From Soviet Oppression to Academic Freedom: Dr. Victoria Khiterer on Russia's History of Religious Persecution

Dr. Victoria Khiterer an esteemed historian and professor at Millersville University, joins us to share her compelling journey from the Soviet Union to the United States, defying the oppressive policies that aimed to silence her voice. Her personal stories of resilience bring to life the harsh realities faced by those living under Soviet rule. From her experiences with Perestroika to witnessing the collapse of the Soviet regime, Dr. Khiterer insights offer a vivid portrayal of courage and determination in the face of adversity.

Hear about the trials and triumphs of a Jewish historian who refused to be defined by the discrimination of her time. Despite a system that tried to crush ethnic diversity and stifle ambition, she found her path to academia during a tumultuous period of change. Learn how perseverance and an unwavering commitment to her dreams led her to pursue a career in history, eventually bringing her to the U.S., where she continued her influential work in teaching and research.

This episode uncovers the enduring impact of Soviet policies on freedom of speech and religious expression, through personal narratives and historical analysis. We dive into the persecution of intellectuals, Stalin's tyrannical reign, and the struggle to commemorate Jewish history amid state-driven narratives. Dr.Khiterer provides invaluable perspectives on the rich history of Jewish communities, Khrushchev's anti-religious campaigns, and the tireless fight to preserve these stories for future generations. Join us for a deeply moving discussion that underscores the importance of remembering history to shape a better future.

Send us a text

-Links-

https://www.svetkapopov.com/

https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I find what's interesting about this period of
history too, that it was notjust religious persecution that
people were being essentiallypunished in the same way, but it
was also you saying somethingagainst the leader, the
government, the policies thatcould get you in the same crime.

(00:20):
So I think what's interestingto understand for people who are
maybe not religious or notinterested in religion to begin
with, but to understand thatthese kind of policies affect
all the citizens, because youhave no freedom of speech, you
have no freedom of creativeexpression, whether it's through
literature, your ideas orthoughts.
It's, in general, likeeverything is shut down except

(00:43):
what the leader wants you tobelieve, which, like you said,
in that case it's a communistreligion, because this is what
we want you to believe in.
Anything outside of this bubble, you will be punished,
persecuted to the you know, untodeath.
Essentially, that's theseverity of that law.
Hey, friends, welcome to theones who dared.
Podcast where stories ofcourage are elevated.

(01:03):
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here.
Dr Victoria Hitterer, thank youso much for coming on the Once

(01:26):
With you podcast.
I'm so honored to have you heretoday.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Thank you very much for inviting me to podcast.
It's a big honor for me toparticipate in this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, so Dr Victoria is a professor of history at
Millersville University inPennsylvania.
She's also the founding memberof the academic council of the
Beban Yor Holocaust MuseumCenter in Kiev, ukraine.
You're an author and editor ofover eight books and hundreds of
articles on Ukrainian, russian,eastern European Jewish history

(02:00):
and the Holocaust, and I am soexcited to talk to you here and
I just want to let the audienceknow how we met.
So I was in a forging class formy son.
He was making a sword of sorts,and it was about a four hour
long class and I took with methis book called the Gulag by

(02:20):
Ann Applebaum.
And so there was a student, oneof your students, that was
there.
I think his name is MichaelMcClotsky.
Am I saying his name, right?
Yes, yeah, and so he.
Just he was like one of theinstructors there.
He came up to me and he waslike may I ask you why you're
reading this book?
Because it's not very common tosee people your age reading a

(02:43):
book this thick and on Gulag forall out of all things, and um.
So I just told him kind ofbriefly, like oh, this is part
of my research for a book thatI'm working on, just trying to
understand more of um, you knowmy family history and all the
things.
And so, as he we got talking toabout the book and he was so
excited, he like he lit up, youknow, and he told me about you

(03:06):
and he's like, oh, you got toget in touch with Victoria, the
professor at MillersvilleUniversity.
She's an expert on subjects.
She'd be so helpful for you andyour research and anything you
need.
And sure enough, you were, Ithink.
Shortly after that, we had ourfirst Zoom call where I asked
you tons of questions and justyou were just like really
incredible of you know how can Ihelp you and let me know if

(03:29):
there's anything you need.
And so this go around.
I thought, you know, I can haveanother call with you or I can
have you in the podcast and wecan have a conversation that not
only I get to benefit from, butalso the audience from just
learning about all the differentthings.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Thank you very much.
It's very pleasant for me tohear that my advice was helpful,
and I really like to educatepeople about Russian, ukrainian
and Eastern European history.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah, and so I mean.
The thing that I wanted to getinto the conversation with you
is the history of the SovietUnion and, essentially, the lack
of freedom for its citizenswhen it came to expression of
the relief, their ideas, thereligion, persecution, where it
seems to be really longingrained in the history, and

(04:23):
the Soviet policies.
Were, you know, researching itback?
It's like, when did they havefreedom?
It's like, with every leaderthere was a new policy, a new
wave of persecution, andsometimes it eased up a bit and
then it went, you know, up anddown.
It was almost a rollercoasterride, but essentially it was
very hard to identify like whendid they really have freedom?
So, before we dig into all thatstuff, I'm curious to know um,

(04:48):
just essentially, how did youget into being a professor at
millersville university?
What enticed you into thesubject of soviet history, like
why this job, this profession?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
um, and yeah, in the subject altogether, I always
tell my students that I grew upin the Soviet Union, so I'm an
expert as a historian and I'm ahigh witness of many important
events like Perestroika thatstarted when I was in high
school and the collapse of theSoviet Union.

(05:22):
I left the former Soviet Union,ukraine, in 1997 when I
immigrated from country.
But, yes, I really, fromprobably my fourth or fifth
grade, dreamed to becomehistorian, and that everybody

(05:43):
told me that it's impossiblebecause you Jewish and history
was considered in Soviet Unionideological subject.
I did not want to listen toanybody and I even more dream to
become historian, like to breakthis wall, to overcome this ban

(06:04):
and to write a history, and Ican tell you that I was very
lucky one, because time haschanged.
I probably if I was born adecade early it would be
impossible, but when I completedmy high school already, as I

(06:29):
said, it was perestroika andstate anti-Semitism collapsed in
the Soviet Union and sooncollapsed in the Soviet Union,
and Jewish people becomebasically accepted to former
ideological, we can saydepartments of university and

(06:57):
they can become historians aswell, as they were allowed also
to enter some other professionsthat were before, during Soviet
time, closed for Jewish people.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
And what year was that?
When you were graduating fromhigh school?

Speaker 2 (07:12):
I was graduated in 1985, but it took me still two
years to enter to university,because Perestroika really
gained strength only in 87.
I tried to enter universitythree times and first two times
I was rejected basically forideological reason.

(07:34):
One time I even directly heardyou are Jewish, you cannot study
there because it's ideologicalfaculty.
And what if you decide toimmigrate to Israel?
Or if your family?
I said I would not immigrate.
I thought I would not immigratefrom the country.
But they said oh, you're 17years old, you don't decide for

(07:58):
yourself.
Your family may decide toimmigrate.
We cannot accept you.
So they just did not accept mefor my ethnic background,
because I was Jewish wow, that'sincredible.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
So in a sense you were a little bit of a rebel.
You were like, hey, because Ican't do this, I want to push it
even more.
And I find it interesting thatyou still had this dream, even
though at that time it was like,based on some of the interviews
that I had with people from theformer Soviet Union, you know,
when I asked them, like what didyou want to do when you grow up
, like what were your dreams?

(08:32):
And a lot of them just said,you know, I didn't dream,
because what was the point?
We didn't think like you thinkhere in America where it's like
oh, what are my possibilities?
What do I want to do?
You know, things were solimited that dreams weren't
really that accessible, and Ilove that.
You were like I want to be aprofessor and the odds were

(08:52):
against you, but you continuedto persevere.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
I can tell you that I always refused to feel myself a
second or third class citizen.
Second or third class citizenOften in my childhood, with my
parents, my relatives alwaystold me you should remember that
you are Jewish.
It means that in Soviet Unionyou cannot do this, you cannot

(09:19):
do that.
You should choose professionsthat are not very prestigious.
Like you should go to sometechnical college or university
and better go not in Kyiv.
In Kyiv, more competition.
You should go to someprovincial town.
While less competition, youwill have a better chance to

(09:41):
accept it.
And I feel like I want to studyin my city, in Kyiv.
Why should there be asecond-class or third-class
citizen in the Soviet Union?
As I said, I was lucky the timechanged If it would happen
decade early.
Unfortunately, my relativeswere right about this time, but

(10:03):
I felt that time changed and in87 I was accepted.
And when I studied a coupleyears in university, my
professor I even remember hername, professor Kryzhanovskaya,
who taught Middle Age history,medieval history, told other

(10:25):
students they did not acceptbefore Jewish people because
they were instructed by localdepartments of communist party.
But Jews, she pointed to me,students are so smart, so she
regrets that they did not acceptbefore.
But also she underlined thatthis was order from a district

(10:50):
committee of the Communist Partythat don't accept Jewish
students.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Interesting.
And then how did you transitionthat education in the States,
because I know not all creditsare transferable from country to
country?
How did you get into being aprofessor at Millsboro
University now?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
This was another challenge for me.
I came to the United Stateswith a PhD already, two books
published, but published inRussian, of course, and with 40
articles published, and with 40articles published.
But I applied for jobs and forthree years I received

(11:29):
rejections from everywhereexcept community colleges.
That gave me a part-time job.
One of my first jobs was inSanta Monica Community College,
but I dreamed to be a universityprofessor, not a community
college.
But I dream to be a universityprofessor, not a community
college professor.
There are big differencesbecause in community college

(11:50):
usually people don't do muchresearch.
They only focus on teaching andteaching just survey courses.
I dream to teach advancedcourses in undergraduate and
graduate level and also I alwayswas a very research-oriented
person.
So I understood that universitywould be a much more

(12:14):
appropriate environment, ascholarly environment, for me,
and I took a challenge to writea second PhD dissertation.
I took a challenge to write asecond PhD dissertation.
I have two PhD dissertations,one from Russian State
University of Humanities inMoscow and a second from
Brandeis University.
I was lucky that I receivedfull scholarship from Brandeis

(12:41):
University.
My thesis advisor, professorAnthony Polonsky, who is a great
specialist on Polish history,polish-jewish history and the
Holocaust helped a lot becausehe found some donors.
I, of course, came to thiscountry without any means and I

(13:01):
studied absolutely for free atBrandeis.
I did not pay even plenty formy education, and it took me
another five years and Idefended my PhD dissertation in
2008 at Brandeis University andthen next year I find a job at

(13:23):
Millersville University.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Oh, amazing, look at that, you're quite the fighter.
Huh, you're like I'm not givingup on this, okay, well, let's
dig into this subject.
I think you know there's a lotof people were able to express

(13:51):
their thoughts, their beliefs,their religion, their ideas,
without fearing some sort ofpenalty for it.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Very good question.
I had my distant relative andmy friend who told me that still
in 1920s, beginning of 1930s,there were lots of debates at
least at her home she remembersit as a child and teenager about

(14:23):
politics, about political lifein Soviet Union.
So in 1920s, beginning 30sstill, you can talk about
politics and not be arrested forthis.
But unfortunately in 1937, herfather was arrested as
Trotskyist and that same year hewas executed, just a Trotskyist

(14:45):
.
And that same year he wasexecuted just a few months later
.
And I saw his KGB file and Iwas very displeased how many
denunciations were from hisstudents.
He was professor at Lubny Lubnyis a provincial Ukrainian city,

(15:09):
so he was a professor ofmathematics and, as I said, he
was arrested in 1937.
And in 1937, his students, hiscolleagues, denounced him and
said oh, he criticized SovietUnion, he praised American life,

(15:30):
he said this, he said those, hesaid this in 1933.
So they remember four yearslater what he said in 1933.
And just on account of thisdenunciation he received a death
sentence in the Soviet Union.
So who really participated inpolitical discussions in 1920s,

(15:56):
1930s did not survive Stalinrepressions that took this peak
in 1937-38.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Wow, and so how did you?
I'm curious how you got accessto the KGB files.
That's an interesting thingright there.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
I could not get it during the existence of the
Soviet Union, but when theSoviet Union collapsed and
Ukraine Ukraine became more freeand more open country they
declassified many KGB files,especially the data before World
War II.
Then I was able to get hispersonal file and I still have a

(16:43):
copy of this file at home and,um, I can say, yes, uh, it show
basically the tragedy of stalinrepressions.
Because, um, his oldestdaughter, whom I also knew he
had three daughters, uh, fromthree different marriages.

(17:04):
His oldest daughter always saidthat Stalin killed my father
and I thought it allegorybecause Stalin repression and so
on.
I think that he definitely was.
I found his name in Stalin list.
I will explain what is Stalinlist.
I will explain what is Stalinlist.
Most prominent people likeprofessors of university,

(17:31):
intellectuals, also some localleaders or members of
administrations, or poets orwriters basically prominent
people were killed only fromStalin's personal agreement.
So NKVD how to call them, kgb,it was People's Commissariat of

(17:54):
Internal Affairs did not want totake responsibility for their
decision.
So they provide a list of theseprominent people for Stalin's
signature and often on this listalso signatures of either
Kaganovich or Voroshilov, theSoviet leaders, and my relative

(18:22):
his real name was Steinberg, butrevolutionary pseudonym was
Tkachuk Boris Zaharevich Tkachuk, who after the revolution
became a professor ofmathematics and basically not so
was involved in political life,was killed later, as I said in

(18:43):
1937, life was killed later, asI said in 1937, as Trotskyist,
on base of denunciation ofstudents and colleagues.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Well, so, if I am getting this correctly, before
in 1917, right, there wassemi-freedom for the Orthodox
Church, but that was alsobecause the Orthodox Church was
almost an arm of the government.
They were very heavilycontrolled by the government and

(19:13):
so and it's almost like theywanted to be recognized that
this is their religion, isOrthodox.
Am I correct?
Can you kind of elaborate alittle more on that period?

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yes, before 1917, the Christian Orthodox Church
became a state church in theRussian Empire.
It was a state church basicallyas long as the Russian Empire
existed.
Other religions actually weresemi-suppressed but also allowed

(19:50):
.
I said semi-suppressed becauseduring Soviet times they were
really suppressed.
What I mean semi-suppressed?
There were restrictions forpeople who want, for example,
convert to Judaism.
It was not basically allowed.
There were also restrictionsfor Catholic people and so on.

(20:12):
But their churches were open,synagogues were open and I can
say Jewish people can have theirrabbis.
I can say Jewish people canhave their rabbis, orthodox
people could have their priests.

(20:32):
We can say other congregations,like Lutherans, can have their
pastors.
So it was not completelysuppressed but was, I would say,
partially suppressed, non-statereligion and they were under
control of state.
But the difference is that inSoviet time almost all religions

(20:56):
were completely suppressedexcept communist religion.
We can say that communism alsowas a belief of people and
synagogues, mosques, churcheswere closed.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
And many religious or were executed.
Yeah, so it was during VladimirLenin period right, that was
from 1917 to 1924, that they hadthe Bolshevik Revolution, and
so there was a decree onseparation of the church and the
state in 1918.
And then that's when theypersecuted the clergy, and was

(22:01):
that a time too that they weretaking down church bells and
just trying to get rid ofeverything?

Speaker 2 (22:07):
In 1918, I just started this company, but it
continued for many years and itwent back and forth because
people resisted religiousresistance.
I can tell you that Lenin andBolsheviks during the civil war

(22:30):
really need money confiscateeverything from churches,
synagogues, all valuable goldand silver subjects, ritual
subjects.
But it still does not mean thatthey closed all these churches
because of religious resistance.
They probably would close moreif they could.

(22:51):
But they did not want toalienate the mass of population
because many people were stillquite religious.
But the second wave of thiscampaign started in the late
1920s.
It was already under Stalin inthe 28th, 29th, 30th and

(23:15):
basically the first half of the1930s also, when many churches,
synagogues and mosques wereclosed everywhere in the Soviet
Union.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Was that the?

Speaker 2 (23:30):
great purge.
It was part of the purge.
Why in this period of time?
Because Stalin calls it acultural revolution In 1928,
when he finished with NEP, withNew Economic Policy, and he
believed that part of CulturalRevolution should be a theistic

(23:53):
education of people, that theyshould not believe in God
anymore, they should not go tochurches, they should not go to
synagogues, they should not goto mosques.
So let's close all of them.
And Soviet power was muchstronger than during the Civil
War, when there were manydifferent enemies.

(24:13):
But at this time they feel thatthey are strong enough to do
whatever they want and ignore,basically, people's opinion.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, so that was when things got really more
heavily persecuted, in a sense,and they were sending people to
gulags and or, like you said,executing people, sending them
to prisons, executions, tortures, all the things, that it was

(24:52):
not just religious persecutionthat people were being
essentially punished in the sameway, but it was also you saying
something against the leader,the government, the policies
that could get you in the samecrime.
So I think what's interesting tounderstand for people who are
maybe not religious or notinterested in religion to begin
with, but to understand thatthese kind of policies affect

(25:12):
all the citizens, because youhave no freedom of speech, you
have no freedom of creativeexpression, whether it's through
literature, your ideas orthoughts.
It's, in general, likeeverything is shut down except
what the leader wants you tobelieve, which, like you said,
in that case it's a communistreligion, because this is what
we wants you to believe, which,like you said, in that case,
it's a communist religion,because this is what we want you
to believe.
And anything outside of thisbubble, you will be punished,

(25:35):
persecuted to the, you know,unto death.
Essentially, that's theseverity of that law.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Exactly.
I can tell you that in 1920s,when there was still new
economic policy that establishedLenin, there were still four
different political parties inthe Soviet Union.
There were socialist parties,there were some Jewish

(26:02):
pro-socialist parties.
They were not all closedimmediately in the Soviet Union,
but by the late 1920s there wasonly one political party that
controlled everything.
It was the Communist Party.
And then we can say all freedomof people was suppressed.
No more freedom of speech, nomore political parties except

(26:27):
the Communist Party and noimmigration from the Soviet
Union.
Any more political partiesexcept Communist Party and no
immigration from Soviet Union.
Because in 1920 still peoplecan leave the country if they
disagree, but in 1930s the gatesof the country were totally
sealed.
We can say and people cannotleave the country.

(26:49):
They were stuck there and theywere deprived of freedom of
speeches, freedom of assemblies,freedom of express themselves
as they want.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, and the other thing that I find very
interesting was that, at thesame time, the Soviet Union
didn't want other countries tobelieve that they were
persecuting people for religiousbeliefs.
Is that true?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yes, soviet policy was quite hypocritical.
They said we don't persecutepeople for religion, we have
freedom of consciousness.
And they also claim that theydon't have anti-Semitism in the
Soviet Union, when there waslots of anti-Semitism.
So they did persecute peoplefor religious belief.

(27:42):
For example, people whoattended church could lose
easily their jobs.
They can be expelled fromuniversity if they're students
of university.
So there were persecutions.
It does not mean that everybodywent to prison, but a person

(28:02):
who was a believer cannotbasically take any prestigious
position in Soviet society.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, that's a good point too, and under Stalin's
rule.
The other thing that I findinteresting is that when they
were arresting people for youknow, essentially, if people
were believers, whether it wasJudaism, christianity, catholic,
whatever that was they had whatI'm calling a fake court with

(28:35):
false witnesses, and also thecharges that they were charged
with were not, rather than thembeing honest and saying you know
this person, because of yourfaith, we are arresting you and
sentencing you to X, y and Z.
It would be like you knowyou're the enemy of the state
because you are.
You know it was under section58, 10, and 11, which was

(28:59):
anti-government propaganda,anti-government agitation,
things like that that was.
Or they would label you, thingslike, in my family's case, my
grandmother was labeled as anAmerican spy and she was the
enemy of the state and she wasan agitator of the government
and the citizens.
And so essentially, and at thetop of that, you would have

(29:22):
false witnesses and people whowould say things, or like the
professor that you talked about,the math professor who had all
these different things thatpeople wrote about him.
And so why bother?
Why bother to even create thisillusion of a court system or
like that?
There's some kind of justice orprocess that goes through when

(29:44):
people were just being shotanyways, like to me, it's just
there's not a lot of logicbehind that, so I'd love to get
an explanation to why that wasthe case.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
It?
European mask on Asian face.
How call it?
Historian Dubnov, still in theRussian empire, was many
despotic features of Asianregime.
At those times the rulers triedto wear European masks and

(30:15):
pretend we are European, we arecivilized people.
For example, during the CulturalRevolution in China the crowds
killed, how they believe,believe, enemies of the people,
among whom were many Chineseintellectuals, on the street,

(30:35):
without any court and judgmentsystem.
But in Soviet Union theypretend that they have a court,
that they are European, thatthey pursuing some laws and so
on.
But we should remember aboutSoviet courts and Soviet trials

(30:59):
that they were very short andespecially in the peak of Stalin
repressions, some I saw trialstook like 10 minutes.
That gave the death sentence tosome particular person on
accusation of Trotskyism orcounter-revolutionary activity

(31:20):
or some other accusations.
So we can say it were delusionthat you saw it's probably for
Western society.
We can say it was a delusionthat the Soviet Union was
probably for Western society tolook better in the eyes of
European and Western countriesbecause they wanted to be before

(31:44):
World War II in some allianceswith other countries in some
alliances with other countries.
But really it was more delusionfor local population and for
Western countries than the realcourt.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
So I'm just curious at that time, were people, say,
neighbors and citizens in theSoviet Union?
Did they believe that there wasjustice?
Or were people aware of howcorrupt the system was?
For the most part, because, asyou said, they're trying to
pretend an illusion to thepeople in the country and

(32:27):
outside the country, but howobvious was it that what was
going on behind the scenes wasjust a hoax?

Speaker 2 (32:33):
essentially, I can say some naive people believe,
but there were many people whodid not believe in anything and
just try to distance themselvesfrom political life to survive
in this country.
For example, just in history ofmy own family, my grandmother,

(32:55):
maternal grandmother, alwayssaid I'm not interested in
politics, I'm not interested inpolitics, and this basically was
her reaction on what's going onin the country and that she
wanted to survive in thiscountry.
I heard from my father thatwhen Stalin died, my grandfather

(33:15):
, paternal grandfather, saidthat big bandit died.
So he knew that Stalin is bigbandit, that he's basically a
criminal himself, so hedefinitely did not respect him.
But while Stalin still wasalive he kept his mouth shut

(33:36):
because also wanted to survive.
So some people that understoodwhat was going on but wanted to
survive sit quiet just tosurvive.
And other naive people maybebelieve because I read many
memoir survive.
And other naive people maybelieve because I read many

(34:00):
memoirs and memoirs of famouscartoon artists from Soviet
Union Boris Efimov, who lived101 years and after the collapse
of the Soviet Union he said yes, I believe in all the show
trials because people admittheir guilt, for example,
bukharin, rykov, zinoviev.
They all said that they provideharmful activity in the Soviet

(34:25):
Union, that they try to destroythe political regime, and so on.
So what did Stalin's regime do?
They tortured people duringinterrogation and arrested their
families.
And because of this, yes, onshow processes that organized
Soviet Union in 1937-38, someSoviet leaders admitted that

(34:50):
they were enemies of the people,that they want to undermine
Soviet regime and so on andother nonsense.
And because they admitted theirguilt.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Some naive people believe in this yeah, and it's
interesting too that what Iremember is just in my study as
well, of reading memoirs,watching videos and different
things like that that there werepeople that were actually
genuinely grieved when Stalindied because they felt like he
was a good leader, even somethat were in gulags and punished

(35:25):
under his policies and hisrules, which is mind-boggling.
But some of them believe that ifhe knew I was in this gulag, he
would have never allowed thisto happen, like this was a
mistake.
And so there was this illusionof if our leader's great, he has
no idea that this is reallyhappening to the extent or the
way that it is, because you knowand I just happen to be a

(35:47):
victim of system gone wrong orsomething like that.
Where it is because you knowand I'm just happened to be a
victim of system gone wrong orsomething like that, where it's
like what, how is it?
Yeah, so to me that was justvery surprising because
initially, when I was justresearching solely my
grandmother's story and herletter and I assumed that
everybody was rejoicing whenSalen died, because that was

(36:07):
just what I thought would happen, knowing how evil he was.
But apparently that wasn't thecase because some people were so
bought into the idea of hisleadership that even when they
were in the gulag, even after hedied, they felt like no, he was
still a good leader.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Some people believe in Stalin like God.
When people were deprived ofreligions, I mean Christianity,
judaism, islam they look forlike a new religion and a new
religion was communism and manyof them believe that Stalin

(36:45):
almost demigod that representtheir country and construction
of communism.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Wow, yeah, that's really crazy, and so too, for
some of the things that they hadwas like Section 5810, 5811,
the Article 206.
So can you kind of dissectthose a little bit more of who
kind of came under that and whatthat entailed?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
I remember that my relative was under one of these
articles 58, I don't rememberparagraph, it was 5810 or 11 or
something else.
But the problem is that, as Isaid, stalin not just killed
people, he really beheaded thecountry.
He exterminated intellectuals,intelligentsia, critically

(37:40):
thinking people.
Yeah, so only obedient peopleor scared people who did not
dare to protest survived, andthis is a big problem because he

(38:01):
killed the most prominentpeople in the society.
Also, along with this, hekilled millions of peasants
during the Holodomor becausethere was resistance, and in
Ukraine the resistance wasstronger than in other parts of
the country.
Ukraine, like Pennsylvania, hasthe most fertile lands in

(38:28):
Eastern Europe, so it was abreadbasket of the Russian
Empire and the Soviet Union andthere never would have occurred
a famine if Stalin did notconfiscate all bread from
peasants.
And he did this to punish themthat they did not want to work
on collective farms, that theydid not want to work on

(38:52):
collective farms, that they didnot fulfill their plan, soviet
plans on collective farms andpeasants in Ukraine.
Farmers in Ukraine get used tobe individual farmers, they
don't get used to work togetheron some farm where nobody is
responsible for anything.
And they really resist and theywere uprising.

(39:13):
So Stalin decided to broke thespirit of people with famine.
It's a famous phenomenon whenpeople, exhausted from famine,
they could not anymore resist.
This phenomenon showed up notonly during Halada Mor, but
during World War II, when peoplewere in concentration camps,

(39:37):
when they turned basically toskeletons, when they barely can
walk.
Of course, these people cannotfight against those who did this
to them, and we can say thatit's one of the largest crimes
of the Stalin regime, because inpeaceful years between World

(39:59):
War I and World War II, in themost fertile part of the Soviet
Union that were the lands ofUkraine, he organized famines
that perished, by differentcalculation, from four to six
million people.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, that's a tragedy, and in some cases I
mean I know there was a lot ofdebate on whether that was true
or not, which is prettymind-boggling.
I mean, I know, even you knowmy family history there's
evidence that this was true,because my grandmother's family
actually moved out of Ukrainewhen she was young because of

(40:37):
what was going on, and so I meanit's a real thing, that
happened and as anything, I meaneven today we have people who
are Holocaust deniers that saythat you know, the Jews weren't
ever persecuted to the extentthat they were, and so it's
interesting, and I think that'swhy the work that you do as a
historian is so important toeducate people of what the world

(41:00):
is capable of, how humans weremistreated, because if we don't
learn from the past, mistakescan be repeated.
If we think, you know it'simpossible I mean there was a
woman that I was interviewingher family were um taken to um,
taken to the uh, to the naziconcentration camps, and they

(41:21):
lived in a small village and thedad was like we're not going to
leave, even though ourneighbors are leaving, because
no one will be capable of whatyou guys are talking about.
It's impossible that someone isjust going to come in and do
this or put us in exterminationcamps or slave us Like what are
you talking about?
So they ended up stayingbecause he was in denial that
this kind of inhumane treatmentwas possible.

(41:42):
Because, you know, we judgepeople based on our intentions,
the way that we think, and wethink like it would be
impossible.
This has never happened before.
And sure enough his family wastaken and she was a survivor.
But it's just.
I think that some of thosethings in history just seem
improbable, impossible becauseof how extreme it is.

(42:03):
I mean to for people likeespecially I mean us living in
US right now for people to sayone thing wrong about their
leader and then the neighborhearing and reporting it to the
local you know governmentofficials can get you shot and
or sent to, you know, a thousandmiles away from home and your

(42:25):
family will never see you againJust seems improbable.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
It seems, you know, it's stripping of every human
right uh, yes, I want to saythat, um, I'm jewish and, uh, I
heard from both grandmothers uh,how horrible was famine in
ukraine.
One grandmother told me thatshe was then very young, she was

(42:50):
born in 1914, and in 1933 shewas 19 years old and she fainted
from famine.
She lived then in a small town,bila Tserkva, this town near
Kiev, ukraine, just a couplehours from Kyiv, and to survive

(43:15):
she ran away from this town toKyiv because in Kyiv was a
little bit better situation withprovision and also they leave
to her brothers that had job.
She said she then was studentat college and she said in the
small town Bila Tserkva that shecould not study because she
fainted from famine.
I mean, she was so hungry.

(43:37):
And other grandmothers thatlived at this time in Kiev said
that she remembered that nearBiserabsky market that in
downtown Kiev were many swollenpeople.
They probably gathered aroundthis market because they hoped
that somebody give them piece ofbread or some food or something

(44:00):
like this.
They probably came fromvillages and she said it was
very difficult to see basicallyhow these people dine on the
street.
But she said I had nothing togive them because all bread
usage, even in cities, wasrestricted and people receive

(44:21):
like 50 grams of bread or 100grams of bread per day and
depend upon their job andposition in society and it was
absolutely nothing to give thembecause they did not have enough
bread themselves.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Wow yeah, that's just unthinkable and it's something
that could have been easilyavoided.
It was not a necessarypunishment to the society.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
If Stalin did not confiscate all bread from
Ukrainian peasants, it neverwould happen, because even in
time of Russian Empire and thenduring civil war and revolution,
never exists such horriblefamine as Stalin organized in
1933 in Soviet Union, andparticularly in Ukraine.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, wow.
Soviet Union, in particular inUkraine, yeah, wow.
Well, moving on to the nextleader of Russia down the
history line, here we haveNikita Khrushchev, who issued
his own new wave of religiouspersecution.
So he issued the Khrushchev'santi-religious campaign from
1958 to 1964, and so it wascalled the thaw and renown

(45:33):
suppression.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yes, I mean.
Censorship was then somewhatliberated in Soviet Union.
Solzhenitsyn then could publishone day of Ivan Denisovich,
about Gulag and Stalinrepressions, his biographical
novel.
Many other novels werepublished, but there was a new

(45:57):
wave of war against religion.
So more churches, synagoguesand mosques were closed
everywhere because Khrushchevbelieved that he was building
communism and he even announcedthat in 1980, the Soviet Union
should be communism, whateverthey had as they called

(46:18):
socialism or developed socialism.
And he believed that in thefuture communist society no
place for religion.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
So there was a new, we can say war against religion
yeah, and so with that too, hetargeted um even parents from
teaching their children about umany religion, and that was also
punishable.
What were some of theconsequences?
Like if people did um teachtheir children about their faith

(46:48):
whichever you faith, that wasduring that time.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I can say if people attended churches for any event,
baptized somebody or forreligious waiting, they can be
fired from their jobs.
And then they could not findtheir jobs according to their
profession, especially if theywere qualified workers.
Only professions that remainedfor them would be like janitor

(47:17):
or some very low-rank profession.
And also, if some person whowas a member of a communist
party or a communist youthmember attends the church or
synagogue, he can be expelledfrom this organization.

(47:39):
And then if you're not a member, for example, of a communist
youth organization, you cannotbe accepted to university.
You cannot be accepted touniversity.
Basically, you don't have anycareer or any good future in
Soviet Union.
Only, as I said, verylow-qualification jobs that were

(48:01):
not prestigious, like janitoror unqualified worker on some
plant, would be open for you.
But everything plant would beopen for you, but everything
else would be closed for you.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Yeah, and were not parents threatened to have their
children taken away had theypracticed their religion at home
?

Speaker 2 (48:20):
I can say that I don't know, but there could be
such cases.
I don't know.
But I know for sure that Jewishpeople in my childhood were
afraid to attend synagoguebecause they knew that under KGB
observation, that there are KGBagents including the board of

(48:45):
synagogue.
Synagogue was deprived rabbibut was members of board that
were appointed basically byauthorities and they reported on
all people who came there.
And same situation was inchurches where often is a priest
or somebody else who attendsthe church was kgb member and

(49:05):
reported people who attendedreligious services yeah, yeah,
yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
I mean, I personally know a friend of mine whose dad
was brought up in the orphanage.
I would say he was born aroundwould be my mom's age, which
would be 1958, around that era,which was when 1958 was the
release of anti-religiouscampaign, and so he was taken
away from his family because hisfamily believed in God and he

(49:35):
was raised in an orphanage, andso for him that was a very
traumatic period as a child, asyou can imagine, of not having
access to your parents and beingre-educated essentially to.
You know, what you say is thecommunist religion of an atheist
belief system, um, that thereis no God and science and all

(49:55):
that which.
Nothing's wrong with science,but you know, when you couple it
like that, it's just it createsits own delusion, um, so, yeah,
that was just um reallyinteresting that um he, uh,
nikita Khrushchev also said atone point that he was going to
show the last.
Was it the last priest or thelast believer standing on

(50:17):
national television?

Speaker 2 (50:21):
yes, I can say that during Brezhnev time.
Probably I was born during theBrezhnev time.
I was born in the Brezhnev time, I was born in 1968.
And when I grew up, suchrestrictions, at least in Kiev,

(50:42):
were a little bit relaxed.
Because I remember when I visitmy friend, her grandmother was
religious and she had icons athome.
She lived with her grandmother,my friend, and my friend told
me oh, my grandmother is verybackward, she still believes in
God.
A couple of times hergrandmother kept religious books

(51:07):
and also icons at home.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, I mean, and it seems like under Brezhnev there
was more of a gradual relaxationfrom religious persecution, and
then that was from 1964 to 1982that he was in power, and then
we had the Gorbachev and morereligious freedom there from
1985 to 1991, where theyactually made churches be legal.

(51:34):
91, where they actually madechurches be legal and so people
could actually publish differentmaterials, have seminary, do
charitable work and things likethat.
So it's interesting that.
But during the Khrushchevperiod too, people who were
believers had to be verycreative in how they gathered
and how they expressed theirfaith.
Some places, whether it wassynagogues or home churches,

(51:58):
were more like nocturnalchurches.
Home churches that you knowessentially had to practice
their faith.
You know, away from the eyes orwhen everybody was asleep, was
the only time that they couldactually express, to get their
faith together within groups,even if it would look like
really small groups so that theywouldn't get caught.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yes, Jewish people also, many of them prefer to
pray at home or somebody homeand don't go to synagogue.
Because they very soon figureout, if you go to synagogue,
then KGB then invite you for andthen you fight for your job.
Conversation they call itconversation, yes, but yes,

(52:44):
consequences of thisconversation that you fight for
your job, you're expelled fromuniversity and have other
problems.
So it was not pleasant and, yes, people start to pray more at
home and don't attend the onlyone open synagogue in Kyiv.
In pre-revolutionary time, inbeginning of 20th century, in

(53:11):
Kyiv was 20 synagogues.
In Soviet time was only oneopen synagogue.
You can see the big differencebetween approach of Tsarist
authorities and Sovietauthorities towards the religion
.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Wow, yeah, that's definitely incredible.
And the other thing that wasinteresting when the religious
persecution kind of subsided,they created and I don't know
under what policy or what thatwould be called, but essentially
where if you wanted to expressyour faith, you had to register

(53:48):
the synagogue, the church,wherever that is.
You had to be registered churchin order to operate and if you
weren't registered there wasadditional penalties for that.
But to be registered, you werealso under more of the eye of
the government.
They needed to know whatsermons you were doing, who was
there, they had to get a reportof all the people in attendance

(54:11):
and everything else.
So I'd love for you to speak alittle more on that period and
why that was the case, how thatkind of came about.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
I saw in documents that Soviet authorities
continuously closed the we cansay home prayer houses because
they want all religious life tokeep under their control.
And Jewish people that was asignificant part of the

(54:41):
population before World War II.
Jews made 26% of the population.
After the war of course lessbecause many perished in the
Holocaust.
They complained that there wasnot enough space in one
synagogue.
We cannot really go there.
Really religious Jews cannottake public transportation on

(55:05):
Jewish holidays.
We cannot go by feet.
Old people, synagogues far awayfrom our home, and authorities
never allowed to open secondsynagogue and they turned other
two synagogues that theyconfiscated, actually three
synagogues.
One was dining hall for someplant, that was a farmer

(55:31):
synagogue on Galsky Square.
Now it's Victory Square.
Other synagogue in downtown ofKyiv was turned to puppet
theater and one more synagoguewas turned to movie theater.
So they left only one synagogue,not in downtown but in more

(55:53):
remote Padol or Padil in theUkrainian district, and they
never want to hear a complaintof Jews that there's not enough
space, that it's overcrowdedduring Jewish holidays, because
it only was for 5,000 people andin Kiev, even after World War
II, it was over 100,000 Jewishpeople.

(56:15):
And like your problem, you don'thave space, it's your problem.
At the same time they did notallow them a prayer at home.
If they heard that somebodyorganized prayer house and Jews
should pray 10 men together tocreate a so-called minyan, by
basically order of religion,religion by religious custom.

(56:39):
If they heard that in someprivate house come 10 Jews pray
together, they immediately come,confiscate Jewish religious
books and sometimes theythreaten to confiscate even an
apartment from the owner if theywill continue these meetings,

(57:00):
prayer meetings.
I am sure that the samepersecution was against
Christian religion and otherreligions in the Soviet Union,
because before the revolution inKieviv were hundreds of
churches In Soviet times wereopen very few churches and some

(57:24):
churches were turned to for someother purposes and other
churches were completelydestroyed, and among them were
some beautiful churches thatwere basically architectural
landmarks for Kiev, but in 1930sSoviet authorities destroyed

(57:44):
them.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
And that was under Stalin's rule, right, because
even Lenin didn't touch some ofthose architectures, because he
still seen the value in them andwith Stalin he just demolished
it.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Yeah, 1930s, under Stalin's rule, when these
churches were explored in Moscow, in Kiev, in other parts,
cities and towns in the SovietUnion, and after the collapse of
the Soviet regime.
Finally, some of these churcheswere rebuilt as a replica of

(58:17):
previously existed churches.
For example, in Kiev,mikhailovsky Cathedral that just
across, basically, of Sofia,the beautiful cathedral.
But it's a replica becauseoriginal cathedral was destroyed
in 1930s during Stalin's rule,and many other churches, as I

(58:41):
said, were closed.
So people have a problem tofind a place where they can pray
and a few remaining churcheswere under strict observation of
KGB.
Romanian churches were understrict observation of KGB.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, I remember seeing during that destruction
in the 30s of the churches, justthey were collecting like bells
.
There was like hundreds ofbells, church bells that were,
and you know, confiscating thewealth of the church too and
things that were you knowvaluables out of there.
So it was a devastating timefor sure.

(59:17):
Well, I want to honor your time.
I'm going to wrap up withasking you some of the ending
questions that I have, andactually, before we get into
that, I'd love to get into.
You have a few books out.
One you have coming out soonand the one you have written
recently too is called JewishCity or Inferno of Russian

(59:40):
Israel a history of the Jews inKiev before 1917.
So I'd love for you to justshare a little bit about your
work on that book there.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Thank you very much.
Five generations of my familylived in Kyiv, ukraine, and I
was always interested in thehistory of Jews in my native
city, in Kyiv, but this historynever was written and I decided
that it's my mission to writethe history of Jews in Kyiv,

(01:00:14):
where I was one of the largestJewish communities in the
Russian Empire and then in theSoviet Union and basically even
during the Russian Empire.
My book covered a period fromthe 10th century until 1917, but
most of the book about thesecond half of the 19th,

(01:00:34):
beginning of the 20th centuryuntil 1917, but most of the book
about second half of 19thbeginning of 20th century.
Jews faced many discrimination,anti-semitism and persecution.
However, despite of all thispersecution and discrimination,
they liked it as a beautifulcity.

(01:00:55):
They contributed a lot indevelopment of the city.
There were several families ofmasonites who built a lot of
buildings that are still in usein Kiev, for example, brodsky
family, who were sugar tycoon.

(01:01:15):
They built Bessarabsky market.
They built first infectiondisease hospital in Kyiv.
That was very needed becauseKyiv periodically suffered from
cholera and other epidemicdiseases.
They built together.

(01:01:36):
They contribute money to aconstruction Kyiv Polytechnical
Institute that now KyivPolytechnical University is
building, still in use from late19th, beginning of 20th century
and Brodsky family built twosynagogues in Kiev.
So I try to see the balancebetween Jewish city, where

(01:02:05):
exists one of the largest Jewishcommunity, and persecution of
Jews, anti-jewish violenceduring 1881 pogrom and the 1905
pogrom and then organized by theanti-Semitic circle, the Baylis

(01:02:25):
affair.
That was a ritual murder,accusation of Jews that they
used Christian blood forreligious purposes.
Of course it's an absurd,nonsense accusation because Jews
don't use any blood for anyreligious purposes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Yeah, it's not really in their religious practices.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
So this is all I describe in my book about the
history of Jews in Kiev Jewishcity, or inferno of Russian
Israel.
And my book about the historyof Jews in Kyiv Jewish city, or
inferno of Russian Israel.
And my book received a ChoiceOutstanding Academic Book Award
as one of the best academicbooks.

(01:03:07):
Only like 5% academic booksreceive this award.
However, when I wrote this book, I intentionally wrote it in
scholarly, popular style thatnot only specialists on Jewish
history but common people couldread it and understand
everything that is in this book,and I put there lots of

(01:03:30):
illustrations, maps and makethis history even more, we can
say, visible for the people.
This is my book about thehistory of Jews in Kyiv, my new
book, A Bitter War of MemoryBabi Yar, massacre after mass,

(01:03:55):
and commemoration about thegreatest tragedy in Jewish
history of Kievan Jews, whenalmost half of the Jewish
population of Kiev were killedby Nazis in Babi Yar.
Basically all Jews who remainedin the city were killed by

(01:04:17):
Nazis and local collaborators inKiev during occupation Survived
those who went to evacuation toUral, Siberia, Central Asian
Republics of Soviet Union andthose who fought on the front,
but many women, children,elderly people did not have a

(01:04:41):
chance to leave the city becauseSoviet government did not
evacuate people.
Soviet government evacuatedmilitary plants with workers.
They worried how to survive, howtheir regime survived.
They did not worry what wouldhappen with people.
So many women, especially withsmall children, elderly people

(01:05:02):
that did not work on militaryplans, that were already retired
, and many women before WorldWar II were housewives could not
leave the city and they allwere killed by Nazis in Babi Yar
ravine and by my calculationsthey were killed from 70,000 to

(01:05:24):
80,000 Jewish people.
And a second crime for thesepeople, by basically killing
their memory, committed Sovietregime, soviet regime after
World War II, become quiteanti-Semitic and they denied
that Holocaust happened at all.

(01:05:45):
They said that all Sovietpeople suffer equally, the
universal suffering of Sovietpeople.
But they ignored orintentionally, due to their
anti-Semitism, did not want toadmit that only Jewish people

(01:06:06):
and Roma were completely killedon base of their ethnicity.
They were killed also Russian,ukrainian people, but they were
either partisans or prisoners ofthe war, resistance fighters,
but not really all peopletogether, including women and

(01:06:30):
small children and elderlypeople, women and small children
and elderly people.
So Soviets did not build amonument for a long time and
when finally they built monumentin 1976, they said it took key
ones.
They again did not mention thatmajor victims of Bab and Yarm

(01:06:53):
were Jewish people.
There was not even a word aboutJews, and many Jewish people of
course took it as insult formemory of their relatives and
friends who perished in Babi Yar.
So this why Bitter memory?

(01:07:17):
Because soviets provide theirown concept that suffer.
All soviet people and jewishpeople try commemorate their
jewish victims and they werepunished for this.
They were blamed in jewishnationalism and some of them
were arrested.
Some received just two weeks inprison, but others were

(01:07:42):
basically accused in Zionism,jewish nationalism, and received
real terms like three, fiveyears in prison, just for their
attempt to tell people the truththat in Babi Yar the majority
of people who perished wereJewish people.
Debates about Babi Yar continuein modern Ukraine because, again

(01:08:06):
, some people did not want toadmit that the majority of
victims of Babi Yar were Jewish.
There was meet that majority ofvictims of Babi Yar were Jewish
.
There was a significantresistance of attempt to build a
Holocaust museum in Babi Yaralready after collapse of
communism.
So we can say this bitter warof memory continue until present

(01:08:32):
, and war that started Russiaagainst Ukraine even made
everything more complicatedbecause, yes, there was already
organization by Biyar HolocaustMemorial Center that raised
funds and began construction ofmuseum there, but war of course

(01:08:54):
stopped that.
Raised funds and beganconstruction of museums there,
but war of course stopped allthese construction projects.
Money all disappeared becausethey went to war purposes and
help of refugees from currentwar.
I hope that one day, when warends, that there will be a built

(01:09:15):
museum that commemorates allvictims of Babineyer.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you've produced that work,
important history piece thatpeople can have to read and
study on.
It is interesting, though,because even in studying of the
year that my grandmother wastaken, she wasn't Jewish, and so
during 1943 1941 was when theGermans occupied the territory

(01:09:43):
of Taganrog, russia, which waslike really close to the border
Ukraine.
From doing further research, Idiscovered that they actually
took the Jews first out of thetown and they were told that
they were taken to the ghetto,but later people found that they
were shot right on theoutskirts of the city.
So it was very clear that theJewish got a different treatment

(01:10:05):
than the Russian citizensbecause, yes, my grandmother was
taken from her home and sent toa concentration camp in Germany
as a labor, as a worker, butshe wasn't exterminated like the
Jews in the same city.
So there was a differentiationfor sure, based on that, just

(01:10:26):
studying that period of historyin that particular town.
So, yeah, well, I'm just sohonored to even have you share
different pieces, and I want towrap up by asking a few
questions, and one of them iswhat is the bravest thing that
Dr Victoria has done?

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
I think that the greatest thing that I've done is
that I've become professor ofhistory and my research in
Jewish history.
Because, yes, I heard lots ofsuggestions that it's impossible
.
You cannot become a historianin the Soviet Union.

(01:11:04):
Then, when I came to the UnitedStates, I again heard you need
to change your profession.
There is a good field program,testers and so on, but I always
want to be a historian, so I didnot listen to this advice and
continue doing that.

(01:11:24):
I think meaningful for me andother people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
I love that.
That is so encouraging andinspiring, I'm sure to so many
people too.
Don't give up on your dreams,people.
You know what you want to do.
Keep going right.
What would you say is the bestadvice that someone gave you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
The best advice that I heard at my young age, when I
was about 20 or even less yearsold don't follow blindly any
advice.
Analyze what people suggest toyou, take all advice, but then

(01:12:02):
critically think about them.
What is good for you, what isbad for you?
Finally, it's your decision,not advice, not people who gave
advice, but it should be yourdecision after you analyze all
information.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Yeah, that's a good piece of advice.
Right there, I also heard thatyou know, when you receive
advice, you kind of examine theperson giving it.
Are they an expert in that?
Is this something they have avoice to speak on, or is their
life admirable and what you'retrying to do that aligns with
that?
So I love that.
And then the last question iswhat are two, three books that

(01:12:40):
impacted your life or werepivotal, transformational for
you?

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
I can first of all say about history of Jewish
people by historian Simon inRussian he is Semyon Dubnol.
During Soviet time all Jewishhistory was forbidden in Soviet
Union and books from 1930s untilmid-1980s or even later, later

(01:13:09):
1980s, were in special storageplace and were not allowed to be
given to anybody.
But my good luck is that duringPerestroika this attitude
changed and I readpre-revolutionary published

(01:13:31):
books by Semyon Dubnov that werein Kyiv Historical Library and
they opened for me 5,000 yearsof Jewish history and it was
written very well and I enjoyreading them and I discover for

(01:13:52):
myself this very rich, verycomplicated and in some way also
very tragical history.
Other book I can mention othertwo books, because you said two
or three of them A book byVladimir Zeev-Zhabatinsky, a

(01:14:15):
collection of his essays it'scalled Fulitans, but it's more
essays and especially an essaythat he wrote about Bailey's
case, where he wrote whensomebody blames you that you use
blood for some ritual purposes,enough to justify yourself,

(01:14:39):
people still would not believein this.
Enough to say I'm not guilty,enough to say that you're so
good to people.
People don't believe in this.
Only when Jews will have theirown state and stop basically
make excuses, then other peoplewill respect you.

(01:15:03):
So basically yes, basicallyit's advice never consider
yourself a person of second orthird sort, consider yourself
equal among equal.
And if, in this particular case, russian Empire or later Soviet

(01:15:27):
Union, did not give Jewsequality, many Jews immigrate
and leave these countries to beequal among equal.
In America, in Israel, when itwas created, state of Israel.
This, I think, is very goodadvice.
And third book, actually byanti-Semitic author Vasily

(01:15:50):
Shulgin.
I wrote an article about himand his anti-Semitism.
Vasily Shulgin, I wrote anarticle about him and his
anti-Semitism.
But at the same time he was amonarchist anti-Semite, a member
of the Russian state Duma, butat the same time he was an
eyewitness of very dramatic andcrucial events in the history of

(01:16:11):
the Russian Empire and theearly Soviet Union.
So he wrote a trilogy.
The first book was years, thendays, and then 1920, about year
1920.

(01:16:33):
About the year 1920.
So he described decades beforethe February Revolution, so from
1907 to 1917.
And then he described theFebruary Revolution in Russia
and then the Civil War andespecially 1920, and analyzed

(01:16:55):
why the white movement wasdefeated in Russia.
He was from Kiev, he was Kievan, he honestly and very strongly

(01:17:19):
was attached to his native city.
He actually published newspaperK1, and he tried, from his
point of view but honest,describe political events and
what this book taught me.
It was different view onrevolution that I studied at
school and even university thatit was heroic deeds,
liberalization of people.
He described revolution andcivil war in Russia as very
bloody events that make reallybrutal both sides.

(01:17:45):
He was a member of a whitemonarchical movement, but he
tried to tell the truth aboutthis movement also movement, but
he tried to tell truth aboutthis movement also.
He said that Bolsheviks treatus like beasts and we in
response become beasts also.
We also kill them just becausewe hate them.

(01:18:07):
And this atmosphere of hatredthat developed in the country
and violence basically, was agreat discovery for me that
influenced my points of view.
If before I thought in whatrevolutionary party I would be
if I live in the beginning ofthe 20th century to fight
against Zara's regime, after Iread the work of Shulgin I

(01:18:31):
thought no, I rather would be acounter-revolutionary party
because I hate all this violenceand pogroms that create Russian
revolution.
Basically, the Bolshevik regimethat came to power after

(01:18:53):
revolution and civil war becomemuch more brutal and bloody, as
it was Zarek's regime.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
That is interesting to havesuch a blunt point of view that
just says things how it is,without the lens of this or that
side.
Well, Dr Victoria, thank you somuch for your time.
I so appreciate thisconversation and I hope the
listeners learned something newtoday from listening to it as

(01:19:22):
well.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
Thank you very much for your attention and thank you
again for inviting me for thispodcast.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare
podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for listening to the ones
who dare podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
Thank you.