March 10, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of The Paid Leave Podcast, we speak with Kandi Pickard, the CEO of the National Down Syndrome Society (NDSS). Down Syndrome Awareness Week is celebrated across the world from March 15 to March 21 every year. The purpose of the week is to create awareness about individuals with Down syndrome and the difficulties they might face in their lives. About 5,000 babies are born every year in the USA with Down syndrome. Due to advances in medical technology, individuals with Down syndrome are living longer than ever before. With 80 percent living past 60 years old. In March it is also National Developmental Disabilities Awareness month.
Kandi Pickard provides vision and leadership, working collaboratively with individuals and organizations like CT Laid Leave, to support the entire Down syndrome community. Kandi’s involvement in the Down syndrome community first started as a local volunteer and advocate after her youngest son, Mason was born with Down syndrome. Ten years later, she leads NDSS with a focus on building community and keeping people with Down syndrome at the center of everything the organization does. Kandi says that CT Paid Leave is a great resource for caregivers, and for those with chronic health conditions. She says the flexibility to take time and be allowed varying lengths of leave aligns with the mission of the NDSS.
To get in Touch with NDSS please go to their website: National Down Syndrome Society (NDSS)
For questions or to apply for benefits please go to our website: CT Paid Leave
https://ctpaidleave.org/s/?language=en_US
https://www.facebook.com/CTPaidLeave
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https://twitter.com/CTPaidLeave
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nancy Barrow (00:01):
Hello Connecticut, and welcome to The Paid Leave
Podcast. The title basicallysays it all. I'm Nancy Barrow,
and I will be delving into thisnew state program and how it can
help you and your family. Thispodcast will give you
information you should knowabout Connecticut Paid Leave and
maybe just a little bit more.
Connecticut Paid Leave bringspeace of mind to your home,
(00:22):
family and workplace. Welcome toThe Paid Leave Podcast.
Down Syndrome Awareness Week iscelebrated across the globe from
March 15 to march 21 every year,and the purpose of the week is
to create awareness aboutindividuals with Down Syndrome
and the difficulties they mayface in their lives. About 5000
(00:44):
babies with Down syndrome areborn in the United States each
year, and due to advances withmedical technology, individuals
with Down syndrome are livinglonger than ever before, 80%
living to past 60 years. InMarch, it is also national
Developmental DisabilitiesAwareness Month, and joining me
today to talk about Downsyndrome, Is Kandi Pickard. She
(01:06):
is the CEO and President of theNational Down Syndrome Society,
and she provides vision andleadership, working
collaboratively with individualsand organizations to support the
entire Down Syndrome Community.
And she holds a degree inbusiness administration, and
brings two decades of experiencein operations and effective
administrative management to herrole at NDSS. And Kandi's
(01:26):
involvement in the Down SyndromeCommunity first began as a local
volunteer and advocate after heryoungest son, Mason, was born
with Down syndrome. And 10 yearslater, she leads NDSS with a
focus on building community andkeeping people with Down
syndrome at the center ofeverything the organization
does. We'll talk about howConnecticut Paid Leave could
(01:47):
help individuals, families andcaregivers. Welcome to The Paid
Leave Podcast Kandi.
Kandi Pickard (01:54):
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Nancy Barrow (01:56):
It's so nice to see you, and why don't we start
with the basics, right? Can youtell me what the National Down
Syndrome Society does?
Kandi Pickard (02:03):
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm happy to give
a little background of it. SoNDSS was founded by a mom who
had a daughter with DownSyndrome who was looking for
resources, looking for thatconnection, and just really was
missing it. And so she createdNDSS and NDSS, I think in her
mind, when she first started, itwas going to be like a little
bit of a parent group and anopportunity to create and share
(02:27):
information and resources in2024 we celebrated 45 years. So
fast forward 45 years, and nowwe are this leading advocacy
organization which reallysupports the lifespan, so from
birth all the way to end oflife, for not only just
individuals with Down syndrome,but their families, their
caregivers, and everybody who'sinvolved in their life.
Nancy Barrow (02:48):
And so those services that you offer, how do
you start, you know, and so ifsomeone, a parent, comes to you
and they have a baby with Downsyndrome, what are some of the
services that you offer?
Kandi Pickard (03:00):
Yeah well I think what's really different
for us, and just to kind of givesome perspective to your
listeners, so we are a nationalorganization, so we really help
drive what communities arehearing that they need within
their community. So we haveprobably over 300 local Down
Syndrome organizations, oraffiliates, is what we call
them, that are located acrossthe country, many of them in
(03:22):
Connecticut, New York, right?
That kind of tri state areathere is, there's so many that
really support that day to daypiece of a family. Now we do
have this individual tie. Sowhen I think, when you talk
about, right, you get thatdiagnosis, our website is the
first website that comes up whenyou search down syndrome. And
when you get on there, like, ourwebsite will walk through, you
know, what do you do if you getthis, this new diagnosis? Or,
(03:44):
what if you just had a baby inthere, you got the diagnosis?
You know, after after birth.
Like, what are resources? Whatare understanding that's there?
I think the best part of of whatwe offer our families is that
when you call, somebody picks upthe phone. So at the end of the
day, you're picking up and andif this is your first call, and
(04:06):
you are just a ball of emotionswith getting a diagnosis or
experiencing something withinyour you know within your life,
like you have somebody who'sgoing to listen, support you and
be able to provide you know someinformation on what they can
take back to talk with theirfamilies about.
Nancy Barrow (04:24):
How did you become the CEO and President of the
National Down Syndrome Society?
Kandi Pickard (04:29):
That's a story.
Nancy Barrow (04:30):
How is that? How did that happen?
Kandi Pickard (04:32):
Well, as you mentioned in my bio, so I have a
almost 13 year old son with Downsyndrome. Mason's birthday is in
March.
Nancy Barrow (04:39):
A Teenager, uh oh!
Kandi Pickard (04:41):
Yes! Right around World Down Syndrome Day
too. So I all feel it's verykismic in some sort of way. In
some capacity, Mason is myfourth, and, as I say, my final
child. But I had and after Masonwas born, I really felt like
there was just this pull for meto get involved. And so I joined
our local as we talk about a.
Affiliate. I served on theirboard, and I was actually the
(05:01):
person, when you did get thatdiagnosis, that I was the first
one that they met with. Ibrought resources support. Was
just that person to be able tolisten and just be a sounding
board for families. At the time,this was going back, gosh, 10
years ago, one of the pieces oflegislation that NDSS was
working on, called the ABLE Act,was going on, and we were all
(05:23):
advocating for the passage ofthe ABLE Act. And the CEO at the
time came to actually visit FortWayne, and she kept joking
about, you know, I've got allthese opportunities. Gosh, if
you'd be interested, you shouldreally look at them and apply.
And I was like, I'm not movingto Washington, DC. Yeah, we
Indiana, right? Like, we're notdoing all these types of things.
Well, fast forward. My husband,pushed me to do this, so I
(05:43):
started with NDSS in asupportive role to our CEO, and
I've held many different rolesthroughout the last 10 years,
but I've been in my current roleas president CEO for the last
Gosh, it'll be six years thisyear that I've been in this
role, so it's been a reallyunexpected but really great
journey. When you think abouthow we started with a mom and
(06:05):
for me to be in this role, it'svery it's a blessing to me.
Nancy Barrow (06:10):
And what's your vision like? What do you want to
have happen with NDSS, is it alladvocacy that you're really
trying to do? Or what's yourvision?
Kandi Pickard (06:19):
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, the
advocacy is at the heart of whatwe do, and I think it goes
further than just we do spend alot of time in policy and
advocacy. That's a big part ofour work that we do is just
advocating for the rights ofpeople with Down syndrome,
looking at ways that caregiversand families can be supported in
these roles of caring for aperson with a disability. But I
(06:40):
think that also goes bigger thanthat. I think you mentioned
right as you're talking aboutdown, sort of the life
expectancy right in the mid inthe 80s was 25 now folks are
living 60 plus. So what thatmeans to me is that we have a
critical role in providingresources, supports and just
avenues for families to live along life. And I think what
(07:03):
we're witnessing over the lastfew years is that caregivers
are, you know, are tired.
Caregivers are now dealing withtheir own aging, you know,
circumstances and an adultthat's aging that we've got to
help find some gaps there, toprovide some some support to
them. And that's the I think,for me, there's a lot of things
(07:27):
I think about with the vision ofNDSS, but when I even
internally, look at Mason, youknow, my I want Mason to outlive
me, right? I want Mason to livea very healthy life. So how do I
kind of take my own personal,you know, journey here, and also
what I'm hearing from familiesand people who are supporting
our loved ones and making surethat path is is solid, and that
(07:48):
there's a, there's there's justsupports and recognition for the
caregiving role that reallyneeds to be recognized in our
space.
Nancy Barrow (07:59):
Yeah That's something that we do at
Connecticut Paid Leave. It ourcaregiver leave is is really
amazing, because our definitionof family is very expansive. How
do you think a program like thiscould help you as a parent?
Kandi Pickard (08:13):
There's two ways. I think there's there's
number one, I would say, if youare a caregiver, right, and you
are experiencing these thingslike, you know? And I could
speak for NDSS and probablyother disability organizations
like we want to hear from you.
We want to know what yourexperience because then we're
able to tailor where ourpriorities and our focus are
with what we're creating oradvocating for providing for
families and for caregivers. SoI think first and foremost that,
(08:37):
and I think also the fact thatwe're able to support a family
through this is invaluable. AndI think you made a really good
point of that caregiver. Thecaregiver isn't always mom and
dad, right? It could be agrandparent, it could be a
direct support provider, itcould be a sibling, a best
(08:57):
friend, right? All of thosedifferent avenues, and that
caregiving path looks differentfor each of them. And so I think
for us, it's just so criticalfor us to be able to give people
the information that they need,especially in I think in our in
our world right now, it's likewe're so limited on time. So how
do we provide digestibleinformation that they can get,
(09:21):
that those facts that they needto be able to, you know, manage
their day to day life.
Nancy Barrow (09:27):
Right and not have to quit their job, right? Like
we give up to 12 weeks of incomereplacement that they can take,
all in one block orintermittently or at a reduced
schedule from work. So theflexibility, and I would think
that it would really helpfamilies who are dealing with a
child or an adult child withDown syndrome.
Kandi Pickard (09:47):
Well I think what you're offering to to your
families, a lot of families,don't realize that those, those
resources are out there, right?
Because we so many calls that'llbe, you know, maybe an aging
parent, and they're just,they're tired, right? And
they're tired and they're. Lovedone with Down syndrome as this
active social life, and excuseme, they're trying to, like,
figure out, how do I support Howdo I take care of myself? And
(10:07):
it's like there are groups likeyou in states that are really
giving so much support andnecessary resources to families
to be able to navigate thispath. You know, whatever that
looks like for them.
Nancy Barrow (10:22):
You know that was an interesting point that you
said. You know, how important isyour mental health and well
being as you go through this asa mom and as a family? Did you
reach out to support groups foryourself and therapists, because
that is so important, and that'ssomething, again, that
Connecticut Paid Leave doesmental health. We definitely
give you up to 12 weeks ofincome replacement if you're if
(10:42):
your doctor says, yeah, they'redepressed and, you know,
anxiety, and those are realserious health conditions, which
we cover.
Kandi Pickard (10:49):
Oh it really is.
And I think, you know, when Ilook back, gosh, almost 13 years
ago, right? I think that thatdiagnosis was, for me as it is,
similar to a lot of families whoget a disability or a Down
Syndrome diagnosis, there'sthere's that worry, that concern
that, you know, that path that Iinitially thought was going to
be my fourth child is verydifferent now, but I think that
(11:10):
I had such great family supportat that point in time that I
just shifted my mindset waslike, Okay, how do I get
involved? How do I learneverything that I can about Down
syndrome, so I can make Mason'slife like everything that he
deserves it to be. I thinkwhat's interesting, and I speak
of this for Down syndrome, but Ithink it could probably be
reflected in any disability fora caregiver, it changes, right?
(11:32):
You have that baby, you know,new birth, like all of those
things, and then we startschool. And then now, as we're
talking about 13, we're in adifferent stage with puberty,
and then we're going to start totransition into adulthood. And,
you know, and so when I look ateven where I am now, there's
such a need where I will getonline, or I'll try to find a
(11:52):
little support group. I think alot of people would think like I
have access to all theseresources, and I do, but I think
I again being very transparentwith you and your listeners
here, I don't probably do asmuch or take care of myself the
way that I should. I think I putthat energy into making sure our
families right are taken careof. And so there is a need that
(12:14):
I recognize, and we may talk alittle bit about this too. With
our adult Summit, we had a thiswonderful woman that came in and
talked about mental health andspecifically for caregivers, and
I sat in her session, and I'vehad time to talk to her
afterwards, and the feedbackthat she gave me really is
(12:36):
allowing me to reflect andrealize that I do have to take
that time. I have a great, youknow, village around me that
supports me and helps me, but atthe end of the day, like I do
need to have that time toprocess and reflect and be show
up, to be my best self, right?
Nancy Barrow (12:53):
Right? And I think, you know, women tend to
be that caregiver to everybodyin the family, right? And you
have four kids, so you're busy,you know, I'm sure you do need
to refill your coffers and getsome help.
Kandi Pickard (13:07):
Working on it a work in progress!
Nancy Barrow (13:08):
Yeah, it's a process, right? Maybe we can
talk a little bit about like,when you first got the
diagnosis. Tell me what Downsyndrome is. Are there different
types? Are there varying levels?
Kandi Pickard (13:20):
Yeah I mean, you mentioned right about five or
about 5000 babies are born. Andwe kind of break it down, about
one in 770, 775 babies in theUnited States are born with Down
syndrome. So Down syndrome,again, just to kind of give the
condensed version, there's thethird copy of the 21st
chromosome, which is a geneticcondition that that brings down
(13:42):
syndrome to to life. And I thinkthat what's really unique for me
was I sat back and I alwaysthought about it. I was probably
Mason, was, you know, my lastchild, I was a little older. Did
my age have things to do withit? And I think there is always
that aspect and research that wesee, but we're also seeing it
with all ages now, there are,there are, you know, young
mothers that are having, youknow, babies with Down syndrome.
(14:05):
So I think that that's shiftedand changed a little bit over
probably the last few decades. Ithink for me, the first thing
that I wanted to do is just tryto understand what is Down
syndrome. What does this mean?
Yeah, I think that sometimes,you know what I what I learned
was, right? With Down syndrome,there's a low muscle tone. There
is, you know, a lot of things,the the the Your ears are a
(14:26):
little bit lower, you havealmond eyes. You have a little
bit of a the bridge on your noseis different, right? There's
those visible differences withDown syndrome. But then there's
a lot of those cognitive typesof things that you don't know,
right? When you have a baby,don't see so for us, I mean, we
immediately, as soon as we couldget Mason into the therapies and
(14:46):
to just try to give him everyyou know, the best steps forward
for him as he was developing.
And a lot of families now haveaccess to those in much
different ways than what theyuse. Do. So it was a really
interesting kind of journey forme. And I still learn about Down
syndrome. I think as we talkabout our aging adults, there's
so much we're learning aroundyou know, what this chromosome
(15:11):
means to some of the Alzheimer'spieces, and a lot of different
research and data is being donethat I think as our loved ones
are living longer, like we'relearning more to really help
that life expectancy grow, andalso have those medical
interventions that are going toextend the life of our loved
ones.
Nancy Barrow (15:28):
Yeah so interesting. All of those things
are so very interesting. Andthat was one of my questions is,
does your chance go up if you'rean older mom? But I think that
you answered that by saying,really, like younger people are
getting it too.
Kandi Pickard (15:42):
Yeah I mean, there's research, and I think
that it's, it's genetics, right?
I think it's not hereditary.
It's, there's nothing like thatthat, you know, science proves
that, that, I guess I don't liketo use the word causes Down
syndrome, but Right? Createsthat genetic, sure, that genetic
piece. So, I mean, I think thatyou see families of our women of
(16:03):
all ages that are having, youknow, kiddos with Down syndrome.
Nancy Barrow (16:06):
I think that we have to be sensitive too, right?
Like, how do people with Downsyndrome like to be introduced?
Is that something that's verypersonal? I'm just wondering. I
feel like people should know thecorrect way.
Kandi Pickard (16:19):
Absolutely no, it's a great question, and I'm
glad that you asked, because Ithink sometimes I think
sometimes i i always referencemy dad will sometimes, in the
most loving way, say, oh, Masonhas Downs in the US. We don't
typically say downs. We Downsyndrome. Now in the UK and in
Europe, they do. You referencethat a little bit differently.
(16:39):
So again, it's all kind ofculturally, where you are, I
think, for us, and how werepresent our community. And
what we recommend is calledpeople first language. So, you
know, if you're talking about ayoung woman who has Down
syndrome, you're not saying aDown Syndrome woman, you're
saying a young woman with Downsyndrome, or, you know, a person
first. Yeah, exactly. So it'sall kind of very much people
(17:02):
first. And I think what I wouldrecommend is, if you, if you
meet somebody with Downsyndrome, ask these questions.
They're happy to say, you knowhow they want to be spoken to.
But I think a lot of times, youknow, if you meet, you know,
Mason, it's Mason. It's notMason, because he has Down
syndrome, it's Mason.
Nancy Barrow (17:21):
It's Mason, yeah, yeah. And tell me a little bit
about Mason. What kind of nowteenager is he?
Kandi Pickard (17:29):
Yeah he's a spunky little kid. I have to
say, Mason is in sixth grade.
He's fully included with hisclass. He has, you know, when
you think about education,there's opportunities for him to
for for support, to be pushedinto him, and also for him to be
pulled out in certain areas,which has been a really, really
good piece, a fit for him whenit comes to his educational
(17:50):
journey. But you know, Masonjust wants to be with his
friends. He's been lookingforward to this whole week of
going to see Sonic three withhis friend Luke from school, and
so they're gonna go get pizzabefore, like it's a whole thing
for him. Skip loves hisbirthday. We were counting down
the days. We're planningbirthdays, we're doing all those
other types of things. But Ithink what the best part about
(18:13):
Mason is is that he is truly,authentically himself. He does
not care or worry what anybodythinks about him, and I think
that he just, he just, hechanges somebody's day just by
making them laugh or giving ahug or a high five and a fist
bump, which I think is what Ilove the most.
Nancy Barrow (18:36):
That is awesome.
What are your hopes for Mason ashe grows? You want him to go to
college. You want him to havethat experience. You want him to
be able to work, I'm sure. Butwhat are your hopes for Mason?
Kandi Pickard (18:49):
You know, I think for Mason, I just want him
to be included. I just wantwhatever his goals or dreams may
be, if that's school, if that'swork, if that's starting a
business, or if it'svolunteering, right, whatever
that might look like for him, isthat he has the opportunities to
be able to do what he wants todo, but also be supported in a
(19:11):
really productive way. I thinkthat resuming competence in
Mason is what I always like tosay, because he may tell you he
can't do something, but I can99% guarantee that Mason can do
that, if you just, you know,push him and, you know, assume
that he can.
Nancy Barrow (19:29):
Yeah as a mom, how did your life change having a
child with Down syndrome, withthe other kids and your family
dynamics.
Kandi Pickard (19:39):
I think it was one of the first things I
thought about when we when werealized that Mason was
diagnosed with Down syndrome,was, how is this going to impact
my other kids? How are we goingto tell them? How are we going
to just manage right all of thethings we have day to day, and
then a child with a disabilityand my kids just shocked me. It
(20:00):
was like, We don't care if hehas Down syndrome, we just want
to meet him, right? We just wantto meet him. We want to, you
know, be his friend. And that'sreally the whole relationship
that they've had. I mean, theythey wrestle with him, they push
him, they they they challengehim in all of the ways. So I
think for me, when I look atthat, I think Mason has not only
changed my life and my career. Imean, I was working in hospital
(20:23):
and in law and doing all theseother types of things, and now I
have this privilege to supportand lead other families and
caregivers and loved ones tounderstand and learn more about
Down syndrome, and I see my kidspass very similarly, following
on how Mason's influence haschanged them. My daughter wants
(20:43):
to be a special educationteacher, right? Like there's
these little pieces to whereit's like he's truly given us, I
don't know, just blessings uponblessings, but he's also just
completely like, made us betterpeople and allowed us to really
live our life fully.
Nancy Barrow (21:00):
What a great gift that is, to make you a better
person.
Kandi Pickard (21:04):
Truly, it is I don't think I was a bad person.
No, I think that at the sametime, like I look at things very
differently, right? My mindsetis very different. Our family's
mindset is very different.
Nancy Barrow (21:15):
I love that. What would you like people to know or
learn in March, during WorldDown Syndrome Awareness Month
and national development totalDisabilities Awareness Month.
Kandi Pickard (21:25):
I think that if you haven't met somebody with
Down syndrome, or even anybodyelse with a disability and
intellectual or developmentaldisability, meet them, learn how
great and what they can provideto not only your life, but your
community, to your workplaces,to every aspect of your life. I
think that we celebrate RightDown Syndrome and all of these
(21:49):
different things in March and inOctober because we want to bring
awareness to the beauty of DownSyndrome and the abilities of
people with disabilities. Imean, that's really what it
comes down to, they deserve aplace in this world, just like
the rest of us, then it's ourjob as humans to make that
possible for them.
Nancy Barrow (22:09):
And what would you like people to take away from
this podcast today?
Kandi Pickard (22:14):
Yeah, I think that it would be. I want them to
know that NDSS is a resource. Ithink that, as I mentioned
earlier, people will pick up thephone, we'll answer emails,
we'll do whatever. But you know,even if you maybe it isn't
specific to Down syndrome, ourresources really kind of cover
disabilities in general. So ifyou're looking for support with
(22:35):
financial wellness, or you'relooking at like tools to
understand Alzheimer's, there,there's so many resources and
supports that are on ourwebsite. I think Additionally,
we host an event called theadult Summit, which is really
focused on our adult population,but it also always has an aspect
of caregiving in there. So ifyou are a caregiver and you're
(22:57):
looking for just connection,resources, anything like that. I
mean, we, we hopefully can be ahome for you and help you in
that journey as well. Is thesummit, live, yeah. So we hosted
it last November in California.
We typically will try to move itaround the United States, just
to give access for everybody.
This year, in 2025 we're goingto do a virtual option. So I
(23:18):
would say, stay tuned to ourwebsite or email, or whatever
else, Facebook, all of thosedifferent digital platforms, to
get a little bit ofannouncement, and then we'll be
back in person. And I believe inMarch of 2026, we're kind of
doing some planning now, sohopefully some announcements
coming soon. The Summit soundsawesome. It's great. I mean, I
think we had close to 450 peopleat our last summit, and you've
(23:41):
got individuals withdisabilities, you got
caregivers, you got families,you got professionals. It's just
a really great opportunity toconnect with others and learn at
the same time.
Nancy Barrow (23:52):
What advice would you give as the CEO and
President of NDSS and as a momto someone who just had a child
with Down syndrome?
Kandi Pickard (24:02):
My first words would be congratulations. It
truly is congratulations. Ithink that regardless of the
fear or worry that you may have,you deserve that
congratulations. You're having abeautiful child with Down
syndrome. And I think thateverybody's journey is
different, and I have mystruggles and I have my
(24:24):
challenges, but at the end ofthe day, you are not alone, and
you have a whole community thatwill will embrace you and
support you however, however youneed.
Nancy Barrow (24:36):
It sounds like you have just such a wonderful life
with with Mason.
Kandi Pickard (24:40):
I feel truly so lucky to have him in my life,
and I think that when I watchedthe impact that Mason and even
all other individuals with Downsyndrome make on people who may
not have had a connection or maynot have met somebody with Down
syndrome, i. Um, it's truly lifechanging. I joke we want to
(25:04):
cruise earlier. Or guess lastyear now is when it was and
Mason had the opportunity tomeet this couple, and this
couple just has embraced him,and is they've went to concerts
together. They've invited him tocome, you know, and hang out at
their house and do all theseother types of things. Like
Mason is now somebody that theyjust want to hang out with and
(25:26):
be around, because they justhave had just such a great time
getting to know him, but nowgetting to know the Down
Syndrome Community at whole soit's just, it's wonderful to see
that impact.
Nancy Barrow (25:36):
You know, I just wanted to ask if you have any
other thoughts about ConnecticutPaid Leave as we help people
with chronic conditions. Anylast thoughts about Connecticut
Paid Leave?
Kandi Pickard (25:46):
I mean, I would just say, look to NDSS as a
partner. We are here to helpsupport caregivers and making
sure that their leave is is isit a possibility? I think
additionally that there are somany supports in Connecticut as
well, even from the from thedisability spaces, that just
continue to look to us as aresource and know that we're
(26:09):
we're here to support andvalidate the work that you do.
Nancy Barrow (26:13):
CEO and President of the National Down Syndrome
Society, Kandi Pickard.Thank youso much for being on the paid
leave podcast, and thank you somuch for sharing your personal
story about Mason. I think I gotto know a little bit more about
how he affects everybody.
Kandi Pickard (26:28):
Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having
me.
Nancy Barrow (26:31):
For more information about NDSS, you can
go to ndss.org For informationor to apply for benefits, please
go to ctpaidleave.org This hasbeen another edition of The Paid
Leave Podcast. Please like andsubscribe so you'll be notified
about new podcasts that becomeavailable Connecticut Paid Leave
is a public act with a personalPurpose. I'm Nancy Barrow, and
(26:55):
thanks for listening.
Hello Connecticut, and welcome to The Paid Leave
Podcast. The title basicallysays it all. I'm Nancy Barrow,
and I will be delving into thisnew state program and how it can
help you and your family. Thispodcast will give you
information you should knowabout Connecticut Paid Leave and
maybe just a little bit more.
Connecticut Paid Leave bringspeace of mind to your home,
(00:22):
family and workplace. Welcome toThe Paid Leave Podcast.
Down Syndrome Awareness Week iscelebrated across the globe from
March 15 to march 21 every year,and the purpose of the week is
to create awareness aboutindividuals with Down Syndrome
and the difficulties they mayface in their lives. About 5000
(00:44):
babies with Down syndrome areborn in the United States each
year, and due to advances withmedical technology, individuals
with Down syndrome are livinglonger than ever before, 80%
living to past 60 years. InMarch, it is also national
Developmental DisabilitiesAwareness Month, and joining me
today to talk about Downsyndrome, Is Kandi Pickard. She
(01:06):
is the CEO and President of theNational Down Syndrome Society,
and she provides vision andleadership, working
collaboratively with individualsand organizations to support the
entire Down Syndrome Community.
And she holds a degree inbusiness administration, and
brings two decades of experiencein operations and effective
administrative management to herrole at NDSS. And Kandi's
(01:26):
involvement in the Down SyndromeCommunity first began as a local
volunteer and advocate after heryoungest son, Mason, was born
with Down syndrome. And 10 yearslater, she leads NDSS with a
focus on building community andkeeping people with Down
syndrome at the center ofeverything the organization
does. We'll talk about howConnecticut Paid Leave could
(01:47):
help individuals, families andcaregivers. Welcome to The Paid
Leave Podcast Kandi.
Kandi Pickard (01:54):
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Nancy Barrow (01:56):
It's so nice to see you, and why don't we start
with the basics, right? Can youtell me what the National Down
Syndrome Society does?
Kandi Pickard (02:03):
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm happy to give
a little background of it. SoNDSS was founded by a mom who
had a daughter with DownSyndrome who was looking for
resources, looking for thatconnection, and just really was
missing it. And so she createdNDSS and NDSS, I think in her
mind, when she first started, itwas going to be like a little
bit of a parent group and anopportunity to create and share
(02:27):
information and resources in2024 we celebrated 45 years. So
fast forward 45 years, and nowwe are this leading advocacy
organization which reallysupports the lifespan, so from
birth all the way to end oflife, for not only just
individuals with Down syndrome,but their families, their
caregivers, and everybody who'sinvolved in their life.
Nancy Barrow (02:48):
And so those services that you offer, how do
you start, you know, and so ifsomeone, a parent, comes to you
and they have a baby with Downsyndrome, what are some of the
services that you offer?
Kandi Pickard (03:00):
Yeah well I think what's really different
for us, and just to kind of givesome perspective to your
listeners, so we are a nationalorganization, so we really help
drive what communities arehearing that they need within
their community. So we haveprobably over 300 local Down
Syndrome organizations, oraffiliates, is what we call
them, that are located acrossthe country, many of them in
(03:22):
Connecticut, New York, right?
That kind of tri state areathere is, there's so many that
really support that day to daypiece of a family. Now we do
have this individual tie. Sowhen I think, when you talk
about, right, you get thatdiagnosis, our website is the
first website that comes up whenyou search down syndrome. And
when you get on there, like, ourwebsite will walk through, you
know, what do you do if you getthis, this new diagnosis? Or,
(03:44):
what if you just had a baby inthere, you got the diagnosis?
You know, after after birth.
Like, what are resources? Whatare understanding that's there?
I think the best part of of whatwe offer our families is that
when you call, somebody picks upthe phone. So at the end of the
day, you're picking up and andif this is your first call, and
(04:06):
you are just a ball of emotionswith getting a diagnosis or
experiencing something withinyour you know within your life,
like you have somebody who'sgoing to listen, support you and
be able to provide you know someinformation on what they can
take back to talk with theirfamilies about.
Nancy Barrow (04:24):
How did you become the CEO and President of the
National Down Syndrome Society?
Kandi Pickard (04:29):
That's a story.
Nancy Barrow (04:30):
How is that? How did that happen?
Kandi Pickard (04:32):
Well, as you mentioned in my bio, so I have a
almost 13 year old son with Downsyndrome. Mason's birthday is in
March.
Nancy Barrow (04:39):
A Teenager, uh oh!
Kandi Pickard (04:41):
Yes! Right around World Down Syndrome Day
too. So I all feel it's verykismic in some sort of way. In
some capacity, Mason is myfourth, and, as I say, my final
child. But I had and after Masonwas born, I really felt like
there was just this pull for meto get involved. And so I joined
our local as we talk about a.
Affiliate. I served on theirboard, and I was actually the
(05:01):
person, when you did get thatdiagnosis, that I was the first
one that they met with. Ibrought resources support. Was
just that person to be able tolisten and just be a sounding
board for families. At the time,this was going back, gosh, 10
years ago, one of the pieces oflegislation that NDSS was
working on, called the ABLE Act,was going on, and we were all
(05:23):
advocating for the passage ofthe ABLE Act. And the CEO at the
time came to actually visit FortWayne, and she kept joking
about, you know, I've got allthese opportunities. Gosh, if
you'd be interested, you shouldreally look at them and apply.
And I was like, I'm not movingto Washington, DC. Yeah, we
Indiana, right? Like, we're notdoing all these types of things.
Well, fast forward. My husband,pushed me to do this, so I
(05:43):
started with NDSS in asupportive role to our CEO, and
I've held many different rolesthroughout the last 10 years,
but I've been in my current roleas president CEO for the last
Gosh, it'll be six years thisyear that I've been in this
role, so it's been a reallyunexpected but really great
journey. When you think abouthow we started with a mom and
(06:05):
for me to be in this role, it'svery it's a blessing to me.
Nancy Barrow (06:10):
And what's your vision like? What do you want to
have happen with NDSS, is it alladvocacy that you're really
trying to do? Or what's yourvision?
Kandi Pickard (06:19):
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, the
advocacy is at the heart of whatwe do, and I think it goes
further than just we do spend alot of time in policy and
advocacy. That's a big part ofour work that we do is just
advocating for the rights ofpeople with Down syndrome,
looking at ways that caregiversand families can be supported in
these roles of caring for aperson with a disability. But I
(06:40):
think that also goes bigger thanthat. I think you mentioned
right as you're talking aboutdown, sort of the life
expectancy right in the mid inthe 80s was 25 now folks are
living 60 plus. So what thatmeans to me is that we have a
critical role in providingresources, supports and just
avenues for families to live along life. And I think what
(07:03):
we're witnessing over the lastfew years is that caregivers
are, you know, are tired.
Caregivers are now dealing withtheir own aging, you know,
circumstances and an adultthat's aging that we've got to
help find some gaps there, toprovide some some support to
them. And that's the I think,for me, there's a lot of things
(07:27):
I think about with the vision ofNDSS, but when I even
internally, look at Mason, youknow, my I want Mason to outlive
me, right? I want Mason to livea very healthy life. So how do I
kind of take my own personal,you know, journey here, and also
what I'm hearing from familiesand people who are supporting
our loved ones and making surethat path is is solid, and that
(07:48):
there's a, there's there's justsupports and recognition for the
caregiving role that reallyneeds to be recognized in our
space.
Nancy Barrow (07:59):
Yeah That's something that we do at
Connecticut Paid Leave. It ourcaregiver leave is is really
amazing, because our definitionof family is very expansive. How
do you think a program like thiscould help you as a parent?
Kandi Pickard (08:13):
There's two ways. I think there's there's
number one, I would say, if youare a caregiver, right, and you
are experiencing these thingslike, you know? And I could
speak for NDSS and probablyother disability organizations
like we want to hear from you.
We want to know what yourexperience because then we're
able to tailor where ourpriorities and our focus are
with what we're creating oradvocating for providing for
families and for caregivers. SoI think first and foremost that,
(08:37):
and I think also the fact thatwe're able to support a family
through this is invaluable. AndI think you made a really good
point of that caregiver. Thecaregiver isn't always mom and
dad, right? It could be agrandparent, it could be a
direct support provider, itcould be a sibling, a best
(08:57):
friend, right? All of thosedifferent avenues, and that
caregiving path looks differentfor each of them. And so I think
for us, it's just so criticalfor us to be able to give people
the information that they need,especially in I think in our in
our world right now, it's likewe're so limited on time. So how
do we provide digestibleinformation that they can get,
(09:21):
that those facts that they needto be able to, you know, manage
their day to day life.
Nancy Barrow (09:27):
Right and not have to quit their job, right? Like
we give up to 12 weeks of incomereplacement that they can take,
all in one block orintermittently or at a reduced
schedule from work. So theflexibility, and I would think
that it would really helpfamilies who are dealing with a
child or an adult child withDown syndrome.
Kandi Pickard (09:47):
Well I think what you're offering to to your
families, a lot of families,don't realize that those, those
resources are out there, right?
Because we so many calls that'llbe, you know, maybe an aging
parent, and they're just,they're tired, right? And
they're tired and they're. Lovedone with Down syndrome as this
active social life, and excuseme, they're trying to, like,
figure out, how do I support Howdo I take care of myself? And
(10:07):
it's like there are groups likeyou in states that are really
giving so much support andnecessary resources to families
to be able to navigate thispath. You know, whatever that
looks like for them.
Nancy Barrow (10:22):
You know that was an interesting point that you
said. You know, how important isyour mental health and well
being as you go through this asa mom and as a family? Did you
reach out to support groups foryourself and therapists, because
that is so important, and that'ssomething, again, that
Connecticut Paid Leave doesmental health. We definitely
give you up to 12 weeks ofincome replacement if you're if
(10:42):
your doctor says, yeah, they'redepressed and, you know,
anxiety, and those are realserious health conditions, which
we cover.
Kandi Pickard (10:49):
Oh it really is.
And I think, you know, when Ilook back, gosh, almost 13 years
ago, right? I think that thatdiagnosis was, for me as it is,
similar to a lot of families whoget a disability or a Down
Syndrome diagnosis, there'sthere's that worry, that concern
that, you know, that path that Iinitially thought was going to
be my fourth child is verydifferent now, but I think that
(11:10):
I had such great family supportat that point in time that I
just shifted my mindset waslike, Okay, how do I get
involved? How do I learneverything that I can about Down
syndrome, so I can make Mason'slife like everything that he
deserves it to be. I thinkwhat's interesting, and I speak
of this for Down syndrome, but Ithink it could probably be
reflected in any disability fora caregiver, it changes, right?
(11:32):
You have that baby, you know,new birth, like all of those
things, and then we startschool. And then now, as we're
talking about 13, we're in adifferent stage with puberty,
and then we're going to start totransition into adulthood. And,
you know, and so when I look ateven where I am now, there's
such a need where I will getonline, or I'll try to find a
(11:52):
little support group. I think alot of people would think like I
have access to all theseresources, and I do, but I think
I again being very transparentwith you and your listeners
here, I don't probably do asmuch or take care of myself the
way that I should. I think I putthat energy into making sure our
families right are taken careof. And so there is a need that
(12:14):
I recognize, and we may talk alittle bit about this too. With
our adult Summit, we had a thiswonderful woman that came in and
talked about mental health andspecifically for caregivers, and
I sat in her session, and I'vehad time to talk to her
afterwards, and the feedbackthat she gave me really is
(12:36):
allowing me to reflect andrealize that I do have to take
that time. I have a great, youknow, village around me that
supports me and helps me, but atthe end of the day, like I do
need to have that time toprocess and reflect and be show
up, to be my best self, right?
Nancy Barrow (12:53):
Right? And I think, you know, women tend to
be that caregiver to everybodyin the family, right? And you
have four kids, so you're busy,you know, I'm sure you do need
to refill your coffers and getsome help.
Kandi Pickard (13:07):
Working on it a work in progress!
Nancy Barrow (13:08):
Yeah, it's a process, right? Maybe we can
talk a little bit about like,when you first got the
diagnosis. Tell me what Downsyndrome is. Are there different
types? Are there varying levels?
Kandi Pickard (13:20):
Yeah I mean, you mentioned right about five or
about 5000 babies are born. Andwe kind of break it down, about
one in 770, 775 babies in theUnited States are born with Down
syndrome. So Down syndrome,again, just to kind of give the
condensed version, there's thethird copy of the 21st
chromosome, which is a geneticcondition that that brings down
(13:42):
syndrome to to life. And I thinkthat what's really unique for me
was I sat back and I alwaysthought about it. I was probably
Mason, was, you know, my lastchild, I was a little older. Did
my age have things to do withit? And I think there is always
that aspect and research that wesee, but we're also seeing it
with all ages now, there are,there are, you know, young
mothers that are having, youknow, babies with Down syndrome.
(14:05):
So I think that that's shiftedand changed a little bit over
probably the last few decades. Ithink for me, the first thing
that I wanted to do is just tryto understand what is Down
syndrome. What does this mean?
Yeah, I think that sometimes,you know what I what I learned
was, right? With Down syndrome,there's a low muscle tone. There
is, you know, a lot of things,the the the Your ears are a
(14:26):
little bit lower, you havealmond eyes. You have a little
bit of a the bridge on your noseis different, right? There's
those visible differences withDown syndrome. But then there's
a lot of those cognitive typesof things that you don't know,
right? When you have a baby,don't see so for us, I mean, we
immediately, as soon as we couldget Mason into the therapies and
(14:46):
to just try to give him everyyou know, the best steps forward
for him as he was developing.
And a lot of families now haveaccess to those in much
different ways than what theyuse. Do. So it was a really
interesting kind of journey forme. And I still learn about Down
syndrome. I think as we talkabout our aging adults, there's
so much we're learning aroundyou know, what this chromosome
(15:11):
means to some of the Alzheimer'spieces, and a lot of different
research and data is being donethat I think as our loved ones
are living longer, like we'relearning more to really help
that life expectancy grow, andalso have those medical
interventions that are going toextend the life of our loved
ones.
Nancy Barrow (15:28):
Yeah so interesting. All of those things
are so very interesting. Andthat was one of my questions is,
does your chance go up if you'rean older mom? But I think that
you answered that by saying,really, like younger people are
getting it too.
Kandi Pickard (15:42):
Yeah I mean, there's research, and I think
that it's, it's genetics, right?
I think it's not hereditary.
It's, there's nothing like thatthat, you know, science proves
that, that, I guess I don't liketo use the word causes Down
syndrome, but Right? Createsthat genetic, sure, that genetic
piece. So, I mean, I think thatyou see families of our women of
(16:03):
all ages that are having, youknow, kiddos with Down syndrome.
Nancy Barrow (16:06):
I think that we have to be sensitive too, right?
Like, how do people with Downsyndrome like to be introduced?
Is that something that's verypersonal? I'm just wondering. I
feel like people should know thecorrect way.
Kandi Pickard (16:19):
Absolutely no, it's a great question, and I'm
glad that you asked, because Ithink sometimes I think
sometimes i i always referencemy dad will sometimes, in the
most loving way, say, oh, Masonhas Downs in the US. We don't
typically say downs. We Downsyndrome. Now in the UK and in
Europe, they do. You referencethat a little bit differently.
(16:39):
So again, it's all kind ofculturally, where you are, I
think, for us, and how werepresent our community. And
what we recommend is calledpeople first language. So, you
know, if you're talking about ayoung woman who has Down
syndrome, you're not saying aDown Syndrome woman, you're
saying a young woman with Downsyndrome, or, you know, a person
first. Yeah, exactly. So it'sall kind of very much people
(17:02):
first. And I think what I wouldrecommend is, if you, if you
meet somebody with Downsyndrome, ask these questions.
They're happy to say, you knowhow they want to be spoken to.
But I think a lot of times, youknow, if you meet, you know,
Mason, it's Mason. It's notMason, because he has Down
syndrome, it's Mason.
Nancy Barrow (17:21):
It's Mason, yeah, yeah. And tell me a little bit
about Mason. What kind of nowteenager is he?
Kandi Pickard (17:29):
Yeah he's a spunky little kid. I have to
say, Mason is in sixth grade.
He's fully included with hisclass. He has, you know, when
you think about education,there's opportunities for him to
for for support, to be pushedinto him, and also for him to be
pulled out in certain areas,which has been a really, really
good piece, a fit for him whenit comes to his educational
(17:50):
journey. But you know, Masonjust wants to be with his
friends. He's been lookingforward to this whole week of
going to see Sonic three withhis friend Luke from school, and
so they're gonna go get pizzabefore, like it's a whole thing
for him. Skip loves hisbirthday. We were counting down
the days. We're planningbirthdays, we're doing all those
other types of things. But Ithink what the best part about
(18:13):
Mason is is that he is truly,authentically himself. He does
not care or worry what anybodythinks about him, and I think
that he just, he just, hechanges somebody's day just by
making them laugh or giving ahug or a high five and a fist
bump, which I think is what Ilove the most.
Nancy Barrow (18:36):
That is awesome.
What are your hopes for Mason ashe grows? You want him to go to
college. You want him to havethat experience. You want him to
be able to work, I'm sure. Butwhat are your hopes for Mason?
Kandi Pickard (18:49):
You know, I think for Mason, I just want him
to be included. I just wantwhatever his goals or dreams may
be, if that's school, if that'swork, if that's starting a
business, or if it'svolunteering, right, whatever
that might look like for him, isthat he has the opportunities to
be able to do what he wants todo, but also be supported in a
(19:11):
really productive way. I thinkthat resuming competence in
Mason is what I always like tosay, because he may tell you he
can't do something, but I can99% guarantee that Mason can do
that, if you just, you know,push him and, you know, assume
that he can.
Nancy Barrow (19:29):
Yeah as a mom, how did your life change having a
child with Down syndrome, withthe other kids and your family
dynamics.
Kandi Pickard (19:39):
I think it was one of the first things I
thought about when we when werealized that Mason was
diagnosed with Down syndrome,was, how is this going to impact
my other kids? How are we goingto tell them? How are we going
to just manage right all of thethings we have day to day, and
then a child with a disabilityand my kids just shocked me. It
(20:00):
was like, We don't care if hehas Down syndrome, we just want
to meet him, right? We just wantto meet him. We want to, you
know, be his friend. And that'sreally the whole relationship
that they've had. I mean, theythey wrestle with him, they push
him, they they they challengehim in all of the ways. So I
think for me, when I look atthat, I think Mason has not only
changed my life and my career. Imean, I was working in hospital
(20:23):
and in law and doing all theseother types of things, and now I
have this privilege to supportand lead other families and
caregivers and loved ones tounderstand and learn more about
Down syndrome, and I see my kidspass very similarly, following
on how Mason's influence haschanged them. My daughter wants
(20:43):
to be a special educationteacher, right? Like there's
these little pieces to whereit's like he's truly given us, I
don't know, just blessings uponblessings, but he's also just
completely like, made us betterpeople and allowed us to really
live our life fully.
Nancy Barrow (21:00):
What a great gift that is, to make you a better
person.
Kandi Pickard (21:04):
Truly, it is I don't think I was a bad person.
No, I think that at the sametime, like I look at things very
differently, right? My mindsetis very different. Our family's
mindset is very different.
Nancy Barrow (21:15):
I love that. What would you like people to know or
learn in March, during WorldDown Syndrome Awareness Month
and national development totalDisabilities Awareness Month.
Kandi Pickard (21:25):
I think that if you haven't met somebody with
Down syndrome, or even anybodyelse with a disability and
intellectual or developmentaldisability, meet them, learn how
great and what they can provideto not only your life, but your
community, to your workplaces,to every aspect of your life. I
think that we celebrate RightDown Syndrome and all of these
(21:49):
different things in March and inOctober because we want to bring
awareness to the beauty of DownSyndrome and the abilities of
people with disabilities. Imean, that's really what it
comes down to, they deserve aplace in this world, just like
the rest of us, then it's ourjob as humans to make that
possible for them.
Nancy Barrow (22:09):
And what would you like people to take away from
this podcast today?
Kandi Pickard (22:14):
Yeah, I think that it would be. I want them to
know that NDSS is a resource. Ithink that, as I mentioned
earlier, people will pick up thephone, we'll answer emails,
we'll do whatever. But you know,even if you maybe it isn't
specific to Down syndrome, ourresources really kind of cover
disabilities in general. So ifyou're looking for support with
(22:35):
financial wellness, or you'relooking at like tools to
understand Alzheimer's, there,there's so many resources and
supports that are on ourwebsite. I think Additionally,
we host an event called theadult Summit, which is really
focused on our adult population,but it also always has an aspect
of caregiving in there. So ifyou are a caregiver and you're
(22:57):
looking for just connection,resources, anything like that. I
mean, we, we hopefully can be ahome for you and help you in
that journey as well. Is thesummit, live, yeah. So we hosted
it last November in California.
We typically will try to move itaround the United States, just
to give access for everybody.
This year, in 2025 we're goingto do a virtual option. So I
(23:18):
would say, stay tuned to ourwebsite or email, or whatever
else, Facebook, all of thosedifferent digital platforms, to
get a little bit ofannouncement, and then we'll be
back in person. And I believe inMarch of 2026, we're kind of
doing some planning now, sohopefully some announcements
coming soon. The Summit soundsawesome. It's great. I mean, I
think we had close to 450 peopleat our last summit, and you've
(23:41):
got individuals withdisabilities, you got
caregivers, you got families,you got professionals. It's just
a really great opportunity toconnect with others and learn at
the same time.
Nancy Barrow (23:52):
What advice would you give as the CEO and
President of NDSS and as a momto someone who just had a child
with Down syndrome?
Kandi Pickard (24:02):
My first words would be congratulations. It
truly is congratulations. Ithink that regardless of the
fear or worry that you may have,you deserve that
congratulations. You're having abeautiful child with Down
syndrome. And I think thateverybody's journey is
different, and I have mystruggles and I have my
(24:24):
challenges, but at the end ofthe day, you are not alone, and
you have a whole community thatwill will embrace you and
support you however, however youneed.
Nancy Barrow (24:36):
It sounds like you have just such a wonderful life
with with Mason.
Kandi Pickard (24:40):
I feel truly so lucky to have him in my life,
and I think that when I watchedthe impact that Mason and even
all other individuals with Downsyndrome make on people who may
not have had a connection or maynot have met somebody with Down
syndrome, i. Um, it's truly lifechanging. I joke we want to
(25:04):
cruise earlier. Or guess lastyear now is when it was and
Mason had the opportunity tomeet this couple, and this
couple just has embraced him,and is they've went to concerts
together. They've invited him tocome, you know, and hang out at
their house and do all theseother types of things. Like
Mason is now somebody that theyjust want to hang out with and
(25:26):
be around, because they justhave had just such a great time
getting to know him, but nowgetting to know the Down
Syndrome Community at whole soit's just, it's wonderful to see
that impact.
Nancy Barrow (25:36):
You know, I just wanted to ask if you have any
other thoughts about ConnecticutPaid Leave as we help people
with chronic conditions. Anylast thoughts about Connecticut
Paid Leave?
Kandi Pickard (25:46):
I mean, I would just say, look to NDSS as a
partner. We are here to helpsupport caregivers and making
sure that their leave is is isit a possibility? I think
additionally that there are somany supports in Connecticut as
well, even from the from thedisability spaces, that just
continue to look to us as aresource and know that we're
(26:09):
we're here to support andvalidate the work that you do.
Nancy Barrow (26:13):
CEO and President of the National Down Syndrome
Society, Kandi Pickard.Thank youso much for being on the paid
leave podcast, and thank you somuch for sharing your personal
story about Mason. I think I gotto know a little bit more about
how he affects everybody.
Kandi Pickard (26:28):
Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having
me.
Nancy Barrow (26:31):
For more information about NDSS, you can
go to ndss.org For informationor to apply for benefits, please
go to ctpaidleave.org This hasbeen another edition of The Paid
Leave Podcast. Please like andsubscribe so you'll be notified
about new podcasts that becomeavailable Connecticut Paid Leave
is a public act with a personalPurpose. I'm Nancy Barrow, and
(26:55):
thanks for listening.
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