November 21, 2025 • 38 mins
In this special edition, we’re joined by Jon Gedling, Director of Estates for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, to discuss the challenges and responsibilities involved in caring for First World War cemeteries in Belgium and France. We explore the history behind making these cemeteries permanent after the Great War, how maintenance practices have evolved, and the background to the so-called “black spot” issue. Jon explains what recent investigations have revealed, how the CWGC is addressing the problem, what the future might hold, and how visitors to the Western Front battlefields can support the Commission’s work.
If you want to report an issue in a cemetery you have visited you can contact the CWGC.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
One of the things I've had quite a lot of
correspondence about this yearis the condition of Commonwealth
Warways Commission symmetries inBelgium and France.
And I hope in this specialepisode of the Old Front Line we
will uncover what the problemis, what the history of that
problem might be, and what theWarways Commission are hoping to
do to remedy the problem, andare remedying the problem, and
(00:33):
what the future might hold inrespect to this issue.
So I'm really pleased to bejoined by John Gedling, who is
the Director of the State forthe Commonwealth Wargoods
Commission.
So welcome, John.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
It's a pleasure.
Thanks for joining us to talkabout this.
Now, I mean some of our quite alot of our audience are not from
Britain or the Commonwealth.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Yeah, sure.
So our organisation was foundedduring the First World War to
care for the um graves and thewar dead originally of the Great
War and then extended to theSecond World War after that.
(01:21):
So we are responsible for thecare of 1.7 million uh war dead
in about 153 um countries.
So um I'm Director of State, soI um care for the structures,
the buildings, and thememorials.
I'm based at our headquarters inthe UK.
(01:41):
So for me, there's about umabout sort of 2,000 um
constructed war cemeteries andmemorials around the world where
there's something constructedthere that that we care for.
Um so that that comes under myresponsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
And and your work with the Commission has extended
over quite a few years, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Yeah, so I've been with the Commission for um eight
years, so that makes me inCommission terms a relative
newbie, as some of my colleagueshave done sort of uh 40, even 50
years in some cases.
So uh an organization withextraordinarily long service of
of of colleagues.
But um yeah, I'm in mybackground, I'm a I'm a um
chartered building surveyor andI've come from um caring for
(02:25):
historic estates.
And uh most uh recently I haveserved a couple of terms on one
of the um governance committeesfor historic England.
So yeah, sort of dealing withold buildings, structures,
memorials being very much partof my um DNA.
So um yeah, there's a a lot uh alot going on at the Commonwealth
(02:47):
War Graves Commission that I'vebeen involved with over these
last few years.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Very much the kind of uh work that's taken you
through the kind of guardianshipand maintenance of heritage of
all kinds, then I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so I mean think of the umFirst World War cemeteries that
many of your listeners will knowacross the the former Western
Front.
You know, typically you've gotbrick or stone walls, you know,
constructed across the sacrificeto stone of remembrance and and
shelter buildings and entrancebuildings of various levels of
(03:20):
complexity.
Um and some of these umcemeteries are highly complex
and they were designed by someof the foremost architects of
the day, you know, thearchitects of the empire.
So these are extraordinarycemeteries and memorials.
And if you think about you knowthe complexity of Tierval, you
(03:41):
know, this this this amazingmemorial, you know, with the the
the sort of brick and thetunnels are intersecting one
another, it's absolutelyextraordinary.
From a practical point of view,they're not always the easiest
to look after because youimagine they've had you know a
hundred years plus exposed tothe elements in northern Europe,
(04:02):
it can be really challenging toto to care for them all.
And then after the second worldworld war, you think sort of
internationally the the FarEast, um Africa, India, there
was um an awful lot of concretebeing used, and that poses other
problems as well.
So um, you know, it's a realprivilege to look after all the
(04:22):
cemeteries, memorials, and thebuildings we're responsible for,
but there's there's a lot ofcomplexity in how to do that.
Um and uh it keeps us all busy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
I'm sure it does.
I'm sure it does.
And going back to that kind ofcreation of of the commission
and the work that it did in thepost-war period to to make the
permanent cemeteries andmemorials, I mean this was a
fairly new thing, andparticularly involving the the
horticultural side of it tocreate this kind of English
garden effect.
And in that interwar period, Iguess they probably faced
(04:54):
challenges then in in the earlydays of of building something
that was essentially new.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah.
I I'm still I'm still staggeredby the scale of what was done in
those years after the FirstWorld War.
Because if you think they theywent into these countries that
had been absolutely devastatedby conflict and constructed some
really, really remarkablecemeteries and memorials.
(05:21):
Um so the practicalities of howthey did that I find amazing.
But also I think that thatdesign vision and care, because
you know that there were therewere uh four principal
architects involved, you know,these great architects are
Lutchen, Baker and andBloomfield, and joined by
(05:44):
Charles Holden, and then thiswhole team of assistant
architects.
And there must have been a greattemptation to sort of repeat
designs over and over again, youknow, the sort of the Lutchen's
type A type they and and youreally don't get that.
Of course, there's certainfeatures you you see used again,
but these architects reallylooked at every cemetery
(06:07):
differently, and they they theyincorporated the repeating
elements of the cross, thesacrifice, the stone of
remembrance, the principles thathave been established by the War
Graves Commission, but they usedtheir skill and imagination to
create these really remarkableum cemeteries that we see today.
(06:27):
So I I feel it's kind ofincumbent on us to use that same
sort of ethos and uh of care inour work that we do now.
And and we do do new work.
You know, we've just finishedthe construction of a uh new
memorial in Cape Town.
Um, from El, you know, PheasantWoods uh cemetery in France was
(06:51):
um was sort of fifteen or soyears ago.
And I think we we've tried tokeep those same principles you
know, updated to the day,obviously, about construction
techniques and skills, but verymuch from the early days of the
Commission there was this senseof quality and care and that's
(07:13):
you know that really runsthrough the organization now.
And I guess that comes back tothe comment I was making about
colleagues who've been with theorganization so long.
There is a real connection tothe work that we do.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
It it's not just a job, I don't I think for people
who work for the commission,it's much more than that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And y you also you you comeacross people, um you know,
particularly, you know, ourgardens and our gardeners and
stonemasons, where you'll findtheir father worked for the
commission and their grandfatherdid as well.
So it's not just their ownlength of service, there's a
like a sort of a family linkthat's gone back, you know, 60,
70 years, which is which isreally remarkable.
(07:52):
And there's an awful lot ofknowledge as well, which which
is great.
So even here at our umheadquarters, you know, I'm
surrounded by colleagues who'vebeen with the organization for
20, 30 years.
So there's there's a lot of kindof expert knowledge of our
cemeteries and how we care forthem, and and that really helps
guide our work today.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
That's brilliant.
A big knowledge base to draw on.
And in terms of this kind ofcurrent issue, if I go back to
when I first visited thebattlefields in in 1979 in the
case of Normandy and 82 in thecase of uh of Flanders to E.
The the headstones that I can'tremember then were were quite
white.
They were very white inappearance.
(08:33):
But if I look at images uh fromthe interwar period and even the
immediate post-second warperiod, there's a kind of a
darker tone to them because Iguess the way that headstones
were maintained in those twoperiods were very different.
And and chemicals, I think, inthat that period when I first
went were a big part of how thetreatment of headstones, they
(08:55):
were a big part of thattreatment, I believe.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And you you if you look at thevery early pictures, there's
there's a great um photograph inthe information centre at
Tynecott, actually, and you seethe gardener standing there with
all these plants that are abovethe height of the headstones,
and the headstones are are arequite dark.
Um and interestingly, a acolleague sent me a a photograph
(09:20):
from the s from the 70s that wasa still of a video in about 72,
I think it was, and you canreally see the headstones are
much, much darker than they aretoday.
And I think that's exactly it,that there just weren't the
products available to m perhapskeep them all clean.
(09:41):
And in the see in the early daysthey it was they had they had
brushes, that's that's all theywere doing, brushes or the use
of water.
And we know that after theSecond World War, moving into
the sixties and the seventies,chemicals became more common.
You know, and that wasn't justchemicals to clean the
headstones, we're talking about,you know, herbicides, weed
(10:04):
killers.
These products became plentifuland they were quite cheap and
they became the kind of go-tomethod of you know, looking
after war cemeteries.
Um and I I guess it you know itit it produced a certain effect
naturally, they did their job,but these days I think we are
(10:27):
more conscious of the effects ofthose products.
And, you know, particularlybiasides.
There's been loads of work doneuh about you know the the sort
of pitfalls of the use ofbiosides.
You know, historic England havedone work at you know the
National Trust and and variousothers about you know w why it's
a good idea to move away fromthese things.
(10:49):
And that's you know, it's partlyfor um it's it's partly for the
soil health, for you know, theplants, but for the stone itself
it's not always the best answereither.
So I think we know now that it'snot the best solution, but for
decades it was the kind of go-tosolution.
(11:11):
And and I mean likewise weedkillers and things, I think uh
there's a lot of people aretrying to get away from using
those for it it sort of does thejob, but you've got a legacy of
you've just put all thoseproducts into the soil.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
And I and I think um that those of us that have been
going for a long time will havehad that perception of white
headstones.
So when changes, I guess, weremade within the Commission,
following on from advice andperhaps a change in the law in
certain countries, in the use ofchemicals and pesticides, then
people began to see a bit of achange, didn't they?
(11:46):
People started to note on socialmedia, probably just prior to to
COVID.
So I guess that's a time inwhich there was these changes
began to come in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Well, I'd yeah, I think say first of all, that um
we've probably not been thegreatest at communicating some
of this, and we could have donethat much better, you know,
explaining about why we're doingdifferent things, um, but also I
think probably making the pointmore clearly that the long-term
(12:19):
care is really important to us,and that's the fundamental thing
about our organization and won'tchange.
Um I think the the the switchaway from biocides is not new
because in the Netherlandsactually we haven't been using
chemical biocides for about tenyears.
In in France, particular uhsorry, in Belgium, particularly
(12:42):
in Flanders, there was a changemade about five or six years
ago, and there were two reasonsreally.
One being we knew ourselves thatwe wanted to get away from using
chemical biocides for reasons ofthe soil health and the
long-term, you know, uh effecton on the stone itself.
But also the legislation waschanging and we could see that
(13:05):
and actually those thosebiocides that we've been used to
using, we can't use anyway inFrance because the law says we
can't.
And and we're seeing thathappening right across the EU.
You know, the Netherlands, wecouldn't go back to using the
biasides.
There's great swathes of Francearound Paris where you can't go
(13:25):
and use the the the buyer side.
So yeah, the ch the change iscoming via sort of legislation
and the wider practice, but wealso wanted to be sort of a
ahead of that and as I say, weperhaps could have been better
at maybe communicating some ofthat more openly.
(13:46):
But also the fundamentallong-term care is still the
same.
And what I would say is that Ithink we're more consistent now.
I think there has been instancesof certain cemeteries getting
cleaned and cleaned and cleaned,and others that were less well
visited were not cleaned perhapsso well.
(14:08):
And what we've really tried todo is to be more consistent.
You know, we have a recordingsystem, we have an inspection
program, every cemetery istreated equally.
So it doesn't matter if it'sreally remote and only has a few
few visitors or it's right onthe Psalm and thousands of
people go there, it's stilltreated the same way.
The headstones are inspected thesame way, and all our teams use
(14:30):
the head the same headstone umcleanliness guidance.
Um it's a bit of a a a sort ofepic task because we care for
nearly 700,000 headstones acrossWestern Europe.
So trying to keep on top of themall, I think it is quite a huge
task, but we can see in thearchives it's always been a
(14:53):
challenge for the Commission.
I think the first documentswe've got from our archives
where they were talking abouttrying to keep the stones clean
was about 1932, something likethat.
Where there's communicationbetween the uh the then Imperial
Wargraves Commission and um theexperts at Kew Gardens about
fungi and staining on stone andhow to keep them clean.
(15:15):
And there's the you know,there's various things that were
done then and and subsequentlyabout trying to keep the stone
clean, you know, variouspreservatives were applied in
the 40s and 50s, that now you'dlook at them and think, oh my
goodness, you wouldn't youwouldn't even use those now.
But they were all attempts totry to keep the stones clean.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Um and the cemeteries that I mean they
exist in in the natural world,don't they?
They're part of that landscape.
And and I think everyone canunderstand the importance of
protecting that landscape,protecting that natural world,
and making sure that thecemeteries are a part of it and
would welcome the the move away,I would guess, from chemicals,
(15:57):
because that's it's never apositive thing when it comes to
wildlife or plant life or justabout anything at all.
But the the move away from it, Iguess, has also now created
amphetine problems, which is Iguess where we get to the black
spot issue, which is somethingthat is a phrase that none of us
were using even a year or soago.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Um yeah, and and the how cleanthe headstone should be is so
emotive, and you you do get lotsof views, and I'm sure everyone
listening to that will havetheir own opinion on on you know
how how clean should the thestones be.
And interesting, we we had a a acomplaint to one of our speakers
(16:40):
in the UK just last week to saythat we'd gone and cleaned
headstones that had some rarelichen on and that we shouldn't
have touched them.
You know, up to those who havethe view that the stone should
be completely clean of all the365 days a year and all the
positions in between, and I getthat, it it it is really
emotive.
(17:00):
Um I guess I w I would I wouldrepeat again the long-term care
and the consistent care is isreally important and that hasn't
changed for us.
W one of the consequences ofreducing the amount of uh
biocide we use is that um itcontains a chemical bleaching
agent and we know that there'slike a sort of algae staining on
(17:26):
the stone embedded into thestone that the biocide obscured
in effect or bleached.
So by removing that product youyou start to see this this
staining appear.
And and again, historically inthe archives, we can see that
this was a concern in the past.
(17:46):
So we've we've almost got anissue back that they had before
the use of of um of thebiasides.
And yeah, it it's simply that wewe're using products now that
are effective but they don'tcontain bleaching agents.
So we have to find other ways ofof of removing that black black
(18:08):
spot staining.
So we we know what it is.
Removing it's more challengingbecause it's not on it's not
just on the surface of thestone, it's embedded into the
stone as well.
Um what's quite strange is we'vewe have seen quite a lot of it
this year, particularly inFrance, much, much less of it in
(18:32):
Belgium where they've not beenusing their biocides for five
years, as I said earlier.
So so it's quite odd that thereis that difference.
I'm not sure we quite know whythat is ourselves.
But we're working with a few umexternal experts at um you know
a couple of universities here inthe UK and the University of of
(18:52):
Antwerp have been hugely helpfulover these past few years with
with helping us with thedifferent products.
The the the main enzyme-basedproduct that we use, they did uh
helped us with the scientificresearch on that to verify that
the manufacturer's claims werewhat they said they were in
terms of you know limited riskof the soil, etc.
(19:16):
So we're continuing to work withthem to l to look at this
problem, what can we do to toremove this black stain or this
black spot um in a kind ofappropriate way.
And we're looking at alldifferent ideas and we've got w
I think there's about twelvethings we're trying at the
moment just to see um to seewhat they look like.
(19:37):
And interesting, just justbefore um you know recording
this, I've just come back fromBrookwood, our big um cemetery
in Surrey here in the UK, wherewe're trying five different
things.
So it'd be really interesting tosee how effective they are over
the coming weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
I mean, like you said, there's there's no obvious
consistency in it.
So this this year I've been tocemeteries all over the Western
Front, but also some inNormandy, where there's almost
no sign of it in Normandy.
Now I know many of theheadstands were replaced with
marble during the 2014.
(20:19):
And then I told this symmetryand absolutely no.
(20:42):
It's a parallel, there doesn'tseem to be any final reason to I
guess what you're saying is thatthe the previous methods have
kind of held this back, and it'sa problem that's always been
there, but it's showing itselfmore now because of because it
was never really a problem thatwas solved.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, I I think that's right.
And I I agree, it's really,really odd why it's in some
cemeteries and not others.
And um, you know, I I did a atalk back in the summer with our
um horticultural manager inFrance, and we we were at some
of the cemeteries around aroundSerre, whereas you know there
are lots and lots of cemeteriesyou know grouped there.
(21:24):
And some some cemeteries youwalk into and you think, oh my
goodness, it's on all theheadstones, and you go half a
mile along the road and it's notthere at all.
You think, well, that is reallyodd.
So we've been plotting all sortsof you know external factors
that could have caused it to bemore prevalent in one cemetery
than than another.
There are certain stone typesthat seem to be more affected.
(21:46):
Um but but oddly, you know, theNetherlands they've not used
they've not used biosides at allreally for about ten years.
Yet some of the cemeteries therehave not got any of this
staining on whatsoever.
Well, you know what's what's thereason for that?
So that's part of the work thatwe're doing with the um.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
I remember talking to the the gardener at Grosebeak
uh War Cemetery.
I think uh kind of felt himselfa little bit ahead of the curve
in the way that he he he he uhhad an approach to the
commemoration or to themaintenance of the cemetery and
he hadn't been using.
I remember him saying years agohe'd not been using chemicals
and he's very proud of thatfact.
And uh I don't know how longthat is, but it it certainly
(22:29):
that's a cemetery where that'suh I've never seen any kind of
example of this this problem atall.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And he he is a great advocate,that's uh the the head gardener
there for reduced chemical use,um more natural ways of caring
for cemeteries, you know,wildflowers and and an
absolutely fantastic lookingcemetery.
Um so yeah, I think it's it itshows that um there are
(22:57):
different there are differentapproaches and we we just need
to get on top of why it's insome cemeteries more than others
and a and uh and a kind oflong-term answer.
But I think some some of the theideas we're trying now are I
think are really promising,really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
And I've noticed over the last month of of
visiting that there's there'sdefinite changes kind of taking
place.
And and I think even some of thethe most severe critics online
have posted photographs ofcemeteries that they went to six
months ago where it was quiteevident that there was an issue,
and now that uh there's been adegree of cleaning or of method
(23:34):
tried and there's obvious,obvious changes which I think
you know everyone would wouldwelcome.
But it but it's an ongoingprocess, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah, it it is.
And this this is the time ofyear um you know the the these
few weeks where you knowtraditionally we do the the the
kind of the big headstone cleanbefore the winter sets in where
where a lot of the products isit it's harder for them to be
effective.
So yeah, this this time of yearan awful lot happens.
(24:06):
Um it is it is an ongoingprocess.
I think we um you know we'llcontinue to to try to understand
where we've got the blackstaining and where we can do
particular things in thosecemeteries.
Um the long-term trend is awayfrom from biosides.
Frankly, whether we whether welike it or not, that's the way
(24:28):
things are going.
So we want to be ahead of thecurve and find, you know,
suitable alternatives.
Um so yeah, it's it's very muchongoing.
But um, you know, I was at umSpanbrook Marlene Cemetery in
Belgium about three weeks agowhere we have just done I mean
that that was one of thecemeteries where there was there
(24:49):
was criticism about thecondition.
I think rightly so, we haven'tgot that right.
But the team there have justdone um treatment with lime wash
and they're also using analternative enzyme product and a
couple of other things as well.
And the expert at the Universityof Antwerp was actually using
that cemetery to to to testindependently how effective all
(25:12):
of these all of these differentthings are.
So it'd be really interesting tosee whether any of those are
viable or or as I suspect, theremight be different things we
need to do in different places.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And I I kind of think uh one ofthe things that you did with uh
the webinar that you had and andthe information that you're
putting online, communicatingthis to people I think is is
really, really important becausethe Commission is kind of a
government organisation, butit's it's one that I think most
people would feel verydifferently about because they
feel invested in it in terms ofwhat it's perfect to commemorate
(25:48):
uh the nations and the widerCommonwealth did from two world
wars.
And many of those people whofeel invested in that way often
have their own relatives in thecare of the Commission.
So I think this is why you knowperhaps patterns rise quite high
at times, because people have ahigh regard for the Commission
and a high regard for its work.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
Yeah, and uh yeah, and look, point taken, and I
think I think you're absolutelyright, that communication is
important, and that's that iswhat we've lacked in the past.
And and when this issue with theblack staining came to light, I
guess we tried to deal with itinternally, and perhaps we
should have just been more openthen about look, this is the
challenge.
Um I think since the webinar umin September, we've continued to
(26:35):
do um posts with updates.
There's a quite recent videothat's just gone on with my one
of my colleagues and Wynne Pirerin Belgium talking about this
issue.
And there's a couple of morethings that we're gonna do like
that.
So it's not so it's not just youknow people like me talking
about it, you know, it's it'ssome of our team out in France
(26:56):
and Belgium, you know, who'vebeen with us a long time talking
about the challenge and whatwhat they're doing.
So, yeah, absolutely we need todo more of that, and we should
have done it sooner.
I completely get that point.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
But I I think it's welcome.
And I think, you know, becausepeople are they they just kind
of feel that these are soimportant these types, and uh
that important beyond the thehistory of their their own
family, it kind of defineseverything that that Britain and
the Commonwealth was, you know,in a century of of history and
more, and they still have suchrelevance.
(27:30):
And and I think it's it's apositive kind of connection that
people have and they feelpositively about the Commission,
and and it's good to make surethat that remains harnessed.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Yeah, and I the long-term care is so important
to us, and I think one of thehardest things for a for a lot
of clothes to hear is the is thesort of suggestion that they
don't care because they are soinvested, there is such length
of service and and what haveyou.
So this this is really importantto get right.
Um I would say is it it ifanyone who visits the cemetery
(28:06):
feels that we have not got itright, they can send a message
to our inquiries or or via thewebsite.
Photos are always reallyhelpful, you know, which
cemetery it was, which day,photos if possible, and I
absolutely promise that we willlook into it and and we will get
our teams to investigate.
And if and if we've if we'vedropped we haven't got the
(28:26):
standard right, and I acceptthat that is the case, you know,
sometimes we just haven't got itright.
If the messages come in, detailsof of where it is, you know,
what the problem was, we we willinvestigate.
Our teams will go and have alook, we will check, and and we
will, you know, if if if wehaven't met the standards, we
(28:47):
will we will put it right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
And I think that's good, and I'll I'll put a link
in the show notes to that partof the Commission's website so
that people can kind of clickthrough to it.
Because you you don't want Imean, I've had people email me,
for example, and say, Can Ivolunteer to go out and clean
some stones?
And I don't think that's whatyou want.
What you want is information andknowledge at this point as to
where these problems are andphotographs of it, like you say,
(29:12):
rather than people going outthere to try and do something
themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Yeah, I th yeah, I think that's right.
I think you know, as I mentionedbefore, s 700,000 headstones
across Western Europe.
So I I think you know, Francealone is something like 858
cemeteries.
The scale is huge.
We've got about 300 gardeners,and we we're often reliant on
you know individuals makingmaking a decision about
(29:39):
individual cemeteries, and mostcases people get it right, but
either they don't quite get itright, or there's other factors,
or or we simply missed it.
And I get that happens.
So we have a we have aninspection cycle, we have people
out looking at the cemeteriesall the time.
(30:00):
time, but sometimes we just missthings.
Um and so yeah, we will we willact if we've missed it and
someone lets us know, we willturn act on it.
But yeah, we we do very muchhave our inspection programs to
get round all these cemeteries.
There is a sort of timing thingas I was saying because we know
(30:20):
that if we haven't got it rightby kind of end of November time,
it's really difficult to put itright over the winter.
We're then reliant on on goingand steam cleaning cemeteries,
which is which is far from idealwith the you know the trying to
get equipment to do that ispretty last resort.
We will where we have to, butthat is not is not the ideal.
(30:42):
So it's trying to trying to makethe judgment call in the sort of
October November time of whatneeds cleaning ready for the
winter ahead and then we do itagain in the spring and then
there's an ongoing thing.
So our gardeners in France arenow using an app so they record
what you know what they've donein a cemetery as part of their
visit.
So they're looking at headstonesas part of that.
(31:02):
So we can be a bit moreconsistent and and you know make
make sure the cycle has pickedup all the work required at the
right time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
And I guess as we're coming towards the wind you say
you've done remedial work inpreparation for the winter but I
guess people who perhaps onlycasually visit the battlefield
what they perhaps need tounderstand is that the winters
in these places can be verysevere.
And if it's potentially a topstone standing in the open
exposed landscape that willalways be problems.
(31:31):
And if we're going torenegotiate how as humans we we
live alongside the natural worldthat's got to be kind of part of
our understanding that noteverything can be pristine every
single day of the year that theweather conditions will always
affect what we see on thatlandscape when we visit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah I I I I think that's right.
I think you know the the duty ofcare is there and that's
paramount.
But we've we've got to we've gotto be sort of practical as well
and I think you know aside fromthe number of of graves and the
headstones that I mentioned Ithink Fabian Ware, you know our
(32:10):
founder, I think he referencedsomething like 50 miles of wall
that was constructed after theFirst World War.
And I think that might even havebeen an underestimation actually
so the amount of constructionacross these cemeteries even
aside from the graves is huge.
And you know the appropriatestandard of cleanliness is as I
(32:30):
said earlier is really emotiveto have every piece of stone
free from all dirt 365 days ayear in northern Europe, the
only way you could ever do thatis copious amounts of chemical
and we we know that wasn't donehistorically.
They couldn't possibly do ithistorically they didn't have
the chemicals.
You probably can't well youdefinitely can't do that now as
(32:53):
well without lots and lots ofquite harsh chemicals and that's
not appropriate for graves ofthe war dead really.
So longer term I think I thinkwell I'm sure it's absolutely
beholden on us as anorganisation to look after these
cemeteries in the mostresponsible way that that we can
(33:14):
and that means using the leastharmful products and processes
um while maintaining thatstandard of care.
And it's where you draw thatline is very emotive.
But I I think it's also reallyimportant that we are
consistent.
That's really important to mebecause I hate any of this
(33:35):
thought that well you shouldconcentrate on you know Tine
Cot 'cause it's 'cause it's solarge and the big cemeteries are
the some that get the visitors.
Yeah of course we should butequally we should be focusing on
a small cemetery you know faraway from northern France that
gets a handful of visitorsbecause those commemorated there
(33:57):
are commemorated equally.
So it's so it's also beenconsistent across across the
whole um uh of um northernEurope.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
And that idea of uniformity in death equality in
death is is something that's atthe very heart of the
Commission's principles.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Yeah yeah absolutely so the number of visitors
doesn't come into it for us andwe you know we spend an awful
lot of time repairing you know scemeteries and memorials where
we know they have a small numberof visitors and getting more
visitors would be great andthat's you know there's work
there's work to be done on thatfor sure but actually the
(34:33):
decision about where weprioritise the maintenance the
project work which is always abalance across a such this huge
global estate the number ofvisitors that a cemetery or the
memorial receives doesn't comeinto it so everyone is treated
equally.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Well I I I thank you John for taking the time to to
explain this to us because it ithas uh prompted a a lot of kind
of emails to to the podcastabout this and and I think that
people they they just want toknow and I think that the way
you've explained it and and thewider issues here and the way
the commission have continued toengage and I presume that's
going to continue as we goforward.
(35:11):
I think it's it's definitely thekind of the way forward for
everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Yeah thank you well look I'm I'm really glad to to
talk about it actually becauseit's a really important issue
and I think yes we need to bemore open about the things that
we're doing but I'm reallyexcited about some of the ideas
that we're trying because Ithink it may well show us a way
forward and um I just came backfrom Brookwood where we've got
(35:38):
all sorts of things we're doingI can see they're beginning to
make a difference already.
So I'm now thinking well youknow if if you can scale these
up then fantastic becausethey're much less harmful than
those chemicals we've beenusing.
They are producing a really goodstandard of clean you know we
have to we have to absolutelyreassure ourselves that they
(36:00):
work, they're right for thesoil, you know we have
independent experts who help uswith that but that that could
show us a real way forward forthe for the black spot issue
certainly so I think we will getthere.
I would and I would encourageagain people just to let us know
via the inquiries email or onthe the website if if there are
issues, if there's concerns oreven if they're not sure we can
(36:23):
look into it and then um youknow we can we can make sure
we're dealing with the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Brilliant.
Thank you John thanks for takingthe time to to talk to us here
today and we'll put links to theCommonwealth Warwick Commission
in the show notes for thisepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
I don't know if there's anything you want to say
just before we finish up Nothank thank you very much for
the opportunity to to talk toyou we will do much more on the
website so we're gonna encourageum your listeners to follow that
and to see some other contentthat we're putting up there and
we will we will keep doing thatand then we will do another
webinar um in in January.
(36:59):
We're hoping to bring on uh oneof our external experts either
as part of that or as asubsequent one to talk a bit
more about exactly what theproblem is and the next step.
So um yeah lots more to come.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
Brilliant thanks John thanks for taking the time
today great thank you you'vebeen listening to an episode of
the Old Frontline with me,military historian Paul Reid.
You can follow me on Twitter atSomcore you can follow the
podcast at OldFrontlinePod checkout the website at
(37:34):
oldfrontline.co.uk where you'llfind lots of podcast extras and
photographs and links to booksthat are mentioned in the
podcast.
And if you feel like supportingus you can go to our Patreon
page patreon.com slasholdfrontline or support us on
buymea coffee atbuymeacoffee.com slash
(37:54):
oldfrontline.
Links to all of these are on ourwebsite thanks for listening and
we'll see you again soon.
One of the things I've had quite a lot of
correspondence about this yearis the condition of Commonwealth
Warways Commission symmetries inBelgium and France.
And I hope in this specialepisode of the Old Front Line we
will uncover what the problemis, what the history of that
problem might be, and what theWarways Commission are hoping to
do to remedy the problem, andare remedying the problem, and
(00:33):
what the future might hold inrespect to this issue.
So I'm really pleased to bejoined by John Gedling, who is
the Director of the State forthe Commonwealth Wargoods
Commission.
So welcome, John.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
It's a pleasure.
Thanks for joining us to talkabout this.
Now, I mean some of our quite alot of our audience are not from
Britain or the Commonwealth.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Yeah, sure.
So our organisation was foundedduring the First World War to
care for the um graves and thewar dead originally of the Great
War and then extended to theSecond World War after that.
(01:21):
So we are responsible for thecare of 1.7 million uh war dead
in about 153 um countries.
So um I'm Director of State, soI um care for the structures,
the buildings, and thememorials.
I'm based at our headquarters inthe UK.
(01:41):
So for me, there's about umabout sort of 2,000 um
constructed war cemeteries andmemorials around the world where
there's something constructedthere that that we care for.
Um so that that comes under myresponsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
And and your work with the Commission has extended
over quite a few years, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Yeah, so I've been with the Commission for um eight
years, so that makes me inCommission terms a relative
newbie, as some of my colleagueshave done sort of uh 40, even 50
years in some cases.
So uh an organization withextraordinarily long service of
of of colleagues.
But um yeah, I'm in mybackground, I'm a I'm a um
chartered building surveyor andI've come from um caring for
(02:25):
historic estates.
And uh most uh recently I haveserved a couple of terms on one
of the um governance committeesfor historic England.
So yeah, sort of dealing withold buildings, structures,
memorials being very much partof my um DNA.
So um yeah, there's a a lot uh alot going on at the Commonwealth
(02:47):
War Graves Commission that I'vebeen involved with over these
last few years.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Very much the kind of uh work that's taken you
through the kind of guardianshipand maintenance of heritage of
all kinds, then I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so I mean think of the umFirst World War cemeteries that
many of your listeners will knowacross the the former Western
Front.
You know, typically you've gotbrick or stone walls, you know,
constructed across the sacrificeto stone of remembrance and and
shelter buildings and entrancebuildings of various levels of
(03:20):
complexity.
Um and some of these umcemeteries are highly complex
and they were designed by someof the foremost architects of
the day, you know, thearchitects of the empire.
So these are extraordinarycemeteries and memorials.
And if you think about you knowthe complexity of Tierval, you
(03:41):
know, this this this amazingmemorial, you know, with the the
the sort of brick and thetunnels are intersecting one
another, it's absolutelyextraordinary.
From a practical point of view,they're not always the easiest
to look after because youimagine they've had you know a
hundred years plus exposed tothe elements in northern Europe,
(04:02):
it can be really challenging toto to care for them all.
And then after the second worldworld war, you think sort of
internationally the the FarEast, um Africa, India, there
was um an awful lot of concretebeing used, and that poses other
problems as well.
So um, you know, it's a realprivilege to look after all the
(04:22):
cemeteries, memorials, and thebuildings we're responsible for,
but there's there's a lot ofcomplexity in how to do that.
Um and uh it keeps us all busy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
I'm sure it does.
I'm sure it does.
And going back to that kind ofcreation of of the commission
and the work that it did in thepost-war period to to make the
permanent cemeteries andmemorials, I mean this was a
fairly new thing, andparticularly involving the the
horticultural side of it tocreate this kind of English
garden effect.
And in that interwar period, Iguess they probably faced
(04:54):
challenges then in in the earlydays of of building something
that was essentially new.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah.
I I'm still I'm still staggeredby the scale of what was done in
those years after the FirstWorld War.
Because if you think they theywent into these countries that
had been absolutely devastatedby conflict and constructed some
really, really remarkablecemeteries and memorials.
(05:21):
Um so the practicalities of howthey did that I find amazing.
But also I think that thatdesign vision and care, because
you know that there were therewere uh four principal
architects involved, you know,these great architects are
Lutchen, Baker and andBloomfield, and joined by
(05:44):
Charles Holden, and then thiswhole team of assistant
architects.
And there must have been a greattemptation to sort of repeat
designs over and over again, youknow, the sort of the Lutchen's
type A type they and and youreally don't get that.
Of course, there's certainfeatures you you see used again,
but these architects reallylooked at every cemetery
(06:07):
differently, and they they theyincorporated the repeating
elements of the cross, thesacrifice, the stone of
remembrance, the principles thathave been established by the War
Graves Commission, but they usedtheir skill and imagination to
create these really remarkableum cemeteries that we see today.
(06:27):
So I I feel it's kind ofincumbent on us to use that same
sort of ethos and uh of care inour work that we do now.
And and we do do new work.
You know, we've just finishedthe construction of a uh new
memorial in Cape Town.
Um, from El, you know, PheasantWoods uh cemetery in France was
(06:51):
um was sort of fifteen or soyears ago.
And I think we we've tried tokeep those same principles you
know, updated to the day,obviously, about construction
techniques and skills, but verymuch from the early days of the
Commission there was this senseof quality and care and that's
(07:13):
you know that really runsthrough the organization now.
And I guess that comes back tothe comment I was making about
colleagues who've been with theorganization so long.
There is a real connection tothe work that we do.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
It it's not just a job, I don't I think for people
who work for the commission,it's much more than that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And y you also you you comeacross people, um you know,
particularly, you know, ourgardens and our gardeners and
stonemasons, where you'll findtheir father worked for the
commission and their grandfatherdid as well.
So it's not just their ownlength of service, there's a
like a sort of a family linkthat's gone back, you know, 60,
70 years, which is which isreally remarkable.
(07:52):
And there's an awful lot ofknowledge as well, which which
is great.
So even here at our umheadquarters, you know, I'm
surrounded by colleagues who'vebeen with the organization for
20, 30 years.
So there's there's a lot of kindof expert knowledge of our
cemeteries and how we care forthem, and and that really helps
guide our work today.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
That's brilliant.
A big knowledge base to draw on.
And in terms of this kind ofcurrent issue, if I go back to
when I first visited thebattlefields in in 1979 in the
case of Normandy and 82 in thecase of uh of Flanders to E.
The the headstones that I can'tremember then were were quite
white.
They were very white inappearance.
(08:33):
But if I look at images uh fromthe interwar period and even the
immediate post-second warperiod, there's a kind of a
darker tone to them because Iguess the way that headstones
were maintained in those twoperiods were very different.
And and chemicals, I think, inthat that period when I first
went were a big part of how thetreatment of headstones, they
(08:55):
were a big part of thattreatment, I believe.
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And you you if you look at thevery early pictures, there's
there's a great um photograph inthe information centre at
Tynecott, actually, and you seethe gardener standing there with
all these plants that are abovethe height of the headstones,
and the headstones are are arequite dark.
Um and interestingly, a acolleague sent me a a photograph
(09:20):
from the s from the 70s that wasa still of a video in about 72,
I think it was, and you canreally see the headstones are
much, much darker than they aretoday.
And I think that's exactly it,that there just weren't the
products available to m perhapskeep them all clean.
(09:41):
And in the see in the early daysthey it was they had they had
brushes, that's that's all theywere doing, brushes or the use
of water.
And we know that after theSecond World War, moving into
the sixties and the seventies,chemicals became more common.
You know, and that wasn't justchemicals to clean the
headstones, we're talking about,you know, herbicides, weed
(10:04):
killers.
These products became plentifuland they were quite cheap and
they became the kind of go-tomethod of you know, looking
after war cemeteries.
Um and I I guess it you know itit it produced a certain effect
naturally, they did their job,but these days I think we are
(10:27):
more conscious of the effects ofthose products.
And, you know, particularlybiasides.
There's been loads of work doneuh about you know the the sort
of pitfalls of the use ofbiosides.
You know, historic England havedone work at you know the
National Trust and and variousothers about you know w why it's
a good idea to move away fromthese things.
(10:49):
And that's you know, it's partlyfor um it's it's partly for the
soil health, for you know, theplants, but for the stone itself
it's not always the best answereither.
So I think we know now that it'snot the best solution, but for
decades it was the kind of go-tosolution.
(11:11):
And and I mean likewise weedkillers and things, I think uh
there's a lot of people aretrying to get away from using
those for it it sort of does thejob, but you've got a legacy of
you've just put all thoseproducts into the soil.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
And I and I think um that those of us that have been
going for a long time will havehad that perception of white
headstones.
So when changes, I guess, weremade within the Commission,
following on from advice andperhaps a change in the law in
certain countries, in the use ofchemicals and pesticides, then
people began to see a bit of achange, didn't they?
(11:46):
People started to note on socialmedia, probably just prior to to
COVID.
So I guess that's a time inwhich there was these changes
began to come in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Well, I'd yeah, I think say first of all, that um
we've probably not been thegreatest at communicating some
of this, and we could have donethat much better, you know,
explaining about why we're doingdifferent things, um, but also I
think probably making the pointmore clearly that the long-term
(12:19):
care is really important to us,and that's the fundamental thing
about our organization and won'tchange.
Um I think the the the switchaway from biocides is not new
because in the Netherlandsactually we haven't been using
chemical biocides for about tenyears.
In in France, particular uhsorry, in Belgium, particularly
(12:42):
in Flanders, there was a changemade about five or six years
ago, and there were two reasonsreally.
One being we knew ourselves thatwe wanted to get away from using
chemical biocides for reasons ofthe soil health and the
long-term, you know, uh effecton on the stone itself.
But also the legislation waschanging and we could see that
(13:05):
and actually those thosebiocides that we've been used to
using, we can't use anyway inFrance because the law says we
can't.
And and we're seeing thathappening right across the EU.
You know, the Netherlands, wecouldn't go back to using the
biasides.
There's great swathes of Francearound Paris where you can't go
(13:25):
and use the the the buyer side.
So yeah, the ch the change iscoming via sort of legislation
and the wider practice, but wealso wanted to be sort of a
ahead of that and as I say, weperhaps could have been better
at maybe communicating some ofthat more openly.
(13:46):
But also the fundamentallong-term care is still the
same.
And what I would say is that Ithink we're more consistent now.
I think there has been instancesof certain cemeteries getting
cleaned and cleaned and cleaned,and others that were less well
visited were not cleaned perhapsso well.
(14:08):
And what we've really tried todo is to be more consistent.
You know, we have a recordingsystem, we have an inspection
program, every cemetery istreated equally.
So it doesn't matter if it'sreally remote and only has a few
few visitors or it's right onthe Psalm and thousands of
people go there, it's stilltreated the same way.
The headstones are inspected thesame way, and all our teams use
(14:30):
the head the same headstone umcleanliness guidance.
Um it's a bit of a a a sort ofepic task because we care for
nearly 700,000 headstones acrossWestern Europe.
So trying to keep on top of themall, I think it is quite a huge
task, but we can see in thearchives it's always been a
(14:53):
challenge for the Commission.
I think the first documentswe've got from our archives
where they were talking abouttrying to keep the stones clean
was about 1932, something likethat.
Where there's communicationbetween the uh the then Imperial
Wargraves Commission and um theexperts at Kew Gardens about
fungi and staining on stone andhow to keep them clean.
(15:15):
And there's the you know,there's various things that were
done then and and subsequentlyabout trying to keep the stone
clean, you know, variouspreservatives were applied in
the 40s and 50s, that now you'dlook at them and think, oh my
goodness, you wouldn't youwouldn't even use those now.
But they were all attempts totry to keep the stones clean.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Um and the cemeteries that I mean they
exist in in the natural world,don't they?
They're part of that landscape.
And and I think everyone canunderstand the importance of
protecting that landscape,protecting that natural world,
and making sure that thecemeteries are a part of it and
would welcome the the move away,I would guess, from chemicals,
(15:57):
because that's it's never apositive thing when it comes to
wildlife or plant life or justabout anything at all.
But the the move away from it, Iguess, has also now created
amphetine problems, which is Iguess where we get to the black
spot issue, which is somethingthat is a phrase that none of us
were using even a year or soago.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Um yeah, and and the how cleanthe headstone should be is so
emotive, and you you do get lotsof views, and I'm sure everyone
listening to that will havetheir own opinion on on you know
how how clean should the thestones be.
And interesting, we we had a a acomplaint to one of our speakers
(16:40):
in the UK just last week to saythat we'd gone and cleaned
headstones that had some rarelichen on and that we shouldn't
have touched them.
You know, up to those who havethe view that the stone should
be completely clean of all the365 days a year and all the
positions in between, and I getthat, it it it is really
emotive.
(17:00):
Um I guess I w I would I wouldrepeat again the long-term care
and the consistent care is isreally important and that hasn't
changed for us.
W one of the consequences ofreducing the amount of uh
biocide we use is that um itcontains a chemical bleaching
agent and we know that there'slike a sort of algae staining on
(17:26):
the stone embedded into thestone that the biocide obscured
in effect or bleached.
So by removing that product youyou start to see this this
staining appear.
And and again, historically inthe archives, we can see that
this was a concern in the past.
(17:46):
So we've we've almost got anissue back that they had before
the use of of um of thebiasides.
And yeah, it it's simply that wewe're using products now that
are effective but they don'tcontain bleaching agents.
So we have to find other ways ofof of removing that black black
(18:08):
spot staining.
So we we know what it is.
Removing it's more challengingbecause it's not on it's not
just on the surface of thestone, it's embedded into the
stone as well.
Um what's quite strange is we'vewe have seen quite a lot of it
this year, particularly inFrance, much, much less of it in
(18:32):
Belgium where they've not beenusing their biocides for five
years, as I said earlier.
So so it's quite odd that thereis that difference.
I'm not sure we quite know whythat is ourselves.
But we're working with a few umexternal experts at um you know
a couple of universities here inthe UK and the University of of
(18:52):
Antwerp have been hugely helpfulover these past few years with
with helping us with thedifferent products.
The the the main enzyme-basedproduct that we use, they did uh
helped us with the scientificresearch on that to verify that
the manufacturer's claims werewhat they said they were in
terms of you know limited riskof the soil, etc.
(19:16):
So we're continuing to work withthem to l to look at this
problem, what can we do to toremove this black stain or this
black spot um in a kind ofappropriate way.
And we're looking at alldifferent ideas and we've got w
I think there's about twelvethings we're trying at the
moment just to see um to seewhat they look like.
(19:37):
And interesting, just justbefore um you know recording
this, I've just come back fromBrookwood, our big um cemetery
in Surrey here in the UK, wherewe're trying five different
things.
So it'd be really interesting tosee how effective they are over
the coming weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
I mean, like you said, there's there's no obvious
consistency in it.
So this this year I've been tocemeteries all over the Western
Front, but also some inNormandy, where there's almost
no sign of it in Normandy.
Now I know many of theheadstands were replaced with
marble during the 2014.
(20:19):
And then I told this symmetryand absolutely no.
(20:42):
It's a parallel, there doesn'tseem to be any final reason to I
guess what you're saying is thatthe the previous methods have
kind of held this back, and it'sa problem that's always been
there, but it's showing itselfmore now because of because it
was never really a problem thatwas solved.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, I I think that's right.
And I I agree, it's really,really odd why it's in some
cemeteries and not others.
And um, you know, I I did a atalk back in the summer with our
um horticultural manager inFrance, and we we were at some
of the cemeteries around aroundSerre, whereas you know there
are lots and lots of cemeteriesyou know grouped there.
(21:24):
And some some cemeteries youwalk into and you think, oh my
goodness, it's on all theheadstones, and you go half a
mile along the road and it's notthere at all.
You think, well, that is reallyodd.
So we've been plotting all sortsof you know external factors
that could have caused it to bemore prevalent in one cemetery
than than another.
There are certain stone typesthat seem to be more affected.
(21:46):
Um but but oddly, you know, theNetherlands they've not used
they've not used biosides at allreally for about ten years.
Yet some of the cemeteries therehave not got any of this
staining on whatsoever.
Well, you know what's what's thereason for that?
So that's part of the work thatwe're doing with the um.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
I remember talking to the the gardener at Grosebeak
uh War Cemetery.
I think uh kind of felt himselfa little bit ahead of the curve
in the way that he he he he uhhad an approach to the
commemoration or to themaintenance of the cemetery and
he hadn't been using.
I remember him saying years agohe'd not been using chemicals
and he's very proud of thatfact.
And uh I don't know how longthat is, but it it certainly
(22:29):
that's a cemetery where that'suh I've never seen any kind of
example of this this problem atall.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And he he is a great advocate,that's uh the the head gardener
there for reduced chemical use,um more natural ways of caring
for cemeteries, you know,wildflowers and and an
absolutely fantastic lookingcemetery.
Um so yeah, I think it's it itshows that um there are
(22:57):
different there are differentapproaches and we we just need
to get on top of why it's insome cemeteries more than others
and a and uh and a kind oflong-term answer.
But I think some some of the theideas we're trying now are I
think are really promising,really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
And I've noticed over the last month of of
visiting that there's there'sdefinite changes kind of taking
place.
And and I think even some of thethe most severe critics online
have posted photographs ofcemeteries that they went to six
months ago where it was quiteevident that there was an issue,
and now that uh there's been adegree of cleaning or of method
(23:34):
tried and there's obvious,obvious changes which I think
you know everyone would wouldwelcome.
But it but it's an ongoingprocess, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah, it it is.
And this this is the time ofyear um you know the the these
few weeks where you knowtraditionally we do the the the
kind of the big headstone cleanbefore the winter sets in where
where a lot of the products isit it's harder for them to be
effective.
So yeah, this this time of yearan awful lot happens.
(24:06):
Um it is it is an ongoingprocess.
I think we um you know we'llcontinue to to try to understand
where we've got the blackstaining and where we can do
particular things in thosecemeteries.
Um the long-term trend is awayfrom from biosides.
Frankly, whether we whether welike it or not, that's the way
(24:28):
things are going.
So we want to be ahead of thecurve and find, you know,
suitable alternatives.
Um so yeah, it's it's very muchongoing.
But um, you know, I was at umSpanbrook Marlene Cemetery in
Belgium about three weeks agowhere we have just done I mean
that that was one of thecemeteries where there was there
(24:49):
was criticism about thecondition.
I think rightly so, we haven'tgot that right.
But the team there have justdone um treatment with lime wash
and they're also using analternative enzyme product and a
couple of other things as well.
And the expert at the Universityof Antwerp was actually using
that cemetery to to to testindependently how effective all
(25:12):
of these all of these differentthings are.
So it'd be really interesting tosee whether any of those are
viable or or as I suspect, theremight be different things we
need to do in different places.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yeah, yeah.
And I I kind of think uh one ofthe things that you did with uh
the webinar that you had and andthe information that you're
putting online, communicatingthis to people I think is is
really, really important becausethe Commission is kind of a
government organisation, butit's it's one that I think most
people would feel verydifferently about because they
feel invested in it in terms ofwhat it's perfect to commemorate
(25:48):
uh the nations and the widerCommonwealth did from two world
wars.
And many of those people whofeel invested in that way often
have their own relatives in thecare of the Commission.
So I think this is why you knowperhaps patterns rise quite high
at times, because people have ahigh regard for the Commission
and a high regard for its work.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
Yeah, and uh yeah, and look, point taken, and I
think I think you're absolutelyright, that communication is
important, and that's that iswhat we've lacked in the past.
And and when this issue with theblack staining came to light, I
guess we tried to deal with itinternally, and perhaps we
should have just been more openthen about look, this is the
challenge.
Um I think since the webinar umin September, we've continued to
(26:35):
do um posts with updates.
There's a quite recent videothat's just gone on with my one
of my colleagues and Wynne Pirerin Belgium talking about this
issue.
And there's a couple of morethings that we're gonna do like
that.
So it's not so it's not just youknow people like me talking
about it, you know, it's it'ssome of our team out in France
(26:56):
and Belgium, you know, who'vebeen with us a long time talking
about the challenge and whatwhat they're doing.
So, yeah, absolutely we need todo more of that, and we should
have done it sooner.
I completely get that point.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
But I I think it's welcome.
And I think, you know, becausepeople are they they just kind
of feel that these are soimportant these types, and uh
that important beyond the thehistory of their their own
family, it kind of defineseverything that that Britain and
the Commonwealth was, you know,in a century of of history and
more, and they still have suchrelevance.
(27:30):
And and I think it's it's apositive kind of connection that
people have and they feelpositively about the Commission,
and and it's good to make surethat that remains harnessed.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Yeah, and I the long-term care is so important
to us, and I think one of thehardest things for a for a lot
of clothes to hear is the is thesort of suggestion that they
don't care because they are soinvested, there is such length
of service and and what haveyou.
So this this is really importantto get right.
Um I would say is it it ifanyone who visits the cemetery
(28:06):
feels that we have not got itright, they can send a message
to our inquiries or or via thewebsite.
Photos are always reallyhelpful, you know, which
cemetery it was, which day,photos if possible, and I
absolutely promise that we willlook into it and and we will get
our teams to investigate.
And if and if we've if we'vedropped we haven't got the
(28:26):
standard right, and I acceptthat that is the case, you know,
sometimes we just haven't got itright.
If the messages come in, detailsof of where it is, you know,
what the problem was, we we willinvestigate.
Our teams will go and have alook, we will check, and and we
will, you know, if if if wehaven't met the standards, we
(28:47):
will we will put it right.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
And I think that's good, and I'll I'll put a link
in the show notes to that partof the Commission's website so
that people can kind of clickthrough to it.
Because you you don't want Imean, I've had people email me,
for example, and say, Can Ivolunteer to go out and clean
some stones?
And I don't think that's whatyou want.
What you want is information andknowledge at this point as to
where these problems are andphotographs of it, like you say,
(29:12):
rather than people going outthere to try and do something
themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Yeah, I th yeah, I think that's right.
I think you know, as I mentionedbefore, s 700,000 headstones
across Western Europe.
So I I think you know, Francealone is something like 858
cemeteries.
The scale is huge.
We've got about 300 gardeners,and we we're often reliant on
you know individuals makingmaking a decision about
(29:39):
individual cemeteries, and mostcases people get it right, but
either they don't quite get itright, or there's other factors,
or or we simply missed it.
And I get that happens.
So we have a we have aninspection cycle, we have people
out looking at the cemeteriesall the time.
(30:00):
time, but sometimes we just missthings.
Um and so yeah, we will we willact if we've missed it and
someone lets us know, we willturn act on it.
But yeah, we we do very muchhave our inspection programs to
get round all these cemeteries.
There is a sort of timing thingas I was saying because we know
(30:20):
that if we haven't got it rightby kind of end of November time,
it's really difficult to put itright over the winter.
We're then reliant on on goingand steam cleaning cemeteries,
which is which is far from idealwith the you know the trying to
get equipment to do that ispretty last resort.
We will where we have to, butthat is not is not the ideal.
(30:42):
So it's trying to trying to makethe judgment call in the sort of
October November time of whatneeds cleaning ready for the
winter ahead and then we do itagain in the spring and then
there's an ongoing thing.
So our gardeners in France arenow using an app so they record
what you know what they've donein a cemetery as part of their
visit.
So they're looking at headstonesas part of that.
(31:02):
So we can be a bit moreconsistent and and you know make
make sure the cycle has pickedup all the work required at the
right time.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
And I guess as we're coming towards the wind you say
you've done remedial work inpreparation for the winter but I
guess people who perhaps onlycasually visit the battlefield
what they perhaps need tounderstand is that the winters
in these places can be verysevere.
And if it's potentially a topstone standing in the open
exposed landscape that willalways be problems.
(31:31):
And if we're going torenegotiate how as humans we we
live alongside the natural worldthat's got to be kind of part of
our understanding that noteverything can be pristine every
single day of the year that theweather conditions will always
affect what we see on thatlandscape when we visit.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah I I I I think that's right.
I think you know the the duty ofcare is there and that's
paramount.
But we've we've got to we've gotto be sort of practical as well
and I think you know aside fromthe number of of graves and the
headstones that I mentioned Ithink Fabian Ware, you know our
(32:10):
founder, I think he referencedsomething like 50 miles of wall
that was constructed after theFirst World War.
And I think that might even havebeen an underestimation actually
so the amount of constructionacross these cemeteries even
aside from the graves is huge.
And you know the appropriatestandard of cleanliness is as I
(32:30):
said earlier is really emotiveto have every piece of stone
free from all dirt 365 days ayear in northern Europe, the
only way you could ever do thatis copious amounts of chemical
and we we know that wasn't donehistorically.
They couldn't possibly do ithistorically they didn't have
the chemicals.
You probably can't well youdefinitely can't do that now as
(32:53):
well without lots and lots ofquite harsh chemicals and that's
not appropriate for graves ofthe war dead really.
So longer term I think I thinkwell I'm sure it's absolutely
beholden on us as anorganisation to look after these
cemeteries in the mostresponsible way that that we can
(33:14):
and that means using the leastharmful products and processes
um while maintaining thatstandard of care.
And it's where you draw thatline is very emotive.
But I I think it's also reallyimportant that we are
consistent.
That's really important to mebecause I hate any of this
(33:35):
thought that well you shouldconcentrate on you know Tine
Cot 'cause it's 'cause it's solarge and the big cemeteries are
the some that get the visitors.
Yeah of course we should butequally we should be focusing on
a small cemetery you know faraway from northern France that
gets a handful of visitorsbecause those commemorated there
(33:57):
are commemorated equally.
So it's so it's also beenconsistent across across the
whole um uh of um northernEurope.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
And that idea of uniformity in death equality in
death is is something that's atthe very heart of the
Commission's principles.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Yeah yeah absolutely so the number of visitors
doesn't come into it for us andwe you know we spend an awful
lot of time repairing you know scemeteries and memorials where
we know they have a small numberof visitors and getting more
visitors would be great andthat's you know there's work
there's work to be done on thatfor sure but actually the
(34:33):
decision about where weprioritise the maintenance the
project work which is always abalance across a such this huge
global estate the number ofvisitors that a cemetery or the
memorial receives doesn't comeinto it so everyone is treated
equally.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Well I I I thank you John for taking the time to to
explain this to us because it ithas uh prompted a a lot of kind
of emails to to the podcastabout this and and I think that
people they they just want toknow and I think that the way
you've explained it and and thewider issues here and the way
the commission have continued toengage and I presume that's
going to continue as we goforward.
(35:11):
I think it's it's definitely thekind of the way forward for
everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Yeah thank you well look I'm I'm really glad to to
talk about it actually becauseit's a really important issue
and I think yes we need to bemore open about the things that
we're doing but I'm reallyexcited about some of the ideas
that we're trying because Ithink it may well show us a way
forward and um I just came backfrom Brookwood where we've got
(35:38):
all sorts of things we're doingI can see they're beginning to
make a difference already.
So I'm now thinking well youknow if if you can scale these
up then fantastic becausethey're much less harmful than
those chemicals we've beenusing.
They are producing a really goodstandard of clean you know we
have to we have to absolutelyreassure ourselves that they
(36:00):
work, they're right for thesoil, you know we have
independent experts who help uswith that but that that could
show us a real way forward forthe for the black spot issue
certainly so I think we will getthere.
I would and I would encourageagain people just to let us know
via the inquiries email or onthe the website if if there are
issues, if there's concerns oreven if they're not sure we can
(36:23):
look into it and then um youknow we can we can make sure
we're dealing with the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Brilliant.
Thank you John thanks for takingthe time to to talk to us here
today and we'll put links to theCommonwealth Warwick Commission
in the show notes for thisepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
I don't know if there's anything you want to say
just before we finish up Nothank thank you very much for
the opportunity to to talk toyou we will do much more on the
website so we're gonna encourageum your listeners to follow that
and to see some other contentthat we're putting up there and
we will we will keep doing thatand then we will do another
webinar um in in January.
(36:59):
We're hoping to bring on uh oneof our external experts either
as part of that or as asubsequent one to talk a bit
more about exactly what theproblem is and the next step.
So um yeah lots more to come.
SPEAKER_00 (37:11):
Brilliant thanks John thanks for taking the time
today great thank you you'vebeen listening to an episode of
the Old Frontline with me,military historian Paul Reid.
You can follow me on Twitter atSomcore you can follow the
podcast at OldFrontlinePod checkout the website at
(37:34):
oldfrontline.co.uk where you'llfind lots of podcast extras and
photographs and links to booksthat are mentioned in the
podcast.
And if you feel like supportingus you can go to our Patreon
page patreon.com slasholdfrontline or support us on
buymea coffee atbuymeacoffee.com slash
(37:54):
oldfrontline.
Links to all of these are on ourwebsite thanks for listening and
we'll see you again soon.
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