#13 - Pastoral Perspectives: Faith, Ministry, and Building Bridges with Nonprofits - The Nonprofit Renaissance

Episode Transcript
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Heredes (00:09):
Well, Colin, what I love about episodes like today
is that we're talking to experts.
We're talking it's not newbies.
These are not like podcasterswho COVID hit.
Now we got to do something.
They've been at it, they'vebeen doing it for a while, for a
while and again with titles.
With titles and 300 plusepisodes, if I'm correct.
If we'll talk about this, Isthat right?

Tim Miller (00:30):
We're inching in on our 300th episode.

Heredes (00:32):
So there's a celebration about to happen, but
with titles such as high numberhighs and shrinking man thighs
playing hooky and unholymatrimony, butts, budgets and
building, and that's just wetyour appetite.

Collin (00:44):
So if you aren't aware.
We never go back and look atany of the.

Andrew Larsen (00:49):
It's not unfortunate.
So, entertaining, that mightmake it more appropriate.
We come up with a title andthen okay, that's funny, and
then never think about it againwho says the funniest thing five
minutes before the show starts?

Tim Miller (00:59):
And that's how we title it.

And so the shrinking man thighs got me.
I wasn't expecting to come backto that at any point in my life
, and there it is.

Heredes (01:07):
It's back today, but introduce her guys, conor.
We're at the nonprofitRenaissance podcast helping you
go further and grow faster.
Who's with us today?

Collin (01:14):
Conor, we got some buddies.
We got Andrew Larson here,excuse me.

Tim Miller (01:18):
Dr, Andrew Larson.
Dr.
You are correct, dr.

Collin (01:22):
Andrew Larson, as of.

I was officially conferred last month.
Hey yo.

Collin (01:28):
See, he uses words like conferred.

Tim Miller (01:30):
He's definitely that's it, he's a doctor.

Collin (01:33):
So is it a doctorate or a PhD?
Because I recently learned thatthose are not the same thing.

They are not the same thing.
They're separate things.

Collin (01:37):
It's a doctor of ministry.
Ah, yes, sir, so I should notcome to you with my fungal
problems.
I mean, I'll take a look.

Okay, but it's not Mostly because I'm curious
your chat's CBT yeah.

Collin (01:49):
Yeah, so that's Andrew, a pastor of Safety Harbor Church
, and then we've also gotanother buddy of mine, tim
Miller.
He's the pastor over atLakeview Lakeview Church, baby
Lakeview Church, and so knownthese guys for a good amount of
time, and they are the hosts ofa two podcast.
One is the Morning AfterMinistry that we just the

(02:13):
Morning After Ministry show.

Heredes (02:15):
First show Come on, Colin.

Collin (02:16):
That's it Show.

Heredes (02:16):
You acted like a fangirl earlier.
Now you're going to come on.
Oh my God.

Collin (02:20):
And then also Practically Pastoring.
You get with three otherpastors every week Every other
week we do so two podcasts thatyou guys are doing.
The both of those are weeklyshows.

Well, we record two episodes of Practically
Pastoring at a Time, but theyplay every week, yeah.
And then we they're both weeklyshows.
We release one every week, but,yeah, it goes out.

Collin (02:41):
So a lot of content generated each week, and you
guys are also pastors, so you'rewriting sermons, you're just
generating a lot of things,practically A lot of stuff.

Heredes (02:52):
I want to start there Because one for our listeners,
whether it's ministry, prayer,church, whether it's non-profits
.
You've been at it for a while.
It wasn't a joke.
You've been doing some content,generating content, podcasts,
multiple podcasts outside ofyour church and your ministry
podcast and all the other stuffyou do.
Like this podcast.
Why and why have you stuck withit?
Why do you keep going back tothe microphone and putting

(03:15):
content out?

Tim Miller (03:16):
I think it's pretty easy for me.
I don't know if Andrew wouldagree or not.
When we first had the idea todo the show, we were looking
really for an excuse to hang outevery week.
That's exactly what I'm sayingwe knew that, hey, we need time.

Mondays are hard.
We don't actually want to doreal work.

Tim Miller (03:30):
Typically for us in ministry, weekends are long and
they're exhausting, so Mondaysare really difficult to get at
ministry land.
So we thought what's a good wayto decompress a little bit and
we know we're not alone.
So we knew our target audiencewas going to be other exhausted
pastors.
So that was kind of the idea ofwhat if we just got together
and hung out every week and wejust did it on a regular basis.

Heredes (03:48):
When it's live.
You're live on Facebook.
You're obviously distributingall platforms.
Tell me it's 2018, I thinkepisode one, and you've been at
it because I think theconsistency is key with things
like this.
You haven't quit.

Collin (04:01):
Have you thought about quitting?
Have you thought about you guysdidn't join the COVID train of?
Well, I guess we might as welljust do a podcast, because we
can't get together.
We're pre-COVID, yeah.

Now practically pastoring came out of COVID land
that season, but now we've beendoing this since 2018.

Heredes (04:20):
Yeah Now.
So help a nonprofit leaderunderstand a little bit of the
pastoral ministry rhythm.
Right, I was like what do youmean?
Monday Dude, monday's hustle,monday 9 am, boom, tell them,
help them understand.
Obviously because this is formultiple layers of leadership in
nonprofit churches or innonprofit.
But that weekend, 52 weeks ayear schedule is a grind.

(04:40):
Help them understand a littlebit about that.

I mean, think about the term paper that you
had due in comp one or WesternCiv, that thing that was looming
at the end of the semester, andhow, the day after that you're
like, whew, I am not doing anyhomework today.
That is 52 Sundays a year.
I tried to explain to teenagerslike, hey, what's your job like
?
I lead our student ministryright now at our church, because

(05:07):
we don't have a youth pastorright now.
And they're like what's yourjob all week?
That paper that you don't wantto write, that's what I do every
week and it's one of the thingsthat I do every week.
One of the things that I doevery that's the thing that
people can see that I do everyweek is I am writing a 3,500
word term paper and it's notjust a teacher coasting that's

(05:29):
grading it.
It is people who are grading itwith their feet, with their
checkbooks, with their kidsinvolvement.
So that means that Mondaymorning is a huge exhale time
while at the same time trying tokind of recoup and get ready to
do it again six days later.

Tim Miller (05:48):
Yeah, so something that we say often in ministry
land is Sunday is always coming.
It's like it's just this weknow in the back of our minds,
no matter what day it is.
It could be Sunday afternoonand we've already thought that
next Sunday is coming again.
So it is that weekly grind.
But Sunday is the day, it's theexhausting day, it's the one
that you've pumped and you'veput the pressure on and you've

(06:09):
done all, hopefully, the prepnecessary, and not just Saturday
night, but all throughout theweek.

I was at a big, big, cool church, if you will,
in Texas, while I was inseminary, and the staff's slogan
was it's the weekend.
Stupid, because it was hey,whatever's coming up, the
weekend is the thing thatmatters.
And that's, I think, a veryshallow and short-sighted way to
look at things but at the sametime, it's true, sunday comes

(06:37):
every seven days.
Whether or not you're preparedto, whether or not you've been
on vacation, whether or notyou've had difficult things,
whether it be counseling orfunerals or whatever else is
happening during the week,sunday is still coming.

Heredes (06:49):
And it's an emotional, spiritual, physical.
We can go down the line,financial depending on whatever,
but it is right.
There's a pull in all thosesenses that Monday morning is.

Tim Miller (07:04):
Yeah, and there's this pressure on Sundays where
you feel like you kind of haveto be on, like you have to be
there to talk to people, tolisten to people and also, by
the way, I'm going to preachpossibly more than one service.
If you have multiple servicesyou've got to be ready to go
back to back.
So it's like that big meetingyou have coming up and that
feeling you have when thatmeeting is over and pastors
describe it like that tobusiness leaders and that

(07:26):
pressure you felt when thatmeeting was looming large.
And there it is and then youcan exhale that's us Sunday
afternoons at like 12.30.

But also when you are in nonprofit, you have a
board of directors and mostchurches have elders or a board
or whatever it is, but you alsohave, however, many board
members that are just sittingand listening.
So it's not.
Hey, I'm looking at the minutes, I'm looking at the results,
but it's the immediate feedback,but also the immediate how
available are you to me?

(07:54):
Because I know that you do this40 hours a week or 50 hours a
week or whatever, but I've got15 minutes that I expect for you
to give me right now, eventhough you've just dumped out
everything that you had.

Heredes (08:08):
Tell us this, and we've talked a little bit about this
topic earlier, but how has itimpacted the podcast on Mondays?
How's it impacted theconnection to the congregation
audience?
Board members, are you filteredon?
Filtered have?
Has any episode not made air oryou're live?
So have you had to Takesomething down?

(08:28):
Let's get real on.
We'll hit the mute button everynow and then We'll hit the mute
button.

Tim Miller (08:33):
I've gotten myself into a little bit of trouble.
Before.
I've had elders call and say,hey, that might have been a
little too much dirt on what'shappening specifically at the
church right now.

Okay, but you, you went through a ridiculous
situation at the church his,it's been years ago, so it's
Tim's.
Mentor senior pastor.
He was the next-gen pastor atthe time, and when you're, when
a senior pastor resigns on GoodFriday, there's usually a story
behind that, and so that's whatTim went through about the time

(09:04):
that we were getting a yearafter, so we started doing the
show in 2018.
This was 2019, so Good Friday2019, tim gets a call.
Hey, as of now, you are theonly pastor on staff.
Wow, get ready for Sundaymorning, which is Easter by the
way.

Collin (09:19):
Yeah.
So we should say for contextyou were.
It had been the youth pastorfor many years and In all the
sudden became the yeah, so I wasyouth pastor, next-gen pastors
basically the same role,different title and then, in
2019, assumed the role of leadpastor.

You assume the role of interim pastor and then
there was on Easter Sunday, andthere were elders who, even
though it had been welldocumented that the the plan was
for Tim to take over when thisother pastor retired, there was
a succession plan place.
Succession plan in place, butthen there were a couple of
elders who were like nah, we'regood, the church has voted on
this, ratified this, this is allclear.

(09:55):
Let's get rid of that.
And some of those things werediscussed, maybe in a little bit
of frustration, but also mestanding up for my buddy, and
Maybe we should have been alittle bit more careful about
discussing.

Tim Miller (10:05):
We could have been a little more careful.
So I had a few, a fewconversations with hey Do you
think it was wise to to go thereon the podcast?
And and I did stand up formyself.
I admitted probably said alittle bit too much at the time,
but I was going through a lot,I needed a chance to talk
through some things and I had agreat community around me.
There there's an elder who's nolonger with us, who is not dead

(10:27):
.

He just quit.
He's no longer with us as achurch.

Tim Miller (10:29):
He suggested that we we actually X the podcast.
He said I don't think it's goodfor you right now and I said,
oh, I, I need the podcast, Ineed that community.

I will let you guess if he was one of the ones
trying to nix the successionplan.

Heredes (10:43):
But we're gonna link it on.
Right here at the bottom ofthis page you can click the link
to that episode.
I'm kidding.

Tim Miller (10:49):
It's not hard.
It's the most listened toepisode.

Collin (10:51):
Oh wow, If you got a little bit of time will just sip
through 300 episodes.

Heredes (10:55):
Well, that brings us topic, because I think there's a
lot of great content out there,a lot of great podcast.
There's, you know, niches andand and lanes.
I mean, how authentic can yoube right with conversations like
this?
There's wisdom.
Are dirty laundry in publicright?
There's a but also I thinkthere's a craving for Real talk,
authentic talk, especially atherapeutic Monday morning after

(11:16):
I'm sure you guys have wrestledwith that, right?

Collin (11:19):
Yeah, well, it's a and you can pretty intuitively tell
usually when someone is notbeing Authentic when they're
putting on some type of mask.
So I mean, yeah, how do youguys navigate that?

Tim Miller (11:30):
Andrew and I will typically like we'll look at
each other and we'll just knowokay, we can go down this topic,
but we can't mention namesright, like because we know that
if you're working at a churchin a ministry position, you have
also been down this road.
We don't even have to give acertain name because you know
that type of person or thatsituation that you've been
through.

So we we try to hit on these situations or
topics that we know You'rewalking through it too, and we
don't even have to givespecifics because you've been
there and we also know that ifwe wait Three weeks on some of
the heavier stuff, we might havebetter perspective and the
person that's listening thisweek to get us in like gotcha,
like ha ha I heard you talkabout that they're not listening

(12:06):
in three weeks because they'vemoved on and so then we can, we
can talk about it then.

Tim Miller (12:10):
Yeah, we have these moments where it's like, okay,
is this okay to talk about now,and so we'll wait a few weeks to
make sure, yeah, that it's dieddown.

Collin (12:16):
We can now Talk this on the show what I imagine with
your audience too that there'sprobably people listening to or
that eventually listen, thatthis is all probably very
helpful with, because maybe theyare experiencing something very
similar and they're a learningOkay, somebody else, someone
else has walked through this butalso maybe insights and like
here's how we went through it orI don't know, just like that

(12:37):
idea of there's somebody elsethat suffered this and knows
when I'm there's definitely asense of camaraderie and we get,
you know, one, two, three Reachout so weak, I'd say, just from
people.

Tim Miller (12:46):
Be like wow, okay, I know that was like a really
dumb part of the show, but I'mjust telling you that's what
we're walking through right nowand then, yeah, we'll have a
chance to have that conversationoutside of the Monday morning
setting and then build arelationship which is really
kind of the.
The point of the show is tobuild relationships Not just
with each other, but with withother, whether ministry partners
, our motto seem Well, whetherwe ever voted on it, I don't

(13:09):
know, but it's just don't, don'tdo ministry alone.

And that's our tag and we kind of both came up
kind of with with Colin as well,in a church that was fortunate
to have a Multi-staff studentministry, and so we cut our
teeth in ministry, like, hey,I'm part of a team.
And then one day we became agrown-up and it's like, oh, it's
me on an island, cool, and the,the vast majority of churches

(13:35):
that's, that's how it is, the.
It's really easy to focus onthe big and the cool and the
loud churches and, thankgoodness for them, people are
getting saved there, they're,they're coming to Christ there,
they're growing in their faiththere.
But the vast majority of thechurches in our country there's
one staff person and there's alot of people that feel like
they are just stuck and there'snobody else that they can go to.

(13:56):
Who is going through, whatthey're going through, and so
kind of what gives us thefreedom to do this?
And if it's a person in thecongregation or a Board member,
who's okay.
Why'd you say that's like?
Well, because we're not talkingto you.
We're talking to the pastorswho are dealing with what we're
dealing with and you are welcometo listen in Because it's
public and it's out there, butit's not for you, it is, it's

(14:18):
for these pastors, yeah, whoneed you know, who need a staff
meeting, who don't have a staffto meet with, that they can kind
of Digest the week and ministrythat was most of those who jump
on the show with us everyMonday Are those who are looking
for a connection and need that,that sense of camaraderie, and
that's that's what we get thesame people commenting every

(14:38):
week because they're lookingforward to that time every week,
right?

Heredes (14:41):
Well, speaking of the connection, authenticity in the
show we're gonna link themorning after ministry show,
we'll talk about practicallyPastoring.
I also want to talk about allthe dirt you know, you know
Colin for years now, so we'lltalk about that.
But about authenticity.
I'm gonna play back somethinghere.
Um, just just in connection tostyle, the demographic, the show
.
Um, this is the intro to theshow and we want to talk a

(15:01):
little bit about thisAuthenticity welcome to the
morning after ministry show acaffeine feud.
Look back on the week andministry that was.

Collin (15:16):
All right so which one of you did that?
Okay, you.

Tim Miller (15:19):
Andrew, you can.
You can go through the storyhere, but there there is a story
behind the intro.
Tell me more.

We had.
We were in Chicago for adenominational conference where
the median age was 39 yearsolder than either of us.
And we had talked about thisthing like, hey, joint, let's do
it, and so we decided we weregonna do it and I Was playing in
garage band and put a fewthings.
You know, that's it's freegarage band.

(15:45):
I love it.

Heredes (15:46):
Whatever, boom, chaka-la-ka, so whatever so, and
and so in the.

The other audio that we have on the show is just
like three or four beats mixedtogether from garage band.
I am the least musical personI've ever met and that's just
playing in garage band.
So we kind of had this idea ofwouldn't it be funny if it
sounded like that?

Tim Miller (16:06):
and there was like this, this almost like 70s.
What was the, what was?

the SNL sketch, sketch the ladies man.

Tim Miller (16:14):
Yeah, idea, yep and.

I Was taking a class at this.
This denominational conferenceis like an in an ordination
transfer thing.
It'll be very boring if we getin that.
But there's a guy in the classwho was sitting at my table for
a week.
We were in a High-it regencybasement for eight hours a day
and it was just so boring.
But he had this deep, boomingvoice which you've heard.

(16:42):
I went up.
Well, yes, because we're atthis table discussing the
theology of the evangelicalcovenant church.
It was just thrilling and Iwent up to him at one of the
breaks.
Like this is going to sound soweird, but can I have you read
this one sentence into my phone?
So we recorded it on anelevator On your phone.

Heredes (17:00):
On my phone in the elevator.

And then this was , you know, pre-air drop, and so
I then plugged my phone intothe laptop and then I think I
dropped it by about a halfoctave, we slowed it down.

Tim Miller (17:13):
We slowed it down To like 80% speed and that's how
we got like the depth that wewanted there.

And I think probably a half dozen times.
We're like are we going toupdate this at some point, and
why no?

Tim Miller (17:24):
Why we can never touch that.

Heredes (17:26):
It's just so ridiculous .

I love it.

Heredes (17:29):
The first time I heard you know an episode.
I'm listening, you guys arekind of breaking in and then,
well, you know you do theintroduction.
It just made me giggle andlaugh, I'm like, and it was
soothing, it was kind of like oh, comforting.

We want to take ministry seriously.
We want to take our callingseriously.
We want to take the people thatGod has entrusted to us
seriously.
We never want to take ourselvesseriously.
I love that.

Heredes (17:49):
Yep, I love that.
No, laughter is good for thesoul.
I think there's joy that comesin.
And so and you guys definitelydo that I highly recommend, if
you're a pastor in ministry, ifyou want to understand, if
you're a leader in wanting tounderstand and get a little
behind the scenes, definitelycheck out the morning after
ministry show and all the linksbelow.
You know, tim and Andrew, let'stalk some leadership and let's
talk some insights here.
I'll let you get rolling.

Collin (18:10):
Yeah, so, and this is the nonprofit renaissance, so we
want to help nonprofits gofurther, go further, grow faster
.
We always I don't think there'sever been an episode where we've
got that right the first time.
But so you I mean as churches,I'm sure you guys partner with
nonprofits.
So what are you looking so forthe nonprofit leader who's

(18:33):
saying, like, who sees churchesare a big partnership
opportunity?
What are you guys looking forin orgs that you partner with?
Like to get your attention andtrust to be like, okay, this is
an org that I want to have myname connected to or that I want
to help, but, like, what areyou guys looking for out of an
org?

Tim Miller (18:52):
What do you say?
For us it's mission and vision.
So when we approach or hearfrom a nonprofit, does it line
up with our mission and visionas a church, which we would
consider ourselves to be gospelfocused and gospel centered.
So typically most of thenonprofits that we align
ourselves with also share in agospel focused, gospel centered
approach.
And there's a process that'snot just you know.

(19:13):
Hey, the pastor wants topartner with that.
We have a board of elders thatwe talk through this with.
We've got a mission outreachteam If it's a missions
organizations that we talk withand we go through this process
and we have this conversation,quite a bit of prayer, and then
we make the decision.

Collin (19:26):
Yeah, and you err on the a little more choosy side,
maybe with, with, oh yeah, no,yeah, we.

Tim Miller (19:33):
we have lots of requests and people reaching out
to us and we do listen and wedo have those conversations, but
we're pretty selective with whowe partner with because I mean,
that's you know, we're puttingour church's name attached to
that organization as well.
So if we're sending our peoplethere to volunteer, to help
serve, then we want to make sureit's a mission slash vision
that we can get behind and thatwe're in line with Sure.

So we can look for yes to everything he just
said, but one caveat that makesthings a little bit different is
our church is in the middle ofa downtown area and there are
organizations that specificallyfocus on downtown safety harbor,
where our church is located.
That may not be Christianorganizations that we'll still
partner with.
You know, we we do somethingnext week called the turkey hoop

(20:18):
shoot, which sounds dangerousLike we're shooting turkeys.
We're not.
Kids are shooting basketball asthey win turkeys.

Collin (20:22):
You're shooting turkeys into hoops.

Yes, and we make them, cook them, and they're
disgusting and covered in gravel.
It's delicious, but no.
So we, we partner with whoeveris partnering with the city of
safety harbor for lots of thingslike that, Sure.
And so I say there's adifferent.
Everything is ministry,absolutely, but maybe not
everything is.
Is gospel ministry.
Not everything is going to, youknow, present Christ to

(20:46):
somebody.
So I think if someone is beingcalled to go to a foreign
country or to go to a specificpeople, that's a different
conversation for us and the waythat we decipher who we're going
to partner with versus someonewho is coming into downtown.
I just think our main partnerin the city of safety harbor is
an organization called theMaddie Williams neighborhood

(21:06):
family center and they feedabout 150 families in downtown
safety harbor a week.
We we could, we could collectcanned food and we could do all
of those things and not make adent compared to what they're
doing.
And so it's easier for us tosay, hey, we are going to trust
that God is going to beglorified in us partnering with
you, and not hey, we need to puta John 3 16 stamp on every box

(21:31):
of spaghetti that we give youfor it to actually be ministry.
So I think that it's just theone caveat, and part of that
comes from us being locatedwhere we are.

Tim Miller (21:41):
Yeah.
I would say with with thegospel focus that we have.
It's it's hands and feet.
So I think that's definitely ahands and feet ministry of
feeding.
We have a feeding to children.
We're the same way like we.
We used to run around food bankyears back and we realized that
there are nonprofits that dothis way better than we could
ever do.
So we partnered with severalnonprofits to help feed kids in
schools and things like that.

Collin (22:00):
Yeah, there's a lot of nonprofits that are that, that
do have that strong faith base.
I'm thinking of, like Metro.
We've I partnered with them asa youth pastor multiple times
but they're not in their face,they're just, they're trying to
help people and so it's.
It's, you know, but you stillknow that you've got that
foundational piece.

Heredes (22:17):
So yeah, I mean I'm still saying, right you know,
whether it's an Andy Stanley ism, we're going to bring him up.
It's the invest and invite orthe that you know that approach.
First let them belong beforethey believe theologically.
Let's open up a kind of wormshere, dr, I'll let I'd love to
doctor go first.
That okay, do you concur?
I concur, cause he's brought upgospel 17 times.

(22:38):
I think you're keeping thegospel word check.

Collin (22:40):
Yeah, yeah, I've got the .
I've got the.
Okay, we got a counter, whichis good news.
Trying to see if I can beatMatt Chandler with it, you're
going to have to get get going.

Heredes (22:47):
It could be.
It's a, it's a Christian term.
It's the good news.
It's also a musical genre True.

It's also what non charismatic people want to
say.
For the Holy spirit, the gospelcompels me where, where?
In Matthew, mark, luke or John,is that compulsion?
No no, no, you're talking aboutthe Holy spirit, but you don't
want to.
That's the one.

Heredes (23:06):
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
Well, I only ask only becausemany times, unless there's that
ultimate alter call presentationof the gospel, folks will
withhold the good or withholdbeing a good Samaritan or
serving or giving.
Because, like well, I rathernot.
Because unless I know thatthey're going to join my church
or we're going to give them thisGideon Bible and they're going

(23:27):
to trust Christ, with this chicktrack in front of me right now,
and I think that's a miss,because then we become unlike
Jesus to a community looking forsomething different.
It's like where are these?
Who are these Christians thatthoughts on that?

This was feeding at least 5,000, if not 15,000 at
a time, and yet he sent out 72.
That's not a very goodconversion ratio.
I am okay being like.

Heredes (23:50):
Jesus, that's good.
So you wouldn't make a notreach top 100 with that?
I don't think no, no that'sokay.

I tell everybody, man, I spent the first 15 years
of my career working at big,cool churches.
I am so good being at a littleneighborhood church.
Do I say it?
I?

Tim Miller (24:09):
dare you Go ahead.

They don't pay you any different.

Tim Miller (24:14):
He's not wrong.

Collin (24:17):
It's, that's is that what you wrote your thesis on no
.

Close.
No, no, but I.

Tim Miller (24:22):
Burnout ministry was his actual thesis.

Collin (24:26):
Hey, right there, right there.

The place of the little church that's actually in
the neighborhood that we saythat we want the people in our
neighborhood, in our community,that might not be churched
people or be churchy people,there's going to come a time and
a point in their lives whenthey're going to need a church,
whether that's for a funeral orbecause God gets ahold of them

(24:53):
in a specific way.
We want them to be comfortablein our space so that when that
moment comes whether that'sbecause of a gospel driven
there's, there's another one foryou, thank you.
I don't know if that's becauseof a gospel driven conversation
with someone from our church orjust because God is using the
circumstances of life to getahold of them.
We don't want it to bedifficult for them to find us,

(25:14):
and so we try to get involved in, in city work and community
work wherever we can, whetherthat's a parade or, you know,
helping kids in underservedneighborhoods win Thanksgiving
dinners for their families,because we trust in the
sovereignty of God and that Godis going to use all things to
glorify himself, whether or notit's on a track.

(25:35):
Love that.

Tim Miller (25:37):
So we don't have the benefit of being in the middle
of a city like you guys do inSan Diego.

We have way better lunch options at Safety
Harbor than Tim does at Lakeview.
He has way better parkingoptions.

Tim Miller (25:47):
We have more parking , we have more traffic.
We have about 46,000 cars thatdrive through right in front of
our church every single day.
So a lot of our partnershipscome from our people presenting
them to us.
Just because we aren't in themiddle of a community, we're off
a pretty busy street, so we dohave to have a vetting process
because we have a lot of peoplewanting to do a lot of things,
which we could have our hand ina lot of things, but we'd rather

(26:09):
do a few of those things reallywell.
So that also plays a big partof it.

Collin (26:13):
Yeah, on the lunch options topic, it's called
Lakeview Church, not for noreason.
It's because you're next to alake and also it's really cool.
If you look them up, go findphotos, you're like your whole
it's glass, it's all glasspretty much.

Tim Miller (26:29):
It's almost it's three sides glass.
So when I'm preaching, no one'spaying attention.
The only thing they can seebehind me is the lake it's a
beautiful lake.
There's often a gatorfrolicking in the lake while I'm
preaching.

Collin (26:40):
So that's what I was gonna ask.
So there's gators in there, I'dassume that means there's also
fish.
I mean, that seems like a goodlunch option, potentially.

Tim Miller (26:47):
Turkey, a lot of Turkey, and wild boar has been
the latest nuisance.
So we have hunters hunting theboar as we speak and they get to
keep whatever it is theycapture.

Collin (26:57):
What kind of wild animals are roaming around?
In downtown Safety Harbor wehave a lot of cats, other than
some of the people.

We have a lot of dogs that come to church.

Tim Miller (27:07):
We started the reason they opened up an outdoor
service.

Heredes (27:10):
Like DAWGD.
No, no, no canines Like my dog.

So Safety Harbor, it's kind of a I say it's
granola, it's kind of crunchy,which is the fancy way for
saying affluent white but not alot of Trump hats.
And so they were more COVID,cautious than lots of other
communities might have been.
And so Christmas Eve 2020.
And the we only have one of ourthree sides is glass.

(27:36):
We don't have like a lobby thatyou walk into and then walk
into the worship center.
You walk into the worshipcenter, but the whole front of
the building is glass.
So if you're outside of ourbuilding, you can look in and
see what's going on in thebuilding.
And so we put a TV on the frontstoop on Christmas Eve 2020,
that plugs into our ATEM videosplitter, and so whatever is

(27:57):
being seen on our live stream isalso being seen on a TV on the
front stoop, and that peoplekept coming, so we kept putting
it out there, and so now, mostSunday mornings, we'll have, you
know, 12 or 15 people and theirdogs outside.

Collin (28:09):
I'll just say I thought you, I thought you were going
the direction that.
It's just, it's just like 12dogs.

Tim Miller (28:13):
It's all animals on the outdoor service.

Heredes (28:15):
So it's Charlie Brown Christmas.
I think that would be there.

Yeah, it's really kind of funny.

Heredes (28:20):
What's the ratio of glass to salary per building in
your staff Like so?
More glass, more salary, betterpay.

It sounds a little bit.
Yeah, okay, cool, tim's gotmore glass.

Heredes (28:28):
We're going to send this to your board just to make
sure.

Yes, but going back to choosing nonprofits,
yeah.

Heredes (28:34):
I'll tell you what makes it.
Oh no, that's his way of like.
Please cut that out.

No, no, I'll say it's really easy for me.
I could be completelytheologically and mission,
mission, that's not a wordMissionally.

Heredes (28:48):
Yeah, doctors can make up their words and we have to
believe it.

Yes, that's true, theologically and missionally
aligned with somebody and belike hard pass.
No way, because so yeah.
Why.
There are so many nonprofitsthat are so pushy.
There's something about a lotof nonprofits that say, hey,
this is what I'm passionateabout as a follower of Jesus.

(29:11):
This is something that I amcalled to do.
Therefore, if you are notcalled to do the thing that I'm
called to do, you must not befollowing Jesus, and I don't
know that any of themnecessarily would articulate
that, but I could list four orfive organizations that every
time they reach out to me, thatis what I get.

Collin (29:30):
What do you mean?
It's clear, it's obvious.

You're not giving me 10 minutes on a Sunday
morning, you know, a half anhour after I've met you, Don't
you think that we need to dothis?
And you can put whatever causeyou think is in there.
And everybody listening to thiscould think of three or four
organizations that are way toopushy about that cause.
And I wish I had a form letterto just send to some of these

(29:55):
nonprofit people that reach outthat says I absolutely affirm
God's calling your life for thiscause.
It is not the only cause thatthe church is called to.
In fact, it might distract fromthe greater cause that the
church is called to.

Collin (30:12):
So I was gonna ask, so you know, if there is a
nonprofit that may not be haveas strong of a faith foundation,
but it's really.
Their drive is just communitybased.
I wanna, I have a heart forwhatever this thing is.
Which of those organizationsprobably has a better chance of

(30:33):
partnering with you?
The one who's maybe not asfaith based or the one who is
faith based, but they'reObnoxious, obnoxious.

Definitely the less obnoxious option.

Tim Miller (30:44):
Yeah, we had this scenario hit us a couple of
years ago and we had a nonprofitreach out and they wanted to
pull off a big event at ourchurch.
They were not faith based, butthey were real big on community
and wanted to do somethingawesome for the community.
And we have 36 acres atLakeview so we had the room to
pull it off and it was just oneof those opportunities that we
thought.
You know what?
We're not gonna be preachinghere, we're not gonna be passing

(31:04):
out tracks, there's not gonnabe any Bibles handed out, but we
can open up our space, we caninvite our church people and
they can invite the rest of theTrinity community to come on out
.
And it was the most wellattended event that's ever
happened on our church property.
And it was all because anonprofit reached out to us and
just said hey, we'd love topartner with you and use your
space.
And it was just a really sweetpartnership, even though it
wasn't you know, it wasn'tnecessarily a Christian event.

There was no altar call.

Tim Miller (31:28):
There was no altar call, there were no tracks, but
yeah, it's possible.
Wow, no spontaneous baptisms,and people did show up on Sunday
, though it was one of thoselike events where typically no
one ever shows up to churchafter that, but we actually had
a few families that did come tochurch after an event like that,
which was rare.

Heredes (31:41):
I love that.
It's great, great insight,cause I think there's a level of
passion right that will inspireand actually connect, but it
can cross the line.
And there's a level of passionthat becomes pushy, like you
said, and will, you know, breakor, you know, push someone away.
And I do think, for those ofyou listening, I think that's a
good and trying to be, you know,square, pegging around, whole.
If the missions don't align, ifthe don't don't force

(32:04):
yourselves into, and I thinkchurches need to be okay with
not feeling guilt.
It's like, yeah, maybe I don'tneed to do blank, I don't need
to do what everybody else isdoing.
What's God calling you know,your local neighborhood church,
to do and align with you?

Tim Miller (32:17):
know internally and externally.
I think Andrew brings up agreat point too, because I've
often been guilted into this andlike if you could just stop,
like that would be great, likewe don't need more pressure or
more guilt.
Trying to be I mean trying tojust throwing on us Like the
what do you mean I can't havemore time on a Sunday morning
with you, but like if you were abit more relational and
conversational and I don't know,bought me a lunch like I might

(32:39):
be more open to More open toTopgolf.

Shout out to Adore of Hope.

Tim Miller (32:43):
Hey, that was such a sweet event that nonprofit took
.
They invited every pastor inthe area and just said hey,
we're gonna pitch ourorganization and we're gonna buy
you lunch and you're gonna playTopgolf for two hours.

Collin (32:54):
Like that was awesome yeah it was so sweet and I'm
probably far more effective thanwas guilting somebody into hey,
you're a church, you gotta dothis.

Far more effective than the email I got
two months ago that said hey,you haven't responded to my past
email.
Are you even pro life?

Tim Miller (33:10):
I got the same one.

I got the same which means that somebody in
their strategy session has saidhere's what you do If a pastor
doesn't reply to the first twoemails.
You send them this so that theyfeel guilted into replying
because unfortunately the entrylevel position in so many
nonprofits it's basically anoutside sales job and yikes,

(33:32):
yikes.

Heredes (33:34):
Big yikes and probably AI, generating some of those
crappy emails now, which ishorrible.

I hope so.
I hope that was.

Heredes (33:42):
I'm pro life, but am I anti?
Yeah, you got the center buttonon this, one or no?

Collin (33:48):
No, not on this one, but in post.
In post, I promise I'll do it.

Heredes (33:53):
No, I love that Again.
Just to get practical and I'llresay this because you're gonna
have a fun time editing this onebut to get practical on tips
for nonprofits, there'severything from the convoys of
hope where join us on a cruisefor a week and we're gonna tell
you everything about this, whichlisten for a pastor who's
hustling 52 weeks a yearprobably can't get that.
Yeah, there's a strategy thatworks, that's encouraging,

(34:17):
that's inspiring and that alsowill cast vision.
The golfing or the simple lunch, relational conversation and no
pressure.
I may not hear from you for sixmonths a year, but I'm here.
This is what we do.
Some pro tips.
Give us some pro tips.
You're on the receiving end ofthe sales emails, of the texts,
of the mailers, of the give ussome more tips on the folks

(34:38):
listening who are looking toaccess to your congregation.
Sometimes the same dollars,sometimes the same stage, space
part, whatever it is.
So there's a competition here,for you know, for that resource.
We all want to do good things.
We all want to get the gospelto people.
We all want to feed families.
We all want to make a dent Talkto us.
Give us some pro tips.

I think the word resource is.
That you just said is the wordis what you need to focus on.
How can I be a resource to thiscongregation?
Some congregations need this,this and this resource and some
don't, and so find thecongregations that you can
actually be a resource for, andthat's where you will have more
success.

Heredes (35:19):
Adding value yeah.
Actually adding value to youfirst right, and then you're not
like what can they do for me?
So what can we do for you?
Fair, absolutely.

Because every church has whatever mission
organizations that they partnerwith.
And then when you adddenominational churches in there
, that is my favorite rejectionline.
If someone is reaching out likeI don't want to, this is not a
group that I want to partnerwith.
Hey, our denomination has awing that handles this and we
are committed.
You know, x percent of ourbudget boom towards

(35:48):
denominational causes.
So sorry, we're good there.
Now we could wiggle thingsaround and make something else
happen.
If you were someone who Ipersonally felt like, hey, this
is worth bringing to the elders.
This is where and any of ourelders can do this this is not
me gatekeeping the church, butout of relationship and value.

(36:08):
A relationship, and what isgoing to make life better for
people in my church and what isgoing to make life easier for me
to provide this resource to thecommunity.

Tim Miller (36:17):
Yeah, we can resource your family and say
we've got a great resource foryour staff.
Those are two big keys for me.
I'm like, okay, that's one lessthing I have to worry about and
you can actually help me inthis area.
I'm listening.
So that's real big for us aswell.

Collin (36:30):
It's also a way to prove that, hey, we actually do have
something to value by partneringwith you.
You know it's.
We're not just trying to getwhatever you have.
It's like we can.
This can be an ongoing thingwhere we were consistently
providing value.

Heredes (36:41):
I want to jump on this because one, we don't want to
set the vision that, well,churches aren't on profit as
well, and we're talking tononprofits who sometimes look at
the church as their only sourceof volunteers, of resources,
but churches are non-profits.
So there's a tension there thatyou're kind of talking about
the same people the same time,the same right, talents,

(37:02):
treasures.
Talk to us a little about that.
People, volunteers.
Any hesitation Do you just like?
Oh, here's my, here's my rollcall, here's my CRM.

Collin (37:12):
Just jump in my.
Here's the list of a thousandpeople you can call.

Heredes (37:15):
Why wouldn't you do that?
I'll answer that for you.
And how can organizationsunderstand that in partnering
with churches and kind ofbuilding that relationship?

Tim Miller (37:27):
Well, our volunteers only have so much time on their
hands, and we already ask a lotof them, and Sunday is still
coming every seven days andSunday is always coming.
So when you're asking forvolunteers, it's going to be a
big ask and we better have areal big window here.

(37:47):
We're looking for volunteersway down the road.
We've had some that are like,hey, we've got this event coming
up this weekend.
I'm like, bro, like had youtold me six months ago and I
could have given you that thatmission team leader or that the
head of that area or thatministry, I would have put you
in touch with them months ago.
But this like and I get these alot like these last second
we're looking for hands, we'relooking for help and it's like

(38:08):
we want to be there.
But you got to like let us knowin advance and talk to us.
But really, I try to protect ourvolunteers as much as possible.
I try to protect my staff, Itry to protect our volunteers.
So when there are greatopportunities, yeah, we'll let
them know.
But when it's like, okay,there's a lot happening right
now and this is going to be onemore thing that's possibly going
to lead them to burnout, thenthe answer is probably going to

(38:29):
be no.

Collin (38:30):
Yeah.
And that's where mission andvalues alignment, I think, comes
in and is so key is that if you, if you have you know, if your
mission is very much alignedwith the church, it's a lot
easier to say, hey, this will bea valuable thing for you to
push to your people to say, hey,come and be a part.
I know as a church my church wedo a few things where it's like
, hey, let's go serve togetherand we don't give everyone the

(38:52):
opportunity to do that.
Right, there's some works thatwe've built a relationship with
and it's like, hey, we're goingto go do this as a church and so
, again, that's a communitybuilder.
But you know, it's going to bea lot easier to do that, I think
, when you've got that alignmentthere.

Alignment and then value add.

Collin (39:06):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
So volunteers we're talking alot about volunteers.
Orgs need them, non-profit orgsneed them.
That's how they run, that's howthey do what they need to do.
So, thinking of the non-profitorg, how do they reach, recruit,
retain volunteers effectively?
I'm assuming that you guys havea little bit of knowledge of

(39:27):
that as well, because that'spretty much how a lot of what
happens on a Sunday happens aswell.

Heredes (39:33):
Well, they're podcasts, right.

Collin (39:35):
There's like 16 volunteers running the back end
of that whole thing.
Yeah for sure, volunteers,volunteers.

Heredes (39:40):
Engineers, producers makeup alone is like three.

Collin (39:42):
Well, someone's got to be doing the palm fronds.

Heredes (39:43):
Yeah.

That's true.
Go after people that noteverybody else is going after.
That's the best way to getvolunteers.
We had a guardian-adulatumgroup come to our church and it
was hey, here's what we needhere, the children in the foster
care system right in ourimmediate area.
And they made a pitch to prettymuch exclusively retired people

(40:07):
in the church and everybodythat wants to come.
Hey, we need people to swinghammers, we need people to sweat
, we need people to do this.
And it was, hey, retired people.
This is we need two hours aweek.
And she was like I think wemight have had like 95-ish
people there that Sunday and 17signed up to be
guardian-adulatums and wentthrough the whole process and I

(40:29):
got a letter from her a coupleof weeks later.
This is the biggest percentageof any audience we've ever had.
Yeah, wow, yeah, because you'regoing after someone that not
everybody's going after.
Go after the teenagers here inFlorida.
Every kid needs bright futures,volunteer hours.
So, yeah, it would be great tohave a 38-year-old engineer who

(40:53):
wants to design and buildsomething for you, but that guy
has a wife, three kids and isexhausted and a job where he's
doing that.
And a job and a golf game andall the other things.
So go to either end of theadult spectrum the young adults
that, whether they needexperience, they need volunteer

(41:14):
hours, wonderful or the peoplethat have kind of been
overlooked.
Oh, you used to be awesome.
You're still awesome.
Maybe you're not swinging thehammer the way that you used to,
but you can serve Absolutely.

Tim Miller (41:27):
Yeah, for us, when it comes to recruiting, we try
to.
I mean, it's not that we don'tpush it from stage, but we don't
really push it from stage.
We haven't seen a lot of greatresults because there was a time
in my ministry life where itwould be hey, we need more kids
ministry volunteers.
Well, we know, let's get ourkidsmen director on stage and
ask for volunteers and forwhatever reason, that just never
really worked.
I would get the social mediagraphics.

(41:49):
Hey, can you post this on thesocials?
That's how we're going torecruit more volunteers.
We need a new drummer.
Can you post this?
And it just for our context.
Rarely worked.
So we came up with an ideabecause we don't really have a
four year at our church we havewhat we would call a narthex.

Collin (42:05):
You have a hallway.

Tim Miller (42:06):
It's a hallway, so we ended up paving in our garden
area and we invited ministryleaders to start setting up
tables just to talk to people asa way to get to know them, get
to know different ministryleaders and to recruit.
And we have found the successrate is far greater than any
stage announcement, than anysocial media posts.
It's one-on-one conversations.

(42:26):
Hey, here's the need, and ourkids ministry team does such a
great job of hey, let meactually walk you into our space
.
And so she'll grab a potentialvolunteer.
They'll go into the kidsministry space before or after
service and just show themaround and give them some ideas
and what their specific needsare.
And we did a big ministry fairvolunteer push a few weeks ago

(42:47):
and I said a few words fromstage but the push was not hey,
here's to hear the signups.
It was hey, here's our ministryleaders, they're going to be
out there on your way out.
Well, you just walk by and sayhello and see where you might
fit in.
And it was the single greatestday of signups we've ever had
and it was just thoseface-to-face connections.
Now, it required a lot of workbetween our deacons and our
ministry leaders because we hadto have them there and their

(43:08):
teams had to be there.
But when they're there andthere's a face to that ministry
and it's not just a card there'sactually a person talking to
them.
We've seen great success whenit comes to volunteer
recruitment.

So scan the QR code on the screen if you want
to volunteer is not what you'resuggesting.
It sucks.

Tim Miller (43:22):
Every now and then we'll get a person, but when we
really need volunteers, we haveministry leaders out there
greeting people and saying helloand letting them know.
Here's the need.

Collin (43:32):
So for a nonprofit who usually doesn't have a weekly
meeting space, synthesize thatfor them.
How do they put that intopractice?
How do they that principle youjust talked about, what do they
do with that?
Go to where the people are yeahthat's it yeah.

Find where the people that you are trying to
reach are and actually talk tothem.
If you can have a conversation.
That's not a pitch.
It's going to make the pitch somuch easier.

Collin (43:59):
I mean so if a nonprofit leader came to you and just
said hey, all we're asking foris a little bit of space in your
lobby, or Narthex, becauseeveryone knows that word, it's
an old one.
Yeah, I actually I.

Google it, it's not a stage.

Collin (44:15):
It's the chance, same thing, yeah, because it's a
separate chamber, porch ordistinct area at the Western
entrance.
Is that the Western entrance ofyour church?

It is.

Collin (44:23):
Yeah, actually it really is.
It's a real Narthex.

Tim Miller (44:26):
From the Renaissance crew.

Collin (44:28):
That's why this is how you get on the nonprofit
Renaissance podcast.
We have our Narthex at yourchurch.
Hey, I know of a greatarchitect.

He's up in Tarpan Springs.
Stop it.
He might have been that elderwe were talking about earlier
Stop it.

Heredes (44:41):
We'll put a link to his website down below.

Collin (44:44):
So if they came to you and they said they're asked to
you was not hey, give usvolunteers.
But it was hey, give me alittle bit of space.
We want to come set up a table,just have some information and
just to talk like, is that a yes, is that a no?
How do you respond to that?

Tim Miller (44:58):
I think it's on Meet your Topgolf, if we can talk
about it, that's true I lovethat one, but actually that is a
big yes for us, most of ournonprofits that we partner with.
When they do come to Lakeviewthey end up getting a little
table.
They have some space rightoutside our ministry leaders and
we'll plug them from stage.
They make sure you go seeeither a missionary or a mission
organization or that nonprofitsay hello, introduce yourself.
Low risk, high reward.

(45:18):
Ask right there, yep Especiallyif they bring coffee or say
hello.
I was going to say, and we'vehad a few that say, hey, can we
bring donuts, and those areawesome.
We love that A little sugar man.

Heredes (45:27):
Caffeine goes a long way, of course, goes a long way.

Makes me wish that Chick-fil-A was open on
Sunday just for the chickenminis.
Could you imagine if we couldbring chicken minis to church?
We would get so many volunteers.
You'd have to freeze them.
That's terrible.
Don't do that.

Heredes (45:38):
Is that an idea?
I was a college student righthere, became a millionaire
selling Chick-fil-A on Sundays.

Tim Miller (45:44):
It's a great idea that happened New York.
That happened.
I read something I think Iheard this story, something,
yeah.

Heredes (45:50):
Then he started yep, get them.
End of the day, I think theycanceled him, but that's what.

Collin (45:54):
I heard Sure, they did the episode.
We won't talk any more aboutthat.

Heredes (46:00):
I want to dive into a little bit of all the dirt you
have on Colin.
Oh geez, now, wait, tell meabout the internship you guys
you interned at.

Collin (46:09):
Marks Hill, correct?
Yeah, so I did an internshipout in Seattle at Mars.

Heredes (46:13):
No, did you meet a?

Collin (46:13):
small tiny church out there in Seattle not.

Heredes (46:16):
I've heard well, I've heard about the rise and the
fall.

Tim Miller (46:18):
Yeah, yeah yeah did you hear about the?

rise of that was because of Colin.

Collin (46:24):
No, yeah, I did my work over that.
I did some, I did today.

Tim Miller (46:28):
It's not that he came back a changed man, but he
came back with a really foulmouth, like his language was
just beyond.

I didn't want to bring it up.
I'm glad you did there.
That's what I want to talkabout.

Tim Miller (46:36):
Don't, even Colin, don't.

He was like it's cool to cuss at church.
Now I'm so confused.
What the bleep are you talkingabout?

Collin (46:46):
I'm glad.

A little bit now, and now he's just using bleeps
you guys, all you guys all madea rehab.

Heredes (46:53):
Yes, yep, he can submit every have after Martins Hill
for, apparently.

Collin (46:57):
But but we do share.
We do share a large internshipLike it, like a see, I don't
know.

I mean, I was never technically an intern, I
was a volunteer who then gothired and then got fired.
So you're an intern.

Collin (47:08):
That's Most places where they're gonna say it or not
yeah, I don't.
So yeah, we've got that history.
I don't again.
No dirt.
I don't know what you'retalking about.

I mean, I'm way older than Colin is, though
that's what you need to realizeI was.
I Think you were maybe like afreshman when.
I was the middle school pastor.

Heredes (47:28):
Yes, yes I guess I don't mind you faster.
No, don't be nervous, Let himtalk please.

Collin (47:35):
Hey guys, thank you so much siblings and I.

Collins sister was one year behind me in a
little private school whereeverybody knew everybody's
business, Yep.
And then his brother was on myflag football team for years
that Colin later joined.

Collin (47:51):
I was just gonna say don't leave me out, we were the
purple pandas.
Yeah, we were.

I.

Collin (47:56):
War and did and do we ever win a?

do we ever win a title?
No, but I wore head to toespandex man.
Those are the.
And was not built for spandex.
It was not a good look, it was.
This is ridiculous and I'mgonna lean into it.

Heredes (48:09):
Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, because I said
the title of this podcastexactly built for, oh yeah.

Collin (48:16):
Yeah, okay, well, I knew the competitive side of Colin.

Tim Miller (48:21):
We we did several summer camps together and and at
this particular camp there wasalways the, the big dodgeball
tournament.
It was just it.
Of course it was a big deal likewe took it serious as youth
workers, as students, and I'llnever forget one, one match in
particular where Colin's teamwent a bit over the top and it
was.
It was a bit much.

(48:41):
We may or may not have had tohave a little conversation with
that, that competitive edge, andI hope you didn't lose.
I hope you've never lost yourcompetitive edge.
I hope you.

Remind me.
I don't think he remembers this.
Oh, there's a lot.

Tim Miller (48:54):
There may have been multiple headshots with young
middle schoolers and you werenot a middle schooler at the
time, it was well.
That's just part of the game.

Collin (49:02):
That's just what you're signing up for.
Oh boy, it's called dodgeball.
If you can't do it, don't play.
You know, dodge, I can't diethe referees were not his
friends.

Tim Miller (49:10):
He knew all the right calls.
They knew none of the rightcalls and that's not just a
language, that's.
After that oh.

Heredes (49:20):
Man, so I'm a great person is what we're trying to
say Trying to communicate hereit's a common, the common boost
episode just trying to keeptalking about your calling.
Oh man, you sweating bro.
Why you sweating?

Collin (49:36):
It's really red.
I'm sweating because it'sactually really warm in here.
Are you guys warm?
I'm warm, I'm always warm.

I am severely overweight and I feel fine, so
I'm not sweating.
I think it must be yourconscience fair enough, well
then, I start talking about.

Collin (49:51):
Just get out of here.

Heredes (49:53):
And in temperatures.
I want to go back to ministryburnout, okay, and and what.
That is what that means.
So you spent some time divinginto this.
I did a lot of time.
Very relevant, I want to saytrending, but very Real, real
topic that doesn't get talkedabout.
Tons get avoided.

(50:13):
Maybe some things have come tolight as a recent you know,
maybe after 2020 some ministrytendencies have changed or have
been looked into.
Tell us a little bit more.
What was your angle?
Did it?

it was a from personal experience a little bit
, but also just knowing thecommunity that we have.
So it, the, I think the.
It's only been a couple months.
I'm like what was the topic ofthat thing?
But it was digital resourcesand virtual communities as a
ways to combat ministry burnout,and so it was post post covid.
Ministry staffs have gottensmaller.

(50:46):
Doesn't matter if you are atSince we're talking marsill you
know obviously that staff hasgotten smaller.
But, by a hundred percent.

Collin (50:54):
Yes but?

but whether you are at the, the big cool church
or the Neighborhood church,ministry staffs and most
ministry budgets are smallerthan they were, and so if you
are on a ministry staff of sixor seven, you're probably on a
ministry staff of four or fiveright now.
And if you had budgets to go toone or two conferences a year

(51:15):
where you would reconnect withyour buddies from seminary or
bible college or wherever, thatconference probably doesn't
exist right now and if it does,you can maybe go to one or two.
So pastors are lonelier thanever before.
Like New York, the New YorkTimes did a big like Sunday
morning piece on the reality ofpastors leaving ministry at an

(51:38):
alarming rate and especiallyMillennial pastors Leaving
ministry at an alarming rate,which means who is there to take
up the mantle?
Because the boomers are retiring, the millennial pastors are
saying I'm, I'm out, and theanswer seems to be and of course
my research was very biasedgoing in because it was here's
what I think is working, becauseI I'm at, I am on a church

(52:01):
staff of one and I'm notstruggling with this right now
because I have a community ofother pastors, and so it was.
Pastors need people that theycan be in community with.
They need people that they'rejob does not depend on, and I
think we've all served in roleswhere there was church hurt and

(52:22):
there was frustration and youcouldn't go to your boss Because
your boss was the one causingthe church hurt and the
frustration.
And so pastors need otherpastors at a similar life stage
that they can go to, that Cansupport them, that can give
advice and that will not firethem.

Heredes (52:37):
And if you put it on a podcast, they may even listen to
it.
On monday, they might evenlisten to it and be like wait,
Are you talking about me?

Yes, we were talking about that.

Collin (52:45):
Have you ever gotten?
Questions like hey, you saidsomething.
Yeah, I'm just curious where?
Yeah, absolutely so, not, notfrom a pastor.
Is that what you said?
Yeah, and.

I'm like yeah, that was absolutely yeah, every
time we've had one where we weretalking about people, people
leaving the church and you know,are they ghosting or or what's
going on?
So I had someone who had left afew and I knew why they left.
They called the next week andlike, hey, we got let's, let's
talk about what we're not there.
I wasn't talking about you, Iwas talking about another.
You know, somebody else thatleft for a very different, less

(53:12):
important reason.

Tim Miller (53:13):
I'm sorry you feel so guilty.
I'm sorry, yeah, but I'm sorry,your conscience says that you
have violated that membershipcovenant.

Not contract, not form, that membership covenant
that you made, and then you justghosted us.
It's cool, whatever.
Now.

Heredes (53:26):
We'll say you guys must you have to be somewhat careful
and disciplined to not be superpassive, aggressive Monday
morning.
So today we're going to talkabout the non tithing Um you
know?

you know who you are, or the?
Have you ever noticed that thefamilies that take the most
ministry resources give theleast?
What's up with that?

Heredes (53:43):
What in the world?
Yeah, statistics outside offlorida, of course, say that
that's gotta be, that's gotta bechallenged, because I mean, I'd
be tempted, I'd be tempted tocall out that frustration or
that, whatever, whatever, fromwardrobe to freaking the thing
that works really well is wetext, probably like teenage
girls, I mean, throughout theweek.

I'll like try to find something that we had said
For the Monday previous'spodcast and I'll take like 10
minutes of scrolling to find theshow notes from last Monday on
this Monday, and so whateverFrustrations he's dealt with
during the week, or vice versa,we typically know and so there
have been times that I havebrought up what he's struggling
with, struggling with and withjust enough plausible

(54:28):
deniability that they mightthink that I'm talking about me
and vice versa.

Tim Miller (54:32):
We have done that.
We've also.
We've also done it in such away where we thought we weren't
going to talk about it, but oneof us would bring it up and the
other one would know exactlywhat we were talking about, just
just to mess with the person.
But I think what helps is wekeep each other in check.
So there will be times rightbefore we go on the show We'll
say, okay, here, here's thetopic, and then one of us will
say, yeah, that's too soon.
This is what we can't talk aboutand we'll have a list of things

(54:53):
not to talk about, becausethat's just not again.

That's the, that's the community, that.
I'm talking about when I say youknow, pastors need Communities,
whether virtually or or face toface, so that when a microphone
is in front of their face theydon't Vent because they've had
that conversation.
They've been able to processthat within their community of

(55:15):
People who are in the sameministry stage and in the same
life stage and just get it.
We have we call a group offriends that, we have the
ministry frat and we have fratparties with our wives and kids
and it's like, hey, we don'thave to, we don't have to behave
there's 17,000.

Heredes (55:32):
So, a lot of, there's a lot of it.
Sign up for rush week now.

The link below.
But but it's so nice that wedon't have to feel like we're on
because they had this, you know, either a really good or really
bad week, like we had a reallygood or bad week and it's not
like hey, this guy's complainingor this guy's bragging because
we, we've had weeks like that.
And so I think and this is truefor any ministry leader,
whether that's church,vocational ministry or nonprofit

(55:59):
ministry you need people.
God created us to be incommunity and if you are
isolated, you're going to besnarky and you're going to be
bitter and you're going to burnout.

Heredes (56:10):
Talk to me, talk to me and talk to the millennial
leader, the millennial pastorthat's thinking about quitting,
thinking about dropping it, fedup.
He's watched one too manyyoutube reviews and have seen
one too many fall or step intofor the wrong.
What would you say?
Because I think we, we needgodly Called leaders from this

(56:30):
gen.
We need the boomers to mentor,we need the gen xers to Chill
out you know we need the gen, ygen, all the gents I mean.
I think what would you say tothe generational and the ones
coming up and quitting?

Find someone a life stage ahead of you.
Find someone a life stagebehind you.
Find out from the one ahead ofyou why they stayed and give the
person behind you a reason tostay because it's really good.
The we are guaranteed that thegates of hell are not going to

(57:03):
prevail against the church.
The church now, if you need tosay, if you need to leave for
the health of your family oryour marriage or whatever, by
all means fine, the church isgoing to do.
Fine, the church is going tosurvive without you.
But talk about job security.
I mean every nonprofit that weare talking to on on this
podcast right now is going tocease to exist in the next 50,

(57:23):
60 years.
That's, that's the nature ofnonprofits.
The church is not Whether thesame church with the same title
in the same pastor.
Sure, all that's going tochange.
But we are promised that thegates of hell are not going to
prevail against the church.
So that is something worthsticking it out for in an
organization Worth dealing withthe heartache and the hurt and

(57:45):
the hiccups and whatever other hwords you want to use that
describe the people that make itup, and the burnout issue is
going to happen, whatever yourjob is, if you're unhealthy in
church, you're going to beunhealthy in corporate.
You're going to be unhealthy innonprofit spaces, wherever you
find yourself.
If you're not healthy, you'regoing to be unhealthy wherever

(58:06):
you end up.
So, of all of the places that Iwould choose to seek health, it
would be the church.
It would be the organizationthat I know is going to exist
way, way, way beyond my life.

Heredes (58:21):
You want to chime in.
I did have a comment before youchime in here, because I do
think that's an important point.
It's easy to blame the church,that organization, for the
burnout, and again, they'reimperfect, imperfect people.
But your workaholism, yourhabits will go with you wherever
you go, whether you end up at a4 or 500, at a nonprofit or at

(58:44):
the public.

Or Arby's yeah.

Heredes (58:47):
And I think then we love to deconstruct and point at
the church.
Oh bad, the church fried me.
It wasn't perfect.
There's a lot of again.
I'm not a cop out for badleadership and for bad because
that will go right with youwherever you go.
And if you don't handle that,you're just creating a cycle
that will repeat itself.

Tim Miller (59:05):
Yeah, and I think what happens with some of these
guys that I've talked topersonally, who've reached out,
who've gone through this intheir context, is they have this
idea that, well, I just got tofind the right church and so
they'll bounce from church tochurch and I'm just like, when
you find it, let me know.
Like it's just not.
There's no such thing as aperfect church.
There's going to be problems,there's going to be issues.
So, yeah, there's someintrospection that needs to be
done.
But my question for these guysis always tell me about the

(59:28):
community that you've surroundedyourself with outside the
church.
So what pastors, what ministryleaders, who are you regularly?

talking to?
Who are the three people thatyou are texting the most?

Tim Miller (59:38):
And more often than not they don't have a list Like
because there's outside of theirchurch, they have no one like
and there's their.
In lies the problem.
You have not had a chance toprocess this with anyone outside
of your organization.

Collin (59:50):
I don't know that I've met someone that that would say
they've been through burnout,who has had that right They've.
They've had those people thatthey know to they.
I can go to with this.
I'm not going to be judged, I'mnot like, I'm just going to be
cared for.
I don't know if I've ever metsomeone who's burned out when
that's in place.

Andrew Larsen (01:00:09):
Some just had a really crappy ministry week,
Like I don't know when this isairing, but you know, death of a
child in the church, crappyministry week and the funeral
was yesterday.
And I mean, how many churcheswere represented at that funeral
?
I mean, I know I wasn't therebut we were as a congregation
were praying for the churchyesterday.

(01:00:30):
And it's when you look at theNew Testament.
And then there were nodenominations in the New
Testament.
There were not you know, first,second, third, fourth Baptist
church in every town in the NewTestament.
So it was a little bitdifferent because there's one
group of believers per town forthe most part, maybe not in Rome
, but we don't.

Heredes (01:00:50):
Well, Paul would say no , here we are in a New Testament
survey with Andrew but.

Tim Miller (01:00:53):
Dr Andrew, yeah, you're definitely.

Thank you.
But the church was connected.
They, they were praying foreach other.
The leaders knew each otherthere.
They were corresponding witheach other and we we live in
such a time now that thechurches down the street from
each other don't know each otherbecause they see each other's
competition.
When I said I spent 15 years inlike big, cool churches, it's
so nice being at the little kindof under resourced church,

(01:01:18):
because when somebody inevitablyleaves and goes to the mega
church down the street becausethere's this program for their
kids or there's this recoveryprogram or whatever it might be,
it's like hey, good, freak,like good.
We are not in competition withthem.
We are on the same team.
We're fulfilling a slightlydifferent role.
But when pastors see each otheras competition, there's not
going to be community.
But when pastors see each otheras co laborers for the glory of

(01:01:42):
God and yes, your methods mightbe different than my methods,
but our goal is God's glory Thenthat's how community gets
formed and that's how reallysilly podcasts start.

Collin (01:01:53):
Thank you guys, so much for being here.
Thanks for the invite has beensuper, super great.

We got to have you guys now over to our space.
We could have the morning afterparentheses.
Vocational ministry show.

Heredes (01:02:03):
Let's go.
What time?
What time do you guys do thelives?

11 o'clock every Monday.
Monday's at 11.

Heredes (01:02:08):
That's as early as you can get a pastor up on a smud.

That's it.

So that way we can roll their day off.

They're still up by that time.

That way we can roll into the office at 10am.
We like hey office supportstuff.
We're here.
We're working today, wink andthen, do a show with them.
When we're done, it's time forlunch.
Hello, oh man, it's true.

Collin (01:02:28):
After 300 episodes, you got to figure it out.
We'll see you guys next time onthe nonprofit Renaissance.

Outro (01:02:35):
Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites aRenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email at
podcast at firstcreativecom.

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#13 - Pastoral Perspectives: Faith, Ministry, and Building Bridges with Nonprofits

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#13 - Pastoral Perspectives: Faith, Ministry, and Building Bridges with Nonprofits