October 17, 2025 • 43 mins
We sit down with Dr. Gregory C. Hutchings Jr., teacher, principal, superintendent, consultant, and now professor at Howard University, to map a leadership journey that breaks barriers without losing its compass. From making history in Shaker Heights as the first Black superintendent at 35 to steering Alexandria City Public Schools through a pandemic and political crosswinds, Dr. Hutchings shares how his VIP framework (Vision, Integrity, Passion) kept him grounded while centering Black and Brown students.
You’ll hear the inside story of pushing for equity in districts known for tradition, what happens when you change who sits at the table, and why authenticity, down to how a family shows up, matters in public leadership. We explore measurable wins that challenge false tradeoffs between equity and excellence: higher graduation rates, full accreditation, and a strategic plan with equity at its core despite statewide retrenchment. Then we zoom out to the national stage as Dr. Hutchings steps from the superintendency into movement work, founding Revolutionary Ed and Hutchings & Associates, to help boards and leaders dismantle systemic racism with strategy, governance, and coaching.
- Origin story and early shift into education
- Becoming the first Black superintendent in Shaker Heights City Schools
- VIP leadership model: vision, integrity, passion
- Authenticity, family, and community grounding
- Legacy in Alexandria amid pandemic and politics
- Equity results: graduation, accreditation, new campus
- Burnout, therapy, and sustainable leadership
- Moving from district leader to national systems builder
- Howard University role and the leadership pipeline
- Research on Black women superintendents and solutions
- Pipelines, networks, and board relations for equity
🔗 Find out more about Dr. JeffriAnne Wilder.
🔗 Follow the Center for DEI Innovation and Leadership on LinkedIn.
🌎Visit Oberlin College's website.
Podcast Produced by: Paradigm Media Group
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the North Star.
I'm Dr.
Jeffrey Ann Wilder, ExecutiveDirector of the Oberlin Center
for DEI Innovation andLeadership.
This season we're exploringdisruption, the moments when
leaders choose to challengesystems, shift perspectives, and
chart new paths.
My guest today is Dr.
(00:20):
Gregory C.
Hutchins Jr., a nationaleducation leader and scholar
whose career spans teacher,principal, superintendent,
consultant, and now professor atHoward University.
We'll talk about his leadershipjourney, his current research,
and what it means to createchange in today's climate.
(00:42):
Welcome, Dr.
Hutchings.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Yes, thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And congratulations to you.
I think you're the year two,right?
Of this new role.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
I love it.
Really, really excited.
And I have to say, I know thatwe have seen each other in
passing at various times.
And it has been, I've beenreally excited to have the
opportunity to sit down and talkto you.
We have shared sort of hadintersecting paths at different
points.
I worked at Shaker HeightsSchool District.
(01:16):
Not at the same time that youworked at Shaker Heights School
District.
I'm a professor, you're aprofessor.
And so we've got a lot to talkabout today.
So let's get into it.
Before we jump into yourprofessional career and your
leadership journey, I love anorigin story, right?
So can you tell us a little bitabout your origin story?
(01:40):
Tell us a little bit about whereyou're from and what sort of
shaped you into the person thatyou are today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Yeah.
Well, first off, I'm born andraised.
I feel like I'm a fresh princeand I'm from West Philadelphia,
but I'm not born and raised.
I'm from Alexandria, Virginia,uh outside of Washington, D.C.,
um, which is amazing because Ibecame the superintendent of the
school district that raised me,right?
Which was pretty awesome to do,which I know we'll talk about a
(02:10):
little later.
Um, but I'm from Alexandria.
I got here because my father, heis a graduate of Howard
University.
And um, when he was uh he wasgraduated from Howard, actually
the day he graduated fromHoward, I was born Friday the
13th.
I know May 13th, 1977.
My dad was he was graduatingfrom, they have the School of
(02:35):
Business graduation was on thatFriday.
The big graduation was on thatSaturday or Sunday or something
like that.
But everyone down for my dad'sgraduation.
So people would send me cardsfor years that I didn't really
know in my family becauseeveryone can't remember my birth
(02:55):
because I was born.
And, you know, go figure I'm nowa professor at Howard
University, which is prettyamazing to me.
But, you know, a part of my mystory is just the simple fact I
was raised in a household, eventhough my dad was a Howard
University graduate.
My parents got a divorce, and mymom was a single mom, raising
(03:15):
three children and Alex Andrea.
And I knew not early on that Iwas gonna be an educator because
when I was in high school, Ithought I was gonna be Marcus
from Boomerang and working inNew York.
That's not good.
That is not good.
I thought I was gonna bemarrying a Halle Berry or
(03:36):
something, you know.
So uh which I got my own HalleBerry, my wife, Cheryl.
But 23 years, by the way.
But I thought I was going intomarketing and I thought I was
gonna be an actor.
I had all these aspirations togo to Hollywood and LA and um
and I got to, you know, tocollege.
And right after college, I wasan admissions counselor and I
(03:56):
realized education was where Ithink I was supposed to be.
And I'm glad I made thatdecision.
Her name was Joyce Sigmundson,who was a principal at River
Oaks Elementary School in PrinceWilliam County.
I was an admissions counselorfor Old Domain at the time.
And she said, You would be agreat teacher.
Here's my business card.
Call me whenever you're ready todo the call for teaching.
(04:17):
And three months later, I gaveher a call.
It was like October of 2000.
So the school year had alreadystarted.
I called her and she said, Youknow what?
I have a position that'savailable.
Can you come interview tomorrow?
And I was like, Tomorrow?
You know, so I went,interviewed, and the rest was
history.
I became a teacher October 2000at River Oaks Elementary School
(04:41):
as a fifth grade teacher, nothaving kids at that time, wasn't
married or anything, and justnow responsible for these 25
kids, which was crazy andintimidating, but I survived and
the rest is history.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
25 years ago.
25 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
25 years ago.
Yep.
25 years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
Oh my goodness, what an origin story.
So let's let's fast forward thetape a little bit.
You kind of scared me a littlebit saying Marcus from
Boomerang, because I I Icompletely didn't even
completely forgot what hisprofession was.
I was thinking about the playertype, right?
So that made me a little bit.
(05:22):
Right.
That all of that part.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
He was a marketing executive.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Right.
Right.
So 25 years later, then youserved in a variety of
educational administration rolesafter sort of setting, starting
out in the classroom.
(05:47):
And then you end up getting acall from Shaker Heights City
School District, which is in theCleveland, Ohio area, which is
my hometown.
And you made history.
Right?
Let's let's let's spend a littletime talking about the history
that you made because or ashumble as you want to kind of
(06:08):
talk about these beginnings,it's pretty story.
So for those folks who may notknow, um, Shaker Heights, Ohio
is a first-ranked uh suburb.
It really it borders the city ofCleveland.
It's a small, it neighbors thecity of Cleveland, small, very
diverse community neighboringthe city of Cleveland, and has
(06:30):
its own distinctive, uniquehistory of integration.
And at 35 years old, you becametheir first black
superintendent, right?
And as I said earlier, we're wewere spending season two of this
(06:52):
podcast talking aboutdisruption, and you know, Shaker
Heights has been written about alot by a lot of people over the
course of Shaker's history,particularly as it relates to
the education arena, right?
So people write a lot aboutShaker Heights and thinking
about the educational outcomes.
I studied about Shaker Heightseven as a doctoral student and
(07:16):
thinking about educationaloutcomes.
There is a journalist by thename of Laura Mechler who wrote
a couple years ago a book calledDream Town, where she talks, she
tells the story of racial equityin Shaker.
And you actually have a chapterin that book.
We're not gonna get into a lotabout what she writes in Shaker,
(07:37):
uh writes about you in thatbook.
I want you to tell the storyabout what it meant for you to
make history in Shaker as asuperintendent.
What did that mean for you towalk into Shaker Heights as a
35-year-old first blacksuperintendent in that school
district?
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yes, first off, I I want to just thank Shaker
Heights for the opportunity,right?
For believing in me, becausethat the board took a
significant risk in hiring me.
You know, tell me more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (08:10):
Why was that risky?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Well, because I was coming after Mark Freeman, who
was there for 25 years as asuperintendent, right?
He was seasoned, he was Jewish,he was in the community, he was
a teacher in that community, sowell, well known, well
respected.
And you have this young,ambitious black man coming in,
(08:34):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
And not from the community, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
And not from the community from the outside, not
even from you know, I'm fromVirginia.
Um my mom is from Dayton, Ohio,though.
And my my aunt and uncle, theylive in Cleveland Heights.
So I have been to the areabefore, but I had never thought
that I would be thesuperintendent of Shaker
Heights.
I mean, I read about Shaker inmy grad program.
(08:57):
So when I got the call to becomesuperintendent, I I literally I
was so honored for the call.
And I knew that being the firstblack superintendent, I was
going to be unapologetic and Iwas gonna have to go in and to
do what I felt I was called todo.
(09:19):
And that was to disrupt, thatwas to make sure that our black
families in Shaker Heights had avoice, had a seat at the table,
and that their needs were gonnabe met.
I always say I just did aninterview recently about Shaker,
and I had shared with them thatShaker was one of the best jobs
that I've had, but also one ofthe most challenging jobs that I
(09:42):
had because I grew up as aleader with Shaker.
You know, I came in to Shaker,the sky's the limit, right?
Which I still have thatphilosophy right now, the sky's
the limit.
Like I think I can do all thingsthrough Christ that strengthens
me, right?
But I came in and I didn't havea lot of lead executive
(10:03):
leadership experience, right?
So I wasn't quite a strategicthinker when I started at
Shaker.
I was a strategic plannerbecause I was specialized in
that in my doctoral program, butI wasn't a strategic thinker
yet.
And when I got there and Istarted making decisions around
our black families and goinginto the community and saying,
(10:26):
you know, I need certain peopleto be at this table that were
never at the table before, Ididn't expect to get some of the
pushback that I received.
Because I felt like you allhired you.
I I was honest as to who I wasin my interview.
I told you what I believed inand you all hired me.
So why are people now upset thatI'm doing what I said I was
(10:48):
gonna do?
Like I told you what was gonnahappen, you know?
But I was a little taken back bythat.
And it it caused me to reallyget tougher skin, right?
I think just being black inAmerica prepares you for a lot
more than we believe as AfricanAmericans.
So I think my life prepared mefor Shaker, but going through
(11:10):
some of the opposition reallychallenged, challenged me.
And that is when I begin to usethe acronym VIP.
Not very important people, butvision, integrity, and passion.
Shaker pushed me to have vision.
It pushed me to stay true to myintegrity, it pushed me to
continue to have the passion soI can come back and do the work,
(11:33):
even when it's not fun andexciting and rewarding, right?
That you're still gonna dowhat's right.
And I commend them for that.
I also thank Shaker for, yougotta think, when I started
Shaker Heights, our kids werethree and eight, which they're
now 15 and 20, right?
Oh, it's crazy.
Our daughters now, she's ajunior in college, our son's a
(11:55):
junior in high school.
But coming to Shaker with ayoung family, I still remember
my wife saying, because at thetime she had she and her hair
was natural, right?
She had she just cut her hair,she got rid of her perm, and
she's like, I'll do it now.
She's like, Well, do I need topress, do I need to blow out my
hair?
You know what I was like.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Your wife making questioning what she should do
with her hair.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
My wife, what should she do with her hair?
I remember we're having thisconversation, like, should I
blow my hair out?
Should I look like the firstlady?
Like, should I put on a dress?
You know, like so going throughall this, and I said, you know
what, Cheryl, just be you.
Be, well, you know what you seeis what you get, right?
We don't need to change who weare going to the community.
And she came there with hernatural hair and our daughter's
(12:42):
natural hair.
You know, my wife still blowsher hair.
They both my wife and daughter,they blow their hair out
sometimes.
But um, it came with theirnatural hair, and we came in and
we said, we're gonna beauthentically black, and we're
going to remain who we are andjoin our black church, which we
didn't go to the Catholic churchto visit, but I knew I wasn't
joining the Catholic Church.
(13:03):
I went to the synagogue tovisit, so I wouldn't join the
synagogue, but we joined OliveInstitutional Baptist Church,
which Pastor Coven is still myforever pastor.
But we we really embraced and wewere in Jack and Jill there.
So we embraced our black cultureand remained ourselves.
One final thing I do want tosay, other than the accolades we
(13:23):
have from Shaker, because Laura,when she wrote her book, she I
almost didn't talk to Laura towrite my chapter of the book
because she did an article aboutme when I first came to
Alexandria that was very, I feltdisrespectful and untrue.
Uh, and I called her out onthat.
(13:43):
And I told myself, I ain't nevertalking to that woman again.
You know, like, and then whenshe calls me about this book
she's writing, I'm like, I Itold my executive assistant,
absolutely not, hang up on her.
I ain't talking to her, right?
So um she calls back and shesays, you know, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna write this chapter,whether you talk to me or not.
(14:04):
And I and I thought about thatfor a minute.
I said, okay, so let me let meat least give her the benefit of
the doubt and let me just behonest with her before we have
the interview.
And I told her straight up, Ididn't like the way you wrote
that article about me.
And I did not appreciate it, andI think it was very
disrespectful and it was false.
So if you're gonna write thischapter, you need to let me
(14:27):
speak my truth.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
I went on a whole nother tangent because I was
thinking about it.
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
This is this is actually the reason why I
brought the brought in LauraMeckler's book.
And I I mean, I know that it wasvery popular, and I think that
it was received in a a lot ofdifferent ways.
I joined Shaker in 2020 duringthe height of the pandemic, and
really I think all the thingsthat you mentioned about your
(14:55):
work at Shaker and thechallenges that you experience
at Shaker resonate with me in alot of ways because I joined
Shaker in 2020, really basedupon a lot of the work, really
the seeds that were plantedduring the time that you were
the superintendent, right?
The work around creating, reallymaking educational equity being
(15:18):
at the forefront of the work atShaker.
And when I walked into the roleof Shaker's first executive
director of diversity, equity,and inclusion, my work was so
important and really I I won'tsay easy, but when by the time I
got there, people were like,Let's get to work because of a
(15:41):
lot of the seeds and a lot ofthe work that had been done
during the time that you werethere, the equity task force,
all the things that had that youhad put into action.
By the time I got there in 2020,people were like, let's get to
work because there was so muchthat had already been done as a
result of the work that you haddone and the work that David
(16:01):
David Glasner had put into workby the time that I was there.
P.S.
Every time that Laura Meckler uhrequested an interview from me,
I turned her down.
Nah, I'm not interested in beingin the work.
But I do think it's fair.
One thing I will say about yourparticular chapter, I could
definitely tell that it was verymuch balanced given what was
(16:23):
written.
And I really appreciated the thelevel of aut authenticity that
was written about yourexperience that was there.
I think, you know, what you justmentioned, walking into that
role as the first and theyoungest superintendent of color
in Shaker in such a storiedfashion, given the history,
(16:46):
given the distinctiveness of thedistrict, of course, was going
to be challenging.
And even thinking about youright, Shaker is the national
merit finalist, Shaker is thestudent who struggles to
graduate in five years, right?
So the expectations were very,very high.
And thinking about all thechallenges that you faced,
(17:08):
definitely not surprising.
But in thinking about the themeof disruption, Mark Joseph, who
is a faculty member at CaseWestern Reserve and one of the
folks who really rallied to getyou there wrote about your being
the superintendent at Shaker,said quote, we got a big
(17:28):
disruption to the status quo.
It kind of shook us up and willnever be the same in a good way.
So that's really important tothink about the legacy that you
left at Shaker, because then youtake that, and as you we talked
about your story, you leftShaker, right?
And so, like LeBron, right, whocame back to Cleveland, right?
(17:51):
Went back to your hometown ofAlexandria to become the
superintendent.
You do that.
What was your legacy inAlexandria being the
superintendent there?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
You know, um, it was a tough decision actually for me
to apply to Alexandria becauseat the time people didn't know
this, but I was being recruitedto go to some other districts
from Shaker.
And I had just signed anothercontract to say I'm gonna stay.
So then Alexandria opened up andI applied to the Alexandria job
(18:25):
the last day and was open.
Because I knew I said, if Isubmit my application, I think
I'm gonna get the job.
I really believe I'm gonna getthis job if I submit this.
So do I really want to do this?
I my mom, we had moved my mom toShaker Heights to help us out
with the kids.
You know, like we loved our, wehad our community, we loved our
(18:47):
home.
We'll never get a house like wehad at Shaker again, a historic
1920, what it, 1928 orsomething.
It was a beautiful historicaltutor style home.
And I'm like, am I gonna leaveall this?
Because I'm I'm good.
I feel great.
I've we're making progress, I'mmaking good money, I love the
community, but there's no placelike home.
(19:08):
And one thing that I realizedcoming back to Alexandria was
that, yes, people said the goatwas coming back home and all
these types of things, but thatchallenges came with that too.
What I've realized in Alexandriawas that, um, because I was far
removed from Alexandria after Igraduated from high school,
(19:29):
because my mom moved toMaryland.
So I would go back to visitFriends, but I didn't live there
anymore until I was a directorthere many years later.
But what I realized inAlexandria was that we had a lot
of liberal races in a city wherethe first Africans arrived in
this country and were dispersedall over America.
(19:49):
And because of the heart ofracism that resonated in the
city of Alexandria, it was inthe heart of all the work that I
was hired to do.
I was the second blacksuperintendent in Alexandria.
Alvin Crawley was the firstblack superintendent who was
right before me.
So we were back to back, whichpeople you don't typically see a
(20:11):
black hire, another black personget hired after black person.
It's rare, right?
But um the interim person was awhite woman, Lois Berlin.
She was the uh interim before Icame in, but she didn't want the
job.
She was just there until theyhired a new superintendent.
And God rests, you know, Dr.
Crawley's soul, because hepassed away a couple of years
ago.
But he paved the way, really,for me, because he was taking a
(20:37):
very strong stance on equity.
He was talking about it, and itwas kind of like how you said I
I was getting things preparedfor when you got to Shaker.
People were saying, let's do.
It was similar when I got toAlexandria, like, okay, well,
now let's do.
And I had thought going toAlexandria because it was such a
(20:58):
liberal community in my hometownthat it would be easier than
Shaker.
And it actually was morechallenging than Shaker.
So Alexandria was harder for methan Shaker Heights.
And then you have to add 2020with the pandemic, and uh, you
know, you got to think of, youknow, our whole racial reckoning
(21:21):
in America happening.
You have to think of the factthat when I became
superintendent in Alexandria,President Trump, the first
round, was become president ofthe United States, which is
right across the water.
And Betsy DeVos was, you know,our U.S.
Secretary of Education.
So because we're we were soclose to the nation's capital, I
(21:42):
was in the heart of all of thepolitics.
And that was just an additionallayer that Shaker didn't have.
Shaker, I mean, they hadpolitics, but it wasn't DC
politics, right?
It was just a little different.
So I had some challenges, but mylegacy was that we were
unapologetic.
Like, I mean, in Alexandria,because I knew that Alexandria
(22:04):
was going to be the lastsuperintendency.
I knew that going in when I gothired, I told them I wasn't
gonna go anywhere else becausethere's no place like home.
Like, who's gonna top myhometown?
It wasn't my goal to have acareer uh and to retire as a
superintendent.
I became a superintendent 35.
I knew I wasn't gonna do it for30 years.
That just wasn't gonna be mything.
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
So you to so you knew going in that two things
that this was gonna be it foryou, and that this wasn't
necessarily going to be a longtenure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Not 30 years.
Now I didn't think it was gonnabe five.
unknown (22:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Um, and I was committed to 10.
I was I almost did 10, but Ibelieve what happened for me was
if the pandemic didn't occur, Iprobably still would be
finishing my contract inAlexandria.
I was exhausted.
Like the pandemic, it caused somuch anxiety for me when we were
(23:02):
gone having to make medicaldecisions.
Like I'm not a medical doctor,I'm an education doctor, right?
So it's just a little differentwhen you you got people's lives
at stake and I'm making thefinal decision.
That was a lot of stress for me.
I had to see, which I still seemy therapist even now from that.
I was starting to have anxietyattacks, which I never had in my
(23:22):
life until then, that nobodyknew I had to still show up
every day and be the leader andbe calm and be, you know, um
firm and confident in what I'msaying.
But then at behind closed doors,I was broken and tired and
exhausted and afraid.
But I knew that I was gonna needto get everybody back into our
(23:45):
schools and get us on the rightpath before I could throw in the
top.
So I committed to doing that fortwo additional years, even
though I was really done in2020.
I stayed at 2022.
And I think, you know, throughthat time, we changed to school
names.
We built a new um campus of thehigh school.
(24:06):
We started a new equity plan,the first time in the state of
Virginia to have a strategicplan that's focused on equity,
right?
Um, and all of this washappening when we had just hired
a new governor who was one ofPresident Trump's friends in the
state of Virginia who prettymuch banned equity and all of
(24:27):
the equity work that we had doneas a state was deleted or
erased.
That was a huge uphill battlethat, you know, I was I was
fighting here.
But I I want to believe, and Istill believe, because I still
I'm still close to folks inAlexandria because that's my
hometown.
They are still doing the work.
Right.
And we were able to have thehighest graduation rate in 20
(24:49):
years under my leadership.
We were able to have all of ourschools accredited for the first
time in 25 years of ourleadership in Alexandria.
So I knew when I informed theboard that I was going to be
resigning from my position in2022, I knew that we had made it
to heights that they had nevermade it before.
(25:10):
And it was hard for them to be,I mean, of course, people don't
want to go, but it's hard to beupset because I did take us to
another level.
I didn't leave it the way Iwalked in.
And same as Shaker, right?
No matter what folks will say,if you go look at the data, the
data will show you that progresswas made.
Um, and even, you know, when uhI think Laura said this a couple
of times, you know, well, thethe process changed for the
(25:33):
state.
You came in as an F and you leftas a B, and that's not a true
statement.
And I said, well, if every, ifif that's not a true statement,
every school system in Ohio thathad an F would have been a B
when I left.
If that wasn't a true statement.
And every school district wasnot.
Some were still F's.
So it wasn't the system thatgave us a B, right?
(25:55):
It was the work that we didthere.
And it was us really making surethat students, particularly our
black and brown students, thatthey mattered and that they had
the access and that we alsobelieved in them.
One thing that I brought toShaker and Alexandria was a very
strong belief system.
(26:15):
One thing for me, I mean, I'm aperson that I love hard, right?
So it's good for my wife, right?
Because like I mean when I makea commitment, it's like I'm
committed.
So 23 years, it's hard to saymerit, but I'm committed.
So I'm but I I love hard.
I'm that same way when it comesto the passion in schools and
(26:39):
for our young people, especiallyour black and brown people.
I'm so passionate that it's byany means necessary.
You will not ruin their lives,you will not put systems in
place that prevent them fromachieving whatever goal they set
for themselves.
You will not tell them that theycan't.
It would always be if you wantto do something, we're gonna
(26:59):
help you get there, right?
And that was the mentality thatI carried in Shaker and
Alexandria.
And I think for both, that'sprobably the legacy I hope they
will remember about me.
And that I also did it with asmile.
I never came in having to, youknow, be like an aggressive type
person, right?
(27:20):
Now I can be stern and I cantell you what I want and what I
need at a particular time, butI'm not someone who tries to
make fear to get you to do whatI want.
I gotta put fear in you to dosomething, and there's no point
you even working here.
So like I I will help get yourway on out by just turning up
the heat in regards to holdingyou accountable, not in being
(27:41):
mean to you, just telling youthis is what's expected.
And if you can't live up to it,then you know, take your take
yourself somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Well, the legacy continues, right?
Just now in a different way.
So you decided to transitionfrom being a superintendent at
Alexandria because there wasjust a lot happening and quite
(28:09):
frankly, you were burnt out.
Makes sense.
But like all good leaders, youfound a path as a professor.
And really, what's reallyinteresting to me is thinking
about shifting the pathway andsort of thinking about improving
or bridging that achievementgap, right?
(28:31):
So at the earlier part of yourcareer as an educator and then
as an administrator, you know,you were improving educational
outcomes, bridging thatachievement gap as an
administrator, superintendent,but now you're doing that by
continuing to complete thepipeline, if you will, by
(28:55):
addressing womensuperintendents.
So, um, as a current facultymember at Howard University,
your research right now looks atthe experiences of black women
superintendents.
Can you walk us through thatresearch and why that is such an
(29:16):
important piece and addressingboth the pipeline issue, but
also more importantly, lookingat uh bridging, continuing to
abridge educational outcomes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
So, right before I go into that, can I just add one
piece?
Please.
Because there's one connectorthat we missed out.
So I was tired, right?
And I was exhausted.
And I was also compelled to domore.
So when I left thesuperintendency in Alexandria, I
(29:49):
had written a book, Getting intoGood Trouble at School, which is
a guide to building an antiracist school system.
And I felt that this country atthat particular time was.
At this racial crossroads, andme being pigeonholed in one
district is not allowing me totruly be my authentic self.
(30:09):
And that was why I was so tired.
So I knew that I'm not going tobe able to speak openly and
honestly without all of theseconsequences and everything
being referred back to, youknow, Dr.
Hutchings is just doing this forhis own reputation and to build
his own brand and image, right?
I got tired of hearing that somuch versus why can't it be that
(30:32):
this is a black man who istrying to advocate for black
children?
Why does it have to be about me?
Right.
I wrote my book for people toserve the needs of black and
brown children across America.
And then I said, I want to takeit even further and start my own
business, which I startedRevolutionary Ed, which focused
on dismantling systemic racismin public education across
(30:53):
America, which now I have twobusinesses, Revolutionary Ed and
Hutchinson Associates, whichdoes executive coaching and
strategic planning and schoolboard relations.
Right.
So I'm making sure that we arecreating that foundation.
So that led to if I am settingthis foundation for school
districts across the country, Ineed to make sure I'm putting my
(31:16):
time, my energy, my effortswhere my mouth is as well.
So I need to help produce thenext superintendents of America
so that they have thatfoundation and that they're able
to withstand what this world isbringing.
So I knew that I'm stillstanding, right?
(31:37):
I knew that I've done someradical things.
I knew that I've beenrevolutionary.
I knew that I've been able toovercome adversity.
And I still have life.
I still feel I'm in good health,right?
I'm still a believer.
I'm still excited about thiswork, right?
In spite of all of those things.
Let me make sure that this nextgeneration has that kind of
(31:59):
grounding so that they can toostand tall and not be pushed
down or beaten.
And that led me to HowardUniversity, which to me is the
Mecca.
That is the epitome of wherewe're going to produce black
leaders who, one, canunapologetically be black, two,
(32:21):
will have the ability to be thescholar practitioner to
dismantle the systemic racism inpublic education or in
education, just in generalacross America.
And that was why I wanted to doresearch on black
superintendents.
And when I decided that that wasgoing to be my research focus,
(32:41):
black superintendents, becauseI'm a black superintendent and I
had to overcome all the things Ijust shared, a theme came out of
that work.
And the theme was black womenand intersectionality and the
challenges that they have.
And that led me to say, okay,when this is the one remark that
I heard repeatedly that stuckwith me and is still driving me
(33:05):
to do this research in regardsto black women's
superintendents.
Black women's superintendentstold me that they felt black men
did not support them throughouttheir tenure.
Black women's superintendentstold me some of their biggest
advocates were white men.
I was shocked to hear that.
I've been a black feminist mywhole life.
I guess I'm raised by a blackwoman.
(33:26):
I got a black wife, you know, Igot black daughters.
So I have always been anadvocate for black women.
I have always been an ally, acheerleader, a promoter, you
know.
Black women, I had I hired a lotof black women for my teams.
They never had issues withsalary.
They never, like I always gavethe highest salary out.
(33:47):
Like I had always been in thatspace.
And I, but I was in kind of likemy own bubble.
And I didn't realize that thatwasn't the way black women have
perceived their journey.
And um, because I was so takenback by that, it forced me to
(34:07):
say, okay, well, let me dig alittle deeper and find out what
is going on that is preventingone, black men from valuing our
black women and holding them upand lifting them up.
And two, also even other blackwomen.
Some of the black women saidthat they some of their biggest
nemesis are other black women,which I was like, wow, you know.
(34:31):
Um, so uh, which I heard my wifesay certain things, she's not an
education.
She, you know, she's a businessowner, she owns a CPA firm, so
she's in a business world, butshe said some of the same things
that she found some of her mostchallenges have been with other
black women instead of beinglifted up um by each other.
So this is why I'm doing thisresearch now.
(34:52):
And what I'm finding is thatblack women, as Mark Malcolm X
said this in the 60s, the blackwoman is the most disrespected
person in America.
I believe the black womansuperintendent is the most
disrespected educator inAmerica, but the black woman is
the most educated person inAmerica, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
So I'm gonna just not necessarily play in devil's
advocate, but as someone who hassupervised a ton of doc students
and that sort of thing, whatwhat are we what are you hoping
your research is going to helpinform our field of education?
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Ten years from now, this research is going to be the
most widely cited in this areabecause so this research, it's
not about see so I I believe inhaving problem investigators,
right?
So you find all these problems,but I also believe in having
problem solvers.
(35:54):
And I'm hoping that thisresearch will create pipelines
that will allow this nextgeneration of black women to not
have to go over as manyobstacles, right?
So that they we're being we'reputting systems.
This is what I, and this is whywe had our black women
reconvening just a couple ofweeks ago through Howard
University.
Our dean had this vision, and webrought black women
(36:17):
superintendents from all overthe country together to do a
reconvening to talk about questand to talk about the importance
of leadership and howintersectionally causes you to
feel overwhelmed.
These are the types of thingsthat I think my research is
going to bring about.
Supports for black women,networks for black women, how do
(36:37):
board members work with blackwomen's superintendents?
How do black women'ssuperintendents work with each
other?
What do what does a solidnetwork that's going to uplift
black women to be the best theycan possibly be?
What will that look like?
Right.
So that's what I'm hoping thatthis research does.
That it does reveal some of theproblems, but also some of the
(37:01):
greatness and solutions toensure black women can be
successful and will be, so thatthey won't continue to be
scapegoated and hired to dojobs, that they get fired to do
the same job they were hired todo.
They didn't even cause theproblem, but now they're losing
their jobs.
And I have a lot of my blackwomen superintendent sisters who
are in those situations thathave lost their jobs for no
(37:25):
reason.
No reason at all, but becausethey are black women and
misunderstood, but then hiredwhen the sky literally is
falling and there's no way butup.
And they make the most progressand they get fired for the
problem they didn't even cause,which is which is absolutely
(37:45):
nuts to me.
And it happens to black men too,but it's happening to black
women at greater rates.
And less than 2% of oursuperintendents across America
right now are black women.
There was research that I justspoke with one of my colleagues,
and she shared this with me.
She's doing research on blackwomen superintendents across
America.
There are 26 states right nowthat does not have a black woman
(38:08):
as a superintendent.
26 states.
That's more than half that donot have a black woman in the
entire state as asuperintendent.
Across the districts acrosstheir districts.
Across the United States ofAmerica.
That to me is unbelievable.
And when you think about whenyou add black men into the
(38:28):
picture, it's only 3% ofsuperintendents across America
are black.
That's it.
Right?
So this work is going to allowfor this next generation of one
to know that you can do it.
Because I think a lot of folksgoing through these ranks right
now and being in some of theseeducation programs, especially
if you're at other schools, it'snot happening to HBCUs.
(38:50):
It's definitely not happening toHoward.
But I think some people, blackfolks who are in education, they
are being pushed into thinkingthat they can't do certain
things or that things aren'tpossible.
You can't be a or you can't be,you know, a leader of an
organization, or you can't be aprincipal, or right.
(39:12):
So they're being influenced.
And I think sometimes there's afalse narrative that makes them
feel like they can't dosomething.
We need to begin to havepipelines to let young people
before they even get intoeducation know you can, right?
You can be a principal, you canbe a superintendent, you can
lead a school district, right?
(39:32):
And we also need to, aseducators, stop saying, don't go
into education.
Because we we are sometimesdiscrediting our own education
by saying, Don't go intoeducation.
Education is the best field inthe world, it molds any and
everything that this world does.
It's the most powerful job inAmerica, it's the most powerful
job in the world, right?
Like who would want to be aneducator?
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
Has that power of multiplication, right?
And just like that woman whogave you that business card that
you had, and she said, Oh, I gota job for you.
As we close, I always close withthree rapid fire questions.
Something that has made yousmile big this week.
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Our family.
I feel really blessed.
I fan every time I think thisweek, I thought about our
family, just my wife and our twokids.
And we it's full circle becauseour daughter was born here.
We now live in the Richmondarea, right outside of Richmond,
Virginia.
And our daughter, we came herewhen we first got married, we
(40:37):
built our first home here, and20 years later, we're back into
the same area.
Not necessarily in the samecity, but close to the same
area, and it's full circle, andI feel extremely blessed.
That makes me smile.
And I thought about that thisweek.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
And you're going into your 20, 25 years since you
started an education.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yeah, since I started in education.
30 years out of, I just had my30th high school reunion.
Which is great.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
Not me, you.
You told us what you were born.
So I mean you set yourself upfor that one.
Something that keeps you up atnight.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
Something that keeps me up at night.
Wow, this the state of thiscountry.
The state of this country.
Right now, we are we are we'reat a significant crossroads.
But I also it keeps me up atnight, but I also know there's
hope because I stay in tune toour history.
(41:35):
And I think of as AfricanAmericans and as Africans who
were first brought to thiscountry, right?
Unwillingly brought to thiscountry and work for free.
We have overcome so much thatthis too show patterns.
I still have hope because wewe've been in worse situations
than this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
I I I hear that a lot.
Um and last question as weclose, what is your North Star
in this work?
The guiding principle that keepsmoving you forward?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Well, I mean, it goes back to my VIP acronym,
Vision, Integrity, Passion,right?
I mean, that is probably myNorth Star.
I think if I ever lose one ofthose things, my work is done.
And it's funny because my wife,she is talking about she's
(42:28):
retiring, this semi-retirementwhen she turns 50, right?
Which is next year.
And I don't see that on thehorizons for me.
I see me always doing work, thiskind of work.
I still, I still see me being atHoward as a professor and them
telling, Dr.
Hutchins, you need to retire.
(42:50):
You need to move on, right?
And I can see me still saying, Iwant a young person to come in
and teach the class, but I wantto be an advisor to somebody,
right?
And share my story and sharewhat I've learned from all these
different generations becauseworking with next generation
leaders keeps you in the momentand keeps you present and it
keeps me alive.
(43:10):
So VIP is what's in our NorthStar.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Love it.
Thank you so much, Dr.
Gregory C.
Hutchins Jr., founder and CEO ofRevolutionary Ed Hutchins and
Associates, and author ofGetting Into Good Trouble at
School, a guide to building ananti racist school system.
Thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (43:33):
Thank you.
I'm so proud of you too, Dr.
Waters.
Thank you for me and all thatyou're doing.
I want to give you your flowerswhen we're here.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
Welcome to the North Star.
I'm Dr.
Jeffrey Ann Wilder, ExecutiveDirector of the Oberlin Center
for DEI Innovation andLeadership.
This season we're exploringdisruption, the moments when
leaders choose to challengesystems, shift perspectives, and
chart new paths.
My guest today is Dr.
(00:20):
Gregory C.
Hutchins Jr., a nationaleducation leader and scholar
whose career spans teacher,principal, superintendent,
consultant, and now professor atHoward University.
We'll talk about his leadershipjourney, his current research,
and what it means to createchange in today's climate.
(00:42):
Welcome, Dr.
Hutchings.
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
Yes, thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And congratulations to you.
I think you're the year two,right?
Of this new role.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
I love it.
Really, really excited.
And I have to say, I know thatwe have seen each other in
passing at various times.
And it has been, I've beenreally excited to have the
opportunity to sit down and talkto you.
We have shared sort of hadintersecting paths at different
points.
I worked at Shaker HeightsSchool District.
(01:16):
Not at the same time that youworked at Shaker Heights School
District.
I'm a professor, you're aprofessor.
And so we've got a lot to talkabout today.
So let's get into it.
Before we jump into yourprofessional career and your
leadership journey, I love anorigin story, right?
So can you tell us a little bitabout your origin story?
(01:40):
Tell us a little bit about whereyou're from and what sort of
shaped you into the person thatyou are today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Yeah.
Well, first off, I'm born andraised.
I feel like I'm a fresh princeand I'm from West Philadelphia,
but I'm not born and raised.
I'm from Alexandria, Virginia,uh outside of Washington, D.C.,
um, which is amazing because Ibecame the superintendent of the
school district that raised me,right?
Which was pretty awesome to do,which I know we'll talk about a
(02:10):
little later.
Um, but I'm from Alexandria.
I got here because my father, heis a graduate of Howard
University.
And um, when he was uh he wasgraduated from Howard, actually
the day he graduated fromHoward, I was born Friday the
13th.
I know May 13th, 1977.
My dad was he was graduatingfrom, they have the School of
(02:35):
Business graduation was on thatFriday.
The big graduation was on thatSaturday or Sunday or something
like that.
But everyone down for my dad'sgraduation.
So people would send me cardsfor years that I didn't really
know in my family becauseeveryone can't remember my birth
(02:55):
because I was born.
And, you know, go figure I'm nowa professor at Howard
University, which is prettyamazing to me.
But, you know, a part of my mystory is just the simple fact I
was raised in a household, eventhough my dad was a Howard
University graduate.
My parents got a divorce, and mymom was a single mom, raising
(03:15):
three children and Alex Andrea.
And I knew not early on that Iwas gonna be an educator because
when I was in high school, Ithought I was gonna be Marcus
from Boomerang and working inNew York.
That's not good.
That is not good.
I thought I was gonna bemarrying a Halle Berry or
(03:36):
something, you know.
So uh which I got my own HalleBerry, my wife, Cheryl.
But 23 years, by the way.
But I thought I was going intomarketing and I thought I was
gonna be an actor.
I had all these aspirations togo to Hollywood and LA and um
and I got to, you know, tocollege.
And right after college, I wasan admissions counselor and I
(03:56):
realized education was where Ithink I was supposed to be.
And I'm glad I made thatdecision.
Her name was Joyce Sigmundson,who was a principal at River
Oaks Elementary School in PrinceWilliam County.
I was an admissions counselorfor Old Domain at the time.
And she said, You would be agreat teacher.
Here's my business card.
Call me whenever you're ready todo the call for teaching.
(04:17):
And three months later, I gaveher a call.
It was like October of 2000.
So the school year had alreadystarted.
I called her and she said, Youknow what?
I have a position that'savailable.
Can you come interview tomorrow?
And I was like, Tomorrow?
You know, so I went,interviewed, and the rest was
history.
I became a teacher October 2000at River Oaks Elementary School
(04:41):
as a fifth grade teacher, nothaving kids at that time, wasn't
married or anything, and justnow responsible for these 25
kids, which was crazy andintimidating, but I survived and
the rest is history.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
25 years ago.
25 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
25 years ago.
Yep.
25 years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
Oh my goodness, what an origin story.
So let's let's fast forward thetape a little bit.
You kind of scared me a littlebit saying Marcus from
Boomerang, because I I Icompletely didn't even
completely forgot what hisprofession was.
I was thinking about the playertype, right?
So that made me a little bit.
(05:22):
Right.
That all of that part.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
He was a marketing executive.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Right.
Right.
So 25 years later, then youserved in a variety of
educational administration rolesafter sort of setting, starting
out in the classroom.
(05:47):
And then you end up getting acall from Shaker Heights City
School District, which is in theCleveland, Ohio area, which is
my hometown.
And you made history.
Right?
Let's let's let's spend a littletime talking about the history
that you made because or ashumble as you want to kind of
(06:08):
talk about these beginnings,it's pretty story.
So for those folks who may notknow, um, Shaker Heights, Ohio
is a first-ranked uh suburb.
It really it borders the city ofCleveland.
It's a small, it neighbors thecity of Cleveland, small, very
diverse community neighboringthe city of Cleveland, and has
(06:30):
its own distinctive, uniquehistory of integration.
And at 35 years old, you becametheir first black
superintendent, right?
And as I said earlier, we're wewere spending season two of this
(06:52):
podcast talking aboutdisruption, and you know, Shaker
Heights has been written about alot by a lot of people over the
course of Shaker's history,particularly as it relates to
the education arena, right?
So people write a lot aboutShaker Heights and thinking
about the educational outcomes.
I studied about Shaker Heightseven as a doctoral student and
(07:16):
thinking about educationaloutcomes.
There is a journalist by thename of Laura Mechler who wrote
a couple years ago a book calledDream Town, where she talks, she
tells the story of racial equityin Shaker.
And you actually have a chapterin that book.
We're not gonna get into a lotabout what she writes in Shaker,
(07:37):
uh writes about you in thatbook.
I want you to tell the storyabout what it meant for you to
make history in Shaker as asuperintendent.
What did that mean for you towalk into Shaker Heights as a
35-year-old first blacksuperintendent in that school
district?
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yes, first off, I I want to just thank Shaker
Heights for the opportunity,right?
For believing in me, becausethat the board took a
significant risk in hiring me.
You know, tell me more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (08:10):
Why was that risky?
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Well, because I was coming after Mark Freeman, who
was there for 25 years as asuperintendent, right?
He was seasoned, he was Jewish,he was in the community, he was
a teacher in that community, sowell, well known, well
respected.
And you have this young,ambitious black man coming in,
(08:34):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
And not from the community, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
And not from the community from the outside, not
even from you know, I'm fromVirginia.
Um my mom is from Dayton, Ohio,though.
And my my aunt and uncle, theylive in Cleveland Heights.
So I have been to the areabefore, but I had never thought
that I would be thesuperintendent of Shaker
Heights.
I mean, I read about Shaker inmy grad program.
(08:57):
So when I got the call to becomesuperintendent, I I literally I
was so honored for the call.
And I knew that being the firstblack superintendent, I was
going to be unapologetic and Iwas gonna have to go in and to
do what I felt I was called todo.
(09:19):
And that was to disrupt, thatwas to make sure that our black
families in Shaker Heights had avoice, had a seat at the table,
and that their needs were gonnabe met.
I always say I just did aninterview recently about Shaker,
and I had shared with them thatShaker was one of the best jobs
that I've had, but also one ofthe most challenging jobs that I
(09:42):
had because I grew up as aleader with Shaker.
You know, I came in to Shaker,the sky's the limit, right?
Which I still have thatphilosophy right now, the sky's
the limit.
Like I think I can do all thingsthrough Christ that strengthens
me, right?
But I came in and I didn't havea lot of lead executive
(10:03):
leadership experience, right?
So I wasn't quite a strategicthinker when I started at
Shaker.
I was a strategic plannerbecause I was specialized in
that in my doctoral program, butI wasn't a strategic thinker
yet.
And when I got there and Istarted making decisions around
our black families and goinginto the community and saying,
(10:26):
you know, I need certain peopleto be at this table that were
never at the table before, Ididn't expect to get some of the
pushback that I received.
Because I felt like you allhired you.
I I was honest as to who I wasin my interview.
I told you what I believed inand you all hired me.
So why are people now upset thatI'm doing what I said I was
(10:48):
gonna do?
Like I told you what was gonnahappen, you know?
But I was a little taken back bythat.
And it it caused me to reallyget tougher skin, right?
I think just being black inAmerica prepares you for a lot
more than we believe as AfricanAmericans.
So I think my life prepared mefor Shaker, but going through
(11:10):
some of the opposition reallychallenged, challenged me.
And that is when I begin to usethe acronym VIP.
Not very important people, butvision, integrity, and passion.
Shaker pushed me to have vision.
It pushed me to stay true to myintegrity, it pushed me to
continue to have the passion soI can come back and do the work,
(11:33):
even when it's not fun andexciting and rewarding, right?
That you're still gonna dowhat's right.
And I commend them for that.
I also thank Shaker for, yougotta think, when I started
Shaker Heights, our kids werethree and eight, which they're
now 15 and 20, right?
Oh, it's crazy.
Our daughters now, she's ajunior in college, our son's a
(11:55):
junior in high school.
But coming to Shaker with ayoung family, I still remember
my wife saying, because at thetime she had she and her hair
was natural, right?
She had she just cut her hair,she got rid of her perm, and
she's like, I'll do it now.
She's like, Well, do I need topress, do I need to blow out my
hair?
You know what I was like.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Your wife making questioning what she should do
with her hair.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
My wife, what should she do with her hair?
I remember we're having thisconversation, like, should I
blow my hair out?
Should I look like the firstlady?
Like, should I put on a dress?
You know, like so going throughall this, and I said, you know
what, Cheryl, just be you.
Be, well, you know what you seeis what you get, right?
We don't need to change who weare going to the community.
And she came there with hernatural hair and our daughter's
(12:42):
natural hair.
You know, my wife still blowsher hair.
They both my wife and daughter,they blow their hair out
sometimes.
But um, it came with theirnatural hair, and we came in and
we said, we're gonna beauthentically black, and we're
going to remain who we are andjoin our black church, which we
didn't go to the Catholic churchto visit, but I knew I wasn't
joining the Catholic Church.
(13:03):
I went to the synagogue tovisit, so I wouldn't join the
synagogue, but we joined OliveInstitutional Baptist Church,
which Pastor Coven is still myforever pastor.
But we we really embraced and wewere in Jack and Jill there.
So we embraced our black cultureand remained ourselves.
One final thing I do want tosay, other than the accolades we
(13:23):
have from Shaker, because Laura,when she wrote her book, she I
almost didn't talk to Laura towrite my chapter of the book
because she did an article aboutme when I first came to
Alexandria that was very, I feltdisrespectful and untrue.
Uh, and I called her out onthat.
(13:43):
And I told myself, I ain't nevertalking to that woman again.
You know, like, and then whenshe calls me about this book
she's writing, I'm like, I Itold my executive assistant,
absolutely not, hang up on her.
I ain't talking to her, right?
So um she calls back and shesays, you know, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna write this chapter,whether you talk to me or not.
(14:04):
And I and I thought about thatfor a minute.
I said, okay, so let me let meat least give her the benefit of
the doubt and let me just behonest with her before we have
the interview.
And I told her straight up, Ididn't like the way you wrote
that article about me.
And I did not appreciate it, andI think it was very
disrespectful and it was false.
So if you're gonna write thischapter, you need to let me
(14:27):
speak my truth.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
I went on a whole nother tangent because I was
thinking about it.
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
This is this is actually the reason why I
brought the brought in LauraMeckler's book.
And I I mean, I know that it wasvery popular, and I think that
it was received in a a lot ofdifferent ways.
I joined Shaker in 2020 duringthe height of the pandemic, and
really I think all the thingsthat you mentioned about your
(14:55):
work at Shaker and thechallenges that you experience
at Shaker resonate with me in alot of ways because I joined
Shaker in 2020, really basedupon a lot of the work, really
the seeds that were plantedduring the time that you were
the superintendent, right?
The work around creating, reallymaking educational equity being
(15:18):
at the forefront of the work atShaker.
And when I walked into the roleof Shaker's first executive
director of diversity, equity,and inclusion, my work was so
important and really I I won'tsay easy, but when by the time I
got there, people were like,Let's get to work because of a
(15:41):
lot of the seeds and a lot ofthe work that had been done
during the time that you werethere, the equity task force,
all the things that had that youhad put into action.
By the time I got there in 2020,people were like, let's get to
work because there was so muchthat had already been done as a
result of the work that you haddone and the work that David
(16:01):
David Glasner had put into workby the time that I was there.
P.S.
Every time that Laura Meckler uhrequested an interview from me,
I turned her down.
Nah, I'm not interested in beingin the work.
But I do think it's fair.
One thing I will say about yourparticular chapter, I could
definitely tell that it was verymuch balanced given what was
(16:23):
written.
And I really appreciated the thelevel of aut authenticity that
was written about yourexperience that was there.
I think, you know, what you justmentioned, walking into that
role as the first and theyoungest superintendent of color
in Shaker in such a storiedfashion, given the history,
(16:46):
given the distinctiveness of thedistrict, of course, was going
to be challenging.
And even thinking about youright, Shaker is the national
merit finalist, Shaker is thestudent who struggles to
graduate in five years, right?
So the expectations were very,very high.
And thinking about all thechallenges that you faced,
(17:08):
definitely not surprising.
But in thinking about the themeof disruption, Mark Joseph, who
is a faculty member at CaseWestern Reserve and one of the
folks who really rallied to getyou there wrote about your being
the superintendent at Shaker,said quote, we got a big
(17:28):
disruption to the status quo.
It kind of shook us up and willnever be the same in a good way.
So that's really important tothink about the legacy that you
left at Shaker, because then youtake that, and as you we talked
about your story, you leftShaker, right?
And so, like LeBron, right, whocame back to Cleveland, right?
(17:51):
Went back to your hometown ofAlexandria to become the
superintendent.
You do that.
What was your legacy inAlexandria being the
superintendent there?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
You know, um, it was a tough decision actually for me
to apply to Alexandria becauseat the time people didn't know
this, but I was being recruitedto go to some other districts
from Shaker.
And I had just signed anothercontract to say I'm gonna stay.
So then Alexandria opened up andI applied to the Alexandria job
(18:25):
the last day and was open.
Because I knew I said, if Isubmit my application, I think
I'm gonna get the job.
I really believe I'm gonna getthis job if I submit this.
So do I really want to do this?
I my mom, we had moved my mom toShaker Heights to help us out
with the kids.
You know, like we loved our, wehad our community, we loved our
(18:47):
home.
We'll never get a house like wehad at Shaker again, a historic
1920, what it, 1928 orsomething.
It was a beautiful historicaltutor style home.
And I'm like, am I gonna leaveall this?
Because I'm I'm good.
I feel great.
I've we're making progress, I'mmaking good money, I love the
community, but there's no placelike home.
(19:08):
And one thing that I realizedcoming back to Alexandria was
that, yes, people said the goatwas coming back home and all
these types of things, but thatchallenges came with that too.
What I've realized in Alexandriawas that, um, because I was far
removed from Alexandria after Igraduated from high school,
(19:29):
because my mom moved toMaryland.
So I would go back to visitFriends, but I didn't live there
anymore until I was a directorthere many years later.
But what I realized inAlexandria was that we had a lot
of liberal races in a city wherethe first Africans arrived in
this country and were dispersedall over America.
(19:49):
And because of the heart ofracism that resonated in the
city of Alexandria, it was inthe heart of all the work that I
was hired to do.
I was the second blacksuperintendent in Alexandria.
Alvin Crawley was the firstblack superintendent who was
right before me.
So we were back to back, whichpeople you don't typically see a
(20:11):
black hire, another black personget hired after black person.
It's rare, right?
But um the interim person was awhite woman, Lois Berlin.
She was the uh interim before Icame in, but she didn't want the
job.
She was just there until theyhired a new superintendent.
And God rests, you know, Dr.
Crawley's soul, because hepassed away a couple of years
ago.
But he paved the way, really,for me, because he was taking a
(20:37):
very strong stance on equity.
He was talking about it, and itwas kind of like how you said I
I was getting things preparedfor when you got to Shaker.
People were saying, let's do.
It was similar when I got toAlexandria, like, okay, well,
now let's do.
And I had thought going toAlexandria because it was such a
(20:58):
liberal community in my hometownthat it would be easier than
Shaker.
And it actually was morechallenging than Shaker.
So Alexandria was harder for methan Shaker Heights.
And then you have to add 2020with the pandemic, and uh, you
know, you got to think of, youknow, our whole racial reckoning
(21:21):
in America happening.
You have to think of the factthat when I became
superintendent in Alexandria,President Trump, the first
round, was become president ofthe United States, which is
right across the water.
And Betsy DeVos was, you know,our U.S.
Secretary of Education.
So because we're we were soclose to the nation's capital, I
(21:42):
was in the heart of all of thepolitics.
And that was just an additionallayer that Shaker didn't have.
Shaker, I mean, they hadpolitics, but it wasn't DC
politics, right?
It was just a little different.
So I had some challenges, but mylegacy was that we were
unapologetic.
Like, I mean, in Alexandria,because I knew that Alexandria
(22:04):
was going to be the lastsuperintendency.
I knew that going in when I gothired, I told them I wasn't
gonna go anywhere else becausethere's no place like home.
Like, who's gonna top myhometown?
It wasn't my goal to have acareer uh and to retire as a
superintendent.
I became a superintendent 35.
I knew I wasn't gonna do it for30 years.
That just wasn't gonna be mything.
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
So you to so you knew going in that two things
that this was gonna be it foryou, and that this wasn't
necessarily going to be a longtenure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Not 30 years.
Now I didn't think it was gonnabe five.
unknown (22:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:42):
Um, and I was committed to 10.
I was I almost did 10, but Ibelieve what happened for me was
if the pandemic didn't occur, Iprobably still would be
finishing my contract inAlexandria.
I was exhausted.
Like the pandemic, it caused somuch anxiety for me when we were
(23:02):
gone having to make medicaldecisions.
Like I'm not a medical doctor,I'm an education doctor, right?
So it's just a little differentwhen you you got people's lives
at stake and I'm making thefinal decision.
That was a lot of stress for me.
I had to see, which I still seemy therapist even now from that.
I was starting to have anxietyattacks, which I never had in my
(23:22):
life until then, that nobodyknew I had to still show up
every day and be the leader andbe calm and be, you know, um
firm and confident in what I'msaying.
But then at behind closed doors,I was broken and tired and
exhausted and afraid.
But I knew that I was gonna needto get everybody back into our
(23:45):
schools and get us on the rightpath before I could throw in the
top.
So I committed to doing that fortwo additional years, even
though I was really done in2020.
I stayed at 2022.
And I think, you know, throughthat time, we changed to school
names.
We built a new um campus of thehigh school.
(24:06):
We started a new equity plan,the first time in the state of
Virginia to have a strategicplan that's focused on equity,
right?
Um, and all of this washappening when we had just hired
a new governor who was one ofPresident Trump's friends in the
state of Virginia who prettymuch banned equity and all of
(24:27):
the equity work that we had doneas a state was deleted or
erased.
That was a huge uphill battlethat, you know, I was I was
fighting here.
But I I want to believe, and Istill believe, because I still
I'm still close to folks inAlexandria because that's my
hometown.
They are still doing the work.
Right.
And we were able to have thehighest graduation rate in 20
(24:49):
years under my leadership.
We were able to have all of ourschools accredited for the first
time in 25 years of ourleadership in Alexandria.
So I knew when I informed theboard that I was going to be
resigning from my position in2022, I knew that we had made it
to heights that they had nevermade it before.
(25:10):
And it was hard for them to be,I mean, of course, people don't
want to go, but it's hard to beupset because I did take us to
another level.
I didn't leave it the way Iwalked in.
And same as Shaker, right?
No matter what folks will say,if you go look at the data, the
data will show you that progresswas made.
Um, and even, you know, when uhI think Laura said this a couple
of times, you know, well, thethe process changed for the
(25:33):
state.
You came in as an F and you leftas a B, and that's not a true
statement.
And I said, well, if every, ifif that's not a true statement,
every school system in Ohio thathad an F would have been a B
when I left.
If that wasn't a true statement.
And every school district wasnot.
Some were still F's.
So it wasn't the system thatgave us a B, right?
(25:55):
It was the work that we didthere.
And it was us really making surethat students, particularly our
black and brown students, thatthey mattered and that they had
the access and that we alsobelieved in them.
One thing that I brought toShaker and Alexandria was a very
strong belief system.
(26:15):
One thing for me, I mean, I'm aperson that I love hard, right?
So it's good for my wife, right?
Because like I mean when I makea commitment, it's like I'm
committed.
So 23 years, it's hard to saymerit, but I'm committed.
So I'm but I I love hard.
I'm that same way when it comesto the passion in schools and
(26:39):
for our young people, especiallyour black and brown people.
I'm so passionate that it's byany means necessary.
You will not ruin their lives,you will not put systems in
place that prevent them fromachieving whatever goal they set
for themselves.
You will not tell them that theycan't.
It would always be if you wantto do something, we're gonna
(26:59):
help you get there, right?
And that was the mentality thatI carried in Shaker and
Alexandria.
And I think for both, that'sprobably the legacy I hope they
will remember about me.
And that I also did it with asmile.
I never came in having to, youknow, be like an aggressive type
person, right?
(27:20):
Now I can be stern and I cantell you what I want and what I
need at a particular time, butI'm not someone who tries to
make fear to get you to do whatI want.
I gotta put fear in you to dosomething, and there's no point
you even working here.
So like I I will help get yourway on out by just turning up
the heat in regards to holdingyou accountable, not in being
(27:41):
mean to you, just telling youthis is what's expected.
And if you can't live up to it,then you know, take your take
yourself somewhere else.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Well, the legacy continues, right?
Just now in a different way.
So you decided to transitionfrom being a superintendent at
Alexandria because there wasjust a lot happening and quite
(28:09):
frankly, you were burnt out.
Makes sense.
But like all good leaders, youfound a path as a professor.
And really, what's reallyinteresting to me is thinking
about shifting the pathway andsort of thinking about improving
or bridging that achievementgap, right?
(28:31):
So at the earlier part of yourcareer as an educator and then
as an administrator, you know,you were improving educational
outcomes, bridging thatachievement gap as an
administrator, superintendent,but now you're doing that by
continuing to complete thepipeline, if you will, by
(28:55):
addressing womensuperintendents.
So, um, as a current facultymember at Howard University,
your research right now looks atthe experiences of black women
superintendents.
Can you walk us through thatresearch and why that is such an
(29:16):
important piece and addressingboth the pipeline issue, but
also more importantly, lookingat uh bridging, continuing to
abridge educational outcomes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
So, right before I go into that, can I just add one
piece?
Please.
Because there's one connectorthat we missed out.
So I was tired, right?
And I was exhausted.
And I was also compelled to domore.
So when I left thesuperintendency in Alexandria, I
(29:49):
had written a book, Getting intoGood Trouble at School, which is
a guide to building an antiracist school system.
And I felt that this country atthat particular time was.
At this racial crossroads, andme being pigeonholed in one
district is not allowing me totruly be my authentic self.
(30:09):
And that was why I was so tired.
So I knew that I'm not going tobe able to speak openly and
honestly without all of theseconsequences and everything
being referred back to, youknow, Dr.
Hutchings is just doing this forhis own reputation and to build
his own brand and image, right?
I got tired of hearing that somuch versus why can't it be that
(30:32):
this is a black man who istrying to advocate for black
children?
Why does it have to be about me?
Right.
I wrote my book for people toserve the needs of black and
brown children across America.
And then I said, I want to takeit even further and start my own
business, which I startedRevolutionary Ed, which focused
on dismantling systemic racismin public education across
(30:53):
America, which now I have twobusinesses, Revolutionary Ed and
Hutchinson Associates, whichdoes executive coaching and
strategic planning and schoolboard relations.
Right.
So I'm making sure that we arecreating that foundation.
So that led to if I am settingthis foundation for school
districts across the country, Ineed to make sure I'm putting my
(31:16):
time, my energy, my effortswhere my mouth is as well.
So I need to help produce thenext superintendents of America
so that they have thatfoundation and that they're able
to withstand what this world isbringing.
So I knew that I'm stillstanding, right?
(31:37):
I knew that I've done someradical things.
I knew that I've beenrevolutionary.
I knew that I've been able toovercome adversity.
And I still have life.
I still feel I'm in good health,right?
I'm still a believer.
I'm still excited about thiswork, right?
In spite of all of those things.
Let me make sure that this nextgeneration has that kind of
(31:59):
grounding so that they can toostand tall and not be pushed
down or beaten.
And that led me to HowardUniversity, which to me is the
Mecca.
That is the epitome of wherewe're going to produce black
leaders who, one, canunapologetically be black, two,
(32:21):
will have the ability to be thescholar practitioner to
dismantle the systemic racism inpublic education or in
education, just in generalacross America.
And that was why I wanted to doresearch on black
superintendents.
And when I decided that that wasgoing to be my research focus,
(32:41):
black superintendents, becauseI'm a black superintendent and I
had to overcome all the things Ijust shared, a theme came out of
that work.
And the theme was black womenand intersectionality and the
challenges that they have.
And that led me to say, okay,when this is the one remark that
I heard repeatedly that stuckwith me and is still driving me
(33:05):
to do this research in regardsto black women's
superintendents.
Black women's superintendentstold me that they felt black men
did not support them throughouttheir tenure.
Black women's superintendentstold me some of their biggest
advocates were white men.
I was shocked to hear that.
I've been a black feminist mywhole life.
I guess I'm raised by a blackwoman.
(33:26):
I got a black wife, you know, Igot black daughters.
So I have always been anadvocate for black women.
I have always been an ally, acheerleader, a promoter, you
know.
Black women, I had I hired a lotof black women for my teams.
They never had issues withsalary.
They never, like I always gavethe highest salary out.
(33:47):
Like I had always been in thatspace.
And I, but I was in kind of likemy own bubble.
And I didn't realize that thatwasn't the way black women have
perceived their journey.
And um, because I was so takenback by that, it forced me to
(34:07):
say, okay, well, let me dig alittle deeper and find out what
is going on that is preventingone, black men from valuing our
black women and holding them upand lifting them up.
And two, also even other blackwomen.
Some of the black women saidthat they some of their biggest
nemesis are other black women,which I was like, wow, you know.
(34:31):
Um, so uh, which I heard my wifesay certain things, she's not an
education.
She, you know, she's a businessowner, she owns a CPA firm, so
she's in a business world, butshe said some of the same things
that she found some of her mostchallenges have been with other
black women instead of beinglifted up um by each other.
So this is why I'm doing thisresearch now.
(34:52):
And what I'm finding is thatblack women, as Mark Malcolm X
said this in the 60s, the blackwoman is the most disrespected
person in America.
I believe the black womansuperintendent is the most
disrespected educator inAmerica, but the black woman is
the most educated person inAmerica, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (35:12):
So I'm gonna just not necessarily play in devil's
advocate, but as someone who hassupervised a ton of doc students
and that sort of thing, whatwhat are we what are you hoping
your research is going to helpinform our field of education?
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Ten years from now, this research is going to be the
most widely cited in this areabecause so this research, it's
not about see so I I believe inhaving problem investigators,
right?
So you find all these problems,but I also believe in having
problem solvers.
(35:54):
And I'm hoping that thisresearch will create pipelines
that will allow this nextgeneration of black women to not
have to go over as manyobstacles, right?
So that they we're being we'reputting systems.
This is what I, and this is whywe had our black women
reconvening just a couple ofweeks ago through Howard
University.
Our dean had this vision, and webrought black women
(36:17):
superintendents from all overthe country together to do a
reconvening to talk about questand to talk about the importance
of leadership and howintersectionally causes you to
feel overwhelmed.
These are the types of thingsthat I think my research is
going to bring about.
Supports for black women,networks for black women, how do
(36:37):
board members work with blackwomen's superintendents?
How do black women'ssuperintendents work with each
other?
What do what does a solidnetwork that's going to uplift
black women to be the best theycan possibly be?
What will that look like?
Right.
So that's what I'm hoping thatthis research does.
That it does reveal some of theproblems, but also some of the
(37:01):
greatness and solutions toensure black women can be
successful and will be, so thatthey won't continue to be
scapegoated and hired to dojobs, that they get fired to do
the same job they were hired todo.
They didn't even cause theproblem, but now they're losing
their jobs.
And I have a lot of my blackwomen superintendent sisters who
are in those situations thathave lost their jobs for no
(37:25):
reason.
No reason at all, but becausethey are black women and
misunderstood, but then hiredwhen the sky literally is
falling and there's no way butup.
And they make the most progressand they get fired for the
problem they didn't even cause,which is which is absolutely
(37:45):
nuts to me.
And it happens to black men too,but it's happening to black
women at greater rates.
And less than 2% of oursuperintendents across America
right now are black women.
There was research that I justspoke with one of my colleagues,
and she shared this with me.
She's doing research on blackwomen superintendents across
America.
There are 26 states right nowthat does not have a black woman
(38:08):
as a superintendent.
26 states.
That's more than half that donot have a black woman in the
entire state as asuperintendent.
Across the districts acrosstheir districts.
Across the United States ofAmerica.
That to me is unbelievable.
And when you think about whenyou add black men into the
(38:28):
picture, it's only 3% ofsuperintendents across America
are black.
That's it.
Right?
So this work is going to allowfor this next generation of one
to know that you can do it.
Because I think a lot of folksgoing through these ranks right
now and being in some of theseeducation programs, especially
if you're at other schools, it'snot happening to HBCUs.
(38:50):
It's definitely not happening toHoward.
But I think some people, blackfolks who are in education, they
are being pushed into thinkingthat they can't do certain
things or that things aren'tpossible.
You can't be a or you can't be,you know, a leader of an
organization, or you can't be aprincipal, or right.
(39:12):
So they're being influenced.
And I think sometimes there's afalse narrative that makes them
feel like they can't dosomething.
We need to begin to havepipelines to let young people
before they even get intoeducation know you can, right?
You can be a principal, you canbe a superintendent, you can
lead a school district, right?
(39:32):
And we also need to, aseducators, stop saying, don't go
into education.
Because we we are sometimesdiscrediting our own education
by saying, Don't go intoeducation.
Education is the best field inthe world, it molds any and
everything that this world does.
It's the most powerful job inAmerica, it's the most powerful
job in the world, right?
Like who would want to be aneducator?
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
Has that power of multiplication, right?
And just like that woman whogave you that business card that
you had, and she said, Oh, I gota job for you.
As we close, I always close withthree rapid fire questions.
Something that has made yousmile big this week.
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Our family.
I feel really blessed.
I fan every time I think thisweek, I thought about our
family, just my wife and our twokids.
And we it's full circle becauseour daughter was born here.
We now live in the Richmondarea, right outside of Richmond,
Virginia.
And our daughter, we came herewhen we first got married, we
(40:37):
built our first home here, and20 years later, we're back into
the same area.
Not necessarily in the samecity, but close to the same
area, and it's full circle, andI feel extremely blessed.
That makes me smile.
And I thought about that thisweek.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
And you're going into your 20, 25 years since you
started an education.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yeah, since I started in education.
30 years out of, I just had my30th high school reunion.
Which is great.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
Not me, you.
You told us what you were born.
So I mean you set yourself upfor that one.
Something that keeps you up atnight.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
Something that keeps me up at night.
Wow, this the state of thiscountry.
The state of this country.
Right now, we are we are we'reat a significant crossroads.
But I also it keeps me up atnight, but I also know there's
hope because I stay in tune toour history.
(41:35):
And I think of as AfricanAmericans and as Africans who
were first brought to thiscountry, right?
Unwillingly brought to thiscountry and work for free.
We have overcome so much thatthis too show patterns.
I still have hope because wewe've been in worse situations
than this.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
I I I hear that a lot.
Um and last question as weclose, what is your North Star
in this work?
The guiding principle that keepsmoving you forward?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Well, I mean, it goes back to my VIP acronym,
Vision, Integrity, Passion,right?
I mean, that is probably myNorth Star.
I think if I ever lose one ofthose things, my work is done.
And it's funny because my wife,she is talking about she's
(42:28):
retiring, this semi-retirementwhen she turns 50, right?
Which is next year.
And I don't see that on thehorizons for me.
I see me always doing work, thiskind of work.
I still, I still see me being atHoward as a professor and them
telling, Dr.
Hutchins, you need to retire.
(42:50):
You need to move on, right?
And I can see me still saying, Iwant a young person to come in
and teach the class, but I wantto be an advisor to somebody,
right?
And share my story and sharewhat I've learned from all these
different generations becauseworking with next generation
leaders keeps you in the momentand keeps you present and it
keeps me alive.
(43:10):
So VIP is what's in our NorthStar.
SPEAKER_01 (43:13):
Love it.
Thank you so much, Dr.
Gregory C.
Hutchins Jr., founder and CEO ofRevolutionary Ed Hutchins and
Associates, and author ofGetting Into Good Trouble at
School, a guide to building ananti racist school system.
Thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (43:33):
Thank you.
I'm so proud of you too, Dr.
Waters.
Thank you for me and all thatyou're doing.
I want to give you your flowerswhen we're here.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.