Hansel and Gretel and Ted and Alice and Change That Needs to Happen

With their guest Dr. Nyri Bakkalian, Anna and Krista discuss a funny yet problematic PDQ Bach piece that opens up a beautiful discussion on reclaiming and refreshing works that wouldn't fly in today's society. Is it possible? Absolutely, and it's starting to happen.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
And hello and happy weekend everyone,how folks, and welcome to the Opera
Trash Podcast. I am Christa andI'm Anna and we have I'm not.
As you can see, we haveour special guests this week are Resident History

(00:22):
Dyke, doctor Nairy Recallien and weare as promised. We did promise this.
We have promises, uh as aspecial treat so we have her today.
And uh, before we get intothat, you know what, there
was a bit of news. Nowof course I had to I have to

(00:44):
right off the top, I haveto say, your nice is sick again.
Oh yeah, he had he so, yeah, he has a toddler
and he was he on the nineteenthof January, he he uh formed three
songs at an outdoor memorial seller ceremonyfor a long time FC Byron player.

(01:11):
And I don't think he was properlyclothed, like, I don't think he
was a bundled up enough and JesusChrist on us so let's see here,
I think, yeah, because he'she's sick. He had to postpone his
concerts in Nate postpone. He didn'tcancel them out right, he rescheduled them,

(01:32):
but he uh, he postponed inNaples and Munich. So ones could
be in March. One's gonna bein May. But let me see.
I know there is other stuff Iwanted to mention. Let's see here.
Um, let's see here, becauseI know the oh. Carlos Kalmar sues

(02:02):
the Cleveland Institute of Music for twentyfive million dollars. Yeah, Conductor Carlos
Kalmar, and guess why. ConductorCarlos Kalmar issuing the Cleveland Institute of Music
for defamation. The former principal conductorof the institute is seeking twenty five million

(02:23):
dollars and alleging defamation from a sexualharassment investigation that later cleared him. The
conductor also accused the school of ruininghis reputation. The law suit noted many
students and faculty misinformed as they werepublicly protested Kalmar. Kalmar, the school

(02:43):
playcated and surrendered to the misinformed andmisled mob. Despite having been cleared of
sexual misconduct and without any administrative proceedings, the school stripped meister Kalmar of his
duties and placed him on involuntary administrativeleave, prohibiting him from coming on camp.
The federal suit was filed in theNorthern District of Ohio's Eastern Division on

(03:04):
January thirty first. According to VanMagazine and Susan Rothman, the chair of
CIM's boarder trustees, disclosed the lawsuitto conservatory employees in an email that read
CIM will vigorously defend itself against theallegations, but will not issue any further
comment on the matter at this time. Calmar was accused of sexual harassment in
twenty twenty three. The accusation wasmade by a student who stated that Calmar

(03:29):
behaved inappropriately. The school took immediatelyaction and asked students to come forward if
they had witnessed or experienced sexual harassmentby Calmore, principal conductor and director of
orchestral Studies and the conducting program.The investigation led to journalists and Midget with
that's her name, Midget with Ettedeclining an honorary doctorate from the school in

(03:52):
August. In August, the conductorwas clear to the accusations, but in
October he was put on a leaveof apps. So I asked you,
sir, what were they fucking supposedto do while the investigation was going on?

(04:13):
Yeah? Seriously, like, dofuck my good sir. Yeah,
really, let's see here. Nowthere's somebody who should go rock climbing without
a spotter. Yeah, I'm tryingto see here. Let's see. Uh,

(04:35):
let's see. I think there wasother stuff, and there was something
about the English National Opera. Ithought, let me see here, because

(04:58):
I swear there was something. Let'ssee. Let's see. Is up to
any shucker today? Yeah? Ihave. He's been quiet. Wait,
he's actually been behaving. That kindof scares me. That kind of scares
me. Behaving. You know,something's up. Yeah. Oh, there's

(05:23):
good news from the English National Opera. Uh. Yeah. We were talking
about them, you know, potentiallygoing on strike and that would have been
this weekend. The English National Operahas announced that proposed strikes have been postponed
as the company and the unions havecome to an agreement in a statement.

(05:44):
In a statement, the company said, we are pleased to confirm that,
following constructive conversations with both Equity andMusicians Union, the proposed industrial action,
I love that the proposed industrial actionhas been suspended and the opening night of
The Inmate's Tale on February first,we'll go ahead as planned. It added,
we have reached an interim settlement withEquity that we hope to confirm following

(06:09):
the completion of our ongoing negotiation withmusicians. With the Musicians Union, we
thank them for the constructive talks overthe past few weeks. We will now
commence a period of mediation with theMusicians Union as we seek to reach a
similar agreement and to finalize the detailsof both offers. Iano wants to thank
all of our audiences for their continuedsupport. The news comes after the chorus

(06:30):
members of the English National Opera votedone hundred percent in favor of strike action
in a ballot conducted by its union, Equity. So they so they avoided
the fucker out and vite out.Let's see here. I think that's I
think that's it. Deanna Damos gotan upper respiratory infection. Oh no,

(07:00):
damn oh, let's see here.Uh. Oh, by the way,
uh mister and Trupco. He's startinghis own management company. Oh. Thanks,
Hope it tanks, Yeah, hopeit tanks. Well that's all the

(07:24):
do. So. I think Ithink after we caught up on that massive
a couple of weeks ago, onthe massive news dump, I think it's
thinned out or people are behaving foronce. I don't know. I'm still
giggling about the whole thing with theintendant. Oh yeah, that was so
ridiculous. Yeah, I wanted tospend more than I'm supposed to, but

(07:47):
you guys will let me. SoI'm flouncing like okay, it's like okay,
doctor, goofy h. Let's seehere, so let me pull up.
All right. So that is thenews. So we are going to

(08:07):
get onto our cause today we aregoing to talk about p. D Q.
Bock and more specifically Uh, apiece of he wrote called uh Hansel
and Gretel and Ted at Alice,an opera in one unnatural act. Yeah,

(08:37):
Hickley number two to the N minusone written for bargain countertenor, harpsichord,
verry, barrytone, calliope and piano. That man was a genius in
the world is less without him.Yes, oh my god. All right,

(09:05):
So and I re because I can'tfind anything like to bring it up.
But okay, direk, go aheadto sort of give a give a
give an outline. I guess.Okay. So this is a product of
the early nineteen seventies. Now,when I was growing up in the nineties

(09:26):
in New York. My father hadquite the assortment of LPs. And you
know, my father, of courseis a pastor of some renown in the
Armenian Evangelical community. But you knowfrom his from his you know, younger
days in college, you know,he has some of these these records that

(09:46):
are a little bit more, shallwe say. Ribald, who like the
work of pickyback from the seventies andHansel and gretminint had a now was on
uh the intimate PDK Bach, whichI think was released by Vanguard in seventy

(10:11):
three. So the recording is fromFebruary twenty ninth, nineteen seventy two,
not long before, and it's it'sabout twenty minutes long, you know,
including the preamble by Hickley himself,and it's it's written as a he talks

(10:37):
about the great the great division betweenthe opera seria, which were the tragedies
and in histories, and the operafunnia and whether whether P. D.
Krewbac wanted Hanzel and Gretelin and tadAnalys to belonged to the category of opera
funnia as a matter of some conjecture. So it's you know, it's a

(11:00):
relatively compact work, you know,it's it's it's pretty quick. It's you
know, all of all of whattwo instruments, that's the the clappie and
the piano, and occasionally occasionally noNo three, there's the whistle, h

(11:22):
the police whistle whistle bras police.So, uh, it's this story about
Alice, a girl named Alice LuperDeutsche Land, who who is on the
run from her brother Hansel hunter,who is disguising himself by donning a wolf's

(11:46):
head, and along the way,uh Gretel. Uh, Well, I
tell you it's a it's it's complicated. It's complicated. There's also there's there's
there's uh uh, I'm getting itwrong. It's been a week. It's

(12:11):
been a real week anyway. ButHans the hunter and her brother Gretel,
and there's also this Alice who singwho who is uh disguising herself as a
monk. The monk is uh isuh in disguise and sings in aria called

(12:35):
et e specto uh spectors recreation atin unum dominos and checkers. But you
know that we we're for most ofthe the like the two thirds of the

(12:56):
of the story you know, wewe're under the impression that there's this mysterious
monk that Gretel is in love with. And then it turns out that the
monk is in fact Alice who andso you know, and and by the
end everybody lives happily ever after.But there's a doctor's examination along the way

(13:16):
that reveals that the monk is actuallyAlice, and uh, anyway, yeah,
complicated, it's it's it's sort ofoff the wall funny and uh uh.
The thing is for me, asa trans woman, I grew up

(13:43):
listening to this and now I hearthe queer phobia and mmm, because how
do we discover that the monk isactually Alice. Well, they go to
a doctor's examination and the you know, the doctor comes out and goes,

(14:05):
I hope you'll take this friendly advice. The news I have is not very
nice. Well, once your parentsfind you out there wring your necks for
your blood type is the same,but so's your sex. That's news to
you, I presume, and soon. And you can hear the audience
in the background laughing, and youknow it's so I can't not hear the

(14:30):
queer phobia. Yeah, it's it'splaying, it's playing outing someone as a
bit. Yeah no, that's that'sa big old fuck now. Yeah.
So so you know, I Iyou know, I think I think that
this is an important opportunity to likestop and and like talk a little bit

(14:52):
about, you know, the distinctionlike understanding that a work can be problematic
and still have you know, pointsthat are good work can obviously also not
to not be to your particular taste, but also can you know, you
can acknowledge that it's a you know, technically it's a you know, it's

(15:13):
a good you know, it's ait's a it's a masterful work. But
also just this question of you know, and I think, especially in the
contemporary milieu that we're in today,if we think a little bit about you
know, I think about there's anauthor. There's an author whose name I'm

(15:35):
not going to say, Mmma,we all know, we all know who
I'm talking about. Yes, anauthor who goes to you know, setting
aside for the moment, you know, our slipshot research and uh, you
know, racist tropes and such,of which there are uses her uses,

(15:58):
her wealth, who hurt a minorityover and over and over and over and
over you know, there's that,and then there's someone like Peter Shickley,
who you know, like, let'slet's give ourselves a little bit of understanding
here. This is you know,nineteen seventy two, this is post Stone

(16:19):
Wall. So to say, youknow, he was a product of his
time, I think you know thatthat that's an excuse that you know,
where's wears thin sometimes you know,yeah, it's in cases where be Yeah,
And so this this is in factafter Stonewall, you know, after

(16:40):
nineteen sixty nine and the big youknow, sea change moment in the fight
for queer rights in the twentieth centuryin the US. But you know,
I don't know where Peter Schickeley stoodon you know, queerness and trans rites.

(17:00):
But you know, to my knowledge, and I've you know, I've
enjoyed other works of his over theyears. You know, his PDQ bach
of is significant, there's a lotof it. But this is the only
one where I can see this sortof thing played up as a joke,

(17:23):
right, And there wasn't any ofit in the Abduction of Figure Out that
I could. I mean, doesit get transgressed? Does the PDQ back
over get transgressive? It does there'sa whole there's a whole other uh opera

(17:45):
that he did called Oedipus Texts,you know, the brother of the legendary
Rex who marries his mother Billy Joe, cast out of the Queen of the
Rodeo. You know, does itget transgressive, Yes, over and over.
But this is the only case ofsomething where it's it's queer phobia and

(18:07):
like outing played as a joke.And I think that we if we understand
that a good author can do somethinglike this and mess up that it's you
know, we can still sort oftake that and acknowledge it and still I
think appreciate the skill with which it'swritten, and you know, the way

(18:30):
that it introduces people to things thatthat like actual historical compositions that they might
not have otherwise been aware of.I mean, shit, this is you
know Hanseling redeland ten analysis is whyI became aware of the fact that the
real js Bach did you know,stuff like the coffee Cantata. Yeah.

(18:52):
Right, So you know, wewe can sort of like, you know,
say, all right, this wasbad, but this author didn't get
stuck on that. You know,they didn't turn into a one trick bigot
pony. They went all sorts ofother you know, they they took their
work and they went all sorts ofother places. And there's plenty that's good
and and worthy and interesting and funnyabout their work. But yeah, yeah,

(19:22):
uh so, with all of that, with all of that said,
yeah, it's it's it's a youknow, it's a short work. It's
you know, it's it's not terriblylong. It's you know, it's it
and and and I admit this isthe thing also that had a role in
my life in shaping who I becameas a podcaster. You know, I

(19:47):
my my delivery, I think that'ssort of the dead pan that I do
sometimes is very much influenced by Shickley'sintro of this opera, you know,
the an opera and one unnatural actShickling number two to the end minus one
definitely falls into the opera funny acategory, although whether Pinakubac intended it to

(20:10):
fall into that category is a matterof some conjecture, like that, that's
that sort of delivery that you mightthose who know my podcasting work might be
familiar with them, like that's that'sthat's something I got from here from this
specific thing so yeah, now youknow, my question to the two of
you is, you know, sinceyou're so much more red in opera than

(20:32):
I am, which is weird tosay, considering I'm not because there's a
lot more things that you're more readinthan I am, and it's weird to
know more about something than you do. I mean, think about it.
I'm a historian of Japan. Lasttime I was with y'all, we were
talking about the Cursed Kabuki and thetheater that caught on fire. You think

(20:56):
that you'd think that that would bea PDQ back bit. Yeah, it
almost sounds like it would be.Yeah, I was. Oh and and
let's not forget the racist wood cuttings, the racist yes, the racist against
Native Americans wood cuttings that are literallythe only thing that survives. But my
question to the two of you wouldbe, what what actual operas is this

(21:22):
perhaps resembling like what what is whatis your sense of like what what could
we do? Because there's a termin the in the publishing industry called comp
titles, right, oh yeah,like if you like like this, like
this, like this, what aresome of the comp titles of Hansel and

(21:44):
Gretel and tenn and alys. Ican only think of one, and it's
receiving the comp story. Oh god, it's the it's this, Yeah,
that is so, and that fallsunder the category of stupid funny. I

(22:06):
mean, there is a bit wherethe compt does dress as a woman,
and it's kind of play for lapsed, but only in the sense of like,
what was the what was the contact? Again? He was trying to
sneak in. He he was tryingto sneak into the castle. He happened.

(22:27):
What happened is that the all themen of the village left to go
to war, had left to goto war. The I think it's the
countesses. The countess's brother was leadingthe way, and the count has said
no men are allowed in the castle. All the women coming to the castle,
you know, and no men areallowed in there. And the cat

(22:49):
and the comp dori is is afucking horn dog. Okay, he's a
jag. He's a boner, yes, basically. So he starts off acting
like a holy man, like likeone of those grizzle holy men, and
he does and he gets out itokay, like as as he is.

(23:12):
That's not that's a wise man,that's my that's my it was his old
teacher, the head out of it. That's my student and he's a dick.
Yeah, So he devises a secondthing where he he and his his
entourage dressed like nuns to get intothe castle. And that's what happens.

(23:37):
He dresses nuns and then uh andthen the count he sneaks into the Countess's
bedroom, not realizing also that thehis his uh squire who is also in
love with who is also in lovewith the count this has also snuck into

(24:02):
the bedroom. And uh, there'sthis hilarious bit where the three of them
are in the bed together. Theydo this this trio and it's too funny,
like it's like it's like that italmost looks like a threesome in the
bed and uh. Then of coursethe then of course they get interrupted they

(24:26):
realize it's him and uh and thenhe gets he gets called out at the
end of the at the end ofthe opera and is and scent packing.
But it's the way it Likejan DiegoFlores was perfect for this. Uh,

(24:48):
as the as the count Gianna Damrauwas the countess, and I forget who
who the squire was was. Itwas it choice because it was definitely a
trousers rule. I think it wascho Yeah, I think it was.
Yeah, so the three, itwas the three of them, but it

(25:10):
was just actually did and the waythe staging was it looked like it was
a play within the opera. Soit was stage almost like a play within
the opera. But it was hilarious. That's the closest thing I can think
of too. Hansel and Gretelins hadanalys The other thing about that whole segment

(25:33):
he he made he outright tells Ithink his I think he alright tells his
his entrage. You know, we'regonna seek him, but you have to
behave yourselves, implying that you know, we're not here to pillage or anything
or anything. And then of coursethey get ripping drunk. Oh yeah,

(25:56):
yeah, the only thing they pillageis the alcohol. Mm hmm. So
there's a bunch of drunk nuns wanderingaround and falling asleep, sitting up basically.
Yeah. Yeah, So, Imean one could argue something possibly,

(26:18):
I mean, I'm straight, sothis is an area that I'm not I'm
gonna just say I'm not equipped tocatch everything that that it could be.
But it's it seems more of theof the sneaky bastard and of the sneaky

(26:42):
mischiefs bastard in disguised trope. Yeah, than anything. We're COVID. But
again, like I said, I'mstraight, and I like think think of
it, think of it this way, you know, think of it this
way. You know, some ofyour listeners may be familiar with my work,
and you know, in in Inin my first novel, in Great

(27:03):
Dawn, right, we have arange of people who are assigned female at
birth and are adopting male presentation andnames and joining the Union Army. Right.
Uh, we have Chloe who isa CIS woman but really wants to
go really wants to go kill ChattelSlavery dead. And and then we have

(27:33):
Simmons and Nate Yoda who are transmasculine people and see an opportunity to be
recognized as who they are. So, you know, revealing that someone is
not what they are presenting as isyou know, it's a complicated thing.
It's like, you know, there'sthere's the there's are we being? Are
we being? Are we being?You know? Is this is this a

(28:00):
means to an end? Is itlike a means? Is it a means
to a like a like a likea well not a nefarious end, but
like is it a means to likelike with to use again to use the
example of Great Dawn. Is itan expedient means as Chloe used, or
is it a means to being acknowledgedas yourself as her trans masculine comrades used.

(28:23):
You know, either way, it'snot a nice thing, you know,
obviously getting outed, getting revealed,like because you know, assume,
assume for a moment in Pequbac thatuh, you know, the the you
know, Okay, if we're gonnaread it as trans masculine person gets outed,
that's terrible. If we're gonna readit as a woman who's in disguise

(28:48):
to get away, which is alittle bit more like what it's played as,
uh, gets revealed and he's stillinto this other woman and it's getting
played it as a joke, youknow, as a lesbian. Like I
M, it's still bad. It'sstill bad. So but like we but

(29:11):
like my point, I guess oneof the things I'm trying to say here
is that we can we can likestop and think about this, you know,
like critically, and and and andand with some nuanced you know,
uh, so that we can wecan understand that, you know, because
this is stuff that still sneaks intopopular media. Yeah right, Uh there

(29:34):
was an entire generation of my fellowtrans women who were traumatized by how that
was used in ace Ventura. Yeah. Oh yeah, m m hm.
So you know, like the liketo to sort of put myself on on

(29:56):
back a little bit on track here. This friend of mine pointed out that
for works like this, there areways that you can sort of save it
and you can reclaim it, right, but they take different forms. Like
you're not going to like, youcan't pretend to the queer phobia isn't there,

(30:18):
right, So how do you doit? There are different ways of
doing that. You know, youget you get the you get a director
who's a little bit more you know, up on this sort of thing,
and you know, they may theymay arrange things such that maybe it's a
little bit rewritten, or you know, with the casting choices, it's a
little bit different. You know,I I'm not again, this is this

(30:45):
is this is this is a theatricalform that's beyond the usual purview. But
you know, I think about howI think about how in yeah, in
the Edo period women were banned fromkabuki mm hmm and from knowl and today

(31:10):
there's all sorts of things that peopleare creatively doing in terms of not only
obviously other women who are actors inboth, but also there's like ways of
reworking very old stories that open uproom a little bit more for some representation
that might have might not have beenthere before, some sensitivity that should have

(31:33):
been there that wasn't. So thereare ways of approaching that. There are
ways of approaching this question, youknow. Yeah, but yeah, I
would love to see like a transreworking of Hanslin Gretel and Ted and Alice.
Yeah, because if you think aboutit, the other the other thing

(31:53):
that this is poking at, becausewhat is the title of reference to,
like think about that on Ted andAlice there you go, which was swinger
culture, but also just more broadly, you know, connects to this question
of polyamory mm hmm, which youknow, the newspapers are all crying foul

(32:15):
about now, like it's the neweat fad and somewhere Elliott Gold sitting there
going the fuck are you talking about? Uh, It's always been there.
I would know a movie about it. So if I may, if I
may humbly propose as a as atrans woman with multiple partners. You know,

(32:42):
some of them have very uh youknow, very complicated and interesting relationships
to gender, although all of themare trans feminine. You know, think
about what Hanslin, Gretel and Tennand Alys might be if it was about
a uh, like a polycule ofdisaster dykes, oh man with communication issues.

(33:07):
Oh that sort of all stumbled backinto each other and everybody's happy at
the end. Like this ridiculous Itcould be this ridiculous and entirely, in
my opinion, entirely believable story abouta polycule of about a polycule of transcend

(33:27):
people who have no idea, howto no idea how to deal with their
ship and and uh, you know, uh through one you know one,
you know, misadventure after another,all sort of stumble back into communication by
the end. I like that.But here's here's uh, here's here's here's

(33:50):
another, here's another thing. There'sa couple of characters in the story that
are minor but memorable. So thequaint old inkeeper who keeps the queen olden
brackets the story at either end,and you've got the village idiot who wanders

(34:15):
through hey heay. So, ifI may be so bold, if I'm
going to do a transsapphic retelling ofa reclaiming of Hansel and Gretel and Ted
and Alice, what if the insteadof the village idiot, it was the
token sis hey me once again?Yes, oh I'm the token sis gender.

(34:42):
I don't have anything to do withthis incredibly queer opera. I just
felt like passing through. I likethe Oh my god, I like it.
I say yes. And the quaintold inn keeper is the discord moderator
who has to put up with Polycule'sship. Yeah, this is glorious.

(35:12):
There are ways that you can reclaimsomething like this. There are ways that
you can you can retool, andyou know, you can you can do
all sorts of like this. Andthat's just one. Like I'm not trying
to be prescriptives here, you know, Yeah, yeah, modernization can be
done a ton of ways and yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, I

(35:32):
mean hell And we talked a littlebit about it at the end of you
know, the last time I wason, But you remember, I was
saying that there's plenty of non traditionalkabuki done the kabuki companies today. Like
there's even a kabuki about Star Wars. Oh yeah, there's the officially licensed
Star Wars kabuki. I still reallywant to see that too. I saw

(35:57):
some I saw some clips that itwas fascinating. But you know, think
about think about like even in evenin contemporary you know, contemporary like Broadway
productions. And I'm not saying thisas a as a like a direct direct

(36:20):
parallel, but just think about how, uh like the Wizard of Oz right
white as originally written, and thenthere was the black retelling of it called
wis right so in battle by theway, the og scare Broadway scarecrow in

(36:43):
the so. So like you know, if I, if I might offer
that as a sort of an imperfectcomparison, we might do something like that.
There's plenty of precedent for doing somethinglike that with something like Counsel and
Rebel and Tan and Alice. Yeah, there's also so the one that the
other big one that comes to mindmodern retelling of yes, yeah, which

(37:08):
I mean Ren gets all the loveanyways, but it's still fitting death to
mention it. And that had afairly diverse cast as well. Yeah,
and if he and like a smallerscale. I would say anytime a director

(37:28):
like Simon Stone, for example,does a modern production of an opera like
he did with Lucia, he hadit sound where Lucia. If you don't
like the one scene she's she isa methodone. She's taking methodone because she's
a recovering hero heroin addict. There'suh, there's the like La Traviata.

(37:55):
Instead of her being a cortisan booker, she is a social media influencer.
And instead of having tuberculosis, shehas cancer. So it so there are
ways to, you know, likeyou said, Diary, there are ways
to, you know, like toget around stuff like that, Like even

(38:17):
if they're not problematic, if youwant to just tailor it to a new
audience, it's it's the same thingbut told differently, you know. Also,
I mean you can even update someof the more problematic language, like
so Viner stopso first production of Karmatemm that updated in the habanera. Yeah

(38:43):
too, from you know, theslur to traveler the wandering child. They
changed it changed the wording to beyou know, more appropriate, less less
offensive, more but still completely fitand I think the didn't you say the

(39:05):
recent Met production did that as well. They said love is a love is
a wild child that never follows therules. Yes see, even the Met
can do it. Yeah, andwhat did the Met and what did the
Met do in twenty fifteen? Finallythey stopped. They have since since two
thousand and fifteen, they've stopped usingblackface in otello. It took them long

(39:29):
enough. Yeah, there are stillnow, of course there are still like
Arita de Verona will die on thehill of using black face in Adah or
on in a Trepco's case, orangeface, Princess circus Peanut. She literally
put makeup on to make herself lookCannri and she genuinely looked like a circus

(39:53):
peanut. She did. Like wewatched it, We watched the we watched
it was it was last It wasthis around this time last last year,
she was in a production of Adawith Yodas at the at the wing she
is of course no, yeah,she was Aita and Elena Garansha was making

(40:14):
her world debut is unnearus and AlenaGaranha didn't pull any any of that bullshit,
No she didn't. But on ana trumpco. Not only did her
eye makeup look hideous, that herat her lipstick look awful, but her
but she was orange. She wastrying to look tan like bronze, you

(40:36):
know, like but she looked likePrincess Circus Peanut. She did. Oh,
I I'll find a screenshot and sendit to you. It was.
It was bad. It was.It was like if a certain former president
decided that spray TND just wasn't enough. Yeah, that's that's how it looked

(41:05):
like that level bad. But youknow it's like like but to get to
the point, like they're like eventhe like the Met, if the Met
can ditch black face and Atello,like of course, like you're reading Veranda,
they're like, no, we're no, this is the original Zepharelli version
of Ida, and we're gonna stickto that. Go die on that hill

(41:28):
because everybody else is not willing todo that. You know, we're able
to die on but at least you'redead. Yeah, it's it's just yeah,
but there's yeah, there are waysthat things can be updated to be
less offensive without making it a terribleproduction. And there's ways you can modernize

(41:52):
things without making it terrible. Yeah, and and that there still judging,
you still judging? You met Operafor the Cody Island God Mozart for Cozy
in general, that was god.That was hideous he yeah that yeah Mozart

(42:15):
and was the biggest of mad Yeahafter that. Yeah, he has like
these two guys. The basic storyis, these two guys think that they're
their girlfriends are faithful. This guycomes along says, oh, no,
I bet they aren't, and totrick them, to trick the the girlfriends

(42:36):
into being unfaithful, he has theguys pretend to be leaving, okay on
on uh on, their sailors pretendto be leaving, and they stay behind,
and they dress like middle like theirMiddle Eastern doing the typical Middle Eastern

(42:58):
I might have. Yeah, yeahreally from the Saudi Arabia. Yeah,
that was just still like no,why do just dough mm hmm. And

(43:20):
the Coney Island version did not makeit any better. I can tell you
that right now didn't make it anydamn better. No, it was a
ridiculous It was a ridiculous. Itwas a ridiculous production to begin with the
setting. The production itself, theset staging was predicted ridiculous to begin with,

(43:42):
but that was just made ten times. Yeah, so yeah, that
that's a that's a Mozart Mozart andhis Yeah, and let's not forget the
the shock value change for Lady Macbethof Matson's. Oh yes, we noped

(44:09):
out of that one. Now,granted that one's bad, kind of bad
on its own, but we're thisone. We're talking upgrading harassment to out
and out assault. And that wasand that was Christopher Varlakowsky's fault. Yeah,

(44:30):
he also fucked up Salome too,he did. He sucked up Salome.
And oh and I will say thisthat if we want to include Tristanizolda,
he turned he turned the tragic lovestory of Tristan and Zolda like Act
too of it. And I willand I will bitch about this till the
end of time. He turned Acttoo of his production. He Act Too

(44:54):
is supposed to be where they gettogether and they are they are in this
this all night tryst. Okay,they're fairly clearly banging, yes, but
he has it so that they're sittingso that they what they're doing is they're
setting they're setting up to as amurder suicide. It's like, why there

(45:23):
are I hate Christopher Wiliskowski. Yeah, he's an example of doing it wrong.
Yes, so wrong. Yeah,any and anybody who and anybody?
Yeah? Oh yeah like the yeah, the Salome. He his version of

(45:45):
Salome was there was no dance,real dance of the Seven Veils. And
at the end of at the endof the opera, everyone dies, not
just her, like, not justat the end where she's going to I
at the hands of Herod. No. Yeah, everyone is given poison and

(46:06):
they all die. It's like,the fuck, what is the point of
that? Yeah, it's yeah,he's obsessed with death. I swear to
God. I swear to God he'sobsessed with death. Wait wait, wait,
wait wait, hang on which whichopera was this? Oh Salome?

(46:30):
That that's uh Richard Strauss instead ofinstead of Salome, just Salomon dying at
the end. Yeah, he basicallykilled literally everyone. Yeah in the opera.
Yeah. It was like We're sittingthere, going the fuck are we

(46:54):
watching? She starts passing the stuffout to everybody you know on stage,
and I'm like, what is shedoing? What is this? Because I
heard it? I heard a therewas an Armenian satirical play. I remember
listening to in on tape many yearsago that was set in Istanbul at the

(47:15):
turn of the century. And youknow, these two, ah, these
two Armenian gentlemen are talking about they'rehaving coffee and they're talking about. Oh,
so my wife dragged me to theopera to see the opera. I
was it. Well, it wasvery strange, and they sort of go
through the entire opera, but theending is basically that, you know,
they go and then and then andthen and then the young man came to

(47:39):
the center of the stage and said, behold, I am dying. Ah,
I am now dead. And hislover joined him and said, because
he has died, I too mustdie. And then three other people entered
and said, because these two havedied, then we too must die.
And then everybody's all sort of layingthey're dead. And then the curtain fell

(48:00):
and we lost our money, andour money was a waste. That's what
That's what it's like to watch aproduction, any production by Chris Volakowski.

(48:24):
I think the only saving grace andinterests on Easel is Old was Jonas and
and his on your Heart. Theywere wonderful. It's just in spite of
the setting in spite of the setting. They were absolutely wonderful in it.
But yeah, that's mhm, yeah, that's the wrong way to do it.

(48:52):
Yeah, just ain't that. Wellthen then then if you want to
if you want to include, uh, like with ill trivatory ray Olivia,
why why was she naked? Yeah, Olivia p if you want to throw,
I don't just mean the grandma.I just don't mean the grandma's ghost.

(49:14):
Yeah. The the the production frommunich of Iultrivatore. There one there
was a naked dancer in the answerduring the animal chorus because apparently someone decided
the anvil chorus needed more titties.Yeah, and two there was a naked
grandma. Long story short, grandmaneeds to bail money. Yeah, they

(49:37):
I'll set. Yeah, that's hilarious. I'll put I'll put the uh,
I'll put the the I'll set I'llput the picture that I made the text
him last night picture. Uh,because I have a grandma needs to bail
money. Yeah, Like, Ihad no problem with the naked grandma ghost.
I mean, at first, itwas like, what, why the

(49:59):
hell is this here? But thenyou know, you kind of you kind
of just accepted that there'd be anaked Grandma ghost in the background. But
no, the A chorus didn't needtitties. Also, if you notice there
was the Burden cross. Oh yeah, that's in Germany, so let's borrow

(50:21):
the racist imagery from the US anda KKK chorus. There literally was a
chorus of people dressed like the KKK. It was. It was like I
said this to christ at the time, and I stand by this. It
was like they they knew they couldn'tuse Nazi imagery, so they're like,
huh, what other country has racistimagery that we can use that people will

(50:45):
automatically know what we mean us Awhat's up? Well, I'll tell you
what. Because because the Swastik hasbanded in Germany, their go to,
uh, their go to a whitenationalist symbol over there is the conveyor of
battleflag. You weren't even involved.What the hell? Yeah, they're they

(51:07):
because these these white nationalists in Germany, they you know, when they think
is that they think of the Confederacy, like what in the Holy Roman Empire?
Fuck? It's like, yeah,heritage, my ass. I I

(51:28):
always point out that out to begood. Oh it's heritage over it's it's
the heritage, not hate really thenwhy do then why do German white nationalists
use the Confederate battle flag in placeof the swastika. Yeah, I'm reminded
that you described me as the theKKK on the stage. I'm reminded of

(51:49):
of the producers Springtime for Hitler.Oh god, that's okay, that's an
okay because mel Brooks was just like, that's true. Yeah, that's true.
And and mel Brooks was Jewish.So it's one of those unless he's
died in the last hour, whichand and one and and it's one of

(52:12):
those things where you know you're it'slike for me with the Armenian genocide jokes,
right, you know, it's like, I don't know if I'm okay
with non Armenians making them. Buthm hm oh yeah, I'm sure ship
would not make I don't know howthey're is. I mean, an outsider,
I don't see how there could beanything funny about Let me let me
put it. Let me put itthis way. Uh, the way the

(52:36):
form that it usually takes with meis people talking about like a like a
furniture store, and I'll say somethingto the effect of, oh, you've
run a foul of the Ottoman empire, as have my people. Ah that
okay, that's yes, or orfor instance, you know, like I've

(52:57):
made memes of like a like anottoman is in the furniture captained with genocide
in my furniture. It's more likelythan you think. Oh okay, yeah,
no I see it. They seewhat I mean. Yeah. I
was like, I don't know howsomebody could find that. Now I do,
and I feel like I'm for laughing. No, no, no,

(53:19):
that's the that's the point. Butmy point, my point, my point
is like people from the you know, the group that was subjected to these
people who are like descendants or survivors, right, using this sort of dark
humor and using humor to cope withit, well humor to cope with it,
but also like ridiculing the uh youknow, the people who perpetrated it.

(53:45):
Like like with your jokes, it'syou're you're equating the Turks to furniture.
Yeah, because for some reason,there's a there's a there's a piece
of furniture called an ottoman, Like, oh man, look out for the
look out for those uh, lookout for those heavily armed hassocks. Why

(54:13):
watch out those flour poofs are comingafter you. You know, it's those
footstools with all those tassels, rightright right? Why why is that foot
still wearing a fez? Because festsare cool? Fests are cool, but
also like, why is that footstill wearing a fez and brandishing a ya?

(54:37):
Where did the more important question,where did that footstool get an arm
to brandish? Why is he ofthe text from doctor? Whose finger did
you steal? Oh? It's whosefinger? Okay, it was the male
man hold the dog got ahold ofthe iPhone? Oh yeah, oh dog

(55:02):
dog? Yeah, yeah, whenthe dog got a hold of the iPhone,
the new iPhone, and he's like, whose bigger do you have?
Yeh? Like that dog triumphed thatday. Yeah, oh my god,
yeah, just like yeah, seriously, where did that harm come from?

(55:23):
For it to brandish that? Uh? Now we get we see now,
yeah, we see now that,like the there there are ways to to
work around the problematic ship. Wewill like here we are give all three

(55:43):
of us giving ideas of how thatcan be. You know, and you
know it's it's not it's not difficult. And even and even if they even
if you can't like with the likethe met and I've seen brothers do this,
like with the Warner Brothers, withthe some of the older bugs Bunny.

(56:07):
Yeah, they have a content warninglike this was yeah at a time
when it you know when other whenthis was you know when when you know,
like the racist tropes in the cartoons. The MET does. Yeah,
the MET does the same thing.They have they have a content advisory on

(56:28):
uh MET on demand. You seethat. So it's so it's not so
if you if there's there are peoplewho are like, oh, I don't
want to watch this this opera forwhatever reason, there's the MET saying,
yeah, we understand, you knowthat they're that some of this ship is
is uh yeah, dubious, butyou know we had you know, it's

(56:52):
here anyway, and we're just warningyou. But uh of course, of
course, you know, Disney wouldn'tbe able to do it with the song
in the South. That's too bad. That's that's that's a little bit too.
That's bear that should be that shouldbe stuffed in this Centralia pole.

(57:15):
Yeah, yeah, Pennsylvania, you'reyou're good for so many jokes I've sped
like Centralia jokes are always FIREA Ifinally got a good one yay. I

(57:38):
was when I was when I wasgrowing up in Beirut, we used to
I used to hear, like,you know, because it's been terrible there
ever since the civil war ended,and it's still kind of bad. But
I remember in the early two thousandswhen the world was sort of gripped and
they with the mad cow uh scareuh. I remember the local jokes were

(58:01):
something to the effect of, Oh, we don't have to worry about that,
our cows are already crazy. Yeah. Nice, you make humor to
cope. You do, you do, you really do, m but but
yeah, we could, you know. The point, the point is,

(58:21):
yeah you can. There are waysof reclaiming this sort of thing. There
are precedent, plenty of precedent,and you know, in general, like
as I was saying the uh,this this matter of you know, the
the author and like, think aboutlike, rather than just categorically rejecting their

(58:45):
work, think a little bit aboutYeah, so I'm saying this to your
to your listeners, like, thinkof think a little bit about the balance
of you know, this you know, problematic work versus like look at everything
else they did. Yeah, Ithink, like weigh it against the balance

(59:06):
of everything else that they did,and you know, think, all right,
you know, might this person havelearned you know it? Did this
person continue doing this? What doesthe rest of their work look like?
And even with the problematic stuff,you know, reclamation, you know,
taken as a given, I guessthink about how you can Emily you might

(59:31):
remember this. But there was athere was an episode of the original Star
Trek where I think it was theone with the machine that simulates global like
global casualties during a war, andeverybody sort of dutifully marches into the death
chambers and are according to the numbers, and the governor or something is explaining

(59:54):
to mister Spock the logic behind it, and you know how it's very neat
and orderly and so on, andSpock says something to the effect of,
I do not approve of your logic, but I understand it. Yeah,
you know, like this this importantdistinction of you know, what you're doing

(01:00:15):
is terrible, what you're you know, what you're built is horrific, or
you know, but I see,you know, maybe not maybe not necessarily
something commendable, but I see whatyou were doing. Yeah, And then
you know, such as sometimes it'llbe not commendable at all. Sometimes it'll
be technically a master work, butyou know, in terms of content,

(01:00:37):
it'll be like terrible. Uh,there's like the broader point I'm getting is
like the world and the Internet.You know, those of us who are
Internet poisoned, I think are tooquick to categorically throw things away without taking
time for nuance. Yeah, yes, I would agree with I most definitely

(01:01:01):
agree with that. So you like, there's always time for nuanced and I
think I think it in some caseshappens because a lot more people are recognizing
the problematic shit for what it is. There's a lot more people recognizing,

(01:01:22):
hey, this isn't right and beingquick to point that out. Yeah,
but with and being rightfully outraged bysomething that's you know, genuinely wrong,
but not thinking, but not takinga minute to see if possibly, like

(01:01:45):
you said, that person has learnedand changed how they operate. Yeah,
Like, was this a one off? Or are we talking HP Lovecraft level
consistency? Oh yeah, good oldHewlett Packard love Craft k god Hewlett Packard

(01:02:16):
or holy yeah no with new Lovecraftnames? Now, isn't there h Pea
sauce. I was literally looking itup. Nice? How is why we're

(01:02:38):
all friends. Houses, Parliament,houses, the Parliament, love Craft Parliament,
I mean just the battles rac systemit right, yeah, yeah,

(01:02:59):
it's like tastes like colonization. It'slike you that sweet sweet colonization flavor.
Oh my god, they're welcome,Christal, Oh my god. Ah Now

(01:03:28):
I was going to Broken Crystal.Yeah, I was gonna mention too,
that about reclaiming opera, about reclaimingyou know, like things there is like
in the fact that in the factthat opera itself, like they're the there's

(01:03:51):
a new trend in opera, likethese contemporary operas they are instead of being
some of them are lighthearted, butsome of them but like especially the ones
we've seen, are they trend towardFor example, we've seen we've we've seen

(01:04:15):
Champion Fire, Shut Up on MyBones, We've seen uh the Hours,
dead Man Walking, things like that. Those kind of operas are if you
had put down in you know,in the context that the more famous offers,

(01:04:36):
those might have not might might nothave been as popular, you know
they with in the in the subjectmatter stuff, those might have been like
too heavy and too depressing for audiencesat that time. Now nowadays, this

(01:04:57):
yeah, like like the those contemporaryoperas are the ones that sell the best
at the met The ticket sales gothrough the roof on those the you know,
like even in even a even thecontemporary settings of like like for example

(01:05:20):
Florencia and now Amazonas and and Carmen. Yeah, like like last week,
you know, I saw the carbonthat's that's set at a border town.
So that fresh take on on theopera and opera from the eighteen hundreds makes

(01:05:46):
it feel like it's a new operain itself. But this contemporary stuff,
like it's tackling those it's tackling issuesthat you're kind of limited if you want
to do a new setting for anold opera, you're limited, uh on

(01:06:12):
without because if you try to puta completely modern spin on it, then
it becomes what's what in Germany theycall reggietat, which means it's which means
like director's theater, which means thatthe director. And this is where Florlakowsky
comes in, uh he he andother people like Klaus Goot and uh and

(01:06:39):
haunts Noinfels they ah, they hadtheir own vision of what they want this
to be and if it and youknow, they don't really care if the
if it goes along with the musicand the libretto, you know, like

(01:07:01):
like for example, Noinefells is mostnoted for his by Right production By Right
Germany of Love and Grin. Theycall it the rat production because they had
the chorus kind of dressed like ratsand it was in a lot of the

(01:07:28):
criticism from that production came from thefact that people were seeing the rats as
the as as an anti Semitic trope, and uh yeah, of course,
of course it was by Right,which is which is the creation of of

(01:07:50):
you know, ch Lasagna. Whowho was you know, like the who
was like what the the godf otherof fucking you know, the anti Semitic
semitism in fucking opera tank jacquel Meyerbeer'sYeah Tank from Jacquela Meyerbeer's career after he

(01:08:13):
died, and uh, of courseat by Roy and of course, uh,
you know, like who was itfor Parsifal? I think, yeah,
was it for Percival? The Kingof Bavaria wanted a wanted a Jewish

(01:08:34):
conductor and uh the and Wagner hadfit. He said he didn't go against
the king and he's like, fine, you could have this Jewish conductor there.
But I'll just have you know I'mnot happy that he is, that
a Jew is conducting the most Christianof operas. Well, shove it,

(01:08:57):
you know, but it's like bogyou're we're gonna need you to take your
opinion and shove it way way upyour butt hole. Yeah, but it
Yeah, you're limited because if you'relimited to like with these older operas,
you're limited. You're limited on howcontemporary and how modern you can push it,

(01:09:19):
because then you start going into likeyou start losing control of the h
of of the the opera itself.I can give you an example of that.
It's that damn uh that damn tusctin Brussels production that I still that

(01:09:42):
I still regret watching. Uh yeah, but you're every life churse that led
you to that point. Yeah,it's just but the but with these modern
operas, with these contemporary operas,you can tackle these subjects, you know,

(01:10:05):
like like with Champion, you're talkingabout Emil Griffith who not only had
to deal with uh, the factthat he killed someone in ring Yeah that
he's also he was also a closetivegay man and you had you have fire
shut up on my boats who youknow where Charles m Blow is dealing with

(01:10:29):
the with the trauma and the longterm effective sexual abuse and how that was
affected that, how that affected hisentire life. You have, uh,
you know, you have dead ManWalking even though you know which we're to
talk about that next week. Youhave the hours you have which which is

(01:10:54):
which was just amazing there. Uh, carrisio Is had wrote before she died.
She wrote an opera called Innocence,which is about a which is about
school shooting that happened in Finland thatdoesn't happen. So this is so it's

(01:11:15):
like this is a It's like thesecontemporary operas are taking or now taking subjects
that you couldn't place in a youcouldn't play. You couldn't take the older
operas and put them in that situation. Now you're now we're able to have

(01:11:38):
standalone operas that tackle that. Wedon't have to worry about overstepping the overstepping
or overshooting on these older operas.You know. Uh, it's just well
I'll give you and I'll give youan example too. There the the fact
that we there's there's a very littleto no room for uh without making it

(01:12:03):
into a bad trope or bad stereotypicaltrope of uh, you know, for
for uh trade for the trans community. There's a whole opera now that was
written by that was written. Itwas about a trans woman for specifically for

(01:12:27):
a trans a trans female who isa baritone. The opera is Lily Elba
was written for uh uh huh yep, And that just came out last October.

(01:12:48):
So it just debuted in October.So there we go. I mean,
they're there. That that's that's athat's like a barrier that's been broken.
Now we finally have you know,something that you could never without making
it bad, fit you know,fit a trans character into those old operas.

(01:13:13):
Now we don't have to worry aboutthat because we can write, you
know, with the with the geniusof the composers that are coming down the
pike. We have we can wedon't we don't need We wouldn't even have
to touch uh the you wouldn't beabout to mention transgenderism, Yeah, the
trans being transgender? Uh you getlike She and Lucas was the first trans

(01:13:41):
person to sing at the met Shesang a baritone role. She sang uh
Angelotti in Tosca and nobody, youknow, nobody bad it than I.
Nobody had a fit about it becausebecause it she was wonderful. But you

(01:14:05):
know, it's just this is theworld is changing, and when when we
see that, we get when youwhen you sit down and you think about
it, there are things that youyou can change. You can make changes
to things that are that have thatare standing there, and you could also

(01:14:27):
make the change yourself. That's thatthat you know that, that's the That's
what I love the best about aboutopera is that you can. You can't
either you know, make these changeswith the older operas, you know,
kind of tweak them and and screwsthem up. Or you if you can't
do that, then you know,right then you're right one your own damn

(01:14:49):
self. There you Yeah, Ithink I've made everybody's speetuls. Now.
Now this is not a this isnot an opera. But you know something

(01:15:11):
that I might you know, referpeople too, is for instance, you
know, if you want a transspecific story. Uh, there was a
musical some years ago recently called TheCivility of Albert Cashier, which was about
this famous trans masculine soldier from theAmerican Civil war. I've heard of that
one. There's a there's a few, like I'm less familiar with operas,

(01:15:36):
but in terms of musicals, Ithink that there's been a few that have
been that have that have have beenwritten and performed over the last few years
that there's center transcenive queerness. Youknow that you could you know, I
imagine that your audience would have notrouble finding now, uh you know,

(01:15:58):
as far as as far is uhuh yeah, reclamation and so on is
concerned. You know. Yeah,I think that I hope that not just
in the name of being more sensitiveto you know, trans people, queer
people more more broadly, but inthe interest of new life, new breath,

(01:16:28):
you know, h for some ofthese old stories, I would love
to see more retellings, you know, modern retellings or reimaginings, you know,
because there's this there's this saying thatI I I I've heard a lot
ever since I've been working to untanglemyself from the imprint of traumatic religious upbringing

(01:16:57):
I had. Where is that it'slike basically the tradition is pure pressure from
dead people. I've heard that.Yeah, But you know, if it's
if you're just going to reproduce theway that it was done, you know,

(01:17:17):
one hundred years ago or fifty yearsago or what have you. That's
not necessarily going to live as vibrantlyas something that you allow yourself to sort
of try to stick the spirit of. But maybe you know, smooth just
a little bit, or reshape justa little bit, you know, for

(01:17:41):
for changing eras and and you know, sensitivity that society is developing now that
it might not have had in thesame way before. You know, I
would love to see I would loveto see more of that. Don't just
Dicky done the thing. Don't justcapture the spirit of the thing. Yeah,
sorry it having lived in Johnstown foras long as I did, slapshot

(01:18:02):
references just seem to show up.Mm hmm. But yeah, that I
mean, like the whole thing.I I would like there are a lot
of things I would love to seeretold, you know, I would love
to see a lot of like there. And there are some things like there

(01:18:26):
are some for example, there aresome operas that can't because they are so
time specific. Andrea set Yeah diologueto Carmelite, they don Carlos, those
can't be But for like, butlike you can do for example, how

(01:18:50):
many times how many different productions haveI seen of of the Ring cycle that
aren't the traditional Viking horns and andUH and breastplates. We have seen quite
a few of them, I haveanyone. Yeah, So it's possible.

(01:19:16):
It's possible to give it to betwo, have a new to have a
different look at a lot of things. Doesn't have to It doesn't have to
necessarily be like I mean and andto like and like what was it like
we saw de Valcara, that onefrom Teatrice and Carlow uh, and it

(01:19:45):
was like it's like they had likeyou one where it was like World War
two era yeah. Oh. Andthen there was that yeah. And then
there was the the Uh. Therewas Twilight Gods that did the lyric oper
did oh yeah in the in thein the park, in the car garage.
Yeah, that was that was duringduring the height of COVID. UH.

(01:20:11):
The lyric oper decided two to dothis UH, to do a modern
take on Go to Demo, whichis the last UH installment of the Ring
cycle, and they did it.They filmed it in a parking garage and
like the Right of the Valkyries,for example, was was in UH was

(01:20:34):
in the cars. Yeah, andBrunhilda was in a Mustang. It was
awesome. H h. And itlike and made even more awesome by the
fact that Wagner was clearly shitting himselfin his grave. Oh yeah, yeah,

(01:20:58):
that was beautiful. But it waslike the way they did it,
Like there there was hit they combinedhip hop into it and different. Yeah,
it was it like a person anopera purist would have been like,
oh my god, this is notvogar, this is not good to demologue.

(01:21:18):
How could you? How dare youdo this? But it was it
was a retelling of that story.It was a remix. I think that's
how they described it. Was areal an operatic remix. I think they
called it. Yeah, and itit captured the spirit, it captured the

(01:21:38):
story itself. But it was justthe way they did it that it was
just amazing. And the fact thatthey staged it in a parking garage was
even better. Uh yeah. Soand if you want to find it,

(01:21:59):
if you want to find I don'tknow, I don't know if they had
if it's on if it be onYouTube, but I know Opera bolt dot
Com they have it. Twilight Gods, they have they have the they have
a you can get a copy ofit from them. I have a copy
of it. It is just yeah, it was. It was amazing to

(01:22:20):
see that that that's that's a greatexample of reclaiming that, not just reclaiming
it, but taking that and puttingyour own, your own stamp on it.
And in this case it was eveni would say even better than Vogner.

(01:22:45):
So it was yeah, but uhyeah, so yeah, kudos to
the to the uh, kudos tothe to the lyric for doing that.
And also so I think I hadI watched their version of Palliaci, which

(01:23:09):
they slow yeah, sad fucking clown. They did it. They did a
version of sad fucking clown that lookedthat it was like the Honeymooners. They
had it like the Honeymooners, becausewell they is frighteningly appropriate. Yeah.

(01:23:32):
Yeah, and so it was likebehind the scenes as well, you know,
like but it was it was youknow, it was the show the
honeymoon like like the Honeymooners, butit was also behind the scenes, so
like instead of the instead of themstaging a staging like a traveling show,

(01:23:54):
they were staging the TV show.And then it was behind the scenes as
well. So that's so that wasthat was That was a great take on
it. I liked that they mighthave that, they might have that on
opera on video, the lyrics versionof Polyaci uh, because that was really

(01:24:18):
really good. But those are twogreat examples that you know, I don't
I don't know if I don't knowif to you know, if there are
any more with those, Like thelyric itself, they're they're look at look
at what they're doing, and everybodyelse can do it. Don't be like,

(01:24:38):
don't be like that motherfucker who saysyou have to be in you have
to come sit in the theater toenjoy opera. I'm not going to put
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna makedigital streaming available because because my job is
to put butts in the seats inthe in the theater. And uh,
if you want to enjoy opera,you have to at the theater. Well,

(01:25:00):
fuck you, Bucky boy, likewell, in the words of that
Pingu meme, well now I amnot doing it. Yes, here we
are, you know, here herethere here, the met is doing promoting
live at Home twenty twenty bucks apop. And you're whining about uh,

(01:25:21):
you're whining about how it's uh,it's digital streaming. It shouldn't be allowed.
It's like, well, Dian,yeah, you know weird heill to
die on but at least your dad. Yeah, but no, I mean
like the the the more that thesethese the opera houses and these and these

(01:25:46):
opera directors see that they can dothis, the better is the better it's
going to be. Like they taketheir they do that operatic m like if
like if somebody would do an operaticremix of you know, like maybe they
wouldn't maybe they wouldn't do something exactlylike like Twilight Gods if they did something

(01:26:11):
different with all four uh you know, like condensed two hour versions of because
it's like sixteen hours long, fifteensixteen hours of your time for all four
of them. If you did,like, uh, you know, if

(01:26:35):
you did like a two hour versionlike they you a two hour They do
a two hour kid friendly version ofThe Magic Flute at the met every year.
You could probably do a two hourversion of Developer or or zig Free
or gets Demro. You could dothat. It's it can be done.

(01:26:58):
It can be done. But ifyou so so to so the you can't
and and that too. And thebest part is if you really want to
do some reclamation, if you doreally want to reclaim this as as art,
you know, like especially Wagner's stuff, put black people, queer people,

(01:27:19):
and Jewish people in it. Havean I have an all have an
all diverse cast in there, andwatch yeah, and just know that somewhere
and how Vogner is is like,ahh yeah. If you can't shit on

(01:27:41):
his grave because it's too well blocked. Yeah, if you can't actually ship
on his grave physically, ship onit figuratively. But also if you can
find a way around security and actuallydo a ship on Wagner's grave, do

(01:28:03):
it, especially if you're lactus andtolerance. Load up on that milk and
ice cream. Oh yeah, mhm mm hmm. And the truth and
the truth mm hm. You know. Speaking of hip hop, p d

(01:28:29):
Q bach uh did uh. PeterShickley did a rap or two in his
e The one that I remember wasthe classical rap, which was all about
life in New York and having livedin New York for five years. It's

(01:28:50):
so funny. Like there's a linethat goes for a bus, you have
to wait an hour more because theylike to travel and get things at four.
Oh my god, but you're lookingat a guy who can't get what
he wants. Bars is out ofchocolate croissants and uh yeah he in the

(01:29:18):
In the preamble, shake Ley talkeda little bit about other composers who who
engaged in proto rap, like anobscure English musician named uh Milton Rabbit who
was known for hip hop music.Yeah, I just got that house musique.

(01:29:43):
I just got that. God,Milton Rabbit? Who Milton Rabbit?
Who is that? Who is hiphop God? Thankfully I didn't take a
drink of diet cook before I gotthat, or it would have been all
over the keyboard. Oh my,I think I think now. So in

(01:30:13):
conclusion, Yeah, this review ofhowsin right on Ted analysis. I liked
where it went. I like whereit went because we got into the bigger
topic of of uh problematic ship andhow to how to fix it? I
love that. Yeah, I thinkthat's. I think that, you know,

(01:30:38):
while I certainly understand the impulse tothrow things away wholesale, or throw
it an artist's entire ever away wholesale, I think the I think that you
know, the better thing to do, especially in the here and now,
is too you know, it isto to to approach it with a little

(01:30:58):
bit more nuanced and say, Okay, you know what if this is what
if this is our starting point?Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, I mean
it could be. It could bethe it could be the jumping off point
for a lot of creativity. Yeah, and a lot of new things that

(01:31:27):
you wouldn't see. Yeah, Imean for that matter, for that matter,
it's this like P. D.Q. Buck was the inspiration behind
some of like the things that I'velike, you know, comedy wise,
that I've come up with over theyears. Even like the other day,
I was talking to an Armenian friendabout like what if there was a you
know, what if there was astage play, like a dark comedy stage

(01:31:48):
play about the about Operation Nemesis,which is this operation by the Armenian Revolutionary
Federation to assassinate the masterminds of theArmenian jet A side who had mostly escaped
to Berlin because they thought they weregoing to be safe there. But like
you have the guys who did theassassinations but as baristas and these fugitive Turkish

(01:32:13):
notables who think that they're safe inthis cafe, but they know that they're
being followed, and they they they'relike trying to they're trying to to to
to be inconspicuous, and so they'rehanging out around the cafe, but they're
unknowingly spending more and more time around. There would be assassins, you know

(01:32:33):
that. I would love to seethat, just the and and then and
then at the end, and andthen and then like the back half of
the back half of the story wouldbe because in real history, you know,
the Tahlian who assassinated Talat Pasha tothe Minister of the Interior, and
I think Grand Vizier. The jurybasically said yeah, no, he yeah,

(01:32:58):
he did it and he had amoral obligation to do it, so
acquitted. But you know, withthat in mind, doing a trial in
like the back half of the storywhere it's like, yeah, and this
guy was on top of being amass murderer, this guy was an asshole
that kept changing his order halfway.Oh god, yes, m but you

(01:33:24):
know this sort of like I sayall of that, you know, not
not just the delight and horrify,but but to point out that something is
news as complicated as the work ofPedicky bach in terms of in terms of
sensitivity, I think can also makefor inspiration for new and interesting and nuanced

(01:33:55):
works down the pike. So youknow, I I it isn't like it
is and I and I and Iwant to close. I want to close
by saying, you know, mypoint in all of this has not been
to tell you that you're not allowedto enjoy things, because I worry that
that Like in this post gam orGate era especially, uh, there's this

(01:34:15):
knee jerk reaction to any any criticalengagement with media as, oh, you
just want me to hate everything.No, I do not want you to
hate everything. I want you tobe a better informed I want you to
be better informed about the media thatyou consume so that God forbid, you
actually enjoy it more. Yeah,this is this is also why I do

(01:34:39):
what I do as a as astreamer. You know, I do history
education on Twitch and in podcasting.And you know, like I could complain
about novels. I mean, Annalieknows about my hatred of James clavell Oh,
but uh, you know I II will also played and panned lots

(01:35:01):
of video games and played and reallyenjoyed other video games. And I always
reminded. I always remind the viewerslisten. You know, I don't want
you to not enjoy anything. WhatI want you to do is to be
better informed about the media that youconsume, so that you can hold it
to account where it all to beheld to account, but also so that

(01:35:24):
you can enjoy the really good bitsmore. And because if you're informed,
you will enjoy the good bits more. Yep. And that's what we do
with it with our podcast that weare part of it is part of it
is to make opera more accessible,less elitist, more enjoyable for everyone.

(01:35:45):
But the other thing is because,like, for example, because Wagner is
a problematic son of a bitch andpiece of dog shit. Yeah, there's
there's Wagner, the raging anti semiwho couldn't keep his deck in his pants.
But there's Wagner, the genius composer. You know he couldn't pants.

(01:36:06):
Yeah yeah, so so I meanyou can you can, Like I'll give
you an example. In in theJewish world, there's Shlimo. Carla Bach
was a was a composer of thesongs that you hear in an Orthodox uh

(01:36:31):
and Orthodox services and even and evenin conservative and Reformed services are you know
on a Friday Night are written byShlima Carliwak. That being said, he
is he was accused of sexual misconductof the like sexual assault, and there

(01:36:54):
for a while, like Central Synagogue, the the sing that I associate with
in New York City, they hada moratorium look and one year moratorium on
performing any of his songs. Soin that year there were more songs that
came out from like the the thecantor their their senior canter is you know,

(01:37:16):
graduated from the New England Conservatory ofMusic and he has a yeah,
so he could so he wrote.So he and his wife wrote some some
music and and they found other musicthat they could pull from a different different
ethnicities, you know, different Jewishethnicities. But at the in the end

(01:37:39):
they realized that that moratorium was hurtinghis daughter Nishama because it was because because
the stigma and the the negativity ofthat of those allegations and it has been
proven that he did this, yetwhat falling on her and it was hurting

(01:38:01):
her. She's a she's an artist, she's a singer and songwriter in her
own right, and it was hurtingher as well. So they so it's
like, you know, we needto we can enjoy Shlomo Carlo Box music
and still sing it, but youcan't. But it's a divorce of the
the person who wrote that and themusic. So you know, so yeah,

(01:38:28):
that that's that's why, that's whyyou know, the half the like
I watch an Orthodox uh service onSaturdays, and and a lot of their
their music I recognize because I hearon Fridays and Saturdays too, Yeah,
in the perform service, and it'slike, oh, okay, you know,

(01:38:49):
but I can and I can enjoythem, but I but I do
it knowing that you know, Ilike, I like this, you know,
but it's it's to keep in mind, keep in mind. Yeah,
the the genius behind those that musicwas a deeply flawed and deeply shitty human

(01:39:12):
being. You know. I couldsay the same thing about the author of
the work that got me interested inJapanese history. You know, he was
a comic book artist and he didthis very long running series called Rudni Kenshin
in the late nineties and early on. Oh and it's because of that that

(01:39:33):
I got interested in Japanese history ofthe eighteen sixties and went on to earn
a doctorate, but in recent yearshe I think he actually did time for
being a sex pest and for havingyou know, for I can't remember if
it was CSA or you know,something like that, but involving minors.

(01:39:57):
Yeah, so the guy you know, like like youw you know obviously ew
like, but I'm not going topretend that the among that this this historical
you know or quasi historical uh treatmentof the eighteen seventies in Japan didn't have
the effect that it did on wheremy career went. Yeah, yeah,

(01:40:19):
we can. We can appreciate theWe can appreciate the work and the positive
impact that it has that it eitherhas had or can have, and also
make ample room to say, okay, and the creator with a gross human
being. Yeah, exactly. Sothere are so many there's like they like,

(01:40:43):
h there are so many, uhexamples of that, not only in
opera, not only in in art, you know, and in literature things
like that. But yeah, butlike yeah, if everybody's like, we
was like, well, this isit's cancel culture. Why are you mentioning
this? I'll never be able toenjoy get this stuff again. No,

(01:41:05):
you can do that. You canseparate the artists from the human being.
There is a way to do that, you know, you know, you
know understand that, you know,they had their the duality of that person,
the composer, the creative genius,and then the the piece of ship.

(01:41:31):
Yeah, but this was this hasbeen I tell you what, this
has been a wonderful conversation between thethree of us. Thanks, Chas and
I and I thank you very muchfor coming on here. And Iri,
uh, thank you for having meand uh, you know, welcome to

(01:41:51):
come back. Yes, thank you. I can think of I can think
of the couple like again, I'mnot an expert in opera, but I
can think of a couple of otherworks that may fit the bill. But
we can talk about that another time. So in the meantime, thank you
very much. You are more thanwelcome. You are our favorite history dyke.

(01:42:12):
You might be you might be,you might be the only favorite.
You might be the only history dikewe know, but you are our favorite.
Uh but uh, thanks to you. Thanks to you. We you
know our listeners have have you know, we've learned what we learned about curse
Kabuki. That's and who knows whatelse you may you know in the future,

(01:42:35):
you'll you'll bring you'll bring other littlegems into the I mean, I
mean, imagine, imagine if therewas a real if there was a reimagining
of the Cursed Kabuki and in thein the bit where they're all, let's
go to the opera, it wasPDQ back. Oh oh that's beautiful.
That needs to happen right there.That But but anyway, we do thank

(01:43:00):
you Nairi for being here. Wewant to thank everybody for listening. Thank
you for tuning in and uh andsupporting us again. Uh we we do
think we do want to. Welove our listeners. Uh. I'm sure
you and uh I know you alllove love us because you stopped by us
all this time. Uh we.Of course you'll find us on our platforms

(01:43:24):
uh on Spotify, on Apple,uh tuned with transcripts on Apple and uh
and you'll find like on our Facebookpage. I'm gonna find me link on
Opera Vault for Twilight Gods in caseyou want, in case anybody wants to
order that, but I'll try tofind the link for that, and and

(01:43:53):
also our tea public shop. I'mtrying to get the the p d Q
box shirt Ida that i have.I'm trying to get that fixed up.
Now. Next week we are Annaand I are going to talk about deadband
Walking. I mentioned it. Imentioned it, uh before we saw that

(01:44:15):
last fall. We're gonna talk.We didn't and we never got a chance
to actually sit down and give it, give it its due to talk about
it. So we are going togo over that next week because I because
that that was amazing. And Idon't know if it's on uh MET on
demand yet, because usually they theywait until it's been on great performances at

(01:44:40):
the MET to put it up onthe U to put it up on demand.
But uh, I do know that, I do know that like Florencian,
and like I said last week,Florencia is up on uh Opera on
video. But we'll talk about deadbandWalking next week. And of course Jake

(01:45:01):
Heggy is going to write a newopera I think for next for next season
or the season after so so Ican't wait to see what he has coming
down the pipe. But we willtalk about deadband Walking next week. Once
again, Nirie, it was apleasure to have you here and and UH

(01:45:21):
as always, guys, stay trashy, we love you. We'll talk to
you next week. Bye,