December 19, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Bruce Norris sits down with Sean O’Toole, CEO & Founder of PropertyRadar, to discuss his journey from data and technology into real estate. Sean shares lessons learned from market cycles, his perspective on AI’s growing role in the industry, and what investors should consider as the market faces potential long-term shifts.
Sean OToole is CEO & Founder of PropertyRadar, the property data and owner information platform real estate pros have trusted since 2007 to do billions of dollars in deals.
Sean got his start with data in Silicon Valley during the dot-com boom. After the dot-com bubble, Sean flipped properties for five years, and with data-informed insights, got out right before the housing bubble burst.
Sean launched ForeclosureRadar in early 2007 before anyone had heard of the foreclosure crisis.
In 2013, he relaunched ForeclosureRadar as PropertyRadar, a greatly expanded property data and owner information platform serving a broad audience of real estate professionals and property-centric businesses.
Today, PropertyRadar remains the go-to platform for data-driven real professionals intent on leveraging comprehensive property data and owner information to grow their business directly.
In this episode:
- Bruce Norris welcomes Sean O’Toole, CEO & Founder of PropertyRadar.
- Sean shares his early career path and how his background in data led him into real estate.
- Lessons learned from navigating challenges as both an investor and entrepreneur.
- Sean’s outlook on the housing market and the possibility of a long-term correction.
- How AI and technology are reshaping real estate decision-making.
- Leadership insights and the importance of strategic planning in uncertain markets.
The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669. For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.
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Narrator (00:01):
Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a
show committed to bringing youinsights from thought leaders
shaping the real estateindustry. In each episode, we'll
dive into conversations withindustry experts and local
insiders, all aimed at helpingyou thrive in an ever-changing
real estate market. continuingthe legacy that Bruce Norris
(00:24):
created, sharing valuableknowledge, and empowering you on
your real estate journey.
Whether you're a seasoned pro ora newcomer, this is your go-to
source for insider tips, markettrends and success strategies.
Here's your host, Craig Evans.
Joey Romero (00:43):
Welcome everybody to The Norris Group Real Estate
Podcast. Today, we have a coupleof special guest week. First of
all, we have a special guesthost, Bruce Norris, you guys
might have heard of that guy andSean O'Toole. Sean O'Toole is
CEO and Founder ofPropertyRadar, the property data
and owner information platformreal estate pros have trusted
(01:05):
since 2007 to do billions ofdollars in deals. Sean got a
start with data in SiliconValley during dot-com boom.
After dot-com bubble, Seanflipped properties for five
years and with data, informedinsights got out right before
the housing bubble burst. Seanlaunched ForeclosureRadar in
early 2007 before anyone hadheard of the foreclosure crisis,
(01:26):
in 2013 he relaunchedForeclosureRadar as
PropertyRadar, a greatlyexpanded property data and owner
information platform serving abroad audience of real estate
professionals and propertycentric businesses today,
PropertyRadar remains the go toplatform for Data Driven Real
Estate Professionals intent onleveraging comprehensive
(01:47):
property data and ownerinformation to grow their
businesses directly. Let'swelcome Sean O'Toole and that
other guy, Bruce Norris.
Bruce Norris (01:54):
Hi, thank you for joining us today. We have a very
special guest. Sean O'Toole.
Sean, how are you?
Sean O'Toole (02:00):
I'm doing awesome.
Bruce Norris (02:01):
We go way back.
Just a very brief introduction.
You started ForeclosureRadar ,which morphed into PropertyRadar
You and I had the the idea go tothe Library of Congress and look
at data for two or three days,and that was just a lot of fun.
(02:24):
We got to know each other prettywell and always respected. You,
My son, Aaron, got to work foryour company at the end of his
life. So that was pretty cool.
Sean O'Toole (02:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely loved it having Aaronhere for sure.
Bruce Norris (02:39):
You and I spent some time every year when we
went to the library of not theLibrary of Congress, but Nixon
library, and we had someinteresting conversations. And
one of the things you mentioned,and I'm going to kind of go down
that rabbit hole for a second,something important happened on
your 10th birthday, your dad hadspecifically said there was
(03:00):
something special about what hewanted to get you for that 10th
birthday. What was the birthdaygift and how did that impact
your life?
Sean O'Toole (03:08):
Yeah, it was, I was 10 years old as an Apple II
computer actually didn't get itfor my birthday. But, you know,
it was my 10th, 10th year. Sofrom I was 10 years old, and
they bought it, ostensibly fortheir business, my parents
business, but my mom's officewas in my bedroom. I had kind of
a big, big bedroom. So when Iwas at school, she would go in
(03:30):
there and do the books andstuff. And that was a mistake.
Putting that computer in a 10year bedroom started my history
of late nights and staying uptill two, 3am and impacted my
school a little, but I still didokay.
Bruce Norris (03:46):
How did, how did that impact your life? That
computer?
Sean O'Toole (03:50):
Oh, that, that computer, just, you know,
changed everything for me. Ilearned to program. You know,
when I stand there wasn't muchto do on a computer, yeah, like
people, younger people probablywon't understand that today, but
you know that early Apple IIcomputer, there was, you know,
very little to do on it, right?
There's only a couple ofprograms. There was a couple of
really terrible games, and, youknow, so there just wasn't much
(04:15):
to do. And so you took upprogramming. And I remember, I
was probably 12, my dad camehome and I had the lid off, and
I was soldering inside this, youknow, I think it was even back
then, it was probably $4,000 soyou think about that in 1978.
Bruce Norris (04:35):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (04:36):
Was a lot of money. My dad freaked out, but,
but it made the computer a lotbetter and faster, and then he
kind of let me do whatever Iwant after that.
Bruce Norris (04:44):
How did you figure that out?
Sean O'Toole (04:48):
Bite Magazine was kind of my Bible as a kid, and I
remember the first time I readbite magazine, I understood
maybe five words and but I readthat magazine. Ann, it was
thick. It was like this thick,you know, like three quarter
inch thick magazine. It's justhuge back in the day, and I
would read it cover to cover,even though I didn't understand
(05:10):
anything. And over time, Iunderstood more and more. And,
you know, by 12 I had the thingapart. Was soldering. It was a
speed upgrade.
Bruce Norris (05:21):
And I was thinking about what $4,000 meant back
then, because I think a house inCalifornia cost about 40 grand,
like $10,000 No wonder your dadwas going, what the heck?
Sean O'Toole (05:34):
Yeah, he wasn't a happy.
Bruce Norris (05:37):
when your son turned 10. Did you go through
that same process and say, Ithink I'm going to get him
something that might bemeaningful?
Sean O'Toole (05:46):
Yeah. So that was a big as he was approaching 10,
it was like the question I hadfor myself is, what can I do for
my son that gave me the sameopportunities that my parents
buying that computer when I was10 gave me right? Because it's
just it unlocked so manyopportunities. I've been at
great startups in SiliconValley, and just, you know,
(06:09):
through my whole life, it's justgave me nothing but opportunity.
And I of course, want that formy son and but I knew it wasn't
a computer, right? Computers arenow table stakes. Everybody has
them. Everybody knows how to usethem, and the rest. And as you
know, I'm a student of economicslike you are, and, you know,
(06:34):
paid a lot of attention to that,and kind of pay a lot of
attention to what's happening inthe world. And, basically came
to the conclusion that at somepoint, manufacturing is going to
have to come back to the US, andit's going to have to stop
using, you know, child labor inChina, and that there was going
(06:58):
to be a lot of opportunityaround, you know, manufacturing,
and just in time manufacturingand 3d printing and things along
those lines. So I built a shop.
I bought CNC equipment, and wegot 3d printers and electronics
benches and all of that kind ofstuff. And just said, Let's
(07:19):
build stuff. Let's, let's inventstuff. Let's make stuff.
Bruce Norris (07:24):
That was one of the AHA moments in the in the
limo. You had mentioned the 3dprinter. I had no idea what it
was.
Sean O'Toole (07:31):
Yeah.
Bruce Norris (07:32):
And I remember going home and reading about
they had, they had a kid thatwas like, under a year old, that
had a heart defect, they wereable to scan, print his heart
and see what the defect was, sothey could operate directly to
where it was necessary. And thatwas the first time I had ever
heard of that. And so it's justlike, what? So, yeah, it's
(07:55):
always been fun in those limorides with you, because I always
hear something out of thisworld, out of my normal world,
anyway, so that's been prettycool experience. What got you
into real estate in thebeginning of you know, you went
from doing, I think, startupsand all the computer stuff. How
(08:17):
did real estate enter thepicture?
Sean O'Toole (08:19):
It kind of happened twice. I dropped out of
college to start my firstsoftware company. I was 18, it
actually did really well, untilmy partners stole from me, and
but at that point, you know, at18, I bought a house, I drove a
Porsche, I had a boat like,computer really did well for me,
right? Really well. And, youknow? So then I was like, Okay,
(08:44):
what am I going to do next?
After this startup? It reallydidn't fail. It just got broken
by my partners.
Bruce Norris (08:52):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (08:53):
And at the time, my dad wanted to retire, and,
but he was two years away fromearly retirement. He wanted to
go to Hawaii, move to Hawaii,and he found a real estate
magazine for sale there. So Iwent over and ran that for two
years. I'll keep that story realshort, but it is what made me a
suit of economics, because webought it right before the Japan
(09:16):
crisis, debt crisis, and realestate in Hawaii tanked, and it
was a terrible two time,terrible two years, to be trying
to sell ads to realtors, and Iactually vowed I'd never sell
anything to realtors again. Yet,here I am. And then, kind of
similarly, after the tech crash,you know, I'd been doing
(09:39):
startups in Silicon Valley, andI took a year off and made a
friend with a guy who had allthis free time, which I'd never
had in Silicon Valley. And youknow, we were learning to kite
surf and snowboard and, Ialready knew how to snowboard,
(10:00):
but you get the idea we're goingand playing and except he was
making a few million bucks ayear, and I was just burning
through savings. How do you havethis time? And he was in
commercial real estate, and he,long story short, he said,
"Don't go back to SiliconValley", you know, because I
(10:21):
needed to go back to work. Andinstead, he introduced me to a
buddy who was flippingforeclosures. Said I should go
write some software for him. Iwasn't super interested in
writing software for 40, the 40Thieves, but when I looked at
his returns, I said, Okay, this,this is probably something worth
doing with the money I made fromSilicon Valley. If I put that to
(10:44):
work like this, will be a bettera better life, a better outcome
than, than just going back toSilicon Valley, unless you get
that perfect brass ring andyou're a founder, early stage
person at a Google or something.
Bruce Norris (10:57):
Yeah, that's an interesting story, because that
not everybody starts at buying atrustee sales. That's for sure.
Sean O'Toole (11:04):
It is the most complicated, you know, form of
investing, I think there is, andit's the, the highest risk as
well.
Bruce Norris (11:13):
Have you ever seen somebody buy something that was
like, "Oh, that you shouldn'thave done that?"
Sean O'Toole (11:20):
Yeah. My, my, I have seen multiple of those. My
favorite one was a guy bought asecond for $150,000 is the check
he had to hand over. And hedidn't realize it was a second.
He thought it was first. Hethought he was buying a house,
right? He thought the auctionsold houses, not that they sold
(11:41):
loan positions. And the firstmoney, or the first on the
thing, was a hard money loan.
And the hard money lender wasthere at the auction and went up
and explained to the guy that,okay, you now owe me $450,000 on
a $350,000 house.
Bruce Norris (11:56):
Wow.
Sean O'Toole (11:56):
That he just put 150,000 into so 600,000 into a
$350,000 house. The guy ran,grabbed the check out of the
auctioneers hand and took offrunning down the street.
Bruce Norris (12:12):
Really?
Sean O'Toole (12:13):
Yeah, and, you know, I think that's
technically, at that point,felony bank robbery.
Bruce Norris (12:21):
I think so.
Sean O'Toole (12:22):
Yeah, because it's now the bank's money, and it was
a big bank that had the secondso, yeah, so he had just
committed felony bank robbery,and by running off with that
check, never really heard what,what happened? I don't think he
went to jail, but...
Bruce Norris (12:37):
No.
Sean O'Toole (12:38):
But yeah.
Bruce Norris (12:39):
He probably, he probably kept his 150 but never
came back to the auction. That'sfor sure.
Sean O'Toole (12:44):
He definitely, definitely never saw him again.
Bruce Norris (12:46):
No, I had something happen like that. Only
I warned the guy before he didit. I came up to him, yeah. I
said, "You realize that's thesecond?" He said, "No". I said,
that's the second. So afterthat, he became an investor of
money. He says, "I'm gonna splitmy money with you". So anyway,
how did you decide to share theinformation? Because you
(13:10):
certainly would have anadvantage of finding information
on trustee sales. When did youdecide to make that part of what
you did?
Sean O'Toole (13:20):
Yeah, well, you know, at the end of '05, I said,
I don't want any more own, anymore real estate, and I sold
everything, but I was alreadytracking all these foreclosures
and, you know, and I had peoplethat worked for me that were
doing that, and I didn't reallywant to fire them, or, you know,
make them go out and look foranother job. And so I actually
(13:43):
talked to like foreclosure.comand RealtyTrack and others about
potentially selling them thisauction tracking data, because
none of them had it. None ofthem still do. And, you know,
actually got into, almost gotinto contract with one of them,
and they said, "Oh, you're justscraping this data that's easy
(14:05):
to get. We'll get it ourselves".
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, youhave no idea how hard it is to
get to stick. You know, we had adatabase of over 150 trustees
even then and and at about thesame time, a friend of mine from
Silicon Valley, who's famous forstarting a company that's
recognizable as a householdname, kind of kicked me in the
(14:26):
butt. Said, "Hey, you know,you've been helping other people
do startup companies. It's timefor you to do one". And I'd
given him access to the softwareI built for myself for
foreclosures because he had somemoney from his exit on his
company, and he was buying upproperty down in the Marin area,
you know, east of San Francisco.
(14:51):
And he's like, this is reallygood. You ought to make this
available. So that was theturning point for me.
Bruce Norris (14:58):
What year was that?
Sean O'Toole (15:00):
That was, you know, probably May of 2006 that
I made the decision.
Bruce Norris (15:07):
And you were about to count a lot of foreclosures.
Sean O'Toole (15:11):
I didn't quite realize what was I knew I didn't
want to own any more realestate, but I didn't fully
realize how bad it would get.
You know?
Bruce Norris (15:20):
Yeah, a bad three year stretch.
Sean O'Toole (15:24):
Yeah, you know.
And normally, what we see, andkind of being a student of
economics like yourself, right?
Normally, what we see is thegovernment step in pretty
quickly with bailout. So you getthis, this kind of boom, bust
cycle. And I thought that wouldcome faster and harder than it
(15:44):
did. Ultimately, in 2010 I wasone of the first to say this
crisis is over. They've made theregulatory changes that are
necessary. Our foreclosurebusiness, actually, you know,
peaked in 2013 before it startedto dramatically tail off, and
people really realized it wasover, you know, kind of all that
(16:06):
was late entrance, but, yeah,2010 it was pretty clear to me
that it was done.
Bruce Norris (16:13):
When did ForeclosureRadar morph into
PropertyRadar?
Sean O'Toole (16:18):
As quickly as I could after I made that decision
in 2010 but we launched it early2013 so it took about two years.
Bruce Norris (16:26):
Okay? And PropertyRadar, what is, who's
the typical client got? Well,first of all, if I go on
YouTube, I see foreclosures haveexploded, and they're going to
be closing in on 2008 levels.
And I guess I'll ask you, Howridiculous is that statement?
Sean O'Toole (16:43):
I like to remember that going from one foreclosure
to two foreclosures is 100%.
Bruce Norris (16:47):
That's right.
Yeah, they use percentages allthe time.
Sean O'Toole (16:50):
Yeah. So yeah. Are there more foreclosures? Sure.
You know. Are they increasing?
Are they likely to increasemore? Yeah, probably. But we're
still overall, like the equityand the rest, even if we had a
decent correction in prices,it's not going to be anything
like, you know, 2008 and just,yeah, chances of getting back
(17:10):
there are super, are super low.
We just don't have, you know,especially like the qualifying
people on the option payment ofa Pay Option ARM, like the Pay
Option ARM, is a great product.
You just can't qualify peoplebased on the option payment. You
have to qualify them on the 30year payment. And if you do
that, it's a great product. Itgives people, it actually lowers
the chance of distress. But theway they used it, it allowed
(17:33):
people to pay way more forproperties than they should
have. And you know, I thinkproperty right now in the US is
significantly overvalued and soit's just, how does that unwind?
Does that unwind just, with timeand, you know, income?
Bruce Norris (17:53):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (17:53):
Inflation?
Bruce Norris (17:54):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (17:54):
Inflation, basically over time, or does it
bust somehow? Right now, I stillfeel like it's more likely just
unwind over a long period oftime.
Bruce Norris (18:04):
Yeah, I would agree with that. I had to kind
of do the math on that one threeyears ago in a report. That was
the idea, you know, it's either1% mortgage rates or we lost a
decade.
Sean O'Toole (18:14):
Yeah.
Bruce Norris (18:15):
You know.
Sean O'Toole (18:16):
I think we lost a decade.
Bruce Norris (18:17):
Yeah, we're going to lose a decade because you
have so many people with greatmortgages in place. So first of
all, that stuff's not for sale.
Where the dilemma is is that youhave Realtors making 45% less
commissions because that groupof properties isn't coming for
sale. And so you have a smallergroup of properties for sale,
and a smaller group of peoplethat didn't get in, that want
(18:39):
in, and that can afford it. Sothat's the..
Sean O'Toole (18:44):
And that has economic impacts too, right?
Less commission for realtors,less work for title companies,
less work for lenders like allof that is...
Bruce Norris (18:53):
Yeah, 45%...
Sean O'Toole (18:55):
...economic.
Bruce Norris (18:55):
45% is great depression level stuff for that
part of the industry. So we wereinvited to an hour and a half
lunch at Fannie Mae with thepresident. That was the
discussion, that's if you wantto, if you want to solve that
move, let these loans that arein place move forward to a new
buyer find out, to get that tobe a transaction, you know.
Sean O'Toole (19:17):
Yeah, you and I've been talking about that for
years, and I the assumablemortgage, like it's a big reason
why the 1970s into the 1980s wasa very different outcome than
2008. You'd pay more for aproperty that where you could
keep the mortgage at 7% ratherthan having to get a new
mortgage at 15...
Bruce Norris (19:37):
Absolutely.
Sean O'Toole (19:39):
...that actually push prices up.
Bruce Norris (19:43):
For probably over 10 years. You and I drove in a
limo. We were in the back, andwe'd have discussions, and
there's always some interestingconversations. And one such
trip, you said the biggestproblem our country will have in
the future is how to have apeaceful society. When 50% of
the people don't have jobs, andthat was like, what? And in
(20:08):
trying to get my arms wrappedaround Artificial Intelligence
and the progression that it canmake, all of a sudden I start
thinking, Wow, is that a remotepossibility, somewhere in the
next five years. What do youthink of that?
Sean O'Toole (20:30):
Yeah, so, you know, right now, I think we're
still in the phase, for the mostpart, where AI is creating more
opportunities than it'seliminating but, but ultimately,
I think people look at this thewrong way.
Bruce Norris (20:43):
Okay.
Sean O'Toole (20:44):
Our goal as a society should be to have
greater productivity with lesswork, right? So that been
thinking a lot. We use a lotright now, we talk about how we
need to beat this country or winor whatever, and, you know, and
(21:09):
the same thing with AI, there'sa lot of people like, "oh, we
can't let AI happen". You know,"We can't let it take our jobs.
We can't it's like this ughh",it's this confrontational kind
of mindset, right? There is apotential future where we
leverage AI and robotics toupgrade all of humanity to where
(21:33):
we as people don't have to dothose terrible jobs that slave
labor, that whatever right. Andthe better at that we get, the
fewer people will need to work,because more that work will be
done by AI and robots. Andthat's a great, that's a great,
(21:55):
utopian vision of the future, ifyou have it. You know, Musk is
pitching that now, you know,I've been, and I think most of
us in Tech have been, have kindof had that in our head, you
know, for some time, is that'swhere we're headed. I mean, I
think those of us that arehonest in tech also have no
illusions that the software wecreate takes away jobs. When I
(22:20):
launched ForeclosureRadar . Oneof the first calls I got was
from a gentleman in Concord,California, and he said, Sean,
he's like, he's like, this isjust unbelievable. He's like, I
used to have three full timepeople that I no longer need to
have. I can just use yoursoftware. Because he was
(22:40):
tracking the sales in a fewcounties himself, and he had to
have all these people callingall these trustees and doing it,
and then for 49 bucks a month, Ireplaced three people.
Bruce Norris (22:50):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (22:51):
You know? And that's, that's awesome story for
him, but it's kind of a terriblestory for those three people,
right? And, and that's reallyand the downside of that, what
that does is that concentrateswealth in the technology. Soon
as we have all thesebillionaires right, that run
these tech companies, and at theend of the day, these tech
(23:11):
companies, what they're doing isthey're destroying jobs, but
they're creating tremendouswealth because they're doing
that same job for a lot lessmoney.
Bruce Norris (23:19):
Correct.
Sean O'Toole (23:20):
That's the bad side of it, right? The good side
of it is, is we do this right,right? We don't need to spend as
much time working and the rest,and we can bring up everybody's
quality of life. And we need tostart thinking about it that way
and looking at it that way. Andhow do we transition to that?
And that was the conversation wehad in the car. Like, how do we
(23:44):
think about a future where wedon't need everybody to work,
but we don't just go totallywealth gap haves and have nots.
Bruce Norris (23:52):
Right. Because that's not a peaceful society,
generally.
Sean O'Toole (23:56):
No, it won't end well for the haves, you know,
because, you know, you get Cuba,you get, you know, we see this
throughout history, where youget too big of a disparity, and
folks rise up.
Bruce Norris (24:11):
So I'm, I really haven't paid attention to this
topic until the last three days,and so I'm an amateur asking
questions to a pro so, but onething it it did scare me, you
know, when I started watchingthe interviews, because it seems
like there's a lot at stake,whether you're a company or a
(24:34):
country, you wouldn't mindwinning this and being the
decider of how the outcome playsout.
Sean O'Toole (24:42):
Is that the problem with winning is that it
I kind of hate that. I likewinning, but I like winning in
games where there isn't a loser,and you think about it a
geopolitical level, like we needto be China, like we need to
win, they need to lose. Allyou're doing there is saying
(25:05):
we're going to have conflict.
Bruce Norris (25:07):
We're going to have conflict? Yes.
Sean O'Toole (25:08):
we're going to have conflict. Because they
won't just lose, right? They'llkill all billion people before
they lose, right? Trying to killus.
Bruce Norris (25:16):
Okay. So I you know, so I think what you're
that's the path I see. I seethese interviews where you do
have people that have adifferent opinion of, like, I
want to be first, and then youhave a group of these people
that are collectively in thebusiness, and they're all
geniuses, going, how do we makethis the best outcome possible?
Sean O'Toole (25:36):
And that's, that's where, that's where I like lead
a lot better than when.
Bruce Norris (25:42):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (25:42):
Right. So it's important to lead, and I think
that on that front right, weneed to think about, especially
as a country, how do we lead?
Help those other companies comeup too, because if they don't,
they're going to be in conflictwith us and but how do we stay
the leader? And I think that'sthe right conversation. So
(26:05):
didn't mean to go on a littletangent on the word win, but...
Bruce Norris (26:09):
No.
Sean O'Toole (26:10):
That's something I'm thinking about a lot right
now.
Bruce Norris (26:12):
No, I think that has to be part of the part of
the discussion. You know, when Iwas when I was looking at all
this information, and I waslistening to all these
interviews, I found itinteresting, because there was
definitely some unease about theoutcome going in a direction
that no one wanted, but not surethat if you were like an
(26:36):
egomaniac and you got therefirst, that you wouldn't be
happy to be able to call theshots and like, that's the scary
part, because there is a pointand then, see, I'm talking
beyond. I'll ask you, how closeare we to a point where somebody
gets the ultimate power,whatever that is, and they get
(26:58):
there first, is that dangerousfor the person or the company
that was in second that type ofthing?
Sean O'Toole (27:06):
Yeah, so I think so if we come back to the
internet really quickly, right?
And the world wide web and the1990s right, there were winners
and there were losers, Netflixwon, right? Blockbuster lost.
Bruce Norris (27:25):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (27:27):
You know. But I think Netflix won by leading and
blockbuster lost by not, youknow, not keeping up with the
times,
Bruce Norris (27:37):
Right, not seeing what was next. That's right.
Sean O'Toole (27:40):
Blockbuster didn't lose because, you know, Netflix
was out to kill them.
Bruce Norris (27:46):
Right. Right.
Sean O'Toole (27:47):
So there's some intent there that I think is is
important, but there willdefinitely be winners and
losers. Um, I think if you'renot really focused on how this
changes your company, and youknow what you can create using
(28:08):
these new tools that areavailable to us, like you
probably deserve to have yourcompany, you know, slowly fade
away, right? And just likeBlockbuster, did it happen
overnight? It took a littlewhile. There's going to be
people who still like going tothe store and grabbing the tape,
but over time, right? I thinkthose things will fade away. And
(28:28):
I think that's just a choice forthe people who run those
companies where they want to be.
And there's no question, it's aserious time of change, and
that's going to create a lot ofopportunities. There will be
Netflix's that replaceblockbusters 100% there will be
companies that are we haven'theard of yet, that will be super
important tomorrow, and therewill be companies we think
(28:50):
couldn't possibly go anywhere,that won't continue to exist
over the next 10 years. Thenthere's kind of, there's,
there's that piece, right? Thenthere's this bigger piece where
you got people saying, Okay,we're going to get to general
intelligence, and the generalintelligences are going to want
(29:11):
to wipe out humans on Earth,right? Like that kind of,
there's that whole narrativegoing around, and that what
we're creating is superdangerous pn that side, I'm
skeptical there. I think we're along way away from that. So, you
know, the head, I'm going toforget his name right now, of
(29:32):
metas, Chief Scientist, justleft because he doesn't think
LLMs will ever get there. Hewants to work on world models.
That's a whole otherconversation. You know, I think
he's probably right that LLMswon't get their large language
models. So that's not somethingI'm particularly worried about
at this point. Then there's athird issue, which is, uh, you
(29:56):
know, kind of the bad actorscenario. So does it become
easier with large languagemodels and this amount of
compute, regardless whether it'sfor a large language model or
whatever, but just the power ofthe chips and how they continue
(30:18):
to grow, it's going to makethings that weren't previously
possible, not only possible, orthings that were previously
possible, but too hard, butanybody, but, you know, really
large governments to do. It'sgoing to make those easier for
bad actors to do. And I don'tthink there's any question about
(30:39):
that, right? Like, it's going toget easier to develop, you know,
a Covid19 that's more lethal andrelease it. You know, those
kinds of things I do think geteasier. And this comes back to
the lead side of things, right?
Like, but we need a governmentthat understands these threats,
(31:01):
is actively out looking,understands that these can
happen, and is working to makesure we have great responses in
place, great detection in place,you know, all that kind of
thing. I think we're woefullybehind on that, you know, as
humanity, not just as the US,like.
Bruce Norris (31:24):
Okay.
Sean O'Toole (31:24):
Like we need to make sure, on the lead side,
right, we need to be investingbillions, maybe a trillion
dollars, as a country, intomaking sure we're at the
forefront of all this, so thatwhatever anybody else does down
here, we've got Something tocounter, counter with. And I
don't mean beat them. I don'tmean making, well, beating a bad
(31:45):
actor for sure, but not beating,like other countries, but like,
just making sure that, you know,hey, we're going to show the
world how we can do this, how wecan get to a point where people
don't need to work as much, theycan have a higher quality of
life, and they don't have toworry about bad actors, and I
think all those things arepossible with the right
leadership.
Joey Romero (32:05):
Well, that's going to do it for part one of our
interview with Sean O'Toole, CEOand Founder of PropertyRadar. Be
sure to tune in next week forpart two.
Narrator (32:13):
For more information on hard money loans, trust deed
investing, and upcoming eventswith The Norris group. Check out
thenorrisgroup.com. For moreinformation on passive investing
through the DBL Capital RealEstate Investment Fund, please
visit dblapital.com.
Joey Romero (32:33):
The Norris Group originates and services loans in
California and Florida underCalifornia DRE license 01219911.
Florida mortgage lender license1577 and NMLS license 1623669.
For more information on hardmoney lending go to
thenorrisgroup.com and click thehard money tab.
Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a
show committed to bringing youinsights from thought leaders
shaping the real estateindustry. In each episode, we'll
dive into conversations withindustry experts and local
insiders, all aimed at helpingyou thrive in an ever-changing
real estate market. continuingthe legacy that Bruce Norris
(00:24):
created, sharing valuableknowledge, and empowering you on
your real estate journey.
Whether you're a seasoned pro ora newcomer, this is your go-to
source for insider tips, markettrends and success strategies.
Here's your host, Craig Evans.
Joey Romero (00:43):
Welcome everybody to The Norris Group Real Estate
Podcast. Today, we have a coupleof special guest week. First of
all, we have a special guesthost, Bruce Norris, you guys
might have heard of that guy andSean O'Toole. Sean O'Toole is
CEO and Founder ofPropertyRadar, the property data
and owner information platformreal estate pros have trusted
(01:05):
since 2007 to do billions ofdollars in deals. Sean got a
start with data in SiliconValley during dot-com boom.
After dot-com bubble, Seanflipped properties for five
years and with data, informedinsights got out right before
the housing bubble burst. Seanlaunched ForeclosureRadar in
early 2007 before anyone hadheard of the foreclosure crisis,
(01:26):
in 2013 he relaunchedForeclosureRadar as
PropertyRadar, a greatlyexpanded property data and owner
information platform serving abroad audience of real estate
professionals and propertycentric businesses today,
PropertyRadar remains the go toplatform for Data Driven Real
Estate Professionals intent onleveraging comprehensive
(01:47):
property data and ownerinformation to grow their
businesses directly. Let'swelcome Sean O'Toole and that
other guy, Bruce Norris.
Bruce Norris (01:54):
Hi, thank you for joining us today. We have a very
special guest. Sean O'Toole.
Sean, how are you?
Sean O'Toole (02:00):
I'm doing awesome.
Bruce Norris (02:01):
We go way back.
Just a very brief introduction.
You started ForeclosureRadar ,which morphed into PropertyRadar
You and I had the the idea go tothe Library of Congress and look
at data for two or three days,and that was just a lot of fun.
(02:24):
We got to know each other prettywell and always respected. You,
My son, Aaron, got to work foryour company at the end of his
life. So that was pretty cool.
Sean O'Toole (02:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely loved it having Aaronhere for sure.
Bruce Norris (02:39):
You and I spent some time every year when we
went to the library of not theLibrary of Congress, but Nixon
library, and we had someinteresting conversations. And
one of the things you mentioned,and I'm going to kind of go down
that rabbit hole for a second,something important happened on
your 10th birthday, your dad hadspecifically said there was
(03:00):
something special about what hewanted to get you for that 10th
birthday. What was the birthdaygift and how did that impact
your life?
Sean O'Toole (03:08):
Yeah, it was, I was 10 years old as an Apple II
computer actually didn't get itfor my birthday. But, you know,
it was my 10th, 10th year. Sofrom I was 10 years old, and
they bought it, ostensibly fortheir business, my parents
business, but my mom's officewas in my bedroom. I had kind of
a big, big bedroom. So when Iwas at school, she would go in
(03:30):
there and do the books andstuff. And that was a mistake.
Putting that computer in a 10year bedroom started my history
of late nights and staying uptill two, 3am and impacted my
school a little, but I still didokay.
Bruce Norris (03:46):
How did, how did that impact your life? That
computer?
Sean O'Toole (03:50):
Oh, that, that computer, just, you know,
changed everything for me. Ilearned to program. You know,
when I stand there wasn't muchto do on a computer, yeah, like
people, younger people probablywon't understand that today, but
you know that early Apple IIcomputer, there was, you know,
very little to do on it, right?
There's only a couple ofprograms. There was a couple of
really terrible games, and, youknow, so there just wasn't much
(04:15):
to do. And so you took upprogramming. And I remember, I
was probably 12, my dad camehome and I had the lid off, and
I was soldering inside this, youknow, I think it was even back
then, it was probably $4,000 soyou think about that in 1978.
Bruce Norris (04:35):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (04:36):
Was a lot of money. My dad freaked out, but,
but it made the computer a lotbetter and faster, and then he
kind of let me do whatever Iwant after that.
Bruce Norris (04:44):
How did you figure that out?
Sean O'Toole (04:48):
Bite Magazine was kind of my Bible as a kid, and I
remember the first time I readbite magazine, I understood
maybe five words and but I readthat magazine. Ann, it was
thick. It was like this thick,you know, like three quarter
inch thick magazine. It's justhuge back in the day, and I
would read it cover to cover,even though I didn't understand
(05:10):
anything. And over time, Iunderstood more and more. And,
you know, by 12 I had the thingapart. Was soldering. It was a
speed upgrade.
Bruce Norris (05:21):
And I was thinking about what $4,000 meant back
then, because I think a house inCalifornia cost about 40 grand,
like $10,000 No wonder your dadwas going, what the heck?
Sean O'Toole (05:34):
Yeah, he wasn't a happy.
Bruce Norris (05:37):
when your son turned 10. Did you go through
that same process and say, Ithink I'm going to get him
something that might bemeaningful?
Sean O'Toole (05:46):
Yeah. So that was a big as he was approaching 10,
it was like the question I hadfor myself is, what can I do for
my son that gave me the sameopportunities that my parents
buying that computer when I was10 gave me right? Because it's
just it unlocked so manyopportunities. I've been at
great startups in SiliconValley, and just, you know,
(06:09):
through my whole life, it's justgave me nothing but opportunity.
And I of course, want that formy son and but I knew it wasn't
a computer, right? Computers arenow table stakes. Everybody has
them. Everybody knows how to usethem, and the rest. And as you
know, I'm a student of economicslike you are, and, you know,
(06:34):
paid a lot of attention to that,and kind of pay a lot of
attention to what's happening inthe world. And, basically came
to the conclusion that at somepoint, manufacturing is going to
have to come back to the US, andit's going to have to stop
using, you know, child labor inChina, and that there was going
(06:58):
to be a lot of opportunityaround, you know, manufacturing,
and just in time manufacturingand 3d printing and things along
those lines. So I built a shop.
I bought CNC equipment, and wegot 3d printers and electronics
benches and all of that kind ofstuff. And just said, Let's
(07:19):
build stuff. Let's, let's inventstuff. Let's make stuff.
Bruce Norris (07:24):
That was one of the AHA moments in the in the
limo. You had mentioned the 3dprinter. I had no idea what it
was.
Sean O'Toole (07:31):
Yeah.
Bruce Norris (07:32):
And I remember going home and reading about
they had, they had a kid thatwas like, under a year old, that
had a heart defect, they wereable to scan, print his heart
and see what the defect was, sothey could operate directly to
where it was necessary. And thatwas the first time I had ever
heard of that. And so it's justlike, what? So, yeah, it's
(07:55):
always been fun in those limorides with you, because I always
hear something out of thisworld, out of my normal world,
anyway, so that's been prettycool experience. What got you
into real estate in thebeginning of you know, you went
from doing, I think, startupsand all the computer stuff. How
(08:17):
did real estate enter thepicture?
Sean O'Toole (08:19):
It kind of happened twice. I dropped out of
college to start my firstsoftware company. I was 18, it
actually did really well, untilmy partners stole from me, and
but at that point, you know, at18, I bought a house, I drove a
Porsche, I had a boat like,computer really did well for me,
right? Really well. And, youknow? So then I was like, Okay,
(08:44):
what am I going to do next?
After this startup? It reallydidn't fail. It just got broken
by my partners.
Bruce Norris (08:52):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (08:53):
And at the time, my dad wanted to retire, and,
but he was two years away fromearly retirement. He wanted to
go to Hawaii, move to Hawaii,and he found a real estate
magazine for sale there. So Iwent over and ran that for two
years. I'll keep that story realshort, but it is what made me a
suit of economics, because webought it right before the Japan
(09:16):
crisis, debt crisis, and realestate in Hawaii tanked, and it
was a terrible two time,terrible two years, to be trying
to sell ads to realtors, and Iactually vowed I'd never sell
anything to realtors again. Yet,here I am. And then, kind of
similarly, after the tech crash,you know, I'd been doing
(09:39):
startups in Silicon Valley, andI took a year off and made a
friend with a guy who had allthis free time, which I'd never
had in Silicon Valley. And youknow, we were learning to kite
surf and snowboard and, Ialready knew how to snowboard,
(10:00):
but you get the idea we're goingand playing and except he was
making a few million bucks ayear, and I was just burning
through savings. How do you havethis time? And he was in
commercial real estate, and he,long story short, he said,
"Don't go back to SiliconValley", you know, because I
(10:21):
needed to go back to work. Andinstead, he introduced me to a
buddy who was flippingforeclosures. Said I should go
write some software for him. Iwasn't super interested in
writing software for 40, the 40Thieves, but when I looked at
his returns, I said, Okay, this,this is probably something worth
doing with the money I made fromSilicon Valley. If I put that to
(10:44):
work like this, will be a bettera better life, a better outcome
than, than just going back toSilicon Valley, unless you get
that perfect brass ring andyou're a founder, early stage
person at a Google or something.
Bruce Norris (10:57):
Yeah, that's an interesting story, because that
not everybody starts at buying atrustee sales. That's for sure.
Sean O'Toole (11:04):
It is the most complicated, you know, form of
investing, I think there is, andit's the, the highest risk as
well.
Bruce Norris (11:13):
Have you ever seen somebody buy something that was
like, "Oh, that you shouldn'thave done that?"
Sean O'Toole (11:20):
Yeah. My, my, I have seen multiple of those. My
favorite one was a guy bought asecond for $150,000 is the check
he had to hand over. And hedidn't realize it was a second.
He thought it was first. Hethought he was buying a house,
right? He thought the auctionsold houses, not that they sold
(11:41):
loan positions. And the firstmoney, or the first on the
thing, was a hard money loan.
And the hard money lender wasthere at the auction and went up
and explained to the guy that,okay, you now owe me $450,000 on
a $350,000 house.
Bruce Norris (11:56):
Wow.
Sean O'Toole (11:56):
That he just put 150,000 into so 600,000 into a
$350,000 house. The guy ran,grabbed the check out of the
auctioneers hand and took offrunning down the street.
Bruce Norris (12:12):
Really?
Sean O'Toole (12:13):
Yeah, and, you know, I think that's
technically, at that point,felony bank robbery.
Bruce Norris (12:21):
I think so.
Sean O'Toole (12:22):
Yeah, because it's now the bank's money, and it was
a big bank that had the secondso, yeah, so he had just
committed felony bank robbery,and by running off with that
check, never really heard what,what happened? I don't think he
went to jail, but...
Bruce Norris (12:37):
No.
Sean O'Toole (12:38):
But yeah.
Bruce Norris (12:39):
He probably, he probably kept his 150 but never
came back to the auction. That'sfor sure.
Sean O'Toole (12:44):
He definitely, definitely never saw him again.
Bruce Norris (12:46):
No, I had something happen like that. Only
I warned the guy before he didit. I came up to him, yeah. I
said, "You realize that's thesecond?" He said, "No". I said,
that's the second. So afterthat, he became an investor of
money. He says, "I'm gonna splitmy money with you". So anyway,
how did you decide to share theinformation? Because you
(13:10):
certainly would have anadvantage of finding information
on trustee sales. When did youdecide to make that part of what
you did?
Sean O'Toole (13:20):
Yeah, well, you know, at the end of '05, I said,
I don't want any more own, anymore real estate, and I sold
everything, but I was alreadytracking all these foreclosures
and, you know, and I had peoplethat worked for me that were
doing that, and I didn't reallywant to fire them, or, you know,
make them go out and look foranother job. And so I actually
(13:43):
talked to like foreclosure.comand RealtyTrack and others about
potentially selling them thisauction tracking data, because
none of them had it. None ofthem still do. And, you know,
actually got into, almost gotinto contract with one of them,
and they said, "Oh, you're justscraping this data that's easy
(14:05):
to get. We'll get it ourselves".
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, youhave no idea how hard it is to
get to stick. You know, we had adatabase of over 150 trustees
even then and and at about thesame time, a friend of mine from
Silicon Valley, who's famous forstarting a company that's
recognizable as a householdname, kind of kicked me in the
(14:26):
butt. Said, "Hey, you know,you've been helping other people
do startup companies. It's timefor you to do one". And I'd
given him access to the softwareI built for myself for
foreclosures because he had somemoney from his exit on his
company, and he was buying upproperty down in the Marin area,
you know, east of San Francisco.
(14:51):
And he's like, this is reallygood. You ought to make this
available. So that was theturning point for me.
Bruce Norris (14:58):
What year was that?
Sean O'Toole (15:00):
That was, you know, probably May of 2006 that
I made the decision.
Bruce Norris (15:07):
And you were about to count a lot of foreclosures.
Sean O'Toole (15:11):
I didn't quite realize what was I knew I didn't
want to own any more realestate, but I didn't fully
realize how bad it would get.
You know?
Bruce Norris (15:20):
Yeah, a bad three year stretch.
Sean O'Toole (15:24):
Yeah, you know.
And normally, what we see, andkind of being a student of
economics like yourself, right?
Normally, what we see is thegovernment step in pretty
quickly with bailout. So you getthis, this kind of boom, bust
cycle. And I thought that wouldcome faster and harder than it
(15:44):
did. Ultimately, in 2010 I wasone of the first to say this
crisis is over. They've made theregulatory changes that are
necessary. Our foreclosurebusiness, actually, you know,
peaked in 2013 before it startedto dramatically tail off, and
people really realized it wasover, you know, kind of all that
(16:06):
was late entrance, but, yeah,2010 it was pretty clear to me
that it was done.
Bruce Norris (16:13):
When did ForeclosureRadar morph into
PropertyRadar?
Sean O'Toole (16:18):
As quickly as I could after I made that decision
in 2010 but we launched it early2013 so it took about two years.
Bruce Norris (16:26):
Okay? And PropertyRadar, what is, who's
the typical client got? Well,first of all, if I go on
YouTube, I see foreclosures haveexploded, and they're going to
be closing in on 2008 levels.
And I guess I'll ask you, Howridiculous is that statement?
Sean O'Toole (16:43):
I like to remember that going from one foreclosure
to two foreclosures is 100%.
Bruce Norris (16:47):
That's right.
Yeah, they use percentages allthe time.
Sean O'Toole (16:50):
Yeah. So yeah. Are there more foreclosures? Sure.
You know. Are they increasing?
Are they likely to increasemore? Yeah, probably. But we're
still overall, like the equityand the rest, even if we had a
decent correction in prices,it's not going to be anything
like, you know, 2008 and just,yeah, chances of getting back
(17:10):
there are super, are super low.
We just don't have, you know,especially like the qualifying
people on the option payment ofa Pay Option ARM, like the Pay
Option ARM, is a great product.
You just can't qualify peoplebased on the option payment. You
have to qualify them on the 30year payment. And if you do
that, it's a great product. Itgives people, it actually lowers
the chance of distress. But theway they used it, it allowed
(17:33):
people to pay way more forproperties than they should
have. And you know, I thinkproperty right now in the US is
significantly overvalued and soit's just, how does that unwind?
Does that unwind just, with timeand, you know, income?
Bruce Norris (17:53):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (17:53):
Inflation?
Bruce Norris (17:54):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (17:54):
Inflation, basically over time, or does it
bust somehow? Right now, I stillfeel like it's more likely just
unwind over a long period oftime.
Bruce Norris (18:04):
Yeah, I would agree with that. I had to kind
of do the math on that one threeyears ago in a report. That was
the idea, you know, it's either1% mortgage rates or we lost a
decade.
Sean O'Toole (18:14):
Yeah.
Bruce Norris (18:15):
You know.
Sean O'Toole (18:16):
I think we lost a decade.
Bruce Norris (18:17):
Yeah, we're going to lose a decade because you
have so many people with greatmortgages in place. So first of
all, that stuff's not for sale.
Where the dilemma is is that youhave Realtors making 45% less
commissions because that groupof properties isn't coming for
sale. And so you have a smallergroup of properties for sale,
and a smaller group of peoplethat didn't get in, that want
(18:39):
in, and that can afford it. Sothat's the..
Sean O'Toole (18:44):
And that has economic impacts too, right?
Less commission for realtors,less work for title companies,
less work for lenders like allof that is...
Bruce Norris (18:53):
Yeah, 45%...
Sean O'Toole (18:55):
...economic.
Bruce Norris (18:55):
45% is great depression level stuff for that
part of the industry. So we wereinvited to an hour and a half
lunch at Fannie Mae with thepresident. That was the
discussion, that's if you wantto, if you want to solve that
move, let these loans that arein place move forward to a new
buyer find out, to get that tobe a transaction, you know.
Sean O'Toole (19:17):
Yeah, you and I've been talking about that for
years, and I the assumablemortgage, like it's a big reason
why the 1970s into the 1980s wasa very different outcome than
2008. You'd pay more for aproperty that where you could
keep the mortgage at 7% ratherthan having to get a new
mortgage at 15...
Bruce Norris (19:37):
Absolutely.
Sean O'Toole (19:39):
...that actually push prices up.
Bruce Norris (19:43):
For probably over 10 years. You and I drove in a
limo. We were in the back, andwe'd have discussions, and
there's always some interestingconversations. And one such
trip, you said the biggestproblem our country will have in
the future is how to have apeaceful society. When 50% of
the people don't have jobs, andthat was like, what? And in
(20:08):
trying to get my arms wrappedaround Artificial Intelligence
and the progression that it canmake, all of a sudden I start
thinking, Wow, is that a remotepossibility, somewhere in the
next five years. What do youthink of that?
Sean O'Toole (20:30):
Yeah, so, you know, right now, I think we're
still in the phase, for the mostpart, where AI is creating more
opportunities than it'seliminating but, but ultimately,
I think people look at this thewrong way.
Bruce Norris (20:43):
Okay.
Sean O'Toole (20:44):
Our goal as a society should be to have
greater productivity with lesswork, right? So that been
thinking a lot. We use a lotright now, we talk about how we
need to beat this country or winor whatever, and, you know, and
(21:09):
the same thing with AI, there'sa lot of people like, "oh, we
can't let AI happen". You know,"We can't let it take our jobs.
We can't it's like this ughh",it's this confrontational kind
of mindset, right? There is apotential future where we
leverage AI and robotics toupgrade all of humanity to where
(21:33):
we as people don't have to dothose terrible jobs that slave
labor, that whatever right. Andthe better at that we get, the
fewer people will need to work,because more that work will be
done by AI and robots. Andthat's a great, that's a great,
(21:55):
utopian vision of the future, ifyou have it. You know, Musk is
pitching that now, you know,I've been, and I think most of
us in Tech have been, have kindof had that in our head, you
know, for some time, is that'swhere we're headed. I mean, I
think those of us that arehonest in tech also have no
illusions that the software wecreate takes away jobs. When I
(22:20):
launched ForeclosureRadar . Oneof the first calls I got was
from a gentleman in Concord,California, and he said, Sean,
he's like, he's like, this isjust unbelievable. He's like, I
used to have three full timepeople that I no longer need to
have. I can just use yoursoftware. Because he was
(22:40):
tracking the sales in a fewcounties himself, and he had to
have all these people callingall these trustees and doing it,
and then for 49 bucks a month, Ireplaced three people.
Bruce Norris (22:50):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (22:51):
You know? And that's, that's awesome story for
him, but it's kind of a terriblestory for those three people,
right? And, and that's reallyand the downside of that, what
that does is that concentrateswealth in the technology. Soon
as we have all thesebillionaires right, that run
these tech companies, and at theend of the day, these tech
(23:11):
companies, what they're doing isthey're destroying jobs, but
they're creating tremendouswealth because they're doing
that same job for a lot lessmoney.
Bruce Norris (23:19):
Correct.
Sean O'Toole (23:20):
That's the bad side of it, right? The good side
of it is, is we do this right,right? We don't need to spend as
much time working and the rest,and we can bring up everybody's
quality of life. And we need tostart thinking about it that way
and looking at it that way. Andhow do we transition to that?
And that was the conversation wehad in the car. Like, how do we
(23:44):
think about a future where wedon't need everybody to work,
but we don't just go totallywealth gap haves and have nots.
Bruce Norris (23:52):
Right. Because that's not a peaceful society,
generally.
Sean O'Toole (23:56):
No, it won't end well for the haves, you know,
because, you know, you get Cuba,you get, you know, we see this
throughout history, where youget too big of a disparity, and
folks rise up.
Bruce Norris (24:11):
So I'm, I really haven't paid attention to this
topic until the last three days,and so I'm an amateur asking
questions to a pro so, but onething it it did scare me, you
know, when I started watchingthe interviews, because it seems
like there's a lot at stake,whether you're a company or a
(24:34):
country, you wouldn't mindwinning this and being the
decider of how the outcome playsout.
Sean O'Toole (24:42):
Is that the problem with winning is that it
I kind of hate that. I likewinning, but I like winning in
games where there isn't a loser,and you think about it a
geopolitical level, like we needto be China, like we need to
win, they need to lose. Allyou're doing there is saying
(25:05):
we're going to have conflict.
Bruce Norris (25:07):
We're going to have conflict? Yes.
Sean O'Toole (25:08):
we're going to have conflict. Because they
won't just lose, right? They'llkill all billion people before
they lose, right? Trying to killus.
Bruce Norris (25:16):
Okay. So I you know, so I think what you're
that's the path I see. I seethese interviews where you do
have people that have adifferent opinion of, like, I
want to be first, and then youhave a group of these people
that are collectively in thebusiness, and they're all
geniuses, going, how do we makethis the best outcome possible?
Sean O'Toole (25:36):
And that's, that's where, that's where I like lead
a lot better than when.
Bruce Norris (25:42):
Yeah.
Sean O'Toole (25:42):
Right. So it's important to lead, and I think
that on that front right, weneed to think about, especially
as a country, how do we lead?
Help those other companies comeup too, because if they don't,
they're going to be in conflictwith us and but how do we stay
the leader? And I think that'sthe right conversation. So
(26:05):
didn't mean to go on a littletangent on the word win, but...
Bruce Norris (26:09):
No.
Sean O'Toole (26:10):
That's something I'm thinking about a lot right
now.
Bruce Norris (26:12):
No, I think that has to be part of the part of
the discussion. You know, when Iwas when I was looking at all
this information, and I waslistening to all these
interviews, I found itinteresting, because there was
definitely some unease about theoutcome going in a direction
that no one wanted, but not surethat if you were like an
(26:36):
egomaniac and you got therefirst, that you wouldn't be
happy to be able to call theshots and like, that's the scary
part, because there is a pointand then, see, I'm talking
beyond. I'll ask you, how closeare we to a point where somebody
gets the ultimate power,whatever that is, and they get
(26:58):
there first, is that dangerousfor the person or the company
that was in second that type ofthing?
Sean O'Toole (27:06):
Yeah, so I think so if we come back to the
internet really quickly, right?
And the world wide web and the1990s right, there were winners
and there were losers, Netflixwon, right? Blockbuster lost.
Bruce Norris (27:25):
Right.
Sean O'Toole (27:27):
You know. But I think Netflix won by leading and
blockbuster lost by not, youknow, not keeping up with the
times,
Bruce Norris (27:37):
Right, not seeing what was next. That's right.
Sean O'Toole (27:40):
Blockbuster didn't lose because, you know, Netflix
was out to kill them.
Bruce Norris (27:46):
Right. Right.
Sean O'Toole (27:47):
So there's some intent there that I think is is
important, but there willdefinitely be winners and
losers. Um, I think if you'renot really focused on how this
changes your company, and youknow what you can create using
(28:08):
these new tools that areavailable to us, like you
probably deserve to have yourcompany, you know, slowly fade
away, right? And just likeBlockbuster, did it happen
overnight? It took a littlewhile. There's going to be
people who still like going tothe store and grabbing the tape,
but over time, right? I thinkthose things will fade away. And
(28:28):
I think that's just a choice forthe people who run those
companies where they want to be.
And there's no question, it's aserious time of change, and
that's going to create a lot ofopportunities. There will be
Netflix's that replaceblockbusters 100% there will be
companies that are we haven'theard of yet, that will be super
important tomorrow, and therewill be companies we think
(28:50):
couldn't possibly go anywhere,that won't continue to exist
over the next 10 years. Thenthere's kind of, there's,
there's that piece, right? Thenthere's this bigger piece where
you got people saying, Okay,we're going to get to general
intelligence, and the generalintelligences are going to want
(29:11):
to wipe out humans on Earth,right? Like that kind of,
there's that whole narrativegoing around, and that what
we're creating is superdangerous pn that side, I'm
skeptical there. I think we're along way away from that. So, you
know, the head, I'm going toforget his name right now, of
(29:32):
metas, Chief Scientist, justleft because he doesn't think
LLMs will ever get there. Hewants to work on world models.
That's a whole otherconversation. You know, I think
he's probably right that LLMswon't get their large language
models. So that's not somethingI'm particularly worried about
at this point. Then there's athird issue, which is, uh, you
(29:56):
know, kind of the bad actorscenario. So does it become
easier with large languagemodels and this amount of
compute, regardless whether it'sfor a large language model or
whatever, but just the power ofthe chips and how they continue
(30:18):
to grow, it's going to makethings that weren't previously
possible, not only possible, orthings that were previously
possible, but too hard, butanybody, but, you know, really
large governments to do. It'sgoing to make those easier for
bad actors to do. And I don'tthink there's any question about
(30:39):
that, right? Like, it's going toget easier to develop, you know,
a Covid19 that's more lethal andrelease it. You know, those
kinds of things I do think geteasier. And this comes back to
the lead side of things, right?
Like, but we need a governmentthat understands these threats,
(31:01):
is actively out looking,understands that these can
happen, and is working to makesure we have great responses in
place, great detection in place,you know, all that kind of
thing. I think we're woefullybehind on that, you know, as
humanity, not just as the US,like.
Bruce Norris (31:24):
Okay.
Sean O'Toole (31:24):
Like we need to make sure, on the lead side,
right, we need to be investingbillions, maybe a trillion
dollars, as a country, intomaking sure we're at the
forefront of all this, so thatwhatever anybody else does down
here, we've got Something tocounter, counter with. And I
don't mean beat them. I don'tmean making, well, beating a bad
(31:45):
actor for sure, but not beating,like other countries, but like,
just making sure that, you know,hey, we're going to show the
world how we can do this, how wecan get to a point where people
don't need to work as much, theycan have a higher quality of
life, and they don't have toworry about bad actors, and I
think all those things arepossible with the right
leadership.
Joey Romero (32:05):
Well, that's going to do it for part one of our
interview with Sean O'Toole, CEOand Founder of PropertyRadar. Be
sure to tune in next week forpart two.
Narrator (32:13):
For more information on hard money loans, trust deed
investing, and upcoming eventswith The Norris group. Check out
thenorrisgroup.com. For moreinformation on passive investing
through the DBL Capital RealEstate Investment Fund, please
visit dblapital.com.
Joey Romero (32:33):
The Norris Group originates and services loans in
California and Florida underCalifornia DRE license 01219911.
Florida mortgage lender license1577 and NMLS license 1623669.
For more information on hardmoney lending go to
thenorrisgroup.com and click thehard money tab.
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