February 21, 2024 • 59 mins
Learn the secrets of transformative fundraising with Roy Jones, a fundraising maestro with a treasure trove of experience spanning over thirty years. This episode brims with essential strategies and heartwarming wisdom, as Roy guides us through the nuances of donor relations—highlighting the art of seeing donations as investments and the importance of grasping the donor's journey. His invaluable insights are drawn from an impressive career, including impactful roles at Liberty University and Mercy Ships, and he now shares his expertise through his new venture, Fit Fundraising.
Throughout our discussion, we zero in on the pivotal art of nurturing relationships with donors. We dissect the profiles of different donor types, from those giving with all their heart to those who smartly invest in the causes they cherish. I peel back the layers on the challenges of soliciting donations across state lines, while sharing anecdotes from my own fundraising escapades with schools and shelters that exemplify the profound impact of understanding what truly motivates donors. This episode is a masterclass in preventing donor attrition and encouraging their ascent up the 'donor ladder' by aligning with their deepest passions.
As we wrap our conversation with Roy, we share a page from detective Columbo's book, employing the "one more thing" approach to keep donors engaged and invested. The exchange is packed with strategies on cultivating donor connections and navigating the dance of communication in fundraising, from the power of a well-placed phone call to the delight of a handwritten note. Tune in for a potent mix of personal stories, clever tactics, and the kind of practical advice that can only come from years of experience in the field, all designed to help your nonprofit forge lasting bonds and drive successful fundraising campaigns.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heredes (00:08):
Well welcome to the nonprofit Renaissance.
Collin (00:10):
You're doing the intro now, is that?
Outro (00:11):
what's happening.
Heredes (00:13):
We've been talking, we've been hanging and you're
listening to none other thanlisten.
Development officer, theoriginal, the OG for Liberty
University here.
Is that correct?
Yeah, we're talking mercy shipinvolvement and we're going to
dive into now.
You did not.
You were not captain of theboat, right?
Roy Jones (00:29):
I was not.
Okay, that's not what thatplace would be lost if I was
captain of one of the ships.
Heredes (00:34):
But and much, much more .
The list goes on and we'regoing to talk a lot today about
fit fundraising, about his bookRain Making, but please welcome
to the podcast con, the one, theonly.
Collin (00:43):
Roy Jones.
Heredes (00:45):
Roy Jones.
Applause yes.
Collin (00:46):
How's it going?
It's so good to have you.
Let me run through real quick30 years, 30 plus years, and I'm
not a heavyweight boxingchampion.
Roy Jones (00:53):
But for the record Roy Jones Jr did give me
RoyJonesorg.
Oh wow, very cool.
It didn't make me fight for it.
Collin (01:02):
I was going to say you offered.
He was like no, I don't want to.
Roy Jones (01:05):
Once he saw what we were doing and helping
nonprofits, he actually gave ustheorg.
Heredes (01:10):
What a great pay per view fundraising.
Hey, we're doing a live fightbetween Roy Jones and Roy Jones.
Roy Jones (01:14):
I can't outweigh the guy, but I'm an old center from
Liberty University.
Russell played heavyweightnever boxed.
Collin (01:21):
Oh wow, you get a well MMA then we'll do MMA.
Outro (01:24):
Take him to the ground.
Collin (01:25):
Well, it's a 30 plus years of relationship building,
coalition development, marketing, fundraising experience.
You've got a book out, an awardwinning book, called Rain
Making the Fundraisers Guide toLanding Big Gifts.
Talked about servicedevelopment, vice president at
Mercy Ships.
You've got degrees andcertifications for days served
on multiple big boards of bigorganizations.
So I'm really excited to diveinto this conversation with you
(01:48):
to talk about fundraising andhelp our nonprofit listeners get
the big gifts, get the bigdonors, because that's how
they're going to do theirmission.
Heredes (01:58):
Yeah, you told us about RoyJonesorg already.
So well, that can redirect.
But tell us about FitFundraising.
Roy Jones (02:05):
Well, we decided to create a brand around what we do
and that's really what we do.
It started out my wife and Iset up a foundation to do
training for nonprofit leadersand it was originally called
Fundraising Institute Trainingand that's where the Fit acronym
came from and so that kind ofstuck and then it went to Fit
(02:26):
Fundraising and it really isjust helping people understand
how to minister to donors,because that's really what we do
.
There are certain people innonprofit organizations to get,
to get to minister and care forpeople, for puppies, for kittens
, for all kinds of neat things.
But I feel called to ministerto people who provide the
(02:49):
resources to make that stuffhappen.
Collin (02:52):
And so you've got a pretty impressive career behind
you, and I think you said youlaunched this fairly recently.
Roy Jones (03:00):
Yeah, really, just about seven months ago, we
rebranded, staffed up, and we'vegot about eight clients right
now.
One of the unique things thatwe do, though and it's part of
our marketing strategy is weprovide free fundraising counsel
(03:21):
, and so we've actually helped41 different nonprofits this
year.
Eight of them started paying us, and so All right, so let's
start there.
Heredes (03:28):
So let's break that down, so you're offering free
advice, free counsel, free.
Collin (03:34):
What does that look like?
What do you know?
Roy Jones (03:36):
Yeah, it usually begins by a lot of people think
I can just hire the big bald guyand he's got a secret magic
black book of donors.
Heredes (03:44):
Was that dot com available?
Big bald guy Dot com.
Roy Jones (03:49):
And he's got this secret magic black book and he
can just open them up.
And people know him and he'syou know, he raised 200 million
at Mercy Ships.
He, you know he raised 400million over five years at Libby
University.
He's raised a lot of moneyother places.
A lot of people know him, sothey'll just give to me too.
Doesn't work that way, yeah,and the first thing I do is
start with their donor file.
(04:11):
If it's 100 donors, 1,000donors, 10,000 donors or 50,000
donors, it starts with theirfile.
And what I help them to do tobegin with is do a real analysis
on our donors climbing theladder.
Are they upgrading?
Because what most people failto realize, these major donors,
(04:35):
they don't come from my list,they come from their list and
they don't give money away, theymake investments.
Heredes (04:42):
That's good.
Roy Jones (04:43):
So a big donor, somebody with great capacity,
their first gift I mean, Ichallenge people who's your
biggest individual donor?
They'll give me a name.
So what do you think theirfirst gift was?
Oh, 10,000, 50,000.
Let's look at the file.
Yep, it's usually under ahundred bucks, boom.
Heredes (05:00):
Testing the waters.
Roy Jones (05:01):
And that's what they do.
They do their giving just likethey do their investments.
They put a little bit in.
They see a return on thatinvestment.
They see impact.
Guess what they do?
They add a zero.
That usually takes a majordonor three to five gifts before
they're at their capacity level.
And it's getting people tounderstand that that the
solution of the problem they'rehaving with fundraising is right
(05:22):
in front of them.
Every day.
I mean, I'm with ministries,I'm with nonprofits.
Every day I hear them say I'vebeen in the room with them when
they prayed God, give us amillion dollars.
We need this.
This will help us.
God doesn't send money, hesends people.
He's with money.
Yeah, and it's our job.
(05:44):
The worst mistake we make infundraising is asking
millionaires for 25 bucks.
And we do it every day.
And we do it every day and weprayed and we said please,
please, you know we, we, youknow.
And guess what?
He provided the solution.
And because they were on yourchicken list or because you
didn't take the time to get toknow them, to see what their
(06:06):
passion was, to see where theirheart was, to see what they had
been prepared to do, why theydidn't matter whether they were
introduced to you through paidsearch Doesn't matter whether
they were introduced to youthrough through direct mail,
doesn't matter whether they wereintroduced to you through an
event or some community activity.
They were brought your way fora purpose, and that's our job is
(06:26):
showing people.
Listen you, you've got toqualify people and that's people
, and I mean, of course I'm kindof focused on and sorry to
sound like a preacher- but, I'mreally focused on the parable of
the talents, that's right.
You know I, you know, I mean youknow somebody.
God sends me somebody thatwants to give a thousand dollars
(06:48):
.
I'm not going to ask them for25.
And guess what?
I do the right thing in athousand.
They're going to add a zero andit becomes 10.
They do the right thing with 10.
Guess what?
They're going to add a zero andit becomes a hundred.
Outro (07:00):
That's how it happens.
Roy Jones (07:01):
That's how it happens and so often, you know, we
donors go away.
Big donors come to a nonprofitand they give a time or two.
We treat them like just aregular donor.
We send them all this, you know, e blasts and direct mail and
and I do all that stuff, youknow.
But it's our job to find outwho they are.
(07:23):
And creates you segmentation,create unique messaging so that
the bigger capacity donors getbigger projects to look at and
the regular donors get thesmaller projects to look at.
Heredes (07:37):
Let's stop, let's pause for a second there.
Break that down for a listener.
They're a nonprofit leader,c-suite.
They've been at it for a while.
How are you doing that today?
Break segmentating.
How are you creating differentmess?
How are you identifying numberone?
Let's say it's just an emailand a phone number on your list.
What are some tips?
Some hacks?
This is the free stuff, guys.
Then you got to call Roy forthe rest but you got to stop
that.
Roy Jones (07:57):
Okay, Create free offers, but you'll.
Free is a relative term.
You only get free if you giveme your name and address there
we go.
So I can't do wealth researchwith an email.
I can't do wealth research witha phone number to be honest
with you.
Heredes (08:11):
Okay, what does it take ?
Bring it on.
Roy Jones (08:12):
I need a physical address.
Okay, if I have a physicaladdress it's kind of scary,
bring it on, but I could.
I basically know all the assetsregistered at that address.
Every household in America hasbeen indexed.
They pretty much know that thedisposable income of every
household in America, it'savailable, any asset you know.
(08:34):
You say any asset, pretty muchany asset cars.
Believe it or not.
People forget the securityexchange commission is a
government entity and guess whatthe SEC does?
They rent that money out.
You apply for a small businessloan or you apply for a second
mortgage.
If you don't check the boxspecifically prohibiting them
(08:57):
from using that data before yourloan is approved or denied, the
wealth profiling companies haveit.
Heredes (09:04):
There it is.
This is worth the podcast.
Roy Jones (09:06):
ladies and gentlemen, we're just going to put this
clip on repeat and that's worththat's gold.
But you've got to get aphysical name and address.
Heredes (09:14):
That's where the magic happens, and it's funny in a
digital world how much wedevalue the address Because we
feel like an email.
Oh, that's a social mail.
It's a waste of.
Let me tell you somethingLinkedIn gives me the six figure
.
Roy Jones (09:24):
Here's what I learned at Mercy Ships.
Here's what I learned at LibraUniversity.
Here's what I've learned when Iwas at Russ Reed and they had
over 600 nonprofit clients.
If I can just break even on thedirect response program, I'll
do that every day.
Outro (09:39):
Hands down.
Roy Jones (09:40):
Wow, because I make my money with the big gifts.
That's it.
You know, if you're nettingmoney in your digital
acquisition program, you're notspending enough.
If you're making money in yourpaid search, you're not spending
enough.
If you're making money in youremail marketing campaigns,
(10:03):
you're not spending enough,because your net should come
from your one-on-ones.
How many people are you meetingwith?
Those are the metrics thatcount and it's teaching people
that.
Hey, because here's the thingpeople with capacity.
Don't get me wrong.
As I said, there's two bucketsof donors.
There are those that I lovinglycall the Widows Might donor.
(10:29):
They give everything they have.
They give out of SocialSecurity.
They don't have a big gift togive, but they give as much as
they can.
The worst thing you can do ispush them or twist their arm.
You can push them right out ofthe boat by asking for too much,
but then you have that othergroup, the parable of the
(10:49):
talents group, that they'remaking investments and they're
increasing their giving.
You've got to spend time withthose people.
Those people don't do businesswith strangers.
They give on average, accordingto the Association of
Fundraising Professionals, a 7.2charities a year.
Now, when I was at Mercy Ships,we actually surveyed 2,000 of
(11:10):
our top donors and found outthat they gave to 11 charities a
year.
So it depends on the nonprofit.
But that's what you have tounderstand.
If you don't get with them andbuild relationships with them,
the other nonprofits are andguess what they do.
You go from being number one tonumber four, to number six, to
(11:31):
number seven, to giving everyother year to guess what they
lapsed.
Yeah, so when the donors climbup the ladder.
But donors can also climb downthe ladder and then, if you
don't treat them right, theyfall off the ladder.
Collin (11:45):
So so what's?
So?
What's the secret?
Because you know how do we?
How do we get them then tocontinue to climb up the ladder
and and not go down right?
What's what's?
What's the yin and the yangthere?
Roy Jones (11:55):
It's about their passion, not yours.
You know, the first thing I didwhen I got to Mercy ships, we I
think they had three people onstaff and they had these IBM
surface pads and on those padswere loaded PowerPoint
presentations and they weregoing out with donors and flip
page, flip page, flip page, flippage.
(12:16):
We need this much money here.
Flip page, flip place, put itneeded here.
So I walked in and said I got anew tool and I grabbed those
surfaces, picked them up,stacked them on the table.
So we have a new tool and ifyou can't see me, it's been in
paper and we're gonna sit andwe're gonna talk to people,
we're gonna find out what theirpassion is and Then fundraising
(12:38):
is easy.
You don't need that bigPowerPoint deck, you know.
You don't need that super demo.
It's about their passion.
Nine times out of ten theyalready know what they want to
do.
They're just waiting forsomebody to ask them and you
find that out, yeah man bylistening, listening, by
listening as the bestfundraisers are always the best
(13:00):
listeners and I've hiredHundreds.
That's another thing that thefirm is doing.
We do it right now.
We've got two paid searchesgoing on right now.
Is is helping our team Higherexperience development directors
, major gift officers, peoplewith hands-on experience and who
are you serving the most?
Heredes (13:18):
Roy Schools churches, are they?
What kind of nonprofits?
Roy Jones (13:21):
a little bit of everything.
We've got a search going onright now at Westminster Academy
and in Fort Myers, florida, drG James Kennedy's former school,
and and you know we're we're,you know, excited about serving,
serving schools.
But then we're, you know we'realso doing another one for the
CS Lewis Society.
Here We've, we've done somestaffing for some of the
(13:47):
Association of Gospel Rescuemissions, what it used to be
called.
It's now called City GateNetwork, but with with some of
our clients there and the in thehomeless shelter space.
You know you're you're lookingat a guy.
I have slept in 50 homelessshelters across America and and
it helped as a fundraisingchallenge or Just to save them
(14:09):
money, and I want to know abouttheir ministry that's
Heredes (14:10):
amazing and if I go, in to help them Call, and we may
need to do that, for like theseepisodes.
Collin (14:15):
Hey.
Heredes (14:15):
I spend the nights when we go the out of state and
that's where we'll do the.
Collin (14:18):
That's what we'll record.
There you go.
Roy Jones (14:19):
I like that.
I see you'll, you'll find outsomething about that ministry.
Heredes (14:23):
I believe, never one thing that stands out from what
you're doing is Now.
You've been there, done that,what you have for years now,
whether it's Liberty, wementioned, whether it's Mercy
ships and many others, you're init.
You're still doing it.
You're meeting with donorsface-to-face, you're doing the,
the.
Tell us why that's importantand well it's.
Roy Jones (14:43):
It's really different in our, in our Industry.
To begin with, first, first,all it's.
First of all it's.
It's unique in that Most peopledon't want to go through the
trouble of Registering as asolicitor in their state, and so
registering is fundraisingcouncil, that's no problem.
(15:04):
Registering as a solicitor,it's a challenge.
What, why?
Heredes (15:09):
Break down the difference.
Roy Jones (15:10):
Well, it's in some states Florida it's not so bad,
but but if I'm wherever,whatever state I'm doing actual
fund solicitation in, I have toregister as a solicitor.
You know some states like NewYork, I got a post of $50,000
bond, you know.
And so because of the of thestructure that political leaders
have created and again, it'sall done for the right reasons
(15:31):
it's about transparency.
If a donor wants to check out acharity, they need to be able
to, to go to the governmentwebsite, look at their contracts
, look at their 990, look at theFirms like fit fundraising that
they've engaged with, see whatthey're being paid.
They want to make sure that ifthey make a donation, that it's
going to the charity, not to thebig bald guy and so they
(15:53):
deserve that.
So I'm not opposed to that.
But because of that, a lot, of,a lot of agencies have gotten
out of the field.
You know, I mean I, I knowhundreds of Agencies and in most
of them have not met with thedonor in 20 years.
Hmm, and things change.
Oh yeah, donors engageDifferently.
(16:16):
I mean, I mean, every four orfive years the methodology
changes.
It goes back and forth.
You know, it's, it'sinteresting.
Four years ago, you know, Iwould tell people, you know,
don't use the phone.
Donors don't want to use thephone.
You know, you got to getface-to-face with people.
Today I'm doing more phone workthan I've ever done in 20 years
.
Heredes (16:34):
It's, it's the phone is calls or you talk text
messaging.
You got to do both andintegration is the key.
Roy Jones (16:40):
You know, you do have to use email, you do have to
use text, you do have toactually use voicemail and then
actually you use all three ofthose things to to actually have
an actual conversation socialnetworks.
Heredes (16:53):
Tell me about those for a little bit.
Roy Jones (16:54):
It.
It's a Social media, is stillPR, not DR.
You know it's still publicrelations.
You're still building brand,you're building culture, you're
building name ID.
It's still not.
There are some exceptions, butbut for the most part it's still
(17:19):
not the space that that thatyou raise the revenue in.
You know, I mean most of thesetools that we use.
You know I I call them driversand converters, and so there are
drivers that kind of pushpeople to where they can convert
, actually make a donation.
And again, I call a converteran actual donation, not eyeballs
(17:40):
on a page not somebody opensomething not impressions Great,
but but somebody actually givesyou money.
Heredes (17:46):
There's a transaction.
Roy Jones (17:47):
There's a transaction and and so there's, you got to
have the drivers To get peopleto convert.
You know, in the old days,direct mail, that was always a
converter.
People sent back that replyenvelope with a check in it.
Well, now direct mail hasbecome a driver.
Interesting and so the replydevices don't.
(18:07):
You know, probably 50 percentdepends on the nonprofit, but
I've talked to many.
They're seeing as high as 50percent of all their direct mail
donations Come online.
Heredes (18:20):
So so the website, the QR code, but.
But if they didn't.
Roy Jones (18:24):
If they didn't send the mailing out, they wouldn't
go online to get a driver.
Yeah and so and so.
Direct mail is quickly becominga driver, not a converter.
But if you shut down your directmail program, trust me you're
gonna be out of business feel it, yeah, you feel it, yeah, and I
know people that have justflipped the switch and, and it's
a worst thing you can do Wow,you have to integrate.
(18:46):
You got to do both or all, andand, whether it's you know, you
touched on them texting email,social media, old-fashioned
snail mail.
Heredes (18:56):
You got to do them all and right.
Tell me about this, obviously,here in first and through the
podcast.
We're, you know, in thebusiness of telling those
stories, of sharing the impact,of helping the nonprofits we
serve that are listening rightnow Gage, highlight what's
converted, highlight, you know,create the drivers for them.
What, what, in your opinion,are essential.
These are key, essentialdrivers that must happen and
(19:18):
some that you would say, hey,let's reconsider this or take a
look at this.
It's not what it's amped up tobe any advice there.
Roy Jones (19:25):
Yeah, I mean you have to be real careful, because if
you asked any donor Do you wantto get mail the answer is no, no
, yes, danny, don't know.
Do you want to get more email?
Heredes (19:38):
No.
Roy Jones (19:39):
Do you want to get more text messages from us?
No, true, okay, so so you know.
My recommendation is just tounderstand.
You do have to work with thefrequency you know most of the
nonprofits I see today are doing, believe it or not, almost one
(20:00):
email a day on average.
Really 150 to 200 emails a year.
And okay, now do the math.
If the average nonprofit Wow ifthe average nonprofit donor is
giving to 7.2 charities.
They're flooded do the math.
Heredes (20:18):
They're flooded.
Hmm, so is there fatigue there,because I mean other is yeah
but?
Roy Jones (20:22):
but there, the other side is, there are people that
read it all and there's resultsyeah, and Usually I've heard it
described, and I think it's morelike this it's like a river.
You know, you and you throw thethe line and hook out there.
You don't catch a fish everytime you throw it out there, but
all the sudden boom, here'sthis whole school that just
(20:44):
happens to be there at that timewhen you cast, and so you got
to keep Casting, yeah, and sothat's the problem.
If you're not in that space,somebody else is, and so you
know.
My recommendation, though, isreally looking at the using
segmentation, and again, everyorganization has a different
level as to what's considered amajor donor.
(21:06):
You know, when I was at Mercyships, it was like five figure
giving was a major donor.
You know, you look at WorldVision, six figure giving is a
major starting point.
You know I mean they have ahundred and fifty full-time
major gift offices around thecountry.
Heredes (21:22):
They're doing.
They're doing a bill plus.
Roy Jones (21:23):
Yes, they're doing a billion dollars a year plus, and
they are, they are meet, theymeet with a lot of people, you
know so.
So so they create a treatment.
We create a treatment for the,for the, the big donors.
It's usually less frequency,but it's more personalized
frequency, and what I mean bythat is it's not a lot of big
(21:46):
fancy graphics, it's not a lotof super amazing video Things.
They dumb it down simple and andthey keep it simple and it
really looks like the presidentsat down an outlook and sent
them an outlook message.
When they get the, thecorresponding letter that goes
(22:08):
with it.
Heredes (22:08):
It really looks like a note from the president.
Roy Jones (22:11):
He sent that you know laser jet off his desk and it
went out that way and the copieswritten.
It's not a lot of we and us andour and this big thing where
we're casting this thing tomillions.
No, it is me and you, hey, jim.
I want to say thank you, it is,it is very very, and so it's a
different Tone, say, might bethe same exact offer, the same
(22:34):
project, but the tone isdifferent.
And then you've got to createmiddle donor communications and
that's kind of a hybrid betweenthe mass marketing the one to
many and what I just described,the one to one.
Yeah, and and and the biggestdifference with your middles,
where one to many, you knowyou're tailoring your ass, not
(22:57):
only your offer but your askamount, how much you're asking
for and so and so.
Now, with with your, with yourmajors, you tend to, for the
most part, go to open, ask, andso people that look like it's
literally a blank.
Heredes (23:13):
Really, that's at the top tier, right, you're going
blank right and you're you.
Roy Jones (23:17):
Hey, you know, you know you, might you share the
goal?
You might share the goal, youmight share what they've given
in the past and it's, you knowit's written in such a way hey,
a year ago you helped us with agift for ten thousand dollars.
Thank you, I want you to prayabout helping us this year.
It is mission critical and soyou know you can you put that
(23:39):
custom in there, but it's, it'snot.
It's not listed as 10,000,5,000, 2,500 thousand.
It's right.
Collin (23:48):
It's an open, whereas you would want to do something
like that with that kind of thatmiddle level.
Roy Jones (23:52):
Yes, yes, and, and usually the different people
have different preferences.
You know, usually you with thatmiddle donor segment, you're
not going to use a gift arraythat's five figures plus.
You know, especially if you'rebuilding an offer around the
number of people fed or thenumber of people helped, it
(24:12):
could just you can kind of lookweird.
You know your gift of a hundredthousand helps us with fifty
thousand meals.
You know.
I mean, you know, and we'reonly gonna feed 2000 next week.
You know it's and so and so youhave to kind of be careful.
Offer development is key.
Yeah, it's good, you know yougot to think through these
offers when you do segmentationand just realize that the bigger
(24:34):
people you know they don't wantyou spending money on them and
their investors.
Heredes (24:40):
I need to have a question on that.
Served at a nonprofit a fewyears ago Running a raising
about 30 million Annually.
So fairly, you know, not in thebillions, but large but their
sophistication yes, um and wedeveloped a tier system, now
inspired by American ExpressMm-hmm, where you would enter
certain levels and it came.
(25:01):
It's interesting because Icould justify and say that it
was successful Because therewere conversions there were at
results.
At the same time, there was alot of drop-offs because no,
obviously was a faith base Sayno, I don't want to be
categorized or put into thislevel or this tier, or gold,
platinum, black, titanium, andit was a very obvious Type of
(25:23):
gift you got.
Type of type of treatment yougot, type of seat you got.
So it became what's that?
This is, let's say, decade plusago.
Okay, it made for creative,very easy, because this was
categorized right this was verysimple.
The messaging, the segmentationwas clear.
Where, where are we today?
I think in the consumer.
Obviously American Express doeswell with that in Creating in
(25:45):
the first from first class ofbusiness class to the access to
the lounge right or access tothe tickets.
Does it work?
Have you seen it?
What would be yourrecommendation?
Roy Jones (25:52):
It really depends on the nonprofit and in some cases
it will work and be great.
In other cases it won't.
Because I mean, what you haveto realize is, over time, you
are training donors to act acertain way and so if they've
been used to responding in thattiered concept, it could work
(26:13):
very well, you know.
But if, if they really haven'tbeen trained that way, you know
that this is our culture andthis is how we identify offers,
this is how we fund projects,it'll bomb so it.
I wish I had a straight answerfor you.
There's really not.
It depends on on the culture inthe history.
In some cases that's likeexactly the right move, in other
(26:35):
cases It'll be disaster.
Heredes (26:37):
That's a great point on the conditioning to of what
you're trying, who you're tryingon board, because, yeah, it's a
culture of the leadership, theculture of the company or the
organization that makes sense.
Roy Jones (26:46):
You know, the the hardest thing for most
nonprofits to realize Is thatyou, the way you grow revenue is
by feeding this fight withmanpower.
And they, they refuse to spendthe money to staff up.
And and you know that theaverage major gift officer in
(27:12):
America, and and again I've,I've, I've interviewed thousands
, I've hired several hundredOver the last couple decades.
I've fired 20 or 30.
They were, you know, I wouldn'thave hired him if they weren't
great talkers, but I had to firethem because what I do is
(27:33):
measure activity results, right,you know?
And again, when I say results,I'm not talking about how much
money did they raise.
I Don't.
I don't count the money, Icount the activity put in the
work.
You know how many actualconversations did you have by
phone and email and text, whatmeaningful communications you
have, how many face-to-facemeetings did you have?
(27:56):
How many projects did youdiscuss?
If you're measuring those kindof metrics, gonna raise a lot of
money.
Heredes (28:06):
Is it a numbers game?
Right at that point.
Roy Jones (28:07):
It is.
Heredes (28:08):
It is if I, if I put a hundred, I'm gonna yield 10 and
it's gonna.
Roy Jones (28:13):
Well and again, but with with these, let me, let me
tell you a story, and and Iwon't give her full name, I
won't tell the organization shewas with- Samantha Jones from.
This.
This lady's name was Amy andshe's on the West Coast, that's
all I'll tell you.
But she came to me and she saidI've got a portfolio of about
(28:34):
about 120 names.
These people will never, neverBe able to give more than a half
a million dollars.
I know them, I've talked tothem, I've met with them, I know
what they're giving history asthey will never do it.
So they trust me, you know, ifyou will do eight to ten
(28:56):
meetings a month, if you willbegin to risk, instead of going
out and pitching, to go out andhave conversations about what
they want to do.
It's a totally differentengagement strategy.
I'm not gonna.
I'm not.
I am not measuring how muchmoney you raised.
I'm measuring how many of thosekinds of conversations did you
(29:21):
have?
And Within a year, she, she didlike 1.2 million within three
years from those same people.
Wow, she generated about fivemillion dollars.
Wow, hmm.
Outro (29:34):
Why.
Roy Jones (29:35):
Because she ministered put in the reps, she
put in the reps, you put in thefront of them eight a month.
Collin (29:40):
Yes, eight a month, and just that.
Yeah, I'm two visits a week,right?
Heredes (29:44):
So super curious now.
So we're gonna expand for thoselocal and say, well, I have my
little zip code or I have myregion and I have my state and
obviously you're flying all overthe country, the world, talk to
us about, because in some waysit becomes very sales repi, but
it's, we're not sales.
There's a development ofrelationships.
Break that down like virtuallyin 2020.
(30:05):
That changed right, thateverybody had to figure that out
, yes, but climate, I mean Imean these.
Roy Jones (30:12):
even during COVID, these big investors, they still
wanted to meet.
Now they may not have been ableto take a meeting, or they did
one on one end of a table tablethree masses six feet Right.
Collin (30:30):
Remember, they're investors.
Heredes (30:31):
They don't just give money away to strangers and some
way more scrutinized, evenduring that pandemic Right, they
wanted to know, they wanted toknow more.
Roy Jones (30:38):
Yeah and, as you know , people gave more during the
pandemic and they didn't do thatAccidentally.
They were intentionally seekingout conversations.
Good, they didn't.
This didn't happen because wesent some magic email to them or
some unique direct mail piece.
This happened because they metwith major gift specialists
(30:58):
one-on-one.
That's how it happened.
And and again that one-on-one.
Don't get me wrong.
I do think during the, the peaktime of the pandemic, there
were a lot of zoom meetings, butI have found people are sick of
them right now and and and they, you know they'll do a zoom
meeting just to schedule a realmeeting.
Heredes (31:19):
Now, which is so the 8 to 10 like we're gonna use Amy
from the West Coast will remainunnamed, but you can find a link
to her profile linked in here.
Does it have to be?
Does a virtual meeting or aphone call to you equate the
result of a?
Roy Jones (31:31):
it can, it can't it absolutely can.
Outro (31:34):
Okay.
Roy Jones (31:34):
I call them meaningful contacts.
Okay, you know, it can be amove Again if it's
conversational.
If you're just pitching, stoppitching.
We don't raise money bypitching.
It doesn't work that way.
It is about talking aboutprojects, talking about what the
donors thinking about.
It's about setting theexpectation when people and
(31:57):
again I talk about how we traindonors with our methodology
Donors know, if they fall intoone of the programs that I've
helped develop that ourexpectation is.
You know, mrs Smith, you know,I promise you and I'll say this
on the phone, I'll say this inperson Usually, the first time I
sit down with somebody, what Ilike to do, and I wish I could
(32:20):
say it was just me, but ourboard wants me to meet with our
top supporters, and you're oneof them.
Thank you last year.
Last year, you gave Whateverthe number was, you know $20,000
(32:42):
, $30 over the last 10 years.
You know how many donationsyou've made.
No, we made 287 gifts and, as amatter of fact, you've given a
hundred and forty thousanddollars.
Thank you.
Yeah, our board has asked me tomeet with you once a year.
They want me to give you animpact report on how we spent
(33:03):
your money last year.
And then they do want me tofind out what you want to do
this year.
They've asked me intentionallynot to come in here and just
pitch stuff, and so I promiseyou when I call you, I'm not
calling to pitch, I'm calling sothat, so that we can have our
annual planning meeting and youtell me when your passion is and
what you want to do this year,because I find those passions do
(33:25):
shift a little bit, mrs Smith,and and now I have other people
that have been supporting thesame thing for a decade.
But but we want this, I wantyou to know.
This is about you.
I wish we could do this withevery donor.
We can't.
As you know, we have 23,000donors to the organization.
I can only meet with about ahundred people.
You are one of the hundred toppeople to this organization.
(33:49):
That's why I'm calling you.
Collin (33:52):
That's a masterclass right there.
What?
Heredes (33:54):
Yeah, if you didn't, we're gonna script this and
print this.
That's fantastic and they loveit.
Roy Jones (33:59):
I love it, they love it.
You know I, while I'm there,I'm probing.
Okay, you talked about being agood listener.
The worst fundraisers are thebest talkers, the people that
are pitching, the people thatyou know, blah, blah, blah, blah
, blah.
They're the worst fundraisers.
(34:19):
You got to shut up.
I mean, if more than 25% of theconversation is you talking,
you're not gonna raise any money.
It is about the donor tellingyou what projects they're
interested in them understanding, while you're here Again
pulling out that high-techyellow tablet.
Heredes (34:42):
The lane page yellow tablet.
Roy Jones (34:44):
And would you care if I wrote that down?
It's amazing, and you know Ilean in.
They lean in.
I mean they're amazed thatsomebody's actually listening to
them Right.
Then I go to the door and foryou for you older folks out
there, I call this the Colomboclothes, but some of the younger
people call it the door hingeAll right, so you want some
(35:05):
techniques bring it.
So.
So, as you leave, you'vewritten down.
They told you what their onething is.
Everybody's got that one thing.
They've told you what it is,what they want to do.
As you leave, you know you kindof.
Do you remember Colombo, theprogram?
Outro (35:20):
I know it's, it's you'll have to go back, and you do it.
Collin (35:23):
Yes.
Roy Jones (35:24):
You'll have to YouTube it tonight.
But he was this frumpy olddetective and Everybody thought
he was clueless, didn't knowwhat was going on.
You know, he wore old wrinkledovercoat and and it's a British
show and no, it's.
American show and so so.
So YouTube it tonight.
You'll get a kick out of it,because in every episode you
(35:45):
know he's, he's, he'sinterrogating the, the, the
criminal.
The criminal thinks he got awaywith it.
He goes to the door, he turnsthe door knob, he goes to step
out and then he looks back.
You know what?
I forgot something?
One more thing, one more thing.
And then he asked that onequestion that just crushes that
(36:05):
criminal.
He knows they're going to jail.
Got him, it got him, and so.
So some of my younger audiencecall that the door hinge.
Outro (36:12):
So when.
Roy Jones (36:13):
I get to the door hinge Before I walk out, I tap
my head and say, oh now, mrsSmith, you said you had a
passion for for helping children.
I'd like to go back to ourchildren's program director and
find out what our biggest needsare in that area and Come back
to you with with a couple ofthose to look at.
(36:34):
How does that sound to you?
Heredes (36:37):
Guess what boom.
Of course, custom custom she'sto them.
Roy Jones (36:41):
Most of the time they say you do that for me, I love
it.
You do that for me, yeah, youbet I can't do it for everybody.
I can only meet with about ahundred people a year.
Yes, mrs Smith, I can do it foryou.
Heredes (36:54):
Wow, I love how sincere house, strategic, how
successful that that is andengaging and truly it's what
donors want.
Roy Jones (37:01):
Yes, they're waiting for people to treat them like
people.
They're waiting for somebody tolisten to them, not just send
them.
You know, 200 emails a year,yeah, here's what we need.
Or gifts that are gonna gettossed, or you know that they
they want a one-on-onerelationship and you know they
(37:21):
want to do business with people.
They know right.
Heredes (37:23):
Tell me about this.
That's an.
You know you're developing anengaged donor.
Tell me about activation.
What kind of conversation areyou having with someone?
You've identified the address,the zip code, the, and they've
given zero and, as far as youknow, they're not engaged spend
much time with those kind ofpeople really tell me, so why
not?
Roy Jones (37:41):
who should?
That's the heaviest left in thebusiness.
Anything you read, it's gonnatake you six to 18 months to get
a donation from that person.
Hmm, I don't have that kind oftime.
Heredes (37:52):
So who should?
Should we?
Should we get into that?
Roy Jones (37:55):
That's the purpose of direct response.
The first gift get 25 bucksfrom them.
So then they'll do a hundred,then they'll do 250, then they
do 500.
They start to show up on myradar screen then Okay, so let
them exercise the muscle indifferent engagements.
Yes, they're gonna engage withyou.
You know again, that's how theydo it.
It's.
I don't think they sit downwith a plan that okay, this year
(38:17):
I'm gonna check out ten newcharities.
But they do it's instinctive,it's a visceral yes they do.
They make a certain number oftheir gifts are gonna be smaller
gifts.
They're gonna put it in and seewhat happens and and and.
That's how you acquire bigdonors.
Don't again, if, if, if and I'mnot saying don't ever, because
(38:40):
I've I've done a bunch of itmyself.
But if you're gonna cold callpeople with capacity, you know
who could make a by figure,six-figure gift, don't spend
more than 20% of your time doingthat, because that's been
advice, because you will belooking for a job within six
months.
Wow, and, and that's.
(39:01):
And that's where most of ourindustry is today and there's a
reason for that.
You know they get pressure putunder desperation, desperation.
They're, they're seniormanagement, the board.
They don't know how fundraisingreally happens.
You know they think, oh no,major donors come in and they
write a $10,000 gift out of theshoot.
No, you're wrong.
(39:22):
Yeah, it doesn't happen thatway.
Collin (39:24):
So what's so?
What's the process then?
Once you've identified becauseyou know you leave, you leave
the zero Givers alone, you don'tworry about them.
You, you want to build, build areputation of an extra giver
once you identify, then thenwhat is that process to getting
to when our, our, our friend is,where you went and visited and
you said you know, this is allyou've given.
How do you go from?
You know?
What's the intermediate there,what's the process?
Roy Jones (39:46):
What takes.
It usually takes the firstthing, that and this is the
hardest part for Developmentdirectors, ceos, board chair
people and major gift officersto understand.
But it usually takes about sixmonths For these donors to first
(40:07):
of all believe that oh, he's orshe's gonna actually stay there
.
Because, guess what?
You're probably the the 10thperson in 10 years To call them
from that charity, and they knowit is a.
Heredes (40:22):
Revolving door, revolving door.
Roy Jones (40:23):
But if they say oh, this guy's persistent, this
guy's persistent.
And again, you know, I you doyou keep, you do have to keep
your sanity and you do have tobe professional.
You know, I'm not saying youpound people, you know, seven
times a week for three weeks toget in front of them.
No, there's a rhythm to it.
(40:44):
You know you're probably doingInitially an email the first
week, With a voicemail as well.
The second week you're probablygonna send a follow-up email.
The third week you're gonnaleave a voicemail.
(41:04):
If they don't respond, you moveon.
But again, I'm probably gonnagive it two or three weeks and
we'll cycle through again andI'm gonna give it about three
cycles.
It's gonna be, you know, 90 to180 days of that For them to
know you're there.
There's only one way to get ridof me and that's talk to me.
(41:27):
And this is my job and again, Isometimes the truth works.
I do not use voicemail, I donot use email, I do not use
handwritten notes, as you know.
Paid Public serviceannouncements.
Hello, this is Roy Jonescalling.
I just wanted to thank you forsupporting the ministry.
If you could give me a callback, I won't take much of your
(41:49):
time, but but I really wouldlike to talk to you and Again,
thank you so much for all you dofor us.
You are not gonna get a callback with that voicemail.
I'm not at all and you know myvoicemail.
You know usually, and again, ifyou time it right and you set
up a process internally whereanybody that's in your portfolio
, in your assignments, if theymake a gift for any amount, you
(42:13):
are to be notified immediately,it's got to be a flag, a trigger
on that database system to tellyou because that's the best
time to get a call returned,because Because that voicemail
is hey, this is Roy.
Have a quick question regardingthe donation you just made.
Won't keep you on the phonemore than a minute, oh, that's
give me a call back.
Guess what they call you backyeah immediately.
Heredes (42:34):
They're thinking.
They're thinking ten thingsright.
Collin (42:36):
Yeah, yeah, they're like what, what happened?
Roy Jones (42:38):
And I've actually said and I've used that same,
that same process with the samedonor Dozens of times and they
always call you back.
That's great, and they usuallyknow I'm calling to set up a
visit.
Um, they know, after talking tome or time or two, that I
rarely use the phone to ask formoney.
(42:59):
Now I will do it and I havedone it, and sometimes I don't
intend to do it, but the donorsays we don't need to meet.
Let me, you know, I've met withthem before.
I mean, they know me On a firstname basis.
They know my wife, they, theyknow about my kids, my grandkids
.
You know they're, they're myfriend.
Yeah, so, roy, listen, we don'tneed to meet.
(43:19):
Talk to me about that projectyou want to talk about.
You know, and and Usually it'sit's the project that they are
to support.
They probably know more about itthan I know.
Um and so, and so it's at thatpoint.
Heredes (43:34):
What's your action?
Step there, how do you, how doyou not let that slip?
Is it a what's the cta?
Roy Jones (43:39):
It's.
It's in some cases I'll I'lljust jump right at it.
So well, here's what's going on.
Um.
You know I talked to theprogram director today, wanted
to get your thoughts.
We thought this might besomething you'd be interested in
helping us with, um.
You know, last year you helpedus with with 10,000 Um.
We'd like you to consider agift of 15 this year.
Here are quite a god.
Outro (44:03):
The next one that speaks loses.
Roy Jones (44:09):
That's how it works, and it's the same way in person.
When I leave a voicemail withpeople, I never tell them why
I'm calling.
I make the voicemail abouttheir time and they know if
they're on the phone with meonce they talk to me at a time
or two.
I am not the guy that keepsthem on the phone for 20 minutes
.
If they call me back andthey're on the phone more than a
(44:32):
minute, um it's too long, umthat, and that's why I get
callbacks, because I've trainedthem.
They know if they call me back,it's going to be quick.
I'm not going to use the phoneto to chew up their day.
Um, that phone is a specifictool, primarily so I can get in
front of them.
Heredes (44:49):
Yeah, and right into how valuable, right in an
artificial intelligent world welive in today I'm doing air
quotes here how valuable thatreal touch phone call, humanized
, one minute or less, doesn'thave to be an hour.
Catch up.
Roy Jones (45:01):
And it's.
You know it's, it's integrated,correct?
Um, if you're just doing phonecalls, you're not going to get a
call back.
You got to do a phone call, yougot to do an email, you got to
do text and then now, of course,the latest thing is not just a
text.
You got to leave a recordedmessage on the text.
Outro (45:20):
Or a video or a video.
Or a video or a video, yeah.
Roy Jones (45:25):
And so.
But it's integration, I meaneven I mean I hate to say this
because I so want to, you know.
I mean I'm 65 years old, mysons are 40 and 38 and 31.
And I so want to talk to them,but usually I get to text them
and sometimes we'll actuallyleave each other voicemails, you
know, and but we're going backand forth and that's kind of how
(45:47):
people communicate these days.
Heredes (45:48):
I blinked the boomers man.
They did that to us and youknow it's a different world.
But you got to use them, allyou got to use them all you
can't ignore Including what yousaid, the printed pieces, the
directs.
Roy Jones (45:58):
To ignore that, you are leaving the touch points on
the table right, and there aresome people, especially if
they're considering, you know,making a substantial gift they
like that piece of paper.
There's just something abouttangible touching it.
There's something tactical aboutit.
Tactical about it that theythey pray over it literally.
(46:20):
Yeah, I've gone into people'shomes and they have three or
four stacks of certain letters,different things they're
thinking about, praying about,and you know it's.
I talked about feeding thisfight with manpower.
You know some military toolshere, but there was a Civil War
general that said he who getsthere the firstest with the
(46:43):
mostest wins, and you know theperson that spent the right
amount of time on that piece ofpaper, that really tailored that
message and made it one to oneand really told the story.
They're the one that get themoney.
Heredes (46:58):
Yep and they quit.
You know I've got five kids,roy, and we've got a bazillion
digital photos and things goingon on our phones of them.
But what makes it to the fridgethat drawing?
Or that picture that's going toget the daily attention
conversation multiple.
So there's something to that.
Yeah, it doesn't devalue thedigital, but there's something
about it.
Collin (47:18):
You saw my drawing up there.
I had to take it down.
Roy Jones (47:20):
It was, you know, we prayed enough for the request.
That does make me think ofanother thing that I think
really works well in thesemeetings.
They know, after meeting withme a time or two, that I never
come empty handed and usuallyI'm bringing them a gift that
(47:40):
was made by somebody.
In our program, when I was atMercy Ships, I used to bring
wealthy people over to the shipWe'd fly to Africa together.
They'd pay for their own tripand I ran into a guy there that
had received a surgery and hewas a woodcarver and he carved a
little giraffe and gave it tome and I said you love doing
(48:05):
that, I love it.
He said how many of those couldyou do a month?
I said I could do 50 a month.
I said what would you sell themto me for?
He goes a dollar, of course.
$50 a month is probably twicetheir.
Heredes (48:22):
Their wage, their wage.
Roy Jones (48:26):
I said you have a contract, you've been
commissioned, and so for a year,the first thing I would do is
give every donor I met withsomething made by one of our
clients.
Talking about marketing that'sright there on their counter
every time they look at it, andI mean if their house catches on
fire that's coming out withthem.
(48:48):
It means something to them.
And again, you talk aboutchildren's drawings so many
times, whether it's a homeless,shelter, a ministry to families,
people in need.
Just creating color pages thatsay that have the words thank
you at the bottom and have thekids color those and give it
(49:09):
back.
And guess what I do?
I frame it and mat it with theorganization logo at the top.
Go to Hobby Lobby.
You can buy a frame and mat for$1.50.
And that whole thing costs$1.50.
And I'm telling you I've goneinto people's homes and you've
got to kind of keep trackbecause you can't give them the
same drawing more than once.
So you do have to.
Heredes (49:29):
You said this was from Suzy last year.
Right, You've got to make sureit's a different drawing.
Roy Jones (49:36):
But that kind of thing.
It just makes an.
When you can tie the gift tothe program in some way, it just
means something to the donor.
And again, these donors, theyall say they don't want to be
thanked and they don't want tobe treated special and they
(49:56):
don't want anybody to doanything special for them.
They lie, they do, theyabsolutely do.
Outro (50:03):
How many years of experience?
30, 40?
.
Roy Jones (50:05):
Over 40 now.
Heredes (50:07):
So that plays true, because I've heard that too, roy
, I don't want to be anonymous,I don't want people to know, I
don't want to.
Roy Jones (50:14):
You can respect anonymity, but still thank them.
Heredes (50:16):
That's good.
Roy Jones (50:18):
And so you do have to be careful about that.
The really wealthy people don'twant to be recognized, because
then you got 10 bald guysshowing up on their doorstep.
But they appreciate beingthanked, and especially if it's
from someone connected to yourprogram.
Don't go buy something slick.
Don't go spend a lot of moneyon something.
Heredes (50:40):
So you don't need the Rolex to nurture the gift.
Roy Jones (50:43):
You don't even need the slick four color brochure
and all that.
I mean you don't need all thatstuff.
It's the hands, crafts of somekind.
Collin (50:53):
The more personal.
Roy Jones (50:54):
The more personal, the better.
Heredes (50:56):
Especially at that level.
Now the investment is what yousaid earlier, Roy.
The investment to raise is inthe development, in the staffing
, and it takes that, which is itbrings me to.
How do they find you?
How can they connect with you,those who are listening?
They need some more coachingwith their current team.
Maybe they've got some entrylevel folks who are just getting
started or looking to be CDOsone day in their company.
Roy Jones (51:19):
And again, remember, I mean how we begin most of our
relationships is it starts outin kind of increments of two
hour free conversations.
We're not charging you.
The meter's not running.
When I go in to help anonprofit, I want to find out
what's broke and I want to fixthat.
I don't want to go breaksomething.
I don't want to jump intosomething you're already doing
(51:39):
well.
No, I want to find the areathat you need the most help and
run in and help you fix that.
But it's really easy.
You can go to RoyJonesorg orfitfundersingcom.
They take you to the same place.
Heredes (51:54):
Or the bald guy.
We'll get that for you.
You guys can get that monikerfor me.
Roy Jones (52:00):
So but yeah, and we'd be happy to talk to you anytime
, and it is, it's what I do.
And really it's teaching,modeling.
And when I say modeling I don'tmean in a conference room
somewhere.
We do some of that, but thereal application happens out in
(52:21):
the field.
When I can go out with peoplein the field and they see me do
this, guess what?
They say I can do that, I cando that.
And so often they think it'ssome magic words that you say or
some slick presentation or somesuper secret thing.
It's a magic trick.
Heredes (52:39):
It's not at all.
It's not at all.
Roy Jones (52:41):
It's about loving people.
It's about ministering topeople.
It's about caring for them,finding out what their passion
is and then helping them do it.
Heredes (52:49):
That's great I love that Before we wrap up, colin.
Thank you so much, roy.
Just for fun fact, do you payfor the meal or do they let them
pay for the?
Roy Jones (52:56):
meal I try to.
I always try to.
They rarely will let me, and soit's an honor to them to do it.
And so there's been occasionwhere you'll insist, we're all
insist, but it's usually afterI've warmed out for two months
(53:17):
to get the meeting.
But in most cases they pay forthe meal.
Heredes (53:21):
This is my last one, Colin.
Roy Jones (53:22):
I promise officially Okay.
Back to where we started.
Heredes (53:25):
I'm going to close this Back to where we started.
You've got their email andtheir phone number and we talked
about the value of that addressand you've explained it so
incredibly well.
How do I get that?
What's the best way?
How have you seen the best way?
Roy Jones (53:38):
to get that Free offer Free, free, free Bingo.
Heredes (53:40):
So it's a value offer.
Roy Jones (53:41):
Nothing's more important than free.
Heredes (53:42):
Free book.
I'm going to send you a free.
Roy Jones (53:45):
And again you know, yeah, you could email it to them
, but you don't get it unless Iget your address.
That's the way it works, and soit's you know.
And again you're going to needto change those offers out
because not everybody respondedto that one, so you're going to
have to keep fishing withdifferent bait to get that name
(54:08):
and address.
But it's important.
Heredes (54:11):
Is there a ratio of a standard value offer price point
?
There you've seen successful onthe offer and again and yeah,
it's hard to say.
Roy Jones (54:19):
I mean, you know a lot of organizations, especially
those with larger directresponse programs, whether it's
DRTV or direct response radio,you know will will create a
robust monthly giving program.
(54:40):
Those tend to be under 20 bucks, so I've seen them ratcheting
up closer to 30 bucks recently.
But you know.
But it's the.
You know the problem peoplewrestle with to acquire a new
donor in a channel other thanthan digital.
(55:02):
You're going to spend between150 and $250 to acquire a new
donor.
So what that means is, if theaverage gift is $100, you know
it's going to take two gifts tobreak even to start to really
get started.
But you get that second gift andthe long term donor value on
that name is is unbelievable andso it pays for itself.
(55:25):
But, but, but, but you know youkind of see that and that's
really what you're wrestlingwith.
I mean the downside, and I've,I think, you got to acquire
donors.
If you're not doing paid search, you're making a mistake.
You're going to be able toacquire donors at a fraction of
the cost, and when I sayfraction, you know 30 to 60
(55:48):
bucks a name versus 150 to $250a name.
You know.
the downside is you don't tendto get as many people who will
wealth profile as a, as a cashmillionaire in the digital
domain, and so that's why youstill want to do direct response
(56:08):
acquisition, because you getolder donors and older donors
have more disposable income.
So you still got to have a mix,it's got to be a blend and
that's.
You know, if I could, when Ilook across the the nonprofit
sector right now, I mean thebiggest mistake that people make
is putting all their eggs inone basket.
They find one thing that worksand they boom, jump there
(56:31):
without thinking about the longterm consequences of that,
because when you do that you canpunch holes in your file and,
yeah, it's good for a while, butlong term it can really hurt
you.
So, again, I think you got todo both, you know, and these new
channels that continue to comeonline to us.
We got to use them all.
You got to use them all.
Heredes (56:51):
I love it.
And again, one of our, one ofour partners I won't name it
this time, but same doesincredibly well with the 50 plus
demographic.
You're talking checks in themail and millions and millions
shifted there, still doing that,but going to a TikTok approach
and Instagram and digitalthinking long term thinking well
, that's going to be the 50 yearold and they want the brand
(57:13):
awareness and that's helpingthem understand that they've
been around, they're trusted,there's tenure, there's here's
what they've been doing.
So, when that so veryinteresting shift, because then
you're talking, the segmentationthere is obviously pulled.
Collin (57:24):
I just make sure to group of 50 year olds doing
dance.
Heredes (57:27):
And that's how we're going about.
Roy Jones (57:28):
That's right, I'll be , that'll be me, we're going to
go for costumes.
Heredes (57:31):
There you go.
Collin (57:32):
Yes, thanks for doing that, roy, this has been, this
has been great.
What an incredible.
Well, I'll just say you'rewelcome to our listeners,
because we gave you somethingfor free today that you probably
should have paid for it.
But thank you so much.
Hey, fitfundraisingcom, ifyou're a nonprofit leader, if
you, if you need to, if you needmoney which is 100% of people
(57:53):
everywhere, fitfundraisingcomRain Making Book make sure to
pick that up as well.
Roy Jones (57:57):
We'll put the link here for the Amazon link yeah.
All the links, everything isgoing to be down there.
If you have trouble sleeping atnight, that Rain Baking Book
can help you.
Heredes (58:04):
So so I love it.
Collin (58:05):
Is it because it'll give more cash in your pocket
and that's going to make youvarious?
Heredes (58:08):
And, by the way, you know, Roy's in the Florida area,
Tampa Bay region.
I'm sure if you want to pay forhis lunch or shadow him at a
lunch to listen in.
I'm sure he'll have coffee andpick his brain, and I'm sure
there's a lot of leaders outthere in the Florida region that
he'll fly to you as well whenhe's out and about.
Collin (58:23):
So thank you, roy Roy, thank you for helping us,
helping us help leaders to gofurther and grow faster, and
thank you guys for listening.
We will see you on the nextepisode of the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Outro (58:35):
Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites aRenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe, and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email at
podcastatverscreativecom.
Well welcome to the nonprofit Renaissance.
Collin (00:10):
You're doing the intro now, is that?
Outro (00:11):
what's happening.
Heredes (00:13):
We've been talking, we've been hanging and you're
listening to none other thanlisten.
Development officer, theoriginal, the OG for Liberty
University here.
Is that correct?
Yeah, we're talking mercy shipinvolvement and we're going to
dive into now.
You did not.
You were not captain of theboat, right?
Roy Jones (00:29):
I was not.
Okay, that's not what thatplace would be lost if I was
captain of one of the ships.
Heredes (00:34):
But and much, much more .
The list goes on and we'regoing to talk a lot today about
fit fundraising, about his bookRain Making, but please welcome
to the podcast con, the one, theonly.
Collin (00:43):
Roy Jones.
Heredes (00:45):
Roy Jones.
Applause yes.
Collin (00:46):
How's it going?
It's so good to have you.
Let me run through real quick30 years, 30 plus years, and I'm
not a heavyweight boxingchampion.
Roy Jones (00:53):
But for the record Roy Jones Jr did give me
RoyJonesorg.
Oh wow, very cool.
It didn't make me fight for it.
Collin (01:02):
I was going to say you offered.
He was like no, I don't want to.
Roy Jones (01:05):
Once he saw what we were doing and helping
nonprofits, he actually gave ustheorg.
Heredes (01:10):
What a great pay per view fundraising.
Hey, we're doing a live fightbetween Roy Jones and Roy Jones.
Roy Jones (01:14):
I can't outweigh the guy, but I'm an old center from
Liberty University.
Russell played heavyweightnever boxed.
Collin (01:21):
Oh wow, you get a well MMA then we'll do MMA.
Outro (01:24):
Take him to the ground.
Collin (01:25):
Well, it's a 30 plus years of relationship building,
coalition development, marketing, fundraising experience.
You've got a book out, an awardwinning book, called Rain
Making the Fundraisers Guide toLanding Big Gifts.
Talked about servicedevelopment, vice president at
Mercy Ships.
You've got degrees andcertifications for days served
on multiple big boards of bigorganizations.
So I'm really excited to diveinto this conversation with you
(01:48):
to talk about fundraising andhelp our nonprofit listeners get
the big gifts, get the bigdonors, because that's how
they're going to do theirmission.
Heredes (01:58):
Yeah, you told us about RoyJonesorg already.
So well, that can redirect.
But tell us about FitFundraising.
Roy Jones (02:05):
Well, we decided to create a brand around what we do
and that's really what we do.
It started out my wife and Iset up a foundation to do
training for nonprofit leadersand it was originally called
Fundraising Institute Trainingand that's where the Fit acronym
came from and so that kind ofstuck and then it went to Fit
(02:26):
Fundraising and it really isjust helping people understand
how to minister to donors,because that's really what we do
.
There are certain people innonprofit organizations to get,
to get to minister and care forpeople, for puppies, for kittens
, for all kinds of neat things.
But I feel called to ministerto people who provide the
(02:49):
resources to make that stuffhappen.
Collin (02:52):
And so you've got a pretty impressive career behind
you, and I think you said youlaunched this fairly recently.
Roy Jones (03:00):
Yeah, really, just about seven months ago, we
rebranded, staffed up, and we'vegot about eight clients right
now.
One of the unique things thatwe do, though and it's part of
our marketing strategy is weprovide free fundraising counsel
(03:21):
, and so we've actually helped41 different nonprofits this
year.
Eight of them started paying us, and so All right, so let's
start there.
Heredes (03:28):
So let's break that down, so you're offering free
advice, free counsel, free.
Collin (03:34):
What does that look like?
What do you know?
Roy Jones (03:36):
Yeah, it usually begins by a lot of people think
I can just hire the big bald guyand he's got a secret magic
black book of donors.
Heredes (03:44):
Was that dot com available?
Big bald guy Dot com.
Roy Jones (03:49):
And he's got this secret magic black book and he
can just open them up.
And people know him and he'syou know, he raised 200 million
at Mercy Ships.
He, you know he raised 400million over five years at Libby
University.
He's raised a lot of moneyother places.
A lot of people know him, sothey'll just give to me too.
Doesn't work that way, yeah,and the first thing I do is
start with their donor file.
(04:11):
If it's 100 donors, 1,000donors, 10,000 donors or 50,000
donors, it starts with theirfile.
And what I help them to do tobegin with is do a real analysis
on our donors climbing theladder.
Are they upgrading?
Because what most people failto realize, these major donors,
(04:35):
they don't come from my list,they come from their list and
they don't give money away, theymake investments.
Heredes (04:42):
That's good.
Roy Jones (04:43):
So a big donor, somebody with great capacity,
their first gift I mean, Ichallenge people who's your
biggest individual donor?
They'll give me a name.
So what do you think theirfirst gift was?
Oh, 10,000, 50,000.
Let's look at the file.
Yep, it's usually under ahundred bucks, boom.
Heredes (05:00):
Testing the waters.
Roy Jones (05:01):
And that's what they do.
They do their giving just likethey do their investments.
They put a little bit in.
They see a return on thatinvestment.
They see impact.
Guess what they do?
They add a zero.
That usually takes a majordonor three to five gifts before
they're at their capacity level.
And it's getting people tounderstand that that the
solution of the problem they'rehaving with fundraising is right
(05:22):
in front of them.
Every day.
I mean, I'm with ministries,I'm with nonprofits.
Every day I hear them say I'vebeen in the room with them when
they prayed God, give us amillion dollars.
We need this.
This will help us.
God doesn't send money, hesends people.
He's with money.
Yeah, and it's our job.
(05:44):
The worst mistake we make infundraising is asking
millionaires for 25 bucks.
And we do it every day.
And we do it every day and weprayed and we said please,
please, you know we, we, youknow.
And guess what?
He provided the solution.
And because they were on yourchicken list or because you
didn't take the time to get toknow them, to see what their
(06:06):
passion was, to see where theirheart was, to see what they had
been prepared to do, why theydidn't matter whether they were
introduced to you through paidsearch Doesn't matter whether
they were introduced to youthrough through direct mail,
doesn't matter whether they wereintroduced to you through an
event or some community activity.
They were brought your way fora purpose, and that's our job is
(06:26):
showing people.
Listen you, you've got toqualify people and that's people
, and I mean, of course I'm kindof focused on and sorry to
sound like a preacher- but, I'mreally focused on the parable of
the talents, that's right.
You know I, you know, I mean youknow somebody.
God sends me somebody thatwants to give a thousand dollars
(06:48):
.
I'm not going to ask them for25.
And guess what?
I do the right thing in athousand.
They're going to add a zero andit becomes 10.
They do the right thing with 10.
Guess what?
They're going to add a zero andit becomes a hundred.
Outro (07:00):
That's how it happens.
Roy Jones (07:01):
That's how it happens and so often, you know, we
donors go away.
Big donors come to a nonprofitand they give a time or two.
We treat them like just aregular donor.
We send them all this, you know, e blasts and direct mail and
and I do all that stuff, youknow.
But it's our job to find outwho they are.
(07:23):
And creates you segmentation,create unique messaging so that
the bigger capacity donors getbigger projects to look at and
the regular donors get thesmaller projects to look at.
Heredes (07:37):
Let's stop, let's pause for a second there.
Break that down for a listener.
They're a nonprofit leader,c-suite.
They've been at it for a while.
How are you doing that today?
Break segmentating.
How are you creating differentmess?
How are you identifying numberone?
Let's say it's just an emailand a phone number on your list.
What are some tips?
Some hacks?
This is the free stuff, guys.
Then you got to call Roy forthe rest but you got to stop
that.
Roy Jones (07:57):
Okay, Create free offers, but you'll.
Free is a relative term.
You only get free if you giveme your name and address there
we go.
So I can't do wealth researchwith an email.
I can't do wealth research witha phone number to be honest
with you.
Heredes (08:11):
Okay, what does it take ?
Bring it on.
Roy Jones (08:12):
I need a physical address.
Okay, if I have a physicaladdress it's kind of scary,
bring it on, but I could.
I basically know all the assetsregistered at that address.
Every household in America hasbeen indexed.
They pretty much know that thedisposable income of every
household in America, it'savailable, any asset you know.
(08:34):
You say any asset, pretty muchany asset cars.
Believe it or not.
People forget the securityexchange commission is a
government entity and guess whatthe SEC does?
They rent that money out.
You apply for a small businessloan or you apply for a second
mortgage.
If you don't check the boxspecifically prohibiting them
(08:57):
from using that data before yourloan is approved or denied, the
wealth profiling companies haveit.
Heredes (09:04):
There it is.
This is worth the podcast.
Roy Jones (09:06):
ladies and gentlemen, we're just going to put this
clip on repeat and that's worththat's gold.
But you've got to get aphysical name and address.
Heredes (09:14):
That's where the magic happens, and it's funny in a
digital world how much wedevalue the address Because we
feel like an email.
Oh, that's a social mail.
It's a waste of.
Let me tell you somethingLinkedIn gives me the six figure
.
Roy Jones (09:24):
Here's what I learned at Mercy Ships.
Here's what I learned at LibraUniversity.
Here's what I've learned when Iwas at Russ Reed and they had
over 600 nonprofit clients.
If I can just break even on thedirect response program, I'll
do that every day.
Outro (09:39):
Hands down.
Roy Jones (09:40):
Wow, because I make my money with the big gifts.
That's it.
You know, if you're nettingmoney in your digital
acquisition program, you're notspending enough.
If you're making money in yourpaid search, you're not spending
enough.
If you're making money in youremail marketing campaigns,
(10:03):
you're not spending enough,because your net should come
from your one-on-ones.
How many people are you meetingwith?
Those are the metrics thatcount and it's teaching people
that.
Hey, because here's the thingpeople with capacity.
Don't get me wrong.
As I said, there's two bucketsof donors.
There are those that I lovinglycall the Widows Might donor.
(10:29):
They give everything they have.
They give out of SocialSecurity.
They don't have a big gift togive, but they give as much as
they can.
The worst thing you can do ispush them or twist their arm.
You can push them right out ofthe boat by asking for too much,
but then you have that othergroup, the parable of the
(10:49):
talents group, that they'remaking investments and they're
increasing their giving.
You've got to spend time withthose people.
Those people don't do businesswith strangers.
They give on average, accordingto the Association of
Fundraising Professionals, a 7.2charities a year.
Now, when I was at Mercy Ships,we actually surveyed 2,000 of
(11:10):
our top donors and found outthat they gave to 11 charities a
year.
So it depends on the nonprofit.
But that's what you have tounderstand.
If you don't get with them andbuild relationships with them,
the other nonprofits are andguess what they do.
You go from being number one tonumber four, to number six, to
(11:31):
number seven, to giving everyother year to guess what they
lapsed.
Yeah, so when the donors climbup the ladder.
But donors can also climb downthe ladder and then, if you
don't treat them right, theyfall off the ladder.
Collin (11:45):
So so what's?
So?
What's the secret?
Because you know how do we?
How do we get them then tocontinue to climb up the ladder
and and not go down right?
What's what's?
What's the yin and the yangthere?
Roy Jones (11:55):
It's about their passion, not yours.
You know, the first thing I didwhen I got to Mercy ships, we I
think they had three people onstaff and they had these IBM
surface pads and on those padswere loaded PowerPoint
presentations and they weregoing out with donors and flip
page, flip page, flip page, flippage.
(12:16):
We need this much money here.
Flip page, flip place, put itneeded here.
So I walked in and said I got anew tool and I grabbed those
surfaces, picked them up,stacked them on the table.
So we have a new tool and ifyou can't see me, it's been in
paper and we're gonna sit andwe're gonna talk to people,
we're gonna find out what theirpassion is and Then fundraising
(12:38):
is easy.
You don't need that bigPowerPoint deck, you know.
You don't need that super demo.
It's about their passion.
Nine times out of ten theyalready know what they want to
do.
They're just waiting forsomebody to ask them and you
find that out, yeah man bylistening, listening, by
listening as the bestfundraisers are always the best
(13:00):
listeners and I've hiredHundreds.
That's another thing that thefirm is doing.
We do it right now.
We've got two paid searchesgoing on right now.
Is is helping our team Higherexperience development directors
, major gift officers, peoplewith hands-on experience and who
are you serving the most?
Heredes (13:18):
Roy Schools churches, are they?
What kind of nonprofits?
Roy Jones (13:21):
a little bit of everything.
We've got a search going onright now at Westminster Academy
and in Fort Myers, florida, drG James Kennedy's former school,
and and you know we're we're,you know, excited about serving,
serving schools.
But then we're, you know we'realso doing another one for the
CS Lewis Society.
Here We've, we've done somestaffing for some of the
(13:47):
Association of Gospel Rescuemissions, what it used to be
called.
It's now called City GateNetwork, but with with some of
our clients there and the in thehomeless shelter space.
You know you're you're lookingat a guy.
I have slept in 50 homelessshelters across America and and
it helped as a fundraisingchallenge or Just to save them
(14:09):
money, and I want to know abouttheir ministry that's
Heredes (14:10):
amazing and if I go, in to help them Call, and we may
need to do that, for like theseepisodes.
Collin (14:15):
Hey.
Heredes (14:15):
I spend the nights when we go the out of state and
that's where we'll do the.
Collin (14:18):
That's what we'll record.
There you go.
Roy Jones (14:19):
I like that.
I see you'll, you'll find outsomething about that ministry.
Heredes (14:23):
I believe, never one thing that stands out from what
you're doing is Now.
You've been there, done that,what you have for years now,
whether it's Liberty, wementioned, whether it's Mercy
ships and many others, you're init.
You're still doing it.
You're meeting with donorsface-to-face, you're doing the,
the.
Tell us why that's importantand well it's.
Roy Jones (14:43):
It's really different in our, in our Industry.
To begin with, first, first,all it's.
First of all it's.
It's unique in that Most peopledon't want to go through the
trouble of Registering as asolicitor in their state, and so
registering is fundraisingcouncil, that's no problem.
(15:04):
Registering as a solicitor,it's a challenge.
What, why?
Heredes (15:09):
Break down the difference.
Roy Jones (15:10):
Well, it's in some states Florida it's not so bad,
but but if I'm wherever,whatever state I'm doing actual
fund solicitation in, I have toregister as a solicitor.
You know some states like NewYork, I got a post of $50,000
bond, you know.
And so because of the of thestructure that political leaders
have created and again, it'sall done for the right reasons
(15:31):
it's about transparency.
If a donor wants to check out acharity, they need to be able
to, to go to the governmentwebsite, look at their contracts
, look at their 990, look at theFirms like fit fundraising that
they've engaged with, see whatthey're being paid.
They want to make sure that ifthey make a donation, that it's
going to the charity, not to thebig bald guy and so they
(15:53):
deserve that.
So I'm not opposed to that.
But because of that, a lot, of,a lot of agencies have gotten
out of the field.
You know, I mean I, I knowhundreds of Agencies and in most
of them have not met with thedonor in 20 years.
Hmm, and things change.
Oh yeah, donors engageDifferently.
(16:16):
I mean, I mean, every four orfive years the methodology
changes.
It goes back and forth.
You know, it's, it'sinteresting.
Four years ago, you know, Iwould tell people, you know,
don't use the phone.
Donors don't want to use thephone.
You know, you got to getface-to-face with people.
Today I'm doing more phone workthan I've ever done in 20 years
.
Heredes (16:34):
It's, it's the phone is calls or you talk text
messaging.
You got to do both andintegration is the key.
Roy Jones (16:40):
You know, you do have to use email, you do have to
use text, you do have toactually use voicemail and then
actually you use all three ofthose things to to actually have
an actual conversation socialnetworks.
Heredes (16:53):
Tell me about those for a little bit.
Roy Jones (16:54):
It.
It's a Social media, is stillPR, not DR.
You know it's still publicrelations.
You're still building brand,you're building culture, you're
building name ID.
It's still not.
There are some exceptions, butbut for the most part it's still
(17:19):
not the space that that thatyou raise the revenue in.
You know, I mean most of thesetools that we use.
You know I I call them driversand converters, and so there are
drivers that kind of pushpeople to where they can convert
, actually make a donation.
And again, I call a converteran actual donation, not eyeballs
(17:40):
on a page not somebody opensomething not impressions Great,
but but somebody actually givesyou money.
Heredes (17:46):
There's a transaction.
Roy Jones (17:47):
There's a transaction and and so there's, you got to
have the drivers To get peopleto convert.
You know, in the old days,direct mail, that was always a
converter.
People sent back that replyenvelope with a check in it.
Well, now direct mail hasbecome a driver.
Interesting and so the replydevices don't.
(18:07):
You know, probably 50 percentdepends on the nonprofit, but
I've talked to many.
They're seeing as high as 50percent of all their direct mail
donations Come online.
Heredes (18:20):
So so the website, the QR code, but.
But if they didn't.
Roy Jones (18:24):
If they didn't send the mailing out, they wouldn't
go online to get a driver.
Yeah and so and so.
Direct mail is quickly becominga driver, not a converter.
But if you shut down your directmail program, trust me you're
gonna be out of business feel it, yeah, you feel it, yeah, and I
know people that have justflipped the switch and, and it's
a worst thing you can do Wow,you have to integrate.
(18:46):
You got to do both or all, andand, whether it's you know, you
touched on them texting email,social media, old-fashioned
snail mail.
Heredes (18:56):
You got to do them all and right.
Tell me about this, obviously,here in first and through the
podcast.
We're, you know, in thebusiness of telling those
stories, of sharing the impact,of helping the nonprofits we
serve that are listening rightnow Gage, highlight what's
converted, highlight, you know,create the drivers for them.
What, what, in your opinion,are essential.
These are key, essentialdrivers that must happen and
(19:18):
some that you would say, hey,let's reconsider this or take a
look at this.
It's not what it's amped up tobe any advice there.
Roy Jones (19:25):
Yeah, I mean you have to be real careful, because if
you asked any donor Do you wantto get mail the answer is no, no
, yes, danny, don't know.
Do you want to get more email?
Heredes (19:38):
No.
Roy Jones (19:39):
Do you want to get more text messages from us?
No, true, okay, so so you know.
My recommendation is just tounderstand.
You do have to work with thefrequency you know most of the
nonprofits I see today are doing, believe it or not, almost one
(20:00):
email a day on average.
Really 150 to 200 emails a year.
And okay, now do the math.
If the average nonprofit Wow ifthe average nonprofit donor is
giving to 7.2 charities.
They're flooded do the math.
Heredes (20:18):
They're flooded.
Hmm, so is there fatigue there,because I mean other is yeah
but?
Roy Jones (20:22):
but there, the other side is, there are people that
read it all and there's resultsyeah, and Usually I've heard it
described, and I think it's morelike this it's like a river.
You know, you and you throw thethe line and hook out there.
You don't catch a fish everytime you throw it out there, but
all the sudden boom, here'sthis whole school that just
(20:44):
happens to be there at that timewhen you cast, and so you got
to keep Casting, yeah, and sothat's the problem.
If you're not in that space,somebody else is, and so you
know.
My recommendation, though, isreally looking at the using
segmentation, and again, everyorganization has a different
level as to what's considered amajor donor.
(21:06):
You know, when I was at Mercyships, it was like five figure
giving was a major donor.
You know, you look at WorldVision, six figure giving is a
major starting point.
You know I mean they have ahundred and fifty full-time
major gift offices around thecountry.
Heredes (21:22):
They're doing.
They're doing a bill plus.
Roy Jones (21:23):
Yes, they're doing a billion dollars a year plus, and
they are, they are meet, theymeet with a lot of people, you
know so.
So so they create a treatment.
We create a treatment for the,for the, the big donors.
It's usually less frequency,but it's more personalized
frequency, and what I mean bythat is it's not a lot of big
(21:46):
fancy graphics, it's not a lotof super amazing video Things.
They dumb it down simple and andthey keep it simple and it
really looks like the presidentsat down an outlook and sent
them an outlook message.
When they get the, thecorresponding letter that goes
(22:08):
with it.
Heredes (22:08):
It really looks like a note from the president.
Roy Jones (22:11):
He sent that you know laser jet off his desk and it
went out that way and the copieswritten.
It's not a lot of we and us andour and this big thing where
we're casting this thing tomillions.
No, it is me and you, hey, jim.
I want to say thank you, it is,it is very very, and so it's a
different Tone, say, might bethe same exact offer, the same
(22:34):
project, but the tone isdifferent.
And then you've got to createmiddle donor communications and
that's kind of a hybrid betweenthe mass marketing the one to
many and what I just described,the one to one.
Yeah, and and and the biggestdifference with your middles,
where one to many, you knowyou're tailoring your ass, not
(22:57):
only your offer but your askamount, how much you're asking
for and so and so.
Now, with with your, with yourmajors, you tend to, for the
most part, go to open, ask, andso people that look like it's
literally a blank.
Heredes (23:13):
Really, that's at the top tier, right, you're going
blank right and you're you.
Roy Jones (23:17):
Hey, you know, you know you, might you share the
goal?
You might share the goal, youmight share what they've given
in the past and it's, you knowit's written in such a way hey,
a year ago you helped us with agift for ten thousand dollars.
Thank you, I want you to prayabout helping us this year.
It is mission critical and soyou know you can you put that
(23:39):
custom in there, but it's, it'snot.
It's not listed as 10,000,5,000, 2,500 thousand.
It's right.
Collin (23:48):
It's an open, whereas you would want to do something
like that with that kind of thatmiddle level.
Roy Jones (23:52):
Yes, yes, and, and usually the different people
have different preferences.
You know, usually you with thatmiddle donor segment, you're
not going to use a gift arraythat's five figures plus.
You know, especially if you'rebuilding an offer around the
number of people fed or thenumber of people helped, it
(24:12):
could just you can kind of lookweird.
You know your gift of a hundredthousand helps us with fifty
thousand meals.
You know.
I mean, you know, and we'reonly gonna feed 2000 next week.
You know it's and so and so youhave to kind of be careful.
Offer development is key.
Yeah, it's good, you know yougot to think through these
offers when you do segmentationand just realize that the bigger
(24:34):
people you know they don't wantyou spending money on them and
their investors.
Heredes (24:40):
I need to have a question on that.
Served at a nonprofit a fewyears ago Running a raising
about 30 million Annually.
So fairly, you know, not in thebillions, but large but their
sophistication yes, um and wedeveloped a tier system, now
inspired by American ExpressMm-hmm, where you would enter
certain levels and it came.
(25:01):
It's interesting because Icould justify and say that it
was successful Because therewere conversions there were at
results.
At the same time, there was alot of drop-offs because no,
obviously was a faith base Sayno, I don't want to be
categorized or put into thislevel or this tier, or gold,
platinum, black, titanium, andit was a very obvious Type of
(25:23):
gift you got.
Type of type of treatment yougot, type of seat you got.
So it became what's that?
This is, let's say, decade plusago.
Okay, it made for creative,very easy, because this was
categorized right this was verysimple.
The messaging, the segmentationwas clear.
Where, where are we today?
I think in the consumer.
Obviously American Express doeswell with that in Creating in
(25:45):
the first from first class ofbusiness class to the access to
the lounge right or access tothe tickets.
Does it work?
Have you seen it?
What would be yourrecommendation?
Roy Jones (25:52):
It really depends on the nonprofit and in some cases
it will work and be great.
In other cases it won't.
Because I mean, what you haveto realize is, over time, you
are training donors to act acertain way and so if they've
been used to responding in thattiered concept, it could work
(26:13):
very well, you know.
But if, if they really haven'tbeen trained that way, you know
that this is our culture andthis is how we identify offers,
this is how we fund projects,it'll bomb so it.
I wish I had a straight answerfor you.
There's really not.
It depends on on the culture inthe history.
In some cases that's likeexactly the right move, in other
(26:35):
cases It'll be disaster.
Heredes (26:37):
That's a great point on the conditioning to of what
you're trying, who you're tryingon board, because, yeah, it's a
culture of the leadership, theculture of the company or the
organization that makes sense.
Roy Jones (26:46):
You know, the the hardest thing for most
nonprofits to realize Is thatyou, the way you grow revenue is
by feeding this fight withmanpower.
And they, they refuse to spendthe money to staff up.
And and you know that theaverage major gift officer in
(27:12):
America, and and again I've,I've, I've interviewed thousands
, I've hired several hundredOver the last couple decades.
I've fired 20 or 30.
They were, you know, I wouldn'thave hired him if they weren't
great talkers, but I had to firethem because what I do is
(27:33):
measure activity results, right,you know?
And again, when I say results,I'm not talking about how much
money did they raise.
I Don't.
I don't count the money, Icount the activity put in the
work.
You know how many actualconversations did you have by
phone and email and text, whatmeaningful communications you
have, how many face-to-facemeetings did you have?
(27:56):
How many projects did youdiscuss?
If you're measuring those kindof metrics, gonna raise a lot of
money.
Heredes (28:06):
Is it a numbers game?
Right at that point.
Roy Jones (28:07):
It is.
Heredes (28:08):
It is if I, if I put a hundred, I'm gonna yield 10 and
it's gonna.
Roy Jones (28:13):
Well and again, but with with these, let me, let me
tell you a story, and and Iwon't give her full name, I
won't tell the organization shewas with- Samantha Jones from.
This.
This lady's name was Amy andshe's on the West Coast, that's
all I'll tell you.
But she came to me and she saidI've got a portfolio of about
(28:34):
about 120 names.
These people will never, neverBe able to give more than a half
a million dollars.
I know them, I've talked tothem, I've met with them, I know
what they're giving history asthey will never do it.
So they trust me, you know, ifyou will do eight to ten
(28:56):
meetings a month, if you willbegin to risk, instead of going
out and pitching, to go out andhave conversations about what
they want to do.
It's a totally differentengagement strategy.
I'm not gonna.
I'm not.
I am not measuring how muchmoney you raised.
I'm measuring how many of thosekinds of conversations did you
(29:21):
have?
And Within a year, she, she didlike 1.2 million within three
years from those same people.
Wow, she generated about fivemillion dollars.
Wow, hmm.
Outro (29:34):
Why.
Roy Jones (29:35):
Because she ministered put in the reps, she
put in the reps, you put in thefront of them eight a month.
Collin (29:40):
Yes, eight a month, and just that.
Yeah, I'm two visits a week,right?
Heredes (29:44):
So super curious now.
So we're gonna expand for thoselocal and say, well, I have my
little zip code or I have myregion and I have my state and
obviously you're flying all overthe country, the world, talk to
us about, because in some waysit becomes very sales repi, but
it's, we're not sales.
There's a development ofrelationships.
Break that down like virtuallyin 2020.
(30:05):
That changed right, thateverybody had to figure that out
, yes, but climate, I mean Imean these.
Roy Jones (30:12):
even during COVID, these big investors, they still
wanted to meet.
Now they may not have been ableto take a meeting, or they did
one on one end of a table tablethree masses six feet Right.
Collin (30:30):
Remember, they're investors.
Heredes (30:31):
They don't just give money away to strangers and some
way more scrutinized, evenduring that pandemic Right, they
wanted to know, they wanted toknow more.
Roy Jones (30:38):
Yeah and, as you know , people gave more during the
pandemic and they didn't do thatAccidentally.
They were intentionally seekingout conversations.
Good, they didn't.
This didn't happen because wesent some magic email to them or
some unique direct mail piece.
This happened because they metwith major gift specialists
(30:58):
one-on-one.
That's how it happened.
And and again that one-on-one.
Don't get me wrong.
I do think during the, the peaktime of the pandemic, there
were a lot of zoom meetings, butI have found people are sick of
them right now and and and they, you know they'll do a zoom
meeting just to schedule a realmeeting.
Heredes (31:19):
Now, which is so the 8 to 10 like we're gonna use Amy
from the West Coast will remainunnamed, but you can find a link
to her profile linked in here.
Does it have to be?
Does a virtual meeting or aphone call to you equate the
result of a?
Roy Jones (31:31):
it can, it can't it absolutely can.
Outro (31:34):
Okay.
Roy Jones (31:34):
I call them meaningful contacts.
Okay, you know, it can be amove Again if it's
conversational.
If you're just pitching, stoppitching.
We don't raise money bypitching.
It doesn't work that way.
It is about talking aboutprojects, talking about what the
donors thinking about.
It's about setting theexpectation when people and
(31:57):
again I talk about how we traindonors with our methodology
Donors know, if they fall intoone of the programs that I've
helped develop that ourexpectation is.
You know, mrs Smith, you know,I promise you and I'll say this
on the phone, I'll say this inperson Usually, the first time I
sit down with somebody, what Ilike to do, and I wish I could
(32:20):
say it was just me, but ourboard wants me to meet with our
top supporters, and you're oneof them.
Thank you last year.
Last year, you gave Whateverthe number was, you know $20,000
(32:42):
, $30 over the last 10 years.
You know how many donationsyou've made.
No, we made 287 gifts and, as amatter of fact, you've given a
hundred and forty thousanddollars.
Thank you.
Yeah, our board has asked me tomeet with you once a year.
They want me to give you animpact report on how we spent
(33:03):
your money last year.
And then they do want me tofind out what you want to do
this year.
They've asked me intentionallynot to come in here and just
pitch stuff, and so I promiseyou when I call you, I'm not
calling to pitch, I'm calling sothat, so that we can have our
annual planning meeting and youtell me when your passion is and
what you want to do this year,because I find those passions do
(33:25):
shift a little bit, mrs Smith,and and now I have other people
that have been supporting thesame thing for a decade.
But but we want this, I wantyou to know.
This is about you.
I wish we could do this withevery donor.
We can't.
As you know, we have 23,000donors to the organization.
I can only meet with about ahundred people.
You are one of the hundred toppeople to this organization.
(33:49):
That's why I'm calling you.
Collin (33:52):
That's a masterclass right there.
What?
Heredes (33:54):
Yeah, if you didn't, we're gonna script this and
print this.
That's fantastic and they loveit.
Roy Jones (33:59):
I love it, they love it.
You know I, while I'm there,I'm probing.
Okay, you talked about being agood listener.
The worst fundraisers are thebest talkers, the people that
are pitching, the people thatyou know, blah, blah, blah, blah
, blah.
They're the worst fundraisers.
(34:19):
You got to shut up.
I mean, if more than 25% of theconversation is you talking,
you're not gonna raise any money.
It is about the donor tellingyou what projects they're
interested in them understanding, while you're here Again
pulling out that high-techyellow tablet.
Heredes (34:42):
The lane page yellow tablet.
Roy Jones (34:44):
And would you care if I wrote that down?
It's amazing, and you know Ilean in.
They lean in.
I mean they're amazed thatsomebody's actually listening to
them Right.
Then I go to the door and foryou for you older folks out
there, I call this the Colomboclothes, but some of the younger
people call it the door hingeAll right, so you want some
(35:05):
techniques bring it.
So.
So, as you leave, you'vewritten down.
They told you what their onething is.
Everybody's got that one thing.
They've told you what it is,what they want to do.
As you leave, you know you kindof.
Do you remember Colombo, theprogram?
Outro (35:20):
I know it's, it's you'll have to go back, and you do it.
Collin (35:23):
Yes.
Roy Jones (35:24):
You'll have to YouTube it tonight.
But he was this frumpy olddetective and Everybody thought
he was clueless, didn't knowwhat was going on.
You know, he wore old wrinkledovercoat and and it's a British
show and no, it's.
American show and so so.
So YouTube it tonight.
You'll get a kick out of it,because in every episode you
(35:45):
know he's, he's, he'sinterrogating the, the, the
criminal.
The criminal thinks he got awaywith it.
He goes to the door, he turnsthe door knob, he goes to step
out and then he looks back.
You know what?
I forgot something?
One more thing, one more thing.
And then he asked that onequestion that just crushes that
(36:05):
criminal.
He knows they're going to jail.
Got him, it got him, and so.
So some of my younger audiencecall that the door hinge.
Outro (36:12):
So when.
Roy Jones (36:13):
I get to the door hinge Before I walk out, I tap
my head and say, oh now, mrsSmith, you said you had a
passion for for helping children.
I'd like to go back to ourchildren's program director and
find out what our biggest needsare in that area and Come back
to you with with a couple ofthose to look at.
(36:34):
How does that sound to you?
Heredes (36:37):
Guess what boom.
Of course, custom custom she'sto them.
Roy Jones (36:41):
Most of the time they say you do that for me, I love
it.
You do that for me, yeah, youbet I can't do it for everybody.
I can only meet with about ahundred people a year.
Yes, mrs Smith, I can do it foryou.
Heredes (36:54):
Wow, I love how sincere house, strategic, how
successful that that is andengaging and truly it's what
donors want.
Roy Jones (37:01):
Yes, they're waiting for people to treat them like
people.
They're waiting for somebody tolisten to them, not just send
them.
You know, 200 emails a year,yeah, here's what we need.
Or gifts that are gonna gettossed, or you know that they
they want a one-on-onerelationship and you know they
(37:21):
want to do business with people.
They know right.
Heredes (37:23):
Tell me about this.
That's an.
You know you're developing anengaged donor.
Tell me about activation.
What kind of conversation areyou having with someone?
You've identified the address,the zip code, the, and they've
given zero and, as far as youknow, they're not engaged spend
much time with those kind ofpeople really tell me, so why
not?
Roy Jones (37:41):
who should?
That's the heaviest left in thebusiness.
Anything you read, it's gonnatake you six to 18 months to get
a donation from that person.
Hmm, I don't have that kind oftime.
Heredes (37:52):
So who should?
Should we?
Should we get into that?
Roy Jones (37:55):
That's the purpose of direct response.
The first gift get 25 bucksfrom them.
So then they'll do a hundred,then they'll do 250, then they
do 500.
They start to show up on myradar screen then Okay, so let
them exercise the muscle indifferent engagements.
Yes, they're gonna engage withyou.
You know again, that's how theydo it.
It's.
I don't think they sit downwith a plan that okay, this year
(38:17):
I'm gonna check out ten newcharities.
But they do it's instinctive,it's a visceral yes they do.
They make a certain number oftheir gifts are gonna be smaller
gifts.
They're gonna put it in and seewhat happens and and and.
That's how you acquire bigdonors.
Don't again, if, if, if and I'mnot saying don't ever, because
(38:40):
I've I've done a bunch of itmyself.
But if you're gonna cold callpeople with capacity, you know
who could make a by figure,six-figure gift, don't spend
more than 20% of your time doingthat, because that's been
advice, because you will belooking for a job within six
months.
Wow, and, and that's.
(39:01):
And that's where most of ourindustry is today and there's a
reason for that.
You know they get pressure putunder desperation, desperation.
They're, they're seniormanagement, the board.
They don't know how fundraisingreally happens.
You know they think, oh no,major donors come in and they
write a $10,000 gift out of theshoot.
No, you're wrong.
(39:22):
Yeah, it doesn't happen thatway.
Collin (39:24):
So what's so?
What's the process then?
Once you've identified becauseyou know you leave, you leave
the zero Givers alone, you don'tworry about them.
You, you want to build, build areputation of an extra giver
once you identify, then thenwhat is that process to getting
to when our, our, our friend is,where you went and visited and
you said you know, this is allyou've given.
How do you go from?
You know?
What's the intermediate there,what's the process?
Roy Jones (39:46):
What takes.
It usually takes the firstthing, that and this is the
hardest part for Developmentdirectors, ceos, board chair
people and major gift officersto understand.
But it usually takes about sixmonths For these donors to first
(40:07):
of all believe that oh, he's orshe's gonna actually stay there
.
Because, guess what?
You're probably the the 10thperson in 10 years To call them
from that charity, and they knowit is a.
Heredes (40:22):
Revolving door, revolving door.
Roy Jones (40:23):
But if they say oh, this guy's persistent, this
guy's persistent.
And again, you know, I you doyou keep, you do have to keep
your sanity and you do have tobe professional.
You know, I'm not saying youpound people, you know, seven
times a week for three weeks toget in front of them.
No, there's a rhythm to it.
(40:44):
You know you're probably doingInitially an email the first
week, With a voicemail as well.
The second week you're probablygonna send a follow-up email.
The third week you're gonnaleave a voicemail.
(41:04):
If they don't respond, you moveon.
But again, I'm probably gonnagive it two or three weeks and
we'll cycle through again andI'm gonna give it about three
cycles.
It's gonna be, you know, 90 to180 days of that For them to
know you're there.
There's only one way to get ridof me and that's talk to me.
(41:27):
And this is my job and again, Isometimes the truth works.
I do not use voicemail, I donot use email, I do not use
handwritten notes, as you know.
Paid Public serviceannouncements.
Hello, this is Roy Jonescalling.
I just wanted to thank you forsupporting the ministry.
If you could give me a callback, I won't take much of your
(41:49):
time, but but I really wouldlike to talk to you and Again,
thank you so much for all you dofor us.
You are not gonna get a callback with that voicemail.
I'm not at all and you know myvoicemail.
You know usually, and again, ifyou time it right and you set
up a process internally whereanybody that's in your portfolio
, in your assignments, if theymake a gift for any amount, you
(42:13):
are to be notified immediately,it's got to be a flag, a trigger
on that database system to tellyou because that's the best
time to get a call returned,because Because that voicemail
is hey, this is Roy.
Have a quick question regardingthe donation you just made.
Won't keep you on the phonemore than a minute, oh, that's
give me a call back.
Guess what they call you backyeah immediately.
Heredes (42:34):
They're thinking.
They're thinking ten thingsright.
Collin (42:36):
Yeah, yeah, they're like what, what happened?
Roy Jones (42:38):
And I've actually said and I've used that same,
that same process with the samedonor Dozens of times and they
always call you back.
That's great, and they usuallyknow I'm calling to set up a
visit.
Um, they know, after talking tome or time or two, that I
rarely use the phone to ask formoney.
(42:59):
Now I will do it and I havedone it, and sometimes I don't
intend to do it, but the donorsays we don't need to meet.
Let me, you know, I've met withthem before.
I mean, they know me On a firstname basis.
They know my wife, they, theyknow about my kids, my grandkids
.
You know they're, they're myfriend.
Yeah, so, roy, listen, we don'tneed to meet.
(43:19):
Talk to me about that projectyou want to talk about.
You know, and and Usually it'sit's the project that they are
to support.
They probably know more about itthan I know.
Um and so, and so it's at thatpoint.
Heredes (43:34):
What's your action?
Step there, how do you, how doyou not let that slip?
Is it a what's the cta?
Roy Jones (43:39):
It's.
It's in some cases I'll I'lljust jump right at it.
So well, here's what's going on.
Um.
You know I talked to theprogram director today, wanted
to get your thoughts.
We thought this might besomething you'd be interested in
helping us with, um.
You know, last year you helpedus with with 10,000 Um.
We'd like you to consider agift of 15 this year.
Here are quite a god.
Outro (44:03):
The next one that speaks loses.
Roy Jones (44:09):
That's how it works, and it's the same way in person.
When I leave a voicemail withpeople, I never tell them why
I'm calling.
I make the voicemail abouttheir time and they know if
they're on the phone with meonce they talk to me at a time
or two.
I am not the guy that keepsthem on the phone for 20 minutes
.
If they call me back andthey're on the phone more than a
(44:32):
minute, um it's too long, umthat, and that's why I get
callbacks, because I've trainedthem.
They know if they call me back,it's going to be quick.
I'm not going to use the phoneto to chew up their day.
Um, that phone is a specifictool, primarily so I can get in
front of them.
Heredes (44:49):
Yeah, and right into how valuable, right in an
artificial intelligent world welive in today I'm doing air
quotes here how valuable thatreal touch phone call, humanized
, one minute or less, doesn'thave to be an hour.
Catch up.
Roy Jones (45:01):
And it's.
You know it's, it's integrated,correct?
Um, if you're just doing phonecalls, you're not going to get a
call back.
You got to do a phone call, yougot to do an email, you got to
do text and then now, of course,the latest thing is not just a
text.
You got to leave a recordedmessage on the text.
Outro (45:20):
Or a video or a video.
Or a video or a video, yeah.
Roy Jones (45:25):
And so.
But it's integration, I meaneven I mean I hate to say this
because I so want to, you know.
I mean I'm 65 years old, mysons are 40 and 38 and 31.
And I so want to talk to them,but usually I get to text them
and sometimes we'll actuallyleave each other voicemails, you
know, and but we're going backand forth and that's kind of how
(45:47):
people communicate these days.
Heredes (45:48):
I blinked the boomers man.
They did that to us and youknow it's a different world.
But you got to use them, allyou got to use them all you
can't ignore Including what yousaid, the printed pieces, the
directs.
Roy Jones (45:58):
To ignore that, you are leaving the touch points on
the table right, and there aresome people, especially if
they're considering, you know,making a substantial gift they
like that piece of paper.
There's just something abouttangible touching it.
There's something tactical aboutit.
Tactical about it that theythey pray over it literally.
(46:20):
Yeah, I've gone into people'shomes and they have three or
four stacks of certain letters,different things they're
thinking about, praying about,and you know it's.
I talked about feeding thisfight with manpower.
You know some military toolshere, but there was a Civil War
general that said he who getsthere the firstest with the
(46:43):
mostest wins, and you know theperson that spent the right
amount of time on that piece ofpaper, that really tailored that
message and made it one to oneand really told the story.
They're the one that get themoney.
Heredes (46:58):
Yep and they quit.
You know I've got five kids,roy, and we've got a bazillion
digital photos and things goingon on our phones of them.
But what makes it to the fridgethat drawing?
Or that picture that's going toget the daily attention
conversation multiple.
So there's something to that.
Yeah, it doesn't devalue thedigital, but there's something
about it.
Collin (47:18):
You saw my drawing up there.
I had to take it down.
Roy Jones (47:20):
It was, you know, we prayed enough for the request.
That does make me think ofanother thing that I think
really works well in thesemeetings.
They know, after meeting withme a time or two, that I never
come empty handed and usuallyI'm bringing them a gift that
(47:40):
was made by somebody.
In our program, when I was atMercy Ships, I used to bring
wealthy people over to the shipWe'd fly to Africa together.
They'd pay for their own tripand I ran into a guy there that
had received a surgery and hewas a woodcarver and he carved a
little giraffe and gave it tome and I said you love doing
(48:05):
that, I love it.
He said how many of those couldyou do a month?
I said I could do 50 a month.
I said what would you sell themto me for?
He goes a dollar, of course.
$50 a month is probably twicetheir.
Heredes (48:22):
Their wage, their wage.
Roy Jones (48:26):
I said you have a contract, you've been
commissioned, and so for a year,the first thing I would do is
give every donor I met withsomething made by one of our
clients.
Talking about marketing that'sright there on their counter
every time they look at it, andI mean if their house catches on
fire that's coming out withthem.
(48:48):
It means something to them.
And again, you talk aboutchildren's drawings so many
times, whether it's a homeless,shelter, a ministry to families,
people in need.
Just creating color pages thatsay that have the words thank
you at the bottom and have thekids color those and give it
(49:09):
back.
And guess what I do?
I frame it and mat it with theorganization logo at the top.
Go to Hobby Lobby.
You can buy a frame and mat for$1.50.
And that whole thing costs$1.50.
And I'm telling you I've goneinto people's homes and you've
got to kind of keep trackbecause you can't give them the
same drawing more than once.
So you do have to.
Heredes (49:29):
You said this was from Suzy last year.
Right, You've got to make sureit's a different drawing.
Roy Jones (49:36):
But that kind of thing.
It just makes an.
When you can tie the gift tothe program in some way, it just
means something to the donor.
And again, these donors, theyall say they don't want to be
thanked and they don't want tobe treated special and they
(49:56):
don't want anybody to doanything special for them.
They lie, they do, theyabsolutely do.
Outro (50:03):
How many years of experience?
30, 40?
.
Roy Jones (50:05):
Over 40 now.
Heredes (50:07):
So that plays true, because I've heard that too, roy
, I don't want to be anonymous,I don't want people to know, I
don't want to.
Roy Jones (50:14):
You can respect anonymity, but still thank them.
Heredes (50:16):
That's good.
Roy Jones (50:18):
And so you do have to be careful about that.
The really wealthy people don'twant to be recognized, because
then you got 10 bald guysshowing up on their doorstep.
But they appreciate beingthanked, and especially if it's
from someone connected to yourprogram.
Don't go buy something slick.
Don't go spend a lot of moneyon something.
Heredes (50:40):
So you don't need the Rolex to nurture the gift.
Roy Jones (50:43):
You don't even need the slick four color brochure
and all that.
I mean you don't need all thatstuff.
It's the hands, crafts of somekind.
Collin (50:53):
The more personal.
Roy Jones (50:54):
The more personal, the better.
Heredes (50:56):
Especially at that level.
Now the investment is what yousaid earlier, Roy.
The investment to raise is inthe development, in the staffing
, and it takes that, which is itbrings me to.
How do they find you?
How can they connect with you,those who are listening?
They need some more coachingwith their current team.
Maybe they've got some entrylevel folks who are just getting
started or looking to be CDOsone day in their company.
Roy Jones (51:19):
And again, remember, I mean how we begin most of our
relationships is it starts outin kind of increments of two
hour free conversations.
We're not charging you.
The meter's not running.
When I go in to help anonprofit, I want to find out
what's broke and I want to fixthat.
I don't want to go breaksomething.
I don't want to jump intosomething you're already doing
(51:39):
well.
No, I want to find the areathat you need the most help and
run in and help you fix that.
But it's really easy.
You can go to RoyJonesorg orfitfundersingcom.
They take you to the same place.
Heredes (51:54):
Or the bald guy.
We'll get that for you.
You guys can get that monikerfor me.
Roy Jones (52:00):
So but yeah, and we'd be happy to talk to you anytime
, and it is, it's what I do.
And really it's teaching,modeling.
And when I say modeling I don'tmean in a conference room
somewhere.
We do some of that, but thereal application happens out in
(52:21):
the field.
When I can go out with peoplein the field and they see me do
this, guess what?
They say I can do that, I cando that.
And so often they think it'ssome magic words that you say or
some slick presentation or somesuper secret thing.
It's a magic trick.
Heredes (52:39):
It's not at all.
It's not at all.
Roy Jones (52:41):
It's about loving people.
It's about ministering topeople.
It's about caring for them,finding out what their passion
is and then helping them do it.
Heredes (52:49):
That's great I love that Before we wrap up, colin.
Thank you so much, roy.
Just for fun fact, do you payfor the meal or do they let them
pay for the?
Roy Jones (52:56):
meal I try to.
I always try to.
They rarely will let me, and soit's an honor to them to do it.
And so there's been occasionwhere you'll insist, we're all
insist, but it's usually afterI've warmed out for two months
(53:17):
to get the meeting.
But in most cases they pay forthe meal.
Heredes (53:21):
This is my last one, Colin.
Roy Jones (53:22):
I promise officially Okay.
Back to where we started.
Heredes (53:25):
I'm going to close this Back to where we started.
You've got their email andtheir phone number and we talked
about the value of that addressand you've explained it so
incredibly well.
How do I get that?
What's the best way?
How have you seen the best way?
Roy Jones (53:38):
to get that Free offer Free, free, free Bingo.
Heredes (53:40):
So it's a value offer.
Roy Jones (53:41):
Nothing's more important than free.
Heredes (53:42):
Free book.
I'm going to send you a free.
Roy Jones (53:45):
And again you know, yeah, you could email it to them
, but you don't get it unless Iget your address.
That's the way it works, and soit's you know.
And again you're going to needto change those offers out
because not everybody respondedto that one, so you're going to
have to keep fishing withdifferent bait to get that name
(54:08):
and address.
But it's important.
Heredes (54:11):
Is there a ratio of a standard value offer price point
?
There you've seen successful onthe offer and again and yeah,
it's hard to say.
Roy Jones (54:19):
I mean, you know a lot of organizations, especially
those with larger directresponse programs, whether it's
DRTV or direct response radio,you know will will create a
robust monthly giving program.
(54:40):
Those tend to be under 20 bucks, so I've seen them ratcheting
up closer to 30 bucks recently.
But you know.
But it's the.
You know the problem peoplewrestle with to acquire a new
donor in a channel other thanthan digital.
(55:02):
You're going to spend between150 and $250 to acquire a new
donor.
So what that means is, if theaverage gift is $100, you know
it's going to take two gifts tobreak even to start to really
get started.
But you get that second gift andthe long term donor value on
that name is is unbelievable andso it pays for itself.
(55:25):
But, but, but, but you know youkind of see that and that's
really what you're wrestlingwith.
I mean the downside, and I've,I think, you got to acquire
donors.
If you're not doing paid search, you're making a mistake.
You're going to be able toacquire donors at a fraction of
the cost, and when I sayfraction, you know 30 to 60
(55:48):
bucks a name versus 150 to $250a name.
You know.
the downside is you don't tendto get as many people who will
wealth profile as a, as a cashmillionaire in the digital
domain, and so that's why youstill want to do direct response
(56:08):
acquisition, because you getolder donors and older donors
have more disposable income.
So you still got to have a mix,it's got to be a blend and
that's.
You know, if I could, when Ilook across the the nonprofit
sector right now, I mean thebiggest mistake that people make
is putting all their eggs inone basket.
They find one thing that worksand they boom, jump there
(56:31):
without thinking about the longterm consequences of that,
because when you do that you canpunch holes in your file and,
yeah, it's good for a while, butlong term it can really hurt
you.
So, again, I think you got todo both, you know, and these new
channels that continue to comeonline to us.
We got to use them all.
You got to use them all.
Heredes (56:51):
I love it.
And again, one of our, one ofour partners I won't name it
this time, but same doesincredibly well with the 50 plus
demographic.
You're talking checks in themail and millions and millions
shifted there, still doing that,but going to a TikTok approach
and Instagram and digitalthinking long term thinking well
, that's going to be the 50 yearold and they want the brand
(57:13):
awareness and that's helpingthem understand that they've
been around, they're trusted,there's tenure, there's here's
what they've been doing.
So, when that so veryinteresting shift, because then
you're talking, the segmentationthere is obviously pulled.
Collin (57:24):
I just make sure to group of 50 year olds doing
dance.
Heredes (57:27):
And that's how we're going about.
Roy Jones (57:28):
That's right, I'll be , that'll be me, we're going to
go for costumes.
Heredes (57:31):
There you go.
Collin (57:32):
Yes, thanks for doing that, roy, this has been, this
has been great.
What an incredible.
Well, I'll just say you'rewelcome to our listeners,
because we gave you somethingfor free today that you probably
should have paid for it.
But thank you so much.
Hey, fitfundraisingcom, ifyou're a nonprofit leader, if
you, if you need to, if you needmoney which is 100% of people
(57:53):
everywhere, fitfundraisingcomRain Making Book make sure to
pick that up as well.
Roy Jones (57:57):
We'll put the link here for the Amazon link yeah.
All the links, everything isgoing to be down there.
If you have trouble sleeping atnight, that Rain Baking Book
can help you.
Heredes (58:04):
So so I love it.
Collin (58:05):
Is it because it'll give more cash in your pocket
and that's going to make youvarious?
Heredes (58:08):
And, by the way, you know, Roy's in the Florida area,
Tampa Bay region.
I'm sure if you want to pay forhis lunch or shadow him at a
lunch to listen in.
I'm sure he'll have coffee andpick his brain, and I'm sure
there's a lot of leaders outthere in the Florida region that
he'll fly to you as well whenhe's out and about.
Collin (58:23):
So thank you, roy Roy, thank you for helping us,
helping us help leaders to gofurther and grow faster, and
thank you guys for listening.
We will see you on the nextepisode of the nonprofit
Renaissance.
Outro (58:35):
Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites aRenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe, and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email at
podcastatverscreativecom.
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