September 16, 2025 • 44 mins
Only 1 in 3 leaders finish well. Why does this happen? Why do so many good leaders fail and not even see it coming? How can you finish well?
In this eye-opening conversation, Peter Greer the CEO of Hope International and author of How Leaders Lose Their Way: And How to Make Sure It Doesn't Happen to You explores the slow, subtle erosion of leadership integrity and what it takes to stay the course. From writing your own eulogy to safeguarding against isolation, Peter shares practical strategies rooted in two decades of global leadership and hard-won wisdom.
In this episode, you'll discover:
- The "Drift" Problem: Why most leaders don’t crash instead they slowly fade, and drift away from initial purpose
- Eulogy vs. Resume Virtues: What writing your own eulogy can teach you about true success
- The Power of Accountability: How “no secrets” meetings can save your leadership ( and why it's important to do life in context of community )
- Sabbath & Slowing Down: Why rest isn’t optional for resilient leadership
- Resignation Letters & Role Clarity: How to remember you're more than your title
- Finishing Well: What separates leaders who thrive long-term from those who don’t
Whether you're leading a team, an organization, or your own life this episode offers a roadmap for staying rooted in purpose, character, and community. Don’t drift. Finish well.
Guest Link:
https://www.peterkgreer.com/about/
https://www.amazon.com/How-Leaders-Lose-Their-Way/dp/1514013541
-Links-
https://www.svetkapopov.com/
https://www.instagram.com/svetka_popov/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Once a Year podcast.
I'm your host, vekka, and thisis a fascinating interview with
Peter Greer.
I could have talked to him forhours.
In this episode we talk abouthis latest book called how
Leaders Lose their Way and howto make sure it doesn't happen
to you, and so I've learned somuch from this conversation,
from his book, and did you knowthat only one in three leaders
(00:25):
succeed and not have the failureof moral failure or whatever it
is that causes them to stumbleand fall off track of what they
initially set out to do?
And so I found that reallyfascinating, and we dug deep
into cultivating integrity,accountability, how to avoid
those traps and how to setyourself up for success so that
(00:46):
it doesn't happen to you, and soI know you're going to be
really encouraged by thisepisode.
We talk about writing eulogies.
There is so much here that youguys will walk away with with
practical steps and tips on howto finish well, so tune in to
this incredible episode.
Hey friends, welcome to theOnes who Dared podcast, where
(01:08):
stories of courage are elevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here.
Peter Greer, welcome to theOnce who Dared podcast.
(01:32):
I am so honored to be sittingacross from you here via Zoom
and learning more about yourstory and the impact that you
have on the world.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, so you're president and CEO of Hope
International, which it focuseson.
It's a nonprofit thatalleviates poverty through
entrepreneurship andmicroeconomics.
I'd love to hear more aboutthat as well, because that's
such a fascinating topic andsomething we hear about mission
trips and different things thatpeople do to impact areas of
(02:05):
poverty, but microeconomics is avery unique approach to that as
well, and so, before we getinto your story, your book, I
would love for you to set up and, let us know, give us a little
backstory of who you are andwhat led you up to this point.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, well, the two areas connect of the story and
this broader field ofmicroenterprise development.
When I was an undergrad and Iwas studying in Moscow and I was
there as part of aninternational business institute
and I knew I had an interest inglobal issues, I knew I loved
traveling and experiencing othercultures and I knew that I also
(02:42):
loved global missions.
And how can we help?
How can I make a difference?
Growing up, my parents wouldnot take us on vacations.
We didn't know any better.
They would take us on servicetrips around the world, and that
was what we did as a familyExactly, and at the time you
know, maybe you hear about someof the places your friends are
going and you're like, wow,that's very different from where
(03:02):
we just got back from.
But in retrospect it was anenormous gift.
It was an incredible gift, sothankful for that.
Those experiences that didshape me.
So I'm studying in Moscow andhad lunch with this individual
and he said have you ever heardof Muhammad Yunus and the
Grameen Bank?
And I didn't.
(03:24):
And then he went on to describehow he was doing work in the
former Soviet Union of trainingand unlocking the capacity that
individuals have to create andstart small businesses, and the
importance of capital and somecreative vehicles that they had
to invest in entrepreneurs thatwould never be able to go into a
(03:45):
traditional banker or get atraditional investment.
And it was fascinating.
It was fascinating and you lookback at your life and that was
one of those moments thatchanged the direction.
So that is what I've done withmy career.
I got involved after undergradand then ended up working in
Cambodia doing internal controlsand working within this broader
(04:07):
field of microfinance, and thenmoved to Rwanda and led a
microfinance institution thereand then spent time in Zimbabwe,
trying to figure out in ahyperinflationary environment
what really can you do to makean impact on poverty?
And then graduate school andthen, 21 years ago, moved to
Lancaster, pennsylvania, andthis is where we've been.
(04:27):
This is home, and my wife,laurel, and our four kids yeah,
based here, but still doing work.
We now work with HopeInternational and 30 nations
around the world.
That's the story, but reallythe whole piece is that people
around the world that are livingin poverty have gifts and
abilities, and aid is alwaysbest when it is temporary.
(04:48):
Aid should not and never is thelong-term solution.
And so how do we invest?
How do we help individualsprovide for their own families?
Cycle of generational poverty?
By unlocking gifts andabilities and having jobs and
(05:09):
employment as a key part of thesolution.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, rather than them depending on handouts,
they're creating their owneconomy and they're able to have
those jobs, be able to providefor the families.
That is brilliant.
I love that concept and that isamazing.
What was the year that you werein the former Soviet Union?
That?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
would have been 1995.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
1995.
Wow, amazing.
And so when did you become theCEO of Hope International?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
In 2004.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, amazing.
And so you wrote a book that isso powerful, and I've just been
reading through it, and so Iwould love to know about what
was the inspiration behind youwriting how Leaders Lose their
Way?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It is no secret that when we look at the headlines,
it is a regular occurrence thatwe're going to hear a new story.
A regular occurrence that we'regoing to hear a new story.
What's the story?
This week, a leader of someorganization that is going to do
something that is going tocause all of us to say why did
(06:15):
you do that?
What happened?
What is going on there?
And there was this one studythat I read and it said only one
out of three leaders finishwell.
I was like one out of three.
What in the world?
That's terrible.
That's a shocking statistic,right, and the way that it
(06:38):
defined not finishing well wasabusing power or position for
their own gain.
Like, somehow they step outtrying to make this impact on
the world.
Somehow they step out with, youknow, passion and excitement,
and then slowly, over time, thatarc has been written, it starts
to bend inwards and they losetheir way.
And instead of hearing thatstatistic or whatever the latest
(07:00):
news issue is and saying Ican't believe that they did that
, I've asked a differentquestion of how do I make sure
that's not my story?
I don't want to make sure thatI have this long-term
faithfulness in the samedirection, because I care about
this work, I care about the team, I and so it really became a
(07:21):
research project of what causespeople to lose their way, what
causes leaders to lose their way, and how do we make sure that
one out of three is changed.
Let's go three out of three forleaders being known for that
long-term faithfulness andimpact in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, and in your book you mentioned that drift
happens slowly and subtly andthat it's tiny drifts that alter
our course and that finishingwell essentially is not an
accident.
We don't just accidentallyfinish well, but drift is the
default.
And I've heard this example inthe marriage seminar once, that
if you're not intentionallyrowing towards each other, it's
(08:00):
like the metaphor of being inthe lake in two separate
rowboats, and if you're notintentionally making effort to
come towards each other, thelake is going to drift you apart
.
And that's the same metaphorhere, which the drift is a
default.
So how do we finish well?
And that statistic that youmentioned of 30% of people who
(08:21):
set out with good intentionswell meaning people, of people
who set out with good intentions, well-meaning people eventually
subtly drift from their mission, from their purpose, and I know
that you and I have bothwritten eulogies and this is
something that you've done.
After your grandfather's funeral, you came back and you were
thinking, and I know that for me, funerals is something that
(08:44):
isn't necessarily a negativething.
It's a way that I reflect on mylife and I think it's a
powerful place to be sometimes,because it allows us to
understand how our life is soshort and then the impact that
we make.
We need to reflect on that, andwriting a eulogy is a beautiful
way to say okay, how do I wantto live my life intentionally,
(09:05):
and how do I want to live mylife intentionally and how do I
want to finish Like, what is theend going to look like?
What are people going to say?
What is the impact that I made?
What really, really mattered?
And so I'm curious to know fromyou why is it that leaders
start out well but don't alwaysfinish well?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I think part of it is exactly what you were just
saying.
It's like that vision.
What is it?
What does finishing wellactually mean?
And David Brooks has writtenabout the difference between
eulogy virtues and resumevirtues.
Those are not the same things,and we spend a lot of our time
focusing on the things that goon the resume, yeah.
(09:45):
Yet in a eulogy you hear a verydifferent set of descriptions
of a life that is well lived,and my guess is there's a
difference between what youwrote in that, when you're
thinking about what do you hopeis true, what do you hope those
people closest to you say aboutyou in that moment.
And for me, that was just apowerful experience of
(10:06):
clarifying what does it looklike?
I wrote it on a Saturdaymorning.
I was at our kitchen table andI was getting emotional and
thinking about, like what reallydo I want to be true?
And my wife came down and I'vegot like tears in my eyes.
What are you doing?
(10:27):
I said I'm writing my eulogy inany other description at that
point.
So if you do this, like, makesure people know why you're
doing this, it's an importantpiece.
But did that and I put it on mycalendar and I read it every
year on my birthday, which isjust a reminder of it, just
clarifies what really mattersand that helps clarify.
(10:52):
And then the next question isand what are we doing about it?
And I think you asked how doleaders lose their way?
And I think the first piece isnot knowing what it looks like,
what is the destination thatthey want to look at and to
really disaggregate resumevirtues from eulogy virtues.
But then the second piece isI'm amazed how easy it is to
know and how hard it is to do.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
There's a lot of the things that we would put down.
We know that they are important, but then we look at the last
week and how many of our actionswere in alignment with that,
and I think that really was.
If the book is helpful toanyone, my guess is it's not
going to be clarifying.
We kind of can do that realquickly, but it's how do we put
(11:36):
these ideas into practice?
Because when it comes to drift,it happens slowly and it
happens through.
Just I'm not thinking about it,I just took the next step
without realizing where thatpath eventually goes, and so
it's like what do we dopractically?
Let's get real practical.
What do we do to stay onmission?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, that's so beautiful.
I read my eulogy this morning.
Actually, I was reminded of andthere's people that I know that
read their eulogy every morning.
Like I interviewed BrittanyTurner.
She is an incredibleentrepreneur who's also making a
great impact on the world thearea of recovery.
They help with humantrafficking and rescue.
She's got her own island in theBritish islands and you know so
(12:19):
.
She wrote her eulogy.
Actually, she's the one thatprompted me to write and do this
exercise, and I do that in myretreats when I host women and
we write our eulogy out becauseit is so important.
I'm like you really read youreulogy every single day and
she's like, yeah, she's like,yeah, there might be days that I
miss, but it really helps me toknow what is my mission, why am
I here on this earth, what isthe impact that I'm making?
(12:40):
Because it is easy to drift.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I think the biggest reason is you look at the impact
on the people that you careabout.
When a leader drifts, it's notjust the impact on them, it's
the impact is expanding incircles around there.
So just, you know real,practically you look at this
work that we are doing.
(13:10):
I love the mission of HopeInternational, so we see the
impact.
And if the headlines tomorrowwere of some significant fraud
that I had, you know the impactwould be so severe.
Trust would be lost, ourability to do this work and
serve families.
(13:30):
There would be real harm topeople, let alone the impact on
my kids and on my spouse andbroader family.
Like, I don't think we realizethe impact until we are in that
spot.
And you know, probably the mostheartbreaking thing of all the
research that we did, mostheartbreaking piece for me was
(13:50):
every single person that sharedso generously.
They shared the story with suchkindness because they were like,
if this can help someone else,please, please, please, please
don't follow this path.
And every single one said allof a sudden I realized dot, dot,
(14:11):
dot.
But that moment of realizationthat is after so many small
compromises for not months butyears, and so we're just trying
to go upstream a little bit ofthis, of saying what are those
small habits, those smallthoughts, those small behaviors
that don't make a big differencetoday or tomorrow, but if you
(14:31):
don't do them day after dayafter day, that is going to lead
your head and your heart in adifferent direction.
And then, all of a sudden,you're going to realize you're
in a place that you don't wantto go.
So the real good places takework, the real valuable
relationships take investment.
And so we're just trying to sayI love that analogy of the
(14:52):
boats rowing towards each otherlike let's set our destination,
let's grab that oar and let's go, let's row.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, and from your experience and research, what
are the early signs that youfind that a leader may be
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Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, maybe this is an odd thing to say, but I just
start with the assumption thatevery single one of us is
veering off course in some smallway, and so the number one
indicator is are we making microrecalibrations on the daily
basis?
Are we taking a differentcourse?
Another thing is do we havepeople in our life who are going
(16:11):
to speak the truth in love?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, that's a big one too.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Oh, so much of this was the danger of isolation, the
danger of having no one intheir life who really knew them.
And we were talking to this oneindividual that had walked
alongside a leader who had losttheir way and he said I just
didn't know.
I thought I knew the person,but there was just so much of
(16:36):
his life that was just kind ofkept aside.
And that should be anotherdanger sign blinking.
If there's a lot of parts ofour life that are just not known
, we just stuff them down.
We know what happens withdynamite the more you just pack
that down, the bigger the impactover time.
So that's another huge one.
(16:57):
How much of your life is knownby others?
How much of your life are youdoing with others?
And just one real concrete,practical piece I start every
Friday morning with a friend andwe've committed to doing this
for the duration.
We're going the distance witheach other and to try and say
(17:17):
they're just, are going to be inthis relationship, there's just
not going to be secrets andwe're going to do this life,
yeah, in friendship together.
That's been enormously helpful.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Oh, that's so beautiful because you have the
accountability piece, you havethe vulnerability piece and no
secrets.
So it's like, hey, we're goingto openly share what the
struggles are.
What would you say to someonewho perhaps is in a leadership
role and they don't havesomebody that you have on a
Friday that they get togetherwith, and maybe they don't even
(17:48):
know where to start?
There's, I would love for thisto be my reality.
But, Peter, where do I start?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
I would love for this to be my reality.
But, peter, where do I start?
Yeah, I mean, I would probablystart by saying what a wonderful
recognition, courage to you.
That is brave for you to saythat and to say I just don't
have that relationship or thoserelationships right now.
(18:15):
And I think about when I was inRwanda.
I was in a rural part of Rwandawith a friend.
His name was Pierre and he saidin rural parts everyone knows
they need four friends.
And I was like that's veryspecific, why four?
And he said well, that's howmany people carry a stretcher.
And you know you need people,that four are going to be there.
(18:36):
If you need to get somewhere,they're going to be the ones
that are going to be carried inthere.
And I thought that's abeautiful analogy.
We all need that core four.
So who are they?
And then the practical pieces ofwhere to start.
Oftentimes it takes time andintentionality.
That is the number one word ofall of our research.
It's like it takesintentionality.
(18:59):
You have to believe that it'simportant and then you have to
align your schedule and yourlife to make time and space so
that individual I would say whoare the people that you know?
Have you been part of a smallgroup?
Have you connected with others?
Tell me about your collegefriendships and which one of
those are most important.
(19:20):
And I think that's a really,really important starting point.
If you don't have those, ifit's 3 am and you wouldn't know
who to call, that's a reallyimportant insight.
And then the question is sowhat do we do to kind of look at
who are those people?
And for me, every January I dosomething Constellation
(19:43):
Mentoring.
It's basically like looking atthe relationships in my life and
looking at those individualsthat I want to make sure I'm
creating time and space andgrowing closer to and doing life
with on an annual basis.
So again, every January, I lookat the relationships in my life
and then make sure that that isreflected on my calendar.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, and the people that you do have in your life,
that you're close with, I'm surethat you give them permission
to speak honestly into your life, right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, I was on a walk with one of them not that long
ago and I was processing anissue and in my work I'm known
as Peter, but anyone who knew methrough college knew me as Pete
, so that's kind of how I know,kind of where the friendship is
on that.
So he looked at me, we werewalking together and he said hey
(20:34):
, pete, you're being an idiot.
And I thought, yeah, I mean,you're probably right, but you
could have said it a littlenicer on that.
But what a gift like to havefriends in our life that
actually do give us that gift.
Wounds from a friend can betrusted, as has been written
many years ago.
And so having those friends butthen also inviting them in to
(21:00):
speak truth in moments that,yeah, you know you need it.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, like, if we don'tchallenge the people within our
inner circle, like if we're notcalling out the best in them yes
, calling out the gifts and thegood things, we see them, but
also course correction, like,hey, like, have you thought
about what the implication ofthis action or whatever that is?
Obviously in a really organicconversation, that is such a
gift to have honest people inyour life that you can really
(21:26):
openly share with.
But, like you said, it doesn'talso happen by accident.
It's not by accident thatyou're getting together with
your friend on a Friday everyweek to check in.
That is, you both made acommitment to say, hey, this is
a value to us and we know thismatters so much because
statistics say one out of threefinish well.
So it's like hey, I don't wantto be part of the negative end
(21:48):
of that statistics.
I want to be someone whofinishes well.
So let's commit to living alife of accountability, of
vulnerability, that allows us tofinish our course in the way
that we intended to finish.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And how do you do that in your life?
Busy schedule, busy leader howdo you do that in your life?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Are you asking me?
Am I being interviewed now?
Are you asking?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
just anyone listening .
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Oh, do me.
No, I'm asking you.
Yeah, well, I do.
I've actually have.
I have a solid base of peoplewho really can be super honest,
people that know all the ins andouts of my life and who will
call me higher.
Yeah, I don't have necessarilya weekly schedule like you do,
(22:33):
which probably is great andamazing.
I have some long distancefriends that we've been friends
with for basically a lifetimeand they know everything, and I
also know everything.
We hold each other accountable,you know, especially when we say
, hey, this is what I know Ineed to be working on, I want
you to hold me accountable inthis.
You know whether it's somethingto do with family or calling or
purpose.
(22:53):
And then they check in and say,hey, you asked me to hold you
accountable in this, so how areyou doing in this area?
And it's like, oh, you're right, yes, thank you.
Like recalibration, right,Keeping back on track.
Yes, I did ask you to hold meaccountable on this and thank
(23:14):
you for checking in.
Here's how I'm doing in thatarea.
And so I think, yeah, that issomething that I had to be
strategic in as well and invitethose relationships in and say,
hey, I want you to know, like,if you see me getting off course
, tell me, like you have mypermission to call me out, Like
I want you to be honest, I wantyou to tell me if you see
something off, if you see mebeing prideful in any way, if
you see me, you know, notwalking in humility and not
(23:37):
serving in a way that you knowthat I want to be serving.
I need to know that, Like Idon't want anyone to just be
like man she's doing this andthis and that, and this is what
I'm seeing.
I'm seeing those early signs ofsomeone steering off course,
but you know, I don't have thepermission maybe or the courage
to share that.
But if you say, hey, you canopenly tell me that, like I want
(23:59):
you to speak into my life, Ifyou see that that opens the door
to that conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
That's so good.
That's so good, yeah, and Ithink that's an honest exercise
to go through of when was thelast time someone gave you a
difficult truth.
And if it's been a long time,that means one of two things
you've been perfect or maybepeople haven't helped, you see
it, and it typically is thelatter, not the former, of that.
(24:28):
So right?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
yeah, I think exactly .
I think you know the truth isthat none of us are perfect,
right, like we all are beings,and I think this is something
that I've learned over thecourse of the journey and being
part of several organization andchurches and seeing leadership
across the board was onheadlines, like you mentioned in
your book, or just people thatyou know in your world that have
(24:49):
fallen off course is thatpeople are human and these
people, humans, runorganizations, and whether that
is a business, whether it's achurch, whether it's a
non-profit, and so I thinksometimes we, as observers, when
we see people fail, we can makethe assumptions of you know
(25:12):
well, god must be wrong or youknow maybe something.
So we judge the wholeorganization or a whole entity
versus to identifying that we'reall human, we're all capable of
making mistakes and it's notnecessarily a reflection of a
certain industry or a certainorganization, but it's a
(25:32):
leadership failure, which is whyI love that you, in this book,
you focused on the person, notthe organization, saying okay,
how do we examine ourselves, howdo we take the mirror and look
at ourselves and say how am Idoing in this way?
How am I going to live my lifeintentionally so I don't wear a
course, and yeah, I mean, I'veseen this happen way too many
(25:53):
times and it's beendisheartening.
And what may look like aperfect family or a leader from
the outside, we don't see ituntil that suddenly happens
right, suddenly boom.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, it was one of the early research studies that
really shaped a lot of this workthat we do.
But one of the characteristicsthat was seen in almost every
case is that people thought,well, that will never happen to
me.
They thought that you know,because of their story, because
of who they were, that wouldhappen to others, but it would
never happen to me.
They thought that because oftheir story, because of who they
were, that would happen toothers, but it would never
(26:29):
happen to me.
And the converse is true.
Those people that did finishwell knew that it wasn't a
guarantee.
They knew that it required workand commitments, and that's a
huge shift on that.
So I think the question for usis do we believe that we could
lose our way?
And if we do, then that is astrong motivator to say let's do
(26:51):
the work so that that is notour story, and I think that
starting point is really, reallyimportant, never happened to me
, I would never do this.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, especially when you see someone fall right,
you can make the judgment andsay, oh, I would never do that,
I would never, you know.
Blah, blah, blah, whatever thatis.
But when you have theperspective that you can also be
that human who falls short andmakes the mistake or drifts off
course, so much so thateventually you're like whoa, how
did I get here?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, so in this book, I want to know, like, what do
you hope that readers will takeaway from reading this book,
from studying it, holding themirror on their leadership,
their walk?
What do you hope people willget out of it?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I think there's some books maybe that are written
from a philosopher perspectiveor studying or research on that.
I'm a practitioner and so Ihope that people do something
with this.
What are the actions, what arethe attitudes, what are the
behaviors that are going to helpon that?
(27:59):
So I would love nothing morethan what I've seen in my own
life is thinking through some ofthese concepts and doing it
with a small group of friends.
It will have a profound impacton your life, and so at the end
of every chapter there'sexercises.
Again, that's kind of the waythat I'm wired.
What do we do?
Okay, I see that that could bean issue.
I see that, whatever you know,pick the topic, and there's lots
(28:24):
of different ways to lose ourway.
Pick one of them, and then whatdo we actually do as a result?
To take that minor coursecorrection and again have that
long-term alignment with what itis that we say we value, and
then is that reflected in theway that we live.
So that's my hope, that's ourhope, that's the reason we spend
(28:46):
some time, and let's changethose statistics.
One out of three is not okaywith me.
Let's make sure we'reincreasing that.
Having our friends, those thatwe care about those that we are
doing life with.
Let's go three for three.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
When I read that I was like whoa, 30% I mean 50-50
sounds bad.
You know, it's like you got a50% chance of finishing well or
not finishing well.
That sounds bad in itself, but30%, that's a staggering
statistic.
I mean, yeah, so that is.
I definitely was super shockedby reading that you also share
(29:26):
in your book about spiritualdisciplines.
So, out of all the disciplines,which one, would you say, is
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Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, we tried to figure out like order of
causality, how do we go upstream, what are those most important?
And I don't know that.
We found that it was kind oflike the aggregate of all of
these pieces that are, all thesesubtle currents in our life
that pull us away.
But one that I found veryinteresting and again it's so
(30:38):
simple.
Much of what we find is it'snot knowing something new, it's
actually having it reflected inhow we live.
But this one was just on pacethat the faster we live, the
more likely we are to lose ourway.
Tell a story of an individualthat actually got what they
(31:02):
wanted, got this incredibleopportunity to share their story
on every single news outlet andthis opportunity to see all of
this impact.
And they were running so fast.
And you can do that for a shortterm.
You cannot do that for the longterm and I think so.
What is one of the practices?
(31:24):
I think this idea it's anancient idea, but the idea of
Sabbath that one out of sevendays you are going to unplug,
and I think that's so importantbecause unless you have a little
bit of time and space to getyour internal RPMs down, you
won't be able to look and seewhere you're drifting.
If you're always running to thenext thing, you're not going to
(31:45):
see the impact on those peoplethat are closest to you.
You're not going to have timeto say how am I doing as a dad
in this season, how am I doingcaring for you?
How can we make sure ourrelationship is growing stronger
?
You don't have thoseconversations when you're
running from one thing to thenext, and so for many
individuals, it requires alittle bit more, and again, this
(32:09):
is the intentionality.
What does it look like for usto have time, have space to slow
down, to look around, toconsider where we are and the
impact that we're having onothers?
That habit, that practice, Ithink, would help us identify
areas that we need to change inour life, that we're never going
to see if we keep going fromone thing to the next.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, that's so good.
And from your findings of yourresearch and prepping for this
book, what were some otherthings that you found
interesting or maybe evensurprising?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Oh, I mean, surprising was we started doing
this research and you know, it'salmost like when you're doing
car shopping then you startseeing cars and the thing that I
would say was most surprisingis, as we started doing this
research and you start thenreading the news differently,
you start looking at differentpieces and it's like this is a
(33:07):
crisis, Like it is a straight upcrisis of how prevalent it is
that people that are inleadership positions end up
going in a different direction.
So I think that was theshocking thing that initially I
read that study about the one inthree and I was like no way,
(33:29):
come on, no way.
And then you start studyingthis and you start looking
around and you're like that,actually I can see that, I can
see that.
And heartbreaking too.
Some of these stories that wehad were individuals that are in
the twilight years of theircareer, individuals in their 70s
, and you do that Like oh, why,why, why, why?
(33:55):
So it's like, yeah, payattention, pay attention.
So I think that is one piece.
And then again, the feedbackpiece was so instructive.
Most of the individuals thatlost their way, they just didn't
have anyone to call them out.
And that's the challenge withsuccess in an organization,
(34:17):
Success leads to more isolation.
It leads to more opportunitiesto go and leads to more of an
identity that is kind of mixedup in who I am being synonymous
with what I do, and those twothings are not true.
One other kind of practicewriting my eulogy, but I also
(34:39):
wrote my resignation letter andI hope that that letter is not
going to be mailed for manyyears.
But there was something powerfulabout writing words of
appreciation for this season,but also knowing that I am
interim in my role, and I thinkthat's another kind of check on
(35:00):
our heart is what's our identity?
How closely intertwined is thatwith what we do?
And maybe relatedly, and howare we actively helping others
grow into more significantleadership roles in the
organization?
How much do we hold on to thepieces of our job versus?
(35:21):
How are we empowering andinviting others to step into
that as well?
So I could go on, but again,it's like not one thing.
It's like all of these relatedissues that, when taken in
aggregate, yeah, either lead usto the place we want to go or
slowly lead us off track.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, it's kind of like a garden, right?
The same kind of analogy whereyou need the sun, you need the
water, you also need to pruneand weed and you know it's a
constant thing.
Like I have a garden right nowand we had a lot of rain
recently and that brought up alot of weeds, and so you have to
keep up with the weeds.
Sometimes there are seasonsthat bring weeds a lot faster
than you can keep up, so youhave to make intentional effort
(36:02):
to get rid of those weeds andcontinue to have a thriving and
healthy garden.
And it does take the sun, itdoes take the water, it does
take the pruning and the weedingand then harvesting right, and
everything is in seasons too.
So I think, recognizing theseasons, there are seasons of
planting, of harvesting, ofpruning and all of that.
So and I love that you said thatwhen success comes with more
(36:26):
isolation, because you have moreopportunity and there is more
of identifying your identitywith what you do versus to who
you are and the roots of who youare, whose you are, and that
identity and I think a lot oftimes the more successful leader
is that, I found, is that thereason they feel more isolated
(36:47):
to.
Part of it is because noteveryone can understand what
they're going through.
And so, like we have certainfriends that are just in like
the top 1%, the top 10% ofwealth or certain success
metrics, and for them it's areally lonely road because not
everyone can understand wherethey're coming from and can
(37:09):
understand their heart.
So even for them to havesomeone who is a peer of that
same level of success or thesame level of whatever metric,
they do feel isolated.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true.
Yeah, and again, that's one ofthe blinking red lights If you
feel like I have no one that Ican truly know and be known by,
if there's no one that reallycould understand I'm struggling
in this issue right now.
We are not meant to do lifealone.
(37:44):
We need others to do life withand alongside.
Yeah, so that doesn't matterwhat the sector is, but I do
think that the more successsomeone experiences, you have to
work even harder to create timeand space for that, even though
that is a universal need thatwe all have.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah Well, peter, before we wrap up this interview
, I want you to tell us wherecan people find you, and your
book is obviously found anywhere.
Books are sold, correct.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That is correct, anywhere books are sold, yeah,
for sure, yeah.
And then if anyone wants toconnect, or if we could try and
be helpful and we do have abunch of resources as well that
even if people don't buy thebook, these tools, I really we
wanted to make it practical andactionable and so, like the
constellation, mentoring, ofthinking maybe differently about
the people in your life, if yougo to howleaderslosetheirwaycom
(38:35):
, you can get all theinformation there, and then
again, anywhere books are sold.
And then personally, I write ablog at peterkgreercom and those
are the places that connect.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And on all the socials, Awesome, and so I end
the podcast by asking threequestions.
One of them is what is thebravest thing that Peter has
ever done?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, I think maybe the one that maybe stands out is
while I was in Rwanda, we lovedgoing and seeing the silverback
gorillas and living there.
We got to see them thesilverback gorillas and living
there we got to see themmultiple times and it's not like
seeing them in a zoo.
They are the king of the jungle.
What do you mean living there?
So I lived in Rwanda earlier inmy career.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, but not living with the like where the gorillas
are.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Oh yeah, sorry, same part of the country.
Yeah, but we would go regularlyon that because you know,
whenever friends are there, atthat time it was just an amazing
experience.
And so I turned my back on thesilverback and the silverback
charged and grabbed me andstarted dragging me away into
the Virunga National Forest.
(39:42):
He let me go, stood over andbeat his chest and it was a
moment.
But maybe the bravest thing ismy wife at that moment thought
that was the right time for usto leave, but I was like, no, we
got still some time and so wegot to have that experience and
then still hung out beingsurrounded by 39 gorillas, and
(40:05):
it's an awesome experience.
So I think about time withgorillas and being dragged away,
but then still wanting to stay,maybe as something on the
outdoor adventure, I would sayoh, wow, yeah, that is quite a
remarkable experience.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I mean that one will stick, that's for sure.
What are three books that werepivotal in your life?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh, I mean in terms of the professional standpoint
Banker to the Poor by MuhammadYunus really was this idea of
understanding how finance can beused to break the cycle of
poverty.
That was a great one.
In some of the other reading Ihave loved reading Philip Yancey
and his recent books, hisautobiography I was just so
(40:50):
touched by that and his story.
But I'd recommend anything byPhilip Yancey.
There's just a realness and arawness you know he talks about
life and faith really impactedby him.
And then maybe the third one isI was really inspired by the
Bonhoeffer book by Eric Metaxasand just looking at a courageous
(41:14):
leader who was living in I meanjust talk about challenges of
that time and that season andyeah, that was a profound book
of what it looks like to and,yeah, that was a profound book
of what it looks like to have afaithful presence in the midst
of incredibly challenging times.
So yeah, those are the topthree.
Maybe that come to mind.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Awesome, yeah, those are really good.
And what is the best piece ofadvice that someone gave you?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I think oftentimes we kind of relate to life and what
comes to us, and maybe it'sjust because we've been talking
about it.
But a friend, a mentor, I wascomplaining about something in
my life and feeling like I waspulled, and he said you realize,
you have more control than yourealize about the way that you
(42:04):
structure your day.
Realize about the way that youstructure your day.
And it just was permission tonot just like at me to be
responsive, but it waspermission to say let's flip
this around, let's let'sunderstand, and if I say I want
to be a dedicated dad, let'smake sure that I'm not
(42:24):
scheduling meetings after 5 pmso I can go cheer my daughter on
in her soccer game thisafternoon, let's make sure that
I'm not traveling so much thatI'm not present at home.
And it just was this invitationto, yeah, take more ownership
(42:48):
of the life and the things thatI can control.
There's so much of life that wecan't control.
But to actually control thethings that we can and that
level of intentionality againit's been a theme that we've
been talking about but to makesure that our calendars reflect
our priorities and put that inearly, that's been really,
really helpful.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Amazing.
Well, it's been such an honortalking to you, Peter.
Thank you so much for your time.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked you or anything
else you'd love to add to thisinterview?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
No, just for those people that are listening and
maybe do recognize that they'vemaybe lost their way.
I mean, this podcast talks alot about courage and bravery
and I would say there is nothingmore courageous or brave than
recognizing.
Maybe, if there is and my guessis you're going to be
(43:34):
surrounded by friends that aregoing to lost your way and then
doing the work to get back ontrack.
My utmost respect for thosepeople that maybe have
(43:55):
recognized there's drift in aparticular area and then do the
work to get back and cheeringfor you in that journey.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Yes, do the work that is thehard part right, and thank you,
thank you for listening.
Do the work, that is the hardpart right, and thank you.
Thank you for listening to theOnce we Dare podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
(44:22):
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
Welcome to the Once a Year podcast.
I'm your host, vekka, and thisis a fascinating interview with
Peter Greer.
I could have talked to him forhours.
In this episode we talk abouthis latest book called how
Leaders Lose their Way and howto make sure it doesn't happen
to you, and so I've learned somuch from this conversation,
from his book, and did you knowthat only one in three leaders
(00:25):
succeed and not have the failureof moral failure or whatever it
is that causes them to stumbleand fall off track of what they
initially set out to do?
And so I found that reallyfascinating, and we dug deep
into cultivating integrity,accountability, how to avoid
those traps and how to setyourself up for success so that
(00:46):
it doesn't happen to you, and soI know you're going to be
really encouraged by thisepisode.
We talk about writing eulogies.
There is so much here that youguys will walk away with with
practical steps and tips on howto finish well, so tune in to
this incredible episode.
Hey friends, welcome to theOnes who Dared podcast, where
(01:08):
stories of courage are elevated.
I'm your host, becca, and everyother week you'll hear
interviews from inspiring people.
My hope is that you will leaveencouraged.
I'm so glad you're here.
Peter Greer, welcome to theOnce who Dared podcast.
(01:32):
I am so honored to be sittingacross from you here via Zoom
and learning more about yourstory and the impact that you
have on the world.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, so you're president and CEO of Hope
International, which it focuseson.
It's a nonprofit thatalleviates poverty through
entrepreneurship andmicroeconomics.
I'd love to hear more aboutthat as well, because that's
such a fascinating topic andsomething we hear about mission
trips and different things thatpeople do to impact areas of
(02:05):
poverty, but microeconomics is avery unique approach to that as
well, and so, before we getinto your story, your book, I
would love for you to set up and, let us know, give us a little
backstory of who you are andwhat led you up to this point.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, well, the two areas connect of the story and
this broader field ofmicroenterprise development.
When I was an undergrad and Iwas studying in Moscow and I was
there as part of aninternational business institute
and I knew I had an interest inglobal issues, I knew I loved
traveling and experiencing othercultures and I knew that I also
(02:42):
loved global missions.
And how can we help?
How can I make a difference?
Growing up, my parents wouldnot take us on vacations.
We didn't know any better.
They would take us on servicetrips around the world, and that
was what we did as a familyExactly, and at the time you
know, maybe you hear about someof the places your friends are
going and you're like, wow,that's very different from where
(03:02):
we just got back from.
But in retrospect it was anenormous gift.
It was an incredible gift, sothankful for that.
Those experiences that didshape me.
So I'm studying in Moscow andhad lunch with this individual
and he said have you ever heardof Muhammad Yunus and the
Grameen Bank?
And I didn't.
(03:24):
And then he went on to describehow he was doing work in the
former Soviet Union of trainingand unlocking the capacity that
individuals have to create andstart small businesses, and the
importance of capital and somecreative vehicles that they had
to invest in entrepreneurs thatwould never be able to go into a
(03:45):
traditional banker or get atraditional investment.
And it was fascinating.
It was fascinating and you lookback at your life and that was
one of those moments thatchanged the direction.
So that is what I've done withmy career.
I got involved after undergradand then ended up working in
Cambodia doing internal controlsand working within this broader
(04:07):
field of microfinance, and thenmoved to Rwanda and led a
microfinance institution thereand then spent time in Zimbabwe,
trying to figure out in ahyperinflationary environment
what really can you do to makean impact on poverty?
And then graduate school andthen, 21 years ago, moved to
Lancaster, pennsylvania, andthis is where we've been.
(04:27):
This is home, and my wife,laurel, and our four kids yeah,
based here, but still doing work.
We now work with HopeInternational and 30 nations
around the world.
That's the story, but reallythe whole piece is that people
around the world that are livingin poverty have gifts and
abilities, and aid is alwaysbest when it is temporary.
(04:48):
Aid should not and never is thelong-term solution.
And so how do we invest?
How do we help individualsprovide for their own families?
Cycle of generational poverty?
By unlocking gifts andabilities and having jobs and
(05:09):
employment as a key part of thesolution.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, rather than them depending on handouts,
they're creating their owneconomy and they're able to have
those jobs, be able to providefor the families.
That is brilliant.
I love that concept and that isamazing.
What was the year that you werein the former Soviet Union?
That?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
would have been 1995.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
1995.
Wow, amazing.
And so when did you become theCEO of Hope International?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
In 2004.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, amazing.
And so you wrote a book that isso powerful, and I've just been
reading through it, and so Iwould love to know about what
was the inspiration behind youwriting how Leaders Lose their
Way?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It is no secret that when we look at the headlines,
it is a regular occurrence thatwe're going to hear a new story.
A regular occurrence that we'regoing to hear a new story.
What's the story?
This week, a leader of someorganization that is going to do
something that is going tocause all of us to say why did
(06:15):
you do that?
What happened?
What is going on there?
And there was this one studythat I read and it said only one
out of three leaders finishwell.
I was like one out of three.
What in the world?
That's terrible.
That's a shocking statistic,right, and the way that it
(06:38):
defined not finishing well wasabusing power or position for
their own gain.
Like, somehow they step outtrying to make this impact on
the world.
Somehow they step out with, youknow, passion and excitement,
and then slowly, over time, thatarc has been written, it starts
to bend inwards and they losetheir way.
And instead of hearing thatstatistic or whatever the latest
(07:00):
news issue is and saying Ican't believe that they did that
, I've asked a differentquestion of how do I make sure
that's not my story?
I don't want to make sure thatI have this long-term
faithfulness in the samedirection, because I care about
this work, I care about the team, I and so it really became a
(07:21):
research project of what causespeople to lose their way, what
causes leaders to lose their way, and how do we make sure that
one out of three is changed.
Let's go three out of three forleaders being known for that
long-term faithfulness andimpact in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, and in your book you mentioned that drift
happens slowly and subtly andthat it's tiny drifts that alter
our course and that finishingwell essentially is not an
accident.
We don't just accidentallyfinish well, but drift is the
default.
And I've heard this example inthe marriage seminar once, that
if you're not intentionallyrowing towards each other, it's
(08:00):
like the metaphor of being inthe lake in two separate
rowboats, and if you're notintentionally making effort to
come towards each other, thelake is going to drift you apart
.
And that's the same metaphorhere, which the drift is a
default.
So how do we finish well?
And that statistic that youmentioned of 30% of people who
(08:21):
set out with good intentionswell meaning people, of people
who set out with good intentions, well-meaning people eventually
subtly drift from their mission, from their purpose, and I know
that you and I have bothwritten eulogies and this is
something that you've done.
After your grandfather's funeral, you came back and you were
thinking, and I know that for me, funerals is something that
(08:44):
isn't necessarily a negativething.
It's a way that I reflect on mylife and I think it's a
powerful place to be sometimes,because it allows us to
understand how our life is soshort and then the impact that
we make.
We need to reflect on that, andwriting a eulogy is a beautiful
way to say okay, how do I wantto live my life intentionally,
(09:05):
and how do I want to live mylife intentionally and how do I
want to finish Like, what is theend going to look like?
What are people going to say?
What is the impact that I made?
What really, really mattered?
And so I'm curious to know fromyou why is it that leaders
start out well but don't alwaysfinish well?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I think part of it is exactly what you were just
saying.
It's like that vision.
What is it?
What does finishing wellactually mean?
And David Brooks has writtenabout the difference between
eulogy virtues and resumevirtues.
Those are not the same things,and we spend a lot of our time
focusing on the things that goon the resume, yeah.
(09:45):
Yet in a eulogy you hear a verydifferent set of descriptions
of a life that is well lived,and my guess is there's a
difference between what youwrote in that, when you're
thinking about what do you hopeis true, what do you hope those
people closest to you say aboutyou in that moment.
And for me, that was just apowerful experience of
(10:06):
clarifying what does it looklike?
I wrote it on a Saturdaymorning.
I was at our kitchen table andI was getting emotional and
thinking about, like what reallydo I want to be true?
And my wife came down and I'vegot like tears in my eyes.
What are you doing?
(10:27):
I said I'm writing my eulogy inany other description at that
point.
So if you do this, like, makesure people know why you're
doing this, it's an importantpiece.
But did that and I put it on mycalendar and I read it every
year on my birthday, which isjust a reminder of it, just
clarifies what really mattersand that helps clarify.
(10:52):
And then the next question isand what are we doing about it?
And I think you asked how doleaders lose their way?
And I think the first piece isnot knowing what it looks like,
what is the destination thatthey want to look at and to
really disaggregate resumevirtues from eulogy virtues.
But then the second piece isI'm amazed how easy it is to
know and how hard it is to do.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
There's a lot of the things that we would put down.
We know that they are important, but then we look at the last
week and how many of our actionswere in alignment with that,
and I think that really was.
If the book is helpful toanyone, my guess is it's not
going to be clarifying.
We kind of can do that realquickly, but it's how do we put
(11:36):
these ideas into practice?
Because when it comes to drift,it happens slowly and it
happens through.
Just I'm not thinking about it,I just took the next step
without realizing where thatpath eventually goes, and so
it's like what do we dopractically?
Let's get real practical.
What do we do to stay onmission?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, that's so beautiful.
I read my eulogy this morning.
Actually, I was reminded of andthere's people that I know that
read their eulogy every morning.
Like I interviewed BrittanyTurner.
She is an incredibleentrepreneur who's also making a
great impact on the world thearea of recovery.
They help with humantrafficking and rescue.
She's got her own island in theBritish islands and you know so
(12:19):
.
She wrote her eulogy.
Actually, she's the one thatprompted me to write and do this
exercise, and I do that in myretreats when I host women and
we write our eulogy out becauseit is so important.
I'm like you really read youreulogy every single day and
she's like, yeah, she's like,yeah, there might be days that I
miss, but it really helps me toknow what is my mission, why am
I here on this earth, what isthe impact that I'm making?
(12:40):
Because it is easy to drift.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I think the biggest reason is you look at the impact
on the people that you careabout.
When a leader drifts, it's notjust the impact on them, it's
the impact is expanding incircles around there.
So just, you know real,practically you look at this
work that we are doing.
(13:10):
I love the mission of HopeInternational, so we see the
impact.
And if the headlines tomorrowwere of some significant fraud
that I had, you know the impactwould be so severe.
Trust would be lost, ourability to do this work and
serve families.
(13:30):
There would be real harm topeople, let alone the impact on
my kids and on my spouse andbroader family.
Like, I don't think we realizethe impact until we are in that
spot.
And you know, probably the mostheartbreaking thing of all the
research that we did, mostheartbreaking piece for me was
(13:50):
every single person that sharedso generously.
They shared the story with suchkindness because they were like,
if this can help someone else,please, please, please, please
don't follow this path.
And every single one said allof a sudden I realized dot, dot,
(14:11):
dot.
But that moment of realizationthat is after so many small
compromises for not months butyears, and so we're just trying
to go upstream a little bit ofthis, of saying what are those
small habits, those smallthoughts, those small behaviors
that don't make a big differencetoday or tomorrow, but if you
(14:31):
don't do them day after dayafter day, that is going to lead
your head and your heart in adifferent direction.
And then, all of a sudden,you're going to realize you're
in a place that you don't wantto go.
So the real good places takework, the real valuable
relationships take investment.
And so we're just trying to sayI love that analogy of the
(14:52):
boats rowing towards each otherlike let's set our destination,
let's grab that oar and let's go, let's row.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, and from your experience and research, what
are the early signs that youfind that a leader may be
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Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, maybe this is an odd thing to say, but I just
start with the assumption thatevery single one of us is
veering off course in some smallway, and so the number one
indicator is are we making microrecalibrations on the daily
basis?
Are we taking a differentcourse?
Another thing is do we havepeople in our life who are going
(16:11):
to speak the truth in love?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, that's a big one too.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Oh, so much of this was the danger of isolation, the
danger of having no one intheir life who really knew them.
And we were talking to this oneindividual that had walked
alongside a leader who had losttheir way and he said I just
didn't know.
I thought I knew the person,but there was just so much of
(16:36):
his life that was just kind ofkept aside.
And that should be anotherdanger sign blinking.
If there's a lot of parts ofour life that are just not known
, we just stuff them down.
We know what happens withdynamite the more you just pack
that down, the bigger the impactover time.
So that's another huge one.
(16:57):
How much of your life is knownby others?
How much of your life are youdoing with others?
And just one real concrete,practical piece I start every
Friday morning with a friend andwe've committed to doing this
for the duration.
We're going the distance witheach other and to try and say
(17:17):
they're just, are going to be inthis relationship, there's just
not going to be secrets andwe're going to do this life,
yeah, in friendship together.
That's been enormously helpful.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Oh, that's so beautiful because you have the
accountability piece, you havethe vulnerability piece and no
secrets.
So it's like, hey, we're goingto openly share what the
struggles are.
What would you say to someonewho perhaps is in a leadership
role and they don't havesomebody that you have on a
Friday that they get togetherwith, and maybe they don't even
(17:48):
know where to start?
There's, I would love for thisto be my reality.
But, Peter, where do I start?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
I would love for this to be my reality.
But, peter, where do I start?
Yeah, I mean, I would probablystart by saying what a wonderful
recognition, courage to you.
That is brave for you to saythat and to say I just don't
have that relationship or thoserelationships right now.
(18:15):
And I think about when I was inRwanda.
I was in a rural part of Rwandawith a friend.
His name was Pierre and he saidin rural parts everyone knows
they need four friends.
And I was like that's veryspecific, why four?
And he said well, that's howmany people carry a stretcher.
And you know you need people,that four are going to be there.
(18:36):
If you need to get somewhere,they're going to be the ones
that are going to be carried inthere.
And I thought that's abeautiful analogy.
We all need that core four.
So who are they?
And then the practical pieces ofwhere to start.
Oftentimes it takes time andintentionality.
That is the number one word ofall of our research.
It's like it takesintentionality.
(18:59):
You have to believe that it'simportant and then you have to
align your schedule and yourlife to make time and space so
that individual I would say whoare the people that you know?
Have you been part of a smallgroup?
Have you connected with others?
Tell me about your collegefriendships and which one of
those are most important.
(19:20):
And I think that's a really,really important starting point.
If you don't have those, ifit's 3 am and you wouldn't know
who to call, that's a reallyimportant insight.
And then the question is sowhat do we do to kind of look at
who are those people?
And for me, every January I dosomething Constellation
(19:43):
Mentoring.
It's basically like looking atthe relationships in my life and
looking at those individualsthat I want to make sure I'm
creating time and space andgrowing closer to and doing life
with on an annual basis.
So again, every January, I lookat the relationships in my life
and then make sure that that isreflected on my calendar.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, and the people that you do have in your life,
that you're close with, I'm surethat you give them permission
to speak honestly into your life, right?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, I was on a walk with one of them not that long
ago and I was processing anissue and in my work I'm known
as Peter, but anyone who knew methrough college knew me as Pete
, so that's kind of how I know,kind of where the friendship is
on that.
So he looked at me, we werewalking together and he said hey
(20:34):
, pete, you're being an idiot.
And I thought, yeah, I mean,you're probably right, but you
could have said it a littlenicer on that.
But what a gift like to havefriends in our life that
actually do give us that gift.
Wounds from a friend can betrusted, as has been written
many years ago.
And so having those friends butthen also inviting them in to
(21:00):
speak truth in moments that,yeah, you know you need it.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, like, if we don'tchallenge the people within our
inner circle, like if we're notcalling out the best in them yes
, calling out the gifts and thegood things, we see them, but
also course correction, like,hey, like, have you thought
about what the implication ofthis action or whatever that is?
Obviously in a really organicconversation, that is such a
gift to have honest people inyour life that you can really
(21:26):
openly share with.
But, like you said, it doesn'talso happen by accident.
It's not by accident thatyou're getting together with
your friend on a Friday everyweek to check in.
That is, you both made acommitment to say, hey, this is
a value to us and we know thismatters so much because
statistics say one out of threefinish well.
So it's like hey, I don't wantto be part of the negative end
(21:48):
of that statistics.
I want to be someone whofinishes well.
So let's commit to living alife of accountability, of
vulnerability, that allows us tofinish our course in the way
that we intended to finish.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And how do you do that in your life?
Busy schedule, busy leader howdo you do that in your life?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Are you asking me?
Am I being interviewed now?
Are you asking?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
just anyone listening .
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Oh, do me.
No, I'm asking you.
Yeah, well, I do.
I've actually have.
I have a solid base of peoplewho really can be super honest,
people that know all the ins andouts of my life and who will
call me higher.
Yeah, I don't have necessarilya weekly schedule like you do,
(22:33):
which probably is great andamazing.
I have some long distancefriends that we've been friends
with for basically a lifetimeand they know everything, and I
also know everything.
We hold each other accountable,you know, especially when we say
, hey, this is what I know Ineed to be working on, I want
you to hold me accountable inthis.
You know whether it's somethingto do with family or calling or
purpose.
(22:53):
And then they check in and say,hey, you asked me to hold you
accountable in this, so how areyou doing in this area?
And it's like, oh, you're right, yes, thank you.
Like recalibration, right,Keeping back on track.
Yes, I did ask you to hold meaccountable on this and thank
(23:14):
you for checking in.
Here's how I'm doing in thatarea.
And so I think, yeah, that issomething that I had to be
strategic in as well and invitethose relationships in and say,
hey, I want you to know, like,if you see me getting off course
, tell me, like you have mypermission to call me out, Like
I want you to be honest, I wantyou to tell me if you see
something off, if you see mebeing prideful in any way, if
you see me, you know, notwalking in humility and not
(23:37):
serving in a way that you knowthat I want to be serving.
I need to know that, Like Idon't want anyone to just be
like man she's doing this andthis and that, and this is what
I'm seeing.
I'm seeing those early signs ofsomeone steering off course,
but you know, I don't have thepermission maybe or the courage
to share that.
But if you say, hey, you canopenly tell me that, like I want
(23:59):
you to speak into my life, Ifyou see that that opens the door
to that conversation.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
That's so good.
That's so good, yeah, and Ithink that's an honest exercise
to go through of when was thelast time someone gave you a
difficult truth.
And if it's been a long time,that means one of two things
you've been perfect or maybepeople haven't helped, you see
it, and it typically is thelatter, not the former, of that.
(24:28):
So right?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
yeah, I think exactly .
I think you know the truth isthat none of us are perfect,
right, like we all are beings,and I think this is something
that I've learned over thecourse of the journey and being
part of several organization andchurches and seeing leadership
across the board was onheadlines, like you mentioned in
your book, or just people thatyou know in your world that have
(24:49):
fallen off course is thatpeople are human and these
people, humans, runorganizations, and whether that
is a business, whether it's achurch, whether it's a
non-profit, and so I thinksometimes we, as observers, when
we see people fail, we can makethe assumptions of you know
(25:12):
well, god must be wrong or youknow maybe something.
So we judge the wholeorganization or a whole entity
versus to identifying that we'reall human, we're all capable of
making mistakes and it's notnecessarily a reflection of a
certain industry or a certainorganization, but it's a
(25:32):
leadership failure, which is whyI love that you, in this book,
you focused on the person, notthe organization, saying okay,
how do we examine ourselves, howdo we take the mirror and look
at ourselves and say how am Idoing in this way?
How am I going to live my lifeintentionally so I don't wear a
course, and yeah, I mean, I'veseen this happen way too many
(25:53):
times and it's beendisheartening.
And what may look like aperfect family or a leader from
the outside, we don't see ituntil that suddenly happens
right, suddenly boom.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, it was one of the early research studies that
really shaped a lot of this workthat we do.
But one of the characteristicsthat was seen in almost every
case is that people thought,well, that will never happen to
me.
They thought that you know,because of their story, because
of who they were, that wouldhappen to others, but it would
never happen to me.
They thought that because oftheir story, because of who they
were, that would happen toothers, but it would never
(26:29):
happen to me.
And the converse is true.
Those people that did finishwell knew that it wasn't a
guarantee.
They knew that it required workand commitments, and that's a
huge shift on that.
So I think the question for usis do we believe that we could
lose our way?
And if we do, then that is astrong motivator to say let's do
(26:51):
the work so that that is notour story, and I think that
starting point is really, reallyimportant, never happened to me
, I would never do this.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You know, especially when you see someone fall right,
you can make the judgment andsay, oh, I would never do that,
I would never, you know.
Blah, blah, blah, whatever thatis.
But when you have theperspective that you can also be
that human who falls short andmakes the mistake or drifts off
course, so much so thateventually you're like whoa, how
did I get here?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, so in this book, I want to know, like, what do
you hope that readers will takeaway from reading this book,
from studying it, holding themirror on their leadership,
their walk?
What do you hope people willget out of it?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I think there's some books maybe that are written
from a philosopher perspectiveor studying or research on that.
I'm a practitioner and so Ihope that people do something
with this.
What are the actions, what arethe attitudes, what are the
behaviors that are going to helpon that?
(27:59):
So I would love nothing morethan what I've seen in my own
life is thinking through some ofthese concepts and doing it
with a small group of friends.
It will have a profound impacton your life, and so at the end
of every chapter there'sexercises.
Again, that's kind of the waythat I'm wired.
What do we do?
Okay, I see that that could bean issue.
I see that, whatever you know,pick the topic, and there's lots
(28:24):
of different ways to lose ourway.
Pick one of them, and then whatdo we actually do as a result?
To take that minor coursecorrection and again have that
long-term alignment with what itis that we say we value, and
then is that reflected in theway that we live.
So that's my hope, that's ourhope, that's the reason we spend
(28:46):
some time, and let's changethose statistics.
One out of three is not okaywith me.
Let's make sure we'reincreasing that.
Having our friends, those thatwe care about those that we are
doing life with.
Let's go three for three.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
When I read that I was like whoa, 30% I mean 50-50
sounds bad.
You know, it's like you got a50% chance of finishing well or
not finishing well.
That sounds bad in itself, but30%, that's a staggering
statistic.
I mean, yeah, so that is.
I definitely was super shockedby reading that you also share
(29:26):
in your book about spiritualdisciplines.
So, out of all the disciplines,which one, would you say, is
the most helpful?
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Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah, we tried to figure out like order of
causality, how do we go upstream, what are those most important?
And I don't know that.
We found that it was kind oflike the aggregate of all of
these pieces that are, all thesesubtle currents in our life
that pull us away.
But one that I found veryinteresting and again it's so
(30:38):
simple.
Much of what we find is it'snot knowing something new, it's
actually having it reflected inhow we live.
But this one was just on pacethat the faster we live, the
more likely we are to lose ourway.
Tell a story of an individualthat actually got what they
(31:02):
wanted, got this incredibleopportunity to share their story
on every single news outlet andthis opportunity to see all of
this impact.
And they were running so fast.
And you can do that for a shortterm.
You cannot do that for the longterm and I think so.
What is one of the practices?
(31:24):
I think this idea it's anancient idea, but the idea of
Sabbath that one out of sevendays you are going to unplug,
and I think that's so importantbecause unless you have a little
bit of time and space to getyour internal RPMs down, you
won't be able to look and seewhere you're drifting.
If you're always running to thenext thing, you're not going to
(31:45):
see the impact on those peoplethat are closest to you.
You're not going to have timeto say how am I doing as a dad
in this season, how am I doingcaring for you?
How can we make sure ourrelationship is growing stronger
?
You don't have thoseconversations when you're
running from one thing to thenext, and so for many
individuals, it requires alittle bit more, and again, this
(32:09):
is the intentionality.
What does it look like for usto have time, have space to slow
down, to look around, toconsider where we are and the
impact that we're having onothers?
That habit, that practice, Ithink, would help us identify
areas that we need to change inour life, that we're never going
to see if we keep going fromone thing to the next.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, that's so good.
And from your findings of yourresearch and prepping for this
book, what were some otherthings that you found
interesting or maybe evensurprising?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Oh, I mean, surprising was we started doing
this research and you know, it'salmost like when you're doing
car shopping then you startseeing cars and the thing that I
would say was most surprisingis, as we started doing this
research and you start thenreading the news differently,
you start looking at differentpieces and it's like this is a
(33:07):
crisis, Like it is a straight upcrisis of how prevalent it is
that people that are inleadership positions end up
going in a different direction.
So I think that was theshocking thing that initially I
read that study about the one inthree and I was like no way,
(33:29):
come on, no way.
And then you start studyingthis and you start looking
around and you're like that,actually I can see that, I can
see that.
And heartbreaking too.
Some of these stories that wehad were individuals that are in
the twilight years of theircareer, individuals in their 70s
, and you do that Like oh, why,why, why, why?
(33:55):
So it's like, yeah, payattention, pay attention.
So I think that is one piece.
And then again, the feedbackpiece was so instructive.
Most of the individuals thatlost their way, they just didn't
have anyone to call them out.
And that's the challenge withsuccess in an organization,
(34:17):
Success leads to more isolation.
It leads to more opportunitiesto go and leads to more of an
identity that is kind of mixedup in who I am being synonymous
with what I do, and those twothings are not true.
One other kind of practicewriting my eulogy, but I also
(34:39):
wrote my resignation letter andI hope that that letter is not
going to be mailed for manyyears.
But there was something powerfulabout writing words of
appreciation for this season,but also knowing that I am
interim in my role, and I thinkthat's another kind of check on
(35:00):
our heart is what's our identity?
How closely intertwined is thatwith what we do?
And maybe relatedly, and howare we actively helping others
grow into more significantleadership roles in the
organization?
How much do we hold on to thepieces of our job versus?
(35:21):
How are we empowering andinviting others to step into
that as well?
So I could go on, but again,it's like not one thing.
It's like all of these relatedissues that, when taken in
aggregate, yeah, either lead usto the place we want to go or
slowly lead us off track.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, it's kind of like a garden, right?
The same kind of analogy whereyou need the sun, you need the
water, you also need to pruneand weed and you know it's a
constant thing.
Like I have a garden right nowand we had a lot of rain
recently and that brought up alot of weeds, and so you have to
keep up with the weeds.
Sometimes there are seasonsthat bring weeds a lot faster
than you can keep up, so youhave to make intentional effort
(36:02):
to get rid of those weeds andcontinue to have a thriving and
healthy garden.
And it does take the sun, itdoes take the water, it does
take the pruning and the weedingand then harvesting right, and
everything is in seasons too.
So I think, recognizing theseasons, there are seasons of
planting, of harvesting, ofpruning and all of that.
So and I love that you said thatwhen success comes with more
(36:26):
isolation, because you have moreopportunity and there is more
of identifying your identitywith what you do versus to who
you are and the roots of who youare, whose you are, and that
identity and I think a lot oftimes the more successful leader
is that, I found, is that thereason they feel more isolated
(36:47):
to.
Part of it is because noteveryone can understand what
they're going through.
And so, like we have certainfriends that are just in like
the top 1%, the top 10% ofwealth or certain success
metrics, and for them it's areally lonely road because not
everyone can understand wherethey're coming from and can
(37:09):
understand their heart.
So even for them to havesomeone who is a peer of that
same level of success or thesame level of whatever metric,
they do feel isolated.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true.
Yeah, and again, that's one ofthe blinking red lights If you
feel like I have no one that Ican truly know and be known by,
if there's no one that reallycould understand I'm struggling
in this issue right now.
We are not meant to do lifealone.
(37:44):
We need others to do life withand alongside.
Yeah, so that doesn't matterwhat the sector is, but I do
think that the more successsomeone experiences, you have to
work even harder to create timeand space for that, even though
that is a universal need thatwe all have.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah Well, peter, before we wrap up this interview
, I want you to tell us wherecan people find you, and your
book is obviously found anywhere.
Books are sold, correct.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
That is correct, anywhere books are sold, yeah,
for sure, yeah.
And then if anyone wants toconnect, or if we could try and
be helpful and we do have abunch of resources as well that
even if people don't buy thebook, these tools, I really we
wanted to make it practical andactionable and so, like the
constellation, mentoring, ofthinking maybe differently about
the people in your life, if yougo to howleaderslosetheirwaycom
(38:35):
, you can get all theinformation there, and then
again, anywhere books are sold.
And then personally, I write ablog at peterkgreercom and those
are the places that connect.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And on all the socials, Awesome, and so I end
the podcast by asking threequestions.
One of them is what is thebravest thing that Peter has
ever done?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, I think maybe the one that maybe stands out is
while I was in Rwanda, we lovedgoing and seeing the silverback
gorillas and living there.
We got to see them thesilverback gorillas and living
there we got to see themmultiple times and it's not like
seeing them in a zoo.
They are the king of the jungle.
What do you mean living there?
So I lived in Rwanda earlier inmy career.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, but not living with the like where the gorillas
are.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Oh yeah, sorry, same part of the country.
Yeah, but we would go regularlyon that because you know,
whenever friends are there, atthat time it was just an amazing
experience.
And so I turned my back on thesilverback and the silverback
charged and grabbed me andstarted dragging me away into
the Virunga National Forest.
(39:42):
He let me go, stood over andbeat his chest and it was a
moment.
But maybe the bravest thing ismy wife at that moment thought
that was the right time for usto leave, but I was like, no, we
got still some time and so wegot to have that experience and
then still hung out beingsurrounded by 39 gorillas, and
(40:05):
it's an awesome experience.
So I think about time withgorillas and being dragged away,
but then still wanting to stay,maybe as something on the
outdoor adventure, I would sayoh, wow, yeah, that is quite a
remarkable experience.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I mean that one will stick, that's for sure.
What are three books that werepivotal in your life?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh, I mean in terms of the professional standpoint
Banker to the Poor by MuhammadYunus really was this idea of
understanding how finance can beused to break the cycle of
poverty.
That was a great one.
In some of the other reading Ihave loved reading Philip Yancey
and his recent books, hisautobiography I was just so
(40:50):
touched by that and his story.
But I'd recommend anything byPhilip Yancey.
There's just a realness and arawness you know he talks about
life and faith really impactedby him.
And then maybe the third one isI was really inspired by the
Bonhoeffer book by Eric Metaxasand just looking at a courageous
(41:14):
leader who was living in I meanjust talk about challenges of
that time and that season andyeah, that was a profound book
of what it looks like to and,yeah, that was a profound book
of what it looks like to have afaithful presence in the midst
of incredibly challenging times.
So yeah, those are the topthree.
Maybe that come to mind.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Awesome, yeah, those are really good.
And what is the best piece ofadvice that someone gave you?
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I think oftentimes we kind of relate to life and what
comes to us, and maybe it'sjust because we've been talking
about it.
But a friend, a mentor, I wascomplaining about something in
my life and feeling like I waspulled, and he said you realize,
you have more control than yourealize about the way that you
(42:04):
structure your day.
Realize about the way that youstructure your day.
And it just was permission tonot just like at me to be
responsive, but it waspermission to say let's flip
this around, let's let'sunderstand, and if I say I want
to be a dedicated dad, let'smake sure that I'm not
(42:24):
scheduling meetings after 5 pmso I can go cheer my daughter on
in her soccer game thisafternoon, let's make sure that
I'm not traveling so much thatI'm not present at home.
And it just was this invitationto, yeah, take more ownership
(42:48):
of the life and the things thatI can control.
There's so much of life that wecan't control.
But to actually control thethings that we can and that
level of intentionality againit's been a theme that we've
been talking about but to makesure that our calendars reflect
our priorities and put that inearly, that's been really,
really helpful.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Amazing.
Well, it's been such an honortalking to you, Peter.
Thank you so much for your time.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked you or anything
else you'd love to add to thisinterview?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
No, just for those people that are listening and
maybe do recognize that they'vemaybe lost their way.
I mean, this podcast talks alot about courage and bravery
and I would say there is nothingmore courageous or brave than
recognizing.
Maybe, if there is and my guessis you're going to be
(43:34):
surrounded by friends that aregoing to lost your way and then
doing the work to get back ontrack.
My utmost respect for thosepeople that maybe have
(43:55):
recognized there's drift in aparticular area and then do the
work to get back and cheeringfor you in that journey.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Yes, do the work that is thehard part right, and thank you,
thank you for listening.
Do the work, that is the hardpart right, and thank you.
Thank you for listening to theOnce we Dare podcast.
It is an honor to share theseencouraging stories with you.
If you enjoy the show, I wouldlove for you to tell your
friends.
Leave us a reviewer rating andsubscribe to wherever you listen
to podcasts, because this helpsothers discover the show.
(44:22):
You can find me on my website,speckhopoffcom.
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