January 28, 2025 • 62 mins
What would you do if leaving your community meant losing your family, your identity, and everything you’ve ever known? For those who step away from the Amish way of life, this choice is life-altering.
Mary Esh recounts her transformative journey from the Amish community, highlighting the struggles and complexities of traditional living. Her story emphasizes the importance of personal choice and courage in overcoming a restrictive upbringing.
Key Points:
- Definition of Amish life and core beliefs
- Trauma and dysfunction in Amish communities
- Rumspringa: myth versus reality
- Emotional impact of leaving the only way of life you know
- Family dynamics and faith's influence on decisions
- Discovering healing and empowerment outside the community
- Role of community in the healing process
- Ongoing self-discovery and taking charge of life
Mary's experience reveals the paradox of Amish life, where strict traditions coexist with a desire for freedom. She describes her mixed feelings about belonging, the oppressive culture, and her yearning for independence.
Her turning point came when her brother left the church, prompting her to question her beliefs. Leaving the Amish community was a gradual process, influenced by her conversations with God and her desire for freedom. Her travels broadened her perspective, revealing diverse cultures.
Mary's healing journey involved confronting trauma, seeking counseling, and finding solace in a supportive faith community. Her story illustrates the non-linear nature of healing and the resilience of the human spirit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And that's like the number one question I get when
people find out that I grew upAmish.
Like did you do the rumspringa?
So I didn't do that and likeanymore it's not portrayed as a
choice at all.
Like your parents expect you tostay Amish and while there are
some youth when they turn 16,they'll join.
Like there's a bunch ofdifferent groups and you decide
(00:23):
which group that you want to bea part of and some of them do
have like go out and they won'tdress Amish anymore.
They have vehicles, they party,like all the things.
And then there's other groupsthat you know have rules.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dare podcast,
where stories of courage areelevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here, maryAsh.
(01:03):
Welcome to the Once a Dearpodcast.
I am so excited to have you inthe studio today.
Thanks for having me.
I'm glad to be here and I am sojust honored the fact that
you're here to share your storyand so, essentially, the series
is about leaving Amish andyou're someone who was once part
of an Amish community and nowyou're no longer part of it.
(01:25):
So we're going to kind of takea deep dive into what is Amish
to people who have no idea, whomay have never heard about the
Amish community, and essentially, your story of what it was like
to be living as an Amish child.
How did you come aboutrealizing it's not something you
(01:45):
wanted to do the rest of yourlife and the whole process,
which I'm sure was a journey.
So, yeah, I'd love for you tostart with what is Amish?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
What is Amish?
Well, since I grew up in it,it's just normal to me.
So I really need to step back.
And what is that to an outsider?
I think well, it's a way oflife.
Some would say it's a faith.
They are a Bible-believingpeople.
They claim that Jesus is theSon of God, but they hold very
(02:19):
tightly to traditions.
I could give a whole historylesson on where it originated.
Most of the people came overfrom Germany and Switzerland in
the 1700s and their goal was toflee from persecution
(02:45):
persecution for their faithactually and they wanted just to
live in peace and do their ownthing.
And somewhere along the linethey became very traditional.
They didn't want to lose thetraditions of their forefathers
and I don't think it was like.
(03:05):
Even back in my grandpa's dayand age, the difference between
the like what we called Englishwasn't as stark as it is now,
because back then, like theydidn't I guess they didn't have
cars yet Like all the Amish wentwith the English to public
schools and even, like you know,back in the day, the women wore
(03:27):
hats and things like that andthe Amish just kept the head
covering, for the women keptdriving horses and buggies and
they don't use like they don'tbelieve in the modern
conveniences of the world,because they want to.
They want to live a simpler lifeand they believe it's worldly.
And like it has, kind of, Iwould say, more.
(03:49):
More has become like, moretwisted, even where these things
are a sin now, which back inthe day I don't think it was so
much that, but they I mean inorder to to keep a people living
that way, like need some, likethere's some form of control
that will be used, and that wasthat's where it became a sin.
(04:10):
And like driving a car is a sin, for instance, and like we
couldn't even drive bicycles andwe had scooters was like a mode
of transportation, and thenhorses and buggies, and if we
needed, we would have hired ataxi to take us places that the
horse and buggy couldn't take usor couldn't take us fast enough
(04:32):
.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So this is where I, as an outsider of the Amish
community, am wondering the factthat you can't use that for
yourself.
Like you can't have a car, youcan't use electricity yourself.
Like you can't have a car, youcan't use electricity, but you
can hire out for somebody andyou're still using that modern
technology.
So where it is like the line,you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I, I know what you mean but like when you're in it,
it's just a lot of yeah, Idon't even know, it's just a lot
of control, like you're.
I think a lot of people don'teven think through that.
More and more they are.
There's a lot happening in theAmish community.
(05:14):
There's a lot of people thathave been leaving and like
thinking those things through,but even like for my dad and mom
, you know, you just do whatyou're told.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, it's kind of just continuing to live those
traditions and there's a lottaught on leaving.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I was told as a kid, if you leave, you go to hell.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
And I would say more is caught than taught, even.
But it took years for me torealize that maybe God is okay
with me leaving.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, wow, yeah, and it's interesting too, because
there is different types ofAmish too.
Right, there's different likeorders, and some are stricter
than others.
So what order did you belong toor your family belonged to?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It was old order Amish.
We don't have any new orderhere, so it's either you're
Amish or you're not.
There's a lot of differentstrains of Mennonites that would
have come from the Amish.
Well, I guess originally theAmish came from the Mennonites.
But a lot of Amish that leavemight go to Mennonite churches.
But you're either Amish or not.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Okay, I gotcha and then.
So for the viewers who don'tknow what Mennonite is, can you
just describe the differencesbetween those two?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It's very similar in that they're Bible-believing,
but they don't have as manyrules.
They're less conservative.
The old order Mennonites woulddrive horses and buggies.
Like the Amish, they have alittle more modern conveniences.
They do have electricity intheir homes, which anymore a lot
(06:52):
of Amish do too, and even likethe women, little things like
they can wear printed fabricsfor their dresses.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Or the Amish, can't?
They have to have a solid printright and does it have to be
certain colors as well?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
not necessarily.
I mean.
There's certain colors that areconsidered worldly like the
bright and flashier light oneslike a bright red dress, right
yes, so yeah, I don't rememberwhat your original question.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
was there Just kind of the differences for people
who don't know, like, what isMennonite?
Yeah, I mean to an outsider.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I think it's basically the same thing To the
Amish and the Mennonite.
Oh, those little differencesare huge.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You get to drive a bicycle?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I don't.
You're wearing a printed dress?
I don't.
And like even the sizes andshapes of coverings, like you
know what groups they're part of, just by the shape covering
that the women wear.
That's so interesting yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So let's go to your story then.
So what do you remember, likeas early as going back to your
childhood?
What was your life like?
Because, at the end of the day,every person, even with the
same community, has a differentexperience.
So I want to hear from yourexperience of what it was like
for you specifically to grow upin that community and what was
(08:17):
your day-to-day like Like?
What do you remember aboutgrowing up and some of those
early experiences being an Amish?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
some of those early experiences being an Amish, yeah
.
So I want to start by sayingthat I love how God redeems all
things.
So when I start my story bytalking about trauma, I want you
to remember that that's thebest part.
But yeah, I don't have greatmemories of being a child and of
growing up.
There was a lot of dysfunctionin the home.
(08:47):
There was sexual abuse allaround me, and as a kid I didn't
even know how, or I didn't askfor help.
I didn't ask adults for help.
I just learned to take care ofmyself and protect myself, and I
remember as a seven oreight-year-old, when I was
(09:11):
praying by my bedside, I prayedthat I would wake up and be 17.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I think I knew that I was little and powerless.
I think I knew that I waslittle and powerless and and I
it was about like being able todefend myself and creativity,
and I just feel like I missed ona lot of that.
But at the same time, like youknow, I don't regret my story
(09:52):
and, like I said, you know, godredeems all things and I've
experienced so much healing fromso much of that.
So, yeah, from at age six Iwould have started school.
The Amish have their ownprivate one-room schools where
grades one through eight willattend, and so I did school.
I didn't love it.
(10:15):
Learning was pretty easy for me, like I wasn't challenged, like
I wish I would have been, buteven even like eighth grade, I
couldn't wait to be done and Ithought I never said what like
the cool thing for girls was tosay that, like when I grew up,
I'm going to be a teacher, likeI didn't.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I didn't want that and I didn't care to be like
cool either.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I didn't want to be a teacher, but at 18, I became a
teacher.
Wow, a teacher, but at 18, Ibecame a teacher.
I think I had seven grades myfirst year and 24 students and I
taught for a total of aroundseven years then In the Amish
community, right, right, amishand Mennonite Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So I'm going to just backtrack a little bit in what
you said.
You said that there was a lotof abuse and dysfunction, and
this is something that I'veheard previously too about the
Amish community.
Would you say that it's prettycommon for there to be like
sexual abuse within, like seeingother yeah happening to other?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
kids.
It wasn't just necessarily likemy life, my story.
It was my friends, my cousins.
Yeah, so my experience?
(11:37):
Yes, Some would argue that, butI think most wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in
that community?
Most wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in
that community?
I think it has—this is my ownthoughts on that—it definitely
has—.
I think, for some reason,sexual abuse often hides behind
religion, like where there'scontrol and fear already present
(12:07):
, and it's not that hard for anabuser to control by fear or
using tactics of fear.
Because you see that in theCatholic community too, you see
that in the Mennonite community,you see that in like the
Catholic community too, you seethat in the Mennonite community.
I guess I don't fullyunderstand that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
but yeah, I mean, I think you're right in a sense,
because if there's a way thatyou can hide behind something
like religion and if you can useyour dominance of authority and
control, you're able to keepthose people quiet, and if women
and kids are already used tobeing dominated and controlled
it's not like a foreign thing,yeah, and so at what point did
(12:55):
you realize that?
what age would you say that yourealized that you no longer
wanted to be Amish, or that youfelt like this wasn't for you At
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Speaker 1 (13:47):
I remember the first time I had thoughts of it was at
15.
It could have been before that,but then it was more just like
wishful thinking.
Because way beyond that in my20s, like a couple years before
I left at age 26, I still didn'tthink that it's possible for me
(14:10):
to ever leave for one, and thatGod—I was still conditioned to
believe that God wants me AmishAnd— yeah, it wasn't until a
couple of years before I leftthat I actually realized that,
wait, these thoughts keep comingup, which, looking back, I
(14:31):
think it was Holy Spirit, but Iwas just resisting them or
feeling like I shouldn't bethinking these thoughts, and I
finally realized wait, even ifGod doesn't like that, I'm
thinking this.
This is a real struggle for me,so let me talk to God about it.
(14:54):
And it didn't take long, once Istarted talking to God about it
, that my eyes were opened and Irealized that just a lot of
things became clear to me that Iwasn't aware of, even though
there's a lot of things that Idid know.
The truth in that one thingjust took a long time to
actually flip and I was able tosee Can I share one thing?
(15:21):
I had this vision at age 20 or21 of me, where I was in a
convertible.
God was at the wheel, I was inthe passenger seat, my feet were
on the dash, I was leaning backand just laughing.
I love speed, I love wind in myface, roller coasters skydiving
(15:41):
, that kind of thing, and so Iwas just having the time of my
life and it was a wild ride.
My hair was blowing in the windand, yeah, so soon it was over
and God asked me do you trust me?
Like that, I was so free, I wasso knowing that God's got me.
(16:02):
God is at the wheel and thatone just keeps coming back to me
.
Ever since it's been over 10years and it's just always like
can I trust God like that?
Be that free and know that heis?
That much has got me.
But what's ironic.
What I wanted to point out isthis was way before I considered
(16:24):
leaving.
And why did I and you were, howold at this dream 20 or 21.
Ok, why did I not question Godin the fact that?
Because I believed this visionwas from God.
Why did I not question the factthat we were in a car?
Cars are a sin, right?
Yeah, and my hair was down Likethat's not OK.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Right, it was so funny and never thought like,
even you know right, evenworldly, yeah but this.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I never thought about it until like years after I
left that way.
Why did I not question god onthat?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
wow, that's interesting, and do you think
that you not thinking thatthere's an outside possibility
that exists for you has anythingto do with that?
You haven't seen that examplemodeled.
Were there not people withinyour community that were leaving
?
Um, what was your experiencelike with that?
(17:21):
With just like the outsiders?
And it seems like you didn'thave hope.
That is possible for you, and Ijust kind of want to dive into
why that would be a reality foryou yeah, that's a great
question.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because my brother had left about five years before
I did and I did in thementality that I need to take
care of myself.
I didn't think to ask for help,I didn't think to reach out and
(18:00):
ask even questions.
I had so many questions as akid and I did ask some questions
, to the point that I was toldnot to read the Bible so much.
But then I knew that there's alimit of how far I can go.
(18:24):
But yeah, I think it's justthat I didn't know how to ask
for help because there wouldhave been that there.
And so when your brother left,did you have any communication
with him or was heexcommunicated from your family?
(18:45):
He was excommunicated in asense, like I think the true
definition of excommunication isyou don't communicate with them
, right, and they're likeshunned completely.
So like we would use thoseterms there.
We would use the term shunned,but you can still talk to people
.
So basically when he left hehad been a member.
(19:07):
So if you're not a member,you're not excommunicated.
But since he had been a memberof the church which, if you
don't mind, I'll just back upand give a backstory on that he
had been having a really hardtime with life and some things
and I was concerned for him andI prayed for him a ton that
summer that he would, yeah, justthat God would help him, and I
(19:29):
knew that like he would findfreedom in Jesus.
But I didn't think that he wouldleave the Amish in the process,
because he did find Jesus.
He totally became a differentperson, became free.
But then he left the Amish andthat was a moment that I
realized that something is notright, because the community
(19:51):
didn't seem to care when he wasstruggling.
And now that he is free andfound Jesus, they're saying he's
going to hell and I knew thatGod answered my prayers.
I knew without a shadow of adoubt that God answered my
prayers and so that was when,like I said, I realized
something is off, because Godanswered my prayers and they're
(20:13):
saying he's going to hell, so henever.
He always stayed with livingwith my parents until he got
married years later.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So in that way, like so he left the community, left
the church.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I guess he didn't technically leave the community,
he left the church and becauseof that the church has this
whole procedure, like they askyou to come back to church and
then, if you don't, they decideto ban you and shun you.
And what is the shunningprocess like?
Yeah, it's not like you mightthink it is.
(20:51):
That's what I'm asking.
Yeah, I think it was meant tobe more strict than it is right
now, but right now the mainthing is that you can't eat at
the same table as your family,as any member of the Amish.
So if you're invited to anAmish wedding, they'll set you
at a different table.
Some people joke and say it'sthe sinner's table, but that's
(21:14):
not true.
And then also, you can't takethings off of their hand.
So if I would hand something tosomebody who's Amish, they're
not allowed to take it off of myhand.
So you couldn't give a letter,for example.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Right or even money at a store.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
There's some stores that will ask you to put the
money on the counter and thenthey'll pick it up Interesting.
So it's that, and they can'tdrive with you in the vehicle.
I think those are the mainthings.
Okay, and those are the mainthings.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Okay, and those are the things that apply to your
brother specifically.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Right, okay, and he would eat at a separate table
for years.
I left five years after him.
For a couple years we didn'teat at the same table as my
family.
But today there's no shunning.
My family doesn't shun me atall.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Today there's no shunning my family doesn't shun
me at all and so he had to eatat a separate dining table while
your family dined together.
Okay, yeah, and I have heardthat before.
There's another guy that I'vetalked to who was ex-Amish, and
he still, when he goes to visithis family, he still has to sit
at the separate table, which isinteresting In a way.
(22:28):
They're welcoming him back tothe house, but yet they're
making an obvious physicalseparation that you're not with
us.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And there is a lot of that where parents might be
okay, like the parents stilllove the child and accept and
welcome the child or their sonor daughter, but they feel
obligated not to Like.
For my parents, if the churchwould find out that we're eating
at the same table, that they'renot shunning us, they could get
(23:00):
shunned for that.
So they're just doing theirduty, like a lot of them would
would say I'm just doing what Ineed to do.
I don't want to do this.
My grandpa already told me that.
I want to offer to give him aride somewhere, and now he's
going to say no and he's likeyou know I would but I can't.
(23:21):
And then there's also parentsthat I have, friends who left,
and they're basically disownedfrom their family.
They can't even come back onthe property, but that is more
just coming out of their ownplace.
That's not really because ofthe church that they're doing
that it's almost like they'rerejecting because the person
(23:44):
left and it's a big point ofcontention in the Amish
community right now.
There's a lot of people that areactually stepping up, speaking
up and saying this is not okay,that we're doing this.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That we're shunning and creating a separation if
they leave.
Right, okay, right, yeah,that's a thing called when you
were 18, what is that thing?
Rumspringa, yes, so did you gothrough that?
(24:17):
Or is that designated for males, only females?
Can you tell us more about thatand why that exists?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Right, it starts at age 16 for male and female.
It's a term that we would haveused like we're now in the age
of Rumspringa, but in this dayand age it looks differently
than it used to and I think whatthe outside world reads about
(24:50):
and knows about it is what itused to be.
And that is when you turn 16,your parents let you sow your
wild oats, you get to go out andexperience the world and party
and drive vehicles and whatever.
Get that out of your system.
And then you get to decide,decide do I want to go back to
the Amish or not?
That's what it's portrayed atin like all the Amish books and
(25:14):
that's like the number onequestion I get when people find
out that I grew up Amish.
Like did you do the rumspringa?
So I didn't.
I didn't do that and likeanymore don't.
It's not portrayed as a choiceat all.
Like your parents expect you tostay Amish and while there are
some youth, when they turn 16,they'll join.
Like you decide there's a bunchof different groups and you
(25:37):
decide which group that you wantto be a part of.
And some of them do have likego out and they won't dress
Amish anymore.
They have vehicles, they party,like all the things.
And then there's other groupsthat you know have rules and
things like that.
So I went to a group that hadrules and so I was a good girl,
(25:58):
I didn't go out and party and doall the things, but did your
parents give you the option?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
like you can go and party, you can go and do these
things if you choose to Like.
This is your time, or was thatnot?
No, no, okay, and that'sprobably why you chose to be
with a good crowd, right, ordoes it?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
not.
I mean it's like where were mysiblings and my cousins and my
friends?
Yeah, kind of followed thatpath.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And I don't have a desire to go out and party, but
I didn't really have connectionsto even do that, if I would
have wanted to yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, so that's interesting.
So you're saying that withinyour experience it's portrayed
like you have these years toexplore, figure out what you
want to do, if you want to stayor you want to leave.
But from your experience itwasn't really encouraged and
that wasn't the case, Right?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I love God's gift of free will and choice and that is
one thing that even when I wasthere, that was really hard for
me.
For example, when I gotbaptized, I didn't feel like it
was my choice and that justupset me to the core.
Well, I could give that storywhen I struggled with it the
(27:18):
entire summer long, because it'snot that I didn't want to
follow Jesus.
I did want Jesus, but I wantedit to be my own choice.
And also it wasn't really justabout oh, you're making a choice
for the Lord, it was likeyou're making a choice to be
Amish, and it just bugged me tono end that this I didn't know
(27:40):
how to make it my choice if itwas already decided for me.
And up until the day before thebaptism, because it's like a
whole process summer longprocess up until the day before
the baptism.
Because it's like a wholeprocess, summer long process up
until the day before the baptism, and they present it to you as
like this is your choice, but atthe same time, what do you do
if you don't want it?
I didn't feel like I had avoice.
I didn't have the courage tospeak up Up until the day before
(28:03):
.
I was just like I should talkto my dad or I should talk to my
grandpa.
My grandpa was a deacon in thechurch and was like very
involved, but I think I didn'tknow how to handle the—like.
I was afraid of the response,the drama it would cause if
people would find out.
And then I was pretty confidentthat they would convince me to
(28:25):
do it anyway, like there's noway out.
So I yeah, I remember themoment of like resigning to it.
Okay, I'm just gonna go throughwith it.
And I did yeah and.
But I wish, like back to theroom, spring a thing.
I wish not that youth could goout and party, and, like you
(28:45):
know, so they're wild oats, butI wish it would be presented to
everybody as a choice.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And did you witness that being presented to other
people perhaps not your family,but outside of your family,
within your community or no,never.
But you said some people didjoin those groups where they
were partying, but it was stillnot right courage to leave that
could have been a choice givento them by their parents, like
(29:15):
their parents were okay withthem doing that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
some might not have been, but I think even in those
groups your parents wanted youto stay Amish.
Granted, there were someparents that did help their kids
leave before they ever joinedthe church.
So maybe I shouldn't say that'sacross the board.
That is not across the board,but by far the majority of the
(29:41):
parents wanted them to stayAmish.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Was there a point in your life that you realized that
you no longer wanted to beAmish?
Was it a gradualintensification or was there a
particular moment that you feltlike this isn't for me and I
have to leave?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Right, and there was both.
It was gradual and I had thatone moment and, like I said, I
thought about it at 15.
It kept coming up throughoutthe years and then in my search
for for truth, and like seeingthat, like when my brother left
the Amish, like that's not okayand realizing I don't really
want to be a part of of this,like I hated the separation,
(30:22):
like that's not how it's goingto be in heaven, and like I was
convinced like God didn't likeit either and it's like I don't
want to be a part of that.
But because I still thoughtthat God wants me Amish, I just
prayed for change in where I wasand I wanted to experience the
(30:43):
Holy Spirit that Actsexperienced in the Bible and I
prayed for that.
And I wanted those experience,the Holy Spirit that Acts
experienced in the Bible, and Iprayed for that and I wanted
those things to change.
As far as that, you don't, youknow, shun somebody that leaves
and is still a Christian.
But yeah, I think I alreadyshared how you know, I had this
(31:06):
moment where I realized, oh, Ican talk to God about it and,
like, once I started having theconversations with God, it
didn't take very long to realizethat you know what I don't
think.
I think what God has for me isway beyond what you know is in
this little box, but I stilldidn't know what, you know how
(31:28):
that would be possible.
Like it looked way beyond myreach.
I didn't know how to do it.
I didn't know even who to talkto.
Like a lot of that process wasjust by myself Because, like,
even some of my friends like gotvery defensive if I would bring
up things like that and myfamily, you know, wasn't in
(31:50):
favor of it either.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So did you have these conversations with your family
that you were consideringleaving?
How did you know they were notin favor?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean, I just knew that I did have conversations
with different of my siblingsand then I did with my parents,
like a couple months before Ileft.
It was before we had our uh,communion.
We had communion every springand every fall and like with
communion you kind of agree tolike all the church, like with
(32:22):
being Amish, kind of thing solike you were continuing to kind
of rededicate yourself to thechurch the rules.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Is that what you mean ?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yes, ok, and I didn't want to do that again.
So I had the conversation withmy parents and they convinced me
to go along with it one moretime.
They were really nice in thatconversation.
I don't think they were totallysurprised Because I think there
(32:49):
were enough of signs Like momwas concerned about the books I
was reading and things like that.
And then I yeah, so I did goalong with communion that fall
and then I became very depressed.
(33:10):
I felt I dealt with depression alot of my younger years but I
just became very depressed andvery.
I felt suppressed because Ifelt like I didn't have a voice.
Whenever I would speak up, itwas either shut down or not
received and I felt oppressedand trapped.
And it was just another momentwhere I was like God, like you
(33:30):
need to make a way and like also, you know, joseph was in prison
and God could, like he couldhave been there the rest of his
life and God made a way out.
And that was kind of like God,you can do that for me too.
And yeah, it is pretty crazythat I didn't just talk to my
brother and ask him to help meout, like my brother knew that I
was.
(33:50):
You know what I was kind ofgoing through, but I think he
also had.
He definitely knew, but he alsohad the pressure of you know,
he was still living at home withmy parents and if he, if he
like, helps his siblings leaveor or is an influence in that
(34:13):
way like there's trouble for him, um, and so he left, but he was
living with the family in.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Just to kind of get a better picture of what that
meant, was he working outsidethe home, was he using the
modern technology but notbringing it back in the property
?
So his lifestyle was different,but he was still living in the
properties, that which you'rereferring to.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So he left the Amish way of living, I guess.
So he got a truck or a car, avehicle and he wouldn't dress
Amish anymore.
He went to a different church.
Basically he could, like he wason his own.
There were some things hecouldn't bring into the home,
like you said, but he wasn'tAmish anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But was, and he would come back into the home, say,
dressed in more modern clothes,right?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Right, I think at first he wasn't really allowed
to and then, yeah, eventuallythey got used to it, Like at
first he wasn't allowed to parkthe vehicle on the property and
then that you know kind of woreoff and different things like
that.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I got you.
So, going back to your story,though, so you're saying, even
though your brother left you, hewould have had the pressure of
not being that bad influence.
So how did you start to, youknow, essentially work towards
leaving?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And I there was okay.
So the last thing that held meback was the fear of
disappointing my parents.
I knew that the Bible sayshonor your father and mother and
obey your parents in all things.
And I desperately wanted tolike, believe the whole Bible
and obey it in its entirety, butI didn't know what to do with
(35:56):
those verses and I also knewthose verses will be used
against me if I do leave.
And I didn't know what to dowith those verses and I also
knew those verses will be usedagainst me if I do leave.
And I didn't know what to dowith that.
And then I had this moment whereGod asked me if my allegiance
is to Him first, and I was like,ok, like that was the moment I
knew I'm leaving.
I knew that, ok, I will bearthe consequences of
(36:20):
disappointing my parents tofollow him.
And, yeah, that was the momentI knew I'm leaving.
But I still didn't know how orwhat to do or where.
Even job-wise, I would have hadto find a different job.
Everything would change.
What church would I go to?
I had no idea.
And then that was when I criedout to God to make a way and
(36:48):
things just kind of landed in mylap.
We had because I was depressedmy parents set up for me to meet
with a counselor and then wehad a second meeting where they
were involved, which that wasnone of my doing, but it was an
opportunity for me to share myheart with my parents.
That I couldn't have done hadthe counselor not been there to
ask all the questions and giveme the floor.
(37:10):
So it was very beautiful for meand how God made a way for that
, but it was alsoheart-wrenching because my
parents were just devastated.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, and so this counselor?
Was it outside the Amishcommunity?
Right, okay, but your parentswere willing to go get the help
for you, even though it'soutside the community.
Is it because he was Mennonite?
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Which might've helped but yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So within that, you were sharing your heart and they
knew that part of the cause wasthat you were felt, feeling
like you had no choice, right,like you felt oppressed, like
you felt suppressed.
You're saying they knew that.
I'm saying through the process,right, is that what was
revealed to your parents fromyour depression through the
(38:02):
counselor?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
right that, yeah, they pretty soon found out.
You know where I'm at and that,um, I don't want to like.
Basically, like I told them, Ifeel like God's calling me out
and that I'm leaving and whatwas their reaction?
I mean they were just, they weredevastated, like they didn't.
(38:29):
Their reaction in that room waslike I think they were just
quiet, they didn't, you know,react.
Really.
It was more afterwards that itwas very dramatic leaving.
I'll just say that.
Very dramatic, um, and then,yeah, I I do remember my brother
(38:53):
had been talking to me aboutgoing to Uganda.
He had been to Uganda severaltimes and he's like you'd love,
love it, you should go.
And I knew I wanted to go.
So then, after I talked to myparents, I'm like okay, I told
him I'm leaving.
So I like, with that, told mylike my brother helped me get my
passport and all the things andI that was the first time I
(39:15):
didn't dress Amish, the firsttime, like I don't dress Amish
the first time.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but I got on a plane
all by myself and flew toBelgium.
I'd never flown before, weweren't allowed to fly, but I
flew to Belgium all by myselfwhere I met the rest of the team
which I'd never met thesepeople before, spent the two
weeks with them in Uganda, andthat was that.
(39:39):
I wasn't Amish anymore.
But then I, after that I cameback and I moved out from my
parents home, which they didn't.
It's not like they asked me to.
They did want me to stay, but Ijust knew I couldn't yeah um, so
I moved out from home and thena couple months later, like a
month and a half later, I wentThailand.
I lived in Thailand for sixmonths, so that was definitely
(40:03):
one thing that you know.
When I left, I wanted to do istravel and see the world and
yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And how did you know that, like, an outside world
existed, that you wanted totravel, like, where did you get
those thoughts and ideas?
From Right books.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah.
I read a lot of books thatdefinitely opened up the world
to me and I loved readingstories of like.
I love how you do your podcastsof stories and that's what I
loved about books is likehearing people's stories and
like how people left Mormonismand how people left the Muslim
faith and, yeah, I was justenamored with stories and it was
(40:50):
definitely through books, andwere those the books that you
said your parents were concernedabout you reading?
Maybe not the stories, butwhatever other books on faith or
whatever I was reading.
But I also had traveled.
So I went to Mexico at age 20and 21 to teach English to a
(41:14):
conservative Mennonite communitydown there.
I know that was huge too.
We weren't allowed to fly, wetook the train.
It was like a three-day trek toMexico, oh wow.
And then we got to see anotherculture that was similar to ours
and I got to see thesimilarities and I don't know,
(41:36):
my eyes were just open and wegot to see the Mexican culture
and like the Indians there andthings like that.
So that also opened up theworld.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wow, so wow.
That was quite a brave thingfor you to do, besides leaving
but then also just goinghardcore and booking that trip,
getting on the plane by yourself, meeting strangers and then
going to a whole foreign countrytogether.
That's totally opposite of whatyour life looked like.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Believe me I was not prepared for it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
What was that experience like for you there,
Like what were some of yourfirst impressions, some things
that maybe shocked youculturally or socially.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
To be honest, the biggest one was the.
Have you been to africa?
I have not like the spiritualrealm there is.
I would say I was alwayssensitive to the spiritual realm
.
I was not prepared for that.
Like there's a lot of ofwitchcraft and and things and
like I, I experienced it and Iwas not prepared for it.
(42:40):
And there again, I didn't knowhow to invite, like the leaders
into my process and askquestions and ask for help.
It's like, oh, I got to takecare of myself, but it was good
and it was also really hard.
But the good parts like I lovedthe African culture.
(43:04):
I loved the, the churches there, their worship, their dance,
and like the kids, I loved, um,just the joy.
Like a lot of these kids livedin so much poverty and yet they
were so happy and so joyful.
And I'm like, what are we likedoing over in America?
Like we're not even gratefuland we have all these things.
Yeah, but no, I definitely fellin love with African culture.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And so, upon leaving the Amish community, did you
have a process where you wereable to kind of unravel and heal
and unpack some of that ofthings that you've been through
in order to get to where you aretoday?
Or what was that like for youto kind of journey from what was
before to where you are now?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I'm still in process,definitely still in process.
But when I went to Thailand acouple months after I left, was
there for six months, that washuge in that I had space and
distance from all the drama thathad been going on and just
being able to process a lot ofthe consequences of my choices
(44:16):
and what I want to do with mylife and stuff and what I want
to do with my life and stuff.
And then I found a church afterI got back.
That was a big part of thatprocess.
There was so much.
I was so shut down in a sensethey would just speak truth over
(44:39):
me and stuff would just breakoff, like, for instance, the one
day one person looked at me andshe was like Mary, it's okay
for you to be beautiful and likeit's it's hard to explain but
like you weren't, beauty was notcelebrated and you weren't
really allowed to be beautifulnot that it was said in those
(45:01):
words, but I got picked on atchurch for how I did my hair and
my dress and things like that,and it wasn't anything that I
was trying to be rebellious inor anything.
So it was very confusing for meand I remember looking in the
mirror.
Not that I thought I wasbeautiful, but I looked in the
mirror and I was intentionallytrying to make my hair look ugly
(45:21):
so that I don't get grief atchurch.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And yeah, so beauty wasn't celebrated and there was
a lot of.
I don't even know if I canarticulate it, but it had to do
with being proud.
You can't be proud, you can'tbe beautiful.
You can't be beautiful, youcan't celebrate your beauty.
So in that moment I realizedthat, wait, beauty, god-designed
(45:47):
beauty, that's a gift.
It's like beauty's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
It's beautiful, and may I say you are beautiful.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Oh, thanks, yeah, and may I say you are beautiful oh
thanks yeah.
Yeah.
So the church communitydefinitely was very, very huge
in speaking truth over me andbelieving in me when I didn't
believe in myself and callingthings out of me.
And I did get baptized again bymy choice and it was the best
(46:20):
day of my life.
And so there was that.
And then in 2020, I actuallyhit an all-time low.
Basically, my life on theoutside was perfect.
(46:40):
I loved my job, I was in school, I loved studying, I loved I
had a great friend group.
I had a great relationship withmy family at the time, but I
couldn't figure out why all thisstuff is coming up from my past
.
So I think that's just thenature of like how that works.
You get to a safe place andthen, like, the trauma of your
(47:01):
past comes up.
It was that, and also I becamelike suicidal.
I don't know how the two tietogether, but I was dealing with
a lot of insomnia, which thatin itself can drive you crazy
pretty fast.
I couldn't sleep at night andthen I was just so tormented
(47:24):
with voices and things and Ijust wanted to escape that and
die and I ended up in thehospital and then in intensive
counseling and the best part ofthe story, like God did deliver
me from that depression and I,yeah, I was totally healed and
(47:56):
delivered in a moment, like thevoices, like I suddenly had
space to think my own thoughts.
The depression left the, I couldsleep again and I got off all
my meds that I had been on likefor that short time, but like it
was still an onward journeyfrom there or an upward journey
from there, but I had like aninstantaneous breakthrough
(48:18):
moment.
That was very significant and Ihave a lot of compassion for
people who are oppressed or dealwith oppression and I also know
that healing is available foreveryone and God's heart for
them is not to be tormented.
But with that I had to dealwith a lot of things from my
(48:43):
past and I think also as a kid Iremember praying countless
times to die.
So some of that stuff eveninner vows or whatever kind of
had to come up and out.
So that was a significant yearand looking back, it was a
(49:06):
really hard year.
But what I remember is how Godcovered me and protected me and
he led me into victory in all ofit.
I don't look back, and I lookback and see God's goodness for
sure.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
After that moment of you being in intensive care, did
you walk through a counselingprocess to help you deal with
some of those childhood traumaand just some of those traumatic
things that happened to you,whether it was within the Amish
community or after the fact?
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, I meant intensive counseling, Like I
went after the hospital, I wentinto like I think I was there
for a month at a place in NorthCarolina, stayed there for a
month, got counseling every daywell, like five days a week, so
that I don't know that.
I want to get into that.
That was actually a really hardseason for me.
(50:02):
I think a lot of what I got outof that was just in how God met
me in that really hard placeand it was there that I got my
healing and my deliverance.
Yeah, yeah healing and mydeliverance.
(50:26):
Yeah, yeah, so I would.
I would still say that you know, it's still like.
The last eight years have beena process of, you know, being
developed in the dark room and,and like you know, being healed
and like being prepared for whatGod has for me in the future.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Well, I love Dr Edith Eager and she talks about how
time doesn't heal.
It's what we do with that time,right, wow?
And that essentially sayshealing is possible when we
choose to take responsibility,choose to take risks and,
finally, we choose to releasethe wound and let go of our past
and the grief.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yes, that is so good.
And the grief yes, that is sogood.
Taking responsibility yeah,that's one huge thing that I had
to learn.
That and I think I was going toshare about that.
When you asked me the questionof the best advice that I was
given, which I can go into itnow or I can save it for then.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah, you can go for it.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Well, I definitely.
It was huge for me to learn totake responsibility for my own
actions in life.
Basically, I think there'ssomething about growing up in a
religious, controlledenvironment that breeds a
powerless mentality.
So if everybody else makes allthe decisions for you and
(51:46):
decides things for you, thenwhen things go wrong it's like
oh, I was.
You know you're not reallyaccountable for it, that you can
decide for yourself what to dowith your life and you don't
(52:10):
know that you can say yes andyou can say no, and you don't
know that another person doesn'tlike you don't have to let
another person decide all thesethings for you.
I don't know if that makessense, but that was definitely
huge for me, like letting go ofthat or like learning that I'm a
powerful person and that thepowerless mentality you know
(52:32):
doesn't need to be my story.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, that's really good.
That's really good.
And she also talks about howvictimhood is optional.
That suffering is not.
We all in this world suffer tosome degree and our suffering
may look different, butessentially we get to choose
what we do with it.
Right, Right, the things thathappen to us aren't always our
fault.
(52:57):
The families we're born into,the countries we're born into,
how we're raised all thosethings is not choices that we
make, but then, as adults, weget to choose.
How do we want to go from here?
Speaker 1 (53:08):
And there's so much freedom in that, when you
realize that you're not at themercy of other people, when you
realize that you can takecontrol to some degree, like can
take control of you, can takeownership of your own life, yeah
, and like no one gets to ruinyour day for you, like, yes, you
(53:29):
um even with like all thethings, the drama and leaving,
like the things that were spokenover me, um, like I don't, like
it's up to me how I respond tothat.
That's actually myresponsibility, and what they
say and what they do, that's noton me.
(53:49):
I don't have to take that uponmyself, but I am responsible for
how I respond.
Not that it doesn't hurt thepain is valid but there's so
much freedom and knowing thatyou know you don't have to give
another person that, that, um,space, or that I don't know what
(54:11):
the word is in your life.
You don't give them the powerthe power, yes.
You don't give them that powerto ruin your life, or yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, or take rental space in your mind right,
Because there you go.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
And I think too, another aspect of that is
forgiveness, like the freedomthat if you don't, if you can't
forgive them, then like the onlyperson who suffers is yourself,
and like you have the power andthe freedom and the choice to
do that.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
So you and your family are incontact now, right, do you see
them?
You guys are reconciled, wouldyou say 100%?
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah, for sure, I love my family.
I was actually in ministryschool for the last three years.
I just got back in May, ormoved back in May, so it's like
the joy of my life is my family.
I'm always welcoming my parents, I have a great relationship
with my parents and there's likeno shunning at all from my
parents or my siblings for thatmatter, but, no, I adore my
(55:18):
family.
There's still a lot of thingsthat we haven't, you know,
talked about, but there's amutual love for each other and,
yeah, I think my siblings havealways been exceptional in how
(55:39):
we always rooted for each otherand were for each other.
So, no matter what choices youmake, yeah, it was hard in the
beginning, because it was, Iunderstand.
It was very confusing for themand it put them on the spot of.
Now other people in thecommunity are looking at them
(56:01):
like are you stable, are yousolid?
You know, are you going to bethe next to leave?
Right?
And, like some of them were indating relationships and that's
a big deal for you know theother person's family.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah, yeah, and so is the rest of your family still
Amish, besides you and yourbrother.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
No, actually only my parents, and my one brother and
his family are so my two sisters.
I have four brothers and twosisters.
My two sisters left it's notlast year anymore, a couple
years ago and three of mybrothers wouldn't be Amish
anymore.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Okay, wow, well, you're so brave for sharing your
story.
It really is.
I mean, the show is called theOnes who Dared right and you
dared to leave something thatyou were really familiar with,
something that was all you knew,and you questioned it and you
made the bold choice of steppingout, leaving and then working
(57:03):
really hard on your own healingjourney.
And you know, and really Ibelieve that kind of never ends.
You know it's a process, right,and I feel like we're we're
always refining and gettingbetter.
But essentially, I think onthis side of heaven, you know
things aren't perfect, so forsure you know.
But I'm just so proud of youfor sharing your story, for
(57:24):
being here, but also for takingownership of your story and your
healing, your responsibility,which is incredible, and you
already shared one of the lastquestions about best advice.
I'm curious to know, besidesthe things we talked about, what
is one of the bravest thingsyou've done, besides going to
another country on your own andleaving the Amish community,
(57:48):
which those are all really,really big things?
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah Well, I always say that the hardest thing I
ever did was leave the Amish.
Therefore, I think that is thebravest thing I ever did.
Besides that I guess I didn'treally come up with an answer
Like I feel like I've done bravethings.
I think just like forging myown path, like going to school
(58:14):
if you know, I wanted to go toschool, go to college, do the
things that were available forme to do.
That I didn't necessarily haveEven going to school, getting my
GED and then going to college.
I had no idea what I was doing,but going after it anyway
(58:37):
because I could.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
And the thing is, mary, is that most people don't
know what they're doing.
They just do it, and then theylearn along the way which is the
best way to go about it.
Sometimes you just go for it.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
You have the desire, you just go for it, but you
still are around people who aredoing it and have done it and
know the language of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
That's true For most people.
Are you friends with peopleoutside of your community now?
Or I should say, are youfriends with people who were
ex-Amish?
Is there a community of kind ofpeople who are together, that
are For?
Speaker 1 (59:10):
sure.
Yeah, the church.
Some of my close friends areex-Amish, and then the church
that I'm currently attending ismostly ex-Amish or ex-Mennonite.
Yeah, there's quite a communityby now, for sure.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Yeah, what would you say were pivotal books that have
transformed your life?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, like I said, I've read a lot of books and
they have transformed my life.
I don't mean to be cliche, butlike the Bible definitely, to be
honest, was the mosttransformative book I ever read.
And, like, even when peopleused it against me or twisted it
or used it to manipulate me, Ididn't, I like, didn't
(59:58):
miraculously, didn't run from it, I just delved in deeper
because I knew the truth isthere, I knew it's there.
My prayer over and over was God.
I want to know the truth as itis, not as we think it is, which
I think is a CS Lewis quote,because I was just desperate for
truth.
Like, even when you know it,just it looked, it felt so
(01:00:26):
clouded, like I didn't, but Iwas so hungry for it.
And Bill Johnson also says thatthe Bible is the only book where
the author shows up when youread it.
I love that.
The Bible is the only bookwhere the author shows up when
you read it.
I love that.
So that, and then, besides that, I love Chris Vallotton's book,
(01:00:46):
the Supernatural Ways ofRoyalty.
It's discovering the rights andprivileges of being a daughter
or son of God.
That was huge in understandingyour inheritance in God and what
it means to have heaven on yourside and that it doesn't limit
(01:01:08):
you.
It like you gain so much by it.
It's not as some people think.
Oh, if I believe in God, thenthat limits me to this little
life.
You actually get so much.
Your life expands and you haveso much more available to you.
That, and speaking of takingownership of your life, danny
(01:01:34):
Silk's books Keep your Love Onthe Culture of honor His books
were transformative as well.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Beautiful.
Well, you're so courageous,mary, and beautiful We'll just
add that in there.
So thank you so much for comingin here and sharing your story.
I know it's going to touchpeople and you're really brave.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Thank you and thanks for the opportunity.
This was fun.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Thank you for listening to the ones who dare
podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
And that's like the number one question I get when
people find out that I grew upAmish.
Like did you do the rumspringa?
So I didn't do that and likeanymore it's not portrayed as a
choice at all.
Like your parents expect you tostay Amish and while there are
some youth when they turn 16,they'll join.
Like there's a bunch ofdifferent groups and you decide
(00:23):
which group that you want to bea part of and some of them do
have like go out and they won'tdress Amish anymore.
They have vehicles, they party,like all the things.
And then there's other groupsthat you know have rules.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hey friends, welcome to the Ones who Dare podcast,
where stories of courage areelevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here, maryAsh.
(01:03):
Welcome to the Once a Dearpodcast.
I am so excited to have you inthe studio today.
Thanks for having me.
I'm glad to be here and I am sojust honored the fact that
you're here to share your storyand so, essentially, the series
is about leaving Amish andyou're someone who was once part
of an Amish community and nowyou're no longer part of it.
(01:25):
So we're going to kind of takea deep dive into what is Amish
to people who have no idea, whomay have never heard about the
Amish community, and essentially, your story of what it was like
to be living as an Amish child.
How did you come aboutrealizing it's not something you
(01:45):
wanted to do the rest of yourlife and the whole process,
which I'm sure was a journey.
So, yeah, I'd love for you tostart with what is Amish?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
What is Amish?
Well, since I grew up in it,it's just normal to me.
So I really need to step back.
And what is that to an outsider?
I think well, it's a way oflife.
Some would say it's a faith.
They are a Bible-believingpeople.
They claim that Jesus is theSon of God, but they hold very
(02:19):
tightly to traditions.
I could give a whole historylesson on where it originated.
Most of the people came overfrom Germany and Switzerland in
the 1700s and their goal was toflee from persecution
(02:45):
persecution for their faithactually and they wanted just to
live in peace and do their ownthing.
And somewhere along the linethey became very traditional.
They didn't want to lose thetraditions of their forefathers
and I don't think it was like.
(03:05):
Even back in my grandpa's dayand age, the difference between
the like what we called Englishwasn't as stark as it is now,
because back then, like theydidn't I guess they didn't have
cars yet Like all the Amish wentwith the English to public
schools and even, like you know,back in the day, the women wore
(03:27):
hats and things like that andthe Amish just kept the head
covering, for the women keptdriving horses and buggies and
they don't use like they don'tbelieve in the modern
conveniences of the world,because they want to.
They want to live a simpler lifeand they believe it's worldly.
And like it has, kind of, Iwould say, more.
(03:49):
More has become like, moretwisted, even where these things
are a sin now, which back inthe day I don't think it was so
much that, but they I mean inorder to to keep a people living
that way, like need some, likethere's some form of control
that will be used, and that wasthat's where it became a sin.
(04:10):
And like driving a car is a sin, for instance, and like we
couldn't even drive bicycles andwe had scooters was like a mode
of transportation, and thenhorses and buggies, and if we
needed, we would have hired ataxi to take us places that the
horse and buggy couldn't take usor couldn't take us fast enough
(04:32):
.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So this is where I, as an outsider of the Amish
community, am wondering the factthat you can't use that for
yourself.
Like you can't have a car, youcan't use electricity yourself.
Like you can't have a car, youcan't use electricity, but you
can hire out for somebody andyou're still using that modern
technology.
So where it is like the line,you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I, I know what you mean but like when you're in it,
it's just a lot of yeah, Idon't even know, it's just a lot
of control, like you're.
I think a lot of people don'teven think through that.
More and more they are.
There's a lot happening in theAmish community.
(05:14):
There's a lot of people thathave been leaving and like
thinking those things through,but even like for my dad and mom
, you know, you just do whatyou're told.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, it's kind of just continuing to live those
traditions and there's a lottaught on leaving.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I was told as a kid, if you leave, you go to hell.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
And I would say more is caught than taught, even.
But it took years for me torealize that maybe God is okay
with me leaving.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, wow, yeah, and it's interesting too, because
there is different types ofAmish too.
Right, there's different likeorders, and some are stricter
than others.
So what order did you belong toor your family belonged to?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It was old order Amish.
We don't have any new orderhere, so it's either you're
Amish or you're not.
There's a lot of differentstrains of Mennonites that would
have come from the Amish.
Well, I guess originally theAmish came from the Mennonites.
But a lot of Amish that leavemight go to Mennonite churches.
But you're either Amish or not.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Okay, I gotcha and then.
So for the viewers who don'tknow what Mennonite is, can you
just describe the differencesbetween those two?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It's very similar in that they're Bible-believing,
but they don't have as manyrules.
They're less conservative.
The old order Mennonites woulddrive horses and buggies.
Like the Amish, they have alittle more modern conveniences.
They do have electricity intheir homes, which anymore a lot
(06:52):
of Amish do too, and even likethe women, little things like
they can wear printed fabricsfor their dresses.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Or the Amish, can't?
They have to have a solid printright and does it have to be
certain colors as well?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
not necessarily.
I mean.
There's certain colors that areconsidered worldly like the
bright and flashier light oneslike a bright red dress, right
yes, so yeah, I don't rememberwhat your original question.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
was there Just kind of the differences for people
who don't know, like, what isMennonite?
Yeah, I mean to an outsider.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
I think it's basically the same thing To the
Amish and the Mennonite.
Oh, those little differencesare huge.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
You get to drive a bicycle?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I don't.
You're wearing a printed dress?
I don't.
And like even the sizes andshapes of coverings, like you
know what groups they're part of, just by the shape covering
that the women wear.
That's so interesting yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So let's go to your story then.
So what do you remember, likeas early as going back to your
childhood?
What was your life like?
Because, at the end of the day,every person, even with the
same community, has a differentexperience.
So I want to hear from yourexperience of what it was like
for you specifically to grow upin that community and what was
(08:17):
your day-to-day like Like?
What do you remember aboutgrowing up and some of those
early experiences being an Amish?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
some of those early experiences being an Amish, yeah
.
So I want to start by sayingthat I love how God redeems all
things.
So when I start my story bytalking about trauma, I want you
to remember that that's thebest part.
But yeah, I don't have greatmemories of being a child and of
growing up.
There was a lot of dysfunctionin the home.
(08:47):
There was sexual abuse allaround me, and as a kid I didn't
even know how, or I didn't askfor help.
I didn't ask adults for help.
I just learned to take care ofmyself and protect myself, and I
remember as a seven oreight-year-old, when I was
(09:11):
praying by my bedside, I prayedthat I would wake up and be 17.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
I think I knew that I was little and powerless.
I think I knew that I waslittle and powerless and and I
it was about like being able todefend myself and creativity,
and I just feel like I missed ona lot of that.
But at the same time, like youknow, I don't regret my story
(09:52):
and, like I said, you know, godredeems all things and I've
experienced so much healing fromso much of that.
So, yeah, from at age six Iwould have started school.
The Amish have their ownprivate one-room schools where
grades one through eight willattend, and so I did school.
I didn't love it.
(10:15):
Learning was pretty easy for me, like I wasn't challenged, like
I wish I would have been, buteven even like eighth grade, I
couldn't wait to be done and Ithought I never said what like
the cool thing for girls was tosay that, like when I grew up,
I'm going to be a teacher, likeI didn't.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I didn't want that and I didn't care to be like
cool either.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I didn't want to be a teacher, but at 18, I became a
teacher.
Wow, a teacher, but at 18, Ibecame a teacher.
I think I had seven grades myfirst year and 24 students and I
taught for a total of aroundseven years then In the Amish
community, right, right, amishand Mennonite Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So I'm going to just backtrack a little bit in what
you said.
You said that there was a lotof abuse and dysfunction, and
this is something that I'veheard previously too about the
Amish community.
Would you say that it's prettycommon for there to be like
sexual abuse within, like seeingother yeah happening to other?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
kids.
It wasn't just necessarily likemy life, my story.
It was my friends, my cousins.
Yeah, so my experience?
(11:37):
Yes, Some would argue that, butI think most wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in
that community?
Most wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and why do you think that's more prevalent in
that community?
I think it has—this is my ownthoughts on that—it definitely
has—.
I think, for some reason,sexual abuse often hides behind
religion, like where there'scontrol and fear already present
(12:07):
, and it's not that hard for anabuser to control by fear or
using tactics of fear.
Because you see that in theCatholic community too, you see
that in the Mennonite community,you see that in like the
Catholic community too, you seethat in the Mennonite community.
I guess I don't fullyunderstand that.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
but yeah, I mean, I think you're right in a sense,
because if there's a way thatyou can hide behind something
like religion and if you can useyour dominance of authority and
control, you're able to keepthose people quiet, and if women
and kids are already used tobeing dominated and controlled
it's not like a foreign thing,yeah, and so at what point did
(12:55):
you realize that?
what age would you say that yourealized that you no longer
wanted to be Amish, or that youfelt like this wasn't for you At
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Speaker 1 (13:47):
I remember the first time I had thoughts of it was at
15.
It could have been before that,but then it was more just like
wishful thinking.
Because way beyond that in my20s, like a couple years before
I left at age 26, I still didn'tthink that it's possible for me
(14:10):
to ever leave for one, and thatGod—I was still conditioned to
believe that God wants me AmishAnd— yeah, it wasn't until a
couple of years before I leftthat I actually realized that,
wait, these thoughts keep comingup, which, looking back, I
(14:31):
think it was Holy Spirit, but Iwas just resisting them or
feeling like I shouldn't bethinking these thoughts, and I
finally realized wait, even ifGod doesn't like that, I'm
thinking this.
This is a real struggle for me,so let me talk to God about it.
(14:54):
And it didn't take long, once Istarted talking to God about it
, that my eyes were opened and Irealized that just a lot of
things became clear to me that Iwasn't aware of, even though
there's a lot of things that Idid know.
The truth in that one thingjust took a long time to
actually flip and I was able tosee Can I share one thing?
(15:21):
I had this vision at age 20 or21 of me, where I was in a
convertible.
God was at the wheel, I was inthe passenger seat, my feet were
on the dash, I was leaning backand just laughing.
I love speed, I love wind in myface, roller coasters skydiving
(15:41):
, that kind of thing, and so Iwas just having the time of my
life and it was a wild ride.
My hair was blowing in the windand, yeah, so soon it was over
and God asked me do you trust me?
Like that, I was so free, I wasso knowing that God's got me.
(16:02):
God is at the wheel and thatone just keeps coming back to me
.
Ever since it's been over 10years and it's just always like
can I trust God like that?
Be that free and know that heis?
That much has got me.
But what's ironic.
What I wanted to point out isthis was way before I considered
(16:24):
leaving.
And why did I and you were, howold at this dream 20 or 21.
Ok, why did I not question Godin the fact that?
Because I believed this visionwas from God.
Why did I not question the factthat we were in a car?
Cars are a sin, right?
Yeah, and my hair was down Likethat's not OK.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Right, it was so funny and never thought like,
even you know right, evenworldly, yeah but this.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I never thought about it until like years after I
left that way.
Why did I not question god onthat?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
wow, that's interesting, and do you think
that you not thinking thatthere's an outside possibility
that exists for you has anythingto do with that?
You haven't seen that examplemodeled.
Were there not people withinyour community that were leaving
?
Um, what was your experiencelike with that?
(17:21):
With just like the outsiders?
And it seems like you didn'thave hope.
That is possible for you, and Ijust kind of want to dive into
why that would be a reality foryou yeah, that's a great
question.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because my brother had left about five years before
I did and I did in thementality that I need to take
care of myself.
I didn't think to ask for help,I didn't think to reach out and
(18:00):
ask even questions.
I had so many questions as akid and I did ask some questions
, to the point that I was toldnot to read the Bible so much.
But then I knew that there's alimit of how far I can go.
(18:24):
But yeah, I think it's justthat I didn't know how to ask
for help because there wouldhave been that there.
And so when your brother left,did you have any communication
with him or was heexcommunicated from your family?
(18:45):
He was excommunicated in asense, like I think the true
definition of excommunication isyou don't communicate with them
, right, and they're likeshunned completely.
So like we would use thoseterms there.
We would use the term shunned,but you can still talk to people
.
So basically when he left hehad been a member.
(19:07):
So if you're not a member,you're not excommunicated.
But since he had been a memberof the church which, if you
don't mind, I'll just back upand give a backstory on that he
had been having a really hardtime with life and some things
and I was concerned for him andI prayed for him a ton that
summer that he would, yeah, justthat God would help him, and I
(19:29):
knew that like he would findfreedom in Jesus.
But I didn't think that he wouldleave the Amish in the process,
because he did find Jesus.
He totally became a differentperson, became free.
But then he left the Amish andthat was a moment that I
realized that something is notright, because the community
(19:51):
didn't seem to care when he wasstruggling.
And now that he is free andfound Jesus, they're saying he's
going to hell and I knew thatGod answered my prayers.
I knew without a shadow of adoubt that God answered my
prayers and so that was when,like I said, I realized
something is off, because Godanswered my prayers and they're
(20:13):
saying he's going to hell, so henever.
He always stayed with livingwith my parents until he got
married years later.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So in that way, like so he left the community, left
the church.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I guess he didn't technically leave the community,
he left the church and becauseof that the church has this
whole procedure, like they askyou to come back to church and
then, if you don't, they decideto ban you and shun you.
And what is the shunningprocess like?
Yeah, it's not like you mightthink it is.
(20:51):
That's what I'm asking.
Yeah, I think it was meant tobe more strict than it is right
now, but right now the mainthing is that you can't eat at
the same table as your family,as any member of the Amish.
So if you're invited to anAmish wedding, they'll set you
at a different table.
Some people joke and say it'sthe sinner's table, but that's
(21:14):
not true.
And then also, you can't takethings off of their hand.
So if I would hand something tosomebody who's Amish, they're
not allowed to take it off of myhand.
So you couldn't give a letter,for example.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Right or even money at a store.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
There's some stores that will ask you to put the
money on the counter and thenthey'll pick it up Interesting.
So it's that, and they can'tdrive with you in the vehicle.
I think those are the mainthings.
Okay, and those are the mainthings.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Okay, and those are the things that apply to your
brother specifically.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Right, okay, and he would eat at a separate table
for years.
I left five years after him.
For a couple years we didn'teat at the same table as my
family.
But today there's no shunning.
My family doesn't shun me atall.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Today there's no shunning my family doesn't shun
me at all and so he had to eatat a separate dining table while
your family dined together.
Okay, yeah, and I have heardthat before.
There's another guy that I'vetalked to who was ex-Amish, and
he still, when he goes to visithis family, he still has to sit
at the separate table, which isinteresting In a way.
(22:28):
They're welcoming him back tothe house, but yet they're
making an obvious physicalseparation that you're not with
us.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And there is a lot of that where parents might be
okay, like the parents stilllove the child and accept and
welcome the child or their sonor daughter, but they feel
obligated not to Like.
For my parents, if the churchwould find out that we're eating
at the same table, that they'renot shunning us, they could get
(23:00):
shunned for that.
So they're just doing theirduty, like a lot of them would
would say I'm just doing what Ineed to do.
I don't want to do this.
My grandpa already told me that.
I want to offer to give him aride somewhere, and now he's
going to say no and he's likeyou know I would but I can't.
(23:21):
And then there's also parentsthat I have, friends who left,
and they're basically disownedfrom their family.
They can't even come back onthe property, but that is more
just coming out of their ownplace.
That's not really because ofthe church that they're doing
that it's almost like they'rerejecting because the person
(23:44):
left and it's a big point ofcontention in the Amish
community right now.
There's a lot of people that areactually stepping up, speaking
up and saying this is not okay,that we're doing this.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That we're shunning and creating a separation if
they leave.
Right, okay, right, yeah,that's a thing called when you
were 18, what is that thing?
Rumspringa, yes, so did you gothrough that?
(24:17):
Or is that designated for males, only females?
Can you tell us more about thatand why that exists?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Right, it starts at age 16 for male and female.
It's a term that we would haveused like we're now in the age
of Rumspringa, but in this dayand age it looks differently
than it used to and I think whatthe outside world reads about
(24:50):
and knows about it is what itused to be.
And that is when you turn 16,your parents let you sow your
wild oats, you get to go out andexperience the world and party
and drive vehicles and whatever.
Get that out of your system.
And then you get to decide,decide do I want to go back to
the Amish or not?
That's what it's portrayed atin like all the Amish books and
(25:14):
that's like the number onequestion I get when people find
out that I grew up Amish.
Like did you do the rumspringa?
So I didn't.
I didn't do that and likeanymore don't.
It's not portrayed as a choiceat all.
Like your parents expect you tostay Amish and while there are
some youth, when they turn 16,they'll join.
Like you decide there's a bunchof different groups and you
(25:37):
decide which group that you wantto be a part of.
And some of them do have likego out and they won't dress
Amish anymore.
They have vehicles, they party,like all the things.
And then there's other groupsthat you know have rules and
things like that.
So I went to a group that hadrules and so I was a good girl,
(25:58):
I didn't go out and party and doall the things, but did your
parents give you the option?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
like you can go and party, you can go and do these
things if you choose to Like.
This is your time, or was thatnot?
No, no, okay, and that'sprobably why you chose to be
with a good crowd, right, ordoes it?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
not.
I mean it's like where were mysiblings and my cousins and my
friends?
Yeah, kind of followed thatpath.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And I don't have a desire to go out and party, but
I didn't really have connectionsto even do that, if I would
have wanted to yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, so that's interesting.
So you're saying that withinyour experience it's portrayed
like you have these years toexplore, figure out what you
want to do, if you want to stayor you want to leave.
But from your experience itwasn't really encouraged and
that wasn't the case, Right?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I love God's gift of free will and choice and that is
one thing that even when I wasthere, that was really hard for
me.
For example, when I gotbaptized, I didn't feel like it
was my choice and that justupset me to the core.
Well, I could give that storywhen I struggled with it the
(27:18):
entire summer long, because it'snot that I didn't want to
follow Jesus.
I did want Jesus, but I wantedit to be my own choice.
And also it wasn't really justabout oh, you're making a choice
for the Lord, it was likeyou're making a choice to be
Amish, and it just bugged me tono end that this I didn't know
(27:40):
how to make it my choice if itwas already decided for me.
And up until the day before thebaptism, because it's like a
whole process summer longprocess up until the day before
the baptism.
Because it's like a wholeprocess, summer long process up
until the day before the baptism, and they present it to you as
like this is your choice, but atthe same time, what do you do
if you don't want it?
I didn't feel like I had avoice.
I didn't have the courage tospeak up Up until the day before
(28:03):
.
I was just like I should talkto my dad or I should talk to my
grandpa.
My grandpa was a deacon in thechurch and was like very
involved, but I think I didn'tknow how to handle the—like.
I was afraid of the response,the drama it would cause if
people would find out.
And then I was pretty confidentthat they would convince me to
(28:25):
do it anyway, like there's noway out.
So I yeah, I remember themoment of like resigning to it.
Okay, I'm just gonna go throughwith it.
And I did yeah and.
But I wish, like back to theroom, spring a thing.
I wish not that youth could goout and party, and, like you
(28:45):
know, so they're wild oats, butI wish it would be presented to
everybody as a choice.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And did you witness that being presented to other
people perhaps not your family,but outside of your family,
within your community or no,never.
But you said some people didjoin those groups where they
were partying, but it was stillnot right courage to leave that
could have been a choice givento them by their parents, like
(29:15):
their parents were okay withthem doing that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
some might not have been, but I think even in those
groups your parents wanted youto stay Amish.
Granted, there were someparents that did help their kids
leave before they ever joinedthe church.
So maybe I shouldn't say that'sacross the board.
That is not across the board,but by far the majority of the
(29:41):
parents wanted them to stayAmish.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Was there a point in your life that you realized that
you no longer wanted to beAmish?
Was it a gradualintensification or was there a
particular moment that you feltlike this isn't for me and I
have to leave?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Right, and there was both.
It was gradual and I had thatone moment and, like I said, I
thought about it at 15.
It kept coming up throughoutthe years and then in my search
for for truth, and like seeingthat, like when my brother left
the Amish, like that's not okayand realizing I don't really
want to be a part of of this,like I hated the separation,
(30:22):
like that's not how it's goingto be in heaven, and like I was
convinced like God didn't likeit either and it's like I don't
want to be a part of that.
But because I still thoughtthat God wants me Amish, I just
prayed for change in where I wasand I wanted to experience the
(30:43):
Holy Spirit that Actsexperienced in the Bible and I
prayed for that.
And I wanted those experience,the Holy Spirit that Acts
experienced in the Bible, and Iprayed for that and I wanted
those things to change.
As far as that, you don't, youknow, shun somebody that leaves
and is still a Christian.
But yeah, I think I alreadyshared how you know, I had this
(31:06):
moment where I realized, oh, Ican talk to God about it and,
like, once I started having theconversations with God, it
didn't take very long to realizethat you know what I don't
think.
I think what God has for me isway beyond what you know is in
this little box, but I stilldidn't know what, you know how
(31:28):
that would be possible.
Like it looked way beyond myreach.
I didn't know how to do it.
I didn't know even who to talkto.
Like a lot of that process wasjust by myself Because, like,
even some of my friends like gotvery defensive if I would bring
up things like that and myfamily, you know, wasn't in
(31:50):
favor of it either.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
So did you have these conversations with your family
that you were consideringleaving?
How did you know they were notin favor?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean, I just knew that I did have conversations
with different of my siblingsand then I did with my parents,
like a couple months before Ileft.
It was before we had our uh,communion.
We had communion every springand every fall and like with
communion you kind of agree tolike all the church, like with
(32:22):
being Amish, kind of thing solike you were continuing to kind
of rededicate yourself to thechurch the rules.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Is that what you mean ?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yes, ok, and I didn't want to do that again.
So I had the conversation withmy parents and they convinced me
to go along with it one moretime.
They were really nice in thatconversation.
I don't think they were totallysurprised Because I think there
(32:49):
were enough of signs Like momwas concerned about the books I
was reading and things like that.
And then I yeah, so I did goalong with communion that fall
and then I became very depressed.
(33:10):
I felt I dealt with depression alot of my younger years but I
just became very depressed andvery.
I felt suppressed because Ifelt like I didn't have a voice.
Whenever I would speak up, itwas either shut down or not
received and I felt oppressedand trapped.
And it was just another momentwhere I was like God, like you
(33:30):
need to make a way and like also, you know, joseph was in prison
and God could, like he couldhave been there the rest of his
life and God made a way out.
And that was kind of like God,you can do that for me too.
And yeah, it is pretty crazythat I didn't just talk to my
brother and ask him to help meout, like my brother knew that I
was.
(33:50):
You know what I was kind ofgoing through, but I think he
also had.
He definitely knew, but he alsohad the pressure of you know,
he was still living at home withmy parents and if he, if he
like, helps his siblings leaveor or is an influence in that
(34:13):
way like there's trouble for him, um, and so he left, but he was
living with the family in.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Just to kind of get a better picture of what that
meant, was he working outsidethe home, was he using the
modern technology but notbringing it back in the property
?
So his lifestyle was different,but he was still living in the
properties, that which you'rereferring to.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
So he left the Amish way of living, I guess.
So he got a truck or a car, avehicle and he wouldn't dress
Amish anymore.
He went to a different church.
Basically he could, like he wason his own.
There were some things hecouldn't bring into the home,
like you said, but he wasn'tAmish anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
But was, and he would come back into the home, say,
dressed in more modern clothes,right?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Right, I think at first he wasn't really allowed
to and then, yeah, eventuallythey got used to it, Like at
first he wasn't allowed to parkthe vehicle on the property and
then that you know kind of woreoff and different things like
that.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I got you.
So, going back to your story,though, so you're saying, even
though your brother left you, hewould have had the pressure of
not being that bad influence.
So how did you start to, youknow, essentially work towards
leaving?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
And I there was okay.
So the last thing that held meback was the fear of
disappointing my parents.
I knew that the Bible sayshonor your father and mother and
obey your parents in all things.
And I desperately wanted tolike, believe the whole Bible
and obey it in its entirety, butI didn't know what to do with
(35:56):
those verses and I also knewthose verses will be used
against me if I do leave.
And I didn't know what to dowith those verses and I also
knew those verses will be usedagainst me if I do leave.
And I didn't know what to dowith that.
And then I had this moment whereGod asked me if my allegiance
is to Him first, and I was like,ok, like that was the moment I
knew I'm leaving.
I knew that, ok, I will bearthe consequences of
(36:20):
disappointing my parents tofollow him.
And, yeah, that was the momentI knew I'm leaving.
But I still didn't know how orwhat to do or where.
Even job-wise, I would have hadto find a different job.
Everything would change.
What church would I go to?
I had no idea.
And then that was when I criedout to God to make a way and
(36:48):
things just kind of landed in mylap.
We had because I was depressedmy parents set up for me to meet
with a counselor and then wehad a second meeting where they
were involved, which that wasnone of my doing, but it was an
opportunity for me to share myheart with my parents.
That I couldn't have done hadthe counselor not been there to
ask all the questions and giveme the floor.
(37:10):
So it was very beautiful for meand how God made a way for that
, but it was alsoheart-wrenching because my
parents were just devastated.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, and so this counselor?
Was it outside the Amishcommunity?
Right, okay, but your parentswere willing to go get the help
for you, even though it'soutside the community.
Is it because he was Mennonite?
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Which might've helped but yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
So within that, you were sharing your heart and they
knew that part of the cause wasthat you were felt, feeling
like you had no choice, right,like you felt oppressed, like
you felt suppressed.
You're saying they knew that.
I'm saying through the process,right, is that what was
revealed to your parents fromyour depression through the
(38:02):
counselor?
Speaker 1 (38:04):
right that, yeah, they pretty soon found out.
You know where I'm at and that,um, I don't want to like.
Basically, like I told them, Ifeel like God's calling me out
and that I'm leaving and whatwas their reaction?
I mean they were just, they weredevastated, like they didn't.
(38:29):
Their reaction in that room waslike I think they were just
quiet, they didn't, you know,react.
Really.
It was more afterwards that itwas very dramatic leaving.
I'll just say that.
Very dramatic, um, and then,yeah, I I do remember my brother
(38:53):
had been talking to me aboutgoing to Uganda.
He had been to Uganda severaltimes and he's like you'd love,
love it, you should go.
And I knew I wanted to go.
So then, after I talked to myparents, I'm like okay, I told
him I'm leaving.
So I like, with that, told mylike my brother helped me get my
passport and all the things andI that was the first time I
(39:15):
didn't dress Amish, the firsttime, like I don't dress Amish
the first time.
I don't know what I wasthinking, but I got on a plane
all by myself and flew toBelgium.
I'd never flown before, weweren't allowed to fly, but I
flew to Belgium all by myselfwhere I met the rest of the team
which I'd never met thesepeople before, spent the two
weeks with them in Uganda, andthat was that.
(39:39):
I wasn't Amish anymore.
But then I, after that I cameback and I moved out from my
parents home, which they didn't.
It's not like they asked me to.
They did want me to stay, but Ijust knew I couldn't yeah um, so
I moved out from home and thena couple months later, like a
month and a half later, I wentThailand.
I lived in Thailand for sixmonths, so that was definitely
(40:03):
one thing that you know.
When I left, I wanted to do istravel and see the world and
yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And how did you know that, like, an outside world
existed, that you wanted totravel, like, where did you get
those thoughts and ideas?
From Right books.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah.
I read a lot of books thatdefinitely opened up the world
to me and I loved readingstories of like.
I love how you do your podcastsof stories and that's what I
loved about books is likehearing people's stories and
like how people left Mormonismand how people left the Muslim
faith and, yeah, I was justenamored with stories and it was
(40:50):
definitely through books, andwere those the books that you
said your parents were concernedabout you reading?
Maybe not the stories, butwhatever other books on faith or
whatever I was reading.
But I also had traveled.
So I went to Mexico at age 20and 21 to teach English to a
(41:14):
conservative Mennonite communitydown there.
I know that was huge too.
We weren't allowed to fly, wetook the train.
It was like a three-day trek toMexico, oh wow.
And then we got to see anotherculture that was similar to ours
and I got to see thesimilarities and I don't know,
(41:36):
my eyes were just open and wegot to see the Mexican culture
and like the Indians there andthings like that.
So that also opened up theworld.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Wow, so wow.
That was quite a brave thingfor you to do, besides leaving
but then also just goinghardcore and booking that trip,
getting on the plane by yourself, meeting strangers and then
going to a whole foreign countrytogether.
That's totally opposite of whatyour life looked like.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Believe me I was not prepared for it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
What was that experience like for you there,
Like what were some of yourfirst impressions, some things
that maybe shocked youculturally or socially.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
To be honest, the biggest one was the.
Have you been to africa?
I have not like the spiritualrealm there is.
I would say I was alwayssensitive to the spiritual realm
.
I was not prepared for that.
Like there's a lot of ofwitchcraft and and things and
like I, I experienced it and Iwas not prepared for it.
(42:40):
And there again, I didn't knowhow to invite, like the leaders
into my process and askquestions and ask for help.
It's like, oh, I got to takecare of myself, but it was good
and it was also really hard.
But the good parts like I lovedthe African culture.
(43:04):
I loved the, the churches there, their worship, their dance,
and like the kids, I loved, um,just the joy.
Like a lot of these kids livedin so much poverty and yet they
were so happy and so joyful.
And I'm like, what are we likedoing over in America?
Like we're not even gratefuland we have all these things.
Yeah, but no, I definitely fellin love with African culture.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And so, upon leaving the Amish community, did you
have a process where you wereable to kind of unravel and heal
and unpack some of that ofthings that you've been through
in order to get to where you aretoday?
Or what was that like for youto kind of journey from what was
before to where you are now?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I'm still in process,definitely still in process.
But when I went to Thailand acouple months after I left, was
there for six months, that washuge in that I had space and
distance from all the drama thathad been going on and just
being able to process a lot ofthe consequences of my choices
(44:16):
and what I want to do with mylife and stuff and what I want
to do with my life and stuff.
And then I found a church afterI got back.
That was a big part of thatprocess.
There was so much.
I was so shut down in a sensethey would just speak truth over
(44:39):
me and stuff would just breakoff, like, for instance, the one
day one person looked at me andshe was like Mary, it's okay
for you to be beautiful and likeit's it's hard to explain but
like you weren't, beauty was notcelebrated and you weren't
really allowed to be beautifulnot that it was said in those
(45:01):
words, but I got picked on atchurch for how I did my hair and
my dress and things like that,and it wasn't anything that I
was trying to be rebellious inor anything.
So it was very confusing for meand I remember looking in the
mirror.
Not that I thought I wasbeautiful, but I looked in the
mirror and I was intentionallytrying to make my hair look ugly
(45:21):
so that I don't get grief atchurch.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And yeah, so beauty wasn't celebrated and there was
a lot of.
I don't even know if I canarticulate it, but it had to do
with being proud.
You can't be proud, you can'tbe beautiful.
You can't be beautiful, youcan't celebrate your beauty.
So in that moment I realizedthat, wait, beauty, god-designed
(45:47):
beauty, that's a gift.
It's like beauty's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
It's beautiful, and may I say you are beautiful.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Oh, thanks, yeah, and may I say you are beautiful oh
thanks yeah.
Yeah.
So the church communitydefinitely was very, very huge
in speaking truth over me andbelieving in me when I didn't
believe in myself and callingthings out of me.
And I did get baptized again bymy choice and it was the best
(46:20):
day of my life.
And so there was that.
And then in 2020, I actuallyhit an all-time low.
Basically, my life on theoutside was perfect.
(46:40):
I loved my job, I was in school, I loved studying, I loved I
had a great friend group.
I had a great relationship withmy family at the time, but I
couldn't figure out why all thisstuff is coming up from my past
.
So I think that's just thenature of like how that works.
You get to a safe place andthen, like, the trauma of your
(47:01):
past comes up.
It was that, and also I becamelike suicidal.
I don't know how the two tietogether, but I was dealing with
a lot of insomnia, which thatin itself can drive you crazy
pretty fast.
I couldn't sleep at night andthen I was just so tormented
(47:24):
with voices and things and Ijust wanted to escape that and
die and I ended up in thehospital and then in intensive
counseling and the best part ofthe story, like God did deliver
me from that depression and I,yeah, I was totally healed and
(47:56):
delivered in a moment, like thevoices, like I suddenly had
space to think my own thoughts.
The depression left the, I couldsleep again and I got off all
my meds that I had been on likefor that short time, but like it
was still an onward journeyfrom there or an upward journey
from there, but I had like aninstantaneous breakthrough
(48:18):
moment.
That was very significant and Ihave a lot of compassion for
people who are oppressed or dealwith oppression and I also know
that healing is available foreveryone and God's heart for
them is not to be tormented.
But with that I had to dealwith a lot of things from my
(48:43):
past and I think also as a kid Iremember praying countless
times to die.
So some of that stuff eveninner vows or whatever kind of
had to come up and out.
So that was a significant yearand looking back, it was a
(49:06):
really hard year.
But what I remember is how Godcovered me and protected me and
he led me into victory in all ofit.
I don't look back, and I lookback and see God's goodness for
sure.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
After that moment of you being in intensive care, did
you walk through a counselingprocess to help you deal with
some of those childhood traumaand just some of those traumatic
things that happened to you,whether it was within the Amish
community or after the fact?
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, I meant intensive counseling, Like I
went after the hospital, I wentinto like I think I was there
for a month at a place in NorthCarolina, stayed there for a
month, got counseling every daywell, like five days a week, so
that I don't know that.
I want to get into that.
That was actually a really hardseason for me.
(50:02):
I think a lot of what I got outof that was just in how God met
me in that really hard placeand it was there that I got my
healing and my deliverance.
Yeah, yeah healing and mydeliverance.
(50:26):
Yeah, yeah, so I would.
I would still say that you know, it's still like.
The last eight years have beena process of, you know, being
developed in the dark room and,and like you know, being healed
and like being prepared for whatGod has for me in the future.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Well, I love Dr Edith Eager and she talks about how
time doesn't heal.
It's what we do with that time,right, wow?
And that essentially sayshealing is possible when we
choose to take responsibility,choose to take risks and,
finally, we choose to releasethe wound and let go of our past
and the grief.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yes, that is so good.
And the grief yes, that is sogood.
Taking responsibility yeah,that's one huge thing that I had
to learn.
That and I think I was going toshare about that.
When you asked me the questionof the best advice that I was
given, which I can go into itnow or I can save it for then.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah, you can go for it.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Well, I definitely.
It was huge for me to learn totake responsibility for my own
actions in life.
Basically, I think there'ssomething about growing up in a
religious, controlledenvironment that breeds a
powerless mentality.
So if everybody else makes allthe decisions for you and
(51:46):
decides things for you, thenwhen things go wrong it's like
oh, I was.
You know you're not reallyaccountable for it, that you can
decide for yourself what to dowith your life and you don't
(52:10):
know that you can say yes andyou can say no, and you don't
know that another person doesn'tlike you don't have to let
another person decide all thesethings for you.
I don't know if that makessense, but that was definitely
huge for me, like letting go ofthat or like learning that I'm a
powerful person and that thepowerless mentality you know
(52:32):
doesn't need to be my story.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Yeah, that's really good.
That's really good.
And she also talks about howvictimhood is optional.
That suffering is not.
We all in this world suffer tosome degree and our suffering
may look different, butessentially we get to choose
what we do with it.
Right, Right, the things thathappen to us aren't always our
fault.
(52:57):
The families we're born into,the countries we're born into,
how we're raised all thosethings is not choices that we
make, but then, as adults, weget to choose.
How do we want to go from here?
Speaker 1 (53:08):
And there's so much freedom in that, when you
realize that you're not at themercy of other people, when you
realize that you can takecontrol to some degree, like can
take control of you, can takeownership of your own life, yeah
, and like no one gets to ruinyour day for you, like, yes, you
(53:29):
um even with like all thethings, the drama and leaving,
like the things that were spokenover me, um, like I don't, like
it's up to me how I respond tothat.
That's actually myresponsibility, and what they
say and what they do, that's noton me.
(53:49):
I don't have to take that uponmyself, but I am responsible for
how I respond.
Not that it doesn't hurt thepain is valid but there's so
much freedom and knowing thatyou know you don't have to give
another person that, that, um,space, or that I don't know what
(54:11):
the word is in your life.
You don't give them the powerthe power, yes.
You don't give them that powerto ruin your life, or yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, or take rental space in your mind right,
Because there you go.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
And I think too, another aspect of that is
forgiveness, like the freedomthat if you don't, if you can't
forgive them, then like the onlyperson who suffers is yourself,
and like you have the power andthe freedom and the choice to
do that.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
So you and your family are incontact now, right, do you see
them?
You guys are reconciled, wouldyou say 100%?
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah, for sure, I love my family.
I was actually in ministryschool for the last three years.
I just got back in May, ormoved back in May, so it's like
the joy of my life is my family.
I'm always welcoming my parents, I have a great relationship
with my parents and there's likeno shunning at all from my
parents or my siblings for thatmatter, but, no, I adore my
(55:18):
family.
There's still a lot of thingsthat we haven't, you know,
talked about, but there's amutual love for each other and,
yeah, I think my siblings havealways been exceptional in how
(55:39):
we always rooted for each otherand were for each other.
So, no matter what choices youmake, yeah, it was hard in the
beginning, because it was, Iunderstand.
It was very confusing for themand it put them on the spot of.
Now other people in thecommunity are looking at them
(56:01):
like are you stable, are yousolid?
You know, are you going to bethe next to leave?
Right?
And, like some of them were indating relationships and that's
a big deal for you know theother person's family.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah, yeah, and so is the rest of your family still
Amish, besides you and yourbrother.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
No, actually only my parents, and my one brother and
his family are so my two sisters.
I have four brothers and twosisters.
My two sisters left it's notlast year anymore, a couple
years ago and three of mybrothers wouldn't be Amish
anymore.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Okay, wow, well, you're so brave for sharing your
story.
It really is.
I mean, the show is called theOnes who Dared right and you
dared to leave something thatyou were really familiar with,
something that was all you knew,and you questioned it and you
made the bold choice of steppingout, leaving and then working
(57:03):
really hard on your own healingjourney.
And you know, and really Ibelieve that kind of never ends.
You know it's a process, right,and I feel like we're we're
always refining and gettingbetter.
But essentially, I think onthis side of heaven, you know
things aren't perfect, so forsure you know.
But I'm just so proud of youfor sharing your story, for
(57:24):
being here, but also for takingownership of your story and your
healing, your responsibility,which is incredible, and you
already shared one of the lastquestions about best advice.
I'm curious to know, besidesthe things we talked about, what
is one of the bravest thingsyou've done, besides going to
another country on your own andleaving the Amish community,
(57:48):
which those are all really,really big things?
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah Well, I always say that the hardest thing I
ever did was leave the Amish.
Therefore, I think that is thebravest thing I ever did.
Besides that I guess I didn'treally come up with an answer
Like I feel like I've done bravethings.
I think just like forging myown path, like going to school
(58:14):
if you know, I wanted to go toschool, go to college, do the
things that were available forme to do.
That I didn't necessarily haveEven going to school, getting my
GED and then going to college.
I had no idea what I was doing,but going after it anyway
(58:37):
because I could.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
And the thing is, mary, is that most people don't
know what they're doing.
They just do it, and then theylearn along the way which is the
best way to go about it.
Sometimes you just go for it.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
You have the desire, you just go for it, but you
still are around people who aredoing it and have done it and
know the language of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:56):
That's true For most people.
Are you friends with peopleoutside of your community now?
Or I should say, are youfriends with people who were
ex-Amish?
Is there a community of kind ofpeople who are together, that
are For?
Speaker 1 (59:10):
sure.
Yeah, the church.
Some of my close friends areex-Amish, and then the church
that I'm currently attending ismostly ex-Amish or ex-Mennonite.
Yeah, there's quite a communityby now, for sure.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Yeah, what would you say were pivotal books that have
transformed your life?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Yeah, like I said, I've read a lot of books and
they have transformed my life.
I don't mean to be cliche, butlike the Bible definitely, to be
honest, was the mosttransformative book I ever read.
And, like, even when peopleused it against me or twisted it
or used it to manipulate me, Ididn't, I like, didn't
(59:58):
miraculously, didn't run from it, I just delved in deeper
because I knew the truth isthere, I knew it's there.
My prayer over and over was God.
I want to know the truth as itis, not as we think it is, which
I think is a CS Lewis quote,because I was just desperate for
truth.
Like, even when you know it,just it looked, it felt so
(01:00:26):
clouded, like I didn't, but Iwas so hungry for it.
And Bill Johnson also says thatthe Bible is the only book where
the author shows up when youread it.
I love that.
The Bible is the only bookwhere the author shows up when
you read it.
I love that.
So that, and then, besides that, I love Chris Vallotton's book,
(01:00:46):
the Supernatural Ways ofRoyalty.
It's discovering the rights andprivileges of being a daughter
or son of God.
That was huge in understandingyour inheritance in God and what
it means to have heaven on yourside and that it doesn't limit
(01:01:08):
you.
It like you gain so much by it.
It's not as some people think.
Oh, if I believe in God, thenthat limits me to this little
life.
You actually get so much.
Your life expands and you haveso much more available to you.
That, and speaking of takingownership of your life, danny
(01:01:34):
Silk's books Keep your Love Onthe Culture of honor His books
were transformative as well.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Beautiful.
Well, you're so courageous,mary, and beautiful We'll just
add that in there.
So thank you so much for comingin here and sharing your story.
I know it's going to touchpeople and you're really brave.
Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Thank you and thanks for the opportunity.
This was fun.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Thank you for listening to the ones who dare
podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
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