Raising $80M to reforest the world with Diego Saez-Gil (Pachama)

Join us as we uncover the multifaceted entrepreneurial journey of Diego Saez-Gil, who navigated the twists and turns of three different startups. From the highs of selling a successful budget accommodations app to the lows of confronting airline restrictions with smart luggage, Diego's story is a testament to resilience and innovation.

In this episode, Diego shares the foundational steps for validating startup ideas across industries, drawing from his rich experience. Discover how principles of customer feedback and doing things that don't scale—lessons from Y Combinator—guided him through ventures in both software and hardware. Learn about the critical phase of achieving product-market fit and the importance of maintaining robust customer support and communication channels to iterate and improve upon products based on user feedback.

Get an inside look at the bold journey of building a hardware company from scratch, navigating manufacturing in Asia, and overcoming the hurdles of crowdfunding campaigns. Diego also illuminates the path to creating a sustainable marketplace ecosystem at Pachama, emphasizing the role of a genuine mission in attracting investors and talent. This episode is packed with valuable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs, highlighting the power of mission-driven companies in making a significant impact on the world.

Episode Transcript

Diego Saez-Gil (00:00):
I would say that , in general, to start something
you need a degree of insanity,but to start a hardware company
that is going to manufacture inAsia and ship around the world,
you need a special degree ofinsanity.
And that degree of insanityallows you to do crazy things

(00:20):
such as say all right, let's goto China and let's rent an
Airbnb in Shanghai and let'sjust be there and ask for
introductions to people whomight know factories, and then
let's just go and visit them.
And that's what we did.

Ariel Camus (00:47):
Welcome everyone.
This is Ariel Camus, and thisis the Only Thing that Matters,
where I interview successfulfounders to deconstruct their
path to product market fit andextract the principles and
frameworks behind their success.
My guest today is DiegoSaez-Gil.
He is the CEO and founder ofPachama, a leading climate tech

(01:08):
company using cutting-edgetechnologies such as computer
vision and satellites to drivefunding to effective
reforestation and conservationprojects that sequester carbon,
enhance biodiversity and enrichlocal communities around the
world.
Pachama has raised over $80million in funding and works
with customers such as Amazon,airbnb and Netflix, while

(01:32):
driving capital to forests inBrazil, mexico, india, the US
and beyond.
In this episode, diego and Italk about Y Combinator, the
importance of choosing yourinvestors, the power of
mission-driven companies and thedifficulties of building
hardware products.
I hope you learned as much as Idid, and without further ado,

(01:59):
Diego Saez-Gil, diego my friend,it's so good to have you here.

Diego Saez-Gil (02:01):
Thank you so much for making the time my
pleasure.
Thank you for the invite.

Ariel Camus (02:03):
Well, we have known each other for a long time.
You have been a big part of mystory, and every time we spend
time together, we spend hoursand hours talking about a lot of
interesting stuff.
I have the feeling that we'renot going to have enough time
today.
I have the feeling we're goingto need a second and a third
episode, but let's start withthis one.

(02:24):
I am very excited to exploreyour journey as an entrepreneur.
You have started threecompanies.
You exited the first one.
The second one has one of thehistorical records on Indiegogo
that I'm excited to explore aswell.
That story has a lot of ups anddowns as well.
Now, with Pachama, you'retrying to make the world a

(02:48):
better place for our futuregenerations by solving the
climate crisis.
There's just so much to capturethat again, I don't know if
we're going to have enough time,but let's start from the
beginning.
Could you give me a littleoverview of the three companies
that you have started?
What were they about and whatis Pacham about today?

Diego Saez-Gil (03:08):
Sure, it's been a journey indeed.
The first company was the firstmobile-only booking app for
budget accommodations app forbudget accommodations,

(03:30):
specifically hostels, bed andbreakfast and any other type of
affordable accommodation forstudents.
At the time, I was a youngtraveler.
I had spent two years in Europedoing my master's and I came to
the US and I was traveling inhostels.
I love traveling and at thetime you had these very bad
websites where you had to go andfind a place to stay and

(03:53):
meanwhile the first smartphoneshad come out and there wasn't
any app that you could use tobook a place to stay.
So we built this app thatallowed you to book last minute
a place to stay.
You could pay through the appand you could connect with other
people at the accommodation.
It was a time in which Facebookhad released the Facebook

(04:16):
Connect, so it was a socialtravel app that resonated a lot
with students.
A social travel app thatresonated a lot with students.
We got 200,000 students usingthe app and connecting it to
over 800 accommodations aroundthe world.
And it was my first startup.
I had no idea what I was doing,but eventually we raised an

(04:38):
angel round and eventually wesold the app to a bigger travel
agency that was focused onstudents in the US, that was
selling discounted flights tostudents.
So that was the first company.
The second one was that after atrip to visit my family in

(05:00):
Argentina, the airline lost mysuitcase and I became, you know,
I came out with this idea ofhow come we have smart watches,
smart thermostats and thereisn't a smart suitcase that you
can track and know where it'sgone?
So we built, we designed andcreated the first smart

(05:20):
connected luggage and welaunched a crowdfunding campaign
that was very successful.
And then I moved to China tomanufacture the product.
We ended up shipping tens ofthousands of units of this
product to travelers around theworld.
And eventually that companyfaced challenges when the

(05:41):
airlines decided to banlithium-ion batteries because
some Samsung phones had gottenon fire on airplanes, so we
couldn't sell our productanymore.
So we had to wind down thecompany and fortunately we were
able to sell the assets becausewe had filed 12 patents for
inventions that we made for thesuitcase, and that's how that

(06:02):
company chapter ended.
And then in those travels aroundthe world, especially in China,
and then another trip to theAmazon rainforest I became very
worried about climate change andthe environment and the state

(06:22):
of the planet, and what are wegoing to leave to future
generations?
So I started thinking how can Iapply everything I learned,
building tech startups, tocontribute to solving climate
change and the destruction ofnature, the biodiversity crisis
that we're facing?
These seem like problems thatgovernments or you know, I don't

(06:46):
know nonprofits generally focuson, but I figure startups are a
very effective vehicle to bringinnovation and to put talent
and attract capital to solveproblems.
So why not use it to solve oneof these type of problems?
And that was the origin ofPachama.
Pachama is a startup with amission of helping restore

(07:08):
nature to solve climate change,and we've been building
effectively a technologyplatform to help connect
corporations that want tocompensate their carbon
footprint with projects aroundthe world that are protecting
and restoring forest andsequestering carbon, and we use
satellite data and AI to verifyand monitor the impact that

(07:33):
these projects are having sothat the companies and investors
can confidently deploy capitalinto these projects.
And we've been going for morethan five years, with this
company having already a lot ofimpact, but hopefully it's just
the beginning of the journey forus.

Ariel Camus (07:49):
Wow, there is so much to unpack there.
Something that I notice is not apattern is that the first
company was a consumer mobileapp.
Then you moved on to some kindof like hardware manufacturing
or physical productmanufacturing type of company,

(08:10):
and now you're building a B2B AIpower type of product.
There's nothing in commonbetween those three types of
products, but there seems to besomething in common among them
in terms of how you came up withthe ideas and, at least from
what you described, each one ofthem seem to have come from.
Seems to be something in commonamong them in terms of how you
came up with the ideas and, atleast from what you described,
each one of them seem to havecome from something that you

(08:30):
have experienced yourself atsome point in your life that was
frustrating to you, that wasdifficult to you and was that
intentional you were you likelooking for like problems to
solve, or is it more like theother way around, that when you
find a problem that you feelneeds to be solved, there is
something in you that says, hey,let's go and do something about
it?

Diego Saez-Gil (08:49):
yeah, I think that, um, it was thinking about
opportunities and, you know,getting excited about an idea of
how could I solve a problem formyself that ideally, other

(09:09):
people would have.
This was especially the firsttwo companies right.
With this company, I was ableto dream bigger right and to say
what is the problem of humanity, what is the problem of future
generations that we can help?
Bigger right and to say what isthe problem of humanity, what
is the problem of futuregenerations that we can help
solve?
Right.
And I had more self-confidenceto think bigger right than in

(09:33):
the first companies.
But, yeah, I think thatgenerally is a good rubric to
think of a problem that isunsolved and that, as a result
of new technologies, newadvancements in certain areas,
there is a new way to solve it.
Another thing that the threeideas have in common is that

(09:54):
they combine differenttechnological advancements.
If you think about it.
The first one was the rise ofmobile and the rise of social
and the rise of payments, rightIn.
The second one was a rise ofIoT and sensors, and the third
one is the rise of AI andsatellite data, right.

(10:16):
So I'm always looking at whatare technologies that are
advancing exponentially and that, you know, when you combine two
of them, two or three of them,new possibilities emerge.
There's a book that I like alot about this topic, which is,
I think it's called when GoodIdeas Come From, by Stephen

(10:37):
Johnson, and he talks about theadjacent possible, and the
adjacent possible is this spaceof possibility that expands
every time that there is a newinnovation, and so, yeah, I
think that, in short, I alwayslook at problems that I had that

(10:58):
I could be passionate about,that could be solved by the new
adjacent possible oftechnologies.

Ariel Camus (11:04):
So you're basically answering two questions there.
One is why me and in all thecases?
Because you have experienced aproblem, because you're
passionate about them, and theother one is why now?
What is this new thing thatenables us to solve this problem
for the first time or in adifferent way?
That makes a lot of sense.
And I guess the next questionis is there a space for this in

(11:27):
the market?
Right?
These all seem to be problemsthat are worth solving, but
often that is not necessarilyenough.
The economics have to makesense and the technology has to
be mature enough.
The consumer has to be matureenough to receive the solution.
How did you go on validatingeach one of these three ideas,
and how has your approach atvalidating ideas evolved from

(11:52):
company to company and also fromindustry to industry?
I guess each one of these threecompanies probably require a
very different type ofvalidation.
I'm super curious to hear howyou did it.

Diego Saez-Gil (12:03):
Sure of validation.
I'm super curious to hear howyou did it.
Sure, the first one, you know,actually was almost a spin-off
of another idea that I wasworking with a friend in New
York before, which was kind of atravel guide for students, and

(12:23):
in fact that's probably when wemet, because you were working on
a similar idea.
But we were working on a travelguide for students and in fact
that's probably when we met,because you were working on a
similar idea, but we wereworking on a travel guide that
was more like a content play,which is super difficult to
monetize.
But in doing so, we were, youknow, talking to young travelers
, we were visiting hostels and Ithink that, like the, the

(12:45):
bigger problem emerged.
That was, you know, booking aplace to stay, and that was a
problem that that is more easilymonetizable right, because
there's a transaction, there'smoney being exchanged than when
you're doing, you know, researchor planning for your trip.
And but in in thoseconversations with travelers, we
validated there was a need andthen what I did was actually to.

(13:10):
We actually participated on astartup weekend, which was an
event that used to happen aroundthe world, which was a weekend
in which you come together witha bunch of aspiring
entrepreneurs and you had tobuild something, starting on
Friday and you had to ideallyvalidate and ship by Sunday.
And we actually did.

(13:31):
We built the first version ofthis you know hostel booking app
and we launched it and wevalidated and we heard a lot of
feedback.
Then, to actually launcheProduct to the world, I
actually brought the teamtogether.
I rented a house in thecountryside of Colombia and I

(13:53):
moved there with three engineers, one designer and one product
person and for one month, wefull-time hacked the first
version of the app that wewanted to launch to the world.
And one month later, wefull-time hacked the first
version of the app that wewanted to launch to the world
and one month later we weresubmitting to the App Store and
that's how we launched the firstproduct and from there we just

(14:14):
started iterating by hearingfeedback from users.
That was the first startup.
With the second one, withhardware, it's a lot harder,
right, because you you have tobuild a prototype, you have to
build a design for manufacturing.
It's so, so hard.

(14:34):
But what we did was to preparefor a crowdfunding campaign and
the crowdfunding campaign wasgoing to be the you know, the
finding moment of whether we dothis or not.
But even for the crowdfundingcampaign, you had to prepare a
lot of products to show andmaterials to display what you
are planning to build.

(14:55):
So along the way, we actuallydid do a lot of user research.
Some on the team went toairports around the world where
we were to talk to travelers.
We interviewed people and webought a bunch of competitor
products or legacy suitcases andwe studied them.

(15:16):
We put them apart and, by theway, it was a super fun part of
the process.
We spoke before about how funthese zero to one moments are.
I find it super, superstimulating to be doing that
part.
And then we launched acrowdfunding campaign and it

(15:36):
resonated.
But we also learned a lot aboutwhat people value more, which
oftentimes is unexpected whatthey value versus what you think
they will value.
And then with the third company, it was even more difficult in
a sense, because here we weretrying to serve corporations as

(16:00):
customers and as customers, andyou know landowners or NGOs and
you know project developers inother parts of the world.
But again, I did the same, justin this case ask for
introductions, jump on calls andtalk to people and take notes,

(16:21):
but more than anything, deeplylisten to what I was hearing
their needs and their problemswere, and then try to come up
with a solution for them.

Ariel Camus (16:31):
All right, I want to go deeper into all of that,
but before that I'll say twothings that you and I know that
I'm not making up.
I'm just, you know, stealingthem from Y Combinator that we
both have been part of in yourcase twice, and actually I got
into Y Combinator that we bothhave been part of in your case
twice, and actually I got into YCombinator because of you
probably.
So, thank you so much, theo.
Once again, my pleasure.

(16:51):
But the two very well-knownprinciples of YC are talk to
your customers and do thingsthat don't scale, and I'm
hearing both of those principlesapplied in each one of the
three companies.
Right, it's about going tohostels so that you can speak to
people and getting the teamtogether in Colombia for a month

(17:13):
.
Yeah, none of that reallyscales, but it gives you a lot
of opportunities to move reallyfast, to talk to people, to get
information in ways that youwant people to do in the future,
but it gives you a lot ofinformation, initially With
BlueSmart.
Right, doing an Indiegogocrowdsourcing campaign is not

(17:33):
something that can actuallyscale and, yes, it takes a lot
of time to do it, but it's oneof those things that can give
you a lot of information at thebeginning about whether it makes
sense or not to continue.
Soudos, for thinking about thatone.
It makes a lot of sense.
Um and and for for pajama.
It's also like using yourconnections, which are, even if

(17:54):
powerful, because you have beenin the rodeo for a while, uh,
they're limited, right.
So it's asking for those favorsand interests.
You can't do that every day,but at the beginning that opens
the doors to conversations thatwill give you a lot of
information.
It makes total sense.
But at which point and I'mgoing to keep going with this
format of comparing the threecompanies, I don't know.

(18:16):
I find it like a veryinteresting way of comparing,
but at which point, in each oneof these three companies did you
say, what was the moment thatyou realized OK, it makes sense,
let's keep going.

Diego Saez-Gil (18:29):
What was the KPI or the type of qualitative
feedback or conversation thatgave you the confidence to say,
and in general inentrepreneurship, there has to
be a general conviction aboutthe general space, right, you

(18:56):
don't know exactly yet at thebeginning what are the specific
most important problems you needto solve, what are the features
that the product or theoffering has to have, but there
was always a strong convictionthat in this space, there are
opportunities and I ampassionate about them.

(19:18):
I am passionate about spendingtime identifying these
opportunities and solving theseproblems right.
So I think that if you don'thave that conviction right,
you're not going to persistthrough, you know, the journey
of finding what the problems andthe solutions are right.
So that's why I think that it'simportant to, yes, be very

(19:49):
honest with yourself aboutvalidating assumptions and not
getting too attached to certainassumptions, but I do think
there has to be a generalconviction about the space, the
problems and the opportunitiesthat potentially exist there,
and so that's something that I,in the three cases you know,

(20:13):
once I gained that conviction, Istarted working and I knew that
I was going to work on this fora couple of years right Now, in
terms of when did I feel readyto launch?
Yeah, I don't think that it'snecessarily a metric.
I think that it's a gradualaccumulation of evidence.

(20:35):
In my case, I'm more anintuition person, right, than a
data person.
Of course, I take a lot of data, but it's not that I'm tracking
a specific number.
It's more like a buildup ofintuition to a moment in which
it's like I get it, this is itAgain.
In that book also, stevenJohnson talks about these

(20:56):
hunches.
You have a hunch and then overtime you build conviction about
that hunch right, and there's amoment in which you feel this is
it, uh, like the way that I'mpresenting the idea resonates
with the audience and and andnow it's the moment to to go out
more publicly about it what?

Ariel Camus (21:17):
what was the moment , let's say, with we hostels,
that you felt like enoughevidence had accumulated that
you were like, okay, this is not, this is going to work, but
this is actually working, Iguess to to give it a name,
right, like, what is the momentof, let's say, product market
fit, where you feel like themarket is kind of taking what

(21:39):
desperately what you are, uh,into it?
You?

Diego Saez-Gil (21:42):
know, I think, I think there was a moment we
launched the app and you know,another thing that YC has is
this chart of like the techcrunch of initiation, because
you know, I don't know if peoplestill use tech crunch to launch
products but you get the firstarticle about your product

(22:08):
launch and you have a lot ofdownloads or visits to your
website, but then that goes downbecause of course, the novelty
passes and those numbers go down.
And then there is a thorough ofdisillusionment where you have
small peaks like nothing isreally happening.

Ariel Camus (22:27):
And then there is a moment in which things start to
consistently grow because youfound I think there was like a
valley of sorrow somewhere inthe middle where you owned for a
long time without seeing anysign of success, and that's the
most difficult part, exactly so.

Diego Saez-Gil (22:41):
I think we definitely saw that with hostels
.
We launched initial good spikeof downloads and usage and then
we went down and then, over time, with new feature releases and
with improvements on the app andwith more articles in the press
, we started getting new bumpsof growth articles in the press,

(23:04):
you know, we started gettingkind of like new bumps of growth
and then, you know, the SEO onthe App Store started improving
for us and when you went to theiPhone App Store and you look
for hostel and even hotels, ourapp was first we started hacking
, doing all these growth hacks,right, and then we started
getting consistent growth andthen is when you know, we sold
the company frankly, because Iwas also seeing that competition

(23:27):
was going to be really toughwith Bookingcom and Airbnb and
many other players that weremuch more funded than us at the
time.
So we took that moment oftraction and growth to find a
partnership for the company.
But yeah, you know, I don'tknow to find a partnership for,
for, for, for the company.
But yeah, you know, I don'tknow.

(23:49):
Well, in the case of blue smart, uh, as soon as we launched a
crowdfunding campaign, it wasactually almost like an
immediate uh, craze, right.
Uh, how do?

Ariel Camus (23:56):
you define some expectations, Like, of course
you always set a goal for anycrowdfunding campaign and I know
you, you know past the, you metthe goal really quickly, but
did you have like a real goal?
That was kind of like, if weget to this point, you know this
is amazing, or?

Diego Saez-Gil (24:11):
Yeah, the stated target was $50,000.
Our internal target was$500,000, right, 10x the stated
target, and we ended up raising$3.5 million, right.
So you, you know it was wild.
So I think sometimes we woulddare to dream well, what if we

(24:33):
make a couple of million dollars?
That would be amazing, and thathappened.
So in that case it was like animmediate traction.
But then there was this valleyof suffering when we had to then
go to China and manufacture aproduct, all while we kept
taking orders.
And then, once we were shippingthe product, with hardware, you

(24:58):
have that moment of productmarket fit People want what
you're building.
But then you have a secondmoment of truth of product
market fit, which is you shipthe product and then there is,
you know, the true either youfulfill the expectations they
had or not.
And we're seeing, actually thisweek, you know, many hardware
products being crashed byreviewers and I feel it for them

(25:21):
.
It's so hard and I feel it forthem it's so hard.
But you know, with hardwarethere are more than one product
market fit moment.

Ariel Camus (25:29):
I would say how did you manage to create some kind
of communication channel withthese customers once they
received their product, to knowhow satisfied they were?

Diego Saez-Gil (25:43):
Yeah, I mean we had to build a customer support
team.
We built it down in Argentinaand you know we had, you know,
several channels.
You know you could chat with uson the website, you could call
us.
There was a phone number and,yeah, I mean we tried to respond
to all the comments.
I think you know there werelike we had tens of thousands of

(26:05):
orders.
I don't remember exactly thenumber of the first year, but
tens of thousands.
So tens of thousands of peoplethat received the product and of
course, the first version, tobe honest, was baggy.
You know there were many bagson the product and people, you
know, are loud when there is abag on a product.
So yeah, I mean I guess it wasjust being very, very available

(26:30):
and us as founders also beingvery available.
We were doing customer support.

Ariel Camus (26:34):
Makes sense, and I think that's another pattern of
a lot of successful founders,especially in the early days.
Everyone does customer supportbecause it's another way of
talking to your customers, right?
So it makes a lot of sense,although I wonder when it's
customer support because it'sanother way of talking to your
customers, right?
So it makes a lot of sense,although I wonder.
When it's customer support, youtend to get a very biased
perception of what yourcustomers are experiencing
because you only get to hear thetroubles they have.

(26:55):
What did you do to also get tosee whether people like the
people who were not havingproblems how happy, how excited
was the product you know as likeamazing to them, it was like a
like step function compared tolike a normal piece of suitcase.

Diego Saez-Gil (27:10):
Yeah, I mean totally.
You first focus on people withproblems, right.
But every so often you know youneed to have, you know for your
own sanity, the testimonial ofsomeone who's happy, and we did
get many of those.
And in social media there werepeople posting.
You know about their awesomeexperience and you know photos.

(27:34):
That was the nice part is whenwe saw people posting on social
media and then we got someamazing surprises, like one day
Usain Bolt, the Olympic champion, posted a photo in an airport
with a suitcase.

Ariel Camus (27:47):
And that was not something you planned.

Diego Saez-Gil (27:50):
No he bought it and then he posted it, and then
he went to the Olympic Games inRio with our suitcase, and then
one went to the Olympic Games inRio with our suitcase, and then
one day Sean Penn landed in JFKand was taking a photo by
paparazzis with our suitcase,and so all these things were
very rewarding.
And then I remember, actually,the first time that I was at an

(28:11):
airport and I see a random guywith a suitcase, and of course I
approached this person.
I was like, hey, that's a coolsuitcase, do you like it?
And then the person yeah, Ilike it a lot.
And then, you know, I pretendedthat I wasn't the founder until
at some point I told him butyeah, that's, the nice thing
about a hardware product is thatyou get to see it out in the

(28:32):
world.

Ariel Camus (28:34):
That's a feeling that with software, it's much
difficult to get for sure.
I would love to go a little bitdeeper into the process of
building the first version ofthe suitcase.
Like you had to go to China.
Like that on its own seems tobe such a massive probably
massive barrier for a lot ofpeople to even want to try this.

(28:54):
I think maybe we can throw somelight and I know it's been a
few years already, but maybe wecan throw some light of what
does the process look like andhow is your experience with this
journey of all the way fromdesigning the product to, you
know, manufacturing it?
I'm sure it goes through like aprototyping stage and then you
have like a qa stage and likehow does it look like?

(29:16):
I'm an ignorant on that topic,so I'm super curious to learn
all this.

Diego Saez-Gil (29:20):
You know, I would say that in general, to
start something you need adegree of insanity.
But to start the hardwarecompany that is going to
manufacture in Asia and shiparound the world, you need a
special degree of insanity.
And that degree of insanityallows you to do crazy things

(29:43):
such as say all right, let's goto China and let's rent an
Airbnb in Shanghai and let'sjust be there and just ask for
introductions to people whomight know factories and then
let's just go and visit them.
And that's what we did.
You know, we rented an Airbnbin Shanghai, we went with a team
of four or five people and thenwe would fly between Shanghai

(30:06):
and Shenzhen and Beijing andHanzhou and you know wherever.
We would find some connectionsto factories that could
manufacture the two parts ofwhat we were building, because
we were building a suitcase andwe were building an electronic
that needed to go inside of thesuitcase.
So it was two types offactories that we needed.

Ariel Camus (30:28):
Did you have anyone with experience, having done
this before, or any advisor thatwas telling you hey, you do x,
y and z?

Diego Saez-Gil (30:37):
not really.
I mean, we were asking forconnections and learning along
the way, uh, but a high degreeof ignorance and sometimes
ignorance is bliss, because ifwe knew how hard it was, we
probably wouldn't have startedright.
So later on we did hire youknow, we hired someone in Hong

(31:01):
Kong who was an expert on, youknow, supply chains and an
expert on manufacturing, like we.
Later on, as we raised capital,we managed to hire, you know,
locals that could help us.
But at the beginning it wasjust us, a bunch of Argentinians
who had never been to China,doing whatever we could.

(31:22):
So in parallel, part of theteam was visiting factories,
learning from theseconversations with the factories
.
Part of the team was designingthe industrial design by putting
competitor products apart,learning what was possible.

(31:44):
What could we innovate?
Because we also took theopportunity to say let's
innovate everything of asuitcase, let's start from
scratch.
How is going to be the suitcaseof the 21st century?
Right, and in fact we came upwith some very crazy ideas that
you know we never, you knowincorporated into the final
product.
But that was also fun, you know, to really think, you know,

(32:07):
outside of the box, what asuitcase could be in the future.

Ariel Camus (32:11):
By the way, as a travel nerd, could you share?
Do you remember a couple ofthose that you haven't seen yet?

Diego Saez-Gil (32:17):
Well, I mean, we thought of things such as a
self-driving suitcase that wouldfollow you, or you know, we
thought of a suitcase attachedto a drone that would fly like
crazy ideas, right, that didn'tmake sense, but it was fun to
entertain, right?
Sounds fun.
That didn't make sense, but itwas fun to entertain, right,
sounds fun.
And but you know so, someonewas designing, others were

(32:40):
talking to manufacturers, otherswere prototyping, others were
like a part of the team wasprototyping the electronics,
right, and the first product ofthe electronic was a Tupperware
with some electronics insidethat we would just send around
the world to see if we couldtrack that object.
Right, with the technology wecame up with, which is GPS plus

(33:01):
3G and Bluetooth.
But, to be honest, there wasn'ta process.
It was like a crazy series ofactivities done by people and
just coordinated by constantcommunication between team
members.

Ariel Camus (33:18):
Communication across very different time zones
by the way, right yes.
Was that a challenge on its own, or how did you overcome that?

Diego Saez-Gil (33:28):
For sure.
I mean, it was a challenge, buteverybody was working 12 hours
a day.
Right, it was, everybody wasworking 12 hours a day, right,
us also, you know we were allyoung single no, we're actually
not single, all of us but ourrelationship suffered, for sure,
but, but, but people wereworking, you know, across time

(33:55):
zones to be able to communicatebetween China, argentina, the US
, and so it was a super intensetime, not really a process.
There was one on the team thatwas like we had a wall with a
giant gun chart of things thatneeded to happen before and
after for the final milestone ofshipping the first batch of
products.
Right, but you know it was avery messy process, with an

(34:20):
attitude of let's do whatever ittakes to move as fast as we can
on the critical things thatneed to happen.

Ariel Camus (34:28):
If you were to start a new hardware company.
Let's say you want to make ithappen.
Now there are new regulations,whatever, like what will you do
differently this time to buildthat type of product?

Diego Saez-Gil (34:40):
I will answer what the founder of Nvidia
answered the other day, which isI wouldn't.
I wouldn't start a new hardwarecompany Now, to be honest,
unless you know it can solve acritical problem of humanity
such as climate change.
I do think we need new hardwarecompanies on the energy,

(35:02):
transportation and you know somany industries as we
decarbonize and move away fromfossil fuels and build a more
sustainable future.
But so what would I dodifferent if I had to start a
new hardware company?
First and foremost, I wouldn'tdo a crowdfunding campaign
because, even though that was avery good way to validate the

(35:23):
idea and, to you know, gatherfeedback and so forth, it
creates, you know, anexpectation and a deadline that
you don't know you can deliver.
That pressure of shippingsomething fast is actually not
good for hardware Hardware.

(35:44):
You need time, to you know,build, iterate, prepare the
manufacturing, fix issues.
So I would try to raise a lotof money up front, which, again,
at the time, we probablycouldn't have done right,
because we didn't have the trackrecord.
But you know, ideally, you knowyou raise a lot of money and

(36:04):
you have time.
You know a couple of years tofigure out a first product, but
that's something that noteverybody can and not everybody
can, or you know.
Frankly, you shipped a firstgeneration, but with very clear
expectations about the fact thatit's just a prototype.

(36:26):
The first generation is alwaysa prototype.

Ariel Camus (36:28):
Makes sense, makes total sense, and I can see why
it's such a difficult uh thingto do.
And if you, if you couldn't dothe, the crowdfunding campaign,
what will you do to validatethat there is this, you know,
very strong product market, thatthe market really wants, uh,

(36:48):
the product?
Even if you can raise the moneyright, like raising a lot of
money and spending a year, twoyears, three years working on
hardware, even if the convictionis there, even if you have done
the let's say you have answeredthe questions of why now?
Why me?
Is there anything that youwould have done if not
crowdfunding to validate themarket interest?

Diego Saez-Gil (37:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think that you can.
There are other ways you can doit.
You can run focus groups.
You can, you know, just uh,build a beta testing group that
you give prototypes and maybeyou pay them to use it and give
you feedback uh, but withoutputting out there in the public.
By the way, another thing thatI would do on hardware is not

(37:37):
have that many features.
That's a problem that we had,and so many other hardware
products have try to promise toomany features in the first
version.
Each feature is a newopportunity for bugs and
problems.
So just have one feature thatis useful, that brings new value
to the customer.

(37:57):
That's enough, right, and don'ttry to do too much on the first
version.

Ariel Camus (38:06):
That seems very applicable to any type of
startup, not just hardwarestartups.
I can see why for hardware,it's probably super important
because of the high cost ofintroducing bugs and defects.
But even for software startups,I think it's a very common
mistake, especially first-timeentrepreneurs, to try to compete
by having a lot of more things.

(38:27):
Then you really cannot spend asmuch time doing one thing
incredibly well, much betterthan anyone else.
You don't really know what isthe one thing that is actually
making a difference.
There's always someone elsewith more money that can move
faster by hiring more engineersto build futures faster.
So it's a slippery slope and Ithink it's a good piece of

(38:50):
advice for everyone.
And yeah, you started talkingabout the connection between
this experience in China,pollution and then Pachama, your
current company, and I wouldlove to now talk about Pachama,
the big dream, the big push tomake the planet a better place.

(39:12):
How did you go on validatingthis idea?
How did you get started?
How was it different to theother two companies?

Diego Saez-Gil (39:20):
Yes, I mean, in this case we had two customers,
if you want.
In one hand was companies thathad an environmental commitment
to compensate their carbonfootprint and on the other side,
projects that were doingreforestation or conservation

(39:46):
and seeking to certify or havingcertified already carbon
credits and looking to sellthose carbon credits to these
companies.
Right, already carbon credits.
And looking to sell thosecarbon credits to these
companies, right.
So again, it was about justgoing and having conversations

(40:07):
with those stakeholders andafter a period of just
validation and going and askinghey, if we were to build
something like this, would youfind value?
Actually, no, the firstquestion was what are your
problems, what are your topproblems?
And then, once we had heardwhat were their top problems, we
would say if we were to buildsomething like this, would you
find value?
Do you think that this issomething that would solve your

(40:29):
problem?
Would you give it a try?
And after hearing positiveanswers to that, then we went
and built a first version ofthat and we came back to all
these people saying look, here'sthe first version.
Will you take a look and willyou entertain using it?
And then we started seeingfirst usage.

(40:51):
We got into Y Combinator and wegot these three months to try to
get as much traction and in theform of transactions right.
We wanted companies purchasingcarbon credits from these
projects through our platformand we managed to do it and by
the end of YC we had like a nicecurve of growth that allows us
to then raise a first round offunding and then from then on, I

(41:17):
hired our first commercialperson, a sales guy, to go and
help me At the beginning.
Of course, as a founder, youhave to do sales right and then
at some point you can hiresomeone to fully dedicate to the
sales.
And you continue doing it whileyou do product and fundraising
and you know all the things thatyou need to do to start a

(41:39):
company right, every area, allthe things that you need to do
to start a company right everyarea.
But yeah, it was a sales-driven, it is still a sales-driven
motion, a businessdevelopment-driven motion, in
which you want to be in front ofthe right decision maker at
these organizations.
You want to develop arelationship and generally it's

(41:59):
a long sales cycle.
You want to develop arelationship and generally it's
a long sell cycle.
It's a long cycle of buildingtrust and adapting your offering
to the needs of your customers.

Ariel Camus (42:11):
What is the average transaction size for Pachama?

Diego Saez-Gil (42:17):
Right now I would say it's a couple of
hundred thousand dollars, but wehave transactions that are in
the millions of dollars, and soit varies Was that the size also
at the very beginning.
No, at the beginning was on thethousands of dollars or ten
thousands of dollars, and thenit started growing.

(42:38):
We started realizing that wecould go up into the enterprise
chain, so to say.
we actually started selling toyc companies, by the way we went
to you know, to to other yccompanies, to probably the more
successful or well-funded yccompanies.
But then we started going upthe chain all the way to the
largest corporations in theworld and along the way we were

(42:59):
improving our offering.
Improving the way to thelargest corporations in the
world and along the way we wereimproving our offering,
improving the way that we showedup, improving our communication
and our data and our offeringin short.

Ariel Camus (43:15):
At the beginning, you had to build the technology
for the marketplace, the aitechnology for the verification
of the, the carbon you knowfootprint uh was being offset by
the deforest.
You had to build the salesprocess with the companies uh
wanting to buy the carbon umcredits.
And you also had to build therelationships with the, let's

(43:38):
say, land owners.
Yes, yes, Was there like inthis marketplace, like having to
build, you know, two productsand also relationships with the
two sides at the same time?
Was there anything, any kind oflike hack there on?
Hey, can we just do half ofthat at the beginning, somehow?

Diego Saez-Gil (43:55):
Or did you do all of them, minimum viable
versions of everything allaround and then hiring people
and giving them a single missionright?
There was one person in theteam whose job was to go and

(44:18):
talk to as many projectdevelopers in Latin America as
we could.
There was another person whosejob was to go and talk to as
many corporations, or get us inthe calls with, as many
corporations buying carboncredits in the world.
There was one person who wasfocused on building a first
version of an algorithm tomeasure and monitor carbon on
satellite data.
There was one person focused onanalyzing projects using that

(44:39):
data analyzing projects usingthat data.
There was one person focused onthe website for facilitating
the transactions creating youraccount and purchasing and
tracking a project.
So a small team, but each onewith a particular mission
related to building the piecesthat are needed for that first
minimum viable ecosystem oftransactions to happen.

Ariel Camus (45:04):
But even in the very early moments you had to
build all the pieces.
There was no piece that youcould get away, for example, by
selling the carbon credits orgetting a promise of a future
transaction so that you couldget the letter of intent without
having the project yet yeah,for sure.

Diego Saez-Gil (45:25):
I think the first transactions were lois,
were letters of intents, thatthen we say, okay, yeah, sign
this paper, and then let us gorun and get you, you know uh,
the credits, uh, from theprojects, right, so there was
definitely that.
You know, time arbitration,right, being always transparent,

(45:46):
right, because you don't wantto lose trust, you don't want to
lie, for sure.
But you can say, look, you know, I'm still securing the deal
with the supply side, but signthis letter of intent so
actually I can go and make ithappen.
You know, confidently, right,there were, there were
definitely, uh, and until today,frankly, you know, getting a

(46:07):
supply and a demand to meet atthe right time with the right
conditions takes a lot of backand forth with the two sides was
there any part of your visionfor Pachama and your vision for
how to solve the problem thatyou had to like temporarily give
up and say we will do this, butwe'll do it later?

(46:29):
All the time, all the time,especially, for example, with AI
.
You know being being soexciting, having so many
possibilities.
There's so many things that Ienvision that could be done,
that we could do, but that,unfortunately, you know, for

(46:50):
focus, I have to say no to right.
This is a market, a world withso much need for innovation
across every front that I haveto constantly restrain myself of
not telling the team hey, let'sdo this.
I'm coming out with ideas allthe time, right, but I had to

(47:12):
restrain myself like, okay, I'mnot going to tell anybody this
idea because I don't wantanybody to get distracted.
We already have so many thingson the table anybody to get
distracted.

Ariel Camus (47:24):
We already have so many things on the table.
How did you discover what werethe, let's say, minimum?
Yeah, the minimum viableproduct, the minimum number of
features that you actuallyneeded um to build so that you
could actually focus on theright things?

Diego Saez-Gil (47:34):
again talking to customers.
Talking to customers, askingthem what are their problems.
I like to ask you, know whatare your top three problems, do
you?

Ariel Camus (47:43):
ask like top three problems in general, or are you
kind of say within theboundaries of, I don't know,
your carbon footprint?

Diego Saez-Gil (47:51):
Yeah, I mean generally.
We are talking to the person incharge of.
You know carbon.
You know carbon sequestrationor carbon.

Ariel Camus (48:00):
You know decarbonization at companies is
that normally a person that isonly dedicated to that in these
large organizations, or do theynormally have some other role
and that's part of their scope?

Diego Saez-Gil (48:11):
yeah, there is everything.
In large organizations there isvery specialized people on
their teams sourcing, you knowcarbon projects, others, you
have sustainabilityprofessionals.
That's everything right.
But, yeah, asking what aretheir top problems, trying to
understand more, why are theseproblems problems and how are

(48:32):
they solving them?
Today?
And we're constantly, I franklythink that product market fit
is not a one moment in time.
You have to constantly thinkthat product market fit is not a
one moment in time.
You have to constantly refreshyour product market fit.
Needs change, technologieschange, industries change and I
think that you have to beconstantly re-challenging your

(48:56):
own assumptions and what you'rebuilding, whether what you're
building is the right thing.

Ariel Camus (49:01):
Yeah, it's like the horizon For every step you take
it moves one step away from you, at least, I guess.
To keep going with the analogy,you can see that it gets
brighter, but it keeps moving asyou make progress.

Diego Saez-Gil (49:14):
So yeah, that makes sense these times where
technology is advancing so fast,like you know.
I think change is acceleratingon the technology world, right.
So I think that no one can feeltoo comfortable with you know.
Suppose product market fit, noteven Google or Microsoft or

(49:36):
Amazon right Like biggestcompanies, or Apple right Amazon
right Like biggest companiesaround.
Apple right, biggest companiesin the world have to be, you
know, and they are, you know,constantly challenging their own
assumptions.

Ariel Camus (49:47):
To start Pachama you had to put together a small
but mighty team of veryspecialized people and roles
that takes time to find thepeople and skill, but also takes
money.
How did you approach thecapital side of things?
With Pachama, you have raisedmore than $80 million.
That's a lot of money.

(50:07):
I'm curious about the earlydays.
How did you think about capitalhere and how did that compare
to the other two companies?

Diego Saez-Gil (50:13):
Yes, fundraising .
So with Pachama I was fortunateto already have a lot of
connections, right To know a lotof investors here in Silicon
Valley and around the world, andI also did Y Combinator for the
second time, and Y Combinatoris, you know, an expansion of

(50:35):
your network.
Right, you have Demo Day, whereyou're pitching to hundreds of
investors.
Right, you have.

Ariel Camus (50:42):
Demo Day, where you're pitching to hundreds of
investors.
And why did you do YC twice?
Was it just because of Demo Day, or what was it about it?

Diego Saez-Gil (50:52):
I'm a huge fan of YC and I'm public about it.
I think that, first andforemost, it's a wonderful
community of positive,well-meaning people that I got
so much value from just beingpart of the community that first
and foremost, I wanted this newcompany to be part of the
community.
I wanted to give back to thecommunity by being again with my

(51:16):
own company.
But I also wanted the advice ofthe partners and in fact I got
game wanted the advice of thepartners and in fact I I got
game changing advice during thethe yc uh process with pajama uh
could you share?

Ariel Camus (51:30):
do you remember one piece of advice that was, uh,
that unexpectedly valuable?

Diego Saez-Gil (51:36):
for sure I, too, I can say I had office hours
with Paul Graham, who's thelegend, and he told us guys,
you're thinking too small.
You guys can be bigger thanAirbnb or Google, because you're
going to be channeling all themoney in the world that wants to
go to solve climate change.

(51:57):
If you can build the bestplatform to drive that money to
solutions, you may as well justthink bigger and pitch bigger to
investors.
Right and I think that's one ofthe superpowers of PGE is that
he takes your idea and expandsit to its biggest possible form.
And then the other side, I hadMichael Seibel saying like we

(52:20):
had office hours with him and hewas like okay, what do you do
this week?
And we were like oh, we'recoding this feature.
He's like why are you notselling?
Why are you not talking tocustomers?
You know, why are you not likecan you not sell?
We're like no, because we don'thave yet you know this ready.
He was like can you just go andget an loi like what we were

(52:44):
talking before?
He pushes.
Even though this is my thirdstartup, I still needed that
reminder and that push.
This week you should be selling.
You should be talking tocustomers, right?

Ariel Camus (52:53):
I find this sorry, the, the, the group, um partners
, you know, and the, the weeklymeetings you have with your
group and the partners assignedto your group.
I found them to be some of themost valuable hours of my life
as an entrepreneur.
Like and it's exactly what yousaid Like it's not that you
don't know those things, it'sthat it's so easy to miss the

(53:14):
forest for the trees right.
Like you are in the day-to-day,you know, in the trenches
getting things done, and thenyou often forget that there is a
bigger picture that you mightbe missing.
And just having someone holdingyou accountable to do the
things that you know you shouldbe doing, you just like forget
because you get lost into thedetails of the day-to-day.

(53:37):
To me, that type ofaccountability and it is
annoying, like every week islike hey, what are you trying to
accomplish?
This week?
I'm going to try to get 10customers, and it doesn't matter
if you say 10 or whatevernumber, they will just multiply
that by 10 or by two.
They'll say why not 100?
Come on, you know, even 10 ishard.
Why is it hard?
And why, and why?
And at the end of that hour,you, you do, they push you

(53:59):
always to go a little bitfurther, and I find that super
powerful.

Diego Saez-Gil (54:03):
Yeah, totally so .
It was an amazing experience.
And then, yes, demo Day is also, of course, super valuable
right To have all investors inone room, you know, listening to
your pitch and then wanting tocome and talk to you.
That's, you know, a gamechanger for fundraising.
But with Pachama I was.

(54:24):
So we managed to get a lot ofinterest in our first round of
funding like huge interest, andI took that to pick amazing
investors.
And like, the first investorthat we closed with was Chris
Saka, who was pivoting toclimate investing and he was

(54:46):
creating this new fund calledLower Carbon.
And then Chris Saka introducedme to Ryan Graves, who was the
co-founder of Uber, who, youknow, had, just, you know,
exited Uber and was looking togive back to the planet.
And then that was a snowball ofintroductions to incredible

(55:07):
people that led us to have anamazing group of investors.
And what I learned from myprevious company is that it's
all about who you raise moneyfrom.
It's not about the valuation,it's not about the fancy brand
of the VC.
It's about the people that youare going to be interacting with

(55:28):
, that are going to join yourboard or that, even if they
don't join your board, are themain point of contact that are
going to help you through theups and downs.
Yeah, fundraising is just, uh,like they say that, celebrating
fundraising is like a chefcelebrating going to the
supermarket and buying theingredients right it's nothing

(55:50):
to be celebrated, it's just okay.
You got some input that youneeded to go and build and in
fact it increases the pressurebecause like, oh, now you need
to give back this money.
Multiply many times, right, soit adds new pressure.
In fact, I have huge admirationI know you too for
bootstrapping entrepreneurs whodon't raise money and manage to

(56:12):
build companies.
I never did that myself, so Ihave enormous respect and
admiration for for the ones whodo.
Enormous respect and admirationfor the ones who do.
But for certain things you doneed capital, but you have to
take it with a level ofresponsibility and respect that
it entails and then use themoney very thoughtfully to hire

(56:35):
great people and build productsfor your customers.

Ariel Camus (56:39):
You've said something that it's I was going
to say, counterintuitive, butit's just like maybe an
unpopular opinion, and it isthat choosing the right
investors at the beginningmatters.
And I say this because veryoften you hear you know, the
idea of smart money is a lie.
There's no smart money, there'sjust money and kind of annoying

(57:00):
money, like people who are notgood investors.
I will, like you know, driveyou crazy, but you have a
different opinion that theseearly people who join your
mission can actually be veryinfluential.
In my experience, by the way,I've had cases like that.
They were the exception.
I've had cases in later stages,like, for example, in my case.

(57:22):
I decided that I didn't want tostart a board of directors in
the seed stage.
I started in our Series A andthe investor that joined the
board in the Series A has beenso incredibly helpful and added
a lot of value.
So that was definitely smartmoney, smart capital.
But it also came with a largeticket size, a big chunk of
ownership of the company.

(57:43):
So the incentives were there.
But for an angel investor thatis not putting a lot of money,
that's not necessarily the case,because they make a lot of
investments.
How did you think about this?

Diego Saez-Gil (57:52):
So here's an insight from Pachama Every
single person that comes arounda company brings with them their
principles, their connections,their energy.
If we want to get hippiewoo-woo right, their vibes and

(58:17):
you know, you have to curatethat Because, at the end of the
day, a company is just that is,a group of people's.
You know ideas and connectionsand and tasks and execution that
create something.
And I'm talking not only about,like generally you think of
that and you think of theemployees of the company, but
it's actually every person whowho will come and contribute to

(58:41):
a startup, from your lawyers whowill incorporate the company.
You know the PR firm that youmight hire to launch.
You know the company.
You know whatever external youknow agency you use for anything
in the company.
And then, of course, theemployees, the investors, like
every person who comes to thecompany, and then, of course,

(59:01):
the employees, the investors,like every person who comes to
the company, are co-creating thecompany.
And therefore, if you have areally high bar and you only
bring excellent people, peoplewith excellent values, with
excellent experience, withexcellent networks, that makes
an excellent company.
It's kind of obvious, right,but?

(59:22):
But sometimes I made a mistakein the past of saying like oh
you know, I just need to getthis done right doesn't matter
that much, you know, becauseit's just like a transactional
thing.
But but no, like every personthat touches the company matters
a ton, and I think there is,you know, when you, when you're
starting a company like Pachamato me was like a very special

(59:47):
thing, you know, I felt like ahuge level of responsibility
creating this company for thisvery important mission.

Ariel Camus (59:57):
So I took very seriously that curation of the
people who were going to, youknow, help the company get
started and, and as a result ofthat, you know, things went um,
you could see the results and Ithink there is, like with
everything in life, there arevicious circles and and virtuous

(01:00:18):
circles, right, and when youwork on something you're super
passionate about, but also youwork on something that is super
important to the world and youdream big and you start choosing
the right investors, it allcontributes to create this
energy that, in the oppositeside, can be destructive energy,
right, if you don't have strongproduct market fit, however you

(01:00:41):
want to define that.
So you struggle to raisecapital but you still push
through, but you don't get asmany options to choose your
investors.
And then you get people who arelike kind of like lukewarm,
kind of like about your companyand investment, like it all kind
of cascades into like this,like decadence.
That never feels right and it'sa lot of wasted time and energy

(01:01:01):
.
But when it clicks right orwhen one thing becomes a spark
for this to become a virtualcircle, it's very magic and I
give a lot of credit to YC forthat.
And I think what they'vemanaged to do with Demo Day,
it's something amazing Havingpart of Demo Day, equivalent

(01:01:23):
events in other accelerators andand it's not the same thing and
it's again, it's because theyhave created a virtual circle
around, what the type of peoplethey bring, the type of people
they accept and how they coachthe people.
But somehow you get to the endof demo day and, like I remember
having like eight, nine, teninvestors around me pushing me
to take their money, to say like, yes, okay, I'll take 50K from

(01:01:45):
you.
I think I still have unreademails from investors that email
me offering money, saying Idon't even need a meeting with
you, like that was likeDisneyland for entrepreneurs and
and what it gives you, thisboost of confidence that then
allows you to then say I'm goingto pick my investors and and
then that becomes the virtualcircle, that that you are
describing, which is superinspiring.

(01:02:06):
But I think the essence of that, at the end of the day, it's
also your conviction and nothingbeats, I think, a big mission.
Uh, my company, micro, is yourcompany, but chama, we have
these like mission-drivencompanies that are super
powerful just because they're somission-driven.
Like was that?
Or how did that help you,especially in the early days?

(01:02:26):
Kind of like, you know, notjust attract investors but also
talent.
That initial team how was theprocess of curating that team
and using your mission as aweapon?

Diego Saez-Gil (01:02:36):
yeah, I.
That is the ultimate insight,which is that having a genuine,
because it has to be genuine youcannot fake this.
You shouldn't fake this.
If you have a genuine mission,that you are going after, a
mission that will make the worlda better place, that will make

(01:02:59):
humanity better off or theplanet better off, and you're
truly driven by that, people canread it, can see it and you're
building a company that is trulydirectly contributing to that.
Because sometimes there are somany situations where there's a
mission statement and then thebusiness model has nothing to do
with the mission statement.
But if there is that alignmentbetween mission and what you're

(01:03:21):
doing, that will be a superpowerthat will attract the best
investors, investors who alreadymade their money and therefore
they're successful and smart,and now they're focused on
impact.
They're focusing on what planetare they going to leave for
their children?
And, same with talent, you areable to attract people who have
already made a successful careerin tech or in, you know, other

(01:03:43):
companies and now, havingfulfilled all their basic maslow
pyramid needs, are, you know,looking for self-realization and
contribution and impact, andthese are the best people, right
?
So I think that truly, uh,being a, a mission-driven
company that has an importantmission and that you're truly

(01:04:04):
going after.
That is a superpower.

Ariel Camus (01:04:08):
It is a superpower indeed, and I'm super bullish
about that mission that you areworking so hard for.
So thank you so much forsharing everything you have to
share with us.
I look forward to continuingthe conversation another time,
but I hope that no, I don't hope.
I know you will be inspiring alot of future generations of

(01:04:29):
entrepreneurs with your story,so thank you again.

Diego Saez-Gil (01:04:32):
Thank you, Ariel , for the invite.

Ariel Camus (01:04:36):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Your support means the world tome.
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