January 18, 2025 • 42 mins
*PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS EPISODE CONTAINS REFERENCES TO SUICIDE. PLEASE SKIP THIS EPISODE IF YOU FIND THIS TOPIC TRIGGERING OR UPSETTING*
Mel Watkins, a psychotherapist and founder of Mel Watkins Therapy, shares her deeply personal journey to sobriety, elucidating the powerful links between alcohol, love addiction, and emotional health. Through candid reflections, Mel provides valuable insights on how overcoming dependency reveals deeper issues pertinent to relationships and self-worth.
This episode offers an intimate glimpse into her world, from the chaos of her late twenties to the pandemic that eventually became a catalyst for transformative change. Mel's story is not just about overcoming addiction, but about finding clarity and relief from anxiety, depression and insecure relationships in the sober moments. Her reflections reveal the societal pressures in her hometown of Hobart, Australia, where alcohol often played a central role in seeking acceptance and belonging.
Mel and Bella take a closer look at the relationship between love, addiction, and sobriety. We engage in a heartfelt discussion about the profound effects of alcohol on personal relationships and self-awareness. By addressing personal challenges and fostering authentic connections, we celebrate the life-changing impact of sobriety.
LEARM MORE ABOUT MEL
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/melwatkinstherapy/
Web: https://www.melwatkinstherapy.com/
MEG
Web: https://www.meganwebb.com.au/
Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/meganwebbcoaching/
Unwined Bookclub: https://www.alcoholfreedom.com.au/unwinedbookclub
ConnectAF group coaching: https://www.elizaparkinson.com/groupcoaching
BELLA
Web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
Insta: @alcoholcounsellorisabella
Bi-Yearly 6-Week Small Group Challenges: Learn more: https://www.isabellaferguson.com.au/feb-2025-challenge
Free Do I Have A Drinking Problem 3 x Video Series: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/JTFFgjJL/checkout
Free HOW DO I STOP DRINKING SO MUCH Masterclass: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/7fvkb3FF/checkout
Online Alcohol Self-Paced Course: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/fDzcyvWL/checkout...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, today I am very excited to welcome Mel Watkins
to the Not Drinking Todaypodcast.
Mel is a psychotherapist andfounder of her own practice, mel
Watkins Therapy.
It's always great to meetpeople that you interact with
and follow on Instagram, and Melis one of those people.
(00:23):
I believe it's at NotMeTheBoos.
A huge welcome, mel.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hi, thank you.
Like you said, I've beenfollowing you guys for ages, so
I'm so happy I get to finally beon your podcast.
So thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I love these moments Now, these moments Now.
We always kind of launch off ina very typical format what's
your story around alcohol andhow did you get sober?
But I might just kick off justto ask the question how long
have you been alcohol free?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So this question I haven't touched alcohol for, I
think, over three years nowAmazing.
But this is where I say my butright.
I started my sobriety journeywhen I was about 28,.
Took it seriously in COVID timebecause there was a lot of
(01:20):
times where I was just like I'venever thought I'd be sober.
I just thought I'd just quitalcohol for a bit and I'll try
and do a hundred days and I'llnever make it to a hundred days.
But I really started taking itseriously in COVID.
So then I was like I'm notdrinking.
I mapped out my whole plan ofwhat I wanted in my life.
I was at this very transitionalperiod.
I was in sales and events and Ijust wasn't happy anymore.
(01:41):
And of course, when you're nothappy, that is when you are
getting triggered the most.
So it was like, if I keep goingthis way, I'm going to die.
So I decided, okay, I'm goingto be sober.
And I made it to a year.
And that's when I had it's NotMe's Booze.
I'd started it.
I was tracking my journey.
Actually, no, I lie, I startedit when I wasn't sober because I
(02:03):
was just writing about myexperience with alcohol.
But then I, yeah, did aone-year sober and loved it and
then got super cocky and waslike I'm never going to drink
again and I drank again, yeah.
So I slipped up a couple oftimes and then I got sober and
(02:24):
stayed sober.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah.
So for listeners out there, melis 35, which is gosh.
What a lovely opportunity tolive just such a lovely chunk of
your life, forward-facing, withall that you've learnt, and,
can I also say, just to have gotthrough COVID taking the
(02:48):
healthy path rather than doingwhat many of us out there did,
which was to kind of spark awhole issue with alcohol in
those confined spaces alone.
You know, I know our stats wentup and up, but, mel gosh, that
statement, if I keep going onthis path I'm going to die.
(03:12):
So it sounded like things gotreally bad.
How bad did it get for you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So hard when you think about how bad things get
for you, because you just get soused to living in chaos.
And even, you know, at 27, Ihad a breakdown, like a mental
breakdown.
I was doing things that Ishouldn't have been doing.
I was drinking every day, doingcoke, doing whatever drug
anyone gave me really what wasavailable and yet that wasn't
(03:42):
enough to get sober.
You know, that was my Nana died, who I grew up with, like there
was so much shit going on, mypartner and I had broken up and
I was depressed.
I wanted to kill myself, likeit was such a, you know,
horrific time, but I stilldidn't think alcohol and drugs
were the problem.
And it wasn't until COVID, andagain, it was like this
(04:05):
depression that I was alwaysfeeling and this anxiety, and
that was my normal, though, butI think because I'd done a few
stints of sobriety and I waslike and you know, when I say
stints a month or maybe twomonths sometimes but I knew that
, wait, there is something inthis yeah and I like, because in
(04:25):
those times when I would gosober, I suddenly didn't have
this anxiety and this depression.
That was my normal and I wasn'tgoing out and making stupid
decisions.
I wasn't getting with people Ishouldn't be getting with, like
I wasn't having like theseromantic crushes on people that
weren't even my type.
Everything was just normal.
(04:46):
Like everything seemed so calmand I was like there's got to be
something in that.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Because what's the choice?
I just get so depressed andthen I do kill myself.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh yeah, sounds like things got really well complex
there for you at that age inyour life when there's just so
much going on, and thank God forthat.
You know that inner mentor,that inner voice that, or the
(05:18):
inner manager, is what I'm sortof talking about or describing
it often now that kept youguiding you back to just the
kernel of the idea that maybethis is something to do with
alcohol and the drugs, and notto say that alcohol and drugs
contributed to all of it.
(05:39):
But as for all of us, it'soften the case that if you
remove that big layer, only thencan you start to look a bit
deeper.
Mel, I guess there's so muchthere to go on.
But if you were to look backnow, why do you think you did
get into a problematicrelationship with alcohol and
(06:03):
cocaine?
What was going on for you andyour alcohol story, your
background there?
That really were the majorcontributors to it?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, I think you know, growing up in Hobart small
town, I mean, alcohol iseverywhere in Australia, right,
but in a small town there's notmuch else to do but drink.
And also small town everyoneknows everything about you.
So there is this big pool tojust belong and fit in and be
the cool person, be part of thepopular group and always seeking
(06:35):
that validation which is anormal.
It's a normal emotion for a lotof us, but I think for me it
was like when I drank, I didn'thave to worry about being
accepted, because I was acceptedbecause everyone else is
drinking.
You know that classic storyyour friends are drinking,
you're drinking and now suddenlyyou're cool and funny and the
life of the party.
I could.
(06:56):
I was very.
I always searched forrelationships, so it also gave
me those.
It turned off my inhibition soI could seek out relationships
that made me feel validated andthat was what alcohol gave me.
I think it gave me theopportunity to seek out people
that made me feel important andthat just carried on.
(07:18):
And I think, as you get older,I didn't have parents that were
drinkers like my grandma sorry,like she wasn't a drinker things
.
I didn't have parents that weredrinkers like my grandma sorry
like she wasn't a drinker.
So I never had alcohol in thehouse.
But I very quickly realized ifI drank.
I could get the attention andlove that I wanted and that just
followed on and got worse themore I was working in industry,
where when I you know, when Igot in my 20s, I worked in
(07:40):
events and hospitality andyou're in an industry where you
know if you drink you're goingto make sales, you're going to
have people like you more,you're going to be a life of the
party.
People want to have a good timewith you.
So it just became that tool forme.
That was my tool for all mysuccess in life, really Success
(08:01):
what I thought was success,that's right.
Um, success what I thought wassuccess, that's right, uh.
So yeah, that's kind of whereit all started and it was a real
.
It was escape as well.
I suppose you know when you dostruggle dealing with hard
emotions.
I think we're from a generationwhere when you're younger you
you're not validated in anyemotions that you feel, so
(08:22):
you're just told to just go downwith it.
So alcohol helped with that aswell.
If I was depressed, just drinkand I'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah.
It sounds as though then thatbecame the self-fulfilling story
that alcohol meant love,attention, it meant success at
work.
Alcohol meant love, attention,it meant success at work.
And if you haven't had afoundation, I guess, of really
(08:56):
feeling like all of those thingscan be internally satisfied,
like they've got to come fromour internal self, then it's
pretty alluring, isn't it?
Then it's pretty alluring,isn't it?
It suddenly, yeah, becomes thisanchor that you need in
everyday life.
When you started thinking youknow, maybe I need to have some
(09:16):
alcohol-free time under my belt,what did you do?
How did you start investigatingthat?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
to start investigating that.
I needed to relate it tosomething that was important to
me.
So I suppose I didn't come init thinking I need to quit
alcohol.
I came in it and this wasn't.
I wasn't even consciously awarethat alcohol was a problem, but
I really wanted to start abusiness and I really wanted to
be my fittest, be really fit andfeel really good about myself.
So there was these things thatI really wanted in my life and I
, you know, I was working thisjob where I was going out all
(09:54):
the time and waking up, feelinglike shit and not going to the
gym and not doing anything newin my life.
It's okay to just do the normalthings I know how to do, but I
could never achieve the goalsthat I wanted to achieve or even
figure out a business idearight, like I was just always so
stuck.
And even my relationship nowhe's my husband, but I was in a
(10:15):
relationship with him and Ididn't know what I wanted, like
he'd always say to me, likesometimes he'd say I just don't
know when you're going to leavebecause I didn't know what I was
, what I wanted.
So I was always confused.
And I think I listened to JamesSchwanwick Am I saying that
right?
Yeah, yeah, podcast.
And he was talking about cause.
I was looking for businessowners and how people started
(10:37):
their business.
And then he talked about hissobriety and I was like, oh,
maybe that's what I need to do.
So it was never.
It never came from my life isso bad, it's alcohol.
It came from.
My life is bad, I need tochange it and this is what I
want in my life.
And then that came to myconscious like, oh, maybe if I
quit alcohol I'll figure outwhat I want.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, and it also sounds though you had that very
strong internal drive that keptquestioning the status quo, kept
questioning how you werefeeling.
What's going on in my life?
There has to be something more.
So it sounds as though there'sthat inner strength, and thank
(11:20):
God for that.
Don't you think that we don'tjust sit there and let life pass
us by?
And that you did it so young?
Where did you get that strengthfrom to be able to buck the
trend so young?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think I got it from .
That's a tough question.
I've never been asked thatbefore.
The strength I think it wasfrom it does come to a point of
being desperate, right?
Yes, fear's a good driver.
Yeah, yeah it was.
I was just sick of it.
I was sick of hating myself andwhen I started writing about it
(11:53):
I could just tell how much Ihated myself.
Yeah, and I was just sick ofthat.
I was like there's got to besomething else.
Even the job that I was in youknow, it's a job I always wanted
to be in, in these events andthis like kind of glamorous
world that people think it isgoing out to events getting
wasted.
But my boss was abusive.
I was always like in trouble,like, yeah, there was always so
(12:16):
much abuse and toxicity and itwas just chaotic.
Yeah, and I was like there mustbe like something else, because
that's not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, how can I?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
keep living like this .
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, looking for a pursuit of something that's more
calmer, more content.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And gosh alcohol certainly adds to the chaos,
doesn't it Fuel to the fire?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
That's the question, because I feel like the strength
was more.
It was just coming out of beingdesperate yeah, Though I will
actually say my ex-boyfrienddied of suicide and that kind of
was maybe a push to stay soberbecause I was like, when
somebody dies from that way, soclose to you, you start to think
(13:07):
, especially when you've hadthose thoughts in the past, and
then you see the effect that ithas on everybody.
I can do that Like I don'tthink that, I want to do that.
I don't think that's my otheroption now.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, I can imagine that very sad, devastating life
event would have fundamentally,profoundly, have impacted just
you.
Would have been asking yourselfall of the questions how do I?
You know all of those big lifequestions would have come home
(13:39):
to roost during that time.
Yeah, did you have any rolemodels out there that were sort
of leading the way alcohol-free,or were you one of the first?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, I read Naked Mind, yeah, yeah yeah.
That was the first quit alcoholbook I read and obviously that
made a huge impact in my life.
So I followed Annie, listenedto her podcast, still listen to
her podcast.
So, yeah, that helped a lotbecause that was the only thing
really out there at that time,that's right.
(14:13):
But what about in yourfriendship circle?
Oh no, love my friends, but no,we were all big drinkers.
I was the biggest drinker, butno one, even my friends.
Now I don't really have a lotof sober friends, yeah, yeah,
(14:33):
yeah, nobody really.
That was a role model.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah.
So that takes a lot of couragein itself to go out there and be
one of the first, be one of thetrailblazers in your social
circle.
And you mentioned a yearalcohol-free.
How did you do it?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I think having my Instagram keeping me accountable
and sharing my journey, andthen trying to meet sober people
as well, like I really embracedsobriety.
I was willing to learn anything.
I was also studying counselling, so I had an idea of what
direction I wanted to go withthis.
I was a really big motivator,so I was willing to like read
(15:10):
and listen to podcasts andunderstand why I was drinking,
where that was coming from, andthen like practice the skills
that I'm learning.
You have to embrace yourself inthis journey, otherwise, if you
do it half-assed, you won't get.
You just don't get there.
You will get there, but it willtake time and I didn't have
(15:31):
time.
I'm not going to waste moreyears doing this same shit over
and over again, so I was verydetermined to get this right.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, and you're right, it doesn't happen
overnight, does it?
It is small shifts withconsistent effort, and you
slowly plot away just to kind ofbring about that change you
mentioned.
You read Annie Grace.
Uh, you were listening topodcasts and then, I guess, just
(16:04):
putting it into practice Was itjust willpower?
Just again and again, and again, until you started to feel the
gains, and I guess thatmotivated you.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, and a lot of things like, I suppose, writing
a lot about it.
I always separated alcohol frommyself, so I wrote a lot of
letters on my blog saying dearalcohol, why am I feeling like
this again?
And I've even got the blogwhere I was like I'm going to
moderate, dear alcohol, I don'tthink I have a problem with you,
I'm going to moderate and I'veyou know, the other week I drank
mindfully, I didn't even get ahangover and I'm like got this
(16:34):
and then, like a week later oror I think maybe even two weeks
later, I'm like, hey, alcohol,you fucked me over again.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, yeah, oh God, I love that method of detaching
alcohol and what it does to you,who you become when you drink
it from your core self.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I think as well, when you're just going back to you
know it would have been hard foryou to go out and do this while
your friends were stilldrinking stuff.
Yeah, I think as well, whenyou're just going back to you
know it would have been hard foryou to go out and do this while
your friends were stilldrinking and stuff.
Yeah, I had done a lot of shitthings to my friends.
So they were kind of like,thank fuck, yeah right, she's
growing up or she's doingsomething about it.
And they didn't think it wasthe alcohol.
They just thought I was likejust a chaotic person who just
(17:20):
could never be present or have aproper conversation, or like
they.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So they were glad that I was just trying to do
something to start changing mybehaviors yes, so a radical
change, because it does feellike a radical change to
suddenly they know alcohol, tonot be that version of yourself
when you're out partying, wasreally accepted by your friends.
I love it.
Oh, that is fantastic.
(17:47):
Well, you know, one of thespecialties that you focus on
which I'd love to hear moreabout and your thoughts on, is
the connection between love,addiction, infidelity and
alcohol.
Yeah, what are your thoughts onhow they all fit together?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Oh, I find this so fascinating, absolutely
fascinating.
So thanks for asking thisquestion, because the
correlation between these thingsis that it's so strong, yet
people don't want to talk aboutit and people ignore it.
(18:30):
Because, again, we are livingin a society where it not only
makes a fantasy for alcohol, italso makes a fantasy for love.
I mean, look at the notebook.
Yeah, you know the love wecan't have, the love we would
sacrifice ourselves for, thelove.
That is so traumatizing thatwe'll never get over it.
And the biggest thing is likethis isn't what love is.
(18:55):
That's not what love should belike.
It shouldn't make you feelanxious.
It shouldn't make you feel likeyou can't live without it, and
that's what we are craving.
It shouldn't make you feel likeyou can't live without it, and
that's what we are craving andthat's what we want.
And if we don't have it, andwhen something feels secure,
then we're like oh, I think thisis working out yeah, um, why do
you think sabotage it?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
we do, and what's your, I guess, ideas around why
people, some people, do that?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
so we have love addiction and we have love
avoidance.
Okay, so love addiction itcomes from.
We're looking at your childhoodand some people can have a bit
of both.
So again, people complex so whenyour child and your caregiver
has abandoned you or makes youfeel irrelevant, or maybe you
(19:45):
know there's been some neglector even abuse you can feel like
you're abandoned, you're notreceiving that love or that
secure attachment.
And the problem is there, thosecaregivers sometimes, when they
abandon you, they also thengive you some breadcrumbs to
come back to.
So there might be a day where,even though they treat you like
crap, there might be a day wherethey're like oh, you're so
(20:07):
special, let's go for an icecream.
And you hold on to that.
You're like they're amazing,they've just given you this and
that's what you hold on to.
And then, as you grow older,you're looking for that person.
And it's interesting becausefor heterosexuals mostly, you
know, if you have love addictionand it's the say, it's the mum
(20:28):
that has abandoned you, then youwill look for love addiction in
a woman which is what mostlikely happens.
Okay, so it's normally theperson who has abandoned you is
the one sorry.
Is that you will look for thatlove addiction with.
So love addiction doesn't justhappen with a loved one, it can
happen with like, a friend or afamily member.
(20:51):
I understand it can happen with,like a person that you're in
love with, a person that you'reromantically involved with Got
you, that makes sense.
Romantically involved with Gotyou that makes sense.
Love avoidance is when you areenmeshed with your caregiver.
So your caregiver is relying onyou for things as a child, the
parent is relying on the childand you're kind of relying on
(21:14):
each other, but more thecaregiver.
You're kind of enmeshed intogether.
There is no parent and child.
And then as you get older, whatyou're looking for in
relationships you're not lookingfor that love, equal love.
You're looking for a personthat needs you.
You, they need you.
(21:36):
That's what you're looking forin love and what does that
attract?
So a love avoidance person isgoing to attract a love addict.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, all of that does make sense.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so that's what you'llfind.
A lot of the time A love addictwill be with a love avoidance
person.
Then you start that cycle thelove avoidant person.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
then you start that cycle and what did you notice in
your own assessment of your ownlife, how your attachment style
in your childhood might haveimpacted your later life A bit
of both.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So I've grown up with my grandmother and I had
feelings of abandonment from mymum and dad.
But I would always search forthat love from the male.
I was always searching.
From a young age I was alwayssearching for a boyfriend to
look after me, to make me feelvalidated.
It's also why I was prone toalways kind of falling into
(22:38):
relationships that maybesomebody was having an affair
with me because, as a loveaddict.
It makes you feel special andimportant and that you're really
.
You know they're having thisaffair with you, so you're the
special one.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I love this topic because I also think, um, it can
really explain where we mightlean on alcohol to numb out some
of the anxieties that we mighthave with the attachment and the
relationship that we've gotwith our partner.
It can also explain why wemight feel so anxious when we're
(23:20):
socially connecting and relyingon alcohol in those contexts,
and some of the deeper therapywork that all of us tend to do
as therapists in this space isoften to look at our attachments
and try and untangle them andwork them into a secure
attachment.
Is this something that you'vebeen able to do with yourself on
(23:42):
a very personal level, but thatyou then work with your clients
to attempt to achieve?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Definitely.
The thing is, it's hard though,because love addiction and then
if you have alcohol, it's veryhard to work on the love
addiction part.
You know this when you'redrinking right, so it's kind of
like it's two differentprocesses but you can also use
those kind of examples to helpsomebody understand why they
might be drinking or why theymight be prone to cheating.
The thing is, if you're loveavoidant and you're with
(24:12):
somebody because they need you,they're always.
Maybe you're that person thatcomes in as a saviour, you're
there to rescue them andsomething that becomes
suffocating and nothing you cando is really helping them and
they're kind of becoming veryattached to you.
Your natural instinct is tostart avoiding, yeah, and which
(24:32):
will make you want to go out andeither cheat or cheat and drink
, because we know alcohol isgoing to remove your inhibitions
, giving you the ability to goand cheat.
But that is how it correlates.
And for me, I was always stuckin that cycle because and like I
said before, I didn't know if Iexplained this properly, but I
have a bit of a love addictionand love avoidance, and so when
(24:54):
I was in these relationships, Icould be with somebody and I've
chosen somebody that needs me,but then they suddenly get over
needy and they're suffocating me, and then I would go out, drink
and then try and find somebodythat needed me again, and then
I'm always searching for thatbrush and then I'd feel shame
about that.
So what am I going to do?
(25:15):
I'm going to go and drink, soit's like this cycle.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And it's a cycle that you're repeating again and
again and again.
You're thinking why am I withthat same sort of style of
partner?
And then why have I got thisalcohol problem on the side?
That seems to be intimatelyconnected with the whole cycle.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
And when we're chasing, likelove, addiction and you know,
love, avoidance, they're intensefeelings, they're intense
emotions, exactly the same asalcohol.
It's intense, you know thatrush, it's like a rush of relief
.
That's why we get addicted, soit's like we're searching for
those fixes.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, that really does make sense.
And you know, it kind ofreminds me, then, of that very
famous TED talk that everyonetalks about, johan Hari, that
the opposite or the antidote toaddiction is connection and
quality connection.
And I guess, if we were tointerpret and fit that into our
(26:24):
conversation, secure connection,secure attachment with somebody
.
So if you're in a relationshipwhere it just feels anxious,
avoidant, you feel abandoned,you're not seen and heard, wow,
what a physiological responseyou're going to have, that
anxiety, that nervous systemreaction that's going to really
fuel your use of alcohol, ifthat's your coping mechanism to
(26:45):
self-soothe.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, and I think it doesn't help right, because
every movie there's always somecomplication, there's always
something that we're trying tofight.
We should be fighting for love,we should be, and like guys,
I've had so many toxicrelationships like I've been
through them all Like, like, I'mjust lucky that the guy that
I'm with now he was secure, soanything I did, he was just like
what are you doing?
(27:08):
You know you can heal theseattachments.
Like I've got a very secureattachment now so you're not
stuck with this attachment styleand this way of being a love
addict or a love avoidant.
But you do have to do thatself-reflection get rid of the
alcohol for starters, becausethen you will start meeting
somebody that is okay.
(27:29):
Like, if you start to think thething is with love addiction,
you will always think you'rebelow the other person.
If you're a love addict, youwill think you're below that
person.
So the person that you go foris always someone like a god or
amazing and way better than you.
If you're a love avoidant, youwill always think you're better
than that person, which I'vedone so many times.
So I don't get hurt If I'mbetter than you, just a little
(27:52):
bit better than you.
Obviously, my perception, it'sless likely I'm going to get
rejected, right.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, yeah.
What would be the signs thatyour relationship isn't secure?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
If your relationship isn't secure, then you would be
having.
Well, your body responds you'dbe, anxious, you would always be
trying to.
If it is, you'd be trying to ifyou're.
If it is, you'll be trying toseek validation, like there's a
few ways it can happen.
Right, you could always feellike you're the lesser person.
You always feel like maybeyou're doing something wrong.
You've always you.
(28:31):
You don't look after your needsand you're sacrificing
everything for the other person,um, and you're always, you know
, just thinking about thatperson all the time.
That's the only thing you'rethinking about.
You're obsessing about thatperson.
Like they're not healthy thingsto do we do that with alcohol
(28:51):
as well Like we have thisfantasy about that Nothing they
do can be wrong.
And then there's the other sideof it.
If you're the person that islooking for that person that
needs you, then you might findyourself being quite
manipulative and, like you said,even if you're not aware of
those things, if you're feelinganxious if you're feeling like
(29:13):
you've got the ick all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
The ick, it's such a hot phrase at the moment, isn't
it the ick?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I know, yeah, it's such a hot phrase, gen Z right,
but if you always want to drinkaround them another thing,
that's what I find with peopleIf they're here and they always
want to drink around theirpartners and that's how they're
getting connection there'ssomething wrong.
If you want to go and drinkwithout them, then there's
something wrong.
Yeah, if you're texting otherpeople to get validation which
you know you shouldn't betexting.
There's something wrong.
(29:37):
If your relationship is asecret.
There's something wrong.
If you feel guilty when you'rewith them, there's something
wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, another layer of complication here, I guess,
is if you met that person and itcould be for many of us, I'm
not Gen Z, gen Xers then you canbe with that person for 20
years or so.
You might've met, drinking alot, and then you're going on
(30:04):
your own path to radicallyuntangle yourself from alcohol.
That's going to raise a wholelot of connection issues that
you would have been masking withalcohol.
I guess it doesn't necessarilymean that you're not right for
each other and it's unfixable,does it?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
But you're right, there is complexity to this.
That's why I say get rid of thealcohol before you start making
all your decisions.
Don't get off this podcast andbe like all right, I'm going to
break up with my partner.
This is what I'm doing.
No, get rid of the alcoholfirst.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Because also, people change.
Have compassion for yourself,have compassion for the other
person, because my partner, myhusband, still drinks, but he
never had the relationship I hadwith alcohol.
Yeah, and he didn't have thetrauma that I went through, like
we're very different, he's verysecure and we were able to work
through it.
(30:59):
And you know, and I'm able tocommunicate how I do feel,
because it still happens.
I remember talking to mytherapist and you know the
natural urge for me to do when Ifeel like something has come up
and I feel like he's rejectingme is to suddenly shut
everything off and not talk andthink about oh well, maybe maybe
this isn't like.
Just, maybe we aren't goodtogether, maybe we're just
(31:20):
friends like defense mode.
Yeah, maybe we aren't goodtogether.
Maybe we're just friends likedefense mode.
Yeah, so your things can evolveand change.
But I suppose the mostimportant thing you can control
is start reflecting on yourselfand knowing you know how does
this person make you feel yeah,yeah without alcohol.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I think that's a really good point, because you
know if, depending on what yourattachment style particularly if
it's an anxious attachmentstyle because you might have had
a chaotic upbringing where allyour needs may not have been met
so you're anxious for whereyou're going to find your love
and how to react in thoserelationships that might feel
(32:03):
like home and safe to youbecause that's what you're used
to.
I imagine.
So, if you've hooked up withsomebody that has those elements
that might have felt normal fora large patch and until
something within you has decided, something has to change.
(32:23):
So that starts with some innerwork, doesn't it?
It starts with that looking backinto my history.
Why have I been created thisway?
It's not something wrong withme.
How do I take those steps tobecome more secure?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
That's doable Like you said it's doable and it's
not your fault that you havefelt this way or that you have
had issues of love addiction orlove avoidance Like this isn't
your fault.
This is something that hashappened to you when you're
younger because you, like yousaid, haven't got your needs met
.
As a child who shouldn't gettheir needs met.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes, that's right, let alone then wanting to then
embark back with that partnerwithout alcohol.
You know, sober sex, that'ssuch a big topic that is raised.
You know, that's a whole otherpodcast episode, mel, that we
should probably have you back onto talk about, because all
(33:25):
those layers of intimacy withyour partner, where alcohol
might have helped you getthrough, suddenly leave you very
stark and vulnerable, doesn'tit?
So you must deal with that alot, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, definitely, and I think definitely has to be
another podcast, because evenwith the love addiction, the
love avoidance side to it, thataffects your intimacy.
You know, sometimes people,even if they're in a secure
relationship with a secureperson, they can't have sex with
that person.
Yeah, because, like you weresaying before, it is so normal
(34:00):
to have that chaos in their lifeand so they're going to try and
even they've got this amazingrelationship but they're still
needing to search for thatsexual side of themselves
through infidelity.
They don't want that.
Yeah, but it's another part ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
A lot of these issues come to the fore, particularly
in the ages you know, yourmid-40s and late 40s, because
that's a real can be a real forkin the road.
Mel, you've beautifullyundergone a lot of that earlier
(34:36):
on, but you'll have your otherforks to look forward to, no
doubt, as I will as well.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Especially when you come out of childbirth and, um,
your vagina feels like a dog'sbreakfast.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 1 (34:46):
talking about yes, absolutely.
That's a whole nother hurdle tonavigate.
I've got to remember those days.
But you've, you've got.
You know, in these late 40syou've got the hormonal changes,
(35:08):
the health changes, the weightgain.
You're giving up alcohol.
You're then looking at yourpartner differently.
Intimacy and connection is sofundamental to us as humans, but
it changes, mel.
Were you lucky enough to havemet your partner now after
(35:29):
alcohol, or was it during youralcohol phase?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I was sorry.
I met him in a bar so when Iwas drinking, so when I was 23,.
Yeah, definitely was shit-faced.
That was a time when I wastaking a lot of ecstasy and I
remember, yeah, I was off myhead most of the time at the
start of that relationship.
So we've come out of drinkingtogether.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So you know you were able to have navigated, becoming
alcohol free, working on yourattachment style and creating
what sounds like, you know, apretty solid foundation for, you
know, a partnership that worksWell.
(36:23):
No wonder you're working inthis area.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I never thought I'd have that.
I never thought I'd have that.
I'd never thought I'd neverseen it role modelled for me.
I always thought that I wouldbe in relationships where we
cheat.
I'd never thought that I wouldhave a stable family of my own.
So and if I hadn't given upalcohol?
This is why I just fucking lovesobriety and I love what you do
(36:45):
and sharing that awareness ofit, because people don't realise
like it is life-changing.
You know people who aren'tdestined to you know, if we look
at like patterns in trauma andpatterns in family dynamics and
stuff, it's like I would nothave this life I have now
without sobriety.
There's no way.
There's no way he would havemarried me.
(37:06):
No fucking way he would havemarried me, yeah.
And so like I looked atmessages I used to send him.
He'd be out for dinner and Iwould send abusive messages,
just acting like he'd alreadycheated on me or like just
totally just cuckoo messages andor never come home like it was
just awful the way I like I wasthe abuser.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I abused him and other people and he just had
that solid, secure benchmark tolet that kind of roll off and
see you for who you really areyeah, and he broke up with me.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Oh, and he broke up with you, but he wouldn't.
There's some boundaries, yeah,I think the difference with like
, if I because I've been abusedby people as well I take that on
right, oh, it's me, I'm afuckwit, but he never thought
that it was something wrong withhim and that is fucking like
(38:03):
next level, right, yeah, that'spretty powerful To not take
something on like that.
Yeah, confidence.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, mel, I could talk on this topic with you
forever, so I would love to haveyou come back on just to talk
about a few of the nuances thatwe've spoken about at a later
date.
But tell us a bit about well,more about what you do, what
your services are, where peoplecan find you, mel.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
So I have my own practice.
So it's called Mel WatkinsTherapy and I don't know, by the
time this is out, my Instagramwill probably change to Mel
Watkins Therapy, because I'vegrown out of.
It's not me, it's booze yeah, Ino longer really need to.
Yeah, exactly like I don't wantto just keep.
I will obviously share a lot ofstuff about alcohol, but it's
just being able to kind of notbe all about me and my drinking
(38:55):
journey.
Um, it's not as interesting now.
I don't have any slip-ups, sonot getting too cocky, but
there's no um tea on there, uh,but there's some great info on
there to help you stay motivatedand get some insights on
sobriety.
And also I will be going intolove addiction a lot more.
So we offer counselling forlove addiction and we also offer
(39:16):
our Alcohol Reset 12 programfor people wanting to give up
alcohol and they are drinking atnights at home.
So it's online and, yeah, itgoes for 12 weeks.
But I do recommend, if you dofeel like you're dealing with
love addiction and you also havealcohol addiction, get help for
(39:37):
the alcohol first, because it'svery hard to make decisions,
especially things that involveother people.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
If you're still drinking.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you just reminded me of that great
rule that if you've had quite asignificant problem with alcohol
, you shouldn't make any largelife-changing decisions.
Transformative decisions, andthat would include your
relationship within the first 12months of being alcohol-free.
Transformative decisions, andthat would include your
relationship within the first 12months of being alcohol-free.
Let the dust settle, Let younavigate who you are, where you
(40:09):
are, and take it from there.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Which I know is hard for all us drinkers that are
very impulsive.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yes, you know it's very hard to get back Change now
.
Let's do it.
Let's sign up, let's go.
No-transcript, let's go.
We all want to just go, all in,yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Trust the process.
Take your time with it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Mel, it has been an absolute delight to talk to you.
I know this will be a fun and,you know, insightful, thoughtful
, thought-provocative episodefor our listeners.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you for having me.
It's been great chatting withyou.
Thank you, Mel.
Well, today I am very excited to welcome Mel Watkins
to the Not Drinking Todaypodcast.
Mel is a psychotherapist andfounder of her own practice, mel
Watkins Therapy.
It's always great to meetpeople that you interact with
and follow on Instagram, and Melis one of those people.
(00:23):
I believe it's at NotMeTheBoos.
A huge welcome, mel.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hi, thank you.
Like you said, I've beenfollowing you guys for ages, so
I'm so happy I get to finally beon your podcast.
So thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I love these moments Now, these moments Now.
We always kind of launch off ina very typical format what's
your story around alcohol andhow did you get sober?
But I might just kick off justto ask the question how long
have you been alcohol free?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
So this question I haven't touched alcohol for, I
think, over three years nowAmazing.
But this is where I say my butright.
I started my sobriety journeywhen I was about 28,.
Took it seriously in COVID timebecause there was a lot of
(01:20):
times where I was just like I'venever thought I'd be sober.
I just thought I'd just quitalcohol for a bit and I'll try
and do a hundred days and I'llnever make it to a hundred days.
But I really started taking itseriously in COVID.
So then I was like I'm notdrinking.
I mapped out my whole plan ofwhat I wanted in my life.
I was at this very transitionalperiod.
I was in sales and events and Ijust wasn't happy anymore.
(01:41):
And of course, when you're nothappy, that is when you are
getting triggered the most.
So it was like, if I keep goingthis way, I'm going to die.
So I decided, okay, I'm goingto be sober.
And I made it to a year.
And that's when I had it's NotMe's Booze.
I'd started it.
I was tracking my journey.
Actually, no, I lie, I startedit when I wasn't sober because I
(02:03):
was just writing about myexperience with alcohol.
But then I, yeah, did aone-year sober and loved it and
then got super cocky and waslike I'm never going to drink
again and I drank again, yeah.
So I slipped up a couple oftimes and then I got sober and
(02:24):
stayed sober.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah.
So for listeners out there, melis 35, which is gosh.
What a lovely opportunity tolive just such a lovely chunk of
your life, forward-facing, withall that you've learnt, and,
can I also say, just to have gotthrough COVID taking the
(02:48):
healthy path rather than doingwhat many of us out there did,
which was to kind of spark awhole issue with alcohol in
those confined spaces alone.
You know, I know our stats wentup and up, but, mel gosh, that
statement, if I keep going onthis path I'm going to die.
(03:12):
So it sounded like things gotreally bad.
How bad did it get for you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So hard when you think about how bad things get
for you, because you just get soused to living in chaos.
And even, you know, at 27, Ihad a breakdown, like a mental
breakdown.
I was doing things that Ishouldn't have been doing.
I was drinking every day, doingcoke, doing whatever drug
anyone gave me really what wasavailable and yet that wasn't
(03:42):
enough to get sober.
You know, that was my Nana died, who I grew up with, like there
was so much shit going on, mypartner and I had broken up and
I was depressed.
I wanted to kill myself, likeit was such a, you know,
horrific time, but I stilldidn't think alcohol and drugs
were the problem.
And it wasn't until COVID, andagain, it was like this
(04:05):
depression that I was alwaysfeeling and this anxiety, and
that was my normal, though, butI think because I'd done a few
stints of sobriety and I waslike and you know, when I say
stints a month or maybe twomonths sometimes but I knew that
, wait, there is something inthis yeah and I like, because in
(04:25):
those times when I would gosober, I suddenly didn't have
this anxiety and this depression.
That was my normal and I wasn'tgoing out and making stupid
decisions.
I wasn't getting with people Ishouldn't be getting with, like
I wasn't having like theseromantic crushes on people that
weren't even my type.
Everything was just normal.
(04:46):
Like everything seemed so calmand I was like there's got to be
something in that.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Because what's the choice?
I just get so depressed andthen I do kill myself.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Oh yeah, sounds like things got really well complex
there for you at that age inyour life when there's just so
much going on, and thank God forthat.
You know that inner mentor,that inner voice that, or the
(05:18):
inner manager, is what I'm sortof talking about or describing
it often now that kept youguiding you back to just the
kernel of the idea that maybethis is something to do with
alcohol and the drugs, and notto say that alcohol and drugs
contributed to all of it.
(05:39):
But as for all of us, it'soften the case that if you
remove that big layer, only thencan you start to look a bit
deeper.
Mel, I guess there's so muchthere to go on.
But if you were to look backnow, why do you think you did
get into a problematicrelationship with alcohol and
(06:03):
cocaine?
What was going on for you andyour alcohol story, your
background there?
That really were the majorcontributors to it?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, I think you know, growing up in Hobart small
town, I mean, alcohol iseverywhere in Australia, right,
but in a small town there's notmuch else to do but drink.
And also small town everyoneknows everything about you.
So there is this big pool tojust belong and fit in and be
the cool person, be part of thepopular group and always seeking
(06:35):
that validation which is anormal.
It's a normal emotion for a lotof us, but I think for me it
was like when I drank, I didn'thave to worry about being
accepted, because I was acceptedbecause everyone else is
drinking.
You know that classic storyyour friends are drinking,
you're drinking and now suddenlyyou're cool and funny and the
life of the party.
I could.
(06:56):
I was very.
I always searched forrelationships, so it also gave
me those.
It turned off my inhibition soI could seek out relationships
that made me feel validated andthat was what alcohol gave me.
I think it gave me theopportunity to seek out people
that made me feel important andthat just carried on.
(07:18):
And I think, as you get older,I didn't have parents that were
drinkers like my grandma sorry,like she wasn't a drinker things
.
I didn't have parents that weredrinkers like my grandma sorry
like she wasn't a drinker.
So I never had alcohol in thehouse.
But I very quickly realized ifI drank.
I could get the attention andlove that I wanted and that just
followed on and got worse themore I was working in industry,
where when I you know, when Igot in my 20s, I worked in
(07:40):
events and hospitality andyou're in an industry where you
know if you drink you're goingto make sales, you're going to
have people like you more,you're going to be a life of the
party.
People want to have a good timewith you.
So it just became that tool forme.
That was my tool for all mysuccess in life, really Success
(08:01):
what I thought was success,that's right.
Um, success what I thought wassuccess, that's right, uh.
So yeah, that's kind of whereit all started and it was a real
.
It was escape as well.
I suppose you know when you dostruggle dealing with hard
emotions.
I think we're from a generationwhere when you're younger you
you're not validated in anyemotions that you feel, so
(08:22):
you're just told to just go downwith it.
So alcohol helped with that aswell.
If I was depressed, just drinkand I'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah.
It sounds as though then thatbecame the self-fulfilling story
that alcohol meant love,attention, it meant success at
work.
Alcohol meant love, attention,it meant success at work.
And if you haven't had afoundation, I guess, of really
(08:56):
feeling like all of those thingscan be internally satisfied,
like they've got to come fromour internal self, then it's
pretty alluring, isn't it?
Then it's pretty alluring,isn't it?
It suddenly, yeah, becomes thisanchor that you need in
everyday life.
When you started thinking youknow, maybe I need to have some
(09:16):
alcohol-free time under my belt,what did you do?
How did you start investigatingthat?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
to start investigating that.
I needed to relate it tosomething that was important to
me.
So I suppose I didn't come init thinking I need to quit
alcohol.
I came in it and this wasn't.
I wasn't even consciously awarethat alcohol was a problem, but
I really wanted to start abusiness and I really wanted to
be my fittest, be really fit andfeel really good about myself.
So there was these things thatI really wanted in my life and I
, you know, I was working thisjob where I was going out all
(09:54):
the time and waking up, feelinglike shit and not going to the
gym and not doing anything newin my life.
It's okay to just do the normalthings I know how to do, but I
could never achieve the goalsthat I wanted to achieve or even
figure out a business idearight, like I was just always so
stuck.
And even my relationship nowhe's my husband, but I was in a
(10:15):
relationship with him and Ididn't know what I wanted, like
he'd always say to me, likesometimes he'd say I just don't
know when you're going to leavebecause I didn't know what I was
, what I wanted.
So I was always confused.
And I think I listened to JamesSchwanwick Am I saying that
right?
Yeah, yeah, podcast.
And he was talking about cause.
I was looking for businessowners and how people started
(10:37):
their business.
And then he talked about hissobriety and I was like, oh,
maybe that's what I need to do.
So it was never.
It never came from my life isso bad, it's alcohol.
It came from.
My life is bad, I need tochange it and this is what I
want in my life.
And then that came to myconscious like, oh, maybe if I
quit alcohol I'll figure outwhat I want.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, and it also sounds though you had that very
strong internal drive that keptquestioning the status quo, kept
questioning how you werefeeling.
What's going on in my life?
There has to be something more.
So it sounds as though there'sthat inner strength, and thank
(11:20):
God for that.
Don't you think that we don'tjust sit there and let life pass
us by?
And that you did it so young?
Where did you get that strengthfrom to be able to buck the
trend so young?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think I got it from .
That's a tough question.
I've never been asked thatbefore.
The strength I think it wasfrom it does come to a point of
being desperate, right?
Yes, fear's a good driver.
Yeah, yeah it was.
I was just sick of it.
I was sick of hating myself andwhen I started writing about it
(11:53):
I could just tell how much Ihated myself.
Yeah, and I was just sick ofthat.
I was like there's got to besomething else.
Even the job that I was in youknow, it's a job I always wanted
to be in, in these events andthis like kind of glamorous
world that people think it isgoing out to events getting
wasted.
But my boss was abusive.
I was always like in trouble,like, yeah, there was always so
(12:16):
much abuse and toxicity and itwas just chaotic.
Yeah, and I was like there mustbe like something else, because
that's not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, how can I?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
keep living like this .
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, looking for a pursuit of something that's more
calmer, more content.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And gosh alcohol certainly adds to the chaos,
doesn't it Fuel to the fire?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
That's the question, because I feel like the strength
was more.
It was just coming out of beingdesperate yeah, Though I will
actually say my ex-boyfrienddied of suicide and that kind of
was maybe a push to stay soberbecause I was like, when
somebody dies from that way, soclose to you, you start to think
(13:07):
, especially when you've hadthose thoughts in the past, and
then you see the effect that ithas on everybody.
I can do that Like I don'tthink that, I want to do that.
I don't think that's my otheroption now.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, I can imagine that very sad, devastating life
event would have fundamentally,profoundly, have impacted just
you.
Would have been asking yourselfall of the questions how do I?
You know all of those big lifequestions would have come home
(13:39):
to roost during that time.
Yeah, did you have any rolemodels out there that were sort
of leading the way alcohol-free,or were you one of the first?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, I read Naked Mind, yeah, yeah yeah.
That was the first quit alcoholbook I read and obviously that
made a huge impact in my life.
So I followed Annie, listenedto her podcast, still listen to
her podcast.
So, yeah, that helped a lotbecause that was the only thing
really out there at that time,that's right.
(14:13):
But what about in yourfriendship circle?
Oh no, love my friends, but no,we were all big drinkers.
I was the biggest drinker, butno one, even my friends.
Now I don't really have a lotof sober friends, yeah, yeah,
(14:33):
yeah, nobody really.
That was a role model.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah.
So that takes a lot of couragein itself to go out there and be
one of the first, be one of thetrailblazers in your social
circle.
And you mentioned a yearalcohol-free.
How did you do it?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I think having my Instagram keeping me accountable
and sharing my journey, andthen trying to meet sober people
as well, like I really embracedsobriety.
I was willing to learn anything.
I was also studying counselling, so I had an idea of what
direction I wanted to go withthis.
I was a really big motivator,so I was willing to like read
(15:10):
and listen to podcasts andunderstand why I was drinking,
where that was coming from, andthen like practice the skills
that I'm learning.
You have to embrace yourself inthis journey, otherwise, if you
do it half-assed, you won't get.
You just don't get there.
You will get there, but it willtake time and I didn't have
(15:31):
time.
I'm not going to waste moreyears doing this same shit over
and over again, so I was verydetermined to get this right.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, and you're right, it doesn't happen
overnight, does it?
It is small shifts withconsistent effort, and you
slowly plot away just to kind ofbring about that change you
mentioned.
You read Annie Grace.
Uh, you were listening topodcasts and then, I guess, just
(16:04):
putting it into practice Was itjust willpower?
Just again and again, and again, until you started to feel the
gains, and I guess thatmotivated you.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, and a lot of things like, I suppose, writing
a lot about it.
I always separated alcohol frommyself, so I wrote a lot of
letters on my blog saying dearalcohol, why am I feeling like
this again?
And I've even got the blogwhere I was like I'm going to
moderate, dear alcohol, I don'tthink I have a problem with you,
I'm going to moderate and I'veyou know, the other week I drank
mindfully, I didn't even get ahangover and I'm like got this
(16:34):
and then, like a week later oror I think maybe even two weeks
later, I'm like, hey, alcohol,you fucked me over again.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, yeah, oh God, I love that method of detaching
alcohol and what it does to you,who you become when you drink
it from your core self.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I think as well, when you're just going back to you
know it would have been hard foryou to go out and do this while
your friends were stilldrinking stuff.
Yeah, I think as well, whenyou're just going back to you
know it would have been hard foryou to go out and do this while
your friends were stilldrinking and stuff.
Yeah, I had done a lot of shitthings to my friends.
So they were kind of like,thank fuck, yeah right, she's
growing up or she's doingsomething about it.
And they didn't think it wasthe alcohol.
They just thought I was likejust a chaotic person who just
(17:20):
could never be present or have aproper conversation, or like
they.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
So they were glad that I was just trying to do
something to start changing mybehaviors yes, so a radical
change, because it does feellike a radical change to
suddenly they know alcohol, tonot be that version of yourself
when you're out partying, wasreally accepted by your friends.
I love it.
Oh, that is fantastic.
(17:47):
Well, you know, one of thespecialties that you focus on
which I'd love to hear moreabout and your thoughts on, is
the connection between love,addiction, infidelity and
alcohol.
Yeah, what are your thoughts onhow they all fit together?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Oh, I find this so fascinating, absolutely
fascinating.
So thanks for asking thisquestion, because the
correlation between these thingsis that it's so strong, yet
people don't want to talk aboutit and people ignore it.
(18:30):
Because, again, we are livingin a society where it not only
makes a fantasy for alcohol, italso makes a fantasy for love.
I mean, look at the notebook.
Yeah, you know the love wecan't have, the love we would
sacrifice ourselves for, thelove.
That is so traumatizing thatwe'll never get over it.
And the biggest thing is likethis isn't what love is.
(18:55):
That's not what love should belike.
It shouldn't make you feelanxious.
It shouldn't make you feel likeyou can't live without it, and
that's what we are craving.
It shouldn't make you feel likeyou can't live without it, and
that's what we are craving andthat's what we want.
And if we don't have it, andwhen something feels secure,
then we're like oh, I think thisis working out yeah, um, why do
you think sabotage it?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
we do, and what's your, I guess, ideas around why
people, some people, do that?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
so we have love addiction and we have love
avoidance.
Okay, so love addiction itcomes from.
We're looking at your childhoodand some people can have a bit
of both.
So again, people complex so whenyour child and your caregiver
has abandoned you or makes youfeel irrelevant, or maybe you
(19:45):
know there's been some neglector even abuse you can feel like
you're abandoned, you're notreceiving that love or that
secure attachment.
And the problem is there, thosecaregivers sometimes, when they
abandon you, they also thengive you some breadcrumbs to
come back to.
So there might be a day where,even though they treat you like
crap, there might be a day wherethey're like oh, you're so
(20:07):
special, let's go for an icecream.
And you hold on to that.
You're like they're amazing,they've just given you this and
that's what you hold on to.
And then, as you grow older,you're looking for that person.
And it's interesting becausefor heterosexuals mostly, you
know, if you have love addictionand it's the say, it's the mum
(20:28):
that has abandoned you, then youwill look for love addiction in
a woman which is what mostlikely happens.
Okay, so it's normally theperson who has abandoned you is
the one sorry.
Is that you will look for thatlove addiction with.
So love addiction doesn't justhappen with a loved one, it can
happen with like, a friend or afamily member.
(20:51):
I understand it can happen with,like a person that you're in
love with, a person that you'reromantically involved with Got
you, that makes sense.
Romantically involved with Gotyou that makes sense.
Love avoidance is when you areenmeshed with your caregiver.
So your caregiver is relying onyou for things as a child, the
parent is relying on the childand you're kind of relying on
(21:14):
each other, but more thecaregiver.
You're kind of enmeshed intogether.
There is no parent and child.
And then as you get older, whatyou're looking for in
relationships you're not lookingfor that love, equal love.
You're looking for a personthat needs you.
You, they need you.
(21:36):
That's what you're looking forin love and what does that
attract?
So a love avoidance person isgoing to attract a love addict.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, all of that does make sense.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so that's what you'llfind.
A lot of the time A love addictwill be with a love avoidance
person.
Then you start that cycle thelove avoidant person.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
then you start that cycle and what did you notice in
your own assessment of your ownlife, how your attachment style
in your childhood might haveimpacted your later life A bit
of both.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So I've grown up with my grandmother and I had
feelings of abandonment from mymum and dad.
But I would always search forthat love from the male.
I was always searching.
From a young age I was alwayssearching for a boyfriend to
look after me, to make me feelvalidated.
It's also why I was prone toalways kind of falling into
(22:38):
relationships that maybesomebody was having an affair
with me because, as a loveaddict.
It makes you feel special andimportant and that you're really
.
You know they're having thisaffair with you, so you're the
special one.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I love this topic because I also think, um, it can
really explain where we mightlean on alcohol to numb out some
of the anxieties that we mighthave with the attachment and the
relationship that we've gotwith our partner.
It can also explain why wemight feel so anxious when we're
(23:20):
socially connecting and relyingon alcohol in those contexts,
and some of the deeper therapywork that all of us tend to do
as therapists in this space isoften to look at our attachments
and try and untangle them andwork them into a secure
attachment.
Is this something that you'vebeen able to do with yourself on
(23:42):
a very personal level, but thatyou then work with your clients
to attempt to achieve?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Definitely.
The thing is, it's hard though,because love addiction and then
if you have alcohol, it's veryhard to work on the love
addiction part.
You know this when you'redrinking right, so it's kind of
like it's two differentprocesses but you can also use
those kind of examples to helpsomebody understand why they
might be drinking or why theymight be prone to cheating.
The thing is, if you're loveavoidant and you're with
(24:12):
somebody because they need you,they're always.
Maybe you're that person thatcomes in as a saviour, you're
there to rescue them andsomething that becomes
suffocating and nothing you cando is really helping them and
they're kind of becoming veryattached to you.
Your natural instinct is tostart avoiding, yeah, and which
(24:32):
will make you want to go out andeither cheat or cheat and drink
, because we know alcohol isgoing to remove your inhibitions
, giving you the ability to goand cheat.
But that is how it correlates.
And for me, I was always stuckin that cycle because and like I
said before, I didn't know if Iexplained this properly, but I
have a bit of a love addictionand love avoidance, and so when
(24:54):
I was in these relationships, Icould be with somebody and I've
chosen somebody that needs me,but then they suddenly get over
needy and they're suffocating me, and then I would go out, drink
and then try and find somebodythat needed me again, and then
I'm always searching for thatbrush and then I'd feel shame
about that.
So what am I going to do?
(25:15):
I'm going to go and drink, soit's like this cycle.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And it's a cycle that you're repeating again and
again and again.
You're thinking why am I withthat same sort of style of
partner?
And then why have I got thisalcohol problem on the side?
That seems to be intimatelyconnected with the whole cycle.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah.
And when we're chasing, likelove, addiction and you know,
love, avoidance, they're intensefeelings, they're intense
emotions, exactly the same asalcohol.
It's intense, you know thatrush, it's like a rush of relief
.
That's why we get addicted, soit's like we're searching for
those fixes.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, that really does make sense.
And you know, it kind ofreminds me, then, of that very
famous TED talk that everyonetalks about, johan Hari, that
the opposite or the antidote toaddiction is connection and
quality connection.
And I guess, if we were tointerpret and fit that into our
(26:24):
conversation, secure connection,secure attachment with somebody
.
So if you're in a relationshipwhere it just feels anxious,
avoidant, you feel abandoned,you're not seen and heard, wow,
what a physiological responseyou're going to have, that
anxiety, that nervous systemreaction that's going to really
fuel your use of alcohol, ifthat's your coping mechanism to
(26:45):
self-soothe.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, and I think it doesn't help right, because
every movie there's always somecomplication, there's always
something that we're trying tofight.
We should be fighting for love,we should be, and like guys,
I've had so many toxicrelationships like I've been
through them all Like, like, I'mjust lucky that the guy that
I'm with now he was secure, soanything I did, he was just like
what are you doing?
(27:08):
You know you can heal theseattachments.
Like I've got a very secureattachment now so you're not
stuck with this attachment styleand this way of being a love
addict or a love avoidant.
But you do have to do thatself-reflection get rid of the
alcohol for starters, becausethen you will start meeting
somebody that is okay.
(27:29):
Like, if you start to think thething is with love addiction,
you will always think you'rebelow the other person.
If you're a love addict, youwill think you're below that
person.
So the person that you go foris always someone like a god or
amazing and way better than you.
If you're a love avoidant, youwill always think you're better
than that person, which I'vedone so many times.
So I don't get hurt If I'mbetter than you, just a little
(27:52):
bit better than you.
Obviously, my perception, it'sless likely I'm going to get
rejected, right.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, yeah.
What would be the signs thatyour relationship isn't secure?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
If your relationship isn't secure, then you would be
having.
Well, your body responds you'dbe, anxious, you would always be
trying to.
If it is, you'd be trying to ifyou're.
If it is, you'll be trying toseek validation, like there's a
few ways it can happen.
Right, you could always feellike you're the lesser person.
You always feel like maybeyou're doing something wrong.
You've always you.
(28:31):
You don't look after your needsand you're sacrificing
everything for the other person,um, and you're always, you know
, just thinking about thatperson all the time.
That's the only thing you'rethinking about.
You're obsessing about thatperson.
Like they're not healthy thingsto do we do that with alcohol
(28:51):
as well Like we have thisfantasy about that Nothing they
do can be wrong.
And then there's the other sideof it.
If you're the person that islooking for that person that
needs you, then you might findyourself being quite
manipulative and, like you said,even if you're not aware of
those things, if you're feelinganxious if you're feeling like
(29:13):
you've got the ick all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
The ick, it's such a hot phrase at the moment, isn't
it the ick?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I know, yeah, it's such a hot phrase, gen Z right,
but if you always want to drinkaround them another thing,
that's what I find with peopleIf they're here and they always
want to drink around theirpartners and that's how they're
getting connection there'ssomething wrong.
If you want to go and drinkwithout them, then there's
something wrong.
Yeah, if you're texting otherpeople to get validation which
you know you shouldn't betexting.
There's something wrong.
(29:37):
If your relationship is asecret.
There's something wrong.
If you feel guilty when you'rewith them, there's something
wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, another layer of complication here, I guess,
is if you met that person and itcould be for many of us, I'm
not Gen Z, gen Xers then you canbe with that person for 20
years or so.
You might've met, drinking alot, and then you're going on
(30:04):
your own path to radicallyuntangle yourself from alcohol.
That's going to raise a wholelot of connection issues that
you would have been masking withalcohol.
I guess it doesn't necessarilymean that you're not right for
each other and it's unfixable,does it?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
But you're right, there is complexity to this.
That's why I say get rid of thealcohol before you start making
all your decisions.
Don't get off this podcast andbe like all right, I'm going to
break up with my partner.
This is what I'm doing.
No, get rid of the alcoholfirst.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Because also, people change.
Have compassion for yourself,have compassion for the other
person, because my partner, myhusband, still drinks, but he
never had the relationship I hadwith alcohol.
Yeah, and he didn't have thetrauma that I went through, like
we're very different, he's verysecure and we were able to work
through it.
(30:59):
And you know, and I'm able tocommunicate how I do feel,
because it still happens.
I remember talking to mytherapist and you know the
natural urge for me to do when Ifeel like something has come up
and I feel like he's rejectingme is to suddenly shut
everything off and not talk andthink about oh well, maybe maybe
this isn't like.
Just, maybe we aren't goodtogether, maybe we're just
(31:20):
friends like defense mode.
Yeah, maybe we aren't goodtogether.
Maybe we're just friends likedefense mode.
Yeah, so your things can evolveand change.
But I suppose the mostimportant thing you can control
is start reflecting on yourselfand knowing you know how does
this person make you feel yeah,yeah without alcohol.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I think that's a really good point, because you
know if, depending on what yourattachment style particularly if
it's an anxious attachmentstyle because you might have had
a chaotic upbringing where allyour needs may not have been met
so you're anxious for whereyou're going to find your love
and how to react in thoserelationships that might feel
(32:03):
like home and safe to youbecause that's what you're used
to.
I imagine.
So, if you've hooked up withsomebody that has those elements
that might have felt normal fora large patch and until
something within you has decided, something has to change.
(32:23):
So that starts with some innerwork, doesn't it?
It starts with that looking backinto my history.
Why have I been created thisway?
It's not something wrong withme.
How do I take those steps tobecome more secure?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
That's doable Like you said it's doable and it's
not your fault that you havefelt this way or that you have
had issues of love addiction orlove avoidance Like this isn't
your fault.
This is something that hashappened to you when you're
younger because you, like yousaid, haven't got your needs met
.
As a child who shouldn't gettheir needs met.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes, that's right, let alone then wanting to then
embark back with that partnerwithout alcohol.
You know, sober sex, that'ssuch a big topic that is raised.
You know, that's a whole otherpodcast episode, mel, that we
should probably have you back onto talk about, because all
(33:25):
those layers of intimacy withyour partner, where alcohol
might have helped you getthrough, suddenly leave you very
stark and vulnerable, doesn'tit?
So you must deal with that alot, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, definitely, and I think definitely has to be
another podcast, because evenwith the love addiction, the
love avoidance side to it, thataffects your intimacy.
You know, sometimes people,even if they're in a secure
relationship with a secureperson, they can't have sex with
that person.
Yeah, because, like you weresaying before, it is so normal
(34:00):
to have that chaos in their lifeand so they're going to try and
even they've got this amazingrelationship but they're still
needing to search for thatsexual side of themselves
through infidelity.
They don't want that.
Yeah, but it's another part ofaddiction.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
A lot of these issues come to the fore, particularly
in the ages you know, yourmid-40s and late 40s, because
that's a real can be a real forkin the road.
Mel, you've beautifullyundergone a lot of that earlier
(34:36):
on, but you'll have your otherforks to look forward to, no
doubt, as I will as well.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Especially when you come out of childbirth and, um,
your vagina feels like a dog'sbreakfast.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 1 (34:46):
talking about yes, absolutely.
That's a whole nother hurdle tonavigate.
I've got to remember those days.
But you've, you've got.
You know, in these late 40syou've got the hormonal changes,
(35:08):
the health changes, the weightgain.
You're giving up alcohol.
You're then looking at yourpartner differently.
Intimacy and connection is sofundamental to us as humans, but
it changes, mel.
Were you lucky enough to havemet your partner now after
(35:29):
alcohol, or was it during youralcohol phase?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
I was sorry.
I met him in a bar so when Iwas drinking, so when I was 23,.
Yeah, definitely was shit-faced.
That was a time when I wastaking a lot of ecstasy and I
remember, yeah, I was off myhead most of the time at the
start of that relationship.
So we've come out of drinkingtogether.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So you know you were able to have navigated, becoming
alcohol free, working on yourattachment style and creating
what sounds like, you know, apretty solid foundation for, you
know, a partnership that worksWell.
(36:23):
No wonder you're working inthis area.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I never thought I'd have that.
I never thought I'd have that.
I'd never thought I'd neverseen it role modelled for me.
I always thought that I wouldbe in relationships where we
cheat.
I'd never thought that I wouldhave a stable family of my own.
So and if I hadn't given upalcohol?
This is why I just fucking lovesobriety and I love what you do
(36:45):
and sharing that awareness ofit, because people don't realise
like it is life-changing.
You know people who aren'tdestined to you know, if we look
at like patterns in trauma andpatterns in family dynamics and
stuff, it's like I would nothave this life I have now
without sobriety.
There's no way.
There's no way he would havemarried me.
(37:06):
No fucking way he would havemarried me, yeah.
And so like I looked atmessages I used to send him.
He'd be out for dinner and Iwould send abusive messages,
just acting like he'd alreadycheated on me or like just
totally just cuckoo messages andor never come home like it was
just awful the way I like I wasthe abuser.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I abused him and other people and he just had
that solid, secure benchmark tolet that kind of roll off and
see you for who you really areyeah, and he broke up with me.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Oh, and he broke up with you, but he wouldn't.
There's some boundaries, yeah,I think the difference with like
, if I because I've been abusedby people as well I take that on
right, oh, it's me, I'm afuckwit, but he never thought
that it was something wrong withhim and that is fucking like
(38:03):
next level, right, yeah, that'spretty powerful To not take
something on like that.
Yeah, confidence.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, mel, I could talk on this topic with you
forever, so I would love to haveyou come back on just to talk
about a few of the nuances thatwe've spoken about at a later
date.
But tell us a bit about well,more about what you do, what
your services are, where peoplecan find you, mel.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
So I have my own practice.
So it's called Mel WatkinsTherapy and I don't know, by the
time this is out, my Instagramwill probably change to Mel
Watkins Therapy, because I'vegrown out of.
It's not me, it's booze yeah, Ino longer really need to.
Yeah, exactly like I don't wantto just keep.
I will obviously share a lot ofstuff about alcohol, but it's
just being able to kind of notbe all about me and my drinking
(38:55):
journey.
Um, it's not as interesting now.
I don't have any slip-ups, sonot getting too cocky, but
there's no um tea on there, uh,but there's some great info on
there to help you stay motivatedand get some insights on
sobriety.
And also I will be going intolove addiction a lot more.
So we offer counselling forlove addiction and we also offer
(39:16):
our Alcohol Reset 12 programfor people wanting to give up
alcohol and they are drinking atnights at home.
So it's online and, yeah, itgoes for 12 weeks.
But I do recommend, if you dofeel like you're dealing with
love addiction and you also havealcohol addiction, get help for
(39:37):
the alcohol first, because it'svery hard to make decisions,
especially things that involveother people.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
If you're still drinking.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you just reminded me of that great
rule that if you've had quite asignificant problem with alcohol
, you shouldn't make any largelife-changing decisions.
Transformative decisions, andthat would include your
relationship within the first 12months of being alcohol-free.
Transformative decisions, andthat would include your
relationship within the first 12months of being alcohol-free.
Let the dust settle, Let younavigate who you are, where you
(40:09):
are, and take it from there.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Which I know is hard for all us drinkers that are
very impulsive.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yes, you know it's very hard to get back Change now
.
Let's do it.
Let's sign up, let's go.
No-transcript, let's go.
We all want to just go, all in,yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Trust the process.
Take your time with it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Mel, it has been an absolute delight to talk to you.
I know this will be a fun and,you know, insightful, thoughtful
, thought-provocative episodefor our listeners.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Thank you for having me.
It's been great chatting withyou.
Thank you, Mel.
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