February 15, 2025 • 39 mins
On the eve of celebrating five years of sobriety, Seana Smith joins Bella for a powerful and deeply personal conversation about recovery, resilience, and rewriting her story. In this riveting episode, Seana opens up about the profound impact of her father’s alcoholism on her childhood and how it shaped her journey toward healing. She shares how embracing emotional sobriety, building a strong support network, and writing her memoir, Going Under, became transformative steps in reclaiming her life. Seana also reflects on her move from Scotland to Australia, her path to self-forgiveness, and the joy that comes with emotional sobriety. This episode is a heartfelt invitation to redefine our relationships with addiction, embrace self-discovery, and find strength in the lessons our past offers.
LEARN MORE ABOUT SEANA
https://www.instagram.com/seanasmith/
https://www.instagram.com/sober_journeys
In Australia: Going Under is available in bookshops and online stores in Australia and on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Going-Under-memoir-secrets-addiction/dp/0645497231/
In the USA: https://www.amazon.com/Going-Under-memoir-secrets-addiction/dp/0645497231/
In the UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Under-memoir-secrets-addiction/dp/0645497231/
Going Under Audiobook: Going Under on Audible, narrated by Seana Smith, click here.
MEG
Web: https://www.meganwebb.com.au/
Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/meganwebbcoaching/
Unwined Bookclub: https://www.alcoholfreedom.com.au/unwinedbookclub
ConnectAF group coaching: https://www.elizaparkinson.com/groupcoaching
BELLA
Web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
Insta: @alcoholcounsellorisabella
Bi-Yearly 6-Week Small Group Challenges: Learn more: https://www.isabellaferguson.com.au/feb-2025-challenge
Free Do I Have A Drinking Problem 3 x Video Series: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/JTFFgjJL/checkout
Free HOW DO I STOP DRINKING SO MUCH Masterclass: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/7fvkb3FF/checkout
Online Alcohol Self-Paced Course: https://resources.isabellaferguson.com.au/offers/fDzcyvWL/checkout...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we're welcoming Shauna Smith, author of Going
Under a memoir of familyaddiction and escape, and it's
about Shauna's move, also fromScotland to gorgeous Orange in
Australia.
And on top of that, shauna justadvised me by email a little
(00:22):
while ago that she's celebratingfive years alcohol free.
So welcome and congratulations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Oh, thank you very much.
It's lovely to do this podcast.
It's like a way of celebratingthe fifth year anniversary.
What a new life I've had.
I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
And I can't wait to get into all of that.
And five years is a brilliant,beautiful milestone.
You know there's six weeks,three months a year, but five
years is solid, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Solid, very solid, and I'm never going back, like
never going back, ever, ever.
So I haven't often counted alot, because I've always been
looking forward rather thanlooking back.
And I'm always looking forward,thinking I'm never going back
there, I'm just going on andeverything's new now and
(01:10):
everything's better.
But when the fire, when it hitsthe year, it does feel really
significant and you do feelproud yeah, you do.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, there's a lot of sober firsts that you've
encountered in a year, let alonefive years, so it'd be hard for
something in life to throw youoff course, we can be blindsided
, can't we?
But after five years you'vekind of done it all.
I want to just kick off firstof all by saying thank you.
(01:38):
Thank you, shauna, for writingthis book.
It's personal, but it's alsofunny and familiar with some I
mean awesome childhoodadventures, but also some
hardships as well.
And you know this is the storyof alcohol in the world, that it
is a slow descent into aproblematic drinking
(02:01):
relationship.
You don't just suddenly wake up, do we, and say here we are,
I've got a problem with alcohol.
It often starts with childhoodexperiences, well before we've
had our first drink.
Do you think this is where itall started with you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think so, definitely, definitely,
definitely.
Because I was brought up inthis Scottish family, which was
quite typical in lots of ways,but also not typical in others.
So I would say half mychildhood was really great.
We had a boat, we went sailing,I ran around the Hebrides, we
sailed around Skye.
(02:39):
It was beautiful and theholidays were marvellous.
But at home you just never knewwhat was going to happen next,
because my dad was a massivedrinker, which is one thing, but
he was also aggressive andviolent at times.
So he was as I write about inthe book.
He was Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydeand you just never knew who was
(03:00):
coming next.
And when he was fun, he wasfantastic fun.
He was an extremely capable,intelligent man.
He played musical instruments,ran a building business, was
very kind in lots of ways andgenerous, but when he drank and
became nasty, he was awful.
So we endured domestic violenceand I will not be the only
(03:20):
person at all.
There'll be lots of peoplelistening to this who had that
experience as well either ofphysical violence or emotional
violence as well.
We had a bit of everything, andthe difficult thing was we just
didn't know what was going tohappen next.
It was really distressing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Wow, so there's sort of a picture there of tiptoeing
around him uncertainty which canreally create, can really
impact a child, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Definitely, and watching him be really awful to
our mother, who we thought wasthe most gorgeous, beautiful
princess.
You know, it was in the 70s.
She wore long cloaks and shehad beautiful dresses and she
was very young, she had herchildren very young, and we
wanted to help her, um, but wecouldn't.
You know, you just can't, andalways there's that feeling of
(04:13):
helplessness, you know, and ifsomething's wrong, this is all
wrong.
This shouldn't be happening, um, and and we couldn't rescue her
.
We tried and and tried, but wejust couldn't.
I always was trying to get herto leave him and she never left
him.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It's complicated, Very complicated, yeah.
How do you now reconcile yourfather's behaviour and his
exposure to you and yoursiblings to not just his anger
but I guess his drinking whichdrove and fuelled the?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
anger now?
Yes, it certainly did.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
With that benefit of hindsight, looking back, perhaps
thinking of his own upbringing.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I've actually got really mixed feelings about it,
you know, because we don't knowenough about his interior life
to know what it was that drovehim into heavy, heavy drinking
and then to addictive behaviours.
But I've also been very angrylooking back.
You know there are a lot ofpeople who drink a lot and have
(05:14):
a massive drink problem who arenever aggressive or angry.
So it's almost like twodifferent things.
Absolutely, the drinking reallymade it worse and for many
years I thought, oh, if he'dnever drunk that would never
have happened.
But now I think I understandbetter that there's other things
going on.
I think he took on too much.
He had four children by thetime he was 30 and he really
(05:36):
wanted to make a success and toshow my mother's parents that he
was good enough for her.
So there was definitely a bigchip on the shoulder there about
them getting married and hepushed and, pushed and pushed
and life was just too much forhim.
But he was a Scottish man bornbefore the war.
He certainly wasn't in tunewith his emotions and able to
(05:57):
talk about things and he used to, you know, rant about people
who would talk about theiremotions, but he was using
alcohol as a massive crutch.
Yeah, and it didn't work for himand the poor fellow.
So all in my many mixedemotions, I also feel terribly
sorry for him because he haddementia of some type, never
(06:18):
properly diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
By the time he was 65 yes, pretty young yeah, it was
really interesting to read aboutor hear about it in your
beautiful storytelling voice,which I just loved.
It drew me into the Audiblebook.
The way that your mother oneaspect that she coped was going
(06:41):
to AA that supported partners ofalcoholics.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, well, al-anon.
So she started off by phoningAA and begging them to remove my
father and to fix him.
The person that mum was talkingto in AA said we cannot help
your husband, mrs Smith, unlesshe wants help, but we can help
you, and mum went to Al-Anon,which is a worldwide
(07:09):
organisation but an anonymousone, and that really helped her.
So I also wanted to tell thestory of this unpredictable Dr
Jekyll and Mr Hyde father andchildhood, but also the story of
my mum, who never left him, butshe became emancipated during
their marriage and she startedto have some detachment from him
(07:33):
and to live her own life, stayin her own house, keep gardening
her own garden, grow her bonsaitrees and have a very happy
life within herself.
Yes, and at some remove attimes from what was happening
with my dad and then with mybrother as well, who's had, you
know, a lot of difficulties inhis life.
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
It was an amazing story.
I mean, she just sounded likeshe was able to see her life for
what it was.
Reach out to resources when andhow she could and make the best
of it of a hard situation.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
She did, and all her children had left, because she
had us all by the time she was28.
By the time she was 50, I thinkwe'd all left home, and
although my brother, who has adiagnosis of schizophrenia which
is very severe, and now hasterrible cognitive impairment,
although he came and went andshe did have to look after him.
(08:36):
I do also think that once we'dall grown up, she was able to do
much more of what she wanted to.
She went travelling on her own.
She went to Iceland.
She used to come to visit us inAustralia and be quite hands-on
with the grandchildren andleave Dad behind.
Yes, although I do, I reallylove the story I put into the
book of when they came to visitus in Pakistan.
(08:58):
When I lived in Pakistan when myson was a baby, it was a dry
country and we had a lovelyholiday because Dad wasn't
drinking at all.
Yeah, so that actually was areally happy memory.
And just to be fair to dad, youknow he was a wonderful
provider for his family.
He worked extremely hard and hedid take us on adventures and I
wanted to put that in.
(09:19):
I didn't want this black andwhite image because I was trying
to reconcile in my own mindwhat had happened and sort of
put it all to bed.
So I had to write the good andthe bad and then look at how
that affected me and what I'mtrying to take now, what I'm
trying to focus on now, which isthe good from my childhood, not
(09:40):
the bad.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
That's right and that's the beauty of your memoir
, shauna, I think, because youcan't just readily take sides.
It is complex, there's love,there's hate, there's confusion,
and that's what makes it sohard.
There are two lovely, poignantmoments in the book.
There was in the prologue whenyou're building the shelves in.
(10:04):
Orange in your garage and you'rejust contemplating what it
would look like if you put thegumboots on the shelf and I
wonder if I could put somebottles and hide my bottles in
there to when you had gone backto Scotland and your father had
passed away and you had cleanedout that liquor cabinet.
Yes, it was so significant.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, it really was a really, really important moment
in my life.
He'd been buried, this cabinetwhich had been the centre of the
house, lots of partying in thatroom, but which had become a
mausoleum it had only the drinksthat he kept drinking.
Nobody visited him anymore,there was no fun in that room
(10:47):
anymore, and I just wanted toclean it and put it to bed.
And that happened.
And I was always thinking afterit happened, I thought I really
want to write about that, Ireally want to write about that.
And then when I finally did, Icould remember every moment of
cleaning that cupboard, you know, and I wrote and wrote and
wrote about it.
But there were so many momentsfrom my life that I had really
(11:09):
wanted to put on paper, get themout of my head onto the page,
which is part of me growingolder, but it's a big.
Also, it's a big part of mebeing sober and wanting to look
at my whole drinking story.
Yeah, put an end to it, that'sthe thing, so it's.
I really only felt when Istopped drinking that that was
(11:30):
the end of my father's drinkingstory too and the massive
influence that had on me.
Um, I really lots of peoplewho've got a, an alcoholic
parent or a difficult parent.
They never drink, and I so wishthat had been me.
That would make life a loteasier.
But I think many, many, manypeople have a disrupted
childhood and then they carrythis pain with them and they try
(11:53):
to drink it away, but itdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
No, it doesn't work and it is one of those criteria
in the ACEs school the adversechildhood experiences school.
If you've got a parent that isdrunk, it's just one of the big
factors that will lead to thenyour likelihood of drinking or
(12:16):
not.
But so there's that thought inthe shed with the gumboots, and
again I want to thank you formentioning that, because those
are the stories that reallyresonate with many women, many
(12:37):
of our listeners that have alsohidden bottles or stashed them
and had such shame around them.
Was that well, I'd love to hearhow did it get to that point for
you?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Well, I think it got to that point slowly and with me
trying not to get to that point, and I never did hide the
bottles in the garage, but justthe thought that I was thinking
of it made me think I felt soterrible.
I thought, oh my God, you can'tdo that.
Anyway, I mean I had hidden mydrinking, but I hadn't actually
hidden bottles before.
But I think as soon as I leftschool I started drinking a lot
(13:17):
and I was a massive bingedrinker through my 20s and I was
always still shifting around.
I was always on the move.
I was never quite comfortable,but I luckily worked in
television, where you alwayshave short contracts, so I could
always be on the move, so I wasdoing lots of geographics.
I did stop drinking when I was30 and met my husband when I had
(13:38):
stopped after a year ofcounselling, which was very
helpful for me, and when my fourchildren were little I wasn't
drinking a huge amount.
I was living in the suburbs inSydney after we arrived from
Pakistan and I was always havingto drive and I'm sure I often
drove, you know, having had toomuch, but I wasn't falling about
drum corps in a bad state whenthey were little.
(14:00):
But it was almost as soon aslife got a bit easier when my
twins started going to schooland I could feel myself ramping
up the drinking I also.
The year they went to school, Istarted to take more exercise
and of course I wanted to behealthy.
I had these.
My twins were born when I was42.
(14:21):
And I really feel that it is aduty and I must look after
myself because these childrenneed me and it was my choice to
have them.
Well, I planned to have one,but I ended up having twins.
So I had this strong urge to behealthy and yet I was writing
myself off with alcohol.
And the first time I stoppedfor a year was when they were
(14:42):
the year they turned seven, Ithink.
And it was because I knew itwas just getting out of hand and
I was panicking and I thought Iwould stop for a year.
I went to AA that year.
Stop for a year, Stop for ayear, Be really healthy, because
at the end of that year I'll bedifferent, Everything will
change.
(15:04):
But it didn't.
You know.
I'm sure you would have clientslike that.
I look back and think you, bigdope, what were you thinking?
And then it took me another sixyears before I actually bit the
bullet and realized that I wasnot a human being who was going
to ever be able to be a moderatedrinker or a light drinker.
And you know, I know lots ofpeople who never drink very much
at all loads of them and it'sjust not an issue for them.
(15:28):
But I've never been like that,you know, and I had just decades
of wishful thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh, I think it's really common to try and keep
that foot in the door ofmoderation.
It's an elusive door.
There isn't a door for many ofus, many of us, but you're right
, there are many that can.
Yeah, they say that giving upalcohol is, I think it's, 10% to
(15:56):
20% physically stopping, andthen 80% to 20% physically
stopping, and then 80% to 90%.
Emotional resilience, emotionalsobriety yes, well, we have to
kind of let go of peoplepleasing, avoiding our life,
trying to control outcomes, allthose avoidant behaviours of
which alcohol firmly sits inthere, the easiest, quickest one
(16:17):
perhaps.
What does that mean for you?
Emotional sobriety?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, it means for me dealing with life, with real
life as it's happening, and notjust trying to opt out of life,
which isn't to say that therearen't times when you are very
stressed, and I might.
If I'm feeling absolutelyshocking now, I might take
myself off to bed and watchsomething on Netflix for a
(16:45):
couple of hours, because I justneed to opt out for a bit.
So it's not that one never doesthat or you don't need to, but
it's just having a lot moreawareness that you can solve
most issues in life.
I was avoiding many, manyissues in life, things between
my husband and me, the many upsand downs I'd had with mothering
(17:07):
and domesticity, which I reallyloved, but it's also been
exceptionally boring sometimesand then exceptionally difficult
.
But I wasn't facing the worldstraight on, I was just sliding
off to the side.
The biggest thing as well, Ithink, was that I always, having
(17:28):
left home when I was 16 andthen left the country and left
again, and even that move toOrange we'd lived in Sydney for
many years and we moved toOrange the year mum died, and
that was just too much for me.
I love to have community, Iwant to feel as if I belong, and
I think that also kept medrinking, because I wanted to be
(17:48):
there with everybody else whowas having fun.
I wanted to be one of the partypeople.
I wanted everybody to like me.
Yes, how exhausting.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So exhausting.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But I think the reason, one of the reasons I
stopped meaning to just stop fora month but stayed stopped was
the wonderful community thatthere had, that had grown up.
I could not find that in 2013.
I went to AA, but I didn'tlisten to podcasts and I didn't
read quick lit books.
I actually did read one or two,but not the amount that there
(18:19):
were, and I didn't relate tothem as much because they
weren't written by grey areadrinkers and mothers like me.
They were written by people whohad amazing stories that made
me feel I was a lightweightdrinker because they were taking
loads of drugs.
Yes, yes, that's a problem initself as well Interesting To
(18:42):
read things by people that Icould really relate to and go on
Zooms and be in groups.
I mean, I don't.
I'm not proud of the fact thatI've been such a people pleaser
and I'm so needy, you know, inlots of ways, but it certainly
was who I was.
I feel more resilient now and Idon't mind so much if people
don't like me.
I don't know whether that's apostmenopausal thing, getting
older thing, but or or justbecoming, because I am more my
(19:03):
authentic, true self now, youknow, whereas I was always
dodging around trying to keepeverybody happy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Trying to work it out .
Oh, I can completely relate andI know so many women that can
relate.
We, we, um, I had a greatdiscussion with a group of women
in one of the challenges that Irun about this topic.
So then suddenly there's amoment in our life the light
bulb, as you said, and you justthink, oh, something has to
change.
(19:30):
What has kept you in thiswonderful sobriety?
What keeps you going on a dailybasis?
What's the daily routine thatworks for you, shauna?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I think getting outdoors swimming, yeah.
And then two years intosobriety I bought a little dog
and I'd never had a dog beforeand my two big boys had left and
my twins were teenagers anddidn't quite love me as much as
I needed.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
No, they don't do they.
That's putting it mildly in myhead.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I got this delightful little hound and now she and I.
She's a wee poodle and she andI go for walks every day.
Getting outside is my mentalhealth, you know that's what I
do.
But swimming at the there's afantastic pool in Orange and
then we will get.
We will move back to the coast,I think, because I think for my
old age I'd like to be swimmingin the sea, so that keeps me
(20:30):
going.
But also I have met marvellouspeople in the sober communities
and I have lovely, lovelyfriends in and out of sober
communities, but without them,you know, I'm not a person, I
think, without my family and myfriends.
But writing the book was alsohas really helped me come to
(20:53):
terms with the past and I dofeel really strongly that it's
worth doing.
You know whether you write itand if you are writing it, you
definitely need emotionalsupport 100%.
But learning to write creativenon-fiction like that, putting
all these things down, includingsome really meaningful times
(21:14):
there's a whole chapter that's alot about when my mum had
dementia and how we managed tolook after her as adults when we
couldn't as children.
I cannot tell you how healingthat is.
So just trying to have a lookat the big picture of your life,
where are you, and it reallyhelps with looking forward and,
yeah, where am I going one dayat a time, you know?
(21:34):
Um, yeah, so it's really.
The last five years have beenfantastic for me, and I'm sure
I'm a better parent as well, andnow my children are about to
fly off into the world, butthey've got a stable parent to
come home to, or two parents um,you've most certainly broken
that generational tie thatalcohol often has between
(21:58):
generations.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I am curious what was it like, I guess, exposing this
story?
You know this.
Maybe it is getting easierthese days, I don't know than
around alcohol in a smallcountry town.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah well, I actually especially Orange because it's
got 30 vineyards around it.
I was quite open about it.
I think I am a chatterbox andI've always been quite an
oversharer, but I'm amazed athow many people say to me oh, I
didn't know all of that, shauna,like people have known me for a
really long time because I'dnever told everybody everything
(22:32):
before, if you know what I meanin a one-er.
Um, but I I don't feel it wasparticularly brave.
I think I did have a reactionto the fact that we weren't
really allowed to talk about itas children, and I very
specifically waited until bothmy parents had passed away,
because I don't think I wouldhave felt free to write
(22:53):
emotionally free to write whilstthey were still alive, but all
the words had been waiting topour out.
And so I'm quite comfortableabout it.
And there are some.
Well, there are many things inthat book that I'm not proud of.
There's quite a smallpercentage of what I'm not proud
of in my life, and there'squite a small percentage of what
I'm not proud of in my life,but I thought it was important
(23:13):
to put things in there thatshowed me up in a bad light,
because I was in a bad spot.
You know I was in a bad placeand I did loads of things that I
hope my daughter will never do,that I hope my children will
never do.
But I really wanted to be outthere and, amazingly, none of
the kids are really interestedin reading it.
And my daughter says couldn'tyou put it all on TikTok?
(23:34):
I was going to know what to do.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
What dance?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
it Dance the memoir.
So I was concerned aboutrelatives in Scotland who've
been lovely about it.
You know people who knew a bitof the story but not all of it,
and I was concerned about peoplebeing upset.
But you see, people knew andit's just that it wasn't talked
about.
And I found it incrediblyfreeing to be to tell the truth
(24:04):
yeah, you know and to be honestabout so that you know, I've
written a lot of things that um,dad would definitely not want
me to know about.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Well, tell people about mom, I'm sure as well, but
they did happen and it's mystory, so it's very liberating
to write it actually and I'msure there have been so well so
many other people out there thathave lived with a very similar
circumstance Absolutely thefather that drank a lot that got
angry?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, but who wasn't a complete monster?
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
But you didn't know who you were getting.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
It's so difficult to live with you know, yeah it is
so difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I really loved at the oh some part in the book where
you mentioned a quote from oh.
Somebody might have been fromAA, you can tell me, but it's
never.
You're never too old to startliving your childhood.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'll tell you what it is.
I went to an Al-Anon meetingmyself, so I've been to Al-Anon
meetings and it was in Edinburghmany years ago.
And this young guy said oh, hesaid you're never too old to
enjoy your happy childhood.
That has had a big impact on me.
How so?
Well, for many years I wasthinking well.
When I had my own children Ithought, oh, this is a good
(25:21):
laugh, and now I'm having.
It was stable.
My children's childhood wasmore or less stable and I was
able to go to the park and runaround and go to the beach and
it was all quite calm.
More I think now that thechildren are not needing me so
much.
I am going to go and do what Iloved doing as a child.
So I loved horse riding when Iwas a child.
I've got great hopes of doingsome of that.
(25:44):
It's not even the riding, it'sthe smell of the horse's noses.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
And we used to lie making daisy chains and we just
used to wander about.
So I'm aiming to have a bit ofjust wandering around, you know,
with my wee dog and my husbandwill come where.
You don't care particularlywhere you're going or what
you're doing and you're noticingall the plants.
So all that I mean beingbrought up in the countryside in
Scotland and then moving out tothe countryside in orange, not
(26:14):
being in the city really alsohelped make me feel that I was
tapping back into that, you know, but with more colourful birds
and snakes, um so, but I thinkthat is a wonderful thing to
remember.
You know that, that you canhave fun and you can have your
childlike self in the world atany age.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Oh, I just got the goosebumps.
It is beautiful, andparticularly when you might be
drinking to mask Some pain, painand memories from your
childhood.
And often our development getsheld in abeyance when we're
starting our big drinking career, which is often in our 20s, so
(26:55):
you kind of want to tap backinto that feeling that you may
not have had for a long time.
But I mean, there's often astage when people are giving up
alcohol where they want to havethat adventure, that fun, that
playful, spontaneous feeling,tap back into it.
But we've sort of forgotten howto do that without alcohol.
You've got all of that aroundyou.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I've got that because I have got that around me in
the country.
And when I go down to Sydneyand I swim in the sea and I swim
in the winter I love the hit,you know.
So I love the burst ofadrenaline and the dopamine
afterwards and don't feel as ifthat's something anybody needs
to apologise for, because welove excitement.
So I'm never going to jump outof a plane, but I can imagine
(27:41):
why people do it and there aremany healthy ways to give
yourself a big buzz if you're aperson who likes a big buzz.
And so any time I swim in thesea I am really quite nervous.
Even if I'm surrounded by lotsof other people and if I ever go
out in the sea I'll be in agroup with other people I'm
still quite terrified and Iquite like it.
(28:02):
So it's actually much moreadventurous, a bit of a thrill,
yeah, and I know people say, oh,it's boring if you don't drink,
but there is nothing moreboring than a hangover.
So one person might be in theirbed on a Sunday morning having
a hangover and I might beplunging into Bilgula rock pool,
you know, and hearing up anddown.
(28:22):
I think my I don't know whatthey are neurotransmitters,
hormones whatever they are, I'mtotally buzzing, I'm buzzing and
I like it.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yes, so do I.
It's helping.
I had my perfect day yesterday,which was a run and a jump in
the ocean, and it sets you upfor the day.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It does and it gives you a big, big buzz, and that's
fine.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Look, this book, I think, is a wonderful gift for
yourself or for anybody else outthere, and it's a book not just
about alcohol.
It's about grief, growing upand just discovering yourself
later in life.
Who are you writing it for,yeah, yeah, and who can you see
(29:09):
reading it?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, well, I think when one starts writing and I
have, I feel as if I've um, Ihaven't done a master's of
creative writing, but I've doneplenty of courses and I've had
mentors and I feel that I havegrown with my writing so you
start off getting it out of yourhead and out of your chest and
onto the page.
So I was started off withchildhood memories which are in
(29:32):
the book which I just went Nowthat is for me, so that's quite
selfish.
It's just me getting out of myhead onto the page and that's
your messy first draft and it'sprobably your messy second,
third draft as well.
But after that, if you want towrite a story that people will
(29:53):
enjoy reading, they have totrust you to tell them a proper
story.
So then you have to make surethat you have got a beginning, a
middle and an end and thatyou're laying it out and holding
the hand of the reader as theygo through.
And I wanted the reader torelate to the stories, or I mean
, rather, they didn't have thesame experience as I had, but if
(30:16):
they had, I knew how muchbenefit I get from reading
Everything I read.
You know most some things morethan others, but a lot of that
quick lit that I read.
At the beginning I was sograteful to the people for
telling me their story andhelping me stay sober.
Very crucial to my sobriety wasrelating and thinking these
cool, groovy women can do it,and I want to be in that gang.
(30:38):
You know that's my cool gang.
So then I mean, when I startedtalking to a publisher, then
there was more polishing to bedone and she asked me to take
some bits out that she thoughtwere going off on a tangent and
bolster up some other bits.
That was lovely when you startworking with other people having
I wrote on my own for quite along time, sustained by doing
(31:03):
memoir groups on a Sundaymorning with Jenny Valentich,
which were super helpful for me,but it's quite a lonely job and
then you're working with otherpeople so that by the end of it
you've got something that'spolished and that is going to
work for the reader yeah but itstarts off not working for the
reader.
and I love working with peoplewho want to write because I
(31:25):
think now I know how to guidepeople through that getting on
the page and then helping usethe craft and then you want to
hold the hand of the reader.
The reader has to trust you totake them through the story,
Because when somebody reads abook or listens to it, they're
giving you 10 hours of theirlife.
It's a big responsibility, youknow, and you want them to.
(31:46):
You can't be all doom and gloom.
You also have to have thelighter bits as well.
So it is a craft.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It is a craft.
Just as a final question foryou, shauna, and I think you're
perfectly placed to answer it,as part of some of the recovery
or alcohol-free challenges I run, one of the exercises we do
that's really impactful isrewriting your own alcohol
(32:13):
narrative, and people do it byway of a breakup story with
alcohol.
You know that alcohol promisedall these things, didn't deliver
, or they do it from theperspective of you know this is
what you did to my life, butthis is how I'm reframing it
going forward.
How has this whole memoirwriting experience, I guess,
(32:41):
allowed you to reframe yournarrative of your childhood and
your story experience withalcohol?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I think it has allowed me, with the childhood
stuff, to look at it and to seeall the good parts, because
emotionally we respond and we'retraumatized by the bad parts,
but the good parts have animpact to a positive impact, and
what I've tried to do is writeout the bad parts so I can take
the good parts into my matureyears and with my own story.
(33:11):
It's part of theself-forgiveness.
Yeah, I think it's also part oflooking at it really bluntly
and saying this is what happened.
I wish this hadn't happened.
I was stupid here, and there's alot in the book, as you know,
of me berating myself.
Yes, but I was always lookingfor freedom.
So I think I understand myselfand I'm so lucky that as my
(33:36):
children got older, when I mighthave got into some really bad
habits and maybe started hidingthe booze, and when the twins
were young teenagers, I stoppedand stayed, stopped through the
wonderful sober community andthen wrote this story, which has
helped me stay stopped as well,undoubtedly.
(33:57):
But it's also helped me forgivemyself and see that big picture
and just think it's almost likeI've written it down.
That was then and this is menow.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, you know yeah, what's in the pipeline for you
now?
So?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I have written the worst messy first draft.
I'm sure it's the worst.
I mean, everybody says theirfirst drafts are terrible, but
this one's really terrible.
It's a novel and it's aboutswimming and older age.
Oh, that's good.
Yes love it.
My massive ambition is to writesomething set in Scotland that
is about drinking, but I think Ihave to practice first and I'm
(34:32):
really, really keen to work withpeople who want to write,
because I think that it's I doit already and I um, and it's
I'd love to do more of thatbecause it's so rewarding.
You know, as you will know,that from coaching, you know
rewarding yeah so rewarding umand help people um.
I think when you're writing aswell, you need a lot of
(34:52):
emotional support.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I think, with these big moments in your life that
have really impacted yournervous system, the way your
belief systems, you'reuntangling yourself a little.
That support is needed Now.
Dear listeners, this book isjust a beautiful read.
It's moving, inspiring, andthere's a bit of laughter, a few
(35:15):
tears, but it really is one ofthose life-changing books.
It would just I'd put it upthere on that quit lit list, but
also as a gift, or for yourselfif you wanted a summer read
Shauna, where's the place thatpeople can go to to listen on
(35:38):
Audible, that's one spot or justto buy it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well, it should be anywhere.
I mean, with a book that's notlike a huge bestseller.
It might not be in everybookshop.
It should be in Big W, though,and I have to say it's better to
buy it.
It's cheaper in Big W or onAmazon, because Amazon seems to
constantly have it at a cheaperrate.
But of course, your localbookshop can.
(36:02):
If they don't actually havecopies in stock, they can order
in.
Bigger shops like Demyx willhave it.
Then it's available onaudiobook.
It's also at your library, so alot of libraries have got it
and library apps have got it.
And then people are loving theaudible.
I think Australians just love aScottish accent you know, yeah,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I'm a Ferguson, there's some.
There's a Scottish heritage.
I love the.
Your voice, yeah, and thestories, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
That's how I listen in the car yeah, well, I love, I
love Audible too, and I.
It was a big deal reading itout, like it was quite emotional
, oh yeah, and have a cry, but Ifelt very proud of it.
So I know people have enjoyedthat and I think it's also
available to listen to onlibrary apps as well Fantastic,
so it should be available toeverybody.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And you might give me some links as well, shauna,
that I can honk in the shownotes.
Thank you, it was such adelight meeting you.
It's lovely to meet youface-to-face as well.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I know Really cool, you're welcome.
Today we're welcoming Shauna Smith, author of Going
Under a memoir of familyaddiction and escape, and it's
about Shauna's move, also fromScotland to gorgeous Orange in
Australia.
And on top of that, shauna justadvised me by email a little
(00:22):
while ago that she's celebratingfive years alcohol free.
So welcome and congratulations.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Oh, thank you very much.
It's lovely to do this podcast.
It's like a way of celebratingthe fifth year anniversary.
What a new life I've had.
I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
And I can't wait to get into all of that.
And five years is a brilliant,beautiful milestone.
You know there's six weeks,three months a year, but five
years is solid, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Solid, very solid, and I'm never going back, like
never going back, ever, ever.
So I haven't often counted alot, because I've always been
looking forward rather thanlooking back.
And I'm always looking forward,thinking I'm never going back
there, I'm just going on andeverything's new now and
(01:10):
everything's better.
But when the fire, when it hitsthe year, it does feel really
significant and you do feelproud yeah, you do.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, there's a lot of sober firsts that you've
encountered in a year, let alonefive years, so it'd be hard for
something in life to throw youoff course, we can be blindsided
, can't we?
But after five years you'vekind of done it all.
I want to just kick off firstof all by saying thank you.
(01:38):
Thank you, shauna, for writingthis book.
It's personal, but it's alsofunny and familiar with some I
mean awesome childhoodadventures, but also some
hardships as well.
And you know this is the storyof alcohol in the world, that it
is a slow descent into aproblematic drinking
(02:01):
relationship.
You don't just suddenly wake up, do we, and say here we are,
I've got a problem with alcohol.
It often starts with childhoodexperiences, well before we've
had our first drink.
Do you think this is where itall started with you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think so, definitely, definitely,
definitely.
Because I was brought up inthis Scottish family, which was
quite typical in lots of ways,but also not typical in others.
So I would say half mychildhood was really great.
We had a boat, we went sailing,I ran around the Hebrides, we
sailed around Skye.
(02:39):
It was beautiful and theholidays were marvellous.
But at home you just never knewwhat was going to happen next,
because my dad was a massivedrinker, which is one thing, but
he was also aggressive andviolent at times.
So he was as I write about inthe book.
He was Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydeand you just never knew who was
(03:00):
coming next.
And when he was fun, he wasfantastic fun.
He was an extremely capable,intelligent man.
He played musical instruments,ran a building business, was
very kind in lots of ways andgenerous, but when he drank and
became nasty, he was awful.
So we endured domestic violenceand I will not be the only
(03:20):
person at all.
There'll be lots of peoplelistening to this who had that
experience as well either ofphysical violence or emotional
violence as well.
We had a bit of everything, andthe difficult thing was we just
didn't know what was going tohappen next.
It was really distressing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Wow, so there's sort of a picture there of tiptoeing
around him uncertainty which canreally create, can really
impact a child, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Definitely, and watching him be really awful to
our mother, who we thought wasthe most gorgeous, beautiful
princess.
You know, it was in the 70s.
She wore long cloaks and shehad beautiful dresses and she
was very young, she had herchildren very young, and we
wanted to help her, um, but wecouldn't.
You know, you just can't, andalways there's that feeling of
(04:13):
helplessness, you know, and ifsomething's wrong, this is all
wrong.
This shouldn't be happening, um, and and we couldn't rescue her
.
We tried and and tried, but wejust couldn't.
I always was trying to get herto leave him and she never left
him.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It's complicated, Very complicated, yeah.
How do you now reconcile yourfather's behaviour and his
exposure to you and yoursiblings to not just his anger
but I guess his drinking whichdrove and fuelled the?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
anger now?
Yes, it certainly did.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
With that benefit of hindsight, looking back, perhaps
thinking of his own upbringing.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I've actually got really mixed feelings about it,
you know, because we don't knowenough about his interior life
to know what it was that drovehim into heavy, heavy drinking
and then to addictive behaviours.
But I've also been very angrylooking back.
You know there are a lot ofpeople who drink a lot and have
(05:14):
a massive drink problem who arenever aggressive or angry.
So it's almost like twodifferent things.
Absolutely, the drinking reallymade it worse and for many
years I thought, oh, if he'dnever drunk that would never
have happened.
But now I think I understandbetter that there's other things
going on.
I think he took on too much.
He had four children by thetime he was 30 and he really
(05:36):
wanted to make a success and toshow my mother's parents that he
was good enough for her.
So there was definitely a bigchip on the shoulder there about
them getting married and hepushed and, pushed and pushed
and life was just too much forhim.
But he was a Scottish man bornbefore the war.
He certainly wasn't in tunewith his emotions and able to
(05:57):
talk about things and he used to, you know, rant about people
who would talk about theiremotions, but he was using
alcohol as a massive crutch.
Yeah, and it didn't work for himand the poor fellow.
So all in my many mixedemotions, I also feel terribly
sorry for him because he haddementia of some type, never
(06:18):
properly diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
By the time he was 65 yes, pretty young yeah, it was
really interesting to read aboutor hear about it in your
beautiful storytelling voice,which I just loved.
It drew me into the Audiblebook.
The way that your mother oneaspect that she coped was going
(06:41):
to AA that supported partners ofalcoholics.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, well, al-anon.
So she started off by phoningAA and begging them to remove my
father and to fix him.
The person that mum was talkingto in AA said we cannot help
your husband, mrs Smith, unlesshe wants help, but we can help
you, and mum went to Al-Anon,which is a worldwide
(07:09):
organisation but an anonymousone, and that really helped her.
So I also wanted to tell thestory of this unpredictable Dr
Jekyll and Mr Hyde father andchildhood, but also the story of
my mum, who never left him, butshe became emancipated during
their marriage and she startedto have some detachment from him
(07:33):
and to live her own life, stayin her own house, keep gardening
her own garden, grow her bonsaitrees and have a very happy
life within herself.
Yes, and at some remove attimes from what was happening
with my dad and then with mybrother as well, who's had, you
know, a lot of difficulties inhis life.
(07:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
It was an amazing story.
I mean, she just sounded likeshe was able to see her life for
what it was.
Reach out to resources when andhow she could and make the best
of it of a hard situation.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
She did, and all her children had left, because she
had us all by the time she was28.
By the time she was 50, I thinkwe'd all left home, and
although my brother, who has adiagnosis of schizophrenia which
is very severe, and now hasterrible cognitive impairment,
although he came and went andshe did have to look after him.
(08:36):
I do also think that once we'dall grown up, she was able to do
much more of what she wanted to.
She went travelling on her own.
She went to Iceland.
She used to come to visit us inAustralia and be quite hands-on
with the grandchildren andleave Dad behind.
Yes, although I do, I reallylove the story I put into the
book of when they came to visitus in Pakistan.
(08:58):
When I lived in Pakistan when myson was a baby, it was a dry
country and we had a lovelyholiday because Dad wasn't
drinking at all.
Yeah, so that actually was areally happy memory.
And just to be fair to dad, youknow he was a wonderful
provider for his family.
He worked extremely hard and hedid take us on adventures and I
wanted to put that in.
(09:19):
I didn't want this black andwhite image because I was trying
to reconcile in my own mindwhat had happened and sort of
put it all to bed.
So I had to write the good andthe bad and then look at how
that affected me and what I'mtrying to take now, what I'm
trying to focus on now, which isthe good from my childhood, not
(09:40):
the bad.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
That's right and that's the beauty of your memoir
, shauna, I think, because youcan't just readily take sides.
It is complex, there's love,there's hate, there's confusion,
and that's what makes it sohard.
There are two lovely, poignantmoments in the book.
There was in the prologue whenyou're building the shelves in.
(10:04):
Orange in your garage and you'rejust contemplating what it
would look like if you put thegumboots on the shelf and I
wonder if I could put somebottles and hide my bottles in
there to when you had gone backto Scotland and your father had
passed away and you had cleanedout that liquor cabinet.
Yes, it was so significant.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, it really was a really, really important moment
in my life.
He'd been buried, this cabinetwhich had been the centre of the
house, lots of partying in thatroom, but which had become a
mausoleum it had only the drinksthat he kept drinking.
Nobody visited him anymore,there was no fun in that room
(10:47):
anymore, and I just wanted toclean it and put it to bed.
And that happened.
And I was always thinking afterit happened, I thought I really
want to write about that, Ireally want to write about that.
And then when I finally did, Icould remember every moment of
cleaning that cupboard, you know, and I wrote and wrote and
wrote about it.
But there were so many momentsfrom my life that I had really
(11:09):
wanted to put on paper, get themout of my head onto the page,
which is part of me growingolder, but it's a big.
Also, it's a big part of mebeing sober and wanting to look
at my whole drinking story.
Yeah, put an end to it, that'sthe thing, so it's.
I really only felt when Istopped drinking that that was
(11:30):
the end of my father's drinkingstory too and the massive
influence that had on me.
Um, I really lots of peoplewho've got a, an alcoholic
parent or a difficult parent.
They never drink, and I so wishthat had been me.
That would make life a loteasier.
But I think many, many, manypeople have a disrupted
childhood and then they carrythis pain with them and they try
(11:53):
to drink it away, but itdoesn't work.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
No, it doesn't work and it is one of those criteria
in the ACEs school the adversechildhood experiences school.
If you've got a parent that isdrunk, it's just one of the big
factors that will lead to thenyour likelihood of drinking or
(12:16):
not.
But so there's that thought inthe shed with the gumboots, and
again I want to thank you formentioning that, because those
are the stories that reallyresonate with many women, many
(12:37):
of our listeners that have alsohidden bottles or stashed them
and had such shame around them.
Was that well, I'd love to hearhow did it get to that point for
you?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Well, I think it got to that point slowly and with me
trying not to get to that point, and I never did hide the
bottles in the garage, but justthe thought that I was thinking
of it made me think I felt soterrible.
I thought, oh my God, you can'tdo that.
Anyway, I mean I had hidden mydrinking, but I hadn't actually
hidden bottles before.
But I think as soon as I leftschool I started drinking a lot
(13:17):
and I was a massive bingedrinker through my 20s and I was
always still shifting around.
I was always on the move.
I was never quite comfortable,but I luckily worked in
television, where you alwayshave short contracts, so I could
always be on the move, so I wasdoing lots of geographics.
I did stop drinking when I was30 and met my husband when I had
(13:38):
stopped after a year ofcounselling, which was very
helpful for me, and when my fourchildren were little I wasn't
drinking a huge amount.
I was living in the suburbs inSydney after we arrived from
Pakistan and I was always havingto drive and I'm sure I often
drove, you know, having had toomuch, but I wasn't falling about
drum corps in a bad state whenthey were little.
(14:00):
But it was almost as soon aslife got a bit easier when my
twins started going to schooland I could feel myself ramping
up the drinking I also.
The year they went to school, Istarted to take more exercise
and of course I wanted to behealthy.
I had these.
My twins were born when I was42.
(14:21):
And I really feel that it is aduty and I must look after
myself because these childrenneed me and it was my choice to
have them.
Well, I planned to have one,but I ended up having twins.
So I had this strong urge to behealthy and yet I was writing
myself off with alcohol.
And the first time I stoppedfor a year was when they were
(14:42):
the year they turned seven, Ithink.
And it was because I knew itwas just getting out of hand and
I was panicking and I thought Iwould stop for a year.
I went to AA that year.
Stop for a year, Stop for ayear, Be really healthy, because
at the end of that year I'll bedifferent, Everything will
change.
(15:04):
But it didn't.
You know.
I'm sure you would have clientslike that.
I look back and think you, bigdope, what were you thinking?
And then it took me another sixyears before I actually bit the
bullet and realized that I wasnot a human being who was going
to ever be able to be a moderatedrinker or a light drinker.
And you know, I know lots ofpeople who never drink very much
at all loads of them and it'sjust not an issue for them.
(15:28):
But I've never been like that,you know, and I had just decades
of wishful thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh, I think it's really common to try and keep
that foot in the door ofmoderation.
It's an elusive door.
There isn't a door for many ofus, many of us, but you're right
, there are many that can.
Yeah, they say that giving upalcohol is, I think it's, 10% to
(15:56):
20% physically stopping, andthen 80% to 20% physically
stopping, and then 80% to 90%.
Emotional resilience, emotionalsobriety yes, well, we have to
kind of let go of peoplepleasing, avoiding our life,
trying to control outcomes, allthose avoidant behaviours of
which alcohol firmly sits inthere, the easiest, quickest one
(16:17):
perhaps.
What does that mean for you?
Emotional sobriety?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Well, it means for me dealing with life, with real
life as it's happening, and notjust trying to opt out of life,
which isn't to say that therearen't times when you are very
stressed, and I might.
If I'm feeling absolutelyshocking now, I might take
myself off to bed and watchsomething on Netflix for a
(16:45):
couple of hours, because I justneed to opt out for a bit.
So it's not that one never doesthat or you don't need to, but
it's just having a lot moreawareness that you can solve
most issues in life.
I was avoiding many, manyissues in life, things between
my husband and me, the many upsand downs I'd had with mothering
(17:07):
and domesticity, which I reallyloved, but it's also been
exceptionally boring sometimesand then exceptionally difficult
.
But I wasn't facing the worldstraight on, I was just sliding
off to the side.
The biggest thing as well, Ithink, was that I always, having
(17:28):
left home when I was 16 andthen left the country and left
again, and even that move toOrange we'd lived in Sydney for
many years and we moved toOrange the year mum died, and
that was just too much for me.
I love to have community, Iwant to feel as if I belong, and
I think that also kept medrinking, because I wanted to be
(17:48):
there with everybody else whowas having fun.
I wanted to be one of the partypeople.
I wanted everybody to like me.
Yes, how exhausting.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So exhausting.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But I think the reason, one of the reasons I
stopped meaning to just stop fora month but stayed stopped was
the wonderful community thatthere had, that had grown up.
I could not find that in 2013.
I went to AA, but I didn'tlisten to podcasts and I didn't
read quick lit books.
I actually did read one or two,but not the amount that there
(18:19):
were, and I didn't relate tothem as much because they
weren't written by grey areadrinkers and mothers like me.
They were written by people whohad amazing stories that made
me feel I was a lightweightdrinker because they were taking
loads of drugs.
Yes, yes, that's a problem initself as well Interesting To
(18:42):
read things by people that Icould really relate to and go on
Zooms and be in groups.
I mean, I don't.
I'm not proud of the fact thatI've been such a people pleaser
and I'm so needy, you know, inlots of ways, but it certainly
was who I was.
I feel more resilient now and Idon't mind so much if people
don't like me.
I don't know whether that's apostmenopausal thing, getting
older thing, but or or justbecoming, because I am more my
(19:03):
authentic, true self now, youknow, whereas I was always
dodging around trying to keepeverybody happy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Trying to work it out .
Oh, I can completely relate andI know so many women that can
relate.
We, we, um, I had a greatdiscussion with a group of women
in one of the challenges that Irun about this topic.
So then suddenly there's amoment in our life the light
bulb, as you said, and you justthink, oh, something has to
change.
(19:30):
What has kept you in thiswonderful sobriety?
What keeps you going on a dailybasis?
What's the daily routine thatworks for you, shauna?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I think getting outdoors swimming, yeah.
And then two years intosobriety I bought a little dog
and I'd never had a dog beforeand my two big boys had left and
my twins were teenagers anddidn't quite love me as much as
I needed.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
No, they don't do they.
That's putting it mildly in myhead.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I got this delightful little hound and now she and I.
She's a wee poodle and she andI go for walks every day.
Getting outside is my mentalhealth, you know that's what I
do.
But swimming at the there's afantastic pool in Orange and
then we will get.
We will move back to the coast,I think, because I think for my
old age I'd like to be swimmingin the sea, so that keeps me
(20:30):
going.
But also I have met marvellouspeople in the sober communities
and I have lovely, lovelyfriends in and out of sober
communities, but without them,you know, I'm not a person, I
think, without my family and myfriends.
But writing the book was alsohas really helped me come to
(20:53):
terms with the past and I dofeel really strongly that it's
worth doing.
You know whether you write itand if you are writing it, you
definitely need emotionalsupport 100%.
But learning to write creativenon-fiction like that, putting
all these things down, includingsome really meaningful times
(21:14):
there's a whole chapter that's alot about when my mum had
dementia and how we managed tolook after her as adults when we
couldn't as children.
I cannot tell you how healingthat is.
So just trying to have a lookat the big picture of your life,
where are you, and it reallyhelps with looking forward and,
yeah, where am I going one dayat a time, you know?
(21:34):
Um, yeah, so it's really.
The last five years have beenfantastic for me, and I'm sure
I'm a better parent as well, andnow my children are about to
fly off into the world, butthey've got a stable parent to
come home to, or two parents um,you've most certainly broken
that generational tie thatalcohol often has between
(21:58):
generations.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I am curious what was it like, I guess, exposing this
story?
You know this.
Maybe it is getting easierthese days, I don't know than
around alcohol in a smallcountry town.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah well, I actually especially Orange because it's
got 30 vineyards around it.
I was quite open about it.
I think I am a chatterbox andI've always been quite an
oversharer, but I'm amazed athow many people say to me oh, I
didn't know all of that, shauna,like people have known me for a
really long time because I'dnever told everybody everything
(22:32):
before, if you know what I meanin a one-er.
Um, but I I don't feel it wasparticularly brave.
I think I did have a reactionto the fact that we weren't
really allowed to talk about itas children, and I very
specifically waited until bothmy parents had passed away,
because I don't think I wouldhave felt free to write
(22:53):
emotionally free to write whilstthey were still alive, but all
the words had been waiting topour out.
And so I'm quite comfortableabout it.
And there are some.
Well, there are many things inthat book that I'm not proud of.
There's quite a smallpercentage of what I'm not proud
of in my life, and there'squite a small percentage of what
I'm not proud of in my life,but I thought it was important
(23:13):
to put things in there thatshowed me up in a bad light,
because I was in a bad spot.
You know I was in a bad placeand I did loads of things that I
hope my daughter will never do,that I hope my children will
never do.
But I really wanted to be outthere and, amazingly, none of
the kids are really interestedin reading it.
And my daughter says couldn'tyou put it all on TikTok?
(23:34):
I was going to know what to do.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
What dance?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
it Dance the memoir.
So I was concerned aboutrelatives in Scotland who've
been lovely about it.
You know people who knew a bitof the story but not all of it,
and I was concerned about peoplebeing upset.
But you see, people knew andit's just that it wasn't talked
about.
And I found it incrediblyfreeing to be to tell the truth
(24:04):
yeah, you know and to be honestabout so that you know, I've
written a lot of things that um,dad would definitely not want
me to know about.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Well, tell people about mom, I'm sure as well, but
they did happen and it's mystory, so it's very liberating
to write it actually and I'msure there have been so well so
many other people out there thathave lived with a very similar
circumstance Absolutely thefather that drank a lot that got
angry?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, but who wasn't a complete monster?
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
But you didn't know who you were getting.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
It's so difficult to live with you know, yeah it is
so difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I really loved at the oh some part in the book where
you mentioned a quote from oh.
Somebody might have been fromAA, you can tell me, but it's
never.
You're never too old to startliving your childhood.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'll tell you what it is.
I went to an Al-Anon meetingmyself, so I've been to Al-Anon
meetings and it was in Edinburghmany years ago.
And this young guy said oh, hesaid you're never too old to
enjoy your happy childhood.
That has had a big impact on me.
How so?
Well, for many years I wasthinking well.
When I had my own children Ithought, oh, this is a good
(25:21):
laugh, and now I'm having.
It was stable.
My children's childhood wasmore or less stable and I was
able to go to the park and runaround and go to the beach and
it was all quite calm.
More I think now that thechildren are not needing me so
much.
I am going to go and do what Iloved doing as a child.
So I loved horse riding when Iwas a child.
I've got great hopes of doingsome of that.
(25:44):
It's not even the riding, it'sthe smell of the horse's noses.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
And we used to lie making daisy chains and we just
used to wander about.
So I'm aiming to have a bit ofjust wandering around, you know,
with my wee dog and my husbandwill come where.
You don't care particularlywhere you're going or what
you're doing and you're noticingall the plants.
So all that I mean beingbrought up in the countryside in
Scotland and then moving out tothe countryside in orange, not
(26:14):
being in the city really alsohelped make me feel that I was
tapping back into that, you know, but with more colourful birds
and snakes, um so, but I thinkthat is a wonderful thing to
remember.
You know that, that you canhave fun and you can have your
childlike self in the world atany age.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Oh, I just got the goosebumps.
It is beautiful, andparticularly when you might be
drinking to mask Some pain, painand memories from your
childhood.
And often our development getsheld in abeyance when we're
starting our big drinking career, which is often in our 20s, so
(26:55):
you kind of want to tap backinto that feeling that you may
not have had for a long time.
But I mean, there's often astage when people are giving up
alcohol where they want to havethat adventure, that fun, that
playful, spontaneous feeling,tap back into it.
But we've sort of forgotten howto do that without alcohol.
You've got all of that aroundyou.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I've got that because I have got that around me in
the country.
And when I go down to Sydneyand I swim in the sea and I swim
in the winter I love the hit,you know.
So I love the burst ofadrenaline and the dopamine
afterwards and don't feel as ifthat's something anybody needs
to apologise for, because welove excitement.
So I'm never going to jump outof a plane, but I can imagine
(27:41):
why people do it and there aremany healthy ways to give
yourself a big buzz if you're aperson who likes a big buzz.
And so any time I swim in thesea I am really quite nervous.
Even if I'm surrounded by lotsof other people and if I ever go
out in the sea I'll be in agroup with other people I'm
still quite terrified and Iquite like it.
(28:02):
So it's actually much moreadventurous, a bit of a thrill,
yeah, and I know people say, oh,it's boring if you don't drink,
but there is nothing moreboring than a hangover.
So one person might be in theirbed on a Sunday morning having
a hangover and I might beplunging into Bilgula rock pool,
you know, and hearing up anddown.
(28:22):
I think my I don't know whatthey are neurotransmitters,
hormones whatever they are, I'mtotally buzzing, I'm buzzing and
I like it.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yes, so do I.
It's helping.
I had my perfect day yesterday,which was a run and a jump in
the ocean, and it sets you upfor the day.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It does and it gives you a big, big buzz, and that's
fine.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Look, this book, I think, is a wonderful gift for
yourself or for anybody else outthere, and it's a book not just
about alcohol.
It's about grief, growing upand just discovering yourself
later in life.
Who are you writing it for,yeah, yeah, and who can you see
(29:09):
reading it?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, well, I think when one starts writing and I
have, I feel as if I've um, Ihaven't done a master's of
creative writing, but I've doneplenty of courses and I've had
mentors and I feel that I havegrown with my writing so you
start off getting it out of yourhead and out of your chest and
onto the page.
So I was started off withchildhood memories which are in
(29:32):
the book which I just went Nowthat is for me, so that's quite
selfish.
It's just me getting out of myhead onto the page and that's
your messy first draft and it'sprobably your messy second,
third draft as well.
But after that, if you want towrite a story that people will
(29:53):
enjoy reading, they have totrust you to tell them a proper
story.
So then you have to make surethat you have got a beginning, a
middle and an end and thatyou're laying it out and holding
the hand of the reader as theygo through.
And I wanted the reader torelate to the stories, or I mean
, rather, they didn't have thesame experience as I had, but if
(30:16):
they had, I knew how muchbenefit I get from reading
Everything I read.
You know most some things morethan others, but a lot of that
quick lit that I read.
At the beginning I was sograteful to the people for
telling me their story andhelping me stay sober.
Very crucial to my sobriety wasrelating and thinking these
cool, groovy women can do it,and I want to be in that gang.
(30:38):
You know that's my cool gang.
So then I mean, when I startedtalking to a publisher, then
there was more polishing to bedone and she asked me to take
some bits out that she thoughtwere going off on a tangent and
bolster up some other bits.
That was lovely when you startworking with other people having
I wrote on my own for quite along time, sustained by doing
(31:03):
memoir groups on a Sundaymorning with Jenny Valentich,
which were super helpful for me,but it's quite a lonely job and
then you're working with otherpeople so that by the end of it
you've got something that'spolished and that is going to
work for the reader yeah but itstarts off not working for the
reader.
and I love working with peoplewho want to write because I
(31:25):
think now I know how to guidepeople through that getting on
the page and then helping usethe craft and then you want to
hold the hand of the reader.
The reader has to trust you totake them through the story,
Because when somebody reads abook or listens to it, they're
giving you 10 hours of theirlife.
It's a big responsibility, youknow, and you want them to.
(31:46):
You can't be all doom and gloom.
You also have to have thelighter bits as well.
So it is a craft.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It is a craft.
Just as a final question foryou, shauna, and I think you're
perfectly placed to answer it,as part of some of the recovery
or alcohol-free challenges I run, one of the exercises we do
that's really impactful isrewriting your own alcohol
(32:13):
narrative, and people do it byway of a breakup story with
alcohol.
You know that alcohol promisedall these things, didn't deliver
, or they do it from theperspective of you know this is
what you did to my life, butthis is how I'm reframing it
going forward.
How has this whole memoirwriting experience, I guess,
(32:41):
allowed you to reframe yournarrative of your childhood and
your story experience withalcohol?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I think it has allowed me, with the childhood
stuff, to look at it and to seeall the good parts, because
emotionally we respond and we'retraumatized by the bad parts,
but the good parts have animpact to a positive impact, and
what I've tried to do is writeout the bad parts so I can take
the good parts into my matureyears and with my own story.
(33:11):
It's part of theself-forgiveness.
Yeah, I think it's also part oflooking at it really bluntly
and saying this is what happened.
I wish this hadn't happened.
I was stupid here, and there's alot in the book, as you know,
of me berating myself.
Yes, but I was always lookingfor freedom.
So I think I understand myselfand I'm so lucky that as my
(33:36):
children got older, when I mighthave got into some really bad
habits and maybe started hidingthe booze, and when the twins
were young teenagers, I stoppedand stayed, stopped through the
wonderful sober community andthen wrote this story, which has
helped me stay stopped as well,undoubtedly.
(33:57):
But it's also helped me forgivemyself and see that big picture
and just think it's almost likeI've written it down.
That was then and this is menow.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, you know yeah, what's in the pipeline for you
now?
So?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I have written the worst messy first draft.
I'm sure it's the worst.
I mean, everybody says theirfirst drafts are terrible, but
this one's really terrible.
It's a novel and it's aboutswimming and older age.
Oh, that's good.
Yes love it.
My massive ambition is to writesomething set in Scotland that
is about drinking, but I think Ihave to practice first and I'm
(34:32):
really, really keen to work withpeople who want to write,
because I think that it's I doit already and I um, and it's
I'd love to do more of thatbecause it's so rewarding.
You know, as you will know,that from coaching, you know
rewarding yeah so rewarding umand help people um.
I think when you're writing aswell, you need a lot of
(34:52):
emotional support.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I think, with these big moments in your life that
have really impacted yournervous system, the way your
belief systems, you'reuntangling yourself a little.
That support is needed Now.
Dear listeners, this book isjust a beautiful read.
It's moving, inspiring, andthere's a bit of laughter, a few
(35:15):
tears, but it really is one ofthose life-changing books.
It would just I'd put it upthere on that quit lit list, but
also as a gift, or for yourselfif you wanted a summer read
Shauna, where's the place thatpeople can go to to listen on
(35:38):
Audible, that's one spot or justto buy it.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well, it should be anywhere.
I mean, with a book that's notlike a huge bestseller.
It might not be in everybookshop.
It should be in Big W, though,and I have to say it's better to
buy it.
It's cheaper in Big W or onAmazon, because Amazon seems to
constantly have it at a cheaperrate.
But of course, your localbookshop can.
(36:02):
If they don't actually havecopies in stock, they can order
in.
Bigger shops like Demyx willhave it.
Then it's available onaudiobook.
It's also at your library, so alot of libraries have got it
and library apps have got it.
And then people are loving theaudible.
I think Australians just love aScottish accent you know, yeah,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I'm a Ferguson, there's some.
There's a Scottish heritage.
I love the.
Your voice, yeah, and thestories, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
That's how I listen in the car yeah, well, I love, I
love Audible too, and I.
It was a big deal reading itout, like it was quite emotional
, oh yeah, and have a cry, but Ifelt very proud of it.
So I know people have enjoyedthat and I think it's also
available to listen to onlibrary apps as well Fantastic,
so it should be available toeverybody.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And you might give me some links as well, shauna,
that I can honk in the shownotes.
Thank you, it was such adelight meeting you.
It's lovely to meet youface-to-face as well.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I know Really cool, you're welcome.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com