December 13, 2023 • 50 mins
Ever felt like an inner critic is stifling your creativity? Want to unlock your inner genius and find joy in the process? Tag along with us as we welcome visionary artist, Jake Kobrin, whose insights on the Ode to Joy Podcast are going to turn your world around. Discover how a unique kambo ceremony in Bali helped Jake purge emotional toxins and faced his grief head-on, reinforcing the power of release and healing in our journey to joy.
In this riveting conversation, we'll also delve into the idea of the muse's role in sparking creativity, and how discipline and surrendering intertwine in artistry. Uncover the secrets of how children effortlessly tap into their innate genius, a journey that might just reignite your own creative spirit. As we wrap up, allow Jake's touching account of his teenage years and his struggle with his inner critic to inspire you. Learn strategies to overcome your internal barriers and let your creativity flow. This episode will be a treat for anyone yearning to embrace joy, nurture their muse, and unleash their artistic side. Don't miss out!
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Learn with Jake: https://jakekobrinartcourses.thinkific.com/
Visit Jake's website: jakekobrin.com
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Visit Elena's website: elenabox.com
Buy your copy of Elena's book "Grieve Outside the Box"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elena Box (00:00):
Welcome to the Ode to Joy podcast, a show where we
talk about joy how do wecultivate it, how do we maintain
it and what are the things thatget in the way.
This week we bring you anotherpart of a very special season 2,
all about the inner muse, orinner genius, and this week we
are talking with visionaryartist Jake Cobrin.
(00:21):
I hope you enjoy.
Jake Kobrin (00:28):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to
another episode of the Ode toJoy podcast.
I'm your host, alana Box, andtoday I have the sincere
pleasure of bringing on to theshow Jake Cobrin.
Welcome, jake.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Thanks for having me, alana.
Jake Kobrin (00:48):
I'm so happy to have you here and to see your
beautiful face here.
So for those of our listenersour listener who is just
becoming introduced to you alittle bit about Jake.
He is a visionary artist andhe's an upcoming author and
educator in magic and Westernesotericism.
(01:08):
Very fancy, very cool guy andI'm so excited to have you on
the show.
Can you tell us I love to sortof land my guests and our
listener with just locating whenare you joining us right now on
this earth?
Where are you.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, so I'm currently in Denver, colorado.
I've been here for the lastcouple weeks and really enjoying
being here.
It's one of my favorite placesI've visited in the US so far.
Really awesome community.
A lot of people from my likearts community, the visionary
art world, live here.
There's also an amazing scenefor bass music, which I'm a big
fan of, so I've just reallyenjoyed my time here.
(01:49):
Denver has been really good tome, but leaving tonight to go
back to California.
Jake Kobrin (01:54):
Back to California, and then are you heading back
to Bali after California.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Eventually.
Yes, I'm a little uncertainexactly as to the time frame of
that, but I'm feeling probablyearly January to head back to
Bali.
I think I may stay in theStates for New Year's.
I might even come back to NewYork City possibly for that, and
maybe I'd see you there.
Jake Kobrin (02:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
We'll see.
But yeah, I'm sort of here withsupporting family, with some
stuff, and so I'm kind ofprolonging my trip to
accommodate that and it'll makesense in terms of when I'm meant
to return to Bali, but for nowI've actually really been
enjoying my time in the US.
Jake Kobrin (02:34):
That's beautiful.
That's wonderful.
I'm so happy that you're havingthis moment to just drop into
the States and I know you're aCalifornia native, you're from
California and you livegenerally full time in Bali,
which is where we met, yeah,yeah.
So, yeah, I just want to sharea little background of sort of
(02:54):
how we met.
So it was after it was like acouple of months after my father
passed, I had moved to Bali andI met you sort of in.
Oh, I met you during a comboceremony, do you remember?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
that I don't remember the camo ceremony.
Tell me more.
I mean, I've done camo like alot of times, so it's all just a
blur of sweat and vomit.
Jake Kobrin (03:16):
You were across the room from me.
I think that's where we met,but I think I'd sort of seen you
on the Bali scene before thatand then maybe that was like the
first time we were in a spacetogether, but we were in a combo
ceremony and you were very muchlike in a very deep process.
I remember you sharing.
I don't know if it happened toyou that time, but you're like
yeah, you know I've been doingthis and sometimes like stuff's
(03:36):
coming up and it's black and Iwas like, wow, southwile.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you had a deep process.
I was puking out some black gooat that point, getting those
demons out.
Jake Kobrin (03:46):
Getting the demons out Super casually.
It's a wonderful medicine fordoing that.
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's a great way to bond with your friends and just
puke all over each other.
Jake Kobrin (03:55):
Yeah, it's definitely a bonding experience,
that's for sure.
It's like okay, so I'm justgoing to go through a casual
death and rebirth right next toyou, and it might get wild, it
might get crazy, I might passout, and it's going to go along
for the ride, yeah, yeah.
So that's so funny that youdon't remember that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
But yeah, you want to tell our listeners about what
cambo is if they don't know.
Jake Kobrin (04:16):
Yes, yes, so this is very good.
Thank you so much.
So for our listener who's justlearning, what is this combo?
What is it?
So?
I like to describe it Basicallyit's a poison that is taken off
of the back of frogs in theAmazonian rainforest and it is a
purging medicine.
(04:36):
So essentially, how it isadministered is I would
recommend definitely being inceremony with a skilled
practitioner and to prepare, youdrink about two liters of water
and you fast beforehand, andthen small little burns are made
on your body.
Generally it's done on the arms,but you can really do it sort
of anywhere on the body.
(04:56):
I've had it done in placeswhere I felt that there was some
really sort of huge likeemotional stagnation, demons,
literally like nasty stuff thatneeded to come out on my back.
I did it on my back once.
So these little burn marks areplaced and then the skin is
taken away and then the poisonessentially is placed in these
little dots, onto these dots,these little burn marks on your
(05:18):
skin, and then what takes placefor the next 20 or so minutes is
one of the most profound andintense purging experiences one
could have and it's a wonderfulway to process.
Yeah, if you've literally I sayit's almost like squeezing out
literally every single cell ofyour body, and your heart starts
(05:39):
beating really fast, and soit's just one of the most
powerful ways to literally clearout the body of actual toxins
and then also emotional toxins,and I mean for me, during my
grief process, it was one of themost powerful tools to help
release that.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean you're basically are retching and
vomiting and you feel likeyou're dying and your face
swells up and you get sweaty andhot and your heart's beating
really fast for like 20, 30minutes and then, and then it's
chill and you feel so goodafterwards.
Jake Kobrin (06:11):
You feel amazing.
I always try to whenever I tellpeople about this or like that
sounds awful and I'm like,actually it's one of the best
things you could possibly do.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I mean, I've done it a lot of times and every single
time I do it I'm like why am Idoing this to myself?
But then afterwards I'm like,oh, that's why.
This is why you really do feelfantastic.
Afterwards, you feel like a newperson.
Jake Kobrin (06:31):
You're like a brand new baby, newborn baby, you
know, and something that I'veheard is that it's something
that the story I was told, thatthis was something that sort of
the Amazonian warriors used todo before going out on a hunt,
because afterwards your sensesare super fine tuned and super
sharp and I definitely feel thatevery single time afterwards
(06:52):
I'm just like it's like matrixlevel, just like awareness.
Elena Box (06:56):
Sensitivity.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, good times.
Cambo ceremony is a new food.
Yes, great place to meetsomebody, great place to meet
somebody.
Jake Kobrin (07:06):
So that's where we met.
And then after that, you know,I we were just sort of in the
same circles, I think, and thenI was sort of following along.
You were we're doing a lot ofartwork at that time and one
night I found you.
I was driving home up intoPenestanon where I lived, and
you were doing some street art,like I think it was something
like one in the morning.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Do you remember this?
I do remember that, yeah.
Jake Kobrin (07:28):
And I was like hey what are you doing?
I think yeah, so you're doingthis beautiful mural up on one
of the walls in Penestanon andyou were like my phone just died
.
It was pretty late, so I waslike, and you, I think you lived
kind of far away.
I was like you know what?
I have an extra bedroom, comeon in.
And then you came and youstayed and it was.
It was just one of those kindof fun like moments where you
(07:48):
know it was like all right, comeon in.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Cool classic moments.
Yeah, that mural survived for awhile.
Actually, it was up for a fewyears, I think, before it got
eventually blasted over.
Now it's not there anymore, butthat's just how it is.
Jake Kobrin (08:01):
That's how it is with street art, though I
imagine is that it's, it's sortof one of these things.
It's like those, the mandalasthat they make with the sand.
You know, it's like, yeah,eventually.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I think that wall eventually got purchased and now
it's like there's some lameadvertisement on it.
Jake Kobrin (08:16):
Lame, not so good.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
No art anymore.
Jake Kobrin (08:19):
No art anywhere.
So, ok, so let's get into thetopic du jour.
So it's just so wonderful, likewe met 2016 and I've been
following along on your journeysince then and just seeing
everything that you've beensharing and I'm super inspired
by your work and your dedicationto your artistry and, yeah,
(08:39):
yeah, I'm just like, oh, thisguy he's got it, so all right.
So topic du jour is all aboutour inner muse, our inner genius
, and I love to speak withartists because I think it's
something that's well, I think,in all terms of creative sort of
output.
It's sort of like a dance and arelationship that one has to
(08:59):
enter with their inner muse.
And so I'm actually reallycurious for you what comes up
when you first, sort of when youthink of the muse or that
internal genius, like, whatcomes up for you when you think
of that, like this also referredto some time as an inner daemon
or inner demon, which is notnecessarily like a bad thing,
but but it's sort of like thisother entity, so to speak, that
(09:21):
lives with you throughout yourlife.
Yeah, so what comes up for you?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Well, I mean, I'm very interested in magic, as you
know, and so I don't mindthinking of these things almost
as separate intelligences orhigher intelligences or even
different octaves of ourselves.
I think it might be a littlebit of a misnomer to even
consider the existence ofseparate entities in general,
like even you and I to somedegree are connected as one
(09:45):
entity or one field of awarenessor consciousness, but within
that there are distinctions interms of kind of energies that
can be perceived as separate, Iguess I would say.
And so I don't mind looking atthe concept of the muse and the
way the Greeks looked at it,which was actually, as muses,
like separate sort of spiritsthat would sort of joy, joy,
(10:07):
ride their favorite artists andaccommodate them in the pursuit
of creating whatever wants to bemoved through them.
One of the books that reallyinfluenced me as an artist is
the Artist's Way, and the mainsort of principle behind that
book is to consider creativityas something that is made
through you, through the divine,or through the diamond, which,
(10:31):
as you mentioned, is sort ofanother word for the higher self
or the muse or things like this.
But I think, relaxing ownershipover your creative pursuits and
seeing yourself more as like aconduit for things to come
through you is helpful.
You know, even as we're havingthis conversation right now,
we've engaged in the practiceand understanding of the English
(10:54):
language well enough that wecan speak it fluently, so that
we're unencumbered by having tosort of think about the
mechanics of language whilewe're speaking.
But now, having that fluency,we can kind of relax into it and
what?
The words that are comingthrough and the conversation
that is unfolding is veryintuitive.
It more comes through us.
We're not, like I don't know,thinking and grasping of every
(11:17):
single word and moment, of whatare we going to talk about?
No one does that right.
So that same sort of practicecan be applied to any art form,
where the guitarist learns theirscales or, you know, the dancer
drills the particular movementsthat are fundamental to their
dance form, or the painterlearns how to use their
(11:38):
materials well enough that theydon't have to think about it as
much in terms of the technique,to where they become fluent in
it and they can speak thatlanguage and then open
themselves up to just allow forthat muse to kind of flow
through them.
You know, and it is thisbalance and this is what I've
observed, not only in my ownpractice but with the best
(11:59):
artists that I've known, there'sa balance between the
discipline and the commitment tothe practice and actually
having to create regularity andconsistency and showing up to
create work and the sort ofletting go into that, the
perfect conditions.
You know the divine set ofconditions that allow us for any
sort of work of art tospontaneously emerge.
(12:21):
Because if you talk to anybodywho's, you know, an artist, it
is like a spontaneous emergentthing where you can.
You can never really recreatethe conditions that create the
best works of art that they'vemade.
You know it's kind of like a.
There is a sort of divineorchestration in that works of
art come into being when theyneed to come into being through
(12:41):
the artists, when the conditionsare right, and there's so many,
so many different factors haveto align in terms of that
artist's state of consciousness,the environment that they're in
, what they, you know they'resurrounded by and the kinds of
energies and experiences thatthey've had recently or are
currently experiencing.
You know so many differentfactors have to come into being
(13:03):
and even that, if you look atall the different causal factors
that come into being, for awork of art to be realized
should help to sort of detachthis sort of ownership that the
artist needs to impose over whatthey're creating, that kind of
egoic assumption that I'm theone doing this, to relax into
understanding that there arethese forces, these muses, these
(13:23):
these, these demonic forcesthat actually do influence and
inspire us, and that they'rethere to be called upon through
the right set of circumstanceswhen necessary.
Jake Kobrin (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, ooh.
You just gave me so much foodfor thought and I love how
deeply you understand this in areally embodied way.
It's juicy.
So there's so much.
I want to ask you and I want tosort of rewind back to, like
Baby Jake and I'm curious, likewas there a moment for you?
(13:58):
Or how did you like first comein contact with your inner
genius, your inner muse, yourinner demon, like was?
There a moment, or how did itcome in?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, Well, I actually think children are
really naturally connected tothat Just all children are, you
know, and it comes through andplay it comes through and the
natural faculties and capacitiesof the imagination that
children have and the sort ofmost children have, a kind of
innate sense of self confidence.
That's really refreshing.
It's like it's nice to bearound, just, you know, to get
(14:30):
around kids or kind of like that, in a way that adults are not.
And so, yeah, I think it's moreof the better.
Question is almost like whendid that stop, you know, for
most people?
I think Picasso said somethinglike all children are artists.
The difficulty is, is themstaying an artist as they become
adults, or something like that.
That's a bastardization of afamous Picasso quote.
(14:52):
And, yeah, you know, I can'treally like pinpoint a specific
experience.
That was like the first time,you know, I made art or
something like that, because Iwas always creating when I was a
kid, through drawing through.
I used to like sculpting a lotwhen I was a kid and I'm
fortunate that, you know, my momwould kind of facilitate that
(15:12):
as kind of a play experience forme and my sister and for our
friends when I was growing up.
It's just like a way to passtime.
But yeah, I mean, you know, if Ithink that sort of what sensors
that is, is the inner critic,the sort of self condemnatory
voice that lives in our headsthat says this is bad, or you're
(15:32):
going to be shamed for this, oryou know you're not an artist,
or this is ridiculous, or whatwould your parents think of this
, or whatever, I'll never be asgood as so and so.
And kids seem generally devoidof that voice and it's something
that gets sort of indoctrinatedinto one's mind as they age and
(15:54):
develop, often through parentalforces or through teachers.
And a lot of, a lot ofliberating your creativity has
to do with like overcoming thoseinner voices and even realizing
that they're not your voice,that they're not inherent to who
you are, that maybe there was acertain kind of trauma and you
can actually do kind of likeactive work in that regard, to
(16:18):
like write a, write a fuck youletter to that teacher that you
know condemned your, yourdrawing when you were in first
grade or whatever it is.
But it could be that simple.
You know, it can sometimes belike a teacher makes a bad
remark when you're like 12.
And then for the rest of yourlife.
Your creativity is kind ofinhibited by that, because
(16:39):
you're afraid of what otherpeople are going to think from
then on.
Jake Kobrin (16:44):
So I'm curious for you did you go through a process
like that you know, I knowyou've mentioned how art was
really helpful for you, like inyour teenage years, and was that
?
Was there a process for youwhere you had to write a sort of
like FU letter where you knowfor you?
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I mean yes, but in a not so much with visual
arts.
You know for me.
You know for me, I overcame alot of sort of inhibitions
around my levels of selfconfidence as a person in
general, socially and in termsof presenting myself and
especially in sort of any kindof performance context or public
(17:23):
speaking kind of context.
Music was one area which I hada lot of shit around.
I'm sorry if I'm not supposedto cut it.
Jake Kobrin (17:31):
It's okay, you can, I don't know Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So you know, when I was younger, like I wanted to be
a musician and then I was inthis band and I was the singer
and guitarist of this band.
When I was a teenager and I gotlike I got booted out of the
band because I was too fat.
Like that's a, that's a realstory.
And so the, the other guitaristin the band is like you either
(17:59):
have to lose weight or you gotto get you're out of the band.
So I got kicked out of the bandbecause I was too fat and that
really messed up my, my, my selfconfidence around being a
guitar player and a musician fora while.
And so, you know, visual artwas less loud, it was more
ignorable, if that makes sense.
(18:20):
And so I took to visual artsbecause I could do it in a way
that was like under the radar,where I wasn't getting publicly
chastised for it as much, and Ikind of moved away from music
because music was more in yourface, it was more I had to like
really put myself out and belike a performer in that, and so
that took a while to kind oflike overcome that stuff.
(18:41):
When I was, when I was a littlebit older, I started attending
the School of Rock, which isactually like what they based
that Jack Black movie off ofAmazing, and the Paul Green
School of Rock which was.
It was like a kind of youngperson's program to learn how to
play rock music and so wouldplay in bands and stuff of that
and then we would doperformances and that was really
(19:02):
encouraging, you know.
That really helped to kind ofovercome some of that stuff, you
know, and now I DJ and I doactually still I perform, you
know, I do poetry performancesand public speaking gigs and
stuff.
So I've really overcome that,that sense of not wanting to be
seen, are not wanting to bechastised, are not wanting to be
in the limelight.
(19:22):
That that trauma that was therebut definitely existed for me.
Jake Kobrin (19:26):
Yeah, I think that's definitely like a
significant amount of trauma formany artists really people is
is that fear of judgment, andyou know that's a very traumatic
thing that you went through,because I think also, when
you're putting yourself outthere and you're having like a
public face, in many ways it ishow you're being perceived, but
then when you receive feedbackthat that's not good enough,
(19:48):
then it's just like terrifying.
So I can understand why youknow, turning to visual arts and
allowing yourself to speak inthat way must have been really
helpful for you, and I'm alsoreally like amazed and like
congratulating you for movingthrough that, because I think
that's something that hinders somany people for so long.
(20:10):
So, like, go you, so happy foryou and thank you, thank you.
This brings me to my nextquestion.
This is something that, like,I've been carrying, something
that you shared, and you knowthis is one of these things
where, like, I don't know whenyou made this video, if you
really understood how deeplydeeply this would impact people,
but something that has reallystayed with me.
(20:30):
A few years ago I don't evenknow when this was you shared a
video About your process of whenyou chose to get your face
tattoos and the way that I tookit was really like this sort of
declaration, like when I thinkof.
It wasn't for me how I receivedit, wasn't like this fuck you,
but it was just this, like I'mgonna stand and being an artist
(20:52):
so securely.
I think the way that you put itwas like so that it doesn't
give me an option to back downand say, okay, I'm not an artist
anymore was like a fulldedication To your life as an
artist.
So I'm really curious can youshare a little bit about that
process for you?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
yeah, yeah, I do remember making that video and I
was basically saying that youcan Make yourself unemployable,
which I've, I've, I've strove tomake myself unemployable so
that I have no choice but to bean artist.
I think nowadays, unfortunately, it doesn't really make that
much of a difference, but itfelt like it made a difference
at the time.
(21:27):
I could probably still get ajob if I wanted to, but you know
, I was inspired.
There's this, there's a storyin the book thinking grow rich,
which I've read a few times.
Still not rich yet, but I'mthinking about it.
Jake Kobrin (21:42):
Yes, which is very good.
Elena Box (21:44):
Yes, it's part of the process.
Yes, at the battle.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And there's a story where, where they talk about a
commander of an army arriving onthe shores with ships onto the
battlegrounds and commandingafter the army dismounts the
ships and goes on to the shoresto burn the ships, and the idea
is that that army now has nooption of retreat and so they
(22:09):
must make the best of theircircumstances and move forwards
skillfully in battle to overcomethe other army.
And so I feel the same way.
If you're gonna be an artistand this is nuanced because you
know it's not like every personis at the phase, given their
life circumstance, to completelyquit their day job and to just
(22:30):
go fully into being an artist.
But I think that beginning tomove into that direction as much
as possible, and then at acertain point you really do need
to make that leap into being afull time artist.
And there are ways in whichhaving the comfort or security
blanket of kind of anotherincome through a day job that
(22:51):
can actually sometimes inhibitpeople's development as an
artist.
That sort of being forced toactually be an artist in a real
way, to professionally be anartist, and that that sort of
obligation of I actually have todo this in order to survive.
Sometimes I can really Put afire under people that can
(23:11):
actually really get them goingin the right direction.
So you know whether that was itwas not a conscious decision at
the time.
I got my face tattoos,certainly consequence of it, and
I I don't regret that,certainly yeah yeah, I think
it's so inspiring and I reallylike it's to me.
Jake Kobrin (23:31):
I've always really lived my life being guided by
the fool.
You know that, that sort of thefools journey of jumping off
the cliff and not really knowingif you're gonna land.
And I've gone through cycleafter cycle of like okay, it's
time to jump off the cliff againand we're just gonna see where
we land.
And I'm just curious for youand your experience, like Was
(23:51):
there anything?
Even though you are making thissort of declaration of like,
okay, I'm jumping off the cliff,like I'm just sort of curious
for you.
Was there a way and I'm really,really interested to hear if
there was any part of yourpersonal practice I know you
work a lot with magic andalchemy like, was there any part
of that that you brought intoyour journey that helped you
(24:14):
move through these blocks of thefears?
And what were the fears for you?
And was there a way that youcould just like, how did you
transmute the fears as youstepped into that?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, I've kind of crafted a lifestyle or a
consistent practice of Likedoing things that I feel
initially afraid to do, and forme that's not only the most
there's so much growth thatcomes out of that but also it's
a really rewarding experience,is like the kind of thing you
(24:45):
can get addicted to, wherethere's so much energy that gets
released by overcoming themental barriers that exist in
doing something that you feelinhibited to do.
So a lot of my journey as anindividual, in my personal sort
of transformation process andspiritual development, has been
(25:06):
becoming increasingly like lessinhibited over time, you know,
and moving in the direction ofwhere I feel inhibited and
pushing past those barriers,because really those are like
our demons, right, those arethese entities that exist in our
minds, but we're not that thefact that you can have a
perspective on that and be seeit signifies that you're not,
(25:28):
that you're, you're experiencingthat as something sort of alien
from yourself, right, right.
And so recognizing that fear assomething alien from yourself
that you can choose to eitherbuy into or not has been helpful
for me, and throwing myselfinto situations that I've been
afraid of.
Oftentimes those are situationsthat Involve the loss of
(25:50):
control or even confrontationwith death to a certain degree,
things like ayahuasca ceremoniesor other types of ego
obliterating type experiences,has been really helpful for me
to create some kind of like coresense of bravery, I guess you
could say, to move through theworld with, so that the things
that often inhibit people like Ican't do that thing, that would
(26:14):
be inappropriate or whateverlike just don't bother me as
much because it's like sheesh, Ijust died, you know, like
literally, and it wasn't thatbad.
I guess I was able to getthrough that.
You know there's kinds of ordeals and initiations
Spiritually that are actually abig part of our ancestry and
history is humans, but that arekind of lacking in our western
(26:36):
world, I think are reallyimportant to engender people
with a kind of spiritualstrength and self confidence.
Jake Kobrin (26:43):
That then is very practically useful in engaging
with life and it's uncertaintiesyeah, yeah, I think it's like
this overarching fear of deaththat many people constantly live
through their entire lives and,just as you said, we are
lacking in our culture thesesort of moments of initiation
throughout our lifetimes, and soI I really embrace these
(27:07):
moments of understanding okay,so it's time for another
initiation, it's time foranother death.
And even if I know like cool, soit's time for another death,
like I'm still scared, you know,like I'm still like all right,
cool, so we're gonna pushourselves to jump off that cliff
.
And I'd be curious For you, youknow how would you recommend if
(27:29):
someone was like cool, so Iknow I need to go through some
kind of initiation where, justas you said, like I'm leaving,
I'm burning the ships behind me.
I know I need to move towardsthis in order to fully embrace
my gifts, my life.
Like so I'm leaving, leavingthe past behind, old self is me,
of me is gone.
What would you recommend, likewhat comes to mind for you, if
(27:52):
you were to sort of create likea, like a prescription, like a
soul medicine prescription forsomebody who's eager for
something like this?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's a combination of things and everybody's going to
be wired differently and so noteverybody's going to be at a,
not everybody's going to havethe same attitudes or
inclinations towards themselvesand towards their experiences.
That I do like personally, Iget I get Like annoyed with
myself.
If I get frustrated with myself, like when I, when I'm seeing
(28:24):
myself be inhibited, like Idon't tolerate that very, very
much.
You know, I kind of like I seethat happening, I see myself
being afraid, you know, being alittle bitch, and I like I get
annoyed by it and I'm like, dude, come on, like you gotta be
(28:45):
kidding, you know what I mean.
And so I kind of like there's apart of me that sort of like
this I don't like rowdy olderbrother within myself or
something that kind of likepushes the sort of weaker
version of myself that livesinside of me.
It's like the stronger versionversus the weaker version inside
of me.
That kind of like is likealright, come on.
Like just just do the thing gofor it.
Like stop being a baby.
(29:06):
So I I've developed that,probably through practice, it's
sort of invented that that otherversion of myself, and now they
both coexist sort ofuncomfortably at times within
myself, but I feel that it'ssomething that I think is
important to emphasize in thisand courage and I do think that
courage is a big part ofspirituality and spiritual
(29:26):
growth and Individual personalgrowth in general in a way that
can be under emphasize, becausewe live in such a safety culture
and actually a lot of growthcomes from doing things that are
not safe and yet feelingConfident in one's own ability
to handle situations, even ifyou're in circumstances that are
unsafe, and you're never notgoing to feel afraid, right, you
(29:50):
know, like if I am, if I'mgoing into some kind of
initiation experience, I do feelfear around that.
Whether that's some kind ofintense magical ritual or
initiation or a deal, apsychedelic thing, I do feel
fear.
You know, I get to a certainpoint where, like I'm like, okay
, I'm doing this and I surrenderbecause once I'm doing it,
(30:11):
there's like I have no choice,it's gonna happen, I just have
to go along with the right.
So there's more fear and thatlack of commitment, but like,
the minute I'm committed to andexperience, the fear sorts of
sort of diminishes because like,well, I've got no choice but to
go through this.
But that fear is healthy, itshows a certain degree of
self-concern you know it's notabsolute nihilism and that
(30:34):
self-concern and that sort offear is important, but yet the
ability to feel that and to moveforwards anyway is kind of the
gold.
And yeah, I mean action, youknow like to keep moving, to
keep moving Moment by moment.
You know, we've all been insituations and we're all going
to be in situations, especiallywith the way things are going in
(30:56):
a radically changing world,where we're thrust into the
unknown, where things that wereonce working for us are not
going to be working for usanymore.
We're gonna have to learn andadapt and figure out new ways to
exist and to survive and tothrive in the world.
And you just, you get, you gotto like kind of fuck around and
find out, you know, like it'sonly through, it's only through
(31:20):
experimentation, and To see thatsort of feedback loop of, okay,
that worked or that didn't.
And I really look at, I try tolook at almost everything I do
from that kind of perspective of.
What would happen if I did this,or like what would happen if I
did that, and and not, I guess,like having that attitude
towards things, take some of thepressure off, because I know
(31:42):
that I don't know and I'm in aprocess of discovering, because
my life path is pretty unique,so I'm gonna be forced to, you
know, make mistakes and learnfrom them, and I don't mind
making mistakes and learningfrom them.
You know, and and I apply thatto to everything you know, I
apply that to my career, I applythat to dating, I apply that to
my health and fitness andwhatever.
(32:05):
It's just it's like we'll trythat out, see how that goes.
Oh, that didn't work.
Okay, learn something from thatthough, you know, but you have
to actually engage with life toget the find out part, you know
100%.
Jake Kobrin (32:19):
What keeps coming to mind is the sort of that
saying of like, feel the fearand do it anyway.
Yeah, and it also comes to mindwhen I was thinking about this.
It feels like in our culturethere's so much.
Obviously I think there'sneeded sort of education about
like, how do I say like, how tobe better humans in general,
towards ourselves, towards eachother.
I think, like the world ofmental health, like there's
(32:40):
still, you know, a lot of workto be done, but we're kind of
more aware, I think.
But in that way it's almostlike our world, at least here
and and from where I am and LongIsland, new York, it's almost
like many things are sort oflike bumper, like bumper padded,
you know, almost like kitty,kitty proved.
You know, like when you go intoa house and they've covered up
all the corners and it's likeokay, but it's gonna be soft and
(33:02):
cushy and you know, don't,don't, don't do anything too
crazy, but it'll be good,because you know how to keep
your head down and just followwhat you're supposed to do, and
you know what I was thinking,and I just feel like sharing
this, because this is what cameto mind this morning.
It's like I wonder, though, howmuch those sort of warnings
about like well, that's a redflag and you got to be careful,
(33:23):
is Maybe also hindering us insome way, because I think the
struggle is sort of what canmake you great in certain
situations.
You know, for me I've alwaysframed things in terms of like,
why went through some of themost insane pain Anyone can go
through?
And wow, there's so much.
It's like it's the hero'sjourney, which is like I love.
(33:43):
This is, I went through theshit in order to get the gold
and it's.
You know, I wouldn't wish theshit on anybody else, but like,
wow, that was some shit.
And I just thought of something, because this morning I was
thinking about the relationshipbetween Frida Kahlo and Diego
Rivera.
And I sort of I don't know why.
This is what came up and I wassort of thinking like if these
Instagram relationship Experts,you know, would have had Frida
(34:07):
and Diego to sort of think about, like well, that's a red flag
and that's a red flag.
And like, definitely, this istoxic, you shouldn't be with
each other, like listen, Ididn't know them, but I've know
enough about their lives to knowthat, yes, their relationship
was toxic in many ways and theyloved each other and they made
each other some of the mostInfluential artists of their
(34:28):
time and of our time.
So it's kind of like, yeah, itwas problematic, but like it's
almost like that, like the gritin the oyster that makes the
pearl.
So it's like can we say thatthe grit is bad and toxic if it
created a pearl?
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah, I mean there's a relationship between chaos and
creativity and Certainly, fromwhat I know about their
relationship, it was prettychaotic.
But Frida I don't know aboutDiego, but Frida for sure, like
loved the pain- you know what Imean Like she was very inspired
by it.
So she, she had a kind ofaddiction to pain that created
(35:06):
beautiful art and that workedfor her.
It's not necessarily foreverybody, but it worked for her
.
But I think it's like what youwere saying about the hero's
journey, or it's like are youthe protagonist or are you the
you know supporting role orwhatever?
And it's like if you're aprotagonist, you're gonna have
to go through some shit.
Read any story and theprotagonist goes through
(35:28):
challenges, always the worst.
You know, the protagonistalways goes through the worst,
yeah, the biggest challenges ofany other character in any story
.
And so expect that if you wantto step into that Role in the
world, if you're a protagonist,you're gonna go through some
stuff.
So it's not something to beafraid of, because everything
(35:49):
has kind of like its own reward.
And yeah, I mean there areexamples, not just Frida, but
also people like Vincent vanGogh, who had mental illness and
His personal suffering whichwas immense, not to be
understated I wouldn't want tobe him led to Tremendously
beautiful works of art, andthere there is a relationship
(36:09):
between suffering, there's arelationship between the kind of
emotional chaos and wildness ofthat, and Creativity and art,
sometimes for some reason andI've lived through my own
Versions of that at times, youknow, and and yeah it's, it's
interesting too because, likefor me, some of my most sort of
like craziest, most drug-fueled,most perhaps Unbalanced times
(36:34):
in my life were also verycreative.
So you know, and then maybesometimes where I'm a little too
comfortable, a little toobalanced and healthy, maybe I'm
a little less creative in acertain kind of way.
So it's, it's a fine line andyou have to your priorities also
change, I think as you navigatelife.
I'm a little more boring nowthan I was when I was a bit
younger, in my wild 20s orwhatever, but you know, because
(36:57):
I'm 30 now, I'm getting up thereNow, so I've taken things a
little more easy.
But yeah, there is a there is afine line between chaos and
creativity, for sure.
Jake Kobrin (37:10):
Yeah, there's so much more I want to ask you
about, though this is what wasreally coming to mind that I'd
love to ask you about.
You know, when we think aboutthe hero's journey, I would say
all myths that you read involvethe protagonist Finding a mentor
, and so I'm really curious foryou what has your relationship
(37:31):
with mentors?
What has that been?
Or they're very?
Are there any specific mentorsyou can think of, like what,
yeah, what?
What has your journey beenthrough finding mentors?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah, I mean I've had a few.
I mean the artist, androidJones, has been like an older
brother to me.
You know.
I met him when I was very youngand he's been with me through
my life sense and Kind of.
We never had like any kind oflike I don't know, official,
like mentor, studentrelationship, but it's more like
he's guided me personallythrough, like personal advice to
(38:01):
me and his kind of Examplethroughout my life and guided me
on my journey as an artist, andso I consider him like a mentor
whether I don't know if he's,if he's listening now I don't
know if you, if he would see itthe same way, or whatever, but
like he's kind of like an olderbrother to me, you know, and so
he's somebody that I've beeninfluenced by pretty heavily and
(38:23):
I I'm willing to acknowledgethat.
And you know I had a I had amentor, like an official mentor
relationship with Judy KyleVales, who is my tattoo mentor.
That was a bit more technicalin nature in terms of really
learning tattooing as an artform and less about like the
path of an artist, which is likefor Andrew, I feel like it was
(38:44):
more of like who are you at?
Like what is being an artistmean and like learning through
his example, like okay, likethis is what being an artist is
to me.
I did learn stuff from him interms of the technicalities and
making art as well, but I feellike it was more like the spirit
behind it, if that makes sense.
And yeah, you know, I've workedwith a lot of different coaches
on different things and Been indifferent schools and had a lot
(39:07):
of different teachers, all ofwhom I would credit, in
different ways.
I've had mentors also in myspiritual practice or in my
magical practice as well, andyeah, they've all, they've all
inspired me in different ways.
I guess for me, like when Ilook at my relationship with
Andrew, it was like organic.
If that, it was like you know,we never we never like had a
(39:29):
contract or anything.
It was just like something thatkind of.
That's just happened over time.
And I feel like the realmentorships are often like that.
It's not necessarily like yougo to the academy and you fill
out the paperwork to have yourmentor and I have done that and
I have gone to schools like that, but those people oftentimes
are not really those guides forme, but the real guides in our
lives I feel like they come intoour lives naturally and I've
(39:52):
had other like other reallybesides just Andrew have had
other.
They often for me they take thearchetype of kind of like an
older brother.
You know, they're often men,they're often a bit older and
like further down the road thatI am and they they kind of
initiate me into certain ways ofbeing through our friendship
and and they and I wouldconsider them sort of like
(40:13):
Mentors.
So I think there's somethingabout those kinds of
relationships that unfoldnaturally and organically, like
the guides that come into ourlives and I would say that that
just comes about, perhaps thatthose are like past-life
contracts, who knows, but it's.
It's just like about kind offollowing the whispers, meeting
the people you feel and calledto meet.
I don't feel like I have anymentees in my life in that way,
(40:37):
but I'm open to it.
I don't have any long-standingrelationships with people that
are in a younger stage ofdevelopment at this point, who
are looking to grow and findinfluence through me and my path
.
But I'm open to that, the sameway that I met Android Jones
when I was like 14.
(40:58):
If I met a 14-year-old versionof myself out there that I came
into contact with that I couldhelp in some way.
I'd be really, really open tothat.
I feel like, based on the factthat I've had other experiences
that have supported my growth asa developing artist, I almost
feel like it's my duty toprovide that in a certain way.
Jake Kobrin (41:17):
Well, I'm excited for you to step into that.
I would also just add that Ithink there probably are little
14-year-old versions of you whoare watching what you do.
I'm just saying maybe theyhaven't shown themselves yet.
But even what you've beensharing lately about mental
health and how you've workedthrough it and the practices
that you use, I can imaginethere are so many people who are
(41:40):
receiving that and how crucialit is for you to be so open and
vulnerable and really sharingyour wisdom.
I would also say I'm verycurious to round out the
conversation because I'm reallyexcited to hear you mentioned
you're an upcoming author.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what's coming through you
and what the future mentees canlearn from?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, sure I did write this book in a way with
that intention.
I wanted to write a book that Iwould hope would reach a
younger version of myself in away.
That would be like a Trojanhorse in a certain way, because
I'm trying to package self-helpideas and stuff in a way.
That's kind of cool it is cool,jay, it is cool.
(42:27):
It's a book about magic andoccultism, which is something
I've been really fascinated withfor the majority of my life.
I got into when I was ateenager.
If you read Alistair Crowleyand these other occult writers,
it's really dense andimpenetrable.
Now I've developed the abilityto understand Crowley's writing
and actually get what he'stalking about from a perspective
(42:51):
of magical practice and thingslike that.
It takes a lot of prioreducation to be able to
understand those books.
I'm writing this book almost asa translator, trying to
condense and assimilate in theclearest, most immediate
language I can.
Somebody that perhaps has neverread any books about magic to
be able to really understandwhat these concepts are pointing
(43:13):
towards and what the practicesare pointing towards and how to
do them.
There's a lot of wellness stuffin it.
The book's called Magic andSelf-Transformation.
It's really aimed atself-transformation,
self-authorship and authority,being able to become who you
want to become and be the bestand most uninhibited version of
(43:34):
yourself.
So there's wellness practicesin it.
There's ethical practices in it.
These are things that are notnormally in magical literature.
That's why I say it's like aTrojan horse, because I feel
that a lot of people get intomagic because of some kind of
motivation for some kind ofpower over their circumstances,
but what they really want us tobe happy.
I put that pretty fundamentalto the book where it's like,
(43:59):
okay, right up front, here's thewellness stuff that if you do
this you might become a happierperson than you might not need
to do all this arcane magicalstuff to try to bend reality to
your will.
I mean, it's fun, it's good tobe able to do that too.
It'll always fascinate me interms of just having my own
experiences that show thatthat's something real.
(44:19):
That goes against sort of itdoesn't fully go against sort of
the quantum model of science,but it goes against a lot of
other sort of ingrainedassumptions around what reality
is and how it works.
But it's just endlesslyfascinating to me that magic is
something real, that itapparently works.
(44:40):
It's quite unclear as toexactly how it works or why or
what's going on with that.
I think I'll always befascinated by that.
Whether that is my main focusat any point in my life, I think
it's something I'll always readabout and always be interested
in and always explore andexperiment with and use to a
certain degree at certain times.
Yeah, I'm just hoping to helpwith the kind of reenchantment
(45:05):
project where we live in quite adisenchanted world.
So just sprinkling a little bitof enchantment into people's
minds and hopefully people atleast experiment with the stuff
that I talk about in the bookand hey, whether you're
skeptical or not, maybe it works.
What's the harm in trying?
Jake Kobrin (45:23):
Yeah, I love that and I'm so excited to receive
that wisdom from you and I loveit feels that you approach it in
a way.
That is, how do I say?
It's sort of like when I, fromme, viewing you from the outside
, knowing you're also a part ofme, it's sort of like I'm like,
yeah, well, of course it justmakes sense because it's sort of
like this all encapsulated sortof essence of who you are,
(45:47):
which, for me, when I view yourartwork, like to me that's sort
of like a healing kind of youcould say healing imprint.
But it's like there's afrequency that's coming through
your artwork.
That's already how do I say it,giving me information.
It's already working as a sortof form of magic, is how I
receive it.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Yeah, I had a conversation with Alex Gray, the
artist, recently about exactlythat, where we were talking
about Theergy, which is a bigpart of magic, and he said, well
, I think painting is Theergybecause you're calling upon you
know, this higher source, thisto become ensouled in the
(46:27):
artwork.
And I was like, yeah, that'swhat making a talisman is,
Exactly so.
You're making a talismanwhenever you create art,
especially when you're avisionary artist or you're a
Theergic artist, when you'reinclined to try to realize and
crystallize, materialize, hireforces in the world as a conduit
(46:48):
of creativity in the works ofart that you create.
And so there are a lot of thesekinds of magical ideas that
parallel with the creativeprocess.
And the writer Alan Moore, whois most famous as the author of
Watchmen and Veefer Vendetta, isa very influential comic book
writer, is also a practicingmagician and he has written a
(47:09):
lot about how art is magic.
And if you look at a lot of theactual phrases and
terminologies that are used inmagic, like the word grimoire
relates to grammar, oroftentimes they would call magic
the art and things like thisthat actually creativity is
indeed a magical process.
You're yielding and wieldingand manipulating symbols to
(47:34):
alter people's consciousness,and that's fundamentally what
magic is.
Jake Kobrin (47:39):
Well said.
I think that says it all.
Jake.
Oh so good, it's soul food.
It's 100% so beautiful toreceive.
That's exactly it.
Of course, I could talk to youforever because I have a million
more questions.
We're going to wrap up theconversation and I'm so excited
to talk to you again because Ihave a million more questions.
But to wrap it up for time'ssake, can you let our listener
(48:03):
know how can they find you?
How can they potentially workwith you?
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to share, anything
interesting coming up thatyou're offering?
Yeah, what would you like tooffer to our listener?
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Sure, yeah, I mean follow me on Instagram.
It's probably the best place tojust kind of keep track of
everything I'm doing.
I'm Cobra on Instagram, just mylast name.
I do want to one coaching andmentorship.
If somebody's interested inthat, they can just reach out to
me.
The book should be releasedearly next year, hopefully, but
we'll see.
Some time next year in 2024,it'll be out and I'm currently
(48:39):
working on some online programs.
So I'm kind of working ondeveloping my website and stuff
like that that would give moreinformation in terms of the
teaching and mentorship that Ido.
So just be on the lookout forthat.
There's going to be groupcourses.
I have online courses alreadythat exist I think you can go to
(48:59):
jacobronartcoursescom to findthat and I have a course on
magic as well, but I'm kind ofrevamping all that.
So stay tuned to that, andthere'll be more information
about my one-on-one coaching aswell as these group mentorship
programs and courses and thingsin the near future.
Jake Kobrin (49:17):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love
it.
So I'll add all of the links tothe show notes.
So for our listener who isitching to get in touch and to
check out you and your work,it's on the show notes.
So, that being said, it hasbeen my sincere pleasure to have
you on the show.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom, your heart, your
(49:38):
inspiration and just giving usso much literal soul food and
food for thought.
It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you for coming.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Thanks, elena.
Yeah, it was a real pleasurefor me as well, and thanks for
everybody for donating your timeto listen to this conversation.
Jake Kobrin (49:53):
Yes, I'm sure it has been as nourishing for them
as it has been for me.
So thank you to our listener.
And this has been anotherepisode of the Ode to Joy
podcast.
Elena Box (50:08):
I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Ode
to Joy podcast, dear listener,and if you liked it, go ahead.
Why not hit the subscribebutton?
And while you're there, why notthrow in a couple of stars,
maybe even a nice little review?
Think about it.
I would love to hear yourthoughts.
It is my sincere pleasure tobring you these conversations
(50:29):
every week and I'm just sendingyou so much love, and I'll talk
to you very soon.
Welcome to the Ode to Joy podcast, a show where we
talk about joy how do wecultivate it, how do we maintain
it and what are the things thatget in the way.
This week we bring you anotherpart of a very special season 2,
all about the inner muse, orinner genius, and this week we
are talking with visionaryartist Jake Cobrin.
(00:21):
I hope you enjoy.
Jake Kobrin (00:28):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to
another episode of the Ode toJoy podcast.
I'm your host, alana Box, andtoday I have the sincere
pleasure of bringing on to theshow Jake Cobrin.
Welcome, jake.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Thanks for having me, alana.
Jake Kobrin (00:48):
I'm so happy to have you here and to see your
beautiful face here.
So for those of our listenersour listener who is just
becoming introduced to you alittle bit about Jake.
He is a visionary artist andhe's an upcoming author and
educator in magic and Westernesotericism.
(01:08):
Very fancy, very cool guy andI'm so excited to have you on
the show.
Can you tell us I love to sortof land my guests and our
listener with just locating whenare you joining us right now on
this earth?
Where are you.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, so I'm currently in Denver, colorado.
I've been here for the lastcouple weeks and really enjoying
being here.
It's one of my favorite placesI've visited in the US so far.
Really awesome community.
A lot of people from my likearts community, the visionary
art world, live here.
There's also an amazing scenefor bass music, which I'm a big
fan of, so I've just reallyenjoyed my time here.
(01:49):
Denver has been really good tome, but leaving tonight to go
back to California.
Jake Kobrin (01:54):
Back to California, and then are you heading back
to Bali after California.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Eventually.
Yes, I'm a little uncertainexactly as to the time frame of
that, but I'm feeling probablyearly January to head back to
Bali.
I think I may stay in theStates for New Year's.
I might even come back to NewYork City possibly for that, and
maybe I'd see you there.
Jake Kobrin (02:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
We'll see.
But yeah, I'm sort of here withsupporting family, with some
stuff, and so I'm kind ofprolonging my trip to
accommodate that and it'll makesense in terms of when I'm meant
to return to Bali, but for nowI've actually really been
enjoying my time in the US.
Jake Kobrin (02:34):
That's beautiful.
That's wonderful.
I'm so happy that you're havingthis moment to just drop into
the States and I know you're aCalifornia native, you're from
California and you livegenerally full time in Bali,
which is where we met, yeah,yeah.
So, yeah, I just want to sharea little background of sort of
(02:54):
how we met.
So it was after it was like acouple of months after my father
passed, I had moved to Bali andI met you sort of in.
Oh, I met you during a comboceremony, do you remember?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
that I don't remember the camo ceremony.
Tell me more.
I mean, I've done camo like alot of times, so it's all just a
blur of sweat and vomit.
Jake Kobrin (03:16):
You were across the room from me.
I think that's where we met,but I think I'd sort of seen you
on the Bali scene before thatand then maybe that was like the
first time we were in a spacetogether, but we were in a combo
ceremony and you were very muchlike in a very deep process.
I remember you sharing.
I don't know if it happened toyou that time, but you're like
yeah, you know I've been doingthis and sometimes like stuff's
(03:36):
coming up and it's black and Iwas like, wow, southwile.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you had a deep process.
I was puking out some black gooat that point, getting those
demons out.
Jake Kobrin (03:46):
Getting the demons out Super casually.
It's a wonderful medicine fordoing that.
Definitely.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's a great way to bond with your friends and just
puke all over each other.
Jake Kobrin (03:55):
Yeah, it's definitely a bonding experience,
that's for sure.
It's like okay, so I'm justgoing to go through a casual
death and rebirth right next toyou, and it might get wild, it
might get crazy, I might passout, and it's going to go along
for the ride, yeah, yeah.
So that's so funny that youdon't remember that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
But yeah, you want to tell our listeners about what
cambo is if they don't know.
Jake Kobrin (04:16):
Yes, yes, so this is very good.
Thank you so much.
So for our listener who's justlearning, what is this combo?
What is it?
So?
I like to describe it Basicallyit's a poison that is taken off
of the back of frogs in theAmazonian rainforest and it is a
purging medicine.
(04:36):
So essentially, how it isadministered is I would
recommend definitely being inceremony with a skilled
practitioner and to prepare, youdrink about two liters of water
and you fast beforehand, andthen small little burns are made
on your body.
Generally it's done on the arms,but you can really do it sort
of anywhere on the body.
(04:56):
I've had it done in placeswhere I felt that there was some
really sort of huge likeemotional stagnation, demons,
literally like nasty stuff thatneeded to come out on my back.
I did it on my back once.
So these little burn marks areplaced and then the skin is
taken away and then the poisonessentially is placed in these
little dots, onto these dots,these little burn marks on your
(05:18):
skin, and then what takes placefor the next 20 or so minutes is
one of the most profound andintense purging experiences one
could have and it's a wonderfulway to process.
Yeah, if you've literally I sayit's almost like squeezing out
literally every single cell ofyour body, and your heart starts
(05:39):
beating really fast, and soit's just one of the most
powerful ways to literally clearout the body of actual toxins
and then also emotional toxins,and I mean for me, during my
grief process, it was one of themost powerful tools to help
release that.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean you're basically are retching and
vomiting and you feel likeyou're dying and your face
swells up and you get sweaty andhot and your heart's beating
really fast for like 20, 30minutes and then, and then it's
chill and you feel so goodafterwards.
Jake Kobrin (06:11):
You feel amazing.
I always try to whenever I tellpeople about this or like that
sounds awful and I'm like,actually it's one of the best
things you could possibly do.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I mean, I've done it a lot of times and every single
time I do it I'm like why am Idoing this to myself?
But then afterwards I'm like,oh, that's why.
This is why you really do feelfantastic.
Afterwards, you feel like a newperson.
Jake Kobrin (06:31):
You're like a brand new baby, newborn baby, you
know, and something that I'veheard is that it's something
that the story I was told, thatthis was something that sort of
the Amazonian warriors used todo before going out on a hunt,
because afterwards your sensesare super fine tuned and super
sharp and I definitely feel thatevery single time afterwards
(06:52):
I'm just like it's like matrixlevel, just like awareness.
Elena Box (06:56):
Sensitivity.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yeah, good times.
Cambo ceremony is a new food.
Yes, great place to meetsomebody, great place to meet
somebody.
Jake Kobrin (07:06):
So that's where we met.
And then after that, you know,I we were just sort of in the
same circles, I think, and thenI was sort of following along.
You were we're doing a lot ofartwork at that time and one
night I found you.
I was driving home up intoPenestanon where I lived, and
you were doing some street art,like I think it was something
like one in the morning.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Do you remember this?
I do remember that, yeah.
Jake Kobrin (07:28):
And I was like hey what are you doing?
I think yeah, so you're doingthis beautiful mural up on one
of the walls in Penestanon andyou were like my phone just died
.
It was pretty late, so I waslike, and you, I think you lived
kind of far away.
I was like you know what?
I have an extra bedroom, comeon in.
And then you came and youstayed and it was.
It was just one of those kindof fun like moments where you
(07:48):
know it was like all right, comeon in.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Cool classic moments.
Yeah, that mural survived for awhile.
Actually, it was up for a fewyears, I think, before it got
eventually blasted over.
Now it's not there anymore, butthat's just how it is.
Jake Kobrin (08:01):
That's how it is with street art, though I
imagine is that it's, it's sortof one of these things.
It's like those, the mandalasthat they make with the sand.
You know, it's like, yeah,eventually.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I think that wall eventually got purchased and now
it's like there's some lameadvertisement on it.
Jake Kobrin (08:16):
Lame, not so good.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
No art anymore.
Jake Kobrin (08:19):
No art anywhere.
So, ok, so let's get into thetopic du jour.
So it's just so wonderful, likewe met 2016 and I've been
following along on your journeysince then and just seeing
everything that you've beensharing and I'm super inspired
by your work and your dedicationto your artistry and, yeah,
(08:39):
yeah, I'm just like, oh, thisguy he's got it, so all right.
So topic du jour is all aboutour inner muse, our inner genius
, and I love to speak withartists because I think it's
something that's well, I think,in all terms of creative sort of
output.
It's sort of like a dance and arelationship that one has to
(08:59):
enter with their inner muse.
And so I'm actually reallycurious for you what comes up
when you first, sort of when youthink of the muse or that
internal genius, like, whatcomes up for you when you think
of that, like this also referredto some time as an inner daemon
or inner demon, which is notnecessarily like a bad thing,
but but it's sort of like thisother entity, so to speak, that
(09:21):
lives with you throughout yourlife.
Yeah, so what comes up for you?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Well, I mean, I'm very interested in magic, as you
know, and so I don't mindthinking of these things almost
as separate intelligences orhigher intelligences or even
different octaves of ourselves.
I think it might be a littlebit of a misnomer to even
consider the existence ofseparate entities in general,
like even you and I to somedegree are connected as one
(09:45):
entity or one field of awarenessor consciousness, but within
that there are distinctions interms of kind of energies that
can be perceived as separate, Iguess I would say.
And so I don't mind looking atthe concept of the muse and the
way the Greeks looked at it,which was actually, as muses,
like separate sort of spiritsthat would sort of joy, joy,
(10:07):
ride their favorite artists andaccommodate them in the pursuit
of creating whatever wants to bemoved through them.
One of the books that reallyinfluenced me as an artist is
the Artist's Way, and the mainsort of principle behind that
book is to consider creativityas something that is made
through you, through the divine,or through the diamond, which,
(10:31):
as you mentioned, is sort ofanother word for the higher self
or the muse or things like this.
But I think, relaxing ownershipover your creative pursuits and
seeing yourself more as like aconduit for things to come
through you is helpful.
You know, even as we're havingthis conversation right now,
we've engaged in the practiceand understanding of the English
(10:54):
language well enough that wecan speak it fluently, so that
we're unencumbered by having tosort of think about the
mechanics of language whilewe're speaking.
But now, having that fluency,we can kind of relax into it and
what?
The words that are comingthrough and the conversation
that is unfolding is veryintuitive.
It more comes through us.
We're not, like I don't know,thinking and grasping of every
(11:17):
single word and moment, of whatare we going to talk about?
No one does that right.
So that same sort of practicecan be applied to any art form,
where the guitarist learns theirscales or, you know, the dancer
drills the particular movementsthat are fundamental to their
dance form, or the painterlearns how to use their
(11:38):
materials well enough that theydon't have to think about it as
much in terms of the technique,to where they become fluent in
it and they can speak thatlanguage and then open
themselves up to just allow forthat muse to kind of flow
through them.
You know, and it is thisbalance and this is what I've
observed, not only in my ownpractice but with the best
(11:59):
artists that I've known, there'sa balance between the
discipline and the commitment tothe practice and actually
having to create regularity andconsistency and showing up to
create work and the sort ofletting go into that, the
perfect conditions.
You know the divine set ofconditions that allow us for any
sort of work of art tospontaneously emerge.
(12:21):
Because if you talk to anybodywho's, you know, an artist, it
is like a spontaneous emergentthing where you can.
You can never really recreatethe conditions that create the
best works of art that they'vemade.
You know it's kind of like a.
There is a sort of divineorchestration in that works of
art come into being when theyneed to come into being through
(12:41):
the artists, when the conditionsare right, and there's so many,
so many different factors haveto align in terms of that
artist's state of consciousness,the environment that they're in
, what they, you know they'resurrounded by and the kinds of
energies and experiences thatthey've had recently or are
currently experiencing.
You know so many differentfactors have to come into being
(13:03):
and even that, if you look atall the different causal factors
that come into being, for awork of art to be realized
should help to sort of detachthis sort of ownership that the
artist needs to impose over whatthey're creating, that kind of
egoic assumption that I'm theone doing this, to relax into
understanding that there arethese forces, these muses, these
(13:23):
these, these demonic forcesthat actually do influence and
inspire us, and that they'rethere to be called upon through
the right set of circumstanceswhen necessary.
Jake Kobrin (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, ooh.
You just gave me so much foodfor thought and I love how
deeply you understand this in areally embodied way.
It's juicy.
So there's so much.
I want to ask you and I want tosort of rewind back to, like
Baby Jake and I'm curious, likewas there a moment for you?
(13:58):
Or how did you like first comein contact with your inner
genius, your inner muse, yourinner demon, like was?
There a moment, or how did itcome in?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, Well, I actually think children are
really naturally connected tothat Just all children are, you
know, and it comes through andplay it comes through and the
natural faculties and capacitiesof the imagination that
children have and the sort ofmost children have, a kind of
innate sense of self confidence.
That's really refreshing.
It's like it's nice to bearound, just, you know, to get
(14:30):
around kids or kind of like that, in a way that adults are not.
And so, yeah, I think it's moreof the better.
Question is almost like whendid that stop, you know, for
most people?
I think Picasso said somethinglike all children are artists.
The difficulty is, is themstaying an artist as they become
adults, or something like that.
That's a bastardization of afamous Picasso quote.
(14:52):
And, yeah, you know, I can'treally like pinpoint a specific
experience.
That was like the first time,you know, I made art or
something like that, because Iwas always creating when I was a
kid, through drawing through.
I used to like sculpting a lotwhen I was a kid and I'm
fortunate that, you know, my momwould kind of facilitate that
(15:12):
as kind of a play experience forme and my sister and for our
friends when I was growing up.
It's just like a way to passtime.
But yeah, I mean, you know, if Ithink that sort of what sensors
that is, is the inner critic,the sort of self condemnatory
voice that lives in our headsthat says this is bad, or you're
(15:32):
going to be shamed for this, oryou know you're not an artist,
or this is ridiculous, or whatwould your parents think of this
, or whatever, I'll never be asgood as so and so.
And kids seem generally devoidof that voice and it's something
that gets sort of indoctrinatedinto one's mind as they age and
(15:54):
develop, often through parentalforces or through teachers.
And a lot of, a lot ofliberating your creativity has
to do with like overcoming thoseinner voices and even realizing
that they're not your voice,that they're not inherent to who
you are, that maybe there was acertain kind of trauma and you
can actually do kind of likeactive work in that regard, to
(16:18):
like write a, write a fuck youletter to that teacher that you
know condemned your, yourdrawing when you were in first
grade or whatever it is.
But it could be that simple.
You know, it can sometimes belike a teacher makes a bad
remark when you're like 12.
And then for the rest of yourlife.
Your creativity is kind ofinhibited by that, because
(16:39):
you're afraid of what otherpeople are going to think from
then on.
Jake Kobrin (16:44):
So I'm curious for you did you go through a process
like that you know, I knowyou've mentioned how art was
really helpful for you, like inyour teenage years, and was that
?
Was there a process for youwhere you had to write a sort of
like FU letter where you knowfor you?
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I mean yes, but in a not so much with visual
arts.
You know for me.
You know for me, I overcame alot of sort of inhibitions
around my levels of selfconfidence as a person in
general, socially and in termsof presenting myself and
especially in sort of any kindof performance context or public
(17:23):
speaking kind of context.
Music was one area which I hada lot of shit around.
I'm sorry if I'm not supposedto cut it.
Jake Kobrin (17:31):
It's okay, you can, I don't know Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So you know, when I was younger, like I wanted to be
a musician and then I was inthis band and I was the singer
and guitarist of this band.
When I was a teenager and I gotlike I got booted out of the
band because I was too fat.
Like that's a, that's a realstory.
And so the, the other guitaristin the band is like you either
(17:59):
have to lose weight or you gotto get you're out of the band.
So I got kicked out of the bandbecause I was too fat and that
really messed up my, my, my selfconfidence around being a
guitar player and a musician fora while.
And so, you know, visual artwas less loud, it was more
ignorable, if that makes sense.
(18:20):
And so I took to visual artsbecause I could do it in a way
that was like under the radar,where I wasn't getting publicly
chastised for it as much, and Ikind of moved away from music
because music was more in yourface, it was more I had to like
really put myself out and belike a performer in that, and so
that took a while to kind oflike overcome that stuff.
(18:41):
When I was, when I was a littlebit older, I started attending
the School of Rock, which isactually like what they based
that Jack Black movie off ofAmazing, and the Paul Green
School of Rock which was.
It was like a kind of youngperson's program to learn how to
play rock music and so wouldplay in bands and stuff of that
and then we would doperformances and that was really
(19:02):
encouraging, you know.
That really helped to kind ofovercome some of that stuff, you
know, and now I DJ and I doactually still I perform, you
know, I do poetry performancesand public speaking gigs and
stuff.
So I've really overcome that,that sense of not wanting to be
seen, are not wanting to bechastised, are not wanting to be
in the limelight.
(19:22):
That that trauma that was therebut definitely existed for me.
Jake Kobrin (19:26):
Yeah, I think that's definitely like a
significant amount of trauma formany artists really people is
is that fear of judgment, andyou know that's a very traumatic
thing that you went through,because I think also, when
you're putting yourself outthere and you're having like a
public face, in many ways it ishow you're being perceived, but
then when you receive feedbackthat that's not good enough,
(19:48):
then it's just like terrifying.
So I can understand why youknow, turning to visual arts and
allowing yourself to speak inthat way must have been really
helpful for you, and I'm alsoreally like amazed and like
congratulating you for movingthrough that, because I think
that's something that hinders somany people for so long.
(20:10):
So, like, go you, so happy foryou and thank you, thank you.
This brings me to my nextquestion.
This is something that, like,I've been carrying, something
that you shared, and you knowthis is one of these things
where, like, I don't know whenyou made this video, if you
really understood how deeplydeeply this would impact people,
but something that has reallystayed with me.
(20:30):
A few years ago I don't evenknow when this was you shared a
video About your process of whenyou chose to get your face
tattoos and the way that I tookit was really like this sort of
declaration, like when I thinkof.
It wasn't for me how I receivedit, wasn't like this fuck you,
but it was just this, like I'mgonna stand and being an artist
(20:52):
so securely.
I think the way that you put itwas like so that it doesn't
give me an option to back downand say, okay, I'm not an artist
anymore was like a fulldedication To your life as an
artist.
So I'm really curious can youshare a little bit about that
process for you?
Speaker 3 (21:07):
yeah, yeah, I do remember making that video and I
was basically saying that youcan Make yourself unemployable,
which I've, I've, I've strove tomake myself unemployable so
that I have no choice but to bean artist.
I think nowadays, unfortunately, it doesn't really make that
much of a difference, but itfelt like it made a difference
at the time.
(21:27):
I could probably still get ajob if I wanted to, but you know
, I was inspired.
There's this, there's a storyin the book thinking grow rich,
which I've read a few times.
Still not rich yet, but I'mthinking about it.
Jake Kobrin (21:42):
Yes, which is very good.
Elena Box (21:44):
Yes, it's part of the process.
Yes, at the battle.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
And there's a story where, where they talk about a
commander of an army arriving onthe shores with ships onto the
battlegrounds and commandingafter the army dismounts the
ships and goes on to the shoresto burn the ships, and the idea
is that that army now has nooption of retreat and so they
(22:09):
must make the best of theircircumstances and move forwards
skillfully in battle to overcomethe other army.
And so I feel the same way.
If you're gonna be an artistand this is nuanced because you
know it's not like every personis at the phase, given their
life circumstance, to completelyquit their day job and to just
(22:30):
go fully into being an artist.
But I think that beginning tomove into that direction as much
as possible, and then at acertain point you really do need
to make that leap into being afull time artist.
And there are ways in whichhaving the comfort or security
blanket of kind of anotherincome through a day job that
(22:51):
can actually sometimes inhibitpeople's development as an
artist.
That sort of being forced toactually be an artist in a real
way, to professionally be anartist, and that that sort of
obligation of I actually have todo this in order to survive.
Sometimes I can really Put afire under people that can
(23:11):
actually really get them goingin the right direction.
So you know whether that was itwas not a conscious decision at
the time.
I got my face tattoos,certainly consequence of it, and
I I don't regret that,certainly yeah yeah, I think
it's so inspiring and I reallylike it's to me.
Jake Kobrin (23:31):
I've always really lived my life being guided by
the fool.
You know that, that sort of thefools journey of jumping off
the cliff and not really knowingif you're gonna land.
And I've gone through cycleafter cycle of like okay, it's
time to jump off the cliff againand we're just gonna see where
we land.
And I'm just curious for youand your experience, like Was
(23:51):
there anything?
Even though you are making thissort of declaration of like,
okay, I'm jumping off the cliff,like I'm just sort of curious
for you.
Was there a way and I'm really,really interested to hear if
there was any part of yourpersonal practice I know you
work a lot with magic andalchemy like, was there any part
of that that you brought intoyour journey that helped you
(24:14):
move through these blocks of thefears?
And what were the fears for you?
And was there a way that youcould just like, how did you
transmute the fears as youstepped into that?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah, I've kind of crafted a lifestyle or a
consistent practice of Likedoing things that I feel
initially afraid to do, and forme that's not only the most
there's so much growth thatcomes out of that but also it's
a really rewarding experience,is like the kind of thing you
(24:45):
can get addicted to, wherethere's so much energy that gets
released by overcoming themental barriers that exist in
doing something that you feelinhibited to do.
So a lot of my journey as anindividual, in my personal sort
of transformation process andspiritual development, has been
(25:06):
becoming increasingly like lessinhibited over time, you know,
and moving in the direction ofwhere I feel inhibited and
pushing past those barriers,because really those are like
our demons, right, those arethese entities that exist in our
minds, but we're not that thefact that you can have a
perspective on that and be seeit signifies that you're not,
(25:28):
that you're, you're experiencingthat as something sort of alien
from yourself, right, right.
And so recognizing that fear assomething alien from yourself
that you can choose to eitherbuy into or not has been helpful
for me, and throwing myselfinto situations that I've been
afraid of.
Oftentimes those are situationsthat Involve the loss of
(25:50):
control or even confrontationwith death to a certain degree,
things like ayahuasca ceremoniesor other types of ego
obliterating type experiences,has been really helpful for me
to create some kind of like coresense of bravery, I guess you
could say, to move through theworld with, so that the things
that often inhibit people like Ican't do that thing, that would
(26:14):
be inappropriate or whateverlike just don't bother me as
much because it's like sheesh, Ijust died, you know, like
literally, and it wasn't thatbad.
I guess I was able to getthrough that.
You know there's kinds of ordeals and initiations
Spiritually that are actually abig part of our ancestry and
history is humans, but that arekind of lacking in our western
(26:36):
world, I think are reallyimportant to engender people
with a kind of spiritualstrength and self confidence.
Jake Kobrin (26:43):
That then is very practically useful in engaging
with life and it's uncertaintiesyeah, yeah, I think it's like
this overarching fear of deaththat many people constantly live
through their entire lives and,just as you said, we are
lacking in our culture thesesort of moments of initiation
throughout our lifetimes, and soI I really embrace these
(27:07):
moments of understanding okay,so it's time for another
initiation, it's time foranother death.
And even if I know like cool, soit's time for another death,
like I'm still scared, you know,like I'm still like all right,
cool, so we're gonna pushourselves to jump off that cliff
.
And I'd be curious For you, youknow how would you recommend if
(27:29):
someone was like cool, so Iknow I need to go through some
kind of initiation where, justas you said, like I'm leaving,
I'm burning the ships behind me.
I know I need to move towardsthis in order to fully embrace
my gifts, my life.
Like so I'm leaving, leavingthe past behind, old self is me,
of me is gone.
What would you recommend, likewhat comes to mind for you, if
(27:52):
you were to sort of create likea, like a prescription, like a
soul medicine prescription forsomebody who's eager for
something like this?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's a combination of things and everybody's going to
be wired differently and so noteverybody's going to be at a,
not everybody's going to havethe same attitudes or
inclinations towards themselvesand towards their experiences.
That I do like personally, Iget I get Like annoyed with
myself.
If I get frustrated with myself, like when I, when I'm seeing
(28:24):
myself be inhibited, like Idon't tolerate that very, very
much.
You know, I kind of like I seethat happening, I see myself
being afraid, you know, being alittle bitch, and I like I get
annoyed by it and I'm like, dude, come on, like you gotta be
(28:45):
kidding, you know what I mean.
And so I kind of like there's apart of me that sort of like
this I don't like rowdy olderbrother within myself or
something that kind of likepushes the sort of weaker
version of myself that livesinside of me.
It's like the stronger versionversus the weaker version inside
of me.
That kind of like is likealright, come on.
Like just just do the thing gofor it.
Like stop being a baby.
(29:06):
So I I've developed that,probably through practice, it's
sort of invented that that otherversion of myself, and now they
both coexist sort ofuncomfortably at times within
myself, but I feel that it'ssomething that I think is
important to emphasize in thisand courage and I do think that
courage is a big part ofspirituality and spiritual
(29:26):
growth and Individual personalgrowth in general in a way that
can be under emphasize, becausewe live in such a safety culture
and actually a lot of growthcomes from doing things that are
not safe and yet feelingConfident in one's own ability
to handle situations, even ifyou're in circumstances that are
unsafe, and you're never notgoing to feel afraid, right, you
(29:50):
know, like if I am, if I'mgoing into some kind of
initiation experience, I do feelfear around that.
Whether that's some kind ofintense magical ritual or
initiation or a deal, apsychedelic thing, I do feel
fear.
You know, I get to a certainpoint where, like I'm like, okay
, I'm doing this and I surrenderbecause once I'm doing it,
(30:11):
there's like I have no choice,it's gonna happen, I just have
to go along with the right.
So there's more fear and thatlack of commitment, but like,
the minute I'm committed to andexperience, the fear sorts of
sort of diminishes because like,well, I've got no choice but to
go through this.
But that fear is healthy, itshows a certain degree of
self-concern you know it's notabsolute nihilism and that
(30:34):
self-concern and that sort offear is important, but yet the
ability to feel that and to moveforwards anyway is kind of the
gold.
And yeah, I mean action, youknow like to keep moving, to
keep moving Moment by moment.
You know, we've all been insituations and we're all going
to be in situations, especiallywith the way things are going in
(30:56):
a radically changing world,where we're thrust into the
unknown, where things that wereonce working for us are not
going to be working for usanymore.
We're gonna have to learn andadapt and figure out new ways to
exist and to survive and tothrive in the world.
And you just, you get, you gotto like kind of fuck around and
find out, you know, like it'sonly through, it's only through
(31:20):
experimentation, and To see thatsort of feedback loop of, okay,
that worked or that didn't.
And I really look at, I try tolook at almost everything I do
from that kind of perspective of.
What would happen if I did this,or like what would happen if I
did that, and and not, I guess,like having that attitude
towards things, take some of thepressure off, because I know
(31:42):
that I don't know and I'm in aprocess of discovering, because
my life path is pretty unique,so I'm gonna be forced to, you
know, make mistakes and learnfrom them, and I don't mind
making mistakes and learningfrom them.
You know, and and I apply thatto to everything you know, I
apply that to my career, I applythat to dating, I apply that to
my health and fitness andwhatever.
(32:05):
It's just it's like we'll trythat out, see how that goes.
Oh, that didn't work.
Okay, learn something from thatthough, you know, but you have
to actually engage with life toget the find out part, you know
100%.
Jake Kobrin (32:19):
What keeps coming to mind is the sort of that
saying of like, feel the fearand do it anyway.
Yeah, and it also comes to mindwhen I was thinking about this.
It feels like in our culturethere's so much.
Obviously I think there'sneeded sort of education about
like, how do I say like, how tobe better humans in general,
towards ourselves, towards eachother.
I think, like the world ofmental health, like there's
(32:40):
still, you know, a lot of workto be done, but we're kind of
more aware, I think.
But in that way it's almostlike our world, at least here
and and from where I am and LongIsland, new York, it's almost
like many things are sort oflike bumper, like bumper padded,
you know, almost like kitty,kitty proved.
You know, like when you go intoa house and they've covered up
all the corners and it's likeokay, but it's gonna be soft and
(33:02):
cushy and you know, don't,don't, don't do anything too
crazy, but it'll be good,because you know how to keep
your head down and just followwhat you're supposed to do, and
you know what I was thinking,and I just feel like sharing
this, because this is what cameto mind this morning.
It's like I wonder, though, howmuch those sort of warnings
about like well, that's a redflag and you got to be careful,
(33:23):
is Maybe also hindering us insome way, because I think the
struggle is sort of what canmake you great in certain
situations.
You know, for me I've alwaysframed things in terms of like,
why went through some of themost insane pain Anyone can go
through?
And wow, there's so much.
It's like it's the hero'sjourney, which is like I love.
(33:43):
This is, I went through theshit in order to get the gold
and it's.
You know, I wouldn't wish theshit on anybody else, but like,
wow, that was some shit.
And I just thought of something, because this morning I was
thinking about the relationshipbetween Frida Kahlo and Diego
Rivera.
And I sort of I don't know why.
This is what came up and I wassort of thinking like if these
Instagram relationship Experts,you know, would have had Frida
(34:07):
and Diego to sort of think about, like well, that's a red flag
and that's a red flag.
And like, definitely, this istoxic, you shouldn't be with
each other, like listen, Ididn't know them, but I've know
enough about their lives to knowthat, yes, their relationship
was toxic in many ways and theyloved each other and they made
each other some of the mostInfluential artists of their
(34:28):
time and of our time.
So it's kind of like, yeah, itwas problematic, but like it's
almost like that, like the gritin the oyster that makes the
pearl.
So it's like can we say thatthe grit is bad and toxic if it
created a pearl?
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah, I mean there's a relationship between chaos and
creativity and Certainly, fromwhat I know about their
relationship, it was prettychaotic.
But Frida I don't know aboutDiego, but Frida for sure, like
loved the pain- you know what Imean Like she was very inspired
by it.
So she, she had a kind ofaddiction to pain that created
(35:06):
beautiful art and that workedfor her.
It's not necessarily foreverybody, but it worked for her
.
But I think it's like what youwere saying about the hero's
journey, or it's like are youthe protagonist or are you the
you know supporting role orwhatever?
And it's like if you're aprotagonist, you're gonna have
to go through some shit.
Read any story and theprotagonist goes through
(35:28):
challenges, always the worst.
You know, the protagonistalways goes through the worst,
yeah, the biggest challenges ofany other character in any story
.
And so expect that if you wantto step into that Role in the
world, if you're a protagonist,you're gonna go through some
stuff.
So it's not something to beafraid of, because everything
(35:49):
has kind of like its own reward.
And yeah, I mean there areexamples, not just Frida, but
also people like Vincent vanGogh, who had mental illness and
His personal suffering whichwas immense, not to be
understated I wouldn't want tobe him led to Tremendously
beautiful works of art, andthere there is a relationship
(36:09):
between suffering, there's arelationship between the kind of
emotional chaos and wildness ofthat, and Creativity and art,
sometimes for some reason andI've lived through my own
Versions of that at times, youknow, and and yeah it's, it's
interesting too because, likefor me, some of my most sort of
like craziest, most drug-fueled,most perhaps Unbalanced times
(36:34):
in my life were also verycreative.
So you know, and then maybesometimes where I'm a little too
comfortable, a little toobalanced and healthy, maybe I'm
a little less creative in acertain kind of way.
So it's, it's a fine line andyou have to your priorities also
change, I think as you navigatelife.
I'm a little more boring nowthan I was when I was a bit
younger, in my wild 20s orwhatever, but you know, because
(36:57):
I'm 30 now, I'm getting up thereNow, so I've taken things a
little more easy.
But yeah, there is a there is afine line between chaos and
creativity, for sure.
Jake Kobrin (37:10):
Yeah, there's so much more I want to ask you
about, though this is what wasreally coming to mind that I'd
love to ask you about.
You know, when we think aboutthe hero's journey, I would say
all myths that you read involvethe protagonist Finding a mentor
, and so I'm really curious foryou what has your relationship
(37:31):
with mentors?
What has that been?
Or they're very?
Are there any specific mentorsyou can think of, like what,
yeah, what?
What has your journey beenthrough finding mentors?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah, I mean I've had a few.
I mean the artist, androidJones, has been like an older
brother to me.
You know.
I met him when I was very youngand he's been with me through
my life sense and Kind of.
We never had like any kind oflike I don't know, official,
like mentor, studentrelationship, but it's more like
he's guided me personallythrough, like personal advice to
(38:01):
me and his kind of Examplethroughout my life and guided me
on my journey as an artist, andso I consider him like a mentor
whether I don't know if he's,if he's listening now I don't
know if you, if he would see itthe same way, or whatever, but
like he's kind of like an olderbrother to me, you know, and so
he's somebody that I've beeninfluenced by pretty heavily and
(38:23):
I I'm willing to acknowledgethat.
And you know I had a I had amentor, like an official mentor
relationship with Judy KyleVales, who is my tattoo mentor.
That was a bit more technicalin nature in terms of really
learning tattooing as an artform and less about like the
path of an artist, which is likefor Andrew, I feel like it was
(38:44):
more of like who are you at?
Like what is being an artistmean and like learning through
his example, like okay, likethis is what being an artist is
to me.
I did learn stuff from him interms of the technicalities and
making art as well, but I feellike it was more like the spirit
behind it, if that makes sense.
And yeah, you know, I've workedwith a lot of different coaches
on different things and Been indifferent schools and had a lot
(39:07):
of different teachers, all ofwhom I would credit, in
different ways.
I've had mentors also in myspiritual practice or in my
magical practice as well, andyeah, they've all, they've all
inspired me in different ways.
I guess for me, like when Ilook at my relationship with
Andrew, it was like organic.
If that, it was like you know,we never we never like had a
(39:29):
contract or anything.
It was just like something thatkind of.
That's just happened over time.
And I feel like the realmentorships are often like that.
It's not necessarily like yougo to the academy and you fill
out the paperwork to have yourmentor and I have done that and
I have gone to schools like that, but those people oftentimes
are not really those guides forme, but the real guides in our
lives I feel like they come intoour lives naturally and I've
(39:52):
had other like other reallybesides just Andrew have had
other.
They often for me they take thearchetype of kind of like an
older brother.
You know, they're often men,they're often a bit older and
like further down the road thatI am and they they kind of
initiate me into certain ways ofbeing through our friendship
and and they and I wouldconsider them sort of like
(40:13):
Mentors.
So I think there's somethingabout those kinds of
relationships that unfoldnaturally and organically, like
the guides that come into ourlives and I would say that that
just comes about, perhaps thatthose are like past-life
contracts, who knows, but it's.
It's just like about kind offollowing the whispers, meeting
the people you feel and calledto meet.
I don't feel like I have anymentees in my life in that way,
(40:37):
but I'm open to it.
I don't have any long-standingrelationships with people that
are in a younger stage ofdevelopment at this point, who
are looking to grow and findinfluence through me and my path
.
But I'm open to that, the sameway that I met Android Jones
when I was like 14.
(40:58):
If I met a 14-year-old versionof myself out there that I came
into contact with that I couldhelp in some way.
I'd be really, really open tothat.
I feel like, based on the factthat I've had other experiences
that have supported my growth asa developing artist, I almost
feel like it's my duty toprovide that in a certain way.
Jake Kobrin (41:17):
Well, I'm excited for you to step into that.
I would also just add that Ithink there probably are little
14-year-old versions of you whoare watching what you do.
I'm just saying maybe theyhaven't shown themselves yet.
But even what you've beensharing lately about mental
health and how you've workedthrough it and the practices
that you use, I can imaginethere are so many people who are
(41:40):
receiving that and how crucialit is for you to be so open and
vulnerable and really sharingyour wisdom.
I would also say I'm verycurious to round out the
conversation because I'm reallyexcited to hear you mentioned
you're an upcoming author.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what's coming through you
and what the future mentees canlearn from?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah, sure I did write this book in a way with
that intention.
I wanted to write a book that Iwould hope would reach a
younger version of myself in away.
That would be like a Trojanhorse in a certain way, because
I'm trying to package self-helpideas and stuff in a way.
That's kind of cool it is cool,jay, it is cool.
(42:27):
It's a book about magic andoccultism, which is something
I've been really fascinated withfor the majority of my life.
I got into when I was ateenager.
If you read Alistair Crowleyand these other occult writers,
it's really dense andimpenetrable.
Now I've developed the abilityto understand Crowley's writing
and actually get what he'stalking about from a perspective
(42:51):
of magical practice and thingslike that.
It takes a lot of prioreducation to be able to
understand those books.
I'm writing this book almost asa translator, trying to
condense and assimilate in theclearest, most immediate
language I can.
Somebody that perhaps has neverread any books about magic to
be able to really understandwhat these concepts are pointing
(43:13):
towards and what the practicesare pointing towards and how to
do them.
There's a lot of wellness stuffin it.
The book's called Magic andSelf-Transformation.
It's really aimed atself-transformation,
self-authorship and authority,being able to become who you
want to become and be the bestand most uninhibited version of
(43:34):
yourself.
So there's wellness practicesin it.
There's ethical practices in it.
These are things that are notnormally in magical literature.
That's why I say it's like aTrojan horse, because I feel
that a lot of people get intomagic because of some kind of
motivation for some kind ofpower over their circumstances,
but what they really want us tobe happy.
I put that pretty fundamentalto the book where it's like,
(43:59):
okay, right up front, here's thewellness stuff that if you do
this you might become a happierperson than you might not need
to do all this arcane magicalstuff to try to bend reality to
your will.
I mean, it's fun, it's good tobe able to do that too.
It'll always fascinate me interms of just having my own
experiences that show thatthat's something real.
(44:19):
That goes against sort of itdoesn't fully go against sort of
the quantum model of science,but it goes against a lot of
other sort of ingrainedassumptions around what reality
is and how it works.
But it's just endlesslyfascinating to me that magic is
something real, that itapparently works.
(44:40):
It's quite unclear as toexactly how it works or why or
what's going on with that.
I think I'll always befascinated by that.
Whether that is my main focusat any point in my life, I think
it's something I'll always readabout and always be interested
in and always explore andexperiment with and use to a
certain degree at certain times.
Yeah, I'm just hoping to helpwith the kind of reenchantment
(45:05):
project where we live in quite adisenchanted world.
So just sprinkling a little bitof enchantment into people's
minds and hopefully people atleast experiment with the stuff
that I talk about in the bookand hey, whether you're
skeptical or not, maybe it works.
What's the harm in trying?
Jake Kobrin (45:23):
Yeah, I love that and I'm so excited to receive
that wisdom from you and I loveit feels that you approach it in
a way.
That is, how do I say?
It's sort of like when I, fromme, viewing you from the outside
, knowing you're also a part ofme, it's sort of like I'm like,
yeah, well, of course it justmakes sense because it's sort of
like this all encapsulated sortof essence of who you are,
(45:47):
which, for me, when I view yourartwork, like to me that's sort
of like a healing kind of youcould say healing imprint.
But it's like there's afrequency that's coming through
your artwork.
That's already how do I say it,giving me information.
It's already working as a sortof form of magic, is how I
receive it.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Yeah, I had a conversation with Alex Gray, the
artist, recently about exactlythat, where we were talking
about Theergy, which is a bigpart of magic, and he said, well
, I think painting is Theergybecause you're calling upon you
know, this higher source, thisto become ensouled in the
(46:27):
artwork.
And I was like, yeah, that'swhat making a talisman is,
Exactly so.
You're making a talismanwhenever you create art,
especially when you're avisionary artist or you're a
Theergic artist, when you'reinclined to try to realize and
crystallize, materialize, hireforces in the world as a conduit
(46:48):
of creativity in the works ofart that you create.
And so there are a lot of thesekinds of magical ideas that
parallel with the creativeprocess.
And the writer Alan Moore, whois most famous as the author of
Watchmen and Veefer Vendetta, isa very influential comic book
writer, is also a practicingmagician and he has written a
(47:09):
lot about how art is magic.
And if you look at a lot of theactual phrases and
terminologies that are used inmagic, like the word grimoire
relates to grammar, oroftentimes they would call magic
the art and things like thisthat actually creativity is
indeed a magical process.
You're yielding and wieldingand manipulating symbols to
(47:34):
alter people's consciousness,and that's fundamentally what
magic is.
Jake Kobrin (47:39):
Well said.
I think that says it all.
Jake.
Oh so good, it's soul food.
It's 100% so beautiful toreceive.
That's exactly it.
Of course, I could talk to youforever because I have a million
more questions.
We're going to wrap up theconversation and I'm so excited
to talk to you again because Ihave a million more questions.
But to wrap it up for time'ssake, can you let our listener
(48:03):
know how can they find you?
How can they potentially workwith you?
Is there anything else thatyou'd like to share, anything
interesting coming up thatyou're offering?
Yeah, what would you like tooffer to our listener?
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Sure, yeah, I mean follow me on Instagram.
It's probably the best place tojust kind of keep track of
everything I'm doing.
I'm Cobra on Instagram, just mylast name.
I do want to one coaching andmentorship.
If somebody's interested inthat, they can just reach out to
me.
The book should be releasedearly next year, hopefully, but
we'll see.
Some time next year in 2024,it'll be out and I'm currently
(48:39):
working on some online programs.
So I'm kind of working ondeveloping my website and stuff
like that that would give moreinformation in terms of the
teaching and mentorship that Ido.
So just be on the lookout forthat.
There's going to be groupcourses.
I have online courses alreadythat exist I think you can go to
(48:59):
jacobronartcoursescom to findthat and I have a course on
magic as well, but I'm kind ofrevamping all that.
So stay tuned to that, andthere'll be more information
about my one-on-one coaching aswell as these group mentorship
programs and courses and thingsin the near future.
Jake Kobrin (49:17):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love
it.
So I'll add all of the links tothe show notes.
So for our listener who isitching to get in touch and to
check out you and your work,it's on the show notes.
So, that being said, it hasbeen my sincere pleasure to have
you on the show.
Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom, your heart, your
(49:38):
inspiration and just giving usso much literal soul food and
food for thought.
It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you for coming.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Thanks, elena.
Yeah, it was a real pleasurefor me as well, and thanks for
everybody for donating your timeto listen to this conversation.
Jake Kobrin (49:53):
Yes, I'm sure it has been as nourishing for them
as it has been for me.
So thank you to our listener.
And this has been anotherepisode of the Ode to Joy
podcast.
Elena Box (50:08):
I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Ode
to Joy podcast, dear listener,and if you liked it, go ahead.
Why not hit the subscribebutton?
And while you're there, why notthrow in a couple of stars,
maybe even a nice little review?
Think about it.
I would love to hear yourthoughts.
It is my sincere pleasure tobring you these conversations
(50:29):
every week and I'm just sendingyou so much love, and I'll talk
to you very soon.
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