December 19, 2025 • 46 mins
Strategy should feel like motion, not maintenance. We sat down with two chief strategy officers—Jennifer Riha of I Am Boundless and Ravi Dahiya of YAI—to explore how nonprofits serving people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and behavioral health needs can make disciplined choices amid shifting regulations, payer demands, workforce shortages, and rapid technology change.
We dig into what separates firefighting from future-shaping and why “strategic hibernation” rarely fits health and human services. Jennifer walks us through Boundless’s Vision 2030 process—9,000-plus stakeholder inputs, market scans, and benchmarking—and explains why the organization chose capabilities over project lists: integrated care, resilient teams, data fluency, and operational reliability. Ravi shares how culture and middle management stabilize YAI through leadership transitions, and how pilots, tele-crisis services, and proactive advocacy can convert unmet needs into reimbursable models that scale across states.
You’ll hear concrete tactics for navigating political volatility with scenario planning, reading early policy signals, and protecting assets that matter no matter who’s in office. We also tackle the toughest questions leaders avoid: Can this program become financially sustainable? Are we uniquely positioned to do it well? What will we stop so we can invest where demand and impact are strongest? Along the way, we highlight workforce design moves—flexibility, supportive supervision, and career pathways—that matter as much as wages in a tight labor market.
If you lead a nonprofit and feel stuck in reaction mode, this conversation offers a clear path to regain focus, align teams, and build services that endure. Follow the show, share this episode with a colleague or your board chair, and leave a review to help more leaders find it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
I think recently sent me a strategy article
that's in my head for a fewweeks.
It asked for this the moment forstrategic hibernation preserve
their core assets, reduce theirexposure.
If you work in health and humanservices, can you really afford
(00:23):
the hibernate?
Or is it better to movesomething else entirely?
Something like protecting yourcore strength, probing the
market, and when the timing andtechnology are right.
Today we're asking the questionevery nonprofit leader needs to
(00:44):
be asking right now.
What's your next move?
Welcome everyone to thenonprofit leaders.
And yes, even a roadmap in amoment of incredible
(01:07):
uncertainty.
So that's what we're talkingabout today.
And today I'm talking about twomore remarkable strategists and
real leaders out there in thisspace.
Jennifer Riha is Chief StrategyOfficer at I Am Boundless,
serving children, adults,families with intellectual and
developmental disabilities, andbehavioral health needs across
Ohio.
(01:28):
Hi, Jenny, good to see youagain.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Great.
Thanks for having me, Scott.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
Ravi Dahia is Chief Strategy Officer at YAI, a
nationally recognized nonprofitserving people with IDD since
1957 with all kinds of programsthat are grounded in
independence, opportunity, andinclusion.
Ravi, it's good to have youhere.
Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Thanks for having me, Scott.
Jen.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Jennifer, I'd like to start with you.
And we'll do a kind of a coupleof rapid fires.
I want to get your brains goinghere out of the gate.
In a sentence, how would youdefine strategy in today's
health and human servicesenvironment?
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Well, in a sentence, it's a tall order.
So I'm going to give it my bestshot, but I've been thinking
about this.
So I would define strategy asthe disciplined choice of where
to focus and how to mobilizepeople, resources, and
partnership to really create theimpact for the people that we
serve.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Robbie's already nodding out of the gate here.
Ravi, do you want to take a shotat that one?
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yeah, I couldn't say it any more better, but I think
it's one thing I would say isstrategy is about shaping the
future about participating in itrather than the future shaping
you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Kind of lightning around here out of the gate.
Another quick rapid fire.
What's one strategic assumptionthat you think nonprofit leaders
need to re-examine and maybere-examine it pretty
immediately?
Ravi, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
The one common mistake which I see, and I've
seen it in our organization, isa plan is not a strategy.
It is, as Jennifer said, it's aseries of choices one makes.
So I think that is somethingwhich most leaders need to begin
thinking about.
SPEAKER_02 (03:12):
That is a great way to just jump into this entire
conversation today.
I mentioned an article in whatwe called our cold open of the
podcast of this particularepisode.
And the article I mentioned usesthe term strategic hibernation.
And they use it this way, quote,quietly preserving internal
(03:33):
capacities while reducingexternal exposure, end quote.
It's an approach that some banksand tech firms have used in
chaotic moments, but akin toboth of you.
And health and human services,the market doesn't pause, right?
Regulations are shifting,payors, you know, raise
expectations.
Technology is alwaysaccelerating, workforce
(03:55):
capacity, that's always anissue.
It's changing month to month.
So, Jennifer, how do you helpyour teams distinguish true
strategy from kind of the dailyfirefighting?
SPEAKER_03 (04:05):
You know, I see firefighting as being focused on
restoring and stabilizing today.
Strategy is about shapingtomorrow.
And so in health and humanservices, we don't have the
luxury of strategic hibernationbecause, as you said, the needs
of the people we serve, theydon't pause.
Regulations evolve, payers raiseexpectations, technology shifts.
(04:27):
And I do know that it's easy toget sucked into firefighting,
but I would really encourage,and I do this with my own teams,
is encourage them to askthemselves some questions.
And it's really does thisdecision or this thing that
we're doing change ourtrajectory, or is it just
maintaining the status quo?
Like I said, firefightingstabilizes, but strategy is
(04:49):
going to alter the trajectoryand really shape where you're
going tomorrow.
And then are we responding tosymptoms or root causes?
Because I think a lot of ourfires are caused from not really
addressing the root causes.
And if we take the time or canfind the time to be focused on
strategy, it should result infewer fires that have to be put
(05:10):
out in any given day.
And then does this matter in sixmonths?
And if the answer is yes, thenthat probably is something
strategic.
But it really is hard to createthat discipline to stay or find
that time to be focused onstrategy because I'm not in any
way saying the fires aren'treal.
And it really is a pit for somany leaders to fall into to get
(05:35):
sucked into that firefightingall day, every day.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
You know, I I just want to bring it back to our
organization.
We just lost our CEO to he to anillness, and he was a young man
who passed away over the summer.
That was a shock to our system.
So there was, we had to, if youwant to call it hibernation or
whatever, we had to stop andtake stock and grieve and
(06:02):
support each other and reallythink about ourselves and by,
but we can't forget about thepeople we support.
So do you want to call thathibernation?
Do you want to call it whateveryou want?
But that is a naturalconsequence when somebody or
some organization does undergosomething like that.
(06:26):
But at the same time, I thinkJennifer is absolutely right.
And the article also, and Iremember reading that when it
came across my uh my screen,things are changing out there.
We still have to keep engaged,we still have to keep an eye out
on what's happening with theSNAP benefits, with you know,
all of these things which havean impact on what the
(06:49):
organization does.
You can't ignore or turn a blindeye to those.
So yes, it's hibernation, butthe hibernation is more about us
pausing because there will be achange in leadership.
There will be some time beforewe come to terms with what
exactly happened in theorganization, what are the
long-term strategic goals?
(07:11):
Now, our strategic plan was from2023 to 2026.
So we've still got a year to gothrough.
Our acting CEO and I just satdown and did a scorecard of
where we are right now.
There were some greens, therewere a lot of yellows, and there
were some reds in there, thingswe need to get better at.
(07:31):
But that was us still takingstock of where we are.
Um, but at the same time, werecognize that we have to begin
looking, not two to three yearsdown the road from 2026.
And I think, you know, Iactually lord what Boundless is
doing with the Vision 2030 planfive years from now.
I think that's really a goodhorizon to be thinking about
(07:54):
where do you want to be fiveyears from now?
And that is what probably we'llend up doing as we go through
the next year, taking stock ofwhere we are, seeing how the
leadership settles, where theteams are, and then think about
where we want to be five yearsfrom now.
So when I think about strategichibernation, yes, at different
(08:15):
times, different organizations,teams, people might need to just
stop for a minute and reassesswhat their goals are, what the
fires they're turning burningout right now, but not forget
where we need to be.
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
You know, I had a maybe, maybe it's my own little
light bulb here.
You guys tell me if this isrelevant, but but thinking about
this, my mind went to COVID.
Didn't we all have to hibernatemaybe just a little or maybe a
lot for some folks and for someorganizations?
I that was looking back, maybethat was a form of strategic
(08:49):
hibernation for a little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
You know, Robbie, listening to you, I'm struck by
whether or not a pause, anintentional pause, is the same
thing as hibernation, andwhether there's maybe even um
grades or sort of um a spectrumof sort of fully hibernating
(09:12):
versus taking a pause tointentionally reset.
And then I also think, Scott,when we you talk about COVID,
the reality is there areorganizations that came out of
COVID stronger, there wereorganizations that came out of
COVID weaker, there wereorganizations that came out of
COVID behind.
And so even when the world maybeforces a pause on you or forces
(09:38):
some level of hibernation, Ihesitate to think we can make
the choice to say we're gonnafully hibernate, we're gonna go
to sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
No, I I agree with Jennifer.
I think COVID, Scott, when youtalk about it, I I think I don't
think I've ever worked harder inmy life than during that time.
I'll I'll be honest.
I used to be exhausted by theend of the day after having uh
so many meetings, so many Zoomcalls, you know, pretty soon in
New York, since we got hit withthe first wave pretty early.
(10:08):
A lot of us got sick right inthe beginning, um, dealing with
the emotional grief which peoplewere dealing with, but yet at
the same time, we couldn't stop.
So all of that was happening inthe first three or four months.
But in the subsequent years, andI think Jennifer, to your point,
is there was more of a need forour services than less.
And I think there were someorganizations which probably
(10:30):
said no, but we leaned in.
And that is the time we saw thebiggest growth in some of our
programs outside of New York,actually, than we ever did
before.
And we as an organization leanedinto that growth and I believe
came out stronger, as Jennifersaid.
SPEAKER_02 (10:48):
I think about Ravidi, your point amid the
devastation and the illnessesand the deaths from COVID.
I do think there was a a largerpermission structure that was
that was put in society and inAmerican society specifically to
talk more about mental health,talk more about self-care.
(11:12):
To talk more about checking onour neighbors and our family
members and and our co-workers,our colleagues.
How are you doing?
And to both of your points,those are positives.
Those are positives and thoseare impacts that are that are
lasting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
You know, it's and I don't know about you, Jennifer,
at Boundless, uh, but at leastat YI, the programs which
integrated mental health and IDDservices saw a rapid expansion
in many parts of New York State,California, and New Jersey,
which is the three states we dowork.
And it was because it had themental health component in it.
(11:50):
People started recognizing thatthat is something which was
ignored before and now peoplewere accepting.
And I think COVID did haveprobably a greater awareness on
part of policymakers tounderstand that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:06):
Absolutely.
If there is a silver lining tobe found, it is that definitely
that reduction of stigmabroadly, but then also the
realization and reduction of I'dsay maybe blindness to the idea
that people with IDD also haveemotions and experience mental
health conditions and mentalhealth uh concerns.
And I agree with you, theprograms that we offer that
(12:29):
integrated those and braidedthose together absolutely grew
the fastest during the COVIDyears.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
Let me ask a level set question for both of you.
Jennifer, here at Boundless, um,what are what are the top
pressures right now that thatare that are shaping strategy,
not just right now, but but inthe you know near term and and
long-term future?
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
I'm gonna say the top pressures that we are facing
are first probably changes andeven say rising expectations
from payers and regulators.
So we see pushes forimmeasurable outcomes,
integrated care, real-time data,and that's not someday, that's
right now.
And for a multi-serviceorganization like ours, that
(13:12):
really translates into pressurewhere we need to align our
clinical models, be investing indata systems, and demonstrate
consistency across programs.
I'd say we can't overstate theimpact of workforce volatility.
So the reality is workforce ischanging month to month, not
(13:32):
year to year.
And so we have to keep constantattention on that.
And programs that are fullystaffed today may not look that
way tomorrow or the followingmonth.
So we've been having to put alot of investment and attention
to our recruitment pipelines,how we train, how we retain
people.
And then the other thing I wouldsay we're paying attention to,
(13:54):
and I'm not sure any of us Iwould say are mastering this,
but definitely paying attentionto it and investing in is the
rapid acceleration of technologyin healthcare.
So whether we're talking aboutAI, virtual care, remote
monitoring, technology isreshaping the expectations both
from families and individualsthat we're serving, but also
(14:16):
from payers and regulators.
And so if we don't build thatdigital fluency, and I don't
just mean tools, but I mean theprocesses and the culture for
our staff to be able to supportand use technology, I believe we
risk being left behind theproviders who can integrate
that, who can deliver carethat's more coordinated, more
(14:38):
transparent, more measurable.
And so when I think about themajor pressures on us, those are
the things that I believe Balmusand quite frankly, all
organizations doing this workneed to find a way to invest in
and need to find the time tofocus on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
You know, Scott, I've been doing this work for 30
years, and I don't recall asingle time when I haven't heard
workforce is a challenge.
I don't recall a single singletime when they don't say that
payments and the rates are notadequate.
And it's almost, I want to justtake it back to the hibernation.
I, you know, these are pressureswhich have always existed, and
(15:16):
we had to, this is what is thefoundation in terms of this is
the world we are living in andworking in.
So, how do we adapt?
How do we keep working?
Although regulations arechanging, there's uncertainty,
and people use the term VUCA,right?
I mean, I'm sure you've heardthat in plenty of places
(15:37):
volatile, uncertain,complicated, ambiguous times.
Was there ever a time which itwasn't?
Is the question I ask.
If that is the case, and if thathas always been a constant, it
is up to us as leaders to workwith our teams to find a way of
(15:57):
knowing that is a constant, howare we going to succeed?
What if these are pressures, arethese also opportunities at the
same time?
Because can we then adapt pivotto incorporating those within
our service lines so that westill deliver the same outcomes
(16:17):
to what we do?
Like, for example, we work insome very remote parts of New
York and California doing crisiswork.
Can our staff get there in time?
No.
So we have to use remotetelehealth services and convince
the states to pay us for thoseservices, which were not doing
it in the past, because if theydon't, those folks are not going
(16:40):
to get the services and they'llend up in their hospitals and
ERs.
So what's better for them?
Pay us for it.
So we have to make the case.
But I think those are the placeswhere organizations like
Boundless, who've been leadingthis charge and YI can discuss
these policy matters with thestate officials and people who
(17:02):
are in charge so that theregulations can be shaped rather
than us being saddled byregulations, which then we
complain about.
And I think that's whatorganizations like ours tend to
do all the time, is how we thereat the table to help get the
best outcomes for the people wesupport.
SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
So, Ravi, uh, it reminds me of what you said in
the beginning, where strategy ismaking sure that we are shaping
the future and we are impactingthe tomorrow we want to have,
not letting it be happening tous.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Right.
No, agreed.
I mean, that's where we you haveto be listening and seeing.
It starts with what the needsare, really, right?
And many a time the regulationsare slow to catch up.
How do we then work with thestate to make the regulations do
pilots, for example?
I know that is something which Iknow we'll talk about a bit
later, doing pilots and showinghow effective they are.
(17:59):
That is exactly how we got intoCalifornia.
We did a pilot in the in the SanJose area about a mental health
crisis program, which now hasexpanded across the state of
California.
So, how do we take those, seethose opportunities and jump on
them rather than waiting forthem to come to us and then
forcing us to adapt to them?
SPEAKER_02 (18:19):
Boy, you both teed up the next question I had on my
list.
And again, a few notes from thatfrom that same article that
we've been referencing.
And that is the political risksout there.
Uh Ravi, to your point, therepolitics is always going to
change from at the local level,at the state level, different
governors, different presidents.
It's always going to change.
(18:40):
So how do you both factor inthose political and and
regulatory volatilities, plural,because it is plural, how do you
factor those into your strategicplanning?
SPEAKER_03 (18:53):
You know, I would say we can't control the
political environment or thepolitical volatility, but we can
control our readiness.
And so the the things that Iwould we've put a lot of time
into certainly now, but Ravi, toyour point, this isn't the first
time there's been politicalvolatility.
So we do scenario planning.
(19:14):
Earlier this year, when therewere lots of questions around
what was going to happen toMedicaid, we did a number of
different models looking atplausible outcomes and what
would the impact of boundless beif this happens.
What did the impact of boundlessbe if that happens?
The other thing I think is soimportant is to protect the
(19:35):
assets that remain valuableregardless of politics.
And that's having really strongclinical models, a resilient
workforce, technologyinfrastructure, trust and
relationships with your payersand your communities.
It doesn't matter who's inoffice, it doesn't matter what's
happening politically, if you'reprotecting those assets that
(19:56):
you're going to need no matterwhat.
And then the other thing I wouldsay, and you mentioned this a
minute ago, Ravi, is payingattention, watching for the
signals early.
So that includes looking at thesmaller indicators, like what
are the draft rules, what arethe rate notices, what kind of
conversations are happening inthe committees where they're
(20:17):
talking about waivers, what kindof pilots are happening, what
kind of federal guidance memosare coming out, and really
making sure that you'remonitoring, paying attention to
those so that you're prepared tomove before the change becomes a
mandate and you're being forcedto be reactive.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
You know, Jennifer said it so well.
Political uncertainty has beenthere ever since I recall
whether the rates are high, therates are low.
I don't think, you know, just asidebar, there are people
sometimes which come and work inour line of work and they've
come from the private sector.
(20:54):
And the first thing they ask is,well, your costs are going up,
why can't you increase prices?
And well, if it was that simple,that's why it is difficult,
complicated work out here.
We have to work within theconstraints what we have.
So doing those pilots, listeningto the signals, as Jennifer
mentioned, the amount of pilotsI have sitting on my desk,
(21:17):
they're just piling up thosepilots.
And many of them probably didn'tadvance past the policy maker we
were dealing with, but each ofthem had nuggets which we could
take to really make a successfulprogram somewhere else because
we had thought given it sometime and thought.
And those failures of whethergetting those pilots adopted
(21:42):
helped us really design theprogram which the policymakers
were thinking of in the nextadministration.
And I think every administrationhas its priorities, but on the
ground, nobody wants people withdisabilities to be heard,
irrespective of who's in power.
And I think that is somethingwhich we can always lean into as
(22:05):
organizations to really advanceuh what we have to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Let me ask a couple of follow-ups when it comes to
strategy and maybe give ourlisteners some real practical
takeaways here.
Balance has just completed amajor strategic planning process
to define our vision through2030, why AI is navigating one
of the most complex servicemarkets in the entire country.
(22:30):
So, again, let's dive into thata little bit.
And Jennifer, I'll start withyou.
How how did you approach this2030 vision process?
Who was involved?
How'd you gather insights?
And what mattered most?
SPEAKER_03 (22:41):
Yeah, so this was actually the most extensive and
in-depth strategic planningexercise that Boundless has ever
engaged in.
And the reason is as I look outover 2025 to 2030, 2035, I don't
believe that Boundless or anyorganization can afford to plan
in an echo chamber.
(23:03):
I don't think that we have theluxury of hearing what we want
to hear and seeing what we wantto see.
So we really went all in onputting together a process that
we hoped was going to get usreally good objective insight
and feedback.
So we solicited over 9,000stakeholders for inputs, people
(23:23):
we serve, employees, familymembers, guardians, payers,
community partners.
We even had industry expertsthat we reached out to to say,
have you ever heard of us andwhat do you know about us?
And then we commissionedenvironmental and market scans,
we did listening sessions andfocus groups all over the state.
We did a full slot, we had anoutside firm do a full slot
(23:45):
analysis on how we run ourbusiness.
We commissioned benchmarkingagainst our peers across the
sector, really trying to makesure that we were getting macro
level signals, but then alsodirectly hearing ground level
truths.
And we can't predict what thefuture is going to look like,
(24:07):
but we can build an organizationthat's prepared no matter what
that ends up looking like.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
And Jennifer, what surprised you from all of those
insights you gathered?
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Well, the first thing I would say is be careful
what you ask for.
If you ask people for their realopinions, you better be prepared
to hear them.
It was really, really a greatexperience.
There were so many stories thatcame out of it of the impact
that our employees have had onthe um families and the
individuals that we serve, andthen even impact across the
(24:40):
sector, other providers aresaying, you know, this is
something I heard you speakabout, and we started a program
like that, and it's having animpact in our community.
And so it really was anincredible process.
But a couple of things thatstood out.
One, the appetite for integratedcare was stronger than we
expected.
Um, you might know, Scott orRavi, I think I've mentioned
(25:00):
this to you too, that we haveintegrated health care.
So we have primary care,dentistry, those things in one
part of the state.
And I'll tell you, the feedbackfrom the rest of the parts of
Ohio was not good.
They're pretty jealous, Scott,of why do you only offer that
one place?
And why is it taking you so longto get these services in our
communities?
(25:21):
We need them too.
That was a we thought that thatwas a long-term plan.
We heard it needed to be a muchshorter-term plan.
Um, the other things we heard isthat our workforce really is
looking for things likeflexibility, supportive
supervision, career pathways,and that in some cases that's as
(25:42):
important as wages.
So it's really forced us to takea step back and look at how are
we making sure we're a greatemployer?
Because we all know it.
If we don't have the workforce,we can't provide services.
It we're a human providing humanservices sector.
Um, the other things we heardfamilies want more digital
(26:05):
access, transparency choice.
They told us repeatedly we arenot great at communicating, so
we needed to do a lot betterwith that, and that's part of
the new strategy.
Some of the other things weheard was um stakeholders told
Boundless that we needed toactually play a bolder role than
we anticipated.
(26:26):
We've done a lot of work aroundgovernment relations and
advocacy just here in the last18 months, and the level of
feedback we got around that workwas very surprising of people
saying, We see it and we reallyappreciate it, but by the way,
you're still not doing enough ofit, and we want to be even more
involved in it.
(26:46):
So it was really an incredibleexperience to hear from people
where they see what we're doingworking, where they see what
we're doing as not fully gettingthere and where we need to do
better.
It was a it was a greatexperience being able to get
that feedback and people feelingthat they trusted us enough to
be honest and to say this iswhat we really think.
SPEAKER_02 (27:08):
I'm gonna mirror those same questions, Robbie, to
you in just a second.
But Jennifer, one more to youregarding Boundless in this 2030
plan.
So, from all of those inputs andthen the surprises thrown in
there as well, what did youdecide on?
What did you and the team decideon to say, hey, this is where
we're going to invest?
And maybe in a couple of theseother areas, we're going to pull
(27:30):
back.
SPEAKER_03 (27:30):
For I think every nonprofit on the planet, that
second part is the hard part.
Where do we need to pull back?
Where do we need to pause?
Where do we possibly even needto stop?
Um, so ultimately, when wecreated the plan, and our board
actually just approved the newfive-year plan a little over a
month ago, we focused oncapabilities, not projects.
(27:55):
So we did not list out 50initiatives or 50 projects that
we're going to get done in thenext five years.
We really zoomed in on what arethe capabilities that this
organization needs to be what weneed to be in five years.
And so that's things like thatcommitment to integrated care
and interdisciplinary teams,building a resilient workforce,
(28:19):
having our operations and ourbusiness be efficient, be
reliable, be consistent, datafluency.
And so focusing on thecapabilities gives us that
flexibility for the tactics toevolve and respond to what's
happening in the environment.
But those capabilities are whatwe're going to need no matter
what the tactic is.
(28:40):
We also built in checkpoints.
We've implemented some reallystrong practices here recently
around an annual replan thatdoes have the conversation about
the tactics and the specificinitiatives.
But then we're doing it everyquarter.
We call it now quarterlybusiness review.
And every division, everyprogram, every department is
(29:02):
sitting down and saying from afinancial perspective, from a
mission perspective, from what'shappening in the market
perspective, here's the updateon mine for the quarter, here's
the shift we need to make sothat we're getting really tight
on our processes to say we'reconstantly evaluating.
Do we need to pause?
Do we need to stop something sothat we can invest somewhere
(29:25):
else?
And that's really the trade-offthat we're having to make.
And even though it's hard, Ithink we have to keep
emphasizing with our team, withour leaders, it's so we can have
the impact that we all want tohave.
We've got to have the resourcesto invest in the things that are
working.
And that does mean we've got tostop and pause other things.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
Okay, Ravi, we'll come to you.
And how are you getting yourinputs um to mold your strategic
plan?
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
By the way, just to reflect on what Jennifer just
said, focus.
Focusing on capabilities.
That is so insightful.
I'm stealing that, Jennifer.
I am running with that.
That was fantastic, though whatyou just said.
So thank you.
I will definitely be uh givingyou a call.
Um so we I think too whatJennifer said is we are coming
(30:18):
to an end to our three-yearplan.
I do think how Boundless isapproaching its future over the
five years is I commend them.
It is trying to shape thefuture.
The three-year plan sounds morelike these are the projects we
want to get done and let's dothem.
I think the five years positionsBoundless to be in a place where
(30:42):
they want to be focusing on thecapabilities.
So kudos to them.
Uh, we are coming to an end,like I said, for a three-year
plan.
We just did a scorecard.
Um, some of the things we arerealizing is obviously the
workforce is a challenge, alwaysbeen a challenge, but I predict
based on everything which isgoing on in the world right now,
(31:03):
and given where the demographicsare going, the workforce
challenge is just gonna get moreand more exacerbated.
And it is, we have so manypeople with dis intellectual
disabilities living at home withthe caregivers, and the
caregivers are aging, they'regonna need services.
There's the same person whomight be helping the person with
(31:24):
an intellectual disability, buttheir parents also need the
help.
Now, again, I I think I'm justprobably just free thinking this
right now, but we have a lot ofour programs in bricks and
mortar right now.
Probably 60% of our revenuescome from there.
Um they are very labor-intensiveprograms.
(31:48):
My suspicion is as we take stockof where we are right now and we
think about what happens from2026 onwards, and hopefully our
executive team and the boardwill say, let's think about five
years from now where we want tobe, it would make sense for us
to think where do we, what areour capabilities, as Jennifer
(32:10):
said, what are the where are theneeds, where are the dollars for
this?
And how do we start turning YI,the Titanic VR across three
states, focusing on where theneeds are, and that will require
us to do exactly some of thethings and I what Boundless has
(32:31):
done, and I'm taking notes rightnow as to what they did.
So uh, but that is a great wayof approaching it, a much more
in-depth look and involvingpeople because strategy at the
end of the day is about people.
Yes, we'd like to think it'sabout an organization, it's
about how the organizationrelates with the people it
(32:53):
supports and how people who areemployed within the organization
work with each other.
As somebody said, you know,there are lots of people who
said this, and I'm this I'm notthe first one to say it.
Culture will eat strategy forbreakfast, lunch, dinner, any
day.
So if you don't take this intoaccount as to what the
organization will do, it wouldresult in failure, and it'll be
(33:17):
a binder sitting on some desksomewhere which nobody even
looks at.
And I think that is a challengefor us to think about as we move
into the next uh strategicplanning process.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Ravi, I also wrote down focus on capabilities as
well.
And I loved your verbiage whenyou said you're gonna steal
that.
I'm a firm believer, you know,amateurs borrow ideas,
professionals steal them.
And I and I don't I I don't hideit.
I am a professional ideastealer, and that's okay.
(33:47):
That is okay.
What were your surprises,Robbie, from again from all
those inputs you were gettingabout your plan?
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
One of the things I think there's no doubt that a
middle management is thestrength of YI.
It's the core.
It the culture which has existedat YI is that band of managers
who've been here and speak theYI language.
And I always, and I worked atdifferent organizations and I've
(34:17):
come here to YI and I realizethere is a specific language
people use when they're talkingto each other.
Uh we use the word people wesupport, PWS, all the time.
And that establishes therelationship which our staff
have with the people in ourprograms, that we are there to
support them.
It establishes the hierarchythere.
(34:39):
And those subtle indicators tellme that that culture is so
strong across our middlemanagers that no matter the
change we are going through atthe top level right now, because
of what happened to our previousCEO, we will come out stronger
because our middle managers arethe backbone of this
(35:00):
organization.
And that is something whichgives me so much hope.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
Let's come back to that lightning round.
That's kind of where we started.
And I've got a few questionshere as we start to uh wrap up
our conversation.
Jennifer, what would be justsome simple but really good
advice you would have for afellow nonprofit leader out
there?
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
So, what I would offer is some questions that may
not be fun to ask, but I thinkare really important in today's
environment.
So the first one that I wouldsuggest is forcing yourself to
ask the question is thisfeasible with the workforce we
actually have, not the workforcewe wish we had.
(35:40):
Even if the answer is no, I amnot suggesting you should
abandon the impact you hope tohave.
But you may need to abandon theship you thought you were gonna
use to get there.
It doesn't mean you give up themission, it doesn't mean you say
we're not going to have thatimpact in the world, but you may
need to say this isn't the waywe're gonna be able to do it,
(36:03):
because to Ravi's point, I ahundred percent agree.
The workforce we have today isprobably the best it's gonna
get.
We need to get really good atserving even more people with
the workforce we already haveand maybe even fewer.
The second question I wouldsuggest that is tough, but I
think we all need to be askingis is there a viable path to
(36:27):
financial stability?
If a program, if a service, ifan initiative cannot achieve
financial sustainability andresilience, even if you make
some improvements and tweaks,we've got to question whether or
not it it can continue to belongin our plan or in our strategy.
(36:49):
One of the things we talkedabout uh here recently is
funding programs is never easy.
It's always painful to decidewe're gonna stop doing this
program.
But the truth is sometimes thecommunity and the individuals
you're serving tell you that aprogram isn't having the same
impact or doesn't culturallyalign anymore.
(37:11):
And they tell you that notverbally, they tell you that
with their feet in theirwallets.
When you don't have the demandfor a particular program or
service in a part of the stateor in a region, uh you have to
ask the question of whether ornot what you're offering is what
people want.
And if we can't come up with apath to financial
sustainability, then we reallydo need to be rethinking whether
(37:34):
these are programs and serviceswe can keep offering.
Then the final one is that weask is Is balance uniquely
positioned to do it well?
We talked about this earlier,Ravi.
We are really leaning into whereour integrated IDD behavioral
health healthcare model gives usa distinctive advantage and
(37:56):
deprioritizing areas wherebalance might not be the right
fit.
We are not everything toeveryone, and that is okay.
And so we need to be investing.
I think all organizations needto be investing where the
mission, the market, and theirunique strengths intersect.
We've got a pause work thatmight have been good, but it's
(38:18):
not strategic because it's notfinancially sustainable.
The workforce we have does notallow that model to really be a
model for the future.
And we need to be willing tostep away from things that
distract us or hold us back frombuilding those capabilities that
the future demands.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Robbie, best advice that you have for a nonprofit
leader that's maybe listening inhere.
SPEAKER_01 (38:40):
So I heard the statement the other day, and I
thought this was a fantasticstatement.
Ask the right question or yourisk solving the wrong problem.
I think that's yeah, I wish Ihad come up with it, but I don't
think I yeah, I actually even ifyou are asking the right
question and you may not havethe right solution, at least
(39:01):
tells you what you need to do.
Maybe it is, and you may havethree choices in my mind right
now.
One is to cut back, containcosts so that you might be
financially stable.
I think that is probably as anorganization, that may be the
closest it comes to ahibernation strategy, but that's
(39:22):
a short-term strategy.
The second way I would say isstart looking at your programs
where you can contain costs andalso where you can get more
efficiencies so that they can bemoney-making programs.
And then the last one is, and Ithink this is where Boundless is
probably thinking about this iswhere do you invest in what
(39:44):
lines and what capabilities sothat five years from now you are
ready to take advantage ofwhat's the landscape will be.
And I think that kind of ananalysis would be good for us
and for any organization to takeinto account.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
That's excellent, Robbie.
Um, a couple of quickies here.
What give me one word that youwant nonprofit leaders to
associate with strategy?
Robbie, how about one wordthere?
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Strategy in my mind has to be inspiring.
Otherwise, who will want to comeand work for you?
You know, it has to be hopeful,positive.
But I think the if you want oneword, it's gotta be inspiring.
That's what I would suggest.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:26):
I'm gonna go with clarity.
It's gotta be clear.
People have to be able tounderstand it.
I agree with you, Ravi.
They gotta be wanting to buy inand be part of it.
But it's gotta be really clear.
Everybody understands exactlywhere we're going.
SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
How about we close it with this?
Jennifer, can you share a habitthat keeps you strategically
sharp?
SPEAKER_03 (40:50):
For me, it's reading.
Just even if it's only 30minutes, trying to find time
every week to really bemonitoring those signals.
What's changing in policy,what's happening in the
workforce, what's the newest,strangest uh technology out
there, maybe the newest,strangest thing players are
doing.
But I think it's reading.
(41:10):
I think just finding the time topay attention to what's
happening outside of yourorganization.
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
I like to listen to history podcasts.
They are a great lesson whenpeople think that this was a
victory, but in the end yourealize it's really what brought
down what either that person orthat empire wanted to do.
It's uh hubris in my mind isprobably that's what you learn.
(41:39):
Hubris is the one quality whichwill bring down any good
strategy or an organization.
So not having hubris, havinghumility is what you learn from
all these history podcasts forme.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Well, speaking of this podcast, I feel like we
could this thing could go twohours if we wanted to, and you
guys could just keep you knowtalking right off the cuff, but
with again, so much deepknowledge and passion and
empathy.
Uh, this has just been afantastic conversation.
So, Jennifer, Ravi, thank youboth for joining us today.
SPEAKER_03 (42:15):
Thank you, Kat.
Pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
If you're listening to this episode and let's say it
sparked some ideas, share itwith a colleague, or why don't
you share it with your boardchair?
How about that?
You can also learn more aboutBoundless and our mission to
support individuals and familiesat Iamboundless.org.
Before we wrap it up, let'sbring you November's mission
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (42:37):
I'm Jody Bop, and I'm the Vice President for
Advancement at I Am Boundless,and this is my mission moment.
As Vice President forAdvancement, I have the distinct
pleasure of working with peoplewho give philanthropically to I
Am Boundless.
As Ohio's largest nonprofitprovider of services to people
with special needs, we rely onphilanthropic donations in order
(42:59):
to make all the magic happen.
But usually I work with thedonors and I make sure their
money gets where it belongs, butI don't experience it firsthand
per se.
But let me tell you whathappened on Halloween.
The program staff here at theWorthington campus decided it
would be great fun to recruitall the ad administrative staff,
including people like me, tostand in offices and give out
(43:21):
trick-or-treat candy for thekids in the autism program here
in Worthington.
The kids would come in costume,they'd say trick-or-treat, we'd
give them the candy, you know,the routine.
I happen to wear glasses.
Now, this isn't reallyimportant, most people don't
even notice, but as the chaosand wonderfulness and noise and
(43:42):
laughter of having uh kids ofmany ages between five and
twenty two come in ensued, astaff member kind of tugged on
my shoulder quickly and said,You may need to take off your
glasses.
But honestly, in the midst ofthe chaos, I didn't really pay
attention and I didn't really uhnotice, and then she turned to
(44:02):
deal with a child who wasgetting a little bit
overexcited.
Maybe 45 seconds later, a youngwoman comes to the door of the
office.
I'm getting ready to hand her apiece of candy, and she looked
me in the face and said, Can youplease take off your glasses?
So, of course, I took off myglasses.
She said, Thank you.
She said trigger treat.
I handed her the treat, and shemoved on.
(44:24):
About five minutes later, whenall the kids had moved on to the
next building, the staff memberin question came back running at
me and said, This young lady whoasked me to take off my glasses
has a bit of a challenge withpeople who wear glasses because
she feels like she can't seeyour whole face and it
intimidates her.
And up to that point, herreaction to people wearing
(44:45):
glasses was either to not makeeye contact, to not speak, or
worse, to try to removesomeone's glasses for them,
which as you can imagine is notwhat most folks want to have
happened.
But with me, and I don't knowwhy that day, um, well, I do
know why it was because of thestaff, uh, she asked me to
remove my glasses politely.
(45:06):
I removed them, and she saidthank you.
Apparently, she had never donethat to a stranger before, only
other staff at Boundless, andthe staff were so excited, and
we got very emotional about it,and I'm getting emotional
telling you because this youngwoman can now go out in the
world.
And thanks to the amazing staffat Boundless and the
(45:27):
philanthropic support of thedonors who I get the privilege
of working with, there's a youngwoman out there who is no longer
afraid to ask a stranger to takeoff their glasses so she can see
their whole face.
And so that is my mission momentthat carries me through the
fall.
I hope everyone has a wonderfulThanksgiving.
And it's um on behalf of all ofus at Boundless, I am extremely
(45:49):
grateful for those of you wholisten to this podcast and for
those of you who support ourwonderful mission.
SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
Jody, what a great story.
What a great Halloween memoryand a memory that will last a
long, long time.
Just terrific.
Folks, don't forget you canlearn more about Boundless and
our mission to supportindividuals and families at
IambBoundless.
This is the Nonprofit Leader'sGuy podcast brought to you by
Boundless.
I think recently sent me a strategy article
that's in my head for a fewweeks.
It asked for this the moment forstrategic hibernation preserve
their core assets, reduce theirexposure.
If you work in health and humanservices, can you really afford
(00:23):
the hibernate?
Or is it better to movesomething else entirely?
Something like protecting yourcore strength, probing the
market, and when the timing andtechnology are right.
Today we're asking the questionevery nonprofit leader needs to
(00:44):
be asking right now.
What's your next move?
Welcome everyone to thenonprofit leaders.
And yes, even a roadmap in amoment of incredible
(01:07):
uncertainty.
So that's what we're talkingabout today.
And today I'm talking about twomore remarkable strategists and
real leaders out there in thisspace.
Jennifer Riha is Chief StrategyOfficer at I Am Boundless,
serving children, adults,families with intellectual and
developmental disabilities, andbehavioral health needs across
Ohio.
(01:28):
Hi, Jenny, good to see youagain.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Great.
Thanks for having me, Scott.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
Ravi Dahia is Chief Strategy Officer at YAI, a
nationally recognized nonprofitserving people with IDD since
1957 with all kinds of programsthat are grounded in
independence, opportunity, andinclusion.
Ravi, it's good to have youhere.
Thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Thanks for having me, Scott.
Jen.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Jennifer, I'd like to start with you.
And we'll do a kind of a coupleof rapid fires.
I want to get your brains goinghere out of the gate.
In a sentence, how would youdefine strategy in today's
health and human servicesenvironment?
SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Well, in a sentence, it's a tall order.
So I'm going to give it my bestshot, but I've been thinking
about this.
So I would define strategy asthe disciplined choice of where
to focus and how to mobilizepeople, resources, and
partnership to really create theimpact for the people that we
serve.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Robbie's already nodding out of the gate here.
Ravi, do you want to take a shotat that one?
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yeah, I couldn't say it any more better, but I think
it's one thing I would say isstrategy is about shaping the
future about participating in itrather than the future shaping
you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Kind of lightning around here out of the gate.
Another quick rapid fire.
What's one strategic assumptionthat you think nonprofit leaders
need to re-examine and maybere-examine it pretty
immediately?
Ravi, what do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
The one common mistake which I see, and I've
seen it in our organization, isa plan is not a strategy.
It is, as Jennifer said, it's aseries of choices one makes.
So I think that is somethingwhich most leaders need to begin
thinking about.
SPEAKER_02 (03:12):
That is a great way to just jump into this entire
conversation today.
I mentioned an article in whatwe called our cold open of the
podcast of this particularepisode.
And the article I mentioned usesthe term strategic hibernation.
And they use it this way, quote,quietly preserving internal
(03:33):
capacities while reducingexternal exposure, end quote.
It's an approach that some banksand tech firms have used in
chaotic moments, but akin toboth of you.
And health and human services,the market doesn't pause, right?
Regulations are shifting,payors, you know, raise
expectations.
Technology is alwaysaccelerating, workforce
(03:55):
capacity, that's always anissue.
It's changing month to month.
So, Jennifer, how do you helpyour teams distinguish true
strategy from kind of the dailyfirefighting?
SPEAKER_03 (04:05):
You know, I see firefighting as being focused on
restoring and stabilizing today.
Strategy is about shapingtomorrow.
And so in health and humanservices, we don't have the
luxury of strategic hibernationbecause, as you said, the needs
of the people we serve, theydon't pause.
Regulations evolve, payers raiseexpectations, technology shifts.
(04:27):
And I do know that it's easy toget sucked into firefighting,
but I would really encourage,and I do this with my own teams,
is encourage them to askthemselves some questions.
And it's really does thisdecision or this thing that
we're doing change ourtrajectory, or is it just
maintaining the status quo?
Like I said, firefightingstabilizes, but strategy is
(04:49):
going to alter the trajectoryand really shape where you're
going tomorrow.
And then are we responding tosymptoms or root causes?
Because I think a lot of ourfires are caused from not really
addressing the root causes.
And if we take the time or canfind the time to be focused on
strategy, it should result infewer fires that have to be put
(05:10):
out in any given day.
And then does this matter in sixmonths?
And if the answer is yes, thenthat probably is something
strategic.
But it really is hard to createthat discipline to stay or find
that time to be focused onstrategy because I'm not in any
way saying the fires aren'treal.
And it really is a pit for somany leaders to fall into to get
(05:35):
sucked into that firefightingall day, every day.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
You know, I I just want to bring it back to our
organization.
We just lost our CEO to he to anillness, and he was a young man
who passed away over the summer.
That was a shock to our system.
So there was, we had to, if youwant to call it hibernation or
whatever, we had to stop andtake stock and grieve and
(06:02):
support each other and reallythink about ourselves and by,
but we can't forget about thepeople we support.
So do you want to call thathibernation?
Do you want to call it whateveryou want?
But that is a naturalconsequence when somebody or
some organization does undergosomething like that.
(06:26):
But at the same time, I thinkJennifer is absolutely right.
And the article also, and Iremember reading that when it
came across my uh my screen,things are changing out there.
We still have to keep engaged,we still have to keep an eye out
on what's happening with theSNAP benefits, with you know,
all of these things which havean impact on what the
(06:49):
organization does.
You can't ignore or turn a blindeye to those.
So yes, it's hibernation, butthe hibernation is more about us
pausing because there will be achange in leadership.
There will be some time beforewe come to terms with what
exactly happened in theorganization, what are the
long-term strategic goals?
(07:11):
Now, our strategic plan was from2023 to 2026.
So we've still got a year to gothrough.
Our acting CEO and I just satdown and did a scorecard of
where we are right now.
There were some greens, therewere a lot of yellows, and there
were some reds in there, thingswe need to get better at.
(07:31):
But that was us still takingstock of where we are.
Um, but at the same time, werecognize that we have to begin
looking, not two to three yearsdown the road from 2026.
And I think, you know, Iactually lord what Boundless is
doing with the Vision 2030 planfive years from now.
I think that's really a goodhorizon to be thinking about
(07:54):
where do you want to be fiveyears from now?
And that is what probably we'llend up doing as we go through
the next year, taking stock ofwhere we are, seeing how the
leadership settles, where theteams are, and then think about
where we want to be five yearsfrom now.
So when I think about strategichibernation, yes, at different
(08:15):
times, different organizations,teams, people might need to just
stop for a minute and reassesswhat their goals are, what the
fires they're turning burningout right now, but not forget
where we need to be.
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
You know, I had a maybe, maybe it's my own little
light bulb here.
You guys tell me if this isrelevant, but but thinking about
this, my mind went to COVID.
Didn't we all have to hibernatemaybe just a little or maybe a
lot for some folks and for someorganizations?
I that was looking back, maybethat was a form of strategic
(08:49):
hibernation for a little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
You know, Robbie, listening to you, I'm struck by
whether or not a pause, anintentional pause, is the same
thing as hibernation, andwhether there's maybe even um
grades or sort of um a spectrumof sort of fully hibernating
(09:12):
versus taking a pause tointentionally reset.
And then I also think, Scott,when we you talk about COVID,
the reality is there areorganizations that came out of
COVID stronger, there wereorganizations that came out of
COVID weaker, there wereorganizations that came out of
COVID behind.
And so even when the world maybeforces a pause on you or forces
(09:38):
some level of hibernation, Ihesitate to think we can make
the choice to say we're gonnafully hibernate, we're gonna go
to sleep.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
No, I I agree with Jennifer.
I think COVID, Scott, when youtalk about it, I I think I don't
think I've ever worked harder inmy life than during that time.
I'll I'll be honest.
I used to be exhausted by theend of the day after having uh
so many meetings, so many Zoomcalls, you know, pretty soon in
New York, since we got hit withthe first wave pretty early.
(10:08):
A lot of us got sick right inthe beginning, um, dealing with
the emotional grief which peoplewere dealing with, but yet at
the same time, we couldn't stop.
So all of that was happening inthe first three or four months.
But in the subsequent years, andI think Jennifer, to your point,
is there was more of a need forour services than less.
And I think there were someorganizations which probably
(10:30):
said no, but we leaned in.
And that is the time we saw thebiggest growth in some of our
programs outside of New York,actually, than we ever did
before.
And we as an organization leanedinto that growth and I believe
came out stronger, as Jennifersaid.
SPEAKER_02 (10:48):
I think about Ravidi, your point amid the
devastation and the illnessesand the deaths from COVID.
I do think there was a a largerpermission structure that was
that was put in society and inAmerican society specifically to
talk more about mental health,talk more about self-care.
(11:12):
To talk more about checking onour neighbors and our family
members and and our co-workers,our colleagues.
How are you doing?
And to both of your points,those are positives.
Those are positives and thoseare impacts that are that are
lasting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
You know, it's and I don't know about you, Jennifer,
at Boundless, uh, but at leastat YI, the programs which
integrated mental health and IDDservices saw a rapid expansion
in many parts of New York State,California, and New Jersey,
which is the three states we dowork.
And it was because it had themental health component in it.
(11:50):
People started recognizing thatthat is something which was
ignored before and now peoplewere accepting.
And I think COVID did haveprobably a greater awareness on
part of policymakers tounderstand that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:06):
Absolutely.
If there is a silver lining tobe found, it is that definitely
that reduction of stigmabroadly, but then also the
realization and reduction of I'dsay maybe blindness to the idea
that people with IDD also haveemotions and experience mental
health conditions and mentalhealth uh concerns.
And I agree with you, theprograms that we offer that
(12:29):
integrated those and braidedthose together absolutely grew
the fastest during the COVIDyears.
SPEAKER_02 (12:34):
Let me ask a level set question for both of you.
Jennifer, here at Boundless, um,what are what are the top
pressures right now that thatare that are shaping strategy,
not just right now, but but inthe you know near term and and
long-term future?
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
I'm gonna say the top pressures that we are facing
are first probably changes andeven say rising expectations
from payers and regulators.
So we see pushes forimmeasurable outcomes,
integrated care, real-time data,and that's not someday, that's
right now.
And for a multi-serviceorganization like ours, that
(13:12):
really translates into pressurewhere we need to align our
clinical models, be investing indata systems, and demonstrate
consistency across programs.
I'd say we can't overstate theimpact of workforce volatility.
So the reality is workforce ischanging month to month, not
(13:32):
year to year.
And so we have to keep constantattention on that.
And programs that are fullystaffed today may not look that
way tomorrow or the followingmonth.
So we've been having to put alot of investment and attention
to our recruitment pipelines,how we train, how we retain
people.
And then the other thing I wouldsay we're paying attention to,
(13:54):
and I'm not sure any of us Iwould say are mastering this,
but definitely paying attentionto it and investing in is the
rapid acceleration of technologyin healthcare.
So whether we're talking aboutAI, virtual care, remote
monitoring, technology isreshaping the expectations both
from families and individualsthat we're serving, but also
(14:16):
from payers and regulators.
And so if we don't build thatdigital fluency, and I don't
just mean tools, but I mean theprocesses and the culture for
our staff to be able to supportand use technology, I believe we
risk being left behind theproviders who can integrate
that, who can deliver carethat's more coordinated, more
(14:38):
transparent, more measurable.
And so when I think about themajor pressures on us, those are
the things that I believe Balmusand quite frankly, all
organizations doing this workneed to find a way to invest in
and need to find the time tofocus on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
You know, Scott, I've been doing this work for 30
years, and I don't recall asingle time when I haven't heard
workforce is a challenge.
I don't recall a single singletime when they don't say that
payments and the rates are notadequate.
And it's almost, I want to justtake it back to the hibernation.
I, you know, these are pressureswhich have always existed, and
(15:16):
we had to, this is what is thefoundation in terms of this is
the world we are living in andworking in.
So, how do we adapt?
How do we keep working?
Although regulations arechanging, there's uncertainty,
and people use the term VUCA,right?
I mean, I'm sure you've heardthat in plenty of places
(15:37):
volatile, uncertain,complicated, ambiguous times.
Was there ever a time which itwasn't?
Is the question I ask.
If that is the case, and if thathas always been a constant, it
is up to us as leaders to workwith our teams to find a way of
(15:57):
knowing that is a constant, howare we going to succeed?
What if these are pressures, arethese also opportunities at the
same time?
Because can we then adapt pivotto incorporating those within
our service lines so that westill deliver the same outcomes
(16:17):
to what we do?
Like, for example, we work insome very remote parts of New
York and California doing crisiswork.
Can our staff get there in time?
No.
So we have to use remotetelehealth services and convince
the states to pay us for thoseservices, which were not doing
it in the past, because if theydon't, those folks are not going
(16:40):
to get the services and they'llend up in their hospitals and
ERs.
So what's better for them?
Pay us for it.
So we have to make the case.
But I think those are the placeswhere organizations like
Boundless, who've been leadingthis charge and YI can discuss
these policy matters with thestate officials and people who
(17:02):
are in charge so that theregulations can be shaped rather
than us being saddled byregulations, which then we
complain about.
And I think that's whatorganizations like ours tend to
do all the time, is how we thereat the table to help get the
best outcomes for the people wesupport.
SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
So, Ravi, uh, it reminds me of what you said in
the beginning, where strategy ismaking sure that we are shaping
the future and we are impactingthe tomorrow we want to have,
not letting it be happening tous.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Right.
No, agreed.
I mean, that's where we you haveto be listening and seeing.
It starts with what the needsare, really, right?
And many a time the regulationsare slow to catch up.
How do we then work with thestate to make the regulations do
pilots, for example?
I know that is something which Iknow we'll talk about a bit
later, doing pilots and showinghow effective they are.
(17:59):
That is exactly how we got intoCalifornia.
We did a pilot in the in the SanJose area about a mental health
crisis program, which now hasexpanded across the state of
California.
So, how do we take those, seethose opportunities and jump on
them rather than waiting forthem to come to us and then
forcing us to adapt to them?
SPEAKER_02 (18:19):
Boy, you both teed up the next question I had on my
list.
And again, a few notes from thatfrom that same article that
we've been referencing.
And that is the political risksout there.
Uh Ravi, to your point, therepolitics is always going to
change from at the local level,at the state level, different
governors, different presidents.
It's always going to change.
(18:40):
So how do you both factor inthose political and and
regulatory volatilities, plural,because it is plural, how do you
factor those into your strategicplanning?
SPEAKER_03 (18:53):
You know, I would say we can't control the
political environment or thepolitical volatility, but we can
control our readiness.
And so the the things that Iwould we've put a lot of time
into certainly now, but Ravi, toyour point, this isn't the first
time there's been politicalvolatility.
So we do scenario planning.
(19:14):
Earlier this year, when therewere lots of questions around
what was going to happen toMedicaid, we did a number of
different models looking atplausible outcomes and what
would the impact of boundless beif this happens.
What did the impact of boundlessbe if that happens?
The other thing I think is soimportant is to protect the
(19:35):
assets that remain valuableregardless of politics.
And that's having really strongclinical models, a resilient
workforce, technologyinfrastructure, trust and
relationships with your payersand your communities.
It doesn't matter who's inoffice, it doesn't matter what's
happening politically, if you'reprotecting those assets that
(19:56):
you're going to need no matterwhat.
And then the other thing I wouldsay, and you mentioned this a
minute ago, Ravi, is payingattention, watching for the
signals early.
So that includes looking at thesmaller indicators, like what
are the draft rules, what arethe rate notices, what kind of
conversations are happening inthe committees where they're
(20:17):
talking about waivers, what kindof pilots are happening, what
kind of federal guidance memosare coming out, and really
making sure that you'remonitoring, paying attention to
those so that you're prepared tomove before the change becomes a
mandate and you're being forcedto be reactive.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
You know, Jennifer said it so well.
Political uncertainty has beenthere ever since I recall
whether the rates are high, therates are low.
I don't think, you know, just asidebar, there are people
sometimes which come and work inour line of work and they've
come from the private sector.
(20:54):
And the first thing they ask is,well, your costs are going up,
why can't you increase prices?
And well, if it was that simple,that's why it is difficult,
complicated work out here.
We have to work within theconstraints what we have.
So doing those pilots, listeningto the signals, as Jennifer
mentioned, the amount of pilotsI have sitting on my desk,
(21:17):
they're just piling up thosepilots.
And many of them probably didn'tadvance past the policy maker we
were dealing with, but each ofthem had nuggets which we could
take to really make a successfulprogram somewhere else because
we had thought given it sometime and thought.
And those failures of whethergetting those pilots adopted
(21:42):
helped us really design theprogram which the policymakers
were thinking of in the nextadministration.
And I think every administrationhas its priorities, but on the
ground, nobody wants people withdisabilities to be heard,
irrespective of who's in power.
And I think that is somethingwhich we can always lean into as
(22:05):
organizations to really advanceuh what we have to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Let me ask a couple of follow-ups when it comes to
strategy and maybe give ourlisteners some real practical
takeaways here.
Balance has just completed amajor strategic planning process
to define our vision through2030, why AI is navigating one
of the most complex servicemarkets in the entire country.
(22:30):
So, again, let's dive into thata little bit.
And Jennifer, I'll start withyou.
How how did you approach this2030 vision process?
Who was involved?
How'd you gather insights?
And what mattered most?
SPEAKER_03 (22:41):
Yeah, so this was actually the most extensive and
in-depth strategic planningexercise that Boundless has ever
engaged in.
And the reason is as I look outover 2025 to 2030, 2035, I don't
believe that Boundless or anyorganization can afford to plan
in an echo chamber.
(23:03):
I don't think that we have theluxury of hearing what we want
to hear and seeing what we wantto see.
So we really went all in onputting together a process that
we hoped was going to get usreally good objective insight
and feedback.
So we solicited over 9,000stakeholders for inputs, people
(23:23):
we serve, employees, familymembers, guardians, payers,
community partners.
We even had industry expertsthat we reached out to to say,
have you ever heard of us andwhat do you know about us?
And then we commissionedenvironmental and market scans,
we did listening sessions andfocus groups all over the state.
We did a full slot, we had anoutside firm do a full slot
(23:45):
analysis on how we run ourbusiness.
We commissioned benchmarkingagainst our peers across the
sector, really trying to makesure that we were getting macro
level signals, but then alsodirectly hearing ground level
truths.
And we can't predict what thefuture is going to look like,
(24:07):
but we can build an organizationthat's prepared no matter what
that ends up looking like.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
And Jennifer, what surprised you from all of those
insights you gathered?
SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Well, the first thing I would say is be careful
what you ask for.
If you ask people for their realopinions, you better be prepared
to hear them.
It was really, really a greatexperience.
There were so many stories thatcame out of it of the impact
that our employees have had onthe um families and the
individuals that we serve, andthen even impact across the
(24:40):
sector, other providers aresaying, you know, this is
something I heard you speakabout, and we started a program
like that, and it's having animpact in our community.
And so it really was anincredible process.
But a couple of things thatstood out.
One, the appetite for integratedcare was stronger than we
expected.
Um, you might know, Scott orRavi, I think I've mentioned
(25:00):
this to you too, that we haveintegrated health care.
So we have primary care,dentistry, those things in one
part of the state.
And I'll tell you, the feedbackfrom the rest of the parts of
Ohio was not good.
They're pretty jealous, Scott,of why do you only offer that
one place?
And why is it taking you so longto get these services in our
communities?
(25:21):
We need them too.
That was a we thought that thatwas a long-term plan.
We heard it needed to be a muchshorter-term plan.
Um, the other things we heard isthat our workforce really is
looking for things likeflexibility, supportive
supervision, career pathways,and that in some cases that's as
(25:42):
important as wages.
So it's really forced us to takea step back and look at how are
we making sure we're a greatemployer?
Because we all know it.
If we don't have the workforce,we can't provide services.
It we're a human providing humanservices sector.
Um, the other things we heardfamilies want more digital
(26:05):
access, transparency choice.
They told us repeatedly we arenot great at communicating, so
we needed to do a lot betterwith that, and that's part of
the new strategy.
Some of the other things weheard was um stakeholders told
Boundless that we needed toactually play a bolder role than
we anticipated.
(26:26):
We've done a lot of work aroundgovernment relations and
advocacy just here in the last18 months, and the level of
feedback we got around that workwas very surprising of people
saying, We see it and we reallyappreciate it, but by the way,
you're still not doing enough ofit, and we want to be even more
involved in it.
(26:46):
So it was really an incredibleexperience to hear from people
where they see what we're doingworking, where they see what
we're doing as not fully gettingthere and where we need to do
better.
It was a it was a greatexperience being able to get
that feedback and people feelingthat they trusted us enough to
be honest and to say this iswhat we really think.
SPEAKER_02 (27:08):
I'm gonna mirror those same questions, Robbie, to
you in just a second.
But Jennifer, one more to youregarding Boundless in this 2030
plan.
So, from all of those inputs andthen the surprises thrown in
there as well, what did youdecide on?
What did you and the team decideon to say, hey, this is where
we're going to invest?
And maybe in a couple of theseother areas, we're going to pull
(27:30):
back.
SPEAKER_03 (27:30):
For I think every nonprofit on the planet, that
second part is the hard part.
Where do we need to pull back?
Where do we need to pause?
Where do we possibly even needto stop?
Um, so ultimately, when wecreated the plan, and our board
actually just approved the newfive-year plan a little over a
month ago, we focused oncapabilities, not projects.
(27:55):
So we did not list out 50initiatives or 50 projects that
we're going to get done in thenext five years.
We really zoomed in on what arethe capabilities that this
organization needs to be what weneed to be in five years.
And so that's things like thatcommitment to integrated care
and interdisciplinary teams,building a resilient workforce,
(28:19):
having our operations and ourbusiness be efficient, be
reliable, be consistent, datafluency.
And so focusing on thecapabilities gives us that
flexibility for the tactics toevolve and respond to what's
happening in the environment.
But those capabilities are whatwe're going to need no matter
what the tactic is.
(28:40):
We also built in checkpoints.
We've implemented some reallystrong practices here recently
around an annual replan thatdoes have the conversation about
the tactics and the specificinitiatives.
But then we're doing it everyquarter.
We call it now quarterlybusiness review.
And every division, everyprogram, every department is
(29:02):
sitting down and saying from afinancial perspective, from a
mission perspective, from what'shappening in the market
perspective, here's the updateon mine for the quarter, here's
the shift we need to make sothat we're getting really tight
on our processes to say we'reconstantly evaluating.
Do we need to pause?
Do we need to stop something sothat we can invest somewhere
(29:25):
else?
And that's really the trade-offthat we're having to make.
And even though it's hard, Ithink we have to keep
emphasizing with our team, withour leaders, it's so we can have
the impact that we all want tohave.
We've got to have the resourcesto invest in the things that are
working.
And that does mean we've got tostop and pause other things.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
Okay, Ravi, we'll come to you.
And how are you getting yourinputs um to mold your strategic
plan?
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
By the way, just to reflect on what Jennifer just
said, focus.
Focusing on capabilities.
That is so insightful.
I'm stealing that, Jennifer.
I am running with that.
That was fantastic, though whatyou just said.
So thank you.
I will definitely be uh givingyou a call.
Um so we I think too whatJennifer said is we are coming
(30:18):
to an end to our three-yearplan.
I do think how Boundless isapproaching its future over the
five years is I commend them.
It is trying to shape thefuture.
The three-year plan sounds morelike these are the projects we
want to get done and let's dothem.
I think the five years positionsBoundless to be in a place where
(30:42):
they want to be focusing on thecapabilities.
So kudos to them.
Uh, we are coming to an end,like I said, for a three-year
plan.
We just did a scorecard.
Um, some of the things we arerealizing is obviously the
workforce is a challenge, alwaysbeen a challenge, but I predict
based on everything which isgoing on in the world right now,
(31:03):
and given where the demographicsare going, the workforce
challenge is just gonna get moreand more exacerbated.
And it is, we have so manypeople with dis intellectual
disabilities living at home withthe caregivers, and the
caregivers are aging, they'regonna need services.
There's the same person whomight be helping the person with
(31:24):
an intellectual disability, buttheir parents also need the
help.
Now, again, I I think I'm justprobably just free thinking this
right now, but we have a lot ofour programs in bricks and
mortar right now.
Probably 60% of our revenuescome from there.
Um they are very labor-intensiveprograms.
(31:48):
My suspicion is as we take stockof where we are right now and we
think about what happens from2026 onwards, and hopefully our
executive team and the boardwill say, let's think about five
years from now where we want tobe, it would make sense for us
to think where do we, what areour capabilities, as Jennifer
(32:10):
said, what are the where are theneeds, where are the dollars for
this?
And how do we start turning YI,the Titanic VR across three
states, focusing on where theneeds are, and that will require
us to do exactly some of thethings and I what Boundless has
(32:31):
done, and I'm taking notes rightnow as to what they did.
So uh, but that is a great wayof approaching it, a much more
in-depth look and involvingpeople because strategy at the
end of the day is about people.
Yes, we'd like to think it'sabout an organization, it's
about how the organizationrelates with the people it
(32:53):
supports and how people who areemployed within the organization
work with each other.
As somebody said, you know,there are lots of people who
said this, and I'm this I'm notthe first one to say it.
Culture will eat strategy forbreakfast, lunch, dinner, any
day.
So if you don't take this intoaccount as to what the
organization will do, it wouldresult in failure, and it'll be
(33:17):
a binder sitting on some desksomewhere which nobody even
looks at.
And I think that is a challengefor us to think about as we move
into the next uh strategicplanning process.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Ravi, I also wrote down focus on capabilities as
well.
And I loved your verbiage whenyou said you're gonna steal
that.
I'm a firm believer, you know,amateurs borrow ideas,
professionals steal them.
And I and I don't I I don't hideit.
I am a professional ideastealer, and that's okay.
(33:47):
That is okay.
What were your surprises,Robbie, from again from all
those inputs you were gettingabout your plan?
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
One of the things I think there's no doubt that a
middle management is thestrength of YI.
It's the core.
It the culture which has existedat YI is that band of managers
who've been here and speak theYI language.
And I always, and I worked atdifferent organizations and I've
(34:17):
come here to YI and I realizethere is a specific language
people use when they're talkingto each other.
Uh we use the word people wesupport, PWS, all the time.
And that establishes therelationship which our staff
have with the people in ourprograms, that we are there to
support them.
It establishes the hierarchythere.
(34:39):
And those subtle indicators tellme that that culture is so
strong across our middlemanagers that no matter the
change we are going through atthe top level right now, because
of what happened to our previousCEO, we will come out stronger
because our middle managers arethe backbone of this
(35:00):
organization.
And that is something whichgives me so much hope.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
Let's come back to that lightning round.
That's kind of where we started.
And I've got a few questionshere as we start to uh wrap up
our conversation.
Jennifer, what would be justsome simple but really good
advice you would have for afellow nonprofit leader out
there?
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
So, what I would offer is some questions that may
not be fun to ask, but I thinkare really important in today's
environment.
So the first one that I wouldsuggest is forcing yourself to
ask the question is thisfeasible with the workforce we
actually have, not the workforcewe wish we had.
(35:40):
Even if the answer is no, I amnot suggesting you should
abandon the impact you hope tohave.
But you may need to abandon theship you thought you were gonna
use to get there.
It doesn't mean you give up themission, it doesn't mean you say
we're not going to have thatimpact in the world, but you may
need to say this isn't the waywe're gonna be able to do it,
(36:03):
because to Ravi's point, I ahundred percent agree.
The workforce we have today isprobably the best it's gonna
get.
We need to get really good atserving even more people with
the workforce we already haveand maybe even fewer.
The second question I wouldsuggest that is tough, but I
think we all need to be askingis is there a viable path to
(36:27):
financial stability?
If a program, if a service, ifan initiative cannot achieve
financial sustainability andresilience, even if you make
some improvements and tweaks,we've got to question whether or
not it it can continue to belongin our plan or in our strategy.
(36:49):
One of the things we talkedabout uh here recently is
funding programs is never easy.
It's always painful to decidewe're gonna stop doing this
program.
But the truth is sometimes thecommunity and the individuals
you're serving tell you that aprogram isn't having the same
impact or doesn't culturallyalign anymore.
(37:11):
And they tell you that notverbally, they tell you that
with their feet in theirwallets.
When you don't have the demandfor a particular program or
service in a part of the stateor in a region, uh you have to
ask the question of whether ornot what you're offering is what
people want.
And if we can't come up with apath to financial
sustainability, then we reallydo need to be rethinking whether
(37:34):
these are programs and serviceswe can keep offering.
Then the final one is that weask is Is balance uniquely
positioned to do it well?
We talked about this earlier,Ravi.
We are really leaning into whereour integrated IDD behavioral
health healthcare model gives usa distinctive advantage and
(37:56):
deprioritizing areas wherebalance might not be the right
fit.
We are not everything toeveryone, and that is okay.
And so we need to be investing.
I think all organizations needto be investing where the
mission, the market, and theirunique strengths intersect.
We've got a pause work thatmight have been good, but it's
(38:18):
not strategic because it's notfinancially sustainable.
The workforce we have does notallow that model to really be a
model for the future.
And we need to be willing tostep away from things that
distract us or hold us back frombuilding those capabilities that
the future demands.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Robbie, best advice that you have for a nonprofit
leader that's maybe listening inhere.
SPEAKER_01 (38:40):
So I heard the statement the other day, and I
thought this was a fantasticstatement.
Ask the right question or yourisk solving the wrong problem.
I think that's yeah, I wish Ihad come up with it, but I don't
think I yeah, I actually even ifyou are asking the right
question and you may not havethe right solution, at least
(39:01):
tells you what you need to do.
Maybe it is, and you may havethree choices in my mind right
now.
One is to cut back, containcosts so that you might be
financially stable.
I think that is probably as anorganization, that may be the
closest it comes to ahibernation strategy, but that's
(39:22):
a short-term strategy.
The second way I would say isstart looking at your programs
where you can contain costs andalso where you can get more
efficiencies so that they can bemoney-making programs.
And then the last one is, and Ithink this is where Boundless is
probably thinking about this iswhere do you invest in what
(39:44):
lines and what capabilities sothat five years from now you are
ready to take advantage ofwhat's the landscape will be.
And I think that kind of ananalysis would be good for us
and for any organization to takeinto account.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
That's excellent, Robbie.
Um, a couple of quickies here.
What give me one word that youwant nonprofit leaders to
associate with strategy?
Robbie, how about one wordthere?
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Strategy in my mind has to be inspiring.
Otherwise, who will want to comeand work for you?
You know, it has to be hopeful,positive.
But I think the if you want oneword, it's gotta be inspiring.
That's what I would suggest.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:26):
I'm gonna go with clarity.
It's gotta be clear.
People have to be able tounderstand it.
I agree with you, Ravi.
They gotta be wanting to buy inand be part of it.
But it's gotta be really clear.
Everybody understands exactlywhere we're going.
SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
How about we close it with this?
Jennifer, can you share a habitthat keeps you strategically
sharp?
SPEAKER_03 (40:50):
For me, it's reading.
Just even if it's only 30minutes, trying to find time
every week to really bemonitoring those signals.
What's changing in policy,what's happening in the
workforce, what's the newest,strangest uh technology out
there, maybe the newest,strangest thing players are
doing.
But I think it's reading.
(41:10):
I think just finding the time topay attention to what's
happening outside of yourorganization.
SPEAKER_01 (41:17):
I like to listen to history podcasts.
They are a great lesson whenpeople think that this was a
victory, but in the end yourealize it's really what brought
down what either that person orthat empire wanted to do.
It's uh hubris in my mind isprobably that's what you learn.
(41:39):
Hubris is the one quality whichwill bring down any good
strategy or an organization.
So not having hubris, havinghumility is what you learn from
all these history podcasts forme.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Well, speaking of this podcast, I feel like we
could this thing could go twohours if we wanted to, and you
guys could just keep you knowtalking right off the cuff, but
with again, so much deepknowledge and passion and
empathy.
Uh, this has just been afantastic conversation.
So, Jennifer, Ravi, thank youboth for joining us today.
SPEAKER_03 (42:15):
Thank you, Kat.
Pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
If you're listening to this episode and let's say it
sparked some ideas, share itwith a colleague, or why don't
you share it with your boardchair?
How about that?
You can also learn more aboutBoundless and our mission to
support individuals and familiesat Iamboundless.org.
Before we wrap it up, let'sbring you November's mission
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (42:37):
I'm Jody Bop, and I'm the Vice President for
Advancement at I Am Boundless,and this is my mission moment.
As Vice President forAdvancement, I have the distinct
pleasure of working with peoplewho give philanthropically to I
Am Boundless.
As Ohio's largest nonprofitprovider of services to people
with special needs, we rely onphilanthropic donations in order
(42:59):
to make all the magic happen.
But usually I work with thedonors and I make sure their
money gets where it belongs, butI don't experience it firsthand
per se.
But let me tell you whathappened on Halloween.
The program staff here at theWorthington campus decided it
would be great fun to recruitall the ad administrative staff,
including people like me, tostand in offices and give out
(43:21):
trick-or-treat candy for thekids in the autism program here
in Worthington.
The kids would come in costume,they'd say trick-or-treat, we'd
give them the candy, you know,the routine.
I happen to wear glasses.
Now, this isn't reallyimportant, most people don't
even notice, but as the chaosand wonderfulness and noise and
(43:42):
laughter of having uh kids ofmany ages between five and
twenty two come in ensued, astaff member kind of tugged on
my shoulder quickly and said,You may need to take off your
glasses.
But honestly, in the midst ofthe chaos, I didn't really pay
attention and I didn't really uhnotice, and then she turned to
(44:02):
deal with a child who wasgetting a little bit
overexcited.
Maybe 45 seconds later, a youngwoman comes to the door of the
office.
I'm getting ready to hand her apiece of candy, and she looked
me in the face and said, Can youplease take off your glasses?
So, of course, I took off myglasses.
She said, Thank you.
She said trigger treat.
I handed her the treat, and shemoved on.
(44:24):
About five minutes later, whenall the kids had moved on to the
next building, the staff memberin question came back running at
me and said, This young lady whoasked me to take off my glasses
has a bit of a challenge withpeople who wear glasses because
she feels like she can't seeyour whole face and it
intimidates her.
And up to that point, herreaction to people wearing
(44:45):
glasses was either to not makeeye contact, to not speak, or
worse, to try to removesomeone's glasses for them,
which as you can imagine is notwhat most folks want to have
happened.
But with me, and I don't knowwhy that day, um, well, I do
know why it was because of thestaff, uh, she asked me to
remove my glasses politely.
(45:06):
I removed them, and she saidthank you.
Apparently, she had never donethat to a stranger before, only
other staff at Boundless, andthe staff were so excited, and
we got very emotional about it,and I'm getting emotional
telling you because this youngwoman can now go out in the
world.
And thanks to the amazing staffat Boundless and the
(45:27):
philanthropic support of thedonors who I get the privilege
of working with, there's a youngwoman out there who is no longer
afraid to ask a stranger to takeoff their glasses so she can see
their whole face.
And so that is my mission momentthat carries me through the
fall.
I hope everyone has a wonderfulThanksgiving.
And it's um on behalf of all ofus at Boundless, I am extremely
(45:49):
grateful for those of you wholisten to this podcast and for
those of you who support ourwonderful mission.
SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
Jody, what a great story.
What a great Halloween memoryand a memory that will last a
long, long time.
Just terrific.
Folks, don't forget you canlearn more about Boundless and
our mission to supportindividuals and families at
IambBoundless.
This is the Nonprofit Leader'sGuy podcast brought to you by
Boundless.
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