September 9, 2024 • 52 mins
Timo Buetefisch is an entrepreneur like no other.
He's the founder of Cooltra and he is still running the company after 18 years.
Not only that, he's grown Cooltra "slow and steady" to over $50M in annual revenue over that period of time.
Learn how Cooltra grew from a humble bootstrap startup to a booming enterprise with 28,000 electric vehicles and 550 employees across nine countries.
In this episode, Timo also opens up about the biases entrepreneurs often face when forecasting revenue and the critical importance of maintaining realistic business plans. What if your entrepreneurial projections are setting you up for failure? Timo has been there and wants to prevent you from doing the same.
He discusses the evolution of Cooltra's business model, the strategic move into moped sharing in 2016, and the subsequent influx of equity funding that fueled their rapid expansion. Discover the teamwork and strategic choices that allowed Cooltra to thrive in a fiercely competitive market.
But it's not all business. Timo also opens up about the pressures of entrepreneurship and the impact of an intense work ethic on personal life, including his own. He reveals the vital role of peer learning networks in maintaining a work-life balance and long-term well-being.
This episode isn’t just about business growth; it's about surviving and thriving in the entrepreneurial world while keeping personal sanity intact. Tune in for an honest, insightful conversation that could reshape your entrepreneurial journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Timo Buetefisch (00:00):
Yes, the good thing is normally what happens.
You forget more of the badmoments and you remember the
good ones.
So it's a little bit the biaswhich helps us to always look
for there were many moments thatwere of difficulty.
Especially, what happens tomany entrepreneurs is that you
(00:20):
overestimate the revenuepotential Because you take it
more like an Excel exercise atthe beginning.
You make your numbers, youbuild your forecast and the
problem is reality normallydoesn't go that way that you hit
the revenue targets and costs.
On the other side, normally youdon't undergo, especially at
(00:43):
the beginning.
We didn't have 100% realisticbusiness plan.
It's also because somehow ithas to be.
You have to be optimistic.
So then the problem thistranslates into higher cash
needs.
If you don't hit the revenuetargets and you have higher
costs, that means you're runningout of liquidity.
These are the difficult momentswhen you're in this situation
(01:06):
and maybe you have raised aroundor debt facility and you think
your run rate was 18 months, butat the end it's only 11.
So you're constantly in thismode of raising money and not
reaching target targets.
Ariel Camus (01:30):
Welcome everyone, this is Ariel Camus, and this is
the only thing that matters thepodcast where I interview
successful founders todeconstruct their path to
product market fit and toextract for you the principles
and frameworks behind theirsuccess.
My guest today is , theco-founder and CEO of C, the
(01:52):
European leader in sustainablemobility solutions on two wheels
.
Since its founding in 2006,kultra has grown into a
powerhouse, with a fleet of over20,000 scooters operating in 24
locations across 8 countries.
The company offers short andlong-term moped rentals to both
(02:15):
B2C and B2B customers and haspioneered electric moped rentals
by the minutes in variousEuropean cities.
Rentals by the minutes invarious European cities.
Under Timo's leadership, kultrahas achieved remarkable
milestones, including a revenueof 45 million euros in 2023, an
EBITDA of 7 million euros andover 500 employees.
(02:37):
In this episode, we dive intoTimo's journey, from his early
days in Barcelona to buildingKultra into Europe's market
leader.
We discuss the evolution of thebusiness model, the challenges
of scaling an internationaloperation, the importance of
choosing the right investors,and the personal sacrifices and
learnings along the way With allof you Timo , hi Timo, thank
(03:05):
you so.
Hi Timo, thank you so much formaking the time for this.
Timo Buetefisch (03:08):
Yeah, what a pleasure.
Thank you to have you meetAriel.
Ariel Camus (03:13):
No, absolutely.
It's not every day that I getto connect with someone who has
been doing this for such a longtime, and especially with a
single company.
You have been leading Kultrafor 18 years and I can't wait to
hear the story of those 18years.
I can only imagine all the upsand downs, but I will.
(03:37):
I'll ask you a question that Iknow it's easy to find out there
the answer to it, but I thinkit makes sense to start there.
What is Kultra and where didthe idea for Kultra come from?
Timo Buetefisch (03:49):
Yes, we are a European leader in giving
mobility solutions in asustainable way on two wheels.
So this is our main focus.
We are basically acquiringe-bikes and e-mopeds and we make
them available for userspay-per-use, so by the minute,
(04:10):
by the day, by the week, byyears, even the companies or
residents that are renting forlong term.
We have both segments B2B andB2C.
We have both segments B2B andB2C 60% B2C, 40% B2B and we are
operational in nine countries.
(04:31):
By now, over these years, wehave a fleet of 28,000 vehicles.
This is the largest electricvehicle fleet in all Europe and,
yeah, we are around about 65million revenue, ebitda positive
.
We are three investors by nowand, yeah, I have a team of 550
(04:57):
people.
Ariel Camus (04:58):
It's rare to find a venture-backed company that has
achieved the size of Kultra.
That is also profitable, and ofcourse it's been a while, and
I'm not surprised that at thispoint you have reached
profitability, but it's not aneasy feat.
Timo Buetefisch (05:14):
No, not at all.
Where did the idea come from?
Ariel Camus (05:17):
No, I can't imagine .
Where did this come from?
Why did you decide to buildthis?
Why you?
Timo Buetefisch (05:22):
Yeah, maybe a little bit personal background.
I'm German but came toBarcelona in 2002 for an MBA at
Jese, started one business there.
I failed in the flower industry, had to go back to corporate
world.
But then in 2006, my personalmoped broke down.
(05:45):
So it really came out of apersonal experience or necessity
.
So I thought, wow, now as mymoped, my moto, is three weeks
in the workshop.
I got very used to ride amotorcycle in Barcelona.
I think it's an excellent meanof transportation door to door
quick.
Also, we have very good weatherhere.
(06:06):
So I thought, wow, it would begreat during this time if I can
rent.
And then I found out there arenot many places that are renting
motorbikes.
There were obviously car rentalcompanies or bike rental
companies, but nobody in themoped space.
So that's how it all startedfrom a personal need, we really
bootstrapped.
(06:26):
So we bought 25, first motorsand yeah, and then went building
the company step by step withvery little money at the
beginning that that's impressive, especially, I think, today,
it's easy to believe that, well,hey, there's nothing new about
this.
Ariel Camus (06:41):
There's are so many of these you know, like not
right-sharing, likeMuppet-sharing companies, but
you have probably been alone inthe market for a very long time,
can you, just so we understandthe industry, at which point, in
the last, I imagine, 10, 15years, did you start having like
significant competition, asmaybe there is today?
Timo Buetefisch (07:03):
Yes, I think what I have to explain first is
how we develop our businessmodel, because it's essential.
We really started off with astation-based brick-and-mortar
gasoline moped rental totourists.
So it is still part of ourstrategy right now, but the
company now, like I said, 95% ofrevenue is not doing that
(07:25):
anymore.
Right?
So we did really B2C rental totourists.
Now we are much more focused onB2B and B2C electric free flow.
So there has been a hugedevelopment.
No, so, and that means we alsohave different kind of
competitors.
No, and in my case, I see it alittle bit different, because
(07:48):
this whole trend of the industryand going in shared electric
mobility we are all growing themarket together.
It's not only like the mopedsharing people.
It's the same with e-bikesharing or kick scooter sharing
or ride hailing, you know, likeUber and Cabify or even public
transport.
So it's all about the mobilityplayers.
(08:09):
And I would say if I talk about, yeah, players in the market,
it's not necessarily my, let'ssay, direct competitors.
No, so, because what youattract is basically people that
need to move from A to B in acity and they have been doing
this with own vehicles or byother means.
(08:30):
What you try to attract thesepeople and shift.
It has been a behavioral shift.
When I started 18 years ago,let's say when I was younger,
people wanted really to own acar.
It was like a dream to buy acar and drive that.
No, that is by far not thedream of, let's say, generation
(08:51):
Z.
No, the kids now not the kids,but the young people.
What they want is basicallyaccess to mobility in an easy
way, not having necessarily theownership and paying per use.
So there's a whole.
In these 18 years, many, manybehavioral shifts have happened.
Ariel Camus (09:12):
I love that you're also talking about this and
talking about other players inthe market, as everyone
contributing to this vision formobility right, and that it's
much more sustainable.
Timo Buetefisch (09:23):
I think that's such a healthy way of operating,
but at the same time, I imagineI mean it's just a small thing,
but imagine we have now so manycars parked in the streets.
No, and cars are normallyprivate cars are parked like 98%
of the time.
It's not very efficient.
We could dedicate that spacefor parks or trees or pedestrian
(09:47):
area.
Light electric shared vehiclesis a really, really benefit for
all of us, not only in terms ofspace, in terms of pollution,
because it's zero emission, andobviously also noise is a
different aspect, because it'smore quiet.
So it's a very nice element inthis whole, let's say, greener
(10:12):
city.
Ariel Camus (10:14):
I share those values and that vision for the
world, but especially for a citylike Barcelona.
I think it's such a great placefor that vision to come true
and it's happening.
I love that you arecontributing to that a lot.
Um, I'm I'm a huge fan of like,you know, using kultra, uh,
using like like, not just themovements, but also the e-bikes,
(10:34):
uh, to move around it.
It's just an amazing way, it'ssuper fast.
Also like like, a huge fan here.
Yet, at the same time, as anentrepreneur, I can only imagine
, because of the length of thejourney for you as an
entrepreneur 18 years runningthis and the amount of players
in the market.
I was curious to ask you if youwere to describe the story of
(11:00):
Kultra through the moments ofcrisis, the moments where Kultra
could have died.
Could you tell us a few ofthose moments?
And you said, like, well, thatwas a very difficult moment and
share a few of them with us ifyou don't mind.
Timo Buetefisch (11:14):
Yes, the good thing is in normally what
happens, you forget more of thebad moments and you remember the
good ones.
So it's a little bit the biaswhich helps us to always look
forward.
No, honestly, like now lookingback, connecting the dots, I
always realize why things havebeen happening and after all,
(11:38):
now, like looking back, no, I'mreally really happy about the
journey Operationally.
Yes, there were many momentsthat were difficult, especially
what happens to manyentrepreneurs, I would say, when
you talk to people is that youoverestimate the revenue
(11:59):
potential because you take itmore like an Excel exercise at
the beginning.
You make your numbers, youbuild your forecast and the
problem is reality normallydoesn't go that way that you hit
the revenue targets and costs.
On the other side, normally youdon't undergo.
(12:21):
So you are always in this issue.
Especially at the beginning, wedidn't have 100% realistic
business plan.
It's also because somehow ithas to be, you have to be
optimistic.
So then the problem thistranslates into higher cash
needs.
So if you don't hit the revenuetargets and you have higher
(12:43):
costs, that means you're runningout of liquidity.
And these are the difficultmoments when you're in this
situation and maybe you haveraised around or debt facility
and you think your run rate was18 months, but at the end it's
only 11, right?
So you're constantly in thismode of raising money and not
(13:05):
reaching targets.
It's more like a stable companyNow.
We are able to really do goodforecasts and we rarely have
deviations of more than 10% inanything.
But at the beginning it's likea whole mess the financial
planning and treasury and sothat was really difficult and
that translates into problemsthat you then sometimes you
(13:28):
can't pay commitments you havegiven with providers or even
employees, and that's reallydifficult to manage.
And then the second thing isabout personal disappointments
on the way.
I mean, as you can imagine, notnecessarily with employees, but
with many other partners orpeople, but just your personal
(13:51):
perception was that the deal wasdone in a different way.
And yeah, you learn it also thehard way.
Important to make contracts,always with your shareholders,
with providers.
Leave things written in emailsor documents.
It's just.
I recommend it.
(14:12):
Even if it's so clear and youhave this, you think you have
the same understanding about atopic.
It helps so much.
I mean it's just, yeah, it'stough business, but it is good
to trust.
But it's also good to writethings down, fix things in
contracts, you know so it's alsoclear.
(14:33):
No, I mean I've heard about somany or I've personally
experienced so many situations.
No, where just the twocontractual parties have the
different understanding aboutthe same situation and it's just
so helpful to write things down, which is sometimes at the
beginning.
It's a little bit moreuncomfortable, right, it's
(14:55):
similar, it's a different story.
But if people get married, Iwould say it's not bad to have a
contract.
I mean it takes away theromanticism and the thing,
because obviously when you getmarried you think you will never
separate.
No, but how helpful it is tohave a contract in place.
(15:17):
But that's more like a privatetopic.
But in business, I highlyrecommend to do contracts and
leave things in a written formno, I I completely agree with
you.
Ariel Camus (15:30):
Um I.
There is this um person that Ireally admire he's the founder
of the conscious leadershipgroup uh jim dumbner.
He talks about the four pillarsof integrity which he borrowed
from other people.
He talks about these impeccablecommitments or agreements.
Right, like you know, you havewritten down who is going to do
what by then and you, you know,stay true to those commitments
(15:52):
90% of the time, like it seemsso obvious.
Yet on a marriage, you know,often we don't do it because,
well, what about, yeah, theromanticism?
But it's so much harder to findthese agreements in the moment
where things get hard.
It's so much easier to do themup front so that when things get
(16:13):
hard, you have a clear, youknow, navigational route to
follow.
And I think that applies to,like, co-founders as well to
business partners to clientslike transparency, it makes life
easier.
In my opinion, yes.
Timo Buetefisch (16:27):
And obviously it's a little bit.
You know it's sometimes morallymaybe it's difficult to sell
because at the beginningeverybody new partnerships, new
collaborations there's so muchenthusiasm but it's exactly on
the way.
Many things happen, no, and ingeneral, anticipation is very,
(16:48):
very necessary as anentrepreneur.
So you need to anticipate whatthings can happen and you need
to anticipate worst casescenarios and you need to have
cash for situations that thingsdon't work out.
So sometimes, even if we'rebuilding up new teams, we
sometimes hire a person extra.
You know why?
(17:08):
Because it can happen for manyreasons that, for example, you
need two new commercial people.
Right, and maybe it's better,instead of hiring two, hiring
three, because if they three dooutstanding performance, they
pay their salaries anyhow.
So you keep the three.
But my experience is often thatalso people after a few weeks
(17:32):
decide to leave for any reasonor you are not happy with
somebody.
So sometimes anticipation isnot bad.
Ariel Camus (17:39):
Absolutely, and, by the way, we cover a lot of
these principles and frameworksand rubrics that help us make
good decisions as entrepreneursin the podcast.
But I'm also a huge fan ofstories and I can imagine, with
18 years of journey, you haveplenty of those good decisions
as entrepreneurs in the podcast.
But I'm also a huge fan of ofstories and I can imagine, with
18 years of a journey, you haveplenty of those.
Uh, what's been the story ofthe moment that you might recall
(18:03):
having the biggest, you know,doubts about whether things were
going to work on or if you had,you know, enough energy to
continue what?
What's been the most difficultmoment in your story so far with
Clotra?
Timo Buetefisch (18:15):
Well, I think it was after two or three years
when we saw that scaling up.
I think we opened Valencia,mallorca, next to Barcelona, as
new locations and things didn'twork out as planned, because
opening new locations is alwaysdifficult finding places,
(18:36):
finding people, findingcustomers so it took us much
longer.
No, so we are running out ofcash in difficult times.
No, so we have to scale downagain and somehow get more money
on board.
Do discounts to customers?
Yeah, really manage the cash.
Managing the cash is so key.
(18:59):
At the beginning of the venture, you shouldn't look at profit
or loss.
You should only look at yourbank statement, what has
happened, because that's at theend, it's the most important
thing that you don't run out ofcash, because people don't run
out of business because they dolosses, it's more because they
run out of cash.
Ariel Camus (19:19):
It's very important , absolutely.
You mentioned that you startedbootstrapping.
At what point did you startusing external capital to run
the business?
Timo Buetefisch (19:32):
Yeah, that was after one year of business.
So we started the company in2006, in March, and we did a
full year of like an MVP.
So we did like a product marketfit exercise.
So we bought mopeds, we renteda small garage.
Mopeds we we bought, we renteda small garage.
(19:56):
We we basically rented throughchannels that were easy to
manage, like flyering, goinginto hotels, uh, tourist office
building a very simple web page,um, for example.
Back then the the apps didn'texist yet, no, so they're
different.
There was no instagram, right,for example, or tiktok, so
channels of commercializationwere different, but we basically
managed to.
I think we reached in the firstyear 100,000 euros in revenue
(20:21):
and, yeah, we lost some money,but in general, we did like a
proof of concept, right, sothere was people that were
willing to pay for our service.
That was the summer of 2006.
And then we prepared a pitchdeck and in February 2007, so 11
months later we closed thefirst round with four business
(20:42):
agents.
Ariel Camus (20:42):
And if you were to look at the revenue curve of
Kultra, is there any specificmoment in its history where
something changed?
That was like a big inflectionpoint?
Timo Buetefisch (20:55):
Yes, there were several.
It was mainly when we changedbusiness models.
At one moment, we openedourselves up to long-term rental
, both for B2B and B2C.
That was a very positive impact.
And then in 2016, we opened upthe sharing.
So we were pioneers in that.
We basically started inBarcelona with 250 shared mopeds
(21:17):
and there we went really.
We changed also investmentstrategy, but there was a moment
where I raised more than 50million euros in equity and we
really went all in.
You know, we knew we had to gofast.
So we did a completelydifferent growth path.
So it was much more about hypergrowth, growing fast time to
(21:38):
market, spending a lot of moneyon marketing.
So it was like a completelydifferent growth story.
That was 2016.
Ariel Camus (21:48):
Did that require, I imagine, a big shift in the
culture of the company, but alsoin you as a leader of the
company.
How did that look like?
Timo Buetefisch (21:57):
Yeah, no different way of less control,
no more delegation.
Yeah, hiring more people Idon't know.
Sometimes we hired, like Idon't know, 200 people a year.
So that is really a lot.
So you double the workforce.
So that is really a lot.
So you double the workforce.
So that's really complex.
You don't have the systems inplace and many things go wrong,
(22:21):
but you're less efficient.
Then the more money you have,the less efficient you are.
But it's part of the game.
If you want to really build ina highly competitive environment
, you need to go fast sometimesand acquire customers.
So that's what basicallyhappened.
Now we are more in aconsolidation phase.
So, for example, in Barcelonafour years ago we were 23
(22:44):
competitors in Mopped Share.
Now we are left with threeStrongly consolidated market.
So now you look much more underoptimizing cost, giving better
customer attention.
So you are much more detailedoriented.
You change, you turn thesmaller screws.
It's not like building a bigmachine, you just we're now more
(23:06):
in an optimization mode.
Ariel Camus (23:09):
Going from such a crowded, fragmented market to
three, and you and Kultra beingone of the few ones you know
standing.
What was the thing that allowyou, or the things that allow
you, to be among the few onesthat are still here today
helping with the consolidationof the industry?
Timo Buetefisch (23:27):
Yeah, no, it's definitely the people I mean
mean it sounds so strange, butit is what it is.
We had ample experience.
So when we entered that market,we were already 10 years doing
this thing, so we had reallyextensive experience in managing
fleets, in working as a team.
(23:48):
Other people went in and theybuilt, like, in very, very short
timeframe, everything fromscratch.
No, we were building it over along period of time now and,
yeah, I think, being very muchinvolved and very caring about
details and making it work andalso aligning the different
(24:09):
levels of the company no,employees, management, team
shareholders in this same visionhelped a lot.
I think, luckily or not, orcall it also working well as a
team was very, very important.
We had access to capital,that's true, but many others had
(24:29):
as well, so that was not thedifferentiator.
Also, at one moment, we took avery important decision to
in-house technology.
So when we started off, webasically outsourced technology.
We used SaaS right, and thatwas great because it helped us
to go very quickly time tomarket.
But now in the consolidationgame and differentiation game to
(24:51):
competitors, it's veryimportant to own the technology
roadmap.
So that was a key change in ourstrategy.
Six years ago we had maybethree developers.
Now we have a team of 40.
So we invested heavily in ourown technology.
Ariel Camus (25:06):
That makes a lot of sense.
What is an example of somethingthat maybe a new player and of
course, we don't really knoweverything going on inside other
companies, but what issomething that you know happened
?
Maybe that a competitor didwith less experience, even if
they had the same or more cash.
That, from your perspective,was a mistake that you were able
(25:28):
to avoid because of yourexperience of many years.
Timo Buetefisch (25:31):
Yeah, no selection of assets.
For example, the product no.
So if you look at players, whatkind of mopeds they're using?
No, it reflects sometimes thatthey have no too little
experience in terms of sourcingno, that is an example.
Then, for example, reliabilityof service no, because our
(25:52):
service is quite complex.
No, you have to register via anapp, leave your driver's
license, load up your creditcard and then find the moped
started, get the helmets out ofthe box, take pictures at the
end no, and all these things arehappening at the same time, so
you can't't fail on any of thesecomponents of the mixture
(26:15):
between the hardware, thesoftware, the customer service.
So I think we found a goodbalance in managing all the
different variables, and that'snot evident, I would say not so
easy, and that's something thatKultra does.
I would say we give veryreliable service, we have good
(26:35):
customer attention service, andthat helps definitely to survive
.
Ariel Camus (26:45):
And I imagine having to deliver a product that
depends on hardware, like amoped.
It means things are much morecapital intensive, so mistakes
are also more expensive.
Was there any mistake in theearly days, where the cost was
high but also the lessonslearned were also important for
(27:05):
the future?
Timo Buetefisch (27:06):
Yeah, many times.
Sometimes we invested inhardware.
It's exactly that case, ariel.
As you say, you buy a hugefleet of I don't know 1,000
units.
You see it after a few monthsand then you're stuck with this
vehicle for many years.
You can't get rid of it.
These are mistakes we committedduring the early years.
(27:28):
Nevertheless, now we are veryhighly integrated with the
manufacturers.
We do a lot of testing, and sonow when we launch new products
on the hardware side, it's muchmore tested.
No, but it's a big issue.
No, and it's exactly that.
If you ask me, one of thereasons why CityScooter that was
(27:49):
our main competitor in Pariswent into bankruptcy and stalled
and didn't continue wasdefinitely their asset, the
selection of the hardware, whichI don't think was satisfactory.
But companies or competitorshave failed for many, many other
(28:09):
reasons.
Ariel Camus (28:10):
I can't imagine in in which ways, for example,
customer service for somethingwhere you are relying on a
vehicle to take you from point ato point b, yeah, can create a
lot of dissatisfaction if itdoesn't work well or if you're
not responsive enough, andcustomer opinion, especially in
the market with alternativeoptions, uh, that can, that can
(28:31):
definitely kill a business.
So, yeah, how, in which wayshave?
This is way less about thecompany, it's more about you.
Like, in which ways have youchanged or have how Kultra have
has changed who you are as aperson because of all this
journey for 18 years?
Timo Buetefisch (28:48):
now I've grown a lot.
No, when I, when I founded thecompany, I was 32, now I'm 50,
so it's a whole.
It has happened many, manythings.
I would say I was prepared tolead the company at the
beginning.
You do a complete learningprocess, especially through
managing people, managingsituations every day.
(29:10):
By looking what you've done,right or wrong, reflecting,
doing feedback loops.
You get basically betterprepared for difficult
situations.
The thing is, the bigger theorganization and the higher you
are, it's also the more complexsituation you're confronted with
(29:34):
.
Right, I would say, in terms ofI have very, very good managers
, so most of the decisions aremanaged by my team.
Right, so on my test, mainlylearn things that are very
complex.
No, so it's also quitechallenging always, because
sometimes I would love to handlealso sometimes situations.
(29:56):
But it's a little bit like thegreat privilege, but also a
little bit the challenge for aCEO, because normally you are
confronted with things that arequite complex in nature, which
is mainly related to people.
Ariel Camus (30:14):
People is always the hardest part.
Timo Buetefisch (30:16):
But yeah, we're doing a good job.
I think we're reallytransparent.
We say things as they are andif we identify issues, we try to
put them on the table.
So I think we have quite a goodculture in that sense.
Ariel Camus (30:32):
For someone who is starting the journey?
Yeah, do you think that it'sabout like you need to have
already this innate ability tolearn fast and adapt, or is
there any technique, any tool,any system that you have used to
help you learn and grow as fastas needed for the company?
Timo Buetefisch (30:54):
No, first of all, I think there's no one that
is more qualified or less fromthis, Because I've seen so
successful entrepreneurs withvery different profiles,
personality traits andcharacteristics.
They're more introverts or moreanalytics, more marketers, more
(31:15):
visionaries, more executors.
So I have.
The thing is it's always greatno to what you're not good at to
find complementary people.
No, so basically, what you tryis to complement and compensate
the things that you are not sogreat at.
No, so that is something youlearn.
Compensate the things that youare not so great at.
So that is something you learnon the way.
(31:36):
So you try to get people thatare compensating you, because if
you are not so good, maybe withexcellent numbers, it's great
to have somebody in the teamthat does it and is very
supportive.
If anybody is more, let's say,creative or less creative, then
it's great to have thecounterpart.
You know and um, so that thatis something that helps
(31:58):
tremendously.
You know, because you, yourealize you know, if there's a
size of like 50 people, acompany, 50 or more or even less
, you know, then it's justimpossible to do it all yourself
.
So you need the good peoplearound you and listen and keep
your eyes open and try to beflexible.
(32:20):
I would say the older you get,the less flexible you are.
So that's why I think startingbusiness between 25 and 35 is
great, because also youropportunity costs are lower, so
you're not so worried about whathappens if you fail.
So there's never a perfect age,obviously, but I think being
(32:46):
younger, a little bit morefoolish, a little bit more
risk-seeking is really great,because with the time you get
more and more you learn fromexperiences and you get a little
bit maybe more conservative.
No, yeah, it's just how thingsdevelop.
Ariel Camus (33:03):
What I'm hearing is that anyone can do it and can
be successful.
Obviously, you haven't saidthis, but probably you will
agree that there is a bigcomponent of timing that can
play a huge role and lackwhatever you want to call it,
but that, at the end of the day,it's about experience.
It's about doing it and doingit while learning.
(33:26):
What are you good at, what areyou bad at Delegating, what
you're not good at you good at,what are you bad at delegating
when you're not good at?
And the younger you are, themore likely is that you will
have the environment where youcan make tons of those mistakes
at a low cost for your lifeoverall, which gives you this
place to fail, fail, fail, learn, learn, learn, so that the
(33:47):
older you get, the moreexperiences you have to become
the best you know, perfectperson for the business and what
is also great.
Timo Buetefisch (33:54):
Just one comment on this is it's like,
from a life perspective, no, Iwould say big learning is, and
never put all like all the focusonly on the business.
You know it's like veryimportant.
Besides the business, always,no also construct other elements
like keep your body strong, eathealthy, sleep enough, build
(34:16):
solid relationships with friendsor partners, do sports, because
you have to see it that way,there's a huge risk of getting
so obsessed by business I'vepersonally done it and I see it
and the problem is then thenimagine then it fails, then you
have nothing to know, otherpillars, but I mean, it seems so
(34:40):
obvious, but it's definitely anerror which I committed,
because you think like you haveto give everything to make this
work, which is great also, butit's also dangerous.
Ariel Camus (34:54):
What was the moment where that happened to you and
how did you realize that thatwas not a sustainable path?
Timo Buetefisch (35:01):
I went through a divorce, for example, because
I didn't the heavy price I paidon that.
That was in the early days.
It's never the only reason, no,for separation, but definitely
I was working like hell, youknow, so it wasn't easy, no, so
that was a very, very hardexperience for me was, but yeah
(35:24):
things happen for a reason andthen you compensate and you meet
a new partner.
So life goes on.
No, but it definitely was alearning.
It was just.
I mean, it happens in differentways.
Maybe other people then don'tcare about their health, which
is even worse, you know, becausethey work so much and drink
only coffee, you know, and don'tsleep.
(35:45):
I know how it is, because youget so obsessed by this idea and
it's so important to keep theseother pillars alive.
Ariel Camus (35:54):
Yeah, and if things don't go so well, you have a
lot of work to do and morechances of if you don't have
other pillars, then not havinganything left.
But if things go really well,you also have a lot of reasons
to do a lot of work.
So there's only reasons to domore work, and always unlimited
work.
You have to put the limits.
(36:14):
In your case, was the divorceon its own one of these wake-up
moments of something had tochange on your side?
Timo Buetefisch (36:23):
Yes, the thing is also, with the time I'm now
18 years things don't get betterin terms of how much the
business requires from you.
I mean, the's really, reallydifficult, the challenges are
different, but the stressdoesn't leave.
So, because sometimes I feelpeople think OK, we start a
(36:44):
business, you know, and then,for example, after closing the
first financing round, thingsare done.
No, it's when it all starts,you know, and that's just
another learning.
No, it is a fucking marathon.
So it is really hard.
No, you have to train hard andit's a long-term race every time
(37:07):
.
No, it's also good to realize,because success will never
happen.
It happens sometimes.
Some people build an amazingbusiness and then after two
years they sell.
But let me tell you that islike 1% of the startup world.
Most of the cases are long-termgains, and that is assuming
(37:29):
that selling is your definitionof success right.
Ariel Camus (37:32):
Exactly I can imagine yeah, not necessarily
something that will contributeto your happiness, even though
everyone would love to sell youknow, a company after two years
for millions, but it might notnecessarily make you happy.
And I love something you said.
I think it's such a practicalinsight and it is to remind
(37:55):
yourself that most likely theamount of work and stress will
only go up.
So if you're trying to justifyhow you're living your life
right now for the businessbecause you think it's just a
momentary thing, it will onlyget worse, so you better put
limits right now.
How, how are you able to changethat?
Because it sounds easier, youknow, said than done, and I can
(38:17):
imagine how you know a divorceand a wake-up moment like that
can force us to say somethinghas to change.
But how were you able to changecompletely the way you were
approaching this balance?
Timo Buetefisch (38:29):
It's very good to have peers.
My learning and my coachingover these years has been done a
lot by other entrepreneurs.
I'm in a forum and you know,like this, like this forum
format and with 10 otherentrepreneurs, and we have been
meeting since 15 years, everyevery month.
(38:52):
So we are sharing experiences.
It's like a it's you know, it'sa little bit like a how do you
say it Anonymous alcoholics.
It's like a little bit asentrepreneurs that we have been
for the last 15 years sharingexperiences.
So that has been, it has been apeer group.
I highly recommend peer learningbecause sometimes the true
(39:18):
pains and challenges that youlive as an entrepreneur few
people can understand.
It's very hard to explain toyour mother, very hard to
explain to your life partner oralso people that have corporate
jobs, because it's just notcomparable, right.
So peer learning is verypowerful.
So there are many ways of doingthis.
No Like meeting for lunch withother entrepreneurs, listening
(39:41):
to podcasts, going toentrepreneurs events and
building this community, becauseI felt it's very powerful, the
sharing with other people thatgo a similar way.
So that has helped me a lot.
Ariel Camus (39:53):
Reflect honestly that's so amazing, it's such an
important piece of advice and Iwould say especially, it really
doesn't matter the size but, Ithink, the quality of those
connections and for it to be aplace where you can actually be
vulnerable, where you don't needto show what probably you need
to show every day at work, whichis that you are the rock.
(40:14):
You know that you will neverhave doubts about things like
that is a very dangerous path Ifyou have to play the role every
single day, every single moment.
So having people that that canshare those the joys too, but
also the sorrows, in avulnerable way seems like such
an important way to get balance.
And coming from someone thathas been doing this for so long,
(40:34):
I'm pretty sure it's it's.
Timo Buetefisch (40:37):
You know it's signed, that it actually works
yeah, I mean, let me give herelike three practical devices.
There are three groups that Ilike that work in this system.
One is the Entrepreneurs'Organization.
It's called EO.
It's an American institutionthat have different chapters and
they do this forum learning.
There's another one, it'scalled Vistage, works the same
(41:00):
way and there is a no Bullbullshit network here in
barcelona.
So all these are based they'rekind of similar um in the idea
of sharing between otherentrepreneurs.
But it is, it is.
It's quite uh cool huh.
So any of these three maybecould be of interest to other.
(41:20):
Thank you, you.
Ariel Camus (41:21):
Thank you for sharing that.
I'll make sure to put this inthe notes of the episode.
And also a big shout out toJorge, who is running no
Bullshit.
I think he's doing an amazingjob at precisely creating this
type of tight-knit, high-qualityvulnerable communities.
It's not easy to do it and he'sclearly doing a good job there.
How have you balancedvulnerable communities?
(41:44):
It's not easy to do it andshe's clearly doing a good job
there.
How have you balanced this needto take care of yourself, your
team, the business, theshareholders, but also balance
that with the pressures, theneeds, the incentives of the
venture capital side of things?
It's amazing that you haveachieved the size you have today
and you have achieved, you know, this like solid EBITDA.
You know profitable company.
(42:05):
What did that look like?
You know the journey in yourrelationship with your venture
capitalists.
Timo Buetefisch (42:11):
Yeah, no, very good question.
Also, I think the firstlearning is here for different
phases of the business.
You need different how do yousay it?
Compañeros de viaje, no, Peoplethat share the trip with you,
no.
So I think it's great at thebeginning to have really more
(42:33):
this informal investors,business angels, friends and
family.
You know you need quickly takemoney.
You probably don't have inplace a strong financial
reporting etc.
No, then there comes a phasewhere you start contacting like
seed uh, seed funds.
(42:53):
You know that put 50k, 100k.
They do also what they.
They don't get very involved inthe business.
They spread money, they investin 200 companies, take 100K,
hopefully it works.
They play lottery.
So that's the kind of investorthat will get very low minority
etc.
And then you move up the ladderand people.
(43:15):
Then you get into VC.
People do tickets of 5 million,10 million.
I have now two family officesas shareholders that put more
than 50 million in the company.
So this means they have bigtickets, they get involved.
So they are there for the longrun.
(43:36):
They want to support you, butthey also want to have a say in
the business, right, Becausewith these amounts of money they
don't give it away withouttaking control.
So, yeah, that is it.
It was just I wanted to makethat intro because sometimes
people don't have clear whichkind of investors you need at
(43:59):
which stage.
It really depends a lot on thestage of your Now, with these
family offices that we have inthe company, it's really these
people.
They take an active role in theway on the board level, not on
the management level.
They understand clearly there'sa difference between investors
(44:23):
and management Very important.
So there's some decisions whichhave to be taken on board level
strategic budget financing, newconstitutions, new countries
right, these are the strategiclevels that happen on board.
And then there are day-to-daytask management, running the
business, which is management.
(44:44):
So, yeah, there are all kindsof tools that regulate that.
No, so we have quarterly boardmeetings, we have quarterly
reports, we have monthly updatecalls.
So we have like a rhythmestablished which we defined as
like the rules of workingtogether.
(45:04):
No, yeah, and that works prettywell.
It helps also now in thesetimes to meet at least once a
year, you know, in physicalpresence, where we spend like
two days together.
It's very important to connectand build trust over the
personal meetings.
But otherwise, we establishedsome rules of working together.
(45:27):
They delegate very much to me,but I feel still especially I
personally feel a lot ofresponsibility because at the
end I manage their money.
So it's not easy, but ingeneral, the more experienced
(45:48):
investors are, the more coolthey are also facing difficult
situations because they haveseen it.
They know that many things willhappen and things go wrong, so
that is also great to havepeople on board Now in family
office.
Many times they're realentrepreneurs.
You know that, have beenrunning businesses and now they
(46:10):
are taking money to invest inother entrepreneurs, so it's a
really cool investor type.
Ariel Camus (46:17):
Highly recommendable.
Have you had any moment or anypartner where, like they were,
for example, pushing for growthand you were saying I think it's
a moment to focus onprofitability, for example?
Timo Buetefisch (46:29):
yeah, um, it's.
It's a little bit the other wayaround.
In our case, it was more likeus wanting to grow a little bit
more and then there was morelike the like, the voice or the
news on, well, let's say, theposition on the board level from
investors.
Hey, no, I mean because rightnow, the last three, four years,
we all know it has been reallyuncertain, I mean, if I compare
(46:53):
to before covid, and inuncertain environments sometimes
it's better not to spend, youknow, and managing the risk.
No, and this is a little bithow we grow.
Also, now we're probably not sohyper growth oriented anymore.
No, we want solid growth, 20,30 percent per year, going in a
solid uh space, no pace.
(47:15):
So it has been more like, also,investors, really, really, um,
making sure we'reself-sustainable, you know, like
in case another crisis hits no,which we hope happens.
Ariel Camus (47:30):
Winding the wheel sooner or later.
Timo Buetefisch (47:31):
Hopefully not no, but then we are still there,
you know, and survive.
We survived COVID, we survivedthe Ukraine crisis and now high
inflation.
So, yeah, it hasn't been easyand in these times sometimes
it's better to be a little bitmore reluctant on growth and a
little bit more risk averse.
(47:52):
I mean, cash is king.
If you have now access to moneyand have an EBITDA positive
company, you're in a very, verypositive situation, so don't put
that at risk necessarily.
Ariel Camus (48:07):
Absolutely.
Do you think that the fact thatyou chose to work with family
offices that invest their ownmoney had anything to do with
this more baby balance approachand not just focus on growth
than if you had gone with aninstitutional VC?
Yes, yes because was that an?
Timo Buetefisch (48:24):
intentional decision.
No, you know, it's likesometimes you don't know why
things happen, but now andlooking back, I think it was
very positive.
No, there's a huge difference.
No, in the VC game, compared toa family is exactly like to say
normally these are other peoplethat manage the money.
You know, it's more like aprincipal and agent thing.
Right?
So the vc managers are moreagents and they are not
(48:47):
necessarily there for the longrun because they change
positions often.
No, so sometimes you havedifferent board members, no,
with less experience.
No and um.
And it's also the investmentstrategy.
A VC fund definitely wants toexit after five or seven years.
This is the way to make moneyfor them.
They want to exit.
(49:08):
A family office can be moreopportunistic.
They can say, hey, we want tobe there in the long run.
We want to be moreopportunistic.
Dividend play Maybe we do anIPO, maybe we do an exit, maybe
we sell to a strategic player,maybe we sell to a PE.
So there are more options.
So it's a more open play andVCs take more risk.
(49:34):
I would say so if you look atthe risk profile, because a VC
normally has more investmentsthan a family office.
So they could more.
They want more return, so theyneed to take more risk.
So that takes the founders.
No, for us founders a differentgame, because it's our own and
(49:54):
and only asset, right.
So maybe we see, sometimes takeyou on a ride.
That is not necessarily theright for you, but yeah, it's
obvious but sometimes it's goodto share the obvious.
Ariel Camus (50:08):
I don't think it's obvious for someone who is
starting and is taking venturecapital and might not be aware
of this which there is nothingwrong with this right, like it's
just understanding theincentives and deciding if
they're aligned or not.
And if they're not, well, justknow that that might create
certain you know conflicts thatyou will have to overcome and
that that, as long as that's achoice and not something we do,
(50:31):
you know, without intending it,I think that that's fine.
It's a pattern that I've seenlately in many conversations.
The the family office route, Ithink it's a less common or less
known one, but assuming youfind what you said a family
office that actually hasexperience, that is aligned,
that understands the divisionbetween management and
(50:54):
governance of the board, I dothink that can be a great way,
because they're investing theirown money, which resembles a
little bit more your incentivesas a founder, because you're
managing just your one company,which is probably where most of
your net worth is concentrated.
So it's a better alignment ofincentives, I guess.
Timo Buetefisch (51:12):
Well.
Ariel Camus (51:12):
Timo, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for sharing.
I think it's been a relativelyshort amount of time, but packed
with so many insights and tipsand advice.
I look forward to sharing thejourney with you in the upcoming
years.
I look forward to maybe doinganother one and seeing where
things are.
But, thank you for everythingyou've done today.
Timo Buetefisch (51:35):
No, thank you Ariel.
You can see your experience andvery empathetic interviewer, so
congratulations also.
Thanks a lot, I've been apleasure and I'm also available
for the listeners of thispodcast.
If you want to contact me, findme on LinkedIn Timo Kultra.
(51:56):
I'm always there to help otherentrepreneurs.
Ariel Camus (51:59):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much for doingthat and I'm sure I will connect
with you as a peer at somepoint to get some advice and
support, because we all need it,thank you.
Thank you, artimo, great havingyou.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Your support means the world tome.
(52:21):
If you enjoyed today's episode,please consider subscribing and
leaving a review.
It's one of the best ways youcan help this podcast get off
the ground and help moreentrepreneurs like you.
Thank you and until the nextepisode, thank you.
Yes, the good thing is normally what happens.
You forget more of the badmoments and you remember the
good ones.
So it's a little bit the biaswhich helps us to always look
for there were many moments thatwere of difficulty.
Especially, what happens tomany entrepreneurs is that you
(00:20):
overestimate the revenuepotential Because you take it
more like an Excel exercise atthe beginning.
You make your numbers, youbuild your forecast and the
problem is reality normallydoesn't go that way that you hit
the revenue targets and costs.
On the other side, normally youdon't undergo, especially at
(00:43):
the beginning.
We didn't have 100% realisticbusiness plan.
It's also because somehow ithas to be.
You have to be optimistic.
So then the problem thistranslates into higher cash
needs.
If you don't hit the revenuetargets and you have higher
costs, that means you're runningout of liquidity.
These are the difficult momentswhen you're in this situation
(01:06):
and maybe you have raised aroundor debt facility and you think
your run rate was 18 months, butat the end it's only 11.
So you're constantly in thismode of raising money and not
reaching target targets.
Ariel Camus (01:30):
Welcome everyone, this is Ariel Camus, and this is
the only thing that matters thepodcast where I interview
successful founders todeconstruct their path to
product market fit and toextract for you the principles
and frameworks behind theirsuccess.
My guest today is , theco-founder and CEO of C, the
(01:52):
European leader in sustainablemobility solutions on two wheels
.
Since its founding in 2006,kultra has grown into a
powerhouse, with a fleet of over20,000 scooters operating in 24
locations across 8 countries.
The company offers short andlong-term moped rentals to both
(02:15):
B2C and B2B customers and haspioneered electric moped rentals
by the minutes in variousEuropean cities.
Rentals by the minutes invarious European cities.
Under Timo's leadership, kultrahas achieved remarkable
milestones, including a revenueof 45 million euros in 2023, an
EBITDA of 7 million euros andover 500 employees.
(02:37):
In this episode, we dive intoTimo's journey, from his early
days in Barcelona to buildingKultra into Europe's market
leader.
We discuss the evolution of thebusiness model, the challenges
of scaling an internationaloperation, the importance of
choosing the right investors,and the personal sacrifices and
learnings along the way With allof you Timo , hi Timo, thank
(03:05):
you so.
Hi Timo, thank you so much formaking the time for this.
Timo Buetefisch (03:08):
Yeah, what a pleasure.
Thank you to have you meetAriel.
Ariel Camus (03:13):
No, absolutely.
It's not every day that I getto connect with someone who has
been doing this for such a longtime, and especially with a
single company.
You have been leading Kultrafor 18 years and I can't wait to
hear the story of those 18years.
I can only imagine all the upsand downs, but I will.
(03:37):
I'll ask you a question that Iknow it's easy to find out there
the answer to it, but I thinkit makes sense to start there.
What is Kultra and where didthe idea for Kultra come from?
Timo Buetefisch (03:49):
Yes, we are a European leader in giving
mobility solutions in asustainable way on two wheels.
So this is our main focus.
We are basically acquiringe-bikes and e-mopeds and we make
them available for userspay-per-use, so by the minute,
(04:10):
by the day, by the week, byyears, even the companies or
residents that are renting forlong term.
We have both segments B2B andB2C.
We have both segments B2B andB2C 60% B2C, 40% B2B and we are
operational in nine countries.
(04:31):
By now, over these years, wehave a fleet of 28,000 vehicles.
This is the largest electricvehicle fleet in all Europe and,
yeah, we are around about 65million revenue, ebitda positive
.
We are three investors by nowand, yeah, I have a team of 550
(04:57):
people.
Ariel Camus (04:58):
It's rare to find a venture-backed company that has
achieved the size of Kultra.
That is also profitable, and ofcourse it's been a while, and
I'm not surprised that at thispoint you have reached
profitability, but it's not aneasy feat.
Timo Buetefisch (05:14):
No, not at all.
Where did the idea come from?
Ariel Camus (05:17):
No, I can't imagine .
Where did this come from?
Why did you decide to buildthis?
Why you?
Timo Buetefisch (05:22):
Yeah, maybe a little bit personal background.
I'm German but came toBarcelona in 2002 for an MBA at
Jese, started one business there.
I failed in the flower industry, had to go back to corporate
world.
But then in 2006, my personalmoped broke down.
(05:45):
So it really came out of apersonal experience or necessity
.
So I thought, wow, now as mymoped, my moto, is three weeks
in the workshop.
I got very used to ride amotorcycle in Barcelona.
I think it's an excellent meanof transportation door to door
quick.
Also, we have very good weatherhere.
(06:06):
So I thought, wow, it would begreat during this time if I can
rent.
And then I found out there arenot many places that are renting
motorbikes.
There were obviously car rentalcompanies or bike rental
companies, but nobody in themoped space.
So that's how it all startedfrom a personal need, we really
bootstrapped.
(06:26):
So we bought 25, first motorsand yeah, and then went building
the company step by step withvery little money at the
beginning that that's impressive, especially, I think, today,
it's easy to believe that, well,hey, there's nothing new about
this.
Ariel Camus (06:41):
There's are so many of these you know, like not
right-sharing, likeMuppet-sharing companies, but
you have probably been alone inthe market for a very long time,
can you, just so we understandthe industry, at which point, in
the last, I imagine, 10, 15years, did you start having like
significant competition, asmaybe there is today?
Timo Buetefisch (07:03):
Yes, I think what I have to explain first is
how we develop our businessmodel, because it's essential.
We really started off with astation-based brick-and-mortar
gasoline moped rental totourists.
So it is still part of ourstrategy right now, but the
company now, like I said, 95% ofrevenue is not doing that
(07:25):
anymore.
Right?
So we did really B2C rental totourists.
Now we are much more focused onB2B and B2C electric free flow.
So there has been a hugedevelopment.
No, so, and that means we alsohave different kind of
competitors.
No, and in my case, I see it alittle bit different, because
(07:48):
this whole trend of the industryand going in shared electric
mobility we are all growing themarket together.
It's not only like the mopedsharing people.
It's the same with e-bikesharing or kick scooter sharing
or ride hailing, you know, likeUber and Cabify or even public
transport.
So it's all about the mobilityplayers.
(08:09):
And I would say if I talk about, yeah, players in the market,
it's not necessarily my, let'ssay, direct competitors.
No, so, because what youattract is basically people that
need to move from A to B in acity and they have been doing
this with own vehicles or byother means.
(08:30):
What you try to attract thesepeople and shift.
It has been a behavioral shift.
When I started 18 years ago,let's say when I was younger,
people wanted really to own acar.
It was like a dream to buy acar and drive that.
No, that is by far not thedream of, let's say, generation
(08:51):
Z.
No, the kids now not the kids,but the young people.
What they want is basicallyaccess to mobility in an easy
way, not having necessarily theownership and paying per use.
So there's a whole.
In these 18 years, many, manybehavioral shifts have happened.
Ariel Camus (09:12):
I love that you're also talking about this and
talking about other players inthe market, as everyone
contributing to this vision formobility right, and that it's
much more sustainable.
Timo Buetefisch (09:23):
I think that's such a healthy way of operating,
but at the same time, I imagineI mean it's just a small thing,
but imagine we have now so manycars parked in the streets.
No, and cars are normallyprivate cars are parked like 98%
of the time.
It's not very efficient.
We could dedicate that spacefor parks or trees or pedestrian
(09:47):
area.
Light electric shared vehiclesis a really, really benefit for
all of us, not only in terms ofspace, in terms of pollution,
because it's zero emission, andobviously also noise is a
different aspect, because it'smore quiet.
So it's a very nice element inthis whole, let's say, greener
(10:12):
city.
Ariel Camus (10:14):
I share those values and that vision for the
world, but especially for a citylike Barcelona.
I think it's such a great placefor that vision to come true
and it's happening.
I love that you arecontributing to that a lot.
Um, I'm I'm a huge fan of like,you know, using kultra, uh,
using like like, not just themovements, but also the e-bikes,
(10:34):
uh, to move around it.
It's just an amazing way, it'ssuper fast.
Also like like, a huge fan here.
Yet, at the same time, as anentrepreneur, I can only imagine
, because of the length of thejourney for you as an
entrepreneur 18 years runningthis and the amount of players
in the market.
I was curious to ask you if youwere to describe the story of
(11:00):
Kultra through the moments ofcrisis, the moments where Kultra
could have died.
Could you tell us a few ofthose moments?
And you said, like, well, thatwas a very difficult moment and
share a few of them with us ifyou don't mind.
Timo Buetefisch (11:14):
Yes, the good thing is in normally what
happens, you forget more of thebad moments and you remember the
good ones.
So it's a little bit the biaswhich helps us to always look
forward.
No, honestly, like now lookingback, connecting the dots, I
always realize why things havebeen happening and after all,
(11:38):
now, like looking back, no, I'mreally really happy about the
journey Operationally.
Yes, there were many momentsthat were difficult, especially
what happens to manyentrepreneurs, I would say, when
you talk to people is that youoverestimate the revenue
(11:59):
potential because you take itmore like an Excel exercise at
the beginning.
You make your numbers, youbuild your forecast and the
problem is reality normallydoesn't go that way that you hit
the revenue targets and costs.
On the other side, normally youdon't undergo.
(12:21):
So you are always in this issue.
Especially at the beginning, wedidn't have 100% realistic
business plan.
It's also because somehow ithas to be, you have to be
optimistic.
So then the problem thistranslates into higher cash
needs.
So if you don't hit the revenuetargets and you have higher
(12:43):
costs, that means you're runningout of liquidity.
And these are the difficultmoments when you're in this
situation and maybe you haveraised around or debt facility
and you think your run rate was18 months, but at the end it's
only 11, right?
So you're constantly in thismode of raising money and not
(13:05):
reaching targets.
It's more like a stable companyNow.
We are able to really do goodforecasts and we rarely have
deviations of more than 10% inanything.
But at the beginning it's likea whole mess the financial
planning and treasury and sothat was really difficult and
that translates into problemsthat you then sometimes you
(13:28):
can't pay commitments you havegiven with providers or even
employees, and that's reallydifficult to manage.
And then the second thing isabout personal disappointments
on the way.
I mean, as you can imagine, notnecessarily with employees, but
with many other partners orpeople, but just your personal
(13:51):
perception was that the deal wasdone in a different way.
And yeah, you learn it also thehard way.
Important to make contracts,always with your shareholders,
with providers.
Leave things written in emailsor documents.
It's just.
I recommend it.
(14:12):
Even if it's so clear and youhave this, you think you have
the same understanding about atopic.
It helps so much.
I mean it's just, yeah, it'stough business, but it is good
to trust.
But it's also good to writethings down, fix things in
contracts, you know so it's alsoclear.
(14:33):
No, I mean I've heard about somany or I've personally
experienced so many situations.
No, where just the twocontractual parties have the
different understanding aboutthe same situation and it's just
so helpful to write things down, which is sometimes at the
beginning.
It's a little bit moreuncomfortable, right, it's
(14:55):
similar, it's a different story.
But if people get married, Iwould say it's not bad to have a
contract.
I mean it takes away theromanticism and the thing,
because obviously when you getmarried you think you will never
separate.
No, but how helpful it is tohave a contract in place.
(15:17):
But that's more like a privatetopic.
But in business, I highlyrecommend to do contracts and
leave things in a written formno, I I completely agree with
you.
Ariel Camus (15:30):
Um I.
There is this um person that Ireally admire he's the founder
of the conscious leadershipgroup uh jim dumbner.
He talks about the four pillarsof integrity which he borrowed
from other people.
He talks about these impeccablecommitments or agreements.
Right, like you know, you havewritten down who is going to do
what by then and you, you know,stay true to those commitments
(15:52):
90% of the time, like it seemsso obvious.
Yet on a marriage, you know,often we don't do it because,
well, what about, yeah, theromanticism?
But it's so much harder to findthese agreements in the moment
where things get hard.
It's so much easier to do themup front so that when things get
(16:13):
hard, you have a clear, youknow, navigational route to
follow.
And I think that applies to,like, co-founders as well to
business partners to clientslike transparency, it makes life
easier.
In my opinion, yes.
Timo Buetefisch (16:27):
And obviously it's a little bit.
You know it's sometimes morallymaybe it's difficult to sell
because at the beginningeverybody new partnerships, new
collaborations there's so muchenthusiasm but it's exactly on
the way.
Many things happen, no, and ingeneral, anticipation is very,
(16:48):
very necessary as anentrepreneur.
So you need to anticipate whatthings can happen and you need
to anticipate worst casescenarios and you need to have
cash for situations that thingsdon't work out.
So sometimes, even if we'rebuilding up new teams, we
sometimes hire a person extra.
You know why?
(17:08):
Because it can happen for manyreasons that, for example, you
need two new commercial people.
Right, and maybe it's better,instead of hiring two, hiring
three, because if they three dooutstanding performance, they
pay their salaries anyhow.
So you keep the three.
But my experience is often thatalso people after a few weeks
(17:32):
decide to leave for any reasonor you are not happy with
somebody.
So sometimes anticipation isnot bad.
Ariel Camus (17:39):
Absolutely, and, by the way, we cover a lot of
these principles and frameworksand rubrics that help us make
good decisions as entrepreneursin the podcast.
But I'm also a huge fan ofstories and I can imagine, with
18 years of journey, you haveplenty of those good decisions
as entrepreneurs in the podcast.
But I'm also a huge fan of ofstories and I can imagine, with
18 years of a journey, you haveplenty of those.
Uh, what's been the story ofthe moment that you might recall
(18:03):
having the biggest, you know,doubts about whether things were
going to work on or if you had,you know, enough energy to
continue what?
What's been the most difficultmoment in your story so far with
Clotra?
Timo Buetefisch (18:15):
Well, I think it was after two or three years
when we saw that scaling up.
I think we opened Valencia,mallorca, next to Barcelona, as
new locations and things didn'twork out as planned, because
opening new locations is alwaysdifficult finding places,
(18:36):
finding people, findingcustomers so it took us much
longer.
No, so we are running out ofcash in difficult times.
No, so we have to scale downagain and somehow get more money
on board.
Do discounts to customers?
Yeah, really manage the cash.
Managing the cash is so key.
(18:59):
At the beginning of the venture, you shouldn't look at profit
or loss.
You should only look at yourbank statement, what has
happened, because that's at theend, it's the most important
thing that you don't run out ofcash, because people don't run
out of business because they dolosses, it's more because they
run out of cash.
Ariel Camus (19:19):
It's very important , absolutely.
You mentioned that you startedbootstrapping.
At what point did you startusing external capital to run
the business?
Timo Buetefisch (19:32):
Yeah, that was after one year of business.
So we started the company in2006, in March, and we did a
full year of like an MVP.
So we did like a product marketfit exercise.
So we bought mopeds, we renteda small garage.
Mopeds we we bought, we renteda small garage.
(19:56):
We we basically rented throughchannels that were easy to
manage, like flyering, goinginto hotels, uh, tourist office
building a very simple web page,um, for example.
Back then the the apps didn'texist yet, no, so they're
different.
There was no instagram, right,for example, or tiktok, so
channels of commercializationwere different, but we basically
managed to.
I think we reached in the firstyear 100,000 euros in revenue
(20:21):
and, yeah, we lost some money,but in general, we did like a
proof of concept, right, sothere was people that were
willing to pay for our service.
That was the summer of 2006.
And then we prepared a pitchdeck and in February 2007, so 11
months later we closed thefirst round with four business
(20:42):
agents.
Ariel Camus (20:42):
And if you were to look at the revenue curve of
Kultra, is there any specificmoment in its history where
something changed?
That was like a big inflectionpoint?
Timo Buetefisch (20:55):
Yes, there were several.
It was mainly when we changedbusiness models.
At one moment, we openedourselves up to long-term rental
, both for B2B and B2C.
That was a very positive impact.
And then in 2016, we opened upthe sharing.
So we were pioneers in that.
We basically started inBarcelona with 250 shared mopeds
(21:17):
and there we went really.
We changed also investmentstrategy, but there was a moment
where I raised more than 50million euros in equity and we
really went all in.
You know, we knew we had to gofast.
So we did a completelydifferent growth path.
So it was much more about hypergrowth, growing fast time to
(21:38):
market, spending a lot of moneyon marketing.
So it was like a completelydifferent growth story.
That was 2016.
Ariel Camus (21:48):
Did that require, I imagine, a big shift in the
culture of the company, but alsoin you as a leader of the
company.
How did that look like?
Timo Buetefisch (21:57):
Yeah, no different way of less control,
no more delegation.
Yeah, hiring more people Idon't know.
Sometimes we hired, like Idon't know, 200 people a year.
So that is really a lot.
So you double the workforce.
So that is really a lot.
So you double the workforce.
So that's really complex.
You don't have the systems inplace and many things go wrong,
(22:21):
but you're less efficient.
Then the more money you have,the less efficient you are.
But it's part of the game.
If you want to really build ina highly competitive environment
, you need to go fast sometimesand acquire customers.
So that's what basicallyhappened.
Now we are more in aconsolidation phase.
So, for example, in Barcelonafour years ago we were 23
(22:44):
competitors in Mopped Share.
Now we are left with threeStrongly consolidated market.
So now you look much more underoptimizing cost, giving better
customer attention.
So you are much more detailedoriented.
You change, you turn thesmaller screws.
It's not like building a bigmachine, you just we're now more
(23:06):
in an optimization mode.
Ariel Camus (23:09):
Going from such a crowded, fragmented market to
three, and you and Kultra beingone of the few ones you know
standing.
What was the thing that allowyou, or the things that allow
you, to be among the few onesthat are still here today
helping with the consolidationof the industry?
Timo Buetefisch (23:27):
Yeah, no, it's definitely the people I mean
mean it sounds so strange, butit is what it is.
We had ample experience.
So when we entered that market,we were already 10 years doing
this thing, so we had reallyextensive experience in managing
fleets, in working as a team.
(23:48):
Other people went in and theybuilt, like, in very, very short
timeframe, everything fromscratch.
No, we were building it over along period of time now and,
yeah, I think, being very muchinvolved and very caring about
details and making it work andalso aligning the different
(24:09):
levels of the company no,employees, management, team
shareholders in this same visionhelped a lot.
I think, luckily or not, orcall it also working well as a
team was very, very important.
We had access to capital,that's true, but many others had
(24:29):
as well, so that was not thedifferentiator.
Also, at one moment, we took avery important decision to
in-house technology.
So when we started off, webasically outsourced technology.
We used SaaS right, and thatwas great because it helped us
to go very quickly time tomarket.
But now in the consolidationgame and differentiation game to
(24:51):
competitors, it's veryimportant to own the technology
roadmap.
So that was a key change in ourstrategy.
Six years ago we had maybethree developers.
Now we have a team of 40.
So we invested heavily in ourown technology.
Ariel Camus (25:06):
That makes a lot of sense.
What is an example of somethingthat maybe a new player and of
course, we don't really knoweverything going on inside other
companies, but what issomething that you know happened
?
Maybe that a competitor didwith less experience, even if
they had the same or more cash.
That, from your perspective,was a mistake that you were able
(25:28):
to avoid because of yourexperience of many years.
Timo Buetefisch (25:31):
Yeah, no selection of assets.
For example, the product no.
So if you look at players, whatkind of mopeds they're using?
No, it reflects sometimes thatthey have no too little
experience in terms of sourcingno, that is an example.
Then, for example, reliabilityof service no, because our
(25:52):
service is quite complex.
No, you have to register via anapp, leave your driver's
license, load up your creditcard and then find the moped
started, get the helmets out ofthe box, take pictures at the
end no, and all these things arehappening at the same time, so
you can't't fail on any of thesecomponents of the mixture
(26:15):
between the hardware, thesoftware, the customer service.
So I think we found a goodbalance in managing all the
different variables, and that'snot evident, I would say not so
easy, and that's something thatKultra does.
I would say we give veryreliable service, we have good
(26:35):
customer attention service, andthat helps definitely to survive
.
Ariel Camus (26:45):
And I imagine having to deliver a product that
depends on hardware, like amoped.
It means things are much morecapital intensive, so mistakes
are also more expensive.
Was there any mistake in theearly days, where the cost was
high but also the lessonslearned were also important for
(27:05):
the future?
Timo Buetefisch (27:06):
Yeah, many times.
Sometimes we invested inhardware.
It's exactly that case, ariel.
As you say, you buy a hugefleet of I don't know 1,000
units.
You see it after a few monthsand then you're stuck with this
vehicle for many years.
You can't get rid of it.
These are mistakes we committedduring the early years.
(27:28):
Nevertheless, now we are veryhighly integrated with the
manufacturers.
We do a lot of testing, and sonow when we launch new products
on the hardware side, it's muchmore tested.
No, but it's a big issue.
No, and it's exactly that.
If you ask me, one of thereasons why CityScooter that was
(27:49):
our main competitor in Pariswent into bankruptcy and stalled
and didn't continue wasdefinitely their asset, the
selection of the hardware, whichI don't think was satisfactory.
But companies or competitorshave failed for many, many other
(28:09):
reasons.
Ariel Camus (28:10):
I can't imagine in in which ways, for example,
customer service for somethingwhere you are relying on a
vehicle to take you from point ato point b, yeah, can create a
lot of dissatisfaction if itdoesn't work well or if you're
not responsive enough, andcustomer opinion, especially in
the market with alternativeoptions, uh, that can, that can
(28:31):
definitely kill a business.
So, yeah, how, in which wayshave?
This is way less about thecompany, it's more about you.
Like, in which ways have youchanged or have how Kultra have
has changed who you are as aperson because of all this
journey for 18 years?
Timo Buetefisch (28:48):
now I've grown a lot.
No, when I, when I founded thecompany, I was 32, now I'm 50,
so it's a whole.
It has happened many, manythings.
I would say I was prepared tolead the company at the
beginning.
You do a complete learningprocess, especially through
managing people, managingsituations every day.
(29:10):
By looking what you've done,right or wrong, reflecting,
doing feedback loops.
You get basically betterprepared for difficult
situations.
The thing is, the bigger theorganization and the higher you
are, it's also the more complexsituation you're confronted with
(29:34):
.
Right, I would say, in terms ofI have very, very good managers
, so most of the decisions aremanaged by my team.
Right, so on my test, mainlylearn things that are very
complex.
No, so it's also quitechallenging always, because
sometimes I would love to handlealso sometimes situations.
(29:56):
But it's a little bit like thegreat privilege, but also a
little bit the challenge for aCEO, because normally you are
confronted with things that arequite complex in nature, which
is mainly related to people.
Ariel Camus (30:14):
People is always the hardest part.
Timo Buetefisch (30:16):
But yeah, we're doing a good job.
I think we're reallytransparent.
We say things as they are andif we identify issues, we try to
put them on the table.
So I think we have quite a goodculture in that sense.
Ariel Camus (30:32):
For someone who is starting the journey?
Yeah, do you think that it'sabout like you need to have
already this innate ability tolearn fast and adapt, or is
there any technique, any tool,any system that you have used to
help you learn and grow as fastas needed for the company?
Timo Buetefisch (30:54):
No, first of all, I think there's no one that
is more qualified or less fromthis, Because I've seen so
successful entrepreneurs withvery different profiles,
personality traits andcharacteristics.
They're more introverts or moreanalytics, more marketers, more
(31:15):
visionaries, more executors.
So I have.
The thing is it's always greatno to what you're not good at to
find complementary people.
No, so basically, what you tryis to complement and compensate
the things that you are not sogreat at.
No, so that is something youlearn.
Compensate the things that youare not so great at.
So that is something you learnon the way.
(31:36):
So you try to get people thatare compensating you, because if
you are not so good, maybe withexcellent numbers, it's great
to have somebody in the teamthat does it and is very
supportive.
If anybody is more, let's say,creative or less creative, then
it's great to have thecounterpart.
You know and um, so that thatis something that helps
(31:58):
tremendously.
You know, because you, yourealize you know, if there's a
size of like 50 people, acompany, 50 or more or even less
, you know, then it's justimpossible to do it all yourself
.
So you need the good peoplearound you and listen and keep
your eyes open and try to beflexible.
(32:20):
I would say the older you get,the less flexible you are.
So that's why I think startingbusiness between 25 and 35 is
great, because also youropportunity costs are lower, so
you're not so worried about whathappens if you fail.
So there's never a perfect age,obviously, but I think being
(32:46):
younger, a little bit morefoolish, a little bit more
risk-seeking is really great,because with the time you get
more and more you learn fromexperiences and you get a little
bit maybe more conservative.
No, yeah, it's just how thingsdevelop.
Ariel Camus (33:03):
What I'm hearing is that anyone can do it and can
be successful.
Obviously, you haven't saidthis, but probably you will
agree that there is a bigcomponent of timing that can
play a huge role and lackwhatever you want to call it,
but that, at the end of the day,it's about experience.
It's about doing it and doingit while learning.
(33:26):
What are you good at, what areyou bad at Delegating, what
you're not good at you good at,what are you bad at delegating
when you're not good at?
And the younger you are, themore likely is that you will
have the environment where youcan make tons of those mistakes
at a low cost for your lifeoverall, which gives you this
place to fail, fail, fail, learn, learn, learn, so that the
(33:47):
older you get, the moreexperiences you have to become
the best you know, perfectperson for the business and what
is also great.
Timo Buetefisch (33:54):
Just one comment on this is it's like,
from a life perspective, no, Iwould say big learning is, and
never put all like all the focusonly on the business.
You know it's like veryimportant.
Besides the business, always,no also construct other elements
like keep your body strong, eathealthy, sleep enough, build
(34:16):
solid relationships with friendsor partners, do sports, because
you have to see it that way,there's a huge risk of getting
so obsessed by business I'vepersonally done it and I see it
and the problem is then thenimagine then it fails, then you
have nothing to know, otherpillars, but I mean, it seems so
(34:40):
obvious, but it's definitely anerror which I committed,
because you think like you haveto give everything to make this
work, which is great also, butit's also dangerous.
Ariel Camus (34:54):
What was the moment where that happened to you and
how did you realize that thatwas not a sustainable path?
Timo Buetefisch (35:01):
I went through a divorce, for example, because
I didn't the heavy price I paidon that.
That was in the early days.
It's never the only reason, no,for separation, but definitely
I was working like hell, youknow, so it wasn't easy, no, so
that was a very, very hardexperience for me was, but yeah
(35:24):
things happen for a reason andthen you compensate and you meet
a new partner.
So life goes on.
No, but it definitely was alearning.
It was just.
I mean, it happens in differentways.
Maybe other people then don'tcare about their health, which
is even worse, you know, becausethey work so much and drink
only coffee, you know, and don'tsleep.
(35:45):
I know how it is, because youget so obsessed by this idea and
it's so important to keep theseother pillars alive.
Ariel Camus (35:54):
Yeah, and if things don't go so well, you have a
lot of work to do and morechances of if you don't have
other pillars, then not havinganything left.
But if things go really well,you also have a lot of reasons
to do a lot of work.
So there's only reasons to domore work, and always unlimited
work.
You have to put the limits.
(36:14):
In your case, was the divorceon its own one of these wake-up
moments of something had tochange on your side?
Timo Buetefisch (36:23):
Yes, the thing is also, with the time I'm now
18 years things don't get betterin terms of how much the
business requires from you.
I mean, the's really, reallydifficult, the challenges are
different, but the stressdoesn't leave.
So, because sometimes I feelpeople think OK, we start a
(36:44):
business, you know, and then,for example, after closing the
first financing round, thingsare done.
No, it's when it all starts,you know, and that's just
another learning.
No, it is a fucking marathon.
So it is really hard.
No, you have to train hard andit's a long-term race every time
(37:07):
.
No, it's also good to realize,because success will never
happen.
It happens sometimes.
Some people build an amazingbusiness and then after two
years they sell.
But let me tell you that islike 1% of the startup world.
Most of the cases are long-termgains, and that is assuming
(37:29):
that selling is your definitionof success right.
Ariel Camus (37:32):
Exactly I can imagine yeah, not necessarily
something that will contributeto your happiness, even though
everyone would love to sell youknow, a company after two years
for millions, but it might notnecessarily make you happy.
And I love something you said.
I think it's such a practicalinsight and it is to remind
(37:55):
yourself that most likely theamount of work and stress will
only go up.
So if you're trying to justifyhow you're living your life
right now for the businessbecause you think it's just a
momentary thing, it will onlyget worse, so you better put
limits right now.
How, how are you able to changethat?
Because it sounds easier, youknow, said than done, and I can
(38:17):
imagine how you know a divorceand a wake-up moment like that
can force us to say somethinghas to change.
But how were you able to changecompletely the way you were
approaching this balance?
Timo Buetefisch (38:29):
It's very good to have peers.
My learning and my coachingover these years has been done a
lot by other entrepreneurs.
I'm in a forum and you know,like this, like this forum
format and with 10 otherentrepreneurs, and we have been
meeting since 15 years, everyevery month.
(38:52):
So we are sharing experiences.
It's like a it's you know, it'sa little bit like a how do you
say it Anonymous alcoholics.
It's like a little bit asentrepreneurs that we have been
for the last 15 years sharingexperiences.
So that has been, it has been apeer group.
I highly recommend peer learningbecause sometimes the true
(39:18):
pains and challenges that youlive as an entrepreneur few
people can understand.
It's very hard to explain toyour mother, very hard to
explain to your life partner oralso people that have corporate
jobs, because it's just notcomparable, right.
So peer learning is verypowerful.
So there are many ways of doingthis.
No Like meeting for lunch withother entrepreneurs, listening
(39:41):
to podcasts, going toentrepreneurs events and
building this community, becauseI felt it's very powerful, the
sharing with other people thatgo a similar way.
So that has helped me a lot.
Ariel Camus (39:53):
Reflect honestly that's so amazing, it's such an
important piece of advice and Iwould say especially, it really
doesn't matter the size but, Ithink, the quality of those
connections and for it to be aplace where you can actually be
vulnerable, where you don't needto show what probably you need
to show every day at work, whichis that you are the rock.
(40:14):
You know that you will neverhave doubts about things like
that is a very dangerous path Ifyou have to play the role every
single day, every single moment.
So having people that that canshare those the joys too, but
also the sorrows, in avulnerable way seems like such
an important way to get balance.
And coming from someone thathas been doing this for so long,
(40:34):
I'm pretty sure it's it's.
Timo Buetefisch (40:37):
You know it's signed, that it actually works
yeah, I mean, let me give herelike three practical devices.
There are three groups that Ilike that work in this system.
One is the Entrepreneurs'Organization.
It's called EO.
It's an American institutionthat have different chapters and
they do this forum learning.
There's another one, it'scalled Vistage, works the same
(41:00):
way and there is a no Bullbullshit network here in
barcelona.
So all these are based they'rekind of similar um in the idea
of sharing between otherentrepreneurs.
But it is, it is.
It's quite uh cool huh.
So any of these three maybecould be of interest to other.
(41:20):
Thank you, you.
Ariel Camus (41:21):
Thank you for sharing that.
I'll make sure to put this inthe notes of the episode.
And also a big shout out toJorge, who is running no
Bullshit.
I think he's doing an amazingjob at precisely creating this
type of tight-knit, high-qualityvulnerable communities.
It's not easy to do it and he'sclearly doing a good job there.
How have you balancedvulnerable communities?
(41:44):
It's not easy to do it andshe's clearly doing a good job
there.
How have you balanced this needto take care of yourself, your
team, the business, theshareholders, but also balance
that with the pressures, theneeds, the incentives of the
venture capital side of things?
It's amazing that you haveachieved the size you have today
and you have achieved, you know, this like solid EBITDA.
You know profitable company.
(42:05):
What did that look like?
You know the journey in yourrelationship with your venture
capitalists.
Timo Buetefisch (42:11):
Yeah, no, very good question.
Also, I think the firstlearning is here for different
phases of the business.
You need different how do yousay it?
Compañeros de viaje, no, Peoplethat share the trip with you,
no.
So I think it's great at thebeginning to have really more
(42:33):
this informal investors,business angels, friends and
family.
You know you need quickly takemoney.
You probably don't have inplace a strong financial
reporting etc.
No, then there comes a phasewhere you start contacting like
seed uh, seed funds.
(42:53):
You know that put 50k, 100k.
They do also what they.
They don't get very involved inthe business.
They spread money, they investin 200 companies, take 100K,
hopefully it works.
They play lottery.
So that's the kind of investorthat will get very low minority
etc.
And then you move up the ladderand people.
(43:15):
Then you get into VC.
People do tickets of 5 million,10 million.
I have now two family officesas shareholders that put more
than 50 million in the company.
So this means they have bigtickets, they get involved.
So they are there for the longrun.
(43:36):
They want to support you, butthey also want to have a say in
the business, right, Becausewith these amounts of money they
don't give it away withouttaking control.
So, yeah, that is it.
It was just I wanted to makethat intro because sometimes
people don't have clear whichkind of investors you need at
(43:59):
which stage.
It really depends a lot on thestage of your Now, with these
family offices that we have inthe company, it's really these
people.
They take an active role in theway on the board level, not on
the management level.
They understand clearly there'sa difference between investors
(44:23):
and management Very important.
So there's some decisions whichhave to be taken on board level
strategic budget financing, newconstitutions, new countries
right, these are the strategiclevels that happen on board.
And then there are day-to-daytask management, running the
business, which is management.
(44:44):
So, yeah, there are all kindsof tools that regulate that.
No, so we have quarterly boardmeetings, we have quarterly
reports, we have monthly updatecalls.
So we have like a rhythmestablished which we defined as
like the rules of workingtogether.
(45:04):
No, yeah, and that works prettywell.
It helps also now in thesetimes to meet at least once a
year, you know, in physicalpresence, where we spend like
two days together.
It's very important to connectand build trust over the
personal meetings.
But otherwise, we establishedsome rules of working together.
(45:27):
They delegate very much to me,but I feel still especially I
personally feel a lot ofresponsibility because at the
end I manage their money.
So it's not easy, but ingeneral, the more experienced
(45:48):
investors are, the more coolthey are also facing difficult
situations because they haveseen it.
They know that many things willhappen and things go wrong, so
that is also great to havepeople on board Now in family
office.
Many times they're realentrepreneurs.
You know that, have beenrunning businesses and now they
(46:10):
are taking money to invest inother entrepreneurs, so it's a
really cool investor type.
Ariel Camus (46:17):
Highly recommendable.
Have you had any moment or anypartner where, like they were,
for example, pushing for growthand you were saying I think it's
a moment to focus onprofitability, for example?
Timo Buetefisch (46:29):
yeah, um, it's.
It's a little bit the other wayaround.
In our case, it was more likeus wanting to grow a little bit
more and then there was morelike the like, the voice or the
news on, well, let's say, theposition on the board level from
investors.
Hey, no, I mean because rightnow, the last three, four years,
we all know it has been reallyuncertain, I mean, if I compare
(46:53):
to before covid, and inuncertain environments sometimes
it's better not to spend, youknow, and managing the risk.
No, and this is a little bithow we grow.
Also, now we're probably not sohyper growth oriented anymore.
No, we want solid growth, 20,30 percent per year, going in a
solid uh space, no pace.
(47:15):
So it has been more like, also,investors, really, really, um,
making sure we'reself-sustainable, you know, like
in case another crisis hits no,which we hope happens.
Ariel Camus (47:30):
Winding the wheel sooner or later.
Timo Buetefisch (47:31):
Hopefully not no, but then we are still there,
you know, and survive.
We survived COVID, we survivedthe Ukraine crisis and now high
inflation.
So, yeah, it hasn't been easyand in these times sometimes
it's better to be a little bitmore reluctant on growth and a
little bit more risk averse.
(47:52):
I mean, cash is king.
If you have now access to moneyand have an EBITDA positive
company, you're in a very, verypositive situation, so don't put
that at risk necessarily.
Ariel Camus (48:07):
Absolutely.
Do you think that the fact thatyou chose to work with family
offices that invest their ownmoney had anything to do with
this more baby balance approachand not just focus on growth
than if you had gone with aninstitutional VC?
Yes, yes because was that an?
Timo Buetefisch (48:24):
intentional decision.
No, you know, it's likesometimes you don't know why
things happen, but now andlooking back, I think it was
very positive.
No, there's a huge difference.
No, in the VC game, compared toa family is exactly like to say
normally these are other peoplethat manage the money.
You know, it's more like aprincipal and agent thing.
Right?
So the vc managers are moreagents and they are not
(48:47):
necessarily there for the longrun because they change
positions often.
No, so sometimes you havedifferent board members, no,
with less experience.
No and um.
And it's also the investmentstrategy.
A VC fund definitely wants toexit after five or seven years.
This is the way to make moneyfor them.
They want to exit.
(49:08):
A family office can be moreopportunistic.
They can say, hey, we want tobe there in the long run.
We want to be moreopportunistic.
Dividend play Maybe we do anIPO, maybe we do an exit, maybe
we sell to a strategic player,maybe we sell to a PE.
So there are more options.
So it's a more open play andVCs take more risk.
(49:34):
I would say so if you look atthe risk profile, because a VC
normally has more investmentsthan a family office.
So they could more.
They want more return, so theyneed to take more risk.
So that takes the founders.
No, for us founders a differentgame, because it's our own and
(49:54):
and only asset, right.
So maybe we see, sometimes takeyou on a ride.
That is not necessarily theright for you, but yeah, it's
obvious but sometimes it's goodto share the obvious.
Ariel Camus (50:08):
I don't think it's obvious for someone who is
starting and is taking venturecapital and might not be aware
of this which there is nothingwrong with this right, like it's
just understanding theincentives and deciding if
they're aligned or not.
And if they're not, well, justknow that that might create
certain you know conflicts thatyou will have to overcome and
that that, as long as that's achoice and not something we do,
(50:31):
you know, without intending it,I think that that's fine.
It's a pattern that I've seenlately in many conversations.
The the family office route, Ithink it's a less common or less
known one, but assuming youfind what you said a family
office that actually hasexperience, that is aligned,
that understands the divisionbetween management and
(50:54):
governance of the board, I dothink that can be a great way,
because they're investing theirown money, which resembles a
little bit more your incentivesas a founder, because you're
managing just your one company,which is probably where most of
your net worth is concentrated.
So it's a better alignment ofincentives, I guess.
Timo Buetefisch (51:12):
Well.
Ariel Camus (51:12):
Timo, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for sharing.
I think it's been a relativelyshort amount of time, but packed
with so many insights and tipsand advice.
I look forward to sharing thejourney with you in the upcoming
years.
I look forward to maybe doinganother one and seeing where
things are.
But, thank you for everythingyou've done today.
Timo Buetefisch (51:35):
No, thank you Ariel.
You can see your experience andvery empathetic interviewer, so
congratulations also.
Thanks a lot, I've been apleasure and I'm also available
for the listeners of thispodcast.
If you want to contact me, findme on LinkedIn Timo Kultra.
(51:56):
I'm always there to help otherentrepreneurs.
Ariel Camus (51:59):
That's awesome.
Thank you so much for doingthat and I'm sure I will connect
with you as a peer at somepoint to get some advice and
support, because we all need it,thank you.
Thank you, artimo, great havingyou.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Your support means the world tome.
(52:21):
If you enjoyed today's episode,please consider subscribing and
leaving a review.
It's one of the best ways youcan help this podcast get off
the ground and help moreentrepreneurs like you.
Thank you and until the nextepisode, thank you.
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