The Gear Shift from Engineering to Entrepreneurship with Paul McCoy

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When the curiosity of a young farm tinkerer merges with the tenacity of a Formula One aspirant, you get Paul McCoy's enthralling saga of passion driving a career from mechanical engineering to global entrepreneurship. In our latest episode, Paul regales us with stories from his varied career, from the adrenaline release of rugby, to leading teams in Rolls Royce's engineering department, to the cultural shocks and delights of working abroad. His musings on strategic career moves—renting out his house, quitting a steady job, and embracing international opportunities—showcase a man who's not just chasing dreams but catching them.

Crossing continents and careers, Paul shares the stark contrasts and surprising parallels he's encountered. Where one might see an engineer, we see a maestro of adaptability, guiding us through his transition from corporate executive to consultant and coach, illuminating the financial and cultural nuances along the way. His anecdotes range from navigating the economic downturn to empowering team members like Becky, a disenchanted colleague whose business transformation underscores the profound impact of leadership and coaching.

Tune in for an episode that intertwines lessons on mental performance with hearty laughs about networking faux pas and fashionably late arrivals. Whether you're looking to enhance your business acumen with continuous improvement strategies or seeking personal growth tips that align with the teachings of Napoleon Hill, Paul’s journey through employee engagement and the art of hiring will leave you inspired. Join us for an expedition into the heart of entrepreneurship, painted with the broad strokes of business truths and the finer details of workplace professionalism.

Episode Transcript

Zach (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Owner's Odyssey, the podcast
where we delve deep into thetransformative stories of
courageous business owners whohave embarked on an
extraordinary adventure.
I'm Zach Jones and I'm BrookeGattia.
We're here to explore the reallife experiences of
entrepreneurs.

Brook (00:22):
Each episode, we'll embark on a quest to uncover the
trials, triumphs andtransformations of remarkable
individuals who dared to answerthe call of entrepreneurship.

Zach (00:34):
Like all adventurers, our guests have faced their fair
share of challenges, vanquishedformidable foes and braved the
unknown.

Brook (00:41):
Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur, a
seasoned business owner orsimply an avid listener hungry
for captivating stories.

Zach (00:47):
The Owner's Odyssey is here to help you level up.
So join us as we embark on thisepic expedition.
This is the Owner's Odyssey.
Let's start our adventure.

Brook (01:03):
So today we're going to chit chat with Mr Paul McCoy.
Huh, we are, we are.
I met Paul through a guy whosaid, hey, you need to meet Paul
, and I said, okay, reached outto him.
No, I think you reached out tome and I kind of ignored you.
I didn't really mean to ignoreyou, but life was crazy, ghosted
me Kind of like a couple timesand you were consistent and
persistent and it was greatbecause then when I met you, we

(01:25):
went out to Starbucks.
Um, you have fantastic stories.
I was totally like I kind oflike this guy.
He's kind of cool.
Um, yeah, and you do.
You have a funny accent, whichnot really.
Um, but give us a littlebackground on Mr Paul McCoy.
You are not from the U S, youare from down under.
No, not really I'm kidding.

Paul (01:46):
Give us your little background how you got over here
all of that stuff?

Brook (01:48):
Probably not.

Paul (01:51):
Okay.
So I keep on being asked whereI'm from Originally.
I sort of looked at when Ifirst came across here.
I saw the UK on some t-shirtsand they were really good
basketball players at collegeand went they're not from the uk
, it was university kentucky.
So my joke is I'm from kentucky, which is where a lot of

(02:13):
british and irish immigrantscame, went to, and that's the
irish bit is probably why, um,there's the anger in this, in
that part of the country, andthe mccoys in the hat fields um
were from Kentucky and that'swhy they fought.
Okay, the mountain people.
So anyway, I am not from aroundhere.
I was born in the UnitedKingdom, in New York.
A Roman and lastly found out itwas a Viking town, so lots of

(02:37):
history there Moved to theoriginal Boston, boston,
lincolnshire, where we'll begoing in a couple of weeks,
where my parents still live wentto Nottingham University or
University of Nottingham and didmechanical engineering.

Brook (02:51):
So why did you choose mechanical engineering?

Paul (02:53):
Because I love fixing stuff.

Brook (02:55):
I love you know, did you drink it with cars and stuff
like that?

Paul (02:58):
Yeah, my father was.
My father was originally he wasborn a farmer's son and had
been farming for a lot of time.
And then there was somejuncture where he and my
grandfather who I never met theydecided to part ways, and in
doing so, my father then becamea sales guy for agricultural

(03:18):
equipment, and then, when I wasborn, he was managing multiple
facilities or facilities, and atone point we lived on a farm.
That's full of stories,starting a combine harvester at
five, with everything moving.

Brook (03:34):
So you're big into the engineering of it all?
Yeah, engineered, engineered.

Paul (03:39):
So I've always been very good at mathematics and I've
always tried to.
You know, I like to see howthings work.
I'm always inquisitive, like Ilook at stuff and go, oh, how
does it work, how can I applythat little idea to something
else?
Maybe that in my life orwhatever.
So my, my house, I'm sure, isfull of stuff that's got, little

(04:02):
things that I ought to try andcommercialize because I've
hacked a system that pulled itfrom one system to another.

Zach (04:05):
You're an inventor in this .
As an engineer, can you thinkof an example of any of those
things?
Just out of curiosity.

Paul (04:14):
It will come to me.
I have invented certain thingswithin my work.
I'll go through my workspaceand then try and remember
something that I've, that I'veinvented, that should have been
commercialized.
Um, so mechanical engineering,um, ended up with a bachelor of
engineering honors, which I hearis really important and during

(04:34):
that, during that process, theeducation phase of things were
you did you know what you wantedto do yet?

Zach (04:41):
Or I mean, obviously you knew the kind of field or you
know the the focus that youwanted to be in.
I mean, obviously you knew thekind of field or you know the
focus that you wanted to be in,but did you have any kind of
sense of kind of what your rolewas going to be in that yet?

Paul (04:50):
I was going down the design, the mechanical
engineering design route, um, Ilooked into motor racing.
Um, you know, formula one wassomething that I'd been
introduced to and basically, youknow that was a route.
It was, you know, sort of andsort of throughout, when I did a

(05:10):
placement within my four-yeardegree for a few months at a
pharmaceutical company and I wascommissioning you know part of
it was noise commissioning plantand that was very well paid but
boring, you know, because itwas just drugs.
You know, cause it was justjust drugs.
You know it's just me, justdrugs.

Brook (05:28):
I think a lot of people think it's more than just drugs,
but you know, but that makessense from the mechanical, you
know engineering standpoint.
It's not a machine that youhave to get to do things Right.

Paul (05:38):
There's no gizmo to play with.
There were machines to packageand what have you, but it was
was.
It was not as you buy that fromsomeone else and you just make
it, make it work, um, so I, Idid that and I went.
No, I really don't want to dothat.
So in the uk they do, thecompanies do what's called the
milk round.
They go to a university andthey'll every single company

(05:59):
will go for that week or weekendor that whatever.
That's an apparent amount oftime and you look at all these
people coming and you'll justhave application forms fill out
and then they'll invite you ifthey think you're good enough,
um, for an interview.
So I went into britishpetroleum, um, which is working
on oil rigs.
So I didn't want to do that.

(06:19):
I, I think I got the job andwent.
Nah, I looked into some of therace teams but they wanted
experience, so it was okay.
How can I get experience insomething that's very unique and
very technical and probably themost complex I think it's been
known to be the most complexrotating machine in the world
which is a jet engine or gasturbine.
So I applied to Rolls-Royce andthat was funny.

(06:43):
I was sat there in theinterview and the alarms went
off and a phone rang in the room.
This guy had got borrowed anoffice from someone.
The phone rang so he picked itup and said oh, there's been a
bomb threat in the university.
Oh, wow, and it was someone.
It was a fake and we were farenough away from where this

(07:04):
person was going to do thespeech, this politician who got
lots of egg and flour on him ashe walked from his car to.
But it was far enough away.
The guy looked at me and Ishould have probably responded
differently.
He said you good with theinterview.
Carrying on, I knew risk-wiseit was pretty low that something
was going to happen and we weregoing to be impacted.
But Rolls-Royce is a very riskadverse business, so maybe I

(07:31):
should have thought differently.
But anyway, I carried on.
Um, I got the job and uh startedwith uh, excuse me, started
with rolls royce in uh, coventryand uh did graduate training
for about a year, uh, which wasbasically you weren't really at
work, you were playing outbound,you're doing courses to get
your knowledge up on gasturbines, looking after a kids'
camp, which was leadership.
It was really fun doing it.

(07:55):
We had I think it was, we hadthree people who were the
overseers and there wereprobably around 10 graduates and
then there was a gaggle of kidsand we had to look after them.
We had to feed them, we had toentertain them.
That was you talk about.

(08:15):
You know, there was a guy whotook on the entertainment thing.
He says I know kids, you know,I went to school with them or
something like that, but he wasa Sea Scout leader.
Kids, you know, I went toschool with him or something
like that, but he was a seascout leader.
And uh, he said, okay, hour onewe're going to do.
We'll do three activities andbreak them into three groups and
then they'll all swap them,swap apart.
Within five minutes of doingactivity one they got bored, the
kids got bored, so activity twohad to go out.

(08:37):
Within 15 minutes he was shot.
He had a nervous breakdown.
This guy literally had anervous breakdown and left the
camp.
So it was reaction mode.
So about four of us gottogether, we just worked and we
basically had to pull this camptogether and put this program
together and we just….

Zach (08:57):
What is the mindset behind setting you on that task, in
that….
So your graduate trainingtraining is really pulling you,
trying to understand yourdemeanor individually um your
ability to work in groups sothere was still an element of
like analysis, oh yeah, in termsof you like still a kind of
qualifying element in terms ofcandidates.

(09:18):
Okay, right.

Paul (09:19):
so there were three people who were from this leadership
group and then there weregraduates that were running the
camp, but they were helping withdirection and making sure that
we met all the rules and stuff,and then the kids.
So we had to basically put aplan together, present the plan.

Brook (09:33):
This is your first coaching experience.
Yeah, pretty much.

Paul (09:37):
Those kids, yeah, I tell you that was tough.
These were from Bristol in theUnited Kingdom area that had a
lot of riots around the sametime.
These kids had seen a lot.
They didn't have a lot,purportedly, and some kids had
cash, hundreds of pounds in cash.

(09:58):
Others didn't have a penny.
Some of them were dressed inrags and some dressed like
today's the Kardashians ofBristol type of thing.
But they're all from theproject type of council house
areas, probably divorced parentsthat the mother was looking
after them, living on welfareand the father was wherever he

(10:20):
was not supporting probably.
And these kids, you know,needed, you know this was a
vacation for them, yeah, and Igot to listen.

Brook (10:28):
So this is your first big thing in rolls royce was kind
of pulling them on.
And how long were you in the ukbefore you moved over to the us
?
10 years, 10 years, yeah, andwhat did they recruit you for?
Over here, you're still inrolls royce, right?

Paul (10:39):
right.
So what happened was, um, I dida rolls hads had this thing
with a university and I wantedto get a master's in of all
things gas turbine technologybut it really was an MBA.
It was between Warwick andCranfield Institute of
Technology, so Cranfield's likethe MIT of the UK, and then
Warwick was more the sort ofbusiness side which was in

(11:01):
Coventry.
So anyway, I jumped onto thatprogram and it was really good
and after I finished that I wentokay, rolls has got to do
something with me.
I want to work, work abroad.
I've been working on thisprogram and it was great
technology but it was justtaking a long time to develop
and it was.
You know, I'm, I'm good, I wantto move on yeah.

(11:23):
so I said, okay, I'll give.
You know they invest a lot inme.
I'll give them a year, a yearto the day that they, if they,
don't want me, then I'll belooking.
And it was about nine months.
I went, oh, forget this,they're not going to do anything
with me.
And I started looking abroad.
So I got a job in had twomonths then to turn the house

(11:48):
that I had into something thatcould be rented out and then
give a month, you know.
So I had two, two month windowto do all that.
And then I had to give amonth's notice to roles.
I did my notice and my my newboss had just gone on, had been
on this course as well andunderstood and he said is this
what I think it is?
I said, yeah, I'm just oneabroad.
You know I've been tellingpeople that and he didn't
particularly know.
And later on that day someonecame up to me and said are you

(12:11):
upset with Rolls-Royce?
I said no, I just want to moveon and do something different.
Because Indianapolis, who I'dbeen working with on another
project well, the guy that I'dbeen working with was moving
back to Connecticut where hismother was from going to look
after her and when he left theysaid who could take over Paul
McCoy, perhaps?

(12:32):
Okay?
So they'd asked and mysupervisors had shielded me and
said nope, he's too busy, and Ihad my notice in.

Brook (12:39):
Dang, I'm going to lose them.
I should probably send themRight.

Paul (12:41):
So literally the next day I was on a flight here to lose
them, I should probably sendthem Right.
So literally the next day I wason a flight here to India.
Wow.
So I had to go home and pack mypassport wherever it was and
jump on a plane and I came here.
I got a couple of job offersthere were three jobs and I sort

(13:02):
of took one and came across forthat was November of 98.
I took a couple of, had acouple of months where I was
just coming across for meetingsand they raced through get my L1
visa as a specialist, and thenin 99, I started work over by
the airport.
Was it Executive Drive?
I think it was.

Brook (13:22):
It's interesting how, sometimes, when you have a dream
for yourself or a vision oflike hey, I wanted to be
international, you put it outthere and no one bites.
And sometimes you have to forceit, um, but even when you like
really put it out there, howsometimes the doors just open,
um, and so it's.
It's that concept of like,voice it, like, tell the world,
um, because you never know whatpotential pieces can happen as a

(13:46):
result of you.
And I put it out there, I wantthis.

Zach (13:48):
There is something to just the raw mathematics of like who
wants this more, or you knowwho wants it to be a certain way
more, and you know the tractionbehind that has a serious power
to it, being flexible in it,cause your picture was just
international, like you couldhave had a I want to live in
paris or amsterdam or someeuropean or maybe over in japan.

Brook (14:09):
But you're really flexible, of being like I have a
dream that's bigger, but I'malso able to morph it a little
bit.
Um, right, and I mean, ifnothing else, you got to meet me
over here, so it had to havebeen awesome, but I'm kidding,
um the pinnacle of my life.
Totally joking.
So what made you decide to stayand not continue your?

Paul (14:29):
international.
I did A lot of my work wasinternational.

Brook (14:34):
Okay, so I got to travel even more.

Paul (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, a lot too much perhaps.
Sort of you know, let's gothrough the journey.
I was working on a project itwas an international
collaboration with Taiwan, japanwho else was there?
There was another partnersomewhere and we were working on

(14:57):
that and I basically waslooking after this one low
emissions project that I had towork with the Japanese and
satisfy the criteria for them.
So it gave me that sort of, youknow, the ability to travel and
be in a place that you know asafe place.
I think, if I look at you know,financially Indianapolis is a
cheap place to live, affordable,it's very affordable.

Brook (15:21):
Cheap makes it sound not good, but affordable means it's
still nice, but it's not.

Zach (15:26):
It's evolving from cheap into affordable Right.
We all hope to be here when itmakes the switch into
unaffordable.

Paul (15:35):
Yeah, it's.
You know, in the UK I.
So I'll give you an idea offinancial.
I had 10 years of experienceand I led a team of probably a
dozen people in the UK.
I moved over here and I wasleading a team of probably a
similar number and my pay in theUK the exchange rate at
whatever it was then was thesame as a graduate coming out of

(15:57):
Purdue, a fresh graduate with aGPA of three and a half or
above.
That was the disparity betweenthe two countries and I'd see a
lot of friends move on and I waspretty loyal to roles and there
wasn't the remuneration comingthrough.
It was a union environment,even as an office worker, and

(16:18):
you had to join it.
There was no option.
It was a collective bargainingand you got whatever pay
increase you did a percentageand then the pot for bumping
anyone up was very low.
So financially I knew I wasfalling behind.
And that whole historical thingwas during World War II.
The owners of the factory saidlook, we can't afford to give
you a pay raise, so we want togive you a pay cut, but when the

(16:41):
war is over, and we'll keep itflat throughout the war, but
when the war is over, and we'llkeep it flat throughout the war,
but when the war's over we'llbring it back up to where it
should be and make you whole.
And apparently no memo waswritten at the start of the war
because it never happened.
So the disparity of, certainly,engineering bodies and people
were poorly paid, other areas,banking and what have you became
a little bit different.

(17:02):
And from the money you earn asan individual this country, I
don't know is it 25%, 30% ofyour revenue or your income,
your cash that you receive, netincome maybe puts your dwelling
or something In the UK it'sprobably 50% to 60%.
So it's subtly different.
And maybe that's just part andparcel of because you're lower

(17:24):
paid, you have to put more into,or you want to put more into a
nicer, nicer dwelling.
So financial, you know,recompense for what I was doing.
But the international piece,like, even when I was at college
, um, I had the opportunity tocome to boston, actually for um,
for a summer, um, but somepaperwork didn't get done by a,
by a, uh, a professor, and itdidn't happen.

(17:46):
So I was always wanting to cometo America.
It's just the opportunity.
I did apply to a couple of jobs, but the first opportunity was
in Zurich, not just outside, andthat's when I took, but then
didn't.

Brook (17:59):
So you were in Royalist Boys here in the US for how long
?

Paul (18:01):
17 years 17 years.

Brook (18:03):
And what made you choose to step away from the corporate
environment and into a?
Because right now you're acoach.

Paul (18:10):
Coach, consultant.

Brook (18:11):
Consultant, however you want to title it, but you
literally work with businessesto help improve their processes
or their people dynamic so thatthey can hit their goals that
they're looking for.
And so what made you go?
Okay, I want to step, and it'sjust you right, you don't have
per se people underneath you.
What made you decide, hey, allright, so I'm part of this giant
organization, worldwide,international.

(18:31):
I get to travel all over theplace.
I have seven people, ten people, whatever, underneath me.
I want to step away from thiscorporate which is a definite
different mentality into a likeI'm owning my own space and my
own thing.
What made you do that?

Paul (18:46):
Okay, so roll back to 2008 .
My wife and I both worked forroles and her job went away.
Well, 2007,.
Her job went away, so she waslooking for another role.
Her job was literally drawnback.
The whole of the organizationshe worked for went back to the
UK.
So she said do you want to goback to the UK?
I went no, I'm good it was.

(19:06):
You know, at that time I wasdoing business improvement, had
a small team and it was reallygood fun.
I thoroughly enjoyed it working.
You know, for a guy that wasfantastic.
And I went no, I'm good at themoment, so look at your other
options.
And so she was offered a roleto open up a plant in Virginia,
just south of Richmond, virginia, and a brand new site,

(19:27):
greenfield.
Rolls-royce had never not doneone for 100 years.
Literally their growth had beenthrough accumulating other
businesses.
I went that would be a prettycool thing to do.
So ultimately I said go for it,but obviously if you go, then
I'm going to need a role, and soI was the program executive
across there program.
Then I'm going to need a role,and so I was the program
executive across there programmanaging infrastructure site
development.
What have you?

(19:48):
So my role from a corporateperspective had just blown out
and it was one of the top 10economic development deals in
the US of 2007.
It was some $43 million.
I think that Virginia was.
Rolls had done this littlebeauty parade between lots of
different states.
They were going to build thisnew factory.
It's going to be businesscontinuity, so duplicate factory

(20:08):
with whatever, there'll be fiveplus factories at that time.
And, uh, they were going tojust test the water and the guy
running it wanted a thousandcontiguous acres and of land.
It was just a number he made up, but that's what he wanted.
And Virginia happened to have1,035 in Prince George, just

(20:28):
south of Richmond there's PrinceGeorge North as well and they
won it.
I think Georgia were in there,I think a few other places,
indiana had a little stab at itas well, and so long behold June
of 2008,.
We moved out there and we hadthis massive, massive role,
didn't know, you know, makingthese new facilities.

(20:49):
And then the kind of economiccrash happened and Lehman
Brothers went down in Novemberor September, october, and all
of a sudden all the factorieswent away.
We kept on doing what we did,but we were trying to find what
our first factory was Inparallel with that this economic
development contract was.
We had a couple of things thatwe were doing.
One was working with Universityof Virginia and developing this

(21:13):
guy, larry Richards,professional Larry Richards, who
got these teaching kits forschools.
I went oh, that's pretty cool.
So I got in touch with him andthen the local chamber of
commerce went and reached outand said hey, rolls-royce, would
you like to you know, we'd liketo know what's going on.
We'd like to you know, createan ad hoc board member for you
to join.
So my boss went here, you go.
So I joined and within a monthor two months they said would

(21:36):
you like to be on the board?
I went okay, and then, 10months later, would you like to
become the president?
Okay, so I, I became thepresident for um prince, uh,
prince george chamber ofcommerce, and it was a small
business, 120 000 business,couple of employees, and in my
first meeting with the executivedirector, becky, she said we

(21:57):
got two choices on your watch wecan close it or we can grow it.
I went, we got one choice,really, and that's what we did,
yeah.
So so she she was a little bitdowntrodden, I would say and I
said okay, what are we going todo?
How can we do this?
We changed the board, we gotstructure in place, we got the
mission vision, we got it sortedout, we got people working on

(22:21):
the thing and ballooned thewhole organization to.
You know, massive revenueincreases, numbers I keep on
forgetting, but you know it wasa great thing, but my job went
away just towards the end of mytenure so I went.
Okay, I'm good with that.
So I was looking for anotherrole, ultimately moved back to
Indianapolis because my wife'smother was ailing and we can't

(22:45):
go anywhere else other than wehad to come back to Indy,
because my wife's mother wasailing and we can't go anywhere
else other than we had to comeback to Indy.
We could have gone to Savannah,georgia.
Could have gone up to Duluth,although I'd have been by myself
because my wife didn't want togo there.
But we looked at differentoptions.
I said, look, the easiest thingfor your sanity is being back
to help with your mother'sissues and stuff.

(23:05):
So we moved back and I movedback into a role.
That was just it was.

Brook (23:10):
You didn't like it Nah.

Paul (23:12):
It was, yeah, working with people remotely.
I was remote in this role, butthe people were not that great.
There was a lot of animosity,the person who I succeeded who
was pushed out of the role.
There was still animosity withthe role itself as opposed to
anything else, and then theysort of took it out on me and I
went I don't like this and rolesat this point was going through

(23:32):
restructuring from the top down.
They got a new CEO and theysaid you're too top heavy,
you've got to consolidateorganizations.
So there's a chopping from thetop.
And around the same time, whenwe moved back, my wife was just
tired of every year having tochop 10% of people within you
know she'd moved back and withinHR and she said I don't want to

(23:54):
do this.
So she looked.
I said okay, you go and findanother role On a year.
To the day that you find thisrole and have been there for a
year, I'm going to start lookingStability of income and stuff
like that.

Brook (24:04):
So she did that Engineer Times it all out.

Paul (24:08):
Engineered, so I went okay .
So I started looking and it wasa lot of the roles were.
You know I got offered rolesthat were fly out on Monday and
usually in North America.
You know it's Canada, maybesome in Mexico, that had plants
and you'd be running plants andjust, and I got a seven-year-old
daughter at the time and it wasjust eh no, this isn't going to
work.
So I said what can I do?

(24:29):
That I can stay put?
And I sort of got him, got totalk to someone through LinkedIn
that basically sold franchises.
They said, you know, and I,well, my wife said, why don't?

Zach (24:41):
you run a.

Paul (24:42):
Starbucks you know, they're franchises, aren't they?
You'd be good at that, youcould do that in your sleep,
type of thing, and I went, okay.
That got me thinking and it wassort of okay, what can I do
that I can stay and control myenvironment in Indy, you know my
hours, or whatever they are butbe there for my daughter, be
there, you know, for whatevershe needs and and, uh, you know,

(25:02):
be a stable position for her.
She really struggled movingfrom virginia to here and I also
made the statement, um, thatwhilst you're at high school,
you will not, we will not, move,you will stay put, we're not
gonna.
I'm not gonna do that to youagain, which I have, as of
sunday she graduated, I've done.
Um, so I, I looked at differentthings and, uh, you know, I

(25:23):
started talking to differentpeople and there's one book it's
a really cheesy book by Ron Fry, I think it is, I forgot the
name of it, but it got youlooking into your past and one
of the questions was what didyou really enjoy in the last few
years, you know, 10 years, 20years what have you really
enjoyed that?
You thought I could do this andI go back to the Chamber of

(25:44):
Commerce.
It was my first turnaroundbusiness.
Look at it.
And Becky was just a great lady, very intelligent lady, but she
was just downtrodden because ofsituations and what have you,
and she was probably ready tosort of jack it in, using a
British phrase.
But stop, and I brought energyback to her and said, okay,
let's do something different.
And I empowered her.

(26:04):
And that's my ethos in life isjust to help people look after
themselves and empower them.
And that's what we did and Iwent.
That was really fun.
So what can I do?
And this guy that I got involvedin he said how about coaching?
I went, tell me more.
And you know, I look at my past.
I think I've done coaching allmy life.

(26:25):
You know, starting with roles.
Whenever I you know, even ayear in graduate trainees that
came in, I'd look after thembecause I knew that no one else
would.
I knew how I was treated.
I went to get the most out ofthem.
You've got to do somethingdifferent.
And then I was on a project andthere was a guy that was
probably the worst, probably thebest technical drafter of, but

(26:46):
the worst attitude, and I saidyou need to do something
different.
He said, yeah, I want to earnsome money.
I said, well, contracting, gocontracting, drafting.
He says, yeah, I'll do that.
I said, but first you have toget your mind right and you've
got to come into work and workyour socks off and you've got to
prove that you can do that toyourself and to other people,
that you can.
You know, come in and beeffective from day one, because

(27:06):
if you come in like you are now,you're kicked out.
That week you're going to bekicked out.
They're not going to accept you, okay.
So what do we need to do?
So I got this kid working hissocks off and, uh, getting
making changes.
I went gosh, this is fun, youknow, make making a change to
someone.
And uh, he left roles and madea ton of money doing contracting
in different parts of the worldand I love for you that the.

Brook (27:30):
It's very interesting because I had similar thing
where you have the person whoknows you the best and you're
going through this like hey,maybe not knows you the best,
but knows you significantly.
You're going through this, saywhat should I do?
Like I need to change, I justdon't, and they throw out this
random idea that pushes you downa space.
And so there is the listeningto random thoughts people have
and then having a book orsomething that says sit down and

(27:52):
reflect on something, and thatjust component of like what am I
strong in, what do I love?
What gives me energy, andstepping into that side of
things and going hey, but it'svery interesting that I also
went through a whole part ofreading books and reflecting.
And having someone else speakinto you and just taking the

(28:13):
time to slow down and thinkthrough that for yourself
empowers you to go okay.
Now I want to jump intosomething else in the midst of
that, and almost you inspiredyourself.
As you're like, I can inspireother people.
This is a lot of fun.
I can inspire myself somewherein there too.

Paul (28:31):
Yeah, I, the thing I love and this is with coaching kids
for rugby or whatever when theyget it, they go.
Oh, I see what you mean.
Now you know you can tell it tothem 10 times that in different
modes and operations, buteventually you know when they,
when they get it, they go.
This is really cool.

Zach (28:43):
I think that's a rewarding moment when you realize that
you can teach people thingswithout that light bulb going
off in the moment, whether it'ssomebody that disagrees and
you're having an emotionalconversation, or whatever.
It's rewarding when you realizeor can perceive that your
impact has been made, when it's,you know, fractional or, you

(29:05):
know, incremental in terms ofactually shifting somebody's
behavior or perception.

Brook (29:10):
So what were you?
You jump, you choose, say I'mgoing to be this coach.
Were you scared?

Paul (29:15):
Um, I have a very high tolerance to pain and probably
um a stupidity towards beingscared.
I wasn't.
I was apprehensive at points.
There were certain things thatpublic speaking was just this
good, oh, you know, kill me now,type of thing, Don't, don't put
me in front of.
But you overcome that, you get.

Brook (29:35):
How did you overcome that ?

Paul (29:37):
Repeatedly doing stuff that was uncomfortable.
It's it truly.
You know, if you you've got togo through that hurt of and not
caring, you know, recognizingthat you know more than anyone
else out there and and it'sreally slowing down because, you
know, sort of my mode was Iwant to tell them everything

(29:58):
I've got and I'll trip over andmake a mistake and go, oh, I've
got to go back.
Nowadays it's sort of you knowwhat you want to know and you
know, and asking questions andthen listening.
You know the the big piece islistening to understand, not
listening to respond.
I think too many people listento respond one up, you know, and
if you're drinking with yourfriends and you know it's, you

(30:21):
know it's one up and ship andit's just you know crazy guy
thing or family thing orwhatever.
But when it's one-upmanship andit's just you know crazy guy
thing or family thing orwhatever, but when it's in
businesses, you've got to listen, to understand and be more
inquisitive, find out what theproblem is, and that works for
family as well.

Brook (30:35):
Did it also help you that you were methodical in your
engineering of like?
My wife will have a stable joband now I can do this, so the
financial security was in placefor you.
So you're like I could flounderand make nothing for a year and
test this out and, if we hateit, go somewhere else.
Did that play at all into yourlike?
Can't create it a little?

Paul (30:52):
I.
I got multiple buckets.
I could financially.
I got severance for a year orthereabouts.

Brook (30:57):
So that's nice, that makes things yeah, that was easy
um I've always find it I'mimpressed by those people who
don't have another half thatthey're leaning on for finances
and they jump out and they sayI'm going to start this.
The bravery to do that is veryimpressive.

Zach (31:15):
And I commend people who do.
That's interesting that you saythat, cause I feel like I see
things from the other side, notnecessarily always, but just the
perception that once you haveresponsibilities and you've got
children, or you have asignificant other, or these
other people and these otherdogs, whatever it is that are
dependent on you.

Paul (31:36):
No, I mean really your pets they got to eat right.

Zach (31:39):
So those kinds of things that makes it almost harder
because and maybe it's apersonality- type thing, Because
for me it's like you know, it'seasy for me to live off.

Paul (31:49):
Chef Boyardee, and you know, lentil stew.

Zach (31:52):
Yeah right, peanut butter jelly sandwiches, but you know,
subjecting other people that youlove to those kinds of things
are an interesting kind ofjuxtaposition.

Brook (32:02):
I don't know if I thought about it from that perspective,
because for me it was very muchof a like okay, the end of the
day I won't be homeless, like Ihave a few backup things and
I'll be fine, and at the end ofthe day I can go back to my
other you.
I never thought of the factthat for some people.
They need to not have theburden of I'm taking care of
kids and family and all of thatpiece of it, so everybody's

(32:32):
journey is a little different.

Zach (32:33):
It's all different, yeah, somewhere in there.
So, paul, I feel like you havemany times mentioned the fact
that imposter syndrome is aninevitable part of the business
owner's journey is an inevitablepart of the business owner's
journey, and yet I sense zeroimposter syndrome from you
personally, so I'm curious whereyou felt that.

(32:54):
Oh, absolutely If anywhere.

Paul (32:57):
I've had it, I think, probably right away through
school.
Even grades you get and you go.
I know I made some moremistakes than that, but they
gave me an.
A and it's sort of why am Ibeing treated differently?
Obviously, I sort of think alower, more sort of modest
thought pattern, as opposed tothe other way, where you're

(33:19):
completely in charge of you,know I'm brilliant, I'm great
and you're not.
So I've always put that modestyin place.
But I think every time you takeon something new, until you get
the, until I get my personalvalidation and it's not other
people saying you did a greatjob, because that doesn't
necessarily fly, becausesometimes I don't, I know I

(33:39):
don't have, I haven't done agreat job, it's my knowledge and
my ability to do something andsay, okay, I think I've got it
now, I think I've got, you know,a mastery or a level of
learning that I can, I can saythis is good in, you know, this
is a good foundation and how how?

Zach (33:55):
because I know just from hearing you talk that you're
kind of working from theopposite side of things.
How, when is enough enough inthat setting?

Paul (34:07):
I.
I don't think there's ever apoint that you get to.
I think you've always got tokeep learning, you know, going
back to why I wanted to leaveroles, I wasn't learning enough,
I'd stagnated and I could havebeen very well paid for a long
time, but I didn't want to diementally and that's where I was,
you know, I wasn't learning andgrowing and I needed that for
my own psyche.
So I will keep on looking atstuff and keep on rehashing and

(34:29):
sometimes by doing that you'vegot two component pieces that
then go.
Oh, that's why they're likethat and they mesh and you go.
Why didn't I know that before?
Because it never clicks.

Zach (34:39):
That was kind of my next question.
Do you find yourself going backto previous work with that kind
of mentality of ever improvingand, you know, have like not a
regret, I guess, but you know,do you kind of fixate on things
that could have been done betterin those spaces from a
mentality standpoint, does thatstress you out or it doesn't?

Paul (34:58):
stress me out more.
You know I've learned a littlebit more and I go back to
something and I go okay, Ididn't understand it then as
well as I do now.
So now applying it would besubtly different and I can apply
it and take it a little bitfurther, maybe take it in a
better direction.
Um, you know the the businessimprovement meant.
You know, when I did that thatrole, I've applied that through
everything, everything.

(35:18):
You know it's one of that wasprobably the most impactful
roles I've ever taken on, whereyou, you know it's all six sigma
, black belt, green belt, allthat stuff.
And you know, in a manufacturing, maybe paperwork system wise,
right the way through to makingstuff wise, you improve it and
then you walk away without theknowledge of looking at it and
it will demise over time.
A system isn't going to beunless you keep an eye on it.

(35:42):
That's why KPIs are.
You know, key performanceindicators are very important to
keep the idea eye on it.
That's why KPIs key performanceindicators are very important
to keep the eye on it so thatyou can see when it's starting
to drop.
And that's my mentally.
For me it's sort of okay.
What's causing that problem toor how can I change the
direction of this to improve it?
So it's always in my mind.

Brook (36:03):
So what would you say are the best things you've learned
being your own business owner?
At this point in time, you justlist one or two, whatever you
want.

Paul (36:13):
I think, uh, from the coaching pieces, keep your
pipeline full.
You never stop selling yourself, you never stop marketing, you
never stop.
You know when you, when youthink you've got a bucket full
of clients is the worst time tostop doing anything, because
things will always change.

Brook (36:32):
I read something somewhere where they talked
about everyone is selling.
We get scared of the termselling, so we're not going to
go into business.
We're not going to go throughthat because we don't want to be
salesmen, used car salesmen badrap that they have.
But realizing that ever sincemy child, since he was born, has
been selling getting what hewants, and it's an exhausting

(36:52):
negotiation at times but thenother, but he's, he's learning
the art of selling and learningthe art and I mean you did it to
start with, when you're like,hey, I want to be international,
like kind of had to learn theart of selling was being a
little bit of a hardball, like Ileaving sorry, and that got you
what you wanted in the midst ofit and that even being an
employee is selling an idea toyour employer, that you're part

(37:13):
of the team and so not beingscared that being a scare point
of having a business, becauseevery you are selling is life
like you are always doing that,and so, um, and yet we forget
that too.
Yet when you're running abusiness, it all could be
falling apart.
You could have massive issuesthat are going on, but while
those massive issues are goingon, you have to still be selling
.
You still have.

(37:33):
I'm working on a project forsomeone you probably feel this
and it's taking five days worthof focus and you've got no
marketing done and you're like,dang it, I don't have it.
Now that job's done, and nowwhat do I do?
Now I have to wait and mark it.
It'll take me months to findanother person until you get
yourself into that balance oflike work, market, work market,
and it's exhausting at somelevel and yet, in my personal

(37:53):
opinion, kind of fun sometimestoo, to not only have one
headset that you're in sototally resonate with you.

Zach (38:11):
Like yeah, biggest thing learned is you have to keep your
pipeline.
Yeah, it's interesting hearingyou talk about that in
particular too, because it'sjust so clearly like a machine
in your mind and you put abefore b before c and just the
way that you know.
I think like a lot of times, um, I think business owners are
making these decisions in realtime and not really tracking
them out time wise.
We just have this kind ofnebulous to-do list of you know
the things that need to get done, but you, from day one, have

(38:32):
been taking those tasks andactually allocating okay, this
is, you know, when this needs tohappen.
This is when we launch thisphase, like, this is when this
needs to be completed.
Yeah, I follow rules.
That's incredible.

Paul (38:40):
There's some rule breakers in this group.

Brook (38:43):
Rules are not hard to pass, they're guidelines.

Zach (38:47):
You get both sides of the rules line on this podcast.

Brook (38:50):
Sometimes rules are not necessary.
Sometimes they are.
We should stop when the othercar's coming at the stop sign.
But you know.

Zach (38:57):
That is the that's you know.
That's the thing, though that'spart of the formula is how much
you know prep do you need,because some business owners you
know have to do that run andgun kind of you know scenario to
feel on top of it and like theyknow what's going on in that
moment.
But that's really interesting.

Brook (39:14):
What's your next steps?
You started a coaching program.
You have your business.

Paul (39:18):
Where do you want to take it?
Um, I want to pursue the sortof get groups of masterminds.
That was one of the big thingsI was trying to get moving is
develop masterminds where peoplecome in and we have masterminds
, a system that allows people tomeet peers, learn, educate

(39:39):
themselves and get inspired.
Yeah, that's one piece.
The other piece is the mentalperformance aspect.
I think that is huge.
The other piece is the mentalperformance aspect.
I think that is huge.
Pulling that from the sportingworld and moving it into the
business world.
And, uh, you know, you see thefigure skaters, you see the
skiers.
They'll stand there, closetheir eyes and they're
visualizing their path, theirroute, whatever.

(40:01):
Um, I think you can do the samein business.
Um, the visual piece,visualizing the journey.
It doesn't have to be astraight line, it will always be
a rocky up and down, but reallygetting to employ that, that is
an aspect.
I think I've got a particularstrength honed from sports rugby
, golf, whatever but also in thebusiness world you have to have

(40:25):
that mental strength.
Uh, dealing with high schoolkids who will want to press
every button they can it doesn'tmatter if they're high school
kids or four-year-olds.

Brook (40:33):
They press every button.
You have.

Paul (40:34):
I think three-year-olds are better at it.

Brook (40:37):
Truthfully, you know, it's because you you cave a lot
quicker so, um, we are going todo like a few random questions
to you yeah, that you have toanswer in 10 words or less.
Okay, first reaction ofsomething um, you're at a
networking event.
What drink are you having yourhand usually?

Paul (40:59):
water ah very boring.

Brook (41:01):
What drink do you want in your hand?
Um, probably a beer oh, okay,see, okay See, learned something
.

Paul (41:06):
You didn't put a timeline.
I know Well, that's part of it.

Brook (41:12):
Like it's a networking event, a morning coffee or like
an evening thing.
So that kind of tells me whattype of networking events do you
kind of go to from that side?
All right, so you envision acolor as a business owner.

Paul (41:27):
Like if you see a business owner?

Brook (41:28):
what is the color you think of when you think business
owner?
My favorite color is blue.
I think blue too, and I that'skind of I don't know, I don't
know why it's just interesting.
People talk about colors.
You go to these meditativethings.
You're like close your eyes andlike envision a color and what
you know.
What does that mean?
And I have no idea.

Zach (41:39):
See, I think I see red, but I have a different
relationship with red than Ithink most people do.
I think that's's like fire.
Yeah, I think I've like causewe've done like content and
stuff that I put red on andyou're like Ooh, aggressive,
angry.
I'm like no assertive, likeconfident, yeah, you know,
consistent.
So definitely think it's a toeach their own kind of thing,

(41:59):
but that's interestingPerspective.

Brook (42:01):
Yes, yes, how late is fashionably late.

Paul (42:05):
Half an hour.
Half an hour, okay.

Zach (42:10):
All right, mine is however long it takes me to get there,
she's got a different answereach day.

Brook (42:14):
Yeah, it depends on the day.
If I'm on time five minutesearly, there is no such thing.

Paul (42:21):
If it's going to the airport, it's what time we're
leaving, not what time theflight's taking.
Exactly I put my comfort zone.
I don't want to be runningthrough an airport like I've
done before.
Yeah, fashionably late to anairplane is not on the airplane.

Brook (42:34):
So favorite person to follow Podcast, tiktok,
instagram, facebook, entitything Favorite follow that you
do.

Paul (42:47):
The one I listen to from a mental performance is Brian
Cain.

Brook (42:52):
He does the like sports mental side of things, and so
I've talked about him a coupleof times.
I have not yet found him.

Zach (42:59):
Right, what's yours, brooke?
I don't think we got that lasttime.
We should probably just dothese for you and then I can
patch them into the otherepisode, because I don't think
we had them last time.

Brook (43:05):
Um, we should probably just do these for you, and then
I can patch them into the otherepisode because, I don't think
we had them last time.
Um.
So if I had to answer thatright now, I would tell you it's
the bucket list family.
Uh, I, I enjoy them a lotbecause they encourage travel
and community and family andlife in a manner that is
inspiring, and I'm sure it's notas uh, not that it's easy for

(43:26):
them, but you put out there allthe nice parts of it.
But I like how they engage inlife and I find myself inspired
a lot from that aspect of things.
And so, from a business mindset, I don't have any one person,
it's just kind of who I'm in themood for.
So I usually listen to randomaudio books on different things.

Paul (43:45):
My favorite business one is the Road.
Less Stupid.

Brook (43:50):
Keith Cunningham does make you think, and I just like
the title the Road Less Stupid,stop being stupid.

Paul (43:57):
Well, I think he's regurgitated the.
You know I'm trying to think ofNapoleon Hill when he did that
100 years ago or wherever it was.
This is a refreshed, newerversion of Napoleon Hill when he
did that a hundred years ago orwherever it was.
This is a refreshed, newerversion of Napoleon Hill's.

Brook (44:10):
Napoleon Hill's something about thinking, thinking grow
rich thinking, grow rich.
That's what it was, which Itried to listen to, that once.
He wrote it a hundred years agoand it sounds like a hundred
years ago and I couldn't quiteget through it.
But that might mean my focuslevel is poor.

Paul (44:22):
But it's good but the concept is very concepts
fantastic, fantastic, yeah, butI think keith has just taken it
and refreshed it and renewed itso, and sometimes and he's funny
, he's he does it.

Brook (44:35):
He kind of laughs somewhere in there was that all
the those?

Zach (44:38):
are the questions um oh, my last one was uh biggest pet
peeve people judging others.

Paul (44:46):
that's hot off the press.
It's not understanding.
I think that's a huge part ofthe disparity in this world is
people not understanding othersand not taking the time to
understand.
You know, even incrediblyeducated people that I know have
made rash decisions that arecompletely and factually wrong

(45:08):
and they just haven't botheredto understand, and I think
that's society at the moment.

Zach (45:13):
I think, yeah, I think societally we are very
interested in putting things intheir proper category and
deciding whether things are oneway or another, and I think we
ignore the fact that thingsoften kind of sit in that
quantum state, particularly whenyou're talking about

(45:34):
interpersonal things of you know, everybody's having their
experience of the moment.
So you have, you know, whatevervalidity is tied to the fact
that you're there in that moment.
But everybody has their ownversion of that.
So the more we kind of respectthat and avoid those concrete
you know you were right, youwere wrong.
You know those kinds of things,Everyone can be right.

(45:54):
It's just a differentperspective.
Yeah, I mean even that simple,the way you know.
You phrased that there, likeit's.
Either you can attacksomebody's identity and say you
are a this or you, you know youare wrong, you are these things.
Or you can focus on the ideaand say what you said is xyz or
what you think is, you know, Ithink, is xyz.
That's a very different kind ofuh level that you're engaging

(46:15):
with somebody as well.

Brook (46:17):
Yeah, okay, last question what's your personal motto?

Paul (46:21):
personal motto Personal motto Do good.

Brook (46:26):
I like it.
It's very simple Two words, noteven ten.

Zach (46:33):
Do good.
I thought after our lastconversation it was going to be
do what you say, do what you sayyou're going to do.

Paul (46:38):
That's huge.
That's a huge piece fromhistory and from having had
things promised to me that havenever been delivered family and
wherever to?
I'm not going to be like that.
If you ask my daughter onequestion, have I delivered
90.9.9% of things I said I wasgoing to do?

(47:00):
She'd say yeah, no question.

Brook (47:04):
See, now I could get into the philosophical thing of what
happens when you promisesomething that wasn't good and
now your later time life goesout to play.
So now I'm conflicting your twomottos.
Well, one of them wasn't yourmotto, it was inferred upon you,
but the like okay.
So is there a space and timewhere you can step away from a

(47:25):
promise or something out there?
And and I'm not sure that thereis, and that's not the platform
for it.
I'm sorry, I totally went intoit, that's right um, but I think
truth is time dependent, thatis truth.

Paul (47:36):
Is time dependent, your perception of something
happening you have all thisinformation and then all of a
sudden, someone comes up withnew stuff.
Your truth is what you have andyour moral code and your values
all rolled into one.
And this is what your truth is.
And then someone comes in withsomething new and it's sort of
whoa, this is more relevant andmaybe I was wrong there.

Brook (47:57):
And life happens.
You get caught in trauma, yeah,and things that are not mean,
but there's a car accident,there's health issues, like
trauma comes into play and itchanges.
It changes perspective changesthe truth for you in a moment,
and so, um, yeah, you know sorryyou get totally in some
philosophical touch points there.
Some people would say truth istruth and you can't change it.
What is is is but um I.

(48:21):
And then others would say whatwas the impact?

Zach (48:23):
Yeah, you know, truth is discretionary and so it's that's
truth is an interesting topic,to be honest.
That's a good question If youfumble along and everything that
you do is a mistake, with apositive impact.

Brook (48:30):
Is it still good?
I did good, I do good.

Paul (48:33):
I think so You've made 1% improvement in something in
someone's life.
Why not?
And you didn't do 100%destruction in someone else's
Right, you do more good thanharm and you're going to do
stuff that's negative andhopefully you do more stuff
that's positive.

Brook (48:48):
Which is truthful for a business owner and owner of any
sort of type of thing of I'mgoing to mess up.
I just need to accept it andcan, in the midst of the mess, I
step into good to things thatare right, things that improve
things, and just know that it'sa steady, slow improvement.
It's not an overnight boom.
Here I am.
I make no mistakes.

(49:08):
Part of that improvement is alittle messy.

Zach (49:11):
And that's another good question for both of you From
the business owner perspectiveis what is your responsibility
when a promise has not been kept?
Let's say, a promise has notbeen kept due to something that
is out of your control or anunforeseen circumstance.
What, then, is yourresponsibility?

Paul (49:28):
I think you've got to come clean.
You've got to come clean andexplain a situation, not be the
victim but say this happened, Ididn't do something, I will make
it right.

Brook (49:38):
Communication is probably a very big thing.
So this is not the same thing,but this is a story.
We went to a restaurant thispast week and it had an outdoor
seating space, but it was inthis space that could be hot
gold and it had greenhouseeffect in there.
It was really hot, a fancylittle place, and they brought
out the menu and I didn't likeany of the stuff on there and

(49:59):
they served this littlecomplimentary champagne to start
with.
So we got the champagne.
The waitress came out and waslike hey, give us a second.
And I'm looking at my otherhalf and I'm going.
I don't want to be here.
I don't know why the heck Ichose this place.
We had to put reservations in.
I'm hot, it's uncomfortable,the food doesn't look good and
she's like all right, I'm goingto go to the bathroom and I'll

(50:20):
sneak out and you do whateverthe heck you need to do and I'm
like no, like, I'm going to talkto the waitress.
Like I made, I sat down at ameal and I made a reservation
and I kind of made a promisethat I was going to engage with
this restaurant and I don't wantto be here.
And so I literally looked atthe waitress and I was like, so
I'm really sorry.
It's really hot and stuffy inhere, and none of this food is
calling to me at all, and so I'mreally I'm going to be a jerk,

(50:42):
I'm going to probably leave.
Can we pay for this champagne?
She's like no, it'scomplimentary, you can go.
And she's like thank you fortelling me versus just leaving,
and so many people would justleave.
Then I threw my other halfunder the bus because she was
still there and I was like shewanted to just leave.
She was not happy with me, butit still is that concept of like

(51:04):
, it's all about thecommunication, the you know, hey
, to me I can't, I can no longerdo this and here's why I no
longer can do this.
I know I said this, I'm sorry.
I know that as a result of mysorry, you may have to make a
different decision that I mightnot like because you want that
space.
So if I was back in Paul's timeperiod and he goes, I want to
go to an international thing andI go, I can't meet that.

(51:26):
I know.
I told you I could maybe moveyou to there, but I know, and I
have to accept, that he might go, I'm going to go take this
other job, like.
So I think it's.
It's the honest, just likeyou're saying, the honest,
transparent conversation versusthe ignoring of the conversation
.
And I have done both.
Um, as a business owner ofwhere I'm just like I don't have
the energy, I'm just not goingto have it, we're just going to
pretend it doesn't exist.
And I've had times where I'mvery transparent.

Zach (51:47):
And it's funny too, because it seems like there's
you know it's kind of a longform, you know chemical reaction
that's happening here withbusiness people and salespeople
too, of like that aversereaction constantly.
And you know I don't want toeat here.
Why don't you want to eat here?
Like those kinds.

(52:14):
You know we don't let peoplehave autonomy in those spaces
and we're so exhausted by thatconstant barrage of you know,
why aren't you engaging with myproduct?
What's wrong with you?

Paul (52:25):
So, going down from a business perspective, the
Patrick Lencioni, the CEO, hasto make a decision and all their
workers give them inputs, but alot of them are diametrically
opposite.
They can't all be incorporated.
So the way to and I've espousedthis to quite a few clients and
they've thanked me, I stole itfrom Patrick and it's okay stand

(52:48):
in front of all your people andsay I've taken all this input
and I thank you for all that.
With other information I havethat I can't divulge I'm going
to take the business in thisdirection.
If, at some point in the future, I don't think it's going the
direction, or we don't thinkit's going the direction it
should be, then let's revisitthese things.

(53:12):
But what I need from each one ofyou is to get behind this idea.
So, on your personal commitment.
So, zach, are you committed tobeing behind this initiative so
that we can see whether it worksor not?
I expect you to say yes, and ifyou don't say yes, then we have
a little chat and we'll haveyou and Brooke.
I want you to get behind this.

Brook (53:23):
We're leaving the restaurant.

Paul (53:26):
Right.
But if you don't do this andI've seen this before, where the
CEO says we're going to do thisand everyone's going my idea is
brilliant.
Why is it not?
And you know?
And then two people on the sidesay just watch this burn, it's
never going to fly anywhere.
And they never get behind it orthey scupper it and that's why
you've got to go around thattactic, that piece of like.

Brook (53:47):
I mean I felt it where I've had employees feel the arm
crossed like you're going tofail.

Zach (53:54):
Right, there's no way we're putting this in place,
kind of.

Brook (53:56):
Well, they're just like.
I'm just going to sit back andwatch because I don't like
anything you do.
I don't like how you do it,like all of these components of
it and getting them on board, Idon't.
That is probably a hard thingfor me as a leader.
Just to be frank of, like, ifyou just are sitting there with
your arms crossed, I justdistance myself from you, like
okay, like I, I don't need this,like I, there's so much stuff

(54:16):
that needs to happen and that'snot always the best.
It's probably not.
The best thing is to not sitdown and go.
Okay, what, what is blockingyou?
You?
And yet I still eventually doget into those conversations
because you have to.
But oftentimes, if you're so inthat spot, I kind of have to
say you're not on the right bus.
I need you to move on, becauseI can't have you sitting in the
back corner with your armscrossed going, it's going to

(54:39):
burn.
I kind of told you so.
And even if they're notthinking, if I had to have that
conversation with them, I'm like, even if they're not thinking,
if I had to have thatconversation with them, like, oh
, I never thought like that,everything in you is portraying
this.
It is hard to navigate that asa business owner to be willing
to sit down and vulnerably sayyou don't like my ideas and
where I'm going and I'm notgoing to do what you want to do.

(55:00):
Can I get you to get on boardthat process?
That sale internal sales to myown staff of ideas is a harder
sell for me than selling myservices to someone else.

Zach (55:14):
You also have to understand structure.
In that case too, it's like youknow.
There are businesses out therewhere it makes sense.
There's very little kind ofgateway or gatekeeping or very
little entryway into being partof things, because the structure
is such that you know, tasksthat can be allotted to you are
simple no harm, no foul kind ofthings and they expect a bunch
of people to fall off and thepeople that make it to make it
kind of a thing.
But with a management stylelike yours and a structure like

(55:36):
yours, there almost needs to bea very rigorous kind of
gatekeeping process at thebeginning of things, because
once people are on the team,they're on the team and they're
running free and you know youbasically are saying I need this
to happen in this amount oftime and I, you know, trust you
to know how that, you know,plays out from a step to step
kind of way.
So you know that's a challenge,that's a product of um.

(55:58):
You know the kind ofenvironment you want to keep
being one that probably needs tobe selective about the people
that are sitting inside.

Brook (56:05):
I mean they talk about that.
Hiring the wrong person canusually cost a business.
It depends on the type ofbusiness, but about a hundred
thousand dollars plus to hirethe wrong person.

Paul (56:15):
Two to 10 times the salary .

Brook (56:17):
And so that's it.
That's costly.
It really is, and so it doesn'tmatter how much money you're
making or little money.
And yet I'm also a proponent ofyou.
Sometimes just try stuff.
You make mistakes, you keepmoving.

Paul (56:30):
You spend $100,000.

Brook (56:32):
You try again.
You eventually find the personyou have the right relationship
with.

Zach (56:35):
When it comes to that, I hear that statistic a lot about
how expensive it is to hire thewrong person.
What is hiring the wrong personlook like Like if you have
somebody that is around and doestheir job for 18?

Brook (56:48):
months.

Zach (56:49):
They burn customer relationships.

Brook (56:50):
So I hired the wrong person.
I let them run free with a jobwith a client.
I get back in and I'm like, ohmy God, everything you did was
wrong.
Now I paid for your time.
Now I have to pay for all ofthe time to fix what you did and
, by the way, I lost that client.
So now I've lost future revenuethat's associated with it
because I couldn't fix thedamage that they did.

(57:10):
So there's just paying for.
Okay, I paid for you to beemployed for me for three months
.
Great, there's that lost money.
They did nothing during thattime period, or whatever that it
is that I have, but it's thedamage they do in the meantime.
Plus, if I had a recruiter feethat came in to get that person,
I have that cost out the window.
I have to do it again.

Paul (57:27):
That's probably 30%.

Brook (57:28):
Yeah, 20 to 30, depending on the.

Zach (57:30):
I was just curious if there was a certain span of time
that somebody needed to stickaround, or what the KPIs are on
this was a good hire, or atleast we broke even on this hire
.
You know what I mean.

Brook (57:43):
I'm usually letting go my bad hires.
My bad bad ones are within asix month time period of when I
hired them that I'm letting themgo and those are the usually
the ones that cost me.
For me, maybe other people,it's a lot longer of a thing.
If it's longer than that, it'snot a bad hire, as much as it
may be something that it wentsour for a reason or another.
Like we started to disalign onstuff and usually I'm not burned
as in like I have lost money,lost relationships.

(58:06):
It's just we've gone twoseparate ways.
The bad hire is within asix-month time frame and it
usually is pretty dang costly.

Paul (58:14):
And it could be a cultural thing where the person comes in
and they do things that arejust anti Inflammatory.
You've got a harm in youroffice, you bring someone in and
they're doing stuff and it'snot caught quick enough by
whoever the owner is or themanager, and it manifests itself
and it starts affecting theother people.
So if you start at 9 o'clockand they're coming in at 10 past

(58:35):
9 and then eventually 10o'clock, that's really late If
there's an agreement that theycome in at a particular time
your customers are calling andthere's no one there.

Brook (58:47):
That's not good.
It doesn't know what you'reasking for Very good, all right.
It's a good conversation guys.

Paul (58:53):
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for having me See ya,thank you Bye.