Discover the transformative power of strategic staffing with Tim Foot and Brooke Hodnefield from Slingshot Group, who share their expertise on building resilient nonprofit teams. In a world where aligning personal convictions with an organization's mission has never been more crucial, our guests unravel the complexity of talent retention and innovative hiring. This episode breaks down the nuances of recruitment and the art of creating a workplace culture that resonates with everyone's values, offering a treasure trove of insights for nonprofit leaders looking to forge ahead in a post-pandemic world.
The conversation takes you behind the scenes of Slingshot's distinctive approach to staffing, revealing the foundational role of relationship-building in matching the right talent to the right organization. As Tim and Brooke recount stories from the trenches, they shed light on the delicate dance of managing expectations during the hiring process. Get ready to uncover the secrets to successful leadership searches, and learn why sometimes, patience isn't just a virtue—it's a necessity for finding the perfect fit.
We wrap up with an exploration of work-life integration, and how today's candidates are weighing flexibility and culture against traditional compensation. At the intersection of human touch and the rising trend of AI in recruitment, this episode serves as a reminder that technology is a tool, not a replacement for the nuanced art of hiring. And for those navigating the challenges of fractional employment, our guests share strategies that prove to be both effective and inspiring. If you're ready to elevate your nonprofit's hiring game, this dialogue is not one to miss. Join us to harness the strategies that will steer your organization towards long-term growth and success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Collin (00:09):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Renaissance, where we
help nonprofit leaders gofurther and grow faster.
I'm one of your co-hosts, colin, and in this episode, h and
Justin are joined by specialguests Tim Foote and Brooke
Hodnafield, a slingshot groupwho are seasoned experts in
nonprofit staffing andorganizational growth.
In today's episode, we'rediving into the topics of talent
(00:31):
retention, innovative hiringpractices, post-pandemic and how
strategic staffing canrevolutionize nonprofit
operations.
I hope that you're ready for aninsightful discussion on
building resilient teams thatdrive mission success.
Let's go and let's grow.
Justin (00:49):
I would absolutely love to know how Brooke came on and
how she connected with you guys.
Tim Foot (00:55):
Yeah.
Justin (00:55):
Come on.
Tim Foot (00:55):
Brooke, that's a story .
Brooke Hodenfiled (00:58):
Okay, so my journey to Slingshot in a in a
succinct form, Um, so mybackground is just like a
melting pot of all thesedifferent things and my,
honestly, my life's journey andmoving around and my story is a
melting pot, Even mydenominational journey, my faith
journey, um also represents allthose things.
(01:21):
And so, um, I had been workingat a nonprofit.
I was doing strategicpartnerships and volunteer
management and training and youknow all the things in nonprofit
world that starts with one joband then you end up with like 10
.
I was doing that and it wassupposed to be part time and I
was definitely not working parttime kind of had the crash and
(01:42):
burn moment.
I had a kindergartner that wassupposed to be off the bus to
grandma.
I had scheduled grandma on thewrong day, so I had a
kindergartner that was ridingaround the bus like alone and
the school called and they hadto take him back to school which
horrible.
And I was across town.
I know it was really bad.
So I get the call that Tyson issitting back at school and I
(02:05):
have to go pick him up, and soI'm I'm like crying on the way
there because I'm like thewheels have fallen off.
I've taken on more than I canchew, transitioned away, took a,
took a break, ended up doingsome stuff at my church and
there was this great gospelcentered life design so life
planning type stuff, if you'refamiliar with that, but just
like gospel centered.
So life planning type stuff, ifyou're familiar with that, but
(02:26):
just like gospel centered.
One of the co-creators happenedto be a friend of Slingshot and
said hey, you know, some ofwhat we do here with life
planning with people would beamazing to do as people are
transitioning and as someone'sconsidering to make a career
(02:46):
jump or just exploring what'snext sector to sector or just
what's next on their journey oflife.
So we kind of put together thisidea, this kind of a workshop
of sorts, to help peoplenavigate transition using some
of these tools and some of thethings I've been trained on, and
I honestly had no idea who theslingshot people were.
I'm like, oh, that's a coolname, I like yellow and that's
good, and so truthfully, builtout this thing and I'm like,
(03:07):
sure, let's go talk to aboutthis, this thing, to these
people and let's go out toIrvine.
It sounds awesome.
And so in the in the 11th hourit ended up that the person that
was going to go with me was notable to go and they're like you
got this.
Just you go talk to the people.
You're passionate about thisthing, and definitely was.
So I show up in Irvine and I getto meet the co-founders of
(03:30):
Slingshot and our COO who'scurrently our COO, and other
higher ups at Slingshot andimmediately I felt at peace and
just loved the way that thesepeople showed up.
It was.
They were interactive, theywere relational, they cared
first about like who I wasbefore, even what I was there to
do and talk to them about.
And my keynote presentation wasshowing my presenter notes.
(03:54):
I could, for the life of me,not figure out in that moment
how to take the presenter notesoff and thankfully, like you
know, they rolled with it.
They're like it's all good,this stuff happens.
So long story short, the thingthat I came to share and our
idea wasn't the right thing forthe moment, but I could not
shake how I felt and the culturethat just totally drew me in.
(04:17):
And I recognize I have allthese weird pieces in my journey
of church and nonprofit andfor-profit and recruiting and
ministry and just a big mix ofstuff and it just all in this
moment was like came together,that God had equipped and
designed me to step into thisrole and honestly help other
people do the same thing withall their weird pieces that they
(04:38):
have.
That sometimes doesn't makesense until someone else can see
it.
So that's my story.
Tim Foot (04:45):
It's a great story, Brooke.
One of the things I want to addto that is our favorite piece of
the work that we get to do iswhen the mission of the leader
matches and aligns with themission of the organization in
transitional seasons, even whenyou don't realize you're in a
transitional season, and the wayBrooke embodies our culture and
(05:07):
did on that day and we justknew we needed Brooke on our
team, and then how that shows upin our nonprofit division of
Slingshot is our unfairadvantage, I think, in the
staffing and culture andstrategy space, coaching space
in nonprofit.
So we just love all that Brookeand her team brings.
(05:29):
I don't even remember you notbeing able to turn off your
presenter notes, brooke.
Brooke Hodenfiled (05:35):
Oh, it was real.
I remember it.
I totally remember it.
I love that.
Heredes (05:42):
And were you wearing yellow?
Were you on brand from day one?
Brooke Hodenfiled (05:47):
No, I wasn't.
I bet I still have those pants.
I remember the pants I wore.
They were not yellow.
That would have been a littletoo bold, I think.
Tim Foot (05:54):
Looking at team knows I prefer slingshot green to
slingshot yellow right, yeah,it's true, there's a divide,
there's a divide Although.
I do have yellow over myshoulder there, so We'll put a
pull out to our listeners.
Heredes (06:12):
But, guys, since I love it that you guys, what you do
is you know who you are you'vebuilt a remarkable team and, uh,
you are remarkable folks.
Ever since I've met thefounders, years and years ago,
it feels like a decade plus howlong, how long has slingshot
been?
Um, well, putting people intheir place 17 years, now 17
years, I think 17.
Tim Foot (06:25):
So yeah, I'm, I'm in a .
Yeah, I'm in my gosh.
I've got to do all the numbers13th year.
But I, when I came on, we werejust a handful of.
There was probably five of usand we were a handful of
staffing and coachingengagements.
When Brooke joined us, I thinkwe were probably half the size,
maybe a little bit more, than weare now.
Brooke Hodenfiled (06:45):
Like 35, 40 people Amazing.
Tim Foot (06:47):
Now there's 65 of us around the country and we get to
engage with between 300 and 400organizations a year, so there
is never a dull moment over atSlingshot Friends.
Heredes (06:57):
I love it.
Tim Foot (06:58):
There's all kinds of variety, given that we do so
much work across ministryorganizations, nonprofit in
church.
Heredes (07:07):
But you know, both Justin and I have, you know,
seen the fruit of that, becausewe get to work with the same
churches that either folks thatyou've put in place and building
those teams.
We get to engage with themcreatively, you know, on the
marketing side, on the video,film, design, all of the above.
Tell us this, and then Justin'sgoing to jump in here because
we're going to put you guys onthe hot seat today because a lot
of great content out there youguys have shared great podcasts,
(07:30):
great resources for churchesthat we've seen.
But today we're going to kindof flip the script on you guys a
little bit, just for fun, justto kind of little—we're taping
this in the year of electionhere.
Collin (07:40):
Let's go yeah no-transcript.
Brooke Hodenfiled (08:10):
Yeah, I mean I'll speak to the nonprofit
world, which is the world that Ilive and breathe on the daily.
I would say the first one isjust talents on the move.
There is such a churn that'sgoing on everywhere, across
every space and everyorganization.
It feels that that is true,every space and every
organization.
It feels that that is true Evenmore so if you double click on
that.
I think the churn is real inthe development arena.
If you're a fundraiser, if youare trying to hire a fundraiser,
(08:35):
you are experiencing this, andthe longevity and tenure of a
fundraising professional hasdecreased over time, even from
18 months to 16 months, beingthe average in the last year.
So it's going in the oppositedirection, which is really
wreaking havoc, I think, onnonprofit organizations because
they can't keep developmentprofessionals, and development
(08:57):
professionals have a lot ofoptions right now.
So that's one of the firstthings that comes to mind for me
.
Tim Foot (09:03):
I would add that it's a candidate's market now.
It used to be pre-pandemic thatyou'd get a ton of applications
and you'd be able to pick andchoose.
But now, with all the kind ofremote work opportunities and
contract work opportunities thathave grown out of the pandemic,
(09:23):
I think people have just becomemore innovative in how they
staff.
We really need to tell acompelling story and it's
usually necessary for a thirdparty to tell that for an
organization as to why a personwould want to be a part of the
mission and vision and story ofa given nonprofit or ministry
organization.
(09:44):
So I'd say that's a big thingthat's changed.
It's a candidate's market andas much as you think you're
interviewing for your new leader, your new leader or group of
candidates are absolutelyinterviewing you.
Heredes (09:58):
That's good.
What is the slingshot process?
Is there something you guyshave coined, patented, figured
out this?
Is it the secret sauce, thesilver lining?
What's the process?
And matching, and specificallyBrooke, with the nonprofit and
the growth in that kind of wingfor Slingshot in the last couple
of years and decade, what'sbeen that process for you in
(10:21):
placing and positioning, puttingpeople in their place?
Brooke Hodenfiled (10:24):
Yeah, I think the thing that we do so well,
that makes us different, isrelationships at the epicenter
of everything we do, and it's aripple effect, because you can
post and place things as manyplaces as you want to and expect
people to come, but they're notcoming.
(10:53):
So everything is built onrelationship and it's a long
game.
It is a patience andpersistence game that we are
about and, honestly too, justallowing for God's movement in
that and timing to be that way,and being patient with the
candidates we interact with aswell as the organizations we do,
and also just to be able tospeak truth in kind ways, to see
we want to leave bothindividuals and organizations
(11:13):
better than we found them, andso, whatever our intersection,
our paths cross with a leader orwith an organization.
That is our hope and our desire.
We're not cookie cutter, soevery time we work with someone,
we're doing it in a unique andspecial way, based upon what we
know that that person or thatorganization needs.
That we know is going to bedifferent from one to the next,
(11:34):
and I think we take the time tobe curious and learn and ask
those questions so that we cancare for each person, each
organization, each situation ina way that stewards them where
they are but still brings growthand brings them in a direction
of forward movement.
Tim Foot (11:53):
We don't want to just spit ball a ceiling or throw
darts at a dartboard withcandidates.
We're all about you know youtake the slingshot analogy.
We're all about the rightstones in the slingshot when we
actually take that shot, and sowe truly get to know the
organization.
I think that really setsSlingshot apart.
Organizations we work with feellike we're a part of their
(12:15):
staff because in a sense we'readjunct staff for the duration
of the search.
We will not do a search withoutgetting on site and really
getting to know an organization.
We believe prescription withoutdiagnosis is malpractice and so
we're not going to just try anddo a transactional approach.
It's going to be relational andwe are going to get to know
(12:37):
every organization so that whenwe actually present candidates
it's candidates that we reallybelieve can be the right match.
We've got a great proprietarymatch tool that we continue to
develop and hone.
We've got a roadmap for thewhole process.
We've got a proprietary waythat we present candidates when
it comes time to present.
So there's a unique slingshottouch every step of the way.
Heredes (13:02):
Now, tim, tim, I've got the money, I've got the
resources.
I need it.
Next week, send me somebody.
Come on, throw your stones thisway, come on, I can't wait.
Justin (13:10):
You guys have like a VIP list that's like if I'm willing
to pay more, you got those.
Like you're just holding themoff.
They're all stars, they're justrock stars.
Heredes (13:19):
Yes.
Tim Foot (13:25):
How do you handle that ?
One thing you're going to learnabout Slingshot is we tell the
truth, and the truth is you'renot going to have your leader
next week.
Brooke Hodenfiled (13:29):
Or you're going to have a crummy one.
Tim Foot (13:31):
Exactly, and we're also going to tell you that the
people business is a messybusiness.
Staffing is hard work and it'sgoing to get messy, which is why
we invest so much inrelationships at the start of
the process and we believe youwant to partner with Slingshot
because when it does get messywe're going to lean in in the
(13:55):
right, healthy kind of way andalso we're going to determine at
the beginning whether you'reactually ready for search, and
often an organization that sayswe want somebody next week to
throw us somebody, often thoseorganizations aren't actually
ready for the search.
That's a dead giveaway, isn'tit, brooke?
That's a little warning signthat the organization mightn't
actually be ready for a staffsearch, and we're not afraid to
say so and then talk about howwe can get ready.
(14:16):
Would you add something to that, brooke?
Brooke Hodenfiled (14:19):
Yeah, I mean.
What I would say, too, is thatit's equal parts art and science
.
We have to know what we're doing, of course, and we have to have
the infrastructure to supportit, but when an organization
wants to jump and go in withjust send me names, give me
people, we don't care about thesite visit then what that tells
us is the candidate's probablynot going to be well cared for
(14:40):
and step into an environment ofpotentially chaos and lack of
clarity and they are justlooking for a hole to fill.
And that's not the business thatwe want to be about, because,
in good faith, we're workingwith candidates that are
entrusting us to help themsteward their journey and their
transition and their life andtheir family.
So we consider it an honor anda privilege to do that with both
(15:03):
the organizations we serve andthe candidates we serve.
So, relationships critical,getting on sites critical,
because it's in the same way.
You can't speak to something ina secondhand way.
We want to be able to translateculture and their values and
what it felt like to be upamongst the leadership team that
a person would actually sitamongst, versus just kind of in
a robotic, secondhand, vague way.
(15:25):
That's not actually going togive someone a compelling
understanding of an opportunity.
Justin (15:30):
I love that idea that you guys go on site because
that's an expense.
That's a.
It takes time, um, it takesperson like your, you know,
personnel to be there, not justthe time to travel and the
expense to do it.
Um, what is one of the worstexperiences you had when you got
on site, like don't, please,don't say the name, I don't want
(15:50):
you to throw anybody under thebus but like what is an
organization?
You got on site with Brooke andyou were just like I can, you
are not ready to hire anybody.
Brooke Hodenfiled (16:00):
Oh, man, okay , oh, there's so many
interesting ones, okay, we havetime.
Okay, so I'm going to, on behalfof my team, I'm going to tell
two.
That is really intriguing.
One required a dust buster andit was already there in the room
(16:27):
of this place where theyoffered this team member team
member to stay.
Um, because they had a ladybuginfestation, so she had to go
around and just like zap up theladybugs the whole time that she
was on site.
Um.
Another another one, uh, wasrequiring that shoes come off as
soon as you enter their officespace, cause they were really
stewarding what they had createdreally well and that was really
important to them.
Um, and so we loved on thatorganization and sent them
(16:48):
slippers afterwards, because howcool you come, you got to have
your slippers.
I got to go to Honduras for anorganization that we're
currently working with and havebeen working with for a while,
because they were hiring theirdirector of international
operations, now COO, and theyfelt like this person needs to
know what it's like to be onsite in Honduras with the team.
(17:11):
They're required to speakSpanish, like stateside is going
to do nothing as a site visit.
So that was a pretty cool onegoing on site, the worst one and
then I'll let Tim jump inProbably I would say not the
(17:38):
worst one, but just I'll let Timjump in at that table was
basically the pathway of eitherletting go and finding a leader
to take over the helm or theimplosion of a nonprofit, and
ultimately that's what ended uphappening and we got to the
point where we did our best tohelp them work through some of
(17:59):
those things, but at the end ofthe day that organization was
laid to rest and it was reallysad honestly, I find it
interesting, brooke, that thosefirst three examples you gave,
actually those relationships andsearches turned out well, oh,
fantastic.
Tim Foot (18:16):
Yeah, they were unique situations.
They were memorable rather thandisastrous.
Yeah, true, the disastrous onesare where there is a lack of
intentionality.
There, right?
True, yeah, the disastrous onesare where there is lack of
intentionality, there's lack ofplanning.
They don't allow us to speak tothe people that we really need
to speak to, or when we work outthat what we suspected was
(18:37):
high-level dysfunction and we'rewilling to step into high-level
dysfunction any day of the weekWe'll run into a burning
building for the sake ofministry and mission any day of
the week.
We'll run into a burningbuilding for the sake of
ministry and mission any day ofthe week.
When it's toxic.
That's when it's sadlydisappointing because it affects
the team, it affects kingdom.
Impact and toxicity can oftentrack back to the head of an
(18:58):
organization and where we knowthat in most cases the head of
an organization is untouchable.
And I think part of that,Brooke, is where we're seeing
founders who are transitioningout and succession needs to
happen.
Justin (19:12):
That's why we love to do succession coaching, because
then we can really affect thetrajectory of an organization
three like toxic traits that ifyou walk in and and you start
working with an organization youmaybe even show up on on site
and you notice those things it'sa big red flag, if not like a
(19:34):
deal breaker, for you to workwith them, at least something
for you to address.
Are there a couple of thingsthat you guys kind of uh train
your team to look for or be onwatch?
Brooke Hodenfiled (19:45):
I mean, I would say what's really
unfortunate is you don't evenhave to train your team for this
, because that's why it's so.
It's palpable.
I mean, you can, you can feelit, you can see it, you can you,
you really don't have to lookhard for it because it's been
normalized or it's beensquelched and hidden.
The other thing I would say isyou know, we have individual
(20:09):
conversations with team membersthat are going to be supporting
and around the role that we'refinding and identifying and
often when you come back and youfeel like it was less of a site
visit and more of likecounseling and therapy and
pastoring that you're doing, youknow there's some heavy stuff
that's left undealt with andthat that's really weighty um
(20:30):
for for us because we want to,um, just navigate that really
well, and it can be reallydelicate, but that, I would say,
is a surefire sign of oftoxicity.
Um, those kinds of heavy andhard conversations that are just
surface because they're likesomeone anyone cares to hear
about what's actually happeninghere.
Tim Foot (20:51):
Yeah yeah, we hire great team members who are all
coaches, and I think that's partof what sets Slingshot apart
too is all of our searchassociates are coaches and so
they can spot it really quicklyand if it's on Brooke's team,
she'll get a call same day, andif it's high level toxicity,
(21:13):
I'll get a call from Brooke sameday and we'll be processing how
we need to handle this and howwe need to love an organization
well through it.
Often it's vision void.
Often it's lack ofcommunication internally, it's
breakdown of relational equityon the team, it's infighting the
(21:36):
meetings, outside of themeetings, anxiety is not getting
addressed.
All of those things that youwould guess are signposts that
point us to toxic culture.
Justin (21:46):
Sure, those sound too familiar for some of us and I
love that you guys are able toaddress it.
Be honest, tackle that head onbefore adding to the mess and
the toxicity, putting new stuffin there.
That's super cool.
I know I was thinking a lotabout the conversation with you
(22:07):
guys and the opportunity to chatand I was thinking about the
transitional experiences thatnonprofits are having.
Who are like for the longesttime they only staffed from
within.
You know who I'm talking about.
Those organizations are like yougot to be a volunteer here,
because if you're bought in as avolunteer or you've been
(22:30):
participating or donating orserving inside of this
organization, that's where weget our people from and they
never look outside of theorganization for expertise.
That would bring the, you know,elevate the organization to a
different level Cause they uh,for one reason or another, they
believe typically the leadersbelieve that is the purest way
(22:53):
to maintain our mission and tobe true to who we are.
If we let outsiders in, wemight lose our DNA, we might not
be as pure and authenticallywho we are.
How do you break through thatidea of like man?
It's got to be this traditionalpath that we've grown our
healthy organization for 25 or35 years this way, and now here
(23:17):
we are, post pandemic, and it'snot in their best interest.
They don't have that good of amarket to choose from and the
people that they're looking atthey're going.
I don't know if anybody'sreally qualified to help us grow
.
Brooke Hodenfiled (23:31):
Yeah, it's interesting.
We're actually we've had theprivilege of working with
organizations that thinkexclusively external and also
that think exclusively internal,and so what you're describing
is something very familiar forus.
I would say the first thing wewould ask is like is it working?
Do you have what you need withthe talent within your room and
(23:53):
within your structure right now?
And, if not, have youconsidered exploring outside of
the inner circle?
Because it could be that there'sa perspective that's missing or
someone that you don't have atthe table because you've only
considered kind of your ownblood and there can definitely
be pros to that and value inthat but at the same time,
(24:13):
there's also things that couldbe completely overlooked and
missing, that could elevate anorganization to a next level.
So we would definitelychallenge that and just invite
them to consider a differentpathway.
And I think oftentimes what weare doing is translating value
and helping people see talentand value where they haven't
(24:35):
considered or thought aboutlooking at it, because it looks
different now and they're comingfrom different sectors and what
previously classically trainedis what you're looking for.
You might be looking forsomething you don't know you're
looking for, but if no onepushes back and no one asks the
question, then you don't know toconsider that either.
Tim Foot (24:56):
An important question at the start of the hiring
process is the same question atthe start of any kind of
strategic movement processforward in an organization, and
that is who are we?
Because identity determinesfunction, identity determines
the growth of your team.
It's asking the right questions, because the quality of your
questions determine the power ofyour mission.
(25:17):
And so when you ask who you are, then you realize how well you
know yourselves.
Then you start asking culturequestions.
Then you start asking culturequestions, and when you start
asking culture questions, youstart realizing either we need
to perpetuate the good stuffthat's happening here or we need
to grow our culture in a better, healthier direction.
(25:39):
And the answer to those twoquestions are whether you
continue to promote internallyor hire within your network, or
whether you hire on the outside.
And so many organizations needto expand their culture and grow
it and therefore they need tolook outside of the pools
they're used to fishing in.
And so often our teams canbecome an echo chamber.
(26:01):
It's people that all think thesame way that we do, and that's
no way to grow.
And so we can just piggybackingon what Brooke was saying we
can come in and ask thoseexpanding questions that cause
you to go.
Oh yeah, we need somebody fromthe outside.
Or sometimes we'll go into anorganization and say you're in a
(26:22):
really healthy spot right nowand I'm not sure you've seen but
that person.
You're going to lose them ifyou don't give them a growth
opportunity, and so let us helpyou know how to help them step
up into a role that's going tobe catalytic for the future of
this organization, but also fortheir leadership, and will help
them stay on board.
Justin (26:41):
That's where the coaching really is necessary,
right, that's where the coachingreally is necessary, right?
Heredes (26:45):
Let me ask for our listeners.
It's 30% nonprofit businessleaders, 30%.
Churches, 30%, you knowChristian faith-based.
You know businesses that mayhave never engaged with a search
, you know group or hired fromthe outside To them.
It's a risk To them, it'slooking, it's expensive, it's
(27:07):
expensive, it's not comfortable.
What would you tell them?
And sharing a little bit ofwhat you just shared and how do
you measure success?
How do I know?
How do you guarantee it's likeTim Brooke, I just want to know
If I'm going to put myself outthere and put my baby out here,
if I may, and we've got a goodthing going.
(27:30):
What's success?
How do you measure that?
How do you track that?
And how would you guarantee tosomebody looking or maybe
listening right now who's likeconsidering it, but just not
sure, not yet.
Brooke Hodenfiled (27:38):
Yeah, I'll jump in on the like.
Why would you consider using asearch organization?
Like us, I think one of thefirst things that we find often
working with boards and whoeverit is that's stewarding this
search process.
Oftentimes they don't have thetime.
Their time is better spentmoving the mission forward,
(27:59):
leading an organization, leadinga board, and they simply don't
have the time to do it.
Secondly is that they may nothave access to the right kind of
leaders or even know where tostart to your question earlier
inside, outside one or the other, maybe a combination of both,
they don't have the expertise orthey're too close to it to be
able to really have an unbiasedviewpoint of how best you might
(28:23):
move forward.
And so, having a different setof eyes that can kind of come
from a global perspective andalso have just a pulse on what's
happening in the talent marketand how do you become
competitive, how are you makingthis the most compelling
opportunity possible?
And walking alongside anorganization and ask those
really important questions toget them thinking more so about
(28:47):
the quality of the leader andthe quality of the role, versus
just filling the role with aperson.
I mean all the ancillaryimportant things that really are
what are going to make a leaderstay and not and retain that
person so they can do it ontheir own and maybe not ask
those questions.
But it could be that in sixmonths or however many long,
(29:08):
it's not done in a way that theperson's going to stick around
and stay and ultimately you'reback at square one.
You've lost your time, you'velost your mission momentum and
you don't have a guide or atrusted partner to help you
navigate that road ahead.
So that's a common conversationwe have for sure.
Tim Foot (29:29):
Hiring is harder than it's ever been.
I mean, even pre-pandemic worldwith social media, it is just
harder than it's ever been.
It's not like just calling up abunch of friends.
And your time, your leadership,time and energy is your
greatest commodity, and so thehours you spend working search,
(29:51):
when it's something that a grouplike us lives and breathes all
the time, the hours you actuallyexpend doing something that
you're not used to doing all thetime, will end up costing you
more than whatever you'll everpay a search group.
So that is so, so important totake that into account.
How do we measure success?
I mean we started this what 17years ago in the church space,
(30:14):
when it wasn't happening in thechurch space because of a stat
that we were concerned about andthat is ministry people were
staying less than two years andthat was really, really
concerning.
We believe our process setsleaders up for five years and
beyond, and then to branch outand now be growing so rapidly in
the nonprofit world and to beable to scale what we learned in
(30:38):
ministry organizations tofaith-focused nonprofits and
even some faith-focusedfor-profits, like you guys do,
has been so great to see how ourrelational approach can really
affect, move Mission Forward.
So to see leaders stay at anorganization is probably the
biggest measure of success.
(30:59):
Now, yes, we do have aguarantee, like if a life event
happens or a family doesn't makea move or kids struggle, we'll
re-engage in under 12 months andeven beyond that.
We want each organization wework with to be a raving
slingshot fan.
So we're going to do the rightthing.
But also we look deeper at thescience of it.
Brooke talked about the art andthe science, but the science of
(31:21):
it is when we look at a leaderand we come back and we stay
connected to an organization,which is always our hope that
we'll be a trusted partner whenit comes to the people side of
the organization.
But is that leader bringingimmediate chemistry to that
organization?
Is there a sense of chemistrythat's moving mission and vision
(31:43):
and the work forward?
Is there increased team healthwith that person being on that
team?
Is there an increased level ofteam health?
For us, that's what we want tobe known as the healthy team
people, and so we're all aboutfinding the right person to help
the team be healthy.
Is that person providing a highindividual contribution?
So is their individualcontribution strong to the
(32:04):
organization.
We love it when organizationssaid you placed John or Sally
and they are doing an amazingjob.
I mean, it was immediatelyevident to us, which is why we
have our first 90-day coachingresource that we provide with
each search as well, so the newleader on the team can connect
(32:24):
well with their supervisor orthe board or whatever that
reporting relationship is.
Is there increased ministrymomentum, organizational
momentum?
Is it moving the organizationforward faster?
And then is there increasedorganizational capacity?
We want a person to come onboard, learn that organization
quickly, so there's greater ROIsooner, there's greater
(32:48):
organizational capacity sooner.
So those are some of the thingsthat the science side of it
that we'll look at.
Yeah.
Heredes (32:55):
Tim, I want to squash this rumor really quick.
You talked about the first 90days and the coaching and word
on the street.
Now I've verified the health,the people you've placed, our
friends, our colleagues, ourpeers for the last 17 years
Rumor.
The word on the street is thatthere are no job descriptions,
or you guys wait till 90 days,six months, to then write a job
(33:15):
description.
Tell us more about this.
It's a founder mentality or wewouldn't get hired.
Tim Foot (33:20):
That's not true at all .
Eridis, one of our co-founders,who's a real creative thinker.
He said I wish that you didn'thave to create a job description
until a leader was in the rolefor six months.
His thinking behind that isgenius, because we've all heard
the saying get the right personon the bus and we will say, when
(33:41):
we're in the strategic planningprocess for a search, we will
say personalities will drivesearches, meaning we can have
the best plan in the world, likeMike Tyson said.
Right, and we get into a search,we start connecting with
personalities that we havechemistry with and the job
description that we thought wewere hiring might shift a little
(34:02):
.
We were hiring might shift alittle.
So the thought behind that,which one of our co-founders,
stan, said one time, is hey, ifwe could get the right person.
We'll often say, hey, thismight be the person you thought
you wanted, but this is theperson you want on your team.
Sometimes we'll go out and do asearch for a specific leader.
We'll end up hiring two people,sometimes even three people or
even four people.
(34:22):
I can think of an organization,right, brooke, that we started
with one and then we ended uphiring four people.
It was obviously a biggerorganization but, it was because
we started seeing people thatthey wanted on their team and
they were creating a role forthose people.
Now organizations that thinkthat creatively can say, yes, I
want that person on the team andthis is the rough role I want
(34:44):
them to perform on our team.
But that's going to evolve inthe first six or 12 months
during their time.
Also, I would say Eris, to yourpoint.
Great leaders will not be doingthe same job in two to five
years, either at yourorganization or at some other
organization.
Heredes (35:04):
One more time.
One more time for the cheapseats.
A little louder.
Tim Foot (35:08):
Great leaders will not always be doing the same job in
two years or five years' time.
You get to decide whetherthat's on your team or off your
team.
Heredes (35:17):
Wow, we'll be right back after this break.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you, wow, that'sfantastic man that'll preach.
Thank you, wow, that's that.
That's that's man that that'llpreach.
That'll preach to him, and I'msure you guys see that firsthand
, front row right.
All the organizations.
Tim Foot (35:32):
In our own organization, sure.
Heredes (35:35):
Wow, yeah, go ahead.
Brooke Hodenfiled (35:38):
I say I'll just piggyback on that, because
I would say that is the mostcommon reason.
We talk to people that areconsidering a jump that never
would have guessed or expected.
Like they love the work they do, they love the mission, they
will say I thought I was goingto ride off into the sunset here
at this organization and it'sbecause they are not seen or
(35:59):
heard or invested in or listenedto or given an opportunity, to
Tim's point, to flourish.
And a high-capacity leader isnot going to just stay put.
They want to grow, they want tohave opportunities to be
developed and move upward in anorganization to bring more
impact.
And if you don't take note ofthose people, it's true They'll
(36:21):
find their way into a placewhere they can offer up those
things and be seen for that.
Heredes (36:28):
Brooke, let me ask you about, in the nonprofit sector,
what's the fundamentaldifference between, you know,
staffing for nonprofit and thenstaffing for the for-profit
sector.
If somebody's looking and it'slike, well, it's the same
difference, right?
People are people, tell us alittle bit, and it's like, well,
it's the same difference, right?
Brooke Hodenfiled (36:46):
People are.
People Tell us a little bit,yeah, well, and it's interesting
because part of my earlyrecruiting days was in health
care and staffing and healthcare organizations and working
with hospitals.
And it is interesting becausethere is a very stark difference
, because oftentimes a nonprofitleader or someone that's
looking to have a fulfilling,thriving, ministry-filled career
(37:07):
, it's often because there'ssomething within them, within
their identity, that speaks tothe calling or the mission of
the organization and they feeldrawn and compelled toward that
organization and even at thestake of maybe sacrificing some
things to take an opportunity ora role, because they feel so
fulfilled by the work thatthey're doing that their
(37:29):
identity, even their personalvalues maybe, are tied up in the
work that they do.
So they're willing to investmore, do more in ways that I
never saw, to the same level ordegree in the for-profit sector.
And you can be passionate, youcan be all in in a for-profit
world.
I'm not saying one is betterthan the other, it's wherever
God's called you you can do goodwork.
(37:50):
But I feel like there's aninteresting, sometimes in an
unhealthy way, your identity canbe wrapped up in a mission and
you forsake things because youcare so much and you have a
bleeding heart or so invested inthe work that you're doing, so
that, in my mind, is one of thegreatest distinctions I
(38:12):
personally have seen, at least.
Tim Foot (38:14):
That's really good.
Often we'll need to translatefor boards of nonprofits, and
often in the church space too,that are marketplace leaders,
which is one of the things Ilove about the work we get to do
, because we work with so manydifferent people doing
interesting jobs that sit onboards.
But we'll need to contextualizethe difference between
(38:35):
faith-based search whether it befor-profit or non-profit, or
church as opposed to secularmarketplace search, because
usually you'll only encounterexclusive, retained search in
the faith-based space.
In marketplace you'll encounterlots of contingency search,
(38:56):
which is where you have multipleorganisations throwing the
darts, the dartboard, you know,in the healthcare industry or
the accountancy industry orbuilding, whereas in faith
sector it requires so muchdeeper work, in a sense because
of theological alignmentalignment with the mission
(39:17):
calling, which is that wholespiritual piece that comes with
it that we love so much aboutthe work we do.
There's so many components tofaith-based search or faith
focused search that isn't therein marketplace, which is why you
actually partner with oneorganization to go the journey
with you and what we see whenthat goes well and when they're
(39:37):
open to that partnership, isthat partnership continues, it
becomes a trusted partnershipand you end up really journeying
with an organization andthere's nothing better, right,
brooke?
Yeah.
Justin (39:50):
I was curious what you guys thought about the
transition to people hiringteams like fractionally versus
doing a full-time hire throughyou.
So it's like again and this islike, don't hold back any
punches for our sake of being afractional team that people can
hire for marketing.
(40:11):
But what like?
What do you guys say?
What are the differencesbetween somebody who should hire
like shouldn't spend the money?
You know, oftentimes, budgetwise, you might be looking at
hiring a, an agency, for thesame prices, bringing on a staff
, or at least that's what thesalaries look like.
You don't think about all themanagement expenses and
everything else it goes,training and all that.
(40:32):
But how do you guys decipherthat?
And what do you see the good,the bad of those fractional
services for teams that aregrowing, for organizations that
are growing?
Brooke, as you're looking, youknow, obviously I think if
someone's asking you to helpfind somebody, you're not going
to turn that down and be like,no, you should just hire a
(40:54):
fractional service.
Brooke Hodenfiled (40:57):
It's.
It's interesting because Ithink that the ways that we can
fill a void are numerous now.
I mean there's outsourcing,there's internal, there's
fractional, there's full-time,there's taking a role and
splitting it into two part-timeroles and you get two people and
the creativity and the waysthat you can approach that I
(41:19):
think should be explored,because it's never a one size
fits all, you know, kind ofscenario.
So I think it goes back toasking the question, like what
Tim was saying earlier who arewe and what are we trying to
accomplish here?
What's, what's our goal in thishire?
Is it bringing outsideperspective and really hoping to
(41:40):
deepen our culture?
Is it a we're missing?
We have a skill gap that iscompletely void and we need an
actual, really specific skillset.
Is it we're missing?
We have a skill gap that iscompletely void and we need an
actual, really specific skillset.
Is it a generalist, in a waythat we're looking for, you know
, someone to lead and oversee ateam?
So I think it goes back to kindof building blocks where what
do you need and then what arethe options that you have
(42:01):
budget-wise, even oversight,like do you have the right kind
of leaders in place that aregoing to be able to manage a
contracted kind of relationshiplike that?
What's the terms?
What's the length?
Do you need an actual person?
Because there's toxic or healthrelated issues and bringing an
outsider into the mix is notgoing to serve that purpose.
Well, I think there's a lot ofother questions that need to be
(42:23):
asked.
Yeah, sometimes it's simplybudgetary.
I mean, we have organizationsthat are looking for a unicorn
with spots that twirls andthey'll want to pay $3 an hour
for that individual and we'll behonest, we understand what the
needs are, but you're not goingto be able to attract that level
of talent and, in good faith,we can't find someone that is
(42:45):
going to be willing to entertainthat kind of compensation
structure.
So we understand the financiallimitations are real.
We get that.
We are sorry and grieve.
Our hearts are heavy for that,but you've got to be at a place
where you can afford to attractand retain a talent and to do
(43:05):
that.
It may look like a fractional,because that's simply what your
budget allows for a season andthat's okay.
There's not a good or bad, Ithink, in that.
It's just exploring all youroptions.
Justin (43:16):
Where have you seen like a fractional beat work good for
people and where have you seenit work bad, like?
What do you think are like thebad outcomes with it?
But also what have you seengood?
Tim Foot (43:30):
comes with it.
But also, what are you seeinggood?
While Brooke's thinking aboutthat, I would also add that you
need to manage that fractionalemployment really, really well,
otherwise you're just throwingaway money.
I mean, in a sense, hiringSwingshot just like hiring you
guys is a fractional option too.
We have organizations that havean HR department that realize
(43:51):
when it's appropriate to come tous, and we know what the
specific roles are, ourspecialty and we will be very
honest about it, and so,likewise, you might have a
marketing department in aministry or organization,
(44:11):
marketing department in aministry or organization and you
have somebody there that isactually managing the
outsourcing of certain services.
So I would say that's where wesee it work.
Best is when there is somebodywho knows how to appropriately
manage fractional employment andknows when it's appropriate to
reach out for that fractionalwork.
But, as Brooke said too, itmight be a much smaller
(44:34):
organization that isn't ready tohire the role yet.
And how do you know?
You're not ready, we'll tellyou.
And also you'll have a salaryrange that limits the kind of
candidate that you're able toget, and if you have a lower
salary range in this environmentcan't get the right candidate,
(44:55):
it's not going to be a healthyhire and we'll say to you what
you should do is go to a grouplike Verse, who are going to
help you, and they will help youscale with what they provide
and then you're going to beready to go for that full-time
employee that's going to be avalued member of your team that
you can do life with, that canlive out the vision and mission.
Justin (45:16):
Yeah, I do love that, Tim, because I've seen that over
and over again.
When there's not somebody whocan manage the outsourced
fractional team member, well,it's very hard for the
fractional person to bring themost amount of value because
they're not getting the rightinformation If they're not being
managed, they're not able tofocus on the right priorities
(45:38):
because they're not gettingaccess to the decision makers or
the priorities of theorganization.
And when you have somebody good, we see that success always
elevates the manager that's onsite.
And so we say over and overagain when we're talking to a
new client if you have somebodyon site who is teachable, is
willing to work and isn'tthreatened by us being there, it
(46:01):
works really, really well forus.
And I could totally see thatbeing the case with you guys in
any HR department.
that isn't threatened by yourexpertise, whether it's doing
coaching or staffing.
Brooke Hodenfiled (46:19):
Going back to your question earlier, I think
where the kind of roles thatI've seen, where fractionals
worked out well is in thefinance and accounting space out
well is in the finance andaccounting space, where I would
say it's there is a function gapand so someone needs to come in
(46:40):
with a very specializedexpertise and is given, to your
point, all the information theyneed and they're set up for
success.
There's clarity in their role,there's a timeline associated,
there's oversight.
That's where I see it workingreally well.
Or also you can think of in thechurch space like an
intentional interim If there issomeone that's needed to get the
organization to a point ofhealth before you can bring in
the next leader.
That may be a C-suite levelrole.
(47:02):
It may be someone that's at thehelm, that is able to step in
in a way to shepherd or stewardwhatever healing needs to happen
before the next leader comes.
I've also seen that work reallywell.
Again with the timeline, veryclear goals and specifics as to
how that person is going toengage and that person is set up
where those that are advocatingfor this person to come in
(47:24):
they're going to be receivedwell received.
And if not, then that's going tobe an uphill battle for that
person that's coming in tosteward that season.
But those are just the twoscenarios I thought of when you
asked that question.
Justin (47:40):
I love the intentional interim.
That is not an option thatenough people think through,
because oftentimes things aresuch a mess that the next, the
predecessor, has so much cleanupwork to do and they have to do
it so slowly if they're in itfor the long haul.
But if you're intentionally likean interim, you can just go in
and take all the hits.
(48:01):
You could be thrown under thebus because you know I'm
supposed to be here for a year.
It's probably going to be amessy year, and then I'm going
to clean it up and leave thisorganization healthy enough for
someone long-term to stay here,and it's such a good strategic
move.
I think more organizations, ifthey had access to you guys
where they knew they could bringsomebody in that was willing to
(48:21):
get run over like that or helpclean up the mess.
And I'm sure you guys have alot of other strategies for when
that's the right time, whenthat's the right thing to do,
and I'm sure you guys have a lotof other strategies for when
that's the right thing to do.
But I've seen that work so manytimes that I love that.
Tim Foot (48:34):
Yeah, we will absolutely advise if an
intentional interim is needed,and we have partners too, that
we can also recommend to come inand serve that purpose.
That's what you'll learn aboutpartnering with Slingshot, which
is why it's always worth havinga conversation with us.
We're going to tell you thetruth.
The last thing we want to do isembark on a search journey when
(48:57):
it's not the right time.
Heredes (49:00):
Tell us this.
We're going a little over time.
So thank you for your time.
We'll wrap it up here.
So we're having a good time.
I know we're having a good time.
Tim Foot (49:07):
We're having a great time.
Heredes (49:08):
We are Okay.
A few more minutes here.
Two things.
And where has it been withreaching organizations
nationwide?
Where are the challenges?
Where are the gaps?
Where are the areas, andgeographically speaking, that
are difficult?
Does the data show somewhere?
Tim Foot (49:31):
Actually I think, brooke, it would be a good thing
to talk here because there's anobvious answer to your question
, eridis.
Like where cost of living ishigh, it's difficult, it's
really difficult.
Also, you know, when there'snot mountains or coastline, it
can sometimes be a challenge aswell, because people are very
particular about where they wantto be and likewise where they
want to be, and likewise peoplemight want to be near the
(49:53):
coastline or near the mountains.
If their family is living inIowa, they want to be in Iowa.
You know what I mean, and soyou need to work out, okay, how
can we make provisions for themto visit their family three
times a year, to get really,really creative about salary
package.
But I think now is a reallygood time to talk, brooke, about
remote and how that's becomesuch a huge issue in nonprofit
(50:16):
world.
Brooke Hodenfiled (50:18):
Yeah, that's yeah.
My mind first went to what youjust said cost of living and
then I would say a closecompetitor to that, to geography
is how you do work.
That is the most asked, themost needed to be clarified in
terms of candidate conversations, because people will forego
salary, they will forego a lotof things, if how the
(50:41):
organization works fits theirlifestyle, and I've I've been
kind of using this verbiage ofwork-life integration versus
balance, because everything isso connected and interwoven
anymore and our lives are soentangled.
So to find something thatintegrates into who you are,
what you care about, in a waythat allows you to do the work
(51:03):
you feel like you're called todo in a way that also serves all
aspects of your life, that iswhat people are seeking right
now.
So remote opportunities could bethat it could be the case.
It could be a hybrid situationwith a high degree of
flexibility.
Rigidity is also something thatpeople are turned off by.
If you're an eight to five, youcan come in at 830 and do 830
(51:30):
to 430.
People's noses are in the airabout that kind of dynamic too,
because they want flexibilityand they want to be able to
ensure that their work servesthe other aspects of their life
(51:52):
and it's a competition, thechallenges for people that are
trying to attract talent,because oftentimes, if you're
not in a situation where you canoffer flexibility or come up
with creative solutions, you'reup against a remote and a remote
seeking talent workforce.
Tim Foot (52:03):
In saying that we will take on five days a week in the
office in the Bay Area.
I mean we'll take on thosesearches we just realized oh,
okay, oh, we have all of them.
Yeah, there's going to be anextra level of complexity and
challenge and we're going totell you what that's going to be
straight up.
But we'll also learn from you,as we get to know you, what the
compelling story is about, whyyou want that person in the
(52:26):
office five days a week in theBay Area.
Brooke Hodenfiled (52:33):
Or if you're a rescue mission and you're
doing work at the rescue mission, it doesn't make sense for your
director of programs to behalfway across the country.
Like there's certain thingsthat it makes sense, and so
that's part of it, too ishelping us understand why you've
chosen this framework for howyou do work, and oftentimes it
makes a lot of sense.
It's just so that we cantranslate that well and find the
right person that's drawn tothat kind of work too.
Justin (52:55):
That's really good.
I love it yeah.
Heredes (52:57):
No, that answers.
The last one was just with thedata and access you guys have
around the country hundreds oforganizations, ministries, tech.
How is the craze of AI?
And we've talked about this.
It feels like it's buzz worthy,but buzz.
You know tech and in theworkplace we talked about remote
or that's that plays a rolewhat are you guys seeing?
(53:18):
What are trends, what arethings to to advise our
listeners or warn our listenerson?
Tim Foot (53:24):
AI is the buzz.
You want to be asking us abouthow we're using it in the search
process, but you also want toask how personalized that
process is, because that's whyyou're calling us.
I mean, there's going to bepeople that think they can do
search now on their own becauseof AI, and there's so much
beyond what that can provide.
(53:46):
It's a list of names.
Again, we're not about justthrowing the darts at the dart
ball or spitballing the ceiling.
We're about putting the rightstones in the slingshot, and
that means AI can.
Yeah, I heard somebody describeAI as a great intern.
So the intern goes away anddoes the work, brings the work
(54:06):
back, you finesse the work.
It's going back to what Brookesaid about art versus science.
There's science, lots ofscience.
Science is attempting to takeover the universe right now.
We need to balance it with art,and art comes from real
thinking, feeling, interacting,relational people.
Brooke Hodenfiled (54:29):
And I'll just piggyback on.
It's been interesting too justseeing some of the applications,
cover letters come through,even a response, to share a
little bit about what work andfaith looks like for you.
We can tell the AI response.
I mean, it does not replace thehuman and the authenticity.
(54:51):
We can sniff it out, I mean,and it's becoming increasingly
more common where we see that,and so it just won't replace it.
I think you can use it andwield its powers for good, and
you should.
If you turn away and put yournose in the air up against it.
I think that also is not good,because there are some great
(55:13):
assets that you can have andglean from it, but also it
doesn't replace everything andit won't ever, I don't think.
Justin (55:21):
Yeah, people can tell H.
That's why I still allow thetypos in my posts.
Nobody is questioning if AIdoes my posts.
Yes, that is a fact, you alwaysare telling me that I need to
fix the typos and stuff, but Ithink it makes me more human.
Heredes (55:35):
All art, no science, over here.
Tim Foot (55:37):
Whatever makes you feel better right?
Heredes (55:40):
Yes, exactly.
Justin (55:41):
It would feel cooler if I could say it like no ought the
way, no ought.
Heredes (55:46):
I didn't know what you were saying.
Justin (55:49):
I've been holding off on it the whole time.
Heredes (55:51):
I'm so sorry guys, seriously so much gold, so much
science and ought here todaythank you for being art, art and
science.
It sounds so much cooler whenyou use your guys seriously
thank you for being greatfriends and partners over the
(56:11):
years and much success to youguys.
It's in the fruit and we'veseen it and we commend you guys.
But thanks for the wisdom youbrought to our listeners today
and we'll put all the links onall the sites you guys are easy
to get a hold of.
But what's the best way for aquick conversation to find out
if it, like this, is the rightpath and this is what they
should consider?
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:31):
Yeah, Slingshotgrouporg is our website
.
Heredes (56:35):
All there.
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:36):
Yeah, all there.
And I would say to um find meon LinkedIn, um, and that
Burkhaudna field.
I love to connect with peoplethrough LinkedIn, so that would
be another place to um as well.
Heredes (56:49):
Love it.
Yes, thank you guys so much.
Justin (56:51):
Yeah, thanks for all that you guys are doing for
nonprofits.
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:54):
And you guys too.
We love you.
Yes, same Seriously.
Outro (56:58):
Thanks again for listening to the Nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites arenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe, and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email at
podcastatversecreativecom.
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Renaissance, where we
help nonprofit leaders gofurther and grow faster.
I'm one of your co-hosts, colin, and in this episode, h and
Justin are joined by specialguests Tim Foote and Brooke
Hodnafield, a slingshot groupwho are seasoned experts in
nonprofit staffing andorganizational growth.
In today's episode, we'rediving into the topics of talent
(00:31):
retention, innovative hiringpractices, post-pandemic and how
strategic staffing canrevolutionize nonprofit
operations.
I hope that you're ready for aninsightful discussion on
building resilient teams thatdrive mission success.
Let's go and let's grow.
Justin (00:49):
I would absolutely love to know how Brooke came on and
how she connected with you guys.
Tim Foot (00:55):
Yeah.
Justin (00:55):
Come on.
Tim Foot (00:55):
Brooke, that's a story .
Brooke Hodenfiled (00:58):
Okay, so my journey to Slingshot in a in a
succinct form, Um, so mybackground is just like a
melting pot of all thesedifferent things and my,
honestly, my life's journey andmoving around and my story is a
melting pot, Even mydenominational journey, my faith
journey, um also represents allthose things.
(01:21):
And so, um, I had been workingat a nonprofit.
I was doing strategicpartnerships and volunteer
management and training and youknow all the things in nonprofit
world that starts with one joband then you end up with like 10
.
I was doing that and it wassupposed to be part time and I
was definitely not working parttime kind of had the crash and
(01:42):
burn moment.
I had a kindergartner that wassupposed to be off the bus to
grandma.
I had scheduled grandma on thewrong day, so I had a
kindergartner that was ridingaround the bus like alone and
the school called and they hadto take him back to school which
horrible.
And I was across town.
I know it was really bad.
So I get the call that Tyson issitting back at school and I
(02:05):
have to go pick him up, and soI'm I'm like crying on the way
there because I'm like thewheels have fallen off.
I've taken on more than I canchew, transitioned away, took a,
took a break, ended up doingsome stuff at my church and
there was this great gospelcentered life design so life
planning type stuff, if you'refamiliar with that, but just
like gospel centered.
So life planning type stuff, ifyou're familiar with that, but
(02:26):
just like gospel centered.
One of the co-creators happenedto be a friend of Slingshot and
said hey, you know, some ofwhat we do here with life
planning with people would beamazing to do as people are
transitioning and as someone'sconsidering to make a career
(02:46):
jump or just exploring what'snext sector to sector or just
what's next on their journey oflife.
So we kind of put together thisidea, this kind of a workshop
of sorts, to help peoplenavigate transition using some
of these tools and some of thethings I've been trained on, and
I honestly had no idea who theslingshot people were.
I'm like, oh, that's a coolname, I like yellow and that's
good, and so truthfully, builtout this thing and I'm like,
(03:07):
sure, let's go talk to aboutthis, this thing, to these
people and let's go out toIrvine.
It sounds awesome.
And so in the in the 11th hourit ended up that the person that
was going to go with me was notable to go and they're like you
got this.
Just you go talk to the people.
You're passionate about thisthing, and definitely was.
So I show up in Irvine and I getto meet the co-founders of
(03:30):
Slingshot and our COO who'scurrently our COO, and other
higher ups at Slingshot andimmediately I felt at peace and
just loved the way that thesepeople showed up.
It was.
They were interactive, theywere relational, they cared
first about like who I wasbefore, even what I was there to
do and talk to them about.
And my keynote presentation wasshowing my presenter notes.
(03:54):
I could, for the life of me,not figure out in that moment
how to take the presenter notesoff and thankfully, like you
know, they rolled with it.
They're like it's all good,this stuff happens.
So long story short, the thingthat I came to share and our
idea wasn't the right thing forthe moment, but I could not
shake how I felt and the culturethat just totally drew me in.
(04:17):
And I recognize I have allthese weird pieces in my journey
of church and nonprofit andfor-profit and recruiting and
ministry and just a big mix ofstuff and it just all in this
moment was like came together,that God had equipped and
designed me to step into thisrole and honestly help other
people do the same thing withall their weird pieces that they
(04:38):
have.
That sometimes doesn't makesense until someone else can see
it.
So that's my story.
Tim Foot (04:45):
It's a great story, Brooke.
One of the things I want to addto that is our favorite piece of
the work that we get to do iswhen the mission of the leader
matches and aligns with themission of the organization in
transitional seasons, even whenyou don't realize you're in a
transitional season, and the wayBrooke embodies our culture and
(05:07):
did on that day and we justknew we needed Brooke on our
team, and then how that shows upin our nonprofit division of
Slingshot is our unfairadvantage, I think, in the
staffing and culture andstrategy space, coaching space
in nonprofit.
So we just love all that Brookeand her team brings.
(05:29):
I don't even remember you notbeing able to turn off your
presenter notes, brooke.
Brooke Hodenfiled (05:35):
Oh, it was real.
I remember it.
I totally remember it.
I love that.
Heredes (05:42):
And were you wearing yellow?
Were you on brand from day one?
Brooke Hodenfiled (05:47):
No, I wasn't.
I bet I still have those pants.
I remember the pants I wore.
They were not yellow.
That would have been a littletoo bold, I think.
Tim Foot (05:54):
Looking at team knows I prefer slingshot green to
slingshot yellow right, yeah,it's true, there's a divide,
there's a divide Although.
I do have yellow over myshoulder there, so We'll put a
pull out to our listeners.
Heredes (06:12):
But, guys, since I love it that you guys, what you do
is you know who you are you'vebuilt a remarkable team and, uh,
you are remarkable folks.
Ever since I've met thefounders, years and years ago,
it feels like a decade plus howlong, how long has slingshot
been?
Um, well, putting people intheir place 17 years, now 17
years, I think 17.
Tim Foot (06:25):
So yeah, I'm, I'm in a .
Yeah, I'm in my gosh.
I've got to do all the numbers13th year.
But I, when I came on, we werejust a handful of.
There was probably five of usand we were a handful of
staffing and coachingengagements.
When Brooke joined us, I thinkwe were probably half the size,
maybe a little bit more, than weare now.
Brooke Hodenfiled (06:45):
Like 35, 40 people Amazing.
Tim Foot (06:47):
Now there's 65 of us around the country and we get to
engage with between 300 and 400organizations a year, so there
is never a dull moment over atSlingshot Friends.
Heredes (06:57):
I love it.
Tim Foot (06:58):
There's all kinds of variety, given that we do so
much work across ministryorganizations, nonprofit in
church.
Heredes (07:07):
But you know, both Justin and I have, you know,
seen the fruit of that, becausewe get to work with the same
churches that either folks thatyou've put in place and building
those teams.
We get to engage with themcreatively, you know, on the
marketing side, on the video,film, design, all of the above.
Tell us this, and then Justin'sgoing to jump in here because
we're going to put you guys onthe hot seat today because a lot
of great content out there youguys have shared great podcasts,
(07:30):
great resources for churchesthat we've seen.
But today we're going to kindof flip the script on you guys a
little bit, just for fun, justto kind of little—we're taping
this in the year of electionhere.
Collin (07:40):
Let's go yeah no-transcript.
Brooke Hodenfiled (08:10):
Yeah, I mean I'll speak to the nonprofit
world, which is the world that Ilive and breathe on the daily.
I would say the first one isjust talents on the move.
There is such a churn that'sgoing on everywhere, across
every space and everyorganization.
It feels that that is true,every space and every
organization.
It feels that that is true Evenmore so if you double click on
that.
I think the churn is real inthe development arena.
If you're a fundraiser, if youare trying to hire a fundraiser,
(08:35):
you are experiencing this, andthe longevity and tenure of a
fundraising professional hasdecreased over time, even from
18 months to 16 months, beingthe average in the last year.
So it's going in the oppositedirection, which is really
wreaking havoc, I think, onnonprofit organizations because
they can't keep developmentprofessionals, and development
(08:57):
professionals have a lot ofoptions right now.
So that's one of the firstthings that comes to mind for me
.
Tim Foot (09:03):
I would add that it's a candidate's market now.
It used to be pre-pandemic thatyou'd get a ton of applications
and you'd be able to pick andchoose.
But now, with all the kind ofremote work opportunities and
contract work opportunities thathave grown out of the pandemic,
(09:23):
I think people have just becomemore innovative in how they
staff.
We really need to tell acompelling story and it's
usually necessary for a thirdparty to tell that for an
organization as to why a personwould want to be a part of the
mission and vision and story ofa given nonprofit or ministry
organization.
(09:44):
So I'd say that's a big thingthat's changed.
It's a candidate's market andas much as you think you're
interviewing for your new leader, your new leader or group of
candidates are absolutelyinterviewing you.
Heredes (09:58):
That's good.
What is the slingshot process?
Is there something you guyshave coined, patented, figured
out this?
Is it the secret sauce, thesilver lining?
What's the process?
And matching, and specificallyBrooke, with the nonprofit and
the growth in that kind of wingfor Slingshot in the last couple
of years and decade, what'sbeen that process for you in
(10:21):
placing and positioning, puttingpeople in their place?
Brooke Hodenfiled (10:24):
Yeah, I think the thing that we do so well,
that makes us different, isrelationships at the epicenter
of everything we do, and it's aripple effect, because you can
post and place things as manyplaces as you want to and expect
people to come, but they're notcoming.
(10:53):
So everything is built onrelationship and it's a long
game.
It is a patience andpersistence game that we are
about and, honestly too, justallowing for God's movement in
that and timing to be that way,and being patient with the
candidates we interact with aswell as the organizations we do,
and also just to be able tospeak truth in kind ways, to see
we want to leave bothindividuals and organizations
(11:13):
better than we found them, andso, whatever our intersection,
our paths cross with a leader orwith an organization.
That is our hope and our desire.
We're not cookie cutter, soevery time we work with someone,
we're doing it in a unique andspecial way, based upon what we
know that that person or thatorganization needs.
That we know is going to bedifferent from one to the next,
(11:34):
and I think we take the time tobe curious and learn and ask
those questions so that we cancare for each person, each
organization, each situation ina way that stewards them where
they are but still brings growthand brings them in a direction
of forward movement.
Tim Foot (11:53):
We don't want to just spit ball a ceiling or throw
darts at a dartboard withcandidates.
We're all about you know youtake the slingshot analogy.
We're all about the rightstones in the slingshot when we
actually take that shot, and sowe truly get to know the
organization.
I think that really setsSlingshot apart.
Organizations we work with feellike we're a part of their
(12:15):
staff because in a sense we'readjunct staff for the duration
of the search.
We will not do a search withoutgetting on site and really
getting to know an organization.
We believe prescription withoutdiagnosis is malpractice and so
we're not going to just try anddo a transactional approach.
It's going to be relational andwe are going to get to know
(12:37):
every organization so that whenwe actually present candidates
it's candidates that we reallybelieve can be the right match.
We've got a great proprietarymatch tool that we continue to
develop and hone.
We've got a roadmap for thewhole process.
We've got a proprietary waythat we present candidates when
it comes time to present.
So there's a unique slingshottouch every step of the way.
Heredes (13:02):
Now, tim, tim, I've got the money, I've got the
resources.
I need it.
Next week, send me somebody.
Come on, throw your stones thisway, come on, I can't wait.
Justin (13:10):
You guys have like a VIP list that's like if I'm willing
to pay more, you got those.
Like you're just holding themoff.
They're all stars, they're justrock stars.
Heredes (13:19):
Yes.
Tim Foot (13:25):
How do you handle that ?
One thing you're going to learnabout Slingshot is we tell the
truth, and the truth is you'renot going to have your leader
next week.
Brooke Hodenfiled (13:29):
Or you're going to have a crummy one.
Tim Foot (13:31):
Exactly, and we're also going to tell you that the
people business is a messybusiness.
Staffing is hard work and it'sgoing to get messy, which is why
we invest so much inrelationships at the start of
the process and we believe youwant to partner with Slingshot
because when it does get messywe're going to lean in in the
(13:55):
right, healthy kind of way andalso we're going to determine at
the beginning whether you'reactually ready for search, and
often an organization that sayswe want somebody next week to
throw us somebody, often thoseorganizations aren't actually
ready for the search.
That's a dead giveaway, isn'tit, brooke?
That's a little warning signthat the organization mightn't
actually be ready for a staffsearch, and we're not afraid to
say so and then talk about howwe can get ready.
(14:16):
Would you add something to that, brooke?
Brooke Hodenfiled (14:19):
Yeah, I mean.
What I would say, too, is thatit's equal parts art and science
.
We have to know what we're doing, of course, and we have to have
the infrastructure to supportit, but when an organization
wants to jump and go in withjust send me names, give me
people, we don't care about thesite visit then what that tells
us is the candidate's probablynot going to be well cared for
(14:40):
and step into an environment ofpotentially chaos and lack of
clarity and they are justlooking for a hole to fill.
And that's not the business thatwe want to be about, because,
in good faith, we're workingwith candidates that are
entrusting us to help themsteward their journey and their
transition and their life andtheir family.
So we consider it an honor anda privilege to do that with both
(15:03):
the organizations we serve andthe candidates we serve.
So, relationships critical,getting on sites critical,
because it's in the same way.
You can't speak to something ina secondhand way.
We want to be able to translateculture and their values and
what it felt like to be upamongst the leadership team that
a person would actually sitamongst, versus just kind of in
a robotic, secondhand, vague way.
(15:25):
That's not actually going togive someone a compelling
understanding of an opportunity.
Justin (15:30):
I love that idea that you guys go on site because
that's an expense.
That's a.
It takes time, um, it takesperson like your, you know,
personnel to be there, not justthe time to travel and the
expense to do it.
Um, what is one of the worstexperiences you had when you got
on site, like don't, please,don't say the name, I don't want
(15:50):
you to throw anybody under thebus but like what is an
organization?
You got on site with Brooke andyou were just like I can, you
are not ready to hire anybody.
Brooke Hodenfiled (16:00):
Oh, man, okay , oh, there's so many
interesting ones, okay, we havetime.
Okay, so I'm going to, on behalfof my team, I'm going to tell
two.
That is really intriguing.
One required a dust buster andit was already there in the room
(16:27):
of this place where theyoffered this team member team
member to stay.
Um, because they had a ladybuginfestation, so she had to go
around and just like zap up theladybugs the whole time that she
was on site.
Um.
Another another one, uh, wasrequiring that shoes come off as
soon as you enter their officespace, cause they were really
stewarding what they had createdreally well and that was really
important to them.
Um, and so we loved on thatorganization and sent them
(16:48):
slippers afterwards, because howcool you come, you got to have
your slippers.
I got to go to Honduras for anorganization that we're
currently working with and havebeen working with for a while,
because they were hiring theirdirector of international
operations, now COO, and theyfelt like this person needs to
know what it's like to be onsite in Honduras with the team.
(17:11):
They're required to speakSpanish, like stateside is going
to do nothing as a site visit.
So that was a pretty cool onegoing on site, the worst one and
then I'll let Tim jump inProbably I would say not the
(17:38):
worst one, but just I'll let Timjump in at that table was
basically the pathway of eitherletting go and finding a leader
to take over the helm or theimplosion of a nonprofit, and
ultimately that's what ended uphappening and we got to the
point where we did our best tohelp them work through some of
(17:59):
those things, but at the end ofthe day that organization was
laid to rest and it was reallysad honestly, I find it
interesting, brooke, that thosefirst three examples you gave,
actually those relationships andsearches turned out well, oh,
fantastic.
Tim Foot (18:16):
Yeah, they were unique situations.
They were memorable rather thandisastrous.
Yeah, true, the disastrous onesare where there is a lack of
intentionality.
There, right?
True, yeah, the disastrous onesare where there is lack of
intentionality, there's lack ofplanning.
They don't allow us to speak tothe people that we really need
to speak to, or when we work outthat what we suspected was
(18:37):
high-level dysfunction and we'rewilling to step into high-level
dysfunction any day of the weekWe'll run into a burning
building for the sake ofministry and mission any day of
the week.
We'll run into a burningbuilding for the sake of
ministry and mission any day ofthe week.
When it's toxic.
That's when it's sadlydisappointing because it affects
the team, it affects kingdom.
Impact and toxicity can oftentrack back to the head of an
(18:58):
organization and where we knowthat in most cases the head of
an organization is untouchable.
And I think part of that,Brooke, is where we're seeing
founders who are transitioningout and succession needs to
happen.
Justin (19:12):
That's why we love to do succession coaching, because
then we can really affect thetrajectory of an organization
three like toxic traits that ifyou walk in and and you start
working with an organization youmaybe even show up on on site
and you notice those things it'sa big red flag, if not like a
(19:34):
deal breaker, for you to workwith them, at least something
for you to address.
Are there a couple of thingsthat you guys kind of uh train
your team to look for or be onwatch?
Brooke Hodenfiled (19:45):
I mean, I would say what's really
unfortunate is you don't evenhave to train your team for this
, because that's why it's so.
It's palpable.
I mean, you can, you can feelit, you can see it, you can you,
you really don't have to lookhard for it because it's been
normalized or it's beensquelched and hidden.
The other thing I would say isyou know, we have individual
(20:09):
conversations with team membersthat are going to be supporting
and around the role that we'refinding and identifying and
often when you come back and youfeel like it was less of a site
visit and more of likecounseling and therapy and
pastoring that you're doing, youknow there's some heavy stuff
that's left undealt with andthat that's really weighty um
(20:30):
for for us because we want to,um, just navigate that really
well, and it can be reallydelicate, but that, I would say,
is a surefire sign of oftoxicity.
Um, those kinds of heavy andhard conversations that are just
surface because they're likesomeone anyone cares to hear
about what's actually happeninghere.
Tim Foot (20:51):
Yeah yeah, we hire great team members who are all
coaches, and I think that's partof what sets Slingshot apart
too is all of our searchassociates are coaches and so
they can spot it really quicklyand if it's on Brooke's team,
she'll get a call same day, andif it's high level toxicity,
(21:13):
I'll get a call from Brooke sameday and we'll be processing how
we need to handle this and howwe need to love an organization
well through it.
Often it's vision void.
Often it's lack ofcommunication internally, it's
breakdown of relational equityon the team, it's infighting the
(21:36):
meetings, outside of themeetings, anxiety is not getting
addressed.
All of those things that youwould guess are signposts that
point us to toxic culture.
Justin (21:46):
Sure, those sound too familiar for some of us and I
love that you guys are able toaddress it.
Be honest, tackle that head onbefore adding to the mess and
the toxicity, putting new stuffin there.
That's super cool.
I know I was thinking a lotabout the conversation with you
(22:07):
guys and the opportunity to chatand I was thinking about the
transitional experiences thatnonprofits are having.
Who are like for the longesttime they only staffed from
within.
You know who I'm talking about.
Those organizations are like yougot to be a volunteer here,
because if you're bought in as avolunteer or you've been
(22:30):
participating or donating orserving inside of this
organization, that's where weget our people from and they
never look outside of theorganization for expertise.
That would bring the, you know,elevate the organization to a
different level Cause they uh,for one reason or another, they
believe typically the leadersbelieve that is the purest way
(22:53):
to maintain our mission and tobe true to who we are.
If we let outsiders in, wemight lose our DNA, we might not
be as pure and authenticallywho we are.
How do you break through thatidea of like man?
It's got to be this traditionalpath that we've grown our
healthy organization for 25 or35 years this way, and now here
(23:17):
we are, post pandemic, and it'snot in their best interest.
They don't have that good of amarket to choose from and the
people that they're looking atthey're going.
I don't know if anybody'sreally qualified to help us grow
.
Brooke Hodenfiled (23:31):
Yeah, it's interesting.
We're actually we've had theprivilege of working with
organizations that thinkexclusively external and also
that think exclusively internal,and so what you're describing
is something very familiar forus.
I would say the first thing wewould ask is like is it working?
Do you have what you need withthe talent within your room and
(23:53):
within your structure right now?
And, if not, have youconsidered exploring outside of
the inner circle?
Because it could be that there'sa perspective that's missing or
someone that you don't have atthe table because you've only
considered kind of your ownblood and there can definitely
be pros to that and value inthat but at the same time,
(24:13):
there's also things that couldbe completely overlooked and
missing, that could elevate anorganization to a next level.
So we would definitelychallenge that and just invite
them to consider a differentpathway.
And I think oftentimes what weare doing is translating value
and helping people see talentand value where they haven't
(24:35):
considered or thought aboutlooking at it, because it looks
different now and they're comingfrom different sectors and what
previously classically trainedis what you're looking for.
You might be looking forsomething you don't know you're
looking for, but if no onepushes back and no one asks the
question, then you don't know toconsider that either.
Tim Foot (24:56):
An important question at the start of the hiring
process is the same question atthe start of any kind of
strategic movement processforward in an organization, and
that is who are we?
Because identity determinesfunction, identity determines
the growth of your team.
It's asking the right questions, because the quality of your
questions determine the power ofyour mission.
(25:17):
And so when you ask who you are, then you realize how well you
know yourselves.
Then you start asking culturequestions.
Then you start asking culturequestions, and when you start
asking culture questions, youstart realizing either we need
to perpetuate the good stuffthat's happening here or we need
to grow our culture in a better, healthier direction.
(25:39):
And the answer to those twoquestions are whether you
continue to promote internallyor hire within your network, or
whether you hire on the outside.
And so many organizations needto expand their culture and grow
it and therefore they need tolook outside of the pools
they're used to fishing in.
And so often our teams canbecome an echo chamber.
(26:01):
It's people that all think thesame way that we do, and that's
no way to grow.
And so we can just piggybackingon what Brooke was saying we
can come in and ask thoseexpanding questions that cause
you to go.
Oh yeah, we need somebody fromthe outside.
Or sometimes we'll go into anorganization and say you're in a
(26:22):
really healthy spot right nowand I'm not sure you've seen but
that person.
You're going to lose them ifyou don't give them a growth
opportunity, and so let us helpyou know how to help them step
up into a role that's going tobe catalytic for the future of
this organization, but also fortheir leadership, and will help
them stay on board.
Justin (26:41):
That's where the coaching really is necessary,
right, that's where the coachingreally is necessary, right?
Heredes (26:45):
Let me ask for our listeners.
It's 30% nonprofit businessleaders, 30%.
Churches, 30%, you knowChristian faith-based.
You know businesses that mayhave never engaged with a search
, you know group or hired fromthe outside To them.
It's a risk To them, it'slooking, it's expensive, it's
(27:07):
expensive, it's not comfortable.
What would you tell them?
And sharing a little bit ofwhat you just shared and how do
you measure success?
How do I know?
How do you guarantee it's likeTim Brooke, I just want to know
If I'm going to put myself outthere and put my baby out here,
if I may, and we've got a goodthing going.
(27:30):
What's success?
How do you measure that?
How do you track that?
And how would you guarantee tosomebody looking or maybe
listening right now who's likeconsidering it, but just not
sure, not yet.
Brooke Hodenfiled (27:38):
Yeah, I'll jump in on the like.
Why would you consider using asearch organization?
Like us, I think one of thefirst things that we find often
working with boards and whoeverit is that's stewarding this
search process.
Oftentimes they don't have thetime.
Their time is better spentmoving the mission forward,
(27:59):
leading an organization, leadinga board, and they simply don't
have the time to do it.
Secondly is that they may nothave access to the right kind of
leaders or even know where tostart to your question earlier
inside, outside one or the other, maybe a combination of both,
they don't have the expertise orthey're too close to it to be
able to really have an unbiasedviewpoint of how best you might
(28:23):
move forward.
And so, having a different setof eyes that can kind of come
from a global perspective andalso have just a pulse on what's
happening in the talent marketand how do you become
competitive, how are you makingthis the most compelling
opportunity possible?
And walking alongside anorganization and ask those
really important questions toget them thinking more so about
(28:47):
the quality of the leader andthe quality of the role, versus
just filling the role with aperson.
I mean all the ancillaryimportant things that really are
what are going to make a leaderstay and not and retain that
person so they can do it ontheir own and maybe not ask
those questions.
But it could be that in sixmonths or however many long,
(29:08):
it's not done in a way that theperson's going to stick around
and stay and ultimately you'reback at square one.
You've lost your time, you'velost your mission momentum and
you don't have a guide or atrusted partner to help you
navigate that road ahead.
So that's a common conversationwe have for sure.
Tim Foot (29:29):
Hiring is harder than it's ever been.
I mean, even pre-pandemic worldwith social media, it is just
harder than it's ever been.
It's not like just calling up abunch of friends.
And your time, your leadership,time and energy is your
greatest commodity, and so thehours you spend working search,
(29:51):
when it's something that a grouplike us lives and breathes all
the time, the hours you actuallyexpend doing something that
you're not used to doing all thetime, will end up costing you
more than whatever you'll everpay a search group.
So that is so, so important totake that into account.
How do we measure success?
I mean we started this what 17years ago in the church space,
(30:14):
when it wasn't happening in thechurch space because of a stat
that we were concerned about andthat is ministry people were
staying less than two years andthat was really, really
concerning.
We believe our process setsleaders up for five years and
beyond, and then to branch outand now be growing so rapidly in
the nonprofit world and to beable to scale what we learned in
(30:38):
ministry organizations tofaith-focused nonprofits and
even some faith-focusedfor-profits, like you guys do,
has been so great to see how ourrelational approach can really
affect, move Mission Forward.
So to see leaders stay at anorganization is probably the
biggest measure of success.
(30:59):
Now, yes, we do have aguarantee, like if a life event
happens or a family doesn't makea move or kids struggle, we'll
re-engage in under 12 months andeven beyond that.
We want each organization wework with to be a raving
slingshot fan.
So we're going to do the rightthing.
But also we look deeper at thescience of it.
Brooke talked about the art andthe science, but the science of
(31:21):
it is when we look at a leaderand we come back and we stay
connected to an organization,which is always our hope that
we'll be a trusted partner whenit comes to the people side of
the organization.
But is that leader bringingimmediate chemistry to that
organization?
Is there a sense of chemistrythat's moving mission and vision
(31:43):
and the work forward?
Is there increased team healthwith that person being on that
team?
Is there an increased level ofteam health?
For us, that's what we want tobe known as the healthy team
people, and so we're all aboutfinding the right person to help
the team be healthy.
Is that person providing a highindividual contribution?
So is their individualcontribution strong to the
(32:04):
organization.
We love it when organizationssaid you placed John or Sally
and they are doing an amazingjob.
I mean, it was immediatelyevident to us, which is why we
have our first 90-day coachingresource that we provide with
each search as well, so the newleader on the team can connect
(32:24):
well with their supervisor orthe board or whatever that
reporting relationship is.
Is there increased ministrymomentum, organizational
momentum?
Is it moving the organizationforward faster?
And then is there increasedorganizational capacity?
We want a person to come onboard, learn that organization
quickly, so there's greater ROIsooner, there's greater
(32:48):
organizational capacity sooner.
So those are some of the thingsthat the science side of it
that we'll look at.
Yeah.
Heredes (32:55):
Tim, I want to squash this rumor really quick.
You talked about the first 90days and the coaching and word
on the street.
Now I've verified the health,the people you've placed, our
friends, our colleagues, ourpeers for the last 17 years
Rumor.
The word on the street is thatthere are no job descriptions,
or you guys wait till 90 days,six months, to then write a job
(33:15):
description.
Tell us more about this.
It's a founder mentality or wewouldn't get hired.
Tim Foot (33:20):
That's not true at all .
Eridis, one of our co-founders,who's a real creative thinker.
He said I wish that you didn'thave to create a job description
until a leader was in the rolefor six months.
His thinking behind that isgenius, because we've all heard
the saying get the right personon the bus and we will say, when
(33:41):
we're in the strategic planningprocess for a search, we will
say personalities will drivesearches, meaning we can have
the best plan in the world, likeMike Tyson said.
Right, and we get into a search,we start connecting with
personalities that we havechemistry with and the job
description that we thought wewere hiring might shift a little
(34:02):
.
We were hiring might shift alittle.
So the thought behind that,which one of our co-founders,
stan, said one time, is hey, ifwe could get the right person.
We'll often say, hey, thismight be the person you thought
you wanted, but this is theperson you want on your team.
Sometimes we'll go out and do asearch for a specific leader.
We'll end up hiring two people,sometimes even three people or
even four people.
(34:22):
I can think of an organization,right, brooke, that we started
with one and then we ended uphiring four people.
It was obviously a biggerorganization but, it was because
we started seeing people thatthey wanted on their team and
they were creating a role forthose people.
Now organizations that thinkthat creatively can say, yes, I
want that person on the team andthis is the rough role I want
(34:44):
them to perform on our team.
But that's going to evolve inthe first six or 12 months
during their time.
Also, I would say Eris, to yourpoint.
Great leaders will not be doingthe same job in two to five
years, either at yourorganization or at some other
organization.
Heredes (35:04):
One more time.
One more time for the cheapseats.
A little louder.
Tim Foot (35:08):
Great leaders will not always be doing the same job in
two years or five years' time.
You get to decide whetherthat's on your team or off your
team.
Heredes (35:17):
Wow, we'll be right back after this break.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you, wow, that'sfantastic man that'll preach.
Thank you, wow, that's that.
That's that's man that that'llpreach.
That'll preach to him, and I'msure you guys see that firsthand
, front row right.
All the organizations.
Tim Foot (35:32):
In our own organization, sure.
Heredes (35:35):
Wow, yeah, go ahead.
Brooke Hodenfiled (35:38):
I say I'll just piggyback on that, because
I would say that is the mostcommon reason.
We talk to people that areconsidering a jump that never
would have guessed or expected.
Like they love the work they do, they love the mission, they
will say I thought I was goingto ride off into the sunset here
at this organization and it'sbecause they are not seen or
(35:59):
heard or invested in or listenedto or given an opportunity, to
Tim's point, to flourish.
And a high-capacity leader isnot going to just stay put.
They want to grow, they want tohave opportunities to be
developed and move upward in anorganization to bring more
impact.
And if you don't take note ofthose people, it's true They'll
(36:21):
find their way into a placewhere they can offer up those
things and be seen for that.
Heredes (36:28):
Brooke, let me ask you about, in the nonprofit sector,
what's the fundamentaldifference between, you know,
staffing for nonprofit and thenstaffing for the for-profit
sector.
If somebody's looking and it'slike, well, it's the same
difference, right?
People are people, tell us alittle bit, and it's like, well,
it's the same difference, right?
Brooke Hodenfiled (36:46):
People are.
People Tell us a little bit,yeah, well, and it's interesting
because part of my earlyrecruiting days was in health
care and staffing and healthcare organizations and working
with hospitals.
And it is interesting becausethere is a very stark difference
, because oftentimes a nonprofitleader or someone that's
looking to have a fulfilling,thriving, ministry-filled career
(37:07):
, it's often because there'ssomething within them, within
their identity, that speaks tothe calling or the mission of
the organization and they feeldrawn and compelled toward that
organization and even at thestake of maybe sacrificing some
things to take an opportunity ora role, because they feel so
fulfilled by the work thatthey're doing that their
(37:29):
identity, even their personalvalues maybe, are tied up in the
work that they do.
So they're willing to investmore, do more in ways that I
never saw, to the same level ordegree in the for-profit sector.
And you can be passionate, youcan be all in in a for-profit
world.
I'm not saying one is betterthan the other, it's wherever
God's called you you can do goodwork.
(37:50):
But I feel like there's aninteresting, sometimes in an
unhealthy way, your identity canbe wrapped up in a mission and
you forsake things because youcare so much and you have a
bleeding heart or so invested inthe work that you're doing, so
that, in my mind, is one of thegreatest distinctions I
(38:12):
personally have seen, at least.
Tim Foot (38:14):
That's really good.
Often we'll need to translatefor boards of nonprofits, and
often in the church space too,that are marketplace leaders,
which is one of the things Ilove about the work we get to do
, because we work with so manydifferent people doing
interesting jobs that sit onboards.
But we'll need to contextualizethe difference between
(38:35):
faith-based search whether it befor-profit or non-profit, or
church as opposed to secularmarketplace search, because
usually you'll only encounterexclusive, retained search in
the faith-based space.
In marketplace you'll encounterlots of contingency search,
(38:56):
which is where you have multipleorganisations throwing the
darts, the dartboard, you know,in the healthcare industry or
the accountancy industry orbuilding, whereas in faith
sector it requires so muchdeeper work, in a sense because
of theological alignmentalignment with the mission
(39:17):
calling, which is that wholespiritual piece that comes with
it that we love so much aboutthe work we do.
There's so many components tofaith-based search or faith
focused search that isn't therein marketplace, which is why you
actually partner with oneorganization to go the journey
with you and what we see whenthat goes well and when they're
(39:37):
open to that partnership, isthat partnership continues, it
becomes a trusted partnershipand you end up really journeying
with an organization andthere's nothing better, right,
brooke?
Yeah.
Justin (39:50):
I was curious what you guys thought about the
transition to people hiringteams like fractionally versus
doing a full-time hire throughyou.
So it's like again and this islike, don't hold back any
punches for our sake of being afractional team that people can
hire for marketing.
(40:11):
But what like?
What do you guys say?
What are the differencesbetween somebody who should hire
like shouldn't spend the money?
You know, oftentimes, budgetwise, you might be looking at
hiring a, an agency, for thesame prices, bringing on a staff
, or at least that's what thesalaries look like.
You don't think about all themanagement expenses and
everything else it goes,training and all that.
(40:32):
But how do you guys decipherthat?
And what do you see the good,the bad of those fractional
services for teams that aregrowing, for organizations that
are growing?
Brooke, as you're looking, youknow, obviously I think if
someone's asking you to helpfind somebody, you're not going
to turn that down and be like,no, you should just hire a
(40:54):
fractional service.
Brooke Hodenfiled (40:57):
It's.
It's interesting because Ithink that the ways that we can
fill a void are numerous now.
I mean there's outsourcing,there's internal, there's
fractional, there's full-time,there's taking a role and
splitting it into two part-timeroles and you get two people and
the creativity and the waysthat you can approach that I
(41:19):
think should be explored,because it's never a one size
fits all, you know, kind ofscenario.
So I think it goes back toasking the question, like what
Tim was saying earlier who arewe and what are we trying to
accomplish here?
What's, what's our goal in thishire?
Is it bringing outsideperspective and really hoping to
(41:40):
deepen our culture?
Is it a we're missing?
We have a skill gap that iscompletely void and we need an
actual, really specific skillset.
Is it we're missing?
We have a skill gap that iscompletely void and we need an
actual, really specific skillset.
Is it a generalist, in a waythat we're looking for, you know
, someone to lead and oversee ateam?
So I think it goes back to kindof building blocks where what
do you need and then what arethe options that you have
(42:01):
budget-wise, even oversight,like do you have the right kind
of leaders in place that aregoing to be able to manage a
contracted kind of relationshiplike that?
What's the terms?
What's the length?
Do you need an actual person?
Because there's toxic or healthrelated issues and bringing an
outsider into the mix is notgoing to serve that purpose.
Well, I think there's a lot ofother questions that need to be
(42:23):
asked.
Yeah, sometimes it's simplybudgetary.
I mean, we have organizationsthat are looking for a unicorn
with spots that twirls andthey'll want to pay $3 an hour
for that individual and we'll behonest, we understand what the
needs are, but you're not goingto be able to attract that level
of talent and, in good faith,we can't find someone that is
(42:45):
going to be willing to entertainthat kind of compensation
structure.
So we understand the financiallimitations are real.
We get that.
We are sorry and grieve.
Our hearts are heavy for that,but you've got to be at a place
where you can afford to attractand retain a talent and to do
(43:05):
that.
It may look like a fractional,because that's simply what your
budget allows for a season andthat's okay.
There's not a good or bad, Ithink, in that.
It's just exploring all youroptions.
Justin (43:16):
Where have you seen like a fractional beat work good for
people and where have you seenit work bad, like?
What do you think are like thebad outcomes with it?
But also what have you seengood?
Tim Foot (43:30):
comes with it.
But also, what are you seeinggood?
While Brooke's thinking aboutthat, I would also add that you
need to manage that fractionalemployment really, really well,
otherwise you're just throwingaway money.
I mean, in a sense, hiringSwingshot just like hiring you
guys is a fractional option too.
We have organizations that havean HR department that realize
(43:51):
when it's appropriate to come tous, and we know what the
specific roles are, ourspecialty and we will be very
honest about it, and so,likewise, you might have a
marketing department in aministry or organization,
(44:11):
marketing department in aministry or organization and you
have somebody there that isactually managing the
outsourcing of certain services.
So I would say that's where wesee it work.
Best is when there is somebodywho knows how to appropriately
manage fractional employment andknows when it's appropriate to
reach out for that fractionalwork.
But, as Brooke said too, itmight be a much smaller
(44:34):
organization that isn't ready tohire the role yet.
And how do you know?
You're not ready, we'll tellyou.
And also you'll have a salaryrange that limits the kind of
candidate that you're able toget, and if you have a lower
salary range in this environmentcan't get the right candidate,
(44:55):
it's not going to be a healthyhire and we'll say to you what
you should do is go to a grouplike Verse, who are going to
help you, and they will help youscale with what they provide
and then you're going to beready to go for that full-time
employee that's going to be avalued member of your team that
you can do life with, that canlive out the vision and mission.
Justin (45:16):
Yeah, I do love that, Tim, because I've seen that over
and over again.
When there's not somebody whocan manage the outsourced
fractional team member, well,it's very hard for the
fractional person to bring themost amount of value because
they're not getting the rightinformation If they're not being
managed, they're not able tofocus on the right priorities
(45:38):
because they're not gettingaccess to the decision makers or
the priorities of theorganization.
And when you have somebody good, we see that success always
elevates the manager that's onsite.
And so we say over and overagain when we're talking to a
new client if you have somebodyon site who is teachable, is
willing to work and isn'tthreatened by us being there, it
(46:01):
works really, really well forus.
And I could totally see thatbeing the case with you guys in
any HR department.
that isn't threatened by yourexpertise, whether it's doing
coaching or staffing.
Brooke Hodenfiled (46:19):
Going back to your question earlier, I think
where the kind of roles thatI've seen, where fractionals
worked out well is in thefinance and accounting space out
well is in the finance andaccounting space, where I would
say it's there is a function gapand so someone needs to come in
(46:40):
with a very specializedexpertise and is given, to your
point, all the information theyneed and they're set up for
success.
There's clarity in their role,there's a timeline associated,
there's oversight.
That's where I see it workingreally well.
Or also you can think of in thechurch space like an
intentional interim If there issomeone that's needed to get the
organization to a point ofhealth before you can bring in
the next leader.
That may be a C-suite levelrole.
(47:02):
It may be someone that's at thehelm, that is able to step in
in a way to shepherd or stewardwhatever healing needs to happen
before the next leader comes.
I've also seen that work reallywell.
Again with the timeline, veryclear goals and specifics as to
how that person is going toengage and that person is set up
where those that are advocatingfor this person to come in
(47:24):
they're going to be receivedwell received.
And if not, then that's going tobe an uphill battle for that
person that's coming in tosteward that season.
But those are just the twoscenarios I thought of when you
asked that question.
Justin (47:40):
I love the intentional interim.
That is not an option thatenough people think through,
because oftentimes things aresuch a mess that the next, the
predecessor, has so much cleanupwork to do and they have to do
it so slowly if they're in itfor the long haul.
But if you're intentionally likean interim, you can just go in
and take all the hits.
(48:01):
You could be thrown under thebus because you know I'm
supposed to be here for a year.
It's probably going to be amessy year, and then I'm going
to clean it up and leave thisorganization healthy enough for
someone long-term to stay here,and it's such a good strategic
move.
I think more organizations, ifthey had access to you guys
where they knew they could bringsomebody in that was willing to
(48:21):
get run over like that or helpclean up the mess.
And I'm sure you guys have alot of other strategies for when
that's the right time, whenthat's the right thing to do,
and I'm sure you guys have a lotof other strategies for when
that's the right thing to do.
But I've seen that work so manytimes that I love that.
Tim Foot (48:34):
Yeah, we will absolutely advise if an
intentional interim is needed,and we have partners too, that
we can also recommend to come inand serve that purpose.
That's what you'll learn aboutpartnering with Slingshot, which
is why it's always worth havinga conversation with us.
We're going to tell you thetruth.
The last thing we want to do isembark on a search journey when
(48:57):
it's not the right time.
Heredes (49:00):
Tell us this.
We're going a little over time.
So thank you for your time.
We'll wrap it up here.
So we're having a good time.
I know we're having a good time.
Tim Foot (49:07):
We're having a great time.
Heredes (49:08):
We are Okay.
A few more minutes here.
Two things.
And where has it been withreaching organizations
nationwide?
Where are the challenges?
Where are the gaps?
Where are the areas, andgeographically speaking, that
are difficult?
Does the data show somewhere?
Tim Foot (49:31):
Actually I think, brooke, it would be a good thing
to talk here because there's anobvious answer to your question
, eridis.
Like where cost of living ishigh, it's difficult, it's
really difficult.
Also, you know, when there'snot mountains or coastline, it
can sometimes be a challenge aswell, because people are very
particular about where they wantto be and likewise where they
want to be, and likewise peoplemight want to be near the
(49:53):
coastline or near the mountains.
If their family is living inIowa, they want to be in Iowa.
You know what I mean, and soyou need to work out, okay, how
can we make provisions for themto visit their family three
times a year, to get really,really creative about salary
package.
But I think now is a reallygood time to talk, brooke, about
remote and how that's becomesuch a huge issue in nonprofit
(50:16):
world.
Brooke Hodenfiled (50:18):
Yeah, that's yeah.
My mind first went to what youjust said cost of living and
then I would say a closecompetitor to that, to geography
is how you do work.
That is the most asked, themost needed to be clarified in
terms of candidate conversations, because people will forego
salary, they will forego a lotof things, if how the
(50:41):
organization works fits theirlifestyle, and I've I've been
kind of using this verbiage ofwork-life integration versus
balance, because everything isso connected and interwoven
anymore and our lives are soentangled.
So to find something thatintegrates into who you are,
what you care about, in a waythat allows you to do the work
(51:03):
you feel like you're called todo in a way that also serves all
aspects of your life, that iswhat people are seeking right
now.
So remote opportunities could bethat it could be the case.
It could be a hybrid situationwith a high degree of
flexibility.
Rigidity is also something thatpeople are turned off by.
If you're an eight to five, youcan come in at 830 and do 830
(51:30):
to 430.
People's noses are in the airabout that kind of dynamic too,
because they want flexibilityand they want to be able to
ensure that their work servesthe other aspects of their life
(51:52):
and it's a competition, thechallenges for people that are
trying to attract talent,because oftentimes, if you're
not in a situation where you canoffer flexibility or come up
with creative solutions, you'reup against a remote and a remote
seeking talent workforce.
Tim Foot (52:03):
In saying that we will take on five days a week in the
office in the Bay Area.
I mean we'll take on thosesearches we just realized oh,
okay, oh, we have all of them.
Yeah, there's going to be anextra level of complexity and
challenge and we're going totell you what that's going to be
straight up.
But we'll also learn from you,as we get to know you, what the
compelling story is about, whyyou want that person in the
(52:26):
office five days a week in theBay Area.
Brooke Hodenfiled (52:33):
Or if you're a rescue mission and you're
doing work at the rescue mission, it doesn't make sense for your
director of programs to behalfway across the country.
Like there's certain thingsthat it makes sense, and so
that's part of it, too ishelping us understand why you've
chosen this framework for howyou do work, and oftentimes it
makes a lot of sense.
It's just so that we cantranslate that well and find the
right person that's drawn tothat kind of work too.
Justin (52:55):
That's really good.
I love it yeah.
Heredes (52:57):
No, that answers.
The last one was just with thedata and access you guys have
around the country hundreds oforganizations, ministries, tech.
How is the craze of AI?
And we've talked about this.
It feels like it's buzz worthy,but buzz.
You know tech and in theworkplace we talked about remote
or that's that plays a rolewhat are you guys seeing?
(53:18):
What are trends, what arethings to to advise our
listeners or warn our listenerson?
Tim Foot (53:24):
AI is the buzz.
You want to be asking us abouthow we're using it in the search
process, but you also want toask how personalized that
process is, because that's whyyou're calling us.
I mean, there's going to bepeople that think they can do
search now on their own becauseof AI, and there's so much
beyond what that can provide.
(53:46):
It's a list of names.
Again, we're not about justthrowing the darts at the dart
ball or spitballing the ceiling.
We're about putting the rightstones in the slingshot, and
that means AI can.
Yeah, I heard somebody describeAI as a great intern.
So the intern goes away anddoes the work, brings the work
(54:06):
back, you finesse the work.
It's going back to what Brookesaid about art versus science.
There's science, lots ofscience.
Science is attempting to takeover the universe right now.
We need to balance it with art,and art comes from real
thinking, feeling, interacting,relational people.
Brooke Hodenfiled (54:29):
And I'll just piggyback on.
It's been interesting too justseeing some of the applications,
cover letters come through,even a response, to share a
little bit about what work andfaith looks like for you.
We can tell the AI response.
I mean, it does not replace thehuman and the authenticity.
(54:51):
We can sniff it out, I mean,and it's becoming increasingly
more common where we see that,and so it just won't replace it.
I think you can use it andwield its powers for good, and
you should.
If you turn away and put yournose in the air up against it.
I think that also is not good,because there are some great
(55:13):
assets that you can have andglean from it, but also it
doesn't replace everything andit won't ever, I don't think.
Justin (55:21):
Yeah, people can tell H.
That's why I still allow thetypos in my posts.
Nobody is questioning if AIdoes my posts.
Yes, that is a fact, you alwaysare telling me that I need to
fix the typos and stuff, but Ithink it makes me more human.
Heredes (55:35):
All art, no science, over here.
Tim Foot (55:37):
Whatever makes you feel better right?
Heredes (55:40):
Yes, exactly.
Justin (55:41):
It would feel cooler if I could say it like no ought the
way, no ought.
Heredes (55:46):
I didn't know what you were saying.
Justin (55:49):
I've been holding off on it the whole time.
Heredes (55:51):
I'm so sorry guys, seriously so much gold, so much
science and ought here todaythank you for being art, art and
science.
It sounds so much cooler whenyou use your guys seriously
thank you for being greatfriends and partners over the
(56:11):
years and much success to youguys.
It's in the fruit and we'veseen it and we commend you guys.
But thanks for the wisdom youbrought to our listeners today
and we'll put all the links onall the sites you guys are easy
to get a hold of.
But what's the best way for aquick conversation to find out
if it, like this, is the rightpath and this is what they
should consider?
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:31):
Yeah, Slingshotgrouporg is our website
.
Heredes (56:35):
All there.
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:36):
Yeah, all there.
And I would say to um find meon LinkedIn, um, and that
Burkhaudna field.
I love to connect with peoplethrough LinkedIn, so that would
be another place to um as well.
Heredes (56:49):
Love it.
Yes, thank you guys so much.
Justin (56:51):
Yeah, thanks for all that you guys are doing for
nonprofits.
Brooke Hodenfiled (56:54):
And you guys too.
We love you.
Yes, same Seriously.
Outro (56:58):
Thanks again for listening to the Nonprofit
Renaissance.
We hope it ignites arenaissance in you and helps you
go further and grow faster.
Be sure to share, rate andsubscribe, and if you'd like to
recommend or be a guest on ourshow, send us an email at
podcastatversecreativecom.
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