October 15, 2025 • 29 mins
On this episode of The Paid Leave Podcast, we are talking about paid family leave policies and how they affect families and communities. Drexel University in Philadelphia Pennsylvania, has done a study called Making the Case for Paid Family Leave. The study shows the benefits of taking time off for your own serious health condition or that of a loved one as well as taking pregnancy and bonding leave when adding to your family. Here to talk about this is Natalie Shaak, she is the Associate Director of Communication and Administration at the Center for Hunger Communities at the Dornsife School of Public Health at Drexel University.
The study, which included a literature review and personal stories, highlights the physical and mental health benefits of paid leave, particularly for mothers and infants. It found that paid leave reduces postpartum depression, domestic violence, and stress, and improves child health outcomes. The conversation also touches on the challenges of implementing paid leave, including the need for inclusive policies that cover part-time and gig workers. They emphasize the importance of paid leave for workplace culture, recruitment, and retention, and advocate for a national program to ensure equitable access.
To get in touch with Drexel's Dornsife School of Public Health: About the Drexel Dornsife School of Public Health | Drexel Dornsife School of Public Health
For information or to apply for benefits go to: CT Paid Leave
https://ctpaidleave.org/s/?language=en_US
https://www.facebook.com/CTPaidLeave
https://www.instagram.com/ctpaidleave/
https://twitter.com/CTPaidLeave
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ct+paid+leave
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nancy Barrow (00:01):
Hello Connecticut, and welcome to The Paid Leave
Podcast. The title basicallysays it all. I'm Nancy Barrow,
and I will be delving into thisnew state program and how it can
help you and your family. Thispodcast will give you
information you should knowabout Connecticut Paid Leave and
maybe just a little bit more.
Connecticut Paid Leave bringspeace of mind to your home,
(00:22):
family and workplace. Welcome toThe Paid Leave Podcast.
The need for a national paidleave program still exists.
However, it remains elusive.
Drexel University inPhiladelphia has done a study
called Making The Case for PaidFamily Leave. It's a study aimed
at showing the benefits oftaking time off for your own
(00:44):
serious health condition or thatof a loved one, as well as
taking pregnancy and bondingleave when adding to your
family. Here to talk about thisis Natalie Shaak. She is the
Associate Director ofCommunications and
Administration at the Center forHunger Free communities at the
Dornsife School of Public Healthat Drexel University. And
welcome to The Paid leavePodcast. Natalie.
Natalie Shaak (01:06):
Hi.
Nancy Barrow (01:07):
I'm really looking forward to having this
conversation with you about thisstudy.
Natalie Shaak (01:11):
I'm really excited to talk about it.
Nancy Barrow (01:13):
So how did you gather the information for The
Making the Case for Paid FamilyLeave?
Natalie Shaak (01:18):
Yeah, so it was a multi disciplinary group of
folks from our staffCoordinating Committee across
the Dornsife School of PublicHealth. And we really just came
together. And we started bywriting down all the big
questions we had about paidfamily leave. How does it impact
health? What does it do forkids? What does it do for
parents? How does it impactbusinesses? Kind of all the
(01:39):
things that we wanted to know,and then kind of listed some of
the common arguments that wehear, both for and against it.
It was really important for meto look at both the benefits and
challenges of paid leave,because, of course, you know, if
it was all really just great andeasy to do, we would be doing it
already, like it would just haveprograms everywhere, and there
(01:59):
wouldn't be a challenge tohaving paid leave everywhere.
Then what we essentially did iswe did a large literature
review. Our team combed throughall the scientific studies and
evaluations from acrossdifferent fields. We looked at
economics, we looked at publichealth across the United States,
at especially the states thathave implemented mandatory
(02:19):
programs, to see what they'vebeen finding, to see what
happens when people had accessto paid family leave, what
happens when they don't haveaccess to paid family leave, and
then we kind of put it alltogether to see what picture it
painted for us, instead of justrelying on the anecdotes or the
assumptions that we werecommonly hearing in The
(02:40):
arguments either for or againstpaid leave.
Nancy Barrow (02:42):
And did you interview people in the States,
or did you really just go by thescientific stuff that you found?
Natalie Shaak (02:48):
We tried to stick with the scientific research. We
felt like that painted a goodpicture. One of the things we
did want to do also was includesome lived experience. So in the
brief we included some storiesof folks from Philadelphia
talking about their ownexperiences of not having access
to paid family leave and howthat personally impacted them.
We found that the theinteraction between personal,
(03:12):
individual stories and the bigpicture data kind of brings it
home a little bit more, becausewe did want to keep it local,
but also make sure we were doinga larger national picture, so it
wasn't just so minuscule focusedon Pennsylvania or Philadelphia.
Nancy Barrow (03:29):
Let's talk about what you did find out about paid
family leave in the in thestudy, and the impacts that you
found.
Natalie Shaak (03:36):
One of the things that, for me, that was really
interesting was looking at thedifference between paid family
leave and FMLA the FederalMedical Leave Act, which is what
a lot of people think of whenthey think of paid family leave.
I know when we started thestudy, this is also very
personal for me. I was notplanning to have children. It
was not something that was in mymy life goals or plans. So this
(03:58):
was a project that I knew verylittle about so it was important
for me to learn as much aspossible. So I looked a lot into
FMLA, and I was very, kind ofshocked in what I learned about
it. I didn't realize that it wasunpaid and how few people are
actually qualified for this, andthat all it really does is it
(04:19):
guarantees that your job isprotected for up to 12 weeks.
You can take this time off tocare for yourself or care for a
family member, but you're notguaranteed to have any money
come into you unless you happento have paid sick or vacation
time that your employer allowsyou to take during that time.
And it only applies to a littleover half of the employees in
(04:40):
the US, unless states have, youknow, different policies. But
you have to have 50 employees ormore. You have to have been
working at your employer for 12more months or more, and you
have to have worked for over1200 50 hours over the past 12
months. So like I said, like alot of people don't even qualify
for this, which I was kind ofshocked. Find out. And then on
(05:01):
top of that, only, like threequarters of the population even
has access to paid time off orsick time. So okay, you might
have access to FMLA or employer,but you might not have sick
time. So you can take the timeoff, but you're not going to get
paid for it. So it's reallyinteresting to me to even
acknowledge that and think aboutit. So I was like, All right,
(05:22):
this is very interesting. Sowhen we talk about the physical
impacts of of having time off, Imean, obviously giving birth is
a very physically demandingexperience.
Nancy Barrow (05:37):
It is, you know, it is a serious health
condition. That's what we callpregnancy. It is.
Natalie Shaak (05:42):
Exactly like and whether or not you have it
through, you know, vaginal birthor a C section, there is
recovery that is necessary.
There may be more. I try toexplain this, I I did end up in
the process of working on this.
I actually found out I waspregnant and it was unplanned,
so I was like, wow, this is waymore applicable than I thought
(06:05):
it would be. And I ended uphaving a C section, and I
explained that I'm like, this isa major abdominal surgery. Like,
they cut through all your stuff,like, you don't realize how big
of a surgery it is, everything,layers upon layers in your
stomach needs to heal, so that,in and of itself, you need
(06:26):
actual time for the physical toheal. So I think that's really
important from a physicalperspective. And what we found
in a lot of the research is mostparents, most moms, they went
back to work way too fast andway faster than their doctors
encourage them to do so, almosta quarter of women went back
(06:47):
within two weeks, which, if youhave a C section, they don't
even encourage you to pickthings up within that period. I
actually have a friend who worksin the restaurant industry, and
she had a C section, and shewent back in four weeks, and she
was lifting kegs in four weeksafter a C section, and I almost
(07:12):
lost it, yeah, the amount ofdamage that you can physically
do to yourself by going back tooquickly is insurmountable. For
folks who had access to paidleave, they had children had
higher birth weight, they hadless premature births, which is
really interesting, because Iactually think that might be
attributed to stress prior tobirth leading to longer term.
(07:35):
There was lower infant mortalityand less death after birth, and
there was also it was linked tolonger breastfeeding, which has
a lot of positive physicalimpacts on the children as well.
And all of these impacts areseen higher and lower income
families, and those are usuallythe ones who are least likely to
(07:58):
have on have paid time off. So,so all the physical benefits of
paid time off are most likely toimpact people who are lower
income.
Nancy Barrow (08:08):
Yeah, and what about the long term benefits of
paid family leave? Oh, my God,start with children or parents,
or whatever you want to startwith.
Natalie Shaak (08:17):
Yeah, I was pretty shocked by this. I mean,
obviously physically needing torecover. If you don't long term
do that, you can have a lot ofinternal complications. And the
mothers, if they take the timeto recover, they are less likely
to have long term issues withthat. Breastfeeding obviously
leads to, you know, otherpositive outcomes long term,
(08:41):
there's there were lower odds ofpostpartum depression, lower
odds of post postpartumrehospitalization. It reduced.
There was lower rates of obesityand lower issues with high blood
pressure, diabetes, alcohol use,smoking, all of these things
were reduced if folks took moretime off after childbirth. And I
(09:04):
think a lot of that is probablyassociated with the mental
health impact of taking time offand stress, which is awesome,
and I think they we saw theseoutcomes, both for the mother
and also for both parents, um,which I think is associated
again, with with stress.
Nancy Barrow (09:22):
Yeah, well, I will say the one great thing about
Connecticut Paid Leave is we'refinding that 44% of partners are
taking the time off to bond withtheir babies, which I think is
really important when you haveboth, that's even bigger
impacts.
Natalie Shaak (09:40):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that we
found in the study, is that veryfew men are taking time off,
either they don't realize theyhave it, they feel like there's
a stigma against taking it, orthey just don't have the time
off in the same way as women do.
I think postpartum depressionreduced by like 15% when, when
mothers took 12 weeks of of timeoff, versus just eight weeks.
(10:04):
And because of that, obviouslythe impacts of that can be
lifelong. I mean, if you're ifyou're experiencing postpartum
depression, that impacts yourability to have good bonding and
attachment with your child,which can that can be a lifelong
impact on both you and yourchild, and as we know that is
depression and mental health isone of the leading postpartum
(10:27):
mortality causes for women is isrelated to suicide and mental
health related deaths, and we'reseeing a rise in that and and
postpartum deaths in women. So Ithink that that's massively
because of the mental healthrelated issues. There's also
(10:47):
family stress is reduced.
Domestic violence goes down,which is amazing, because
there's less financial stressbetween partners, like I said
using things like drugs andalcohol and smoking, that are
just general coping mechanismsare all really important. I
(11:09):
can't stress enough theimportance of that attachment
piece. And I think that alsogoes back to the benefits for
both parents and the child ishaving that that time to attach
and connect with your child isgoing to be great for the
parents mental health, but alsothe child's ability to learn how
to emotionally regulate and copethemselves and develop good
(11:29):
mental health for the rest oftheir lives.
Nancy Barrow (11:32):
We found, too that it was pretty interesting when
we found that parents maybe hadtheir first child in a state
that they didn't have paidleave. And then they moved to
Connecticut, and they hadanother child, and they were
able to take time off. Thefathers noted that they had
better relationships with thechildren when they would bond a
(11:55):
closer connection. I talked to afather, and he's like, it just
hurts me so much that I didn'thave that with my first child.
You know that it that that firstchild missed that opportunity to
be able to bond with bothparents.
Natalie Shaak (12:08):
They've also found that when the father can
take off more time, they're moreengaged in just general
caretaking, which leads tobetter relationships. And I
would love to see some researchthat that connects men taking
time off for leave and thelength that they take off to
divorce rates later on. BecauseI've been I've been reading a
(12:30):
lot about the division of laborin families after having
children, and that is slowlybecoming one of the number one
reasons that people are gettingdivorced is women taking on all
of the emotional and physicaland home labor. And I think part
of that is because women arehome and figuring it out and
(12:52):
having routines during this thispostpartum period, and if men
are going right back to work,they're not being a part of that
routine. That's there's multiplereasons, but I think that might
be a part of it. And gettingthem a part of the routine right
away, and having them beintegral in the caretaking from
the beginning can help addresssome of those pieces. Because
(13:12):
I've heard a lot of men say,like, what is there for me to do
at this point? You're the onetaking care of the
breastfeeding. I can't do thatfor you, but there's so many
other things you can do andthose beginning stages that can
be helpful, that then can carryon through the rest of that
child's life and through therest of your relationship
together, that can create ahealthy relationship.
Nancy Barrow (13:32):
Yeah, one of the good things about Connecticut
Paid Leave, I find, is that saythe father only takes the first
month off. He can take thoseother two months, anytime during
that first year that the baby'sborn, so that bonding leave can
you know it can come at any timeduring that first year, which
is, which is helpful,
Natalie Shaak (13:52):
Because that would be great. I know my
partner saved a week of of histime for when I went back to
work, right? So that transition,and knowing that it would be a
challenging time for me to goback to work, then he could take
off, and we can, can kind ofstagger that, because I think
that's also, I think, animportant piece of it is we are
(14:14):
a society now that it used to becommunity raising children, and
now we're families and insular,and you're on your own,
essentially. So when there's nottwo people there, or more or
multi generational families, itcan feel very lonely. To be at
home by yourself with a newbornand to not have another person
with you can be verychallenging, very and I think
(14:37):
that's probably why we see somuch postpartum depression, is
you have essentially a potatothat doesn't talk to you, and
you're home by yourself foreight hours like that. You're
not getting the interaction.
It's stressful. It's new,challenging. You're not getting
enough sleep, you're not takingcare of yourself, probably as
well as you should. You don'tget a break. Like that starts to
build and that's not great foranyone's mental health.
Nancy Barrow (15:01):
Oh, that makes total sense. That makes total
sense. Yeah. What about healthequity? What did the Drexel
study find?
Natalie Shaak (15:09):
Yeah, so access.
Well, I think just havingchildren in general obviously
disproportionately impacts womenand their potential earning
later on. But we found that,obviously, lower wage workers,
people of color are tend to bein less likely to have access to
pain leave. I think that's justit's it's an unfortunate piece
(15:34):
that we found is a lot of thesepolicies, they don't apply to
part time workers or gigworkers, or our folks who don't
have the long history in aspecific job. And I think that
is where the challenge comes in.
If you're in an employer like,like, I used to work in the
(15:55):
restaurant industry. My partnerstill works in the restaurant
industry, and it's a very itebbs and flows, and you may not
have consistent employment orconsistent hours, and that can
impact your ability to even beeligible for things like FMLA or
even some some states theirtheir paid leave policies, so
they're less likely to haveaccess to unpaid leave or paid
(16:18):
leave, even in states that offerit.
Nancy Barrow (16:21):
That's one of the things I love about our state,
and that we really do focus on,the fact that we really do want
to hit those part time workers,you know. And like you said,
it's so important, you know,they want to, they want to be
able to get covered, because ifthey're not working and they get
hurt, they're not getting paid.
So we really want to be veryinclusive with with part time
(16:42):
workers.
Natalie Shaak (16:44):
Yeah, one of the things they found out in
California when they rolled outpaid leave is that it the
largest increases they found inpeople taking leave were
actually non college educated,unmarried mothers who may not
have realized they had access tocertain leave so now they did a
really good job in promotingthat the the paid leave program,
(17:06):
and that really increased thoseopportunities. So certain paid
leave programs, if they'rerolled out and it's shared
correctly, can really try tolevel the playing field a little
bit more, because typically thejobs that have access from a
private standpoint, the privateemployers who offer it are
(17:26):
usually employers where you haveto have a college degree or a
certain kind of credential.
Higher wage jobs, you know,they're not usually offering,
you know, six months paid paidleave to entry level workers.
That's usually a benefit that'sseen at higher wage jobs or
something CEOs get, you know,those kind of things. Those are
not, you know, offered to retailworkers or things like that. So
(17:47):
by offering this where it's it'swider availability, it is really
starting to level theopportunities a little bit more
to folks who have nottraditionally gotten that
opportunity.
Nancy Barrow (18:01):
Yeah, we try really hard to do a lot of
outreach, like with thispodcast, we really try to
educate people about who'seligible and how they can get
into the paid leave program, andjust going to our website that
that's how they can find outmore about it, at
ctpaidleave.org. But let's talkabout paid family leave and
business. How does paid leaveaffect workplace culture? How
(18:24):
does it affect businesses?
Natalie Shaak (18:26):
Yeah, this was the the area that I was the most
interested to find out, becausethis is where a lot of the
arguments are made against paidleave is, oh, it's going to be
too costly for the businesses.
They're not going to want to doit. It's going to impact their
productivity. It's so hard whenpeople go out on leave and all
this kind of stuff. So this waswhat I was most interested to
find out. A lot of the impactactually is benefit beneficial.
(18:49):
So it has offering paid leave,and this is from like, a private
perspective, like, if a companyoffers it on their own, it has a
massive impact on culture.
There's a lot of loyalty andconnection to the company if
they offer this as as an addedbenefit. They've also found it's
really great for recruitment andretention of employees. A lot of
(19:14):
surveys and research show thatpeople will seek out employers
who offer that as a benefit andthat is seen as highly desirable
to potential workers. So that'sreally important. It actually
increases productivity, whichactually makes sense, because if
you come back too early andyou're constantly you're not
(19:34):
healed, you're unhealthy, you'restressed out, you're not really
there. And that goes forcaretaking too, because that's
the other thing is, like a lotof these paid leave, they don't
just cover having children. It'scaretaking. If you have, you
know, a child with specialneeds, or a family member that
you're caring for, and you'rejust not really fully there,
because you're you're dealingwith something that's happening
(19:56):
at home, your productivity isgoing to tank, versus if you can
just take. The time off, go dealwith your the situation that you
need to at home and come backwhen things are taken care of,
that's going to be better foreverybody in the workplace. And
that's what they have found. Andthen a lot of folks worry about
small businesses and how it willimpact them. They're like, Oh,
(20:18):
this is only something that bigbusinesses can afford, they
build that into their bottomline. And there was a couple of
studies that we found, and someof them showed there was a
little bit of cost, but thatthey found that long term, it
really didn't increase theircosts too much. And that was
like a large majority. I thinkit was like 80, almost 90% said
(20:39):
it didn't increase their costlong term, but that it actually
balanced out by reducing theirturnover. Because a lot of
times, what they find is that,especially women, after they've
had kids, they are less likelyto stay in the workplace if they
come back too soon, they getburned out, they're working in a
not family friendly workplace,and they're likely to leave, and
(21:02):
then you have to fill, you haveto do a search, you have to fill
their position, and then youhave to retrain somebody that's
really costly, as opposed tokeeping a strong employee and
making an environment that workswell for them. And then, like,
people are going to have kids,like it's going to happen,
they're going to need to need tocare for a person like this
(21:22):
happens, and it's better forbusinesses and organizations to,
you know, have a good program,than to just kind of hope it
doesn't happen. And it's betterto plan ahead for it and have a
process so that when people doneed to go out on leave, it's
better than just be like, Oh no,it happened, and now, like
you're throwing it togetherwilly Nilly.
Nancy Barrow (21:44):
You can take intermittent leave or reduce
schedule. So if you know thatyou're going to be helping
someone Monday through Friday,you can take that reduction. And
it doesn't have to be all atonce. You don't have to take
that lump three months like itleaves it a little bit more
flexible for people, so theydon't think that they have to
quit their job.
Natalie Shaak (22:04):
Yeah, like you never life throws things at you.
You don't know that a familymember isn't going to get
diagnosed with cancer, and youneed to go with them to their
treatments, or you're going tohave a child that has a serious
illness, and you need to go withthem. So it's not always like
you can foresee something like apregnancy, like you know it's
coming, you have right plan forthat and go out on leave, but
(22:24):
some of these are things youdon't necessarily have the time
to plan for that, and it's niceto have some security and know
that your employer is is goingto back you up like that creates
a sense of loyalty and feelingsupported that right now is
really important, especially foryounger generations. I know that
(22:45):
the younger generation ofemployee, of employees, a lot of
them, are not thinking abouthaving kids in this environment,
in this economy, but also theyare feeling a little bit jaded
about the work world, and theyare much more likely to be drawn
to employers that are creatingthis kind of safe environment
that shows that they they'recared for and that they matter,
(23:06):
versus employers who are kind oflike good luck with that.
Nancy Barrow (23:09):
Tell me some of the implications of not having a
national paid leave program.
Natalie Shaak (23:15):
Yeah, so I think by not having a national
program, it kind of leavesthings to be a little bit like
patchwork and inequitable. Ithink it's really interesting to
look at Pennsylvania, forexample. So we will have folks
who live in New Jersey and workin Pennsylvania and vice versa,
and that can be a realchallenge. It can be very
(23:37):
confusing. If someone changesjobs Camden to Philadelphia and
vice versa, they may have accessin one place and not have access
in another place because of thedifferent state policies. And
that can be problematic. It canalso leave folks you know, with
inequitable access, leaving, youknow, folks high and dry if they
(23:57):
lose a job or they need tochange jobs for for some reason,
I think it's really interestingwhen we look at the states that
have passed paid leave policiesversus the states that have not.
And there are some, some, somethemes. And if you look at the
states that have some of thehighest infant and maternal
(24:19):
mortality rates. They also tendto not have paid leave policies.
They also have some of theharshest abortion restrictions,
the lowest minimum wages, thehighest poverty rates. It's
really setting up inequity forwomen. It's, I mean, I hate to
say women, but also, I mean alot of people, but it's really
targeted at women. They're goingto have no choice to have a
(24:41):
child have no support afterthey're born, and then, you
know, they are going to bechallenged to work in a world to
make enough money to take careof that kid. And then those
states also don't have reallygreat public assistance
programs.
Nancy Barrow (24:57):
You're located in Philly, but why doesn't
Pennsylvania have a paid familyleave program yet? And do you
know if there's advocates thatare working on this right now?
Because it took Connecticut along time to get it It took
almost like seven years for forit to pass.
Natalie Shaak (25:12):
Yeah, there's been conversations, and at the
state level, they've been havingconversations in Harrisburg for
quite a few years. Sometimes itgets out of committee. Sometimes
it doesn't, and a lot of theconversations and the hang ups
have been around the structureof the program, who's going to
pay for it, whether it's goingto be the employees, the
employers, taxpayers, and who'sgoing to be covered and how so
(25:33):
it's I think there's anagreement that paid leave is
important and that that folksneed it and that it has
benefits. I think the challengeis getting lawmakers to agree on
the funding and design so theycan move it forward to be to be
voted on. I think it's achallenge because almost all of
the states surrounding the stateof Pennsylvania do have a paid
(25:55):
leave program. New Jersey,Delaware, New York, Maryland,
have all passed policies. And Ithink the state in order to
remain competitive and not losehigh quality workers to those
states, we see it as animportant policy that needs to
be passed. From thatperspective, as well as you know
the need to support people.
Nancy Barrow (26:14):
What would you like people listening to this
podcast? To take away from thisDrexel study Making the Case for
Paid Family Leave.
Natalie Shaak (26:23):
I think the big takeaway is that like caregiving
leave or family leave, it's notjust like a perk or a benefit. I
think it needs to be like a partof our basic infrastructure as a
country. We need, we need thisto be a healthy and productive
society. It needs to beessential, not just like an
added bonus. We need to beadvocating for this at the state
(26:47):
and federal levels. But I alsodo think, like I said, we we
need to be expecting it frombusinesses too. Like, yes, we
can have the state and federalpolicies, but we can also want
the places where we work to beproviding it and adopting their
own policies too, that they can,like I said, go above and beyond
and provide even more than just,like, we don't have to just do
(27:07):
the bare minimum of the 12weeks. You know, we can move
towards what other countries aredoing to make it more family
friendly. And I think that's theother piece of it. Is this paid
leave is just one piece of whatit means to be family friendly.
We have parents, we havecaregivers, we have families
that that they need lots ofthings. They need lots of
(27:28):
supports. This is like the firststep in those supports. They
need paid time off. They needsick time. They need flexible
work schedules and flexible worklocations, affordable child care
and nutrition programs, youknow, affordable food and things
like that. They all kind of worktogether. And in our country, a
(27:48):
lot of these programs are sopatchwork and they don't
connect. So what we really needis for like, to think about
building healthier families andfamily friendly workplaces and a
family friendly friendlier likesociety. And to do that like
this is a piece, but we need allthe pieces to come together to
really do that, because I thinkonce we do that, we're going to
be stronger communities,stronger economy, and just
(28:12):
healthier in general. And Ithink that's the ultimate bottom
line of what we're looking for,is for us all to be more
connected and healthier. A stepin the right direction right!
Nancy Barrow (28:21):
Step in the right direction Natalie, absolutetly!
I want to thank you so much,Natalie Shaak for joining us on
The Paid Leave Podcast. Natalieis the Associate Director of
communication and Administrationat the Center for Hunger Free
Communities at the DornsifeSchool of Public Health at
Drexel University. Thank you somuch for all that information
that was amazing. It really, wasreally wonderful talking to you.
Natalie Shaak (28:44):
Thank you so much!
Nancy Barrow (28:45):
For more information or to apply for
benefits, please go toctpaidleave.org This has been
another edition of The PaidLeave Podcast. Please like and
subscribe, so you'll be notifiedabout new podcasts that become
available. Connecticut PaidLeave is a public act with a
personal purpose. I'm NancyBarrow, and thanks for
(29:06):
listening.
Hello Connecticut, and welcome to The Paid Leave
Podcast. The title basicallysays it all. I'm Nancy Barrow,
and I will be delving into thisnew state program and how it can
help you and your family. Thispodcast will give you
information you should knowabout Connecticut Paid Leave and
maybe just a little bit more.
Connecticut Paid Leave bringspeace of mind to your home,
(00:22):
family and workplace. Welcome toThe Paid Leave Podcast.
The need for a national paidleave program still exists.
However, it remains elusive.
Drexel University inPhiladelphia has done a study
called Making The Case for PaidFamily Leave. It's a study aimed
at showing the benefits oftaking time off for your own
(00:44):
serious health condition or thatof a loved one, as well as
taking pregnancy and bondingleave when adding to your
family. Here to talk about thisis Natalie Shaak. She is the
Associate Director ofCommunications and
Administration at the Center forHunger Free communities at the
Dornsife School of Public Healthat Drexel University. And
welcome to The Paid leavePodcast. Natalie.
Natalie Shaak (01:06):
Hi.
Nancy Barrow (01:07):
I'm really looking forward to having this
conversation with you about thisstudy.
Natalie Shaak (01:11):
I'm really excited to talk about it.
Nancy Barrow (01:13):
So how did you gather the information for The
Making the Case for Paid FamilyLeave?
Natalie Shaak (01:18):
Yeah, so it was a multi disciplinary group of
folks from our staffCoordinating Committee across
the Dornsife School of PublicHealth. And we really just came
together. And we started bywriting down all the big
questions we had about paidfamily leave. How does it impact
health? What does it do forkids? What does it do for
parents? How does it impactbusinesses? Kind of all the
(01:39):
things that we wanted to know,and then kind of listed some of
the common arguments that wehear, both for and against it.
It was really important for meto look at both the benefits and
challenges of paid leave,because, of course, you know, if
it was all really just great andeasy to do, we would be doing it
already, like it would just haveprograms everywhere, and there
(01:59):
wouldn't be a challenge tohaving paid leave everywhere.
Then what we essentially did iswe did a large literature
review. Our team combed throughall the scientific studies and
evaluations from acrossdifferent fields. We looked at
economics, we looked at publichealth across the United States,
at especially the states thathave implemented mandatory
(02:19):
programs, to see what they'vebeen finding, to see what
happens when people had accessto paid family leave, what
happens when they don't haveaccess to paid family leave, and
then we kind of put it alltogether to see what picture it
painted for us, instead of justrelying on the anecdotes or the
assumptions that we werecommonly hearing in The
(02:40):
arguments either for or againstpaid leave.
Nancy Barrow (02:42):
And did you interview people in the States,
or did you really just go by thescientific stuff that you found?
Natalie Shaak (02:48):
We tried to stick with the scientific research. We
felt like that painted a goodpicture. One of the things we
did want to do also was includesome lived experience. So in the
brief we included some storiesof folks from Philadelphia
talking about their ownexperiences of not having access
to paid family leave and howthat personally impacted them.
We found that the theinteraction between personal,
(03:12):
individual stories and the bigpicture data kind of brings it
home a little bit more, becausewe did want to keep it local,
but also make sure we were doinga larger national picture, so it
wasn't just so minuscule focusedon Pennsylvania or Philadelphia.
Nancy Barrow (03:29):
Let's talk about what you did find out about paid
family leave in the in thestudy, and the impacts that you
found.
Natalie Shaak (03:36):
One of the things that, for me, that was really
interesting was looking at thedifference between paid family
leave and FMLA the FederalMedical Leave Act, which is what
a lot of people think of whenthey think of paid family leave.
I know when we started thestudy, this is also very
personal for me. I was notplanning to have children. It
was not something that was in mymy life goals or plans. So this
(03:58):
was a project that I knew verylittle about so it was important
for me to learn as much aspossible. So I looked a lot into
FMLA, and I was very, kind ofshocked in what I learned about
it. I didn't realize that it wasunpaid and how few people are
actually qualified for this, andthat all it really does is it
(04:19):
guarantees that your job isprotected for up to 12 weeks.
You can take this time off tocare for yourself or care for a
family member, but you're notguaranteed to have any money
come into you unless you happento have paid sick or vacation
time that your employer allowsyou to take during that time.
And it only applies to a littleover half of the employees in
(04:40):
the US, unless states have, youknow, different policies. But
you have to have 50 employees ormore. You have to have been
working at your employer for 12more months or more, and you
have to have worked for over1200 50 hours over the past 12
months. So like I said, like alot of people don't even qualify
for this, which I was kind ofshocked. Find out. And then on
(05:01):
top of that, only, like threequarters of the population even
has access to paid time off orsick time. So okay, you might
have access to FMLA or employer,but you might not have sick
time. So you can take the timeoff, but you're not going to get
paid for it. So it's reallyinteresting to me to even
acknowledge that and think aboutit. So I was like, All right,
(05:22):
this is very interesting. Sowhen we talk about the physical
impacts of of having time off, Imean, obviously giving birth is
a very physically demandingexperience.
Nancy Barrow (05:37):
It is, you know, it is a serious health
condition. That's what we callpregnancy. It is.
Natalie Shaak (05:42):
Exactly like and whether or not you have it
through, you know, vaginal birthor a C section, there is
recovery that is necessary.
There may be more. I try toexplain this, I I did end up in
the process of working on this.
I actually found out I waspregnant and it was unplanned,
so I was like, wow, this is waymore applicable than I thought
(06:05):
it would be. And I ended uphaving a C section, and I
explained that I'm like, this isa major abdominal surgery. Like,
they cut through all your stuff,like, you don't realize how big
of a surgery it is, everything,layers upon layers in your
stomach needs to heal, so that,in and of itself, you need
(06:26):
actual time for the physical toheal. So I think that's really
important from a physicalperspective. And what we found
in a lot of the research is mostparents, most moms, they went
back to work way too fast andway faster than their doctors
encourage them to do so, almosta quarter of women went back
(06:47):
within two weeks, which, if youhave a C section, they don't
even encourage you to pickthings up within that period. I
actually have a friend who worksin the restaurant industry, and
she had a C section, and shewent back in four weeks, and she
was lifting kegs in four weeksafter a C section, and I almost
(07:12):
lost it, yeah, the amount ofdamage that you can physically
do to yourself by going back tooquickly is insurmountable. For
folks who had access to paidleave, they had children had
higher birth weight, they hadless premature births, which is
really interesting, because Iactually think that might be
attributed to stress prior tobirth leading to longer term.
(07:35):
There was lower infant mortalityand less death after birth, and
there was also it was linked tolonger breastfeeding, which has
a lot of positive physicalimpacts on the children as well.
And all of these impacts areseen higher and lower income
families, and those are usuallythe ones who are least likely to
(07:58):
have on have paid time off. So,so all the physical benefits of
paid time off are most likely toimpact people who are lower
income.
Nancy Barrow (08:08):
Yeah, and what about the long term benefits of
paid family leave? Oh, my God,start with children or parents,
or whatever you want to startwith.
Natalie Shaak (08:17):
Yeah, I was pretty shocked by this. I mean,
obviously physically needing torecover. If you don't long term
do that, you can have a lot ofinternal complications. And the
mothers, if they take the timeto recover, they are less likely
to have long term issues withthat. Breastfeeding obviously
leads to, you know, otherpositive outcomes long term,
(08:41):
there's there were lower odds ofpostpartum depression, lower
odds of post postpartumrehospitalization. It reduced.
There was lower rates of obesityand lower issues with high blood
pressure, diabetes, alcohol use,smoking, all of these things
were reduced if folks took moretime off after childbirth. And I
(09:04):
think a lot of that is probablyassociated with the mental
health impact of taking time offand stress, which is awesome,
and I think they we saw theseoutcomes, both for the mother
and also for both parents, um,which I think is associated
again, with with stress.
Nancy Barrow (09:22):
Yeah, well, I will say the one great thing about
Connecticut Paid Leave is we'refinding that 44% of partners are
taking the time off to bond withtheir babies, which I think is
really important when you haveboth, that's even bigger
impacts.
Natalie Shaak (09:40):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that we
found in the study, is that veryfew men are taking time off,
either they don't realize theyhave it, they feel like there's
a stigma against taking it, orthey just don't have the time
off in the same way as women do.
I think postpartum depressionreduced by like 15% when, when
mothers took 12 weeks of of timeoff, versus just eight weeks.
(10:04):
And because of that, obviouslythe impacts of that can be
lifelong. I mean, if you're ifyou're experiencing postpartum
depression, that impacts yourability to have good bonding and
attachment with your child,which can that can be a lifelong
impact on both you and yourchild, and as we know that is
depression and mental health isone of the leading postpartum
(10:27):
mortality causes for women is isrelated to suicide and mental
health related deaths, and we'reseeing a rise in that and and
postpartum deaths in women. So Ithink that that's massively
because of the mental healthrelated issues. There's also
(10:47):
family stress is reduced.
Domestic violence goes down,which is amazing, because
there's less financial stressbetween partners, like I said
using things like drugs andalcohol and smoking, that are
just general coping mechanismsare all really important. I
(11:09):
can't stress enough theimportance of that attachment
piece. And I think that alsogoes back to the benefits for
both parents and the child ishaving that that time to attach
and connect with your child isgoing to be great for the
parents mental health, but alsothe child's ability to learn how
to emotionally regulate and copethemselves and develop good
(11:29):
mental health for the rest oftheir lives.
Nancy Barrow (11:32):
We found, too that it was pretty interesting when
we found that parents maybe hadtheir first child in a state
that they didn't have paidleave. And then they moved to
Connecticut, and they hadanother child, and they were
able to take time off. Thefathers noted that they had
better relationships with thechildren when they would bond a
(11:55):
closer connection. I talked to afather, and he's like, it just
hurts me so much that I didn'thave that with my first child.
You know that it that that firstchild missed that opportunity to
be able to bond with bothparents.
Natalie Shaak (12:08):
They've also found that when the father can
take off more time, they're moreengaged in just general
caretaking, which leads tobetter relationships. And I
would love to see some researchthat that connects men taking
time off for leave and thelength that they take off to
divorce rates later on. BecauseI've been I've been reading a
(12:30):
lot about the division of laborin families after having
children, and that is slowlybecoming one of the number one
reasons that people are gettingdivorced is women taking on all
of the emotional and physicaland home labor. And I think part
of that is because women arehome and figuring it out and
(12:52):
having routines during this thispostpartum period, and if men
are going right back to work,they're not being a part of that
routine. That's there's multiplereasons, but I think that might
be a part of it. And gettingthem a part of the routine right
away, and having them beintegral in the caretaking from
the beginning can help addresssome of those pieces. Because
(13:12):
I've heard a lot of men say,like, what is there for me to do
at this point? You're the onetaking care of the
breastfeeding. I can't do thatfor you, but there's so many
other things you can do andthose beginning stages that can
be helpful, that then can carryon through the rest of that
child's life and through therest of your relationship
together, that can create ahealthy relationship.
Nancy Barrow (13:32):
Yeah, one of the good things about Connecticut
Paid Leave, I find, is that saythe father only takes the first
month off. He can take thoseother two months, anytime during
that first year that the baby'sborn, so that bonding leave can
you know it can come at any timeduring that first year, which
is, which is helpful,
Natalie Shaak (13:52):
Because that would be great. I know my
partner saved a week of of histime for when I went back to
work, right? So that transition,and knowing that it would be a
challenging time for me to goback to work, then he could take
off, and we can, can kind ofstagger that, because I think
that's also, I think, animportant piece of it is we are
(14:14):
a society now that it used to becommunity raising children, and
now we're families and insular,and you're on your own,
essentially. So when there's nottwo people there, or more or
multi generational families, itcan feel very lonely. To be at
home by yourself with a newbornand to not have another person
with you can be verychallenging, very and I think
(14:37):
that's probably why we see somuch postpartum depression, is
you have essentially a potatothat doesn't talk to you, and
you're home by yourself foreight hours like that. You're
not getting the interaction.
It's stressful. It's new,challenging. You're not getting
enough sleep, you're not takingcare of yourself, probably as
well as you should. You don'tget a break. Like that starts to
build and that's not great foranyone's mental health.
Nancy Barrow (15:01):
Oh, that makes total sense. That makes total
sense. Yeah. What about healthequity? What did the Drexel
study find?
Natalie Shaak (15:09):
Yeah, so access.
Well, I think just havingchildren in general obviously
disproportionately impacts womenand their potential earning
later on. But we found that,obviously, lower wage workers,
people of color are tend to bein less likely to have access to
pain leave. I think that's justit's it's an unfortunate piece
(15:34):
that we found is a lot of thesepolicies, they don't apply to
part time workers or gigworkers, or our folks who don't
have the long history in aspecific job. And I think that
is where the challenge comes in.
If you're in an employer like,like, I used to work in the
(15:55):
restaurant industry. My partnerstill works in the restaurant
industry, and it's a very itebbs and flows, and you may not
have consistent employment orconsistent hours, and that can
impact your ability to even beeligible for things like FMLA or
even some some states theirtheir paid leave policies, so
they're less likely to haveaccess to unpaid leave or paid
(16:18):
leave, even in states that offerit.
Nancy Barrow (16:21):
That's one of the things I love about our state,
and that we really do focus on,the fact that we really do want
to hit those part time workers,you know. And like you said,
it's so important, you know,they want to, they want to be
able to get covered, because ifthey're not working and they get
hurt, they're not getting paid.
So we really want to be veryinclusive with with part time
(16:42):
workers.
Natalie Shaak (16:44):
Yeah, one of the things they found out in
California when they rolled outpaid leave is that it the
largest increases they found inpeople taking leave were
actually non college educated,unmarried mothers who may not
have realized they had access tocertain leave so now they did a
really good job in promotingthat the the paid leave program,
(17:06):
and that really increased thoseopportunities. So certain paid
leave programs, if they'rerolled out and it's shared
correctly, can really try tolevel the playing field a little
bit more, because typically thejobs that have access from a
private standpoint, the privateemployers who offer it are
(17:26):
usually employers where you haveto have a college degree or a
certain kind of credential.
Higher wage jobs, you know,they're not usually offering,
you know, six months paid paidleave to entry level workers.
That's usually a benefit that'sseen at higher wage jobs or
something CEOs get, you know,those kind of things. Those are
not, you know, offered to retailworkers or things like that. So
(17:47):
by offering this where it's it'swider availability, it is really
starting to level theopportunities a little bit more
to folks who have nottraditionally gotten that
opportunity.
Nancy Barrow (18:01):
Yeah, we try really hard to do a lot of
outreach, like with thispodcast, we really try to
educate people about who'seligible and how they can get
into the paid leave program, andjust going to our website that
that's how they can find outmore about it, at
ctpaidleave.org. But let's talkabout paid family leave and
business. How does paid leaveaffect workplace culture? How
(18:24):
does it affect businesses?
Natalie Shaak (18:26):
Yeah, this was the the area that I was the most
interested to find out, becausethis is where a lot of the
arguments are made against paidleave is, oh, it's going to be
too costly for the businesses.
They're not going to want to doit. It's going to impact their
productivity. It's so hard whenpeople go out on leave and all
this kind of stuff. So this waswhat I was most interested to
find out. A lot of the impactactually is benefit beneficial.
(18:49):
So it has offering paid leave,and this is from like, a private
perspective, like, if a companyoffers it on their own, it has a
massive impact on culture.
There's a lot of loyalty andconnection to the company if
they offer this as as an addedbenefit. They've also found it's
really great for recruitment andretention of employees. A lot of
(19:14):
surveys and research show thatpeople will seek out employers
who offer that as a benefit andthat is seen as highly desirable
to potential workers. So that'sreally important. It actually
increases productivity, whichactually makes sense, because if
you come back too early andyou're constantly you're not
(19:34):
healed, you're unhealthy, you'restressed out, you're not really
there. And that goes forcaretaking too, because that's
the other thing is, like a lotof these paid leave, they don't
just cover having children. It'scaretaking. If you have, you
know, a child with specialneeds, or a family member that
you're caring for, and you'rejust not really fully there,
because you're you're dealingwith something that's happening
(19:56):
at home, your productivity isgoing to tank, versus if you can
just take. The time off, go dealwith your the situation that you
need to at home and come backwhen things are taken care of,
that's going to be better foreverybody in the workplace. And
that's what they have found. Andthen a lot of folks worry about
small businesses and how it willimpact them. They're like, Oh,
(20:18):
this is only something that bigbusinesses can afford, they
build that into their bottomline. And there was a couple of
studies that we found, and someof them showed there was a
little bit of cost, but thatthey found that long term, it
really didn't increase theircosts too much. And that was
like a large majority. I thinkit was like 80, almost 90% said
(20:39):
it didn't increase their costlong term, but that it actually
balanced out by reducing theirturnover. Because a lot of
times, what they find is that,especially women, after they've
had kids, they are less likelyto stay in the workplace if they
come back too soon, they getburned out, they're working in a
not family friendly workplace,and they're likely to leave, and
(21:02):
then you have to fill, you haveto do a search, you have to fill
their position, and then youhave to retrain somebody that's
really costly, as opposed tokeeping a strong employee and
making an environment that workswell for them. And then, like,
people are going to have kids,like it's going to happen,
they're going to need to need tocare for a person like this
(21:22):
happens, and it's better forbusinesses and organizations to,
you know, have a good program,than to just kind of hope it
doesn't happen. And it's betterto plan ahead for it and have a
process so that when people doneed to go out on leave, it's
better than just be like, Oh no,it happened, and now, like
you're throwing it togetherwilly Nilly.
Nancy Barrow (21:44):
You can take intermittent leave or reduce
schedule. So if you know thatyou're going to be helping
someone Monday through Friday,you can take that reduction. And
it doesn't have to be all atonce. You don't have to take
that lump three months like itleaves it a little bit more
flexible for people, so theydon't think that they have to
quit their job.
Natalie Shaak (22:04):
Yeah, like you never life throws things at you.
You don't know that a familymember isn't going to get
diagnosed with cancer, and youneed to go with them to their
treatments, or you're going tohave a child that has a serious
illness, and you need to go withthem. So it's not always like
you can foresee something like apregnancy, like you know it's
coming, you have right plan forthat and go out on leave, but
(22:24):
some of these are things youdon't necessarily have the time
to plan for that, and it's niceto have some security and know
that your employer is is goingto back you up like that creates
a sense of loyalty and feelingsupported that right now is
really important, especially foryounger generations. I know that
(22:45):
the younger generation ofemployee, of employees, a lot of
them, are not thinking abouthaving kids in this environment,
in this economy, but also theyare feeling a little bit jaded
about the work world, and theyare much more likely to be drawn
to employers that are creatingthis kind of safe environment
that shows that they they'recared for and that they matter,
(23:06):
versus employers who are kind oflike good luck with that.
Nancy Barrow (23:09):
Tell me some of the implications of not having a
national paid leave program.
Natalie Shaak (23:15):
Yeah, so I think by not having a national
program, it kind of leavesthings to be a little bit like
patchwork and inequitable. Ithink it's really interesting to
look at Pennsylvania, forexample. So we will have folks
who live in New Jersey and workin Pennsylvania and vice versa,
and that can be a realchallenge. It can be very
(23:37):
confusing. If someone changesjobs Camden to Philadelphia and
vice versa, they may have accessin one place and not have access
in another place because of thedifferent state policies. And
that can be problematic. It canalso leave folks you know, with
inequitable access, leaving, youknow, folks high and dry if they
(23:57):
lose a job or they need tochange jobs for for some reason,
I think it's really interestingwhen we look at the states that
have passed paid leave policiesversus the states that have not.
And there are some, some, somethemes. And if you look at the
states that have some of thehighest infant and maternal
(24:19):
mortality rates. They also tendto not have paid leave policies.
They also have some of theharshest abortion restrictions,
the lowest minimum wages, thehighest poverty rates. It's
really setting up inequity forwomen. It's, I mean, I hate to
say women, but also, I mean alot of people, but it's really
targeted at women. They're goingto have no choice to have a
(24:41):
child have no support afterthey're born, and then, you
know, they are going to bechallenged to work in a world to
make enough money to take careof that kid. And then those
states also don't have reallygreat public assistance
programs.
Nancy Barrow (24:57):
You're located in Philly, but why doesn't
Pennsylvania have a paid familyleave program yet? And do you
know if there's advocates thatare working on this right now?
Because it took Connecticut along time to get it It took
almost like seven years for forit to pass.
Natalie Shaak (25:12):
Yeah, there's been conversations, and at the
state level, they've been havingconversations in Harrisburg for
quite a few years. Sometimes itgets out of committee. Sometimes
it doesn't, and a lot of theconversations and the hang ups
have been around the structureof the program, who's going to
pay for it, whether it's goingto be the employees, the
employers, taxpayers, and who'sgoing to be covered and how so
(25:33):
it's I think there's anagreement that paid leave is
important and that that folksneed it and that it has
benefits. I think the challengeis getting lawmakers to agree on
the funding and design so theycan move it forward to be to be
voted on. I think it's achallenge because almost all of
the states surrounding the stateof Pennsylvania do have a paid
(25:55):
leave program. New Jersey,Delaware, New York, Maryland,
have all passed policies. And Ithink the state in order to
remain competitive and not losehigh quality workers to those
states, we see it as animportant policy that needs to
be passed. From thatperspective, as well as you know
the need to support people.
Nancy Barrow (26:14):
What would you like people listening to this
podcast? To take away from thisDrexel study Making the Case for
Paid Family Leave.
Natalie Shaak (26:23):
I think the big takeaway is that like caregiving
leave or family leave, it's notjust like a perk or a benefit. I
think it needs to be like a partof our basic infrastructure as a
country. We need, we need thisto be a healthy and productive
society. It needs to beessential, not just like an
added bonus. We need to beadvocating for this at the state
(26:47):
and federal levels. But I alsodo think, like I said, we we
need to be expecting it frombusinesses too. Like, yes, we
can have the state and federalpolicies, but we can also want
the places where we work to beproviding it and adopting their
own policies too, that they can,like I said, go above and beyond
and provide even more than just,like, we don't have to just do
(27:07):
the bare minimum of the 12weeks. You know, we can move
towards what other countries aredoing to make it more family
friendly. And I think that's theother piece of it. Is this paid
leave is just one piece of whatit means to be family friendly.
We have parents, we havecaregivers, we have families
that that they need lots ofthings. They need lots of
(27:28):
supports. This is like the firststep in those supports. They
need paid time off. They needsick time. They need flexible
work schedules and flexible worklocations, affordable child care
and nutrition programs, youknow, affordable food and things
like that. They all kind of worktogether. And in our country, a
(27:48):
lot of these programs are sopatchwork and they don't
connect. So what we really needis for like, to think about
building healthier families andfamily friendly workplaces and a
family friendly friendlier likesociety. And to do that like
this is a piece, but we need allthe pieces to come together to
really do that, because I thinkonce we do that, we're going to
be stronger communities,stronger economy, and just
(28:12):
healthier in general. And Ithink that's the ultimate bottom
line of what we're looking for,is for us all to be more
connected and healthier. A stepin the right direction right!
Nancy Barrow (28:21):
Step in the right direction Natalie, absolutetly!
I want to thank you so much,Natalie Shaak for joining us on
The Paid Leave Podcast. Natalieis the Associate Director of
communication and Administrationat the Center for Hunger Free
Communities at the DornsifeSchool of Public Health at
Drexel University. Thank you somuch for all that information
that was amazing. It really, wasreally wonderful talking to you.
Natalie Shaak (28:44):
Thank you so much!
Nancy Barrow (28:45):
For more information or to apply for
benefits, please go toctpaidleave.org This has been
another edition of The PaidLeave Podcast. Please like and
subscribe, so you'll be notifiedabout new podcasts that become
available. Connecticut PaidLeave is a public act with a
personal purpose. I'm NancyBarrow, and thanks for
(29:06):
listening.
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