July 25, 2025 • 49 mins
For our 250th episode of the podcast, and as part of our continuing Air War series, we are joined by aviation historian and author Andy Saunders to look at the life, and death, of Edward 'Mick' Mannock VC DSO & Two Bars, MC & Bar and the search for his potential burial place on the Western Front. Is the grave of an Unknown Aviator at Laventie British Cemetery Mick Mannock's final resting place?
Andy's book: Mannock: The Life and Death of Major Edward Mannock VC, DSO, MC, RAF by Frank, Norman and Saunders, Andy. (Grub Street 2008)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Mick Mannock was one of the great aviators of the
First World War and one ofBritain's top scoring aces.
In this episode of the specialAir War series of the Old Front
Line, we speak to Andy Saundersabout Mick's life and death
above the battlefields of theWestern Front.
(00:26):
Welcome to this episode of thespecial Air War Month on the Old
Front Line, where we're lookingat the experience of the Royal
Flying Corps and the Royal AirForce over the Western Front.
And I'm really pleased to bejoined by Andy Saunders.
Andy is an aviation and militaryhistorian, author of numerous
books, former editor of Britainat War and Iron Cross magazines,
(00:48):
and a regular broadcaster.
Many years ago Andy and I workedon a BBC time watch called Aces
Falling where Andy spoke abouthis work on the death and burial
of First World War air aceEdward Mick Manick and later
wrote a book on the subject.
In this episode we return toMick to look at his life and
death in the Great War.
(01:09):
So welcome Andy thanks forjoining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
Hello Paul and thank you for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Now You're more known for your work on the
Second World War, particularlythings like the Battle of
Britain and subjects like that.
You don't often venture into theFirst World War.
So how did that start with Mick?
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Absolutely.
No, you're completely right.
I mean, I suppose I would haveto say that the First World War
and the air war in the FirstWorld War is somewhat outside of
my comfort zone, as it were.
I mean, it's not a subject thatI'm entirely unfamiliar with,
obviously, but it's It's not thearea that I normally work in.
(01:47):
Obviously, the story of McManachis known to anyone and everyone
who has any interest in militaryaviation in any case.
But how it was sparked for mewas actually quite an
extraordinary story in that oneSunday many years ago, I don't
(02:08):
know, 2014, plus years ago.
I just happened to be at a localboot fair.
And, you know, sometimes whenthe stallholders turn up, it's
like sort of bees around ahoneypot, you know, as people
are crowded around to see whatgoodies are coming out of the
car.
And my attention was drawn tothis particular car, which had a
(02:31):
lot of people gathering aroundit.
And strapped to the roof of thisVolvo was a clearly a very old
wooden two-bladed propeller.
So I made my way over to try andget it, got there too late, but
I ended up in conversation, justrandomly in conversation with a
chap who was also trying to gethold of this propeller.
(02:52):
And he sort of turned to me andhe said, oh, are you, you know,
are you interested in this sortof thing?
So I said, well, yes, you know,it's, you know, but I said,
mainly second motor bore.
And he said, oh, that's a shame.
He said, you probably won't haveheard of my great uncle then so
I said oh well try me who wasyour great uncle and he said
(03:15):
well his name was Mannock so Isaid what Mick Mannock and he
said yeah yeah he said um hesaid you know he's my great
uncle and this chap Peter Burdenum it just turned out I mean he
lived in the next street to meat the time I mean it was just
incredible and I went around tosee him that afternoon and And
lo and behold, he got a load oforiginal letters, all in a
(03:38):
little wooden chest, marked, itwas actually marked Captain
Mannock.
And there were letters that he'dsent to his sister and to his
mother.
And there was his commissiondocument.
I think there was, well, therewas just a mass of stuff,
original photographs.
(03:59):
And yeah, I just couldn'tbelieve it.
You know, it was justastonishing.
he'd got a Peter had a brotherand his brother, his first name
was actually Mannock.
So it was Mannock Burden.
And he looked absolutely exactlylike Mick Mannock.
And this was just, to me, thiswas just the most remarkable
(04:19):
thing.
And that just drew me into thestory.
And I started to look at thebackground of what had happened
to Mannock.
You know, I didn't know the fullstory of his disappearance.
And, you know, I cannot claim tobe the first person who's
researched and looked at andcome to the conclusion as to
(04:41):
where he was buried which we'regoing to come on to later I know
but I thought well you know I'llget a little deeper into this
and you know the rest as theysay is history.
I
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
mean what a remarkable kind of coincidence
to meet someone who lives soclose to you connected to one of
the most famous air races of theGreat
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
War.
I know I mean you know it justdoesn't happen does it you know
but you know it It happened, andit was just astonishing.
And initially, at the time, Iwas involved with the Aviation
Museum at Tangmere, and PeterBurden actually loaned the
(05:21):
museum all of the artefacts fora while, but eventually the
family decided to put them upfor auction, but that's another
story.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So, I mean, Mick is an unusual pilot in so many
different ways, in particularthat he doesn't kind of fit that
standard idea of a Royal FlyingCorps pilot observer in that he
didn't come from a public schoolkind of officey, posh
background, that he was fromquite a humble background,
wasn't he?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
He was from a very, very humble background.
And as you say, he just didn'tfit in.
He was of Irish descent and hewasn't public school.
There were so many things abouthim that were just not your
typical, he wasn't exactly theepitome of what we all imagined
(06:10):
a Royal Flying Corps pilot orobserver to be.
In fact, just the opposite.
And his route into the RoyalFlying Corps was sort of a
slightly unusual one.
And, you know, you also havethis man who actually had, you
know, poor eyesight, you know.
So, you know, you've got a chapwho doesn't fit the mould, he's
(06:34):
got poor eyesight, and yet heends up becoming, you know,
almost certainly the highestscoring fighter pilot of the
Royal Flying Corps slash RAFever.
It's an incredible story.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
And is there even some debate about where he was
actually born?
I mean, I remember someonesaying to me he was born in
Brighton, but...
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Yeah, there's a lot of dispute as to where he was
actually born and when he wasborn.
I mean, there's different yearsthat have been given.
I mean, I think we've got 14thof May, 1887 seems to be the
most likely.
But interestingly, the MOD a fewyears ago, and I presume that
(07:16):
was the...
historical branch, I can'tremember now, said, no, no, it
was 1888.
And another source says 1889.
And then we've got differentbirth locations because nobody,
to my knowledge, has evertracked down a birth
certificate.
So we've got Brighton,Canterbury, Aldershot, India,
somewhere in India, or Cork.
(07:38):
And so, you know, there's amystery here.
as to where he was born.
So there's so many mysteriesabout this man.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
I get what I was going to say.
They kind of start with his verybirth, these mysteries.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We end up with a mystery abouthis death, but it starts off
with his birth being mysterious.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
And when the war broke out in 1914, he wasn't
serving in any form of militaryservice.
I think he was a telephoneengineer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Yeah, that's right.
He was a telephone engineer.
Yeah.
And so he wasn't a military manas such.
Yeah, just a very, very strangebackground and route into what
he became.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
And out in Turkey, I think, where they interned him
for a little while once Turkeyentered the war.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he was interned in Turkey andeventually was released and came
back.
And he had served for a time, Ibelieve, in the Royal Army
Medical Corps.
But, you know, once he'd...
joined up and actually his, andstarted, eventually started
(08:56):
flying training.
I mean, he, he, how he actuallymade it through the training is
a bit of a miracle.
I mean, he, he was not exactly apromising pilot to say the very,
very least, you know, so hewasn't a promising pilot.
He's got poor eyesight.
You know, there's not, And hedoesn't come from the right
school or any school.
You know, this chap is, youknow, hopeless case.
(09:18):
You know, he's never going tomake fighter pilot, let alone
fighter race.
You know, that's the generalfeeling about him.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
But I guess for ordinary men like him, the route
to this was through technicalknowledge.
Yes.
Yeah.
Rather than what theirbackground was, it was what they
knew.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
And I mean, there are others,you know, not exactly identical
background, but, you know, youhave McCudden, you know, and
various others who were verygood technically and as
engineers and what have you.
So, yes, that is true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
But he gets that opportunity to do flying
training and gets put into, isit 40 Squadron?
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yeah, he started off with 40 Squadron and his record
there was not exactly stellar.
And gradually, he's one ofthese, he was a bit of a, to say
the very least, a slow starter.
But once he got going and oncehe had sort of established
(10:23):
himself Although, you know, hewas very definitely looked down
upon and frowned upon by fellowofficers.
And, you know, indeed, I've sortof read somewhere, and I was
trying to remember before...
We started talking where I'dread this and I'm sure it's
only, you know, it's a secondarysource and it's reliability I'm
(10:46):
not sure about.
But I did read that actually hewasn't exactly highly,
necessarily highly regarded bythe ground crews and mechanics
and what have you, simplybecause they couldn't quite get
their head around the fact that,you know, To them, it was like,
(11:10):
no, this isn't how it works.
But I don't know about the truthof that, but it's an interesting
story nevertheless.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
a bit of the manic magic going on there again,
maybe something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Well, yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So 40 squadron, I think theywere, they balloon busters.
So they were firing atobservation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean his, his tally, you know,of, of kills, which would come
on later.
I mean, you know, there were,there were a good few, um,
balloons about, uh, around them.
I think, uh, no, I, I tell alie.
No, I think he actually only gotone balloon in total.
I may be wrong about that.
Um, But yes, but, you know, ofthe squadrons that he served
(11:53):
with, he later went on to 74 and85 squadron.
And without putting 40 squadrondown in any way, you know, the
two squadrons that are famousstill today, although I think
they're both squadrons that arenow stood down, but 74 and 85
squadron have been consistently,you know, very famous squadrons
(12:14):
with famous leaders, you know,74 squadron in the Second World
War, you know, You had SailorMilan, 85 Squadron, you had
Peter Townsend.
So they've been the kind oftop-drawer fighter squadrons, if
you like, from the very outset.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
And along the way in his career, having come from
that kind of unusual backgroundand not looked upon well in
terms of officers or even theground crew, as you said, he
picked up a mighty string ofdecorations.
So he must have been doingsomething right.
Was it DSO and two bars, MC andbar?
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
Yeah, I think, well, it was...
So he gets his first MC inSeptember 17.
He gets a bar to that in October17.
And...
DSO was recommended in May 1918.
But of course, he died in thatsummer anyway.
(13:12):
And then it gets a bar to theDSO also in September.
So, I mean, it's just anastonishing tally of
decorations.
And And then, of course,ultimately, posthumously, he's
awarded the Victoria Cross.
So not only is he the highestscoring fighter pilot, I mean,
(13:38):
he's almost certainly, Ibelieve, the best.
most decorated.
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
And when we look at that kind of string of
decorations and the tally thatyou had of victories over the
battlefield there's a kind ofanother side to it I guess for
pilots like him because thelonger they survive I guess the
more stressful potentially itbecomes for them thinking about
what their eventual fate mightbe.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Yeah well that's interesting because one of the
letters in which fortunately Ikept copies of all the letters
that the family had and someother letters of his had been
published over the years indifferent publications, but
these letters hadn't been seenbefore.
And he writes a letter not thatlong before his death to his
(14:24):
sister, who I think was Juliafrom memory.
Sorry, I'm not absolutely sure.
I know his mother was Julia, Ibelieve, but I think he had a
sister, Julia.
And he wrote to his sister tosay, oh...
I've been awarded the DSO.
I understand I'm going to beawarded the DSO.
(14:46):
And it's a pretty little whitecross.
And then he says, however, youknow, the way things are going,
I'm pretty sure that I'll getanother type of white cross
before very long.
You know, and it's just, youknow, it's quite an astonishing
thing to say to his sister.
But, you know, he must haverealised that I guess that he
was quite probably living onborrowed time
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
yeah I mean I guess when you you see the kind of
casualties that the RFC and theRAF had particularly at certain
periods of the war and yousomehow survive you must wonder
how am I going to continue tosurvive like that
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
absolutely yeah absolutely but you know he'd
established you know his owntactics and sort of routines and
you know things that undoubtedlykept him I guess alive up until
that point a degree of luck hascome into it as well I'm sure.
But, you know, he ends upgetting killed, basically
(15:42):
breaking one of his own goldenrules, you know, which was don't
follow your quarry down.
But anyway, I'm sure we'll comeon to that in a bit.
But I mean, so I might bejumping ahead here a bit.
But yeah, it was, it must havebeen, you know, a desperate kind
of existence, really.
(16:02):
You know, there's thisperception of it being, you
know, glamorous and, you know,far removed from the muck and
the filth of the trenches andall that stuff.
But actually, you know, yoursurvivability is, I don't know,
statistically, I'm sure it'sbeen looked at, but, you know,
I'm sure that he probably wouldhave been safer in the trenches.
(16:23):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, I mean, I guess the survival rate, you
know, in terms of percentagemust have been on the low side
when you look at these kind ofcasualties.
Yeah.
And when you read the kind ofliterature of that period,
there's a lot of reference toquite heavy drinking amongst
pilots in there to cope with it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure that I don't.
I'm not sure, actually.
I don't think that.
that Mick Manick was a drinker.
But anyway, I may be wrong onthat.
So I stand to be corrected.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Well, I mean, maybe it was smoking because that was
kind of the other vice of theday, wasn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (16:59):
yeah.
I think, you know, if I'd havebeen there, I think I almost
certainly would have been adrinker and definitely a chain
smoker.
And I definitely don't smoke.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Well, it's incredible how they kind of
stood it for so long when we seenot just the war in the air, but
kind of any aspect of the FirstWorld War, isn't it really?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Incredible, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
So, I mean, you mentioned that last flight of
Mick Mannock, and he wasn't upalone, was he?
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
No, he was with a chap called Lieutenant Inglis.
And, you know, they spotted aGerman...
scout over a place called LeStrem.
And the thing was shot down.
You know, Inglis had a go at it.
And Mannock then followed theaircraft down inexplicably,
(17:53):
really, and was hit by groundfire.
You know, his aircraft was seento catch fire.
And we do know that one of thethings that that Mannock was
especially fearful of.
And I'm sure that, well, itwasn't just Mannock, but he
spoke about the fear of burningalive because of course, you
(18:15):
know, they had no means ofescape, no parachute.
And, you know, he dies just, youknow, it just seems so
incredibly pointless and stupidreally that he ends up getting
killed in that way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Do you think it was a kind of momentary lapse in
concentration or distractionmaybe?
Or had he got to a point wherehe couldn't carry on?
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Who knows?
I mean, it's one of these thingsthat, you know, there's all
sorts of possibilities, aren'tthere?
You know, I suppose we can'teven rule out the possibility
that, you know, the reason thathe went down low, you know, was
he actually following theaircraft down or had he himself
got some problems?
You know, there's so manypossibilities.
unknowns to this.
(19:02):
And, you know, we can put allsorts of constructions on it,
really.
I think from everything that weknow, it does seem, and from
Inglis's testimony, it does infact seem that he did follow his
victim down.
Yeah.
Or the victim, shall I say.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
So he gets shot down there, and how do you reckon
kind of Inglis must have feltabout that, coming back to base
to report that Mannock had beenshot down and most likely
killed?
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
Well, that's right.
You know, Inglis himself ends upsort of force landing, you know,
inside British lines.
And as I recall, what I thinkhis first words were, they got
my major.
You know, he must have been, youknow, because he was a sort of,
you know, a newbie, as it were.
Yeah, he must have beendistraught as well.
(19:47):
Bearing in mind that he's sortof new to the game, suddenly
he's seen somebody who's an oldhand, got all those kills, get
shot down and killed in front ofhis eyes.
That's not exactly going to putyou in a very good frame of mind
for continuing on, is it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
No, and not the kind of news you want to go back to
as a fairly young andinexperienced pilot back to
headquarters to relay that tothe fellow officers in your
squadron.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
No, exactly so, exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
But Manit was gone.
I mean, I guess there would havebeen a degree of looking to see
what might have happened at thetime, but not a kind of a proper
court of inquiry or anythinglike that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
No, I mean, you know, those sort of things, as
far as I'm aware, didn't reallyhappen, you know.
It was just another incident inthe war, wasn't it?
You know, okay, you know, he wasa significant player in terms of
his fame and popularity and allthat sort of stuff.
But really, you know, he wasjust another casualty.
(20:47):
And, you know, sadly, you know,he was just one of...
you know, countless casualtiesthat, so, you know, holding sort
of inquiries into what hadhappened would have been pretty
futile.
I'm sure that, you know, whenpilots were shot down or when
(21:10):
things went wrong, there wouldhave been perhaps a, you know,
an inquiry and inverted commaswithin the unit, you know, to
say, well, what went wrongthere?
What can we do better?
How can we make sure things likethis don't happen again?
But in terms of any otherinquiry, then no.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
So I guess his name is just another name in the long
list of the role of honour forthe air services in the Great
War at that time.
But there is this kind of movetowards him being awarded a
Victoria Cross posthumouslyfollowing his death.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yes, yeah.
I mean, that was not until 1919.
And, you know, there was a...
There was a lot of pressure alsobeing put on the authorities at
the time by one of Mannock'sfriends to actually find where
Mannock was actually buriedbecause that is the big mystery
(22:03):
of this whole story really.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
And I guess at the time probably they had a rough
idea of where his aircraftcrashed and possibly thought
that at some point a graveregistration unit would...
come across that ground, find abody, see it was an aviator, you
know, did he have something inhis pocket to say who he was,
identity disc, whatever.
They probably assumed that hewould be recovered, but he
(22:26):
wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Well, he was recovered.
The Germans did, he came down,you know, inside the German
lines.
And we know that the Germans didfind him because, you know, his
identity discs were sent back tothe family.
He was definitely found andidentified.
(22:47):
There's no question about that.
The question mark really isexactly where was he buried?
And that's where the confusionlies.
And also, you know, moving onfrom there, where is he buried
now?
it's one of those stories thatactually it's quite difficult to
(23:10):
get your head round and it'svery difficult to get all the
details across in a chat likethis.
But when you sit down and lookat all the paperwork, it's very,
very clear that A, the Germansburied him, but where they
reported him, they buried himwas actually an impossibility
because the map reference seemedto indicate that it was in no
(23:32):
man's land.
Well, nobody's going to be goingout in no man's land to bury
anybody, whether they're yoursor theirs.
And the most likely scenario isthat he was buried alongside a a
little lane which the British,it was at a place called La
Pierre Aubert.
And there's a lane there whichthe British knew as Butter Lane.
(23:58):
And he was almost certainlyburied alongside Butter Lane.
And In fact, you and I, manyyears ago, of course, when we
did the documentary, we met inButter Lane and we...
In fact, you took me withyour...
I think it was the linesman.
(24:19):
It was, yeah.
And we actually sort of walkedexactly to the spot where, you
know, we believe he wasoriginally buried, which
corresponds, you know, fairly...
closely to where a body wasfound by the grave registration
service.
But because that body, becausethere was no grave marker left,
(24:41):
and because that body was notwhere the Germans said they
buried him or where the Britishthought the Germans said they
buried him, and that's anotherissue altogether, he was just
buried as an unknown airman.
They assumed him, couldn't findany identification um that's
possibly because anyidentification on him had been
(25:02):
removed by the germans and andsent back to say hey you know
we've got we've buried uh majormanic so it you know it's just
one of those unfortunate thingsreally that proving that um that
he was found at that locationand then reburied at what's now
(25:25):
the Commonwealth War GraveCemetery at Laventie, it's an
uphill struggle.
I don't hold out much hope thatwe will ever prove it or at
least satisfy the authoritiesthat this is the grave of Manak.
And there's lots of reasons forthat.
(25:48):
Interestingly, many years ago,there was a chap called Edwin
Gibson who worked for theCommonwealth War Graves
Commission, and he actuallywrote a book called Courage
Remembered.
I'm sure it's probably on yourbookshelves, Paul.
It is.
Yeah.
Now, Edwin Gibson, I was intouch with him once I got sort
of into this whole thing, intothis particular subject.
(26:08):
And he wrote a report whichsaid, this has got to be major
manic.
The report says, wasn't acted onand was buried somewhere in the
Commonwealth War GravesCommission archives, and they
cannot find it, unfortunately.
So we don't really know exactlywhat he said.
He has since deceased,obviously, some years ago.
(26:29):
But one of the things that wasreally very interesting and came
about as a result of myaccidental contact with Peter
Burden was that I encouragePeter Burden to write to the
Commonwealth War GravesCommission to ask for a copy of
what I believe the War GravesCommission called their EE file,
(26:51):
which is an inquiry file.
because I'd asked for thisbefore and they said no no you
know you can't have that it'sclosed etc etc and wouldn't even
let anyone view it at that time.
Well lo and behold theyinitially told Peter Burden that
no he couldn't have it.
He then went through his MP andwithin about a week this large
(27:14):
parcel had arrived with Peterwhich he then passed to me and
it included all thecorrespondence, all the reports,
unfortunately not the one fromEdwin Gibson, but all of the
historic stuff, going back toMannock's loss, the war graves
service, you know, gravesregistration service, trying to
(27:34):
work out what on earth hadhappened, trying to make sense
of these different mapreferences.
There was piles ofcorrespondence, you know, I
mean, there was even...
bizarre correspondence from youknow some rather sort of crazy
people in I can't remember wherethey were now who said oh no
Mick Mannock's alive and welland he's living with me but he
doesn't want to be disturbed youknow it was the most fascinating
(27:56):
file of correspondence but therewas one correspondent who stood
out and there's a chap calledJim Isles and he was he was just
insistent that you know that thegrave was found and he kept on
and on and on and tantalising methere's two or three people
documents in that file.
(28:16):
And they came so, so close tosaying, yeah, this is manic.
But then somebody at a stroke ofa pen said, no, it's not enough
evidence.
He must remain missing.
And the case was closed.
Now, where he's buried in thatcemetery has also been the
subject of some, I don't know,debate, if you like, because
(28:39):
people have said, well, hang on,you know, he's buried in this
row of soldiers as an unknownairman.
But if you look at the date ofhis death, it doesn't tally with
the people that are buriedeither side of him.
Well, that argument simplydoesn't stack up because if you
walk around that cemetery,they're all muddled up.
They're all, you know, all sortsof dates, you know, 1916.
(28:59):
Then you get a 1917 and then a1915.
And the reason for that, Ibelieve, and I'm sure you'd be
able to confirm this is thecase, Paul, is that these are
largely battlefield dates.
burials that were brought in andconcentrated in that cemetery.
So they're buried as they'rebrought in, not by date order as
(29:20):
they've died.
So therefore, his position interms of the date of his death
is not relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
No, no, I'd agree.
I think that the other burialsthere are complete red herrings
in terms of where or where hemay not have come from and who
he may or may not be.
Because, you know, you mentionedBusser Lane where he crashed.
That had been an area, as youknow, behind the British lines
for a big chunk of the war untilthe German offensive in what the
(29:48):
British called the Battle of theLease in April 18 happened.
And really, there probablyweren't that many candidates for
recovery in that area becausethere had not been as intense
fighting that resulted in lotsof missing.
So I guess that what's in thatplot where he's buried is a much
wider sweep of recoveredcasualties from a much wider
(30:11):
area, not just from Butter Lane.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
No, no, I'm sure you're absolutely right.
And in fact, when the case waslooked at in 19...
1919, 1920, and up to 1921, theydid actually start to ask the
question, well, are there anyother possible candidates?
(30:34):
And the answer that they came upwith, well, there were three
that may possibly be, that wereshot down in that general area.
But I think they were all, frommemory, I think they were all
discounted.
So we again come back to italmost certainly being manic,
but being unable to prove it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
So there's all this circumstantial evidence, and
obviously a lot of people havekind of put their two pennies in
over the years to try and getthat grave properly identified,
but still there's no kind ofmovement on that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
No.
In fact, the book that youmentioned that I did some years
ago, I wrote it with NormanFranks, the late Norman Franks,
who's a great friend of mine andsort of near neighbour at the
time.
And the First World War aviationwas his big thing.
And Norman and I, after the bookcame out, we put together a very
(31:24):
detailed argument which we sentto the historical branch to say,
you know, we think that thisis...
you know, there's a good casefor this being Mannock's grave.
And to be fair to them, youknow, they looked at it, they
dissected it.
And since we did the book, wecame up with some other
interesting German reports,which sort of indicated that,
(31:50):
well, sorry, not German reports,a British report, a war diary,
which talked about the, a partyof Germans being seen to go to
the wreck, which can only beMannocks, and actually removing
things from the wreck site.
(32:11):
They'd been observed doing that.
And they disappeared behind someor near some buildings, which
actually were the buildings,Paul, that you and I looked at
on that linesman thing.
And I remember we sort ofcrashed about in the undergrowth
there.
And that's pretty muchexactly...
the map reference where theGermans were seen disappearing.
Well, you know, begs thequestion, were they disappearing
(32:33):
around the corner of thatbuilding to bury, you know, poor
old Mick?
But as you say, you know, it'scircumstantial.
All of it's circumstantial.
But, you know, one of these dayswhen I get the time, I'm going
to try to put together the caseagain to say, look, you know,
(32:54):
could this possibly be looked atagain.
One thing actually that so manypeople say to me, and I know
that you'll corroborate this,people say, well, you know,
surely could we not, could theCommonwealth War Graves
Commission not exhume him and doDNA testing?
(33:15):
The answer to that is absolutelya firm no.
As you know, the CommonwealthWar Graves Commission are
implacably and quite rightlyopposed to any exhumations of
existing burials, unless thereare overriding reasons to do so.
And I can't think what theymight be.
But in actual fact, I mean, theother thing which, you know,
(33:38):
it's slightly sort of sensitive,I suppose, but you get these,
you know, very orderedCommonwealth war graves,
cemeteries, which don'tnecessarily bear much
relationship in terms in termsof, well, that's not entirely
true, but if you compare thephotographs of these wonderful
rows of white stones with thealmost higgledy-piggledy rows of
(34:00):
crosses, the War GrowsCommission themselves has sort
of pointed out that there wasscope for those crosses to have
got muddled and put in the wrongplace.
And also, particularly if youhad a whole series of burials
very close together, it doesn'tnecessarily follow that that
headstone is absolutely directlyright over that person's grave.
(34:24):
You know, that's the reality.
So if anyone were to be exhumedfrom there, and they're not
going to be, you know, youcouldn't be sure that you've got
manic anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
No, no, no.
I mean, you're absolutely right.
You see a lot of anomalies withthese war cemeteries and
pictures of them during theSecond World War taken by
Germans in some cases show theheadstones pointing in a
completely different directionin some cemeteries to what we
know them as now so there's beenall kinds of remedial work and
additions to it but I mean goingback to what remains could be
(34:54):
recovered even if that waspossible which as you've said is
not War Graves Commission policyand I think that's probably the
right decision because once youstart disturbing graves kind of
where does that where does thatend and I think that's But the
reality is, what would they findunderneath?
Even if that was definitely thegrave that it had come from, the
cemeteries belie the reality ofdeath on a First World War
(35:17):
battlefield, don't they really?
Because they look incrediblybeautiful and the white stone,
but the reality is often there'svery little left of someone
who's buried underneath some ofthose stones.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely the case,
yeah.
But, you know, I think it'sworth another shot to try and
get an official decision, youknow, I won't say overturned.
I mean, I looked at it again.
One of the things that attractedmy attention when I was at a
(35:49):
cemetery recently in France wasa stone, and I'm sure you'll be
familiar with these, and itactually said, believe to be,
right?
And, you know, that got methinking, well, you know, with
all the evidence that we've got,you know, could they not just
move to that level and say, youknow, believe to be?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
Well, I mean, that's certainly something that was
done.
There's quite a few cemeterieswhich have got headstones that
believe to be all buried nearthis spot and there's kind of
variations on that.
But I think in the 90s when JohnKipling's grave was looked at
and then a headstone was buriedYes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
Yeah, exactly.
And you could say, I suppose,rightly so.
But in actual fact, youmentioned the case of Kipling.
And my understanding is thatlargely due to the controversy
that was stirred up after thatand the question marks that were
placed over the decision, upuntil that point, it was, if you
(37:20):
like, within the gift of theCommonwealth War Grows
Commission to decide on thenaming of headstones of
casualties who, quotes, were intheir care.
But after that episode, it soonbecame, and that's how things
are now, the norm that the AirHistorical Branch or the Army
(37:41):
Historical Branch, NavalHistorical Branch, they would be
the final arbiters.
They would look at any case thatwas presented to them to say,
you know, we've got thisheadstone to this unknown
airman, soldier, sailor,whatever.
And it would be they alone whowould make that decision and
actually, you know, theninstruct the War Graves
(38:04):
Commission to replace theheadstone.
It's a bit of a shame, really,that Well, no, I think that is
the right decision.
But in a way, it's a shame thatwhatever it was that Edwin
Gibson, who was, I think, therecords officer for the War
Graves Commission, you know, heput this in his report.
And I think I think I'm right insaying it's in his book that
this has to be the grave ofManuk.
(38:26):
So if they were operating underthe rules that they were
operating under there at thattime, in other words, pre
Kipling, then, you know, hecould well have ended up with a
headstone with his name on it.
I think anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean...
Just so people listening to thisare clear, Mick is commemorated,
he's on the air servicesmemorial at Arras, but I think
that your research and theresearch of those who've put
forward the case of getting thatgrave identified and changed, I
think is also an important partof the continuing remembrance of
(39:01):
the First World War, becausehistory doesn't stand still,
does it?
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
No, absolutely, and you know, I guess this chat with
you has kind of sparked myinterest again, and I think I'll
get the files out and you knowwe'll have another look at it I
think you know it's not beyondthe realms of possibility that
someone will look at it and sayyeah actually the evidence is
pretty overwhelming who knowsand but as you say he is
(39:28):
commemorated as indeed anyonewho is missing is commemorated
somewhere by the War GravesCommission and his name is on
the Flying Services Memorial atArras but yeah you know it would
be it would be nice to see hisname on that headstone.
Because, you know, personally,I'm convinced it has to be him.
(39:49):
And it's, you know, I knowthere's a danger of when you get
so involved in this, you know,of wanting it to be that person.
But, you know, I've stood backand looked at it and I've looked
at all the evidence and I'mthinking, well, you know, it's
got to be him.
Because, you know, there are somany elements to this story
where...
(40:09):
that don't make sense in termsof where they thought they'd
exhumed this body from, orrather where they thought the
Germans had buried him.
You know, when you start to, youknow, add up all the dots, as it
were, and you get a picture,which is, I think, pretty
convincing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:26):
Well, if it's not Mick, who is it?
I mean, that's, I guess, is oneof the big questions involved in
that.
And I certainly hope that you dokind of return to your research
and put this forward again,because...
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
I think so.
But I mean, I think it's alsojust to say, you know, I mean,
this research, if you like,isn't uniquely mine.
I came into it after otherpeople had looked at it and come
to the same conclusion, butthey'd come to the same
conclusion without the weight ofevidence that I then uncovered
through the Wargraves e-files,if you like, which just, you
(41:05):
know, made the case stronger.
I
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
mean, that's the bit I think most people haven't
seen.
I remember Tony Spagnoliactually in the kind of 90s was
working on the idea of a bookabout Manak and he wanted to try
and prove this as well.
And he went all over the countryand visited places where Manak
had been.
He went to a house actually, Ithink at Hendon, where Manak had
been for a short while and heasked to see Manak's room.
(41:26):
He knocked on this door of thisfamily house house and they
showed him inside and he said Iwant to see the the room at the
front on the left they took himup there when he opened the door
the walls were covered inwallpaper that showed the the
sky and the clouds and hangingfrom the ceiling were model
aircraft and uh and he kind oflooked at surprised at this and
(41:48):
then the mother said to him yesever since we've moved here you
know our son has been absolutelyobsessed with aircraft and this
was the son's room so yeah yeahthe ghost of Mick was kind of
still hanging around in
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
there.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
A fascinating story.
But there is a danger, though,you know, when you do get close
to a subject, and I know thatyou'll bear this out, you need
somebody to look at itobjectively from outside to say,
look, here's the evidence, youknow, because...
I wouldn't deny that, yes, Ikind of do want it to be manic,
(42:23):
but I only want it to be manicif it is him.
Do you know what I mean?
I just need somebody toobjectively and forensically go
through it all and just tell methat I'm not completely crazy
and that, yeah.
it's him.
SPEAKER_00 (42:39):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's because thestories of these men and women
who were in these two greatconflicts of the 20th century
that, you know, we've spent ourlifetimes kind of researching
are so powerful that we get sokind of connected to them.
And like you say, you want it tobe that person.
And I think that's why it's goodthat there is a check, which is
the way the War GravesCommission and the MOD war
(43:01):
detectives and all the othersare involved in this now kind of
operate because it means thatsomeone can take a step back
and, and look at it out.
outside of our eyes, as it were.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
That's exactly the case.
And, you know, really, itperhaps would have been, you
know, I say that he could haveperhaps had a name stone had
things been taken forward byEdwin Gibson.
But on the other hand, you know,would we then have been in a
situation you know, like theKipling case where, you know,
somebody then afterwards, youknow, said, well, hang on a
(43:32):
minute, you know, could it, soit does need an objective
assessment by somebody who, youknow, doesn't have a particular
angle, if you like.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
And just kind of coming back to a kind of aspect
of Mick's life, he comes fromthis humble background.
He's not a traditional kind ofcandidate for entry into the
Royal Flying Corps.
Despite all these problems, heflies, he becomes an incredible
ace.
and then gets shot down andthere's this total mystery about
what actually happened to him.
But there's also the element ofhe's awarded the Victoria Cross
(44:05):
and how long that took to beawarded.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, that is possibly one ofthe more unusual elements of the
story, the fact that it wasposthumous and so long after the
event.
Yeah.
And
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
do you think there were people in the Air Force?
Because, I mean, the Air Forcewas now emerging from a
victorious war, which had playeda major part and had gone from
being bits of the Army, bits ofthe Navy, into becoming an Air
Force.
And it proved its worth, andwarfare had changed forever as a
consequence of it.
Do you think that there wereperhaps people within the Air
(44:43):
Force at that time that thoughtthe recognition of a man like
Manet, working class, I mean,I've read that he was a
socialist even.
I mean, you know, did he fitinto their idea of what a new
Air Force could be?
Do you think that was an elementin it?
No,
SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
it could have been.
Although I don't know, I'd be abit sceptical about that because
I mean, really, you know, theAir Force and the officer elite,
if you want to call it that, youknow, continued, you know, well
on into the, at least theopening era, the opening sort of
period of the Second World War,really.
So I don't know really that thatwould have played into it.
(45:21):
You could be right.
It's an interesting possibility.
But, you know, you mentionedthat, yes, he was a socialist.
And so, again, you know, there'sanother reason why he wouldn't
have particularly fitted in inthe mess.
And there's a lot of speculationabout, you know, had he
survived, would he have been anIrish nationalist?
You know, who knows?
(45:42):
I don't know.
I think putting those sort ofinterpretations on people.
what may have been, is a bit ofa dangerous path to go down,
really.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Yeah, I mean, that kind of history, you could
endlessly speculate aboutthings.
But in terms of his legacy, Imean, you being a Second World
War aviation historian, What isthe legacy of pilots like
Mannock to that generation thatwent on to fly in the Second
World War?
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Oh, it was huge.
You know, there are so manyBattle of Britain pilots who,
you know, I was fortunate enoughto know, you know, I knew
dozens, scores and scores ofthem, just as you did, you know,
with First World War veteransback in the day.
But And also a lot of thebiographies and autobiographies
(46:31):
of Second Marlborough pilotsmake reference to people like
Mannock, McCudden, Albert Ball.
These were all people that, youknow, they grew up as teenagers,
you know, young boys, idolisingthese people.
And they were, you know, so...
they had a huge, huge impact onthe generation that came along
(46:54):
after them.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
And Manick and McCudden and Albert Ball and
Billy Bishop and so many otherskind of created this culture of
knights of the air, of aces,that went on, I guess, to be
repeated again in the finesthour in 1940 with this idea of
defending Britain from theskies.
SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
You're right, it did.
I mean, for want of a betterword, the cult of the fighter
ace was born in the First WorldWar and it's never gone away.
And, you know, it was peoplelike Mannock who created that.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Well, I mean, I think this is a fascinating
subject, Andy, and I really dohope that you kind of return to
your research and maybe see whatcan be done.
If nothing else, I think itbrings Mick's name and his story
and everything that he did andall of those pilots of the Great
War kind of back into publicfocus.
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, I...
I think so.
I hope so.
And, you know, I know that theMannock family, I haven't had
contact with them for a longwhile now, but the Burden
family, you know, were delightedat the interest that was
suddenly shown in him.
And, you know, in fact, I tookPeter out and he laid a wreath
(48:09):
on the grave of who, you know,that might be his great uncle.
So, yeah, it's...
It's important that they'reremembered.
SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
And all part of the ever-turning pages of history.
SPEAKER_01 (48:24):
Absolutely so,
SPEAKER_00 (48:24):
yeah.
Thanks, Andy.
That's a great chat aboutMcMannock, and I really
appreciate you taking the timeto join us for this special run
of programmes that we're doingon The War in the Air.
SPEAKER_01 (48:35):
It's been an absolute pleasure, Paul.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
Thanks, Andy.
Speak soon.
www.oldfrontline.co.ukpatreon.com slash old front line
(49:13):
or support us on buy me a coffeeat buymeacoffee.com slash old
front line links to all of theseare on our website thanks for
listening and we'll see youagain soon
Mick Mannock was one of the great aviators of the
First World War and one ofBritain's top scoring aces.
In this episode of the specialAir War series of the Old Front
Line, we speak to Andy Saundersabout Mick's life and death
above the battlefields of theWestern Front.
(00:26):
Welcome to this episode of thespecial Air War Month on the Old
Front Line, where we're lookingat the experience of the Royal
Flying Corps and the Royal AirForce over the Western Front.
And I'm really pleased to bejoined by Andy Saunders.
Andy is an aviation and militaryhistorian, author of numerous
books, former editor of Britainat War and Iron Cross magazines,
(00:48):
and a regular broadcaster.
Many years ago Andy and I workedon a BBC time watch called Aces
Falling where Andy spoke abouthis work on the death and burial
of First World War air aceEdward Mick Manick and later
wrote a book on the subject.
In this episode we return toMick to look at his life and
death in the Great War.
(01:09):
So welcome Andy thanks forjoining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
Hello Paul and thank you for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Now You're more known for your work on the
Second World War, particularlythings like the Battle of
Britain and subjects like that.
You don't often venture into theFirst World War.
So how did that start with Mick?
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Absolutely.
No, you're completely right.
I mean, I suppose I would haveto say that the First World War
and the air war in the FirstWorld War is somewhat outside of
my comfort zone, as it were.
I mean, it's not a subject thatI'm entirely unfamiliar with,
obviously, but it's It's not thearea that I normally work in.
(01:47):
Obviously, the story of McManachis known to anyone and everyone
who has any interest in militaryaviation in any case.
But how it was sparked for mewas actually quite an
extraordinary story in that oneSunday many years ago, I don't
(02:08):
know, 2014, plus years ago.
I just happened to be at a localboot fair.
And, you know, sometimes whenthe stallholders turn up, it's
like sort of bees around ahoneypot, you know, as people
are crowded around to see whatgoodies are coming out of the
car.
And my attention was drawn tothis particular car, which had a
(02:31):
lot of people gathering aroundit.
And strapped to the roof of thisVolvo was a clearly a very old
wooden two-bladed propeller.
So I made my way over to try andget it, got there too late, but
I ended up in conversation, justrandomly in conversation with a
chap who was also trying to gethold of this propeller.
(02:52):
And he sort of turned to me andhe said, oh, are you, you know,
are you interested in this sortof thing?
So I said, well, yes, you know,it's, you know, but I said,
mainly second motor bore.
And he said, oh, that's a shame.
He said, you probably won't haveheard of my great uncle then so
I said oh well try me who wasyour great uncle and he said
(03:15):
well his name was Mannock so Isaid what Mick Mannock and he
said yeah yeah he said um hesaid you know he's my great
uncle and this chap Peter Burdenum it just turned out I mean he
lived in the next street to meat the time I mean it was just
incredible and I went around tosee him that afternoon and And
lo and behold, he got a load oforiginal letters, all in a
(03:38):
little wooden chest, marked, itwas actually marked Captain
Mannock.
And there were letters that he'dsent to his sister and to his
mother.
And there was his commissiondocument.
I think there was, well, therewas just a mass of stuff,
original photographs.
(03:59):
And yeah, I just couldn'tbelieve it.
You know, it was justastonishing.
he'd got a Peter had a brotherand his brother, his first name
was actually Mannock.
So it was Mannock Burden.
And he looked absolutely exactlylike Mick Mannock.
And this was just, to me, thiswas just the most remarkable
(04:19):
thing.
And that just drew me into thestory.
And I started to look at thebackground of what had happened
to Mannock.
You know, I didn't know the fullstory of his disappearance.
And, you know, I cannot claim tobe the first person who's
researched and looked at andcome to the conclusion as to
(04:41):
where he was buried which we'regoing to come on to later I know
but I thought well you know I'llget a little deeper into this
and you know the rest as theysay is history.
I
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
mean what a remarkable kind of coincidence
to meet someone who lives soclose to you connected to one of
the most famous air races of theGreat
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
War.
I know I mean you know it justdoesn't happen does it you know
but you know it It happened, andit was just astonishing.
And initially, at the time, Iwas involved with the Aviation
Museum at Tangmere, and PeterBurden actually loaned the
(05:21):
museum all of the artefacts fora while, but eventually the
family decided to put them upfor auction, but that's another
story.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So, I mean, Mick is an unusual pilot in so many
different ways, in particularthat he doesn't kind of fit that
standard idea of a Royal FlyingCorps pilot observer in that he
didn't come from a public schoolkind of officey, posh
background, that he was fromquite a humble background,
wasn't he?
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
He was from a very, very humble background.
And as you say, he just didn'tfit in.
He was of Irish descent and hewasn't public school.
There were so many things abouthim that were just not your
typical, he wasn't exactly theepitome of what we all imagined
(06:10):
a Royal Flying Corps pilot orobserver to be.
In fact, just the opposite.
And his route into the RoyalFlying Corps was sort of a
slightly unusual one.
And, you know, you also havethis man who actually had, you
know, poor eyesight, you know.
So, you know, you've got a chapwho doesn't fit the mould, he's
(06:34):
got poor eyesight, and yet heends up becoming, you know,
almost certainly the highestscoring fighter pilot of the
Royal Flying Corps slash RAFever.
It's an incredible story.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
And is there even some debate about where he was
actually born?
I mean, I remember someonesaying to me he was born in
Brighton, but...
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Yeah, there's a lot of dispute as to where he was
actually born and when he wasborn.
I mean, there's different yearsthat have been given.
I mean, I think we've got 14thof May, 1887 seems to be the
most likely.
But interestingly, the MOD a fewyears ago, and I presume that
(07:16):
was the...
historical branch, I can'tremember now, said, no, no, it
was 1888.
And another source says 1889.
And then we've got differentbirth locations because nobody,
to my knowledge, has evertracked down a birth
certificate.
So we've got Brighton,Canterbury, Aldershot, India,
somewhere in India, or Cork.
(07:38):
And so, you know, there's amystery here.
as to where he was born.
So there's so many mysteriesabout this man.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
I get what I was going to say.
They kind of start with his verybirth, these mysteries.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We end up with a mystery abouthis death, but it starts off
with his birth being mysterious.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
And when the war broke out in 1914, he wasn't
serving in any form of militaryservice.
I think he was a telephoneengineer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
Yeah, that's right.
He was a telephone engineer.
Yeah.
And so he wasn't a military manas such.
Yeah, just a very, very strangebackground and route into what
he became.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
And out in Turkey, I think, where they interned him
for a little while once Turkeyentered the war.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he was interned in Turkey andeventually was released and came
back.
And he had served for a time, Ibelieve, in the Royal Army
Medical Corps.
But, you know, once he'd...
joined up and actually his, andstarted, eventually started
(08:56):
flying training.
I mean, he, he, how he actuallymade it through the training is
a bit of a miracle.
I mean, he, he was not exactly apromising pilot to say the very,
very least, you know, so hewasn't a promising pilot.
He's got poor eyesight.
You know, there's not, And hedoesn't come from the right
school or any school.
You know, this chap is, youknow, hopeless case.
(09:18):
You know, he's never going tomake fighter pilot, let alone
fighter race.
You know, that's the generalfeeling about him.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
But I guess for ordinary men like him, the route
to this was through technicalknowledge.
Yes.
Yeah.
Rather than what theirbackground was, it was what they
knew.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
And I mean, there are others,you know, not exactly identical
background, but, you know, youhave McCudden, you know, and
various others who were verygood technically and as
engineers and what have you.
So, yes, that is true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
But he gets that opportunity to do flying
training and gets put into, isit 40 Squadron?
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yeah, he started off with 40 Squadron and his record
there was not exactly stellar.
And gradually, he's one ofthese, he was a bit of a, to say
the very least, a slow starter.
But once he got going and oncehe had sort of established
(10:23):
himself Although, you know, hewas very definitely looked down
upon and frowned upon by fellowofficers.
And, you know, indeed, I've sortof read somewhere, and I was
trying to remember before...
We started talking where I'dread this and I'm sure it's
only, you know, it's a secondarysource and it's reliability I'm
(10:46):
not sure about.
But I did read that actually hewasn't exactly highly,
necessarily highly regarded bythe ground crews and mechanics
and what have you, simplybecause they couldn't quite get
their head around the fact that,you know, To them, it was like,
(11:10):
no, this isn't how it works.
But I don't know about the truthof that, but it's an interesting
story nevertheless.
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
a bit of the manic magic going on there again,
maybe something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Well, yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So 40 squadron, I think theywere, they balloon busters.
So they were firing atobservation.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean his, his tally, you know,of, of kills, which would come
on later.
I mean, you know, there were,there were a good few, um,
balloons about, uh, around them.
I think, uh, no, I, I tell alie.
No, I think he actually only gotone balloon in total.
I may be wrong about that.
Um, But yes, but, you know, ofthe squadrons that he served
(11:53):
with, he later went on to 74 and85 squadron.
And without putting 40 squadrondown in any way, you know, the
two squadrons that are famousstill today, although I think
they're both squadrons that arenow stood down, but 74 and 85
squadron have been consistently,you know, very famous squadrons
(12:14):
with famous leaders, you know,74 squadron in the Second World
War, you know, You had SailorMilan, 85 Squadron, you had
Peter Townsend.
So they've been the kind oftop-drawer fighter squadrons, if
you like, from the very outset.
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
And along the way in his career, having come from
that kind of unusual backgroundand not looked upon well in
terms of officers or even theground crew, as you said, he
picked up a mighty string ofdecorations.
So he must have been doingsomething right.
Was it DSO and two bars, MC andbar?
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
Yeah, I think, well, it was...
So he gets his first MC inSeptember 17.
He gets a bar to that in October17.
And...
DSO was recommended in May 1918.
But of course, he died in thatsummer anyway.
(13:12):
And then it gets a bar to theDSO also in September.
So, I mean, it's just anastonishing tally of
decorations.
And And then, of course,ultimately, posthumously, he's
awarded the Victoria Cross.
So not only is he the highestscoring fighter pilot, I mean,
(13:38):
he's almost certainly, Ibelieve, the best.
most decorated.
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
And when we look at that kind of string of
decorations and the tally thatyou had of victories over the
battlefield there's a kind ofanother side to it I guess for
pilots like him because thelonger they survive I guess the
more stressful potentially itbecomes for them thinking about
what their eventual fate mightbe.
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Yeah well that's interesting because one of the
letters in which fortunately Ikept copies of all the letters
that the family had and someother letters of his had been
published over the years indifferent publications, but
these letters hadn't been seenbefore.
And he writes a letter not thatlong before his death to his
(14:24):
sister, who I think was Juliafrom memory.
Sorry, I'm not absolutely sure.
I know his mother was Julia, Ibelieve, but I think he had a
sister, Julia.
And he wrote to his sister tosay, oh...
I've been awarded the DSO.
I understand I'm going to beawarded the DSO.
(14:46):
And it's a pretty little whitecross.
And then he says, however, youknow, the way things are going,
I'm pretty sure that I'll getanother type of white cross
before very long.
You know, and it's just, youknow, it's quite an astonishing
thing to say to his sister.
But, you know, he must haverealised that I guess that he
was quite probably living onborrowed time
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
yeah I mean I guess when you you see the kind of
casualties that the RFC and theRAF had particularly at certain
periods of the war and yousomehow survive you must wonder
how am I going to continue tosurvive like that
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
absolutely yeah absolutely but you know he'd
established you know his owntactics and sort of routines and
you know things that undoubtedlykept him I guess alive up until
that point a degree of luck hascome into it as well I'm sure.
But, you know, he ends upgetting killed, basically
(15:42):
breaking one of his own goldenrules, you know, which was don't
follow your quarry down.
But anyway, I'm sure we'll comeon to that in a bit.
But I mean, so I might bejumping ahead here a bit.
But yeah, it was, it must havebeen, you know, a desperate kind
of existence, really.
(16:02):
You know, there's thisperception of it being, you
know, glamorous and, you know,far removed from the muck and
the filth of the trenches andall that stuff.
But actually, you know, yoursurvivability is, I don't know,
statistically, I'm sure it'sbeen looked at, but, you know,
I'm sure that he probably wouldhave been safer in the trenches.
(16:23):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, I mean, I guess the survival rate, you
know, in terms of percentagemust have been on the low side
when you look at these kind ofcasualties.
Yeah.
And when you read the kind ofliterature of that period,
there's a lot of reference toquite heavy drinking amongst
pilots in there to cope with it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure that I don't.
I'm not sure, actually.
I don't think that.
that Mick Manick was a drinker.
But anyway, I may be wrong onthat.
So I stand to be corrected.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Well, I mean, maybe it was smoking because that was
kind of the other vice of theday, wasn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (16:59):
yeah.
I think, you know, if I'd havebeen there, I think I almost
certainly would have been adrinker and definitely a chain
smoker.
And I definitely don't smoke.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Well, it's incredible how they kind of
stood it for so long when we seenot just the war in the air, but
kind of any aspect of the FirstWorld War, isn't it really?
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Incredible, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
So, I mean, you mentioned that last flight of
Mick Mannock, and he wasn't upalone, was he?
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
No, he was with a chap called Lieutenant Inglis.
And, you know, they spotted aGerman...
scout over a place called LeStrem.
And the thing was shot down.
You know, Inglis had a go at it.
And Mannock then followed theaircraft down inexplicably,
(17:53):
really, and was hit by groundfire.
You know, his aircraft was seento catch fire.
And we do know that one of thethings that that Mannock was
especially fearful of.
And I'm sure that, well, itwasn't just Mannock, but he
spoke about the fear of burningalive because of course, you
(18:15):
know, they had no means ofescape, no parachute.
And, you know, he dies just, youknow, it just seems so
incredibly pointless and stupidreally that he ends up getting
killed in that way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Do you think it was a kind of momentary lapse in
concentration or distractionmaybe?
Or had he got to a point wherehe couldn't carry on?
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Who knows?
I mean, it's one of these thingsthat, you know, there's all
sorts of possibilities, aren'tthere?
You know, I suppose we can'teven rule out the possibility
that, you know, the reason thathe went down low, you know, was
he actually following theaircraft down or had he himself
got some problems?
You know, there's so manypossibilities.
unknowns to this.
(19:02):
And, you know, we can put allsorts of constructions on it,
really.
I think from everything that weknow, it does seem, and from
Inglis's testimony, it does infact seem that he did follow his
victim down.
Yeah.
Or the victim, shall I say.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
So he gets shot down there, and how do you reckon
kind of Inglis must have feltabout that, coming back to base
to report that Mannock had beenshot down and most likely
killed?
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
Well, that's right.
You know, Inglis himself ends upsort of force landing, you know,
inside British lines.
And as I recall, what I thinkhis first words were, they got
my major.
You know, he must have been, youknow, because he was a sort of,
you know, a newbie, as it were.
Yeah, he must have beendistraught as well.
(19:47):
Bearing in mind that he's sortof new to the game, suddenly
he's seen somebody who's an oldhand, got all those kills, get
shot down and killed in front ofhis eyes.
That's not exactly going to putyou in a very good frame of mind
for continuing on, is it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
No, and not the kind of news you want to go back to
as a fairly young andinexperienced pilot back to
headquarters to relay that tothe fellow officers in your
squadron.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
No, exactly so, exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
But Manit was gone.
I mean, I guess there would havebeen a degree of looking to see
what might have happened at thetime, but not a kind of a proper
court of inquiry or anythinglike that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
No, I mean, you know, those sort of things, as
far as I'm aware, didn't reallyhappen, you know.
It was just another incident inthe war, wasn't it?
You know, okay, you know, he wasa significant player in terms of
his fame and popularity and allthat sort of stuff.
But really, you know, he wasjust another casualty.
(20:47):
And, you know, sadly, you know,he was just one of...
you know, countless casualtiesthat, so, you know, holding sort
of inquiries into what hadhappened would have been pretty
futile.
I'm sure that, you know, whenpilots were shot down or when
(21:10):
things went wrong, there wouldhave been perhaps a, you know,
an inquiry and inverted commaswithin the unit, you know, to
say, well, what went wrongthere?
What can we do better?
How can we make sure things likethis don't happen again?
But in terms of any otherinquiry, then no.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
So I guess his name is just another name in the long
list of the role of honour forthe air services in the Great
War at that time.
But there is this kind of movetowards him being awarded a
Victoria Cross posthumouslyfollowing his death.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yes, yeah.
I mean, that was not until 1919.
And, you know, there was a...
There was a lot of pressure alsobeing put on the authorities at
the time by one of Mannock'sfriends to actually find where
Mannock was actually buriedbecause that is the big mystery
(22:03):
of this whole story really.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
And I guess at the time probably they had a rough
idea of where his aircraftcrashed and possibly thought
that at some point a graveregistration unit would...
come across that ground, find abody, see it was an aviator, you
know, did he have something inhis pocket to say who he was,
identity disc, whatever.
They probably assumed that hewould be recovered, but he
(22:26):
wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Well, he was recovered.
The Germans did, he came down,you know, inside the German
lines.
And we know that the Germans didfind him because, you know, his
identity discs were sent back tothe family.
He was definitely found andidentified.
(22:47):
There's no question about that.
The question mark really isexactly where was he buried?
And that's where the confusionlies.
And also, you know, moving onfrom there, where is he buried
now?
it's one of those stories thatactually it's quite difficult to
(23:10):
get your head round and it'svery difficult to get all the
details across in a chat likethis.
But when you sit down and lookat all the paperwork, it's very,
very clear that A, the Germansburied him, but where they
reported him, they buried himwas actually an impossibility
because the map reference seemedto indicate that it was in no
(23:32):
man's land.
Well, nobody's going to be goingout in no man's land to bury
anybody, whether they're yoursor theirs.
And the most likely scenario isthat he was buried alongside a a
little lane which the British,it was at a place called La
Pierre Aubert.
And there's a lane there whichthe British knew as Butter Lane.
(23:58):
And he was almost certainlyburied alongside Butter Lane.
And In fact, you and I, manyyears ago, of course, when we
did the documentary, we met inButter Lane and we...
In fact, you took me withyour...
I think it was the linesman.
(24:19):
It was, yeah.
And we actually sort of walkedexactly to the spot where, you
know, we believe he wasoriginally buried, which
corresponds, you know, fairly...
closely to where a body wasfound by the grave registration
service.
But because that body, becausethere was no grave marker left,
(24:41):
and because that body was notwhere the Germans said they
buried him or where the Britishthought the Germans said they
buried him, and that's anotherissue altogether, he was just
buried as an unknown airman.
They assumed him, couldn't findany identification um that's
possibly because anyidentification on him had been
(25:02):
removed by the germans and andsent back to say hey you know
we've got we've buried uh majormanic so it you know it's just
one of those unfortunate thingsreally that proving that um that
he was found at that locationand then reburied at what's now
(25:25):
the Commonwealth War GraveCemetery at Laventie, it's an
uphill struggle.
I don't hold out much hope thatwe will ever prove it or at
least satisfy the authoritiesthat this is the grave of Manak.
And there's lots of reasons forthat.
(25:48):
Interestingly, many years ago,there was a chap called Edwin
Gibson who worked for theCommonwealth War Graves
Commission, and he actuallywrote a book called Courage
Remembered.
I'm sure it's probably on yourbookshelves, Paul.
It is.
Yeah.
Now, Edwin Gibson, I was intouch with him once I got sort
of into this whole thing, intothis particular subject.
(26:08):
And he wrote a report whichsaid, this has got to be major
manic.
The report says, wasn't acted onand was buried somewhere in the
Commonwealth War GravesCommission archives, and they
cannot find it, unfortunately.
So we don't really know exactlywhat he said.
He has since deceased,obviously, some years ago.
(26:29):
But one of the things that wasreally very interesting and came
about as a result of myaccidental contact with Peter
Burden was that I encouragePeter Burden to write to the
Commonwealth War GravesCommission to ask for a copy of
what I believe the War GravesCommission called their EE file,
(26:51):
which is an inquiry file.
because I'd asked for thisbefore and they said no no you
know you can't have that it'sclosed etc etc and wouldn't even
let anyone view it at that time.
Well lo and behold theyinitially told Peter Burden that
no he couldn't have it.
He then went through his MP andwithin about a week this large
(27:14):
parcel had arrived with Peterwhich he then passed to me and
it included all thecorrespondence, all the reports,
unfortunately not the one fromEdwin Gibson, but all of the
historic stuff, going back toMannock's loss, the war graves
service, you know, gravesregistration service, trying to
(27:34):
work out what on earth hadhappened, trying to make sense
of these different mapreferences.
There was piles ofcorrespondence, you know, I
mean, there was even...
bizarre correspondence from youknow some rather sort of crazy
people in I can't remember wherethey were now who said oh no
Mick Mannock's alive and welland he's living with me but he
doesn't want to be disturbed youknow it was the most fascinating
(27:56):
file of correspondence but therewas one correspondent who stood
out and there's a chap calledJim Isles and he was he was just
insistent that you know that thegrave was found and he kept on
and on and on and tantalising methere's two or three people
documents in that file.
(28:16):
And they came so, so close tosaying, yeah, this is manic.
But then somebody at a stroke ofa pen said, no, it's not enough
evidence.
He must remain missing.
And the case was closed.
Now, where he's buried in thatcemetery has also been the
subject of some, I don't know,debate, if you like, because
(28:39):
people have said, well, hang on,you know, he's buried in this
row of soldiers as an unknownairman.
But if you look at the date ofhis death, it doesn't tally with
the people that are buriedeither side of him.
Well, that argument simplydoesn't stack up because if you
walk around that cemetery,they're all muddled up.
They're all, you know, all sortsof dates, you know, 1916.
(28:59):
Then you get a 1917 and then a1915.
And the reason for that, Ibelieve, and I'm sure you'd be
able to confirm this is thecase, Paul, is that these are
largely battlefield dates.
burials that were brought in andconcentrated in that cemetery.
So they're buried as they'rebrought in, not by date order as
(29:20):
they've died.
So therefore, his position interms of the date of his death
is not relevant.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
No, no, I'd agree.
I think that the other burialsthere are complete red herrings
in terms of where or where hemay not have come from and who
he may or may not be.
Because, you know, you mentionedBusser Lane where he crashed.
That had been an area, as youknow, behind the British lines
for a big chunk of the war untilthe German offensive in what the
(29:48):
British called the Battle of theLease in April 18 happened.
And really, there probablyweren't that many candidates for
recovery in that area becausethere had not been as intense
fighting that resulted in lotsof missing.
So I guess that what's in thatplot where he's buried is a much
wider sweep of recoveredcasualties from a much wider
(30:11):
area, not just from Butter Lane.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
No, no, I'm sure you're absolutely right.
And in fact, when the case waslooked at in 19...
1919, 1920, and up to 1921, theydid actually start to ask the
question, well, are there anyother possible candidates?
(30:34):
And the answer that they came upwith, well, there were three
that may possibly be, that wereshot down in that general area.
But I think they were all, frommemory, I think they were all
discounted.
So we again come back to italmost certainly being manic,
but being unable to prove it.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
So there's all this circumstantial evidence, and
obviously a lot of people havekind of put their two pennies in
over the years to try and getthat grave properly identified,
but still there's no kind ofmovement on that.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
No.
In fact, the book that youmentioned that I did some years
ago, I wrote it with NormanFranks, the late Norman Franks,
who's a great friend of mine andsort of near neighbour at the
time.
And the First World War aviationwas his big thing.
And Norman and I, after the bookcame out, we put together a very
(31:24):
detailed argument which we sentto the historical branch to say,
you know, we think that thisis...
you know, there's a good casefor this being Mannock's grave.
And to be fair to them, youknow, they looked at it, they
dissected it.
And since we did the book, wecame up with some other
interesting German reports,which sort of indicated that,
(31:50):
well, sorry, not German reports,a British report, a war diary,
which talked about the, a partyof Germans being seen to go to
the wreck, which can only beMannocks, and actually removing
things from the wreck site.
(32:11):
They'd been observed doing that.
And they disappeared behind someor near some buildings, which
actually were the buildings,Paul, that you and I looked at
on that linesman thing.
And I remember we sort ofcrashed about in the undergrowth
there.
And that's pretty muchexactly...
the map reference where theGermans were seen disappearing.
Well, you know, begs thequestion, were they disappearing
(32:33):
around the corner of thatbuilding to bury, you know, poor
old Mick?
But as you say, you know, it'scircumstantial.
All of it's circumstantial.
But, you know, one of these dayswhen I get the time, I'm going
to try to put together the caseagain to say, look, you know,
(32:54):
could this possibly be looked atagain.
One thing actually that so manypeople say to me, and I know
that you'll corroborate this,people say, well, you know,
surely could we not, could theCommonwealth War Graves
Commission not exhume him and doDNA testing?
(33:15):
The answer to that is absolutelya firm no.
As you know, the CommonwealthWar Graves Commission are
implacably and quite rightlyopposed to any exhumations of
existing burials, unless thereare overriding reasons to do so.
And I can't think what theymight be.
But in actual fact, I mean, theother thing which, you know,
(33:38):
it's slightly sort of sensitive,I suppose, but you get these,
you know, very orderedCommonwealth war graves,
cemeteries, which don'tnecessarily bear much
relationship in terms in termsof, well, that's not entirely
true, but if you compare thephotographs of these wonderful
rows of white stones with thealmost higgledy-piggledy rows of
(34:00):
crosses, the War GrowsCommission themselves has sort
of pointed out that there wasscope for those crosses to have
got muddled and put in the wrongplace.
And also, particularly if youhad a whole series of burials
very close together, it doesn'tnecessarily follow that that
headstone is absolutely directlyright over that person's grave.
(34:24):
You know, that's the reality.
So if anyone were to be exhumedfrom there, and they're not
going to be, you know, youcouldn't be sure that you've got
manic anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
No, no, no.
I mean, you're absolutely right.
You see a lot of anomalies withthese war cemeteries and
pictures of them during theSecond World War taken by
Germans in some cases show theheadstones pointing in a
completely different directionin some cemeteries to what we
know them as now so there's beenall kinds of remedial work and
additions to it but I mean goingback to what remains could be
(34:54):
recovered even if that waspossible which as you've said is
not War Graves Commission policyand I think that's probably the
right decision because once youstart disturbing graves kind of
where does that where does thatend and I think that's But the
reality is, what would they findunderneath?
Even if that was definitely thegrave that it had come from, the
cemeteries belie the reality ofdeath on a First World War
(35:17):
battlefield, don't they really?
Because they look incrediblybeautiful and the white stone,
but the reality is often there'svery little left of someone
who's buried underneath some ofthose stones.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's absolutely the case,
yeah.
But, you know, I think it'sworth another shot to try and
get an official decision, youknow, I won't say overturned.
I mean, I looked at it again.
One of the things that attractedmy attention when I was at a
(35:49):
cemetery recently in France wasa stone, and I'm sure you'll be
familiar with these, and itactually said, believe to be,
right?
And, you know, that got methinking, well, you know, with
all the evidence that we've got,you know, could they not just
move to that level and say, youknow, believe to be?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
Well, I mean, that's certainly something that was
done.
There's quite a few cemeterieswhich have got headstones that
believe to be all buried nearthis spot and there's kind of
variations on that.
But I think in the 90s when JohnKipling's grave was looked at
and then a headstone was buriedYes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
Yeah, exactly.
And you could say, I suppose,rightly so.
But in actual fact, youmentioned the case of Kipling.
And my understanding is thatlargely due to the controversy
that was stirred up after thatand the question marks that were
placed over the decision, upuntil that point, it was, if you
(37:20):
like, within the gift of theCommonwealth War Grows
Commission to decide on thenaming of headstones of
casualties who, quotes, were intheir care.
But after that episode, it soonbecame, and that's how things
are now, the norm that the AirHistorical Branch or the Army
(37:41):
Historical Branch, NavalHistorical Branch, they would be
the final arbiters.
They would look at any case thatwas presented to them to say,
you know, we've got thisheadstone to this unknown
airman, soldier, sailor,whatever.
And it would be they alone whowould make that decision and
actually, you know, theninstruct the War Graves
(38:04):
Commission to replace theheadstone.
It's a bit of a shame, really,that Well, no, I think that is
the right decision.
But in a way, it's a shame thatwhatever it was that Edwin
Gibson, who was, I think, therecords officer for the War
Graves Commission, you know, heput this in his report.
And I think I think I'm right insaying it's in his book that
this has to be the grave ofManuk.
(38:26):
So if they were operating underthe rules that they were
operating under there at thattime, in other words, pre
Kipling, then, you know, hecould well have ended up with a
headstone with his name on it.
I think anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean...
Just so people listening to thisare clear, Mick is commemorated,
he's on the air servicesmemorial at Arras, but I think
that your research and theresearch of those who've put
forward the case of getting thatgrave identified and changed, I
think is also an important partof the continuing remembrance of
(39:01):
the First World War, becausehistory doesn't stand still,
does it?
SPEAKER_01 (39:04):
No, absolutely, and you know, I guess this chat with
you has kind of sparked myinterest again, and I think I'll
get the files out and you knowwe'll have another look at it I
think you know it's not beyondthe realms of possibility that
someone will look at it and sayyeah actually the evidence is
pretty overwhelming who knowsand but as you say he is
(39:28):
commemorated as indeed anyonewho is missing is commemorated
somewhere by the War GravesCommission and his name is on
the Flying Services Memorial atArras but yeah you know it would
be it would be nice to see hisname on that headstone.
Because, you know, personally,I'm convinced it has to be him.
(39:49):
And it's, you know, I knowthere's a danger of when you get
so involved in this, you know,of wanting it to be that person.
But, you know, I've stood backand looked at it and I've looked
at all the evidence and I'mthinking, well, you know, it's
got to be him.
Because, you know, there are somany elements to this story
where...
(40:09):
that don't make sense in termsof where they thought they'd
exhumed this body from, orrather where they thought the
Germans had buried him.
You know, when you start to, youknow, add up all the dots, as it
were, and you get a picture,which is, I think, pretty
convincing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:26):
Well, if it's not Mick, who is it?
I mean, that's, I guess, is oneof the big questions involved in
that.
And I certainly hope that you dokind of return to your research
and put this forward again,because...
Well,
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
I think so.
But I mean, I think it's alsojust to say, you know, I mean,
this research, if you like,isn't uniquely mine.
I came into it after otherpeople had looked at it and come
to the same conclusion, butthey'd come to the same
conclusion without the weight ofevidence that I then uncovered
through the Wargraves e-files,if you like, which just, you
(41:05):
know, made the case stronger.
I
SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
mean, that's the bit I think most people haven't
seen.
I remember Tony Spagnoliactually in the kind of 90s was
working on the idea of a bookabout Manak and he wanted to try
and prove this as well.
And he went all over the countryand visited places where Manak
had been.
He went to a house actually, Ithink at Hendon, where Manak had
been for a short while and heasked to see Manak's room.
(41:26):
He knocked on this door of thisfamily house house and they
showed him inside and he said Iwant to see the the room at the
front on the left they took himup there when he opened the door
the walls were covered inwallpaper that showed the the
sky and the clouds and hangingfrom the ceiling were model
aircraft and uh and he kind oflooked at surprised at this and
(41:48):
then the mother said to him yesever since we've moved here you
know our son has been absolutelyobsessed with aircraft and this
was the son's room so yeah yeahthe ghost of Mick was kind of
still hanging around in
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
there.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
A fascinating story.
But there is a danger, though,you know, when you do get close
to a subject, and I know thatyou'll bear this out, you need
somebody to look at itobjectively from outside to say,
look, here's the evidence, youknow, because...
I wouldn't deny that, yes, Ikind of do want it to be manic,
(42:23):
but I only want it to be manicif it is him.
Do you know what I mean?
I just need somebody toobjectively and forensically go
through it all and just tell methat I'm not completely crazy
and that, yeah.
it's him.
SPEAKER_00 (42:39):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's because thestories of these men and women
who were in these two greatconflicts of the 20th century
that, you know, we've spent ourlifetimes kind of researching
are so powerful that we get sokind of connected to them.
And like you say, you want it tobe that person.
And I think that's why it's goodthat there is a check, which is
the way the War GravesCommission and the MOD war
(43:01):
detectives and all the othersare involved in this now kind of
operate because it means thatsomeone can take a step back
and, and look at it out.
outside of our eyes, as it were.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
That's exactly the case.
And, you know, really, itperhaps would have been, you
know, I say that he could haveperhaps had a name stone had
things been taken forward byEdwin Gibson.
But on the other hand, you know,would we then have been in a
situation you know, like theKipling case where, you know,
somebody then afterwards, youknow, said, well, hang on a
(43:32):
minute, you know, could it, soit does need an objective
assessment by somebody who, youknow, doesn't have a particular
angle, if you like.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
And just kind of coming back to a kind of aspect
of Mick's life, he comes fromthis humble background.
He's not a traditional kind ofcandidate for entry into the
Royal Flying Corps.
Despite all these problems, heflies, he becomes an incredible
ace.
and then gets shot down andthere's this total mystery about
what actually happened to him.
But there's also the element ofhe's awarded the Victoria Cross
(44:05):
and how long that took to beawarded.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, that is possibly one ofthe more unusual elements of the
story, the fact that it wasposthumous and so long after the
event.
Yeah.
And
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
do you think there were people in the Air Force?
Because, I mean, the Air Forcewas now emerging from a
victorious war, which had playeda major part and had gone from
being bits of the Army, bits ofthe Navy, into becoming an Air
Force.
And it proved its worth, andwarfare had changed forever as a
consequence of it.
Do you think that there wereperhaps people within the Air
(44:43):
Force at that time that thoughtthe recognition of a man like
Manet, working class, I mean,I've read that he was a
socialist even.
I mean, you know, did he fitinto their idea of what a new
Air Force could be?
Do you think that was an elementin it?
No,
SPEAKER_01 (44:57):
it could have been.
Although I don't know, I'd be abit sceptical about that because
I mean, really, you know, theAir Force and the officer elite,
if you want to call it that, youknow, continued, you know, well
on into the, at least theopening era, the opening sort of
period of the Second World War,really.
So I don't know really that thatwould have played into it.
(45:21):
You could be right.
It's an interesting possibility.
But, you know, you mentionedthat, yes, he was a socialist.
And so, again, you know, there'sanother reason why he wouldn't
have particularly fitted in inthe mess.
And there's a lot of speculationabout, you know, had he
survived, would he have been anIrish nationalist?
You know, who knows?
(45:42):
I don't know.
I think putting those sort ofinterpretations on people.
what may have been, is a bit ofa dangerous path to go down,
really.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Yeah, I mean, that kind of history, you could
endlessly speculate aboutthings.
But in terms of his legacy, Imean, you being a Second World
War aviation historian, What isthe legacy of pilots like
Mannock to that generation thatwent on to fly in the Second
World War?
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Oh, it was huge.
You know, there are so manyBattle of Britain pilots who,
you know, I was fortunate enoughto know, you know, I knew
dozens, scores and scores ofthem, just as you did, you know,
with First World War veteransback in the day.
But And also a lot of thebiographies and autobiographies
(46:31):
of Second Marlborough pilotsmake reference to people like
Mannock, McCudden, Albert Ball.
These were all people that, youknow, they grew up as teenagers,
you know, young boys, idolisingthese people.
And they were, you know, so...
they had a huge, huge impact onthe generation that came along
(46:54):
after them.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
And Manick and McCudden and Albert Ball and
Billy Bishop and so many otherskind of created this culture of
knights of the air, of aces,that went on, I guess, to be
repeated again in the finesthour in 1940 with this idea of
defending Britain from theskies.
SPEAKER_01 (47:12):
You're right, it did.
I mean, for want of a betterword, the cult of the fighter
ace was born in the First WorldWar and it's never gone away.
And, you know, it was peoplelike Mannock who created that.
SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Well, I mean, I think this is a fascinating
subject, Andy, and I really dohope that you kind of return to
your research and maybe see whatcan be done.
If nothing else, I think itbrings Mick's name and his story
and everything that he did andall of those pilots of the Great
War kind of back into publicfocus.
SPEAKER_01 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, I...
I think so.
I hope so.
And, you know, I know that theMannock family, I haven't had
contact with them for a longwhile now, but the Burden
family, you know, were delightedat the interest that was
suddenly shown in him.
And, you know, in fact, I tookPeter out and he laid a wreath
(48:09):
on the grave of who, you know,that might be his great uncle.
So, yeah, it's...
It's important that they'reremembered.
SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
And all part of the ever-turning pages of history.
SPEAKER_01 (48:24):
Absolutely so,
SPEAKER_00 (48:24):
yeah.
Thanks, Andy.
That's a great chat aboutMcMannock, and I really
appreciate you taking the timeto join us for this special run
of programmes that we're doingon The War in the Air.
SPEAKER_01 (48:35):
It's been an absolute pleasure, Paul.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
Thanks, Andy.
Speak soon.
www.oldfrontline.co.ukpatreon.com slash old front line
(49:13):
or support us on buy me a coffeeat buymeacoffee.com slash old
front line links to all of theseare on our website thanks for
listening and we'll see youagain soon
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