July 16, 2021 • 29 mins
In this weeks episode we talk with Innovate UK's Director of Health & Life Sciences, Richard Hebdon. Innovate UK is part of the UK Research and Innovation and helps businesses develop new products, services, and processes needed in order to grow through innovation.
Richard leads and manage the Innovate UK Health & Life Sciences Sector comprising health, agriculture and food with a combined current portfolio valued at £685 million, with a historic investment of £1.8 billion.
Prior to joining Innovate UK, he worked in technology transfer, R&D management and research and innovation roles in industry and the public sector. This included working in pharmaceutical and vaccine discovery where his original technical background was in microbiology.
A link to the 2021 Biomedical Catalyst 2021 that we discussed with Richard can be found here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard (00:00):
To change the thinking, you know how we think about
(00:02):
child health innovation,embedding it in, you know, the
early stage design and thinkingwhether it be discovering and
developing new pharmaceuticalproduct, or a medical device,
but embedding that thinking fromfrom the outset, because I think
that's going to lead to the bestinnovations and the best
products and services and createmore choice for paediatricians
(00:24):
for clinicians, to enable themto tender to the health needs of
children, and to have thosetools available. But it's got to
start I think, with that childpatient centred thinking. So if
we do nothing else, aside fromset that particular ball
rolling, I think we'll haveachieved a lot.
David (00:49):
Welcome back to The not mini adults podcast pioneers for
children's health care andwellbeing. My name is David
Cole. And once again, I'm joinedby my wife, Hannah. And together
we are the co founders of UKchildren's charity, thinking of
Oscar. At thinking of Oscar ouraim is to bring the future of
health care to children. This isEpisode Five of the third season
of the not mini adults podcast.
And before we meet our guesttoday, we just wanted to say a
(01:11):
massive thank you to all of ourlisteners. This week, we
surpassed over 3000 totaldownloads for the podcast. And
we have also had a download inevery continent on the planet,
which is just astonishing, giventhat we just started this during
lockdown last year, really witha view to educating ourselves
and hopefully trying to inspiresome of you to want to do more
(01:32):
in child health. On this weekpodcast we are delighted to
welcome the director of healthand life sciences at innovate UK
Richard Hebden innovate UK ispart of UK research and
innovation, and helps businessesdevelop new products, services
and processes needed in order togrow through innovation. Richard
leads and manages the InnovateUK health and life sciences
(01:52):
sector comprising health,agriculture and food, with a
combined current portfoliovalued at 685 million pounds
with a historic investment of1.8 billion pounds. Prior to
joining innovate UK, Richardworked in technology transfer,
r&d management and research andinnovation roles in industry in
the public sector. This includedworking in pharmaceutical and
(02:14):
vaccine discovery, where hisoriginal technical background
was in microbiology. Wediscussed with Richard what
innovate UK are looking to do totry and increase investment into
child health. And also get anunderstanding as to some of the
support that they can give fornew startups, who may be looking
for support at the beginning oftheir journey. Richard, Hi,
thank you so much for joining uson the not many adults podcast.
(02:39):
Hi, David. Hi, Hannah, great tomeet you. You know, it's
fantastic to have you with us.
And this is you know, one of ourkind of, I guess, pet topics pet
subjects terming talking aboutfunding and innovation within
paediatric healthcare and how wecan do more. And so we're really
really interested about whatyou're doing within innovate UK
(03:01):
and your role and, and howyou're actually learning to do
more from a child healthperspective. But maybe if we
could just kick off by we'llhave hopefully listeners kind of
all over the world. So if youcould just talk a little bit
about your role, Richard, andbriefly and just innovate UK and
then I think that will set us upfor some of the questions that
we've got, please.
Richard (03:21):
Yeah, sure thing. So I'm director of health and life
sciences for Innovate UK, andthat covers healthcare, but
also agriculture and food aswell. For those of you who might
might not be familiar withInnovate UK, we are the UK
innovation agency. Since 2018.
We've been part of UK Researchand Innovation alongside the
(03:42):
Research Council's like theMedical Research Council, BBSRC,
EPSRC, and so forth. Our role isto fund and support industry led
innovation. And we effectivelywe do it in three ways. We fund,
we connect and we collaborate.
So we fund through our variousfunding mechanisms through
(04:03):
grants, and also innovationloans. We connect through our
sister organisation, the KTN,the knowledge transfer network,
but also through our newinnovate UK edge team which
helps provide business supportand growth advice to businesses.
And then we also collaboratethrough our networks of
catapults and centres. So wehave to catapult centres in the
(04:26):
health space, the cell and genetherapy catapult in London in
Stevenage, and the medicinesdiscovery catapult or Green
Park. But then we have othercounterparts that work in the
health space too, like theCentre for process innovation in
T side which is part of thewider high value manufacturing
catapult. So we work withbusinesses in a variety of ways.
(04:48):
Obviously, my remit includeshealthcare, and healthcare
businesses. And since 2004,we've invested in the order back
just over 1.2 billion in healthcare innovation. In the UK, not
that close all our investmentsin catapults and centres or our
capital investments, and also inall our programmes and
programmatic r&d funding,industrial strategy, challenge
(05:10):
fund, and so forth. So it'squite a quite a significant
level of investment.
Hannah (05:15):
Thank you. And then, of course, our interest in having a
conversation with you today wasto understand your interest in
perspective on the level ofinvestment in child health and
where you'd like to take that.
So I know when we were preparingfor a conversation with you
previously, we started talkingabout where you're going, but
it'd be great to have anunderstanding of the story so
(05:35):
far.
Richard (05:37):
Yeah, sure. So we undertook an analysis early in
2020, to look at gaps in ourportfolio in areas in healthcare
innovation, which is notinvested in or not, not invested
in very much, up and comingareas, which we need to be
tracking for the future. And oneof those was was in the child
(05:59):
health innovation space. So wedid an analysis of all of the
projects we'd funded, goingright back to 2004, when
actually before Innovate, UKexisted. And we found there are
199 projects, which we couldidentify in the child health and
paediatric space, representinginvestment, total investment of
about 31 million pounds.
Obviously, that does not includeinnovations, which are age
(06:24):
agnostic. So some innovationobviously, will work for
everybody. But we thought thatwas actually quite a small
number. And I think when youlook at start looking into this
area, and you start lookingwhat's happened globally, in the
public and private sectors,actually, I think Child Health
innovation is has been underinvested in, and that's led to,
you know, a paucity ofpaediatric products and services
(06:48):
out there and technologies thatclinicians can use, and a lack
of choice, particularly areaslike medical medical devices.
And there's a whole host ofreasons why, you know,
businesses are not necessarilyinvested in in that space, it's
not seen as an area thatproduces a high return compared
to a lot of adult health care,products and services. The
regulatory pathways can seemquite complex, quite daunting.
(07:09):
There are obviously ethicalissues around how you approach
you know, for example, doingclinical trials with babies and
young children, and a lot of,you know, commercial risks in
that space, too. So it's, Ithink, historically not been
seen as an attractive area toinvest in. But I think, from
Innovate UK perspective, youknow, our role is really to try
(07:29):
and de risk earlier stageinnovation, to enable that fall
on private investment and forcompanies to be able to, you
know, move along that pathway todevelopment of new new
healthcare products andservices. So I think that it's
actually an area we should focusa bit more on in future and look
at making innovationinvestments, both sort of
(07:51):
project level in terms ofprogrammatic r&d support, but
also in capital infrastructure,as well, for the UK to enable
businesses to work withclinicians, researchers,
innovators, and you know,accelerate the development of
paediatric innovation.
Hannah (08:08):
And you talked about some of the difficulties because
of this relatively small size ofthe market for some of their
paediatric opportunities, thenit's difficult for some startup
organisations or commercialorganisations to take their idea
to market. Can you describe someof the barriers or kind of pinch
(08:28):
points for where they run intodifficulties? And a little more
detail, please?
Richard (08:33):
Yes, I think, obviously, there are a number of
valleys of death for innovationand for companies, you know,
wanting to take care take thingsforward to market, I think, you
know, early stage companies canstruggle to raise seed funding,
even for this kind of activity.
But there are funding gaps allthe way through, you know, to
series A Series B funding andalso scale up, you know, once
you've done all the hard work ofdeveloping your innovation,
(08:56):
proving that it's safe andeffective, you know, and you
then decided you want to startscaling up and manufacturing,
there's obviously then how youhow you raise the finance to be
able to do that. So I thinkthere's funding gaps all the way
through, we see that a lot inother areas of healthcare
innovation too, it's notpeculiar to, to child health
innovation, but it isparticularly acute in this area.
And we think principally aboutthe health tech sector, those
(09:20):
medical devices and digitalhealth. In the UK, there are
depending on who's estimatesyou find the most credible,
anywhere between sort of 3000and 4000 businesses engaged in
the business of health tech. And99% of those are our small and
medium sized enterprises SMEs,and they often struggle to
(09:44):
understand and engage with theregulatory process for their
products. It's quite complex anddifficult to navigate and even
more so from a child healthpoint of view. And I think as I
mentioned earlier, there arealso commercial risks. Going
into the paediatric space andalso ethical issues around the
conduct of clinical trials andso forth. So companies face a
(10:04):
number a number of challenges.
And I think help in support isprobably required quite broadly,
not not just in terms offunding, but also connecting,
and enabling access forbusinesses to the right kinds of
support resources andinfrastructure, to help them to
move their innovation forward.
Hannah (10:25):
He started kind of looking to the future there and
talking about some areas thatwe'd really love to understand
some more, I guess, for me, onthe one hand, you describe the
situation and we recognise it aswell, from what we've learned
over the last few years ofthinking of Oscar as well, that
the various barriers to entrythat you describe, on the one
hand, and then on the otherhand, David had introduced me to
(10:46):
a paper that he stumbled uponthis week. And it's supported by
the Royal Foundation, and it'spublished by the centre of early
childhood, and the premise ofthe work there is looking at the
opportunity cost of notaddressing early childhood
challenges. And so apart from itbeing the right thing to do to
give children in their earlyyears, the best possible start,
(11:08):
the impact of not doing that,issues may be health related, or
to do with general wellbeing. Sothere's ramifications that from
a health point of view, but thenalso from an economic point of
view, and even talking say, inthe press at the moment about
the impact of children missingout on, the one article this
morning was something like 45out of 190 something days
(11:30):
possible learning this wassecondary school children, but
similar will be primary schoolage. So so the economic cost to
nations of having these gaps inthe early stages of life, you
know, it has a lasting effect.
So whilst it's so clear thatit's the right thing to do, and
a necessary thing to do andthere will be greater collective
wealth and well being byaddressing it, it feels like
(11:52):
there's a chasm to cross. Sowhat are your thoughts about the
future that feels achievable?
And that goes beyond a visions,tangible things that and it
doesn't all need to fall toInnovate UK, but but I'm sure
you have a perspective.
Richard (12:07):
Yeah, well, I'm kind of glad it doesn't all fall to
Innovate UK, we are we are butone small part of government of
the public sector, but we youknow, we try and do our bit and
punch above our weight. So Ithink, yeah, I mean, there's
some things we can we canprobably do in the near term and
kinds of the business supportand growth activities that we
assist companies with throughour innovate UK edge team.
(12:29):
There's probably somesignposting and connecting work
we can do as a set on theregulatory side to help
companies navigate these complexregulatory pathways. I think as
we move forward, you know, weneed to think about, you know,
how to direct fundingmechanisms. So the moment we
have support, through grants,grant funding opportunities like
(12:49):
the biomedical catalyst, whichis currently open to healthcare
businesses, and we're open toearly and late stage project
applications at the moment, socompanies can come to us and
apply for those for grants fromfrom 250 000, up to 4 million in
value. There's obviously oursmart funding competition as
(13:10):
well. And we also offer ad hocopportunities through the year
in the in the health space aswell. So through things, for
example, like SPRI the smallbusiness Research Initiative. So
I think, you know, movingforward, it's how we create the
right environment, the rightecosystem in the UK, for Child
Health innovation. And I thinkthat, as I said earlier, it's a
(13:31):
combination of funding ofsupport, of investment in
innovation infrastructure, youknow, where we can enable
companies to access the rightfacilities, expertise,
equipment, you know, to be ableto develop and take their
innovations forward. But I thinkmore broadly, yeah, there are
(13:51):
things that wider government cancan look at, you know, for
example, department health andsocial care, perhaps needs to
think about, you know, theprioritisation of child health
in their agenda. And I'm surethat is something that's being
being considered, particularlyas part of the support in health
post COVID-19. I thinkgovernment is very aware of the
(14:11):
impact that, for example, themental health of young children
on their development andeducational needs. So I think
there are some wider governmentstrategies and thinking that can
be brought to bear here as well.
David (14:22):
And I think it's got, as I said, I've been doing quite a
lot of reading around thisrecently. And it's got to be
government led, I think, fromwherever you are in the world,
the government, you know, if youthink about all the innovations,
or many, many of the innovationsthat we just take for granted in
our day to day lives, they haveone way or another come from a
government led initiative. TheiPhone or you know, smartphone
(14:43):
is probably the best example ofthat, everything within it
pretty much has come from oneway or another, the US
government or a governmentaround the world paying for
those kind of technologies to beto be founded and they to finish
off kind of what Hannah wassaying in terms of the Royal
Foundation, the Centre for earlychildhood. There was a statistic
that they brought in which we Ithink, you know, Richard, you
and I've talked about a lot withwith colleagues as well, there
(15:05):
was a statistic there that saidbetween zero and five, if a lot
of these, you know, adversitiescontinue, the overall figure per
annum is around 16 billion to anation. So that in itself, you
know, should hopefully get getsomeone's attention to, you
know, innovate and start to lookat how we can actually prevent
childhood disease and be doingmore, and it's great to hear
(15:28):
that, you know, that's, that'sone of the initiatives that you
guys have picked up on.
Richard (15:32):
Yeah, definitely. I think I mean, we're innovate UK,
we're part of the party UK,which is part of the Department
for business, energy andindustrial strategy. So our
focus is primarily aroundeconomic growth. And, you know,
making the UK a world leader inparticular industry sectors. But
I think, you know, where we'vegot a sweet spot of, you know,
(15:54):
economic opportunity and theopportunity to make societal
impact. And, you know, I thinkwe do need to be taking these
opportunities in child healthdoes does offer that you
interviewed John Parker fromSpringhood ventures recently in
Boston, I think he made a verygood point that, you know, the
Net Present Value Investing a $1in children is worth more than
than any other intervention atany other stage of the life
(16:16):
course. So, I think that, youknow, when we're thinking about
economic impacts, we do need to,we do need to think about that
as well,
Hannah (16:24):
The practical benefit of what you do, in terms of
injecting funds intoinitiatives, in order to give
them the chance to get off theground in the first place is
very clear. I'm also reallyinterested in the kind of
practical help that folk needbecause whether we're talking
about health care or not, if youlook at a startup, having an
(16:45):
idea is good, or we've beentaught as well about investments
in research, you can haveconcepts and ideas about how
you'd like to make change. Butimplementing that practically
and at scale and sustainably isso much trickier. You know, so
what role are you able to playin not only getting ideas off
(17:06):
the ground, but then helpingthese organisations to kick the
ideas off the ground and grow toa size that then achieves their
market reach that, that enablesit to make sense as a commercial
organisation.
Richard (17:17):
So I think I mean, we are obviously still developing
our offer in terms of supportfor businesses all the way
through the business lifecycleat the moment, you know,
predominant focus is on theearliest stages of innovation,
you know, getting gettingcompanies to the point that, you
know, they can raise investmentor indeed co investing with
investors, through ourinvestment partnership schemes,
(17:40):
and getting the maximum valuefor, you know, for public grant
for public investment, and theninvesting in the later stage
areas like loans, which are farmore near market innovation. And
we do, we do make innovationloans to companies in the med
tech and digital health space inparticular. So ensuring that
there is a continuum of finance,able to support businesses that
(18:02):
are doing innovative things allthe way all the way through. But
you know, we're still continuingto, to evolve and adapt. And
also looking at how we work withorganisations, for example, like
the British business bank, withthe private investment community
with whom, you know, we'd liketo forge closer partnerships and
a closer alliance going forward.
And also with bodies like themedical research charities who
(18:23):
you know, increasingly areinterested in investing in
innovation to realise patientbenefits for the causes and
objectives that they all have.
David (18:34):
So for anybody that is, you know, there may be
listening, that's actuallythinking about trying to come up
with a solution to an unmetneed, or has indeed already
started. What advice could yougive them a what, and where
could they go in terms of, youknow, first port of call with
with yourself or someone withinthe structure that you that you
described?
Richard (18:53):
Well, they can contact Innovate UK on our customer
service support, either viaemail or telephone number, which
is on the Innovate uk website,or they can contact the ktn, the
knowledge transfer network, andthey can help provide advice on
you know, the kinds of publicfunds that are available,
obviously, we're not not theonly public funder. And it may
(19:14):
be that actually, you know, ifyou're very early stage, perhaps
university or academic researchbased individual, you know,
there might be other forms offunding a more appropriate for
the work you're doing to helptranslate that work into
something that's kind of readyto then put on the
commercialization trajectory.
And then of course, you know,there will be people scattered
through the universities andresearch base that are there to
(19:35):
also provide local help andsupport and advice as the local
enterprise partnerships theLeps, which you can also provide
advice to to startups in theirin their regions, looking to set
up shop and the various forms ofgrants and support available to
local level. So there's a widerange of support out there. I
think the difficulty can benavigating or finding your way
(19:57):
around. And that's why it's goodto have conversation with
experts like our colleagues atthe ktn, for example,
David (20:05):
You mentioned earlier about the biomedical catalyst
that I think you've had goingfor a while. Can you just talk a
little bit about, about whatthat is and you know, how
someone might qualify as it werefor, for support through that?
Richard (20:17):
Yes, so the biomedical catalyst is aimed at companies
with early stage innovation whoare looking to take forward
their technologies that productsor services to the clinic, and
we invest at various stages,either in feasibility or primary
projects, as we call them forearly stage, pre commercial
(20:40):
innovation development. And thenthe early and late stage
projects, which tend to belonger term, typically up to
three years. And that enablescompanies to take for example,
products into clinical trials.
It's open to any healthcarebusiness, it's healthcare
technology agnostic. So if youryour innovation is in
healthcare, whether you're amedical device, or developing a
(21:02):
medical device, or digitalhealth app, or a new
therapeutic, you know, thebiomedical catalyst is for you.
This year, we have 30 millionpounds available, we currently
have an open call for early andlate stage projects. So and
these would typically be fromprojects from 250,000, up to 4
million in value. And we wouldtake your your applications as
(21:27):
an online application process.
If you've not worked withinnovate UK before you can get
some help and advice on this. Sofor example, our colleagues at
the KTN will review applicationsfor you and give you give me
some feedback. When you submityour application, it then comes
to us and we assign fiveexternal assessors to review
(21:49):
your application. And these willbe people with particular
expertise and knowledge in yourinnovation area. And then for
the high scoring applications,we then take those forward to
two major awards committees,which will convene in the
autumn. And we will then invitethe high scoring applications to
come forward and present theirprojects to the to the major
(22:11):
awards committees, who will thenyou know, ask questions of the
team. And then deliberate cometo view on which ones they
recommend for funding, we willthen contact those companies and
let them know if they've beensuccessful. And we will be
looking forward for projects tostart in April 2022. So that's,
(22:32):
that's kind of where we are inthe biomedical catalyst. Now
it's been going since 2012.
We've invested heavily acrossthe UK, health innovation
landscape in everything fromadvanced therapies to precision
medicine, and whole whole rangeof exciting innovation that's
come out of that, and pulled inexternal funding, private
funding, and generated, youknow, very good return for the
(22:54):
UK taxpayer. And if you want tolearn more about that, we did a
review of the biomedicalcatalyst in 2019, which we
commissioned independentlythrough Ipsos Mori, that will
give you all the stats andfigures, but we think it's a
proven route for deliveringinnovation funding in the
healthcare innovation space. Anddefinitely, if you're in
paediatric innovation, andyou're in a business, or perhaps
(23:16):
you're a clinician or anacademic working with a
business, and you want to do acollaborative r&d project, have
that conversation and take alook and see if the biomedical
catalyst is for you.
Hannah (23:27):
Thank you. Another area that we were interested in
getting your perspective on waswhere you get your ideas from.
So the problem is that we'retalking about addressing in the
UK will be very similar acrossthe globe. And so do you have
connections with people in otherparts of the world? Or who do
you look for for inspiration oras a source of a good idea or
(23:49):
just put two three approachestogether?
Richard (23:52):
So Well, we work with organisations from from all
around the world. So we do runglobal missions as well. So to
give global expert missions inselected areas, where we think
the UK has a particular strengthand where we think there are
things to learn from undertakinga mission to another country. So
we've undertaken digital healthmissions, for example, to South
(24:16):
Korea, and also done work in thedigital health space with Texas.
And also undertaking othermissions in precision medicine
and advanced therapy. So othercountries around the world where
we think there's there's a lotfor particular UK businesses to
learn and for them to engagewith local infrastructures in
country and also understandlocal markets. So for example,
(24:38):
in Texas, or the US, you know,how pricing and reimbursement
models work over there andtherefore, you know, how you do
business planning to launch intothe US market. So it gives us,
you know businesses theopportunity to do that. And we
also work closely withDepartment for International
Trade and other parts of the UK,Foreign and Commonwealth
(24:59):
development office. And we withour embassies and consulates
overseas, to identifyopportunities to work on, you
know, bilateral activities aswell. So we do have quite an
extensive international networkof research organisations, and
government innovation agenciesas well. And we do we do speak
to them and share informationand ideas.
David (25:20):
I think, you know, all of what we've discussed is
fantastic in terms of, you know,opportunities for people to come
forward with ideas, and just thefact that, you know, you're,
you're looking to do more, whatdoes success look like? Where
would you like to get to,already invested kind of 31
million in child health, whichis great, but we know there's ho
efully a long way to go, whewe start to unpack some of the
(25:42):
igures that are starting to comout in terms of the, you k
ow, you talk about economic impat on and societal impact, we
can drill down and start to lok at childhood illness,
nd what that actually the long trm impact both from a societa
and economic perspectiv, so what will what would suc
ess, you know, look like, anwhat, what are the timeframes
hat you would like to kindf look at from that point of
(26:03):
iew?
Richard (26:05):
So, yeah, I mean, we generally try and think long
term, but I think, within thenext 10 years or so, for us to
get to a place where we've got athriving industry sector in this
space, where the UK is a worldleader, which I think
potentially it has, has theopportunity to take that
position, where we have, youknow, a thriving research
(26:26):
innovation ecosystem that canprovide the pipeline of
innovation, in child health, inareas like health tech, in
particular, and where, you know,we've helped, you know, done a
bit to kind of change theculture and philosophy of how
companies and businessesapproach child health. So, you
know, as in keeping with thetheme of this podcast, not mini
(26:47):
adults, you know, how do we helpbuild a child centred thinking
around the design of new, youknow, medical device products,
for example, as such that, youknow, we're not doing kind of
adult healthcare innovation, andthen producing cut down versions
of, of that for, you know, forchildren and babies, which is,
you know, not got us to a goodplace, historically. So, I
(27:09):
think, I would hope that we willhave done our bit to help change
that and help businesses be ableto access the tools, resources,
facilities, funding, and supportthat they need to be able to
take those those innovationsforward and do it in a way
which, you know, deliverseconomic impact. So you know,
company growth, jobs andhopefully increased flow of
(27:30):
revenue to the Exchequer goingforward.
David (27:33):
Richard, thank you, what we have discussed in the public
has been so important. And as wesaid, it's one of the ones that
we I'm not sure enjoy is theright word, because it would be
great to talk about, you know,all the successes that we've
done, and everything that you'vejust described in it, but but
certainly being able to shareand, and hopefully, someone will
be listening, and they will beon the innovate uk website and
(27:56):
thinking about that, you know,biomedical catalyst or whatever
it might be. The question thatwe, that we end each podcast
with is, if you could changeanything within child health,
what would it be?
Richard (28:07):
Gosh, well, I think it would be as per my, you know, my
last comments, to change thethinking, you know, how we think
about child health innovation,embedding it in, you know, the
early stage design and thinkingwhether it be discovering and
developing new pharmaceuticalproduct or a medical device, but
you know, embedding thatthinking from from the outset,
(28:28):
because I think that's going tolead to the best innovations,
the best products and servicesand create more choice for
paediatricians for clinicians,to enable them to tender to the
health needs of children and tohave those tools available. But
it's got to start I think, withthat child patient centred
(28:48):
thinking. So you know, if we donothing else, aside from set
that that particular ballrolling, I think we'll have
achieved a lot.
Hannah (28:56):
They should thank you very much indeed for joining us
on there not many adults podcasttoday. It's been a really
interesting conversation. Thankyou, likewise, and a pleasure.
Thank you very much.
David (29:08):
Thank you so much to Richard for joining us on this
week's not mini adults podcast.
As many of you that havelistened to us before will know.
Funding is a big passion areafor us. And over the course of
the rest of this season and intothe next season on the podcast,
we will continue to have guestsdiscussing the importance of
funding and support for ChildHealth. Over the coming weeks.
(29:29):
We are really excited about someof the guests that we will have
joining us on the podcast. So inorder to find out who they might
be, please join us next time.
Please do subscribe to thepodcast. And if you're enjoying
it, please do leave us a reviewas well. We hope you'll join us
again next week.
To change the thinking, you know how we think about
(00:02):
child health innovation,embedding it in, you know, the
early stage design and thinkingwhether it be discovering and
developing new pharmaceuticalproduct, or a medical device,
but embedding that thinking fromfrom the outset, because I think
that's going to lead to the bestinnovations and the best
products and services and createmore choice for paediatricians
(00:24):
for clinicians, to enable themto tender to the health needs of
children, and to have thosetools available. But it's got to
start I think, with that childpatient centred thinking. So if
we do nothing else, aside fromset that particular ball
rolling, I think we'll haveachieved a lot.
David (00:49):
Welcome back to The not mini adults podcast pioneers for
children's health care andwellbeing. My name is David
Cole. And once again, I'm joinedby my wife, Hannah. And together
we are the co founders of UKchildren's charity, thinking of
Oscar. At thinking of Oscar ouraim is to bring the future of
health care to children. This isEpisode Five of the third season
of the not mini adults podcast.
And before we meet our guesttoday, we just wanted to say a
(01:11):
massive thank you to all of ourlisteners. This week, we
surpassed over 3000 totaldownloads for the podcast. And
we have also had a download inevery continent on the planet,
which is just astonishing, giventhat we just started this during
lockdown last year, really witha view to educating ourselves
and hopefully trying to inspiresome of you to want to do more
(01:32):
in child health. On this weekpodcast we are delighted to
welcome the director of healthand life sciences at innovate UK
Richard Hebden innovate UK ispart of UK research and
innovation, and helps businessesdevelop new products, services
and processes needed in order togrow through innovation. Richard
leads and manages the InnovateUK health and life sciences
(01:52):
sector comprising health,agriculture and food, with a
combined current portfoliovalued at 685 million pounds
with a historic investment of1.8 billion pounds. Prior to
joining innovate UK, Richardworked in technology transfer,
r&d management and research andinnovation roles in industry in
the public sector. This includedworking in pharmaceutical and
(02:14):
vaccine discovery, where hisoriginal technical background
was in microbiology. Wediscussed with Richard what
innovate UK are looking to do totry and increase investment into
child health. And also get anunderstanding as to some of the
support that they can give fornew startups, who may be looking
for support at the beginning oftheir journey. Richard, Hi,
thank you so much for joining uson the not many adults podcast.
(02:39):
Hi, David. Hi, Hannah, great tomeet you. You know, it's
fantastic to have you with us.
And this is you know, one of ourkind of, I guess, pet topics pet
subjects terming talking aboutfunding and innovation within
paediatric healthcare and how wecan do more. And so we're really
really interested about whatyou're doing within innovate UK
(03:01):
and your role and, and howyou're actually learning to do
more from a child healthperspective. But maybe if we
could just kick off by we'llhave hopefully listeners kind of
all over the world. So if youcould just talk a little bit
about your role, Richard, andbriefly and just innovate UK and
then I think that will set us upfor some of the questions that
we've got, please.
Richard (03:21):
Yeah, sure thing. So I'm director of health and life
sciences for Innovate UK, andthat covers healthcare, but
also agriculture and food aswell. For those of you who might
might not be familiar withInnovate UK, we are the UK
innovation agency. Since 2018.
We've been part of UK Researchand Innovation alongside the
(03:42):
Research Council's like theMedical Research Council, BBSRC,
EPSRC, and so forth. Our role isto fund and support industry led
innovation. And we effectivelywe do it in three ways. We fund,
we connect and we collaborate.
So we fund through our variousfunding mechanisms through
(04:03):
grants, and also innovationloans. We connect through our
sister organisation, the KTN,the knowledge transfer network,
but also through our newinnovate UK edge team which
helps provide business supportand growth advice to businesses.
And then we also collaboratethrough our networks of
catapults and centres. So wehave to catapult centres in the
(04:26):
health space, the cell and genetherapy catapult in London in
Stevenage, and the medicinesdiscovery catapult or Green
Park. But then we have othercounterparts that work in the
health space too, like theCentre for process innovation in
T side which is part of thewider high value manufacturing
catapult. So we work withbusinesses in a variety of ways.
(04:48):
Obviously, my remit includeshealthcare, and healthcare
businesses. And since 2004,we've invested in the order back
just over 1.2 billion in healthcare innovation. In the UK, not
that close all our investmentsin catapults and centres or our
capital investments, and also inall our programmes and
programmatic r&d funding,industrial strategy, challenge
(05:10):
fund, and so forth. So it'squite a quite a significant
level of investment.
Hannah (05:15):
Thank you. And then, of course, our interest in having a
conversation with you today wasto understand your interest in
perspective on the level ofinvestment in child health and
where you'd like to take that.
So I know when we were preparingfor a conversation with you
previously, we started talkingabout where you're going, but
it'd be great to have anunderstanding of the story so
(05:35):
far.
Richard (05:37):
Yeah, sure. So we undertook an analysis early in
2020, to look at gaps in ourportfolio in areas in healthcare
innovation, which is notinvested in or not, not invested
in very much, up and comingareas, which we need to be
tracking for the future. And oneof those was was in the child
(05:59):
health innovation space. So wedid an analysis of all of the
projects we'd funded, goingright back to 2004, when
actually before Innovate, UKexisted. And we found there are
199 projects, which we couldidentify in the child health and
paediatric space, representinginvestment, total investment of
about 31 million pounds.
Obviously, that does not includeinnovations, which are age
(06:24):
agnostic. So some innovationobviously, will work for
everybody. But we thought thatwas actually quite a small
number. And I think when youlook at start looking into this
area, and you start lookingwhat's happened globally, in the
public and private sectors,actually, I think Child Health
innovation is has been underinvested in, and that's led to,
you know, a paucity ofpaediatric products and services
(06:48):
out there and technologies thatclinicians can use, and a lack
of choice, particularly areaslike medical medical devices.
And there's a whole host ofreasons why, you know,
businesses are not necessarilyinvested in in that space, it's
not seen as an area thatproduces a high return compared
to a lot of adult health care,products and services. The
regulatory pathways can seemquite complex, quite daunting.
(07:09):
There are obviously ethicalissues around how you approach
you know, for example, doingclinical trials with babies and
young children, and a lot of,you know, commercial risks in
that space, too. So it's, Ithink, historically not been
seen as an attractive area toinvest in. But I think, from
Innovate UK perspective, youknow, our role is really to try
(07:29):
and de risk earlier stageinnovation, to enable that fall
on private investment and forcompanies to be able to, you
know, move along that pathway todevelopment of new new
healthcare products andservices. So I think that it's
actually an area we should focusa bit more on in future and look
at making innovationinvestments, both sort of
(07:51):
project level in terms ofprogrammatic r&d support, but
also in capital infrastructure,as well, for the UK to enable
businesses to work withclinicians, researchers,
innovators, and you know,accelerate the development of
paediatric innovation.
Hannah (08:08):
And you talked about some of the difficulties because
of this relatively small size ofthe market for some of their
paediatric opportunities, thenit's difficult for some startup
organisations or commercialorganisations to take their idea
to market. Can you describe someof the barriers or kind of pinch
(08:28):
points for where they run intodifficulties? And a little more
detail, please?
Richard (08:33):
Yes, I think, obviously, there are a number of
valleys of death for innovationand for companies, you know,
wanting to take care take thingsforward to market, I think, you
know, early stage companies canstruggle to raise seed funding,
even for this kind of activity.
But there are funding gaps allthe way through, you know, to
series A Series B funding andalso scale up, you know, once
you've done all the hard work ofdeveloping your innovation,
(08:56):
proving that it's safe andeffective, you know, and you
then decided you want to startscaling up and manufacturing,
there's obviously then how youhow you raise the finance to be
able to do that. So I thinkthere's funding gaps all the way
through, we see that a lot inother areas of healthcare
innovation too, it's notpeculiar to, to child health
innovation, but it isparticularly acute in this area.
And we think principally aboutthe health tech sector, those
(09:20):
medical devices and digitalhealth. In the UK, there are
depending on who's estimatesyou find the most credible,
anywhere between sort of 3000and 4000 businesses engaged in
the business of health tech. And99% of those are our small and
medium sized enterprises SMEs,and they often struggle to
(09:44):
understand and engage with theregulatory process for their
products. It's quite complex anddifficult to navigate and even
more so from a child healthpoint of view. And I think as I
mentioned earlier, there arealso commercial risks. Going
into the paediatric space andalso ethical issues around the
conduct of clinical trials andso forth. So companies face a
(10:04):
number a number of challenges.
And I think help in support isprobably required quite broadly,
not not just in terms offunding, but also connecting,
and enabling access forbusinesses to the right kinds of
support resources andinfrastructure, to help them to
move their innovation forward.
Hannah (10:25):
He started kind of looking to the future there and
talking about some areas thatwe'd really love to understand
some more, I guess, for me, onthe one hand, you describe the
situation and we recognise it aswell, from what we've learned
over the last few years ofthinking of Oscar as well, that
the various barriers to entrythat you describe, on the one
hand, and then on the otherhand, David had introduced me to
(10:46):
a paper that he stumbled uponthis week. And it's supported by
the Royal Foundation, and it'spublished by the centre of early
childhood, and the premise ofthe work there is looking at the
opportunity cost of notaddressing early childhood
challenges. And so apart from itbeing the right thing to do to
give children in their earlyyears, the best possible start,
(11:08):
the impact of not doing that,issues may be health related, or
to do with general wellbeing. Sothere's ramifications that from
a health point of view, but thenalso from an economic point of
view, and even talking say, inthe press at the moment about
the impact of children missingout on, the one article this
morning was something like 45out of 190 something days
(11:30):
possible learning this wassecondary school children, but
similar will be primary schoolage. So so the economic cost to
nations of having these gaps inthe early stages of life, you
know, it has a lasting effect.
So whilst it's so clear thatit's the right thing to do, and
a necessary thing to do andthere will be greater collective
wealth and well being byaddressing it, it feels like
(11:52):
there's a chasm to cross. Sowhat are your thoughts about the
future that feels achievable?
And that goes beyond a visions,tangible things that and it
doesn't all need to fall toInnovate UK, but but I'm sure
you have a perspective.
Richard (12:07):
Yeah, well, I'm kind of glad it doesn't all fall to
Innovate UK, we are we are butone small part of government of
the public sector, but we youknow, we try and do our bit and
punch above our weight. So Ithink, yeah, I mean, there's
some things we can we canprobably do in the near term and
kinds of the business supportand growth activities that we
assist companies with throughour innovate UK edge team.
(12:29):
There's probably somesignposting and connecting work
we can do as a set on theregulatory side to help
companies navigate these complexregulatory pathways. I think as
we move forward, you know, weneed to think about, you know,
how to direct fundingmechanisms. So the moment we
have support, through grants,grant funding opportunities like
(12:49):
the biomedical catalyst, whichis currently open to healthcare
businesses, and we're open toearly and late stage project
applications at the moment, socompanies can come to us and
apply for those for grants fromfrom 250 000, up to 4 million in
value. There's obviously oursmart funding competition as
(13:10):
well. And we also offer ad hocopportunities through the year
in the in the health space aswell. So through things, for
example, like SPRI the smallbusiness Research Initiative. So
I think, you know, movingforward, it's how we create the
right environment, the rightecosystem in the UK, for Child
Health innovation. And I thinkthat, as I said earlier, it's a
(13:31):
combination of funding ofsupport, of investment in
innovation infrastructure, youknow, where we can enable
companies to access the rightfacilities, expertise,
equipment, you know, to be ableto develop and take their
innovations forward. But I thinkmore broadly, yeah, there are
(13:51):
things that wider government cancan look at, you know, for
example, department health andsocial care, perhaps needs to
think about, you know, theprioritisation of child health
in their agenda. And I'm surethat is something that's being
being considered, particularlyas part of the support in health
post COVID-19. I thinkgovernment is very aware of the
(14:11):
impact that, for example, themental health of young children
on their development andeducational needs. So I think
there are some wider governmentstrategies and thinking that can
be brought to bear here as well.
David (14:22):
And I think it's got, as I said, I've been doing quite a
lot of reading around thisrecently. And it's got to be
government led, I think, fromwherever you are in the world,
the government, you know, if youthink about all the innovations,
or many, many of the innovationsthat we just take for granted in
our day to day lives, they haveone way or another come from a
government led initiative. TheiPhone or you know, smartphone
(14:43):
is probably the best example ofthat, everything within it
pretty much has come from oneway or another, the US
government or a governmentaround the world paying for
those kind of technologies to beto be founded and they to finish
off kind of what Hannah wassaying in terms of the Royal
Foundation, the Centre for earlychildhood. There was a statistic
that they brought in which we Ithink, you know, Richard, you
and I've talked about a lot withwith colleagues as well, there
(15:05):
was a statistic there that saidbetween zero and five, if a lot
of these, you know, adversitiescontinue, the overall figure per
annum is around 16 billion to anation. So that in itself, you
know, should hopefully get getsomeone's attention to, you
know, innovate and start to lookat how we can actually prevent
childhood disease and be doingmore, and it's great to hear
(15:28):
that, you know, that's, that'sone of the initiatives that you
guys have picked up on.
Richard (15:32):
Yeah, definitely. I think I mean, we're innovate UK,
we're part of the party UK,which is part of the Department
for business, energy andindustrial strategy. So our
focus is primarily aroundeconomic growth. And, you know,
making the UK a world leader inparticular industry sectors. But
I think, you know, where we'vegot a sweet spot of, you know,
(15:54):
economic opportunity and theopportunity to make societal
impact. And, you know, I thinkwe do need to be taking these
opportunities in child healthdoes does offer that you
interviewed John Parker fromSpringhood ventures recently in
Boston, I think he made a verygood point that, you know, the
Net Present Value Investing a $1in children is worth more than
than any other intervention atany other stage of the life
(16:16):
course. So, I think that, youknow, when we're thinking about
economic impacts, we do need to,we do need to think about that
as well,
Hannah (16:24):
The practical benefit of what you do, in terms of
injecting funds intoinitiatives, in order to give
them the chance to get off theground in the first place is
very clear. I'm also reallyinterested in the kind of
practical help that folk needbecause whether we're talking
about health care or not, if youlook at a startup, having an
(16:45):
idea is good, or we've beentaught as well about investments
in research, you can haveconcepts and ideas about how
you'd like to make change. Butimplementing that practically
and at scale and sustainably isso much trickier. You know, so
what role are you able to playin not only getting ideas off
(17:06):
the ground, but then helpingthese organisations to kick the
ideas off the ground and grow toa size that then achieves their
market reach that, that enablesit to make sense as a commercial
organisation.
Richard (17:17):
So I think I mean, we are obviously still developing
our offer in terms of supportfor businesses all the way
through the business lifecycleat the moment, you know,
predominant focus is on theearliest stages of innovation,
you know, getting gettingcompanies to the point that, you
know, they can raise investmentor indeed co investing with
investors, through ourinvestment partnership schemes,
(17:40):
and getting the maximum valuefor, you know, for public grant
for public investment, and theninvesting in the later stage
areas like loans, which are farmore near market innovation. And
we do, we do make innovationloans to companies in the med
tech and digital health space inparticular. So ensuring that
there is a continuum of finance,able to support businesses that
(18:02):
are doing innovative things allthe way all the way through. But
you know, we're still continuingto, to evolve and adapt. And
also looking at how we work withorganisations, for example, like
the British business bank, withthe private investment community
with whom, you know, we'd liketo forge closer partnerships and
a closer alliance going forward.
And also with bodies like themedical research charities who
(18:23):
you know, increasingly areinterested in investing in
innovation to realise patientbenefits for the causes and
objectives that they all have.
David (18:34):
So for anybody that is, you know, there may be
listening, that's actuallythinking about trying to come up
with a solution to an unmetneed, or has indeed already
started. What advice could yougive them a what, and where
could they go in terms of, youknow, first port of call with
with yourself or someone withinthe structure that you that you
described?
Richard (18:53):
Well, they can contact Innovate UK on our customer
service support, either viaemail or telephone number, which
is on the Innovate uk website,or they can contact the ktn, the
knowledge transfer network, andthey can help provide advice on
you know, the kinds of publicfunds that are available,
obviously, we're not not theonly public funder. And it may
(19:14):
be that actually, you know, ifyou're very early stage, perhaps
university or academic researchbased individual, you know,
there might be other forms offunding a more appropriate for
the work you're doing to helptranslate that work into
something that's kind of readyto then put on the
commercialization trajectory.
And then of course, you know,there will be people scattered
through the universities andresearch base that are there to
(19:35):
also provide local help andsupport and advice as the local
enterprise partnerships theLeps, which you can also provide
advice to to startups in theirin their regions, looking to set
up shop and the various forms ofgrants and support available to
local level. So there's a widerange of support out there. I
think the difficulty can benavigating or finding your way
(19:57):
around. And that's why it's goodto have conversation with
experts like our colleagues atthe ktn, for example,
David (20:05):
You mentioned earlier about the biomedical catalyst
that I think you've had goingfor a while. Can you just talk a
little bit about, about whatthat is and you know, how
someone might qualify as it werefor, for support through that?
Richard (20:17):
Yes, so the biomedical catalyst is aimed at companies
with early stage innovation whoare looking to take forward
their technologies that productsor services to the clinic, and
we invest at various stages,either in feasibility or primary
projects, as we call them forearly stage, pre commercial
(20:40):
innovation development. And thenthe early and late stage
projects, which tend to belonger term, typically up to
three years. And that enablescompanies to take for example,
products into clinical trials.
It's open to any healthcarebusiness, it's healthcare
technology agnostic. So if youryour innovation is in
healthcare, whether you're amedical device, or developing a
(21:02):
medical device, or digitalhealth app, or a new
therapeutic, you know, thebiomedical catalyst is for you.
This year, we have 30 millionpounds available, we currently
have an open call for early andlate stage projects. So and
these would typically be fromprojects from 250,000, up to 4
million in value. And we wouldtake your your applications as
(21:27):
an online application process.
If you've not worked withinnovate UK before you can get
some help and advice on this. Sofor example, our colleagues at
the KTN will review applicationsfor you and give you give me
some feedback. When you submityour application, it then comes
to us and we assign fiveexternal assessors to review
(21:49):
your application. And these willbe people with particular
expertise and knowledge in yourinnovation area. And then for
the high scoring applications,we then take those forward to
two major awards committees,which will convene in the
autumn. And we will then invitethe high scoring applications to
come forward and present theirprojects to the to the major
(22:11):
awards committees, who will thenyou know, ask questions of the
team. And then deliberate cometo view on which ones they
recommend for funding, we willthen contact those companies and
let them know if they've beensuccessful. And we will be
looking forward for projects tostart in April 2022. So that's,
(22:32):
that's kind of where we are inthe biomedical catalyst. Now
it's been going since 2012.
We've invested heavily acrossthe UK, health innovation
landscape in everything fromadvanced therapies to precision
medicine, and whole whole rangeof exciting innovation that's
come out of that, and pulled inexternal funding, private
funding, and generated, youknow, very good return for the
(22:54):
UK taxpayer. And if you want tolearn more about that, we did a
review of the biomedicalcatalyst in 2019, which we
commissioned independentlythrough Ipsos Mori, that will
give you all the stats andfigures, but we think it's a
proven route for deliveringinnovation funding in the
healthcare innovation space. Anddefinitely, if you're in
paediatric innovation, andyou're in a business, or perhaps
(23:16):
you're a clinician or anacademic working with a
business, and you want to do acollaborative r&d project, have
that conversation and take alook and see if the biomedical
catalyst is for you.
Hannah (23:27):
Thank you. Another area that we were interested in
getting your perspective on waswhere you get your ideas from.
So the problem is that we'retalking about addressing in the
UK will be very similar acrossthe globe. And so do you have
connections with people in otherparts of the world? Or who do
you look for for inspiration oras a source of a good idea or
(23:49):
just put two three approachestogether?
Richard (23:52):
So Well, we work with organisations from from all
around the world. So we do runglobal missions as well. So to
give global expert missions inselected areas, where we think
the UK has a particular strengthand where we think there are
things to learn from undertakinga mission to another country. So
we've undertaken digital healthmissions, for example, to South
(24:16):
Korea, and also done work in thedigital health space with Texas.
And also undertaking othermissions in precision medicine
and advanced therapy. So othercountries around the world where
we think there's there's a lotfor particular UK businesses to
learn and for them to engagewith local infrastructures in
country and also understandlocal markets. So for example,
(24:38):
in Texas, or the US, you know,how pricing and reimbursement
models work over there andtherefore, you know, how you do
business planning to launch intothe US market. So it gives us,
you know businesses theopportunity to do that. And we
also work closely withDepartment for International
Trade and other parts of the UK,Foreign and Commonwealth
(24:59):
development office. And we withour embassies and consulates
overseas, to identifyopportunities to work on, you
know, bilateral activities aswell. So we do have quite an
extensive international networkof research organisations, and
government innovation agenciesas well. And we do we do speak
to them and share informationand ideas.
David (25:20):
I think, you know, all of what we've discussed is
fantastic in terms of, you know,opportunities for people to come
forward with ideas, and just thefact that, you know, you're,
you're looking to do more, whatdoes success look like? Where
would you like to get to,already invested kind of 31
million in child health, whichis great, but we know there's ho
efully a long way to go, whewe start to unpack some of the
(25:42):
igures that are starting to comout in terms of the, you k
ow, you talk about economic impat on and societal impact, we
can drill down and start to lok at childhood illness,
nd what that actually the long trm impact both from a societa
and economic perspectiv, so what will what would suc
ess, you know, look like, anwhat, what are the timeframes
hat you would like to kindf look at from that point of
(26:03):
iew?
Richard (26:05):
So, yeah, I mean, we generally try and think long
term, but I think, within thenext 10 years or so, for us to
get to a place where we've got athriving industry sector in this
space, where the UK is a worldleader, which I think
potentially it has, has theopportunity to take that
position, where we have, youknow, a thriving research
(26:26):
innovation ecosystem that canprovide the pipeline of
innovation, in child health, inareas like health tech, in
particular, and where, you know,we've helped, you know, done a
bit to kind of change theculture and philosophy of how
companies and businessesapproach child health. So, you
know, as in keeping with thetheme of this podcast, not mini
(26:47):
adults, you know, how do we helpbuild a child centred thinking
around the design of new, youknow, medical device products,
for example, as such that, youknow, we're not doing kind of
adult healthcare innovation, andthen producing cut down versions
of, of that for, you know, forchildren and babies, which is,
you know, not got us to a goodplace, historically. So, I
(27:09):
think, I would hope that we willhave done our bit to help change
that and help businesses be ableto access the tools, resources,
facilities, funding, and supportthat they need to be able to
take those those innovationsforward and do it in a way
which, you know, deliverseconomic impact. So you know,
company growth, jobs andhopefully increased flow of
(27:30):
revenue to the Exchequer goingforward.
David (27:33):
Richard, thank you, what we have discussed in the public
has been so important. And as wesaid, it's one of the ones that
we I'm not sure enjoy is theright word, because it would be
great to talk about, you know,all the successes that we've
done, and everything that you'vejust described in it, but but
certainly being able to shareand, and hopefully, someone will
be listening, and they will beon the innovate uk website and
(27:56):
thinking about that, you know,biomedical catalyst or whatever
it might be. The question thatwe, that we end each podcast
with is, if you could changeanything within child health,
what would it be?
Richard (28:07):
Gosh, well, I think it would be as per my, you know, my
last comments, to change thethinking, you know, how we think
about child health innovation,embedding it in, you know, the
early stage design and thinkingwhether it be discovering and
developing new pharmaceuticalproduct or a medical device, but
you know, embedding thatthinking from from the outset,
(28:28):
because I think that's going tolead to the best innovations,
the best products and servicesand create more choice for
paediatricians for clinicians,to enable them to tender to the
health needs of children and tohave those tools available. But
it's got to start I think, withthat child patient centred
(28:48):
thinking. So you know, if we donothing else, aside from set
that that particular ballrolling, I think we'll have
achieved a lot.
Hannah (28:56):
They should thank you very much indeed for joining us
on there not many adults podcasttoday. It's been a really
interesting conversation. Thankyou, likewise, and a pleasure.
Thank you very much.
David (29:08):
Thank you so much to Richard for joining us on this
week's not mini adults podcast.
As many of you that havelistened to us before will know.
Funding is a big passion areafor us. And over the course of
the rest of this season and intothe next season on the podcast,
we will continue to have guestsdiscussing the importance of
funding and support for ChildHealth. Over the coming weeks.
(29:29):
We are really excited about someof the guests that we will have
joining us on the podcast. So inorder to find out who they might
be, please join us next time.
Please do subscribe to thepodcast. And if you're enjoying
it, please do leave us a reviewas well. We hope you'll join us
again next week.
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