S3E11: Clu Clu Land, Mario's Picross and Super Picross -or- Steganographic Imagery Viewer Discretion Advised

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I don't know where my Genesis could be.
I haven't seen my Super Nintendosince 2003.
That's all right. I don't mind.
I've got a switch in the old switch room.

(00:22):
My friend Mike and Jamo too. All right everyone, welcome back
to the old Switcheroo where we're again talking gaming retro
with Mike and Jamo. I'm Mike.
And I'm Jamo play along on our epic quest to research and
review all 250 plus games in theNintendo Classics catalog.

(00:42):
Today we are striving to see thebigger picture as we dive deep
into Clue Clue Land for the NES and Mario's Pick Cross for the
Game Boy and Super NES in an episode we are calling
Steganographic Imagery. Viewer discretion advised Mike.
I learned a new word for today'stitle, Steganography.

(01:02):
Are you familiar with it? It's when you draw a
Stegosaurus, right? Yeah, you could.
You could with little boxes, Yeah, kind of.
It's the art of hiding an image or message within an object.
And I think it's easy, easy to see the connection with today's
titles. But Speaking of connection, I'd
like you to please welcome our new friend by way of the
underrated movie podcast. It's Andrew from the nothing new

(01:24):
Remake podcast. Andrew, why don't you reveal
yourself to our listeners? Hello, I'll reveal myself all at
once and not one line at a time or one dot at a time.
I mean, in a way you are revealing yourself one line at a
time 'cause you're just. That's true transcript joke.
Wow, we're crossing over from from imagery to words and back

(01:47):
to imagery. We're multimedia.
Speaking of multimedia, though, nothing new.
Tell us about it, because I'm a fan.
Thank you. Nothing new.
A remake podcast is something that myself and Justin Keys on
my Co host we we do every month an episode talking about film
remakes. There's a lot of them.

(02:08):
They're definitely never going to stop.
They've been going on since the beginning of Hollywood.
So we're we're happy to talk about an original film and its
remake forever. It's truly there's there's a lot
of them out there. You know, Disney keeps doing
live action remakes of their animated films.

(02:29):
There's an unending amount of remakes and I think they're
they're really fascinating the the good and the bad.
So it's that's what we do. I love it academically because
like, well, first of all, I think as a concept it's great
because a remake, everyone has ahot take, which is either that
the new one is actually better or it's trash.
Right? Yeah.

(02:50):
But like, when you you went through one of your episodes,
you kind of took us all the way back to the beginning of film.
And it's like remakes have always been around.
It's not this weird trend. It's it's a timeless thing and
but so is there Is this a lame question to ask?
I don't know why I should ask this Mike, but like I'm curious
what each of our favorite remakes are.

(03:10):
Oh. I think there's objectively a
right answer, right? It's John Carpenter's The thing
is the best remake of all time. Wow, come on.
That's that's a pretty good one.I'm right.
I'm a really big fan of the Greta Gerwig Little Women.
And when we did our episode, we compared it to the, the 90s

(03:31):
version. And I, I just think, you know,
Greta Gerwig found the new way to tell that story that has
'cause there's a version from the 40s, there's a version from
the 30s. They, they did ATV show.
There's a Hallmark show, there'sa Hallmark Christmas movie about
it. You know, it's like those, that
little women's story has been told so many times.
And and somehow that Greta Gerwig version, I was like, Oh,

(03:55):
you, you cracked it in in a new way.
It's and, and got a great cast to do it.
And and I that that really excited me to see that.
I didn't know that was a thing. I am absolutely Googling that as
soon as we're done here. I didn't know she did live with
it. Mike, do you have a favorite
remake? The first one that I can think
of I think falls more into RE adaptation would be Muppet

(04:19):
Christmas Carol, although Airplane as basically a comedy
remake of 0 Hour is also very tempting.
Oh, right, it's like a parody ofthat.
Yeah, and it's very weird because some of it is so direct
that like the setup is already in the original movie.
So like you watch the original movie and your brain starts
completing jokes because the setups there but not the

(04:43):
punchline because they just added the punchline.
Oh, it's in the vein of superhero movie.
I don't know if you guys ever saw that, but it's kind of a
shot for shot parody of the first Spider Man film, you know,
and it's like beat for beat. So you're right.
I didn't, I didn't realize that I got to see this not funny.
Airplane. I guess it's not the spin off
though. Airplane is the spin off.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it it it'sfunny in its own way.

(05:05):
Like, yeah, there, there's a reason they picked it.
Awesome. Well, definitely going to check
that out. But for right now, guys, I think
these hidden treasures aren't going to expose themselves.
Are you ready to peek behind thecurtain?
Yeah. Yep.
OK, so let's start off with Klu Klu Land on the NES, released in
1985. As described on Nintendo

(05:31):
Classics, the greedy sea urchinshave stolen all of Klu Klu
Land's gold bars and buried themin a series of mazes as Bubbles,
a brave bubble fish. You'll set out to uncover all of
the gold bars in each maze, but you have to be careful.
Sea urchins will pursue Bubbles relentlessly, and there are also
dangerous black holes that must be avoided.
Bubbles isn't defenseless, though, as she has the ability

(05:52):
to stun sea urchins with sound waves and quickly change
direction using posts scattered throughout the stages.
Not only that, but the locationsof the gold bars in each maze
form the outline of another object, so once you know the
object, you're well on your way to find him the gold.
With 21 stages to complete and increasingly complex conditions
like having to pass over the gold bars twice to uncover them,

(06:14):
you might just want to bring along a friend for a help.
Oh my gosh, what's long? Is is this like the most overly
complicated explanation of what happens in this game?
Yeah, although it leaves us someinteresting things, like I think
this may be our first game with the female protagonist that
we've. Covered.
I was. OK, I was going to go into that

(06:35):
with the trivia, but Bubbles is low key a leading pioneer in
female characters in video gamesbecause like, even Miss Pac-Man
predates us by two years, but Miss Pac-Man is Pac-Man with a
bow. So I think there might be an
academic argument the Bubbles from Klu Klu Land might be the
first like fully original femaleprotagonist of a video game.

(06:55):
I also find it just odd that like bubbles, the bubble fish
feels so lazy. Close enough, but when I read
this description like and I ran out of breath reading it, I
remembered that fantasy star four I think has a 2 sentence
thing. It's like young man bands with
his friends to fight a great evil 48 hour game clock in the

(07:18):
land. It's too much.
Well, since the box art was off in people's first impressions,
let's take a look at Klu Klu Land's box art for the NES.
For those who've never seen it before, the North American box
art of Klu Klu Land is more or less a screenshot of the game,
which, as Abe Simpson would say,was the style at the time.
Bubbles is zipping up to the topof the box, blasting out a sound

(07:39):
wave attack at an unseen enemy while reaching out to grab a
turn post. Andrew, you picked this game?
Did you have the box as a kid? No, I this is I I need to reveal
my first interaction with cuckooland was through Animal
Crossing. Oh nice.

(07:59):
On the original Animal Crossing they had it where you could
acquire NES games to play in your house.
And so I loved collecting those and and finding all of them and
getting them all together. And Cuckoo Land was fascinating.
I I've never seen a game like this.
And the box. It's very funny because the box

(08:20):
art is exactly what is in the game, but it really doesn't
prepare you for the gameplay itself.
No, not, not in the slightest. Like Mike.
I mean, look at the turnpost, Mike.
What do those look like to you? Because they don't look like
turnposts. Because they're viewed perfectly
from above. Eggs.
I was thinking like a burger time kind of thing because those

(08:41):
look like fried eggs and the gold bars look like blades or
whatever. But I love that you encountered
this through Animal Crossing my my $1,000,000 idea.
OK Nintendo, you listening? OK.
I don't think we ever got this in an episode yet.
Mike, did you? You played Animal Crossing on
the Switch, Andrew? Yeah, yeah.
OK. And and did you play it quite a
bit like most of us did? Yeah.
So when the next one comes out, we're all going to be a little

(09:03):
sad to have lost the islands we worked so long on, right.
So my billion dollar idea is that in Animal Crossing for the
switch too, you should be able to buy a switch and play your
old island game within a game style and all it's really all
it's really doing is just it's just booting up the other game
really quickly. But then now this thing you
worked hard on is like a decoration in your house, you

(09:26):
know, I don't know, I think it'spretty cool.
I. Mean at that point just have it
be a launcher and you can play anything within it.
Well, yeah, I mean, Nintendo classics should be playable from
within Animal Crossing. It it is funny to think that in
Animal Crossing they were just giving us these games and now
it's like, OK, now pay us a monthly fee to even get access
to them. But it's interesting though,

(09:46):
because like the price of Nintendo Switch online, is it
crazy low compared to other gaming Xbox Game pass style
services. You know, it's it's still, I
think 20 or 30 bucks for a wholeyear and that's like my monthly
fee for Xbox. But you're right, though, it is
kind of funny, like how we're viewing and valuing these old
games. I, I, I think that's

(10:07):
interesting. Can we all agree the Japanese
box is better? Like I love this box.
Oh yeah. Andrew, what's better about it?
Oh my God. Well, first of all, it's like a
you, you understand what you're looking at.
But I, I love the, I love the old box art that is like a
dramatically different art stylefrom anything in the game.

(10:30):
So it's like, I just love this. This is what we're supposed to
be seeing. But because of pixelated
graphics, what we actually see is what we're seeing.
But it's like this is what it's supposed to be.
It's a cartoony Saturday morningcomic kind of cereal box mascot
sort of drawing, and Bubbles is fleeing from a pair of sea
urchins towards the customer. But more importantly, now you

(10:52):
can tell she's whipping around the turnpost.
She's grabbing this turnpost as she runs, and the momentum is
carrying her in a circle towardsthe gold bars.
It's like it's actually a reallyclever way to communicate kind
of what this game is going to play like, or is supposed to
feel like anyway. I find it fascinating that this
feels even less clear that thoseare sea urchins and she's a
fish. I don't think you could show

(11:16):
this to anybody alive and ask them what are these meant to be
and figure out that a she's a fish because there's nothing
fish like. And then obviously like hands
and feet are not generally associated with fish, and the
sea urchins feel more like a amoeba or something.

(11:36):
Yeah, yeah, definitely don't read as like, Spiky.
Yeah, there's no there, there really not spikiness there.
I I wonder if the fish was a later idea.
They just had this kind of concept and they're like, well,
why, why is this happening? Yeah, she's a fish, right,
'cause I could kind of looks, I mean the amoeba thing, it's

(11:57):
like, and then she's red like and like a red blood cell like
is this, did this start? Is like a it's inside your body,
like protecting you. But now it they were like, oh,
that's too weird. Let's just make her a fish.
Yeah, I'd never. I just, I mean, I think that the
fishness of the main character bubbles kind of serves the

(12:17):
gameplay because you can't go backwards, right?
Just how fish can't swim backwards.
So you have to be constantly going in a direction.
'Cause if she stops, she'll die.Yeah, we saw that in two player
mode. We'll get to it later, but when
you get stuck in clue, clue and don't go great.
So this was developed and published by Nintendo.
It was directed by Kenji Miki, whose work we have seen many

(12:40):
times on this podcast, includingbaseball, Warios, Woods, Mario
Party, Pokémon Snap, Mario Kart Super Circuit and our game from
last episode, Mike Blast core. Like this guy is Mr. Nintendo
Switch on like, excuse me, Nintendo classics.
Sorry, I've got some knowledge of Nintendo Power trivia for you
guys. Klu Klu Land was released as
Kuru Kuru Land in Japan. Kuru Kuru is considered an

(13:04):
onomatopoeia in Japanese, commonly used as an adverb to
describe something moving in circles.
And I'm not sure why localizers thought that Klu Klu was better
because to me it almost This is real stupid.
OK, but when I hear Klu Klu, I think it's going to be like a
mystery game because the only context I have for the word clue
is a a hint or Tim Curry. Maybe that's what they wanted.

(13:26):
So I don't. Know, I mean, it is a mystery.
You're revealing the puzzle. OK, right.
Yeah. I was wondering, I was like how
intentional was this? I'm just going to put this out
there. If they really want to come up
with a theme that would work, keep the same name.
I'm going to read on a updated version of this game.
I think you can turn this into light cycles and turn this into
a Tron thing because then you have clue.

(13:48):
From. The neutron.
OK, Wow, Wow. OK.
But the whole. Yeah, yeah, that was better than
expected. That was good, Mike.
I was pretty clever. So a port of Klu Klu Land was
finally the final title releasedfor the Famicon Disk System.
It was a floppy disk Nintendo system that never made it to the

(14:08):
States. And so Klu Klu was the final
game for that system. Klu Klu Land lives on mostly
through cameos. Multiple iterations of the game
have appeared in the Warioware series.
Including. 3D Yeah, reimagining of the title for the Wii title.
Warioware Smooth Moves. You ever play this one, Andrew?
No, I, I didn't play that one. Now I'm like, oh, I gotta go

(14:30):
find a copy. You gotta go check out the 3D
Klu Klu Land. But to be clear though, it's in
a Warioware game so you get to play this for about 5 seconds.
Hey, that's some of the sometimes that's the best thing.
The sea urchin enemies, called Unira, have been throwable
weapons in the Smash Brothers series since 2008, and Bubbles
appears as a playable character in the original Super Mario

(14:53):
Maker as well as in the Clue Clue Land inspired Game Boy
Advance game DK King of Swing. So I thought that was kind of
fun. That that's really weird.
But I'm showing, I'm showing thecharacter select and it's like
the Donkey Kong characters who are much more detailed and kind
of 16 bit and then you kind of have bubbles just over there in
her 8 bit glory. I wonder if people who played

(15:15):
King of Swing even knew who Bubbles was, because if I saw a
character named Bubbles that look like that in a Nintendo
game, I would just say I I don'tknow.
I would either say I don't know who this is or is this from
Bubble Bobble. You know, it's like so weird.
You know what I was thinking, MM, Your mind is my mind, OK?
Not usually. OK, well watch this though.

(15:37):
OK, Will you just give me a second?
Looking at Bubbles, her character design, she's a red
dot with, like, little arms and like, a little face, Right?
And her name's Bubbles. Mike, do you remember there was
a Genesis game about a soda mascot?
It's the 7UP dot, right? Yeah, the cool spot, I would
think this is look OK. Cool spot means a lot to a very

(15:59):
small number of people. So no sunglasses though.
No sunglasses, but maybe this iswhat cool spot looks like
without a sunglasses. We don't know.
I find it funny that there's a bubbles in a mostly primate
centered game and it is not the bubbles the monkey.
Michael Jackson's bubbles. Unless you know another one it.
Don't it? Don't.

(16:21):
And better stats all around the Donkey Kong.
Bubbles is better at bubbles. A fish is better at jumping than
Donkey Kong. Swinging, but yeah.
Bubbles. The bubbles is the OG swinger so
you better have the highest status.
Hey, don't deride the first female video watch.
You know what? Look at me though.
Maybe. Maybe I'm being problematic.

(16:42):
Maybe nothing. You know what?
Don't. Shame her right?
Swing it. I am the problem.
We got to change topics. This is getting weird.
Before we get in the joy pros and joy cons of Clue Clue Land,
What's our history with this game and how far did we each
get? So Andrew, you said you first
played this through Animal Crossing.
Yeah. Did you play it a lot?
Like, did you get hooked on it or was it just kind of this
oddity to you? Yeah, I kind of got hooked on

(17:04):
it. It was in original Animal
Crossing. I feel like.
I mean, obviously I was younger,so I didn't know how to play it
perfectly. I was just kind of doing
whatever. I feel like I would run out of
things to do around the town. And so I was like, well, I still
want to play this game and I just go play the NES games in
the game. So this was definitely one that

(17:26):
I played a lot. I, I because I had very strong
memory of the, the shapes and ofthe, the bouncing, like the
trampoline element. I was like, oh, I remember being
really pissed off at those things.
Rightfully so. Yeah, we'll get into it with the
joy cons. I think we can have a lot of
those. But so Andrew, do you have an

(17:47):
opinion about whether or not you've beaten this game?
Like do you know what would you consider beating Clue Clue land?
I mean, there's a, there's a limited number of shapes, right?
There's got to be, what did theysay, like 21 shapes or
something? There's like 8 shapes that
cycle. There's 20.
OK, and so so being that this was originally at least in

(18:07):
partner arcade game, there's no credit sequence to reach.
There's levels one through 22 are like your first like series
of shapes and whatever. And then 23 to 42 everything
repeats. But this time you can't OK, so I
should I should first say for people who haven't played the
game, the goal is to collect allthe treasure and the treasure

(18:28):
forms a secret image, right? But after level 22, if you pass
over treasure you've already found, you will flip it face
down and have to activate it a second time.
It's. Brutal.
I I think I've made it that far and then died because I didn't,
I didn't understand what was happening and then just died.
It's weird. It's like, it's like this game's
already tough and you're like, why do I suck at this game all

(18:49):
of a sudden? Yeah, So I also made it that
far, but did not get through thehard mode.
So I don't think I beat this. Did you, Andrew?
Yeah, I wouldn't. I guess I wouldn't consider that
I beat it because I I couldn't have gotten past one or two of
those hard mode levels. That just sounds infuriating.
They, they, it's just, it's already hard.

(19:10):
The, the control scheme on this game is like difficult by
design, but it's, it's so different from anything else
that you've controlled. So it's like fun to play, but
it's I, I would not take the time to beat it if I hit that
point and I was like, yeah, I'm over it.
Yeah, and even rewinding kids talking and that still felt
impossible. Mike, how'd you do with it?

(19:31):
And had you ever encountered it before?
So I'd never encountered it before.
I kind of gave this game like two shots and the first shot was
because I'd gone through the manual.
The manual somewhat explains this.
Most notably it also. So there's sort of a structure
of I think like 4 levels and then a bonus level.

(19:56):
And so each of the four levels, there's a different background
color or wall color, I guess really.
And there's a few possible patterns that you could have on
each of those. So based off the color you're
kind of limited down to, it can only be a few shapes.
And the manual actually has thatin there.
So the first time I played this was just, I just got through the

(20:18):
manual and I was getting fed up with this game quickly.
The second time through I actually printed out that page
of the manual so I had it next to me so that I could really
quickly keep an eye on what shape this was supposed to be.
Did that help? It helped.
Somewhat. It still gets fairly frustrating
because you have a fairly short time interval.

(20:41):
That's a very, it's a very largenumber that counts down very,
very fast and that's very unpleasant.
But there's these trampolines and kind of the that's it, I'm
done with this game was the point in which I got stuck
between two trampolines and justhad to watch until the time ran
out and I died, not being able to do anything.
And it, it took a while and thatwas the point where I'm like,

(21:03):
you know what, this, this is enough for me.
So I think I've, I've seen at least all the patterns over
multiple attempts, but it was like, I, I don't need to go
further. This is frustrating.
Is that why you asked on the discord what constant is beating
it? Because like, I've seen every
shape. So did I technically do it?

(21:24):
No, I was asking that actually for a different game that we may
get. We may have to get into that
distinction later. Gotcha.
Well, OK, so we're we're kind ofalready getting into the
negatives, but Andrew, what did you like about this game when
you encountered enamel crossing?Like you said, the movement was
really unique, which I I agree. Like for better or for worse,
I've never really played a game quite like Clue Clue Land where

(21:46):
the main character is constantlymoving and you are just more
steering her than controlling her.
Yeah, it because a lot of those,maybe not a lot, but, but those,
those kinds of NES games, there's like the side scroller,
which is like you just go left to right and beat a thing.
And then there's then there's like this where it's like you

(22:07):
have a screen and there's something that you have to
accomplish and it's just all in one screen.
And even for the ones that are all in one screen, it's usually
just like, OK, jump to the top or get to an exit.
And this one is like you have tomove around.
I mean, this is like Pac-Man on steroids.
This is like you are moving around this entire stage.
You don't know where the, the, the gold bars are, but then once

(22:31):
you start to figure out where the gold bars are, even then
you're like, OK, I need to turn.And then you hit a trampoline
and it's like it, it has its ownchallenge and it plays fast
enough that I, I didn't find myself getting bored of it that
fast and not frustrated enough. And luckily I didn't get stuck
between two trampolines ever. But if I did, maybe I would quit
at that moment. I, I did playing it on, on the

(22:54):
switch with the rewind capability was pretty good until
the rewind is not exact. And so sometimes you have to be
very precise in rewinding and then turning, grabbing the the
right thing to turn and and thenyou just still die anyway.
So I think there's one time where I rewound like 10 times

(23:16):
'cause I just kept missing the turn And I was like, how, how,
how can I do this even without, even with a rewind ability, I
can't get the shape in the time limit.
It's crazy, but it's that's fun.Yeah, yeah, yeah, it, it is very
fun. And I, I also, so I cheat to try
and beat as many of these games as possible, right.
So you say like, oh, I had to rewind like 10 times.

(23:37):
Like that's nothing. I've rewound like 1516 times in
a row to get through like Ninja Gaiden.
But rewinding on this feels likeyou're going insane because.
Yes, yes, But it's not true rewind.
It's like, it's like every second and a half or something.
I've gotten used to it. But Mike, we'll have to do a
filler episode between seasons and talk about Nintendo World

(24:00):
Championships because I bought it and it is essentially
rewinding the game. It's 8 seconds of a retro
challenge, but every time you fail, it rewinds you
automatically. And like that in itself I think
is really fun. But I think it especially made
this game more fun because Mike,my heart went out to you.
I was just like not rewinding this game.
Must be. Brutal.

(24:21):
It's I'm definitely like, I'm disappointed this was not
originally an arcade game because you die as fast as you
would expect in that. But in an arcade game, when a
port of an arcade game, when I would be at game over, it would
let me just like that would justlet me go.
OK, No, it just let me continue,please.
But the fact that every time it's game over, it's all the way

(24:45):
back to the beginning was the part where it's like, yeah, this
is fresh. Which actually like does lead me
to the question because it's sort of like setup of like 5
levels in a loop in a sense is when you get back to like that
base, the base level of patternsagain, which would be like
levels the 6th level you're playing.
Yeah. Is that the same speed as the

(25:06):
first time or is it still speed up?
It's still speed up. And the more times that you
know, like Mike said, you go through a certain number of
shapes and you go through loops and every time you complete a
lap, if you will, the game gets faster and the game adds more
enemies and they make the point bonuses more stringent.
So it's just getting more difficult and more difficult and
more difficult until eventually it changes the rules on you at

(25:28):
the halfway point and says, well, now you can only touch the
gold bar one time. And that's just so much to
manage. I do like bubble Soundwave
attack because like Andrew called it like Pac-Man on
steroids. And I always thought that a
Pac-Man style game with any kindof offensive capability would be
kind of fun. And so for those who haven't
played it, she'll shoot the Soundwave.
And thankfully they're unlimited.

(25:49):
I feel like lesser devs would have put a cap on how many times
you can shoot it, but you can just spam it.
And when it freezes one of your enemies, which are these sea
urchins, you run into them and you don't kill them.
Like you don't eat them like a Pac-Man ghost.
You push them all the way to theside of the level and slam them
against the wall. And like I did that to a guy at
a party once. Tommy, I miss you.

(26:11):
Lovely man, lovely man. But I'm just saying, I have
jokingly slammed one of my friends into the wall before and
it's very satisfying in real life, so it's also funny.
That's cute. That's not weird.
OK, one interesting bit here that I've just noticed because
you you, you talk about the complaint that it changes up the
rules on you. Yes.
And so that at that point you can only go over it once of the

(26:35):
over the gold bars. Yeah.
The description of the game saysthat they add the increasingly
complex condition that you have to pass over the gold bars twice
to uncover them. Yes, I think that's the first
way the rules change. OK, so it does that and then it
does it so that if you pass over, you have to pass over it.

(26:55):
If you pass over it twice it goes away.
I. Think so.
OK. They make it the condition
first. It's like, OK, just pass over
it. Then the condition is you must
go twice. Then if you go twice, you're
punished. Yes.
OK. Yeah, this is, you know, look,
this game, maybe it was made to torture people.
I don't know. I don't know if you guys have

(27:18):
played any Splatoon, but I feel like Splatoon kind of
aesthetically took some notes onthis from the sea urchins and
from bubbles. Like I think they're kind of
cute, like animations, at least between levels.
But I'm kind of grasping for straws because I didn't really
like this game and I'm getting the sense that Mike really
didn't like it either. Andrew is what frustrates you

(27:38):
about it? What's your joy con?
Every time I would start from the top, going from level 1 to
level 2, I felt like the speed increase like double.
Like I know that the speed is increasing as you go along, but
just from the first to the second level, I was like, oh, I
cannot control bubbles at all. Like I'm just, I've completely
lost control of this thing. And you know, I adjusted, but it

(28:01):
was definitely like the first level starts you off kind of
like, OK, I'm getting used to the speed and it just speeds up
so fast, so quick that that makes it so difficult.
But yeah, other, I mean, that's just difficulty.
I I, I, I can't complain about much else.
I guess maybe if, if it had, since it's not an arcade game, I

(28:21):
mean, they could have incorporated some kind of like
better level system to make it clear where you are.
But I, I guess it's, you know, the color changes kind of
communicate that. And then since we're playing it
on the switch, you can just do asave state, you know, and come
back to it. So these are, you know, modern
problems on a classic game, but I, I don't have much to complain

(28:45):
about. I, I think that's, that's partly
why I was, was kind of like, I was like threw it out as a
possibility to cover with you guys because I thought, well,
surely no one wants to talk about clue clue land, but I, I
will. I always treasure these episodes
because it's like, we all know Ocarina of Time is great, right?

(29:06):
But now I have an opinion on Clue Clue land.
You know what I mean. Mike and I tried two player mode
right before we started recording and I was really
wishing it felt significantly more fun.
But one of the mechanics is thatyou know Mike talked about you
get stuck between these two trampolines and you just have to
wait until you die. The only way to get free from 2

(29:28):
perfectly adjacent trampolines is for a second player to knock
you loose. But Mike and I were trying to do
that, and it wasn't working the way you think it would.
Like, if we were in, if we ran into each other perpendicularly,
we wouldn't collide and knock each other away like you think.
We reached out for each other's hands and we did not grasp them
like I was hoping we would. It was just like, Mike, how did

(29:49):
we did you figure out how you got out?
You got out. But then I got stuck.
So it was like. Yeah, I'm not fully sure how it
handled that collision. Like it was coming in from the
side, like passing through the trampoline almost, I think.
Right. So yeah, not sure how that was
supposed to work. And I'm not sure if there's a
way that you can do that where it's like, and now both people

(30:11):
are free and not just that you change who's like it was, it was
like a prisoner exchange it. Kind of was, yeah, it was.
It was dark. But like, you know, as much as
it would suck the entire identity out of the game, I
think there are moments when youas a player wishes it controlled
like Pac-Man. And I could just turn without

(30:32):
the signposts because it it's really hectic to be spinning in
circles, trying to get the timing right to shoot out the
right direction. I just, I feel like it was
stressful, but not fun stressful.
I feel like it just felt stressful.
So I I don't think I'm a clue. Clue defender Andrew, I'm sorry.

(30:56):
Yeah, I know, I'm in the minority.
You know what though? Leave a comment if you also are
down for Bubs and Klu Klu and all that stuff.
Was there anything else you wanted to say in defense or
criticism of the game before youmove on to our last two titles?
Oh, you know, another a mechanicof this game that I I think is
really cool is once you've revealed the gold bar, the

(31:20):
urchins cannot cross it. So it makes it yeah, that once
you reveal so they will stay on the side, they cannot cross a
gold bar. So it it's kind of you didn't
realize that. No.
Yeah, this game is like kind of more complicated than it needs
to be. And as you play it like you, you
feels like you're discovering things.

(31:41):
Like I didn't know, like I didn't read the descriptions.
I didn't know those were considered black holes, but I
also didn't know Bubbles was a agirl.
Fish. So it's like, hey, you know,
like a black hole in the sea. I don't know, maybe there should
just be a Whirlpool. But I but yeah, these little
like gameplay mechanics were like the urchins won't cross the
gold bars. I didn't know they were gold
bars 'cause they look like diamonds to me.

(32:05):
Truly. Like this is this game raises
more questions than it answers, but it's definitely I to me that
makes it like so much more interesting than than a lot of
these types of games. Like, I feel like I've played
Pac-Man because it's at arcades.Yeah, I'm, I'm not running to
play Pac-Man. But if I saw Klu Klu landed in

(32:26):
arcade, I'd be like, let me get on this.
Let me see what's going on here.Like, what's up, Bubbles?
It's been a minute. Yeah.
The control, definitely. I think actually the way this
controls gives it more novelty than I think it otherwise would
have. Could just 'cause I think the
way it speeds up and that the trampolines exist would have

(32:47):
been frustrating in a familiar way.
Whereas this idea that like yourturns are grab on to a post and
just keep going around until you're ready to release in the
direction. Definitely add something.
And like it is interesting when you get to the point where you
start to realize that you have to go over those black holes

(33:09):
because you have to get the goldbars that are directly next to
it. And the only way to do that is
to actually crossover it. And if you go straight across,
you die. So you have to swing over it
basically. You have to just grab on and
circle for two times. But there is something to be
said for that though, like even just talking about Mike, it's

(33:29):
kind of feels like gymnastics and it's dangerous and you're
kind of out of control in like an acrobatic kind of sense.
So like, I really see what they were kind of going for.
I just, I don't know if they stuck the landing, to use
another acrobatic phrase. But you're right though, and,
and I'm tempted to go back and give it one last try, knowing
now that the sea urchins won't crossover the collected gold

(33:51):
bars, because now thinking of those as like a container for
the enemies totally frees up my mind to focus more on the turn
posts. If I go, OK, that guy's wedged
in the corner by all the cold bars I collected.
He can't make a straight line attack at me.
Thank you. You know, Andrew, good thing
you're here buddy. Like no one else is going to
help us through Clue. Clue land, Yeah.

(34:14):
I can also definitely see a situation where is like, if this
was a game that I was just kind of playing off and on for weeks,
I would also probably get along.One of the other problems that
was just frustrating is as things get frantic, the brain
goes to like, oh, if I want to go left, I need to hit left kind
of stuff. And you hit a certain point
where it's like, no, I have to think about how I have to grab
Onga stuff. And so there's a whole lot of

(34:35):
plowing straight into black holes because I was not hitting
directions the right way. Yeah.
They should release a a version of this that's first person.
Oh, that'd be really dizzying and vomit inducing.
But I was thinking though, like the one last thing I'll say kind
of in defense of the game, is that in some ways Klu Klu Land
feels ahead of its time because auto runners and these like auto

(34:57):
moving platforming games are very big on mobile where it's
like you don't control when you stop or start, you control, you
steer your character, you don't control your character.
So I almost wonder if this wouldwork well as like a touch screen
game. I'd like it to just be let me
use the the L&R triggers to control the left and right arms.
Interesting. Right, because that would be

(35:18):
better. Because it's not like based on
direction, because. Yeah, yeah, look at you, Mike.
Well, no, I was going to say youcould remap the controls, but
that's only Nintendo 64 games. Nintendo classics.
Come on, We're we're trying our best here.
Are you? Are you?
Meet us halfway. Meet us halfway.
I mean, hey, I, I can rewind on my Nintendo 64 games now.

(35:39):
That's a game changer. It's a big quality of life
improvement for your boy. OK, With that said, why don't we
move on to our last two titles? We're going to kind of cover
them at the same time because they're very similar.
And that is Mario's Pit Cross and Mario's Super Pit Cross on
the Gameboy and Super Nintendo, released in 1995.

(36:04):
Using ChatGPT, I've combined thedescriptions from Nintendo
classics, so the game wants you to use logic to chisel away
squares and reveal hidden pictures.
Decipher numeric clues along rows and columns to uncover 250
brain bending puzzles across varying levels of difficulty.
Work quickly and carefully. Each mistake costs precious time

(36:28):
in Mario Super Picross. Take on even tougher challenges
in Wario's puzzle mode or team up with a friend using a second
controller. 2 chisels are betterthan one.
So taking a look at the box art boys often people's first
impressions. Andrew, you said you love pit
cross, so did you play pit crossor is this another discovery to
Animal Crossing? No, this is I.

(36:49):
I believe my first pit cross wasthe one on the DS.
Yes. And then I went through yeah,
pit cross DS and I think I had the the three D1 and did did
they put out another one? I, I don't they, I, I was
playing a bunch of pick Ross on on DS and then when I discovered

(37:11):
Mario's pick Ross like it was like the original, like I, I
just had to play it. So I actually had this on Game
Boy. I got the cartridge and, and
played it on the original Game Boy.
That's. Sick.
Yeah, that was fun. Did.
You have the OG box. No, this was, I got it used
somewhere, but yeah, it's a goodbox.

(37:32):
Yeah, it's, I mean, I don't know, Mike, what do you think?
I don't think the especially theGame Boy box of just kind of
Mario's face in a few squares scattered around that don't
really go into any part of the image does not really scream
what this game is to me, right. I think the Mario's Super pick

(37:54):
cross, is that where that's supposed to be?
I want to call it Super Mario's Pick Cross, but that's.
Not everybody does. It's not right, No.
This is the whole Sonic the Hedgehog spinball situation.
Yeah, I think I like that one more because by putting the
numbers down at the bottom in the way that fills in squares to
form the shape. If I was just shown these
without titles or anything, I would know what the Japanese one

(38:17):
was supposed to be, and I would not for the S and ES1.
But I would not click what the Gameboy 1 is supposed to be
because it it just makes Mario seem like this ominous
overlooking thing. Yeah, yeah.
And I don't know if it's just me, but like, when I look at a
picture, do you guys look at a picture top to bottom?
You do, right? Like your eyes start at the top

(38:38):
and work your way down like it was a comic.
I think I'd go middle, Middle you, yeah.
All right, Mike, settle this once and for all.
I don't know. Twirling.
Always twirling. OK, well, because so Mike
mentioned, both of the game boxes are meant to show you that
Mario's face is sort of obscuredin some manner, and then pixels

(39:02):
will lead you to see him, right?But because the Super Nintendo
1, like, Mario's at the top of the image and the numbers are at
the bottom. And I know you're supposed to be
like forming him, but I almost feel like it's like Thanos
snapped and Mario's like dissolving.
That's just where my brain goes,because to me it's Mario's
disappearing, which is really unnerving to me.
Well, I, I think my problem withthe Mario Super pic Ross is that

(39:28):
it isn't really, it doesn't really indicate what the game
actually looks like except for the numbers.
And then I think numbers look, if someone, if I see a math
problem on a game box, I'm goingto say that's a game for nerds
and I'm not going to play it. Sorry.
But if you if you put on your game box logic unlocks,
challenging picture picture puzzles, I'm going to go, well,

(39:51):
tell me more. What what is that all about?
And Mario looks like a like a, a, an evil God being staring at
me from beyond the abyss. Yeah.
What's going on there? Yeah, I think as as a nerd that
plays games for nerds, the numbers to me also is just
that's a whole genre of games that I play a ton of.

(40:13):
So to me, it's an immediate I know exactly what this is, and I
can definitely see where if someone's not familiar with
these kinds of puzzles, I can see someone not getting what
that is. Yeah, but that's red meat to
you, though. You're like, talk to me in
numbers. I'm, I'm definitely more in
Andrews. But you know, especially as a
kid, like, you know, math wasn'tmy subject.

(40:33):
I'm decent at it, you know, But it was just like, it's not what
I'm here for in terms of video games, at least when I was
younger. Yeah, and and these much like
Sudoku are one of those things where you kind of have to
explain to you like, no, you don't actually have to do math
it like it's it's a logic thing.The numbers are part of this,
but it's not like derivatives orsomething.
It's basically just addition or subtraction, like as far as

(40:57):
filling in boxes. Pretty much, yeah.
It's like, can you count? That's the amount of math
needed. What's funny is I got into Pic
Ross and I was already into Sudoku a little bit.
And then I did start playing some of those other more obscure
ones like I think it's called like Kakuro Kakuro, something
like that. It's that one is a math game for

(41:18):
sure. It's like Sudoku but with
picross elements. So it's it's like you're adding
up the numbers to equal a numberin the column or row.
And so there's little like through playing that, it's like
you learn the little tricks of like, OK, like what are these
three numbers always equal? And so you're always like going

(41:41):
through and and trying to get the numbers in the right places.
Pick Ross is like simpler than that.
So that's and it gives you a little picture.
So I always found that one more fun anyway.
Yeah, 100. Percent.
I will say I was surprised to discover it cuz the manual
explained how to pronounce this cuz I did not realize that this
is specifically a trade name. Yeah, yeah.

(42:03):
And not a general term for this kind of puzzle.
The general term is Nagavanavan.Nanogram.
Nanogram. Thank you.
That's what I said. I didn't get every single
syllable, but I said it. OK.
But partially because I've just come across these as there's
other games that I think are trying to get that are getting

(42:25):
away with using that. And I'm going to say it during
this this way. I'm sure up until this I had
always pronounced those as Pycross.
Interesting Π like the mathematical term Pi like.
Yeah. Or actually this is probably
the. I can probably blame the fact
that Python, the programming language, people have written a

(42:46):
lot of things that use it. And it'll be start off with π
something. So it'll be π something.
I always just assumed it's because it's like it's vaguely
like cross stitch, but it's alsolike you're looking where
numbers crossover to like form it and then pick like picture.
Yeah, yeah, no, when I saw that,how it's like, Oh yeah, I guess
that makes sense of how you're supposed to say it.
It's just not how I did as one of those words where it's like I

(43:10):
only ever saw this written so. I was like risk Star, like
Rystar. We I discovered that.
Is it Rystar? It's Risk Star.
Oh, it's Risk Star. OK.
I always said it Risk Star, so Iwas.
I think most people say Rystar, but it's Risk Star.
Yeah, I found the like the OG like developer interviews and I
was like, hear that they're saying Risk Star.
But people come up with things, always know how to say those

(43:33):
things correctly. That's true.
I point to George Lucas. Does he say wrong?
I think he says Han instead of Han, which is what it is like in
the movies. Except Lando calls him Han.
He's the only one. OK, back on topic, Mike.
Come on. Pick Cross here.
We. Go, he says.
Gungan's funny, he says. Like Gungan, he says it

(43:56):
different. Yeah, he says.
It's funny because he says Gungan's were a good idea.
Hey, listen, listen. Kind of like Gungans kind of
like them. They're cool aesthetic.
They're kind of fun. Like like, OK, someone's a
prequel defender. Just saying, Mike, those movies

(44:17):
have a lot of problems, but Gungans are not the top of the
list. A specific Gungan might be, but
as a race I think you got to cool it a little bit.
It's going to clip the as a race.
I think you got to cool it a little bit and take that out of
context. Great.
Yeah. Anyway, I got some trivia before
I'm cancelled off the air here. This game was developed and

(44:39):
published by Jupiter Corporation.
They're a studio we have never encountered before on this show,
but I'm confident we will see them one day.
Mike. They are responsible for two
Strauss family favorites, which was Pokémon Pinball on the
Gameboy Color and The World EndsWith You on the DS.
Jonathan loves the Pokémon pinball ball game, and then
Justin loved World Ends With You, and I never really played
either one of them. So it's just interesting that

(45:01):
this studio speaks to every Strauss except for me.
So although wildly popular in Japan number puzzles, I've
traditionally struggled to sell units in America, especially in
the video game space. So in an attempt to, let's say,
compensate for the Western resistance to the concept,
Nintendo had an aggressive marketing campaign for the
Gameboy release. It had unsettling ads depicting

(45:24):
a young teen whose brain grows so large playing this game that
a supermodel comes up from behind, fondles his lobe and
giggles. Oh, it's gotten so big.
Listen. Listen, Andrew, this is this is
crazy. But I'm not being a creep.

(45:44):
I'm being a video game historian.
Nintendo was being creepy, Mike.I mean, right, Mike, we're going
to cut this out too. I don't know what we're going to
do. Yeah, I think it was the
marketing companies who were like backed into a corner, they
said. They said this is the only thing
we can do. You got to trust us.
Nintendo should not have trustedthem.

(46:06):
But I also, I, I remember video game magazines and there were
some crazy ads in those things. So this, yeah, this doesn't
really surprise me, to be honest.
Some of them were like borderline pornographic and then
like, and I and I think like they were like, well, this is
being advertised primarily to like teen boys.

(46:28):
So what are we going to do to get their attention?
I don't know. It's just, it's just wild that,
you know, 90s Nintendo marketingversus today's Nintendo
marketing. It's night and day.
So in an unexpected discovery, while playing through the Super
Nintendo sequel for this episode, I discovered that Super

(46:49):
Pic Cross is actually rated Teen.
Not, you know, all ages. It's rated for teen.
Do you guys have any idea why that might be?
Is it alcohol or smoking? Those are my that's my go to.
And I think guns was. All smart gun.
Yes. Oh yeah, yeah, the mafia, I
think. I think it's I think it's I

(47:11):
can't read Kanji, but I think it's gangster is what it says.
And it's like a guy with a Tommygun.
And then there's like little animation.
So pick cross similar to Klu KluLand and that you're trying to
reveal a hidden image. But it's mafia.
Oh, is it? OK, there you go.
So anyway, you are revealed, youknow after solving a puzzle,
what the image is supposed to belooking like.

(47:32):
And in the Super Nintendo version, it comes with little
animations of people smoking andshooting and probably drinking
alcohol somewhere in there. And they like, they color in the
outline. Yeah.
I always thought that was so funthat it was like, here's what
it's supposed to be. Yeah, one point I should
mention, because I don't think we've actually explicitly
brought this up, is, yeah, well,the Game Boy game is in English.

(47:55):
The SES one super pic, Ross, I told you I was gonna do it.
You could do it Mario Super Picross.
That one is in mostly Japanese. Almost entirely.
Which makes the fact that phonesnow can just like, translate
junk on the fly super helpful. Or were you pointing your phone

(48:15):
at the screen? Yeah, that's clever.
Yeah, so like when you brought up the one that is Mafia, like
that was one of several. There's somewhere like, OK, I
don't care what that is or it's clearly something, but there was
a lot where like I don't know what that is or I want to know
what they've actually said that is.
And I would use my phone and getit to translate it.

(48:36):
And occasionally it would translate it into like, I forget
the name for when Japanese is written using like the Latin
alphabet. But sometimes we would do that
and it wouldn't translate to an A recognizable word.
It would translate to a Japaneseword.
But now it's the thing that I can type into Google Translate
and go like, OK, well what's that word actually mean in
English now that I at least haveit transcribed somehow?

(49:00):
Yeah, I like that you're like translating the game and pulling
up other screens and like you'reyour own man in the chair while
playing this Japanese Pink Crossgame.
Are you guys aware of the fact that when this was re released
for the 3DS eShop and the SwitchNintendo classics they had to
reprogram some of the puzzles and completely change the image

(49:22):
but not for like an adult ratingissue?
Wait for for wait for which? Super Nintendo.
No. So they had to replace several
puzzles on Puzzle 5L, which is 1of Wario's puzzles.
In the Super Nintendo version. It was originally amongst the
Scream and they changed it to a chameleon.
Tetris was one of the solutions which I thought was really fun,

(49:44):
and that had to be changed to Hermit Crab because Nintendo
like actually doesn't own the rights to Tetris.
There is no way anyone owns the rights to squares though.
Like they didn't, they didn't have to call it Tetris.
They could just change the word yeah.
Falling square. And then Marilyn Monroe had a
cameo in this game, her iconic lips and beauty mark and

(50:07):
eyelashes and eyebrows, but she changed to a giant torque.
Why now? Why Marilyn Monroe?
No one owns Marilyn Monroe. Right.
I Right. But maybe she was considered,
maybe her name was copyright at that point.
You know what I mean? Model isn't.
Right, Yeah, it is interesting. Right.
They, it seems like they went through a lot of work and just

(50:28):
changing the name would have been fine.
As we learn, it's Street Fighter.
For Marilyn Monroe it to become a giant tortoise, that feels
like such a big change too. They couldn't have just done
another face. It's it's weird that they all
got replaced by like generic animals.
But yeah, I just thought that was interesting.
So much like Clue Clue Land, PicCross lives on in cameo form.

(50:49):
Mario's Explorer outfit from PicCross is an unlockable outfit in
Super Mario Odyssey. And one last fun piece of this
game's legacy is the official guidebook that was released for
Japan for the SNES version. It features a pen and paper pic
Cross puzzles, as well as an introductory comic.
That is the only time Peach has ever been depicted wearing the
Mario Brothers coveralls, which I thought was kind of cool.

(51:12):
It's like, you know, I don't know.
I, I, I, I like seeing her that way.
I'd never saw her in that outfitbefore.
Am I alone? That's kind of cool.
You're ignoring the 1993 Super Mario Brothers live action film.
Did she wear the coverage? At the end she is that.
Daisy, technically. Yeah, that's Daisy.

(51:33):
I'm, I'm being a crank. You know, I, I just, I love
bringing up the original Super Mario Brothers film.
That's a good one. And.
And you're you're of our mindsetright where it's secretly better
than the brand new one. Yeah, I, I think the, the we did
a nothing new episode comparing the two and it is shocking to me

(51:54):
how similar the new one is. Like they are taking story beats
and elements from the original. And I there's no reason for this
except that someone who was working on this loved the
original and wanted to make surethe legacy lived on and it and
it does. I will say I in design element
parts for this artwork for having a Mario Mario's pick

(52:20):
cross thing going. I find it odd cuz that's it uses
this whole like chiseling thing which I get back to.
But for this artwork, it's Marioand Luigi going down like a
hallway that's like pipes and everything that does not feel
like a because the chiseling environment almost kind of sets

(52:42):
it up in a way that feels very like archaeological.
And so that makes the like boiler room background feel
weird. But then also there is that the
two other things that feel of note in this specific artwork
would be that it it says what looks to be Mario Jones on it.

(53:04):
Isn't that brothers? It is it.
It just feels very, it feels almost Indiana Jones ish.
OK maybe. And then Mario has like red
sideburns here. We've been over this, Mike.
Mario has brown hair. You just never remember that he

(53:24):
does. I am saying that's red.
It is distracting. We've been over the brown hair,
black mustache thing where that those are different colors, but
this is a different color now. So really what I'm concluding
here is that Mario dyes his hair.
He. Must.
Yeah, I'm sure he does. But not the mustache.

(53:46):
That's a pain to like you don't have really a mustache like it's
a pain to dye it like it's you don't get all toxic fumes and
everything. Yeah, but I think, I think the
rest of the hair being dyed is also a pain, so I don't do that
either. So at least I'm consistent like
Luigi. There you go.
There you go. What what this image is
portraying is that they found a temple of plumbers, an ancient

(54:07):
plumbing temple, and that's they're going to uncover the
secrets in it. Well, we're going to put the
link in the show notes, but. You can go from the depths.
There you go. There you go.
You can. You can read this in the
Internet Archive and I don't speak Japanese or read Japanese,
but I could tell from the context of the images that it
begins in this boiler room situation and Wario has

(54:27):
kidnapped Peach but hidden like the passage to where he's taken
her in the walls of the boiler room.
So the first part they they chills all the way through to
find Peach and then the second time like they are in an
archaeological dig digging things out of like ancient
ruined walls. So lore wise you know if there
is actually an explanation for the whole kind of boiler room

(54:48):
setting. Yeah, and I will say the top
line translates to Mario Jones Adventure.
OK, so it is kind of an Indiana Jones joke.
I I take it you know what MM brought the receipts.
He always does. So before we get to the joy pros
and joy cons of Pit Cross and Super Pit Cross, what is our
history with these games and howfar did we each get?

(55:10):
Andrew, can we start with you? So you said you played it on the
DS. How far did you get trying out
the original two games here? Well, the original Mario's pit
cross. I played on the original Game
Boy and on the original Game BoyI beat it.
Every. Puzzle.
Every puzzle. You nintended how many computer?

(55:33):
And I did replay, you know, quite a few, but not, not nearly
enough. I did not complete it a second
time on the Switch. But yeah, I, I love it.
I don't know. It's a it's a good little game.
Yeah. For the Super Mario Super Pic
cross, I did not complete all the puzzles, but I did.

(55:56):
I jumped around quite a bit. And this was my first time even
knowing that this existed. I I didn't even know there was
an untranslated version for Super Nintendo for that I could
play on the Switch. So that was, that was kind of a
fun discovery, yeah. Yeah, it's more more of this
kind of style of game You reallyenjoy Mike, so I feel like you

(56:19):
are very good at these puzzles. How far did you get?
Because yeah, this is this is a style that like I've talked
about these kinds of games on multiple light Switch episodes.
At least there's at least one that I've done in one of my sort
of short reviews on on the old Switcheroos website.
I own more than that. So I didn't have any familiarity

(56:42):
with these going into it. I'd started off with the Gameboy
Mario's Π Cross and that one wasI'll.
I'll get into this specific prosand cons and a bunch of this a
bit later. I started better with that one,
switched over to Super Pic Ross and then immediately went back

(57:04):
because I was definitely preferring the first one.
Really. OK.
But so for the first one, it's three groups of 64 levels that
you actually get, like, here's 64 levels and you can kind of
pick and choose. And then the total pain of this
is that the last one, there's 64more once you unlock a time
trial mode. Yeah.

(57:25):
And it doesn't tell you how manyyou've done.
It just kind of gives you a new random 1.
So I have a whole bunch of tallymarks making sure that I got
through 64 of them. So I did beat the Game Boys
Mario Pic Ross. OK, you nintended.

(57:47):
I'm really confused. And then I went back to the
SNES1 and decided to mess aroundwith the settings because I was
having problems reading it and recognizing where symbols were
on the screen. And there's a mode on the SNES
to get it to replicate CRT display.

(58:09):
Yes, I've never used it before. I had never used it before.
It made it substantially more playable because the problem I
was having was the background pat.
Like they try to do texturing onthe backgrounds and for me it
was making it very difficult to see where I'd X out things and
to read the numbers. Interesting.
And I think it's because to do the background, it's in a pixel

(58:32):
level. It's, you know, 3 or 4 different
colors that are noticeably different.
But on ACRT screen, they kind ofblend together to give A and so
it's not a flat background, but it's it's smoothed that out.
OK. And so that got it to be
playable and for that game, because I think the first one's
got 256 levels. Super Mario Picros has 312, but

(58:57):
it's split between Mario levels and Wario levels.
Correct. So while I haven't solved every
puzzle, I have rolled credits onit by completing the Mario
levels. OK, so if he rolled credits,
Andrew, I think Heen intended beat it, don't you?
Yeah. Heen intended.

(59:17):
I'm in the computer. And I'm about level 5 complete.
I think I'm 5 completed on Warios.
So actually the last one I did to complete a section was the
chameleon that's replaced the screen.
Oh, interesting, interesting. So I'm heartbroken because I got

(59:38):
really addicted to this game. I'd only ever played the pit
cross demo on a 3DS. And even then it was like 2
minutes of like numbers. I was 20, you know, like I was
just wasn't, wasn't in the placeto be receptive to it.
And I was really ready to trash this game on today's episode.
And then something clicked and all of a sudden I started seeing

(59:58):
the patterns and the numbers andthe correlation.
And when that happens, it's a great moment cuz you're like,
oh. I almost kind of speak the
language of this game now and soI got really, really hooked and
I used rewind quite a lot. So I got to this screen Mike,
that declare that I have solved every puzzle in Pit Cross.

(01:00:19):
I did not go through all 64 timetrial ones, but I think there's
also an academic argument that this screen signifies that I
have beaten the game and time trials is like extra.
I I would say #1 this is exactlywhy I asked and it was credits
for every puzzle. Thanks.

(01:00:40):
And the 64 in time trial are areall new.
OK, so you clearly think I don'tget the sound effect.
I think I do Andrew be the tiebreaker here.
I mean, it says, congratulations, you have solved
every puzzle in Pit Cross, even though apparently there are 64
more after this. The game's telling you you did

(01:01:02):
it. I I think that's a, that's you
did it. The modes are easy pick cross,
pick cross and time trial. Time trial seems like a new Game
Plus. That's what I'm arguing, but I
do also understand that Mike asked what my considered and he
followed by my rules. So you know what Mike?
I'm not going to play it for myself.
I'm going to be the bigger man for once in my God damn life.

(01:01:29):
That hurts though. So then Super Mario super pic
cross. I was blatantly cheating.
I have, I have footage of it. I have the solutions on my
laptop screen and the puzzle andthis thing and I'm literally
just coloring in the dots because I because I thought I
had to beat all the Mario levelsto try the Wario challenge.
And for those who've never triedit before, Mario.

(01:01:51):
So Mario's is the gameplay I prefer, where you are chiseling
in little boxes based on the patterns of numbers on the top
and the side of the screen, and it's telling you essentially how
many, the size of each chunk in that row or column, how many
chunks there are, and what orderthey appear in.

(01:02:13):
And you get penalized if you make a mistake, you lose 2
minutes for your first mistake out of your total 30.
Your second mistake you lose 4 minutes, and then every mistake
after that you lose 8 minutes. So you can game over pretty
easily if you're not being careful.
But Wario's is the opposite. There is no such thing as a
mistake because you just can never beat it until you solve

(01:02:34):
the puzzle without any sort of assistance being told if you got
it right or wrong. Well, and the Wario, the wario
time is going up. Wario time is going up, yes so.
So Wario is essentially time trial mode from the Gameboy
version, but you only need to beat 12 Mario puzzles before you
unlock the first Mario stages. And I just never noticed this
freaking hand on the menu screenpointing me to the left.

(01:02:56):
I beat 120 Mario levels looking for this freaking hand.
Oh. Right.
I was going to say because the other part is because so I was
since this isn't Japanese and I don't speak Japanese, I had my
phone out for this and so I had Google Translate up with the

(01:03:17):
camera for things like the screen that basically says
roughly a you've unlocked the Wario puzzles after the end of
the first one. Also super cool is that I have
learned what M&W are in this script because when you switch
screens. So this says Mario's super high

(01:03:41):
cross I presume. But definitely the first part is
Mario is when you switch over itjust a character flies in from
off screen and over it goes right over the M to replace it
with AW basically. Yeah.
Which is a super cool thing. It's.
A fun transition effect. Yeah, and, and Wario is always
like that from the from the start, he was always just like

(01:04:04):
you flip over the M to be Wario.So Wario is always like pasting
over Mario's name to make a namefor himself.
I think that's fun. Yeah.
And I did not know that there was a Wario mode in this at all.
So when that happens, like oh what the heck.
Oh, this is interesting now. Yeah, that's fun.
So I wanted to play a quick minigame minute.

(01:04:27):
If you guys are down, this is going to be called a pictures
worth 1000 squares. I, like a maniac, took a
screenshot of every single puzzle solution in the cross and
not all of them are immediately obvious what you're looking at.
It shows you the image and then the game almost invites you to
guess what it is because then you press the button again and

(01:04:47):
then it'll give you the name of it.
So I'm going to show you guys a series of 12 pictures.
This is a rapid fire mini game challenge.
So the way it's going to work isthat you're each going to say as
fast as you can what you think it's an image of.
OK, whoever gets the answer first gets the point, but you
each only get one guess. So if neither of you get it, I

(01:05:08):
will say the correct answer. I'll give you a clue.
You wouldn't rather that if we get it wrong we just have to
wait 2 minutes? Or you just cut 2 minutes of me
talking out of the podcast. You kill me that way.
OK, so you guys understand you're just gonna blurt it out
if you think you know it. But don't just keep on shouting
things. Say one thing, OK?

(01:05:28):
Right, OK, so let's start here with round #1IN pit cross.
You see a wide variety of images, including.
That's a goomba. That's a.
Bowling pins. Birthday cake.
So the first the first one was agoomba and the second one was
bowling pins. There's also images of.
Platypus. Crocodile.

(01:05:50):
Platypus, Duck bill. That's what that was.
Stroller strollers. A race car.
Race cars. Stove.
Oven. Wooden stove.
Nice tie game three to three. We can't say that on this
podcast. I.
Let's say. If you're not watching on

(01:06:14):
YouTube you're missing out people.
Let's say a waterfall. I have no idea.
Vacuum cleaner. Come on guys, keep the classy
that. Was yeah, that was ridiculous.
A lot of a lot of these, there'sthis such a thing as you're
going through these of like if you focus on the wrong thing and
think of it as like, yeah, you don't realize that like the

(01:06:36):
thing you're focusing on is the negative space.
Correct. All right.
How about a walrus? I'm not giving you either.
It's a seal. Neither of you are right.
Bathtub Man. A bath.
That Yoshi. Mini Yoshi.
Mini Yoshi. Mini Yoshi.
Actually, given that one to Mike, it's 4:00 to 4:00.
That's that's clearly mini Yoshi's a distinct character, as

(01:06:56):
he covered in a Super World episode.
Yeah. And how about?
Angel. Think Subway and Matchsticks,
Mike. A kite.
Mike pulls ahead. Wow.
And then one last one. Rubber duck.
That is a tie. How'd that happen?

(01:07:18):
I also would have accepted Mike Snakes from a pot.
This is a duck. Well, I wish I don't have a tie
break actually here. What's what's this one?
I don't even know what this is. Yeah, that is, that is a
Japanese letter. Yeah, that's a kanji for sure.
Mike wins. Mike wins six to five.
Good work, boys. Proud of you.
So Andrew, you said you love Pick Cross.

(01:07:41):
What do you like about these games?
Something other than what you'vealready mentioned, of course.
You know, I, I think it's, it's a fun game style.
I think it plays really well on a game.
You know, some of these, when they translate it from like a
written type thing into a game, sometimes you lose some of the
magic, but it's like the, the fun of it's like you are

(01:08:02):
chiseling like they make that part of the game play.
So that's kind of fun to reveal.Yeah.
So yeah, I, I like that. I like, you know, you were
showing the puzzles that they replaced, but it is kind of like
anything can be a puzzle, you know, anything can be a pic
cross image. So like even Marilyn Monroe was

(01:08:23):
a stretch. But you know, that's Marilyn
Monroe. She's got the mole, She's got
the lips. Yeah, the scream.
It's like that's that's certainly the scream.
Like, you know, I I'm certain I've played one where it was
Mona Lisa, you know, like they like anything like you can take
recognizable art pieces and makeit into pic Ross or you can take

(01:08:43):
animals. You know, it's like there's
different types and I was, I wastalking to a friend recently and
he does print out versions of Giant Picross.
Like it is like 100 by 100. Yeah, at like it's just insane.
And he just, I think he just does a a section at a time or

(01:09:05):
something, But it's, it's huge. He prints it out and he's a
teacher. So he has it on his wall at his
at the school and it's like it'sfun to kind of he reveals a
little bit everyday and it's like you can look at it like
that or these are just bite size15 minutes or less.
You just go in and you clear a puzzle and it's just logic

(01:09:25):
games. It makes it fun.
It feels very solvable. It doesn't feel too, too obscure
or difficult. And then I mean like we just
played that mini game. Sometimes trying to guess what
it's showing you is just as fun,because if you kind of catch on
you can you can see the patterns. 100%.

(01:09:46):
Yeah. So I mean, it just goes on
forever. And I mean, that's that's why I
think the the fun of they've, they've made so many different
versions on DS and all that where it's like, yeah, these can
just go on forever. They don't have to be anything
particular and they don't have to really change it too much.
I mean the and the squares get bigger.
You start with the 5 by 5 and then you go 10 by 10, then 15,
then 20 and it just gets, yeah, huge, right?

(01:10:10):
And I think that's that adds to the challenge and that's where
the fun is. Yeah, and I think it's a really
good casual yet challenging game.
So like I was waiting for my because I got like eliminated in
war zone. And so I was just kind of
sitting listening to my friends Xbox chat and I picked up my

(01:10:31):
switch and I did a couple of pick cross puzzles, you know
what I mean? Or like Jackie's watching 90 day
Fiance and I'm like lying next to her playing some pick cross
because like, you know, you can pause the game anytime.
And also, you know, much like Clue, Clue Land, like I think
that for me, Nintendo Switch Online or Nintendo Classics,
whatever you want to call it, isprobably the best way to play
these because I'm casual. When I make a mistake, I don't

(01:10:54):
mind rewinding and OK, put an X there just because I don't want
to have to retry again and redo a puzzle.
I failed. I just want to gradually reveal
the image. Even if I'm not playing the game
the way it was meant to be played, I'm still enjoying it.
The game the way it was meant tobe played is wrong.
What do you mean? Way it penalizes mistakes so you
have a game. Over you're saying pen and paper

(01:11:16):
is more like time trial mode. I wouldn't say most of the other
games I've played have also a bit more like that.
OK, see I prefer the version that goes oopsie and takes time
off because then I can use the oopsie to help me solve the
puzzle faster. Yeah.
But then you go oopsie, it takestime off, and then you rewind it

(01:11:36):
so the time goes back on. Yeah.
Yeah, I have no problem with that because I'm having fun with
the toy. There's nothing more painful for
me than to hear the oopsie noise.
It's truly like, I'm like. No, especially if it's a miss
click. Yeah, Oh my God, yeah, that one

(01:11:57):
kill. I'm like why?
You know, it's really funny because in playing the game for
this episode, like, not to brag,but like, I got my Switch too,
right. And so the first half of the
puzzles I was playing on my old Switch and the second-half I was
playing on the Switch 2. And the joysticks on the Switch
2 are actually sensitive to the point that it made the Game Boy
version much harder. And I had to use the directional

(01:12:20):
buttons, which is not quite as comfortable form factor wise.
And so it was this weird moment of like, whoa, like, because you
think about like, an old Game Boy is like, what's a cross,
right? And so games are programmed with
the cross in mind. Well, now I have like so many
degrees of fine motion that somehow it didn't quite
translate. I always just use the buttons.

(01:12:41):
Yeah, yeah, the directional pad is, is so much more accurate.
I I feel like I go to that naturally.
I prefer joystick if I can get away with it.
Like, I'll even play Street Fighter 2, you know, the SNES
version on the joystick. If I if, if, if it feels right.
It didn't feel right in this game.
But I love what Andrew said though.
But like, it feels like you're really chiseling because like,

(01:13:01):
yes, it's a numbers game. Yes, that's a logic game.
It also kind of feels like an art game.
And you're chiseling away at this rock.
And much like how artists can like picture the, the, the face
they're trying to create and they always have that in mind as
they're chiseling away at it, You can kind of.
Oh, OK, it looks like I've created a dog paw in this corner

(01:13:22):
of the screen. So now let's take our geometry
skills from 7th grade or in 8th grade, and let's do a
reflection. And let's assume there's going
to be a paw on the other side ofthe screen in exactly that
place. Most of the time the pictures
are centered and symmetrical, soyou kind of get help if you
start to visualize it. Do you guys play it that way?
It's definitely how I played it.Your peer numbers, Mike.

(01:13:44):
Yeah. But I think the the numbers back
up that kind of visual play style.
And, and if they don't, then youjust know that it's not going to
be like that. Like even looking at the one you
have on the screen now, it's like you don't really see a
symmetry. You do see like a like something
in motion with like the two oneson the left turning into 3 ones
and five. So it's like something is like

(01:14:06):
growing and then and then coming, coming up.
It's kind of interesting. Oh.
Oh, I never really. OK, so you're seeing the bigger
numbers and you can kind of see the beginnings of the code.
Wow, that's cool. It's like when the more you play
this game, I feel like you kind of start to see the Matrix and

(01:14:27):
like all the little numbers start to form the images, like
Neo in the hallway, Right? It's a cool feeling.
It really is. Mike, what else do you like
about it? I would like to save my stuff to
where we get between joy pros and joy cons because you're kind
of trying to talk about these asone game and I think of them as
very two different, as two very different experiences.

(01:14:49):
OK. So, Andrew, are you cool to get
into the comparison between the two?
Yeah. OK, Mike, take it away.
OK, so and again, a lot of this comes from that I play a lot of
these the pro kind of is just asa general, you know, logic kind
of game, which I do like and certainly these worked well for

(01:15:09):
these are really like ideal second screen games to me, where
I part of that has to do with the fact that I was thoroughly
underwhelmed by the music and boop boop here.
A lot of it. Boop boop, boop, boop, boop.
OK. Yeah.
And so I muted that and like I listen to a whole lot of nothing

(01:15:30):
new during this. Nice.
Because I'm just going through this, I was like, I'm going to
put something on. And so I think certainly the
first one. It.
Biggest strength, I think like actually it's biggest strength
is time trial mode for me, because I think that was a much
more fun mode. And so getting to that is where
the game got better. And certainly I think it the

(01:15:52):
Gameboy version displays better on the screen.
And I think a part of that is they're really trying to
maximize screen space because itwas on a Gameboy.
And so I'm playing on ATV. It is.
It is clear and easy to read. Yeah.
When I got over to the S and ES version, I think it doesn't use

(01:16:14):
the screen as well. I found it harder to read and as
they start getting into more complex puzzles, sizes start
shrinking down and it gets the point where it's hard to read.
But it had a bunch of quality oflife adjustments that I
appreciated. So like on the Game Boy, you
cannot mark off on the sides. If you've completed a block, you

(01:16:36):
can kind of cross it out and be like, OK, no, I've taken care of
that, which on larger puzzles becomes more useful.
They also really get rid of the chiseling animation in the
original Game Boy that I found incredibly frustrating and would
because you have to have like you have the whole chisel
animation and stuff that takes enough time that it was easy to

(01:16:59):
mess up because I would try to move as I'm trying to move and
go like, OK, I know I have a whole row ready to go, And so
getting rid of that was an improvement.
Once I fixed the visual display thing somewhat on the SES, it
improved a bit more and then because you very quickly get to

(01:17:20):
the Warios super pic Ross. I enjoy that one a lot more as
well because it doesn't have thepenalty of I've accidentally
clicked in the wrong spot because nine times out of 10 if
I got penalized, I knew it was wrong as well.
It was I clicked the wrong spot.I see what you're saying.
Yeah. It's it's it's slapping your

(01:17:41):
wrist for something you already knew was a missed click.
And it just, it just roils you that way.
I totally get what you're saying.
It's just fascinating because like, you know, Mike and I like
very different styles of games and I think that they were kind
of wise to include sort of an arcady dumb, dumb mode for Jamo
where it's like, hey, wrong square buddy.
I'm like, thanks, game and Mike's like I'll figure it out.
Don't don't condescend to me. Like I just it's this.

(01:18:05):
I'm I'm surprised at how much I like this and I think it's
because of that mode. Yeah.
And I think the and the worst was having situations where it
was like, it's a wrong click andnow I'm going to game over
because I don't have enough timebecause these are large puzzles.
And again, rewinding, I never cared about a missed click.
I mean, I'd annoyed me, but it didn't ruin my day.

(01:18:26):
I do think though, it must be said, since we're talking about
how the Super Nintendo and the Game Boy versions compare, is
that Super Nintendo a Game Boy the the most spaces you can have
is a three by three puzzle. So that would be 15 by 15,
right? So how many spaces?
What's 15 * 15, Mike? 225 two. 125 and then the Super

(01:18:47):
Nintendo because they had the full television, the biggest 1
you can get is 5 by 4 so. 25 by 20.
Yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, 25 by 20 because each each
grid is 5 by 5 by 5. But anyway, much bigger puzzles.
I like 2 player mode. Mike, did you like it?
I thought that was kind of fun. I I was not really a fan of it.

(01:19:09):
Andrew, did you ever try to playremote on pit cross?
No, I didn't even know those existed until you mentioned them
the other day. I was like, oh.
If you want, when we're done recording, you know, I should do
a puzzle real quick because I thought it was fun.
But Mike, so I liked it because it was fun to see that I was
working in this part of the puzzle.
And then I see you making progress, and I could see like

(01:19:30):
speedrunners working together toget through a game like this
that could be really interestingfrom like a teamwork perspective
and communication and whatnot. But what didn't you like about?
Was it me? It was me, wasn't it, Mike?
It's it's you. Because these are logic puzzles.
It removes the ability to, I think, to be methodical.

(01:19:55):
OK, OK. Even if I was getting it right,
it was still interrupting your brain flow.
Yeah, OK, OK. I love interrupting your brain
flow, Mike. That's like my whole thing.
The whole. Podcast of that, in a sense,
yeah. Anything else you guys like
about these games or I guess want to complain about?
I think we're kind of doing bothat this point.
There's definitely I felt spoiled because of having played

(01:20:19):
pick Ross on the DS and and the way that some of those things
will just automatically like on on these.
I didn't even realize on the Super Nintendo version that you
could mark off the numbers on the side to say that you've
completed that number because onthe kick cross version on the
DS, they just do that automatically.

(01:20:41):
You just know you've knocked outthat that section of it.
So those are just little complaints where I'm like, well,
you know, this is an older game.Like it's not gonna have
everything that the fancy new game has.
That's that's for sure. And I, I jumped around.
I didn't play in order cuz I wasfor the Super Nintendo one.
I was, I was just kind of like, OK, let me go to this level.

(01:21:03):
OK, let me go jump to the next jump to the next.
So I, I don't think I got like the full experience, but it was
it was definitely, you know, some of those modern touches
that are missing where I'm like,I know they figured this out
eventually. Yeah.
But even, I mean, when I was playing Mario's pic Ross on the

(01:21:25):
Game Boy like 10 years ago or whatever, when I rediscovered, I
was like, I was like, yeah, I was like, yeah, it's not modern.
But it was the fact that it was like a Game Boy and it felt like
the, the classicness of it is what you're coming for, not the
not modern sensibilities and like updated gameplay.
So I, my, my complaints are so small and not even really about

(01:21:48):
the game itself. I I feel like the game it, it
nails the premise. So it's you can't, I can't
really complain that much. I'm glad you said it that way
too, because I think that this sort of falls into the same kind
of brain space as like a crossword puzzle where it's like
it's timeless and it's so simpleand it's the same rules every
time. And that's why it's a fun casual

(01:22:09):
thing. And like, you'd never complain
that a crossword puzzle doesn't have like updated graphics or
whatever, you know what I mean? It's just there's a purity to
this kind of puzzle that I thinkis just really good design.
Something that really drove me nuts is again, I like the
version where like it, you know,will tell you if you made a
mistake and so on that same token, if you're playing the
Mario version and you, you know,chisel away at a square and it

(01:22:33):
breaks and you don't get penalized, you know that that's
set right. But then you can still erase it.
And actually, why would you let me erase it if like, how would
that possibly help me? Why would I ever want to do
that? But then, you know, you go to
Wario mode or time trial mode. Well, you have to have that
option because you need to be able to correct mistakes.

(01:22:54):
A thing all in that same vein where and I'm this is what I'm
like. This definitely could have been
done. Is more specifically that I do
not think it should let you directly overwrite that.
If you put an X, it shouldn't let you just put a block over
and a large part of that is because there's something

(01:23:15):
incredibly satisfying with thesegames.
Big OK, these are the ones that aren't.
I can just fill in the rest and in either case of either filling
in squares or filling in things you know it aren't know it
cannot be squares. This lets you overwrite those
and it's like that was another thing.
Mistakes be like, OK I have 5 ina row here and then I've already

(01:23:36):
exed out the next few cuz I knowthat those can't be it and have
it go through and overwrite one where I have the right thing
there, you've overwritten it. I don't like that was a bit
where I'm like it should not do that.
And it's so simple, it could have just been that instead of
immediately overwriting your ex,it just has an animation where

(01:23:56):
it erases it and then breaks it and you go OK stop.
You know, it would have removed a lot of frustration and missed
clicks, especially for you sinceyou're not rewinding.
Yeah, if it just used the erase or if it was because it has the
the erase and just having the erase is in my mind like that's
fine. Just don't let one symbol
overwrite the other would have gone a very long way.

(01:24:19):
And honestly, for me not having a time limit thing, because
there there are puzzles where they're complex puzzles and I'm
like in the time allotted, I cannot get through that whole
puzzle. Just because the sheer number of
clicks. Also just do the amount of like
going through and checking things to the point where I

(01:24:40):
decided like, OK, this one feelsfair because I've done it is I
would have ones where I'd get through most of the time, take a
picture of it and then go back and then I'd still it would
still take like 10 minutes to fill most of it in.
Could I be like, I'm almost donewith this thing and I'm just
going to run out of time? And I much prefer the time
counting up. A new dirty cheater taking a

(01:25:03):
picture of the king of the cheater.
That's not even cheating. Well can I just give a shout out
though? I thought I kind of touched on
it briefly, but I love in the Super Nintendo version, some of
the animations are really cute. They have like a there's a
drinking fountain. It's like gurgling water and
then it explodes for no reason. There's a little alarm clock.

(01:25:23):
It's kind of dancing. And to me it's very like
evocative, or I guess it's not evocative.
The alarmo might have been inspired by this little
animation, but it looks similar to me.
My favorite animation was that one of the puzzle solutions for
pic cross is a pic cross board. You recreate the entire pic
Cross board and then the winninganimation it fills it in and

(01:25:45):
shows you the animation of the animation.
I did not get how you know getting inception by a 30 year
old puzzle game like that was a fun moment.
Like my jaw literally dropped onthe stream.
I was like, Oh my God, it's big.There was also a neat bit with
the S and ES version since it has the Mario and Wario things

(01:26:07):
and has scenes with Mario. It's like when you go through
the Mario one, each time you complete it, he basically says
something the lines of like, congratulations, you've
completed this, this set of puzzles.
Here's another one. And then and at the at the end,
like when you when you actually beat all of that, he bows.
That's cool. But when you do the Wario ones,

(01:26:30):
what Wario says when you complete one is I think
unfortunately you beat the puzzles.
Nice. Which was a nice extra touch of
personality to those, yeah. And it's like, and the, if
you're playing the Wario puzzles, it's Wario's hand that
swats the dust away and it's Mario's like politely, you know,
just little stuff like that. It's like, you didn't have to do

(01:26:51):
that, but I appreciate that you did.
I just, they're just moments. And I think Andrew touched upon
earlier where it's like you don't really know what you're
looking at. But like for the Super Nintendo
1, like I don't know the kanji alphabet, I don't know like what
Rd. signs look like in Japan. So there was a lot of puzzles
where like I was just like, OK, I did it.
I don't know what I'm looking at.
And the animation is kind of undulating.
So let's just go on to the next one.

(01:27:12):
Like I don't know anything else to say in defense or criticism
of Pic Cross or Super Pic Cross before you render our verdicts
guys, no. I think it for how long you
spend on puzzles, I think the music could have been better.
But yeah, at this point it's very easy to mute it and put
something else on that's more entertaining.
And you it's like, like I said, like a crossword puzzle, like,
you know, the crossword puzzle has bad music.

(01:27:34):
And it's like change the station.
And I suppose I I do wish I could have just.
I got tired of having to exit out of the prompts about hints.
I wish I could have just said stop asking me about those.
Oh, the hint was I, I was sayingno.
And then at a certain point I accidentally said yes.
And then it was the most fun thing I've ever seen where it
like, like a, like a casino slotmachine, like it, the little

(01:27:58):
randomizer picks what row and column it's going to show you.
I was like, oh I'm doing this every time now.
It's more fun and and like I said, I'm a casual gamer when it
comes to puzzle. I mean, I'm a casual gamer in
most regards, but like, you know, it's like, yes, I like I'm
going to cheat anyway. Give me two full row, give me a
row and a call. And it was hilarious when like
the game would automatically fill in one for you that you

(01:28:20):
knew was empty. And it's like.
Thanks. Zero.
Yeah, yeah, thanks. Pick Ross.
But you know what I did, Mike? I reround that bad boy and spun
the roulette again like I just. I'm here for a good time, not a
long time. You love rewinding.
This is like the most low stakesever and you're like, I got to
rewind I. You're not wasting my time game

(01:28:42):
Andrew. If you get me, you get me, and
that's not a good thing. To beat the first game was like
30 out, just over 30 hours for me.
And to for the second one to getthrough all of Mario 6 levels of
Wario was another 30 hours. It's like there is a lot of
time, but to me like the the meat of that is the logic it

(01:29:03):
out. And so kind of the the hint
thing runs against that for me, but.
You know what's interesting I just while we were talking I
fired up my switch and I turned on the CRT filter for the Super
Nintendo version. I cannot play that way like that
hurts my eyes. So leave a comment or maybe
we'll put a discord pole. Does CRT improve this for you or

(01:29:25):
or not? I'm curious why it'd be
different for us. Do you have the Switch docked?
No, dock it. Cuz I suspect it's that cuz it's
I'm playing it on ATV. OK, I'll try Mr. Scientist.
OK, well guys, that brings us tothe moment of truth.
We've covered the Joy pros, the joy Cons, and every bit in
between. So it's time to declare each

(01:29:45):
game from today's episode as a Nintendo or a Nintend.
Don't. So, Andrew, can you start us
off? We'll start off with Clue.
Clue Land on the NES. Would you recommend it?
Do you think it's worth people'stime?
Yeah, that's a Nintendo. Nintendo.
I think that'll for people who who have played a lot of older
games, I think it might shock them.

(01:30:06):
It has, it has like such a weirdplay style.
Yeah, I I think people, people should experience it.
OK, OK. And I enjoy it.
I honestly do enjoy it. You're down for some clue Clue.
But so you there's other tiers. Is it a Super Nintendo?
Is it Nintendo 64? Like how far are you gonna

(01:30:27):
recommend it? No, it's just a Nintendo.
It's a solid, flat Nintendo. Yeah.
Let's not go crazy. Let's not go crazy.
Mike, I think you're going a different way.
Am I reading you right? It's tough in that on one hand,
I do somewhat appreciate it is ainteresting way of controlling
like I appreciate that for that.And it almost just feels like

(01:30:49):
there's just too many things that fell into more into making
that way of playing enjoyable interms of like the the way the
time runs down and in terms of, you know, the ability to get
stuck and not be able to get outkind of stuff that I think puts
this narrowly on the Nintendo side of things.
OK, reluctant Nintendo. It's just, yeah, it's just like

(01:31:12):
it's there's promise there whereI'm kind of like, it's worth
kind of checking where I kind ofwant to be like it's worth
checking out. But then I'm like.
But then it gets really, really frustrating in a way that's not
that for me, was not fun. Yeah.
It's a disappointed Nintent, don't it?
Was almost there. Oh yeah, do you have levels?
Levels of Nintend don't. It's the same one.

(01:31:34):
Super Nintendo Nintendo 60. Four, I thought you'd go, you'd
go. The other you'd name them after
Sega Genesis. Mikes try.
He's tried to do a virtual boy or something like that.
I wasn't gonna. Bring No.
I, I was slightly concerned thatbecause I think of that as the
thing of this isn't necessarily going to be good, but you should
check it out just so you know what it is briefly, but like,

(01:31:56):
it's not like, oh, I'm going to invest time in this just like,
so you've seen what this is. OK, so I'm look, look, because
because I like Andrew. OK, I'm going to meet you
halfway here. What if it's a virtual DOI where
it's like it's worth checking out but it's still bad?
I don't think it's everyone's. It's not everyone's cup of tea,
I. Will allow a new category called

(01:32:17):
virtual. No I won't, no I won't.
This is madness. No, this is crazy.
No, I take it back. I hate it immediately.
I did not like Clue. Clue land.
I'm tempted to go Nintendo because I think within 30
seconds of playing you'll know if you're going to enjoy it or
not. But I really struggle imagining
why Andrew likes this game so much.

(01:32:38):
It's so difficult and so hard tocontrol and in not a good way.
So listen, I hate to do it. I was going to be a Super
Nintendo, but you've talked me down to just a regular, also
kind of reluctant Nintendo. I'm sorry to overrule our guest
Andrew, but I just don't think Klu Kulin is very good.
But I'm happy. I love that for you, as our kids

(01:33:00):
say. I knew I was bringing, I was
fighting a losing battle. I brought a loser into the
arena. But listen though, like I think
it's the teacher in me. You always look for the good,
you know what I mean? And there's other fans of this
game out there. And if you're one of the five
fans of this game that exists, like, leave a comment, you know
what I mean? This falls into game reviews.
Like movie reviews. Part of the value is knowing,

(01:33:23):
OK, these are where my tastes are and this is where that
person's tastes are. And so there is a if this is a
kind of game play you like, it can work.
It doesn't work for me, but thatdoesn't mean it doesn't work for
anyone. I'm standing on the side of
supporting the first woman in video games ever.
Yeah, you know. Oh, oh, you're tempting me.
You're tempting me to jump sides.
Andrew I. The first female protagonist I

(01:33:46):
really. Don't want to be on the wrong
side of history in 2025 like I OK, let's move on to pit cross.
Let's do Game Boy and Super Nintendo both at the same time.
What's your verdict for each one, Andrew?
Mario's Pit Cross and Mario's Super Pit Cross.
You know, this is interesting because thinking of them, I just

(01:34:09):
kind of automatically lump them together, but the gameplay is
different enough that I, I to separate them out and render A
verdict. I mean, I, I feel like Mario's
pic Ross is a Nintendo. That's just, I, I would even go
to like Super Nintendo for for the Game Boy version.

(01:34:31):
Love it. But the I think with the
translation issues with the Mario's super pic Ross, I that
I'm, I'm on the verge of a Nintendo.
I I feel like it's, you know, it's the same game play that you
love, but I don't think I think people it it's not, it's not as

(01:34:52):
appealing. And obviously they kind of knew
that because it never did release in America.
Like there's something somethingabout it where they're like,
well, never mind, we'll just stick to what we have.
I guess it does get a Nintendo because I do like the Wario
Mario silliness that they throw in there.
Yeah. It's a it's a mild Nintendo for

(01:35:13):
for Super pic Ross, but Mario's pic Ross is definitely it's a
Super Nintendo for me. I'm fascinated, Mike, I'm going
to, I'm going to go next becauseI want to say the suspense
because like he mentions like the Wario part, you can get to
that much faster in the Super Nintendo version.
You got to beat all of the Game Boy versions to unlock time
trial mode. And even though I know Mike

(01:35:33):
prefers the Game Boy version, I wonder how that's going to sway
him. So I am, I'm splitting the vote
here because I really like the Super Nintendo version.
I like the weird animations. I really like 2 player mode.
I liked the color, I liked some of the quality of life
improvements to the point that I'm like, would I play the Game
Boy version? And I don't think I would

(01:35:57):
because I think that everything that the Game Boy version does,
the Super Nintendo version does,but it does more.
And especially since some of thelike, like I think both puzzles
have like a leaf as one of the answers.
So like you're kind of almost creating the same kinds of
images. So not taking anything away from
the Gameboy original, but because I think it's kind of

(01:36:17):
rendered irrelevant, especially since both games are actually at
the same basic subscription for Nintendo Switch Online.
If you have access to pic cross,you have access to what I think
is the better Mario Super pic Cross.
So that's a Nintendo and Gameboyis a Nintendo.
Don't Mike. What?
What's your what's your verdict?I think, and this is coming from

(01:36:38):
someone who plays a lot of gamesin the in this genre, I think
they both fall as Nintendo's. Part of that is there's so many
other games in that space that are the same thing that have a
lot of those additional featuresthat really make this a lot

(01:37:01):
nicer of experience in terms of things like, OK, this game is
not going to have me game over in such a frustrating way.
Yeah, or, you know, things can'tover don't just overwrite like
that that make it a lot easier. And then certainly more modern
games also have things like if you've completed, if you've

(01:37:22):
marked out blocks, it will update this this top and the
side to be like, OK, yeah, you've you put those on the
board already. But at the same time, like these
are that whole genre is not a game that's terribly replayable
because the whole point with thelogic puzzle is kind of like
figuring it out. And those are tough to revisit.

(01:37:44):
And so there's a sense for like,I'm always kind of after more.
And I don't think they both havethings that frustrate me.
But neither were to the point ofnot playing the SNES one was
going to be until I switched switched modes.
And then graphically I could look at it and read it.
So once I could do that, definitely it's more puzzles.

(01:38:07):
I do recommend like Google Translate on a phone for it just
to figure out what some of the things you get shown are, but I
don't think it's necessary. So even though it's not in
English, really, once you've figured out the one, the one
prompt it shows you is do you want a hint or not?
There's nothing else that actually kind of you have to
worry about what it's asking youabout.

(01:38:28):
Everything else is straightforward or it's numbers.
Yeah, it's the universal language.
There you go. Yeah.
OK, Well, I think we're going tocall that game over for today.
The final score for Clue. Clue Land is a reluctant intend.
Don't. And both pic Cross and Mario
Super Pic Cross are both Nintendos.

(01:38:50):
The council has spoken. Andrew, thank you so much for
taking us for a spin today. Before you get on out of here,
why don't you tell our listenersone more time where they can
find your stuff? Yeah, you can find find me on
Instagram and various online places at podcaster Andrew, you
can check out nothing new or remake podcast on pretty much

(01:39:10):
any podcast app that you use newepisodes every month.
We also have a Patreon where we have bonus episodes.
So check check all that out. It's is this Is this releasing
relatively soon? About a month and 1/2.
Yeah, a couple months out. Yeah, then it might be might be

(01:39:33):
How to Train Your Dragon is our most recent episode.
Oh yeah. Because are you guys at 100,
you're coming up on 100? We're, we're so close.
I, I, we might have hit 100 and I'd missed it.
No, I think I think maybe how totrain Your dragon will be 100.
Pretty dope. It's either that or the OR the
July episode, which I still wantto be mysterious about, but
it'll be it's a really, it's a big one.

(01:39:55):
So okay, if that's 100 that would be more thematically cool,
but might be How to Train your Dragons 100.
Makes it in post. Yeah, we'll do it live.
OK, well, that all sounds northeast.
Excellent. Everyone.
Join us next time and we'll be boosting into the Big Blue
Yonder with F0 for the SNES and F-099 for Nintendo Switch

(01:40:17):
Online. Also, don't forget to visit
www.theoldswitcharoo.com. There you can find links to our
Spotify, our YouTube, Instagram,and all the social medias you
can shake a joystick at. You can even leave an old timey
voicemail, meaning we would literally love to hear from you.
Or even better, join the fun on our Discord server where you can
play games, talk games, and evenmake a friend or two.

(01:40:38):
Big thanks to Crystal Fields forour incredible intro song.
And thank you dear Listener for liking, commenting, subscribing,
reviewing and playing along withus every step of the way.
This has been the old Switcheroowhere you've been talking gaming
retro with Mike and Jamo. I've been Mike.
And I've been jamo game on everyone.

(01:41:07):
I don't like the Eddie. Well, actually I kind of like
both of them to be honest. But the newer Haunted Mansion I
thought was actually OK and the.I think the the the first one I
appreciate as like if this didn't have Eddie Murphy in it,
I think this had almost work, which is a problem when he is
the main person. And then the newer one, I just

(01:41:27):
like it as part of the Disney live action depressed physicist
trilogy. What are the other two?
It's that Sorcerer's Apprentice and Tomorrowland.
OK. Is that a little close to home
there buddy?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S3E11: Clu Clu Land, Mario's Picross and Super Picross -or- Steganographic Imagery Viewer Discretion Advised