March 14, 2025 • 40 mins
Cheryl Hickman is reimagining what an opera company can be in Newfoundland. As founder and artistic director of Opera on the Avalon in St. John's, she's built an organization that defies conventional wisdom about opera programming, audience development and digital engagement.
Starting with a budget of just $25,000 in 2009 after a successful international singing career, Hickman has grown Opera on the Avalon into a $1.2 million company ranked 12th largest among Canadian opera companies - the only company east of Quebec in the top 30. What makes this achievement remarkable is how it happened: largely by abandoning traditional repertoire.
"When we did Bohème, it really did not sell," Hickman reveals. "The first almost sold-out show we had was Dead Man Walking, because audiences knew it from popular culture." This discovery led to a radical shift toward commissioning and producing exclusively new works that resonate with local audiences. As Hickman puts it, "I'm never going to compete financially with the COC. But I also don't think anyone needs my version of Magic Flute."
During COVID, the company pivoted to outdoor filming across Newfoundland's spectacular landscapes, creating "The Rock Performs" series. This initiative blossomed into OOTA-TV, a free digital platform featuring commissioned mini-operas from renowned composers like Jennifer Higdon and Mark Adamo, collaborative projects with Indigenous artists, and documentaries that have reached worldwide.
Hickman challenges the notion that cultural excellence only happens in major urban centers: "For too long in our country we have decided what good art is and who could do good art... I'm not doing the same art they're doing in Toronto. Mine is different."
Recently appointed as the incoming Chair of the Canada Council for the Arts, Hickman will bring her perspective on regional arts development to national policy. Explore Opera on the Avalon's groundbreaking work at operaontheavalon.com, and discover why this Newfoundland company has something special for all opera lovers.
All episodes of The Opera Glasses podcast are hosted by the editor of Opera Canada, currently Michael Jones after Elizabeth Bowman hosted seasons 1 and 2. Follow Opera Canada on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Visit OperaCanada.ca for all of your Canadian Opera news and reviews.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Jones (00:06):
Welcome to Opera Glasses, the official podcast of
Opera Canada magazine.
I'm Michael Jones, your host,and today it's my distinct
pleasure to be speaking withCheryl Hickman from Opera on the
Avalon in St John's,newfoundland.
I first met Cheryl virtuallyshortly after assuming my new
role as Editorial Director ofOpera Canada.
(00:27):
I was meeting with people inthe opera community across the
country, connecting with writersand with staff at various
companies, particularlycompanies that I knew less well,
and everyone said to me that Ihad to meet Cheryl.
So we had a wonderful hour-longconversation that was
wide-ranging and interesting.
(00:47):
Cheryl can talk and I'm reallythrilled to present her to the
Opera Glasses audience.
But first some background.
In the last analysis of the top40 Canadian opera companies
that was published in the fallissue of our magazine, opera on
the Avalon was ranked 12thlargest based on budget size,
(01:09):
and it was the only company eastof Quebec in the top 30.
It's truly an amazingaccomplishment in a city of just
over 100,000 people.
But Cheryl is a force of nature.
After singing with operacompanies and orchestras across
North America and Europe, shebecame the founder and general
(01:29):
and artistic director of Operaon the Avalon in 2009.
She's a past chair of theAssociation of Opera in Canada,
and just last week she was namedthe new chair of the Canada
Council for the Arts, a positionthat will begin this summer,
and I'm looking forward toseeing what Cheryl's thinking
about the arts outside of ourlargest urban centres will bring
(01:53):
to that position.
But for today, we're here totalk about opera on the Avalon,
so welcome, cheryl.
Thank you.
Congratulations on your newappointment at the Canada
Council.
Cheryl Hickman (02:38):
And it's great to have you with us.
Thank you.
So why don't you tell us howyou startedon?
I thought how ignorant is thatRight?
And it really doesn't speak tohow I think art and culture
enriches our communities so, andour communities across the
country.
So I was born in St John's,newfoundland.
I went away for primarily allof my schooling.
(02:58):
I went to UT in Juilliard formy graduate work and then sang
as a professional artist formany years.
But when my nephews were born,who are now in their early 20s,
I was traveling and performingtremendously and I really miss
my family.
I have a very close family unitand I found it, you know, as a
performing singer.
(03:19):
I think I had.
There was one year I had threedays off, right and it's, and I,
you know, you do these careers.
Or you think, oh, I want to bea, you know, professional artist
.
And then you get in it and youthink, oh, I didn't know, that's
what.
That was Right.
So there was parts that I loved,but the, I would say being on
the road, constantly being awayfrom my family, was not really
(03:41):
how I envisioned the rest of mylife.
So it got to be a littletiresome.
And then I moved home and whenI was home I was really
frustrated by the lack of what Iwould consider, you know, very
high quality opera.
(04:01):
We just didn't have it right.
We have a huge theater scenehere, a very good musical
theater scene, but we did nothave a lot of classical music
outside of the university andcertainly no full scale opera.
Just doesn't exist, and doesn'texist really in the Atlantic
region.
So myself and my friend, jenMatthews, who played piano for
me and I'm sure audiences willknow Jen, um she was we just
(04:26):
decided to start theorganization and we met for
lunch and it was like, oh, let'shave a.
And it started as a summerfestival.
It's like let's do a summerfestival, cause that's what we
both knew and that was thesystem.
Right, everyone, all singers,do summer festivals.
Um, and that's how it was born.
And we started with um a reallysmall budget.
I think the first year was$25,000.
And now we're over, I thinkwe're about 1.2 million, so it's
(04:51):
grown exponentially.
But also, what the organizationfirst did, which was to be a
summer festival, we quicklyrealized that we did not want to
be in the business of havingyoung, vulnerable singers pay us
money to do summer programswhen they could least afford it.
They needed the advantages ofworking with an organization,
but you know, the idea that theyhad to pay for it and often
(05:12):
some of these summer programsare in a considerable amount of
money was not what we should bein the business to do.
So the company very quicklychanged to be.
You know, then we we had a kindof a mixed blend of older
repertoire, more standardrepertoire, and we used to have
younger singers and, and what Iwould consider, you know,
(05:33):
longtime lifers, as they say,the opera business, and so we
had a mix of that.
And then that changed as wellto be.
We really had a strategic lookat what we thought the company
could best be served doing, andthat is not traditional work.
So now I think we're theforemost commissioner and
(05:54):
presenter of new work, bothlarge and small, because we do
smaller arias digitally as well,and we also do new commissions.
So we currently have three newlarge-scale commissions underway
one musical, two operas, uh,one actually, which is having
its world premiere, uh, thisweek, uh, in san francisco in
co-production with operaparallel and opera omaha um, and
(06:15):
then a musical and an operabesides that and numerous
smaller scale commissions forthe digital uh, digital world.
So that's what we do now.
So you know it's it's been.
Um I now, so you know it's been, I would say when I you know,
when Jen and I first startedOpera on the Avalon, we really
did what we knew and that's whatwe focused on.
And since then the journey hasbeen what's missing.
(06:38):
Where can we fit in the operalandscape?
How best can we serve thecommunity?
How best can we serve singers?
Michael Jones (06:47):
And that's the work that we're doing now.
Well, there's a lot for me tounpack in that and I want to
come back, but I actually wantto take a brief moment to
remember Jennifer Matthews, whopassed away a couple of years
ago.
Jenny was also my accompanistwhen I was in university, so she
played for me as wellaccompanist when I was in
(07:09):
university so she played for meas well and she had a massive
impact on my life and I rememberher both very fondly and I
remember what a dynamo she was.
It's interesting that almosteveryone I've spoken to that
comes out of the music scene inNewfoundland had some connection
with Jenny, and so she's dearlymissed.
(07:31):
And it's really nice to hearabout another one of the things
that she helped to begin inOpera Avalon.
Cheryl Hickman (07:37):
She really did.
And it's funny because when shepassed one of her dear friends
who lives in the Corner Brookarea, where Jenny eventually
settled, which is where herfamily was from, she had a
catalog, like a wealth of allthis music and you know all the
Nico Castel books and stuff thatyou know it's huge investments
and she called me and said Idon't really have anyone out
(07:58):
here who would like those.
Do you want them?
And I was like, yes, so I haveher almost her entire catalog of
music.
And I was like, yes, so I haveher almost her entire catalog of
music.
And I just looked at it twodays ago because we're doing a
piece from for digital work, andand I was like, let's call out
Jenny, so Jenny is in our officein spirit every day.
She's, yeah, she's beside meevery day, she's just in a
(08:20):
different form.
Michael Jones (08:22):
Well, it's a lovely memory to have, so I'm
glad you have that Now youstarted.
You said you started withlargely standard repertory, but
now you are really focusing oncommissions and new work.
Cheryl Hickman (08:37):
Yeah, so we used to do.
You know, again, I think we'retold in our business that let's
do the war horses.
They sell the best, right?
Carmen's, bohème's.
I mean, if you look at thecurrent repertoire, that's being
done.
It's what people traditionallythink fill bums in seats.
That did not work for us and Ithink it's because our community
(08:57):
doesn't have a history of opera, right?
So when we started to do that,I remember Bohème really did not
sell.
The first almost sold out showwe had was Dead man Walking,
because I think audiences knewit from popular culture.
So Sound of Music sold like wedid.
Sound of Music, things thatthey could have read or seen in
(09:19):
another way.
They had great affinity for,they had great affinity for.
And then we decided um, we had aspecial project, uh, for the
2016, which was the hundredthanniversary of Beaumont Hamill,
and we decided to commission ourfirst piece.
I had no idea what I was doing.
It's a lot of trial, trial anderror and uh and again, I
(09:40):
recommend that hardly sometimeswhen you don't know what you're
doing Um and again it this isfunny.
You mentioned Jenny Matthews.
Um, mike Cavanaugh was a hugepart of Opera on the Avalon at
the beginning too, and he reallywas so generous, as he often
was with colleagues around theworld, in saying, uh, how like,
(10:01):
really lifting our game up right, getting uh.
He was just an amazing presenceand we would not also be here
without Mike.
So he was originally on thatproject and it just didn't gel
and and Glenislation came inafterwards.
But Mike was enough of aprofessional to say I'm not the
person for this project and verygraciously stepped away in a
(10:23):
place that I don't think mostpeople would have done Right.
So that was, you know.
Those are the things that Ilook back on that now and I
realized what a sacrifice thatwas for him.
But he did it for the better ofthe project and the company and
that was a great learninglesson.
So that was our first commissionand we had massive sold out
audiences.
(10:43):
The governor general came.
It was a very big, very bigdeal for us, and then it didn't
cost as much as I thought it wasgoing to right, because you
always hear about howprohibitively expensive new work
is and I thought, well, this isnot much more outside the
commissioning fees than normalshows you know cost us.
(11:04):
So why can't we do this model,which was probably incredibly
naive, but it worked for us.
And then I started to realize,as we started to do, different
rep audiences for us were veryengaged with new work, work that
told our stories, work thatthey resonated, resonated with
them, and so we've completelymoved away from anybody's work
(11:26):
except our own.
So and covid was a big jump inthat too, because, um, we very
quickly decided to stay workingduring covid, you know, we
socially distanced but did aproject called the rock reforms,
which was all outside, still isum, and that was a way for us
to stay invested in ourcommunities and still hire
(11:46):
artists.
And that also then became ahuge change for the company,
because we decided to invest indigital as well, so in new
commissions and so.
So that's where we are now.
Michael Jones (11:58):
Well, I think it's interesting that you say
Bohem didn't sell and yet youcan sell new works, which is
could be a lesson for some ofour bigger companies.
But I actually think is moreimportantly, it's a lesson in
knowing your community, knowingwho your audience is and what
(12:20):
your role in the community is.
Is that fair?
Cheryl Hickman (12:22):
I think that's fair and I was at a conference
years ago, I think, thatAssociation for Opera in Canada
had, and I remember one of thespeakers said the role of an
arts organization is not for youto say here's what I have, I'm
going to give it to you.
My audience, my community, thecommunity should lead that it's
what they need, not what I need.
(12:43):
And our community was veryclearly saying I do not want to
see a bohemian.
I remember we did Tosca, forexample, and when we do titles
because we want to make surethat people can understand what
everyone's saying and and thetitles are what they are and
people laughed in.
We were really taken aback byit because some of those titles
(13:03):
are ridiculous, right, it's,it's opera for an opera and
educated and I and I sayeducated only in that the it's
the tradition of their lives.
They took that at face valueand it was what it was For an
audience just coming into it.
They laughed because it isridiculous, right, like some of
the things you're saying arelike I cannot believe somebody's
singing that on stage.
(13:23):
So I think traditionalaudiences suspend their
disbelief.
Our audiences did not, so.
For them it was like this isridiculous.
Our audiences did not.
So for them it was like this isridiculous.
Um, so we really, I think um,listen to our community, what
(13:44):
they wanted, uh, what they felthad value to them.
And also, I think we had a hardlook at um, I'm never going to
be able to compete financiallywith the COC I don't want to.
But I also don't think thatanyone needs another version of
my flute.
That's not the role I need tobe playing in the landscape of
Canadian opera producers andpresenters.
But I think what we do need,and what I see lacking in our
(14:05):
country, is a lack of new work,the lack of work with new, young
artists.
That's, to me, what's reallydesperately needed.
I look at musical theater, whichhas, you know, the reason why
musical theater continues tothrive is because they're
continually producing andcommissioning new pieces.
Opera.
For some reason, we've decidedthat that's just a non-starter.
(14:28):
So you know, and now I thinkit's changing a little bit.
But you know, I think it needsto change dramatically we're not
going to keep our art formalive if we just decide that
we're going to keepregurgitating what we already
know but make it a bit differentin the staging.
It's ludicrous.
So you know, just because youwant to sexy up Don Giov about,
(14:55):
yes, we can rely on putting bumsin seats with 95 carbons every
year, but is that what's bestfor the art form?
And I think we have to take theaudience along with insisting
on new work.
And it's not the fact that it'sa success or not, it's just
that we're trying.
And, to me, what I love aboutlive theater is it's the
(15:15):
collective humanity of both thepeople on stage and the audience
.
So it's how people react in amoment.
That is a thrill that I don'tcare how much, because we do a
lot of digital work, which Ithink is a needed component in
the work that we do, but nothingwill ever place a human being
doing what I call, you know,opera, supernatural feats on
(15:37):
stage.
That's really, to me, the youknow, the zenith of what we're
doing.
I think all of it has to existtogether, but it's, you know,
the way.
Now even streamers aredisrupting the current landscape
.
We have to start thinking aboutyou know how we disrupt our
current landscape, but I don't,I don't think continuing with
(16:00):
you know, a 90% diet of what'sput.
You know, people in theaudiences made them come to the
theater before.
I think we really need to havea hard look at whether, in the
long run, that because ournumbers keep going down and down
and down and down and we haveto stop that slide well, and I
will come back to your videowork because I do want to talk
(16:23):
about that.
Michael Jones (16:23):
but but let's talk.
You have a commission, aco-commission that's opening
this week in san francon Keeper.
It's the composer's DavidHanlon, with a libretto by
Stephanie Fleshman, and it opensthis week at Opera Parallel in
San Francisco.
I want to talk about the piece,but then I also want to talk a
(16:46):
little bit about theco-commission model and why
that's working for you.
But let's first talk about youknow you say you do pieces that
will appeal to your audience.
We tell our stories, so tell mewhat drew you to the Pigeon
Keeper as a story.
Cheryl Hickman (17:03):
So I think we're living in really difficult
times, right, and the PigeonKeeper is a story about othering
other people and it's a storyabout immigration.
And you know a stranger who,like all of the things that
we're currently dealing withright, and how we've decided
that some people are deservingof good lives and others are not
, depending on where they wereborn.
(17:24):
So the Pigeon Keeper is reallyabout what we decide as a
community when we welcome othersinto it, which and to me, being
a Canadian, because we'rehaving our own discussion right
now about what it is to be aCanadian that you know we are a
country built on the idea ofmulticulturalism, that we are
made better by diversity.
(17:45):
We're a stronger community byhow diverse it is, and I firmly
believe that, and the PigeonKeeper is, at its heart, a story
about that.
It also has a children's chorusin it, which I love.
It's only a small cast, threeperformers, but it really is how
we can evolve as a society,when we deserve that, or when we
(18:06):
decide that all people aredeserving of respect and meeting
people where they are, and that, to me, is really what the
pigeon keeper is.
So I think it's a worthwhilelesson, especially now we're
living in a time that I thinkmultiple countries have decided
that other people are the reasonwhy they're not doing well in
life.
Right, it's whateverdemographic or race you decide
(18:29):
is the problem for you notsucceeding, and I think we have
to push back against that, and Ithink how we do that is through
art and through culture andthrough having those discussions
and showing it on stage.
So that's why we were really.
I think when I first looked atthe libretto and the score, it
struck a chord in me, especiallynow where we're living in such
(18:53):
divisive, hateful times, thatthe only way I can push back
against that is to invest andcreate art that firmly says I do
not believe that that is thecase.
Michael Jones (19:04):
And it is opening this week.
You have some of your singersdown there.
Cheryl Hickman (19:08):
So we have an emerging artist program.
We have five young artists thisyear.
So we also and again becausewe're small, um, we often
partner with uh.
We had a wonderful partnershipthis year and are continuing to
have.
Some of our singers have goneto Pacific opera Victoria to
cover roles there because, again, we want to give them as much
opportunity as they can.
(19:29):
And then two of our youngsingers, um are in San Francisco
right now covering two rolesand then they'll be there for
opening night.
I will not be because I've madethe decision.
It's I don't really want to betraveling to the US right now.
I value our US partnerships andyou know Opera Parallel is a
like minded, wonderful company,but I do not feel right now that
(19:51):
I want to be.
You know, spending money in theUnited States.
Michael Jones (19:54):
The partnership with you said with Opera
Parallel, I think there's Omaha.
Cheryl Hickman (20:00):
Opera and Santa Fe Opera.
So Santa Fe Opera has thiswonderful initiative where they
often commission new work butthey don't always present it,
which I think is so.
You know, sometimes the hardpart or the most expensive part
is the commissioning or findingwork, or deciding.
You know what you want, therepertoire, and because, again,
like I would love to justcommission and maybe not always
(20:24):
present, but that's so, wepartnered with them and and then
with two other wonderfulpartners, opera Omaha and Opera
Parallel.
So it will go to Opera Omahanext and then we'll have the
(20:49):
Canadian premiere in 2027 withour Canadian artists.
Michael Jones (20:52):
Which is amazing because it's an opera that,
therefore, has already bookedmultiple presentations in
different cities, which I thinkis a real challenge for how we
create work.
I think because there is acertain cachet to presenting the
premiere of a work that it'ssometimes it's sometimes even
(21:14):
when we do commission easier toget that first production than
to get it presented a secondtime because it's sexy, right?
Cheryl Hickman (21:22):
the world premiere is oh, I'm having a
real premiere, whatever, I'mstill getting a Canadian
premiere like I don't.
I'm not wedded to that.
But certainly co-productionslessen the financial burden and
I do think a lot of companieshave this idea of how
prohibitively expensive new workis.
It's not right.
So it's an investment in yourcommunity and your organization
(21:44):
and it lives forever, right,like long after I'm gone.
I will be if I never doanything.
In my career I have helped tomake other artistic work
possible that lives forever.
I'm okay with that.
Michael Jones (21:56):
That sounds like a great goal to have.
So it's coming to you in 2027.
Yes, and plans before then withOpera on the Avalon.
So right now we're On stage.
We're going to come to yourvideo stuff in a second.
Cheryl Hickman (22:10):
So right now we're doing Last year we had a
huge project about Newfoundlandjoining Confederation, which we
called 75 on 75, which was amassive digital project, and
this year we're doing anotherone.
So we do like fall festivalsand it's not full opera
presentations, it's, you know,classical music in recital.
(22:31):
So we have a fall festival andwe'll have workshops for the new
musical with Rene Orth andKanika Ambrose sorry, the opera
with Rene Orth and KanikaAmbrose.
And then we do opera with ReneeOrth and Kanika Ambrose, and
then we're doing a new musicalwith Britta Johnson.
So we'll be workshopping all ofthose over the next few years.
But our next main stage workoutside of digital is not till
2027.
(22:52):
And again, that was thedecision that we made, that if
we didn't have the ability to doshows every year.
So then after that we'll a newshow on stage 27, 28, 29,
because development costs a lotof money, takes a lot of time to
do it correctly.
So we had to make sure that ouraudiences still knew we were
here, still were engaging withus, and for us that has been our
(23:15):
digital engagement.
So, no matter, you know whatwe're doing.
We just don't disappear for twoyears and they're thinking
where are we Right.
So it's been a way for us tostay.
Michael Jones (23:26):
I would actually say more people have come to us
through our digital work thanthe work that we've done in
theatre While I've been toNewfoundland and I would
encourage any of our listenersto actually go to St John's and
to Newfoundland, because it'struly a magical place to visit.
(23:47):
I was really fortunate to comethere, but many of our listeners
won't be able to make thatjourney.
Traveling to St John's isactually quite a commitment from
practically anywhere in Canada,so many won't be able to do
that, but they still have theopportunity to engage with Opera
(24:07):
on the Avalon.
There is UTA TV UTA being theacronym for Opera on the Avalon
which you can get to on yourwebsite.
It's completely free.
I know that.
All I had to do was Iregistered there and then it let
me into this entire bank ofamazing videos.
So why don't you tell us aboutyour video work that people can
(24:29):
see at operaontheavaloncom?
Cheryl Hickman (24:32):
So I will say this kind of goes back to our
place of and I think this talksabout, you know, colonial
structures and all this kind ofstuff that for too long in our
country we have decided whatgood art is and who could do
good art, right.
So usually it meant you had tobe in Vancouver, montreal or
Toronto and everybody else wasexempt from that, right?
I think now we realize thatthat is absolutely foolishness.
(24:55):
I'm not doing the same artthey're doing in Toronto.
Mine is different.
It doesn't make it better orworse.
The same art they're doing inToronto, mine's different.
It doesn't make it better orworse.
And I think how we try to engagein Newfoundland Labrador is a
very particular place that has avery long history of culture,
of theater, of art, of poetry,of visual art.
And I would say how Canadiansknow us or first have come to us
(25:18):
is through our culturalidentity.
So if you look at CBC, there'sa ton of Newfoundlanders on that
.
There's multiple shows.
You know, gordon Pinsent, Ithink, was how a lot of
Canadians would have firstfigured out who you know
Newfoundlanders, labradorianswere.
We have a really, you know wewere our own nation until 1949.
So when we joined Canada.
(25:38):
We did so because we paid backour war debt to Britain and we
were bankrupt, not because wecouldn't govern ourselves.
We honored a pledge to pay backBritain and we did so.
And I don't think Canadians areaware a lot of Canadians are
aware of that history.
So when I would go to Torontoand and uh, I remember people
would say to me proudly likethey were giving me a compliment
(26:00):
, oh you don't have an accent.
And I would think what doesthat mean?
Like I've never heard peoplesay to Irish people proudly, oh
you don't sound Irish, and smileat you like they were
complimenting you.
So I think it was.
You know, canadians were alwaystold when Newfoundland joined
that we had to and we weredesperate and they took us like
(26:21):
a charity case and poor Canada.
So, and to me that was not howI understood growing up as a
Newfoundland and Labradorian,because we are an incredibly
proud, educated, diverse groupof people and it's through
culture that I found that prideand I also think that's how
we've had a renaissance of whowe are as a province, through
(26:43):
CODCO or through Mary Walsh orthrough, you know, our musicians
, mark Fewer, the violinist, allof these people.
So that is why I think I reallypush back about the idea that
only major centers produce goodart.
So that was where we decided wewanted to really showcase the
(27:04):
province, who we were, who ourartists were, because, again, as
you said, people can't get hereright.
And we started our Digital theRock Performs in COVID.
When we had to pay people, wegot lots of grant money, as most
organizations did, and we putit right out the door and paid
as many artists as we could andwe thought, well, how can we do
that safely Because we couldn'tbe in rooms.
So we David Howells, our mainphotographer and cinematographer
(27:29):
, and Roger Monder, director weall decided that we were going
to hire as many artists as wecould do videos
multidisciplinary, not justopera singers and collaborate
with those artists on a piecethat they chose and to film it
outside where we could sociallydistance.
And that's how it started.
Now we're doing documentaries.
We have a new documentarycoming out about a project that
(27:51):
we did going right up the coastfrom St John's to Labrador.
So we're doing not only shortvideos, we're actually doing, uh
, small feature films anddocumentaries about that work.
So it's really changedeverything that we do with our
organization.
So we've really decided, youknow, to work in different
genres, multidisciplinary, uh,everything, and that's how, uh,
(28:17):
I think for us a significantamount of thinking strategically
as a company, that we justwanted to change the work that
we were doing.
And also, like, when I thinkabout how visually you can see
opera in Canada, you reallycan't right, we're really hemmed
in by Canadian Actors' Equityregulations.
It's very difficult for us tosee live stage and that's
(28:40):
problematic and I think we haveto deal with that.
But short videos we couldeasily do and that's what we do.
So, like, if I want to seetomorrow's show that Vancouver
Opera is doing, I can't see itRight Because it's prohibitively
expensive for Vancouver Operato bring that to me.
Same thing with streaming.
We stream all our shows andFebruary our last world premiere
was streamed around the world.
(29:01):
I think we had something like33 countries.
So we are, we are being able toenlarge our community through
that work, both from liveperformance and also digital
recordings that we do.
So now we're at the point wherecommissioning like I can't
commission enough large scaleworks, we just don't have the
resources to do it.
So now we're commissioningsmaller scale ones.
(29:21):
So last year for again, ouremerging artists program because
young artists need to learn howto engage with living composers
and librettists.
They each got to work withRenee Orth, jennifer Higdon,
jonathan Rowe, canadian composer, lila Palmer, the librettist,
and Mark Adomo and MedoeChristie, who was one of our
(29:42):
young artists who also wrote alibretto.
So that's, you know.
That's where we actually feel.
Now we can start enlargingagain the work that we're doing
through doing large scale andsmall scale commissions, both in
the digital world and on themain stage commissions, both in
(30:05):
the digital world and on themain stage, and just talk
specifically about these, thesesmall works that you're
commissioning for your youngartists.
Michael Jones (30:10):
Um, the name of that series again, just we call
it the emerging voices seriesemerging voices series.
if someone and I mentioned youcan go to opera on the avaloncom
and watch all of these series,both the Rock Performs the
Emerging Voices series.
Someone is starting and I'm notasking you to pick a favorite
child because I don't thinkthat's fair.
But if someone who's going tothe site for the first time and
(30:34):
you had to pick one of theEmerging Voices videos for them
to start with as an introductionto the series, what would you?
What would you recommend?
Cheryl Hickman (30:43):
so I would say, as I just said to you in the
answer, sometimes, you know, um,we asked for all the composers
and librettos to come up with afour minute video.
Marc adamos was eight minutesand at first we almost had a
complete panic attack becausethat means, you know, you need
longer film time, all all ofthese things.
And we tried to keep it to.
You know, videos of under fourminutes, because we thought
(31:05):
that's what audiences wanted.
And, uh, anyway, we thoughtthat, so, mark, so I could cut
it.
We thought, no, because that'syou know.
He said that's what the piecewas, that's what we went with.
It was a huge joy.
So for us, that was again alesson in the piece dictates
what the piece is going to beand it's no need for me to stand
in the creative way of thatright.
(31:25):
So and it was again that's nowbeen a great starting point for
our filmmakers has said thisyear well, we're going to throw
out all those ideas of how longany of that's going to be and
the emerging voices series we'redoing this year.
We're actually envisioning itas a 30 minute small film so
that all of the pieces willintersect into each other.
Uh, but it won't exist as fourseparate videos.
(31:48):
It'll be 30 minutes of a ofsome type of film, which of
which Lisa has writtenindividual arias, but also a
longer narrative.
So that's.
You know, that's exciting.
So it was a very good, I think,for us, a really good way to
start again being creativelyflexible and not being stuck in
(32:09):
all ways of thinking.
And then we all said, well, whydid we ever come up with that
four minute idea?
Anyway, and again, I think it'sbecause most people consume art
in that way.
But also, you know, if you lookat, people are consuming
TikToks in 30 seconds.
I'm not doing 30 second like,forget it.
If you, if you cannot do thediscipline of sitting down and
watching a video, it's I'm notyour, I'm not yours, right, it's
(32:31):
, you're not for me and I'm notfor you.
So I, I think we're, we're justgoing to experiment more and
see what happens out of that.
And that was a good lesson.
So I think in terms of that one, because it was our first year
of doing it.
They're all my favoritechildren, but that was a way for
me to again think outside ofthe box.
Michael Jones (32:50):
And then of all of them.
Cheryl Hickman (32:52):
I would say one of my favorite ones was our
partnership with Eastern Owl,which is an indigenous group of
women from Newfoundland,labrador.
They're an amazing, amazingband.
They're not opera singers, butyou know the rock performance.
Newfoundland and Labrador isoperatic in its landscape.
So we you know, we don't careabout that label either and they
(33:13):
did.
They wrote a beautiful songcalled Henrietta, about a woman
in Newfoundland and Labrador whois still missing, who was, you
know, murdered and they've neverfound her.
And all the proceeds of thevideo we encourage people to
donate to the Foundation forMurdered and Missing Indigenous
(33:33):
Women and and that video is nowpart of a traveling exhibition
with the Winnipeg Museum ofHuman Rights and it's going into
the United States.
And so you know, these are alsothings that it doesn't occur to
us when we start these projectsof where they could end up.
But I remember when the museumcalled us about this partnership
you know, life is funny, right?
(33:54):
I thought if you could everhave told me that a video we
would be doing for a small COVIDproject would end up there, I
would not have thought that.
And doing for a small COVIDproject would end up there, I
would not have thought that.
Michael Jones (34:04):
And that's how you can have an effect in your
community.
You just spoke briefly aboutdonations.
When we first, when COVID firststruck and many performing arts
companies moved to virtual andonline offerings, one of the big
questions was how do youmonetize it?
And I talked about the factthat all of this material is
available through your websitefor free.
(34:25):
How do you monetize it, cheryldo?
Cheryl Hickman (34:28):
you.
I don't think everything needsto be thought of in the lens for
us about how much money can Imake on that, because that's not
what I'm doing as an artist.
Right, don't get me wrong.
I want to balance my books andwe always start with um, I don't
spend money I don't have, and Ithink we've been successful and
never run.
The only time I think we've everin 16 years, run a deficit was
(34:49):
in COVID, when we decided to payevery artist, and that was a
decision our board made thatmorally, we had to do that, so
we ran a deficit.
I was happy to do it because itmeant people ate, uh pay their
rent for the year.
So I think when we decided todo the digital thing, we did not
want people to have the barrierof oh, you can only watch this
(35:09):
or have a paywall, because whatwas good for us was that it
allowed us to enlarge ourcommunity, to be seen anywhere
around the world, to be acultural ambassador, and that's
not something, um, you know, ifthe money was going to be a
barrier, I didn't want to havethat happen.
What we did do was say at theat the end of every video and
(35:31):
within either, the rock performs, if it's on youtube or within
udah tv, there's please, youknow, if you feel so inclined,
please donate, and people do sothat's been, you know, and
depending on the video it variesand that's been wonderful for
us.
So it's been a different way ofmonetizing it, so to speak.
(35:51):
And then, you know, some peoplecan't.
They want to watch the videobut they really can't afford it.
That's okay, too, right, andthe ones who do can't so.
But I also think it's helpedour work with our foundations
and they see the work that we'redoing and we've had a huge jump
I think we're over 500 percentin our foundation foundational
(36:12):
donations, because they see thework that we're doing in terms
of, you know, inclusion andmaking our work diverse and
reaching out to as manycommunities as possible, and
they're supporting that as well.
Michael Jones (36:25):
I think that there are some really valuable
lessons there.
I'm conscious of the time, I'mconscious of your time, so I
want to end today with somereally really sort of speed
round questions.
So just the first answer thatcomes to your mind and a few
answers so you're relaxing.
It's the end of the day.
You're sitting in your space athome, you're in your
(36:47):
comfortable clothes, whatever.
I won't ask what you're wearing.
Um, I call it soft clothes.
They're back.
You're in your soft clothes, mysoft clothes yep where are you
sitting?
in your house?
Cheryl Hickman (36:58):
uh, when at that time my living room I have some
, usually my living room.
Michael Jones (37:05):
Windows.
Cheryl Hickman (37:07):
Two windows.
But what I usually do when Icome home is I check Instagram
because I love Instagram justfor like pretty things.
I hate Facebook or any of that.
Twitter, god forbid.
I usually check that.
And then I'm a huge needlepointer, which I know so like I
love all the.
I love crochet, I love needlepoint, I love painting, I love
(37:29):
puzzles.
So then I usually read I, youknow, check Instagram, or I do
needle point, yeah.
Or I watch some stupid comedywith somebody like Will Ferrell
which makes me beer or adateline.
Anyone who's getting murdered,I'm up for that too.
Michael Jones (37:43):
And what are you eating and drinking as you relax
?
Cheryl Hickman (37:46):
Oh God, I know it's terrible, but I love real
Coke.
I'm not a drinker, but realCoke I do love.
And, um, I don't know if youhave them in the rest of Canada,
(38:06):
but I love Humpty, dumptyCheesies, which are the soft
ones.
So that's my junk.
Oh, and there's, there's awonderful, uh bakery here that
does gelato ice cream place andthey have one called pride cake
which is so good.
Um, yeah, and it's, I don'tknow what it is.
It's like some every color ofthe rainbow cake.
It's pretty good well, that'ssummer, it's pride cake.
If it's the winter, it's acheesy okay.
Well, that's that's good I likemy ice cream diverse.
(38:27):
There you go well.
Michael Jones (38:30):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm sure that my our listenersare enjoying this just as much
as I have.
It is a pleasure to talk to you, cheryl.
It's really interesting tolearn about opera on the Avalon
and I hope that as many of ourlisteners as possible will
actually come to visit you sothey can understand the magic of
(38:50):
St John's, they can go to therooms, they can be there in the
late summer, early fall, for,like festival after festival,
it's really quite wonderful timeto go to St John's but also so
that they know they can checkyou out online to see your
videos, to see UTA TV and to usemaybe use that as they go home
(39:14):
tonight and get into their softclothes.
Cheryl Hickman (39:16):
Well, you know what?
Well, you know what.
In all honesty, as I do thiswork and I go across the country
to see other companies, Ireally encourage Canadians to
visit every part of it.
(39:37):
They've realized how special itis and I think that's really
important for us now, asCanadians, is to think about,
because I think we've beenthrough our own time of how
divisive the country has become,that we are better by everybody
in it, how diverse we are, thedifferent cultures that we have,
you know, and to stop thinkingof the negativity that has been,
(40:16):
I think, for the last few years, very strong in the Canadian
Opera Company, but we also needthose smaller ones.
We need to all celebrate themas Canadians, and I encourage
all of us to do so and tosupport your cultural industry.
Michael Jones (40:29):
Absolutely.
And on those words I think wewill close.
Thank you to our listeners forjoining us for this issue of
Opera Glasses, this episode ofOpera Glasses.
I am your host, michael Jones.
I've been chatting with CherylHickman and we are pleased to
bring this to you from OperaCanada Magazine and we hope that
(40:50):
you will join us for the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Opera Glasses, the official podcast of
Opera Canada magazine.
I'm Michael Jones, your host,and today it's my distinct
pleasure to be speaking withCheryl Hickman from Opera on the
Avalon in St John's,newfoundland.
I first met Cheryl virtuallyshortly after assuming my new
role as Editorial Director ofOpera Canada.
(00:27):
I was meeting with people inthe opera community across the
country, connecting with writersand with staff at various
companies, particularlycompanies that I knew less well,
and everyone said to me that Ihad to meet Cheryl.
So we had a wonderful hour-longconversation that was
wide-ranging and interesting.
(00:47):
Cheryl can talk and I'm reallythrilled to present her to the
Opera Glasses audience.
But first some background.
In the last analysis of the top40 Canadian opera companies
that was published in the fallissue of our magazine, opera on
the Avalon was ranked 12thlargest based on budget size,
(01:09):
and it was the only company eastof Quebec in the top 30.
It's truly an amazingaccomplishment in a city of just
over 100,000 people.
But Cheryl is a force of nature.
After singing with operacompanies and orchestras across
North America and Europe, shebecame the founder and general
(01:29):
and artistic director of Operaon the Avalon in 2009.
She's a past chair of theAssociation of Opera in Canada,
and just last week she was namedthe new chair of the Canada
Council for the Arts, a positionthat will begin this summer,
and I'm looking forward toseeing what Cheryl's thinking
about the arts outside of ourlargest urban centres will bring
(01:53):
to that position.
But for today, we're here totalk about opera on the Avalon,
so welcome, cheryl.
Thank you.
Congratulations on your newappointment at the Canada
Council.
Cheryl Hickman (02:38):
And it's great to have you with us.
Thank you.
So why don't you tell us howyou startedon?
I thought how ignorant is thatRight?
And it really doesn't speak tohow I think art and culture
enriches our communities so, andour communities across the
country.
So I was born in St John's,newfoundland.
I went away for primarily allof my schooling.
(02:58):
I went to UT in Juilliard formy graduate work and then sang
as a professional artist formany years.
But when my nephews were born,who are now in their early 20s,
I was traveling and performingtremendously and I really miss
my family.
I have a very close family unitand I found it, you know, as a
performing singer.
(03:19):
I think I had.
There was one year I had threedays off, right and it's, and I,
you know, you do these careers.
Or you think, oh, I want to bea, you know, professional artist
.
And then you get in it and youthink, oh, I didn't know, that's
what.
That was Right.
So there was parts that I loved,but the, I would say being on
the road, constantly being awayfrom my family, was not really
(03:41):
how I envisioned the rest of mylife.
So it got to be a littletiresome.
And then I moved home and whenI was home I was really
frustrated by the lack of what Iwould consider, you know, very
high quality opera.
(04:01):
We just didn't have it right.
We have a huge theater scenehere, a very good musical
theater scene, but we did nothave a lot of classical music
outside of the university andcertainly no full scale opera.
Just doesn't exist, and doesn'texist really in the Atlantic
region.
So myself and my friend, jenMatthews, who played piano for
me and I'm sure audiences willknow Jen, um she was we just
(04:26):
decided to start theorganization and we met for
lunch and it was like, oh, let'shave a.
And it started as a summerfestival.
It's like let's do a summerfestival, cause that's what we
both knew and that was thesystem.
Right, everyone, all singers,do summer festivals.
Um, and that's how it was born.
And we started with um a reallysmall budget.
I think the first year was$25,000.
And now we're over, I thinkwe're about 1.2 million, so it's
(04:51):
grown exponentially.
But also, what the organizationfirst did, which was to be a
summer festival, we quicklyrealized that we did not want to
be in the business of havingyoung, vulnerable singers pay us
money to do summer programswhen they could least afford it.
They needed the advantages ofworking with an organization,
but you know, the idea that theyhad to pay for it and often
(05:12):
some of these summer programsare in a considerable amount of
money was not what we should bein the business to do.
So the company very quicklychanged to be.
You know, then we we had a kindof a mixed blend of older
repertoire, more standardrepertoire, and we used to have
younger singers and, and what Iwould consider, you know,
(05:33):
longtime lifers, as they say,the opera business, and so we
had a mix of that.
And then that changed as wellto be.
We really had a strategic lookat what we thought the company
could best be served doing, andthat is not traditional work.
So now I think we're theforemost commissioner and
(05:54):
presenter of new work, bothlarge and small, because we do
smaller arias digitally as well,and we also do new commissions.
So we currently have three newlarge-scale commissions underway
one musical, two operas, uh,one actually, which is having
its world premiere, uh, thisweek, uh, in san francisco in
co-production with operaparallel and opera omaha um, and
(06:15):
then a musical and an operabesides that and numerous
smaller scale commissions forthe digital uh, digital world.
So that's what we do now.
So you know it's it's been.
Um I now, so you know it's been, I would say when I you know,
when Jen and I first startedOpera on the Avalon, we really
did what we knew and that's whatwe focused on.
And since then the journey hasbeen what's missing.
(06:38):
Where can we fit in the operalandscape?
How best can we serve thecommunity?
How best can we serve singers?
Michael Jones (06:47):
And that's the work that we're doing now.
Well, there's a lot for me tounpack in that and I want to
come back, but I actually wantto take a brief moment to
remember Jennifer Matthews, whopassed away a couple of years
ago.
Jenny was also my accompanistwhen I was in university, so she
played for me as wellaccompanist when I was in
(07:09):
university so she played for meas well and she had a massive
impact on my life and I rememberher both very fondly and I
remember what a dynamo she was.
It's interesting that almosteveryone I've spoken to that
comes out of the music scene inNewfoundland had some connection
with Jenny, and so she's dearlymissed.
(07:31):
And it's really nice to hearabout another one of the things
that she helped to begin inOpera Avalon.
Cheryl Hickman (07:37):
She really did.
And it's funny because when shepassed one of her dear friends
who lives in the Corner Brookarea, where Jenny eventually
settled, which is where herfamily was from, she had a
catalog, like a wealth of allthis music and you know all the
Nico Castel books and stuff thatyou know it's huge investments
and she called me and said Idon't really have anyone out
(07:58):
here who would like those.
Do you want them?
And I was like, yes, so I haveher almost her entire catalog of
music.
And I was like, yes, so I haveher almost her entire catalog of
music.
And I just looked at it twodays ago because we're doing a
piece from for digital work, andand I was like, let's call out
Jenny, so Jenny is in our officein spirit every day.
She's, yeah, she's beside meevery day, she's just in a
(08:20):
different form.
Michael Jones (08:22):
Well, it's a lovely memory to have, so I'm
glad you have that Now youstarted.
You said you started withlargely standard repertory, but
now you are really focusing oncommissions and new work.
Cheryl Hickman (08:37):
Yeah, so we used to do.
You know, again, I think we'retold in our business that let's
do the war horses.
They sell the best, right?
Carmen's, bohème's.
I mean, if you look at thecurrent repertoire, that's being
done.
It's what people traditionallythink fill bums in seats.
That did not work for us and Ithink it's because our community
(08:57):
doesn't have a history of opera, right?
So when we started to do that,I remember Bohème really did not
sell.
The first almost sold out showwe had was Dead man Walking,
because I think audiences knewit from popular culture.
So Sound of Music sold like wedid.
Sound of Music, things thatthey could have read or seen in
(09:19):
another way.
They had great affinity for,they had great affinity for.
And then we decided um, we had aspecial project, uh, for the
2016, which was the hundredthanniversary of Beaumont Hamill,
and we decided to commission ourfirst piece.
I had no idea what I was doing.
It's a lot of trial, trial anderror and uh and again, I
(09:40):
recommend that hardly sometimeswhen you don't know what you're
doing Um and again it this isfunny.
You mentioned Jenny Matthews.
Um, mike Cavanaugh was a hugepart of Opera on the Avalon at
the beginning too, and he reallywas so generous, as he often
was with colleagues around theworld, in saying, uh, how like,
(10:01):
really lifting our game up right, getting uh.
He was just an amazing presenceand we would not also be here
without Mike.
So he was originally on thatproject and it just didn't gel
and and Glenislation came inafterwards.
But Mike was enough of aprofessional to say I'm not the
person for this project and verygraciously stepped away in a
(10:23):
place that I don't think mostpeople would have done Right.
So that was, you know.
Those are the things that Ilook back on that now and I
realized what a sacrifice thatwas for him.
But he did it for the better ofthe project and the company and
that was a great learninglesson.
So that was our first commissionand we had massive sold out
audiences.
(10:43):
The governor general came.
It was a very big, very bigdeal for us, and then it didn't
cost as much as I thought it wasgoing to right, because you
always hear about howprohibitively expensive new work
is and I thought, well, this isnot much more outside the
commissioning fees than normalshows you know cost us.
(11:04):
So why can't we do this model,which was probably incredibly
naive, but it worked for us.
And then I started to realize,as we started to do, different
rep audiences for us were veryengaged with new work, work that
told our stories, work thatthey resonated, resonated with
them, and so we've completelymoved away from anybody's work
(11:26):
except our own.
So and covid was a big jump inthat too, because, um, we very
quickly decided to stay workingduring covid, you know, we
socially distanced but did aproject called the rock reforms,
which was all outside, still isum, and that was a way for us
to stay invested in ourcommunities and still hire
(11:46):
artists.
And that also then became ahuge change for the company,
because we decided to invest indigital as well, so in new
commissions and so.
So that's where we are now.
Michael Jones (11:58):
Well, I think it's interesting that you say
Bohem didn't sell and yet youcan sell new works, which is
could be a lesson for some ofour bigger companies.
But I actually think is moreimportantly, it's a lesson in
knowing your community, knowingwho your audience is and what
(12:20):
your role in the community is.
Is that fair?
Cheryl Hickman (12:22):
I think that's fair and I was at a conference
years ago, I think, thatAssociation for Opera in Canada
had, and I remember one of thespeakers said the role of an
arts organization is not for youto say here's what I have, I'm
going to give it to you.
My audience, my community, thecommunity should lead that it's
what they need, not what I need.
(12:43):
And our community was veryclearly saying I do not want to
see a bohemian.
I remember we did Tosca, forexample, and when we do titles
because we want to make surethat people can understand what
everyone's saying and and thetitles are what they are and
people laughed in.
We were really taken aback byit because some of those titles
(13:03):
are ridiculous, right, it's,it's opera for an opera and
educated and I and I sayeducated only in that the it's
the tradition of their lives.
They took that at face valueand it was what it was For an
audience just coming into it.
They laughed because it isridiculous, right, like some of
the things you're saying arelike I cannot believe somebody's
singing that on stage.
(13:23):
So I think traditionalaudiences suspend their
disbelief.
Our audiences did not, so.
For them it was like this isridiculous.
Our audiences did not.
So for them it was like this isridiculous.
Um, so we really, I think um,listen to our community, what
(13:44):
they wanted, uh, what they felthad value to them.
And also, I think we had a hardlook at um, I'm never going to
be able to compete financiallywith the COC I don't want to.
But I also don't think thatanyone needs another version of
my flute.
That's not the role I need tobe playing in the landscape of
Canadian opera producers andpresenters.
But I think what we do need,and what I see lacking in our
(14:05):
country, is a lack of new work,the lack of work with new, young
artists.
That's, to me, what's reallydesperately needed.
I look at musical theater, whichhas, you know, the reason why
musical theater continues tothrive is because they're
continually producing andcommissioning new pieces.
Opera.
For some reason, we've decidedthat that's just a non-starter.
(14:28):
So you know, and now I thinkit's changing a little bit.
But you know, I think it needsto change dramatically we're not
going to keep our art formalive if we just decide that
we're going to keepregurgitating what we already
know but make it a bit differentin the staging.
It's ludicrous.
So you know, just because youwant to sexy up Don Giov about,
(14:55):
yes, we can rely on putting bumsin seats with 95 carbons every
year, but is that what's bestfor the art form?
And I think we have to take theaudience along with insisting
on new work.
And it's not the fact that it'sa success or not, it's just
that we're trying.
And, to me, what I love aboutlive theater is it's the
(15:15):
collective humanity of both thepeople on stage and the audience
.
So it's how people react in amoment.
That is a thrill that I don'tcare how much, because we do a
lot of digital work, which Ithink is a needed component in
the work that we do, but nothingwill ever place a human being
doing what I call, you know,opera, supernatural feats on
(15:37):
stage.
That's really, to me, the youknow, the zenith of what we're
doing.
I think all of it has to existtogether, but it's, you know,
the way.
Now even streamers aredisrupting the current landscape
.
We have to start thinking aboutyou know how we disrupt our
current landscape, but I don't,I don't think continuing with
(16:00):
you know, a 90% diet of what'sput.
You know, people in theaudiences made them come to the
theater before.
I think we really need to havea hard look at whether, in the
long run, that because ournumbers keep going down and down
and down and down and we haveto stop that slide well, and I
will come back to your videowork because I do want to talk
(16:23):
about that.
Michael Jones (16:23):
but but let's talk.
You have a commission, aco-commission that's opening
this week in san francon Keeper.
It's the composer's DavidHanlon, with a libretto by
Stephanie Fleshman, and it opensthis week at Opera Parallel in
San Francisco.
I want to talk about the piece,but then I also want to talk a
(16:46):
little bit about theco-commission model and why
that's working for you.
But let's first talk about youknow you say you do pieces that
will appeal to your audience.
We tell our stories, so tell mewhat drew you to the Pigeon
Keeper as a story.
Cheryl Hickman (17:03):
So I think we're living in really difficult
times, right, and the PigeonKeeper is a story about othering
other people and it's a storyabout immigration.
And you know a stranger who,like all of the things that
we're currently dealing withright, and how we've decided
that some people are deservingof good lives and others are not
, depending on where they wereborn.
(17:24):
So the Pigeon Keeper is reallyabout what we decide as a
community when we welcome othersinto it, which and to me, being
a Canadian, because we'rehaving our own discussion right
now about what it is to be aCanadian that you know we are a
country built on the idea ofmulticulturalism, that we are
made better by diversity.
(17:45):
We're a stronger community byhow diverse it is, and I firmly
believe that, and the PigeonKeeper is, at its heart, a story
about that.
It also has a children's chorusin it, which I love.
It's only a small cast, threeperformers, but it really is how
we can evolve as a society,when we deserve that, or when we
(18:06):
decide that all people aredeserving of respect and meeting
people where they are, and that, to me, is really what the
pigeon keeper is.
So I think it's a worthwhilelesson, especially now we're
living in a time that I thinkmultiple countries have decided
that other people are the reasonwhy they're not doing well in
life.
Right, it's whateverdemographic or race you decide
(18:29):
is the problem for you notsucceeding, and I think we have
to push back against that, and Ithink how we do that is through
art and through culture andthrough having those discussions
and showing it on stage.
So that's why we were really.
I think when I first looked atthe libretto and the score, it
struck a chord in me, especiallynow where we're living in such
(18:53):
divisive, hateful times, thatthe only way I can push back
against that is to invest andcreate art that firmly says I do
not believe that that is thecase.
Michael Jones (19:04):
And it is opening this week.
You have some of your singersdown there.
Cheryl Hickman (19:08):
So we have an emerging artist program.
We have five young artists thisyear.
So we also and again becausewe're small, um, we often
partner with uh.
We had a wonderful partnershipthis year and are continuing to
have.
Some of our singers have goneto Pacific opera Victoria to
cover roles there because, again, we want to give them as much
opportunity as they can.
(19:29):
And then two of our youngsingers, um are in San Francisco
right now covering two rolesand then they'll be there for
opening night.
I will not be because I've madethe decision.
It's I don't really want to betraveling to the US right now.
I value our US partnerships andyou know Opera Parallel is a
like minded, wonderful company,but I do not feel right now that
(19:51):
I want to be.
You know, spending money in theUnited States.
Michael Jones (19:54):
The partnership with you said with Opera
Parallel, I think there's Omaha.
Cheryl Hickman (20:00):
Opera and Santa Fe Opera.
So Santa Fe Opera has thiswonderful initiative where they
often commission new work butthey don't always present it,
which I think is so.
You know, sometimes the hardpart or the most expensive part
is the commissioning or findingwork, or deciding.
You know what you want, therepertoire, and because, again,
like I would love to justcommission and maybe not always
(20:24):
present, but that's so, wepartnered with them and and then
with two other wonderfulpartners, opera Omaha and Opera
Parallel.
So it will go to Opera Omahanext and then we'll have the
(20:49):
Canadian premiere in 2027 withour Canadian artists.
Michael Jones (20:52):
Which is amazing because it's an opera that,
therefore, has already bookedmultiple presentations in
different cities, which I thinkis a real challenge for how we
create work.
I think because there is acertain cachet to presenting the
premiere of a work that it'ssometimes it's sometimes even
(21:14):
when we do commission easier toget that first production than
to get it presented a secondtime because it's sexy, right?
Cheryl Hickman (21:22):
the world premiere is oh, I'm having a
real premiere, whatever, I'mstill getting a Canadian
premiere like I don't.
I'm not wedded to that.
But certainly co-productionslessen the financial burden and
I do think a lot of companieshave this idea of how
prohibitively expensive new workis.
It's not right.
So it's an investment in yourcommunity and your organization
(21:44):
and it lives forever, right,like long after I'm gone.
I will be if I never doanything.
In my career I have helped tomake other artistic work
possible that lives forever.
I'm okay with that.
Michael Jones (21:56):
That sounds like a great goal to have.
So it's coming to you in 2027.
Yes, and plans before then withOpera on the Avalon.
So right now we're On stage.
We're going to come to yourvideo stuff in a second.
Cheryl Hickman (22:10):
So right now we're doing Last year we had a
huge project about Newfoundlandjoining Confederation, which we
called 75 on 75, which was amassive digital project, and
this year we're doing anotherone.
So we do like fall festivalsand it's not full opera
presentations, it's, you know,classical music in recital.
(22:31):
So we have a fall festival andwe'll have workshops for the new
musical with Rene Orth andKanika Ambrose sorry, the opera
with Rene Orth and KanikaAmbrose.
And then we do opera with ReneeOrth and Kanika Ambrose, and
then we're doing a new musicalwith Britta Johnson.
So we'll be workshopping all ofthose over the next few years.
But our next main stage workoutside of digital is not till
2027.
(22:52):
And again, that was thedecision that we made, that if
we didn't have the ability to doshows every year.
So then after that we'll a newshow on stage 27, 28, 29,
because development costs a lotof money, takes a lot of time to
do it correctly.
So we had to make sure that ouraudiences still knew we were
here, still were engaging withus, and for us that has been our
(23:15):
digital engagement.
So, no matter, you know whatwe're doing.
We just don't disappear for twoyears and they're thinking
where are we Right.
So it's been a way for us tostay.
Michael Jones (23:26):
I would actually say more people have come to us
through our digital work thanthe work that we've done in
theatre While I've been toNewfoundland and I would
encourage any of our listenersto actually go to St John's and
to Newfoundland, because it'struly a magical place to visit.
(23:47):
I was really fortunate to comethere, but many of our listeners
won't be able to make thatjourney.
Traveling to St John's isactually quite a commitment from
practically anywhere in Canada,so many won't be able to do
that, but they still have theopportunity to engage with Opera
(24:07):
on the Avalon.
There is UTA TV UTA being theacronym for Opera on the Avalon
which you can get to on yourwebsite.
It's completely free.
I know that.
All I had to do was Iregistered there and then it let
me into this entire bank ofamazing videos.
So why don't you tell us aboutyour video work that people can
(24:29):
see at operaontheavaloncom?
Cheryl Hickman (24:32):
So I will say this kind of goes back to our
place of and I think this talksabout, you know, colonial
structures and all this kind ofstuff that for too long in our
country we have decided whatgood art is and who could do
good art, right.
So usually it meant you had tobe in Vancouver, montreal or
Toronto and everybody else wasexempt from that, right?
I think now we realize thatthat is absolutely foolishness.
(24:55):
I'm not doing the same artthey're doing in Toronto.
Mine is different.
It doesn't make it better orworse.
The same art they're doing inToronto, mine's different.
It doesn't make it better orworse.
And I think how we try to engagein Newfoundland Labrador is a
very particular place that has avery long history of culture,
of theater, of art, of poetry,of visual art.
And I would say how Canadiansknow us or first have come to us
(25:18):
is through our culturalidentity.
So if you look at CBC, there'sa ton of Newfoundlanders on that
.
There's multiple shows.
You know, gordon Pinsent, Ithink, was how a lot of
Canadians would have firstfigured out who you know
Newfoundlanders, labradorianswere.
We have a really, you know wewere our own nation until 1949.
So when we joined Canada.
(25:38):
We did so because we paid backour war debt to Britain and we
were bankrupt, not because wecouldn't govern ourselves.
We honored a pledge to pay backBritain and we did so.
And I don't think Canadians areaware a lot of Canadians are
aware of that history.
So when I would go to Torontoand and uh, I remember people
would say to me proudly likethey were giving me a compliment
(26:00):
, oh you don't have an accent.
And I would think what doesthat mean?
Like I've never heard peoplesay to Irish people proudly, oh
you don't sound Irish, and smileat you like they were
complimenting you.
So I think it was.
You know, canadians were alwaystold when Newfoundland joined
that we had to and we weredesperate and they took us like
(26:21):
a charity case and poor Canada.
So, and to me that was not howI understood growing up as a
Newfoundland and Labradorian,because we are an incredibly
proud, educated, diverse groupof people and it's through
culture that I found that prideand I also think that's how
we've had a renaissance of whowe are as a province, through
(26:43):
CODCO or through Mary Walsh orthrough, you know, our musicians
, mark Fewer, the violinist, allof these people.
So that is why I think I reallypush back about the idea that
only major centers produce goodart.
So that was where we decided wewanted to really showcase the
(27:04):
province, who we were, who ourartists were, because, again, as
you said, people can't get hereright.
And we started our Digital theRock Performs in COVID.
When we had to pay people, wegot lots of grant money, as most
organizations did, and we putit right out the door and paid
as many artists as we could andwe thought, well, how can we do
that safely Because we couldn'tbe in rooms.
So we David Howells, our mainphotographer and cinematographer
(27:29):
, and Roger Monder, director weall decided that we were going
to hire as many artists as wecould do videos
multidisciplinary, not justopera singers and collaborate
with those artists on a piecethat they chose and to film it
outside where we could sociallydistance.
And that's how it started.
Now we're doing documentaries.
We have a new documentarycoming out about a project that
(27:51):
we did going right up the coastfrom St John's to Labrador.
So we're doing not only shortvideos, we're actually doing, uh
, small feature films anddocumentaries about that work.
So it's really changedeverything that we do with our
organization.
So we've really decided, youknow, to work in different
genres, multidisciplinary, uh,everything, and that's how, uh,
(28:17):
I think for us a significantamount of thinking strategically
as a company, that we justwanted to change the work that
we were doing.
And also, like, when I thinkabout how visually you can see
opera in Canada, you reallycan't right, we're really hemmed
in by Canadian Actors' Equityregulations.
It's very difficult for us tosee live stage and that's
(28:40):
problematic and I think we haveto deal with that.
But short videos we couldeasily do and that's what we do.
So, like, if I want to seetomorrow's show that Vancouver
Opera is doing, I can't see itRight Because it's prohibitively
expensive for Vancouver Operato bring that to me.
Same thing with streaming.
We stream all our shows andFebruary our last world premiere
was streamed around the world.
(29:01):
I think we had something like33 countries.
So we are, we are being able toenlarge our community through
that work, both from liveperformance and also digital
recordings that we do.
So now we're at the point wherecommissioning like I can't
commission enough large scaleworks, we just don't have the
resources to do it.
So now we're commissioningsmaller scale ones.
(29:21):
So last year for again, ouremerging artists program because
young artists need to learn howto engage with living composers
and librettists.
They each got to work withRenee Orth, jennifer Higdon,
jonathan Rowe, canadian composer, lila Palmer, the librettist,
and Mark Adomo and MedoeChristie, who was one of our
(29:42):
young artists who also wrote alibretto.
So that's, you know.
That's where we actually feel.
Now we can start enlargingagain the work that we're doing
through doing large scale andsmall scale commissions, both in
the digital world and on themain stage commissions, both in
(30:05):
the digital world and on themain stage, and just talk
specifically about these, thesesmall works that you're
commissioning for your youngartists.
Michael Jones (30:10):
Um, the name of that series again, just we call
it the emerging voices seriesemerging voices series.
if someone and I mentioned youcan go to opera on the avaloncom
and watch all of these series,both the Rock Performs the
Emerging Voices series.
Someone is starting and I'm notasking you to pick a favorite
child because I don't thinkthat's fair.
But if someone who's going tothe site for the first time and
(30:34):
you had to pick one of theEmerging Voices videos for them
to start with as an introductionto the series, what would you?
What would you recommend?
Cheryl Hickman (30:43):
so I would say, as I just said to you in the
answer, sometimes, you know, um,we asked for all the composers
and librettos to come up with afour minute video.
Marc adamos was eight minutesand at first we almost had a
complete panic attack becausethat means, you know, you need
longer film time, all all ofthese things.
And we tried to keep it to.
You know, videos of under fourminutes, because we thought
(31:05):
that's what audiences wanted.
And, uh, anyway, we thoughtthat, so, mark, so I could cut
it.
We thought, no, because that'syou know.
He said that's what the piecewas, that's what we went with.
It was a huge joy.
So for us, that was again alesson in the piece dictates
what the piece is going to beand it's no need for me to stand
in the creative way of thatright.
(31:25):
So and it was again that's nowbeen a great starting point for
our filmmakers has said thisyear well, we're going to throw
out all those ideas of how longany of that's going to be and
the emerging voices series we'redoing this year.
We're actually envisioning itas a 30 minute small film so
that all of the pieces willintersect into each other.
Uh, but it won't exist as fourseparate videos.
(31:48):
It'll be 30 minutes of a ofsome type of film, which of
which Lisa has writtenindividual arias, but also a
longer narrative.
So that's.
You know, that's exciting.
So it was a very good, I think,for us, a really good way to
start again being creativelyflexible and not being stuck in
(32:09):
all ways of thinking.
And then we all said, well, whydid we ever come up with that
four minute idea?
Anyway, and again, I think it'sbecause most people consume art
in that way.
But also, you know, if you lookat, people are consuming
TikToks in 30 seconds.
I'm not doing 30 second like,forget it.
If you, if you cannot do thediscipline of sitting down and
watching a video, it's I'm notyour, I'm not yours, right, it's
(32:31):
, you're not for me and I'm notfor you.
So I, I think we're, we're justgoing to experiment more and
see what happens out of that.
And that was a good lesson.
So I think in terms of that one, because it was our first year
of doing it.
They're all my favoritechildren, but that was a way for
me to again think outside ofthe box.
Michael Jones (32:50):
And then of all of them.
Cheryl Hickman (32:52):
I would say one of my favorite ones was our
partnership with Eastern Owl,which is an indigenous group of
women from Newfoundland,labrador.
They're an amazing, amazingband.
They're not opera singers, butyou know the rock performance.
Newfoundland and Labrador isoperatic in its landscape.
So we you know, we don't careabout that label either and they
(33:13):
did.
They wrote a beautiful songcalled Henrietta, about a woman
in Newfoundland and Labrador whois still missing, who was, you
know, murdered and they've neverfound her.
And all the proceeds of thevideo we encourage people to
donate to the Foundation forMurdered and Missing Indigenous
(33:33):
Women and and that video is nowpart of a traveling exhibition
with the Winnipeg Museum ofHuman Rights and it's going into
the United States.
And so you know, these are alsothings that it doesn't occur to
us when we start these projectsof where they could end up.
But I remember when the museumcalled us about this partnership
you know, life is funny, right?
(33:54):
I thought if you could everhave told me that a video we
would be doing for a small COVIDproject would end up there, I
would not have thought that.
And doing for a small COVIDproject would end up there, I
would not have thought that.
Michael Jones (34:04):
And that's how you can have an effect in your
community.
You just spoke briefly aboutdonations.
When we first, when COVID firststruck and many performing arts
companies moved to virtual andonline offerings, one of the big
questions was how do youmonetize it?
And I talked about the factthat all of this material is
available through your websitefor free.
(34:25):
How do you monetize it, cheryldo?
Cheryl Hickman (34:28):
you.
I don't think everything needsto be thought of in the lens for
us about how much money can Imake on that, because that's not
what I'm doing as an artist.
Right, don't get me wrong.
I want to balance my books andwe always start with um, I don't
spend money I don't have, and Ithink we've been successful and
never run.
The only time I think we've everin 16 years, run a deficit was
(34:49):
in COVID, when we decided to payevery artist, and that was a
decision our board made thatmorally, we had to do that, so
we ran a deficit.
I was happy to do it because itmeant people ate, uh pay their
rent for the year.
So I think when we decided todo the digital thing, we did not
want people to have the barrierof oh, you can only watch this
(35:09):
or have a paywall, because whatwas good for us was that it
allowed us to enlarge ourcommunity, to be seen anywhere
around the world, to be acultural ambassador, and that's
not something, um, you know, ifthe money was going to be a
barrier, I didn't want to havethat happen.
What we did do was say at theat the end of every video and
(35:31):
within either, the rock performs, if it's on youtube or within
udah tv, there's please, youknow, if you feel so inclined,
please donate, and people do sothat's been, you know, and
depending on the video it variesand that's been wonderful for
us.
So it's been a different way ofmonetizing it, so to speak.
(35:51):
And then, you know, some peoplecan't.
They want to watch the videobut they really can't afford it.
That's okay, too, right, andthe ones who do can't so.
But I also think it's helpedour work with our foundations
and they see the work that we'redoing and we've had a huge jump
I think we're over 500 percentin our foundation foundational
(36:12):
donations, because they see thework that we're doing in terms
of, you know, inclusion andmaking our work diverse and
reaching out to as manycommunities as possible, and
they're supporting that as well.
Michael Jones (36:25):
I think that there are some really valuable
lessons there.
I'm conscious of the time, I'mconscious of your time, so I
want to end today with somereally really sort of speed
round questions.
So just the first answer thatcomes to your mind and a few
answers so you're relaxing.
It's the end of the day.
You're sitting in your space athome, you're in your
(36:47):
comfortable clothes, whatever.
I won't ask what you're wearing.
Um, I call it soft clothes.
They're back.
You're in your soft clothes, mysoft clothes yep where are you
sitting?
in your house?
Cheryl Hickman (36:58):
uh, when at that time my living room I have some
, usually my living room.
Michael Jones (37:05):
Windows.
Cheryl Hickman (37:07):
Two windows.
But what I usually do when Icome home is I check Instagram
because I love Instagram justfor like pretty things.
I hate Facebook or any of that.
Twitter, god forbid.
I usually check that.
And then I'm a huge needlepointer, which I know so like I
love all the.
I love crochet, I love needlepoint, I love painting, I love
(37:29):
puzzles.
So then I usually read I, youknow, check Instagram, or I do
needle point, yeah.
Or I watch some stupid comedywith somebody like Will Ferrell
which makes me beer or adateline.
Anyone who's getting murdered,I'm up for that too.
Michael Jones (37:43):
And what are you eating and drinking as you relax
?
Cheryl Hickman (37:46):
Oh God, I know it's terrible, but I love real
Coke.
I'm not a drinker, but realCoke I do love.
And, um, I don't know if youhave them in the rest of Canada,
(38:06):
but I love Humpty, dumptyCheesies, which are the soft
ones.
So that's my junk.
Oh, and there's, there's awonderful, uh bakery here that
does gelato ice cream place andthey have one called pride cake
which is so good.
Um, yeah, and it's, I don'tknow what it is.
It's like some every color ofthe rainbow cake.
It's pretty good well, that'ssummer, it's pride cake.
If it's the winter, it's acheesy okay.
Well, that's that's good I likemy ice cream diverse.
(38:27):
There you go well.
Michael Jones (38:30):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm sure that my our listenersare enjoying this just as much
as I have.
It is a pleasure to talk to you, cheryl.
It's really interesting tolearn about opera on the Avalon
and I hope that as many of ourlisteners as possible will
actually come to visit you sothey can understand the magic of
(38:50):
St John's, they can go to therooms, they can be there in the
late summer, early fall, for,like festival after festival,
it's really quite wonderful timeto go to St John's but also so
that they know they can checkyou out online to see your
videos, to see UTA TV and to usemaybe use that as they go home
(39:14):
tonight and get into their softclothes.
Cheryl Hickman (39:16):
Well, you know what?
Well, you know what.
In all honesty, as I do thiswork and I go across the country
to see other companies, Ireally encourage Canadians to
visit every part of it.
(39:37):
They've realized how special itis and I think that's really
important for us now, asCanadians, is to think about,
because I think we've beenthrough our own time of how
divisive the country has become,that we are better by everybody
in it, how diverse we are, thedifferent cultures that we have,
you know, and to stop thinkingof the negativity that has been,
(40:16):
I think, for the last few years, very strong in the Canadian
Opera Company, but we also needthose smaller ones.
We need to all celebrate themas Canadians, and I encourage
all of us to do so and tosupport your cultural industry.
Michael Jones (40:29):
Absolutely.
And on those words I think wewill close.
Thank you to our listeners forjoining us for this issue of
Opera Glasses, this episode ofOpera Glasses.
I am your host, michael Jones.
I've been chatting with CherylHickman and we are pleased to
bring this to you from OperaCanada Magazine and we hope that
(40:50):
you will join us for the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening.
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