January 12, 2023 • 28 mins
In today´s episode of the ‘Nuclear Families Evangelist’ (A podcast that debunks the mythologies and biology by exploring the dynamics and relationships in blended families), host Traci Dority-Shanklin (Managing Partner at Sisu Partners) talks with guests Heather Hetchler, a columnist at Stepmom Magazine, a wife, a mom, stepmom, a thought leader and a coach for blended families with learning to step at e-learning platform for blended families.
The second guest is Ed Vargo, who has over 20 years of experience in the Financial Services industry and is the Founder of Burning River Advisory Group (A Wealth Management Firm that specializes in working with women experiencing significant life events, divorce, retirement, widowhood, etc.). Ed is also the founder of ‘EnlightenHer’ (A new women’s first financial education and coaching company).
Both the guests are sharing their thoughts and tips for blended families learning to communicate honestly and effectively about finances.
Resources Mentioned
· Traci Dority-Shanklin: LinkedIn Instagram
· Heather Hetchler: Instagram Twitter
· ED Vargo: EnlightenHer (Website)
Contact:
Traci Dority-Shanklin: LinkedIn Twitter Facebook
traci@sisupartnersllc.com
website: www.nuclear-families.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (00:20):
I have a fantastic show today.
I am hosting two exceptionalguests.
My first guest, Heather Hetchlerreturns to the podcast.
She is a columnist at stepmommagazine, a wife, a mom, a
step-mom and a thought leaderand coach for blended families
with learning to step ane-learning platform for blended
(00:43):
families.
Hi, Heather.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Heather Hetchler (00:47):
Thanks, Traci.
It's good to be here.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (00:49):
My second guest is Ed Vargo.
He has over 20 years ofexperience in the financial
services industry and is thefounder of Burning River
Advisory Group.
A boutique wealth managementfirm that specializes in working
with women, experiencingsignificant life events,
divorce, retirement, widowhood.
(01:11):
He is also the founder ofEnlightenedHer, a new"women
first" financial education andcoaching company.
Hi, Ed.
And welcome to the show.
Ed Vargo (01:22):
Hey, Traci.
Good to be here.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (01:25):
So before we get started, Ed.
My audience knows Heather, but Iwould love for you to share with
our listeners what Burning Riveris and its core mission.
Ed Vargo (01:35):
Yeah, thanks.
I'd love to spend a few moments.
Burning River Advisory Group ismy wealth management business.
We've been in practice fortwenty plus years.
And during that time we've spentmost of it working predominantly
with single women and women ledhouseholds, I wouldn't say
exclusively, but predominantly.
So that makes us somewhat of aunicorn in the financial
services industry.
(01:56):
It is an industry that's verymale focused and a big part of
our mission is to try and makepersonal finance, more
accessible for women inparticular.
And as an offshoot of that,we've also started a new company
called EnlightenedHer.
And EnlightenedHer, has grownfrom this idea that women need
to be more empowered when itcomes to money.
(02:17):
You know, and as a wealthprofessional wealth manager with
Burning River, our ability towork with large groups of people
is limited, right?
That's a very personal business.
It's very much one-on-one.
So at most we can work withmaybe a couple of hundred
households and that's not nearlyenough to make a real impact
across the spectrum of women.
And so EnlightenHer was designedand developed to try and bring
(02:40):
our knowledge of personalfinance instead of being,
helping just a few people, butmaking it more of the big tent,
trying to reach women.
We call it kinda starting outand starting over.
Our focus really is on say,starting out would be someone
new to finance, whether yourkid's graduating from college
and starting to learn about theworld of finance, or maybe
(03:01):
you've ended a marriage andyou're looking to start over and
get going and take the bull bythe horns when it comes to the
financial side of things.
So that's really where ourpassion and our focus lies today
is trying to educate on a muchbroader level versus maybe what
I've done in the past tyears.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (03:16):
I love this, really love this because
this is something that I hadactually tested as a business
idea in my niche.
So my niche is in themultiemployer benefit funds
world.
And I feel like retirementliteracy is a real problem.
Because you've got a lot ofunion members that just don't
(03:37):
even know what they have.
They have these retirement plansand are not really sure what
they're going to have uponretirement, which I think is a
really huge need.
So I love, and I have twodaughters and I, myself am a
woman, obviously who in spite ofworking in the financial
services industry has reallytaken very little ownership of
(04:01):
my financial picture.
And that's something that I wantto get into as we progress in
this conversation, because Idon't think that's an uncommon
thing.
I think society and for otherreasons has dictated the way
women have approached finances.
And so, this is exciting.
So how did the two of you meet?
Heather Hetchler (04:21):
I was actually at a networking event for women
and I sat next to this lovelywoman Melana.
And we started talking and I wassharing with her what I do for
blended families and women goingthrough divorce.
She is a co-partner with Ed.
She shared with me what she did,and we just really hit it off.
Neither of us joined thenetworking group, but we became
(04:41):
friends and I was invited toshare on second Saturdays, which
is an in-person workshop that Edoffers for women going through
divorce.
So it's a wonderful program inperson, three hours.
They bring in a mental healthexpert.
That's where I came in afinancial expert, which is where
they come in and an attorney.
And we sit with women and wetalk about all three areas and
(05:04):
we educate them.
And I just was so impressed withthe work that Ed and Melana were
doing and just kept working withthem and connecting with them
and love the whole mission ofEnlightenedHer.
And as, as a woman and as aneducated woman, myself, I shared
with them one day, I didn'treally know anything about
money.
Right.
I was raised in a house whereget married and your husband
(05:27):
will handle the finance.
And here I was college graduatemaster's degree.
I had no clue what I was doing,and I was embarrassed to ask for
help because I thought I wassupposed to have my stuff
together.
And then when my first marriageended, I was really clueless
about how to start over, and Ihad to get my act together and I
(05:48):
wish I would have had somethinglike EnlightenedHer to help me.
And so I'm just reallypassionate about what this
offers to women, what this canhelp us do for our daughters and
just the importance of whatEnlightenedHer brings, because
it's just such an unmet need.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (06:03):
I'm really looking forward to
hearing more about it.
So I guess what courses doesEnlightenHer teach?
If you could just give me, anoutline that would be great.
Ed Vargo (06:13):
Yeah, up to this point, we've primarily held
these divorce workshops.
So that's where it started andwhere we're still currently
doing those divorce workshopsseveral times a year.
And actually right now we're inthe midst of putting together an
online divorce course.
We just had a meeting of theminds the other day with all of
the professionals involved.
So there's attorneys, divorceattorneys, mental health
(06:34):
therapists, financial advisors,and we're putting together a
divorce course to help women nomatter where they are in the
process.
So think of it.
If you're pre-staged, as you'rethinking that your marriage may
not pan out the way you wouldlike.
And so this idea of divorce isstarting to come online and
you're thinking, and you don'tknow anything about it, right?
So we're going to develop acourse designed for that stage
(06:57):
of the process.
And then of course, as youprogress through this, there's
the you're in the midst of itand your needs when you're in
the middle of divorce is verydifferent than when you're at
the front end of it.
And so we're going to develop asecond course in association
with the first, and then finallywe have post divorce.
Now that we're at the end ofthis process, I'm looking to set
forth on this new life.
What do I need to do?
(07:18):
There are three separate coursesthat you could step into a la
cart.
Or you could look at gettingthem all together to help you
navigate through the entireprocess.
So we're immersed in that rightnow.
And then coming onlinethereafter, once we get through
this is we're going to probablyfocus on that starting out
course.
And that's really taking thismindset of"Hey, I'm graduating
(07:39):
from college and looking to takeon the world, but oh yeah.
This money stuff.
What do I need to know aboutthis money stuff?" Because now I
have five daughters.
So now my girls are between theages of 16 and 23.
And so they're basically thatperson.
And so, as a financialprofessional, I'm looking at
well, what did they know aboutmoney?
They know, what I've modeled forthem.
They know what I've taught thembeing around me all the time,
(08:01):
but they still wouldn't know howto go out and select benefits,
how to choose retirement plans.
They don't really know how tothink about money.
And you think about that, likehow much money matters in every
aspect of our life.
And yet you mentioned financialliteracy and how there's a real
problem with financial literacy.
(08:21):
It's very true.
And so these kids, are gettingthese first jobs and they have
no idea what to do with theirmoney, but if we could get to
them early, get the foundationbuilt.
Help them understand how to notmake the mistakes that a lot of
us have made over the years.
They would be so much betterprepared for every other area of
their life.
Now money can't make you happy,but it can certainly help keep
(08:43):
you from being stressed out andanxious and poor and going down
a bad path.
So that's, a long way ofanswering the next course coming
online is probably going to bethis quote unquote, starting out
course for college grads.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (08:56):
It sounds like your core coaching at the
moment is divorced women and theyoung person just coming out of
college.
Is that correct?
Ed Vargo (09:04):
That's accurate.
Yep.
So we think of it as liketransitions, you know, where,
where money and life intersect.
Those transitions are reallyimportant, and from Burning
Rivers perspective, my wealthmanagement business, our focus
is squarely in those moments,those complicated moments where
life and money intersect andwhere money's complicated enough
on its own.
(09:24):
But when you have these majorlife events, divorce, death of a
spouse, you're transitioninginto retirement.
Now that the stakes are so muchhigher and it's so much more
complicated, right?
So getting good professionalsupport and guidance is
critical.
And then from the EnlightenedHerside where we're kind of taking
that mindset, but thesetransitions of obviously divorce
is a major transition.
(09:44):
And then just getting started.
That's a transition.
It's not as obvious though, youknow, it's not a sudden like
crisis and that's why it doesn'tget enough attention, right?
When, when you have somethingthat's a crisis, that's kind of
thrust upon you.
You pay attention, you have nochoice, but to pay attention,
divorce is one of those things,but just when you come out of
school you're just trying to dothe right thing with money,
(10:06):
there's no crisis, you know, sothe urgency to get something
done just isn't there, which iswhy these problems persist and
why women haven't made the gainsin the world of finance nearly
as much as they have in otherareas of their life.
And so it's something somewhatunique and we're just trying to
be on the front end of thatsolution.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (10:24):
I believe that a crisis is looming as
evidenced by the significanteconomic events coming faster.
And I believe that thatretirement crisis in America
will be one of these crisises.
Like it's just.
I don't think we are teachingour kids how important it is to
plan for the future.
Heather Hetchler (10:45):
And I wanted to add to, for those of you that
are listening.
And step-mom's, if I recentlydid a two-part article interview
with ed for step-mom magazine,and it's an excellent resource
for women to start forstep-mom's in particular to
start looking at finances fromthe context of the blended
family.
And actually if you go toEnlightenHer.com backslash
step-mom, we have dedicated awhole page for step-mom's.
(11:09):
So we do work with all women inand step-mom's do have a
different layer of complexitywhen it comes to finances in
their families.
And so there are resourcesspecifically outlined on that
page that will help step-mom.
So if you are thinking about,you know, what, yeah, finances
are a big stressor in ourfamily, or I really want to
teach my stepdaughters.
(11:29):
I really want to teach mydaughters.
There's some excellent resourcesthere that they can go to.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (11:34):
Thank you.
And we'll do put a link to thatin our show notes.
So, for our listeners, pleasecheck out the show notes.
I brought the two of youtogether, really to talk about
as we know this taboo subject offinance.
The, the dreaded F word, if youwill.
I again have spent 20 years infinance and I have, as I've
(11:58):
said, a deep concern aboutfinancial literacy.
So I think this is a criticaltopic for blended families, but
frankly, all families willbenefit from this.
So money is one of the topreasons that couples break up
and or file for divorce.
So why do you think money orfinance is often a dirty word
(12:21):
with married couples andespecially blended families?
Ed Vargo (12:24):
Money in general is it's difficult for people to
talk about money for whateverreason, right?
There's just not enoughcommunication around how money
is handled in a relationship.
Part of that is men and womenthink about money very
differently.
And if you were to do anyresearch on it, or think about
this more directly, like whenwomen think about money, their
(12:44):
perspective tends to come from,what will this money do for me?
What role does it play in mylife?
Will it allow me to not have towork forever?
Will it allow me to take care ofmy kids?
Will I be able to take care ofmy family or do some things that
are, for my lifestyle and mentend to think about it a little
bit more tangibly, like they'refocused more on like how much
money can I make, right.
And what's the return oninvestment?
(13:05):
It's a measuring stick.
It's more of a yardstick for howthey're measuring their own
success and neither way is rightor wrong.
It's just a difference in termsof how we connect with money.
And so there, there isn't thatrecognition, that money means
different things to differentpeople.
And so what naturally happens ina lot of relationships is that
the more interested party.
(13:27):
Does more of that work.
Right?
So if you're more interested inmoney as a husband, let's just
go through the stereotype, butit's there for a reason, right?
So like, if you're a womancoming into this and you just
don't connect with money, youdon't really like it that much.
And the guy's,"Oh, I kind ofliked this.
I'm interested in the return." Imeasure my success by that.
You have a tendency to turn thatmoney decision over to the
(13:47):
spouse, to the husband.
And so now what we have, and youlive your life, you do this in
all other areas of your life,right?
You have a division of labor interms of how household chores
and kids and those kinds ofthings.
The money is just another partof that.
What will that does?
It sets up a situation wherethere's not much dialogue.
Right.
No, one's really talking aboutmoney.
And so now that sets up animbalance in your lives and as
(14:09):
you start to get it, and becausemoney has a special place in our
life, right?
Money is unlike anything else inthat it's fungible, meaning it
can be readily turned intosomething else.
Think about that.
I think if there's, is thereanything else in your life that
you could just take and turn itinto whatever you want there
really isn't right.
But money is.
So if you want to greatereducation, you can go get better
educated.
(14:29):
If you want to go on a vacation,you can buy a vacation, you can
do all sorts of things withmoney.
And so the power that it holdsin our lives is paramount.
It's above all else.
And so what ends up happeningin, in these relationships is
that when we spend moneyinappropriately, Or if we're not
talking about how we spendmoney, we attribute like we're
(14:49):
getting a divorce because ofmoney, but it's not really the
money.
That's the problem.
It's our lack of haveconversation about what does
that money doing for us?
Like the wife might be thinkingwe should be putting our money
towards our kid's collegeeducation.
And he might be thinking that,maybe we should put it towards
vacation.
Cause that's, it's for thefamily, but there's no
communication.
And so they blame it on thesemoney issues, but it really is
(15:10):
they're not on the same pagewith values and how they use
their money in communication.
And then they fight over money,but it's really not the money.
Again, they're fighting over theuse of money.
And if we keep focusing on moneyas the problem, instead of our
ability to communicate andgetting on the same page with
how we should be using thismoney in the context of our
lives, the problem doesn't getsolved and it often doesn't get
(15:33):
solved.
If that makes any sense.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (15:35):
No, it totally makes sense.
I'm wondering if blendedfamilies actually are at an
advantage here, because ifHeather's work is to come to
fruition, which I'm sure itdoes.
In many cases, people enterthese blended families with a
lot more of eyes wide open.
And are you finding that this isan easier conversation?
(15:57):
Maybe Heather, you can addressthis f or couples either newly
in an, in a blended family or ina blended family that have come
to you because things weren'tworking.
Are they more open to having theconversation, the real
conversation about what is thismoney supposed to do for us?
Heather Hetchler (16:16):
So Traci, that is a good question.
And you know what I found inworking with step moms and
families, especially as they'repreparing to blend is they are
talking about all those topics,right?
They're talking about how are wegoing to merge our money?
Are we going to have separateaccounts?
We're going to put our moneytogether, How are we going to
parent?
Where are we going to live?
They are talking about allthose, but just like they have
(16:36):
those conversations about okay,what kind of kids do we want to
raise?
They oftentimes don't talk aboutthe tactics.
So they have that overall kindof strategy agreement, okay, we
want to raise, accountable,honest, compassionate kids, but
maybe dad has a more permissiveway of parenting and step-mom
has a more, rigid way, right?
(16:57):
So their tactics aren't aligned.
The same thing can happen withmoney.
They want to save.
They want to, compartmentalizewhat they pay for, but they
oftentimes don't talk about thetactics.
And I think, well, I know whathappens a lot of times in step
families is something that Edtalks a lot about is financial
infidelity.
(17:17):
Step families, let's just say anexample.
Step-mom is upset becauseex-wife keeps asking for more
money, right?
Husband tells his wife, shewants more, she wants us to pay
for soccer camp.
She wants us to pay, you know,the stepmom feels disrespected.
She feels like they're gettingtaken advantage of, she gets
upset.
She ends up fighting with herhusband.
So what happens?
(17:38):
He stops telling his wife what'sgoing on because he wants to
keep his ex-wife happy so he cankeep his wife happy.
Then the kid comes over,"Hey,mommy.
So happy you paid for soccercamp." And the step-mom's what
you did, you did what?
Because he took cash out andpaid for paid her.
So now we're fighting becauseit's not even about the money.
(17:59):
It's about the disrespect.
It's about the lying.
And we see a lot of that in stepfamilies to minimize a
neutralize argument.
We start giving and using moneyin ways that we're not sharing
with our spouse.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (18:13):
Yeah, And that's something that we
definitely are going to diveinto.
Cause I think it's a very commontheme.
And as Heather knows, Ed, I comefrom a blended family.
And, I'm also in a blendedfamily.
I have the perspective of thishappening to me on both sides,
where I was the recipient ofthis infidelity in terms of
(18:36):
being a child who actually gotsomething that the step mom
didn't know I got.
And then I also have thesituation where it happened with
my husband.
I want to back up to what you,your point earlier Ed about
children learning habits, fromtheir parents and the concerns
(18:58):
that we all share, about how weare financially preparing and
educating our children.
At least with mine, they playgames that give them money to
spend or allow them to make,$500in the game for delivering
pizza.
How can parents teachresponsible money management and
skills within the confines ofwhat they're looking at?
(19:19):
And both to our children and ourstepchildren.
Do you have thoughts aroundthat?
Ed Vargo (19:24):
Yeah, I definitely do.
I think.
The most important thing.
First, I think a lot of parentsput pressure on themselves in
this area.
In a lot of areas in parenting,but in this area in particular.
I don't know anything aboutmoney.
I don't want to teach them thewrong thing.
And so they don't do anything.
So they're concerned aboutharming them more than they are
helping them neck in that case.
And I think just relax, just,you're not going to mess up your
(19:46):
kid when it comes to money, youdon't need to be a PhD in
finance.
So to teach them some very corethings and that's all you really
need to do that the younger theyare the less complicated it
needs to be.
So I think the first thing isjust to model the model, good
behavior model, what you thinkis important for them to know
about money.
(20:07):
Okay.
And so of course that begs thequestion.
What should they know aboutmoney?
I think from the earliest stageswe want to teach our kids about,
about spending money on thingsthat are meaningful to you.
Right.
Like, cause we have a limitedsupply of dollars.
We all have limited supply ofmoney.
So we can't just spend our moneyon anything we want and expect
to be happy.
So we need to just figure out,okay, what's really important to
(20:28):
us.
And as us parents, if you modelthat and in your language and
what you do, that's going to bemore important than anything you
could possibly do.
So I'll use myself as anexample, right?
So I haven't sat down with mykids and say, oh, here's how
personal finance works A to Z.
Here's what you should do.
We've never done that before.
But what they know, what they'velearned over the years is that
(20:50):
spending money.
They don't like to spend money,on just stuff like they, they
don't want to like my, my,twenty year-old or 21 year old.
She's if a shirt costs more than$7, I'm not buying it.
Seven dollars for a shirt, whereyou can buy a shirt for seven
bucks.
Well, if you go to the thriftstore, you can, right.
So she's not concerned aboutbuying clothing and spending a
(21:11):
lot of money for it, but shelikes to go out and eat, like to
dine out with friends andfamily.
So she'll spend money in thatexperience.
Okay.
So in our family, we spend moneyon things like experiences,
doing stuff together, enjoyingtime together, but we're not big
on buying a bunch of stuff.
We don't have the latestiPhones.
We don't drive the fanciestcars.
We don't live in the nicesthouses in the biggest house.
(21:31):
And so those types of things,but we take vacations that are
probably far and away- nicer, ifyou want to say it that way than
what other people might do,especially with the family of
seven.
So the point to that is, is weas a family and my wife and I
decided that look, we're willingto put our money.
What's important to us is thedevelopment of our kids, our
family structure, and spendingtime together, creating
(21:52):
experiences and lifelongmemories.
That's really important to us.
And so we will put an inordinateamount of our money toward those
experiences.
Conversely, what we don't valueis.
You know, as an example, wedon't drive fancy cars.
I know people love their carsand that's not a value judgment
at all.
It's just saying that we satdown, we figured out what was
important to us.
(22:12):
And then we aligned our moneydecisions with that.
Now that takes zero financialknowledge, right?
It just takes an understandingof who you are.
What's important to you and thendemonstrating those behaviors to
your kids.
And so I think that's soimportant.
And when we talk about money,we're not afraid to talk about
money in front of our kids.
We don't vilify money.
(22:32):
We don't worship it.
We don't knock.
People have, who have a lot ofmoney who don't have money.
We don't put any value judgmentson money because sometimes this
happens more, I think, withwomen than men, but sometimes we
can vilify money.
You know, like the money's isbad.
We shouldn't talk about money.
That's not proper.
And all those things hold peopleback money is so important in
(22:55):
our life that we should betalking about it and we should
communicate about it.
The value part is not placing iton a pedestal and saying we
should hold money above allelse.
And so it is a circularconversation the end of the day,
but it begins and ends with ourvalues.
What's important to us.
And then knowing that the betterwe are at aligning our money
(23:17):
with those values, chances arethe better our life trajectory
is going to be.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (23:21):
Yeah.
I think it's an interesting, itcorresponds to this idea when
you are trying to find yourpurpose, right?
You have to know what yourvision is.
And I think that's, it's theexact same idea is by knowing or
know what your core values are,but core values for money may be
like integrity or never lying oron, you know, honesty is a core
(23:45):
value, but what about what is mycore value around money?
And, that's, that is a very goodplace to start for our listeners
is to think, what is it that Ireally, want this dollar to do
for me?
And then and does that alignwith what my value is, or my
deepest desire is in terms of myfinancial picture?
(24:10):
I have a question for you.
Heather does a parent and a stepparent need to approach their
children.
And they're stepchildrendifferently or the same when
they're dealing with moneymatters or conversations around
money.
Do you think, as a step parent,are you addressing it slightly
differently with yourstepchildren than you are with
your own children?
Heather Hetchler (24:29):
I think it's almost really dependent on the
family and you have to have arelationship with your child to
be able to talk about thosetypes of topics.
And so for some stunt parentsthat may work, if they have a
very, healthy, closerelationship that may work.
But if they don't it's muchbetter for the biological or
adoptive or foster parent totalk to the child about,
(24:53):
especially about a topic likethat, then it would be, I think
the most important thing isreally to see their parents and
their step-parents.
To see them, both practicinghealthy money habits.
And I do think for women that ifyou, as a step-mom, if you do
have a healthy relationship withyour stepdaughter, you can be a
good and positive role modelwhen it comes to money.
(25:15):
But if you don't have thatrelationship, don't beat
yourself up and she's watching,she's picking up on things and
just continue to model what itlooks like to have a healthy
relationship with your money.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (25:28):
I think that's, the important piece for
me.
And it was a transition I madeas a step parent is really this
idea of modeling As a stepparent, you have a limitation on
how much impact your, you canhave.
I actually think this is truefor your own children as well,
because they get to a certainage and your impact starts to
(25:49):
lessen, or they're not listeningin the same way, but they are
always, always, always watching.
So really good advice.
We are going to pause ourconversation with Heather and ed
here, but we will return in thenext episode to dive deeper into
financial infidelity.
Heather and ed will share theirthoughts and tips for blended
(26:11):
families, learning tocommunicate honestly and
effectively about finances.
You won't want to miss it.
I'd like to also think all ofour listeners for tuning in to
the nuclear families,evangelists, where we enlist
experts in humor to help unlockour hidden, super power of being
blended.
Like you, I live and breathe mynuclear families every day.
(26:35):
I am a wife, a mother throughmarriage.
A mother again, throughadoption, and a daughter,
half-sister, and stepsister frommy very own eccentric family,
with multiple marriages,multiple divorces and multiple
blended families.
See you on the next episode ofthe Nuclear Families
Evangelists, where we debunk themythologies of biology with a
(26:58):
lot of love, forgiveness andhumor.
One conversation at a time.
I have a fantastic show today.
I am hosting two exceptionalguests.
My first guest, Heather Hetchlerreturns to the podcast.
She is a columnist at stepmommagazine, a wife, a mom, a
step-mom and a thought leaderand coach for blended families
with learning to step ane-learning platform for blended
(00:43):
families.
Hi, Heather.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Heather Hetchler (00:47):
Thanks, Traci.
It's good to be here.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (00:49):
My second guest is Ed Vargo.
He has over 20 years ofexperience in the financial
services industry and is thefounder of Burning River
Advisory Group.
A boutique wealth managementfirm that specializes in working
with women, experiencingsignificant life events,
divorce, retirement, widowhood.
(01:11):
He is also the founder ofEnlightenedHer, a new"women
first" financial education andcoaching company.
Hi, Ed.
And welcome to the show.
Ed Vargo (01:22):
Hey, Traci.
Good to be here.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (01:25):
So before we get started, Ed.
My audience knows Heather, but Iwould love for you to share with
our listeners what Burning Riveris and its core mission.
Ed Vargo (01:35):
Yeah, thanks.
I'd love to spend a few moments.
Burning River Advisory Group ismy wealth management business.
We've been in practice fortwenty plus years.
And during that time we've spentmost of it working predominantly
with single women and women ledhouseholds, I wouldn't say
exclusively, but predominantly.
So that makes us somewhat of aunicorn in the financial
services industry.
(01:56):
It is an industry that's verymale focused and a big part of
our mission is to try and makepersonal finance, more
accessible for women inparticular.
And as an offshoot of that,we've also started a new company
called EnlightenedHer.
And EnlightenedHer, has grownfrom this idea that women need
to be more empowered when itcomes to money.
(02:17):
You know, and as a wealthprofessional wealth manager with
Burning River, our ability towork with large groups of people
is limited, right?
That's a very personal business.
It's very much one-on-one.
So at most we can work withmaybe a couple of hundred
households and that's not nearlyenough to make a real impact
across the spectrum of women.
And so EnlightenHer was designedand developed to try and bring
(02:40):
our knowledge of personalfinance instead of being,
helping just a few people, butmaking it more of the big tent,
trying to reach women.
We call it kinda starting outand starting over.
Our focus really is on say,starting out would be someone
new to finance, whether yourkid's graduating from college
and starting to learn about theworld of finance, or maybe
(03:01):
you've ended a marriage andyou're looking to start over and
get going and take the bull bythe horns when it comes to the
financial side of things.
So that's really where ourpassion and our focus lies today
is trying to educate on a muchbroader level versus maybe what
I've done in the past tyears.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (03:16):
I love this, really love this because
this is something that I hadactually tested as a business
idea in my niche.
So my niche is in themultiemployer benefit funds
world.
And I feel like retirementliteracy is a real problem.
Because you've got a lot ofunion members that just don't
(03:37):
even know what they have.
They have these retirement plansand are not really sure what
they're going to have uponretirement, which I think is a
really huge need.
So I love, and I have twodaughters and I, myself am a
woman, obviously who in spite ofworking in the financial
services industry has reallytaken very little ownership of
(04:01):
my financial picture.
And that's something that I wantto get into as we progress in
this conversation, because Idon't think that's an uncommon
thing.
I think society and for otherreasons has dictated the way
women have approached finances.
And so, this is exciting.
So how did the two of you meet?
Heather Hetchler (04:21):
I was actually at a networking event for women
and I sat next to this lovelywoman Melana.
And we started talking and I wassharing with her what I do for
blended families and women goingthrough divorce.
She is a co-partner with Ed.
She shared with me what she did,and we just really hit it off.
Neither of us joined thenetworking group, but we became
(04:41):
friends and I was invited toshare on second Saturdays, which
is an in-person workshop that Edoffers for women going through
divorce.
So it's a wonderful program inperson, three hours.
They bring in a mental healthexpert.
That's where I came in afinancial expert, which is where
they come in and an attorney.
And we sit with women and wetalk about all three areas and
(05:04):
we educate them.
And I just was so impressed withthe work that Ed and Melana were
doing and just kept working withthem and connecting with them
and love the whole mission ofEnlightenedHer.
And as, as a woman and as aneducated woman, myself, I shared
with them one day, I didn'treally know anything about
money.
Right.
I was raised in a house whereget married and your husband
(05:27):
will handle the finance.
And here I was college graduatemaster's degree.
I had no clue what I was doing,and I was embarrassed to ask for
help because I thought I wassupposed to have my stuff
together.
And then when my first marriageended, I was really clueless
about how to start over, and Ihad to get my act together and I
(05:48):
wish I would have had somethinglike EnlightenedHer to help me.
And so I'm just reallypassionate about what this
offers to women, what this canhelp us do for our daughters and
just the importance of whatEnlightenedHer brings, because
it's just such an unmet need.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (06:03):
I'm really looking forward to
hearing more about it.
So I guess what courses doesEnlightenHer teach?
If you could just give me, anoutline that would be great.
Ed Vargo (06:13):
Yeah, up to this point, we've primarily held
these divorce workshops.
So that's where it started andwhere we're still currently
doing those divorce workshopsseveral times a year.
And actually right now we're inthe midst of putting together an
online divorce course.
We just had a meeting of theminds the other day with all of
the professionals involved.
So there's attorneys, divorceattorneys, mental health
(06:34):
therapists, financial advisors,and we're putting together a
divorce course to help women nomatter where they are in the
process.
So think of it.
If you're pre-staged, as you'rethinking that your marriage may
not pan out the way you wouldlike.
And so this idea of divorce isstarting to come online and
you're thinking, and you don'tknow anything about it, right?
So we're going to develop acourse designed for that stage
(06:57):
of the process.
And then of course, as youprogress through this, there's
the you're in the midst of itand your needs when you're in
the middle of divorce is verydifferent than when you're at
the front end of it.
And so we're going to develop asecond course in association
with the first, and then finallywe have post divorce.
Now that we're at the end ofthis process, I'm looking to set
forth on this new life.
What do I need to do?
(07:18):
There are three separate coursesthat you could step into a la
cart.
Or you could look at gettingthem all together to help you
navigate through the entireprocess.
So we're immersed in that rightnow.
And then coming onlinethereafter, once we get through
this is we're going to probablyfocus on that starting out
course.
And that's really taking thismindset of"Hey, I'm graduating
(07:39):
from college and looking to takeon the world, but oh yeah.
This money stuff.
What do I need to know aboutthis money stuff?" Because now I
have five daughters.
So now my girls are between theages of 16 and 23.
And so they're basically thatperson.
And so, as a financialprofessional, I'm looking at
well, what did they know aboutmoney?
They know, what I've modeled forthem.
They know what I've taught thembeing around me all the time,
(08:01):
but they still wouldn't know howto go out and select benefits,
how to choose retirement plans.
They don't really know how tothink about money.
And you think about that, likehow much money matters in every
aspect of our life.
And yet you mentioned financialliteracy and how there's a real
problem with financial literacy.
(08:21):
It's very true.
And so these kids, are gettingthese first jobs and they have
no idea what to do with theirmoney, but if we could get to
them early, get the foundationbuilt.
Help them understand how to notmake the mistakes that a lot of
us have made over the years.
They would be so much betterprepared for every other area of
their life.
Now money can't make you happy,but it can certainly help keep
(08:43):
you from being stressed out andanxious and poor and going down
a bad path.
So that's, a long way ofanswering the next course coming
online is probably going to bethis quote unquote, starting out
course for college grads.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (08:56):
It sounds like your core coaching at the
moment is divorced women and theyoung person just coming out of
college.
Is that correct?
Ed Vargo (09:04):
That's accurate.
Yep.
So we think of it as liketransitions, you know, where,
where money and life intersect.
Those transitions are reallyimportant, and from Burning
Rivers perspective, my wealthmanagement business, our focus
is squarely in those moments,those complicated moments where
life and money intersect andwhere money's complicated enough
on its own.
(09:24):
But when you have these majorlife events, divorce, death of a
spouse, you're transitioninginto retirement.
Now that the stakes are so muchhigher and it's so much more
complicated, right?
So getting good professionalsupport and guidance is
critical.
And then from the EnlightenedHerside where we're kind of taking
that mindset, but thesetransitions of obviously divorce
is a major transition.
(09:44):
And then just getting started.
That's a transition.
It's not as obvious though, youknow, it's not a sudden like
crisis and that's why it doesn'tget enough attention, right?
When, when you have somethingthat's a crisis, that's kind of
thrust upon you.
You pay attention, you have nochoice, but to pay attention,
divorce is one of those things,but just when you come out of
school you're just trying to dothe right thing with money,
(10:06):
there's no crisis, you know, sothe urgency to get something
done just isn't there, which iswhy these problems persist and
why women haven't made the gainsin the world of finance nearly
as much as they have in otherareas of their life.
And so it's something somewhatunique and we're just trying to
be on the front end of thatsolution.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (10:24):
I believe that a crisis is looming as
evidenced by the significanteconomic events coming faster.
And I believe that thatretirement crisis in America
will be one of these crisises.
Like it's just.
I don't think we are teachingour kids how important it is to
plan for the future.
Heather Hetchler (10:45):
And I wanted to add to, for those of you that
are listening.
And step-mom's, if I recentlydid a two-part article interview
with ed for step-mom magazine,and it's an excellent resource
for women to start forstep-mom's in particular to
start looking at finances fromthe context of the blended
family.
And actually if you go toEnlightenHer.com backslash
step-mom, we have dedicated awhole page for step-mom's.
(11:09):
So we do work with all women inand step-mom's do have a
different layer of complexitywhen it comes to finances in
their families.
And so there are resourcesspecifically outlined on that
page that will help step-mom.
So if you are thinking about,you know, what, yeah, finances
are a big stressor in ourfamily, or I really want to
teach my stepdaughters.
(11:29):
I really want to teach mydaughters.
There's some excellent resourcesthere that they can go to.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (11:34):
Thank you.
And we'll do put a link to thatin our show notes.
So, for our listeners, pleasecheck out the show notes.
I brought the two of youtogether, really to talk about
as we know this taboo subject offinance.
The, the dreaded F word, if youwill.
I again have spent 20 years infinance and I have, as I've
(11:58):
said, a deep concern aboutfinancial literacy.
So I think this is a criticaltopic for blended families, but
frankly, all families willbenefit from this.
So money is one of the topreasons that couples break up
and or file for divorce.
So why do you think money orfinance is often a dirty word
(12:21):
with married couples andespecially blended families?
Ed Vargo (12:24):
Money in general is it's difficult for people to
talk about money for whateverreason, right?
There's just not enoughcommunication around how money
is handled in a relationship.
Part of that is men and womenthink about money very
differently.
And if you were to do anyresearch on it, or think about
this more directly, like whenwomen think about money, their
(12:44):
perspective tends to come from,what will this money do for me?
What role does it play in mylife?
Will it allow me to not have towork forever?
Will it allow me to take care ofmy kids?
Will I be able to take care ofmy family or do some things that
are, for my lifestyle and mentend to think about it a little
bit more tangibly, like they'refocused more on like how much
money can I make, right.
And what's the return oninvestment?
(13:05):
It's a measuring stick.
It's more of a yardstick for howthey're measuring their own
success and neither way is rightor wrong.
It's just a difference in termsof how we connect with money.
And so there, there isn't thatrecognition, that money means
different things to differentpeople.
And so what naturally happens ina lot of relationships is that
the more interested party.
(13:27):
Does more of that work.
Right?
So if you're more interested inmoney as a husband, let's just
go through the stereotype, butit's there for a reason, right?
So like, if you're a womancoming into this and you just
don't connect with money, youdon't really like it that much.
And the guy's,"Oh, I kind ofliked this.
I'm interested in the return." Imeasure my success by that.
You have a tendency to turn thatmoney decision over to the
(13:47):
spouse, to the husband.
And so now what we have, and youlive your life, you do this in
all other areas of your life,right?
You have a division of labor interms of how household chores
and kids and those kinds ofthings.
The money is just another partof that.
What will that does?
It sets up a situation wherethere's not much dialogue.
Right.
No, one's really talking aboutmoney.
And so now that sets up animbalance in your lives and as
(14:09):
you start to get it, and becausemoney has a special place in our
life, right?
Money is unlike anything else inthat it's fungible, meaning it
can be readily turned intosomething else.
Think about that.
I think if there's, is thereanything else in your life that
you could just take and turn itinto whatever you want there
really isn't right.
But money is.
So if you want to greatereducation, you can go get better
educated.
(14:29):
If you want to go on a vacation,you can buy a vacation, you can
do all sorts of things withmoney.
And so the power that it holdsin our lives is paramount.
It's above all else.
And so what ends up happeningin, in these relationships is
that when we spend moneyinappropriately, Or if we're not
talking about how we spendmoney, we attribute like we're
(14:49):
getting a divorce because ofmoney, but it's not really the
money.
That's the problem.
It's our lack of haveconversation about what does
that money doing for us?
Like the wife might be thinkingwe should be putting our money
towards our kid's collegeeducation.
And he might be thinking that,maybe we should put it towards
vacation.
Cause that's, it's for thefamily, but there's no
communication.
And so they blame it on thesemoney issues, but it really is
(15:10):
they're not on the same pagewith values and how they use
their money in communication.
And then they fight over money,but it's really not the money.
Again, they're fighting over theuse of money.
And if we keep focusing on moneyas the problem, instead of our
ability to communicate andgetting on the same page with
how we should be using thismoney in the context of our
lives, the problem doesn't getsolved and it often doesn't get
(15:33):
solved.
If that makes any sense.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (15:35):
No, it totally makes sense.
I'm wondering if blendedfamilies actually are at an
advantage here, because ifHeather's work is to come to
fruition, which I'm sure itdoes.
In many cases, people enterthese blended families with a
lot more of eyes wide open.
And are you finding that this isan easier conversation?
(15:57):
Maybe Heather, you can addressthis f or couples either newly
in an, in a blended family or ina blended family that have come
to you because things weren'tworking.
Are they more open to having theconversation, the real
conversation about what is thismoney supposed to do for us?
Heather Hetchler (16:16):
So Traci, that is a good question.
And you know what I found inworking with step moms and
families, especially as they'repreparing to blend is they are
talking about all those topics,right?
They're talking about how are wegoing to merge our money?
Are we going to have separateaccounts?
We're going to put our moneytogether, How are we going to
parent?
Where are we going to live?
They are talking about allthose, but just like they have
(16:36):
those conversations about okay,what kind of kids do we want to
raise?
They oftentimes don't talk aboutthe tactics.
So they have that overall kindof strategy agreement, okay, we
want to raise, accountable,honest, compassionate kids, but
maybe dad has a more permissiveway of parenting and step-mom
has a more, rigid way, right?
(16:57):
So their tactics aren't aligned.
The same thing can happen withmoney.
They want to save.
They want to, compartmentalizewhat they pay for, but they
oftentimes don't talk about thetactics.
And I think, well, I know whathappens a lot of times in step
families is something that Edtalks a lot about is financial
infidelity.
(17:17):
Step families, let's just say anexample.
Step-mom is upset becauseex-wife keeps asking for more
money, right?
Husband tells his wife, shewants more, she wants us to pay
for soccer camp.
She wants us to pay, you know,the stepmom feels disrespected.
She feels like they're gettingtaken advantage of, she gets
upset.
She ends up fighting with herhusband.
So what happens?
(17:38):
He stops telling his wife what'sgoing on because he wants to
keep his ex-wife happy so he cankeep his wife happy.
Then the kid comes over,"Hey,mommy.
So happy you paid for soccercamp." And the step-mom's what
you did, you did what?
Because he took cash out andpaid for paid her.
So now we're fighting becauseit's not even about the money.
(17:59):
It's about the disrespect.
It's about the lying.
And we see a lot of that in stepfamilies to minimize a
neutralize argument.
We start giving and using moneyin ways that we're not sharing
with our spouse.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (18:13):
Yeah, And that's something that we
definitely are going to diveinto.
Cause I think it's a very commontheme.
And as Heather knows, Ed, I comefrom a blended family.
And, I'm also in a blendedfamily.
I have the perspective of thishappening to me on both sides,
where I was the recipient ofthis infidelity in terms of
(18:36):
being a child who actually gotsomething that the step mom
didn't know I got.
And then I also have thesituation where it happened with
my husband.
I want to back up to what you,your point earlier Ed about
children learning habits, fromtheir parents and the concerns
(18:58):
that we all share, about how weare financially preparing and
educating our children.
At least with mine, they playgames that give them money to
spend or allow them to make,$500in the game for delivering
pizza.
How can parents teachresponsible money management and
skills within the confines ofwhat they're looking at?
(19:19):
And both to our children and ourstepchildren.
Do you have thoughts aroundthat?
Ed Vargo (19:24):
Yeah, I definitely do.
I think.
The most important thing.
First, I think a lot of parentsput pressure on themselves in
this area.
In a lot of areas in parenting,but in this area in particular.
I don't know anything aboutmoney.
I don't want to teach them thewrong thing.
And so they don't do anything.
So they're concerned aboutharming them more than they are
helping them neck in that case.
And I think just relax, just,you're not going to mess up your
(19:46):
kid when it comes to money, youdon't need to be a PhD in
finance.
So to teach them some very corethings and that's all you really
need to do that the younger theyare the less complicated it
needs to be.
So I think the first thing isjust to model the model, good
behavior model, what you thinkis important for them to know
about money.
(20:07):
Okay.
And so of course that begs thequestion.
What should they know aboutmoney?
I think from the earliest stageswe want to teach our kids about,
about spending money on thingsthat are meaningful to you.
Right.
Like, cause we have a limitedsupply of dollars.
We all have limited supply ofmoney.
So we can't just spend our moneyon anything we want and expect
to be happy.
So we need to just figure out,okay, what's really important to
(20:28):
us.
And as us parents, if you modelthat and in your language and
what you do, that's going to bemore important than anything you
could possibly do.
So I'll use myself as anexample, right?
So I haven't sat down with mykids and say, oh, here's how
personal finance works A to Z.
Here's what you should do.
We've never done that before.
But what they know, what they'velearned over the years is that
(20:50):
spending money.
They don't like to spend money,on just stuff like they, they
don't want to like my, my,twenty year-old or 21 year old.
She's if a shirt costs more than$7, I'm not buying it.
Seven dollars for a shirt, whereyou can buy a shirt for seven
bucks.
Well, if you go to the thriftstore, you can, right.
So she's not concerned aboutbuying clothing and spending a
(21:11):
lot of money for it, but shelikes to go out and eat, like to
dine out with friends andfamily.
So she'll spend money in thatexperience.
Okay.
So in our family, we spend moneyon things like experiences,
doing stuff together, enjoyingtime together, but we're not big
on buying a bunch of stuff.
We don't have the latestiPhones.
We don't drive the fanciestcars.
We don't live in the nicesthouses in the biggest house.
(21:31):
And so those types of things,but we take vacations that are
probably far and away- nicer, ifyou want to say it that way than
what other people might do,especially with the family of
seven.
So the point to that is, is weas a family and my wife and I
decided that look, we're willingto put our money.
What's important to us is thedevelopment of our kids, our
family structure, and spendingtime together, creating
(21:52):
experiences and lifelongmemories.
That's really important to us.
And so we will put an inordinateamount of our money toward those
experiences.
Conversely, what we don't valueis.
You know, as an example, wedon't drive fancy cars.
I know people love their carsand that's not a value judgment
at all.
It's just saying that we satdown, we figured out what was
important to us.
(22:12):
And then we aligned our moneydecisions with that.
Now that takes zero financialknowledge, right?
It just takes an understandingof who you are.
What's important to you and thendemonstrating those behaviors to
your kids.
And so I think that's soimportant.
And when we talk about money,we're not afraid to talk about
money in front of our kids.
We don't vilify money.
(22:32):
We don't worship it.
We don't knock.
People have, who have a lot ofmoney who don't have money.
We don't put any value judgmentson money because sometimes this
happens more, I think, withwomen than men, but sometimes we
can vilify money.
You know, like the money's isbad.
We shouldn't talk about money.
That's not proper.
And all those things hold peopleback money is so important in
(22:55):
our life that we should betalking about it and we should
communicate about it.
The value part is not placing iton a pedestal and saying we
should hold money above allelse.
And so it is a circularconversation the end of the day,
but it begins and ends with ourvalues.
What's important to us.
And then knowing that the betterwe are at aligning our money
(23:17):
with those values, chances arethe better our life trajectory
is going to be.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (23:21):
Yeah.
I think it's an interesting, itcorresponds to this idea when
you are trying to find yourpurpose, right?
You have to know what yourvision is.
And I think that's, it's theexact same idea is by knowing or
know what your core values are,but core values for money may be
like integrity or never lying oron, you know, honesty is a core
(23:45):
value, but what about what is mycore value around money?
And, that's, that is a very goodplace to start for our listeners
is to think, what is it that Ireally, want this dollar to do
for me?
And then and does that alignwith what my value is, or my
deepest desire is in terms of myfinancial picture?
(24:10):
I have a question for you.
Heather does a parent and a stepparent need to approach their
children.
And they're stepchildrendifferently or the same when
they're dealing with moneymatters or conversations around
money.
Do you think, as a step parent,are you addressing it slightly
differently with yourstepchildren than you are with
your own children?
Heather Hetchler (24:29):
I think it's almost really dependent on the
family and you have to have arelationship with your child to
be able to talk about thosetypes of topics.
And so for some stunt parentsthat may work, if they have a
very, healthy, closerelationship that may work.
But if they don't it's muchbetter for the biological or
adoptive or foster parent totalk to the child about,
(24:53):
especially about a topic likethat, then it would be, I think
the most important thing isreally to see their parents and
their step-parents.
To see them, both practicinghealthy money habits.
And I do think for women that ifyou, as a step-mom, if you do
have a healthy relationship withyour stepdaughter, you can be a
good and positive role modelwhen it comes to money.
(25:15):
But if you don't have thatrelationship, don't beat
yourself up and she's watching,she's picking up on things and
just continue to model what itlooks like to have a healthy
relationship with your money.
Traci Dority-Shanklin (25:28):
I think that's, the important piece for
me.
And it was a transition I madeas a step parent is really this
idea of modeling As a stepparent, you have a limitation on
how much impact your, you canhave.
I actually think this is truefor your own children as well,
because they get to a certainage and your impact starts to
(25:49):
lessen, or they're not listeningin the same way, but they are
always, always, always watching.
So really good advice.
We are going to pause ourconversation with Heather and ed
here, but we will return in thenext episode to dive deeper into
financial infidelity.
Heather and ed will share theirthoughts and tips for blended
(26:11):
families, learning tocommunicate honestly and
effectively about finances.
You won't want to miss it.
I'd like to also think all ofour listeners for tuning in to
the nuclear families,evangelists, where we enlist
experts in humor to help unlockour hidden, super power of being
blended.
Like you, I live and breathe mynuclear families every day.
(26:35):
I am a wife, a mother throughmarriage.
A mother again, throughadoption, and a daughter,
half-sister, and stepsister frommy very own eccentric family,
with multiple marriages,multiple divorces and multiple
blended families.
See you on the next episode ofthe Nuclear Families
Evangelists, where we debunk themythologies of biology with a
(26:58):
lot of love, forgiveness andhumor.
One conversation at a time.
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