When the sparks of innovation meet the steadfast spirit of community leadership, you get a character like Craig Altman. This episode takes you on a journey with a maverick who havs redefined the essence of service and faith in their own unique way. Craig's leap of faith from a secular background to spearheading Grace Family Church and Dream Center Tampa is nothing short of a narrative masterpiece.
Strap in for a profound exploration of how faith, obedience, and wise financial stewardship intertwine to shape the growth of both nonprofit organizations and spiritual communities. Pastor Craig shares the profound belief that when divine vision is bestowed upon us, the means to fulfill it will follow. This episode is peppered with captivating anecdotes that demonstrate the impact of strategic decision-making and the power of community outreach, epitomized by initiatives like Dream Center of Tampa.
Finally, we wade into the waters of church leadership evolution and the rippling effects of shared leadership models. Our conversation sheds light on the importance of empowering others to succeed in their own rights and the necessity for leaders to embrace a non-egoistic approach to their work. This is a treasure trove of insights for anyone involved in leading, fundraising, or managing a team in any capacity. So tune in, as we unpack the stories, strategies, and lessons learned from a trailblazer in community service and leadership.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heredes (00:09):
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, why?
Because we've got two foundersWow, two founders today on the
Renaissance podcast.
Hey, listen, and we're pumped.
We want to welcome ourlisteners to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Thanks for listening, thanksfor subscribing, thanks for your
comments, for your reviews.
It's been incredible.
My name's H, we've got Colin.
Say what's up, colin, that's me, I'm Colin, and we've got
(00:30):
Founding Fathers in the housetoday.
Founding Fathers, it's aspecial episode.
Collin (00:33):
They're new for a trade.
Sounds old.
Both founders, both founders.
We'll let you guys ageyourselves, but we've got.
Heredes (00:39):
you've heard them on the episode before, but the
principal and founder of VerseCreative, which powers the
nonprofit Renaissance, justinPrice, is in the house as a
special Justin.
Justin (00:47):
what's going on, man?
What's up guys?
It's good to be back.
Good to be back, thanks forhaving me back in the hot seat.
Heredes (00:54):
By popular demand, I think.
Right, I was getting someemails.
Yes, I was going to knock on mydoor the other day.
Collin (01:00):
My mom is definitely aggressive about getting right
back.
It was Bonnie.
Heredes (01:04):
But also our special guest today, excited for you to
hear from him.
Founder and leader.
And just Tampa OG, ladies andgentlemen, that's basically the
title, but started Grace FamilyChurch about 30 years ago.
And the founder of Dream CenterTampa, ladies and gentlemen,
the one and only.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:21):
Craig Altman.
All right, good to be here, wow.
That's a heavy introductionVery drawn out.
Heredes (01:28):
I wasn't saying mayor of Tampa, but can we legally say
that?
I don't think so have you everthought of running for mayor?
No, come on.
Collin (01:34):
We're not worried about legality on this podcast.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:36):
I'm so politically incorrect, it
wouldn't work very well.
Justin (01:39):
I'm just thinking about all the excerpts from the last
four sermons that he's alreadydisqualified.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:44):
I just DQ'd .
I love it but hey, patrickCraig, jesus would have been
DQ'd, I think too.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, Ithink he was.
I think he was Kind of on thecross.
Justin (01:57):
One of my favorite is when he says any sermon, where
you go?
I'm just being honest, I'm justbeing real here.
This is Grace.
This is Grace Family Church.
That's what I know.
What's going to follow that?
Is so good, I seriously likesmile from ear to ear.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:11):
Yeah, I had a foo paul.
Yeah, not a bad one.
But I was talking about Abrahamand Sarah and I said you know
99,.
She's good as dead, he's goodas dead.
I said you know, god promise.
But it probably got hard tokind of go and do it and I had
no Viagra back then and peoplewent, I had my phone blow up.
Heredes (02:33):
I said that's the one we're keeping.
I want that at every location.
Justin (02:35):
It was, it was so.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:37):
I was dying my wife talked to me later I
was dying.
Justin (02:40):
Please don't listen to any of those naysayers, because
you're keeping your audienceengaged, there we go.
Yeah, for sure.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:46):
For sure, great way to open.
Heredes (02:48):
No, this is it.
Let's cut to our sponsors today.
Viagra brought to you byAbraham Brought to you by
Abraham.
But, Pastor Craig, you've beena legend here in Tampa.
It's been amazing getting toserve with you here from you, be
pastor, led by you, Alsostarted the dream center in
Tampa which you want to talkabout.
(03:08):
But give give our listeners alittle insight on where you come
from, what you're up to in 30years and 30 seconds.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:17):
Born and raised in Tampa and did not come
from any Christian environment.
Man my dad was married fourtimes never knew God, church,
religion, Bible, nothing, Ofcourse you guys know.
19 years old, this pretty girlstarted telling me about Jesus
and I pretended like I waslistening.
But God had better plans, so Igot saved in a pub drinking beer
there you go yeah, what'shappened.
Heredes (03:38):
What kind of beer.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:39):
Well, I don't know, it was nine of them.
I can tell you that.
And then I heard a voice and Isaid you like hear a lot of
voices after nine beers Anyway.
Yeah, so you never thought I'dbe even a Christian, much less a
pastor.
Heredes (03:52):
So yeah.
And then 30 years ago, grayFamily Church.
Yeah, tell us about that.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:59):
Well, at the time I was a youth pastor
for 12 years and just felt thatyou know what we need to go do
this for adults, and I had noidea where it'd be today.
But we started a little stripcenter they were doing Jesus
jazzer size and we had 80 peoplein our first service and we
just said, if we could ever getup to 300 people, man, we would
be.
Heredes (04:19):
Make it, Make it big time.
So, and fast forward 30 yearsand I think you know we've
experienced.
Collin (04:26):
Finally made the 30, the 300.
Finally crossed 300.
Yes, we finally did that onstaff, on staff Cause.
Heredes (04:34):
Obviously God's blessed and you've led strong for for
multiple years.
Thousands of people, you knowseveral locations spread out
throughout Tampa and the impactand the life change that's
happened is incredible and wecelebrate.
We applaud you for yourfaithfulness in that, and what
we wanted to also touch on todayis dream center.
How did that come about in thein the journey?
Pastor Craig Altman (04:52):
Wow, I'm trying to think timeline.
I think it's probably 11 or 12years ago.
We were doing good, but I justit was an unsettling in my heart
and one day I was reading thestory of the Good Samaritan.
You know, he walks down theroad and he sees a guy in the
ditch and it says the priestwalked by and didn't do anything
.
Another guy walked by anddidn't do anything and the Good
Samaritan, of course, stoppedand helped.
And as I read the story, Godsaid you're, you're the one that
(05:15):
keeps walking by.
What are you talking about?
You guys, there's areas of thistown that are very under
resourced and kind of we used toold term inner city.
And so I started driving aroundand saw this dilapidated old
boys and girls club in Ebor in avery, in a very, in a very old
town, pretty tough area of town,and you know, it was just like
voice, this is the place.
And so we kind of, you know,started there.
(05:38):
We pretty much had beenabandoned.
It wasn't even livable oroccupied and we worked with a
Boys and Girls Club and theyweren't using it.
So you can use it for free ifyou want to redo it.
Well, it was $2 million later.
But our congregation, yeah, andwe just started really a program
for kids, you know, andmentoring after school program
(06:01):
for kids and, you know, helpthem to get their education, Of
course, Christ centered.
You know they need a careerpath.
You gotta get educated first,right, you gotta graduate.
That was about 11 years ago andit's still going strong today
and just seen some of the goodgenerational things.
Some of those kids we'veactually seen go to college.
That's scholarships from thedream center to go to college.
(06:22):
So it's been a good story.
But I think in those areasthere's a mentality, you know,
to have a handout and we justreally want to give a hand up,
not out, you know, and plusthey're testing you, how long
are you gonna be here?
And so we've been there, stillthere, and we'll be there till
Jesus comes back.
Heredes (06:41):
I love that.
Yeah, you know, obviouslyyou've led as a staple in the
community and being involved inthe community.
I think you obviously, beingfrom here you went to school
here you know you've known ofall the bars here from your past
.
So there's, you can't avoidthat, but you've continued that
over the years, which has reallybeen a key to your successful
(07:03):
leadership and influence.
Talk to our leaders about thatthe importance of not just come
see us, come to me, come here,but also being out there, being
connected community, whetherit's some of it politics,
whether it's just outreach orsocial services, whether it's
sporting events or relational.
What have you done?
What are some tips on that end?
Pastor Craig Altman (07:24):
I mean, just I look at the New Testament
church.
It wasn't just inside the walls, you have to be outside.
You got to be serving yourcommunity.
Jesus said I didn't come to beserved but to serve.
And church has turned inward sofast.
And that's the challenge in anychurch how do we start?
Stay focused on the community?
And the dream center reallyhelped us to kind of refocus on
hey, there's a place that we'regonna invest into that will
(07:47):
never be reciprocated.
It's not about hey, we're gonnado this and it's just a mission
.
And every church has to bemissional outside the walls or
it gets really stale.
And when you do that, it'samazing.
When we started the dreamcenter, like, how are we gonna
fund it?
How are we gonna do it?
God always provides when youare willing to reach out into
your community and at everylevel.
(08:09):
We're in many schools around.
We've adopted certain publicschools doing just gifts.
We just serve them.
They need a new teacher'slounge.
People go in and help, do thatjust to build a relationship
with the community.
They don't wanna hear aboutJesus, they wanna what are you
gonna do for us?
And as we've done that, we'vebeen able to gain influence in
(08:30):
many of these schools.
So it's been cool to outreachas we've done.
We had something called ServeSaturday where once a month we
have opportunities to serve inconnection with other ministries
.
We don't have to reinvent thewheel, they're already out.
There some great outreachministries In Tampa area.
You have some children's homes,you got metropolitan ministries
(08:50):
, you have home for unwedmothers, you have the prison
ministries, and so we just tryto partner with them and send
our people out.
And a new one that's actuallyevolved New Life Warehouse,
where they provide bedding andfurniture for people.
They don't get it, they taketheir kids away from them.
So there's a lot of cool thingsthat we can partner with and
(09:10):
our people wanna get out there.
I think people want knowthey're called to do something
Love it, Justin.
Heredes (09:15):
You sit on some boards and advise some nonprofits Like
the Dream Center and others.
Tell us about kind of whatyou've seen, some of the best
practices in being present,being out there and not just
come and see, but maybe kind ofgo.
Justin (09:31):
I think that there's a lot of nonprofits that are.
They see themselves already outthere, and so I think there's a
lot of even churches who thinkwhat we're doing in this
location is enough.
This is it, this is good, and Ithink there's a really cool
(09:52):
inspiration we should grab fromchurches and from other
nonprofits that are reaching outand extending beyond what is
their sweet spot, what they'realready doing and collaborating,
and so I think there's adisconnect for so many weeks
because they feel under resource.
But I think what you said aboutthe money God's got the
(10:16):
resources and it's aboutstepping up and actually doing
the reach.
He'll provide what you need Ifhe's put the vision on your
heart.
You need to be obedient is whatI'm hearing you say more than
anything, and I think a lot ofnonprofits need to hear that.
They're like why are we stuck?
Why we're doing the same thingwith the same budgets, and I
(10:36):
find myself on boards,oftentimes being the one trying
to push and trying to say wecan't be 10 years behind where
our audience is.
We've got to make some massivechanges and there's fear with
that.
So let's keep our money in thebank, let's not stretch
ourselves too thin, let's playit safe Because what we're doing
(10:57):
is already dangerous.
Right Like as a nonprofit,we're already trying to do
things that are uncomfortableand stretch us, and so when it
comes to finances and it comesto reaching out beyond our walls
and what is in our sweet spot,we oftentimes just leave it to
somebody else.
I think you guys have said theexample.
I mean, the fruit of that hasbeen that in a city that is
(11:18):
growing and is very difficult tograb new people right In a
culture where there is athousand things to do, it's so
hard to find the thing to do inTampa because there are so much
happening here that somehow youguys are grabbing all of these
transient people you areconnecting because of the work
(11:38):
you're doing outside of thechurch.
I believe, and God's blessing,that and the return is that the
ministry of the church isactually growing and even being,
you know, fastest growingchurch in America, third fastest
growing church in America lastyear.
Pastor Craig Altman (11:52):
I mean, that's what I heard.
Someone had to call me to tellme about it.
Collin (11:55):
Seriously Too busy growing the church.
Pastor Craig Altman (11:57):
Yeah, I said really.
I mean, I knew about thismagazine, did it, but keeping up
.
But you know, back to yourpoint, I think when you stretch,
what we've seen happen is iswhen you start directing back to
the community, all of a sudden,people within your congregation
get a vision for what they'recalled to do in the community
and, if it lines up with ourmission, we've empowered them to
go and do it.
There's some amazing people inour church that lead different
(12:20):
community outreaches and it'spretty cool.
I mean, they're part of anonprofit and now we have people
that go volunteer and help them, even when you the dream center
that was gonna be a bigfinancial thing.
When we've mentioned it, I'mlike God, how are we gonna do
this?
Cause we're getting ready to gomulti-site and God just had
people just start writing checksto something to like that.
(12:42):
And so it's God always meets theneed he really does.
It is scary, though in themoment, there's no doubt.
Justin (12:49):
There's also something that I think is super important
to say, and you might not behappy that I'm gonna say this.
We could just call this wholepodcast lessons I've learned
from Pastor Craig.
But there you go.
That's a title.
There's something to be saidfor the fact that I watched you
pass a lot of opportunities toadd more campuses, to grow
(13:12):
faster, to be more aggressiveand we have a lot of other
churches in America that arethey will.
They'll pop up a locationwithout the right infrastructure
.
They'll pop up without theright support.
They'll just and it's not thathealthy.
And I've seen you pass up supergood opportunities.
I've seen you, at the edge of acontract, pull the plug on
(13:34):
properties.
I've seen you, meanwhile,you're spending tons of money
and resources on outreach.
So I think, even in ourpersonalize, as leaders, as
Christians, as men, we're oftentempted to pull back our
outreach, to expand ourfortresses, and instead I've
watched you, over and over again, wait on God on expansion,
(13:58):
while being faithful to thecalling of the outreach.
Pastor Craig Altman (14:00):
There's tension for both of those.
There really is.
But you know, our goal hasalways been out of our budget,
10% goes into mission.
So, whether it's local orinternational missions or
benevolence, we've been able tofocus at least 10% of our
funding that goes towardsmissions, and above sometimes,
depending on the season thatwe're in.
(14:20):
So, and God just seems toalways be faithful, because God
does want us.
When you mentioned, I mean, it'sso easy, again 30 years, for
churches to turn inward and wehave our issues.
It's fighting that inward pull,but to keep thinking outside
what's good, because what'soutside is there's a lot of
hurting things going on in thereand they may never step foot in
(14:40):
the church.
But if we can start by servingthem, at least you're giving
them up a little bit of arepresentation what's Jesus say?
They will see your good worksand glorify my Father in heaven,
and that's what we should do.
All the glory goes to God too.
We don't look what we're doing.
It's like no.
When they see us doing thesegood works, hopefully that gives
them a reflection that Godcares for them.
Heredes (15:03):
You know I've also seen again another lesson we've
learned from Pastor Craig hereYou've allowed members,
congregation leaders, if theyhad a vision or an idea, to run
with it, empowering them, gowhen.
A lot of times I've seen that Ilike either stop it or like no,
bring it in.
If our church logo and name'snot slapped on it, it's no good.
(15:25):
And it was refreshing to seesecurity in your leadership to
like no, go in power.
Tell us about that tension,because it's a risk.
It's a risk, right, becauseyou're sending human resources,
actual resources.
What's your mentality?
What goes to your head?
Justin (15:37):
People who don't have a bunch of success-leading
nonprofits?
Yeah, exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (15:42):
I mean, it's just, you don't want to be
the lid right.
The church can create the redtape.
You want to maximize ministryand sometimes things got to get
going and then when they kind ofget a little bit messy they'll
come to us and we can maybe helpthem tweak their nonprofit,
their outreach ministry.
But for instance, I'm notpromoting them, but New Life
Warehouse started by a member.
(16:02):
Our name's not on it, it's notanything no one would know.
New Life we're involved withthem but you know they share a
warehouse space with us.
We have like 70% of theirvolunteers come from Grace
Family Church but we don't callit Grace Family Church New Life
Because it's their vision andministry.
But they're part of Grace andwe just love to see people God's
birth of vision in them.
(16:22):
That's an extension of thechurch.
You know, I mean that'sexciting.
I believe the church is thehope of the world.
But from the church should bethese extensions like spokes on
a wheel that go and touchdifferent types of people in our
Tampa Bay area.
Justin (16:39):
We talk a lot about what a healthy church looks like and
I think spawning communityoutreach and nonprofits from
your congregation is a great.
I'm not saying that it's theonly right, but I mean what a
great testament.
I mean there's probably dozensI can think of right now that
are in the Tampa Bay area thathave come from people who've
(17:01):
been pastored and ministered inone way or another at Grace and
are now leading and runningthese organizations, whether
it's full-time and they're bigor small part-time organizations
, but they're making ourcommunity better.
I think it's such a cool way tokind of measure.
If you are doing nonprofit workand you don't see fruit like
(17:22):
that coming from yourorganization, it's a good.
It's definitely good gut check.
Pastor Craig Altman (17:27):
And I think , though, to be fair I mean
we're 30 years old I think thefirst five to five or 10 years,
we were more focused on, youknow, getting our own things
started, which you know that'skind of self-centered, you know.
But as you go on you realize,man, these people need to get
out and do something.
I remember a weekend where wesaid you know, we're going to do
that random acts of kindnessbook that came out.
(17:49):
Well, one weekend we told herone you're going to show up at
church and we're going to dosomething we've never done
before.
And we did this thing where wehad a five-minute service and
said, all right, go, go andserve the world.
And we had a little sheet ofpaper of 10 things they could do
, and so literally, we had likea five-minute service People
went no, no, I want to sing andyou give me the word.
(18:09):
No, no, we're going to go out.
So we've probably got somepeople mad, but that's how you
know.
We wanted to.
We wanted to change things upyou know, because again we all
become inward.
No, I love that.
Heredes (18:20):
And I said OG earlier only because original gangster
of Tampa here.
He's been doing some innovativeradical things in Tampa from
Youth Pastor Days to we may havean extra like director's cut
podcast on just all thecraziness and lots of trouble
the kids you've lost and tripsand all the stories.
Tell me about.
I was going to ask you aboutjust the multiplication piece of
(18:41):
this.
For the leader listening, youknow they're thinking they're in
the four walls and they'refiguring this out.
Grace has expanded right, it's14,000 plus people, butts and
seats, not mentioning the onlineinfluence because that would
double.
Pastor Craig Altman (18:53):
Does that count.
I'm kidding you.
I'm kidding you.
Heredes (18:57):
We've always had that conversation.
Yes, online people are.
If you're listening to this,you're real you're very real.
Pastor Craig went?
I think so, but we love you.
Collin (19:05):
As an online show, you're very real to us.
Heredes (19:07):
Yes, you're very real to us, eight locations, and that
expansion occurred.
When you started back in 30years ago, did you foresee that,
that expansion, thatmultiplication?
Pastor Craig Altman (19:17):
I mean, I really didn't.
I knew that, you know, after awhile God was doing more than
what we realized, and so I hadto step up my leadership game
and I think it starts with andI'll just say this when I do go
sometimes to a pastor'sconference and I speak at some
of these workshops it startswith you.
If you're an insecure leader,you're never going to allow
other people to take the visionbecause you want to be all about
(19:39):
you.
You got to control it.
Everything's got to comethrough me.
And I learned early on man, Idon't, I'm not enough.
I mean, I'm only one part of apuzzle.
You know we need to build dreamteams.
You know we can't have thatwhat I call King Saul mentality.
You know he had David coming upthrough the ranks, this great
warrior, and instead ofencouraging him, he was jealous
(20:01):
of him and became insecure.
And you know there's so manypastors that lose their David's
because they don't allow them toflex their muscles within the,
within the church.
And so that's one thing earlyon.
When you're talking aboutexpansion, your own leadership
capacity these expand.
First, you got to be okay withwho you are and get smarter
people around you.
(20:22):
Listen, I'm telling you, I gota lot smarter people around me
that are, that are stronger thanme.
They in certain lanes that I'mweak in, that's where they're
strong, and and and let them beempowered and let them get the
credit.
You know I say this there's alot of pastors, a lot of big
egos and and it's hard to growministry like that to me, a
healthy one.
So so it starts there.
(20:43):
If you want to expand, you getto expand your own leadership
capacity.
Heredes (20:45):
And we know that you know verse, verse gets to serve
and honor to serve grace.
And we tried slapping Craig'sphoto and everything and he just
keeps coming back sayingPhotoshop it more, please
Photoshop.
Pastor Craig Altman (20:55):
Exactly, you've seen this face, you got
to work on it.
Collin (20:58):
We're talking about finding finding good leaders,
you know, and starting theseinitiatives.
What are you looking for forpeople?
What are maybe some of thecounterintuitive things that
people think someone wants in aleader that you're like no,
maybe leave that behind and whatare the things that you're like
?
This is really.
I know I've found a qualityleader to put in.
Pastor Craig Altman (21:17):
I don't know.
I'd say once right, are theyteachable?
You know I'd start there.
Are they humble?
Are they teachable?
But is there a little riskfactor in them that they like to
kind of, you know, get outthere a little bit?
Are they solution oriented?
Do they see the solution or dothey?
Oh, anybody can tell you theproblem?
We got too many peoplediagnosing things.
No, come to me with a solution.
(21:37):
So I look at, I look at those.
Really just starts with arethey teachable?
You know have been.
Have they been faithful in afew things, like First Timothy?
Give them a few things.
Are they faithful in a fewthings?
And maybe you can give themmore to do.
It's still a moving target.
Sometimes we haven't hit itright every time, but if they
see a secure leader, they wantto come alongside someone who is
(22:02):
secure, who's not threatened.
When, when, when they feel thatwhen, when a leader feels
threatened, he's never going togrow out.
Grow strong leaders, they'regoing to leave people like
serving insecure leaders.
So again, it starts with theleader, but then identifying new
leaders.
Those are some of the traits Ithink about.
Obviously, the traits thatattract us are like, you know,
(22:24):
man, they're charismatic andthey're attractional and that's
great, but if they don't havethese other foundational things,
those kind of people can yeah,I can not work good sometimes,
so you just kind of look for thelook for someone who's
teachable, who asks goodquestions, who will follow
through of assignments.
You know they always say realestate's location, location,
(22:46):
location.
To me, leadership is follow up,follow up, follow up.
Do they follow up and do thelittle things they're supposed
to do?
And that's how you, to me, grow.
You know some good leadership.
That's huge.
I mean you got to let themswing the bat too.
I mean that's the thing youhave to.
People are going to fail.
I mean talk about failures.
As a youth pastor, that was mytraining ground.
(23:06):
People got to be willing toswing the bat and when they miss
, if you're a good leader, youknow you, you go back and you,
you have conversations likeJesus did.
Okay, let's talk about whathappened here.
You know it's a process oflearning and growing as a leader
.
Heredes (23:21):
Pastor Craig, talk to us on the early years.
Like you said earlier,different focus, not
self-centered, but I think it'sa focused.
You have to grow this, you haveto figure out who we are, what
are we doing.
It's a startup mentality, right, as you've developed.
You've delegated, kind ofgalvanized, you've allowed
others to be the face, to be thename, to be the, the
(23:42):
spokesperson, and to a faultalmost that you walk around,
sometimes at locations andthousands of people that you
know, new folks eventually willknow that are you the founder or
are you that guy?
You're the, but they may noteven know.
Right, how was that transition?
Because that's not standardpractice, if you may.
Pastor Craig Altman (24:02):
Well, now everybody's in a different
season.
I think when you're firststarting something, it needs to
be your imprint, your DNA, yourinjecting your DNA into that
church early on.
But I wish one thing I wouldhave done earlier in my ministry
is have more of a shared model,even from the teaching.
I was doing most of theteaching the first 20 years, 45
(24:24):
weekends a year, and that was alittle bit of a grind and you
know.
But for me, the season I'm innow I love.
I must decrease, I must increase, I love the season to see other
people win and I think ourchurch is healthier than it's
ever been because of the more ofa shared leadership where it's
not built on a personality itreally isn't.
(24:47):
Now I have a team of two orthree of us that do the teaching
and it sets diversity.
In that it's been very healthyfor the church.
So for me, the season I'm in, Iwanna do that.
But I really think it's a modelother guys should look at.
Because if you're the only oneand you're hit by a truck
(25:08):
tomorrow, where's the ministry,Where's the church at?
I'll be honest, if I'm hit by atruck tomorrow, I think we're
gonna be okay.
Justin (25:15):
So I don't wanna get by a truck, but if I am, I'm such a
gold-davichand yeah well, wecould probably count a lot more
really large churches that havesuffered and struggled when that
single leader has gone down,Whether it's hit by a truck or a
moral failure or anything.
There's not that many that aredoing this model and I imagine
(25:41):
that it took a lot of risk foryou to embrace it and stick with
it, Because I know I'm not theonly one who has heard multiple
times where people say I loveyour preaching.
Can you just preach all thetime?
I would be, you know, and I'mjust not to say I love all the
people who are preaching rightnow but I but who's?
your favorite though.
Heredes (25:59):
I'm kidding.
Justin (25:59):
But you've had to deal with that.
You had to hear that, probablyweek after week for a long time,
and stick with that conviction.
Pastor Craig Altman (26:05):
Yeah, and it's still a little muddy.
I mean, a shared model is stillpretty challenging and for us
we're working through some ofthe finer details of that, but I
really believe that it's a goodprotection for the long-term
success of the church if it'snot dependent on one person, but
when you have three or four orfive people in a high-level role
(26:27):
and they're leading together,obviously you need to have a
tiebreaker, but it's not easy,but for me it's a better way for
us to do it.
Justin (26:37):
You're saying it's worth it.
Pastor Craig Altman (26:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely yeah yeah.
Collin (26:41):
So for those churches or nonprofit organizations who
might be kind of in that middlespace there, maybe they were
relying heavily on thatleadership personality.
But they're realizing, hey, howdo they do that?
How do they manage that?
What are they?
Is that something that you'resaying Like try to get out of
that to the multiplicity earlyon?
Like how do they manage that?
Pastor Craig Altman (27:00):
I mean number one.
You gotta know that God'scalling you to do it.
I'm not saying this foreverybody.
And then you gotta be veryintentional about it.
I mean very intentional,Obviously I'm 65.
So this next level ofleadership I'm looking at had to
be people younger, right,You're looking for that, some of
them, not all, but a youngergroup that has proven themselves
(27:22):
at some level to say, okay,let's see if this can be the
group.
And that's really where a lotof my time in investment is,
that right now, just helpingthem understand how I think and
talking about it and lettingthem lead.
I mean, really 85% of our churchright now is not led by me.
I mean there are decisions madeand it's hard because I have
preferences and I've realized mypreferences don't matter Now.
(27:45):
Core values are different.
So I'm learning there's betweena preference and a core value.
I mean most leaders are verymuch high D, control people and
there's a lot you have tosurrender.
I can tell you I'm still goingthrough it, but I feel like I'm
in our church in a much betterplace now.
I don't feel as much stress.
I think that until you allowpeople to make decisions, you
(28:09):
don't know if they have what ittakes, and so it's challenging,
but it's very rewarding for me.
Collin (28:19):
Yeah, I imagine one of the probably most difficult
parts of that is just time, isbeing willing and being able to
make the time to spend withthose people, cause you can send
them video courses but likethere's nothing to replace
actual time with them to developthem.
Pastor Craig Altman (28:33):
Yeah, I think the Crockpot idea is the
best, because I think when thereare transitions of large
churches it's almost so quick ofa handoff because they really
weren't thinking about it, sothen they just think they can do
it in 12 months.
I'm here now, I'm not here, andthis guy is like man.
That can be very difficult.
So ours has been a pretty mucha six, seven year process and
(28:54):
just slowly shaping and againthere's a lot of rumors that
come out Craig's leaving.
When I start allowing otherpeople to speak and I'm never
gonna leave my role might beredefined, but I don't plan on
leaving.
Heredes (29:08):
The rumor I heard is that you're gonna go play for
the Bucks or something.
Is that right?
Pastor Craig Altman (29:10):
Yeah, that was years ago.
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
Heredes (29:13):
I was telling Colin that earlier.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about your book, your
big fan, of course.
Tell us a little bit about yourbook.
Pastor Craig Altman (29:19):
You're taking a right turn here, see.
See, that was years ago.
I mean, I always loved footballand dreamed of playing for the
Buccaneers.
I'd gotten saved and I'd go.
This is what God's gonna do.
He's gonna use this platform toplay for the Bucks, and they
had a terrible field goal kickerat the time.
So I had been training as afield goal kicker and I
eventually got a tryout.
(29:40):
But when I got into the roomactually for the application it
was pretty funny was John McKaywas in there just back in 1978,
something like that.
Heredes (29:48):
It's a bright orange jersey.
He's back there Orange jerseythat's right.
Pastor Craig Altman (29:51):
And they said hey, you're not even old
enough to play in the NFL, Allthat and so I didn't even get to
go on a field.
But officially I had beeninvited for a tryout and they
wanted me to go play semi-profootball, which wasn't gonna
work, because you don't justfield goal kick, you gotta play
another position, and these guysare way too big.
And so that was the end of myfootball career, but that was
the beginning of God reallyshowing me what he wanted me to
(30:12):
do.
That's why I tell people you'redreaming, I'll be God's dream,
but you're dead end.
It's not a dead end for God.
Collin (30:18):
Well, how often do you think people do that?
Well, they've got thisdirection and they follow that
and all of a sudden, god takesthat.
It's just good at that, buttakes that right turn.
Yeah, how does that?
I feel like that probablyhappens a lot.
Pastor Craig Altman (30:30):
I think it does happen a lot.
I mean, as long as we're moving, god can direct us.
But when you're standing stillnot taking chances and not
taking risks, what can God do?
And you're sitting therewaiting.
I mean, I think we take stepsand then God can direct us.
It's great.
Heredes (30:44):
I love what you said earlier.
I wanna go back to thepreferences over values and the
discernment of that, because Ithink many times we'll make a
big deal out of a preference,something actually that it's not
a core value.
And how do you hear from Godthe sermon?
How do you process?
Who do you listen to?
Pastor Craig Altman (31:01):
I can tell you the last seven years been
great, but it's been frustratingfor me.
Preferences I gotta let go ofmy preferences.
Why are they doing it that way?
Well, as long as we have thesame outcome, what do I care?
And that's still a struggle tothis day.
So I don't think that ever getseasy for any type D leader.
But man, I'd rather see.
(31:22):
I'd rather empower 10 people todo something that's gonna
multiply itself, and maybethey're doing it 85%, the way I
think it should be done.
But then, instead of me, oneperson.
It just makes sense, right?
There's a multiplication factorwhen you empower others to
begin leading and they're gonnado things differently.
Justin (31:41):
You have an example of one that's been hard for you.
I might encourage somebody elsewho's maybe in that same seat
Wow.
Pastor Craig Altman (31:49):
I mean I can take a lot of examples.
Justin (31:52):
Which one can you say?
Pastor Craig Altman (31:55):
I mean, I was a youth pastor for years.
I've had to let go of youthministry and even how we do
summer camps, though I can tellyou five things I would do
differently, and I've just hadto pull out on Goldcombe just
gonna keep my mouth shut andthey're mostly preferences.
I would have done it this way,I'd done it that way.
Now I will still get in theweeds sometimes.
That would be one area that Iwould say you know, there's some
(32:20):
multiple things that I could gointo, but you just gotta grow
up.
You know you do, man, I realize.
Listen.
You find out how much ego youhave in pride when you finally
start surrendering.
Heredes (32:33):
And it's difficult because you were successful at
it.
So therefore, the trackrecord's there.
Why wouldn't we do it?
How much of it is it likeparenting, right, you have to
let.
Sometimes you can teach yourkids, but you gotta let your
kids do it.
Pastor Craig Altman (32:46):
Very good, that's a great analogy.
Their own way.
Heredes (32:49):
And they'll come back.
I'm like thanks, dad, or likeyou're right that, or see that
it worked the same way, right,yeah, yeah.
Yeah you're a grandfather now,so you know, yeah, exactly,
thank you, you've gone throughit.
Well, grandparents don't get todo that, they just get to like
who cares.
Collin (33:02):
You just kind of like you know, you're just a fun one
now I think every leader, I mean.
Pastor Craig Altman (33:06):
Another thing I'll say about leadership
in general.
I mean, do you really havepeople that have permission to
speak to you about your blindspots?
I mean they say, oh yeah, Ihave people.
No, the feedback they give youis what you wanna hear, because
they're afraid they're gonna getfired, you know.
And so that feedback culture ishard to develop in any
nonprofit organization.
(33:26):
But I promise you we have blindspots.
I have blind spots.
My wife's really good attelling me those, which you know
is hard sometimes coming fromyour spouse.
But I would say leadership, yougotta make sure you have people
that can come to you, that youknow are in your corner, that
will tell you the truth.
Yeah, you know, whether theysay faithful or the wounds of a
(33:49):
friend, but the faithful or thekisses of an enemy too many
strong, dominant CEOs andpastors of churches they have.
You know they're not as open asyou would think you know, to
feedback and we just gotta letgo of some of that.
Heredes (34:07):
Yeah, that's good, pastor Craig.
One of the questions that comesin all the time and it's
becoming a recurring themebecause it's been helpful to our
listeners it's on fundraisingright and, for nonprofits, the
idea of developing donors,activating them, engaging them,
building relationships.
30 years plus, including andplus if you add youth group
years and beyond.
(34:27):
Give us some insight.
How have you done it?
What's God done?
But through your leadership orthe team, et cetera?
It's funny.
I've never been to.
Pastor Craig Altman (34:34):
Bible school.
But I heard that's one thingall these guys wish Bible school
at a time.
These Bible school would havetaught them about fundraising,
because really, what stopsvision is lack of leadership and
lack of funding.
Right, and it was the hardestthing to do.
I mean, money is such asensitive subject.
We all know it is.
You know, talk about my mother,but don't talk about money.
And early on it was hard.
I mean, I remember doing myfirst tithing message and
(34:56):
apologizing the whole timethrough it and one of my biggest
donors came to me and said doyou believe in what you're
preaching?
I said, yeah, he goes.
You better act like or I'm gonnastop giving because, you're
passionate about everything elsebut you're apologizing about I
went.
Oh, okay.
So you know.
And fundraising, you know,first of all, you have to really
(35:17):
believe in what you're doingand then you're giving people
the why right.
People give the vision right.
They give to a vision, and soyou gotta make the vision
compelling.
And you have to be unapologetic, not brash, but unapologetic
about this is I'm excited andyou need to see this is so
important for us to do as achurch or whatever your
organization is.
And I tell you what, whenyou're dealing with large donors
(35:41):
, you better have your facts,you better have your due
diligence done.
What the cost are, or whatwe're gonna do if it's a
building, here's what it's gonnacost, here's the size, here's
where we're at right now.
They wanna know the facts, youknow.
So there's some things I'velearned over the years.
Collin (35:59):
And what if you don't have that?
What if you have the vision andyou believe in the vision and
it's something that's deep inyour heart but you don't
necessarily have all?
Is that like a no-go or is thatlike how they measure that?
Pastor Craig Altman (36:09):
I tell you, for the business type people,
they wanna see something onpaper.
You gotta get someone to helpyou articulate what's in your
head on paper, right?
I mean you have to.
They wanna see that you'vetaken time to write it down.
That's what I've learned overthe years and again.
Here's what I do know too andit's different from a church,
(36:32):
from certain non-profits, insome ways, because in people in
church there's a lot of peoplethat have a lot of money that if
you don't know how to make theask, they're gonna give it
somewhere.
You know, and I know that forus we're gonna make sure the
vision is compelling and yourbuilding relationship.
(36:55):
For me, part of my job isbuilding relationship with
donors.
They wanna know you, they wannaand that helps as you're
building those bridges to them.
So then when you have a need,you're not starting this brand
new.
Hey, I don't know you, butwould you like to?
They get to know you, they getto know the vision.
That makes it easier.
Collin (37:17):
Well, I imagine that makes up for a lot too.
If you have that genuinerelationship, I think people
might be willing to overlooksome things because they've
already built that trust withyou, so maybe they're not
needing all of that because theyknow who you are Exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (37:31):
Advantage for me 30 years.
We have a little bit of a trackrecord.
But raising funds makes mostpastors very nervous and
uncomfortable.
It's an uncomfortable place tobe.
It seems self-serving.
Even when I get up and do aseries every year on finances
and it seems like it'sself-serving.
But we know when they investand give it's not just helping
(37:54):
us, it's helping otherministries that we support.
No one sees the inside ofwhat's really going on in your
organization.
That's why you got to give themthe inside behind the scenes.
You got to give them thestories, the testimonies of
what's going on.
Justin (38:07):
You do a great job, even when you talk about money,
about breaking down finances forthe organization right, so you
oftentimes like a very accuratereport of where all the money is
going when you're talking aboutyeah we give them like a pie
shape.
Pastor Craig Altman (38:21):
You know, they don't realize.
You know really your utilitybills a hundred thirty thousand
dollars a year, or you know, oryou know, or whatever it is.
They have no idea.
When you got seven or eightcampuses, it's like can you
imagine having seven houses andmaintaining all those houses and
some of those?
So it helps them to see that alot of people like to hear that
other people or anti-big church.
I'll see that you've got toomany months, too much money in
(38:43):
the building, so you, it's soyeah, those people are not able
to do a cost per person analysis, then yeah.
How about running?
Justin (38:54):
three million dollar budget for 300 people.
Pastor Craig Altman (38:57):
Yeah, but yeah, it's funny, but you know
it's something that the Bible'strue.
I think when people understandthe principles of giving, it
helps them, because I believeGod blesses you when you become
generous In your giving and inyour life.
In fact, the funny thing is forme, the last two or three times
I've gone to speak and I don'tgo do a lot of outside speaking
(39:19):
but the last two or three guysthey what do you want me to
speak on?
All three of them said I wantyou to speak on giving.
They've gone back to some ofthe.
It's hard for, but I can saythings they can't say yeah at
their church.
Yeah, and I've had phenomenalresults do.
It's funny some of the phonecalls I get.
Heredes (39:32):
So it's pretty funny if you want to book Pastor Craig,
we're gonna put.
Collin (39:37):
Things there that you can't say your church yeah don't
want Viagra mentioned though.
Heredes (39:43):
Wow, yeah, there's an additional.
Yeah, put that in the country,but you know what?
Pastor Craig Altman (39:47):
I think I'm finding move, though, but I
think but I think giving yougotta be straightforward people
Compassionate, but here's thedeal.
Here's what the Bible says andthe word is weighty enough on it
.
We don't need to beat people upon it, but the words, word says
enough.
Heredes (40:02):
Yeah, so no, that, not apologizing, just starting with
it, not apologizing for it, yeah, don't fear.
Pastor Craig Altman (40:06):
That's the hardest part of leadership,
though, like you said aboutfundraising, it is.
It is hard.
Collin (40:10):
Yeah, well, it's interesting that story you
shared because you probably inthat moment, by apologizing, you
thought you were opening thedoor wider, you know, but you
were closing it.
Yeah, you were closing the doorand there were people that were
saying I'm not, yeah.
That's communicating.
This person does not believe inwhat they're doing exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (40:26):
That's a lot of big lesson I learned
early on.
Yeah, absolutely.
Heredes (40:29):
It's huge talk to the leader looking to start a church
, start an unprofit.
What are some questions you'reasking?
You're encouraging them,discouraging them, or that of
the mind, or they what?
What would you tell them?
Pastor Craig Altman (40:41):
number one.
No, God's called you to do itbecause you're gonna go through
some Challenging times early on.
If you know God's told you to doit, that's a stake in the
ground.
Have some good advisors aroundyou, I mean early on, have
people around you At every levelhelping you.
I mean, write the vision down.
You know what are the two orthree things that you would say,
(41:02):
the why is it why you do itright?
Here's why we're doing this andhere's what we think the
outcomes will be.
And keep it very simple, people, I think.
I just think that, whether it'sa church or a nonprofit, we can
get so scattered Laser.
Focus on what the main thing isand stay on the main thing.
Keep it the main thing.
(41:24):
As a church grew, as our churchgrew, everybody wants to get
involved.
Their projects we had to knowis that God wants to do that or,
and we just you got to stayfocused on the main thing.
Heredes (41:33):
Hmm, has gold right there.
That's gold.
I think I think that's a clip,I think that's a promo clip
right there.
What are the right way that inthe bag you're still?
Justin (41:41):
you're still doing that today, though.
You're still putting peoplearound, you're still questioning
.
Pastor Craig Altman (41:45):
You're still listening, yeah.
Yeah, I have some people on ourboard they're very smart that
have built businesses and infact one of our guys build a
business.
It was kind of like amulti-site he had.
He was in the food business buthe bought up and acquired like
18 others over the nation.
Then he sold the company.
But I said, hey, I'm startingthis multi-site, how do I?
(42:06):
And he really helped usunderstand how to build.
There's.
Certain principles aretransferable, right Totally.
You got to always be learning,man, I mean that's great.
Yeah, I could talk about fivethings never to do if you want
to.
Heredes (42:18):
We could do that one too.
Pastor Craig Altman (42:19):
I mean, I mean, you know we talk about.
There's so many ten things youknow.
I would always said if I wrotea book, it'd be ten things not
to do as a leader.
You know, and and yeah welisten.
Collin (42:30):
We can remove this if we need to.
I'm curious.
A lot of years of speaking,what's one of the most
regrettable or embarrassingthings you've ever said from a
stage?
Pastor Craig Altman (42:39):
Oh wow, other than Viagra, yeah, that
was that might not even be there, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know,
over the years, I'm trying tothink.
Collin (42:49):
I'm just too many to sift through?
Pastor Craig Altman (42:51):
Yeah, I have a lot of a lot of food paws
in there.
I'm just trying to think of.
Heredes (42:57):
We'll do a podcast with Debbie.
I'm sure she can share.
Pastor Craig Altman (43:01):
Yeah, one time I was talking about I
remember was talking about Jonahand the whole thing was about
Jonah I said no at a whole time.
I Kept knowing the way peoplewere waving at me trying and at
the end they go.
You started with the book ofJonah and you talked about no
other hole, used the name, noone said a Jonah, and I'm like
all that.
And then my son, who nevercommented on any of my messages,
(43:23):
he was like ten years old, saiddad, that was really funny.
What happened?
I said what?
Because I said it was a newyear and I say, hey, we all need
a fresh start.
Well, I said we all need afresh fart and that's what you
equally true.
That's the only thing.
Then I was doing a wedding.
(43:45):
One time I'm real sayingmarriage is not an option
instead of divorce is not, yeah.
And then the funeral my veryfirst funeral In some of you
might have very first funeralever did.
I was my new church, trying toimpress people.
I've wouldn't a youth pastoranymore, I'm a pastor and and
we're going from the, from thechurch, to the grave site and I
(44:07):
was in the car with a friend ofmine hey, you want to drive me
to the grave site?
As we started talking, I forgotwhere I was at and you know how
you get a long line of carswith the lights on.
I was in the back and I saidwhy are these people driving so
slow?
They're in the right lane so Izoom around them, I'm flooring
it, going past them in the leftlane and I pass everybody,
including the hearse, and thehearse guy looked at me like
what are you doing?
(44:27):
And then I ease back in.
The problem was having to getto the cemetery and all those
people knew that I would justdone that.
Like who is this idiot pastor?
Yeah, and I had to close out.
You know, dust to dust and Ithought I was dust to dust.
You know my last time as apastor.
He just climbed in the casket.
Oh yeah, I wanted to burymyself.
Collin (44:49):
Yeah, that's incredible.
Pastor Craig Altman (44:49):
Yeah, so, but yeah, I can't think of some
sermon ones, but they'redefinitely a few of them out
there.
Did you ever some of?
Justin (44:55):
your humility came honestly.
Heredes (45:03):
Did you ever lead worship.
Pastor Craig Altman (45:06):
You know that's not true, but they have
mic'd me before.
One time we had a Christmas.
We should do a Christmas thingwhere it just fun things.
We'd have fun, and this onewere a lot smaller, and one of
the things they decided to dowas they had me mic'd up when I
was singing from and they had itset up for the Christmas
banquet and they go.
Now we're gonna hear fromPastor Craig and his version of
(45:29):
whatever it was, and it was justme singing and you didn't know
that they were recording it.
And it was terrible.
I was the only time I said yougot to turn that off right now.
It maybe never want to singagain.
Heredes (45:41):
That's a preference pass yeah, yeah.
Before we wrap and if you haveany final thoughts again, thank
you for the time.
Give us a little insight.
Can you leak anything?
We're celebrating 30 years.
What's up, what's ahead, what'snext?
Pastor Craig Altman (45:54):
Oh boy.
Well, you know our 30 yearanniversary is coming up and we
thought we should do somethingbig.
And and then we shifted andsaid, no, we're gonna do, we're
gonna do a 30 year anniversary.
But it's not gonna be about us.
We're gonna really do it onEaster at at the stadium right,
raymond James Stadium, nicebecause we think we can reach
Thousands of people who wouldnot normally come to church on
(46:14):
Easter to a neutral site.
So we're kind of really firedup about that, getting ready to
the plan for that, and it'sgonna be an invitation For Tampa
Bay to come to Easter to hearabout the greatest comeback ever
.
Heredes (46:26):
Let's go, yeah so it should be good If you're
listening.
Pastor Craig Altman (46:30):
you're invited you missed it Easter
Sunday.
Watch it online.
Heredes (46:32):
It'll be Easter Sunday, yeah are you gonna finally get
your your kick?
Pastor Craig Altman (46:37):
Yeah, I might do it.
Yeah, one field goal?
Yeah, no, I'd pull a groin orsomething.
But I would say, if I would say, if I could summarize one thing
about leadership is I'm a veryserious leader, but don't take
yourself too seriously.
You know, I Some, we just can'tcome off unapproachable, overly
(46:57):
religious.
Keep it real.
Authenticity is so important.
Humility, admitting when you'rewrong, you know, hey, I screwed
up.
You gain more respect from yourleaders when you can admit
you've done something wrong.
That's probably the biggestcomplaint I hear is they never
admit that they're wrong.
And I think admitting you'rewrong is not a weakness, is
actually a strength, you know.
(47:18):
So don't take yourself tooseriously.
I like just having fun, it'sgood.
Heredes (47:22):
You've modeled that well.
That's your great.
Yeah, you have.
Thank you for the time, thankyou for the principles and be
sure to follow Patrick Craig,follow GFC Florida online and
all those links for you.
All that grace is doing, sotake us up, yeah.
Collin (47:35):
Hey guys, thank you so much for listening, like,
subscribe, share and we'll seeyou next time on the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Outro (47:43):
Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites aRenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email.
At podcast at first, creativecomm.
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, why?
Because we've got two foundersWow, two founders today on the
Renaissance podcast.
Hey, listen, and we're pumped.
We want to welcome ourlisteners to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Thanks for listening, thanksfor subscribing, thanks for your
comments, for your reviews.
It's been incredible.
My name's H, we've got Colin.
Say what's up, colin, that's me, I'm Colin, and we've got
(00:30):
Founding Fathers in the housetoday.
Founding Fathers, it's aspecial episode.
Collin (00:33):
They're new for a trade.
Sounds old.
Both founders, both founders.
We'll let you guys ageyourselves, but we've got.
Heredes (00:39):
you've heard them on the episode before, but the
principal and founder of VerseCreative, which powers the
nonprofit Renaissance, justinPrice, is in the house as a
special Justin.
Justin (00:47):
what's going on, man?
What's up guys?
It's good to be back.
Good to be back, thanks forhaving me back in the hot seat.
Heredes (00:54):
By popular demand, I think.
Right, I was getting someemails.
Yes, I was going to knock on mydoor the other day.
Collin (01:00):
My mom is definitely aggressive about getting right
back.
It was Bonnie.
Heredes (01:04):
But also our special guest today, excited for you to
hear from him.
Founder and leader.
And just Tampa OG, ladies andgentlemen, that's basically the
title, but started Grace FamilyChurch about 30 years ago.
And the founder of Dream CenterTampa, ladies and gentlemen,
the one and only.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:21):
Craig Altman.
All right, good to be here, wow.
That's a heavy introductionVery drawn out.
Heredes (01:28):
I wasn't saying mayor of Tampa, but can we legally say
that?
I don't think so have you everthought of running for mayor?
No, come on.
Collin (01:34):
We're not worried about legality on this podcast.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:36):
I'm so politically incorrect, it
wouldn't work very well.
Justin (01:39):
I'm just thinking about all the excerpts from the last
four sermons that he's alreadydisqualified.
Pastor Craig Altman (01:44):
I just DQ'd .
I love it but hey, patrickCraig, jesus would have been
DQ'd, I think too.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, Ithink he was.
I think he was Kind of on thecross.
Justin (01:57):
One of my favorite is when he says any sermon, where
you go?
I'm just being honest, I'm justbeing real here.
This is Grace.
This is Grace Family Church.
That's what I know.
What's going to follow that?
Is so good, I seriously likesmile from ear to ear.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:11):
Yeah, I had a foo paul.
Yeah, not a bad one.
But I was talking about Abrahamand Sarah and I said you know
99,.
She's good as dead, he's goodas dead.
I said you know, god promise.
But it probably got hard tokind of go and do it and I had
no Viagra back then and peoplewent, I had my phone blow up.
Heredes (02:33):
I said that's the one we're keeping.
I want that at every location.
Justin (02:35):
It was, it was so.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:37):
I was dying my wife talked to me later I
was dying.
Justin (02:40):
Please don't listen to any of those naysayers, because
you're keeping your audienceengaged, there we go.
Yeah, for sure.
Pastor Craig Altman (02:46):
For sure, great way to open.
Heredes (02:48):
No, this is it.
Let's cut to our sponsors today.
Viagra brought to you byAbraham Brought to you by
Abraham.
But, Pastor Craig, you've beena legend here in Tampa.
It's been amazing getting toserve with you here from you, be
pastor, led by you, Alsostarted the dream center in
Tampa which you want to talkabout.
(03:08):
But give give our listeners alittle insight on where you come
from, what you're up to in 30years and 30 seconds.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:17):
Born and raised in Tampa and did not come
from any Christian environment.
Man my dad was married fourtimes never knew God, church,
religion, Bible, nothing, Ofcourse you guys know.
19 years old, this pretty girlstarted telling me about Jesus
and I pretended like I waslistening.
But God had better plans, so Igot saved in a pub drinking beer
there you go yeah, what'shappened.
Heredes (03:38):
What kind of beer.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:39):
Well, I don't know, it was nine of them.
I can tell you that.
And then I heard a voice and Isaid you like hear a lot of
voices after nine beers Anyway.
Yeah, so you never thought I'dbe even a Christian, much less a
pastor.
Heredes (03:52):
So yeah.
And then 30 years ago, grayFamily Church.
Yeah, tell us about that.
Pastor Craig Altman (03:59):
Well, at the time I was a youth pastor
for 12 years and just felt thatyou know what we need to go do
this for adults, and I had noidea where it'd be today.
But we started a little stripcenter they were doing Jesus
jazzer size and we had 80 peoplein our first service and we
just said, if we could ever getup to 300 people, man, we would
be.
Heredes (04:19):
Make it, Make it big time.
So, and fast forward 30 yearsand I think you know we've
experienced.
Collin (04:26):
Finally made the 30, the 300.
Finally crossed 300.
Yes, we finally did that onstaff, on staff Cause.
Heredes (04:34):
Obviously God's blessed and you've led strong for for
multiple years.
Thousands of people, you knowseveral locations spread out
throughout Tampa and the impactand the life change that's
happened is incredible and wecelebrate.
We applaud you for yourfaithfulness in that, and what
we wanted to also touch on todayis dream center.
How did that come about in thein the journey?
Pastor Craig Altman (04:52):
Wow, I'm trying to think timeline.
I think it's probably 11 or 12years ago.
We were doing good, but I justit was an unsettling in my heart
and one day I was reading thestory of the Good Samaritan.
You know, he walks down theroad and he sees a guy in the
ditch and it says the priestwalked by and didn't do anything
.
Another guy walked by anddidn't do anything and the Good
Samaritan, of course, stoppedand helped.
And as I read the story, Godsaid you're, you're the one that
(05:15):
keeps walking by.
What are you talking about?
You guys, there's areas of thistown that are very under
resourced and kind of we used toold term inner city.
And so I started driving aroundand saw this dilapidated old
boys and girls club in Ebor in avery, in a very, in a very old
town, pretty tough area of town,and you know, it was just like
voice, this is the place.
And so we kind of, you know,started there.
(05:38):
We pretty much had beenabandoned.
It wasn't even livable oroccupied and we worked with a
Boys and Girls Club and theyweren't using it.
So you can use it for free ifyou want to redo it.
Well, it was $2 million later.
But our congregation, yeah, andwe just started really a program
for kids, you know, andmentoring after school program
(06:01):
for kids and, you know, helpthem to get their education, Of
course, Christ centered.
You know they need a careerpath.
You gotta get educated first,right, you gotta graduate.
That was about 11 years ago andit's still going strong today
and just seen some of the goodgenerational things.
Some of those kids we'veactually seen go to college.
That's scholarships from thedream center to go to college.
(06:22):
So it's been a good story.
But I think in those areasthere's a mentality, you know,
to have a handout and we justreally want to give a hand up,
not out, you know, and plusthey're testing you, how long
are you gonna be here?
And so we've been there, stillthere, and we'll be there till
Jesus comes back.
Heredes (06:41):
I love that.
Yeah, you know, obviouslyyou've led as a staple in the
community and being involved inthe community.
I think you obviously, beingfrom here you went to school
here you know you've known ofall the bars here from your past
.
So there's, you can't avoidthat, but you've continued that
over the years, which has reallybeen a key to your successful
(07:03):
leadership and influence.
Talk to our leaders about thatthe importance of not just come
see us, come to me, come here,but also being out there, being
connected community, whetherit's some of it politics,
whether it's just outreach orsocial services, whether it's
sporting events or relational.
What have you done?
What are some tips on that end?
Pastor Craig Altman (07:24):
I mean, just I look at the New Testament
church.
It wasn't just inside the walls, you have to be outside.
You got to be serving yourcommunity.
Jesus said I didn't come to beserved but to serve.
And church has turned inward sofast.
And that's the challenge in anychurch how do we start?
Stay focused on the community?
And the dream center reallyhelped us to kind of refocus on
hey, there's a place that we'regonna invest into that will
(07:47):
never be reciprocated.
It's not about hey, we're gonnado this and it's just a mission
.
And every church has to bemissional outside the walls or
it gets really stale.
And when you do that, it'samazing.
When we started the dreamcenter, like, how are we gonna
fund it?
How are we gonna do it?
God always provides when youare willing to reach out into
your community and at everylevel.
(08:09):
We're in many schools around.
We've adopted certain publicschools doing just gifts.
We just serve them.
They need a new teacher'slounge.
People go in and help, do thatjust to build a relationship
with the community.
They don't wanna hear aboutJesus, they wanna what are you
gonna do for us?
And as we've done that, we'vebeen able to gain influence in
(08:30):
many of these schools.
So it's been cool to outreachas we've done.
We had something called ServeSaturday where once a month we
have opportunities to serve inconnection with other ministries
.
We don't have to reinvent thewheel, they're already out.
There some great outreachministries In Tampa area.
You have some children's homes,you got metropolitan ministries
(08:50):
, you have home for unwedmothers, you have the prison
ministries, and so we just tryto partner with them and send
our people out.
And a new one that's actuallyevolved New Life Warehouse,
where they provide bedding andfurniture for people.
They don't get it, they taketheir kids away from them.
So there's a lot of cool thingsthat we can partner with and
(09:10):
our people wanna get out there.
I think people want knowthey're called to do something
Love it, Justin.
Heredes (09:15):
You sit on some boards and advise some nonprofits Like
the Dream Center and others.
Tell us about kind of whatyou've seen, some of the best
practices in being present,being out there and not just
come and see, but maybe kind ofgo.
Justin (09:31):
I think that there's a lot of nonprofits that are.
They see themselves already outthere, and so I think there's a
lot of even churches who thinkwhat we're doing in this
location is enough.
This is it, this is good, and Ithink there's a really cool
(09:52):
inspiration we should grab fromchurches and from other
nonprofits that are reaching outand extending beyond what is
their sweet spot, what they'realready doing and collaborating,
and so I think there's adisconnect for so many weeks
because they feel under resource.
But I think what you said aboutthe money God's got the
(10:16):
resources and it's aboutstepping up and actually doing
the reach.
He'll provide what you need Ifhe's put the vision on your
heart.
You need to be obedient is whatI'm hearing you say more than
anything, and I think a lot ofnonprofits need to hear that.
They're like why are we stuck?
Why we're doing the same thingwith the same budgets, and I
(10:36):
find myself on boards,oftentimes being the one trying
to push and trying to say wecan't be 10 years behind where
our audience is.
We've got to make some massivechanges and there's fear with
that.
So let's keep our money in thebank, let's not stretch
ourselves too thin, let's playit safe Because what we're doing
(10:57):
is already dangerous.
Right Like as a nonprofit,we're already trying to do
things that are uncomfortableand stretch us, and so when it
comes to finances and it comesto reaching out beyond our walls
and what is in our sweet spot,we oftentimes just leave it to
somebody else.
I think you guys have said theexample.
I mean, the fruit of that hasbeen that in a city that is
(11:18):
growing and is very difficult tograb new people right In a
culture where there is athousand things to do, it's so
hard to find the thing to do inTampa because there are so much
happening here that somehow youguys are grabbing all of these
transient people you areconnecting because of the work
(11:38):
you're doing outside of thechurch.
I believe, and God's blessing,that and the return is that the
ministry of the church isactually growing and even being,
you know, fastest growingchurch in America, third fastest
growing church in America lastyear.
Pastor Craig Altman (11:52):
I mean, that's what I heard.
Someone had to call me to tellme about it.
Collin (11:55):
Seriously Too busy growing the church.
Pastor Craig Altman (11:57):
Yeah, I said really.
I mean, I knew about thismagazine, did it, but keeping up
.
But you know, back to yourpoint, I think when you stretch,
what we've seen happen is iswhen you start directing back to
the community, all of a sudden,people within your congregation
get a vision for what they'recalled to do in the community
and, if it lines up with ourmission, we've empowered them to
go and do it.
There's some amazing people inour church that lead different
(12:20):
community outreaches and it'spretty cool.
I mean, they're part of anonprofit and now we have people
that go volunteer and help them, even when you the dream center
that was gonna be a bigfinancial thing.
When we've mentioned it, I'mlike God, how are we gonna do
this?
Cause we're getting ready to gomulti-site and God just had
people just start writing checksto something to like that.
(12:42):
And so it's God always meets theneed he really does.
It is scary, though in themoment, there's no doubt.
Justin (12:49):
There's also something that I think is super important
to say, and you might not behappy that I'm gonna say this.
We could just call this wholepodcast lessons I've learned
from Pastor Craig.
But there you go.
That's a title.
There's something to be saidfor the fact that I watched you
pass a lot of opportunities toadd more campuses, to grow
(13:12):
faster, to be more aggressiveand we have a lot of other
churches in America that arethey will.
They'll pop up a locationwithout the right infrastructure
.
They'll pop up without theright support.
They'll just and it's not thathealthy.
And I've seen you pass up supergood opportunities.
I've seen you, at the edge of acontract, pull the plug on
(13:34):
properties.
I've seen you, meanwhile,you're spending tons of money
and resources on outreach.
So I think, even in ourpersonalize, as leaders, as
Christians, as men, we're oftentempted to pull back our
outreach, to expand ourfortresses, and instead I've
watched you, over and over again, wait on God on expansion,
(13:58):
while being faithful to thecalling of the outreach.
Pastor Craig Altman (14:00):
There's tension for both of those.
There really is.
But you know, our goal hasalways been out of our budget,
10% goes into mission.
So, whether it's local orinternational missions or
benevolence, we've been able tofocus at least 10% of our
funding that goes towardsmissions, and above sometimes,
depending on the season thatwe're in.
(14:20):
So, and God just seems toalways be faithful, because God
does want us.
When you mentioned, I mean, it'sso easy, again 30 years, for
churches to turn inward and wehave our issues.
It's fighting that inward pull,but to keep thinking outside
what's good, because what'soutside is there's a lot of
hurting things going on in thereand they may never step foot in
(14:40):
the church.
But if we can start by servingthem, at least you're giving
them up a little bit of arepresentation what's Jesus say?
They will see your good worksand glorify my Father in heaven,
and that's what we should do.
All the glory goes to God too.
We don't look what we're doing.
It's like no.
When they see us doing thesegood works, hopefully that gives
them a reflection that Godcares for them.
Heredes (15:03):
You know I've also seen again another lesson we've
learned from Pastor Craig hereYou've allowed members,
congregation leaders, if theyhad a vision or an idea, to run
with it, empowering them, gowhen.
A lot of times I've seen that Ilike either stop it or like no,
bring it in.
If our church logo and name'snot slapped on it, it's no good.
(15:25):
And it was refreshing to seesecurity in your leadership to
like no, go in power.
Tell us about that tension,because it's a risk.
It's a risk, right, becauseyou're sending human resources,
actual resources.
What's your mentality?
What goes to your head?
Justin (15:37):
People who don't have a bunch of success-leading
nonprofits?
Yeah, exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (15:42):
I mean, it's just, you don't want to be
the lid right.
The church can create the redtape.
You want to maximize ministryand sometimes things got to get
going and then when they kind ofget a little bit messy they'll
come to us and we can maybe helpthem tweak their nonprofit,
their outreach ministry.
But for instance, I'm notpromoting them, but New Life
Warehouse started by a member.
(16:02):
Our name's not on it, it's notanything no one would know.
New Life we're involved withthem but you know they share a
warehouse space with us.
We have like 70% of theirvolunteers come from Grace
Family Church but we don't callit Grace Family Church New Life
Because it's their vision andministry.
But they're part of Grace andwe just love to see people God's
birth of vision in them.
(16:22):
That's an extension of thechurch.
You know, I mean that'sexciting.
I believe the church is thehope of the world.
But from the church should bethese extensions like spokes on
a wheel that go and touchdifferent types of people in our
Tampa Bay area.
Justin (16:39):
We talk a lot about what a healthy church looks like and
I think spawning communityoutreach and nonprofits from
your congregation is a great.
I'm not saying that it's theonly right, but I mean what a
great testament.
I mean there's probably dozensI can think of right now that
are in the Tampa Bay area thathave come from people who've
(17:01):
been pastored and ministered inone way or another at Grace and
are now leading and runningthese organizations, whether
it's full-time and they're bigor small part-time organizations
, but they're making ourcommunity better.
I think it's such a cool way tokind of measure.
If you are doing nonprofit workand you don't see fruit like
(17:22):
that coming from yourorganization, it's a good.
It's definitely good gut check.
Pastor Craig Altman (17:27):
And I think , though, to be fair I mean
we're 30 years old I think thefirst five to five or 10 years,
we were more focused on, youknow, getting our own things
started, which you know that'skind of self-centered, you know.
But as you go on you realize,man, these people need to get
out and do something.
I remember a weekend where wesaid you know, we're going to do
that random acts of kindnessbook that came out.
(17:49):
Well, one weekend we told herone you're going to show up at
church and we're going to dosomething we've never done
before.
And we did this thing where wehad a five-minute service and
said, all right, go, go andserve the world.
And we had a little sheet ofpaper of 10 things they could do
, and so literally, we had likea five-minute service People
went no, no, I want to sing andyou give me the word.
(18:09):
No, no, we're going to go out.
So we've probably got somepeople mad, but that's how you
know.
We wanted to.
We wanted to change things upyou know, because again we all
become inward.
No, I love that.
Heredes (18:20):
And I said OG earlier only because original gangster
of Tampa here.
He's been doing some innovativeradical things in Tampa from
Youth Pastor Days to we may havean extra like director's cut
podcast on just all thecraziness and lots of trouble
the kids you've lost and tripsand all the stories.
Tell me about.
I was going to ask you aboutjust the multiplication piece of
(18:41):
this.
For the leader listening, youknow they're thinking they're in
the four walls and they'refiguring this out.
Grace has expanded right, it's14,000 plus people, butts and
seats, not mentioning the onlineinfluence because that would
double.
Pastor Craig Altman (18:53):
Does that count.
I'm kidding you.
I'm kidding you.
Heredes (18:57):
We've always had that conversation.
Yes, online people are.
If you're listening to this,you're real you're very real.
Pastor Craig went?
I think so, but we love you.
Collin (19:05):
As an online show, you're very real to us.
Heredes (19:07):
Yes, you're very real to us, eight locations, and that
expansion occurred.
When you started back in 30years ago, did you foresee that,
that expansion, thatmultiplication?
Pastor Craig Altman (19:17):
I mean, I really didn't.
I knew that, you know, after awhile God was doing more than
what we realized, and so I hadto step up my leadership game
and I think it starts with andI'll just say this when I do go
sometimes to a pastor'sconference and I speak at some
of these workshops it startswith you.
If you're an insecure leader,you're never going to allow
other people to take the visionbecause you want to be all about
(19:39):
you.
You got to control it.
Everything's got to comethrough me.
And I learned early on man, Idon't, I'm not enough.
I mean, I'm only one part of apuzzle.
You know we need to build dreamteams.
You know we can't have thatwhat I call King Saul mentality.
You know he had David coming upthrough the ranks, this great
warrior, and instead ofencouraging him, he was jealous
(20:01):
of him and became insecure.
And you know there's so manypastors that lose their David's
because they don't allow them toflex their muscles within the,
within the church.
And so that's one thing earlyon.
When you're talking aboutexpansion, your own leadership
capacity these expand.
First, you got to be okay withwho you are and get smarter
people around you.
(20:22):
Listen, I'm telling you, I gota lot smarter people around me
that are, that are stronger thanme.
They in certain lanes that I'mweak in, that's where they're
strong, and and and let them beempowered and let them get the
credit.
You know I say this there's alot of pastors, a lot of big
egos and and it's hard to growministry like that to me, a
healthy one.
So so it starts there.
(20:43):
If you want to expand, you getto expand your own leadership
capacity.
Heredes (20:45):
And we know that you know verse, verse gets to serve
and honor to serve grace.
And we tried slapping Craig'sphoto and everything and he just
keeps coming back sayingPhotoshop it more, please
Photoshop.
Pastor Craig Altman (20:55):
Exactly, you've seen this face, you got
to work on it.
Collin (20:58):
We're talking about finding finding good leaders,
you know, and starting theseinitiatives.
What are you looking for forpeople?
What are maybe some of thecounterintuitive things that
people think someone wants in aleader that you're like no,
maybe leave that behind and whatare the things that you're like
?
This is really.
I know I've found a qualityleader to put in.
Pastor Craig Altman (21:17):
I don't know.
I'd say once right, are theyteachable?
You know I'd start there.
Are they humble?
Are they teachable?
But is there a little riskfactor in them that they like to
kind of, you know, get outthere a little bit?
Are they solution oriented?
Do they see the solution or dothey?
Oh, anybody can tell you theproblem?
We got too many peoplediagnosing things.
No, come to me with a solution.
(21:37):
So I look at, I look at those.
Really just starts with arethey teachable?
You know have been.
Have they been faithful in afew things, like First Timothy?
Give them a few things.
Are they faithful in a fewthings?
And maybe you can give themmore to do.
It's still a moving target.
Sometimes we haven't hit itright every time, but if they
see a secure leader, they wantto come alongside someone who is
(22:02):
secure, who's not threatened.
When, when, when they feel thatwhen, when a leader feels
threatened, he's never going togrow out.
Grow strong leaders, they'regoing to leave people like
serving insecure leaders.
So again, it starts with theleader, but then identifying new
leaders.
Those are some of the traits Ithink about.
Obviously, the traits thatattract us are like, you know,
(22:24):
man, they're charismatic andthey're attractional and that's
great, but if they don't havethese other foundational things,
those kind of people can yeah,I can not work good sometimes,
so you just kind of look for thelook for someone who's
teachable, who asks goodquestions, who will follow
through of assignments.
You know they always say realestate's location, location,
(22:46):
location.
To me, leadership is follow up,follow up, follow up.
Do they follow up and do thelittle things they're supposed
to do?
And that's how you, to me, grow.
You know some good leadership.
That's huge.
I mean you got to let themswing the bat too.
I mean that's the thing youhave to.
People are going to fail.
I mean talk about failures.
As a youth pastor, that was mytraining ground.
(23:06):
People got to be willing toswing the bat and when they miss
, if you're a good leader, youknow you, you go back and you,
you have conversations likeJesus did.
Okay, let's talk about whathappened here.
You know it's a process oflearning and growing as a leader
.
Heredes (23:21):
Pastor Craig, talk to us on the early years.
Like you said earlier,different focus, not
self-centered, but I think it'sa focused.
You have to grow this, you haveto figure out who we are, what
are we doing.
It's a startup mentality, right, as you've developed.
You've delegated, kind ofgalvanized, you've allowed
others to be the face, to be thename, to be the, the
(23:42):
spokesperson, and to a faultalmost that you walk around,
sometimes at locations andthousands of people that you
know, new folks eventually willknow that are you the founder or
are you that guy?
You're the, but they may noteven know.
Right, how was that transition?
Because that's not standardpractice, if you may.
Pastor Craig Altman (24:02):
Well, now everybody's in a different
season.
I think when you're firststarting something, it needs to
be your imprint, your DNA, yourinjecting your DNA into that
church early on.
But I wish one thing I wouldhave done earlier in my ministry
is have more of a shared model,even from the teaching.
I was doing most of theteaching the first 20 years, 45
(24:24):
weekends a year, and that was alittle bit of a grind and you
know.
But for me, the season I'm innow I love.
I must decrease, I must increase, I love the season to see other
people win and I think ourchurch is healthier than it's
ever been because of the more ofa shared leadership where it's
not built on a personality itreally isn't.
(24:47):
Now I have a team of two orthree of us that do the teaching
and it sets diversity.
In that it's been very healthyfor the church.
So for me, the season I'm in, Iwanna do that.
But I really think it's a modelother guys should look at.
Because if you're the only oneand you're hit by a truck
(25:08):
tomorrow, where's the ministry,Where's the church at?
I'll be honest, if I'm hit by atruck tomorrow, I think we're
gonna be okay.
Justin (25:15):
So I don't wanna get by a truck, but if I am, I'm such a
gold-davichand yeah well, wecould probably count a lot more
really large churches that havesuffered and struggled when that
single leader has gone down,Whether it's hit by a truck or a
moral failure or anything.
There's not that many that aredoing this model and I imagine
(25:41):
that it took a lot of risk foryou to embrace it and stick with
it, Because I know I'm not theonly one who has heard multiple
times where people say I loveyour preaching.
Can you just preach all thetime?
I would be, you know, and I'mjust not to say I love all the
people who are preaching rightnow but I but who's?
your favorite though.
Heredes (25:59):
I'm kidding.
Justin (25:59):
But you've had to deal with that.
You had to hear that, probablyweek after week for a long time,
and stick with that conviction.
Pastor Craig Altman (26:05):
Yeah, and it's still a little muddy.
I mean, a shared model is stillpretty challenging and for us
we're working through some ofthe finer details of that, but I
really believe that it's a goodprotection for the long-term
success of the church if it'snot dependent on one person, but
when you have three or four orfive people in a high-level role
(26:27):
and they're leading together,obviously you need to have a
tiebreaker, but it's not easy,but for me it's a better way for
us to do it.
Justin (26:37):
You're saying it's worth it.
Pastor Craig Altman (26:38):
Oh yeah, absolutely yeah yeah.
Collin (26:41):
So for those churches or nonprofit organizations who
might be kind of in that middlespace there, maybe they were
relying heavily on thatleadership personality.
But they're realizing, hey, howdo they do that?
How do they manage that?
What are they?
Is that something that you'resaying Like try to get out of
that to the multiplicity earlyon?
Like how do they manage that?
Pastor Craig Altman (27:00):
I mean number one.
You gotta know that God'scalling you to do it.
I'm not saying this foreverybody.
And then you gotta be veryintentional about it.
I mean very intentional,Obviously I'm 65.
So this next level ofleadership I'm looking at had to
be people younger, right,You're looking for that, some of
them, not all, but a youngergroup that has proven themselves
(27:22):
at some level to say, okay,let's see if this can be the
group.
And that's really where a lotof my time in investment is,
that right now, just helpingthem understand how I think and
talking about it and lettingthem lead.
I mean, really 85% of our churchright now is not led by me.
I mean there are decisions madeand it's hard because I have
preferences and I've realized mypreferences don't matter Now.
(27:45):
Core values are different.
So I'm learning there's betweena preference and a core value.
I mean most leaders are verymuch high D, control people and
there's a lot you have tosurrender.
I can tell you I'm still goingthrough it, but I feel like I'm
in our church in a much betterplace now.
I don't feel as much stress.
I think that until you allowpeople to make decisions, you
(28:09):
don't know if they have what ittakes, and so it's challenging,
but it's very rewarding for me.
Collin (28:19):
Yeah, I imagine one of the probably most difficult
parts of that is just time, isbeing willing and being able to
make the time to spend withthose people, cause you can send
them video courses but likethere's nothing to replace
actual time with them to developthem.
Pastor Craig Altman (28:33):
Yeah, I think the Crockpot idea is the
best, because I think when thereare transitions of large
churches it's almost so quick ofa handoff because they really
weren't thinking about it, sothen they just think they can do
it in 12 months.
I'm here now, I'm not here, andthis guy is like man.
That can be very difficult.
So ours has been a pretty mucha six, seven year process and
(28:54):
just slowly shaping and againthere's a lot of rumors that
come out Craig's leaving.
When I start allowing otherpeople to speak and I'm never
gonna leave my role might beredefined, but I don't plan on
leaving.
Heredes (29:08):
The rumor I heard is that you're gonna go play for
the Bucks or something.
Is that right?
Pastor Craig Altman (29:10):
Yeah, that was years ago.
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
Heredes (29:13):
I was telling Colin that earlier.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about your book, your
big fan, of course.
Tell us a little bit about yourbook.
Pastor Craig Altman (29:19):
You're taking a right turn here, see.
See, that was years ago.
I mean, I always loved footballand dreamed of playing for the
Buccaneers.
I'd gotten saved and I'd go.
This is what God's gonna do.
He's gonna use this platform toplay for the Bucks, and they
had a terrible field goal kickerat the time.
So I had been training as afield goal kicker and I
eventually got a tryout.
(29:40):
But when I got into the roomactually for the application it
was pretty funny was John McKaywas in there just back in 1978,
something like that.
Heredes (29:48):
It's a bright orange jersey.
He's back there Orange jerseythat's right.
Pastor Craig Altman (29:51):
And they said hey, you're not even old
enough to play in the NFL, Allthat and so I didn't even get to
go on a field.
But officially I had beeninvited for a tryout and they
wanted me to go play semi-profootball, which wasn't gonna
work, because you don't justfield goal kick, you gotta play
another position, and these guysare way too big.
And so that was the end of myfootball career, but that was
the beginning of God reallyshowing me what he wanted me to
(30:12):
do.
That's why I tell people you'redreaming, I'll be God's dream,
but you're dead end.
It's not a dead end for God.
Collin (30:18):
Well, how often do you think people do that?
Well, they've got thisdirection and they follow that
and all of a sudden, god takesthat.
It's just good at that, buttakes that right turn.
Yeah, how does that?
I feel like that probablyhappens a lot.
Pastor Craig Altman (30:30):
I think it does happen a lot.
I mean, as long as we're moving, god can direct us.
But when you're standing stillnot taking chances and not
taking risks, what can God do?
And you're sitting therewaiting.
I mean, I think we take stepsand then God can direct us.
It's great.
Heredes (30:44):
I love what you said earlier.
I wanna go back to thepreferences over values and the
discernment of that, because Ithink many times we'll make a
big deal out of a preference,something actually that it's not
a core value.
And how do you hear from Godthe sermon?
How do you process?
Who do you listen to?
Pastor Craig Altman (31:01):
I can tell you the last seven years been
great, but it's been frustratingfor me.
Preferences I gotta let go ofmy preferences.
Why are they doing it that way?
Well, as long as we have thesame outcome, what do I care?
And that's still a struggle tothis day.
So I don't think that ever getseasy for any type D leader.
But man, I'd rather see.
(31:22):
I'd rather empower 10 people todo something that's gonna
multiply itself, and maybethey're doing it 85%, the way I
think it should be done.
But then, instead of me, oneperson.
It just makes sense, right?
There's a multiplication factorwhen you empower others to
begin leading and they're gonnado things differently.
Justin (31:41):
You have an example of one that's been hard for you.
I might encourage somebody elsewho's maybe in that same seat
Wow.
Pastor Craig Altman (31:49):
I mean I can take a lot of examples.
Justin (31:52):
Which one can you say?
Pastor Craig Altman (31:55):
I mean, I was a youth pastor for years.
I've had to let go of youthministry and even how we do
summer camps, though I can tellyou five things I would do
differently, and I've just hadto pull out on Goldcombe just
gonna keep my mouth shut andthey're mostly preferences.
I would have done it this way,I'd done it that way.
Now I will still get in theweeds sometimes.
That would be one area that Iwould say you know, there's some
(32:20):
multiple things that I could gointo, but you just gotta grow
up.
You know you do, man, I realize.
Listen.
You find out how much ego youhave in pride when you finally
start surrendering.
Heredes (32:33):
And it's difficult because you were successful at
it.
So therefore, the trackrecord's there.
Why wouldn't we do it?
How much of it is it likeparenting, right, you have to
let.
Sometimes you can teach yourkids, but you gotta let your
kids do it.
Pastor Craig Altman (32:46):
Very good, that's a great analogy.
Their own way.
Heredes (32:49):
And they'll come back.
I'm like thanks, dad, or likeyou're right that, or see that
it worked the same way, right,yeah, yeah.
Yeah you're a grandfather now,so you know, yeah, exactly,
thank you, you've gone throughit.
Well, grandparents don't get todo that, they just get to like
who cares.
Collin (33:02):
You just kind of like you know, you're just a fun one
now I think every leader, I mean.
Pastor Craig Altman (33:06):
Another thing I'll say about leadership
in general.
I mean, do you really havepeople that have permission to
speak to you about your blindspots?
I mean they say, oh yeah, Ihave people.
No, the feedback they give youis what you wanna hear, because
they're afraid they're gonna getfired, you know.
And so that feedback culture ishard to develop in any
nonprofit organization.
(33:26):
But I promise you we have blindspots.
I have blind spots.
My wife's really good attelling me those, which you know
is hard sometimes coming fromyour spouse.
But I would say leadership, yougotta make sure you have people
that can come to you, that youknow are in your corner, that
will tell you the truth.
Yeah, you know, whether theysay faithful or the wounds of a
(33:49):
friend, but the faithful or thekisses of an enemy too many
strong, dominant CEOs andpastors of churches they have.
You know they're not as open asyou would think you know, to
feedback and we just gotta letgo of some of that.
Heredes (34:07):
Yeah, that's good, pastor Craig.
One of the questions that comesin all the time and it's
becoming a recurring themebecause it's been helpful to our
listeners it's on fundraisingright and, for nonprofits, the
idea of developing donors,activating them, engaging them,
building relationships.
30 years plus, including andplus if you add youth group
years and beyond.
(34:27):
Give us some insight.
How have you done it?
What's God done?
But through your leadership orthe team, et cetera?
It's funny.
I've never been to.
Pastor Craig Altman (34:34):
Bible school.
But I heard that's one thingall these guys wish Bible school
at a time.
These Bible school would havetaught them about fundraising,
because really, what stopsvision is lack of leadership and
lack of funding.
Right, and it was the hardestthing to do.
I mean, money is such asensitive subject.
We all know it is.
You know, talk about my mother,but don't talk about money.
And early on it was hard.
I mean, I remember doing myfirst tithing message and
(34:56):
apologizing the whole timethrough it and one of my biggest
donors came to me and said doyou believe in what you're
preaching?
I said, yeah, he goes.
You better act like or I'm gonnastop giving because, you're
passionate about everything elsebut you're apologizing about I
went.
Oh, okay.
So you know.
And fundraising, you know,first of all, you have to really
(35:17):
believe in what you're doingand then you're giving people
the why right.
People give the vision right.
They give to a vision, and soyou gotta make the vision
compelling.
And you have to be unapologetic, not brash, but unapologetic
about this is I'm excited andyou need to see this is so
important for us to do as achurch or whatever your
organization is.
And I tell you what, whenyou're dealing with large donors
(35:41):
, you better have your facts,you better have your due
diligence done.
What the cost are, or whatwe're gonna do if it's a
building, here's what it's gonnacost, here's the size, here's
where we're at right now.
They wanna know the facts, youknow.
So there's some things I'velearned over the years.
Collin (35:59):
And what if you don't have that?
What if you have the vision andyou believe in the vision and
it's something that's deep inyour heart but you don't
necessarily have all?
Is that like a no-go or is thatlike how they measure that?
Pastor Craig Altman (36:09):
I tell you, for the business type people,
they wanna see something onpaper.
You gotta get someone to helpyou articulate what's in your
head on paper, right?
I mean you have to.
They wanna see that you'vetaken time to write it down.
That's what I've learned overthe years and again.
Here's what I do know too andit's different from a church,
(36:32):
from certain non-profits, insome ways, because in people in
church there's a lot of peoplethat have a lot of money that if
you don't know how to make theask, they're gonna give it
somewhere.
You know, and I know that forus we're gonna make sure the
vision is compelling and yourbuilding relationship.
(36:55):
For me, part of my job isbuilding relationship with
donors.
They wanna know you, they wannaand that helps as you're
building those bridges to them.
So then when you have a need,you're not starting this brand
new.
Hey, I don't know you, butwould you like to?
They get to know you, they getto know the vision.
That makes it easier.
Collin (37:17):
Well, I imagine that makes up for a lot too.
If you have that genuinerelationship, I think people
might be willing to overlooksome things because they've
already built that trust withyou, so maybe they're not
needing all of that because theyknow who you are Exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (37:31):
Advantage for me 30 years.
We have a little bit of a trackrecord.
But raising funds makes mostpastors very nervous and
uncomfortable.
It's an uncomfortable place tobe.
It seems self-serving.
Even when I get up and do aseries every year on finances
and it seems like it'sself-serving.
But we know when they investand give it's not just helping
(37:54):
us, it's helping otherministries that we support.
No one sees the inside ofwhat's really going on in your
organization.
That's why you got to give themthe inside behind the scenes.
You got to give them thestories, the testimonies of
what's going on.
Justin (38:07):
You do a great job, even when you talk about money,
about breaking down finances forthe organization right, so you
oftentimes like a very accuratereport of where all the money is
going when you're talking aboutyeah we give them like a pie
shape.
Pastor Craig Altman (38:21):
You know, they don't realize.
You know really your utilitybills a hundred thirty thousand
dollars a year, or you know, oryou know, or whatever it is.
They have no idea.
When you got seven or eightcampuses, it's like can you
imagine having seven houses andmaintaining all those houses and
some of those?
So it helps them to see that alot of people like to hear that
other people or anti-big church.
I'll see that you've got toomany months, too much money in
(38:43):
the building, so you, it's soyeah, those people are not able
to do a cost per person analysis, then yeah.
How about running?
Justin (38:54):
three million dollar budget for 300 people.
Pastor Craig Altman (38:57):
Yeah, but yeah, it's funny, but you know
it's something that the Bible'strue.
I think when people understandthe principles of giving, it
helps them, because I believeGod blesses you when you become
generous In your giving and inyour life.
In fact, the funny thing is forme, the last two or three times
I've gone to speak and I don'tgo do a lot of outside speaking
(39:19):
but the last two or three guysthey what do you want me to
speak on?
All three of them said I wantyou to speak on giving.
They've gone back to some ofthe.
It's hard for, but I can saythings they can't say yeah at
their church.
Yeah, and I've had phenomenalresults do.
It's funny some of the phonecalls I get.
Heredes (39:32):
So it's pretty funny if you want to book Pastor Craig,
we're gonna put.
Collin (39:37):
Things there that you can't say your church yeah don't
want Viagra mentioned though.
Heredes (39:43):
Wow, yeah, there's an additional.
Yeah, put that in the country,but you know what?
Pastor Craig Altman (39:47):
I think I'm finding move, though, but I
think but I think giving yougotta be straightforward people
Compassionate, but here's thedeal.
Here's what the Bible says andthe word is weighty enough on it
.
We don't need to beat people upon it, but the words, word says
enough.
Heredes (40:02):
Yeah, so no, that, not apologizing, just starting with
it, not apologizing for it, yeah, don't fear.
Pastor Craig Altman (40:06):
That's the hardest part of leadership,
though, like you said aboutfundraising, it is.
It is hard.
Collin (40:10):
Yeah, well, it's interesting that story you
shared because you probably inthat moment, by apologizing, you
thought you were opening thedoor wider, you know, but you
were closing it.
Yeah, you were closing the doorand there were people that were
saying I'm not, yeah.
That's communicating.
This person does not believe inwhat they're doing exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman (40:26):
That's a lot of big lesson I learned
early on.
Yeah, absolutely.
Heredes (40:29):
It's huge talk to the leader looking to start a church
, start an unprofit.
What are some questions you'reasking?
You're encouraging them,discouraging them, or that of
the mind, or they what?
What would you tell them?
Pastor Craig Altman (40:41):
number one.
No, God's called you to do itbecause you're gonna go through
some Challenging times early on.
If you know God's told you to doit, that's a stake in the
ground.
Have some good advisors aroundyou, I mean early on, have
people around you At every levelhelping you.
I mean, write the vision down.
You know what are the two orthree things that you would say,
(41:02):
the why is it why you do itright?
Here's why we're doing this andhere's what we think the
outcomes will be.
And keep it very simple, people, I think.
I just think that, whether it'sa church or a nonprofit, we can
get so scattered Laser.
Focus on what the main thing isand stay on the main thing.
Keep it the main thing.
(41:24):
As a church grew, as our churchgrew, everybody wants to get
involved.
Their projects we had to knowis that God wants to do that or,
and we just you got to stayfocused on the main thing.
Heredes (41:33):
Hmm, has gold right there.
That's gold.
I think I think that's a clip,I think that's a promo clip
right there.
What are the right way that inthe bag you're still?
Justin (41:41):
you're still doing that today, though.
You're still putting peoplearound, you're still questioning
.
Pastor Craig Altman (41:45):
You're still listening, yeah.
Yeah, I have some people on ourboard they're very smart that
have built businesses and infact one of our guys build a
business.
It was kind of like amulti-site he had.
He was in the food business buthe bought up and acquired like
18 others over the nation.
Then he sold the company.
But I said, hey, I'm startingthis multi-site, how do I?
(42:06):
And he really helped usunderstand how to build.
There's.
Certain principles aretransferable, right Totally.
You got to always be learning,man, I mean that's great.
Yeah, I could talk about fivethings never to do if you want
to.
Heredes (42:18):
We could do that one too.
Pastor Craig Altman (42:19):
I mean, I mean, you know we talk about.
There's so many ten things youknow.
I would always said if I wrotea book, it'd be ten things not
to do as a leader.
You know, and and yeah welisten.
Collin (42:30):
We can remove this if we need to.
I'm curious.
A lot of years of speaking,what's one of the most
regrettable or embarrassingthings you've ever said from a
stage?
Pastor Craig Altman (42:39):
Oh wow, other than Viagra, yeah, that
was that might not even be there, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know,
over the years, I'm trying tothink.
Collin (42:49):
I'm just too many to sift through?
Pastor Craig Altman (42:51):
Yeah, I have a lot of a lot of food paws
in there.
I'm just trying to think of.
Heredes (42:57):
We'll do a podcast with Debbie.
I'm sure she can share.
Pastor Craig Altman (43:01):
Yeah, one time I was talking about I
remember was talking about Jonahand the whole thing was about
Jonah I said no at a whole time.
I Kept knowing the way peoplewere waving at me trying and at
the end they go.
You started with the book ofJonah and you talked about no
other hole, used the name, noone said a Jonah, and I'm like
all that.
And then my son, who nevercommented on any of my messages,
(43:23):
he was like ten years old, saiddad, that was really funny.
What happened?
I said what?
Because I said it was a newyear and I say, hey, we all need
a fresh start.
Well, I said we all need afresh fart and that's what you
equally true.
That's the only thing.
Then I was doing a wedding.
(43:45):
One time I'm real sayingmarriage is not an option
instead of divorce is not, yeah.
And then the funeral my veryfirst funeral In some of you
might have very first funeralever did.
I was my new church, trying toimpress people.
I've wouldn't a youth pastoranymore, I'm a pastor and and
we're going from the, from thechurch, to the grave site and I
(44:07):
was in the car with a friend ofmine hey, you want to drive me
to the grave site?
As we started talking, I forgotwhere I was at and you know how
you get a long line of carswith the lights on.
I was in the back and I saidwhy are these people driving so
slow?
They're in the right lane so Izoom around them, I'm flooring
it, going past them in the leftlane and I pass everybody,
including the hearse, and thehearse guy looked at me like
what are you doing?
(44:27):
And then I ease back in.
The problem was having to getto the cemetery and all those
people knew that I would justdone that.
Like who is this idiot pastor?
Yeah, and I had to close out.
You know, dust to dust and Ithought I was dust to dust.
You know my last time as apastor.
He just climbed in the casket.
Oh yeah, I wanted to burymyself.
Collin (44:49):
Yeah, that's incredible.
Pastor Craig Altman (44:49):
Yeah, so, but yeah, I can't think of some
sermon ones, but they'redefinitely a few of them out
there.
Did you ever some of?
Justin (44:55):
your humility came honestly.
Heredes (45:03):
Did you ever lead worship.
Pastor Craig Altman (45:06):
You know that's not true, but they have
mic'd me before.
One time we had a Christmas.
We should do a Christmas thingwhere it just fun things.
We'd have fun, and this onewere a lot smaller, and one of
the things they decided to dowas they had me mic'd up when I
was singing from and they had itset up for the Christmas
banquet and they go.
Now we're gonna hear fromPastor Craig and his version of
(45:29):
whatever it was, and it was justme singing and you didn't know
that they were recording it.
And it was terrible.
I was the only time I said yougot to turn that off right now.
It maybe never want to singagain.
Heredes (45:41):
That's a preference pass yeah, yeah.
Before we wrap and if you haveany final thoughts again, thank
you for the time.
Give us a little insight.
Can you leak anything?
We're celebrating 30 years.
What's up, what's ahead, what'snext?
Pastor Craig Altman (45:54):
Oh boy.
Well, you know our 30 yearanniversary is coming up and we
thought we should do somethingbig.
And and then we shifted andsaid, no, we're gonna do, we're
gonna do a 30 year anniversary.
But it's not gonna be about us.
We're gonna really do it onEaster at at the stadium right,
raymond James Stadium, nicebecause we think we can reach
Thousands of people who wouldnot normally come to church on
(46:14):
Easter to a neutral site.
So we're kind of really firedup about that, getting ready to
the plan for that, and it'sgonna be an invitation For Tampa
Bay to come to Easter to hearabout the greatest comeback ever
.
Heredes (46:26):
Let's go, yeah so it should be good If you're
listening.
Pastor Craig Altman (46:30):
you're invited you missed it Easter
Sunday.
Watch it online.
Heredes (46:32):
It'll be Easter Sunday, yeah are you gonna finally get
your your kick?
Pastor Craig Altman (46:37):
Yeah, I might do it.
Yeah, one field goal?
Yeah, no, I'd pull a groin orsomething.
But I would say, if I would say, if I could summarize one thing
about leadership is I'm a veryserious leader, but don't take
yourself too seriously.
You know, I Some, we just can'tcome off unapproachable, overly
(46:57):
religious.
Keep it real.
Authenticity is so important.
Humility, admitting when you'rewrong, you know, hey, I screwed
up.
You gain more respect from yourleaders when you can admit
you've done something wrong.
That's probably the biggestcomplaint I hear is they never
admit that they're wrong.
And I think admitting you'rewrong is not a weakness, is
actually a strength, you know.
(47:18):
So don't take yourself tooseriously.
I like just having fun, it'sgood.
Heredes (47:22):
You've modeled that well.
That's your great.
Yeah, you have.
Thank you for the time, thankyou for the principles and be
sure to follow Patrick Craig,follow GFC Florida online and
all those links for you.
All that grace is doing, sotake us up, yeah.
Collin (47:35):
Hey guys, thank you so much for listening, like,
subscribe, share and we'll seeyou next time on the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Outro (47:43):
Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites aRenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email.
At podcast at first, creativecomm.
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