherwise they're cartoonish,
right, they're two-dimensional.
If they're, I always like Iknow we're not talking writing
(27:20):
process, but I'm going to talkwriting process anyways, but
I'll spreadsheet, uh, when I'mdoing a revision, and then be
what is my killer doing now?
right right, because that thathas to be driving.
And what are they thinking andwhat is their perspective on
this scene?
Cause they're not just someonethat come in to like, twirl a
mustache and then walk off Evilfor evil's sake, yeah.
(27:44):
They're the other half of thatstory, right, and it's their
story too.
It's not just the protagoniststory, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think that's kind of the crazier things.
Like I went to Zach baggins'shaunted house um in las vegas
and whether or not it was thereal one or not, it could just
be television, but like they hadI think it was gacy's um
basically giant punch bowl thathe used to boil people in.
(28:13):
Oh, like, whether or not it wasthe real one, yeah, you know
that still would give you likegazey was a monster, right?
yeah but in his mind it wasn't.
He still have a day job as aclown yeah, he was a clown, yeah
, yeah he still had a normal job, yeah right, or normal to a
(28:33):
degree, right, and then at homehe had that big pot of boiling
like, and that's that's.
That's what's scary, rightthat's what's scary is that,
like I think that's probablywhere we get that sense from too
, and you're just like you walkpast somebody and you get a
weird, a weird sense from them.
Like that felt weird.
Like do I really want to beclose to this person, kind of
(28:54):
like, get out of this room rightnow with this person like this
does not?
You know?
There's probably a sense therethat we're just picking up.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, like when
you look, we can get into serialkillers if you want, but, um,
you know how many people werelike, oh, they're a quiet guy,
they're the guy next door,they're a nice, they'd help you
out, you know, yeah, and thenthey're so dark and I mean I
find them fascinating, right,because it's like, and some of
(29:24):
them have wives and families notvery many, uh, female serial
killers, but some, some of themhave husbands and, um, it's just
like, how do you justify this?
Because you have to, like, youhave to be able to justify it,
otherwise you wouldn't be ableto live with yourself, right?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I think a part of them doesn't justify it.
They just kind of ignore thejustification.
They just kind of do.
Yeah so they lack justification.
You know, we, as the normal,regular people, want
justification.
We want them to have any reasonto do this other than because
they can.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And I think that's probably where the illness comes
from.
You know, that's probably wherethe lack of empathy towards
human life comes from is thefact that they can't Right.
So if you talk about sociopaths, I think it's the sociopaths
that can't feel anything.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, that's interesting.
So my day job I'm aneuropsychologist, so we can
talk about this a little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
We should absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
There was a really, really interesting
neuropsychologist and his namewas James Fallon, not Jimmy
Fallon James Fallon who wasstudying sociopaths and their
brains.
What we know is that when wesee something that should make
us emotional, like a baby cryingor an animal hurt, the emotion
area of our brain lights up likethe amygdala that area, whereas
someone who is a quotesociopath looks at it, they
(30:48):
think about it with theirintellectual areas, their more
frontal areas.
But he was doing this study andhe was also studying dementia
patients and I think.
And then he had scanned hisfamily just to look at their
brains and he's like, oh, one ofthese scans from the sociopaths
got mixed in with my family.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And it was his own brain.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
It was his own brain, yeah, and so it started this
whole thing about yeah, and soit started this whole thing
about pro-social and anti-socialsociopaths.
So some people who have goodinfluences are doing things.
Maybe they don't feel them thesame way as some other people,
but they know that they'reintellectually the right thing
(31:31):
to do and and they are what theycall pro-social sociopaths.
But when you have people maybewho have missed that and what
research shows like is when theyhave nobody who is their
cheerleader or supporting themor showing them pro-social ways,
they can go down really darkpaths.
Um, I get, I get kind of veryinterested.
(31:54):
Yeah, I was watching the Dahmerone and it was like they just
left him on his own, like hiswatching the Dahmer one, and it
was like they just left him onhis own, like his parents
abandoned him for months and itwas like with someone looking
out for him would it have beendifferent?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I don't know they lack so they lack inherently
like a moral compass, right, butthey can watch others and see
reason in their moral compassand adopt it and so they become
a functional sociopath.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, so their morals are more intellectual than
emotional.
If that makes sense, they thinkabout it cognitively.
This is the right thing to do,then be feeling like, oh man,
this would make me feel sadright.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
so they think of it like, hey, I shouldn't murder
this person because I could goto jail and bad things could
happen to me.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
versus yeah, or like you know, my my wife wouldn't
like that.
That, or my my my mom says thatthat's not the thing you do,
but maybe they don't actuallyfeel something about it the way
that other people would.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
That's interesting.
Yeah, and so the brain scansshowed a difference in these.
Yeah, he was doing functionalMRIs.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think they were functional MRIs, if I recall
this correctly.
Like you can look him up, hisname's James Fallon.
Just type in pro socialsociopaths.
You'll find it Like.
The whole thing was just socool to me that these
differences in brain functioningand the theory that, just like
having a cheerleader and someoneto show you the right path, can
(33:20):
put you down a good road, butwhereas if you're neglected or
rejected or abandoned or abused,you might be going down a
different path.
It's that whole nature nurturething.
I always think everything isepigenetic, which means you have
a set of genes that gives you arange of something, and where
you fall on that range for goodor bad is kind of
(33:41):
environmentally based.
But yeah, I could go on.
This is like a whole otherpodcast and we can just like
minds of serial killers.
It's totally fine.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So I am.
I'm actually one kill away fromthe serial killer Perfect.
I've investigated doublehomicide and the technical
serial killer is three um and soI got to investigate double
homicide my one of my last casesbefore I left yeah um and the I
went to the autopsy, and sothis is a little bit gruesome
(34:10):
here for a second.
But, um, autopsies, um, whenthe cops go, you can make
requests.
Hey, can you put a little extraattention to this thing?
And it's really interesting whatthe coroner does to, or the
medical examiner does to thekiller, because he's being
autopsied next to the.
You know they bring the bodiesat the same time.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
How much attention is spent on him versus how much
attention is spent on the otherperson, and that's, um, on the
victim, um, and so I said, rightas they were about to conclude
her autopsy, um, because ofmurder, suicide.
Um, I said did, can we see ifshe was pregnant?
And they said, yes, I can check.
(34:50):
And they, the look on theirfaces was like, oh my gosh, like
we didn't even consider thatbecause she never talked about
it, we didn't know she was.
But this is one of the this,this particular crime, was a.
If I can't have you, nobodywill right um, and so, as she
was leaving, you know that'swhen he committed the act, um,
and they were able to pull outthose parts and actually examine
(35:13):
them to find out if she was andsee it well and showed me and
said no, she's not.
And I was, like I remember,there for like 30 seconds I was
like how depraved could thisreally go?
Like how much deeper could thisgo?
And like just thinking tomyself like this could have been
, like this could have been evenworse, like it was bad now.
(35:33):
Like, don't get me wrong, likeit was it was bad, but like it
could have been even worse.
Yeah, like it was bad now.
Like don't get me wrong, likeit was bad, but like it could
have been even worse.
Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
The things people do are shocking.
Like I started my career as a,I did some rotations and I
worked in downtown detroithospital and I used to do um
base all kinds of stuff there,yeah psychology, psychiatry
rotation, so they just give youa pager to go fix stuff and like
some of the stuff that I saw,I'm just like how can a person
(36:01):
do that?
You know, mostly to themselvesis what I was seeing, and it was
just like human thoughts and Idon't know the way that you're
just your brains are fascinating.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, you see the other side of that.
There's a bit of compassion Ihave for mental illness.
Um so I was a mental healthofficer um a health investigator
, where every call I had forabout eight to 10 calls a day
was someone who was eitherhomicidal or suicidal.
We were specifically trained todeal with these people and the
amount of people that I saw inthe midst of mental health
(36:36):
crisis that were they were notthemselves.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
No, they're not, they were not.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And seeing that I'm like that's as close and the
things that they do tothemselves and the things that
they do to others and the thingsthat they don't do to
themselves and and don't do toothers, really kind of puts in
my mind like if there was demonsin the world.
This is it right here?
Yeah, because that is not thisnormal person.
Like, I know this person.
(37:02):
I know them when they're ontheir medication, I know them
when they're in in a goodposition and when they're not
and I've dealt with them beforeand this is different- you know
and the things that they do inthose moments.
It really is like it isfascinating the brain chemistry
and how all that works and howwe're just you know, I know
(37:23):
we're getting kind of deep intothis and I kind of come from a
superficial perspective.
You've probably got theexpertise on it, but it's like
we're just bundles of liquid andelectrical impulses and a
little bit of luck and stardustbasically, and that's what makes
us tick and at any point thatcould go off the rails.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You know, and so yeah .
So I mean, I worked like Idon't know how many people I've
talked off the ledge.
It just became an everydaything, right, and and it was a
matter of, like you said, likeintervention.
It's amazing what that wouldthat just be something like my
first.
My favorite line for somebodywho's like in the throes of of
mental health is hey man, what'syour name?
Nobody bothered to ask themtheir name yeah what's your name
(38:06):
?
yeah and just ask, and it'samazing, like how many people
will very quickly snap andthey're just yeah, snap out of
what they're in yeah kind ofcome back towards reality yeah,
that's.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
That's all what we do .
Number one is always ask a name.
Do you know where you are?
What's your name?
Do you know where you are?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
yeah, you know what day it is.
You know, like you know whatday is it, who's the president?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, and then, yeah, some emotion naming you,
look, are you frustrated or likewhat's going on, and then
people will talk like whenyou're just interested in them.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yes, I went to an FBI interrogator school and one of
the one of the one of thetactics that they taught us was
basically during negotiationsand interrogations is how to you
know like hey man, like.
And instead of asking, like heyman, what are you doing today?
You know, what are you doingLike, why are you doing this?
Instead of that, you say roughday, yeah, yeah.
(39:00):
Rough day, yeah.
Just that Cause it showsempathy and it shows that you
care about that person, and it'snot a bad thing to care about
the person that you're trying tohelp.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And and that's the thing I think people kind of
mistake and and I know we'rewe're a little bit off from
where we normally stand, butthat's totally fine, because I
think this stuff is sointeresting and it's human
psychology.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It's in our yeah, you know, there was a huge shift,
like when I first started.
I don't do a ton of therapy, Imostly do diagnosis and then set
people up with services.
But when I used to start, thekind of guidelines on therapy
was like you have to be stoic.
Where that's really shifted Nowit's like no, you need, you
(39:40):
need to connect with people andpeople need to see that you are
also human and if they make youcry, it's okay to cry in therapy
, right.
So there's been kind of a 180on like looking at how do you
help people and I don't thinkyou know being stoic is
necessarily, else is trying tobe stoic, then what?
Why should they waste theenergy talking to you when?
Speaker 1 (40:01):
they can talk to anybody else, Right?
I mean, that's like I had apretty good success rate of
talking people off the ledge andit was only because I like I
walked up there like, not like acop in uniform, I walked up and
they're like a person like.
(40:22):
Hey man what are we doing today,you know, and, but hey, that,
hey, that's um, oh man, the, the, the mental health side of
things, just in from fromentertainment perspective, from,
uh, our movies, from our books,like it really is like the
final frontier of anything ispossible, right?
(40:42):
I mean, I mean, so do you?
Do you try to like dive intothat?
I mean it's your day job, right, so do you write about other
things?
Or do you try to like dive intothat?
I mean, it's your day job,right, so do you write about
other things, or do you kind oflike?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
I don't.
I write a lot about weird brainstuff, like I love to do weird
brains, like this thing can goon but I don't do a ton of like
mental health because, I don'tknow, I don't feel real
comfortable using that forentertainment.
Serial killers are one thing,anything else I'm like, eh, I
don't.
I don't really want tofictionalize that, um, you know,
(41:10):
but I do love doing brains.
Um, I, I do some work withbrain computer interface, so
that that's a whole otherpodcast.
Uh, most people know Mr Musk'sNeuralink, which is the
implantable.
The one that I work with is aheadset.
It's just like a EEG you wearon your head and it listens to
brain signals and so I use itwith kids with neuromotor
(41:32):
disorders who don't havemobility, so they can access
things in their environment,like turning on their YouTube or
turning on their fan whenthey're hot and those types of
things.
Right, Without having to implantit into your spine, correct, I
you know I like something aboutwearable tech that can be
upgraded without opening yourskull.
I'm just going to say that, youknow, I I think it's better.
(41:53):
I mean, there are pros and cons.
You get a little morebackground noise in your brain
when you're wearing the wearableand with an implant, but still
pretty darn effective, you know,and you don't have to risk
terminator style, end of theworld type stuff, correct?
(42:15):
It doesn't emit anything.
It's just literally likelistening to the electrical
activity in your brain throughsaline soaked felt pads and like
that's it.
That's all that's on there andum, I, I am working on
fictionalizing some of thatbecause I'm like this could also
go very wrong.
Yeah, so, with the neural link,more version of it.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
So I would love to write more about that, for sure
yeah yeah yeah, the text out ofthings does, especially as of
late has kind of brought up somenew ideas for things that can
be created and yeah new kind ofhorror yeah, especially when
it's like right in your face,right, yeah, it's like top of
mind everybody's worried about,like ai, yeah, right, and it's
(42:48):
like well, gotta write about itnow like everybody's talking
about it yeah, for sure well itis kind of scary some of the
predictions about what couldhappen with ai so well you know?
yeah, I mean, all we have to dois say, you know, well, funny
story my mom's a flightattendant.
Okay, the name of their systemthat they use is called skynet
oh, oh, no, no yeah exactly I'mlike come on, like airplanes,
(43:09):
skynet, okay, whatever you know.
So I give her hell about Skynettaking over the world.
Well, cool Christine, it hasbeen awesome Like, so much fun
Like.
I don't even care that, like,this is all within the
wheelhouse of things that Ithink the people listening are
interested in.
Cool the people listening areinterested in, and it's so much
(43:30):
fun to bring other minds in andjust to talk about the stuff
that we find interesting whichis, you know, hopefully
relatable to the people wholisten to, because it's, you
know, we're the people that goto sleep listening to forensic
files.
You know like that's.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
That was a fun conversation, so like I really
appreciate you inviting me on tochat.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I appreciate it too, so real quick.
This is the shameless time.
Everybody appreciate it too, soreal quick.
This is the shameless time.
Everybody knows it comes.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So real quick shameless plug.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Let people know where to find you and let them know
if there's a book you think theyshould start with.
They really liked what you hadto say today and, hey, jump into
a book or jump into a shortstory.
Where should they start?
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, so you can find me at christinedegelbookscom.
Degel is D-A-I-G-L-E.
I know that's a weird one, butit's christinedegglebookscom.
My latest book, heavy Are theStones with JD Barker, which, if
you like Seven Silence of theLambs with a high-tech twist,
you're going to like that book.
Other than that, I'm working onthe Flatliner sequel right now
(44:24):
with JD, so that's the nextthing I've got coming out.
Liner sequel right now with JD,so that's the next thing I've
got coming out so you can keepan eye out for that.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
When it's finished, perfect Well, thank you,
christine.
Thank you for your insight andfor the awesome conversation and
for following me down whateverrabbit hole we just happen to go
on on the show.
So it's always so much fun whenit's like this, when it's just
raw and it's unscripted.
So this is unscripted.
Oh, yeah.
But I know, but yeah, so anyways, thank you Christine, thank you
(44:53):
listeners, thank you for yourtime and thank you for your love
from all the way around theworld.
We appreciate you.
This has been another episodeof the Nightmare Ninja podcast.
I'm your host, dave Vergoots,and we're joined today by the
lovely Christine Daigle.
Thank you, everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Thanks.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of
excuse me, another episode ofthe Nightmare Engine podcast.
It's about five o'clock on thelast day of January and it does
not even feel like the last dayof the month.
This month seems like it'd keepgoing, especially with the
weather here in Texas.
This is episode eight orsomething of season three, maybe
I don't know.
It doesn't matter, it justmatters that you were here and
(00:23):
you were listening.
So just a real quick recap onwhat's been going on.
I just got the sound bites backfrom the first audio edition, I
guess you could say, of ScareMail 2, which is called, titled
the Drift.
It's going to be taking placein space.
This is Silence of the lambs,um, uh, meets a space horror.
(00:45):
So, uh, for my friends of fansof event horizon astrophobia, um
, alien, um, if you're lookingto listen to a lady who sounds
just like sigourney weavernarrate these letters, it is
going to be awesome.
Um, besides that, I got somemore requests to focus on um,
another horror book we gotcoming out this year.
It would be my.
(01:06):
I think it would be the thirdone this year Roanoke.
So we had some discussions lastweek with another author in the
previous episode about weirdoccurrences that have no
explanation, how that makesgreat basis for writing horror
stories.
So that's what I got, guys.
Nothing too crazy, justmaintaining things.
I'm back on Facebook, finally.
(01:26):
I never thought I'd say that,but I'm unbanned from Facebook,
but there's some blessings there, and so I'm just really happy
to go back to what I know, goback to what I'm creating and
bring you all along with me.
So I'm very lucky to be in thepresence of Good Company tonight
.
I'm not alone on this show,even though our guest is not
said anything.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd liketo introduce you to Miss
(01:46):
Christine Daigle.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Christine how are you ?
I'm great.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Pretty good considering all things.
I know we were chatting alittle bit before the show, but
a little bit different side ofthe country, the world, than me,
so where are you calling infrom again?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
than me.
So where you calling from again?
Oh, I'm in ontario, southernontario.
I am actually, uh, about 10minutes outside of detroit.
For you folks in the us, I'msouth of detroit, so the journey
song is in fact about me, bornand raised in south detroit and
and so you have snow.
Then oh yeah, it's snowingright now as we speak.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yes, so we had snow in texas, and by snow in Texas I
mean it coated the ground andpeople panic and lost their
minds.
Um, I grew up in on the Eastcoast and so I'm I'm very well
aware of what snow does.
Um, and and for whatever reason, it just makes people lose
their minds.
It's, it's, it's kind ofunbelievable.
I'm not trying to talk aboutthe weather so much as I am
(02:41):
about just the human conditionof like.
There is change and now badthings are happening.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, and you're not used to that down there in Texas
, you're not used to that stufffalling from the sky.
No, no, if it's 105,.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
We got this Like let's go to work, but as soon as
there's a little bit of snow oreven water, yeah.
Well, anyways, so cool.
Well, anyways, so cool.
Christine, I know a bit aboutyou, but I don't think the
listeners do.
And that's okay, because a lotof times we recognize people
based on the book covers ormaybe who we've co-written with
(03:13):
and that sort of thing.
Versus face-to-face, like this,writing's a lonely business.
We don't get to meet peoplevery often.
So, christine, give us a littlebit who you are and what do you
do.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh sure so I'm a writer.
Surprise, you know who you areand what do you do.
Oh sure, so, uh, I'm a writer.
Surprise, shocker.
Uh, I'm a bit of a multi-genrewriter.
So, oh, I've been writing about10 years now.
I guess my first book that cameout I co-wrote, uh, was
steampunk.
And then steampunk yeah, it wasmy.
It was vampires and zombies.
We don't call zombies and youknow, adventure, that kind of
(03:44):
thing.
Uh, I wrote serials for a while.
Pen named did a sci-fi series,did a horror series, uh, for
several years.
And now I am writing darkthrillers with jd barker just
had one come out.
That is kind of a seven meetssilence of the lambs vibe old
(04:05):
school killer meets high-techkiller and bad stuff ensues tell
me it's got like a oh my god,what's in the box?
Speaker 1 (04:13):
moment.
No, there's no what's in thebox, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
There's no such an opportunity yeah, so cool, so
dark thrillers um, is there adifference between a dark and a
(04:39):
light thriller?
Read through them and one ofthem was just like.
I had to put this down becauseit was so visceral and I
couldn't keep going and I'm likeyes, that's how you know you're
reading a dark thriller butdoesn't visceral mean like
relatable, yeah well, I thinkthat there was also something
about violence and gore in there, but we're gonna go with
(04:59):
visceral.
So what?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
so you ask like how, how is this reader relating to
this, if it's so visceral?
And you got like what kind oflife are you living Like lady?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
let's talk, yeah, I know, and I was like great,
because that's your job as awriter.
Right is to create anexperience.
So if I can make someone sosquicked out that they put down
the book, I have done my job.
I was just delighted with thatreview.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, well, very cool, and that's um, so is
that?
What makes Darth Vader a littlebit different thing is just
kind of the relatability to it.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I think maybe the level of, like, uh, violence and
murder, so this one might be alittle.
There's a lot of people die inthis book in some pretty
horrific ways.
Well and hopefully creativeways right yeah, and then you
know, I think just uh, reallycreating some monsters.
I, I know, in horror you haveall kinds of monsters, I think
in thrillers people are themonsters and I've got some, some
(05:56):
pretty significant monsters inthat book yeah, so that's kind
of where the lines blur a littlebit too because, I I wrote a
story um as part of my thesis,and the entire point was to just
have people be the monsters andshow like, yeah, there was a
monster there, but it reallyisn't the bad thing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I mean, think about what happens in every single
zombie movie yeah zombies justkeep people in a close knit
right.
They're just standing at thedoor, you can't leave, and then
it's just what people do to eachother.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
That's awful exactly those are like my favorite
horrors, usually like there arealways exceptions to everything,
but when you don't see themonster, or like all that
tension up until you see themonster.
And then when peoples are, whenpeople are the monsters and
there are other monsters.
That's my favorite.
Like I was just reading adamneville uh, his new book it's
(06:43):
all the fiends of hell and itwas just horrific monsters, but
the people were the worstmonsters.
And that's my favorite kind ofhorror.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, unless you're like M Night Shyamalan and do it
like terribly in the village.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
We won't talk about that.
Because like kudos to the guyfor putting on a cool twist, but
like also not kudos for ruiningit and doing it the worst way
possible yeah, I don't envy himbecause he had such success
early on and you know people arelike, oh my gosh, the twist
with the sixth sense andeverything, yeah, and now I feel
(07:18):
like he has to keep trying totop himself with twists, but
more for the sake of twists andserving the story and I don't
know.
I feel like he's uh needs tobreak out of what he's doing,
maybe a little bit right now.
Maybe do something with lesstwist yeah, yeah, well, and so
it's.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It's taken me a long time to be like really impressed
with like mainstream media anda movie or TV show that was had
that kind of hit you know likereally had that like right in
the middle, mind bender.
You know, I wrote a book likethat and it was like, and it's
called not okay, and it's gotthe biggest like kick I could
possibly come up with and like Iwas really proud of how well it
(08:01):
was executed or how well it wasreceived.
Um, but it doesn't seem to comenaturally.
You know, we really got to kindof push it a little bit and
really build a story around it.
Yeah, you know, I look fortwists like that as more like an
opportunistic thing.
You know, it's like if it suitswhat I'm doing, right?
Yeah, there was a movie I sawlately.
(08:21):
It was called Speak no Evil.
It was played by and I think,based on what you write, I think
you would you would absolutelyadore this movie.
Um, it was played by thecharacter who plays like
professor x in uh, the young inx-men, but the younger version
you know, kind of got long hairbefore.
They were all x-men and charlesxavier and all that.
I can't remember the actor'sname.
I gotta find it um I'm suresomebody's like.
(08:43):
I know that, of course, yeah um,but anyways, in this though
he's like ginormous, like jacked, he's huge, right, and he plays
this character, um, in a frenchcountryside um, that is
basically um, not who he says heis right, and everybody kind of
watches from the exterior,watches this family just kind of
(09:04):
fall into it over and over andover again and watch this
character manipulate this guy,um, this family, to the point
that they're making all thewrong decisions in horror, right
, yeah, and and like hey, weshould split up or hey, we can
just wait another day and leavein the morning.
You know, like all the thingsyou're not supposed to do, and
the entire time you're just likescreaming at the characters
(09:27):
like please do the opposite.
Yeah, exactly, um, and so, likewatching this, I'm like how and
we talked about this last weekand it's just a reoccurring
thought in my head is like howdo we?
How do we keep that going, thatmomentum going, like why do we?
Why do characters always seemto fall into the same traps?
And I think it's probably this,like we said earlier, like the
(09:49):
human condition, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I, you know, I've thought about that a lot and I
think about with horror movies,cause you're screaming at them,
cause you know the trope, right,right, you know if you go into
the basement or you're openingthe door to let the cat outside,
or you know, because you'reprimed see a horror movie, that
something really bad is going tohappen and they should not go
(10:11):
in that basement.
But I'm like, if I was home bymyself and I heard a noise in
the basement, I would probablygo in the basement because I
wouldn't be thinking likethere's a psychopathic killer
down there who's going to cometo get me or whatever.
Right, right, yeah.
So I think it really is a humanthing to do.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, you kind of convince yourself like there
wouldn't be a scary thing,because this is the real world,
right.
Or in the book it's like ah,this is a regular world, there's
not this kind of stuff waitingfor me?
And it inevitably is.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yes, and then you hesitate and no, we're not.
Then you hesitate and no, we'renot gonna.
Okay, we're not going down thatdark path like this can't be
happening.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, it is a movie, while back called nope.
And I wonder if, like theentire movie was basically just
a whole bunch of bad decisionslike that they could have made
and they're like you know what,nope, nope, um, that'd be
interesting last week we talkeda bit, um, talked a little bit
about like cryptids and stufflike up in the mountains, like
and and there was a book I thinkit was called never whistle at
(11:08):
night.
I don't remember who was writtenby, but it was.
I think it was based off likean old belief, and so like I
kind of want to talk a littlebit about that, about about old
beliefs.
You know things that you knowalmost like traditions or things
that you kind of avoid to doingbecause of superstition and
that sort of thing, and I alwaysfind like, if there's a little
bit of truth to that somewhereright, because that's always
(11:30):
what happens with these darkstories there's always a little
bit of truth.
Um, I believe hannibal lecterwas based off a real person.
I just can't remember who hewas.
Um, so that makes it even morescary.
Right is because there is somelevel of truth to these things.
So think about the mothman likeyeah level of truth to the
mothman, somewhere at least alittle bit, you know.
Is there a truth to roanoke?
(11:50):
Is there a truth to any of this?
So like you know that thatwhole theory of like never
whistle at night, you know likewhere did that come from?
So I want to talk a little bitabout if there's any of those
types of weird things that youknow of that you're like you
know, I'm just not gonna do thatthing, I'm not gonna cross this
bridge at night, I'm not gonna.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You know, I'm saying you know I'm not a real
superstitious person, but yousometimes get those hairs on the
back of your neck.
That's like I better listen tothat and and not do that.
Yeah, that kind of thing like,uh, I'm gonna go a different way
than I usually would, or so.
I get those kind of thingssometimes where I'm like
(12:27):
something's just like don't dothis thing the way you normally
would, so I'll avoid things.
I don't know what that is.
I'm a person who'sunapologetically, I'm like I
don't believe in the thing, butI also don't not believe in the
thing sure so when people like,oh, do you believe in this?
I'm like I don't believe in it,but I also don't not believe in
(12:49):
it and I don't want to believein it, because then I'll be
freaked out right, like I know Iwrite horror.
But I am such a baby, like withhorror, like I will have
nightmares after watching horrormovies and after reading books.
I cannot sleep for like ages.
Um, in terms of superstitions,I don't know.
Mirrors freak me out.
(13:10):
I don't know that mirrors dofreak me out I don't know why.
That is especially mirrors inthe dark, like looking in a
mirror in the dark so I got fineI don't like that so I'll share
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's a little on the funny end, but it is still kind
of it, is it?
It it's for sharing.
So, um, my wife and I, we wereboth police officers.
Um we were cops when we met Um.
I'm still a cop, I'm just areserve now I'm full-time
writing Um.
But at one point my wife was uh,clearing a building her partner
she told me the story and I'mlike I could totally see this
(13:43):
because it could totally be athing.
And you know, when you clear abuilding you go through every
room, you know, and yourtension's high and you know your
nerves are going and you gotyour weapon out and you're
trying to protect yourself andwatch everything and see
everything and every littlemovement sticking out.
And you're going through abuilding.
There could be somebody inthere and you don't know what
he's got you don't know if he'seven in there gosh, you know and
(14:19):
don't even realize what you'regetting into yeah you know, and
couldn't even think about itanyways.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, so that was yeah, that's what it is, I think
, like in the dark and any kindof like movement in your
periphery or like behind you.
That really freaks me out.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
It's like you said, like do you believe in the thing
, do you really believe in it,or is it, you know, are you will
, a willingness to have an openmind, to believe in something
and and be like you know what?
as long as I don't keep the dooropen for it, I think I'm okay,
you know yeah I won't put latininto my books you won't put
latin in your books no, I don't,because I believe that latin,
(15:01):
you know, words have yeah, and Idon't want to be saying
something that could potentiallyhave power of any kind, good or
bad, like it's just not, youknow, like I listen to.
I listen like you've watchedthe exorcist movies and the
prayer, the exorcism prayersthat they do Like listening to
(15:23):
that.
That makes the hairs on my, youknow, stand up a little bit
Cause.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I guess to anybody else, when you say that stuff it
, it it's just words, right, butwhen you believe in it, you
know the power, even if it justhas power over you.
Like it's pretty, it's prettycreepy.
Do you believe in likeexorcisms and demons?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
and stuff.
I don't not believe in them,you know.
And, um, I don't not believe inthem.
You know, I grew up in a veryreligious household, so we can
start here um, my, my father'sactually a reverend, uh, so I'm
a preacher's kid whatdenomination uh, so united
church of canada, which is likeprotestant right, okay yeah.
so you know, I grew up with alot of that and with a lot of
(16:04):
people who have a lot of faithin that.
So like doing anything againstthat, yeah, that, like I would,
that would freak me out.
So using that in any kind ofweird way wrote had a lot kind
of explorations of religion andthe different way people
(16:26):
interpret religion to kind of gowith their own beliefs, because
I saw a lot of that growing up,like people would interpret
things different ways to justifydifferent things, some of them
good, some of them not so goodand I'm like, oh, it can be good
and it cannot be good.
But like, yeah, using anythinglike ancient texts like my dad
um had texted in like aramaicand sanskrit and ancient greek
(16:50):
and he read all that kind ofstuff because he was more
interested in the scholarlyaspect of it, that was kind of
his passion.
Yeah, that stuff's.
I don't like.
I don't know what that is.
I'm not saying that out loud,I'm not reading from the book of
the dead or the necronomicon,like that's not, that's not
happening, right yeah, I have nological reason to do it yeah,
(17:10):
no, thank you yeah as soon aswell, because how does the
horror story go?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
it goes like this it's like I don't.
I don't believe in this stuffyeah so let me just go read from
it I'm like what?
No, like.
This is the whole premise isyou don't do it right, and then
cthulhu's there, and then cosmichorror, and yeah okay, so
speaking of cthulhu and yes, andcosmic horror, um, so one of
the craziest things for me isthe, the feeling and realizing
(17:38):
how small we really, really areyeah like the sheer scale of our
worlds is is nothing.
It's a blimp, you know rightit's, it's a blip, it's nothing,
and and I get that feelingwhenever I watch a movie that
has like a black hole in it,right yeah and so I've got this
unnatural fear of black holes,um, and kind of watching what it
(18:00):
looks like when and when yousit there.
If you spend any amount of timethinking about how black holes
work, it's the end of all matter, but it does go somewhere
somewhere that's what's scaryabout it yeah, it's like light
can't even escape, like thinkabout that yeah light can't
(18:20):
escape that.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That whole concept to me is just yeah, it's
mind-blowing Matter, can't bedestroyed, right, so it can only
be changed, and so In a closedsystem.
But, I mean, I guess we wouldargue, the universe is a closed
system.
We would hope it's not an opensystem.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Our brain just explodes as we think about this
stuff.
But yeah yeah, I mean justrealizing how small you are
Right and realizing that likethat thing is so big and
powerful that it destroys light.
I mean that creates like asense in you that you're like
(19:01):
kind of grounds you a little bit, you know, like when I think
when I go swimming in the ocean.
I've got Hawaiian roots, so Ihave a respect for the ocean and
my mom has always taught me torespect the ocean.
I'm a confident swimmer but atthe same time I know that at any
point that if I'm notrespecting the ocean, the ocean
will take me.
There's a lot of things in thatocean that I have faith, that
are not going to kill me just byme swimming around and going
(19:24):
surfing on the beach in Hawaii.
You just kind of hope and pray.
You're going and doing thedangerous activities like
jumping out of an airplane, andyou're like, yeah, I've got a
parachute but I could just notjump out of the airplane.
Parachute, but I could just notjump out of the airplane.
You know, I could go swim inthe ocean or I could just not do
that, you know, because there'sa high risk of death and that
thing is, you know, there is nocontrol over that thing no um
(19:45):
and so yeah, just it's a weirdfeeling when you take a few
seconds and you're just like youthink about things that we do
it is a weird feeling.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Have you ever jumped out of an airplane?
Speaker 1 (19:56):
no, no, it's on my list of things to do.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I have, I have um yeah, skydiving I was younger, I
was in my twenties, right.
So now I'm like, no, I thinkI'm good, I think I like
survival.
But when I was in my twentiesI'm like, yeah, I'll go jump out
of an airplane, and um had doneone.
That is not tandem, so mostplaces will make you strapped to
your first jump out.
And of course, I'm 20 and, like, I have found a place where you
(20:24):
don't have to do that.
They won't strap you, they'lllet you pilot your own shoot
down.
Um, so that was wild.
They they have, uh, two guys goout with you and each one holds
an arm and a leg until theytell you to rip your chute and
then you're on your own, youpilot down, and I really wanted
to do that.
So that's what I did for myfirst jump.
Yeah, I was on a very smallplane, like I was the first jump
(20:48):
of the day, so they put me upwith these two guys and a pilot
and I was the only one jumping,and the plane was smaller than
the other ones where they openthe door and you jump out.
I had to stand on the wheel andhold on to the strut on the
wing with these two other guys.
So it was wild.
But, like I don't know, I thinkwhen you're younger you don't
really understand your mortalityquite as much because they make
(21:11):
you train.
So you have a simulation ofyour chute and you have to train
to untangle your chute in caseyour chute fails.
So you have to go through allthese situations of your chute
failing or tangling where youmight die, before they'll let
you jump out of the plane.
So that for me.
And then I did it anyway.
So I'm like I don't know what'swrong with me that I did that,
(21:33):
but it was fun, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
So like the holding on to you, like my holding onto
your leg or whatever.
Yeah, you know, it reminds meof it.
Reminds me of like hey, um,you're drunk, son, I'll just
follow you home.
Yeah, like that false sense oflike, yeah, I'm protecting you,
like everything's fine, likeyeah.
As long as I follow you, youcrash your car because you're
drunk exactly, exactly it's likethat whole idea, like yeah,
(21:57):
your shoe will be fine as longas you pull it the right time,
because I'm holding your leg yes, I'm holding it.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It was, that was wild , yeah, so, um, I'm not sure
that I would do that now, butI'm glad that I did it yeah,
yeah, there's certain things I'mlike okay, like, but it's so
irrational of me too, I'll belike yeah, I'll go skydiving.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Like yeah, I have no problem, um, but like I won't
get on a train you can'tconvince me to, I won't do it is
that because you have nocontrol?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
is that a control thing?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
no, it's a.
It's a.
It's an irrational fear thingan irrational thing well, I
think it came from a book, uh,from stephen king.
Um, what about his flying train?
I can't remember the name of it, fuck thanks, stephen king.
Scaring people from the darktower series oh yeah it wasn't
eddie the train, but it was theglass bottom train that flies
okay like, like for whatever.
I read that book extremelyyoung and I can't just the whole
(22:49):
idea of the old steamlocomotive anyways, anyway yeah
irrational fear.
I'll jump out of an airplane,I'll go into a building with a
guy with a gun.
I'll do all that stuff, but youknow no trains.
I have another rational oneTornadoes Don't like them and
what's worse is like a roaringtornado, like going by.
(23:10):
Sounds like a train going by.
So that's even worse.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah Well, I'm actually at the end of what they
call tornado alley, so I'mfamiliar.
We'll get them here everycouple years and they do a
little bit of damage.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
So yeah, and you just like build a house in it, like,
yeah, build a house in tornadoalley, this is fine yeah what
are the odds?
It hits my house right, youknow yeah, let's just, let's
just take this gamble, it'll befine yeah you know, um, but yeah
, so like, like, uh, tornadoesthat's a control thing, because
like this, so it's such, so justyou know, so destructive yeah,
and you can't prepare for them.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
There's no warning right, not like hurricanes, not
like um.
You know, they just show up andthen touch down, right yeah and
, and then they leave and it'slike like thanks thank you for
destroying my house yeah, andit's, it's, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's a weird sense with it.
It's a weird sense with uh,with the tornadoes I used to
have to chase them as part of myjob, um, so we'd go and spot
them and I'd oh, wow my patrolcar and I'd get far enough away.
I kind of knew where it was atin the county and I would have
to watch it during the storm.
Now, anything about tornadoesis that, like, even the outlier
around the tornado is veryvicious because of that wind
that's coming in.
(24:15):
So like, even near the tornadoanywhere in that clouded area is
pretty much just tossing yourcar around.
So you know, we were doing thatup in West Texas where it's all
cap rock, so it's, it's thishilly, weird area that's very
volatile for natural disasterand for mudslides and that sort
of thing, just because it's allthis weird stony rock that can
kind of crumble really easily.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
No, thank you.
Pass Zero to 10.
Do not recommend, I do not wantto do that.
We said let's go build on it,right?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Let's go chase the storm.
So when I got up there, theywere like, hey, you're going to
have to we do storm chasing.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
They're like, yeah, person, Igo away from the tornadoes, and
no, you go towards it.
Oh no.
And I'm like I've seen twister.
I'm not going towards it andthey said you are and you know
it's your part of your job.
(25:02):
So so you faced your fears yeah,I faced my fears and I'm still
terrified yeah, do not liketornadoes, no um, you know and
and I don't know, like I saidit's, it's irrational, like I'll
jump out of an airplane, I'llgo in the ocean, um, but I weird
stuff like that.
Yeah, I don't know, like I said, it's, it's irrational, like
I'll jump out of an airplane,I'll go in the ocean, um, but I
weird stuff like that yeah, Idon't think a fear of tornadoes
is irrational, actually yeah, Iguess that's the point.
(25:26):
I mean it's a good point, it's,it is trains.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, I don't know about trains, but the tornado
ones, no, I'll be running theother way too.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Thanks, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah and some anyways.
So yeah, I just I think aboutthese situations, right yeah we
that we write about, we, wewrite about these situations and
we try to make them asrealistic for folks as possible,
like what we think they wouldencounter right.
And so for a lot of people thatis where the fear starts.
(25:54):
And you know, we we relate topeople with that because, like,
anybody is kind of can be afraidof jumping off an airplane
right if you can make that scaryyeah you know, anybody, can you
know if you think about um, thelangoliers by king?
you know those are mini blackholes, these little black thing,
these little fur balls withteeth at eight time, like that's
pretty much a black hole yeah,I mean it's the same thing, and
(26:16):
he just made it really small andmade a whole bunch of them and
I'm like, oh man, like herelated to me on that level,
because that's what I thought ofthese things.
I couldn't relate to what alangolier was, but I could
relate to what I thought alangolier was related to.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
You know, I think that's a keyright is making it concrete and
experiential, so something thatyou can get your hands on in the
real world and you canexperience, or at least imagine
experiencing.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, exactly Like, if it's so unreal, then the
monster is not even scaryanymore.
Whatever that monster thing is,you know, like, after a certain
point, like and I wonder thisyou've written some kind of
serial killer thriller ish.
You know, in the, you know, doyou try to humanize the killer.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
It's probably of course, you have to like your
serial killers.
They're people too.
They're the heroes of their ownstory, that's, they think
they're doing the right thingfor the right reasons that's
exactly right, you know yeahit's like reminds me of dexter
yeah, of course you have to,otherwise they're cartoonish,
right, they're two-dimensional.
If they're, I always like Iknow we're not talking writing
(27:20):
process, but I'm going to talkwriting process anyways, but
I'll spreadsheet, uh, when I'mdoing a revision, and then be
what is my killer doing now?
right right, because that thathas to be driving.
And what are they thinking andwhat is their perspective on
this scene?
Cause they're not just someonethat come in to like, twirl a
mustache and then walk off Evilfor evil's sake, yeah.
(27:44):
They're the other half of thatstory, right, and it's their
story too.
It's not just the protagoniststory, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I think that's kind of the crazier things.
Like I went to Zach baggins'shaunted house um in las vegas
and whether or not it was thereal one or not, it could just
be television, but like they hadI think it was gacy's um
basically giant punch bowl thathe used to boil people in.
(28:13):
Oh, like, whether or not it wasthe real one, yeah, you know
that still would give you likegazey was a monster, right?
yeah but in his mind it wasn't.
He still have a day job as aclown yeah, he was a clown, yeah
, yeah he still had a normal job, yeah right, or normal to a
(28:33):
degree, right, and then at homehe had that big pot of boiling
like, and that's that's.
That's what's scary, rightthat's what's scary is that,
like I think that's probablywhere we get that sense from too
, and you're just like you walkpast somebody and you get a
weird, a weird sense from them.
Like that felt weird.
Like do I really want to beclose to this person, kind of
(28:54):
like, get out of this room rightnow with this person like this
does not?
You know?
There's probably a sense therethat we're just picking up.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, like when
you look, we can get into serialkillers if you want, but, um,
you know how many people werelike, oh, they're a quiet guy,
they're the guy next door,they're a nice, they'd help you
out, you know, yeah, and thenthey're so dark and I mean I
find them fascinating, right,because it's like, and some of
(29:24):
them have wives and families notvery many, uh, female serial
killers, but some, some of themhave husbands and, um, it's just
like, how do you justify this?
Because you have to, like, youhave to be able to justify it,
otherwise you wouldn't be ableto live with yourself, right?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I think a part of them doesn't justify it.
They just kind of ignore thejustification.
They just kind of do.
Yeah so they lack justification.
You know, we, as the normal,regular people, want
justification.
We want them to have any reasonto do this other than because
they can.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
And I think that's probably where the illness comes
from.
You know, that's probably wherethe lack of empathy towards
human life comes from is thefact that they can't Right.
So if you talk about sociopaths, I think it's the sociopaths
that can't feel anything.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, that's interesting.
So my day job I'm aneuropsychologist, so we can
talk about this a little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
We should absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
There was a really, really interesting
neuropsychologist and his namewas James Fallon, not Jimmy
Fallon James Fallon who wasstudying sociopaths and their
brains.
What we know is that when wesee something that should make
us emotional, like a baby cryingor an animal hurt, the emotion
area of our brain lights up likethe amygdala that area, whereas
someone who is a quotesociopath looks at it, they
(30:48):
think about it with theirintellectual areas, their more
frontal areas.
But he was doing this study andhe was also studying dementia
patients and I think.
And then he had scanned hisfamily just to look at their
brains and he's like, oh, one ofthese scans from the sociopaths
got mixed in with my family.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And it was his own brain.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
It was his own brain, yeah, and so it started this
whole thing about yeah, and soit started this whole thing
about pro-social and anti-socialsociopaths.
So some people who have goodinfluences are doing things.
Maybe they don't feel them thesame way as some other people,
but they know that they'reintellectually the right thing
(31:31):
to do and and they are what theycall pro-social sociopaths.
But when you have people maybewho have missed that and what
research shows like is when theyhave nobody who is their
cheerleader or supporting themor showing them pro-social ways,
they can go down really darkpaths.
Um, I get, I get kind of veryinterested.
(31:54):
Yeah, I was watching the Dahmerone and it was like they just
left him on his own, like hiswatching the Dahmer one, and it
was like they just left him onhis own, like his parents
abandoned him for months and itwas like with someone looking
out for him would it have beendifferent?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I don't know they lack so they lack inherently
like a moral compass, right, butthey can watch others and see
reason in their moral compassand adopt it and so they become
a functional sociopath.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, so their morals are more intellectual than
emotional.
If that makes sense, they thinkabout it cognitively.
This is the right thing to do,then be feeling like, oh man,
this would make me feel sadright.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
so they think of it like, hey, I shouldn't murder
this person because I could goto jail and bad things could
happen to me.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
versus yeah, or like you know, my my wife wouldn't
like that.
That, or my my my mom says thatthat's not the thing you do,
but maybe they don't actuallyfeel something about it the way
that other people would.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
That's interesting.
Yeah, and so the brain scansshowed a difference in these.
Yeah, he was doing functionalMRIs.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I think they were functional MRIs, if I recall
this correctly.
Like you can look him up, hisname's James Fallon.
Just type in pro socialsociopaths.
You'll find it Like.
The whole thing was just socool to me that these
differences in brain functioningand the theory that, just like
having a cheerleader and someoneto show you the right path, can
(33:20):
put you down a good road, butwhereas if you're neglected or
rejected or abandoned or abused,you might be going down a
different path.
It's that whole nature nurturething.
I always think everything isepigenetic, which means you have
a set of genes that gives you arange of something, and where
you fall on that range for goodor bad is kind of
(33:41):
environmentally based.
But yeah, I could go on.
This is like a whole otherpodcast and we can just like
minds of serial killers.
It's totally fine.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So I am.
I'm actually one kill away fromthe serial killer Perfect.
I've investigated doublehomicide and the technical
serial killer is three um and soI got to investigate double
homicide my one of my last casesbefore I left yeah um and the I
went to the autopsy, and sothis is a little bit gruesome
(34:10):
here for a second.
But, um, autopsies, um, whenthe cops go, you can make
requests.
Hey, can you put a little extraattention to this thing?
And it's really interesting whatthe coroner does to, or the
medical examiner does to thekiller, because he's being
autopsied next to the.
You know they bring the bodiesat the same time.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
How much attention is spent on him versus how much
attention is spent on the otherperson, and that's, um, on the
victim, um, and so I said, rightas they were about to conclude
her autopsy, um, because ofmurder, suicide.
Um, I said did, can we see ifshe was pregnant?
And they said, yes, I can check.
(34:50):
And they, the look on theirfaces was like, oh my gosh, like
we didn't even consider thatbecause she never talked about
it, we didn't know she was.
But this is one of the this,this particular crime, was a.
If I can't have you, nobodywill right um, and so, as she
was leaving, you know that'swhen he committed the act, um,
and they were able to pull outthose parts and actually examine
(35:13):
them to find out if she was andsee it well and showed me and
said no, she's not.
And I was, like I remember,there for like 30 seconds I was
like how depraved could thisreally go?
Like how much deeper could thisgo?
And like just thinking tomyself like this could have been
, like this could have been evenworse, like it was bad now.
(35:33):
Like, don't get me wrong, likeit was it was bad, but like it
could have been even worse.
Yeah, like it was bad now.
Like don't get me wrong, likeit was bad, but like it could
have been even worse.
Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
The things people do are shocking.
Like I started my career as a,I did some rotations and I
worked in downtown detroithospital and I used to do um
base all kinds of stuff there,yeah psychology, psychiatry
rotation, so they just give youa pager to go fix stuff and like
some of the stuff that I saw,I'm just like how can a person
(36:01):
do that?
You know, mostly to themselvesis what I was seeing, and it was
just like human thoughts and Idon't know the way that you're
just your brains are fascinating.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, you see the other side of that.
There's a bit of compassion Ihave for mental illness.
Um so I was a mental healthofficer um a health investigator
, where every call I had forabout eight to 10 calls a day
was someone who was eitherhomicidal or suicidal.
We were specifically trained todeal with these people and the
amount of people that I saw inthe midst of mental health
(36:36):
crisis that were they were notthemselves.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
No, they're not, they were not.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And seeing that I'm like that's as close and the
things that they do tothemselves and the things that
they do to others and the thingsthat they don't do to
themselves and and don't do toothers, really kind of puts in
my mind like if there was demonsin the world.
This is it right here?
Yeah, because that is not thisnormal person.
Like, I know this person.
(37:02):
I know them when they're ontheir medication, I know them
when they're in in a goodposition and when they're not
and I've dealt with them beforeand this is different- you know
and the things that they do inthose moments.
It really is like it isfascinating the brain chemistry
and how all that works and howwe're just you know, I know
(37:23):
we're getting kind of deep intothis and I kind of come from a
superficial perspective.
You've probably got theexpertise on it, but it's like
we're just bundles of liquid andelectrical impulses and a
little bit of luck and stardustbasically, and that's what makes
us tick and at any point thatcould go off the rails.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You know, and so yeah .
So I mean, I worked like Idon't know how many people I've
talked off the ledge.
It just became an everydaything, right, and and it was a
matter of, like you said, likeintervention.
It's amazing what that wouldthat just be something like my
first.
My favorite line for somebodywho's like in the throes of of
mental health is hey man, what'syour name?
Nobody bothered to ask themtheir name yeah what's your name
(38:06):
?
yeah and just ask, and it'samazing, like how many people
will very quickly snap andthey're just yeah, snap out of
what they're in yeah kind ofcome back towards reality yeah,
that's.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
That's all what we do .
Number one is always ask a name.
Do you know where you are?
What's your name?
Do you know where you are?
Speaker 1 (38:22):
yeah, you know what day it is.
You know, like you know whatday is it, who's the president?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, and then, yeah, some emotion naming you,
look, are you frustrated or likewhat's going on, and then
people will talk like whenyou're just interested in them.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yes, I went to an FBI interrogator school and one of
the one of the one of thetactics that they taught us was
basically during negotiationsand interrogations is how to you
know like hey man, like.
And instead of asking, like heyman, what are you doing today?
You know, what are you doingLike, why are you doing this?
Instead of that, you say roughday, yeah, yeah.
(39:00):
Rough day, yeah.
Just that Cause it showsempathy and it shows that you
care about that person, and it'snot a bad thing to care about
the person that you're trying tohelp.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And and that's the thing I think people kind of
mistake and and I know we'rewe're a little bit off from
where we normally stand, butthat's totally fine, because I
think this stuff is sointeresting and it's human
psychology.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It's in our yeah, you know, there was a huge shift,
like when I first started.
I don't do a ton of therapy, Imostly do diagnosis and then set
people up with services.
But when I used to start, thekind of guidelines on therapy
was like you have to be stoic.
Where that's really shifted Nowit's like no, you need, you
(39:40):
need to connect with people andpeople need to see that you are
also human and if they make youcry, it's okay to cry in therapy
, right.
So there's been kind of a 180on like looking at how do you
help people and I don't thinkyou know being stoic is
necessarily, else is trying tobe stoic, then what?
Why should they waste theenergy talking to you when?
Speaker 1 (40:01):
they can talk to anybody else, Right?
I mean, that's like I had apretty good success rate of
talking people off the ledge andit was only because I like I
walked up there like, not like acop in uniform, I walked up and
they're like a person like.
(40:22):
Hey man what are we doing today,you know, and, but hey, that,
hey, that's um, oh man, the, the, the mental health side of
things, just in from fromentertainment perspective, from,
uh, our movies, from our books,like it really is like the
final frontier of anything ispossible, right?
(40:42):
I mean, I mean, so do you?
Do you try to like dive intothat?
I mean it's your day job, right, so do you write about other
things?
Or do you try to like dive intothat?
I mean, it's your day job,right, so do you write about
other things, or do you kind oflike?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
I don't.
I write a lot about weird brainstuff, like I love to do weird
brains, like this thing can goon but I don't do a ton of like
mental health because, I don'tknow, I don't feel real
comfortable using that forentertainment.
Serial killers are one thing,anything else I'm like, eh, I
don't.
I don't really want tofictionalize that, um, you know,
(41:10):
but I do love doing brains.
Um, I, I do some work withbrain computer interface, so
that that's a whole otherpodcast.
Uh, most people know Mr Musk'sNeuralink, which is the
implantable.
The one that I work with is aheadset.
It's just like a EEG you wearon your head and it listens to
brain signals and so I use itwith kids with neuromotor
(41:32):
disorders who don't havemobility, so they can access
things in their environment,like turning on their YouTube or
turning on their fan whenthey're hot and those types of
things.
Right, Without having to implantit into your spine, correct, I
you know I like something aboutwearable tech that can be
upgraded without opening yourskull.
I'm just going to say that, youknow, I I think it's better.
(41:53):
I mean, there are pros and cons.
You get a little morebackground noise in your brain
when you're wearing the wearableand with an implant, but still
pretty darn effective, you know,and you don't have to risk
terminator style, end of theworld type stuff, correct?
(42:15):
It doesn't emit anything.
It's just literally likelistening to the electrical
activity in your brain throughsaline soaked felt pads and like
that's it.
That's all that's on there andum, I, I am working on
fictionalizing some of thatbecause I'm like this could also
go very wrong.
Yeah, so, with the neural link,more version of it.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
So I would love to write more about that, for sure
yeah yeah yeah, the text out ofthings does, especially as of
late has kind of brought up somenew ideas for things that can
be created and yeah new kind ofhorror yeah, especially when
it's like right in your face,right, yeah, it's like top of
mind everybody's worried about,like ai, yeah, right, and it's
(42:48):
like well, gotta write about itnow like everybody's talking
about it yeah, for sure well itis kind of scary some of the
predictions about what couldhappen with ai so well you know?
yeah, I mean, all we have to dois say, you know, well, funny
story my mom's a flightattendant.
Okay, the name of their systemthat they use is called skynet
oh, oh, no, no yeah exactly I'mlike come on, like airplanes,
(43:09):
skynet, okay, whatever you know.
So I give her hell about Skynettaking over the world.
Well, cool Christine, it hasbeen awesome Like, so much fun
Like.
I don't even care that, like,this is all within the
wheelhouse of things that Ithink the people listening are
interested in.
Cool the people listening areinterested in, and it's so much
(43:30):
fun to bring other minds in andjust to talk about the stuff
that we find interesting whichis, you know, hopefully
relatable to the people wholisten to, because it's, you
know, we're the people that goto sleep listening to forensic
files.
You know like that's.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
That was a fun conversation, so like I really
appreciate you inviting me on tochat.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I appreciate it too, so real quick.
This is the shameless time.
Everybody appreciate it too, soreal quick.
This is the shameless time.
Everybody knows it comes.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
So real quick shameless plug.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Let people know where to find you and let them know
if there's a book you think theyshould start with.
They really liked what you hadto say today and, hey, jump into
a book or jump into a shortstory.
Where should they start?
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, so you can find me at christinedegelbookscom.
Degel is D-A-I-G-L-E.
I know that's a weird one, butit's christinedegglebookscom.
My latest book, heavy Are theStones with JD Barker, which, if
you like Seven Silence of theLambs with a high-tech twist,
you're going to like that book.
Other than that, I'm working onthe Flatliner sequel right now
(44:24):
with JD, so that's the nextthing I've got coming out.
Liner sequel right now with JD,so that's the next thing I've
got coming out so you can keepan eye out for that.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
When it's finished, perfect Well, thank you,
christine.
Thank you for your insight andfor the awesome conversation and
for following me down whateverrabbit hole we just happen to go
on on the show.
So it's always so much fun whenit's like this, when it's just
raw and it's unscripted.
So this is unscripted.
Oh, yeah.
But I know, but yeah, so anyways, thank you Christine, thank you
(44:53):
listeners, thank you for yourtime and thank you for your love
from all the way around theworld.
We appreciate you.
This has been another episodeof the Nightmare Ninja podcast.
I'm your host, dave Vergoots,and we're joined today by the
lovely Christine Daigle.
Thank you, everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Thanks.
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