May 22, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Pastor Jeff Sullivan, who has transitioned from traditional church ministry to serving as a chaplain for both the military and local police departments. Jeff shares his compelling story, discussing the unique challenges and rewarding experiences he has encountered in his chaplaincy roles. He explains how his faith underpins his service, offering hope and comfort in high-stress environments.
Jeff provides valuable insights into the practical aspects of becoming a chaplain, emphasizing the importance of relational ministry and the significant impact chaplains can have on the communities they serve. Through heartfelt anecdotes and practical advice, this episode highlights the critical support chaplains provide and the difference compassionate leadership can make. This discussion is particularly relevant for non-profit leaders looking to enhance their community outreach and support initiatives, offering inspiration and guidance on how to effectively serve those in need.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heredes (00:00):
Hanging out in the 305.
Yeah With, there's a list ofaccolades that I can list.
I'll list some of them, becauseyou're from sitting on the
board of care large organization, from executive pastor an
amazing church in Miami GranadaChurch to chaplain for the
police department, for the armycurrently, and tons more I can
(00:24):
say.
But the most important is youwere when I was a teenager.
You were one of my pastors.
Way back right and that justmakes either you old or me, I
don't know crazy because wetalked about this but way back
in the day, in start, earlyministry days, you were doing it
, you were pastoring.
You were church planning.
(00:45):
You were doing it, you werepastoring, you were church
planning you were.
Jeff Sullivan (00:47):
Is that right?
And that seems like a differentlifetime ago, doesn't it?
It does, it does Out in theWest.
Heredes (00:53):
Kendall.
And now did you parachute intoMiami?
Jeff Sullivan (00:56):
No, Well.
No, I came and married a Cuban,so is that parachuting?
Or would that be sailing intoMiami?
I think I'm an illegal alien toMiami.
I crossed the border.
Heredes (01:11):
So okay, yeah, that's different than parachuting in.
Once you get into the Cuban,you got into the Cuban mafia
from the beginning.
Jeff Sullivan (01:19):
Yes, yeah, I got in, I bought in, I came in to be
Cuban and then I started church.
I love it, so that's kind ofthe way it played out.
Heredes (01:27):
All to say to our listeners, jeff and I go way
back and you're listening fromJeff Sullivan and currently XP
at Granada Church, an incredibleplace here in Miami.
If you're in the area, ifyou're looking for a place
incredible people you need tostop by.
Our team has been inpartnership and working in lots
(01:49):
of overlap and family andfriends who are here, but it's
exciting because today we'retalking specifically about
something kind of dear to hisheart and something that I've
explored as well that I havefamily who are exploring in the
service per se, but that'schaplaincy.
So tell us a little bit firstyour journey into that pastoring
(02:11):
and now chaplaincy and doingboth and and how that works.
Jeff Sullivan (02:14):
Yeah, it's very interesting because I've only
been a chaplain for two yearsand I'm 47 now, so I got started
at the age of 45, which ispretty late for military careers
.
Typically you start young.
That way you can be young andfit and do all the stuff you're
supposed to do.
Heredes (02:34):
Which I want to talk.
That's a great misconceptioneven to start with, because most
people assume you may have tostart in what?
In your 20s maybe, or in your30s Not necessarily For
chaplaincy, I would guessprobably 30s would be ideal,
because then you can't start.
Jeff Sullivan (02:50):
But so young because it is a requirement for
military chaplains to have aMaster's of Divinity.
So you figure, if you've gotfour years of school plus three
years of school, you're lookingat seven.
The earliest you could be isprobably like 25.
And then they need two yearsexperience.
So if you just had it as adream right out of high school
(03:10):
to do it, you still wouldn't doit for 10 years.
So you know, so there is some,you know, part of that that just
is already going to make you alittle bit older in it.
But, um, I think there's anadvantage to being older in in
the chaplaincy because there isa level of life experience you
know.
So, like I have a son who is 23years old.
(03:30):
Wow, the soldiers that I'mtalking to are that age, some
even younger, that's so.
So it allows you to have moreof a father figure, have a
little more wisdom, to sharelife experience, understanding
of what, what's important or not, than when you're younger.
Like even myself at 30 is notgoing to see the world the way I
do at 47.
(03:51):
It's just you just understandlife differently at that point.
So it does help being in thereas you're older.
Heredes (03:59):
I love that and I want to get into some details To our
listeners.
I asked Jeff to kind of put onthe chaplain hat.
There's so many things he'sgreat at and people he oversees
and how he pastors and leads,but I wanted to talk about this
one because in talking to youthere's a need Right, maybe for
(04:21):
your local police department, orthere's hospitals, the need for
good chaplaincy and good care.
In that sense, how did you kindof come into it and break it
down a little bit?
What does a chaplain do?
Jeff Sullivan (04:35):
Oh, so, I would say, let's say I was talking to
someone that I want to encourageyou to be a chaplain, or maybe
you're thinking about should Ibe a chaplain?
So first, it's a newopportunity to serve.
If you're service-minded, thatit's kind of built into your DNA
, or you're part of ministry,that you'll have opportunities
(04:56):
to serve people.
You like to be in that spotwhen things are rough, that
you're like.
You know, I like to be theperson people talk to.
I like the one who brings hope.
You know, if you're, you know,that kind of person, then
chaplaincy is just an ideal rolefor you, because the most
crucial moments of chaplaincyare when things are difficult.
(05:19):
A couple of recent examplesthat I could share.
So I'm a volunteer at the CoralGables Police Department as a
chaplain, because theirchaplaincy program is not paid,
it's all volunteer-based andthere's a few other pastors and
a Catholic priest and a rabbi.
We're on a team together toserve the local police
department here.
Heredes (05:40):
Is that standard, Jeff?
The volunteer forces, it variesit depends.
Jeff Sullivan (05:42):
Is that standard, jeff?
The volunteer forces it varies,it depends.
So maybe, if you're like,miami-dade County has paid
chaplains and volunteerchaplains.
Gotcha Broward Sheriff'sDepartment has a great chaplain
team, so it's really dependenton how that department operates.
So many of them are volunteer,based on just budgetary.
(06:05):
But you might be living in acounty or you know a
municipality that they'vealready budgeted to have a
chaplain and so that would be apaid position and it's worth a
paid position because there isso much a chaplain can do.
And then I think, on avolunteer level it comes to be
where you, your chaplain, does.
(06:26):
What's the, what's needed to bedone, whereas what?
So there's a lot of room for,you know, possibility when
someone's full-time, but, um,the a great value, I think in.
Let's just speak as from myexperience as a volunteer police
chaplain, you have tounderstand the police department
to me is a higher riskorganization than the military,
(06:51):
because as a military chaplain,the armed forces go somewhere
and fight an enemy somewhereelse and then come home.
The police department, theirbattle is in their own
neighborhood, their backyard.
And it's, and there's a hightension because most stops and
(07:11):
interactions are fine but youdon't know which one's going to
not be the one.
You don't know which one is theone that is risky or dangerous
or is going to be very hostile,very hostile, and it could be as
much as what would normally be.
A sweet old lady in theneighborhood could be just
chewing out because they feellike they have the ability to
(07:32):
yell and scream, or it could be,you know, real life-threatening
danger.
So there's an on-edge in thepolice department and then
there's not a separation becauseyou drive home.
You're driving home a few miles, you're not deploying and
leaving it and saying, whew,that place, that part, and
that's why it is such a verydifficult job.
(08:07):
That's why you know police workis very hard, not just the
life-threatening part, you know,because there's that risk.
But you know most officers, youknow aren't going to have shots
fired at them or have to shoot.
That's not a constant, constantthing, but it is a constant
stress, emotional, uh.
(08:27):
It's constant conflicthappening with whoever you pull
over it's.
It's so managing that on aday-to-day uh is difficult and
then, um, you see the worst ofeverything in your neighborhood.
So when the police are called,it's because something terrible.
So you don't see best of things, you see the worst of things
and it colors your world.
So police officers really needchaplains to bring hope, to be a
(08:53):
confidential listener, to be anencourager, to be on their team
, to know that there's a placeto be.
And I would definitely encourageif you, you know, are a pastor,
wherever you're hearing this,check in and see what is the
situation like at your policedepartment.
(09:14):
Do they have a volunteerchaplaincy?
Are they looking for more?
You know at first, you know ifthey don't know you and you
don't know them just likeanybody else, if you show up at
my door, I'm not giving you ajob, but if you know, oh okay,
there is a need.
Let me start to lay somegroundwork to prepare for that.
(09:35):
For me it was volunteering oncommittees, spent time on
different committees, you know,like anti-crime or neighborhood
watch, stuff like that.
Then you establish to thepolice that you are a citizen
who cares and that you're apastor who would be available,
and then from there then youhave enough trust that they
(09:55):
invite you into it.
You know, if it's not like anopen position you apply for a
lot of times it's relational,but I think every church should
look at its community and say isthis something that we could be
doing?
Heredes (10:08):
Pete.
I love that.
Jeff, you've done itbivocationally, in a sense that
you've maintained full-timeministry, always serving the
local church involved.
How is that possible?
How would you encourage someonewho's on a staff at a church or
someone who needs to look in,so it's's not a conflict or wait
?
Is there different careerpursuits or a calling?
Talk to me about that.
(10:30):
How have you managed it?
How do you encourage others tolook at it for police, but also
for military?
Jeff Sullivan (10:35):
I would say a lot of that has to do with how the
church, what expectations thechurch has for its pastor.
I'm very thankful at Granadathere is a very openness here to
allow pastors to find ways tobe ministers in the community
and not just be pastors at thechurch.
And so having that type ofmargin in your staff is good so
(11:04):
that, like for me, that becomesa whole new outlet of ministry.
It doesn't always translatedirectly to church attendance or
things like that, but it doescreate a high level of goodwill
of my church in the community.
So now all the police officersknow the pastor at that church
volunteers his time for them.
(11:24):
Same for my city.
Commissioners know that that'sthe case.
So when you talk about thatcivic local government which is
very important to the localchurch, how you pastors count
(11:46):
for church growth, it does go along way in community
involvement and opportunity.
On the military side there's acouple advantages this could be
for a church staff, church staffFor one.
(12:09):
For me personally I didn'trealize to what level it would
expand my own leadership andcommunication and pastoral care.
Some of it I mean when you'rein the Army Reserve.
Army Reserve is training,training, training, training,
training.
Now a lot of it's sittingaround at PowerPoint.
You know, if you talk to anyonein the military, it's death by
PowerPoint or something they'llsay that you know.
So when you're experiencingthat, you're like, well, this
isn't really teaching me in sucha way that's going to make me a
(12:30):
better person, but the way itdoes is.
As a pastor for many years, Iwas always surrounded by church
people and then, as growing up,you have seminary, you have your
MDF, so you insulate yourselffrom the world at such a high
(12:52):
level that you're only used totalking to Christians or people
who are already walking in theroom exploring Christianity, and
you're placed in the generalpopulation of the US military,
even though a heavy percent ofthat does check the box
Christian.
As opposed to other religions,it's a little different, right,
(13:14):
they're not going to church,they don't know their pastor's
name, they don't have you know,and so now you're having daily
conversations.
Heredes (13:21):
Now you're in the world , not of the world, but you're
in the world Exactly.
You're hearing dailyconversations.
Now you're in the world, not ofthe world, but you're in the
world Exactly.
You're hearing it, feeling it,seeing it.
You're having the locker roomtalk slash.
Water cooler talk slash.
I'm sure you've heardeverything in between.
Jeff Sullivan (13:34):
Well then you end up having to really start to
speak differently, because youcan't just say well, the Bible
says this blank and this versethis and this, because now you
have to talk to someone who'snot using the Bible as their
primary reference point.
They're 40, yeah, so it teachesa level of apologetics.
I love that, but not a debate,apologetics or not in my case.
(13:55):
I would hope other chaplainsthe same.
Heredes (14:07):
You don't go to the debate people because it doesn't
really do that, but you startto learn how they're thinking
and how you can express thegospel in ways that match what
they're looking for and how toserve, or strategy in a rational
way to explain something thatto us is right put into
Christianese Right, weunderstand it and it's.
I love that.
I love that.
Now, with that said, obviously,jeff, christian evangelical
pastor, some taboos here.
With chaplaincy, all arewelcome, all are open.
(14:29):
There's again even, I guess,laws and legalities here, but
All religions welcome to becomea chaplain.
Jeff Sullivan (14:37):
Yes.
Heredes (14:38):
Tell me about that.
Is there any conflict there?
Is that good, bad ugly?
How's that handled?
Because a Buddhist or a priestis going to maybe handle things
different than a you name itPentecostal, presbyterian or
pastor.
Jeff Sullivan (14:54):
Yeah.
So my only experience is theArmy Reserve, which is an
excellent chaplaincy program.
So it is interfaith.
So in the Army Reserve you willhave predominantly, though
you're going to have ProtestantChristian, which is a huge
(15:16):
majority of the population, aswell as the chaplains.
Then you will have a smallpopulation of Roman Catholic.
You'll have a very smallminority of rabbi or imam and
then you'll have an occasionalother, whether that might be
Hindu, buddhist, sikh, anythingoutside of those normal, what we
(15:41):
expect in the normal population, so those kind of outliers.
So it is still predominantly aChristian thing.
But you do have to have theflexibility to work with others.
So if you're very rigid aboutyour doctrine, you're going to
have a hard time servingalongside of other people.
Your doctrine you're going tohave a hard time serving
alongside of other people.
You do have to realize that,hey, I'm working in a situation
(16:04):
that's outside of my church, soI have to be willing to play
fair in the sandbox with othersthat it's not my place.
You know, at my church I cansay this is what we say, what we
do, because any of you come in,you've already agreed to that.
Because you're saying I'mcoming into your church, pete,
my house, my rules right.
And if you come in, you'vealready agreed to that, because
you're saying I'm coming intoyour church, pete, my house, my
rules right, jared, right.
If I'm coming into the army,that's not my place.
(16:25):
I am in this place.
That is not a religious setting, and so I'm bringing it in, but
I have to realize there's otherpeople in the room that I have
to be, you know, play fair with.
Now, one good thing, even inthe Army Code of Doctrine, is
that, as a you know, so achaplain is endorsed by a
certain denomination.
So the Army partners with thedenominations, which is part of
(16:48):
a requirement, correct, correct.
Heredes (16:49):
There's the MDiv at all levels, even for police Police
is different.
Jeff Sullivan (16:53):
Different Police is different.
Departments are able to settheir own rules.
Heredes (16:57):
Gotcha.
Jeff Sullivan (16:57):
So a ministry, even a bachelor's or a Bible
degree or even experience inministry over a period of time,
it's whatever that chief ofpolice wants, if he just thinks
you're a cool guy and you do agood job, there's no rules to
them.
Heredes (17:09):
So maybe even Colin, our co-host here, colin, you may
qualify.
Colin, I know you're listeningright now.
You couldn't be in Miami withus, but I know you're going to
take a break right now anddefend yourself right now.
But I think you're cool enough,man.
I think you may do it.
You can do it.
You can do it right.
Jeff Sullivan (17:24):
Well, if the chief likes him, we'll see.
But in the Army there's apartnership.
So you have your endorser,which is your denomination.
So whether you're Presbyterian,baptist, assemblies of God,
catholic, whatever, that yourdenomination will validate.
You say this is a qualifiedcandidate of our faith, and then
(17:44):
they'll recommend you to thearmy and then the army will
commission you.
So you have, basically you havetwo oversights the army has the
general rule and then you haveyour specific denominational.
So the army will never ask meto violate my denominational
rules.
So, whatever those might be,particularly I do not have to
(18:05):
violate my own faith to serveothers, gotcha.
So the way they describe it inthere is that you either perform
or provide.
So I either perform thereligious service for you or I
provide it.
So let's say you believesomething different than me,
then it's just my job as yourchaplain to say you know what?
(18:25):
Let me find a chaplain whobelieves what you believe and
I'll contact you to them.
So that allows.
You know, I know a lot ofpeople worry about some of the
social changes.
You know.
Heredes (18:31):
How does that happen?
Have you seen some of that?
Has some of that happened?
Jeff Sullivan (18:34):
socially.
Well, the general populationhas changed so much, so, yeah,
and the army is just the generalpopulation, it's not different,
it's the same as the generalpopulation, you find, and it's
just a cross-section of that invarious ways.
So the beliefs will be verysimilar to what everyone else
has.
Heredes (18:52):
What have you seen, jeff, in a time of hurt, time of
need, I think, as creation, ashumankind, there's a certain
need and there's a certain void,there's a certain what have you
seen there?
Because at that, at thoselevels, have denominations?
Have there been any obstacleshave there been?
Are people open?
Has it been a good witnessingor gospel opportunity, like what
(19:14):
are some of those stories orthings you've heard and
experienced?
What are some?
Jeff Sullivan (19:17):
of those stories or things you've heard and
experienced, I would say thisAlmost no one and no one by my
experience, and probably almostno one will reject you saying
can I pray for you?
So simply pray for people.
If they're going through a hardtime, just say, let's stop and
(19:39):
pray for it right now.
And I've always findoverwhelming positive response
to that.
People say, oh, thank you,chaplain, I feel so much more at
peace, I feel so much.
You know even just that moment.
If you realize, if you're justgoing to affirm someone through
prayer and pray God's blessingin their life and pray for the
things that are bothering them,you're going to gain that
relational equity and and you'regoing to invite Christ's
(20:01):
presence into that moment andthat's going to mean a lot to
them.
And then your example as a goodChristian man or woman People
watch you.
They want to know does thisperson speak differently, look
differently, act differently?
Do they have other people'sbest interests in mind?
(20:22):
Do they look like Christ in away that they would see it?
And then if you're doing thosethings, you've now earned the
respect of your words.
And so then your chapel serviceor your Bible study you give
out, or whatever, now people arereceptive to it or whatever.
(20:43):
Now people are receptive to it.
So I would say what would bedifferent in the general
population now than maybe, say,when I was young, is that people
are very open, so they don'twant something to be too closed
off.
So if you keep things open-endedor you focus on the positive,
you have a much greater chanceof working with them towards
something and you can bring theminto a knowledge of Christ or
(21:05):
bring them to a recognition ofChrist.
If you try to close off a lotof boundaries, people get
anxious about that.
They don't want to be kind ofpinned into something, they want
to be able to pick.
And I know for a lot of peoplethat's like, well, that's not
the truth, and you're like that.
They don't want to be kind ofpinned into something they they
want to be able to pick.
And I know for a lot of peoplethat's like, well, that's not
the truth, and you're like, well, you could still bring the
truth in.
You know, absolutely.
(21:26):
You just gotta, I think, bemore aware of of what's going to
gain ground with them or orwhat's going to end your
conversation quicker.
Heredes (21:34):
That's good.
That's good.
Jeff, tell me you know we liketo talk at the podcast a lot
about the wins, success, butalso sometimes failures and give
us a time wherein, okay, thiswent south, this was difficult,
you learned something and giveus a story of like man, god did
this or God used me and the teamfor, can you share an
experience that comes to mind?
Jeff Sullivan (22:28):
Sure, I guess one of the easy things to do in
like a military chaplain role,or even in a police chaplain
role, is, like your desire toblend in and to be part of the
group can be so, and so yousteer away from a little bit of
boldness, you steer away frommaybe being awkward and asking
to pray.
You know you steer away and youjust want to kind of, you know,
not be a officer or soldier.
They have those and they havetraining for that and that's
what they do, and so.
So a failure that that Iexperienced is I'll find myself
realizing, oh, this, this entireevent, or this entire day, all
I did was, you know, try to notbe weird or not be, you know,
(22:53):
abrasive, and then I ended upnot being to chaplain he a peer
at their level, where you'recoming in with a level one
spiritual authority, butauthority for care and
leadership and right.
Heredes (23:05):
Does a chaplain rank higher than a soldier?
Does that play into any of thisor no?
Chaplains?
Jeff Sullivan (23:11):
have ranks, they're all officers, they all
are officers.
They have rank.
But really that rank, the rank,really doesn't have anything to
do.
You don't give orders to anyonein your unit.
You have, like an assistant, achaplain assistant or two that
you are responsible to and yougive orders to them.
But like I don't technicallyever order other soldiers to do
(23:31):
or not do I am a rank, I can,you know, do that you know, and
they can't, you know, disrespectme in a certain way.
But that's not.
I don't have any, you knowmission to be giving people
charge over, and even within thechaplaincy there's levels, but
that's usually just for.
Yeah, I have a you know someone, a major, who I report to and
(23:56):
he is, you know, my boss.
He can oversee me, tell me whatnot to do, what to do, gotcha.
So he outranks me and does that.
But typically in the militaryyou don't call chaplains by
their rank, you just call themchaplain Bingo.
So that's the goal is that we'dhave one job and it's not based
on rank.
Heredes (24:13):
Tell me before the success story Mm-hmm, do you
have to go to boot camp?
I'm sure that's everybody'squestion on the podcast.
Jeff Sullivan (24:22):
There is an officer's training, something
called BOLIC, basic OfficerLeadership Course.
The chaplains go through AirForce, navy and Army.
They do it differently.
The Army it's 13 weeks.
It does include about fourweeks of basic training type
stuff, but it is not the samelevel as a soldier, like the
18-year-old signing up for thedrill sergeant.
Heredes (24:43):
Is it a five-minute mile or something crazy like
that?
Jeff Sullivan (24:46):
No, you don't have to be in that great of
shape.
Unfortunately, the standard forYou're in shape, man.
Heredes (24:51):
You're doing great.
Are you doing like pull-upsevery day and doing?
Jeff Sullivan (24:54):
That's my choice to try to be at the top of the
list, not the bottom of the list.
I love it, but you can the.
The minimum requirements forofficers in the army reserve is
pretty low.
If you're not injured and youyou do your basic mobility,
you'll be able to do it.
Gotcha, you know.
So it's not, and if you justput a little bit of effort
you'll.
You'll get yourself there ifyou aren't there, so that's not
(25:15):
really a huge, huge obstaclecool story.
Heredes (25:17):
Cool story maybe god's done something you've
experienced and seen god dothrough the chaplaincy.
Jeff Sullivan (25:22):
Something I thought was so a powerful
experience was the opportunity.
We went into a situation thatwas very heavy.
There was a loss of life and wewere kind of working through
with different relationships,and I had the opportunity to
have like a joint counselingsession.
(25:46):
It was the civilian who was apart of the staff there and she
had been a part of it a longtime.
It was myself as a chaplain andit was one of the army
psychologists, because the armydoes provide behavioral health.
There is a whole behavioralhealth system with, um, nurse
practitioners, you know,occupational therapists,
(26:06):
psychologists, psychiatrists,like all of that is in there,
and the medical part of the army.
And we both had the opportunityto to help a lady who had been
close to a suicide situation and, um, this was an interesting
dynamic because typically achaplain or a psychologist would
work separately, not together,and this just kind of like
(26:29):
happened in the situation thatit was and neither one of us had
ever done this together, and sowe were both like curious, like
well, how's this going to go,especially since he's you know
he's atheist and you know he andI know that we're in the same
unit together.
We're friends.
He's a very respectful person.
(26:50):
He's a great person.
You know that's the faithchoice that he's made at this
time.
And so you know we were thereand so we were going to serve
together through this.
And so you know he did a greatjob of what he does.
You know, a therapist asks theright questions, validates,
directs, all that good stuff.
And then you know it was myturn as a chaplain to kind of
(27:10):
wrap it up.
And you know, and so I did whata chaplain does, just affirmed
and spoke to her, and in the endI asked her hey, can I pray for
you?
And she says yeah, so I justprayed for her.
You know, just pray a blessingover someone, and just the way
that you would, as a pastor, didthe atheist pray with you, see,
and so that's the thing.
(27:30):
Later he comes, because this wasthe cool part, that's why I
have a lot of respect for him,because he doesn't have to say
any of this, but he does.
He comes back late and he says,you know, I didn't know what
that was going to be like,because I'd never worked with a
chaplain at the same time.
And then he says, when you said, can I pray for you, he was
like, should I get up and leaveand he's like no, that would
look really weird if I left forthis, let me just stay, you know
(27:52):
.
So he stays, I love it.
And you know what he's like.
I felt peace when you prayed forher and and so one of the other
soldiers like you mean, youfelt like she had some peace.
He's like, no, I felt peaceful.
(28:12):
It's like I understood whythere's chaplains and oh, that's
cool.
You know he says you didn'tconvert me, but but I see what
you do and I'm thankful for whatyou do and I appreciated it and
I what you do and I appreciatedit.
And I don't know, man, Iappreciate that you would say
that and that you would bevulnerable, like that and talk
about it.
And then I ask him how did I do?
Because sometimes pastors liketo give answers and not ask
(28:33):
questions when people talk.
And so he validated some of thework I was doing that's great
of the work I was doing.
That's great.
So, and that's the thing, whenyou're present in those
situations, now there's a bridgehe and I have and who knows how
God will use that Absolutely.
You know, I have no idea howGod's going to reveal to him.
Heredes (28:52):
Right, god's at work, obviously in us first, yeah, but
the 360, right, the personyou're ministering to, but those
all around and you never knowyou're ministering to, but those
all around and you never know.
Jeff Sullivan (29:00):
I love that.
I love hearing that.
It was very validating for meto.
Oh, this is why I'm a chaplain.
This is great.
Heredes (29:06):
I love that.
That's encouraging.
Yeah, I love it because in yourrole as an executive and
sitting on boards there's anadministrative executive
leadership kind of piece whichI'm sure this allows you to kind
of have this differentexpression and shepherding and
listening and caring which isand it's an outreach, it's not
self-serving or internal, in asense that you're not just, well
(29:29):
, it's this organization that'spaying me, no, it's out.
So thanks for doing that,thanks for inspiring, I think
the conversations we've had.
It's motivated and inspired ourteam.
Some of the folks who arelistening Tell me this to the
next generation of chaplains andthe future and us caring for
them.
And from locally in ourdepartments, with the sheriff or
(29:52):
overseas, who get deployedactive, not just reserve.
What's a word of advice,encouragement and hope to them.
Jeff Sullivan (30:00):
Yeah, for one.
To those who aren't yet in it,I would say chaplaincy is a
great opportunity.
It's actually a growingministry.
I mean you could call it also agrowing job field that, whether
it's a military chaplain or lawenforcement chaplain, they now
have marketplace chaplains,large corporations are hiring
(30:23):
chaplains and there's a lot ofgreat organizations that will
bring you on as a chaplain team,especially if you live in a
metropolitan area, and thenthey'll assign you to different
places hospital chaplains it'sactually its own profession.
So if you are a person who wantsto be in ministry but maybe
(30:43):
you're not able to have afull-time position as a pastor
at a church, that is a beautifulopportunity to do something
bivocational or to have all ofyour income come through
chaplaincy and then serve in achurch.
Also, I see that as opportunity.
Maybe if you're listening andyou're like in a smaller church
and, um, like, health costs areridiculous for staff and so,
(31:08):
like you say, man, we had like50, $60,000 to pay a youth
pastor or a part-time pastor,but we can't give their family
insurance because that's another30, 25,000.
25,000.
Well, if you're willing toshare your time with them and if
they are one of thesegovernment agencies, then
they're going to get healthcareat a much discounted rate and
(31:28):
then you can still have them onstaff.
But then they have this newworld of opportunity outside the
church and in the church.
But you can take care of peoplein a better way.
So love that.
It creates more flexibility Ifyour organization, if your
church, is willing to share theperson.
Because obviously that I meanas a reserve chaplain.
(31:49):
You're gone one Sunday a monthand then you have trainings and
you have a risk of deployment,but all your other time you're
there and you can really growfrom that, and you can really
grow from that your question waswhat would I say to?
Heredes (32:08):
you know, some lasting advice to a chaplain, yeah, the
chaplain in the future, theyoung ones, those entering, and
I think I love that.
Even some of those practical,tactical, but you know, even
fiscal and financial kind ofbenefits that could come along
could benefit a nonprofit, Couldbenefit a church and,
personally, families that areseeking opportunities to stay in
their gift lanes, to stay intheir strength, so that's
(32:29):
fantastic.
Any more perks like that Play Iknow you're not a recruiter for
them, Maybe not yet, Maybeafter this podcast.
No, I don't mind recruiting.
I think it's a great thing.
What others Throw down the listof some benefits to being a
military.
Jeff Sullivan (32:43):
I mean, obviously , healthcare is one of the
better.
The money's not going to begreat, it's a fixed amount, it's
good, it's supplemental.
But here you have Reserve oractive Reserve.
This is reserve right, probablyactive too, depending on how
much money you need to makewhere you live.
So cash usually isn't it, butthere's.
You know, the private sectoralways gives discounts.
(33:04):
There's, um, you know, a lot ofthose different.
If you're able to go and do theretirement levels, you can do
stuff like that.
Heredes (33:12):
Those, those are good things did they pay for the
education?
How did that?
How does that work um?
Jeff Sullivan (33:19):
They can.
There's different variations onthat.
They don't typically as achaplain.
They don't pay your educationbecause you can't become one
until you have your MDiv.
That means you've already paidfor it.
So now, if you were doing adegree after there's some things
Gotcha, you also like you'reeligible to pass on.
(33:40):
You also like, uh, you'reeligible to pass on, like, so if
you did qualify at a certainpoint for like gi bill or stuff
like that, you could pass it onto another family member so you
can end up having, like your ownson go or your own daughter go,
because you didn't need that,because you had already done all
the schooling when you enteredum.
So you know there's a lot oflittle benefits that come along
(34:01):
like that.
There's also great trainings,like they'll train you on,
depending on what you're ablefor, different things from
marriage and family to suicideprevention to leadership
development.
You can, you know, hospitalchaplaincy.
So if you get into thoseprograms, those they pay you,
they put you on orders, you getpaid to get trained and then you
(34:23):
come out with actualcertifications that you can use
to have chaplaincy careers inthe VA and other hospital
settings.
So, depending on what you'relooking to do, you can benefit
that way.
Very cool yeah.
Plus you get a cool uniform,I'm assuming.
It's always.
It's great to play, dress upand you have something for
(34:44):
Halloween.
You have something you know,all kinds of good stuff, you
know.
Heredes (34:49):
I love it.
Yeah, I love it, jeff.
Thank you so much for sharing.
We'll put some links out hereon tools and opportunities for
you to look into this If it'ssomething that strikes a chord,
if you want to reach out to Jeffand talk to him again, he's
doing this out of thewillingness and kindness of his
heart and his passion to serveothers, to serve community, but
serving our nation and with thegospel and with care and the way
(35:13):
Jesus would do it.
So I appreciate you sharing Anyfinal thoughts, any final words
before we hand it off to Colinhere.
Jeff Sullivan (35:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I would say, as you notice that
I know statistically, we allrecognize that the rise of the
nuns, the people who aren'tgoing to church, the people who
don't believe.
What I'm discovering and whatyou see in real life and what
you can see in studies, is it'snot that those nuns are against
(35:42):
hearing the gospel or hearingabout Christ, and so it's just.
There's a great opportunity togo outside the church and share
the gospel.
They're mostly people who areafraid of institutions.
They've, whether by experienceor by exposure, feel like the
church is hypocritical orthere's corruption, all those
different things.
What you realize is when youget into one-on-one
(36:03):
conversations, you're reallyable to break through that.
If you have the heart of thegospel and you share what it's
about and you share it with agenuineness, there is a great
openness in the next generationfor an authentic gospel, and so
chaplaincy puts you in thatspace and gives you that
opportunity.
Heredes (36:23):
I love it.
I love it.
It is missional.
It is missional at its best.
You don't have to leave thecountry, even to be
intentionally missional.
I love it, jeff.
Thanks again for what you'redoing.
Thank you, eric.
Jeff Sullivan (36:33):
Thank you, you do awesome stuff.
Heredes (36:35):
I enjoy it, we love it, love partnering and the
ministry we get to do togetherwhen we serve.
Hanging out in the 305.
Yeah With, there's a list ofaccolades that I can list.
I'll list some of them, becauseyou're from sitting on the
board of care large organization, from executive pastor an
amazing church in Miami GranadaChurch to chaplain for the
police department, for the armycurrently, and tons more I can
(00:24):
say.
But the most important is youwere when I was a teenager.
You were one of my pastors.
Way back right and that justmakes either you old or me, I
don't know crazy because wetalked about this but way back
in the day, in start, earlyministry days, you were doing it
, you were pastoring.
You were church planning.
(00:45):
You were doing it, you werepastoring, you were church
planning you were.
Jeff Sullivan (00:47):
Is that right?
And that seems like a differentlifetime ago, doesn't it?
It does, it does Out in theWest.
Heredes (00:53):
Kendall.
And now did you parachute intoMiami?
Jeff Sullivan (00:56):
No, Well.
No, I came and married a Cuban,so is that parachuting?
Or would that be sailing intoMiami?
I think I'm an illegal alien toMiami.
I crossed the border.
Heredes (01:11):
So okay, yeah, that's different than parachuting in.
Once you get into the Cuban,you got into the Cuban mafia
from the beginning.
Jeff Sullivan (01:19):
Yes, yeah, I got in, I bought in, I came in to be
Cuban and then I started church.
I love it, so that's kind ofthe way it played out.
Heredes (01:27):
All to say to our listeners, jeff and I go way
back and you're listening fromJeff Sullivan and currently XP
at Granada Church, an incredibleplace here in Miami.
If you're in the area, ifyou're looking for a place
incredible people you need tostop by.
Our team has been inpartnership and working in lots
(01:49):
of overlap and family andfriends who are here, but it's
exciting because today we'retalking specifically about
something kind of dear to hisheart and something that I've
explored as well that I havefamily who are exploring in the
service per se, but that'schaplaincy.
So tell us a little bit firstyour journey into that pastoring
(02:11):
and now chaplaincy and doingboth and and how that works.
Jeff Sullivan (02:14):
Yeah, it's very interesting because I've only
been a chaplain for two yearsand I'm 47 now, so I got started
at the age of 45, which ispretty late for military careers
.
Typically you start young.
That way you can be young andfit and do all the stuff you're
supposed to do.
Heredes (02:34):
Which I want to talk.
That's a great misconceptioneven to start with, because most
people assume you may have tostart in what?
In your 20s maybe, or in your30s Not necessarily For
chaplaincy, I would guessprobably 30s would be ideal,
because then you can't start.
Jeff Sullivan (02:50):
But so young because it is a requirement for
military chaplains to have aMaster's of Divinity.
So you figure, if you've gotfour years of school plus three
years of school, you're lookingat seven.
The earliest you could be isprobably like 25.
And then they need two yearsexperience.
So if you just had it as adream right out of high school
(03:10):
to do it, you still wouldn't doit for 10 years.
So you know, so there is some,you know, part of that that just
is already going to make you alittle bit older in it.
But, um, I think there's anadvantage to being older in in
the chaplaincy because there isa level of life experience you
know.
So, like I have a son who is 23years old.
(03:30):
Wow, the soldiers that I'mtalking to are that age, some
even younger, that's so.
So it allows you to have moreof a father figure, have a
little more wisdom, to sharelife experience, understanding
of what, what's important or not, than when you're younger.
Like even myself at 30 is notgoing to see the world the way I
do at 47.
(03:51):
It's just you just understandlife differently at that point.
So it does help being in thereas you're older.
Heredes (03:59):
I love that and I want to get into some details To our
listeners.
I asked Jeff to kind of put onthe chaplain hat.
There's so many things he'sgreat at and people he oversees
and how he pastors and leads,but I wanted to talk about this
one because in talking to youthere's a need Right, maybe for
(04:21):
your local police department, orthere's hospitals, the need for
good chaplaincy and good care.
In that sense, how did you kindof come into it and break it
down a little bit?
What does a chaplain do?
Jeff Sullivan (04:35):
Oh, so, I would say, let's say I was talking to
someone that I want to encourageyou to be a chaplain, or maybe
you're thinking about should Ibe a chaplain?
So first, it's a newopportunity to serve.
If you're service-minded, thatit's kind of built into your DNA
, or you're part of ministry,that you'll have opportunities
(04:56):
to serve people.
You like to be in that spotwhen things are rough, that
you're like.
You know, I like to be theperson people talk to.
I like the one who brings hope.
You know, if you're, you know,that kind of person, then
chaplaincy is just an ideal rolefor you, because the most
crucial moments of chaplaincyare when things are difficult.
(05:19):
A couple of recent examplesthat I could share.
So I'm a volunteer at the CoralGables Police Department as a
chaplain, because theirchaplaincy program is not paid,
it's all volunteer-based andthere's a few other pastors and
a Catholic priest and a rabbi.
We're on a team together toserve the local police
department here.
Heredes (05:40):
Is that standard, Jeff?
The volunteer forces, it variesit depends.
Jeff Sullivan (05:42):
Is that standard, jeff?
The volunteer forces it varies,it depends.
So maybe, if you're like,miami-dade County has paid
chaplains and volunteerchaplains.
Gotcha Broward Sheriff'sDepartment has a great chaplain
team, so it's really dependenton how that department operates.
So many of them are volunteer,based on just budgetary.
(06:05):
But you might be living in acounty or you know a
municipality that they'vealready budgeted to have a
chaplain and so that would be apaid position and it's worth a
paid position because there isso much a chaplain can do.
And then I think, on avolunteer level it comes to be
where you, your chaplain, does.
(06:26):
What's the, what's needed to bedone, whereas what?
So there's a lot of room for,you know, possibility when
someone's full-time, but, um,the a great value, I think in.
Let's just speak as from myexperience as a volunteer police
chaplain, you have tounderstand the police department
to me is a higher riskorganization than the military,
(06:51):
because as a military chaplain,the armed forces go somewhere
and fight an enemy somewhereelse and then come home.
The police department, theirbattle is in their own
neighborhood, their backyard.
And it's, and there's a hightension because most stops and
(07:11):
interactions are fine but youdon't know which one's going to
not be the one.
You don't know which one is theone that is risky or dangerous
or is going to be very hostile,very hostile, and it could be as
much as what would normally be.
A sweet old lady in theneighborhood could be just
chewing out because they feellike they have the ability to
(07:32):
yell and scream, or it could be,you know, real life-threatening
danger.
So there's an on-edge in thepolice department and then
there's not a separation becauseyou drive home.
You're driving home a few miles, you're not deploying and
leaving it and saying, whew,that place, that part, and
that's why it is such a verydifficult job.
(08:07):
That's why you know police workis very hard, not just the
life-threatening part, you know,because there's that risk.
But you know most officers, youknow aren't going to have shots
fired at them or have to shoot.
That's not a constant, constantthing, but it is a constant
stress, emotional, uh.
(08:27):
It's constant conflicthappening with whoever you pull
over it's.
It's so managing that on aday-to-day uh is difficult and
then, um, you see the worst ofeverything in your neighborhood.
So when the police are called,it's because something terrible.
So you don't see best of things, you see the worst of things
and it colors your world.
So police officers really needchaplains to bring hope, to be a
(08:53):
confidential listener, to be anencourager, to be on their team
, to know that there's a placeto be.
And I would definitely encourageif you, you know, are a pastor,
wherever you're hearing this,check in and see what is the
situation like at your policedepartment.
(09:14):
Do they have a volunteerchaplaincy?
Are they looking for more?
You know at first, you know ifthey don't know you and you
don't know them just likeanybody else, if you show up at
my door, I'm not giving you ajob, but if you know, oh okay,
there is a need.
Let me start to lay somegroundwork to prepare for that.
(09:35):
For me it was volunteering oncommittees, spent time on
different committees, you know,like anti-crime or neighborhood
watch, stuff like that.
Then you establish to thepolice that you are a citizen
who cares and that you're apastor who would be available,
and then from there then youhave enough trust that they
(09:55):
invite you into it.
You know, if it's not like anopen position you apply for a
lot of times it's relational,but I think every church should
look at its community and say isthis something that we could be
doing?
Heredes (10:08):
Pete.
I love that.
Jeff, you've done itbivocationally, in a sense that
you've maintained full-timeministry, always serving the
local church involved.
How is that possible?
How would you encourage someonewho's on a staff at a church or
someone who needs to look in,so it's's not a conflict or wait
?
Is there different careerpursuits or a calling?
Talk to me about that.
(10:30):
How have you managed it?
How do you encourage others tolook at it for police, but also
for military?
Jeff Sullivan (10:35):
I would say a lot of that has to do with how the
church, what expectations thechurch has for its pastor.
I'm very thankful at Granadathere is a very openness here to
allow pastors to find ways tobe ministers in the community
and not just be pastors at thechurch.
And so having that type ofmargin in your staff is good so
(11:04):
that, like for me, that becomesa whole new outlet of ministry.
It doesn't always translatedirectly to church attendance or
things like that, but it doescreate a high level of goodwill
of my church in the community.
So now all the police officersknow the pastor at that church
volunteers his time for them.
(11:24):
Same for my city.
Commissioners know that that'sthe case.
So when you talk about thatcivic local government which is
very important to the localchurch, how you pastors count
(11:46):
for church growth, it does go along way in community
involvement and opportunity.
On the military side there's acouple advantages this could be
for a church staff, church staffFor one.
(12:09):
For me personally I didn'trealize to what level it would
expand my own leadership andcommunication and pastoral care.
Some of it I mean when you'rein the Army Reserve.
Army Reserve is training,training, training, training,
training.
Now a lot of it's sittingaround at PowerPoint.
You know, if you talk to anyonein the military, it's death by
PowerPoint or something they'llsay that you know.
So when you're experiencingthat, you're like, well, this
isn't really teaching me in sucha way that's going to make me a
(12:30):
better person, but the way itdoes is.
As a pastor for many years, Iwas always surrounded by church
people and then, as growing up,you have seminary, you have your
MDF, so you insulate yourselffrom the world at such a high
(12:52):
level that you're only used totalking to Christians or people
who are already walking in theroom exploring Christianity, and
you're placed in the generalpopulation of the US military,
even though a heavy percent ofthat does check the box
Christian.
As opposed to other religions,it's a little different, right,
(13:14):
they're not going to church,they don't know their pastor's
name, they don't have you know,and so now you're having daily
conversations.
Heredes (13:21):
Now you're in the world , not of the world, but you're
in the world Exactly.
You're hearing dailyconversations.
Now you're in the world, not ofthe world, but you're in the
world Exactly.
You're hearing it, feeling it,seeing it.
You're having the locker roomtalk slash.
Water cooler talk slash.
I'm sure you've heardeverything in between.
Jeff Sullivan (13:34):
Well then you end up having to really start to
speak differently, because youcan't just say well, the Bible
says this blank and this versethis and this, because now you
have to talk to someone who'snot using the Bible as their
primary reference point.
They're 40, yeah, so it teachesa level of apologetics.
I love that, but not a debate,apologetics or not in my case.
(13:55):
I would hope other chaplainsthe same.
Heredes (14:07):
You don't go to the debate people because it doesn't
really do that, but you startto learn how they're thinking
and how you can express thegospel in ways that match what
they're looking for and how toserve, or strategy in a rational
way to explain something thatto us is right put into
Christianese Right, weunderstand it and it's.
I love that.
I love that.
Now, with that said, obviously,jeff, christian evangelical
pastor, some taboos here.
With chaplaincy, all arewelcome, all are open.
(14:29):
There's again even, I guess,laws and legalities here, but
All religions welcome to becomea chaplain.
Jeff Sullivan (14:37):
Yes.
Heredes (14:38):
Tell me about that.
Is there any conflict there?
Is that good, bad ugly?
How's that handled?
Because a Buddhist or a priestis going to maybe handle things
different than a you name itPentecostal, presbyterian or
pastor.
Jeff Sullivan (14:54):
Yeah.
So my only experience is theArmy Reserve, which is an
excellent chaplaincy program.
So it is interfaith.
So in the Army Reserve you willhave predominantly, though
you're going to have ProtestantChristian, which is a huge
(15:16):
majority of the population, aswell as the chaplains.
Then you will have a smallpopulation of Roman Catholic.
You'll have a very smallminority of rabbi or imam and
then you'll have an occasionalother, whether that might be
Hindu, buddhist, sikh, anythingoutside of those normal, what we
(15:41):
expect in the normal population, so those kind of outliers.
So it is still predominantly aChristian thing.
But you do have to have theflexibility to work with others.
So if you're very rigid aboutyour doctrine, you're going to
have a hard time servingalongside of other people.
Your doctrine you're going tohave a hard time serving
alongside of other people.
You do have to realize that,hey, I'm working in a situation
(16:04):
that's outside of my church, soI have to be willing to play
fair in the sandbox with othersthat it's not my place.
You know, at my church I cansay this is what we say, what we
do, because any of you come in,you've already agreed to that.
Because you're saying I'mcoming into your church, pete,
my house, my rules right.
And if you come in, you'vealready agreed to that, because
you're saying I'm coming intoyour church, pete, my house, my
rules right, jared, right.
If I'm coming into the army,that's not my place.
(16:25):
I am in this place.
That is not a religious setting, and so I'm bringing it in, but
I have to realize there's otherpeople in the room that I have
to be, you know, play fair with.
Now, one good thing, even inthe Army Code of Doctrine, is
that, as a you know, so achaplain is endorsed by a
certain denomination.
So the Army partners with thedenominations, which is part of
(16:48):
a requirement, correct, correct.
Heredes (16:49):
There's the MDiv at all levels, even for police Police
is different.
Jeff Sullivan (16:53):
Different Police is different.
Departments are able to settheir own rules.
Heredes (16:57):
Gotcha.
Jeff Sullivan (16:57):
So a ministry, even a bachelor's or a Bible
degree or even experience inministry over a period of time,
it's whatever that chief ofpolice wants, if he just thinks
you're a cool guy and you do agood job, there's no rules to
them.
Heredes (17:09):
So maybe even Colin, our co-host here, colin, you may
qualify.
Colin, I know you're listeningright now.
You couldn't be in Miami withus, but I know you're going to
take a break right now anddefend yourself right now.
But I think you're cool enough,man.
I think you may do it.
You can do it.
You can do it right.
Jeff Sullivan (17:24):
Well, if the chief likes him, we'll see.
But in the Army there's apartnership.
So you have your endorser,which is your denomination.
So whether you're Presbyterian,baptist, assemblies of God,
catholic, whatever, that yourdenomination will validate.
You say this is a qualifiedcandidate of our faith, and then
(17:44):
they'll recommend you to thearmy and then the army will
commission you.
So you have, basically you havetwo oversights the army has the
general rule and then you haveyour specific denominational.
So the army will never ask meto violate my denominational
rules.
So, whatever those might be,particularly I do not have to
(18:05):
violate my own faith to serveothers, gotcha.
So the way they describe it inthere is that you either perform
or provide.
So I either perform thereligious service for you or I
provide it.
So let's say you believesomething different than me,
then it's just my job as yourchaplain to say you know what?
(18:25):
Let me find a chaplain whobelieves what you believe and
I'll contact you to them.
So that allows.
You know, I know a lot ofpeople worry about some of the
social changes.
You know.
Heredes (18:31):
How does that happen?
Have you seen some of that?
Has some of that happened?
Jeff Sullivan (18:34):
socially.
Well, the general populationhas changed so much, so, yeah,
and the army is just the generalpopulation, it's not different,
it's the same as the generalpopulation, you find, and it's
just a cross-section of that invarious ways.
So the beliefs will be verysimilar to what everyone else
has.
Heredes (18:52):
What have you seen, jeff, in a time of hurt, time of
need, I think, as creation, ashumankind, there's a certain
need and there's a certain void,there's a certain what have you
seen there?
Because at that, at thoselevels, have denominations?
Have there been any obstacleshave there been?
Are people open?
Has it been a good witnessingor gospel opportunity, like what
(19:14):
are some of those stories orthings you've heard and
experienced?
What are some?
Jeff Sullivan (19:17):
of those stories or things you've heard and
experienced, I would say thisAlmost no one and no one by my
experience, and probably almostno one will reject you saying
can I pray for you?
So simply pray for people.
If they're going through a hardtime, just say, let's stop and
(19:39):
pray for it right now.
And I've always findoverwhelming positive response
to that.
People say, oh, thank you,chaplain, I feel so much more at
peace, I feel so much.
You know even just that moment.
If you realize, if you're justgoing to affirm someone through
prayer and pray God's blessingin their life and pray for the
things that are bothering them,you're going to gain that
relational equity and and you'regoing to invite Christ's
(20:01):
presence into that moment andthat's going to mean a lot to
them.
And then your example as a goodChristian man or woman People
watch you.
They want to know does thisperson speak differently, look
differently, act differently?
Do they have other people'sbest interests in mind?
(20:22):
Do they look like Christ in away that they would see it?
And then if you're doing thosethings, you've now earned the
respect of your words.
And so then your chapel serviceor your Bible study you give
out, or whatever, now people arereceptive to it or whatever.
(20:43):
Now people are receptive to it.
So I would say what would bedifferent in the general
population now than maybe, say,when I was young, is that people
are very open, so they don'twant something to be too closed
off.
So if you keep things open-endedor you focus on the positive,
you have a much greater chanceof working with them towards
something and you can bring theminto a knowledge of Christ or
(21:05):
bring them to a recognition ofChrist.
If you try to close off a lotof boundaries, people get
anxious about that.
They don't want to be kind ofpinned into something, they want
to be able to pick.
And I know for a lot of peoplethat's like, well, that's not
the truth, and you're like that.
They don't want to be kind ofpinned into something they they
want to be able to pick.
And I know for a lot of peoplethat's like, well, that's not
the truth, and you're like, well, you could still bring the
truth in.
You know, absolutely.
(21:26):
You just gotta, I think, bemore aware of of what's going to
gain ground with them or orwhat's going to end your
conversation quicker.
Heredes (21:34):
That's good.
That's good.
Jeff, tell me you know we liketo talk at the podcast a lot
about the wins, success, butalso sometimes failures and give
us a time wherein, okay, thiswent south, this was difficult,
you learned something and giveus a story of like man, god did
this or God used me and the teamfor, can you share an
experience that comes to mind?
Jeff Sullivan (22:28):
Sure, I guess one of the easy things to do in
like a military chaplain role,or even in a police chaplain
role, is, like your desire toblend in and to be part of the
group can be so, and so yousteer away from a little bit of
boldness, you steer away frommaybe being awkward and asking
to pray.
You know you steer away and youjust want to kind of, you know,
not be a officer or soldier.
They have those and they havetraining for that and that's
what they do, and so.
So a failure that that Iexperienced is I'll find myself
realizing, oh, this, this entireevent, or this entire day, all
I did was, you know, try to notbe weird or not be, you know,
(22:53):
abrasive, and then I ended upnot being to chaplain he a peer
at their level, where you'recoming in with a level one
spiritual authority, butauthority for care and
leadership and right.
Heredes (23:05):
Does a chaplain rank higher than a soldier?
Does that play into any of thisor no?
Chaplains?
Jeff Sullivan (23:11):
have ranks, they're all officers, they all
are officers.
They have rank.
But really that rank, the rank,really doesn't have anything to
do.
You don't give orders to anyonein your unit.
You have, like an assistant, achaplain assistant or two that
you are responsible to and yougive orders to them.
But like I don't technicallyever order other soldiers to do
(23:31):
or not do I am a rank, I can,you know, do that you know, and
they can't, you know, disrespectme in a certain way.
But that's not.
I don't have any, you knowmission to be giving people
charge over, and even within thechaplaincy there's levels, but
that's usually just for.
Yeah, I have a you know someone, a major, who I report to and
(23:56):
he is, you know, my boss.
He can oversee me, tell me whatnot to do, what to do, gotcha.
So he outranks me and does that.
But typically in the militaryyou don't call chaplains by
their rank, you just call themchaplain Bingo.
So that's the goal is that we'dhave one job and it's not based
on rank.
Heredes (24:13):
Tell me before the success story Mm-hmm, do you
have to go to boot camp?
I'm sure that's everybody'squestion on the podcast.
Jeff Sullivan (24:22):
There is an officer's training, something
called BOLIC, basic OfficerLeadership Course.
The chaplains go through AirForce, navy and Army.
They do it differently.
The Army it's 13 weeks.
It does include about fourweeks of basic training type
stuff, but it is not the samelevel as a soldier, like the
18-year-old signing up for thedrill sergeant.
Heredes (24:43):
Is it a five-minute mile or something crazy like
that?
Jeff Sullivan (24:46):
No, you don't have to be in that great of
shape.
Unfortunately, the standard forYou're in shape, man.
Heredes (24:51):
You're doing great.
Are you doing like pull-upsevery day and doing?
Jeff Sullivan (24:54):
That's my choice to try to be at the top of the
list, not the bottom of the list.
I love it, but you can the.
The minimum requirements forofficers in the army reserve is
pretty low.
If you're not injured and youyou do your basic mobility,
you'll be able to do it.
Gotcha, you know.
So it's not, and if you justput a little bit of effort
you'll.
You'll get yourself there ifyou aren't there, so that's not
(25:15):
really a huge, huge obstaclecool story.
Heredes (25:17):
Cool story maybe god's done something you've
experienced and seen god dothrough the chaplaincy.
Jeff Sullivan (25:22):
Something I thought was so a powerful
experience was the opportunity.
We went into a situation thatwas very heavy.
There was a loss of life and wewere kind of working through
with different relationships,and I had the opportunity to
have like a joint counselingsession.
(25:46):
It was the civilian who was apart of the staff there and she
had been a part of it a longtime.
It was myself as a chaplain andit was one of the army
psychologists, because the armydoes provide behavioral health.
There is a whole behavioralhealth system with, um, nurse
practitioners, you know,occupational therapists,
(26:06):
psychologists, psychiatrists,like all of that is in there,
and the medical part of the army.
And we both had the opportunityto to help a lady who had been
close to a suicide situation and, um, this was an interesting
dynamic because typically achaplain or a psychologist would
work separately, not together,and this just kind of like
(26:29):
happened in the situation thatit was and neither one of us had
ever done this together, and sowe were both like curious, like
well, how's this going to go,especially since he's you know
he's atheist and you know he andI know that we're in the same
unit together.
We're friends.
He's a very respectful person.
(26:50):
He's a great person.
You know that's the faithchoice that he's made at this
time.
And so you know we were thereand so we were going to serve
together through this.
And so you know he did a greatjob of what he does.
You know, a therapist asks theright questions, validates,
directs, all that good stuff.
And then you know it was myturn as a chaplain to kind of
(27:10):
wrap it up.
And you know, and so I did whata chaplain does, just affirmed
and spoke to her, and in the endI asked her hey, can I pray for
you?
And she says yeah, so I justprayed for her.
You know, just pray a blessingover someone, and just the way
that you would, as a pastor, didthe atheist pray with you, see,
and so that's the thing.
(27:30):
Later he comes, because this wasthe cool part, that's why I
have a lot of respect for him,because he doesn't have to say
any of this, but he does.
He comes back late and he says,you know, I didn't know what
that was going to be like,because I'd never worked with a
chaplain at the same time.
And then he says, when you said, can I pray for you, he was
like, should I get up and leaveand he's like no, that would
look really weird if I left forthis, let me just stay, you know
(27:52):
.
So he stays, I love it.
And you know what he's like.
I felt peace when you prayed forher and and so one of the other
soldiers like you mean, youfelt like she had some peace.
He's like, no, I felt peaceful.
(28:12):
It's like I understood whythere's chaplains and oh, that's
cool.
You know he says you didn'tconvert me, but but I see what
you do and I'm thankful for whatyou do and I appreciated it and
I what you do and I appreciatedit.
And I don't know, man, Iappreciate that you would say
that and that you would bevulnerable, like that and talk
about it.
And then I ask him how did I do?
Because sometimes pastors liketo give answers and not ask
(28:33):
questions when people talk.
And so he validated some of thework I was doing that's great
of the work I was doing.
That's great.
So, and that's the thing, whenyou're present in those
situations, now there's a bridgehe and I have and who knows how
God will use that Absolutely.
You know, I have no idea howGod's going to reveal to him.
Heredes (28:52):
Right, god's at work, obviously in us first, yeah, but
the 360, right, the personyou're ministering to, but those
all around and you never knowyou're ministering to, but those
all around and you never know.
Jeff Sullivan (29:00):
I love that.
I love hearing that.
It was very validating for meto.
Oh, this is why I'm a chaplain.
This is great.
Heredes (29:06):
I love that.
That's encouraging.
Yeah, I love it because in yourrole as an executive and
sitting on boards there's anadministrative executive
leadership kind of piece whichI'm sure this allows you to kind
of have this differentexpression and shepherding and
listening and caring which isand it's an outreach, it's not
self-serving or internal, in asense that you're not just, well
(29:29):
, it's this organization that'spaying me, no, it's out.
So thanks for doing that,thanks for inspiring, I think
the conversations we've had.
It's motivated and inspired ourteam.
Some of the folks who arelistening Tell me this to the
next generation of chaplains andthe future and us caring for
them.
And from locally in ourdepartments, with the sheriff or
(29:52):
overseas, who get deployedactive, not just reserve.
What's a word of advice,encouragement and hope to them.
Jeff Sullivan (30:00):
Yeah, for one.
To those who aren't yet in it,I would say chaplaincy is a
great opportunity.
It's actually a growingministry.
I mean you could call it also agrowing job field that, whether
it's a military chaplain or lawenforcement chaplain, they now
have marketplace chaplains,large corporations are hiring
(30:23):
chaplains and there's a lot ofgreat organizations that will
bring you on as a chaplain team,especially if you live in a
metropolitan area, and thenthey'll assign you to different
places hospital chaplains it'sactually its own profession.
So if you are a person who wantsto be in ministry but maybe
(30:43):
you're not able to have afull-time position as a pastor
at a church, that is a beautifulopportunity to do something
bivocational or to have all ofyour income come through
chaplaincy and then serve in achurch.
Also, I see that as opportunity.
Maybe if you're listening andyou're like in a smaller church
and, um, like, health costs areridiculous for staff and so,
(31:08):
like you say, man, we had like50, $60,000 to pay a youth
pastor or a part-time pastor,but we can't give their family
insurance because that's another30, 25,000.
25,000.
Well, if you're willing toshare your time with them and if
they are one of thesegovernment agencies, then
they're going to get healthcareat a much discounted rate and
(31:28):
then you can still have them onstaff.
But then they have this newworld of opportunity outside the
church and in the church.
But you can take care of peoplein a better way.
So love that.
It creates more flexibility Ifyour organization, if your
church, is willing to share theperson.
Because obviously that I meanas a reserve chaplain.
(31:49):
You're gone one Sunday a monthand then you have trainings and
you have a risk of deployment,but all your other time you're
there and you can really growfrom that, and you can really
grow from that your question waswhat would I say to?
Heredes (32:08):
you know, some lasting advice to a chaplain, yeah, the
chaplain in the future, theyoung ones, those entering, and
I think I love that.
Even some of those practical,tactical, but you know, even
fiscal and financial kind ofbenefits that could come along
could benefit a nonprofit, Couldbenefit a church and,
personally, families that areseeking opportunities to stay in
their gift lanes, to stay intheir strength, so that's
(32:29):
fantastic.
Any more perks like that Play Iknow you're not a recruiter for
them, Maybe not yet, Maybeafter this podcast.
No, I don't mind recruiting.
I think it's a great thing.
What others Throw down the listof some benefits to being a
military.
Jeff Sullivan (32:43):
I mean, obviously , healthcare is one of the
better.
The money's not going to begreat, it's a fixed amount, it's
good, it's supplemental.
But here you have Reserve oractive Reserve.
This is reserve right, probablyactive too, depending on how
much money you need to makewhere you live.
So cash usually isn't it, butthere's.
You know, the private sectoralways gives discounts.
(33:04):
There's, um, you know, a lot ofthose different.
If you're able to go and do theretirement levels, you can do
stuff like that.
Heredes (33:12):
Those, those are good things did they pay for the
education?
How did that?
How does that work um?
Jeff Sullivan (33:19):
They can.
There's different variations onthat.
They don't typically as achaplain.
They don't pay your educationbecause you can't become one
until you have your MDiv.
That means you've already paidfor it.
So now, if you were doing adegree after there's some things
Gotcha, you also like you'reeligible to pass on.
(33:40):
You also like, uh, you'reeligible to pass on, like, so if
you did qualify at a certainpoint for like gi bill or stuff
like that, you could pass it onto another family member so you
can end up having, like your ownson go or your own daughter go,
because you didn't need that,because you had already done all
the schooling when you enteredum.
So you know there's a lot oflittle benefits that come along
(34:01):
like that.
There's also great trainings,like they'll train you on,
depending on what you're ablefor, different things from
marriage and family to suicideprevention to leadership
development.
You can, you know, hospitalchaplaincy.
So if you get into thoseprograms, those they pay you,
they put you on orders, you getpaid to get trained and then you
(34:23):
come out with actualcertifications that you can use
to have chaplaincy careers inthe VA and other hospital
settings.
So, depending on what you'relooking to do, you can benefit
that way.
Very cool yeah.
Plus you get a cool uniform,I'm assuming.
It's always.
It's great to play, dress upand you have something for
(34:44):
Halloween.
You have something you know,all kinds of good stuff, you
know.
Heredes (34:49):
I love it.
Yeah, I love it, jeff.
Thank you so much for sharing.
We'll put some links out hereon tools and opportunities for
you to look into this If it'ssomething that strikes a chord,
if you want to reach out to Jeffand talk to him again, he's
doing this out of thewillingness and kindness of his
heart and his passion to serveothers, to serve community, but
serving our nation and with thegospel and with care and the way
(35:13):
Jesus would do it.
So I appreciate you sharing Anyfinal thoughts, any final words
before we hand it off to Colinhere.
Jeff Sullivan (35:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I would say, as you notice that
I know statistically, we allrecognize that the rise of the
nuns, the people who aren'tgoing to church, the people who
don't believe.
What I'm discovering and whatyou see in real life and what
you can see in studies, is it'snot that those nuns are against
(35:42):
hearing the gospel or hearingabout Christ, and so it's just.
There's a great opportunity togo outside the church and share
the gospel.
They're mostly people who areafraid of institutions.
They've, whether by experienceor by exposure, feel like the
church is hypocritical orthere's corruption, all those
different things.
What you realize is when youget into one-on-one
(36:03):
conversations, you're reallyable to break through that.
If you have the heart of thegospel and you share what it's
about and you share it with agenuineness, there is a great
openness in the next generationfor an authentic gospel, and so
chaplaincy puts you in thatspace and gives you that
opportunity.
Heredes (36:23):
I love it.
I love it.
It is missional.
It is missional at its best.
You don't have to leave thecountry, even to be
intentionally missional.
I love it, jeff.
Thanks again for what you'redoing.
Thank you, eric.
Jeff Sullivan (36:33):
Thank you, you do awesome stuff.
Heredes (36:35):
I enjoy it, we love it, love partnering and the
ministry we get to do togetherwhen we serve.
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