Addiction, Recovery and Purpose

In this episode of The One Pebble Podcast, Kristine and Harris sit down with Dr. Scott Abrams; a physician board certified in addiction medicine, who is in recovery himself for an addiction to opioid pain medication. Dr. Abrams shares his profound journey from a promising medical career to the depths of addiction and ultimately to recovery. He discusses his early life, the impact of faith, the allure of opioids, and the moment he hit rock bottom. Learn how his own addiction, recovery journey and subsequent work in addiction medicine has given him purpose; and why he says there is always hope. 

To find Scott's book: 

Tristan Publishing

Amazon

Scott's daily blog: faithinthestruggle.com

Check out our Facebook page; find us on Instagram or send us an email at [e-mail].

Episode Transcript

Speaker 01 (00:03):
This is the One Pebble Podcast.
I'm your host, Kristine.
Welcome to the One PebblePodcast.
It is my great joy today andhonor, along with my son and
co-host Harris, To be sittingdown and visiting with Dr.
Scott Abrams, a friend and acommunity leader that we've

(00:26):
known for 20 plus years.
Before we begin today, I wantto read his bio.
Dr.
Scott Abrams is the medicaldirector for CentraCare's
Coordinated and CorrectionalMedicine Program, which provides
medical care for thoseincarcerated in three local
county jails and whichcoordinates follow-up care for

(00:48):
those patients in CentraCare'sThank you so much for joining
us.
In correctional medicine, he'swritten CentraCare's policy on

(01:23):
medication, assisted treatmentin jail, which directs care for
patients while they're in jailand after they're released.
Dr.
Scott, welcome.
Thank you so much for sittingdown with us today.
Before we hear your story, wewould love to hear a little bit
about what you're up to thesedays personally and

(01:44):
professionally.
And something I definitely wantyou to touch on is I know you
love CrossFit.
So tell us what you're doingand please share Share with us.

Speaker 02 (01:56):
It's lots of yard work, just getting grass to grow
and doing a lot of outsidestuff.
Just happy to be outside andenjoy being outside and enjoy
working.
Work has been great, differenttime of year, but it's still
always a job to do at work, andso that doesn't let up.
And then, of course, CrossFit.
I can't not talk aboutCrossFit, you know, how we are.
And so, yeah, we just finishedanother qualifier for a

(02:19):
competition in the fall andqualified for that, so looking
forward to a competition in thefall.

Speaker 00 (02:23):
Well, you have to travel

Speaker 02 (02:23):
for that competition?
That one is in Indiana.

Speaker 01 (02:27):
I'm amazed.
You're still young, but noteverybody your age is doing
CrossFit.
And I know you've been at thisfor a long time, and it's an
absolute passion of yours.

Speaker 02 (02:39):
It's been good for me.
It's been healthy to...
the discipline and the, yeah,just working hard at something.
Fortunately, I am not young,but fortunately they have age
groups.
And so I can, I can competeagainst people my own age.
I don't have to compete againstthe kids because I can't keep
up with them.
So.

Speaker 01 (02:54):
Now, don't be humble.
Tell us about any awards inCrossFit or any claim to fames
or pull-ups.
What is your favorite part

Speaker 02 (03:06):
of CrossFit?
I like gymnastics, so hangingfrom the pull-up bar.
I enjoy that kind of thing.
How about the Memorial DayMurph?
Yeah, we did the Murph.
So the Murph is running,pull-ups, push-ups and air
squats and a whole bunch ofeverything.
And so, yeah, we did it.
It was a lot of fun.
Is it like a time thing?
You just do it.
Yeah, you do it at your ownpace.
It took me 40 some minutes.
But yeah, it's always a funworkout.
So run a mile, do a bunch ofstuff, run another mile.

(03:28):
It's good time.
Good community.

Speaker 01 (03:30):
Dr.
Scott, before we began and hearyour story, I want to tell you
and I want to tell the listenerssomething that didn't take me
long at all to think about.
When I think about you, andagain, our family knowing you
for 20 plus years, if someonecame up to me and said, what are
two words that you would use todescribe Dr.

(03:52):
Scott Abrams?
Immediately, I would say humbleand likable.
Humble and likable.
Thank you so much.
Harris, I'd be hard-pressed tofind someone that doesn't like

(04:23):
Dr.
Scott Abrams.
And so I mean that.
I want you to receive thosewords, and it's something that
the community and myself and ourfamily has really admired in
you.
The next thing that I want tosay before we hear your story is
this.
We're mindful that we know ofpeople firsthand that have lost

(04:47):
their lives to opioid addiction.
And our sincere sympathy andour hearts go out to those
families near and far.
We know of people right here inour own community And of
course, plenty of people acrossthe world.

(05:07):
And our goal with this storytoday is to inspire, to educate,
to encourage, and to helppeople.
And so thank you so much foragreeing to share with us.
It means the world to thelisteners, and you're making a
difference in the lives ofothers.
Harris, before we hear Dr.

(05:29):
Scott's story, is thereanything that you'd like to add?

Speaker 00 (05:32):
No, I'm just really excited to hear the story.
And like you said, inspirepeople and educate people.
Would you share your remarkablestory with us?

Speaker 02 (05:43):
Thanks.
Well, you're very kind.
You're making me blush.
But thanks for having me.
This is a great opportunity.
So you just want to hear thestory?

Speaker 01 (05:51):
Please.
And we'd like you to actuallygo into great detail, share
whatever you're comfortablesharing.
And we'd like you to start fromwhen you were a little boy and
the home that you grew up in andjust give us context from the
very beginning.

Speaker 02 (06:07):
All right.
I ask any questions you want.
I'm an open book.
I'll try not to go into toodeep a detail.
Grew up in a small town inSouth Dakota.
My father's a pastor.
My parents were loving.
Great home.
Great home life, small town.
I can't think of a more idyllicchildhood.
I mean, nobody's perfect, but Ihad it pretty good.
And so I didn't have a lot ofchildhood trauma.

(06:31):
Terrible things happened to me.
grew up in church, and so Ialways believed in God.
I don't remember not believingin God.
My faith has always been a partof me.
Now, what that's meant hascertainly evolved over time.
And I think growing up in thatenvironment is good, and I'm
thankful for it, but at the sametime, you have a little bit of
a skewed view of the world.
I remember really understandingthat anybody who struggled with

(06:54):
Drugs or alcohol were, like,really bad people, right?
Like, I remember seeing a guyin our church that was smoking
one time downtown, and I waslike, I thought he was going to
hell, you know?
And just...
So that was my mindset, justthat anybody that struggles...
And so anybody that struggles,not a Christian, and anybody
that's a Christian doesn't havestruggles.
And my parents were...
I mean, I'm sure they weren'tperfect, right?

(07:14):
But in my mind, they didn'thave any struggles.
And so that was really mymindset.
Then growing up...
And I was a good kid.
I didn't get in trouble.
I didn't, you know, do a lot ofcrazy stuff.
But I certainly...
recognized that there was a lotof stuff in life that I wanted
to experience that like Goddidn't want me to do.
And so God became this kind of,um, like a killjoy, like he's
taken away all the fun stuff inlife, you know, like I want to

(07:35):
do all this stuff and I can't,but if I have a boring life here
on earth, I guess I'll get tohave a good time in heaven, you
know?
And so that was, that was kindof this, this view of faith that
I had.
And so, uh, went off to collegeand, uh, So part of the
evangelical background, ofcourse, is we very much believe
in the forgiveness of Christ.
And so pretty quickly put twoand two together that, you know,

(07:58):
I could do what I wanted andjust ask for forgiveness later,
you know?
And so that's my mindset goingoff to college.
And so go off to college and dosome of those things I wanted
and then, you know, feel guiltyand ask forgiveness later.
And it wasn't terriblydestructive at that point.
And then I hit medical schooland I had to have a thyroid
surgery.
And...

(08:18):
had opioids for the first time,had hydrocodone in, and had had
alcohol, had, you know, had hadtobacco, but hadn't had
opioids.
And all of a sudden, it was,euphoric is the best way to
describe it.
And I think everybody has, thisis, everybody has their
struggle.
And my wife has had surgery andhad opioids, and she's like,

(08:42):
that's gross.
I don't like that feeling.
I'm like, what is wrong withyou?
This is amazing.
And at that point, first hadopioids and just, was in love
and absolutely knew that Iwanted more.
Now, I didn't have access atthat point, and so it wasn't a
problem.
And of course, I mean,remember, I can't be addicted
because I'm a Christian.
Like, Christians don't getaddicted, right?

(09:03):
I mean, that was my mindset.
And so no clue that I had thatpotential inside of me.
And so I didn't have access atthat point, but then went off to
residency.
So that was my last year ofmedical school.
Went off to residency, and...
Uh, got my license and now myfriends have licenses.
And this was back in the daywhen, uh, we treated pain
aggressively and opioids didn'thurt people and they didn't make

(09:23):
people addicted if you'regiving it for pain.
And I, I always had somereason, you know, I always had
some injury, lots of kneesurgeries and pains and aches
and whatever.
And so had access.
And so, so started, uh, uh,being exposing myself, right?
Like, so our brain wantssomething.
We repeat the, if we can, werepeat the experience.
And so, and that's howaddiction develops, right?
We repeat a pleasurableexperience often enough and then

(09:45):
it rewires the pathways in ourbrain.
And now, soon I can't not actthis way.
So that was...
residency.
Last year, medical schoolresidency, that was the
beginning of things.
And then that grew slowly over15 years.
And a couple of times in there,I realized I needed to confront
this, was confronted with myown behavior by some others, and

(10:07):
then did outpatient treatment acouple of times.
And then 2014, so this is 15years into it, it's from 99 to
2014.
2014, I'd worked on gettingsober, but my idea of My idea of
sobriety was stop using drugsso that other people notice.

(10:28):
And so, you know, just like Ican always go back and just
have, you know, and it's likethe alcoholic that wants to, you
know, just have one, you know.
And so I always kind of thoughtthat I could just stop acting,
stop addictive behavior, butstill use the drug.
And so 2014, I...
had kind of cut my own legs outfrom under me because everybody

(10:52):
around me knew they shouldn'tprescribe for me because I had a
problem.
And so that was, that was thereal disaster was I, I, I
relapsed, found some pills, tookthem.
And my, I remember, I rememberholding the pills in my hand,
hearing God telling me, don't,don't do this.
This, this is, this will endbadly.
And I remember telling Godit's, I can get away with it.

(11:13):
My wife won't know.
You have to forgive metomorrow.
I'll just ask forgiveness andit'll be fine.
And I took the pills and a bombwent off in my brain.
And that was it.
I was, this is amazing.
I'm not stopping.
I don't know why I ever quit.
I'm going to get more.
And I didn't have any place toget more.
And so got my own pen, got myown prescribing pad.
And so that was the disaster.

(11:35):
And so for the next few months,that was my pattern of behavior
was just to get my own pills.
And of course, I mean...
This is the stupidity of it.
And this is the disease ofaddiction, what it does to your
brain.
I mean, nobody in their rightmind, like looking back, I'm
embarrassed to say it, right?
Because nobody in their rightmind would think, A, that that's
a good idea, or B, that youcould get away with it.

(11:55):
But it didn't matter at thatpoint.
I mean, I knew my career wouldbe over.
I knew my marriage would beover.
I knew all the consequences,but I told myself I could get
away with it.
And I did not.
And so a few months later, thiswas September of that year,
September of 2014, I lifeexploded.
And do you want me to tell youthat story?

Speaker 01 (12:16):
Please.
We want to hear that in great

Speaker 02 (12:20):
detail.
This is the gory, painful part.
I'll probably cry.
But I knew, and I even prayed.
I knew I was, first of all, inaddiction, you hate yourself.
You lie to yourself so much.
You spend so much time Lying toyour loved ones, hiding what

(12:40):
you're doing, laying in bedawake at night worried that
somebody's going to find out.
And so so much anxiety and somuch inner turmoil and so much
self-hatred.
I don't like who I'm seeing inthe mirror.
I couldn't look at God becauseI don't want to talk to God.
I mean, you know, I don't wanthim shining a light on my shame
and my guilt.
And so...
was carrying all that andfinally just went to God and

(13:03):
said, God, I do whatever ittakes to make me stop, which is
a dangerous prayer.
That's a, that's a dangerousprayer.
Like do whatever it takes tomake me stop.
And it wasn't a week later.
And my boss called me and said,you need to come to work and
talk.
And I, I absolutely knew atthat point it was over.
And, uh, uh, uh, riding todriving to town, uh, praying,
God, get me out of this.
God, get me out of this.

(13:24):
God, if you get me out of this,I will go be a missionary in
Africa.
Africa needs somebody who'saddicted to drugs.
That was helpful at that point.
But bargaining with God, justpraying that he would get me
out.
I had prayed while I wasusing...
When I say I couldn't look atGod, I couldn't really...

(13:48):
express any faith.
I just kept praying, God, takethis away from me.
God, take my addiction away.
So I did pray during that time,but the only prayer really was,
God, take this from me.
And every time I felt Godtelling me, and I never heard
God talk out loud, but I alwaysfelt God telling me, okay, you
really want to be done withdrugs?
Tell your wife.
Go to treatment.
Tell your boss.
And I'm like, I'm not doing anyof that stuff.

(14:10):
That's, that's crazy.
I'm not doing that.
That's so painful.
I'm not, I'm not, you know, andso if you're not willing to do
what it takes to follow me andbe obedient to me and, you know,
and so I just want, my idea offaith was really just, you take
it, you take it, just change,just magically fix me.
And, and so finally came tothat point where God, do
whatever it takes, do whateverit takes to me to, to get me
there.
And of course that was, thatwas, that was the, horrific

(14:33):
consequences.
So I was confronted by mybehavior, and then very quickly
was out of a job.
I'd been working in the ER for12 years at that point, and they
didn't fire me, but theyallowed me to quit, but that's a
generous way of saying theyfired me.
And then I had to go home andtell my wife, who did not see it
coming.
She's on her way out the doorto Bible study, and I had to go

(14:55):
home and tell my wife, sit down,we need to talk.
I've ruined our lives.
And of course, she...
knew at that point exactly whatI meant.
She knew, uh, she hadn't seenit coming, but she knew what I
meant.
And, and, uh, that was, thatwas just absolute rock bottom.
Right.
So that was the worst day of mylife.
And I'm sure the worst day ofher life.

(15:15):
And, um, that was it.
I was out of a job.
My career was probably over,uh, my marriage.
You know, she had saidpreviously, if you do this
again, we're done.
And so she's, we're done, youknow, and I can't put my kids
through this and I won't exposethem, you know, our kids to
this.
And, and so, uh, Yeah.
If I had any hope of turninganything around, I had to figure

(15:37):
out how to get sober now.
And so off to treatment.
So off to treatment at thatpoint and try to put life back
together.

Speaker 01 (15:45):
Dr.
Scott, I'm going to stop youand ask you a couple of
questions before we talk abouttreatment.
But was Barb the hardest personto tell?

Speaker 02 (15:55):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, by far.
Yeah, that was...
And I mean...
I lied so many times.
It's like, you know, butthere's no, there's no, there's
no, you can't lie out of this.
You can't, there's no way.
Right.
I lost my job.
It's like, she's not, she's notgoing to know.
So I just, I mean, I had to gohome and tell her and that was
the absolute worst.
And of course, um, yeah, Imean, we hurt the ones we love

(16:19):
the most.
Right.
And so, uh, you know, that was,um, I heard a lot of people,
uh, but that, That's the worst.
And I can say today that I'mthankful for where my addiction
brought me.
But every time I say that, Ithink back to that day.
Here's where I cry.
I'm not thankful for what I didto her.
So that was terrible.
Trust was betrayed.

(16:40):
Her marriage is over.
Embarrassment.
My name was in the paper.
It was horrific.

Speaker 00 (16:48):
You mentioned forgiveness at the beginning and
kind of having the cycle as ayoung Christian of just
rebelling and then seekingforgiveness.
And then fast forward 15 yearslater and through your journey
now, how has your perception offorgiveness changed and how does
God work?
And a forgiving God stillbelieving that, but seeing it

(17:09):
differently.

Speaker 02 (17:09):
Yeah, I think there's...
This is a theologicaldiscussion.
I don't want to say there'slevels of forgiveness, but I
believe that as I've acceptedChrist as my Savior, I'm going
to heaven, right?
I don't think that any sin Icommit today or tomorrow is
going to stop that, right?
But my relationship with God isa relationship, and I can
distance ourselves, and I canput stuff between us.

(17:30):
And that doesn't mean Hedoesn't love me.
It doesn't mean I'm notforgiven eternally.
But I think with anyrelationship, if I...
If I do something horrible toyou today and say, I'm sorry.
And then I do the same thingtomorrow and say, I'm sorry.
And I do the same thing again.
I'm sorry.
Will you forgive me?
Well, what does that mean?
It just means that you're notreally sorry.
That's not repentance.
And so I think forgiveness, thething I didn't understand

(17:53):
before, is it really requiresrepentance, like turning around.
Like, what am I going to do tostop this behavior?
And so that's how I look at ittoday is that I find myself
doing that thing that I have toask God forgiveness for.
Okay.
Do I really mean it?
And if I really mean it, am Iwilling to do what it takes to
stop?
And that's painful, often, toactually change behavior.
It's really hard sometimes.
But am I willing to cut thatthing out of my life?

Speaker 01 (18:17):
Speaking of forgiveness, you're married to a
rock star wife.
And that gift has gone bothways, Dr.
Scott.
You have also been a rock star,even through the drugs.
And we couldn't be more proudof...
How you've turned this paininto tremendous purpose and you

(18:40):
have amazing kids.
We celebrate your family andextremely proud of the purpose
that you've all put and decidedto stick together for God and
for the kingdom and thecommunity, and we sincerely
could not be more proud of you,your beautiful wife, and the

(19:01):
amazing kids that you have.
I want to go back to that dayin September in 2014.
You had mentioned that you hadhated yourself within the drugs.
You knew the day was coming,but when you were hot that day,
so to speak, or that pinnacleday that you were called into

(19:27):
work, you came home and you toldBarb, was there also a sense of
relief that day?
Like, oh my goodness,eventually you knew the day was
coming.
Did you, as painful as that daywas, we can't imagine, was
there relief that day already oror not yet, knowing that the

(19:52):
secret was out and the brickswere falling off, so to speak?

Speaker 02 (19:58):
Yeah, I think immediately, no relief.
Immediately, it's just abjectterror.
This is unbelievable.
The thing that I...
I mean, it's so weird to thinkabout because I knew it would
happen, but at the same timekind of thought I could get away
with it before that.
And then, no, this ishappening.
And so initially I just had toshare.
Within a few days, though, onceyou've been through the most

(20:22):
painful hurdles, I think, Ithink really once I told my
wife, I think once I told her,then I was able to start
thinking, okay, I can now...
Can I get rid of this?
Yeah.
I can get sober.
Yeah.
And, and, and that was, thatwas, there was some comfort
there and there was some reliefthere, like finally, cause I
prayed for this, right?
I got to do whatever it takes.
And then you just didn't reallythink about like how bad it

(20:43):
could be.
Cause it was bad, you know, itwas terrible.
And so, but yeah, there, withina couple of days, there was
some, some, some, some smallrelief that, that it was, the
drug use was over.
The pain was just beginning, orI should say the consequences
were just beginning.
Yeah, so that was, yeah, that'sa little of both.

(21:04):
Tremendous shame and guilt,though, at that point, right?
Like, I mean, everybody knows,and you just, you know, want to
hide from the world, and youcan't.
I mean, I tried, but yeah, justtremendous shame and guilt.
But yeah, a little bit ofrelief.

Speaker 01 (21:16):
Dr.
Scott, there's something I wantto tell you from the bottom of
my heart.
I am a believer that all of oursins are the same in the eyes
of God.
The consequences might bedifferent, but our sins are the
same.
I am no better than you.
Harris is no better than you.
And I hope you have forgivenyourself.

(21:38):
I hope you know that by theblood of Jesus, you've been
washed clean.
And again, you've turned thistremendous pain into a beautiful
purpose and story.
Have you, I hope you'veforgiven yourself.

Speaker 02 (21:56):
Yeah, so in getting sober, and then being honest
about it, like I hadn't beenable to be honest about it ever
before, about my drug use, butin being honest and open about
it, and your name's in thepaper, so that was another bad
day, by the way, naming thepaper, but it was really
liberating.
Once everybody knows, everybodyknows, and I can talk about it.
And in doing so, recognize thateverybody's got their thing,
right?
So, I mean, everybody's gotsome struggle, because people

(22:17):
would start coming to me andtalking to me, like, I struggle
too, I want you to know this.
And that was really helpful,like I'm not, because you feel
like the worst one, I'm theworst person in the world, you
know, and there, there was that,I mean, I don't know if God can
forgive this.
There was that, you know, fordays or weeks maybe.
And even into treatment sittingthere going, I don't know if
God can forgive this.
You know, I'm just, I'm justgoing to relapse and keep using
and, and, and, and came toaccept that.

(22:38):
And I, and, and after that, Idon't think I've ever struggled
with the concept that sincethen, uh, that God has forgiven
me.
Uh, but still, like you said,consequences are different and
the consequences like, um, Andyou see this treatment.
Day one, a guy's destroyed hislife and God's forgiven him.
And then suddenly he doesn'tcare in the world.
He just destroyed your family.

(22:59):
Yeah, but God forgave me.
I struggled with that becausemy life was still a mess and my
wife was still really hurt.
So yes, God forgave me and Icould find joy in that, but I
still got to deal with theconsequences.
And so, yeah, I...
Certainly for me, forgivingmyself and letting go of the
shame and guilt, that was a longprocess.
That did not happen.
That was not immediate.

(23:19):
That was as I have...
I don't know how to say itright.
proven to my wife that this isreal, that my recovery is real,
as she begins to accept that,and I can't undo the damage, but
as she begins to forgive me andearn trust back, that's how I
dealt with the shame and theguilt, and that's how I forgave
myself, was in, it was in,because I couldn't, I couldn't,

(23:41):
I couldn't let myself off thehook, I felt like that, you know
what I mean, and so I neverstruggled, God forgive me,
that's, you know, coming backto, you know, and, and, The love
of God and the new life issomething I wake up every day,
and that's the first thought inmy mind, is thank you, God, for
your love for me, and thank youfor forgiveness, and thank you
for the new life.
That's the first thought, andthat's a beautiful thought, and

(24:02):
I just wake up so grateful forthat.
It's honestly the first thing Isay every day.
A little later in my prayer, Ithank God for Barb.
Thank you for my wife, and sothank you for her forgiveness
and for restoration of trust andrestoration for our family,
because he's brought all thatback together.
And so, yeah, forgiveness ofGod came pretty early.
I think the rest took quite awhile to get there.
So

Speaker 00 (24:24):
I've been reading your blog for some time.
I've heard you speak before.
And you talk quite a bit abouthow you put yourself as the king
of your life during that timeand kind of growing up in that.
And I think that's somethingthat resonates strongly with me
and with people of mygeneration.
And then just earlier thisweek, I was reading in 1 Samuel.
And the Israelites aredemanding God for a king, and

(24:48):
that's when he anoints Saul, andhe promises that it's really
not going to go well for thembecause Jesus was their king—or
not Jesus at the time, but Godwas their king, and he was going
to send his son to be theirking— Just as a young person, is
there any practical ways thatyou stepped away from that or
spiritual ways that you steppedaway from really having yourself

(25:10):
and being so certain or just soused to yourself being the
king?

Speaker 02 (25:15):
Yeah.
I would say my greatest lifeproblem, not drugs.
That was a symptom of mygreatest life problem.
My greatest life problem is Ido what I want to do.
I'm my own God.
And that's...
It's not...
It's...
And most people understandthat, right?
It is a differentmanifestations.
Not everybody uses drugs, but Ido what I want to do.
And that's my life problem.
And that has been profoundlydestructive.

(25:37):
It's been really obviouslydestructive.
And so the challenge for me,even now, you know, I mean,
we're 10 plus years later inrecovery and I don't struggle
with drugs today, but I could,you know, that could come back.
But I do struggle today withwanting to do what I want to do.
You know, I want to beprideful.
I want to point life to me.
I want to do what I want to do.
And so I think that's, that'san, that will always be a

(25:58):
struggle.
Let's do what I want to do.
So, so for me, I pray thatprayer every day.
Thank God for the new life.
And then, and then that wholefirst half hour praying is I
have to point my life at Godbecause I make bad decisions
when I do what I want to do.
And I don't want to go back tothat life.
And so God, what, what do Ineed to work on today?
What do you want me to do?
And, and what, what needs tochange?

(26:19):
What, what, what did I do wellat yesterday?
What did I do bad at yesterday?
And so that's, that's, that's,I, and I, I think that's a, a
lot.
I don't say it.
It's hard work.
I think, you know, it's everyday.
So I'm going to do this therest of my life, but I don't
want to go back.
And so, you know, I've acceptedthat's what I have to do is
every day.
I got to get up and say, I, I,I might be sober, but I still

(26:42):
struggle with me, and I stillstruggle with unhealthy
appetites, and I still havepride and greed and selfishness
and lust, and I need to workevery day on these things.
And so I don't always get itright.
I'm certainly not far fromperfect.
And we were talking before, itonce frustrated me that I've
been sober for a couple yearsnow, and I still have all these
flaws I have to work on that aretruly nuts.

(27:03):
And then I realized that keepsme humble, and it keeps me
dependent on God.
And if I was made perfecttoday, I would be an arrogant
monster tomorrow.
And I'd be self-sufficient.
I wouldn't need God.
And so God allows me to stillhave need and to still be
dependent on him.
And that's a good thing.
And so as long as I see it thatway, I don't have to live
enslaved to those flaws, but Ican allow them to point me to

(27:24):
God every day.

Speaker 00 (27:25):
Wow.
That's really inspiring,especially as a young guy who
looks up to you and sees peoplein my life and myself and just
really struggling with that.
Yeah.
How can you do that just inyour daily life and be really
consistent with it and have likethe long-term outlook of this
is what I'm going to do for therest of my life because I don't

(27:46):
want to go back.

Speaker 02 (27:47):
Yeah, it used to drive me nuts that I had to,
like I have to work at not usingdrugs the rest of my life and I
just wouldn't do it.
You know, I'm just not doingthat.
I'm fine.
And now I'm okay with it.
I got my recovery meeting I goto once a week and if I work on
that the rest of my life, that'sokay.

Unknown (28:04):
I don't want to go back.

Speaker 01 (28:06):
I'll say to you, Dr.
Scott, and to the listeners,I'll put myself first on the
list that I often struggle withwhat I want to do.
And that's also one of my lifeproblems.
And I think as humans, that'sjust part of our humanity and
why we need Christ is we all,you know, we have to fight

(28:28):
against struggling with what wewant to do.
But what I'm so amazed at andso grateful for, when I think
back to that September day in2014, and I really think this is
a great encouragement to thelisteners, because your story is
applicable to all struggle.
And all of us struggle, and I'mnot equating some struggles to

(28:55):
the struggle you went through.
I think that is a verydifficult struggle.
But everyone in life struggles.
has struggles.
After that very difficult rockbottom day in September of 2014,
here's what I'm amazed at and Ithink is so inspiring for the
listeners.
You could have decided therewas a fork in the road, and you

(29:19):
could have decided to leave thecommunity, stay on drugs, not
fight for your marriage, notfight for your kids, not fight
to be able to be a practicingdoctor again, not fight for,
number one, to be the Christfollower that you are.
But that fork in the road...
you quickly decided, and thisis the Dr.

(29:41):
Scott Abrams that we've alwaysknown, and I'm thinking, I'm
equating it to CrossFit.
You are a never going to giveup, even when I hit rock bottom
guy.
And I love that you decided,you know what, I can be known
for how I respond or known forthe drugs.

(30:02):
And bring us back to eitherthat day that rock bottom hit or
days later or weeks later whenyou decided there's a fork in
the road.
And again, I can leave thecommunity.
I can stay on drugs.
I cannot fight for Barb and thekids.
Or I'm going to work as hard asI can to get healthy and then

(30:25):
to make a difference in thelives of others.
I'm making that sound easyright now in 2025, but Tell us
what that felt like.
What was going through yourmind and your humanness when you
had a choice to make?

Speaker 02 (30:41):
I knew before that day what a mountain of work it
was going to be to findrecovery.
And so that's why I wasunwilling to do it.
It was monumental.
I mean, it was, to me, I mean,it was changing everything about
my life.
And I did not want to do that.
And I certainly don't want toconfess or tell anybody.
And so I knew what...
And change is really painful.

(31:03):
And so I knew how hard it wasgoing to be.
And so I resisted it.
At that moment, though, and ithad to be made very clear to me,
like you said, you can havethis life or you can have this
life.
You can't have both.
And when confronted with that,I was like, okay, yeah, I want
that life.
I want my wife.
I want my kids.
I want sobriety.
I want my faith.
And if I can get my careerback.

(31:24):
I did bargain with God, by theway.
Because in treatment, I was...
I had it out with God.
I mean, just God, I asked youto change me a thousand times.
You didn't do it.
This is your fault.
And God reminded me, I told youto follow me.
I told you to obey.
You wouldn't really need to doit.
And I was like, okay, I will dowhatever it takes.
And that was the beginning ofchange.
I will do whatever it takes toleave behind the old life and

(31:47):
follow the new life.
And God said, okay, here we go.
I was like, wait, wait, wait.
One condition, I want my wifeback and I want my job back.
And God's like, no, that's not,that's not guaranteed.
And that was hard.
That was like, why am I doingthis?
He's like, you follow mebecause that's how you find the
new life.
And whatever that looks like,you find new life in me by

(32:07):
following me.
I don't promise you anythingexcept...
you'll be better than where youwere, you know?
And so, um, that, that was, youknow, I tried to bargain with
God and he said, no, just followme and see what happens.
And so at that point becamewilling to say, okay, I, okay, I
will, I will do whatever ittakes.
And for me, you know, the firststep was getting up early every
day to point my life at God andsay, how do I not follow this?

(32:29):
How do I follow him?
And so, um, yeah, that was,that was the choice.
And, and what, what am I goingto do?
I could, I could have left townand tried to do that.
I think I am grateful now that,that I stayed and, and, and
people around me.
I mean, people, people, youfeel like everybody's looking at
you and everybody hates you andeverybody's looking down on
you.
People were so supportive.
I mean, people were like, wewere cheering for you.

(32:51):
We want to help you.
And, and, uh, professionally Ihad other physicians say, we are
going to, we're going to makethis work, come work with us.
And, um, that was life-saving,right?
I mean, I still think of RayMalama who called me up and
said, come work with us, youknow, and, and thank that guy
for, you know, saving my career.
And so, um, But yeah, I couldhave run.

(33:11):
I could have just said, forgetit.
But yeah, I was so sick of theold life.
And so I want to do the newone.
And so I got to do whatever ittakes to get there.

Speaker 01 (33:24):
Tell us about the first day in treatment.
What did that feel like?
What was going through yourmind?

Speaker 02 (33:30):
Nobody wants to go to treatment, by the way.
Treatment's terrible.
I mean, the only one who wantsto go to treatment is the one
who...
gets out of jail to go totreatment.
Like if I can get out of aworse situation to go to
treatment, I'll go, butotherwise nobody wants to go to
treatment.
And so I didn't want to go totreatment.
Uh, and I, I, I tried to findthe easiest, shortest, most, um,

(33:51):
comfortable treatment I could.
And I found one that was like21 days and I was like, I can do
21 days.
And so I told Bob, I'm going togo to this treatment and my
wife and she, she said, that'sfine.
When you're done, you're goingto go to teen challenge.
And I don't know if you knowwhat Minnesota Adult and Teen
Challenge is, but it's an urbanprogram not known for being
particularly easy andcomfortable.

(34:12):
And so I was, fine, I'll go.
And I had other wise peoplearound me saying, go to
Minnesota Adult and TeenChallenge.
And so I went.
It is an urban program.
And on day one, I realized thatthere were people who were out
of jail, just out of jail, tocome there.
People who have been in jail,people who've done terrible

(34:33):
things, drug dealers.
And I don't belong here.
This was a mistake.
I shouldn't have come here.
And by day two or three, it'slike, you know what?
This is just apparently thehumbling I needed because...
The people are different, butthe problem's the same.
Same behaviors.
Not the specifics, but the samepatterns.
I mean, just the addictivebehavior.

(34:54):
The thing I keep doing, despitethe fact that it's caused me a
lot of pain, that was like allof us.
And just keep doing the samestupid thing.
And so by day three, it waslike, yeah, I belong here.
And I won't say treatment wasfun.
I won't...
I'll never say I enjoyed it,but I needed it.
And it was good for me.
And I found transformationthere.

(35:16):
So...
It was good, but I don't everwant to go back.

Speaker 01 (35:21):
You said, Dr.
Scott, that there was a day intreatment that you just had it
out with God.
And you told yourself, I'mguessing, you told yourself, I'm
at the end of myself.
And was that the day that youfelt hope?
Like, I'm going to lick thisfor real.

(35:43):
I am...
there's nowhere but up and I'mgoing to lick this.
Yeah.

Speaker 02 (35:50):
Yeah.
I think week one, probablythere was a younger guy that
came up to me and he said, I'mon my 13th treatment.
And I was on my thirdoutpatient treatment twice
before that.
And feeling the same way, youknow, and he was just, he was in
despair.
Just, I can't change.

(36:11):
Can God forgive this?
And I was in the same place.
And so I was like, I don'tknow.
I feel the same way.
I don't know if I'll ever, willI keep relapsing forever?
I don't know.
And so then maybe a week laterit was, I don't know the exact
date, but yeah, just absolutelyhad, I mean, just like knocked
down, dried out with God, justlike, God, I'm so sick of this.
And finally, and that was in mymind, I remember saying, I will

(36:33):
do whatever it takes.
You tell me and I'll do it.
And that was such a light bulbmoment.
It was just like, okay.

Speaker 00 (36:42):
So that was the defining moment between
treatment one and two andtreatment three was the...

Speaker 02 (36:48):
Yeah, being willing to be obedient, right?
I mean, before it was always onmy terms.
I will do this on my terms andyou fix me.
You just magically fix me andI'm not doing anything.
I'm not making any sacrifices.
I'm not telling anybody.
I'm not talking to anybody.
And all my rules, right?
And again, the problem isn'tdrugs.
The problem is do it my way, doit my way, do it my way.

(37:10):
And so that was the point atwhich okay, I'll do what you
say.
You tell me to jump and lightmy hair on fire.
I'm doing it, you know?
And that was like, just, yeah,that was like, okay, this is,
this is what I have to do.
And it's going to be different.
And, and I came home knowing,um, yeah, it's, I'm, I'm, I

(37:30):
found recovery.
I found faith.
I found, I found, I found, uh,yeah, I found my faith in
recovery and my life is going tobe different and I'm not going
back.
Um, not, not saying I can't goback.
Cause I know I could, if Istopped, um, doing the things it
takes to keep my life pointedat God.
Now, uh, that, that the flipside of that, it's, it's, I
think a little funny now.
Um, I knew things weredifferent.

(37:52):
Like I was so convinced in mymind and I'm like, Barb, I'm
different.
I mean, I'm a new, I'm a newman, you know?
And, and of course, 30 days of,of, of recovery of treatment
does not undo 15 years of, youknow, lies and, and deception
and drug use.
And so, uh, that was, that was,uh, that was a realization that
they're like, okay, I might bethere, but Barb's not quite a

(38:14):
believer in this yet.
So we weren't,

Speaker 00 (38:17):
we weren't quite back at.
You've mentioned quite a fewtimes hearing God's voice
speaking to you.
What are your ways of listeningto God's voice?

Speaker 02 (38:26):
Yeah, I gotta be careful.
I've never heard an audiblevoice.
But I think the, He speaksthrough other people.
So especially, you know, if yousurround yourself with people
that are following God andthey're trying to speak into
your life, like, listen to that,right?

(38:46):
So I would have to say thatwhen I heard that thing, I was
sitting outside under the trees.
When I heard God speaking tome, I wasn't audible again.
I mean, that was things peoplehad been saying around me in
treatment, right?
These were other godly men whowere speaking into my life,
telling me these things.
And so it wasn't like this...
You know, it wasn't like thefirst time it hurt.
It was hurt from all around me.

(39:06):
And so, you know, but I thinkone of the greatest promises in
scripture is draw near to me andI will draw near to you.
God wants this intense.
intensely personal relationshipwith us.
And he's, my father-in-law usedto say before he passed away,
he used to say, the first thingyou need to know about God is
he's a person and you can knowhim.
And you can know him as well asanybody else, better.

(39:27):
And so you have to invest inthat relationship.
And so I had, at that point,been investing in that
relationship so much that Ithink you talk a lot, but you
begin to listen too, right?
And so...
It's not an audible voice, butit's like, I know that's God
telling me to do this thing.
And I think, you know, I mean,sometimes you can convince
yourself, like, God says crazystuff.
Like, you want something badlyenough that you convince

(39:51):
yourself God wants that too.
God told me to, you know, marrythis girl.
Well, that's just you wantingto marry the girl, you know.
So I think often, you know,just...
like checking the thing youthink God is telling you against
like what you know to be true,right?
Like the Bible says this, but Ithink God says this completely
opposite.
That's not, that's not God.
That's your own appetite andmasquerading as God or, or, you

(40:13):
know, and so, yeah, that's atough one.
Um, I have no doubt that, thatGod was telling me this, but I
can't tell you that I heard hisvoice.
I just knew that he was, I wasasking a question and I've been
seeking God and I've beendesperately, uh, pursuing the
relationship and I began to hearback, so.

Speaker 00 (40:32):
I think that's something that people sometimes
struggle with is they ask Godquestions, but then they fail to
listen because they're notsurrounding themselves with the
community that is pushing themin the direction that God wants
them to go.

Speaker 02 (40:43):
Yeah, and I think like if we have, you know, a
relationship and I do nothingbut ignore you and do things
that are hurtful to you, like,hey, can you help me out?
You're like...
I wonder why Harris doesn'ttalk to me or why he doesn't
help me out.
Well, you know, and it's notthat God's vindictive, but he's,
you know, draw near to me andI'll draw near to you.

(41:05):
But if you, you know, if youput all this stuff between us
and you do all this stuff that Itell you not to, it's going to
hurt.
And I'm going to let you, Imean, the greatest thing God did
to change me was let me hurt,you know, let me suffer
consequences.
And so, I mean, yeah, I thinkwe have this expectation that,
well, I did.
God's just there to get me outof trouble, you know.

(41:25):
And he's like, no, it's goingto hurt.
And in that hurt, he didn'tleave me alone.
He loved me, forgave me, hismercy, his grace, but it took
seeking him to restore thatrelationship.

Speaker 01 (41:38):
As a Christ follower, it's so special and
gives me goosebumps when you saythat to listen to the Lord and
he said, a new life starts withme.
It's going to be my way.
And you listened and that'swhat you did.
What would you say to thelisteners that are contemplating

(42:03):
treatment?
What, for the loved ones orlisteners, speak more to
treatment and what that did foryou?
Sure.

Speaker 02 (42:13):
So I do a lot of addiction medicine now, which
means I interact almost dailywith those who are struggling
with addiction.
And a lot of them needtreatment and nobody wants to
go.
Um, unless again, unless you'rein jail and I do work in jail,
I also work in jail.
And so that's, that's a littleeasier.
And honestly, I kind of likeworking in jail cause nobody

(42:33):
thinks they're perfect in jail.
And so it's, it's a lot easierto like, you need to change your
life.
Yeah, I know.
You know?
And so, but, um, the personwho, uh, like is in the
situation I was like, I don'twant to go to treatment.
Uh, I, I got a job.
I got my job to do.
I got my family.
I can't just walk away fromthose things.
And, um, Looking back, I mean,I said those exact same things.
And looking back, it'slaughable because I used my job

(42:54):
and my family as an excuse notto go.
Oh, that went away.
You know, God took those thingsaway.
And so, I mean, and I say it topeople now.
It's like, you know, you can'tstop.
You want to stop drinking.
You can't stop drinking.
And you say you won't go totreatment because of your job.
Keep drinking.
Find out what happens.
You know, and that happens allthe time.
You know, and so...
are you willing to do whateverit takes?
And I had that, this is manypatients I've met.

(43:17):
I will do whatever it takes tostop.
Okay, let's go to treatmenttoday.
No, not doing that.
Oh, you didn't really meanyou'd do anything.
You just wish it'd be easy.
And so I always say stoppingany behavior is not easy.
Stopping any behavior requiressacrifice and radical change.
And radical change meansdisrupting your life.
And that's why treatment ishelpful because it disrupts your

(43:37):
life, but nobody wants to doit.
So yeah, one of my favoritequestions to and nobody likes
it, is what would it look liketo cut that thing out of your
life?
Like, what would that look liketo absolutely cut it out of
your life?
And you start thinking about,okay, like say pornography is my
struggle.
What would it look like to cutoff access to the internet or

(44:00):
your smartphone?
That's a lot.
And so that's what the oneaddicted to drugs is looking at,
is what would it take?
It might take treatment, whichis really disruptive.
And so I ask that a lot, isjust think about what it would
take, and then are you willingto do it?
And if you're not, you'reprobably not ready.

Speaker 00 (44:19):
So it's been 10 years since you went through
recovery, through treatment, andnow you're kind of surrounded
in that community still.
How has the techniques changedor improved?
Or what is the future outlookon medical treatment or any kind
of treatment?
Yeah, I think

Speaker 02 (44:39):
I found recovery in what we would call Minnesota
model, which is absence-based,12-step, higher power, Minnesota
Adult and Teen Challenge.
I knew my higher power was God.
And I still very much believein that.
I think the 12 steps are takenstraight out of the Bible, and I

(45:00):
know who my God is, so I'm notworried about staying in higher
power.
And I very much, when I can,point people to God.
I think the part that Ididn't...
wasn't really aware of backthen was kind of medication
assisted treatment.
Like there are medications thatcan help with this.
And I think there's a wholediscussion there as, you know,
our medication is somehowfaithless.
And so that's, that's a wholedifferent topic, but yeah, I

(45:23):
think my view has changed a lotover the last 10 years in that
we, we now, now medications aremuch more readily available and
much more accepted and muchmore, and we've, we've, we know,
we've known from evidence that,that they can help.
And so that's as, as, asbecoming an addiction medicine,
uh, physician, I've had to...

(45:44):
Yeah, it's just been new.
It's just been different.
So this has become part of mypractice.
It doesn't take away from theold.
I don't think it replaces theold.
I think using all the tools wehave, I think that's treatment,
12-step programs, recoverymeetings, getting involved in
your church.
Are there medications that canhelp with cravings?
Do we need to address yourmental health?
And might that involvecounseling and medication?

(46:06):
Sure.
And so I think there's just alot of things that I didn't know
about or think about back then.

Speaker 01 (46:13):
Dr.
Scott, you have said thatyou've kept a picture to remind
you of the old days that youwould never want to go back to.
About 17 years ago, give ortake, you ran a marathon with
Harris's dad, my husband, Jamie.
And I don't bring this up tomake you feel bad.

(46:34):
I bring it up for a couplereasons.
You ran a marathon.
None of us knew.
Barb and I, the kids, were allthere cheering you and Jamie on
and the Mickelson Trail Marathonin the Black Hills.
And Not in a million yearswould I have ever thought at

(46:55):
that time that you werestruggling with drugs.
Jamie didn't know it.
I didn't know it.
And what I want you to speak tois you've kept a picture,
you've said to us before, that'sreminded you of that old life
that you've never would want togo back to and how you felt the

(47:15):
day on that marathon.
But it reminds us and we'rePart of the reason for the
podcast is education andlearning and being an
encouragement to the community.
There is people around us thatwe have no idea.
Professional people, neighborpeople, older people, younger

(47:36):
people.
And I don't know how big of aproblem opioid addiction is.
But I think...
No matter where we are in thisworld, it would surprise us,
people that are struggling withthis.
So speak to the marathon withJamie.
What did you feel that day?
What was it like to be ondrugs?

(47:57):
What did that day feel like?
And then talk about howprevalent this problem is or
isn't.
for our learning purposes.

Speaker 02 (48:08):
Yeah.
There's so many things there totalk about.
That was a terrible day.
It was a horrible marathon.
I'd run a lot of marathons.
I mean, and that was, that'sgotta be the worst.
I vomited from 13 miles to 26miles.
I mean, like every time I triedto drink water, I vomited.
And the reason was, is I took abunch of opioids and I was not,
and I was, I wasn't in shape.

(48:29):
I mean, so, so in my drug use,it's a, it's a, surrendering to
your appetite problem and thatdidn't just mean drugs it meant
food and so i was i was wayoverweight i hadn't trained um i
was not i mean i had trainedsome with your husband but it
was not adequate and i was wayoverweight not in shape and so i
had no business being on the onthe trail in the first place um

(48:51):
and then of course throw drugson top of that and so vomiting
for the last two hours it wasterrible i don't know why i
finished um And

Speaker 01 (49:00):
by the way, I know you beat Jamie.

Speaker 02 (49:02):
No, he was way ahead of me.
He was way

Speaker 01 (49:05):
ahead of me.
Bless Jamie's heart.
He was

Speaker 02 (49:07):
way ahead

Speaker 01 (49:08):
of me.
Was he?
Oh, that surprises me.
Sorry, Jamie.
Yeah, I don't

Speaker 02 (49:11):
think I beat anyone that day.
Yeah, that was a terrible day.
And you said it.
I had no idea.
I had no idea you werestruggling with that.
And that's what we do, right?
We don't want people to knowour...
deepest darkest garbage youknow so we hide it we lie and we
hide it and and it isolates usand nobody um everybody else

(49:32):
looks perfect you think rightright like in your mind like
nobody else is struggling withthis why do i struggle with this
and and i mean we think thatabout so many things you know um
and if if if somebody could seein my mind they'd be horrified
you know and and so we all haveour stuff and nobody you know
nobody knows unless we talkabout it um So yeah, I had
hidden it and that was aterrible day.

(49:53):
And what was the otherquestion?
Oh, people.
So yeah, so you'd be surprisedpeople around you.
Yeah, I think...
Finding recovery, that wasshocking to me, how many people
would come up and say, I'mstruggling with this.
And it wasn't drugs.
It was other things.
It was pornography or gamblingor even shopping, which I didn't
realize was a thing, tostruggle with shopping.

(50:14):
But, yeah, everybody's gottheir own thing, but you don't
know it.
Because, I mean, we all havethe idea of the addict or the
addicted is the personunderneath the bridge, like
homeless, right?
And so...
That's not what it looks likenecessarily.
And so, yeah, it's hard to knowunless you're open and honest

(50:35):
about it.

Speaker 00 (50:36):
Yeah, you hear about the opioid problem in America
all the time.
This is more of a scientificquestion, but is there a future
outlook of changing opioids or asynthetic opioid that can
possibly be less addictive or...
more friendly to the body?

Speaker 02 (50:53):
Yeah.
So a huge question.
I'll give you a brief overviewback when I was in training.
Pain was the fifth vital signand we were taught to prescribe
opioids because people didn'tbecome addicted if they really
had pain.
And so don't worry about it.
And we know it's not true now.
That was kind of the beginningof the opioid epidemic, which we
caused it, right?
Like physicians triggered thattsunami.

(51:17):
Then somewhere in the 2000teens, you know, we began to
address this.
And so we cut way back on ourprescribing.
And I'm not saying we do itperfectly now, but we do it much
better than we did 25 yearsago.
And so that's dramaticallydecreased.
Then came the advent offentanyl when cheap fentanyl hit
the community.
And this, I mean, profoundlyaddictive, profoundly dangerous.

(51:40):
I mean, overdose, the overdosesjust went, you know, with
opioids skyrocketed.
And so that's, you know, that'sthis, you know, another wave of
the opioid epidemic that wedidn't cause, but now we've got
to try to deal with it.
Preventative measures, thingsthat it's so counterintuitive
sometimes, like giving peopleNarcan.

(52:01):
I'm giving people Narcan sothey can use drugs, but trying
to save lives so that people canfind recovery eventually.
Medications that can help.
These are all new things that,again, I didn't know about 20
years ago, and it wasn't on myradar, but what we've learned
and how we've adapted and had todeal with it.
As far as new pain medicationsgoes, it's not easy, but there's

(52:22):
so many different ways toaddress pain.
And when we're motivated not togive people opioids, then we
find them, right?
And so, I mean, you know...
The necessity has taught us todo things differently.
And so I had a knee replacementin 2022, and I'm like, I don't
want opioids.
And was it fun?
No.
Would I have, in the oldendays, used that as an excuse to
get opioids?
You bet.
But I got through it withoutopioids, and my physician helped

(52:45):
me and gave me alternative painmedications.
And so, yeah, it's not alwayseasy, but there's many different
options.

Speaker 01 (52:56):
As a physician...
And someone that has beenthrough the experience of
addiction, how would you, froman educational standpoint, what
would you say to our listeners?
What can people learn fromopioids?
And what, like you said,there's so much there, and I

(53:17):
wouldn't expect even you to haveall of the answers, but how do
we educate the listeners?
How do we do this even better?
And what does change look likefor people?

Speaker 02 (53:28):
I don't know if this is what you're getting at, but
I think a lot of people look atthe person addicted to drugs or
alcohol and I don't get it.
Like, why do you do somethingso stupid?
And looking back at myself, Ido the same thing.
Like, how could you dosomething so dumb?
And I would say, think aboutthat thing in your own life that
you wish you could stop, butyou can't.
And even if it's simple as, Ialways use donuts as my analogy.

(53:49):
That's always my favoriteanalogy.
Like, because I love donuts,right?
I had one this morning.

Unknown (53:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 02 (53:54):
So what's that thing in your life that you're just
eating, like eating the donut?
I know that when I step on thescale tomorrow, I'm going to
regret it, but right now I justwant it.
I know that I want to run themarathon in 12 weeks, but right
now I just want to sit on thecouch and eat pizza.
And so what's that thing inyour life that causes you some
misery, some pain, but you can'tstop doing it?

(54:16):
And identify that thing andthen go, oh, that's my opioid.
That's my...
It's my drug.
And so I think that's the firstthing I try to ask people is
just put yourself in the shoesof the addicted person and try
to understand their struggle.
And what if your struggle wasthat?
And this is the problem thatthe person who struggles with

(54:40):
drugs faces is that I have thisstruggle and it doesn't just go
away.
I liked people.
pizza before I found faith andrecovery.
And after I found faith andrecovery, I still like pizza.
And so I've still got thesedestructive appetites.
But the person who's addicted,like if I relapse, if I screw up
once, my life could be over.
I mean, I don't get more secondchances, right?

(55:03):
I've had my second chance.
And so that's the first thing Iask people to understand is
just put yourself in thatsituation where you can't stop
doing that thing.
Then I think So some empathy,right?
Or some understanding, like I'mwilling to understand.
And then I think one of themost common questions I get is

(55:23):
how do I make my loved one, mychild or my spouse, stop using
drugs?
And of course you can't.
That's the first answer is youcan't.
And you need to accept that.
You are responsible for you andyou're not responsible for
them.
I can't have faith for you.
I can't recover for you.
I can't change you.
But I can engage in healthybehaviors myself.

Speaker 01 (55:44):
Meaning they have to do it on their

Speaker 02 (55:46):
own.
Well, yeah.
Only you can find recovery foryourself, right?
But there's healthy behaviorsthat I can do that might
influence you.
So, I mean, to educate myself,to learn about addiction, learn
about whatever the drug is, ifit's opioids, if it's
stimulants, if it'smethamphetamines or alcohol,
learn about the drug and learnabout the addiction, learn about
options for treatment.
And then I pray.

(56:07):
And so I pray for that person.
I think it's such a profoundlyhealthy behavior in my mind,
even if it never...
My wife prayed for me, even ifthat never fixed me in her
timeline, how it's healthy forthe person struggling to pray.
Take that to God and say, God,I'm giving this to you.
to not enable, to not be partof the problem, not contribute

(56:28):
to the problem, to not allowthat person's destruction to
destroy your life.
And that's the decision my wifewas faced with.
For the protection of me and mykids, I need to be done with
this marriage.
And she didn't do that, but wewere at that point.
That's where if I had keptusing drugs, I'm out.
And so those are all toughthings.
Boundaries are healthy.
Choosing not to enable.

(56:49):
There's all kinds of behaviorsthat I can engage in if I'm
trying to influence that person.
And then you can always do anintervention.
That's kind of the final stepto say, everybody gets together
and we now tell you how youraddiction is hurting us.
And so there's lots of stepsyou can take, but at the bottom,
at the end of the day, you haveto have boundaries, protect

(57:10):
yourself and realize you can'tforce the other person to
change.

Speaker 00 (57:14):
So being exposed to people who are addicted to drugs
in your work now and workingalongside them through the
recovery process, do you see alot of people have a coming to
faith moment or do a lot ofpeople get through it without
God?
It just seems like that wassuch a fundamental part of your
recovery that it gave you apurpose for the future.

(57:35):
Is that something that a lot ofother people who are addicted
to drugs and recover go throughthe same turn to faith moment?

Speaker 02 (57:44):
That's a really good question because I don't know
that I meet people I got tostart thinking about this.
I don't meet a lot of people inrecovery or that are working on
recovery that say, I don'tbelieve in God.
I mean, I have, but it's prettyuncommon.
And so that's interesting.
I don't know that I've everthought about that.
And I just kind of alwaysassume that, like, you're bad at

(58:07):
making decisions.
You need God.
Yeah, you're right.
I do.
I mean, nobody says,

Speaker 00 (58:12):
no, I don't.
I'm sure there's some, but...
What's interesting about thatto me is I know a couple other
people who have just hadtransformational changes in
their lives from alcoholism tojust being a really strong
Christian, or even in the Bible.
You see Paul.
It's just really evident to methat some people who have the
really transformational momentscome through significant trials

(58:34):
in their lives.
And I think that's reallyinspiring to me and also
inspiring to, I'm sure,listeners and other people who
can learn and see with your eyesthat these struggles or tough
moments really define who youbecome.

Speaker 02 (58:49):
I'm

Speaker 00 (58:50):
sure

Speaker 02 (58:50):
there's people that, I know there is, that have
gotten sober and become betterpeople, become much better
people without God.
And I know that.
And I'm not going to criticizethat.
The God that I learned as achild, my parents instilled in
me, which I'm thankful for that,is a God who really is in the

(59:11):
business of transforming livesand taking something that is as
terrible as where I was at andbringing this new life out of
it.
And I get goosebumps when Italk about it because, I mean, I
look at where I was and I'm notperfect.
I'm far from perfect.
God is still working on me.
He still has transformation toperform in me.
But thank God that I'm not backwhere I was.
And so, I mean, that's what ourGod does.

(59:31):
And that's...
That's the message is, yeah, weall have struggles.
We've all, we've all doneself-destructive things and we
all have these struggles, but Ido not have to live enslaved to
that struggle.
If I follow God, I can livethis, I can have this new, I
know I can have this new life.
Right.
And, and, and I don't have tobe there anymore.
And I can, I can find joy andpeace and life here.
And now, like, like I, when Iwas a kid, I thought, I thought

(59:52):
the good life was, wasn't untilI died and I went to heaven.
And, that's absurd.
Now looking at it, I'm like,and I thought, and I thought,
oh, I can, I can, I can have agood life.
I just do what I want here.
And it's the exact opposite.
Of course I can have the goodlife here.
Now, uh, you know, this is,this is eternal life that you
can know me.
And that's what Jesus says is,is you can know me here.
And now you have to wait till Ihaven't have the new life.

(01:00:14):
And that's, that's the promiseof, of, of coming to faith is
that God can give us

Speaker 00 (01:00:19):
new life.
Is that the inspiration foryour book title?

Speaker 02 (01:00:22):
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
So growing up, I reallyunderstood again, that,
Christians don't have struggles,right?
Like you come to Christ andlike the struggles are all gone.
And like...
I don't know where I got it.
My dad didn't teach me that,but it's absurd looking back.
And so the book title isFreedom in the Fight.
I can know freedom.
Yeah, there's still a struggle.

(01:00:43):
And again, I still have flaws.
I still have need.
But as long as I take that toGod daily, I can find freedom
daily.
I can find life daily.
I can find joy.
Is it a struggle some days?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not always fun.
But as long as that keeps medependent on God, I can find
freedom even in that fight.
And the blog name is prettysimilar.
It's a blog name.
Faith in the struggle.

(01:01:03):
Wow, that's terrible.
It's my own blog.
I write it every day.
Faith in the struggle.
Yeah, I mean, there is astruggle.
Let's be real, right?
Life is a struggle.
But I can know freedom and Ican know faith and I can know
joy and peace even in that.
I can't

Speaker 01 (01:01:18):
believe I forgot my own blog name.

(01:01:41):
the forgiveness from yourchildren.
And again, number one, thefreedom and forgiveness that
Christ has offered you.
And through that, you've oftensaid to live this life of joy.
And I love that you write aboutthis daily.

(01:02:03):
And you've also said, even ifonly your mom reads, but I just
want to say, Encourage ourlisteners to read your book,
Freedom in the Fight.
Go to your website, read yourblog, and it's been so inspiring
how you have gone into the Wordand what you've done to

(01:02:23):
encourage others.
But I do want to go back topeople struggling.
What I do think is so inspiringabout your story, Dr.
Scott, is it is applicable toall people.
I'm not equating every struggleto the struggle you've been
down.
But Everybody struggles.
And now Barb has told me thatyou walk out the door every day

(01:02:46):
with tremendous purpose.
Again, you've taken this pain,this valley in your life, you
turned it around.
And you said, Lord, here we go.
And we are going to make adifference in the lives of
others.
And you just live with joy andpurpose.
And you change lives daily andhave a profound impact on lives.

(01:03:10):
So I once again want to thankyou for choosing that fork in
the road and being the inspiringperson that you are.
How can you tell our listenersthat?
What would you say to encouragethem if they're in a struggle
at this time?

Speaker 02 (01:03:29):
Yeah, I mean, again, we've all got our struggles.
They're all different.
And you're right, they're notall the same consequences.
But in following ourselves, weturn ourselves from God, right?
And that robs us of the joy andpeace we were created for.
God made us to know.
life and and we all want to behappy and that's not wrong we go
wrong and how we try to find itright we try to find it in the

(01:03:51):
places that we think it shouldbe and we do things our way and
um paradoxically um i found lifein not doing things my way
right and so that's that's thethat's the i'm kind of a broken
record i mean that's that'sthat's the lesson i mean if if
you're miserable and you're sickof the old life you don't have
to stay there um i'm not sayingthat Following God makes, he

(01:04:14):
doesn't iron out all thewrinkles of your life, but in
that relationship, we can knowpeace despite the wrinkles,
despite the trials, despitethose things.
And we don't have to liveenslaved to them, right?
So, and some people's trialsare beyond their control, right?
An illness or, you know, notall our struggles are our fault,

(01:04:35):
right?
But whatever the struggle is,we don't have to let that thing
define us.
The most important thing aboutus is our relationship with God.
And if we live in that and weinvest in that relationship, I
tell this to my kids all thetime, just invest in your
relationship with God every day.
That pays off, right?
So all the things we think areimportant, the relationship with
God is where you find your truelife and your true meaning.

(01:04:55):
And if you just invest in thatrelationship every day, bad
things will still happen.
You'll still have struggles,but you can still...
have joy, right?
You still have life.
And that's how we're meant tolive.
Did I answer your question?
I don't know if I actually

Speaker 01 (01:05:08):
got the answer.
You did.
What does winning the day looklike for you?

Speaker 02 (01:05:16):
It's easy to think that...
So working in addictionmedicine, you set out to save
the world, right?
I'm going to change the world.
Everybody I meet is going tohave what I had.
We're all going to be sobertomorrow.
And of course, that's not true.
It's like...
It's like anything.
I mean, working in oncology,you're going to help some
patients and some of yourpatients, they're still going to

(01:05:38):
die.
And that's the tragic realityis I've had addiction medicine
patients that have died.
So you can't base...
your joy on numbers orperformance or results, winning
the day is being obedient to Godand what he wants from me and
being who I'm supposed to be.
And that's not just at work.

(01:05:59):
That's at home.
Was I selfish at home?
And when I first got sober, mywife said to me, you only make
decisions based on what youwant.
You don't think about Whatwould I want?
And I was like, oh, that'scompletely true.
That is a hundred percent true.
And so, uh, recovery has beennot what does Scott want?

(01:06:23):
What is, what does Scott want?
What does my wife need from me?
And I, again, I don't do thisperfectly every day.
She could, she'd be the firstperson to tell you that I still,
I still, still selfish, stilldo what I want to do.
But winning the day is a goodday is saying I can lay my head
down at night and say, I Ididn't do it perfect, but I did
what God wanted me to do today.
And whatever the outcome was,learning to leave that up to
him, and that requires somefaith.

(01:06:44):
You take it, it's yours.

Speaker 01 (01:06:47):
Dr.
Scott, what do you want to beknown for?
Yeah,

Speaker 02 (01:06:52):
for that.
I mean, there was a time when Irealized I was known for my
addiction.
Back in treatment, I didn'ttell you this part, that day I
had it out with God, when Godfirst said, follow me.
abandon yourself every day.
Do, do what I want you to do.
My first, my first responsewas, but I don't want to be a

(01:07:15):
Jesus freak.
I don't want to be a religiousnut.
I don't want people to look atme like that.
And, uh, I think again, Ididn't hear this, but I'm pretty
sure God laughed.
I'm pretty sure he's like, youknow what?
You know how people see youright now?
You're, you're, you are, andI'm going to use the word I said
not to say you are an addict.
Like it was a pejorative term.
Like this is how people seeyou.
And, uh, And that was like, oh,yeah, that's how people see me.

(01:07:40):
And maybe being known as aJesus freak wouldn't be so bad.
You know, like if those are mytwo options, like I'll take it,
you know.
And so now, yeah, I would wearthat as a badge of honor if
somebody called me a religiousnut or a Jesus freak.
I would say, yeah, if somebodysees my life and says there's a
guy who loves God and knows Godand follows God, that would,

(01:08:00):
that would, I'm going to cry.

Unknown (01:08:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (01:08:06):
I want to tell you that, and you're not looking for
my praise today, but we, Ispeak for countless people that
do love you and have alwaysloved you.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying yes to theLord.
Yes to Barb.
Yes to the kids.

(01:08:26):
Yes to the community.
Yes to treatment.
Yes to the hard work.
Yes to...
Now I'm going to cry.
Yes to now waking up every day.
It's 2025 and you walk out thatdoor with purpose.
Barb said you have tremendouspurpose.
You are walking in yourcalling.
You're living out your faith.
You have done kingdom work thatwe can't even wrap our...

(01:08:53):
minds around.
I know you give all the gloryto the Lord, and that's
something I admire so much aboutyou.
But when you look at Dr.
Scott Abrams in the mirror in2025, and you think back, you
play the story backwards.
Yes, you give the credit toGod, but I hope you're inspired

(01:09:18):
by yourself.
Are you inspired by yourself?

Speaker 02 (01:09:23):
I mean, I can't deny it's a great story.
I won't say it's not.
And if anybody asked me whatthey need to do, yes, I would
point them to God, but I wouldnever deny that recovery is...
you following God.
So yes, God is in charge, but,and we say, you know, I wish God

(01:09:46):
would just take the wheel of mylife.
He doesn't do that.
He doesn't, he sits in thepassenger seat and tells you
where to go.
And that's the hard part.
That is really the hard part.
So yes, God is in charge, but Ihave to follow.
And that is hard work.
And I won't deny that.
That's, I would say, you know,that's the thing that I was
missing was I wasn't willing todo anything.
And it takes doing.
Faith is not just, I believe inGod in my head.

(01:10:08):
Faith is, I actually followhim.
I ask him what to do and, and,and, and he'd love your
neighbor, uh, you know, lovethose around you and, and, uh,
love me and follow and do it.
And that's, that's hard work.
So yes, absolutely.
God transformed my life.
Absolutely.
He gave me an alternative towhat I was doing before, but
yeah, I won't, I won't denythat, that there was a lot of

(01:10:29):
hard work and, and I wouldn'ttell anybody else differently.
Yeah, it's hard work, but it Imean, what's the option?
That was my choice.
You said it was a fork, right?
You can live this life or thatlife.
Which one do you want?
And so, yeah, that's when Ibecame willing to, okay, I'm
going to do this.
And so it is hard work, but Goddoesn't leave you alone to do
it.
I mean, that's the beauty ofit.

(01:10:50):
He walks with you every day.
And the payoff, of course, thelife, the joy, the peace of
having the Spirit in you isbetter than any drug, right?
So, yeah.

Speaker 01 (01:11:04):
I'm so proud of how you have responded.
Cling to that amazing wife andher cling to you.

(01:11:24):
And the gift of forgiveness,again, what an amazing gift that
you gave yourself, that theygave to you.
And I admire you so much.
You're a strong team for Christfor staying together and the
amazing kids that you have.
You really have been aninspiration to countless people.
But the other thing I thinkabout when I think of your

(01:11:47):
legacy and response to pain anda really difficult journey is
you could be eating donuts, youcould have your feet up on the
couch, and you could have notbeen serving the incarcerated
and underserved and all thatyou're doing as a physician and
all that you're doing personallyin the spheres of your life for

(01:12:08):
people in the kingdom work thatyou're doing.
But then you also decide on topof it, I'm going to give people
the gift of a book and thevulnerability to share this
story.
And so I All those forks thatyou've been given, if we can
encourage people, you keeptaking the harder but more
admired road, the right responseroad.

(01:12:31):
So thank you, Dr.
Scott, for writing this book,Freedom in the Fight.
It is awesome.
Everyone should read this.
And if you're not strugglingwith drugs, it's applicable to
all struggles.
And we're so grateful for theblog that you so generously get

(01:12:51):
up every day and do.
You really have a gift ofwriting.
That's one of many gifts thatyou have.
The website that you have.
But I thank you for the...
The man you are, the Christfollower you are, the community
leader that you are, and really,Dr.
Scott, you'll never be able tomeasure your ripple effect

(01:13:16):
through this story and the goodthat you brought this world, and
we're so thankful.
Before I tell Dr.
Scott to throw out the lastpebble...
Harris, is there any lastquestions or comments that you
would like to say?

Speaker 00 (01:13:29):
Just thanks for coming on today and joining us
and be willing to share yourstory.
It's really inspiring that youopen up about that and are just
so vocal about thetransformation of your life.
Thanks, Harris.
Glad to be here.

Speaker 01 (01:13:42):
Dr.
Scott, anything else that youdid not get to say with this
entire story that's on yourheart?
Anything that we didn't ask oranything you want to share that
will be a takeaway or takeawaysfor our listeners?
And we so appreciate yourwillingness to share.

(01:14:02):
It's meant a lot to thelisteners and to us.

Speaker 02 (01:14:06):
I think the thing that people ask me when they
come up afterwards is, okay,so...
where are you and your wife atnow?
And what was that like?
And that's a whole story initself.
And so I just have to say,she's been incredibly forgiving
and it didn't happen all atonce.
It took a lot of time and a lotof time of being different,
being a different person for herto begin to believe it was

(01:14:28):
gonna be different.
And so I'm just so thankful forher.
I think you alluded to it.
She's a loving wife and she'sforgiven me.
And I think that, again, God isa God of restoration, and He
doesn't...
We don't get to fix all of ourpast, right?
So we can't undo everything.
I have a job I will never goback to.

(01:14:49):
That will never come back, youknow?
And I have relationships that Ihave destroyed that won't ever
come back.
But I don't live in that placeanymore.
I don't live in that old life,and you can have a new life.
And if I had to say one thingto our listeners, if you are
struggling with something...
You don't have to.
There's freedom.
And what God does in us incoming to faith is he gives us

(01:15:12):
something to follow besidesourself.
And in that, it is hard work.
But, man, it's worth it.
And so, yeah, if you'restruggling, you don't have to
live enslaved.
Turn to God and ask him what hewants you to do.
And the hard part is doing it.
But it'll transform you.

Speaker 01 (01:15:30):
Dr.
Scott and Barb Abrams said,Adult children, Jake and Maggie,
thank you so much for agreeingto sharing this amazing story.
Lives are changed because ofit.
We're so grateful.
Thank you for the differencethat you make in the lives of
others.

Speaker 02 (01:15:49):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 01 (01:15:53):
This has been the One Pebble Podcast.
One pebble, so many ripples.
What will you do to make adifference?