March 4, 2025 • 60 mins
Harrison Scott Key—winner of the Thurber Prize, bestselling author of How to Stay Married: The Most Insane Love Story Ever Told, and a viral TEDx speaker whose work has been featured in The New York Times and McSweeney’s. Harrison shares his raw, humorous journey through love, betrayal, and healing, revealing how his personal experience with infidelity reshaped his understanding of marriage and community.
In this episode, we cover:
• A candid look at marriage dynamics through Harrison's personal anecdotes
• How humor becomes a powerful tool for processing pain
• The vital role of community support during times of emotional turmoil
• Practical strategies for coping with infidelity and rebuilding trust
• The transformative impact of self-reflection and vulnerability
• Harrison’s journey from heartbreak to embracing unconditional love and forgiveness
Tune in for practical insights and inspiring stories that remind us all that even in the darkest moments, there’s a path to healing and hope. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear that resilience and transformation are possible.
Link to Harrison Scott Key:
harrisonscottkey.com
-Links-
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You guys are going to want to hear this vulnerable
episode that will make you laugh, ponder and, hopefully, examine
your relationships.
Harrison Scott Key, winner ofThurber Prize, best-selling
author of three memoirs how toStay Married the Most Insane
Love Story Ever Told, which isthe book that we'll be talking
about with him in this episode.
He also wrote Congratulations,who Are you Again, and the
(00:22):
World's Largest man.
Congratulations, who Are youAgain, and the World's Largest
man.
He's a viral TEDx speaker,writer featured in the New York
Times, and McSweeney's, astoryteller who has transformed
American humor.
I've actually discovered thisbook on someone's Instagram
story, believe it or not, andthis person vouched that they
could not put it down.
And I trusted them because Iactually met them in person.
So I got the book, read it inlike three days.
(00:44):
It was mind blown at how muchit pulled on my heartstrings and
also made me laugh and cry allat once.
And this book is so raw.
Guys, it is a really, reallyrare book.
It's raw, it has severalF-bombs in it and it's a real
inside look of a man who'sdiscovered his wife having an
affair.
Who's discovered his wifehaving an affair.
(01:05):
This book is also aboutcommunity, about human
brokenness and so much more, andthat is why I love this book.
And so when I read it I waslike I need to get Harrison
Skaki on the podcast, but Iwasn't sure if he would be
willing to come on, andthankfully he said yes.
So let's get into the episodewith Harrison Skaki.
Hey friends, welcome to theOnes who Dared podcast, where
(01:26):
stories of courage are elevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here.
Harrison Scott Key, welcome tothe Once we Dare podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Well, I hope I dare in this interview.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, well, I think you sure as heck dared because
your story was really impactful.
I just said earlier that Ifinished your book in about
three days.
It was I couldn't put it down.
It just it was so impactful.
Because it's not often that youhave someone share such
intimate personal details of amarriage and your book is called
(02:18):
how to Stay Married and theMost Insane Love Story Ever Told
.
Now, why would you think, inyour perspective, that this is
the most insane love story?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
ever told.
Well, that's like a lot of mywriting.
That subtitle is a totalexaggeration on some part,
because every marriage thatfalls apart is its own insane
love story.
You know, because of the natureof this particular podcast, I
(02:51):
mean, I think it's safe to saythat many of your listeners
would understand that that'salso a reference to the Bible
and you know, in the 80s therewas a version, there was a
translation of the Bible thatwas marketed as the greatest
story ever told, and so therewas a little there's a little
(03:12):
sort of poetic subtle hinting atthose themes in the book too,
with that subtitle.
But what's crazy about ours isand I think this is pretty of,
uh, the majority of people whoread the book.
And no, there are so many pointsin the book that you are asking
(03:32):
how in the world will these twopeople stay married?
And that's the promise of thetitle.
How to stay married is almostas what creates the suspense of
the book, in a way, because youread it and you start reading it
and you're like, oh okay, I seethings are bad, and then they
get good and you're, and thenthey get really bad again, and
(03:53):
then they get really, really bad, and even up until like the
last couple of chapters.
I think some readers havereached out to me and said that
they still weren't sure we weregoing to stay married, even as
we got toward the very end.
And so there's just.
There are so many twists andturns that the fact that Lauren
and I are still married ispretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, and I love how you used a lot of humor in that
too.
And this guy named Chad is.
She had the affair with whatyou name him, Chad, Um, but the
guy who wears cargo shorts onpurpose, I mean, it's just.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I feel bad for the cargo shorted.
Uh, I also.
I've had a number of actualChad's.
That's not his name in reallife.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, it's close, but that's not his name.
Uh, but I've had some realpeople named Chad who come up to
me and they're like thanks, man, like you really ruined it for
the rest of us.
Or everybody makes fun of me.
Now I'm like I'm sorry, I don'tknow many Chads.
I was not hoping to hurtanybody's feelings.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, well, it's interesting because, well, right
now, in our modern culture, theterm Chad you probably know
because you have teenage kids,and it's used as someone who's
like the jock in school, likethe hot guy you know, the one
that everybody wants to be with.
So I don't know if you knewthat using that reference like a
Chad, but I think in yours it'smore of like this random guy
(05:20):
who's your neighbor.
And so the story really is yourwife has an affair with your
neighbor, someone that you knowand trust, and you're working
hard and you're doing to providefor your family, you're doing
what you think is the rightthing to do, and essentially you
come across and discover thisunfortunate news and I would say
(05:41):
that your reaction to theaffair is surprising and it also
surprised your wife.
Why do you think your wife wassurprised and also angry at your
reaction?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, you know, when you're going through something
like this, both spouses the onewho's having an affair or doing
whatever it is to end themarriage and then the one who
discovers that this is happeningboth of you kind of lose your
minds a little bit.
I mean, and I really mean thatyou're everything that you think
(06:15):
you know is has to be sort ofrelearned from the beginning,
and this goes for both partiesin a marriage like that.
And I think Lauren was Laurenhad convinced herself and I talk
about this in the book and shehas said this, and she you know,
she writes a chapter in thebook and she says this in her
chapter as well she reallythought I was going to be very
(06:39):
happy that we were gettingdivorced and which, which.
That was like the when sheconfessed that to me that she
thought I would be excited aboutthis, that I could move on and
have my life, and she thought Iwould.
You know, the night that shetold me she was sure I was going
to pack up and move out, whichis what she wanted.
And she thought, you know, mymom lived a few miles away.
(07:03):
Maybe I'd go stay with my momor one of my buddies, and then
she thought I would want to moveto New York because I was a
writer, that I wanted this wholeother life that didn't involve
her.
She really thought I would dothat.
She thought I'd be excitedabout that.
When she confessed that to melater, everything started to
(07:23):
make sense.
I'm like oh, she had no like.
Obviously I was blind.
I was blind to the affair.
I was blind about everythingthat led up to it, but she was
blind to she was pretty blindabout who I was.
If I was a kind of an idiotabout who she was, and at that
point we'd been married for 10years, I mean, it's not like we
didn't know each other.
She was so shocked that Ididn't leave.
(07:46):
She was really mad that Ididn't storm out.
I think she thought that herrevelation, her admission of
this affair I mean I didn'tcatch her in it at all.
She just told me, I think, shewas ready to end the marriage.
In fact she wanted to wait atthis.
This happened in the book.
This was in october of, uh, Idon't know seven, eight years
(08:11):
ago.
But when she first told me, uh,I, I think she said she they
were planning to wait untilafter christmas to to tell us,
meaning for her to tell me andfor chad tell his wife.
But then she she said shecouldn't keep the secret anymore
.
It was like making her sick.
It was like just kind of.
(08:32):
She kind of felt like she wasliving in a nightmare and she
really just wanted to get outwith it.
And the fact that I stayed Ieven offered her she could stay
in the master bedroom I wouldjust like sleep in my office or
the guest bedroom, um, because Ican sleep anywhere and she
couldn't.
She was just so shocked by allof that and honestly it was.
(08:53):
You know you have some choiceswhen this happens.
You know that you have to dosomething, yeah, and you know
the typical responses are uhwhat?
Fight, flight or freeze.
You know you either fight thisor you run away or freeze, as
you don't know what to do.
So you're just like a deer inthe headlights.
And I kind of combined allthree of those in my reaction.
I knew that if I reactedinstantly to the news, either
(09:18):
through anger, rage, pointingfingers, getting in a huge fight
, waking the girls up, bringingthem downstairs or, you know,
confronting Chad that nightAnything I did right then was
just going to make things worse.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Right, and the wild thing is he's your neighbor, so
it's like you know.
It's not he's somewhere out inanother state or something.
This is real proximity righthere, so the temptation to do
that would be real.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
One thing that helped is that he and his wife had
lived next to us for about sevenyears, but they now lived about
five minutes away, which thathelped a lot, because if he had
lived right next, I don't thinkI don't honestly the whole thing
would have gone downdifferently if he was still
right next door, but he was fiveminutes away.
So I was at least going to haveto get in my truck if I wanted
(10:06):
to confront this guy.
All that to say, I thought Ididn't know what to do.
I had no idea what to do when Igot this news, because I had.
I had a thousand things to do.
Immediately.
I had to think about the safetyof my family, meaning, where
were my, where were the girlsgoing to live?
You know, were they going tolive with Lauren?
Were they going to live with me?
Where was I going to live?
(10:27):
Was she going to move out?
What do I do about money?
Like you know, lauren and I aresharing all the same bank
accounts, and now she's she'sseeing this other guy.
I'm like, are they going totake all this money?
Are they going to?
You know, like, like, is heusing my debit card?
I didn't know.
I mean I had.
I had to go to the bank, I hadto talk to my employer and like
(10:47):
take a week off of work.
Like everything happened atonce.
And so I thought, um, the thebest I could hope for is at
least to confuse my wife.
I thought, if I confused her,meaning you know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Like not be as predictable.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I thought that would at least help.
That would buy me some time tofigure things out, and it did.
I mean she was.
She stayed at the house.
I stayed at the house, we sleptin separate bedrooms.
We the next morning we got thegirls ready for school.
It was all so weird.
It was so weird no-transcriptsort of understand.
(11:58):
All the understanding of who mywife was was out the window too
, and I didn't even know who Iwas at that point.
So, yeah, I was.
I thought, well, if I don'treally know what to do, then
doing something rash seemedfoolish.
So I just I stayed there and Iwas like we'll talk this out,
we'll figure this out.
Um, it wasn't as easy astalking it out, but um, but I
definitely everybody thinks theyknow how they're going to react
(12:19):
.
Yeah, and it's usually angerand they're like man, you know,
screw her, kick her out, throwher clothes in the yard.
But when it really happens andyou understand that well, I mean
, maybe that works.
If you're you know, if you don'thave any kids, I don't know,
but like we had children, I'mgonna go burn my wife's clothes
in the yard the night I find outshe's having an affair, because
I don't want my daughterslooking out the window and
(12:41):
seeing a fire in the front yard,like, like you know, you have
to think about all those thingsthat affect, and so, yeah, you
might feel anger and rage, youmight want to punch a hole in
the wall or, you know, I don'tknow, slash Chad's tires.
But do you really want to makethings worse than they already
are?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
All right, and go to jail.
You can murder the guy, right?
I mean it's like, yeah, I don'twant to go to jail Like they
live happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
if I go to jail as a typical man, I mean, the book,
you know, really charts mytransformation and Lauren's
transformation through a bunchof really terrible events.
But at the time I was just mad.
I was terribly mad and sad andI didn't want to lose my family,
I didn't want to lose my wife.
(13:25):
It seemed like it was too late.
I mean, she said, you know,like the night she told me I was
like you know, therapy, we canget therapy.
And she was like it's too latefor that, it's too late for all
that.
And so I felt like a man withno ideas, no solutions, no
answers.
And, um, I didn't.
I wouldn't say I was feelingcharitable toward my wife, but I
(13:49):
she had already made thingspretty bad and I was about to
find out how I had contributedto that.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, I think what I appreciate about your story and
the raw honesty of your storyand it's mixed with humor as
well, and you're a comedian, sothat you know makes sense Is
that, in a sense, you pull backthe curtain of humanity, right,
and when you do that, you allowus to see ourselves in your
story, because at the end of theday, we are all broken people
to a degree, right, and we comeinto a marriage thinking that
this is going to be perfect, theperson you're marrying is
(14:23):
perfect, you think probablyhighly of yourself to some
degree, and no one at the daythat they do the vows, imagine
that this person that they'relooking into the eyes and making
a promise is going to cheat onthem, is going to break their
heart.
And yet, when two broken peopleget together, life happens, and
(14:47):
so I just want you to kind ofspeak into that to the listener
of perception versus reality andto kind of draw that curtain
back a little bit in here.
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Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you said it.
I mean, you know, when you getmarried, you just can't fathom
anything like this happening.
At least I couldn't.
I mean, maybe some people can.
I could not get from two peoplewho really love each other at
(16:06):
the altar to that moment in myliving room when my wife said
and I, you know, still rememberthe words we sat down.
I knew that she wanted to talk.
Um, finally, we, after dinner,we cleaned the kitchen and got
the girls to bed and we'resitting there and she said she
sat down and I sat down andsomething very big was clearly
about to happen.
I knew it, I didn't know what.
And she said I want a divorce.
(16:27):
And there was a pause and Isaid why?
And there was a pause and shesaid I'm in love with somebody
else.
And there was another pause andI said and to get to that point
from the altar, 10 years before, um, I think the thing that
(16:50):
that hit me the hardest in thatmoment was realizing you know,
I'm a, I write books and mostlywrite books about things I've
experienced, and mostly writebooks about things I've
experienced, and so I'm used towriting about my life, thinking
about my life, thinking,remembering things.
I mean I get paid to rememberand write it down and try to
(17:14):
draw some sort of universalhuman experience wisdom from
those stories, and I try to makethem funny when they're funny,
and they often are.
I let them be sad when they'resad, and they often are.
But I like to be funny and Ilike to remember and I like to
tell people my stories.
And so when she told me thatnight that she wanted a divorce
(17:35):
because she was in love withsomeone else, it was like
falling into a really deep holecontinually, because I knew
instantly that at least the past10 years of my life had been
something of a lie, that I hadmissed things, that I had missed
(17:55):
things and she had hiddenthings.
Both of those things were true,one was her fault, one was mine
.
It was a dizzying feeling andit was horrifying just because I
was like, wow, the story I havebeen telling myself and in some
way the world about my life hasbeen a lie, and so and that's,
(18:17):
that's your whole identity, andso my whole identity was called
into question in that moment.
It was pretty awful.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, and also the other thing that stood out to me
is, if you read the book andthis is a bit of a spoiler but
you guys start to reconcile andyou work on your marriage, you
essentially look inward toyourself and see what are you
know your contribution, like yousaid, what are some things?
(18:46):
How have I contributed?
Instead of just seeing themonster in her right, which we
always tend to blame the otherperson when something bad
happens.
It's not us, it's them.
But you really wentintrospective and you started to
see all the ways that you havefailed and you started to
reconcile and there was abeautiful part to the story, but
it was the middle of the bookand I'm like what is gonna
(19:08):
happen next?
It can't be the end, right?
Um, and then in that story youfind that she's with the guy
again and and this is a really Imean your story made cry and
just really ponder abouthumanity and appreciate your raw
, honest truth.
But in that moment, where yourwife was in her darkest moments,
(19:32):
there was a pivotal thing thathappened to you.
Can you speak into that, likewhy was that the path that you
chose and what was going oninwardly when you decided to
come and actually help her?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
when she betrayed you essentially the second time
around are you talking about the, the moment near the end of the
book?
Um?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
you know when all this went down.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Uh, what you said is true.
It's so easy to point thefinger at the person who had the
affair.
Yeah, that's such an obviousbreach of trust.
It's such an obvious breach oftrust, it's such an obvious
betrayal.
It's the highest treason youcan imagine in a human life is
(20:32):
to be betrayed like that.
And so it's just so easy topoint the finger and see red.
And my wife is a bad person.
She's a very, very bad personand something is wrong with her.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Right, and in a sense , does it not make you feel a
little more righteous becauseyou weren't the bad guy?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's uh, it's a, very it's
a, it's a terrible temptation.
I mean the worst thing that canhappen to you.
Uh, when you find out yourspouse is having an affair, the
worst thing that happens is youstart to you.
That is the self-righteousnessthat you feel because you know
(21:07):
it's real.
Like it, the anger is righteousanger.
That is a.
That is a bad thing, that is avery bad thing, and it's so rare
that humans get to experiencean actual, really bad thing
being done to them, a crime,whether it's a crime of the
heart or whatever, and it'sintoxicating at first.
(21:27):
Wow, my wife is very bad, wemust fix you and I'm going to be
nice and I'm going to help fixyou.
That is the temptation offinding out something like this.
And so early on, after sheconfessed that and it was kind
of unclear if we were going toreconcile, she clearly, I think
my wife, did not realize howhard it was going to be.
(21:50):
She just thought, like we saidearlier, she thought, hey, I
want a divorce and I'd be likefine, geez, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, go live with this guy, get out of here.
I've been waiting on thismoment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And when I didn't do that, everything got much more
complicated for her and I thinkshe started to see that and
started to see that she hadn'treally thought through her plan,
what she was going to do withherself, her job, uh, our kids.
And, um, during that time, oneof my best friends and I say
(22:24):
this in the book, he, he's atherapist and he said, just,
quite, you know, he would callme every other day and check on
me and he knew that we werestill in the house together, but
everything was very uncertainand we weren't really talking,
naturally, except for, like,figuring out what's for dinner
and the kids.
And he said you know, insituations like this, when a
(22:46):
couple has had an affair, um, ifthey reconcile and this guy
spoke with experience as atherapist he said, when couples
reconcile after something likethis, it's usually because the
person who was betrayed takessome ownership in what happened.
He said, without that, it justdoesn't work, it just.
He said it just doesn't work.
And he wasn't, uh, exhorting me, he was not telling me what to
(23:10):
do, he was just giving me anobservation like this kind of
thing is only resolved when theperson in your position,
harrison, acknowledges somecontribution to the problem and
that really, you know, as awriter who writes about himself,
that completely gelled with myown experience, Because when
(23:30):
you're writing your own story,it's best to make yourself the
villain.
You're the idiot, you're the onewho's making mistakes, you're
the one who doesn't understand,and I'm like that makes total
sense.
So I really started to thinkabout okay, yeah, I, I work a
lot.
Okay, I started there.
I work a lot like a lot ofbreadwinners, a lot of men, not
(23:52):
not always men in marriages, butoften, you know, I'm the one
who's gone, I'm the one who'straveling for work.
I started there and then, asyou see in the book, I just made
this huge list from A to Z ofeverything that might have made
it easy for Lauren to want toleave.
Now my best friend said look,this doesn't mean it's your
(24:14):
fault when you contribute tosomething like this.
We're not saying the affair isyour fault, don't blame yourself
.
But how did you make it easy?
How did you make that seem likea preferable option for your
wife?
Wow, yeah, and so I reallyobviously, like you know,
working, traveling for work thatdoesn't make somebody have an
affair, being I don't know,demanding or being an asshole or
(24:41):
picking on your wife too muchor your husband or whatever.
You're being tight with moneyor like.
None of those things makehaving an affair okay, but they
definitely make it maybe not funto be married to you, and so I
really had to look long and hardat all of those ways that I had
made my marriage not a very funplace to be.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Those ways that I had made my marriage not a very fun
place to be.
Wow, I love that, because youwent and just said what is it?
How am I contributing to that?
And I think we can all examinethat in ourselves, whichever
state of marriage you're inright now, Because and I think
(25:25):
that's the gift that you give tothe reader with your book is
that if you are married and it'stitled how to stay married, so
it really helps you to examineyourself and say, okay, what am
I doing?
That may make me someone who'sunlikable or maybe not pleasant
to be with, or I've heard this,someone said this and I don't
remember who it is to givecredit to.
But the question that you askyourself is would I like to be
married to me?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Would I like to be married to me.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
That's a great question Because I think if
you're really honest withyourself, you would find ways
that you could improve.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Well, yeah, duh, I mean like, of course.
I mean you know what one of thethings I love most about
Christianity is, at least Iguess what you would call like
confessional Christianity, thesort of those universal
(26:18):
propositions that mostChristians throughout history
have agreed that like throughthings like the Apostles' Creed
or the Nicene Creed, whateveryou know, which touch on
Catholicism and Episcopals andPresbyterians and whatnot, then
you know, if you are familiarwith any of that history, you
(26:38):
know that the Bible is prettyclear that humans are just prone
to malice, that we love to.
We are selfish beings at best,even if we're not mean and cruel
, we are selfish.
Even the kindest person thinksthey are the center of the
(27:01):
universe and has to workcontinually to remind themselves
that they are not the center ofthe universe and has to work
continually to remind themselvesthat they are not the center of
the universe.
I love that about the bible.
That's my favorite.
That's personally one of my um,something I have to be reminded
of constantly, and and so itwas.
It was very natural to be likeokay, all right, you know what.
(27:21):
You know.
What does Jesus say?
You know, don't you know the?
Don't point out the speck insomeone else's eye when you
haven't looked at the beam inyour own eye, and so that's.
That's what I was doing.
I mean, I was.
I didn't mean for this to be areligious book, I didn't mean
for it to be a Christian book.
You know, it's the only book,as far as I know, that's been
(27:47):
nominated for book of the yearby Christianity Today.
That has, you know, 13 F-bombsin it.
That's pretty rare, but I doknow this.
I've grown up in the church andyou could say that, you know, I
adhere to, like a Christianhumanism.
You know, and I go, I talkabout that in the book.
I'm like I didn't know what todo.
I was totally bereft of answersand so I immediately went to
(28:11):
like well, what do I believe?
Do I believe in love?
Do I believe in forgiveness?
And you know, if this hadhappened to a Buddhist or a
pagan or somebody else, theywould have had a different
reaction and it would have beena different book.
But for me, having grown up as aChristian and having wrestled
with my faith my whole life, I'mlike, look, it was like.
You know, when you buy a houseand you know the realtor takes
(28:34):
you into the backyard andthey're like there's a shed back
there.
There's some old tools in there.
If you want those, those comewith the house.
That was kind of like my faith.
This happened and I go into theshed in the backyard with all
these old 19th century tools youknow thing rusting hanging on a
rafter and I'm like, all right,one of them is marked
forgiveness, one of them ismarked, you know, humility, one
(28:57):
of them is marked compassion,and I'm like do these, are these
?
Is this real?
Because this would be reallynice if these things worked,
because I would like to staymarried, I would like to keep my
family intact, and so maybe Ishould use these tools.
And that's how it became sortof a book about looking in the
mirror and loving my neighbor asmyself, which takes on a whole
(29:18):
new residence when your neighboris having an affair with your
wife.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, and also what I appreciate about it is that you
were able to also see thebrokenness in your wife for what
it was, rather than the monsterthat she is, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You know, in that circumstance, yeah, like if I'm
going to look at myself and belike, wow, here are about two
dozen things that are reallywrong with me.
I know why I'm like that.
I think I know what kind ofmakes me like that, which helps
me to maybe address those issuesand fix them.
Selfishness, I can be verbally,I can be just mean.
(29:57):
I like to think it's beingfunny and I and it often starts
as humor and then it kind ofjust ends up cutting somebody
down.
If I can look at all that and belike, okay, I'm still a nice
guy, I can fix those things, I'mnot lost.
If I look at myself like that,then I have to look at her like
that too, like all right, well,you know, maybe she didn't do
all of these things that I did,but she did a few things.
(30:18):
She had an affair and you knowa few other things besides that
contributed to it.
So if I can look at myself withmercy, then I should be able to
look at her with mercy, and itwasn't easy, but it did make
hating her harder.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, because you were really real and honest.
What would you say to someonewho is, um, perhaps struggling?
Maybe they are going throughinfidelity and they're in the
middle of just feeling likethere is no hope for them?
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Speaker 2 (31:31):
Um, well, um, I would .
That's a tough place to be,that's a dark, dark place to be.
Um, you know, if they are, Imean, the conversation is a
little different, if you know.
I mean there there are athousand marriages and a
(31:52):
thousand marriages are fallingapart.
They're all falling apart forthe same and for very different
reasons.
Um, the dynamics of why it'sfalling apart have a lot to do
with how you listen to thosepeople, um, but you know, to
somebody who's in the thick ofit, um, I would say this uh, I
(32:13):
would say that you need to thinkabout every decision you make
at this point very carefully.
You don't want to make any rashdecisions about reconciling or
about separating, and you knowdivorcing or you know rash
decisions.
You know that might lead toviolence, to pain, to
(32:38):
unnecessary costs.
You know, don't, don't slashthe guy's tires because you're
going to end up, you know, goingto court for that.
Like, don't make rash decisions.
That's the first bit of advice.
But mostly I would say you needto talk to some people.
Um, the worst thing you can dowhen your marriage is in trouble
is to not talk to anyone aboutit, and there are a few people
(32:59):
you need to talk to.
If you have, you need a friend.
You need to talk to a friend.
They will.
Your friends are so importantbecause they are anchored in
reality and you are not.
When you're going through this,you are not in reality at all.
You are walking through aliving nightmare, but your real
(33:21):
friends can communicate with youin that nightmare while they
are just living a normal life.
It's really nice to be remindedthat people can live a normal
life, because you forget thatwhen your marriage is going
through absolute hell, you needfriends.
Friends that you can go have abeer with and just tell them
what's going on.
Friends that you can text andbe like not a good day man or
(33:44):
you know, want to go.
You know like can I come overfor dinner?
I don't feel like cooking,whatever.
If you don't have friends,that's a huge problem, a huge
red flag.
Friends that's a huge problem,a huge red flag.
Marriages when people who aremarried do not have friends
outside of their marriage,things get really bad really
quickly for most of us.
You've got to have that.
So that's first.
(34:05):
You've got to talk to yourfriend.
You've got to talk to a friend.
Preferably, you want to keepthe group small.
You don't want to tell 20friends about your marriage
falling apart, because then youspend all of your time updating
your 20 friends on the state ofyour marriage, which is too much
work.
It's exhausting.
So you need a small group, keepyour circle of trust small and
(34:25):
you need to get together withthem.
Often You'll find yourselflaughing, crying.
They'll be sharing from theirmarriages.
But I'm telling you, you got tohave a friend.
If you don't, you need to getone and you need to fix that
problem.
Two, you need to talk to atherapist, which is like a
licensed, paid friend.
They're similar to friends butthey're a little different.
They might sometimes you get atherapist who gives you good
(34:48):
advice.
Sometimes you have a therapistwho just listens and asks you
frustrating questions what doyou want?
How does that feel?
But you need somebody who'sexperienced in handling these
kinds of situations.
I was very lucky in that, of thethree close friends who I
brought in to help me throughthis, one was a pastor and not a
(35:13):
stuffy, pious guy at all.
I mean, he has tattoos and hecusses a little too much,
frankly, but in a good way.
He's an entertaining with hisprofanity.
But he had lived through hisown parents' divorce and he
counsels a lot of people at hischurch who are going through
things like this, and he's agreat listener.
He was one guy.
(35:34):
The other was a marriage andfamily therapist.
So perfect, there you go, youlucked out there and then the
third guy, uh, was a?
um high school english teacher,uh, and a writer, and so it was
nice to have another writer inmy group, um, who understood.
Uh, and all three guys are justreally compassionate.
(35:55):
You really need that.
But you also need a therapistwho's not necessarily going to
valorize whatever bad decisionsyou are announcing, like the
things my friends told me.
Don't have sex with yoursecretary.
I don't have a secretary, but Iwould have had sex with her if
I had had one.
I would have tried because Iwas sad and lonely and desperate
(36:18):
and mad, right, yeah?
Yeah, I mean, when somethinglike this happens to you in your
marriage, I found myselflonging and lusting for
affection.
Almost a year went by withoutany physical affection from my
wife, and so when all this wentdown, I'm like, yeah, I totally
(36:39):
get why you would want to go toa strip club in Las Vegas and
just like feel something.
And my friends were veryhelpful at keeping me from
making foolish decisions likethat, because I wouldn't have
been able to hide it from them,you know, um.
So talk to your friends, talk toa therapist you need to talk to
.
If you have a guide that youtalk to.
(37:00):
That's a really importantperson to talk to, whether it's,
you know, for me it was throughprayer and I had never prayed
as fervently and desperately asI prayed in those days and
honestly, it felt pretty good.
Like so many times when I prayI days, and honestly it felt
pretty good.
Like so many times when I pray,I just feel like I'm talking to
the sky and talking to myself.
(37:21):
But I did not feel like that.
In the midst of all this man, Iwas like pretty sure God was
there and I'm pretty sure ifhe's ever going to listen to me,
he's listening now.
Um, so you do need to like andthat's another way of saying
like.
Whatever your philosophy is,this is a great time to see if
it works.
This is a really great time tosee if your worldview is helpful
(37:43):
at helping you solve problemsand not live in hell.
Talk to your friends, talk to atherapist, talk to a guide and,
and most importantly, um, lookin the mirror, talk to yourself,
decide what's, maybe what aboutyou could be better.
We've already addressed that inthis conversation.
And then, lastly, you need totalk to your spouse.
(38:04):
You're going to be in eachother's lives probably for the
rest of your lives, especiallyif you have kids.
Yeah, so you don't want to burnthat bridge, you don't want to
say things that add to thebitterness and resentment that's
already there.
So you need to keep lines ofcommunication open with your
spouse as well, even if it'sjust through text or once a week
(38:24):
.
If y'all are separated I'm nottalking about I miss you, please
come back but just realizingthat life has to go on and maybe
you don't know if you're goingto get married or sorry, get
divorced, or you don't know ifyou're going to reconcile.
But keep that line ofcommunication as free of
manipulation as you can, evenwhile the worst is happening.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That's so good.
And what are three things thatyou would advise for someone on
how to stay married?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, I don't know man Read the book.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I guess I mean you do have to yeah, definitely read
the book.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It's not a how to, it's more how not to.
But there are a few little-.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Nuggets that you give .
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I drop things that I've learned, and that I've
learned, and, and that I'vestill feel true.
You know, three years after Iwrote, wrote it, um, I would say
, uh, that first of all, you geta lot of bad advice.
Um, you know, don't go to bedangry.
You get that advice a lot.
I think it's really great to goto bed angry.
(39:35):
Sometimes, rushing a fight,rushing a resolution, just leads
to another fight so many times.
And sometimes you just need tosay, all right, I'm just I'm
going to go to bed mad, she'sgoing to go to bed mad and I'm
going to stew a little bit andlet the heat kind of simmer and
(39:56):
come down, and then we can talkabout this tomorrow.
I've also learned that that'show my wife prefers to deal with
difficulty.
I love to talk, I am a writer,I'm a teacher, I give
presentations, I love to talk,and my wife does not.
She is an introvert and she hasto really chew on her feelings
(40:16):
and find the words beforethey're ready.
And I just learned that I'mlike, oh okay, sometimes it's
okay to go to bed mad, becauseshe needs another 12 hours to
sort of figure out exactly howshe wants to express what she's
feeling.
And honestly, even though Icould express how I'm feeling
any time of the day, that's notalways.
I'm not always telling thetruth.
I don't always know how I'mfeeling any time of the day.
Uh, that's not always.
I'm not always telling thetruth.
I don't always know how I feel,even when I feel like I want to
(40:40):
talk about how I feel.
Um, but how to stay married, um, realize that it might not be,
uh, might not always be fun tobe married to you.
Uh, you need to.
We've talked about that a lotin this conversation and that's
probably number one.
I do think you know I go backand forth on this, but I feel
(41:04):
pretty strongly that everymarriage needs therapy, and I
know some people will disagree.
Therapy in some ways is kind ofhaving a backlash.
Like you can have too muchtherapy, talk about your
feelings too much.
I do think you can go totherapy a little too much.
You know, I have friends whoare not uh, who are going from
what I can tell and in myconversations with them, their
(41:26):
lives are pretty great andthey're still in therapy every
week.
I think that can become aproblem after a while.
Um, it depends on who you areand the situations are all
different, but I do think mostmarriages need therapy.
Like you know, we didn't alwayshave therapy, it's relatively
new in human history, but so isdentistry, you know like, and we
all go to the dentist.
(41:46):
Nobody says you shouldn't go toa dentist.
I'm sure a hundred years agothere were people were like, ah,
who goes to the dentist?
Just, you know, get me thatwooden healthy, right?
Yeah, dentures are fine.
Or if it hurts, just yank itout or take, take some Tylenol
or whatever.
But most of us, all of us in amodern society, we go to the
dentist when something's wrongwith our teeth and even when
(42:07):
something's not wrong, we go fora cleaning to keep things from
getting wronger later.
That's therapy, that's all itis, and it is weird and it's so
scary.
That's one of the scariestthings you can do as a married
couple is to not be reallyhaving bad problems and to go to
therapy anyway.
That's scary because you knowyou're going to actually learn
(42:29):
about real problems that youhave that you weren't even
fighting about.
Why would you do that?
That you have, that you weren'teven fighting about, why would
you do that?
You know, like when you.
Sometimes you know when you.
It's like when you're sellingyour house and you have to bring
in a home inspector to makesure it's not falling apart.
You read things in thatinspection report you wish you
didn't know.
You're like this house looksfine, but somebody will buy it.
(42:52):
Why do you have to be so meanand say all these things about
my house and this report?
That's therapy and it can befrightening.
Um, so that's that's anotherbit of advice.
Is is go, is like you can goonce a month, obviously, if
you're in a crisis, I mean atour most intense.
Lauren had a therapist that shesaw weekly.
I had a therapist that I sawweekly and we had one that we
(43:15):
both saw together weekly.
So that's, that's a lot oftherapy.
And that was true for aboutthree to six months I mean,
because we were in the ER ofmarriage and we needed all of
that help and you we needed itless as time went on, um, and
then it went to like once amonth and then it went to like
once every two or three months.
(43:37):
But I would definitely advocatefor every marriage marriage to
get into therapy.
You will hear your partner saythings that they would never say
to you and they say themtypically like when they.
When you say it to a therapistin front of your spouse, you're
(43:58):
not mad.
Usually you're just like, well,this is kind of how I feel.
When that happens, it'll reallyshock and surprise you and it
will help and so I recommendthat.
Um, but there I could give youknow a list of 100 other things
to do.
But I think, realize that youare not perfect Everybody knows
they're not perfect but toreally realize, like you have
(44:19):
been such a way that your spousehas thought, wow, wouldn't it
be great not to be married tothis person anymore?
Every married person in theworld has had that thought.
You need to realize that.
And then going to therapy is agreat way to sort of talk about
that and become slightly better.
Getting better at being marrieddoesn't mean you're becoming
(44:42):
like a professional race cardriver, right, it just means
that you're more in tune.
You can hear things If you havea like I talk too much.
So I had to learn how to shutup and listen and really listen
and be patient, especially witha woman who doesn't volunteer
information willingly.
(45:02):
Um, because it's just not herpersonality.
You have to really pull it outof her.
And so I would find myself,after all, this sort of went
down and we were attemptingreconciliation, I would would
find Lauren like talking abouther feelings and I would
immediately start talking aboutmine.
I'm like, oh, she has feelings,I have feelings, we have
(45:22):
feelings in common, let's allshare our feelings.
And I'm like no, shut up.
Like shut up, harrison, justlike listen and be quiet.
Like great interviewers.
You know like silence is sogreat in an interview Cause,
like you ask a question, theydon't say anything.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
And what do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
What you want to do is you want to ask a follow-up
to kind of help them out, rightyou?
Speaker 1 (45:46):
want to go fill in the gap, like don't have any
silence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
The best interviewers don't do that.
They just sit there in thesilence and finally, what comes
out?
Something true comes outeventually, and that's pretty
true in marriage.
I had to learn that what Laurenhad to figure out, at least in
part, was how to volunteer theinformation.
So she had a whole differentjourney in therapy.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thank you so much for thatadvice.
The other thing, too, that Iwant to point out is community.
In your book was, through andthrough, the thing that just
brought it all together, whichwas so beautiful and seeing, and
you pointing out how I mean youmentioned friends, but your
church, your community, that is.
I truly believe that if we havepeople around us, we can make
(46:33):
it through anything.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Man, that is so true.
I would add that to the list ofadvice I talked earlier about
finding friends.
Community is a better word forit.
As you read in the book, ourcommunity is mostly through our
church, which I realize ispretty retro for a lot of people
in the 21st century and kind offeels kind of impossible for
(46:58):
people who just find religion,especially Christianity, too
difficult to believe.
But so you got to findcommunity somewhere.
What's cool about religiouscommunities is that you share
this bond that sort oftranscends personality, and so
you end up having a fellowshipwith people you would never hang
(47:21):
out with.
That's really useful.
It's really like I love thatthere are people in my church
who would never vote for thecandidate that the other people
in my church would vote for.
Everybody's so different.
Some have money, some don't.
Some have kids, some have kids,some don't.
Some have kids, some have kids,some don't.
Some have big, nice houses,some live in tiny apartments.
Some are Republicans, some areDemocrats, some hate America,
(47:44):
some love America, and when youhave a community like that,
that's still that tries to loveeach other.
That's so important.
There are so many practicalbenefits to having a community
like that.
Um, when things go down.
They bring you food when thingsget really bad.
They bring food to you.
(48:04):
They drop off bottles of liquorand iced coffees at your front
door and they text you hey, lefta bottle of irish whiskey for
you.
I would love to drink it withyou.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Text me if you want me to turn around, like that's
what community is I love thatyour friends just kind of you
know went into your behind yourhouse and you guys just got to
enjoy time together.
They just came, they justshowed up and I think that's the
beautiful part about that is,when your friends are struggling
, you just show up.
(48:35):
You don't have to have theanswers, you don't have to know
the most eloquent phrase torespond.
If you just show up and sitwith people in their pain,
that's the most beautiful giftthat you can give someone and
it's usually uh, listening, uh,food and chores, like those
three things are so importantwhen you have a community.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yes, you know, like when I, when Lauren, moved out
and we were officially separated, I was instantly a single
father of three, three youngdaughters between the ages of
what like 10 and 14.
And instantly, like one of mybuddies texted me and he's like
(49:16):
y'all come over for dinnertonight.
He didn't like, that's all hesaid and I'm like great, I don't
have to cook.
How am I supposed to cook LikeI'm?
I'm, I'm working all day, I'mpacking school lunches, I'm
getting home, I'm cleaning thehouse, I'm doing it all myself.
So, yeah, like we're going tocome over for dinner, like we
all are.
We all look like homelesspeople right now and I haven't
braided my daughter's haircorrectly.
(49:37):
But yeah, we'll be over therefor dinner.
And so you know, most peoplehave like a small group of
friends who will do that, two orthree people, and that's,
that's the absolute minimum thatyou need.
When I talk about community, youknow some people you know they
belong to.
I don't know a kickball team ora book club.
I mean, those are communitiestoo.
(49:58):
What's nice about a church ishow it's a little bit bigger and
it's a little bit stronger andthere's obviously it's nice when
you have 20 people bringing youfood and not three, so there's
some strength in numbers theretoo.
But community is huge.
(50:18):
You got to have somebody tocomplain to about your spouse um
, because you'll find thatthey'll complain about theirs in
similar ways.
Uh, and you feel a little lessalone.
I'm not saying you should havefriends so you can bad mouth
your spouse Uh, I don'trecommend doing that much, but,
um, but it's nice, like when youknow, when all this went down
(50:40):
and my friends sat with me in mybackyard, like one of the
things that they said was man,this could happen to any of us.
Or when I talked about feelinglike I worked too much and I was
gone from home too much.
You know, one of my buddies islike man, I have to travel for
work and I'm thinking aboutchanging jobs and making less
money just so I can be home more, like I totally get what you're
(51:01):
saying.
I just felt less alone.
I didn't feel isolated becauseI'm like these guys have the
same problem.
Community is key.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah Well, harrison, I want to honor your time and
wrap up the interview For allyou out there.
Go get the book how to StayMarried the Most Insane Story
Ever Told and I usually wrap upmy interview with three
questions.
The first one is what's thebravest thing that Harrison's
ever done?
The ones who dared.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
I'm probably writing this book.
I've gotten a lot of heat forit.
You know a man writing thisbook.
I've gotten a lot of heat forit.
You know, a man writing a bookabout his wife's affair feels a
little cringy to some people,especially in our current
climate, but I'm okay with that,because men don't talk about
(51:54):
this and our story is ultimatelya story of hope.
Nobody tells the truth aboutwhat really goes on in their
marriage and I thought it mightbe nice to try.
I had already written previousbooks about my life and I felt
like I was in a pretty goodposition to do it fairly and
honestly.
But after the book came out, Iwent through a pretty severe
(52:18):
depression for about a yearbecause of you know just the
comments that I read online.
Um, really, I felt a lot of um,torment and shame.
I wasn't sure if I'd done theright thing.
Um, and I.
It took me a long time to comeback around to realizing that we
had done the right thing, andit took me a long time to come
back around to realizing that wehad done the right thing and
(52:39):
that that was just the price wepaid for telling the truth in
public.
But yeah, writing this book isprobably the bravest thing I've
ever done.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yeah, I mean, and you say in the introduction that
you know it was reliving thepain, was rewriting it.
For anyone who's a writer, youknow, when you're recalling your
memories it's you know you'rereliving that story all over
again and you said you wouldhave preferred to write
something else and you wereworking on something else prior
to this occurring.
What is the bravest or what isthe best advice that someone
(53:10):
gave you and it doesn't have tobe pertaining to this instance,
the story necessarily um praisepublicly, criticize privately.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
That's pretty good advice for a teacher, for a
manager, for a parent that'sgood, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
And then what are three pivotal books in your life
?
Books that were perhapstransformative, books that
shaped you, molded you.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
So many books I definitely couldn't provide a
definitive list by John KennedyToole, which is one of the few
comic novels that actually wonthe Pulitzer Prize in 1981, a
(54:02):
few years after the author blewhis brains out no, no, he
asphyxiated himself in his caron the side of a road.
What a way to go for a comedywriter.
That book is so full of joy andhilarity and ridiculousness and
somehow it's full of big, heavyideas like real philosophical
ideas and absolute silliness.
(54:24):
And while I read the book whenI was 20 years old and I've
recently reread it and did notquite have the same transcendent
experience because I'm, youknow, almost 50 now, but that
book really changed how I sawbooks and what books could do
that you can write a funny bookthat had something to say at the
same time.
And for many years in my earlycareer I was made to feel like
(54:49):
comedy was not worth writingthat comedy.
You couldn't be a seriouswriter and write comedy.
But Confederacy of dunces andhitchhiker's guide to the galaxy
both very silly books that arebest read when you're about 20
both of those books taught methat you really could say
something and make people laughat the same time.
So that's on the list, uh, fornumber two, uh, in no particular
(55:12):
order, I would say all thebooks of charles portis.
He is the author who wrote thebook that was turned into True
Grit the movie, about 10 or 15years ago.
He's not a Western writer,though he writes really funny
books.
Mostly that happen inmodern-day America.
Charles Portis easily thefunniest writer in American
(55:34):
history.
He just blows Mark Twain out ofthe water.
But very few people have heardof Charles Portis and he's read.
He wrote only five or sixnovels and I've read all of them
about five times each.
I am so jealous of his talent.
He passed away a few years ago,but just such a great writer
and those books are very similar.
(55:55):
They are funny books.
I wouldn't call them like laughout loud.
They're very funny moments inthose books, but he's a serious
writer and I just love that.
And then number three, oh, Idon't know.
I mean I read a book that I'vebeen thinking about lately,
(56:16):
called on fire by larry brown,who was a fireman in oxford,
mississippi, uh, and I'm frommississippi and so, and we have
a lot of great writers frommississippi, like william
faulkner and tennessee williamsand so many others, um, and
larry brown who passed away, Ibelieve, in the late early 2000s
(56:38):
.
He was just kind of a countryboy who became this amazing
writer and on fire as his memoirabout being a fireman so
(56:58):
inspiring.
Because he was just somecountry boy like me who just
loved language and he lovedwriting and he lived a very
normal life and nothing specialever happened to him.
But his books were all somagical and I'm like if this guy
from mississippi can write amemoir about being a fireman and
it it enthralls me and I wantto read it and reread it, then I
can write a memoir about beingme and if I can make it
(57:20):
enchanting and interesting anddescriptive and maybe funny and
emotional, maybe people willread that and find something
beautiful.
So I love that book.
Talking about it makes me wantto reread it again.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
I'll have to check it out.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
And, harrison, where can peoplefind you?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Well, I'm in Savannah .
So if you're in Savannah,that's where you can find me,
usually on my bike riding towork and back home.
But I mean just, yeah, you canGoogle me.
I mean, you know,harrisonscottkeycom, I'm on
Instagram as harrisonscottkey,that's where I do most of my
posting, but I'm on X andFacebook and all the other
(58:04):
stupid things.
But yeah, you can just Googleme.
You can email me.
My assistant boards, all readeremails.
I like to respond.
I like to hear from people.
I have heard some crazymarriage stories ever since this
book came out, people messagingme and I'm like stories that
made my story seem pay and likeall I can respond with is like
(58:28):
I'm so sorry.
Also, you should write thatinteresting story, um, but yeah,
I love hearing.
I love hearing from readers.
Uh.
So yeah, you can find meanywhere.
Although I did ask chad gpt ifit knew how I had met my wife
and it did not.
It at it.
It said it knew who I wasbecause I'm a writer and you
(58:49):
know I've got stuff out there.
But it was like harrison scottkey met his wife at a party.
Nope, that didn't happen.
And then I was like you'rewrong.
And then he was like HarrisonScott Key met his wife at a
church fellowship luncheon inTexas.
I'm like where did that comefrom?
This person didn't get it soclearly.
Chat.
Gpt doesn't know where to findme or how to find me, but
(59:09):
readers can.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Well, I just want to say thank you for the gift of
this book.
I know, like you said, you gotbacklash about writing it To me.
It was a gift, I know for a lotof readers it was.
It was the you know, just aninsight of humanity that we're
all, at the end of the day,we're all broken people and you
know it's real.
So I really appreciate your raw, your honesty and I think, just
(59:32):
like the authors, that youadmired your book had.
It was woven with humor, withhonesty and a lot of really
insightful things.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Well, you're very kind, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare
podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
(01:00:07):
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
You guys are going to want to hear this vulnerable
episode that will make you laugh, ponder and, hopefully, examine
your relationships.
Harrison Scott Key, winner ofThurber Prize, best-selling
author of three memoirs how toStay Married the Most Insane
Love Story Ever Told, which isthe book that we'll be talking
about with him in this episode.
He also wrote Congratulations,who Are you Again, and the
(00:22):
World's Largest man.
Congratulations, who Are youAgain, and the World's Largest
man.
He's a viral TEDx speaker,writer featured in the New York
Times, and McSweeney's, astoryteller who has transformed
American humor.
I've actually discovered thisbook on someone's Instagram
story, believe it or not, andthis person vouched that they
could not put it down.
And I trusted them because Iactually met them in person.
So I got the book, read it inlike three days.
(00:44):
It was mind blown at how muchit pulled on my heartstrings and
also made me laugh and cry allat once.
And this book is so raw.
Guys, it is a really, reallyrare book.
It's raw, it has severalF-bombs in it and it's a real
inside look of a man who'sdiscovered his wife having an
affair.
Who's discovered his wifehaving an affair.
(01:05):
This book is also aboutcommunity, about human
brokenness and so much more, andthat is why I love this book.
And so when I read it I waslike I need to get Harrison
Skaki on the podcast, but Iwasn't sure if he would be
willing to come on, andthankfully he said yes.
So let's get into the episodewith Harrison Skaki.
Hey friends, welcome to theOnes who Dared podcast, where
(01:26):
stories of courage are elevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here.
Harrison Scott Key, welcome tothe Once we Dare podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Well, I hope I dare in this interview.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, well, I think you sure as heck dared because
your story was really impactful.
I just said earlier that Ifinished your book in about
three days.
It was I couldn't put it down.
It just it was so impactful.
Because it's not often that youhave someone share such
intimate personal details of amarriage and your book is called
(02:18):
how to Stay Married and theMost Insane Love Story Ever Told
.
Now, why would you think, inyour perspective, that this is
the most insane love story?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
ever told.
Well, that's like a lot of mywriting.
That subtitle is a totalexaggeration on some part,
because every marriage thatfalls apart is its own insane
love story.
You know, because of the natureof this particular podcast, I
(02:51):
mean, I think it's safe to saythat many of your listeners
would understand that that'salso a reference to the Bible
and you know, in the 80s therewas a version, there was a
translation of the Bible thatwas marketed as the greatest
story ever told, and so therewas a little there's a little
(03:12):
sort of poetic subtle hinting atthose themes in the book too,
with that subtitle.
But what's crazy about ours isand I think this is pretty of,
uh, the majority of people whoread the book.
And no, there are so many pointsin the book that you are asking
(03:32):
how in the world will these twopeople stay married?
And that's the promise of thetitle.
How to stay married is almostas what creates the suspense of
the book, in a way, because youread it and you start reading it
and you're like, oh okay, I seethings are bad, and then they
get good and you're, and thenthey get really bad again, and
(03:53):
then they get really, really bad, and even up until like the
last couple of chapters.
I think some readers havereached out to me and said that
they still weren't sure we weregoing to stay married, even as
we got toward the very end.
And so there's just.
There are so many twists andturns that the fact that Lauren
and I are still married ispretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, and I love how you used a lot of humor in that
too.
And this guy named Chad is.
She had the affair with whatyou name him, Chad, Um, but the
guy who wears cargo shorts onpurpose, I mean, it's just.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I feel bad for the cargo shorted.
Uh, I also.
I've had a number of actualChad's.
That's not his name in reallife.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, it's close, but that's not his name.
Uh, but I've had some realpeople named Chad who come up to
me and they're like thanks, man, like you really ruined it for
the rest of us.
Or everybody makes fun of me.
Now I'm like I'm sorry, I don'tknow many Chads.
I was not hoping to hurtanybody's feelings.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, well, it's interesting because, well, right
now, in our modern culture, theterm Chad you probably know
because you have teenage kids,and it's used as someone who's
like the jock in school, likethe hot guy you know, the one
that everybody wants to be with.
So I don't know if you knewthat using that reference like a
Chad, but I think in yours it'smore of like this random guy
(05:20):
who's your neighbor.
And so the story really is yourwife has an affair with your
neighbor, someone that you knowand trust, and you're working
hard and you're doing to providefor your family, you're doing
what you think is the rightthing to do, and essentially you
come across and discover thisunfortunate news and I would say
(05:41):
that your reaction to theaffair is surprising and it also
surprised your wife.
Why do you think your wife wassurprised and also angry at your
reaction?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, you know, when you're going through something
like this, both spouses the onewho's having an affair or doing
whatever it is to end themarriage and then the one who
discovers that this is happeningboth of you kind of lose your
minds a little bit.
I mean, and I really mean thatyou're everything that you think
(06:15):
you know is has to be sort ofrelearned from the beginning,
and this goes for both partiesin a marriage like that.
And I think Lauren was Laurenhad convinced herself and I talk
about this in the book and shehas said this, and she you know,
she writes a chapter in thebook and she says this in her
chapter as well she reallythought I was going to be very
(06:39):
happy that we were gettingdivorced and which, which.
That was like the when sheconfessed that to me that she
thought I would be excited aboutthis, that I could move on and
have my life, and she thought Iwould.
You know, the night that shetold me she was sure I was going
to pack up and move out, whichis what she wanted.
And she thought, you know, mymom lived a few miles away.
(07:03):
Maybe I'd go stay with my momor one of my buddies, and then
she thought I would want to moveto New York because I was a
writer, that I wanted this wholeother life that didn't involve
her.
She really thought I would dothat.
She thought I'd be excitedabout that.
When she confessed that to melater, everything started to
(07:23):
make sense.
I'm like oh, she had no like.
Obviously I was blind.
I was blind to the affair.
I was blind about everythingthat led up to it, but she was
blind to she was pretty blindabout who I was.
If I was a kind of an idiotabout who she was, and at that
point we'd been married for 10years, I mean, it's not like we
didn't know each other.
She was so shocked that Ididn't leave.
(07:46):
She was really mad that Ididn't storm out.
I think she thought that herrevelation, her admission of
this affair I mean I didn'tcatch her in it at all.
She just told me, I think, shewas ready to end the marriage.
In fact she wanted to wait atthis.
This happened in the book.
This was in october of, uh, Idon't know seven, eight years
(08:11):
ago.
But when she first told me, uh,I, I think she said she they
were planning to wait untilafter christmas to to tell us,
meaning for her to tell me andfor chad tell his wife.
But then she she said shecouldn't keep the secret anymore
.
It was like making her sick.
It was like just kind of.
(08:32):
She kind of felt like she wasliving in a nightmare and she
really just wanted to get outwith it.
And the fact that I stayed Ieven offered her she could stay
in the master bedroom I wouldjust like sleep in my office or
the guest bedroom, um, because Ican sleep anywhere and she
couldn't.
She was just so shocked by allof that and honestly it was.
(08:53):
You know you have some choiceswhen this happens.
You know that you have to dosomething, yeah, and you know
the typical responses are uhwhat?
Fight, flight or freeze.
You know you either fight thisor you run away or freeze, as
you don't know what to do.
So you're just like a deer inthe headlights.
And I kind of combined allthree of those in my reaction.
I knew that if I reactedinstantly to the news, either
(09:18):
through anger, rage, pointingfingers, getting in a huge fight
, waking the girls up, bringingthem downstairs or, you know,
confronting Chad that nightAnything I did right then was
just going to make things worse.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Right, and the wild thing is he's your neighbor, so
it's like you know.
It's not he's somewhere out inanother state or something.
This is real proximity righthere, so the temptation to do
that would be real.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
One thing that helped is that he and his wife had
lived next to us for about sevenyears, but they now lived about
five minutes away, which thathelped a lot, because if he had
lived right next, I don't thinkI don't honestly the whole thing
would have gone downdifferently if he was still
right next door, but he was fiveminutes away.
So I was at least going to haveto get in my truck if I wanted
(10:06):
to confront this guy.
All that to say, I thought Ididn't know what to do.
I had no idea what to do when Igot this news, because I had.
I had a thousand things to do.
Immediately.
I had to think about the safetyof my family, meaning, where
were my, where were the girlsgoing to live?
You know, were they going tolive with Lauren?
Were they going to live with me?
Where was I going to live?
(10:27):
Was she going to move out?
What do I do about money?
Like you know, lauren and I aresharing all the same bank
accounts, and now she's she'sseeing this other guy.
I'm like, are they going totake all this money?
Are they going to?
You know, like, like, is heusing my debit card?
I didn't know.
I mean I had.
I had to go to the bank, I hadto talk to my employer and like
(10:47):
take a week off of work.
Like everything happened atonce.
And so I thought, um, the thebest I could hope for is at
least to confuse my wife.
I thought, if I confused her,meaning you know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Like not be as predictable.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I thought that would at least help.
That would buy me some time tofigure things out, and it did.
I mean she was.
She stayed at the house.
I stayed at the house, we sleptin separate bedrooms.
We the next morning we got thegirls ready for school.
It was all so weird.
It was so weird no-transcriptsort of understand.
(11:58):
All the understanding of who mywife was was out the window too
, and I didn't even know who Iwas at that point.
So, yeah, I was.
I thought, well, if I don'treally know what to do, then
doing something rash seemedfoolish.
So I just I stayed there and Iwas like we'll talk this out,
we'll figure this out.
Um, it wasn't as easy astalking it out, but um, but I
definitely everybody thinks theyknow how they're going to react
(12:19):
.
Yeah, and it's usually angerand they're like man, you know,
screw her, kick her out, throwher clothes in the yard.
But when it really happens andyou understand that well, I mean
, maybe that works.
If you're you know, if you don'thave any kids, I don't know,
but like we had children, I'mgonna go burn my wife's clothes
in the yard the night I find outshe's having an affair, because
I don't want my daughterslooking out the window and
(12:41):
seeing a fire in the front yard,like, like you know, you have
to think about all those thingsthat affect, and so, yeah, you
might feel anger and rage, youmight want to punch a hole in
the wall or, you know, I don'tknow, slash Chad's tires.
But do you really want to makethings worse than they already
are?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
All right, and go to jail.
You can murder the guy, right?
I mean it's like, yeah, I don'twant to go to jail Like they
live happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
if I go to jail as a typical man, I mean, the book,
you know, really charts mytransformation and Lauren's
transformation through a bunchof really terrible events.
But at the time I was just mad.
I was terribly mad and sad andI didn't want to lose my family,
I didn't want to lose my wife.
(13:25):
It seemed like it was too late.
I mean, she said, you know,like the night she told me I was
like you know, therapy, we canget therapy.
And she was like it's too latefor that, it's too late for all
that.
And so I felt like a man withno ideas, no solutions, no
answers.
And, um, I didn't.
I wouldn't say I was feelingcharitable toward my wife, but I
(13:49):
she had already made thingspretty bad and I was about to
find out how I had contributedto that.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, I think what I appreciate about your story and
the raw honesty of your storyand it's mixed with humor as
well, and you're a comedian, sothat you know makes sense Is
that, in a sense, you pull backthe curtain of humanity, right,
and when you do that, you allowus to see ourselves in your
story, because at the end of theday, we are all broken people
to a degree, right, and we comeinto a marriage thinking that
this is going to be perfect, theperson you're marrying is
(14:23):
perfect, you think probablyhighly of yourself to some
degree, and no one at the daythat they do the vows, imagine
that this person that they'relooking into the eyes and making
a promise is going to cheat onthem, is going to break their
heart.
And yet, when two broken peopleget together, life happens, and
(14:47):
so I just want you to kind ofspeak into that to the listener
of perception versus reality andto kind of draw that curtain
back a little bit in here.
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Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you said it.
I mean, you know, when you getmarried, you just can't fathom
anything like this happening.
At least I couldn't.
I mean, maybe some people can.
I could not get from two peoplewho really love each other at
(16:06):
the altar to that moment in myliving room when my wife said
and I, you know, still rememberthe words we sat down.
I knew that she wanted to talk.
Um, finally, we, after dinner,we cleaned the kitchen and got
the girls to bed and we'resitting there and she said she
sat down and I sat down andsomething very big was clearly
about to happen.
I knew it, I didn't know what.
And she said I want a divorce.
(16:27):
And there was a pause and Isaid why?
And there was a pause and shesaid I'm in love with somebody
else.
And there was another pause andI said and to get to that point
from the altar, 10 years before, um, I think the thing that
(16:50):
that hit me the hardest in thatmoment was realizing you know,
I'm a, I write books and mostlywrite books about things I've
experienced, and mostly writebooks about things I've
experienced, and so I'm used towriting about my life, thinking
about my life, thinking,remembering things.
I mean I get paid to rememberand write it down and try to
(17:14):
draw some sort of universalhuman experience wisdom from
those stories, and I try to makethem funny when they're funny,
and they often are.
I let them be sad when they'resad, and they often are.
But I like to be funny and Ilike to remember and I like to
tell people my stories.
And so when she told me thatnight that she wanted a divorce
(17:35):
because she was in love withsomeone else, it was like
falling into a really deep holecontinually, because I knew
instantly that at least the past10 years of my life had been
something of a lie, that I hadmissed things, that I had missed
(17:55):
things and she had hiddenthings.
Both of those things were true,one was her fault, one was mine
.
It was a dizzying feeling andit was horrifying just because I
was like, wow, the story I havebeen telling myself and in some
way the world about my life hasbeen a lie, and so and that's,
(18:17):
that's your whole identity, andso my whole identity was called
into question in that moment.
It was pretty awful.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, and also the other thing that stood out to me
is, if you read the book andthis is a bit of a spoiler but
you guys start to reconcile andyou work on your marriage, you
essentially look inward toyourself and see what are you
know your contribution, like yousaid, what are some things?
(18:46):
How have I contributed?
Instead of just seeing themonster in her right, which we
always tend to blame the otherperson when something bad
happens.
It's not us, it's them.
But you really wentintrospective and you started to
see all the ways that you havefailed and you started to
reconcile and there was abeautiful part to the story, but
it was the middle of the bookand I'm like what is gonna
(19:08):
happen next?
It can't be the end, right?
Um, and then in that story youfind that she's with the guy
again and and this is a really Imean your story made cry and
just really ponder abouthumanity and appreciate your raw
, honest truth.
But in that moment, where yourwife was in her darkest moments,
(19:32):
there was a pivotal thing thathappened to you.
Can you speak into that, likewhy was that the path that you
chose and what was going oninwardly when you decided to
come and actually help her?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
when she betrayed you essentially the second time
around are you talking about the, the moment near the end of the
book?
Um?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
you know when all this went down.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Uh, what you said is true.
It's so easy to point thefinger at the person who had the
affair.
Yeah, that's such an obviousbreach of trust.
It's such an obvious breach oftrust, it's such an obvious
betrayal.
It's the highest treason youcan imagine in a human life is
(20:32):
to be betrayed like that.
And so it's just so easy topoint the finger and see red.
And my wife is a bad person.
She's a very, very bad personand something is wrong with her.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Right, and in a sense , does it not make you feel a
little more righteous becauseyou weren't the bad guy?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's uh, it's a, very it's
a, it's a terrible temptation.
I mean the worst thing that canhappen to you.
Uh, when you find out yourspouse is having an affair, the
worst thing that happens is youstart to you.
That is the self-righteousnessthat you feel because you know
(21:07):
it's real.
Like it, the anger is righteousanger.
That is a.
That is a bad thing, that is avery bad thing, and it's so rare
that humans get to experiencean actual, really bad thing
being done to them, a crime,whether it's a crime of the
heart or whatever, and it'sintoxicating at first.
(21:27):
Wow, my wife is very bad, wemust fix you and I'm going to be
nice and I'm going to help fixyou.
That is the temptation offinding out something like this.
And so early on, after sheconfessed that and it was kind
of unclear if we were going toreconcile, she clearly, I think
my wife, did not realize howhard it was going to be.
(21:50):
She just thought, like we saidearlier, she thought, hey, I
want a divorce and I'd be likefine, geez, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, go live with this guy, get out of here.
I've been waiting on thismoment.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And when I didn't do that, everything got much more
complicated for her and I thinkshe started to see that and
started to see that she hadn'treally thought through her plan,
what she was going to do withherself, her job, uh, our kids.
And, um, during that time, oneof my best friends and I say
(22:24):
this in the book, he, he's atherapist and he said, just,
quite, you know, he would callme every other day and check on
me and he knew that we werestill in the house together, but
everything was very uncertainand we weren't really talking,
naturally, except for, like,figuring out what's for dinner
and the kids.
And he said you know, insituations like this, when a
(22:46):
couple has had an affair, um, ifthey reconcile and this guy
spoke with experience as atherapist he said, when couples
reconcile after something likethis, it's usually because the
person who was betrayed takessome ownership in what happened.
He said, without that, it justdoesn't work, it just.
He said it just doesn't work.
And he wasn't, uh, exhorting me, he was not telling me what to
(23:10):
do, he was just giving me anobservation like this kind of
thing is only resolved when theperson in your position,
harrison, acknowledges somecontribution to the problem and
that really, you know, as awriter who writes about himself,
that completely gelled with myown experience, Because when
(23:30):
you're writing your own story,it's best to make yourself the
villain.
You're the idiot, you're the onewho's making mistakes, you're
the one who doesn't understand,and I'm like that makes total
sense.
So I really started to thinkabout okay, yeah, I, I work a
lot.
Okay, I started there.
I work a lot like a lot ofbreadwinners, a lot of men, not
(23:52):
not always men in marriages, butoften, you know, I'm the one
who's gone, I'm the one who'straveling for work.
I started there and then, asyou see in the book, I just made
this huge list from A to Z ofeverything that might have made
it easy for Lauren to want toleave.
Now my best friend said look,this doesn't mean it's your
(24:14):
fault when you contribute tosomething like this.
We're not saying the affair isyour fault, don't blame yourself
.
But how did you make it easy?
How did you make that seem likea preferable option for your
wife?
Wow, yeah, and so I reallyobviously, like you know,
working, traveling for work thatdoesn't make somebody have an
affair, being I don't know,demanding or being an asshole or
(24:41):
picking on your wife too muchor your husband or whatever.
You're being tight with moneyor like.
None of those things makehaving an affair okay, but they
definitely make it maybe not funto be married to you, and so I
really had to look long and hardat all of those ways that I had
made my marriage not a very funplace to be.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Those ways that I had made my marriage not a very fun
place to be.
Wow, I love that, because youwent and just said what is it?
How am I contributing to that?
And I think we can all examinethat in ourselves, whichever
state of marriage you're inright now, Because and I think
(25:25):
that's the gift that you give tothe reader with your book is
that if you are married and it'stitled how to stay married, so
it really helps you to examineyourself and say, okay, what am
I doing?
That may make me someone who'sunlikable or maybe not pleasant
to be with, or I've heard this,someone said this and I don't
remember who it is to givecredit to.
But the question that you askyourself is would I like to be
married to me?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Would I like to be married to me.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
That's a great question Because I think if
you're really honest withyourself, you would find ways
that you could improve.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Well, yeah, duh, I mean like, of course.
I mean you know what one of thethings I love most about
Christianity is, at least Iguess what you would call like
confessional Christianity, thesort of those universal
(26:18):
propositions that mostChristians throughout history
have agreed that like throughthings like the Apostles' Creed
or the Nicene Creed, whateveryou know, which touch on
Catholicism and Episcopals andPresbyterians and whatnot, then
you know, if you are familiarwith any of that history, you
(26:38):
know that the Bible is prettyclear that humans are just prone
to malice, that we love to.
We are selfish beings at best,even if we're not mean and cruel
, we are selfish.
Even the kindest person thinksthey are the center of the
(27:01):
universe and has to workcontinually to remind themselves
that they are not the center ofthe universe and has to work
continually to remind themselvesthat they are not the center of
the universe.
I love that about the bible.
That's my favorite.
That's personally one of my um,something I have to be reminded
of constantly, and and so itwas.
It was very natural to be likeokay, all right, you know what.
(27:21):
You know.
What does Jesus say?
You know, don't you know the?
Don't point out the speck insomeone else's eye when you
haven't looked at the beam inyour own eye, and so that's.
That's what I was doing.
I mean, I was.
I didn't mean for this to be areligious book, I didn't mean
for it to be a Christian book.
You know, it's the only book,as far as I know, that's been
(27:47):
nominated for book of the yearby Christianity Today.
That has, you know, 13 F-bombsin it.
That's pretty rare, but I doknow this.
I've grown up in the church andyou could say that, you know, I
adhere to, like a Christianhumanism.
You know, and I go, I talkabout that in the book.
I'm like I didn't know what todo.
I was totally bereft of answersand so I immediately went to
(28:11):
like well, what do I believe?
Do I believe in love?
Do I believe in forgiveness?
And you know, if this hadhappened to a Buddhist or a
pagan or somebody else, theywould have had a different
reaction and it would have beena different book.
But for me, having grown up as aChristian and having wrestled
with my faith my whole life, I'mlike, look, it was like.
You know, when you buy a houseand you know the realtor takes
(28:34):
you into the backyard andthey're like there's a shed back
there.
There's some old tools in there.
If you want those, those comewith the house.
That was kind of like my faith.
This happened and I go into theshed in the backyard with all
these old 19th century tools youknow thing rusting hanging on a
rafter and I'm like, all right,one of them is marked
forgiveness, one of them ismarked, you know, humility, one
(28:57):
of them is marked compassion,and I'm like do these, are these
?
Is this real?
Because this would be reallynice if these things worked,
because I would like to staymarried, I would like to keep my
family intact, and so maybe Ishould use these tools.
And that's how it became sortof a book about looking in the
mirror and loving my neighbor asmyself, which takes on a whole
(29:18):
new residence when your neighboris having an affair with your
wife.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, and also what I appreciate about it is that you
were able to also see thebrokenness in your wife for what
it was, rather than the monsterthat she is, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You know, in that circumstance, yeah, like if I'm
going to look at myself and belike, wow, here are about two
dozen things that are reallywrong with me.
I know why I'm like that.
I think I know what kind ofmakes me like that, which helps
me to maybe address those issuesand fix them.
Selfishness, I can be verbally,I can be just mean.
(29:57):
I like to think it's beingfunny and I and it often starts
as humor and then it kind ofjust ends up cutting somebody
down.
If I can look at all that and belike, okay, I'm still a nice
guy, I can fix those things, I'mnot lost.
If I look at myself like that,then I have to look at her like
that too, like all right, well,you know, maybe she didn't do
all of these things that I did,but she did a few things.
(30:18):
She had an affair and you knowa few other things besides that
contributed to it.
So if I can look at myself withmercy, then I should be able to
look at her with mercy, and itwasn't easy, but it did make
hating her harder.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, because you were really real and honest.
What would you say to someonewho is, um, perhaps struggling?
Maybe they are going throughinfidelity and they're in the
middle of just feeling likethere is no hope for them?
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Speaker 2 (31:31):
Um, well, um, I would .
That's a tough place to be,that's a dark, dark place to be.
Um, you know, if they are, Imean, the conversation is a
little different, if you know.
I mean there there are athousand marriages and a
(31:52):
thousand marriages are fallingapart.
They're all falling apart forthe same and for very different
reasons.
Um, the dynamics of why it'sfalling apart have a lot to do
with how you listen to thosepeople, um, but you know, to
somebody who's in the thick ofit, um, I would say this uh, I
(32:13):
would say that you need to thinkabout every decision you make
at this point very carefully.
You don't want to make any rashdecisions about reconciling or
about separating, and you knowdivorcing or you know rash
decisions.
You know that might lead toviolence, to pain, to
(32:38):
unnecessary costs.
You know, don't, don't slashthe guy's tires because you're
going to end up, you know, goingto court for that.
Like, don't make rash decisions.
That's the first bit of advice.
But mostly I would say you needto talk to some people.
Um, the worst thing you can dowhen your marriage is in trouble
is to not talk to anyone aboutit, and there are a few people
(32:59):
you need to talk to.
If you have, you need a friend.
You need to talk to a friend.
They will.
Your friends are so importantbecause they are anchored in
reality and you are not.
When you're going through this,you are not in reality at all.
You are walking through aliving nightmare, but your real
(33:21):
friends can communicate with youin that nightmare while they
are just living a normal life.
It's really nice to be remindedthat people can live a normal
life, because you forget thatwhen your marriage is going
through absolute hell, you needfriends.
Friends that you can go have abeer with and just tell them
what's going on.
Friends that you can text andbe like not a good day man or
(33:44):
you know, want to go.
You know like can I come overfor dinner?
I don't feel like cooking,whatever.
If you don't have friends,that's a huge problem, a huge
red flag.
Friends that's a huge problem,a huge red flag.
Marriages when people who aremarried do not have friends
outside of their marriage,things get really bad really
quickly for most of us.
You've got to have that.
So that's first.
(34:05):
You've got to talk to yourfriend.
You've got to talk to a friend.
Preferably, you want to keepthe group small.
You don't want to tell 20friends about your marriage
falling apart, because then youspend all of your time updating
your 20 friends on the state ofyour marriage, which is too much
work.
It's exhausting.
So you need a small group, keepyour circle of trust small and
(34:25):
you need to get together withthem.
Often You'll find yourselflaughing, crying.
They'll be sharing from theirmarriages.
But I'm telling you, you got tohave a friend.
If you don't, you need to getone and you need to fix that
problem.
Two, you need to talk to atherapist, which is like a
licensed, paid friend.
They're similar to friends butthey're a little different.
They might sometimes you get atherapist who gives you good
(34:48):
advice.
Sometimes you have a therapistwho just listens and asks you
frustrating questions what doyou want?
How does that feel?
But you need somebody who'sexperienced in handling these
kinds of situations.
I was very lucky in that, of thethree close friends who I
brought in to help me throughthis, one was a pastor and not a
(35:13):
stuffy, pious guy at all.
I mean, he has tattoos and hecusses a little too much,
frankly, but in a good way.
He's an entertaining with hisprofanity.
But he had lived through hisown parents' divorce and he
counsels a lot of people at hischurch who are going through
things like this, and he's agreat listener.
He was one guy.
(35:34):
The other was a marriage andfamily therapist.
So perfect, there you go, youlucked out there and then the
third guy, uh, was a?
um high school english teacher,uh, and a writer, and so it was
nice to have another writer inmy group, um, who understood.
Uh, and all three guys are justreally compassionate.
(35:55):
You really need that.
But you also need a therapistwho's not necessarily going to
valorize whatever bad decisionsyou are announcing, like the
things my friends told me.
Don't have sex with yoursecretary.
I don't have a secretary, but Iwould have had sex with her if
I had had one.
I would have tried because Iwas sad and lonely and desperate
(36:18):
and mad, right, yeah?
Yeah, I mean, when somethinglike this happens to you in your
marriage, I found myselflonging and lusting for
affection.
Almost a year went by withoutany physical affection from my
wife, and so when all this wentdown, I'm like, yeah, I totally
(36:39):
get why you would want to go toa strip club in Las Vegas and
just like feel something.
And my friends were veryhelpful at keeping me from
making foolish decisions likethat, because I wouldn't have
been able to hide it from them,you know, um.
So talk to your friends, talk toa therapist you need to talk to
.
If you have a guide that youtalk to.
(37:00):
That's a really importantperson to talk to, whether it's,
you know, for me it was throughprayer and I had never prayed
as fervently and desperately asI prayed in those days and
honestly, it felt pretty good.
Like so many times when I prayI days, and honestly it felt
pretty good.
Like so many times when I pray,I just feel like I'm talking to
the sky and talking to myself.
(37:21):
But I did not feel like that.
In the midst of all this man, Iwas like pretty sure God was
there and I'm pretty sure ifhe's ever going to listen to me,
he's listening now.
Um, so you do need to like andthat's another way of saying
like.
Whatever your philosophy is,this is a great time to see if
it works.
This is a really great time tosee if your worldview is helpful
(37:43):
at helping you solve problemsand not live in hell.
Talk to your friends, talk to atherapist, talk to a guide and,
and most importantly, um, lookin the mirror, talk to yourself,
decide what's, maybe what aboutyou could be better.
We've already addressed that inthis conversation.
And then, lastly, you need totalk to your spouse.
(38:04):
You're going to be in eachother's lives probably for the
rest of your lives, especiallyif you have kids.
Yeah, so you don't want to burnthat bridge, you don't want to
say things that add to thebitterness and resentment that's
already there.
So you need to keep lines ofcommunication open with your
spouse as well, even if it'sjust through text or once a week
(38:24):
.
If y'all are separated I'm nottalking about I miss you, please
come back but just realizingthat life has to go on and maybe
you don't know if you're goingto get married or sorry, get
divorced, or you don't know ifyou're going to reconcile.
But keep that line ofcommunication as free of
manipulation as you can, evenwhile the worst is happening.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That's so good.
And what are three things thatyou would advise for someone on
how to stay married?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, I don't know man Read the book.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I guess I mean you do have to yeah, definitely read
the book.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It's not a how to, it's more how not to.
But there are a few little-.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Nuggets that you give .
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I drop things that I've learned, and that I've
learned, and, and that I'vestill feel true.
You know, three years after Iwrote, wrote it, um, I would say
, uh, that first of all, you geta lot of bad advice.
Um, you know, don't go to bedangry.
You get that advice a lot.
I think it's really great to goto bed angry.
(39:35):
Sometimes, rushing a fight,rushing a resolution, just leads
to another fight so many times.
And sometimes you just need tosay, all right, I'm just I'm
going to go to bed mad, she'sgoing to go to bed mad and I'm
going to stew a little bit andlet the heat kind of simmer and
(39:56):
come down, and then we can talkabout this tomorrow.
I've also learned that that'show my wife prefers to deal with
difficulty.
I love to talk, I am a writer,I'm a teacher, I give
presentations, I love to talk,and my wife does not.
She is an introvert and she hasto really chew on her feelings
(40:16):
and find the words beforethey're ready.
And I just learned that I'mlike, oh okay, sometimes it's
okay to go to bed mad, becauseshe needs another 12 hours to
sort of figure out exactly howshe wants to express what she's
feeling.
And honestly, even though Icould express how I'm feeling
any time of the day, that's notalways.
I'm not always telling thetruth.
I don't always know how I'mfeeling any time of the day.
Uh, that's not always.
I'm not always telling thetruth.
I don't always know how I feel,even when I feel like I want to
(40:40):
talk about how I feel.
Um, but how to stay married, um, realize that it might not be,
uh, might not always be fun tobe married to you.
Uh, you need to.
We've talked about that a lotin this conversation and that's
probably number one.
I do think you know I go backand forth on this, but I feel
(41:04):
pretty strongly that everymarriage needs therapy, and I
know some people will disagree.
Therapy in some ways is kind ofhaving a backlash.
Like you can have too muchtherapy, talk about your
feelings too much.
I do think you can go totherapy a little too much.
You know, I have friends whoare not uh, who are going from
what I can tell and in myconversations with them, their
(41:26):
lives are pretty great andthey're still in therapy every
week.
I think that can become aproblem after a while.
Um, it depends on who you areand the situations are all
different, but I do think mostmarriages need therapy.
Like you know, we didn't alwayshave therapy, it's relatively
new in human history, but so isdentistry, you know like, and we
all go to the dentist.
(41:46):
Nobody says you shouldn't go toa dentist.
I'm sure a hundred years agothere were people were like, ah,
who goes to the dentist?
Just, you know, get me thatwooden healthy, right?
Yeah, dentures are fine.
Or if it hurts, just yank itout or take, take some Tylenol
or whatever.
But most of us, all of us in amodern society, we go to the
dentist when something's wrongwith our teeth and even when
(42:07):
something's not wrong, we go fora cleaning to keep things from
getting wronger later.
That's therapy, that's all itis, and it is weird and it's so
scary.
That's one of the scariestthings you can do as a married
couple is to not be reallyhaving bad problems and to go to
therapy anyway.
That's scary because you knowyou're going to actually learn
(42:29):
about real problems that youhave that you weren't even
fighting about.
Why would you do that?
That you have, that you weren'teven fighting about, why would
you do that?
You know, like when you.
Sometimes you know when you.
It's like when you're sellingyour house and you have to bring
in a home inspector to makesure it's not falling apart.
You read things in thatinspection report you wish you
didn't know.
You're like this house looksfine, but somebody will buy it.
(42:52):
Why do you have to be so meanand say all these things about
my house and this report?
That's therapy and it can befrightening.
Um, so that's that's anotherbit of advice.
Is is go, is like you can goonce a month, obviously, if
you're in a crisis, I mean atour most intense.
Lauren had a therapist that shesaw weekly.
I had a therapist that I sawweekly and we had one that we
(43:15):
both saw together weekly.
So that's, that's a lot oftherapy.
And that was true for aboutthree to six months I mean,
because we were in the ER ofmarriage and we needed all of
that help and you we needed itless as time went on, um, and
then it went to like once amonth and then it went to like
once every two or three months.
(43:37):
But I would definitely advocatefor every marriage marriage to
get into therapy.
You will hear your partner saythings that they would never say
to you and they say themtypically like when they.
When you say it to a therapistin front of your spouse, you're
(43:58):
not mad.
Usually you're just like, well,this is kind of how I feel.
When that happens, it'll reallyshock and surprise you and it
will help and so I recommendthat.
Um, but there I could give youknow a list of 100 other things
to do.
But I think, realize that youare not perfect Everybody knows
they're not perfect but toreally realize, like you have
(44:19):
been such a way that your spousehas thought, wow, wouldn't it
be great not to be married tothis person anymore?
Every married person in theworld has had that thought.
You need to realize that.
And then going to therapy is agreat way to sort of talk about
that and become slightly better.
Getting better at being marrieddoesn't mean you're becoming
(44:42):
like a professional race cardriver, right, it just means
that you're more in tune.
You can hear things If you havea like I talk too much.
So I had to learn how to shutup and listen and really listen
and be patient, especially witha woman who doesn't volunteer
information willingly.
(45:02):
Um, because it's just not herpersonality.
You have to really pull it outof her.
And so I would find myself,after all, this sort of went
down and we were attemptingreconciliation, I would would
find Lauren like talking abouther feelings and I would
immediately start talking aboutmine.
I'm like, oh, she has feelings,I have feelings, we have
(45:22):
feelings in common, let's allshare our feelings.
And I'm like no, shut up.
Like shut up, harrison, justlike listen and be quiet.
Like great interviewers.
You know like silence is sogreat in an interview Cause,
like you ask a question, theydon't say anything.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
And what do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
What you want to do is you want to ask a follow-up
to kind of help them out, rightyou?
Speaker 1 (45:46):
want to go fill in the gap, like don't have any
silence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
The best interviewers don't do that.
They just sit there in thesilence and finally, what comes
out?
Something true comes outeventually, and that's pretty
true in marriage.
I had to learn that what Laurenhad to figure out, at least in
part, was how to volunteer theinformation.
So she had a whole differentjourney in therapy.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thank you so much for thatadvice.
The other thing, too, that Iwant to point out is community.
In your book was, through andthrough, the thing that just
brought it all together, whichwas so beautiful and seeing, and
you pointing out how I mean youmentioned friends, but your
church, your community, that is.
I truly believe that if we havepeople around us, we can make
(46:33):
it through anything.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Man, that is so true.
I would add that to the list ofadvice I talked earlier about
finding friends.
Community is a better word forit.
As you read in the book, ourcommunity is mostly through our
church, which I realize ispretty retro for a lot of people
in the 21st century and kind offeels kind of impossible for
(46:58):
people who just find religion,especially Christianity, too
difficult to believe.
But so you got to findcommunity somewhere.
What's cool about religiouscommunities is that you share
this bond that sort oftranscends personality, and so
you end up having a fellowshipwith people you would never hang
(47:21):
out with.
That's really useful.
It's really like I love thatthere are people in my church
who would never vote for thecandidate that the other people
in my church would vote for.
Everybody's so different.
Some have money, some don't.
Some have kids, some have kids,some don't.
Some have kids, some have kids,some don't.
Some have big, nice houses,some live in tiny apartments.
Some are Republicans, some areDemocrats, some hate America,
(47:44):
some love America, and when youhave a community like that,
that's still that tries to loveeach other.
That's so important.
There are so many practicalbenefits to having a community
like that.
Um, when things go down.
They bring you food when thingsget really bad.
They bring food to you.
(48:04):
They drop off bottles of liquorand iced coffees at your front
door and they text you hey, lefta bottle of irish whiskey for
you.
I would love to drink it withyou.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Text me if you want me to turn around, like that's
what community is I love thatyour friends just kind of you
know went into your behind yourhouse and you guys just got to
enjoy time together.
They just came, they justshowed up and I think that's the
beautiful part about that is,when your friends are struggling
, you just show up.
(48:35):
You don't have to have theanswers, you don't have to know
the most eloquent phrase torespond.
If you just show up and sitwith people in their pain,
that's the most beautiful giftthat you can give someone and
it's usually uh, listening, uh,food and chores, like those
three things are so importantwhen you have a community.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Yes, you know, like when I, when Lauren, moved out
and we were officially separated, I was instantly a single
father of three, three youngdaughters between the ages of
what like 10 and 14.
And instantly, like one of mybuddies texted me and he's like
(49:16):
y'all come over for dinnertonight.
He didn't like, that's all hesaid and I'm like great, I don't
have to cook.
How am I supposed to cook LikeI'm?
I'm, I'm working all day, I'mpacking school lunches, I'm
getting home, I'm cleaning thehouse, I'm doing it all myself.
So, yeah, like we're going tocome over for dinner, like we
all are.
We all look like homelesspeople right now and I haven't
braided my daughter's haircorrectly.
(49:37):
But yeah, we'll be over therefor dinner.
And so you know, most peoplehave like a small group of
friends who will do that, two orthree people, and that's,
that's the absolute minimum thatyou need.
When I talk about community, youknow some people you know they
belong to.
I don't know a kickball team ora book club.
I mean, those are communitiestoo.
(49:58):
What's nice about a church ishow it's a little bit bigger and
it's a little bit stronger andthere's obviously it's nice when
you have 20 people bringing youfood and not three, so there's
some strength in numbers theretoo.
But community is huge.
(50:18):
You got to have somebody tocomplain to about your spouse um
, because you'll find thatthey'll complain about theirs in
similar ways.
Uh, and you feel a little lessalone.
I'm not saying you should havefriends so you can bad mouth
your spouse Uh, I don'trecommend doing that much, but,
um, but it's nice, like when youknow, when all this went down
(50:40):
and my friends sat with me in mybackyard, like one of the
things that they said was man,this could happen to any of us.
Or when I talked about feelinglike I worked too much and I was
gone from home too much.
You know, one of my buddies islike man, I have to travel for
work and I'm thinking aboutchanging jobs and making less
money just so I can be home more, like I totally get what you're
(51:01):
saying.
I just felt less alone.
I didn't feel isolated becauseI'm like these guys have the
same problem.
Community is key.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah Well, harrison, I want to honor your time and
wrap up the interview For allyou out there.
Go get the book how to StayMarried the Most Insane Story
Ever Told and I usually wrap upmy interview with three
questions.
The first one is what's thebravest thing that Harrison's
ever done?
The ones who dared.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
I'm probably writing this book.
I've gotten a lot of heat forit.
You know a man writing thisbook.
I've gotten a lot of heat forit.
You know, a man writing a bookabout his wife's affair feels a
little cringy to some people,especially in our current
climate, but I'm okay with that,because men don't talk about
(51:54):
this and our story is ultimatelya story of hope.
Nobody tells the truth aboutwhat really goes on in their
marriage and I thought it mightbe nice to try.
I had already written previousbooks about my life and I felt
like I was in a pretty goodposition to do it fairly and
honestly.
But after the book came out, Iwent through a pretty severe
(52:18):
depression for about a yearbecause of you know just the
comments that I read online.
Um, really, I felt a lot of um,torment and shame.
I wasn't sure if I'd done theright thing.
Um, and I.
It took me a long time to comeback around to realizing that we
had done the right thing, andit took me a long time to come
back around to realizing that wehad done the right thing and
(52:39):
that that was just the price wepaid for telling the truth in
public.
But yeah, writing this book isprobably the bravest thing I've
ever done.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Yeah, I mean, and you say in the introduction that
you know it was reliving thepain, was rewriting it.
For anyone who's a writer, youknow, when you're recalling your
memories it's you know you'rereliving that story all over
again and you said you wouldhave preferred to write
something else and you wereworking on something else prior
to this occurring.
What is the bravest or what isthe best advice that someone
(53:10):
gave you and it doesn't have tobe pertaining to this instance,
the story necessarily um praisepublicly, criticize privately.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
That's pretty good advice for a teacher, for a
manager, for a parent that'sgood, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
And then what are three pivotal books in your life
?
Books that were perhapstransformative, books that
shaped you, molded you.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
So many books I definitely couldn't provide a
definitive list by John KennedyToole, which is one of the few
comic novels that actually wonthe Pulitzer Prize in 1981, a
(54:02):
few years after the author blewhis brains out no, no, he
asphyxiated himself in his caron the side of a road.
What a way to go for a comedywriter.
That book is so full of joy andhilarity and ridiculousness and
somehow it's full of big, heavyideas like real philosophical
ideas and absolute silliness.
(54:24):
And while I read the book whenI was 20 years old and I've
recently reread it and did notquite have the same transcendent
experience because I'm, youknow, almost 50 now, but that
book really changed how I sawbooks and what books could do
that you can write a funny bookthat had something to say at the
same time.
And for many years in my earlycareer I was made to feel like
(54:49):
comedy was not worth writingthat comedy.
You couldn't be a seriouswriter and write comedy.
But Confederacy of dunces andhitchhiker's guide to the galaxy
both very silly books that arebest read when you're about 20
both of those books taught methat you really could say
something and make people laughat the same time.
So that's on the list, uh, fornumber two, uh, in no particular
(55:12):
order, I would say all thebooks of charles portis.
He is the author who wrote thebook that was turned into True
Grit the movie, about 10 or 15years ago.
He's not a Western writer,though he writes really funny
books.
Mostly that happen inmodern-day America.
Charles Portis easily thefunniest writer in American
(55:34):
history.
He just blows Mark Twain out ofthe water.
But very few people have heardof Charles Portis and he's read.
He wrote only five or sixnovels and I've read all of them
about five times each.
I am so jealous of his talent.
He passed away a few years ago,but just such a great writer
and those books are very similar.
(55:55):
They are funny books.
I wouldn't call them like laughout loud.
They're very funny moments inthose books, but he's a serious
writer and I just love that.
And then number three, oh, Idon't know.
I mean I read a book that I'vebeen thinking about lately,
(56:16):
called on fire by larry brown,who was a fireman in oxford,
mississippi, uh, and I'm frommississippi and so, and we have
a lot of great writers frommississippi, like william
faulkner and tennessee williamsand so many others, um, and
larry brown who passed away, Ibelieve, in the late early 2000s
(56:38):
.
He was just kind of a countryboy who became this amazing
writer and on fire as his memoirabout being a fireman so
(56:58):
inspiring.
Because he was just somecountry boy like me who just
loved language and he lovedwriting and he lived a very
normal life and nothing specialever happened to him.
But his books were all somagical and I'm like if this guy
from mississippi can write amemoir about being a fireman and
it it enthralls me and I wantto read it and reread it, then I
can write a memoir about beingme and if I can make it
(57:20):
enchanting and interesting anddescriptive and maybe funny and
emotional, maybe people willread that and find something
beautiful.
So I love that book.
Talking about it makes me wantto reread it again.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
I'll have to check it out.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
And, harrison, where can peoplefind you?
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Well, I'm in Savannah .
So if you're in Savannah,that's where you can find me,
usually on my bike riding towork and back home.
But I mean just, yeah, you canGoogle me.
I mean, you know,harrisonscottkeycom, I'm on
Instagram as harrisonscottkey,that's where I do most of my
posting, but I'm on X andFacebook and all the other
(58:04):
stupid things.
But yeah, you can just Googleme.
You can email me.
My assistant boards, all readeremails.
I like to respond.
I like to hear from people.
I have heard some crazymarriage stories ever since this
book came out, people messagingme and I'm like stories that
made my story seem pay and likeall I can respond with is like
(58:28):
I'm so sorry.
Also, you should write thatinteresting story, um, but yeah,
I love hearing.
I love hearing from readers.
Uh.
So yeah, you can find meanywhere.
Although I did ask chad gpt ifit knew how I had met my wife
and it did not.
It at it.
It said it knew who I wasbecause I'm a writer and you
(58:49):
know I've got stuff out there.
But it was like harrison scottkey met his wife at a party.
Nope, that didn't happen.
And then I was like you'rewrong.
And then he was like HarrisonScott Key met his wife at a
church fellowship luncheon inTexas.
I'm like where did that comefrom?
This person didn't get it soclearly.
Chat.
Gpt doesn't know where to findme or how to find me, but
(59:09):
readers can.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Well, I just want to say thank you for the gift of
this book.
I know, like you said, you gotbacklash about writing it To me.
It was a gift, I know for a lotof readers it was.
It was the you know, just aninsight of humanity that we're
all, at the end of the day,we're all broken people and you
know it's real.
So I really appreciate your raw, your honesty and I think, just
(59:32):
like the authors, that youadmired your book had.
It was woven with humor, withhonesty and a lot of really
insightful things.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Well, you're very kind, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Thank you for listening to the Once we Dare
podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
(01:00:07):
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
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