October 9, 2023 • 29 mins
The fall season has arrived, so grab your favorite cozy beverage and catch up with Lane and Jackie. This week, we’re sharing a conversation that responds some big spiritual questions. Lane and Jackie ponder the role of religion in their lives, the relevance of religion as the world evolves, and beliefs about the concept of fate.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie (00:08):
Welcome to the Outer Known, a podcast that shines a
light on the outer edges ofinner knowing.
Lane (00:29):
It's fall - can you believe it?
Truly, like every time I lookout the window, I'm just
thinking a lot about, you know,the summer and how it went this
year, what all the decisionsI've made in my life this year
already.
It's been an eventful year forme and I keep thinking about I
don't remember who said this,but the saying that there are
some years that ask questionsand some years that answer, and
(00:52):
I feel like this has been alittle bit of a mix of both.
Jackie (00:55):
Yeah, I think about that statement a lot, and I think
this year has been a lot ofanswering questions for me
really sort of interesting and,in a lot of ways, unsettling
ways.
Lane (01:08):
Tell us more.
I think there's just been aweird energy hanging over me
this year because a lot of workstuff is in a weird place and I
think just in life I'm in aweird place and I think as I'm
getting further into my 40s,things are becoming in a lot of
ways less clear and so thereinsort of feels like a little bit
(01:31):
of struggle.
I relate to that for sure.
I've been through some bigtransitions this year.
I quit two jobs this year.
Jackie (01:41):
Loud quitting.
Lane (01:42):
Yes, loud quitting, and I'm in a space of purposefully
asking a lot of questions nowand just trying to be open and
allow myself to be a little bitbored, and it's challenging.
Jackie (01:57):
Yeah, I definitely struggle with boredom.
I struggle with, I think, likea lot of us, the sort of
capitalist urge to constantly bedoing something, and I've been
really.
I think part of my sort of lineof inquiry for myself is like,
yeah, how do I figure out somestillness?
(02:18):
Because I think some of thoseanswers come from that and
that's kind of been reallychallenging for me.
Lane (02:26):
Re latable.
Well, we have a few questionsthat we prep today to kind of
explore together, which I'mreally excited about.
So first up is (02:33):
What role does spirituality play in your life?
Jackie (02:39):
That's a good question.
It's an evolving one, I think.
As somebody who went toreligious schools my literally
my entire education I think it'ssomething I just sort of took
for granted that I went throughthe ritual of it and I just took
it for granted that it'ssomething I was supposed to do,
without really questioning whyor what it was doing.
(03:01):
But I think of late it's reallygiven me an opportunity to just
sort of see the worlddifferently, and not so much as
a given but something that I cankind of lean on a little bit to
sort of give me different kindsof answers.
Not answer but maybe nudge somethings that maybe I already
knew.
You know, sometimes you havethose experiences where you know
(03:23):
the answer and you knowintuitively what's up, but you
just need someone or somethingelse to state it plainly for you
to be like oh okay, that's,that's it.
I've kind of been having a lotof those experiences lately
where, either through tarot orthrough kind of other things,
I've been putting things out andgetting the answers back-- less
(03:46):
answers, more confirmations ofthings that I already knew.
So that's sort of been aninteresting, an interesting
thing that's been, I think,trending recently in my
relationship to spirituality andthe sort of universe of things
unknown.
Lane (04:01):
Yeah, what you're saying there for me is also important.
I think before I came toWitchcraft and before I began
doing this podcast with you, Ihad a lot of experiences that I
had just dismissed, and gettingthat information and, in some
ways, validation of like, oh,there are people who experience
(04:24):
these kinds of things and theyare subtle and they are
subjective and a littledifferent for everyone, but they
are spiritual in nature andit's not, you know, just me
being a unfortunately this islike some internalized misogyny
right here but, like you know, aflaky woo woo girl.
I think there was a lot of thatthat I held on to before my own
(04:48):
kind of like journey in my 30sand yeah, really, really to that
.
Jackie (04:53):
Yeah, it feels good because I think I think I'm the
kind of person who I thinkpartially this is sort of Pisces
energy for me, but like I tendto be someone who's very in her
head about things and so thishas allowed me to sort of be
like, hey, out there, like am Ijust making this up or is this
really a thing?
(05:14):
And you know, maybe theresponses don't always look like
I expect them to, but it's likeokay, yeah, that's a thing.
Or oh, okay, cool, no, I wasjust making that up, or maybe
being led in the wrong direction.
So it's been sort of a nicecheck to my own-- insecurities
is a too strong a word-- butlike you know my own kind of
(05:35):
doubts or my own questioning ofwhat's what's what I'm feeling,
what I'm thinking, kind ofwhat's going on energetically.
Lane (05:42):
Yeah, I think for me, even in the very structured studies
that I do, I'm alwaysapproaching it without certainty
, with a sense of skepticism orquestioning, because I think I'm
just kind of seeking and likelooking for you know what I
think and feel and into it.
And so I recently completed, inAugust, my fourth year of
(06:06):
Mystery School Studies of theTemple of Witchcraft.
Jackie (06:08):
Woo, congratulations! LANE
This year I felt so much moreemotional and a little bit at
sea after completing it and thatreally struck me because at the
start of this year I was like,oh, this is all really cool, but
it's like very heady material,it's all you know.
It was all around the cabalaand ceremonial magic and it
wasn't necessarily somethingthat I fully resonated with in
(06:32):
terms of what I think myeveryday practice will overall
kind of evolve into.
But at the same time there wasa lot of inherent value and and
like really interesting mysteryand and it did really sit with
me in this like way that I feltmade me grow and I don't know, I
think after that year I'm justkind of looking ahead and maybe
(06:56):
it's just where I am in life.
As you know, we were saying aswell on this transition period,
but it feels like a transitionin my spiritual practice too,
and the more that I learn, themore I want to know, the more I
want to explore, and I can'tstop buying occult books.
It's kind of a problem.
I can't stop buying books in general, which is a
(07:17):
problem.
Lane (07:17):
Fair but you know, I think this winter for me will be
kind of a.
I think I'm just kind offeeling this like I want to kind
of go back and with what I knownow, almost like redesign my,
my rituals and the ways that Ithink about things, and then, I
don't know, wanting to make itmy own a little bit more, based
on what I've learned.
Jackie (07:38):
Yeah, that's a really neat kind of way to reflect, I
think, also on how far you'vecome and what things are still
resonating and valuable for youversus what things don't speak
to you anymore, and build apractice around that, which I
always think is pretty cool.
Lane (07:53):
Yeah, and for me, I think I've never been good at routine.
I don't know what it is aboutme, maybe it's a Pisces thing,
but I've always really likedevery day to be a little bit
different, you know, or it'sjust kind of flow with how I'm
feeling or what the day is andwhat I have planned.
But I do want to develop alittle bit more of a daily
(08:15):
practice, something I can do alittle bit more consistently,
even if it's for just setperiods, you know, like 30 days
or something, and just kind ofexplore that a little for myself
and see how it feels.
We'll see how I develop that.
Jackie (08:26):
Yeah, I think my sort of task for myself, I think, is to
figure out what my blocks arearound that, because I struggle
a lot with consistency and Ihave tried lots of different
things.
It's like, ok, I'm going to dothis thing every day and, like
you know, I might be able tocommit to it for like a week or
two and then something happensand then I get distracted and
(08:49):
then I never go back to it.
So I think that's my, my taskthis fall is to figure that out
for myself.
Lane (08:55):
Look at us.
Yeah trying routine.
Jackie (09:00):
Definitely so, speaking of not being in routines and
sort of letting things happen asthey may, do you believe in
fate?
Lane (09:09):
I really love this question.
It's so juicy because I thinkthrough my life it's really
changed.
When I was young, growing up, Ialways really deeply believed
in fate and it kind of took adifficult emotional situation
and kind of a spiritualawakening, starting in my 20s,
moving into my 30s, to kind oflike I don't know, I just
(09:31):
flipped it on its head and I nolonger did.
And then now, the more I'vestudied astrology, the longer
we've done this podcast and themore people from all different
backgrounds that we've talked to, I think I believe in, or
starting to believe in, and Iwouldn't say I feel certain and
I don't think I ever necessarilywill of anything.
However, it's like a differentversion of fate, this concept
(09:53):
that we keep coming across ofour souls agreeing to incarnate
on this earth in this physicalplane.
That's the first Sephora andKabbalah, as well as called
Malkut.
It's all about the physicalplane.
It's the bottom of the tree andit's that experiential physical
thing and it leads up into theothers and I just find that
(10:16):
interesting and I've just beenruminating on it for a while now
and I really think that it'slike okay, there's a degree to
which some people believe oursouls even agree to the time and
place and way that they willpass on and that kind of stuff
and.
I don't know what I think aboutthat, but I do feel if I'm to
believe in an incarnation ofsorts, then we choose how we
(10:38):
will develop in this lifetime.
I don't know to what specifics,and so I think that's maybe the
version of fate that I havestarted to believe in.
How about you?
Jackie (10:48):
I really appreciate that perspective.
That's certainly a much deeperlevel than the way I've ever
thought about it and wow, that'sgiven me actually something to
think about.
But for myself, I would sayI've always believed in fate,
but maybe, yeah, again, notnecessarily, maybe slightly in
the more kind of traditionalinterpretation of it.
(11:10):
But I was actually thinkingabout this the other day and
I've always felt justenergetically that and maybe I'm
kind of conflating twodifferent things, but I've
always felt that I've been thisis going to sound silly, but I
always had this sort of likecharmed life, if you will that I
feel like I've been very luckythat I've been.
(11:32):
I've had resources most of mylife.
I've grown up mostly middleclass, I've had access to food
and education and you know sortof those basic things.
But you know, when I thinkabout sort of certain moments
throughout my life, there'salways I've always had a feeling
that there's been someintervention on my behalf in a
way that either has prevented mefrom something bad or
(11:56):
catastrophic happening or, youknow, door has been opened, the
if you think about a railroadtrack, you know the train is
diverted to a different track inthe nick of time, like that
kind of thing I've always had asense of.
But I think as I've gotten olderI've definitely seen things
kind of show up on my doorstepbut it's still on me to kind of
(12:18):
follow through it's.
It's more of an active kind ofparticipation where you know the
the sort of terrible cliche of,y ou know, you can bring a
horse to water but you can'tmake it drink.
The horse has to make thatdecision.
And so I'm now feeling morelike a horse these days where
you know I can sort of the thingcan be brought to me or I can
(12:38):
be brought to the thing, butit's still ultimately my
decision to act on it or to dowith what I will, the
information that I'm given.
So I definitely still believeit's.
It plays a very active role inmy life.
But I think the more consciousI become about things beyond me
and those you know obviously notknowing all of the answers I
(12:59):
never will but just being moreaware of that has certainly led
me to be a more activeparticipant.
You know I always think aboutthe sort of fate versus free
will debate, which I don't thinkis a debate at all.
It's.
It's for me it's always been atboth end.
But I feel like, definitely morelike on the active free will
side when fate shows up at mydoor.
(13:19):
I'm conscious that I have achoice to make and I'm also just
being more conscious about whatthe outcomes of those choices
could be, and maybe not beatingmyself up as much if I make the
wrong choice, or even you knowthe idea that there really
aren't wrong choices.
There are, some choices arebetter than others, and it's
(13:40):
just what kind of outcome do Iwant?
Lane (13:42):
Yes, I so agree with that.
Like I used to struggle withdecisions on almost like a
deathly scale, where it was likeI had this deep fear that I
would just end up in a guttersomewhere if I made the wrong
choice.
Like it was just, you know,almost life or death, and it
really paralyzed me for a lot ofmy life.
And it's something that I, youknow, have consciously become
(14:03):
better at through a lot oftherapy.
But I think, for me, what Ihave realized is, you know, it's
important to have your sense ofwhat matters to you, not just
in an earthly way, but in a sortof like soul journey or almost
like values sort of way.
Like what do you want toexperience in this lifetime, in
this short time that we have?
(14:24):
And I think back to even thedecision to adopt rabbit, my dog
.
I was making all these excusesnot to do it, like, oh, like I
might end up traveling again andyou know, then I'll have to,
like pay to board her and blah,blah, blah.
And like I'm in a smallapartment and blah, blah, blah,
like there's all these reasonsnot to do it right, and then I
realized that the reason to doit, all of them, were much
(14:46):
bigger.
You know.
They were having more love andjoy and giving an animal a home,
things that meant so much moreto me than like worrying about
who was going to take care ofeveryone I was gone Right.
That's all stuff you figure out, and when you realize that you
can tip the scales and I've hadto practice that so much but I'm
right there with you.
Like you know, quittingquitting my first job and then
(15:07):
my second job, or again thosewere really values based and I
feel like it ultimately I couldlook back and regret it was the
wrong decision to take thatother job.
I should have just figured outa different path.
But I think I needed thatexperience to tell me I was done
, and so I'm not going to regretit For sure.
Jackie (15:24):
I think that sometimes we think, oh my God, I maybe
should not have gone in thisdirection.
But I think, like you said, andI've experienced this too,
where it's like I needed thatthing, even if it was not ideal
to teach me this.
Nope, you were, you were rightand that you went this direction
.
But I'm glad now thisexperience has shown me like,
(15:47):
absolutely without question, mygut is guiding me the right way.
Lane (15:52):
Yeah, and it comes down to as well like the more I study
astrology.
Going back to the interview wehad with Adam Ellen Boss, who
then was known as Acyuta bhavaDas, you go back to that episode
.
We talk about the question offate, and free will highly
recommend that discussion.
He's brilliant, but I've justcome to think of astrology as
like almost a cosmic clock orcosmic weather.
(16:13):
It just, you know, I don'tbelieve that the planets like
rule us in that way, but I dobelieve like there is some
correlation and it's just totalall for me of like seeing it in
action over and over how itplays out, almost sometimes to
like an annoyingly on the nosedegree, and I feel like that is
(16:36):
also a piece of my spiritualpractice of like just watching
that play out and seeing what Ilearned from that and how I can
reflect on how these things tietogether.
Jackie (16:46):
Yeah, I would certainly say my powers of observation are
heightening.
I've always been an observantperson but kind of having this
other layer of the world or thisother lens to see things
through has been veryinteresting in terms of
exercising and flexing thatmuscle, which has been really
cool to witness.
Lane (17:06):
Yes, I love that, While we came across this question and
we both loved it it's just suchan interesting one.
Will religion ever becomeobsolete?
Jackie (17:15):
This is, weirdly, something I think a lot about as
, again, somebody who was raisedand educated in the Catholic
faith.
I think it depends on how youdefine religion.
I don't know that organizedreligion as we know it will ever
become obsolete per se, but Ido think that it is a
(17:36):
fundamental part of our natureas human beings to think about,
observe, question whether or notthere is an existence of
something beyond ourselves,whatever name you want to put to
that, whether that is asingular, god, multiple deities,
whether it is extraterrestrials, star people, as they are often
(17:59):
called.
I think that that is just afundamental part of our nature
as human beings, because we havean earth and there is a
physical manifestation ofexistence that we can know.
But there's so much about theworld and the universe that we
don't know.
I think to question that isjust an inherent part of who we
are.
I think that for some people,organized religion serves as a
(18:22):
structure through which they canstart to maybe answer some of
those questions.
I think that's appealing to alot of people.
I think it's becoming lessappealing in its organized
religions, current incarnations.
I think obsolescence will dependon whether or not those
structures can adjust and adaptand essentially accept that
(18:45):
human thought is evolving, humanrelationships are evolving,
humans as terrestrial beings areevolving.
I think if structured kinds ofreligions can embrace that
rather than run away from it ordenounce it or deny it, I think
that will work to their benefit.
(19:06):
But I think, yeah, religion ina looser term, I think, will
never be obsolete, just simplybecause it's a human structure
and human beings are just.
We have an inherent curiosityand a questioning and so long as
we have that trait, I thinkreligion in its various shapes
(19:27):
and forms, I think, will alwaysexist.
Lane (19:30):
Yeah, I'm on the same side as you have this debate.
I think obsolete is just takinga little too far.
I think they might evolve, butI think ultimately and it's sort
of the very subtext of thispodcast that there is just so
much that is unseen even in ourphysical world, and just the
fact that there's atoms aroundus all the time doing their
(19:51):
thing.
I think that, to some degree,all religions whether you
consider it a god, whether youconsider it a divine mind, a
hermetic philosophy orwitchcraft there's so many ways
to look at it but ultimately,we're all trying to understand
the order of things, why thingsare the way they are, how they
work and I think science isexploring that too and whether
(20:13):
you believe in any of thosethings.
Ultimately, it's a questioningand a seeking of an answer,
whether or not you can ever becertain of that answer.
I think that's why they call itfaith, right.
I think there will always besome questioning, some seeking
some faith, exactly.
Jackie (20:31):
Yeah, it's interesting reading some of the I read a
couple of months ago I thinkit's probably the New York Times
, but some news outlets isalways tracking things like what
faith people ascribe to andtracking the numbers over time
and the numbers bear it out thatmost organized faiths are
(20:53):
losing people.
And I think again, religion isjust like anything else.
Unless you can adapt or changeor flow with who your
congregations are and who theyare becoming, people are going
to find something else.
So I'm curious to see how thosenumbers continue to ebb and
(21:13):
flow.
I think the tenor of our timesis also a testament to.
I think my guess is that a lotof people turn to various
spiritualities and religions.
During the pandemic, when hardthings and challenging things
happen, I think people tend tolook outside of our what tools
and resources that exist to findsomething else to help explain
(21:35):
things.
But I think as we move into alot more crises as humans, I'm
curious to see where people willturn to for answers or
explanations or inspiration.
I agree.
Lane (21:50):
Yeah, I've definitely noticed there's a flow into
witchcraft and nature-basedreligion, at least in my sphere,
and I think it's reallyinteresting.
On one hand, our generation andyounger have been through so
many just unprecedented eventsand we're watching our planet
burn.
Of course there's going to besome attraction to something
(22:14):
that gives you a little bit moreof a sense of personal
empowerment and that aligns withnature.
I think that you know, from myperspective it makes a lot of
sense.
But that's not to say thatother religions can't offer that
.
But I do feel, coming from aChristian background, I felt a
little bit more boxed in in alot of ways and that it was all
(22:34):
up to God and it wasn't so muchup to me.
You know, I just had to be agood girl, right?
Jackie (22:41):
Yeah, I think the personal empowerment part is
really key, because I do thinkand I think at least this was my
own experience that was like ifyou do all these things, you
are totally good in God's eyes.
God has got you.
Just follow these rules andyou'll be cool, life will go
great for you.
And you know it's like okay,but I'm following the rules.
I'm like there's a couple ofshitty things that happened to
(23:03):
me.
So like, bro, what was that?
Where were you, you know?
And no one had an answer and itwas like okay, well, I think
we're done here.
And then, which isn't to saythat there aren't like
principles or ideas fromCatholicism that I don't.
I didn't throw the baby outwith the bathwater.
There are certainly things thatI still carry with me and then
things that I feel that are veryvalid.
But I think, yeah, that sort ofidea that, like you as a human
(23:26):
being, it's this weird dichotomybetween quote like you have
free will, you can still makeyour choices, and then this idea
that like, okay, god's stillcontrolling everything.
So it's like which is it?
Pick a struggle?
And I think that that manyother forms of spirituality
offer that kind of like yes, youcan, like you are actually in
(23:46):
control of a lot of things, ifnot all things, depending on
what flavor appeals to you.
But yeah, I can certainly seethat as being kind of a sort of
key attraction to differentkinds of spiritual practices.
I think particularly for peoplewho identify as queer.
You know folks that have beenhistorically maligned by
Christianity, especially yourJudeo-Christian faiths.
(24:09):
I can definitely see that beingappealing as well.
Absolutely yeah.
Lane (24:14):
Well, let's move along to our last one.
Do you ask enough questions ordo you settle for what you know?
Jackie (24:21):
I really love this question because it's a reminder
to me that, as a highlyintuitive being, I don't lean on
my intuition enough.
That's the one part, right, butthen there's also the historian
side of me, who just is a totalresearch rabbit hole nerd, that
I am constantly looking forinformation, and I think my
(24:45):
personal struggle is finding thebalance.
Finding the balance of figuringout what are the right
questions to ask and thenrelying on my own intuitive
knowledge about myself and myexperiences.
Lane (25:00):
Yeah, I think it's funny.
I have to look at this questionfrom different facets of life.
I think in my every day, asboth a coach and interview-based
podcaster, I ask a lot ofquestions.
However however, I think, evenin this period of transition
that I've been in, I think thisquestion is really helpful for
(25:22):
me, in that I know that I have afew things that I want to
develop and potentially havesome offerings more coaching
offerings, more astrologyofferings and kind of moving
into that but I'm also, at thesame time, might not be asking
you enough questions there ofwhat else there could be.
I've started to become sort ofattracted to herbalism a little
(25:43):
bit more and, particularly as itrelates to planetary
correspondences and that sort ofthing, starting to think a lot
about that and how I mightincorporate it somehow.
Yeah, there's a lot ofquestions I could be asking
there, so I don't know, it's agood guiding question.
Jackie (25:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that's sort of thewhole point of this podcast is
to ask people questions aboutthings that we want to know more
about, don't know enough about.
But this is also part of what Ialluded to before, which is I
have this tendency to be in myhead and sometimes I need to ask
(26:20):
those questions to make surethat I'm staying grounded and
that I'm not I'm not just seeingthings entirely through my own
experience, and I sometimes needto ask those questions to get
confirmation or just to get moreinformation to either confirm
or deny, or what have you aboutmy own perception of my
(26:41):
experience.
So sometimes that's a reallyimportant way for me to kind of
get out of myself a little bit.
But I think, yeah, finding thatbalance for me of like when do
I not need to search theinternet for something I already
know?
And like why is that kind of myweird tendency?
And like I think it's just partof it is that my intuitive
(27:04):
muscles are underdeveloped, andI think it's part of that is an
extension of figuring out how toget that muscle in better shape
, and we'll see what happens.
Lane (27:16):
That's really interesting, that idea of like how much can
you trust what you know?
Jackie (27:20):
Mmm hmm.
I mean I can say that I've everthat intuition has ever really
led me astray, but I thinkthere's so much of our
experience living in the UnitedStates at this particular point
in time, under these varioussystems, that forces us to deny
what our own spirits and bodiesare telling us.
(27:42):
So, yeah, I'm really, as theseason's starting to shape up,
I'm really liking the way thatit's sort of responding to some
of these things that we talkedabout today and I just love
again, one of the things I justI love about our podcast is just
the different perspectives andlife experiences that we get to
(28:02):
witness and hear about and sharewith you all, and that
continues to evolve and I'mexcited, as always, for the
people that we get to bring intoyour ear holes.
Lane (28:13):
Yes, I'm honored by every conversation that we get to have
, and including this one withyou.
So thank you, Jackie.
And thank you to all thelisteners out there, hope you're
having a delightful fall andyou'll be hearing more episodes
from us shortly.
That's it for our show today.
(28:36):
Listeners, as always, thanks for tuning in.
If you enjoyed what you heardtoday.
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com.
Today's episode was edited byLane Collins and produced by
(29:00):
Lane Collins and Jackie Peterson.
Our theme music is by theever-talented Smoke Bonito and
our cover artwork is by EricCenteno.
Until next time, blessed it be.
Welcome to the Outer Known, a podcast that shines a
light on the outer edges ofinner knowing.
Lane (00:29):
It's fall - can you believe it?
Truly, like every time I lookout the window, I'm just
thinking a lot about, you know,the summer and how it went this
year, what all the decisionsI've made in my life this year
already.
It's been an eventful year forme and I keep thinking about I
don't remember who said this,but the saying that there are
some years that ask questionsand some years that answer, and
(00:52):
I feel like this has been alittle bit of a mix of both.
Jackie (00:55):
Yeah, I think about that statement a lot, and I think
this year has been a lot ofanswering questions for me
really sort of interesting and,in a lot of ways, unsettling
ways.
Lane (01:08):
Tell us more.
I think there's just been aweird energy hanging over me
this year because a lot of workstuff is in a weird place and I
think just in life I'm in aweird place and I think as I'm
getting further into my 40s,things are becoming in a lot of
ways less clear and so thereinsort of feels like a little bit
(01:31):
of struggle.
I relate to that for sure.
I've been through some bigtransitions this year.
I quit two jobs this year.
Jackie (01:41):
Loud quitting.
Lane (01:42):
Yes, loud quitting, and I'm in a space of purposefully
asking a lot of questions nowand just trying to be open and
allow myself to be a little bitbored, and it's challenging.
Jackie (01:57):
Yeah, I definitely struggle with boredom.
I struggle with, I think, likea lot of us, the sort of
capitalist urge to constantly bedoing something, and I've been
really.
I think part of my sort of lineof inquiry for myself is like,
yeah, how do I figure out somestillness?
(02:18):
Because I think some of thoseanswers come from that and
that's kind of been reallychallenging for me.
Lane (02:26):
Re latable.
Well, we have a few questionsthat we prep today to kind of
explore together, which I'mreally excited about.
So first up is (02:33):
What role does spirituality play in your life?
Jackie (02:39):
That's a good question.
It's an evolving one, I think.
As somebody who went toreligious schools my literally
my entire education I think it'ssomething I just sort of took
for granted that I went throughthe ritual of it and I just took
it for granted that it'ssomething I was supposed to do,
without really questioning whyor what it was doing.
(03:01):
But I think of late it's reallygiven me an opportunity to just
sort of see the worlddifferently, and not so much as
a given but something that I cankind of lean on a little bit to
sort of give me different kindsof answers.
Not answer but maybe nudge somethings that maybe I already
knew.
You know, sometimes you havethose experiences where you know
(03:23):
the answer and you knowintuitively what's up, but you
just need someone or somethingelse to state it plainly for you
to be like oh okay, that's,that's it.
I've kind of been having a lotof those experiences lately
where, either through tarot orthrough kind of other things,
I've been putting things out andgetting the answers back-- less
(03:46):
answers, more confirmations ofthings that I already knew.
So that's sort of been aninteresting, an interesting
thing that's been, I think,trending recently in my
relationship to spirituality andthe sort of universe of things
unknown.
Lane (04:01):
Yeah, what you're saying there for me is also important.
I think before I came toWitchcraft and before I began
doing this podcast with you, Ihad a lot of experiences that I
had just dismissed, and gettingthat information and, in some
ways, validation of like, oh,there are people who experience
(04:24):
these kinds of things and theyare subtle and they are
subjective and a littledifferent for everyone, but they
are spiritual in nature andit's not, you know, just me
being a unfortunately this islike some internalized misogyny
right here but, like you know, aflaky woo woo girl.
I think there was a lot of thatthat I held on to before my own
(04:48):
kind of like journey in my 30sand yeah, really, really to that
.
Jackie (04:53):
Yeah, it feels good because I think I think I'm the
kind of person who I thinkpartially this is sort of Pisces
energy for me, but like I tendto be someone who's very in her
head about things and so thishas allowed me to sort of be
like, hey, out there, like am Ijust making this up or is this
really a thing?
(05:14):
And you know, maybe theresponses don't always look like
I expect them to, but it's likeokay, yeah, that's a thing.
Or oh, okay, cool, no, I wasjust making that up, or maybe
being led in the wrong direction.
So it's been sort of a nicecheck to my own-- insecurities
is a too strong a word-- butlike you know my own kind of
(05:35):
doubts or my own questioning ofwhat's what's what I'm feeling,
what I'm thinking, kind ofwhat's going on energetically.
Lane (05:42):
Yeah, I think for me, even in the very structured studies
that I do, I'm alwaysapproaching it without certainty
, with a sense of skepticism orquestioning, because I think I'm
just kind of seeking and likelooking for you know what I
think and feel and into it.
And so I recently completed, inAugust, my fourth year of
(06:06):
Mystery School Studies of theTemple of Witchcraft.
Jackie (06:08):
Woo, congratulations! LANE
This year I felt so much moreemotional and a little bit at
sea after completing it and thatreally struck me because at the
start of this year I was like,oh, this is all really cool, but
it's like very heady material,it's all you know.
It was all around the cabalaand ceremonial magic and it
wasn't necessarily somethingthat I fully resonated with in
(06:32):
terms of what I think myeveryday practice will overall
kind of evolve into.
But at the same time there wasa lot of inherent value and and
like really interesting mysteryand and it did really sit with
me in this like way that I feltmade me grow and I don't know, I
think after that year I'm justkind of looking ahead and maybe
(06:56):
it's just where I am in life.
As you know, we were saying aswell on this transition period,
but it feels like a transitionin my spiritual practice too,
and the more that I learn, themore I want to know, the more I
want to explore, and I can'tstop buying occult books.
It's kind of a problem.
I can't stop buying books in general, which is a
(07:17):
problem.
Lane (07:17):
Fair but you know, I think this winter for me will be
kind of a.
I think I'm just kind offeeling this like I want to kind
of go back and with what I knownow, almost like redesign my,
my rituals and the ways that Ithink about things, and then, I
don't know, wanting to make itmy own a little bit more, based
on what I've learned.
Jackie (07:38):
Yeah, that's a really neat kind of way to reflect, I
think, also on how far you'vecome and what things are still
resonating and valuable for youversus what things don't speak
to you anymore, and build apractice around that, which I
always think is pretty cool.
Lane (07:53):
Yeah, and for me, I think I've never been good at routine.
I don't know what it is aboutme, maybe it's a Pisces thing,
but I've always really likedevery day to be a little bit
different, you know, or it'sjust kind of flow with how I'm
feeling or what the day is andwhat I have planned.
But I do want to develop alittle bit more of a daily
(08:15):
practice, something I can do alittle bit more consistently,
even if it's for just setperiods, you know, like 30 days
or something, and just kind ofexplore that a little for myself
and see how it feels.
We'll see how I develop that.
Jackie (08:26):
Yeah, I think my sort of task for myself, I think, is to
figure out what my blocks arearound that, because I struggle
a lot with consistency and Ihave tried lots of different
things.
It's like, ok, I'm going to dothis thing every day and, like
you know, I might be able tocommit to it for like a week or
two and then something happensand then I get distracted and
(08:49):
then I never go back to it.
So I think that's my, my taskthis fall is to figure that out
for myself.
Lane (08:55):
Look at us.
Yeah trying routine.
Jackie (09:00):
Definitely so, speaking of not being in routines and
sort of letting things happen asthey may, do you believe in
fate?
Lane (09:09):
I really love this question.
It's so juicy because I thinkthrough my life it's really
changed.
When I was young, growing up, Ialways really deeply believed
in fate and it kind of took adifficult emotional situation
and kind of a spiritualawakening, starting in my 20s,
moving into my 30s, to kind oflike I don't know, I just
(09:31):
flipped it on its head and I nolonger did.
And then now, the more I'vestudied astrology, the longer
we've done this podcast and themore people from all different
backgrounds that we've talked to, I think I believe in, or
starting to believe in, and Iwouldn't say I feel certain and
I don't think I ever necessarilywill of anything.
However, it's like a differentversion of fate, this concept
(09:53):
that we keep coming across ofour souls agreeing to incarnate
on this earth in this physicalplane.
That's the first Sephora andKabbalah, as well as called
Malkut.
It's all about the physicalplane.
It's the bottom of the tree andit's that experiential physical
thing and it leads up into theothers and I just find that
(10:16):
interesting and I've just beenruminating on it for a while now
and I really think that it'slike okay, there's a degree to
which some people believe oursouls even agree to the time and
place and way that they willpass on and that kind of stuff
and.
I don't know what I think aboutthat, but I do feel if I'm to
believe in an incarnation ofsorts, then we choose how we
(10:38):
will develop in this lifetime.
I don't know to what specifics,and so I think that's maybe the
version of fate that I havestarted to believe in.
How about you?
Jackie (10:48):
I really appreciate that perspective.
That's certainly a much deeperlevel than the way I've ever
thought about it and wow, that'sgiven me actually something to
think about.
But for myself, I would sayI've always believed in fate,
but maybe, yeah, again, notnecessarily, maybe slightly in
the more kind of traditionalinterpretation of it.
(11:10):
But I was actually thinkingabout this the other day and
I've always felt justenergetically that and maybe I'm
kind of conflating twodifferent things, but I've
always felt that I've been thisis going to sound silly, but I
always had this sort of likecharmed life, if you will that I
feel like I've been very luckythat I've been.
(11:32):
I've had resources most of mylife.
I've grown up mostly middleclass, I've had access to food
and education and you know sortof those basic things.
But you know, when I thinkabout sort of certain moments
throughout my life, there'salways I've always had a feeling
that there's been someintervention on my behalf in a
way that either has prevented mefrom something bad or
(11:56):
catastrophic happening or, youknow, door has been opened, the
if you think about a railroadtrack, you know the train is
diverted to a different track inthe nick of time, like that
kind of thing I've always had asense of.
But I think as I've gotten olderI've definitely seen things
kind of show up on my doorstepbut it's still on me to kind of
(12:18):
follow through it's.
It's more of an active kind ofparticipation where you know the
the sort of terrible cliche of,y ou know, you can bring a
horse to water but you can'tmake it drink.
The horse has to make thatdecision.
And so I'm now feeling morelike a horse these days where
you know I can sort of the thingcan be brought to me or I can
(12:38):
be brought to the thing, butit's still ultimately my
decision to act on it or to dowith what I will, the
information that I'm given.
So I definitely still believeit's.
It plays a very active role inmy life.
But I think the more consciousI become about things beyond me
and those you know obviously notknowing all of the answers I
(12:59):
never will but just being moreaware of that has certainly led
me to be a more activeparticipant.
You know I always think aboutthe sort of fate versus free
will debate, which I don't thinkis a debate at all.
It's.
It's for me it's always been atboth end.
But I feel like, definitely morelike on the active free will
side when fate shows up at mydoor.
(13:19):
I'm conscious that I have achoice to make and I'm also just
being more conscious about whatthe outcomes of those choices
could be, and maybe not beatingmyself up as much if I make the
wrong choice, or even you knowthe idea that there really
aren't wrong choices.
There are, some choices arebetter than others, and it's
(13:40):
just what kind of outcome do Iwant?
Lane (13:42):
Yes, I so agree with that.
Like I used to struggle withdecisions on almost like a
deathly scale, where it was likeI had this deep fear that I
would just end up in a guttersomewhere if I made the wrong
choice.
Like it was just, you know,almost life or death, and it
really paralyzed me for a lot ofmy life.
And it's something that I, youknow, have consciously become
(14:03):
better at through a lot oftherapy.
But I think, for me, what Ihave realized is, you know, it's
important to have your sense ofwhat matters to you, not just
in an earthly way, but in a sortof like soul journey or almost
like values sort of way.
Like what do you want toexperience in this lifetime, in
this short time that we have?
(14:24):
And I think back to even thedecision to adopt rabbit, my dog
.
I was making all these excusesnot to do it, like, oh, like I
might end up traveling again andyou know, then I'll have to,
like pay to board her and blah,blah, blah.
And like I'm in a smallapartment and blah, blah, blah,
like there's all these reasonsnot to do it right, and then I
realized that the reason to doit, all of them, were much
(14:46):
bigger.
You know.
They were having more love andjoy and giving an animal a home,
things that meant so much moreto me than like worrying about
who was going to take care ofeveryone I was gone Right.
That's all stuff you figure out, and when you realize that you
can tip the scales and I've hadto practice that so much but I'm
right there with you.
Like you know, quittingquitting my first job and then
(15:07):
my second job, or again thosewere really values based and I
feel like it ultimately I couldlook back and regret it was the
wrong decision to take thatother job.
I should have just figured outa different path.
But I think I needed thatexperience to tell me I was done
, and so I'm not going to regretit For sure.
Jackie (15:24):
I think that sometimes we think, oh my God, I maybe
should not have gone in thisdirection.
But I think, like you said, andI've experienced this too,
where it's like I needed thatthing, even if it was not ideal
to teach me this.
Nope, you were, you were rightand that you went this direction
.
But I'm glad now thisexperience has shown me like,
(15:47):
absolutely without question, mygut is guiding me the right way.
Lane (15:52):
Yeah, and it comes down to as well like the more I study
astrology.
Going back to the interview wehad with Adam Ellen Boss, who
then was known as Acyuta bhavaDas, you go back to that episode
.
We talk about the question offate, and free will highly
recommend that discussion.
He's brilliant, but I've justcome to think of astrology as
like almost a cosmic clock orcosmic weather.
(16:13):
It just, you know, I don'tbelieve that the planets like
rule us in that way, but I dobelieve like there is some
correlation and it's just totalall for me of like seeing it in
action over and over how itplays out, almost sometimes to
like an annoyingly on the nosedegree, and I feel like that is
(16:36):
also a piece of my spiritualpractice of like just watching
that play out and seeing what Ilearned from that and how I can
reflect on how these things tietogether.
Jackie (16:46):
Yeah, I would certainly say my powers of observation are
heightening.
I've always been an observantperson but kind of having this
other layer of the world or thisother lens to see things
through has been veryinteresting in terms of
exercising and flexing thatmuscle, which has been really
cool to witness.
Lane (17:06):
Yes, I love that, While we came across this question and
we both loved it it's just suchan interesting one.
Will religion ever becomeobsolete?
Jackie (17:15):
This is, weirdly, something I think a lot about as
, again, somebody who was raisedand educated in the Catholic
faith.
I think it depends on how youdefine religion.
I don't know that organizedreligion as we know it will ever
become obsolete per se, but Ido think that it is a
(17:36):
fundamental part of our natureas human beings to think about,
observe, question whether or notthere is an existence of
something beyond ourselves,whatever name you want to put to
that, whether that is asingular, god, multiple deities,
whether it is extraterrestrials, star people, as they are often
(17:59):
called.
I think that that is just afundamental part of our nature
as human beings, because we havean earth and there is a
physical manifestation ofexistence that we can know.
But there's so much about theworld and the universe that we
don't know.
I think to question that isjust an inherent part of who we
are.
I think that for some people,organized religion serves as a
(18:22):
structure through which they canstart to maybe answer some of
those questions.
I think that's appealing to alot of people.
I think it's becoming lessappealing in its organized
religions, current incarnations.
I think obsolescence will dependon whether or not those
structures can adjust and adaptand essentially accept that
(18:45):
human thought is evolving, humanrelationships are evolving,
humans as terrestrial beings areevolving.
I think if structured kinds ofreligions can embrace that
rather than run away from it ordenounce it or deny it, I think
that will work to their benefit.
(19:06):
But I think, yeah, religion ina looser term, I think, will
never be obsolete, just simplybecause it's a human structure
and human beings are just.
We have an inherent curiosityand a questioning and so long as
we have that trait, I thinkreligion in its various shapes
(19:27):
and forms, I think, will alwaysexist.
Lane (19:30):
Yeah, I'm on the same side as you have this debate.
I think obsolete is just takinga little too far.
I think they might evolve, butI think ultimately and it's sort
of the very subtext of thispodcast that there is just so
much that is unseen even in ourphysical world, and just the
fact that there's atoms aroundus all the time doing their
(19:51):
thing.
I think that, to some degree,all religions whether you
consider it a god, whether youconsider it a divine mind, a
hermetic philosophy orwitchcraft there's so many ways
to look at it but ultimately,we're all trying to understand
the order of things, why thingsare the way they are, how they
work and I think science isexploring that too and whether
(20:13):
you believe in any of thosethings.
Ultimately, it's a questioningand a seeking of an answer,
whether or not you can ever becertain of that answer.
I think that's why they call itfaith, right.
I think there will always besome questioning, some seeking
some faith, exactly.
Jackie (20:31):
Yeah, it's interesting reading some of the I read a
couple of months ago I thinkit's probably the New York Times
, but some news outlets isalways tracking things like what
faith people ascribe to andtracking the numbers over time
and the numbers bear it out thatmost organized faiths are
(20:53):
losing people.
And I think again, religion isjust like anything else.
Unless you can adapt or changeor flow with who your
congregations are and who theyare becoming, people are going
to find something else.
So I'm curious to see how thosenumbers continue to ebb and
(21:13):
flow.
I think the tenor of our timesis also a testament to.
I think my guess is that a lotof people turn to various
spiritualities and religions.
During the pandemic, when hardthings and challenging things
happen, I think people tend tolook outside of our what tools
and resources that exist to findsomething else to help explain
(21:35):
things.
But I think as we move into alot more crises as humans, I'm
curious to see where people willturn to for answers or
explanations or inspiration.
I agree.
Lane (21:50):
Yeah, I've definitely noticed there's a flow into
witchcraft and nature-basedreligion, at least in my sphere,
and I think it's reallyinteresting.
On one hand, our generation andyounger have been through so
many just unprecedented eventsand we're watching our planet
burn.
Of course there's going to besome attraction to something
(22:14):
that gives you a little bit moreof a sense of personal
empowerment and that aligns withnature.
I think that you know, from myperspective it makes a lot of
sense.
But that's not to say thatother religions can't offer that
.
But I do feel, coming from aChristian background, I felt a
little bit more boxed in in alot of ways and that it was all
(22:34):
up to God and it wasn't so muchup to me.
You know, I just had to be agood girl, right?
Jackie (22:41):
Yeah, I think the personal empowerment part is
really key, because I do thinkand I think at least this was my
own experience that was like ifyou do all these things, you
are totally good in God's eyes.
God has got you.
Just follow these rules andyou'll be cool, life will go
great for you.
And you know it's like okay,but I'm following the rules.
I'm like there's a couple ofshitty things that happened to
(23:03):
me.
So like, bro, what was that?
Where were you, you know?
And no one had an answer and itwas like okay, well, I think
we're done here.
And then, which isn't to saythat there aren't like
principles or ideas fromCatholicism that I don't.
I didn't throw the baby outwith the bathwater.
There are certainly things thatI still carry with me and then
things that I feel that are veryvalid.
But I think, yeah, that sort ofidea that, like you as a human
(23:26):
being, it's this weird dichotomybetween quote like you have
free will, you can still makeyour choices, and then this idea
that like, okay, god's stillcontrolling everything.
So it's like which is it?
Pick a struggle?
And I think that that manyother forms of spirituality
offer that kind of like yes, youcan, like you are actually in
(23:46):
control of a lot of things, ifnot all things, depending on
what flavor appeals to you.
But yeah, I can certainly seethat as being kind of a sort of
key attraction to differentkinds of spiritual practices.
I think particularly for peoplewho identify as queer.
You know folks that have beenhistorically maligned by
Christianity, especially yourJudeo-Christian faiths.
(24:09):
I can definitely see that beingappealing as well.
Absolutely yeah.
Lane (24:14):
Well, let's move along to our last one.
Do you ask enough questions ordo you settle for what you know?
Jackie (24:21):
I really love this question because it's a reminder
to me that, as a highlyintuitive being, I don't lean on
my intuition enough.
That's the one part, right, butthen there's also the historian
side of me, who just is a totalresearch rabbit hole nerd, that
I am constantly looking forinformation, and I think my
(24:45):
personal struggle is finding thebalance.
Finding the balance of figuringout what are the right
questions to ask and thenrelying on my own intuitive
knowledge about myself and myexperiences.
Lane (25:00):
Yeah, I think it's funny.
I have to look at this questionfrom different facets of life.
I think in my every day, asboth a coach and interview-based
podcaster, I ask a lot ofquestions.
However however, I think, evenin this period of transition
that I've been in, I think thisquestion is really helpful for
(25:22):
me, in that I know that I have afew things that I want to
develop and potentially havesome offerings more coaching
offerings, more astrologyofferings and kind of moving
into that but I'm also, at thesame time, might not be asking
you enough questions there ofwhat else there could be.
I've started to become sort ofattracted to herbalism a little
(25:43):
bit more and, particularly as itrelates to planetary
correspondences and that sort ofthing, starting to think a lot
about that and how I mightincorporate it somehow.
Yeah, there's a lot ofquestions I could be asking
there, so I don't know, it's agood guiding question.
Jackie (25:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that's sort of thewhole point of this podcast is
to ask people questions aboutthings that we want to know more
about, don't know enough about.
But this is also part of what Ialluded to before, which is I
have this tendency to be in myhead and sometimes I need to ask
(26:20):
those questions to make surethat I'm staying grounded and
that I'm not I'm not just seeingthings entirely through my own
experience, and I sometimes needto ask those questions to get
confirmation or just to get moreinformation to either confirm
or deny, or what have you aboutmy own perception of my
(26:41):
experience.
So sometimes that's a reallyimportant way for me to kind of
get out of myself a little bit.
But I think, yeah, finding thatbalance for me of like when do
I not need to search theinternet for something I already
know?
And like why is that kind of myweird tendency?
And like I think it's just partof it is that my intuitive
(27:04):
muscles are underdeveloped, andI think it's part of that is an
extension of figuring out how toget that muscle in better shape
, and we'll see what happens.
Lane (27:16):
That's really interesting, that idea of like how much can
you trust what you know?
Jackie (27:20):
Mmm hmm.
I mean I can say that I've everthat intuition has ever really
led me astray, but I thinkthere's so much of our
experience living in the UnitedStates at this particular point
in time, under these varioussystems, that forces us to deny
what our own spirits and bodiesare telling us.
(27:42):
So, yeah, I'm really, as theseason's starting to shape up,
I'm really liking the way thatit's sort of responding to some
of these things that we talkedabout today and I just love
again, one of the things I justI love about our podcast is just
the different perspectives andlife experiences that we get to
(28:02):
witness and hear about and sharewith you all, and that
continues to evolve and I'mexcited, as always, for the
people that we get to bring intoyour ear holes.
Lane (28:13):
Yes, I'm honored by every conversation that we get to have
, and including this one withyou.
So thank you, Jackie.
And thank you to all thelisteners out there, hope you're
having a delightful fall andyou'll be hearing more episodes
from us shortly.
That's it for our show today.
(28:36):
Listeners, as always, thanks for tuning in.
If you enjoyed what you heardtoday.
You can find and follow theOuter Known on any platform
where you get podcasts.
Keep the conversation going byjoining us on social media.
We are at Outer Known Pod onInstagram and Twitter.
Our home for all things OuterKnown is our website,
outerknownpod.
com.
Today's episode was edited byLane Collins and produced by
(29:00):
Lane Collins and Jackie Peterson.
Our theme music is by theever-talented Smoke Bonito and
our cover artwork is by EricCenteno.
Until next time, blessed it be.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com