Classic Episode: July 20, 2014 — Ghost Rockets: James Carrion - The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're in the Para Cast, the gold standard of paranormal radio.
And now here's Gene Steinberg. Welcome back to the Para
Cast with Gene and Chris. We have a fascinating episode
this week about a fascinating book written by a fascinating character.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
James carry on. It's called The Rosetta Deception, and we'll
tell you what that means later on. Okay, it's not
Rosetta as in what Apple used to translate code for
old power PC apps. It's not the Rosetta Stone. It's
not the company it sells you kits on how to
learn Spanish or French or something. It's something far more encompassing.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
We'll get to that later.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
So last week, I don't know, Chris if we broke
our spell. We had several really great guests last week.
Oh Phillips presented to me as an expert on conspiracy theories,
and I thought, frankly, you know more about some of
the subjects he dealt with than he did.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
That's my job, Jane.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
But we bring on guests for their expertise, not to
show how smart we are.

Speaker 5 (01:39):
Well yeah again, I've I've always kind of made it
my goal to ask a question of our guests that
they don't know the answer to, and then supply them
the answer with the answer and then have them thank me.
That's every show, that's my goal, so you know I
rarely attain that goal.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
But yeah, old Off, I think you think a little nervous.

Speaker 5 (01:58):
I don't think he's really that experienced with doing shows
such as the Para Cast. I think, you know, the
majority of shows and podcasts out there, this has been
their disbelief and sit back and just kind of let
the guests sort of hold sway over the entire conversation.
Of course, we attempt to ask probing questions, and oftentimes

(02:18):
we do, and well most times, I should say, And
I think a lot of seemed a little hesitant to
really get into some areas. And also it didn't seem
as up to speed as I assumed he would be.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
I mean, he's involved in this organization that puts out
radio shows and everything, so he has to be experienced
with that. He's been on the major shows. But as
you say, a lot of radio shows just bring on
people like that and they pander to their audience and
they let these people say nonsensical things and they don't
probe they don't ask logical questions, take a conclusion to

(02:55):
its ultimate answer where it might lead. I thought, as
I said, that he really had the surface information that
anybody can get reading a few books or going on
the internet. I guess he's done well with that.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
Yeah, well, I was not sure how many books he's read,
but you could tell he definitely had quite a bit
of Internet I think based knowledge. But when you get
into the kinds of subject matters that he's diving into,
you really need to do your homework and you need
to read a lot. And that's a problem I think

(03:30):
that we're seeing every year. I just get a sense
more and more that people are relying too much on
the Internet and not really doing the heavy lifting, the
deep digging into reading the kinds of books and supplemental
material that really give you more of an inside track
and a with and breadth of knowledge that you just

(03:50):
can't find on the Internet.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
With many of these subjects, it doesn't hurt to do
some on site investigation when you have the opportunity, But
even then, you've got to learn what you're doing. You
don't just walk into a place and ask questions. You've
got to know what to ask how to ask it,
and that's not something that you learned very easily. It
requires practice and training to know what you're doing.

Speaker 5 (04:11):
Well, boy, we could do a whole show just on
that subject.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
We've done a few about investigators' kits and stuff like that,
but this is a very important point. Anyway, the show's
out there. Make of it what you will. I don't
think it's our best, but I certainly think we tried
and we gave him a fair chance to present his
point of view. Now, we still have that wacky thread

(04:37):
on the power Cast forums entitled Ryan's Skinner Skinwalker Ranch.
Of course, Ryan was on the show several times talking
about his couple of books on Skinwalker Ranch, and that's
erupted into a major debate in our forums at forum
dot thepowercast dot com.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
Having a hard time keeping up with it. Oh boy.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
You know, sometimes these top fix her threads take on
a life of their own and lots of people get involved,
Surprising people get involved.

Speaker 5 (05:08):
Well, you know, I'm really not sure what to make
of it. I think our new poster dissection Stalker I
think his name is his avatar name is He's brought
up some very interesting points. I think he's pointed out
some very interesting things concerning the possibility of military and

(05:28):
government involvement at the Sherman Ranch or the Skinwalker Ranch,
if you will, and that many of these types of
stories that have been told, you know, either in Hunt
of the Skinwalker of course, the nap and Keller her book,
and Ryan's experiences up there, a lot of these are apocryphal.

(05:50):
They tend to be purely anecdotal in nature. There does
appear on some level to be some sleight of hand
going on. There are some questions about what was going
on at the ranch and in that area prior to
Terry Sherman and Gwen Sherman acquiring the ranch. Of course,

(06:12):
Frank Salisbury, who we had on the show a couple
of years back, insists that there was really nothing going on.
His protegee, Junior Hicks, has made some statements that dissections
Stoker has taken exception to, and he's he's he is
bringing up some good points. I think he's he's badgering
people a little too much. I think he's his tone

(06:36):
lacks the kind of gravitas in respect that most posters
on the Paracast forum use. And you know, I do
have a little bit of an issue with the quality
and method of delivery that he's using. But he is
bringing up some very very salient points, and I think
many of these points I think are worthy of further

(06:59):
investigation and are worthy of some serious consideration.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
I do well.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
I think perhaps, as you say, he could sell it
better if he just calms down, try to be more respectful,
get his points across. I think people will pay more attention,
because you know, if you start attacking somebody, you jump
in on the attack, people get up their hackles, they
get resentful, and that doesn't solve anything. We also were visited,

(07:27):
by the way, by a famous UFO paranormal skeptic, James Oberg.
He dropped in for a couple of messages, and I
like to get him on the show, so we'll see.
I knew him casually years ago, so let's see what happens. Yeah,
that would be fun. James o'burke, you're listening, James, let's
get you on the show. Speaking of someone who is

(07:48):
also taking a skeptical approach to a lot of these
subjects now, James carry On was the former director of
Moufon left under not very pleasant terms, which he described
previous appearance on the show, and it's come up with
this book called the Rosetta Deception, and it goes back
to a program that apparently existed during World War Two

(08:10):
and after involving basically disinformation impacting the Cold War, impacting
Joseph Stalin, who he calls Uncle Joe. Rather interesting, but
it also creates some fascinating possibilities about the early start
of the UFO field. Now, the book does cover ghost rockets,

(08:33):
but it also leaves open lots of possibilities I want
to get into with James when we get him on
the show. And the first is, of course, the fact
that one of the members of this Rosetta group famously
is very well known in intelligence circles, but in civilian life. Now,
I'm not going to mention his name yet, I will

(08:54):
when we get into the episode. In civilian life, he
became part of the investigation into UFOs and you have
to wonder about the implications here. This book is a
bit dry. It's not something that you can read in
one setting. You got to sit back and digest all

(09:14):
the information. Chris and I did it, so we know
we've gone through it. We've read this book from cover
to cover, it has a lot of implications. It's really
only a start.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Some great research.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Though.

Speaker 5 (09:26):
Really he really pulled out all the stuffs when he
gathered together all this information. My hat's off to him.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
An amazing amount of research, and go get a copy
of the book. It's called The Rosetta Deception. You can
get it on Amazon. The author is James carry On
and he's coming up next. So sit back and listen
to this. This is one tremendous piece of work with
Gene and Chris.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
You're in the para cast.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
We'd like to hear from you. If you have a
comment or question about the Paracast, send it to news
at the paracast dot com. That's news at the paracast
dot com. And don't forget to visit our famous Paracast
community forums at forum dot theparacast dot com.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
The book is called The Rosetta Deception. The author is
James carry On. As I say, it's a tremendous piece
of research. A tremendous amount of work went into this book.
But it's not something that is something you just read
like a novel. You got to sit down, read, pay
attention a lot of information. James, welcome back. To the paracasts.

(10:41):
So I think we need to go back in time
to talk about your background first before we get into
this book. Now, before you were a director of Movefon,
you had a military intelligence background, didn't you.

Speaker 6 (10:53):
That's correct, Well, it was a very short time in
the military. I spent four years as a single intelligence
analysts slash Russian linguist during my early twenties. So I
joined the military right out of high school, and for
the four years I was in the Army, I essentially
worked on behalf of the NSA.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
That place, So it's not just a bunch of nerds
and cubicles, not at all.

Speaker 6 (11:19):
And actually we were the military's more the gophers of
the NSA. They're the ones that intercept and gather the
low level intelligence that then get sent back to Fort
Mead where it's all aggregated and analyzed.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Now, you mentioned here being a Russian linguist, so you
speak fluent Russian.

Speaker 6 (11:37):
No, I wouldn't say that. I went to language school
for a year out in Monterey, California. Was a very
intensive language class, and I learned how to read it
and I learned the basics of it. But I definitely
don't call myself fluent.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, you didn't use Rosetta as your language training, not
at all. Okay, So what attracted you to this subject?
Because it's not something that you just do casually. You
had to do a tremendous amount of research to put
this together. What got you involved in this?

Speaker 4 (12:11):
Well?

Speaker 6 (12:11):
You know, actually I find it fairly fascinating the synchronicity
of my whole journey because it actually started when I
was in childhood. When I was I guess around the
age of eleven, I spent a lot of time clipping
newspaper articles out of tabloids about aliens and UFOs, all
these tabloid publications my mom would subscribe to. So it's

(12:35):
ironic in a way that I started off my interests
with the media and how the media covered it. Only
too much later, as I show in the book that
the intelligence agency use agencies use the same media to
push out their deception.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Okay, So where did you first see evidence that a
deception existed?

Speaker 6 (12:56):
I would have to say during the time I was
in Move On, you know, when I first joined the organization,
just like everybody else, I was very curious. I wanted
to know why the subject was still a mystery, and
the more I started to look into it, the more
I started to research it, and the higher that I
got up in the organization, the more I could see

(13:17):
that there was a large element of human deception involved.
A lot of the cases, for example, that I investigated
personally during Moufon. There was no paranormal there was no
extraterrestrial aspect to a lot of these cases. A lot
of it boiled down to, you know, strange people passing

(13:39):
strange stories and of questionable backgrounds and really trying to
spin the whole rumor mill around the subject.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Can you give us one or two examples of the
strange people doing the spin or the spin control?

Speaker 6 (13:54):
Sure, well, there are quite a few examples. When I
joined Moufon's board, there was a gentleman who claimed that
he was had substantial financial resources. He wanted to help
move On out, and he kept spinning the story to
the move On board how he was going to contribute
vast amounts of money, and it never materialized. The guy,

(14:16):
would you know, say, Okay, I'm going to set up
this sort of project, I'm going to fund at this level.
I'm going to send you this check. Never happened. So
characters like this as sort of just came in, came out,
and you know, they really never panned out, or it
could be. For example, let's take for example, one of
the one of the Moofon conferences back I think it

(14:38):
was in two thousand and seven, where we had this
gentleman who came to the symposium to speak and he
actually had this very elaborate tale of how he was
a sheriff's deputy for a famous in an area where
they had a famous UFO case and he wrote this

(14:59):
elaborate investigation that he did and it all turned out
to be just complete lies. So we get a lot
of these strange characters that just pop into the to
the UFO field. They make these grandiose claims and none
of which really pans out.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
And sometimes they just up and disappear, don't they exactly.

Speaker 6 (15:17):
We never hear from them again, We never see from them,
see them again.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
All right, Now, that's as fascinating. This is really fascinating
how this works. Would you care to name the person
who was at that Mofon conference?

Speaker 6 (15:30):
You know, actually I don't really want to because I
think after I left Moufon. I'll be honest, I really
try to distance myself as much as possible from the
UFO field, because what I found is that a lot
of the infighting that happens within euphology of people pointing
fingers and basically calling each other names, and my evidence

(15:54):
is more important than your evidence or this person's you know,
spinning a story and in line. But I'm telling the truth.
All of this infighting, all it really does is it
just creates and muddies the water even more than they
already are.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
So realizes any conger exactly.

Speaker 6 (16:10):
It's all about dividing concer. So I really, when I
left MUFON, I thought, you know what, I really this
is not going to be an issue of persona. It's
not going to be about people. It's really going to
be about evidence. What can I do and what can
I dig up and what can I research that's pure
evidence that has nothing to do with eyewitness testimony, that
has nothing to do with purported claims that can't be substantiated.

(16:32):
I really wanted to go out there and document in
a very methodical and thorough way the actual research that
I did. It has nothing to do with people themselves.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
Now, how does this lead us to the Rosetta deception.

Speaker 6 (16:45):
Well this is you know. Actually I started off wanting
to write a book about the early days of UFOs
in nineteen forty seven, specifically around Maury Island, around Kenneth Arnold,
around Roswell, because to me, those are the those three
cases have that all came in such a concentrated period
of time in nineteen forty seven. I have a feeling,

(17:07):
or more than a feeling, I think there's evidence to
show that there is there's government deception. That is a
thread that runs through those three cases. But before I
could get started with that, I said, you know, I
need to go back a little earlier, because of course,
if I come out with a Roswell book, somebody's going
to say, well, how about the ghost rockets of nineteen
forty six, or how about the Pyramids, or how about this?

(17:30):
You know, they always want to point to the evidence
that preceded the modern day UFO era. And I thought,
you know what, it doesn't hurt to go back in
early a year earlier to nineteen forty six and take
a look into that timeframe. And what I found was
is I started digging into that timeframe, I started finding
evidence that simply no one else has bothered to present

(17:52):
or just discarded, and I thought, Okay, this is where
I'm going to start. I'm going to start, you know,
showing precedent. I'm going to start showing that there is
a deception thread that started even before the modern day
UFO era.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Okay, now this is a very complicated story. We're going
to go into it now and then look at the
natural implications where this leads to and how it may
interact with the UFO field in some surprising ways. The
book again is called The Rosetta Deception from James carry
On and you get a copy over at Amazon. We've
got a link over at the para Cast forums and

(18:28):
on our site, so if you click on that link,
we get you know, one send commission or something like that.
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (18:35):
With Gene and Chris, you're in the perro Cast.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
This is Leslie Kane, and I'm with the Coalition for
Freedom of Information, and you are listening to the Paracast.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Okay, this is an involves story, folks. He's looking for
maybe something a specific fact James carry On or something
that maybe involved with government deception and its interaction with
these early UFO cases. Ghost rockets Roswell, Kenneth Arnold, how
does that all interrect? And I gather here from reading

(19:20):
the book James, this stuff is out there for the
most part. It just took someone like you to think
of the natural implications and put it all together.

Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (19:30):
I think what it really takes is not ignoring evidence.
I think that in the UFO field, even those folks
that are considered the most notable and gifted researchers, they
have a tendency to ignore evidence. Let's take, for example,
the alleged La raid that happened I think it was
nineteen forty two, where you know a lot of uphologists

(19:54):
will point back to that and say, oh, there was
an early UFO even before Kenneth Arnold happened, But they
completely ignore that just a few days before that air raid,
and before we started bombarding this guy with projectiles because
we thought something was flying over during during the Warriors,
just two days before that, there were submarines, Japanese submarines

(20:14):
that surfaced off the coast of California and shelled the harbor.
So they tend to ignore that because what they want
to not show is that there was a reason why
these people that were sitting behind these guns, these these
air defense guns. Their nerves were so frayed they already
felt like there was going to be an imminent evasion

(20:36):
of the homeland based on these two submarines that popped
up and started shelling in California. Of course, they were
going to shoot anything that they perceived was flying over.
So that that kind of ignoring the circumstances around it,
the more mundane aspect of things, and focusing on the
sensational and on the extraordinary is what really sort of

(20:57):
irked me as a researcher. So I thought, you know,
I really need to focus on down to earth terrestrial
explanation for some of these things that were happening. And
as I started digging, for example, into the ghost rockets,
I could see just a fact after fact that's been
completely ignored by even the most prominent ghost rocket researchers
out there.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
Well, that leads me to a question. Micah Hanks just.

Speaker 5 (21:19):
Released a book about a year year and a half
ago that covers the ghost rockets, and I was actually
kind of slack jawed at some of the information that
you were able to come up with that I don't
recall seeing in Micah's book in terms of ghost rockets
being reported down in the Mediterranean areas, I think around Yugoslavia,

(21:40):
Italy and other places.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
This I was not aware of one thing that.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
I feel that we should actually even take a step
further back and look at the whole phenomenon of the
food fighters. Where do you come down on what was
going on with the food fighters and what kind of
technology was being developed by the Nazis at the time
that we could pin those objects that were being seen
by flight creups from both sides of the conflict. Where

(22:09):
do you come down on the whole food fighter ministry?

Speaker 3 (22:11):
You know?

Speaker 6 (22:12):
I wish I could actually offer some words of wisdom
on that, but I really can't because I really haven't
studied enough about the food fighters or examine any of
the hard evidence that surrounds it. And so I have
to say that my knowledge of the food fighters in
the World War two era is fairly limited. So I
really don't want to offer an opinion on that that
I really can substantiate.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
So basically, the evidence that you came across you put together,
didn't go into the food fighters. They went into the
ghost rockets.

Speaker 6 (22:40):
Correct. The book starts in nineteen forty six in the
post war era.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Now I understand here I got the Rosetta is the
name you gave to this group of people who were
involved in this.

Speaker 6 (22:55):
Correct and the reason I gave it Rosetta. You'll have
to get to the end of the book to really
understand why. But it has to do with my feeling
is that the deception operation that took place that involved
the ghost rockets, what it really broke down broke down
to in terms of motivation, was we wanted I would

(23:17):
say when we say when I say we, I mean
the Allies, the British and the Americans. They really wanted
to break the Russian code, the Russian diplomatic code, the
same way that we broke the German code during the
war and the Japanese code during the war. That was
the main reason behind this group was they were interested
in breaking the code and understanding what Joseph Stalin was

(23:40):
up to, what he was thinking. And the way they
would do that is they would they would plant information
in newspapers that they knew the Russians would be very
interested in. And when I talk about newspapers, I mean
newspapers here in the United States, And that would cause
these Russians to then take some of these news paper
articles and encode them in the code we were trying

(24:03):
to break and transmit them back to Moscow, and we
were actually collecting, you know, we were siphoning all of
that encrypted communication up through some relationships we had with
the telegraph companies, and then we were able to sort
of reverse engineer the code because we had, essentially, through

(24:24):
i was a press manipulation and media manipulation, had planted
the text we wanted them to send back in the
first place. So in cryptography, again this is a very
complex subject to try to cover in such a short
period of time. But in cryptography this is called a
chosen plane text attack. You effectively, you're the person who

(24:46):
wants to break a code, but you cause your enemy
to gather information that you've already planted, and you know
what that information is, hoping that they will encrypt it.
And then you turn around and you know what the
plain text is because you're the one that planted it,
and you have the encrypted communication from your enemy, and
with those two you can back engineer it exactly. Now,

(25:09):
the way this worked, it's fairly complex. It actually surrounds
a project called the Venona Project and the way that
the Russians had encrypted their communication. It really boiled down
to trying to pick out of this encrypted text the
low hanging fruit first, and what this low hanging fruit

(25:31):
happened to be were anglicized names in the in the encryption,
So it could be, for example that you know, let's
say that the Allies planted a media article that said
that President Truman had fallen deathly ill and he's been
taken to Bethesda Hospital. Well, at that point, the Russians
could take information and take it down their local telegraph office,

(25:55):
encrypt it and send it back. But in order to
put the name Truman in their text, they have a
way to do that other than so effectively. Because they
didn't have a way to encrypt the word Truman, because
it was an anglicized name, it was using Latin characters.
They would have to break it up into its individual
letter form tru m an, and there was a special

(26:18):
way they would do that within their encrypted communication. That
would be the first thing to stick out when you're
trying to decrypt it. So effectively, the Americans and the
British were reverse engineering the Russian code in the same
way that the French reverse engineered hieroglyphics using the Rosetta
Stone because they would first attack the hieroglyphics by looking

(26:43):
at the cartouche characters in the Rosetta Stone, which basically
was a royal name. So they would focus on that, saying, Okay,
this is obviously a royal name. If we can figure
out what this royal name is, then that gives us
some clue to what the rest of the text is.
So that's basically where where the term Rosaa came from,
because we were trying to break the Soviet diplomatic code

(27:05):
in the same way that hieroglyphics were broken by Napoleon's folks.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Now I understand here in the early days of the
Cold War, the Russians had sent spies to this country
infiltrated here. And when you wrote about that, I was
thinking about a TV show that you are properly familiar
with on the FX network called The Americans. Indeed, it's
actually one of my favorite shows, so I can't recommend

(27:30):
it highly enough. It's called The Americans on the FX.

Speaker 6 (27:33):
Network, one of my favorite shows.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
So they take two people were Russian and they turned
them into faux Americans, and they actually get married, they
have kids, and they have a normal life. They run
a travel agency and by night they are Soviet spies.
They kill people, they do various projects. Meantime, they live

(27:57):
in the same neighborhood across the street from the f
b I agent, which makes for some interesting stories. It's
a fascinating show. I think it's on hiatus now, but
when it comes back to the Americans watch it. But
you get a sense here that this is based on
the reality, and that show takes place in the eighties.
But imagine in the forties and fifties, the Russians are

(28:17):
sending spies here and we want to find out who
they are. James carry On wants to find out. I
guess with Gene and Crisirian.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
Liberick cast.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
This is the skirts of and the author of USO Mysteries,
and you're listening to the paracast.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
So we're painting the picture after World War Two where
the Americans are engaged in decoding the Russian messages. Now, parenthetically,
I think here that you have the telegraph companies receiving this,
communicating with the government, and now you think of the
current controversy with the NSA getting information about phone calls

(29:10):
from the telecom companies. Is it any different, not at all.

Speaker 6 (29:14):
I think what you'll see in the book is that
the abuses that first happened of basically backing up large
amounts of information for national security reasons but that include
private communications from American citizens was not something new that
happened during the modern day era. This goes way back
to the nineteen forties, even during the war, and before

(29:37):
we even had a censorship code in place because of
wartime censorship, and in fact, one of the three telegraph companies, RCA,
was voluntarily taking all this information from I think was
like nineteen forty three, and they were voluntarily giving it
to the predecessor of the NSA so they could try

(30:00):
to break the Russian code during the war. And it
just so turns out that the president of RCA was
David Sarnoff, who figures heavily into the whole ghost rocket controversy.
If you've done any research about ghost rockets the ghost
rocket era, you know that Jimmy Doolittle, General Jimmy doo Little,
along with David Sarnoff, had allegedly went to Sweden to

(30:23):
confer about the ghost rockets with the local authorities because
they were interested in knowing what they were, and in
fact they already knew what they were. They were part
and parcel of this deception. And you can see again
through this precedence of David Sarnoff's very early on relationship
with the intelligence agencies in the US that he was

(30:44):
very much involved here.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
This is nothing unusual. We've learned that a lot of
famous people were involved with some sort of intelligence activities
during World War Two.

Speaker 6 (30:54):
Absolutely, the actor Douglas Fairbanks was very much involved during
the war. He actually was the guy who proposed the
beach jumper units. And if your listeners don't know what
the beach jumpers were, they were a unit that was
formed during World War Two explicitly to deceive the enemy

(31:14):
by basically they were simulating large military forces. So this
was part of wartime deception. So let's say, for example,
we were trying to land on a certain beach. What
we would do is we would deploy our troops on ships,
but then on another beach nearby, we would send him
these beach jumper units that would simulate the landing of

(31:37):
large number of troops, when in fact we may only
be a few boats with some sound devices, and while
the enemy was rushing over to this other shore to
confront these non existent forces, that our real military forces
would land where the enemy was not an attack. So
the beach jumper units were very important during the war
that they did wartime deception. More even more interesting was

(32:00):
the person who was in charge of the beach jumpers
was an admiral by the name of Hewitt, who happened
to be also in charge of the flotilla that was
in Scandinavia and in the Mediterranean during the whole ghost
rocket period. So here we have the guy who was
in charge of deception naval deception during World War two
also showing up coincidentally in the exact time frame and

(32:23):
in the exact location where we have the ghost rocket
activity happening in nineteen forty six.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Now a lot of our listeners who've just joined us
are going to say, ghost rockets, what were they? So
let's encapsulate that to understand where this takes us.

Speaker 6 (32:37):
Sure, So in mid nineteen forty six, starting around May
late May and going into the fall, there were a
large number of reports of these strange missiles that were
missiles that were flying over Scandinavia. First well, first happened
in Scandinavian, then it sort of migrated its way down
to the Mediterranean area. As the populations were reporting this

(33:00):
were being reported in the newspapers, and there was this
great fear that what these missiles were were actually experiments
by Russia with German missile technology. So if you remember,
right after the war, we went in the United States
in Britain and we sort of vacuumed up a bunch
of German scientists, missile scientists, and we brought them back

(33:20):
to America, and that's how we started our whole space program. Well,
the Russians did the same thing. They captured a number
of German missile scientists and hauled them off to Russia.
But what was thought at the time was that these
strange missiles flying over Scandinavia were in fact the Russians
who had, you know, you kept the German scientists in

(33:42):
place in places like Penemunde and other areas around the
Baltic and they were actually testing the latest rocketry and
they were flying them over neutral countries.

Speaker 5 (33:53):
Right and pen on Monday for new listeners, that's the
you know, the location on the Baltic that the V
two rocket technology was perfected and developed, and that figures
prominently in the subterfuge that surrounds the whole wave of
ghost rocket sidings, which correct me if I'm wrong. We're

(34:16):
talking close to one thousand reports, possibly some of the same,
you know, the same siding event. But we're talking you know,
this is not just a few people reporting a few things.
This was a fairly large wave of sidings. I think
you mentioned at one point in the book there was
approximately eight hundred I think reports that were made during

(34:38):
this time period exactly.

Speaker 6 (34:40):
It was a large number of reports. And what some
folks here in the American government couldn't understand. These are
the folks that obviously were not in on the deception,
as well as folks that were part of the American
legation in those Scadinavian countries who were not part of
the deception. They couldn't understand why Russia would be experimenting

(35:01):
with all this brand new technology over a neutral country
where there could be the possibility of a crash and
then the compromise of the technology, when there was obviously
vast areas in Russia where they could have taken the
rockets and experimented with them. So at first they thought
it was it was simply intimidation. The Russians are trying
to intimidate these neutral countries, and then they were trying

(35:23):
to show that they were technologically superior. At the same time,
we were basically, you know, exploding our bombs Bikini a toll.
But even for those folks that were not in on
the deception but in the intelligence community, this simply didn't
add up. Nothing added up for them. And so the
more I look into that, and the more I started

(35:44):
to research that aspect of it, the more I started
to see this threat of deception. And it's very difficult,
I think for folks, both in the general population as
well as in the UFO field to understand that when
deception is perpetrated, it doesn't have to be widespread knowledge.
It starts with a very small group of folks who

(36:04):
keep it very close to their vests, and they involved
very select people to be in on it, and those
that are not in on it are simply deceived them
as well. So you know, it's you know, take for example,
something like Roswell, where you have this all this alleged
witness testimony of military folks coming back years later and saying, hey,
I saw this body on the ground, or I you know,

(36:26):
I saw the secret cargo being loaded in the plane.
If that was in itself a deception operation, and they
were not part and parcel of that deception, they were
simply peripheral to it because they guarded the plane, or
they happen to be in the right place at the
right time, they are as just deceived as anybody else
in the general population.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Now interesting, parenthetically, here is the fact that you mentioned
that even President Truman wasn't aware of what was going
on here.

Speaker 6 (36:50):
Why because, you know, a strategic deception, which is what
this is really really boils down to. And for your
listeners who don't understand strategic deception, let me just sort
of put it in a nutshell and explain what it is.
During World War two, and this actually originated with the British.
The British knew that they were in trouble. They knew
that the Germans out Gundam and outmanned them, and if

(37:12):
they really wanted to win this war, they're going to
have to do it through something other than military might.
So they were the ones that actually championed and originated
a lot of the deception operations that happened during World
War Two, and they got it down to such an
art that they were able to basically defeat the enemy
with an inferior force. And so this is what it's

(37:34):
called strategic deception today. It's when at a national level
you were choosing to use all of the black arts
tools of deception for strategic goals. And back in nineteen
forty six, which is right after the war, and we
are very war weary at the time, when the prospect
of a new war, hot war emerging because of how

(37:56):
belligerent the Russians were at the time appear, we thought,
you know what, We're not gonna We're going to actually
employ all of these techniques that we learned during the
war in peacetime because we're trying to avoid a hot war.
And this is where the Cold War originated.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
And the British were also responsible for some tactical deception,
like painting ships with camouflage so that they would blend
in with the background so U boats it would have
a harder time picking them up. I mean, they really
got it down to a fine art, creating whole you know,
paper mache armies, like being staged for an invasion for instance, that.

Speaker 4 (38:33):
Were all just hollow.

Speaker 5 (38:35):
They basically were not real tanks, real ships, that sort
of thing, so they were pretty far ahead of the curve.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
In this regard we have James carry On. The book
is called The Rosette Head Deception. And as you see, folks,
we developed disinformation misdirection to a fine science. With Gene
and Chris in the Perro cast, we want to ask
about in the moment, James Carrion joins us, I'm Jeene
Steinberger in the Tech Night Outlive.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Welcome back to the Para Cast, the gold standard of
paranormal radio. And now here's Jane Steinberg.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I'm the Para cast with Gene and Chris. We have
James carry On, author of The Rosetta Deception. So Chris
was talking about some of the things being done in
World War Two, would you amplify that, James.

Speaker 6 (39:47):
Absolutely, so. Yeah, there were a number of things that
the British first did and then the Americans learned to do.
It started off with just rumor spreading, but then there
were some very physical aspects to it. For example, they
would have these rubber inflated tanks and airplanes so they

(40:07):
could simulate equipment on the ground, on these large airfields
or in defensive positions in the desert, and they were
just basically rubber dummies. They even got it to the
point where they could drop out these miniature parachuters, and
so from the enemy's perspective, they couldn't tell the size
of objects descending from the sky, so they saw this

(40:30):
whole swarm of parachutes coming down. They thought it was
basically a whole airborne force coming down. And essentially it
was just these small dummies that were on small parachutes.
And they even had sound effects to them, so that.

Speaker 4 (40:43):
When they hit the gun fires, I love that.

Speaker 6 (40:45):
Gunfire, and you name it. They had it to this
very very exact science, and it was very effective.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
All Right, this is getting more and more fascinating by
the moment. Let's go back to the ghost rockets. Now,
the ghost rockets. I got the impression here is that
we believed they were the Russians, but Uncle Joe Joseph
Stalin believed they were American developments or German developments. Everybody
was fooled.

Speaker 6 (41:10):
They actually I believe you know, again, I'm not privy
to what the Russians thought back then, but I believe
they thought they were British in origin. I think they
thought that the British works experimenting with these rockets, and
then we're trying to put the blame on them.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
So the pot calling the kettle black.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
So basically here we fooled everybody with this stuff or
the various organizations involved. It was not just the Americans,
it was the British working together. And you mentioned the
book in one passage that a couple of the agents
who were used by Ian Fleming to create James Bond
were involved.

Speaker 6 (41:49):
Absolutely. So there were two main characters in the book.
One his last name is Dunderdale. He was a British
in British Intelligence. He has had a long history a
very productive work in the British Intelligence Agency going all
the way back to UH being the ones who provided

(42:10):
to the to the to the to the British UH
some captured Enigma machines.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
UH.

Speaker 6 (42:16):
He worked very closely with the French and he was
one of the characters that Fleming based his James Bond
character on. The other one was William Stevenson, and he
actually plays a more prominent role in the book because
it was his organization known as British Security coordination out
of New York City that actually documented in a book

(42:39):
all of the different black art, black arts methods they
used during the war, from everything from manipulation of the
media to rumor spreading to you know outright uh, you know,
using agents to to entice other certain men, because they
were using a lot of female agents, so they use

(43:00):
sex as a tool to do in all kinds of
very interesting and nasty things that you would expect from
a modern day CIA. In fact, William Stevenson was the
one that encouraged the formation of the OSS and it
was a lot of his techniques that he fine tune
in his organization that influenced in a large way how

(43:21):
the early intelligence American intelligence organizations started to do their
jobs and you know, even influencing the modern day CIA.

Speaker 5 (43:29):
Well, you know that brings up a very interesting a
sizable chunk of your book is spent on looking at
the machinations that were occurring prior to the nineteen forty
seven you know, establishment of you know what is now
I guess referred to as the American Intelligence Complex. And

(43:51):
I find it really fascinating going through and seeing how
different groups were jockeying for power and for influence prior to,
you know, the dissolving of the OSS and the creation
of the CIA, and what we now know is the
modern intelligence apparatus in this country. Why don't you give
us a kind of a thumbnail sketch on some of

(44:13):
the ins and outs that were going on and how
certain groups were jocking for power.

Speaker 6 (44:19):
Sure, so, right after World War Two, Truman decided to
dissolve a few of the wartime agencies, and one of
them happened to be the OSS. So he called for
the disbandment of the OSS, which was essentially our intelligence
agency during the war. But there were, of course the
intelligence divisions of the various military agencies as well. So

(44:40):
there were all these groups in Washington and they're all thinking, hm,
you know, how can I get my agency to become
the foremost intelligence organization in the United States. So, you know,
we have the military intelligence organizations like Naval Intelligence and
Military Intelligence Division all jockeying for position. Of course, the
Air Force hadn't informed at that point. It wasn't formed

(45:01):
until nineteen forty seven. But then you have remnants of
the OSS that were also very interested in maintaining a
piece of the pie. So what ended up happening is
that before the formation of the Central Intelligence Agency in
nineteen forty seven, there was essentially a stewardship group that
consisted of what was called the National Intelligence Authority and

(45:24):
the Central Intelligence Group. So the CIG, the Central Intelligence Group,
was the predecessor organization to the CIA, and it sort
of became the steward for intelligence operations. But during that
whole period from nineteen you know, when the war ended,
all the way until the CIA was formally started up,
there was a lot of jocking for position from among

(45:45):
all aspects of of American intelligence to try to figure
out how they can come out on top.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
I also notice here is what always happens is you
have different agencies who are probably vying with one another
to gain control.

Speaker 6 (46:01):
Absolutely, there was there was an absolutely, absolutely a lot
of collusion that was going on, and there were some
some major figureheads that surrounded that, one of them.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
Like JEdgar Hoover trying to extend his influence in power.

Speaker 6 (46:15):
Absolutely, Jaegar Hoover was there, you know all, you know
the whole time. You know, obviously he had formed the
FBI much early on. He was very active in domestic security.
Obviously during the War. But one of the things that
a lot of folks don't know is that during World
War Two, the FBI also extended their fiefdom all the
way down to the Central America South America, so they

(46:36):
were responsible for intelligence gathering outside of the United States
in the South American countries. And when the Central Intelligence
Group came into being and subsequently the CIA General Vandenberg said,
you know what, we're going to wrestle that away from
from Jaegar Hoover managed to convince the President of that
and ended up, you know, basically taking over all of

(46:58):
the intelligence operations in South America away from the FBI,
and Jaeger Hoover, being the very cantankerous and very strong
willed person that he was and a very ill tempered
when his FBI agents left South America, it was basically
a burn operation. They said, we're not going to give

(47:21):
the Central Intelligence Group any of our contacts, We're not
going to keep any of our records in place. We're
taking it all out and let them start from scratch.
So rather than be a cooperative operation, it became a
very antagonistic operation.

Speaker 5 (47:35):
Well, I'd be all mean and cantankerous too if I
was a cross dresser in my private life and not
wanting anybody to find that out.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
And so you know, you know, you got to hand
it to him.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
He really did exert a lot of power and influence
and had quite a dossier on public figures during that
time period and later.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Absolutely, this whole thing is they become a fascinating adventure.
Let's go back briefly to the ghost rockets. We're going
to have to break in about a minute. And that
is all right. You had all these reports of these
things in the sky forgetting what they were interpreted to be.
Was it all just people reporting fake sightings to the
press misinterpretations what?

Speaker 3 (48:18):
No.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
I don't think so at all. So I think you
have to basically compartmentalize the information that was floating around
back then. There's the information that was showing up in
the media. I'm sure a lot of those sightings were real.
What was behind them is, and I elaborate this in
my book, is that if you can remember again back
to these beach jumper units from World War Two that

(48:40):
were trying to convince the enemy that they were a
large invasion force. If they could convince in more time
an enemy unit to believe that they're being attacked when
they weren't. You could very easily convince during peacetime that
there were missiles flying around the sky. I remember they
had all kinds of paraphernalia in devices they could use
to simulate that.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Or Saucer's question at Roswell, that's what we want to
ask about in the moment. James Carrion joins us. I'm
Gene Steinberger in the Tech Night out Live.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
We'd like to hear from you. If you have a
comment or question about the Paracast, send it to news
at the paracast dot com. That's news at the paracast
dot com, and don't forget to visit our famous Paracast
community forums at forum dot theparacast dot com.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
We're back at the Paracast. James carry on, as author
of the Rosette had deception with Gene and Chris now
looking at the ghost rockets. So we assume they were
all conventional and they leveraged these reports or did they
generate these reports to create the disinformation campaign.

Speaker 6 (49:52):
I think it could have been a variety of things.
So my feeling is that it was probably a combination
of actual things that were seen blowing up. You know,
it could be very simple deception devices, the same same
type that they used during the war to simulate something
flying overhead. It could have been real missiles. I mean,

(50:13):
we had an arsenal A lot of folks don't know
this of over a thousand missiles that were like the
V one. They were known as the Lune missile and
was basically a carbon copy of the V one rocket.
We had mass manufactured these. We're going to use them
in the against the Japanese during the invasion of the
Japanese homeland, but that was obviated by the dropping of

(50:34):
the atomic bomb.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
So so what do you do with all the all
the loons?

Speaker 6 (50:39):
You launch them somewhere, maybe over Scandinavia, you know. And
I don't think they had to launch a large number
of these. I think it had to be just, you know,
a few here and there, so that that would feed
the whole press rumor mill that was going on at
the time, along with some other very you know, simple
deception devices, along with having you know, your your sources

(51:01):
that were journalists or agents in the media that could
then keep that rumor mill going.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Now, you mentioned that some of the prominent people in
the media were famously connected with intelligence sources getting their
quote unquote scoops.

Speaker 5 (51:17):
Oh.

Speaker 6 (51:17):
Absolutely. It's very well documented that some of the leading
uh I call them tabloid reporters of the day, like
you know, winchel And as well as Drew Pearson, had
very close relationships with the intelligence community. But more importantly
than that, you had a large number of newspapers whose

(51:37):
editors were very had very close ties to the to
the intelligence agency because they were staunch anti communists. You know,
you have it's well documented that the editor of the
New York Times, for example, had had close ties and
Time magazine, And you look at all of these different
folks that were in positions of media power, and they
very much had a working relationship with the folks that

(52:02):
were in the intelligence community at the time, and they
were more than willing to help in pushing whatever message
we want, as long as it was against the reds.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Do we see any of that kind of collusion today
or the media to scattered new work efficiently, No, we.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Don't see any of that today.

Speaker 6 (52:17):
Gene, come on, I would venture that that same relationship continues.
I mean, it's been it's been documented by other folks
that that there was a close relationship between the media
and the CIA after the war into the seventies, and
I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
There has become institutionalized exactly.

Speaker 6 (52:35):
I think it's it's there, it's a live it's it's
very much real.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
You know.

Speaker 5 (52:39):
One thing that really caught me by surprise, James, in
reading the book was the amazing effort that went into
designing self destruct mechanisms that would render any sort of
recovery process moot when teams would be dispatched to try
to recover where witnesses said the rocket went down over there.

(53:03):
These things had actual self destruct mechanisms, at least some
of them, which rendered any sort of gathering of intelligence
from the remains of these craft or objects. I mean,
they literally were destroying the evidence as they hit the ground.

Speaker 6 (53:19):
Sure, and I think you know, a lot of that
is a technology that they find tuned during the war
as part of their deception paraphernalia. I'm sure Again I
talked about the simplistic devices they could have created. You know,
they could have shot a flare overhead and it could
be interpreted as a rocket, or they could have had

(53:40):
some sort of airframe made out of wood and with
paper wings or wooden wings, so they could have dropped
from a large height and let it glide to the
ground with a self destruct mechanism. So there was any
number of creative ways that they could mask what these
devices were.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Let's look into motivations here. So we have these reports
of ghost rockets, So we're spooking the Russians, right, they
think maybe it's something that we're doing, or the British
you're doing. That's one thing, but then we see them
here and we think it's the Russians doing it. So
that kind of helped inflame the Cold War, didn't it?

Speaker 6 (54:14):
Absolutely? In fact, I think if you read the book
from cover to cover, what you're going to come what
you're going to come to the conclusion is that we,
I say, the Americans and the British, we actually fired
the opening salvos of the Cold War.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
So what was the logic behind that?

Speaker 6 (54:29):
Well, I think that we knew, we very much knew
that even while the war was going on, the Russians
weren't exactly our allies, and we got a more grim
picture of how much they were becoming our enemy in
nineteen forty five when we realized how entrenched their espionage
agents were in the United States after a Soviet a

(54:53):
crypto clerk affected in Ottawa, and this triggered the whole
red Scare of that era. And as we have all
these different defectors and these different former of Soviet agents
coming forward and testifying to the extent of activity, we
knew that the Russians were not our friends, at least
the Russian leadership were not our friends. And then if
you remember back when there was the famous speech about

(55:18):
how or I'm sorry about the speech, but when Stalin
came out during his one of his five year Plan
meetings and said that the East and West simply could
not coexist. There was going to be war. It was
inevitable between the forces of capitalism and communism. It was
very much a real fear that another war was headed

(55:41):
our way, that World War three was headed our way.
There was going to be a big clash, large loss
of life, just like during World War Two, and something
had to be done about it.

Speaker 5 (55:50):
So it's like almost like the ghost rocket waves were
actually formulated to preempt any sort of pacification of the
American and Allied populations, uh to to actually get the
levels of fear and suspicion, you know, jacked up and
throw gasoline on that fire to then legitimize whatever, you know,

(56:15):
political stance at the that the Allies would then would
then take as we go into this Cold War period,
and it seems to have worked absolutely.

Speaker 6 (56:25):
I completely agree with your statement there, Chris. It's it
was basically a preemptive action. It was the opening salvo.
It was basically, let's portray uh, you know this uncle
Joe Stellan as the bad guy. In fact, he's such
a bad guy that he's willing to you know, fire
these these missiles over neutral countries. He's belligerent, he's trying

(56:46):
to antagonize us, and he's going to start another war.
So let's let's beat him to the punch. Let's let's
take the propaganda to him.

Speaker 5 (56:54):
Well, let's revisit what to me was very, very intriguing.
You know that comes this whole wave of ghost rockets
that were reported in the northern Mediterranean area. Now, prior
to reading your book, I had no idea that the
ghost rocket phenomenon extended all the way down to the Mediterranean.
Why don't you give our listeners a thumbnail sketch of

(57:17):
the timeframe for these particular sighting reports and also what
the possible motivations might have been.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
And before you do that, let me tell you we
have about twenty seconds left, so maybe we should hold
that answer more information about the ghost rockets, and we're
going to want to ask James about some of the
implications through early UFO events other than the ghost rockets.
After the book is the Rosetta Deception. James carry On

(57:43):
is the author. We'll also bring up some of your
questions from our forums at forum dotorpowercast dot com with
Gene and Chris.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
You're in the pyrot cast.

Speaker 6 (58:02):
Hi, this is Don Ecker and you are tuned into.

Speaker 4 (58:06):
The Para cast.

Speaker 6 (58:07):
Let me tell you what you're going to hear Steph
here that you probably won't hear anywhere else.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
Hear that George snoring on.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
The Para cast with Gen and Chris. We're talking with
James carry On. The book is the Rosetta Deception, and
we're going back and forth on ghost rockets. So is
there any more we can talk about there before we
go on to other possible events that may have become
implicated in the UFO phenomenon.

Speaker 6 (58:35):
James, Well, the ghost rocket phenomena started off in northern
Europe and Scandinavia, this was the summer of nineteen forty six,
but then it migrated down to the south to the
Mediterranean area, when you know, there were folks in Greece, Turkey,
and Portugal all reporting rockets there as well. And what's
interesting to me is you can see a direct correlation

(58:56):
between where are naval of horses were at I'm talking
about the involved deception units. Were Admiral Hewitt and his
flotilla of ships were in the right place at the
right time when the ghost rockets were flying overhead and
Scandinavia and hid those same ships. We're in the right
place at the right time down in the Mediterranean area

(59:17):
when that was going on in the south. So we
can see a direct correlation between where these you know
what I think were former beach jumper units were that
were perpetrating this deception, where they were positioned at the
time that all this activity was happening.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Okay, Now the logical question then is we created this
parent sighting of strange things in the sky. Does any
of that relate to the next topic, which of course
is UFO sightings. What about Kenneth Arnold did he see
something or just some kind of test aircraft.

Speaker 6 (59:50):
Honestly, I believe that that Kenneth Arnold was manipulated and
used in a future deception operation. When I say future,
I mean in nineteen forty seven, but very well, very
much connected to the early deception operation nineteen forty six.
So in the book, I call it Rosetta phase one,
in Rosetta phase two. Rosetta phase one was what encompasses

(01:00:13):
the book as it is right now. Rosetta phase two
would be more along the lines of what happened during
Maury Island, what happened during Arnold, what happened during Roswell.
That's the subject of a future book. But I believe
it's all connected. I think if you read Arnold's own book,
The Coming of the Saucers, that if you're open minded

(01:00:34):
enough and you pay attention to the evidence that he's presenting,
there's very much, very very much an aspect of Cold
War espionage that you can see that occurs around not
only his sighting, but also around his investigation of Moury Island. Again,
this goes back to the evidence that most ufologists simply ignore.

(01:00:54):
It doesn't make sense to them, It doesn't have an
extraterrestrial connection, so they simply drop it. Let's take for example,
Kenneth Arnold when he was investigating Maury Island. He wanted
to fly there, for example, Tacoma, and he got there
and he didn't have a place to stay, and it
turned out that all the hotels in town were booked,

(01:01:17):
so he started calling around trying to find a room,
and when he got to the Winthrop Hotel, the clerk said, oh,
by the way, mister Arnold, we have your room ready
for you. He never made the reservation. He gets there
and occupies this room he didn't reserve that was under
his name, and that's where he's meeting with some other
characters related to Maury Island, and all of a sudden,

(01:01:38):
his room is allegedly bugged because information is being leaked
to the newspapers from somebody who's allegedly hearing their conversations
in the room. So there's very much a dark aspect
to Maury Island and Kenneth Arnold that most youuthologists will
ignore because they don't understand it. They can't make the connection.
And this is what I think really goes back to

(01:02:00):
trying to understand what deception's all about, because if you
can't fathom or you cannot conceptualize how you can be deceived,
you're simply cannon fodder for these intelligence agencies. And I
think that would largely describe most of the leading researchers
that are in the field of youthology.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Now, in talking about this Rosetta group, you mentioned the
first head of the CIA, Rear, Admiral Roscoe Henry Hillicotter. Now,
when he would turned to civilian life, Folks, you might
remember the name Helencotter, Okay, look him up in your
history books, But look up also the fact that when
he returned to civilian life, he was associated with a

(01:02:43):
friend of his named Major Donald Keho, of course, was
one of the people who promoted and advanced the early
UFO mystery and early UFO research. So hilen Cootter becomes
a member of Ko's organization Nightcap. Now, through the years
we've always said that's weird. But isn't it weird? James?

(01:03:06):
Is there a connection between the fact that Hillan Cotter
was working with Donald Keo?

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Makes perfect sense to me? Jane, Sure do?

Speaker 6 (01:03:15):
I think definitely there's a connection here, And if in
the book, I describe some of the activities that surround
Hill and Cotter for a couple of reasons. One, you know,
in early nineteen forty six, even before the ghost rockets
started flying over northern Europe, Hillan Cootter was in charge
of the USS Missouri and he was given a very
interesting task. He was to bring back to Turkey the

(01:03:38):
body of the Turkish ambassador, some gentleman who passed away
that prior year. And they were going to bring the
body back, and this great fanfare that they were, you know,
trying to you know, basically say to the Turks, we
are friends, Look what we're doing for you. What weirly
was about was trying to have a show of force

(01:03:59):
in the media Trainian during the early Cold War, telling
the Russians, hey, stay away from Turkey, stay away from Greece. Uh.
These are folks that were very much allied with Now.
What I find very interesting is that when when when
Hill Andcotter in the USS Missouri was about to enter
the Mediterranean, it turned out that he rendezvous with Admiral

(01:04:20):
Hewitt's ship outside of Gibraltar, and these two ships were
side by side. I think it was like for a
day and even though you know, I have no evidence,
my feeling is that there was something that happened when
those two ships were docked next to each other, and
I think actually what may have been a transfer of
either deception some of the paraphernalia I talked about that

(01:04:41):
triggered the ghost rockets, even some of the Loon missiles.
There was some exchange of cargo. Again, this is very
much hypothetical. I have no evidence to show, but it's
just very curious that right after he would return back
to Northern Europe and the ship that then we started
seeing all this ghost rocket activity happen. So ellen Cotter
was involved in that from from that point of view,

(01:05:02):
But Hillancotter was also and a lot of folks don't
know this. He was the naval attache in France. He
was in Paris, uh you know, even before or right
after the fall of France. Obviously he wasn't there, but
he was very much involved with British intelligence there. He
knew this other character named Dunderdale that I that I

(01:05:23):
said was one of the James Bond models, had a
close relationship with him, and he shows up in all
the right places of all the right times, even to
the point where right after the Rosetta deception took place,
lo and behold, he becomes the favorite person to then
come back to the States and assume the stewardesship of
the of the c i A. He was the first

(01:05:44):
director of the CIA, So there's something going on there
where he fell into favor in the intelligence community where
he could assume such a such an incredible role in
the intelligence community. So I have a feeling that there's
there's definitely a connection there, and connection with UFOs later on,
I think is an extension of that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
All right, now, let me ask you the obvious question.
Here are all the UFO sightings that were not possibly
the result of the Rosetta deception or some sort of
disinformation project. Were they all just conventional objects? Or were
there real UFOs intermixed with all this?

Speaker 6 (01:06:23):
When you say real UFOs, or are you meaning UFOs
of terrestrial origin or extraterrestrial origin.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
Let's just say things that have no conventional explanation. Let's
not go to extraterrestrial at this point, just something that
we can't explain. What's real?

Speaker 6 (01:06:40):
Sure, you know, honestly, I can't tell you, and I'm
not saying that every single UFO siting in nineteen forty
six or nineteen forty seven had to be Rosetta or
our intelligence community, you know who knows there are things
out there in the universe we simply can't explain. There
are mysteries that we can't explain. All I know is

(01:07:01):
that in such a concentrated time frame, we had very
strange things going on that to me fit more a
Cold War intelligence operation than fit any sort of other explanation.
Could there have been other things flying around the atmosphere, Sure,

(01:07:21):
I don't know what they are. I don't know. All
I know is that what I've been able to research
and what I've been able to uncover here shows more
of a terrestrial explanation.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
The book is The Rosetta Deception. James carry On's got
a lot more to tell you, and we'll have some
questions from our listeners coming up. With Geene and Chris.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
You're in Perast.

Speaker 6 (01:07:53):
This is Jerome Clark, author of thefor Encyclopedia and other books.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
You're listening to the paracast.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
So we have the first director of the CIA working
with Nightcap and Donald Keho. We have all these events
that may or may not have some kind of government
disinformation connection. Certainly Maury Island, which we've covered extensively here
in the power cast. Certainly Kenneth Arnold's sighting may have
been something merely conventional, a test aircraft. But you kind

(01:08:32):
of think here, do you think that maybe the UFO
mystery got out of control once these things started, once
these stories were published, it just went to places that
maybe the Rosetta group didn't know.

Speaker 6 (01:08:44):
Oh absolutely, I think it mushroomed out of control, and
then once it did, they really had no way to
contain it. So they sort of been just riding along
this wave of I don't know how would you describe it,
but basically just as public interest exactly. You know, what
would modern Americana be without UFOs or without you know

(01:09:08):
a lot of the of the different things that surround
UFOs from from the media to you know, you know,
abductions and all these things that that's around the whole
field of upology.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Now with abductions. With abductions, I have speculated that some
of the early abductions may have been mind control or
drug experiments.

Speaker 6 (01:09:29):
I would say that may very well be so I
think that it may be part of this mushrooming. This
this inability to contain what started off as a as
a as a myth that was created by by mundane hands.
I think we can actually see that, for example, even
in the ghost rocket period, where I think that there

(01:09:50):
were people in the military actually this is what this
is documented fairly well, but there were people in the
military that may be thought I'm talking about the British
military that thought that there was something extraordinary to these rockets.
Again I'm not saying extraterrestrial, but maybe a technology that
was German very highly advanced, and there was even R. V.

(01:10:10):
Jones has this very well document in his book where
he describes where they recovered some fragments of an alleged
ghost rocket and when they sent it off to this
British institution to be tested. The British scientists came back
very excited, saying, oh, we found elements that were unique,
you know, that don't exist on Earth. And he said, well,
have you tested them to see if they're just regular coal?
And they said, oh, we didn't think about organic material.

(01:10:32):
So they turned around and tested and turned out to
be a regular lump of coal. So we have, you know,
scientists who tended to make these leaps of faith because
they wanted to believe that it was something extraordinary. At
least we see that, for example in the modern day
UFO era, where we have this alleged estimate of the
of the situation that the Air Force created and sent
up the channels to General Vandenberg before it was kicked

(01:10:54):
back down and burned, saying we think these are extra
of extraterrestrial origin. So these are folks again that could
have been in the military at the time, but not
in on whatever deception was going on. And of course
they can make these leaps of faith, in these grand
leaps of fascination. But when it gets up to the
person who was in on the deception, being General van

(01:11:14):
der Berg, he's thinking, gee, this really is out of control.
I better do something about it, and then kicks it
out and says, no, let's take this estimate of the situation.
Let's just burn it because there's really nothing to it.
Of course he knew that. That's well documented in my
book that shows a General Vandenberg White Vandenburg was one
of the key deception planners in the post war era,

(01:11:35):
and that's documented by information I found in the National archives.

Speaker 5 (01:11:38):
Yeah, well, I find it interesting that coal should be
found in the remains of a ghost rocket.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
Maybe it was Santa Claus.

Speaker 5 (01:11:45):
He crashed and burned and some of the coal that
he was going to deliver to bad kids inadvertently got tested.

Speaker 6 (01:11:53):
That's as good as explanation is any there, Chris.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Let's move into another aspect related to this roseta dec Okay,
so we're looking here at these early UFO cases that
seem to have been generated this way. What about Project
blue Book and the earlier agencies that led to Project
blue Book. Were they done deliberate they sign and Project

(01:12:18):
sign Project Grudge. Were they meant to really investigate something
they didn't understand or just part of the deception.

Speaker 6 (01:12:25):
Maybe they weren't part of the deception at all. Maybe
they were just part of the of the of the
fact that it had been had mushroomed out of control.
We have this large public interest, Now what are you
going to do? So you form an agency of folks
that are not in on any of this prior knowledge.
Let them investigate. It does no harm, you know, where
whereas the folks that are in on the deception can
sit back and say, okay, well, let's let's just let

(01:12:46):
it happen. So I don't think they were. It was
really part of the deception.

Speaker 4 (01:12:49):
I think it was part of inadverting.

Speaker 6 (01:12:52):
Yeah, the inadvertent next explosion of interest that happened in
the general population with the subject.

Speaker 4 (01:12:57):
It makes perfect sense to me that that really as
a ring to it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Let me throw another possibility out for you, which actually
occurred to me from reading the book and listening to
you talk now, James, and that is we have the
first set of Project Blue Book. Captain Rupelt, he writes
a book, the Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, becomes a
big seller. Then it comes out with a new edition. Now,
the first book conveyed the feeling that he believed that
UFOs were et. They have a new edition of the book.

(01:13:24):
Three chapters are added, and famously, in the final chapter,
he says, when asked whether he believes in UFOs, if
they're real unusual things or spaceships, he says, I'm positive
they m not. And I thought to myself at the
time that maybe he was pressured. That's the prevailing opinion
that he was pressured by his military higher ups or

(01:13:45):
maybe someone unto him and said listen, Captain Rupelt, you
know this is getting way too far. This is all
based on disinformation on deception, and someone reads them in
on what really happened and he says, so, explain to
your readers you don't believe UFOs are real because they
take you seriously.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
Do you think that could have happened, Well, it very
well could have happened. But I think based on the
on the research are my research. I think that if
you know, as I believe, they start off as a
deception operation, deception operations at this level, but what I
call strategic deception is held very close, very very close.

(01:14:26):
Very small number of people are in on it. So
let's take for example, you know what a lot of
you follows believe in the Majestic Documents and Majestic twelve
and how they've been keeping the UFO secret for years
and years and the big cover up could be But
I don't think it was because of an extraterrestrial crass
or roswell.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
I think it's the deception secret.

Speaker 6 (01:14:47):
Exactly, and they had you have to keep that very
close because you have to think that if this ever
came out to the public, I mean I would be
very one pissed off public citizen if I knew that
the government had been hood wiki me for the last
seventy years, you know, because for whatever reason, it doesn't
really matter. I mean, let's take for example, what happened

(01:15:07):
during the Manhattan Project where they built an entire city
in the Tennessee Valley Authority, and they didn't tell the
Vice President Truman at the time that they had this
project going on. The cover up around that, the secrecy
around that, people could understand because it was wartime. But
one thing they did very intelligently is after they dropped

(01:15:28):
the atomic bombs on Japan, as it came out with
this complete report that said, hey, you know, sorry, we
did this. We had to do it for wartime secrecy reasons.
You know, here's what the atomic bomb is about. Blah
blah blah. They came out and they were honest to
the American public. But this is something that mushroomed out
of control, and they could not come out and be
honest about it early on. It kept getting worse and

(01:15:49):
worse until here we are seventy years later, and you know,
to come out with the truth now that hey, we
you know, we pulled the wool over your eyes and
we were the folks that created this myth to begin with.
I think they see more cons than pros to doing that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:16:04):
Number one, nobody would believe them because it's become such
an entrenched cultural meme that even if they came out
and said, hey, it's been all us everyone, you know
it within the true believer crowd would think that they're
trying to, you know, claim credit for something that everyone
is taken for granted as being et all these decades.

Speaker 6 (01:16:24):
Sure it would be a cover up to the cover
up you know where So it was, you know, basically
what they say, the whole Project Mobile thing was about
around Roswell. You know, we were trying to protect that. So
we came out with the story. You know, the true
believer is not going to believe it. You're exactly right.
Their mind is still made up, their belief systems so

(01:16:45):
well entrenched, they're simply not going to believe it. And
so I think that, you know, the forces that be
out there in the intelligence community, they know that they
know that people would rather believe than than actually understand
the truth around it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
I yes, let's get back to Roswell. Okay, you broached
the subject. Okay, Yes, the R word not just Rosetta,
but Roswell. We have about a minute or so before
we split, so let's just paint the picture and start
going from there. So the first news story says we've
found the flying saucer. The second news story says, oh no,

(01:17:22):
it was just a balloon. And of course this kind
of buries the Roswell case for a number of years
until the late seventies when William Moore and Charles Burletz
and Stan Friedman get involved in researching Roswell, and certainly
this entire mythology erupts that still exists to this very day.

(01:17:43):
But the heart of it. Can we take the second
newspaper story is true and I'll have your answer in
the next segment, or was it just some kind of
secret weapons test or secret aircraft? And they use both
stories as a cover story top it off the map
for once and for all, at least until people started

(01:18:03):
poking into it a few years later. The book is
The Rosetta Deception. I guess we'll call that part one
of the story about this disinformation that leads to UFOs
and other things. James carry On is the author, with
Gene and Chris.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
You're in the PIRH Cast.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Welcome back to the Para Cast, the gold standard of
paranormal radio. And now here's Jane Steinberg.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
Our final four segments of the Para Cast with James
carry On, author of Rosetta Deception. So, James, what was
roswell the first, the second or the third possibility that
it was some kind of test aircraft or something.

Speaker 6 (01:19:04):
I don't think it was a test aircraft at all.
I think it was it was part of a further
futured separate perception operation that happened in nineteen forty seven,
related to the first that happened in nineteen forty six.
If you read my book, you'll find a very interesting
story about an Austrian scientist by the name of Eugene Sanger.
And what this gentleman did is he was working on

(01:19:27):
behalf of the Germans during the war. He had developed
this concept for what he called the America Bomber. And
what this craft was supposed to do was to launch
off a sled track that was a couple miles in length.
It would basically zoom into the atmosphere and then when
it came down back down on a ballistic re entry,
it would bounce off the atmosphere again and have a

(01:19:49):
further afford motion, and it could keep having this bounce
effect until it reached its destination, which he envisioned as
being the United States, where he was going to drop
basically what was a dirty bomb and on the American cities.
This was something that was very much believed to be
possible at the time, even though we now know that

(01:20:11):
it probably wouldn't have worked. But not only the Germans
were interested in his research, but the Russians were very
much interested as well, so they actually after the war
got some of his secret reports. Stalin himself was so
enamored of this concept because remember he didn't have the
bomb at the time, he didn't have an atomic capability,
So if he had the ability to bomb American cities

(01:20:33):
with this America bomber, then that was gonna be his
top priority. So he convened a conference in May of
nineteen forty seven. It just so turns out that, you know,
June in nineteen forty seven, we have all of a sudden,
this UFO. Remember back then, it wasn't a UFO, it
was a flying saucer because it was described as skipping

(01:20:54):
over like a stone on water, which is exactly how
the American bomber was described as on the atmosphere. So
it's just to me too convenient that we have, you know,
Stalin super interested in this new futuristic weapon that was
skipped across the atmosphere like a stone skips across water,
and all of a sudden we have stories of a

(01:21:14):
flying saucer that exhibits similar behavior. So I think there's
the tie in to the deception where we are trying
to convince the Russians, Hey, what you want, we have,
and not only do we have it, we're experimenting with it.
And that led, for example, I think to Roswelt led
to more island that was all surrounding trying to convince
the Russians we had something they did not.

Speaker 5 (01:21:35):
Well, that kind of leads us to one of our
listener questions. This one comes from Fedora Chronicles, who posted
his question at forum dotthorparacast dot com. Since we're talking
about Roswell, he asked, tell us about your thoughts on Roswell.

Speaker 4 (01:21:48):
I'm on the fence.

Speaker 5 (01:21:49):
Because I believe the UFO crash could have been a
cover up of a real crash about flying wedge or
wing that the military was testing that was based off
technology taken from Germany during Operation Paperclip, or it was
really an alien spacecraft. He wants to know, first of all,
which theory do you subscribe to? And I think we
kind of know where you're going to go with it.
But what he wants to know is do you think

(01:22:11):
that there's a possibility that some sort of secret technology
got out of control or out of hand and then
they had to cover that up.

Speaker 6 (01:22:20):
I don't believe that at all, and I'll tell you why.
I think that that theory, to me is just complete rubbish.
If let's take for example, what happened. All right, So
we have this alleged crash of this UFO outside of Roswell,
New Mexico, and who blabs to the press it's the
Final Ninth Bomb Group that puts out a press release

(01:22:41):
that on its face is the most ludicrous thing I
have ever heard in my life, because who is the
fible Ninth Group. They're the same folks that drop the
bombs on Japan. They're the same folks that in nineteen
forty six drop the bomb over Bikinia toll. These are
the folks that were of the highest, the most intelligent

(01:23:02):
the folks that had to be highly trusted because we're
dealing with, you know, in the Manhattan Project and all
this atomic weaponry, and they're the folks that are so
well indoctrinated in keeping things secret. It makes no sense
that they're going to put out a press release if
they uncover any technology. That by itself is what actually,
I think, more than anything, led me in this journey

(01:23:22):
to try to understand what surrounded Roswell and Kenneth Arnold
and Morey Island. Because as a person who who's been
in the military, who's had a top secret clearance, you
keep your mouth shut. You don't go out there and
put out a press release if you happen, if something
happened to crash that was of important national security abuse,
you know, you simply don't do that.

Speaker 5 (01:23:43):
I have another question here. This one comes from Bonaventure,
who's been a long time poster at Forum doctor paracast
dot com. He doesn't come out and ask very many questions,
but he came out for you, James, and he wants
to know if you think the UFO mystery is largely
the creation of the military and the security agencies absent
deliberate deception does any evidence remain that points to an

(01:24:07):
extraterrestrial visitation.

Speaker 6 (01:24:08):
Well, I can tell you that my belief is that
what the activity surrounded in nineteen forty six to nineteen
forty seven was, from my point of view, strategic deception operation,
so definitely involving military intelligence agencies. But then we you
know this, that's a very interesting question because this is
where we get into the bucket argument. What I call
the bucket argument is that people that are believers or

(01:24:31):
that truly believe in UFOs and extraterrestrial visitation, they want
to have one bucket of evidence. Everything gets thrown into
this bucket, right from the building of the pyramids to
the food fighters, to ghost rockets, to Roswell to you
name it. It all goes into one large bucket. And
if you try to take anything out of that bucket, well, no, no, no,
you can't, because all the other stuff in the bucket
means it's extraterrestrial or there's you know, there's proof there.

(01:24:55):
And I think that is not the way to approach
the subject at all. I think you have the comp
heartmentalize your research. I think you have to focus on
your research into certain discrete cases and discrete time frames,
and really you can't just pile up the evidence and
say it all makes sense altogether. It simply doesn't. Because
I'll be honest and tell you that I believe that

(01:25:16):
there's life out there in the universe. I think the
possibility of life not being out there, of life not
being out there is absolutely nil. Statistically, there is life
out there on other planets. The question is have they
arrived here either today, in the near past, or in
the very distant past. It's very plausible that we had

(01:25:37):
alien visitation way back whenever, or it could be very
plausible we have alien visitation today. So I'm not saying
that that's not a possibility. I'm not saying that at all.
What I am advocating is that the early days of UFOs,
the modern day UFO era, nineteen forty six, nineteen forty seven,
that timeframe I don't believe was had anything due to

(01:25:59):
do with extra trust visitation.

Speaker 5 (01:26:00):
We have another question from Burnt State, who's one of
our very active posters that formed doctor paracast dot com.
And first of first of all, he compliments you on
your website and all the great newspaper articles that you've
dug up that report on the whole ghost rock of phenomenon.
But he's very interested to know if you've made contact
with UFO Sweden to get access to their many reports

(01:26:23):
and government files pertaining to witness accounts of structured craft
and rockets landing in legs crashing without debris, and he
says that this type of phenomenon continues to this day.
What do you think of their findings and are you
aware of their upcoming documentary on the ghost rock of phenomenon.

Speaker 6 (01:26:41):
I did come across their website and their discussion of
his upcoming documentary, and I have not looked at their archives,
and in fact I addressed it in my book. It's
one of the areas that we'd really like to dig
more into. It's been sort of an obstacle based on
where the archives are at and the fact that I
know absolutely zero Swedish, so there had to be some

(01:27:02):
sort of translator involved. But what I did find out
that I think was very helpful my research was there
was in nineteen forty six one of the ghost rocket
sightings that made the newspapers all over the world had
to do with the alleged collision of a ghost rocket
with a military plane, a Swedish military plane, where three
Swedish flyers died. Now this made the newspapers everywhere, and

(01:27:26):
a lot of eufologists point to it say, oh it
was a real phenomena. Look what happened. There was this collision.
But then what the Swedish researchers from the Swedish UP
organization dug up in government archives is that that crash
of that plane had nothing to do with the ghost rockets.
It was made up so part and parcel of this
deception I'm talking about. So that gave me some confirmation
of that time period. I don't know what goes on

(01:27:49):
today in Sweden and I really can't speculate, but I
do know that back during that timeframe, there's a lot
of eyewitness testimony. There's a lot of alleged testimony around Roswell.
And again this goes back to deception. When you're dealing
with deception, right, the fact that you're deceiving the public
means that the public's going to report what they see,
they're going to be honest about it. That doesn't mean

(01:28:11):
the deception did not occur. It just simply means they're
not part or not on the deception.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
It's The Rosetta Deception, the name of the book. The
guest is James carry On with Gene and Chris. You're
in the parro cast. We'd like to hear from you.
If you have a comment or question about the Paracast,
send it to news at the paracast dot com. That's

(01:28:37):
news at the paracast dot com. And don't forget to
visit our famous paracast community forums at forum dot theparacast
dot com now just parenthetically, and there's a lot of
things to talk about here, James carry On. I mentioned
some of the early abduction cases is possibly being related

(01:28:57):
to tests and mind controller drugs mentioned specifically, and we've
talked about before Barney and Betty Hill, But what about
all those other abductions, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:29:07):
That's it's a real good question, because it's if I
have to say, if anything really struck me as a mystery.
When I was head of Moofon, I really had to
do with the whole abduction phenomena for a couple of reasons.
One there was there's a lot of evidence, you know,
from from the abduction transcription project that Moufon ran, where
we where we basically partnered up with some hypnotherapists and

(01:29:29):
some counselors so that we could record the We could
record transcripts of these alleged abductees while they were being hypnotized,
and I understand that there was some commonality in their stories.
But I had some very close friends that who also
claimed to have been abducted, and they sounded very credible,
and they sounded very sincere. So the experience that the

(01:29:52):
experience itself seems to be based in sincerity. Where it
originates that, I'm not sure. I mean, you mentioned mind control,
you mentioned possible experiments. We know the CIA was very
much involved in that type of experimentation. Some folks believe
it to be of a religious nature, you know, there
are a lot of folks that think it's if you
believe in angels and demonons, that's a demonic activity. So

(01:30:15):
there are a lot of different explanations for it. I
don't have an explanation for it. I don't even have
a terrestrial explanation for it, just because I have done
no research into that area. But I do know that
it's very intriguing.

Speaker 5 (01:30:27):
Chris, you know, reading the Resetted Deception and looking at
the very careful way that deception operations were conceived and enacted.
If you fast forward, you know, sixty years to a
particular character that you had a bit of dealings with
fairly recently, Robert Biglow from big Low Aerospace and the

(01:30:51):
Skinwalker Ranch scenario, and of course the Star program or
fiasco I think might be a better term for it.
Do you think that the intelligence operations have become so
fine tuned that they can literally run roughshot over any
sense of an ET involvement or you know, use that

(01:31:15):
ET involvement scenario as a cover for very real deceptive
practices by the military. All us can walk a ranch
for instance.

Speaker 6 (01:31:25):
Absolutely. You know, I think that the large amount of
mythology that surrounds Area fifty one, for example, you know,
a lot of that I think was originated in the
military as an operation to just cover up what was
really happening in Area fifty one, which was very mundane
in nature. So I think that the intelligence established, the

(01:31:46):
whole intelligence establishment, uses the phenomena, uses the mythology, uses
the subject to cover up any number of mundane operations.
You know, I found that my involvement with Robert Bigelow
and the skin Walker Ranch, the fact that I you know,
I basically paid my own way to go there and
was refuse to entry on the ranch. That lack of

(01:32:08):
transparency tells me that there's something else going on. I'm
sorry this this, this whole subject is so muddied already.
What you don't need is more cover up, more deception,
more op thuscation. And when I started seeing that in
the whole moufon Bass relationship, that's when I started to question,
you know, what's really behind all of that? And I

(01:32:29):
voiced my opinions to the board and all of history
after that, because you know, they went behind my back
and renegotiated that contract. So the bottom line being that,
I think this is very well known. If you think
you can dance with these intelligence agencies and they don't
want you to dance with them, you're never going to dance.

(01:32:50):
The bottom line is there will be a way where
you'll lend on the out up on the outside of that.
So I think there is a very very interesting dance
happening between euthology and the intelligence organizations that have more
to do with what the goals of the intelligence agencies
are than a cover up of extraterrestrial visitation.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
So what about MOUFON in general. Do you think that
organization is a bunch of sincere civilians trying to find
out what's going on or something that's advancing the disinformation.

Speaker 6 (01:33:26):
I don't think you can really label it that easily.
I think there are folks that genuinely have in the organization,
that have a genuine interest in knowing the truth. I
think there are folks in the organization that are very
much true believers, and they discard a lot of evidence
presented to them. I think I'm just I am disillusioned

(01:33:47):
and very much have full out of favor of Moufon,
just from the point of view if they've lost their way.
Their model is the scientific investigation of UFOs, and you
would be hard pressed to find anything that resembles science
in that organization. I think that's reflected in this recent
document early these shows that they're doing on Discovery Channel.
You know, it's it's almost embarrassing to watch to see

(01:34:08):
muf ON actually lower themselves to repeating mythology and repeating
folklore and repeating outrageous allegations and not sticking to what
they should be sticking to, which is pure science.

Speaker 5 (01:34:21):
I was just going to ask you what you thought
of the show Hangar one and using very very tenuous,
sort of pop culture versions of events, like, for instance,
the whole story of Nixon taking Jackie Gleason down to
Florida to show them alien bodies. Well, for the young
person that wants to get involved in uphology really has

(01:34:45):
you know, altruistic you know, motivations to get to the
bottom of this whole thing, you know, kind of the
way I was early on in my life when I
looked at these subjects. I mean, what do you tell
someone like that? How can a the average person who's
getting involved in this for the first time, how can
they separate signal from noise? How can they differentiate between

(01:35:08):
deception and what are obviously real events? I think, I
think that we're dealing with real events on some level. However,
I agree with you there's probably a good chance the
majority of events that people are experiencing have a very
prosaic and mundane explanation. What would you tell a young
person getting involved in this morass of a field.

Speaker 6 (01:35:30):
As a neophyte, Well, you know, I would say, based
on my years of exposure, is don't focus on the signal,
focus on the noise. There's a lot to be learned
from the noise. It's almost you know, I've said this
quite a few times. The absence of evidence is as
telling as the presence of evidence. So if you go

(01:35:50):
into this field with an open mind, you put aside
your beliefs, you really look to see why there's so
much noise surrounding this field. Into the noise, pay attention
to the characters that are in the field, make sure
that you check their sources, make sure you check every
single fact. You better be a fact checker, because if
you're not a fact checker, you're going to be at

(01:36:13):
the recipient end of disinformation, hoaxes, and just being led
down the primrose path that a lot of you follow
just find themselves. So the bottom line is, you know,
go out there with a sincere desire to know truth
and to learn truth, no matter how hurtful that truth
may be, even if it hurts your own beliefs, you know,

(01:36:33):
look for that truth.

Speaker 5 (01:36:34):
Well, the obvious question I think many of our listeners
would want Gene or myself to ask you, is are
there any cases that are truly unknown that you feel
could indicate some sort of presence that is beyond the
capabilities of our own military intelligence operative deception, this sort

(01:36:59):
of that we've been talking about. What are your favorite
truly high strange cases.

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
You'll answer that on the next segment. I hope James
carryon joins us with Gene and Chris.

Speaker 4 (01:37:09):
You're in the Parrot cast.

Speaker 2 (01:37:17):
Hi, this is unique, Pope.

Speaker 4 (01:37:19):
You're listening to.

Speaker 6 (01:37:19):
The Para Jon.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
The Parent casts with Gene and Chris talking to James
carry on. So high strange case is, James, do you
know some you want to talk about?

Speaker 6 (01:37:31):
Well, I'll have to say that I can't point to
one that's in the historical literature because I haven't personally
investigated it. But the ones I've personally investigated, again, I
have to go back to the abduction cases, because there
was one particular abduction case that I have in mind

(01:37:52):
where to me, it was very compelling witness testimony. There
was these were folks that had no interest in notoriety,
no interest in it being made public, and they're the
way they describe the events and the strange, the high
strangers of the events just was to me extremely compelling.

(01:38:12):
So again I'm going back to the abduction cases, and
to me, these these are the ones that probably are
the most intriguing to me. But as far as structured
craft UFO crashes, you know, major citing events, there's nothing
really that strikes me as high strangeness because they're historical
in nature number one, and the ones that I personally

(01:38:34):
investigate well and move on simply didn't pan out.

Speaker 2 (01:38:37):
Okay, you say didn't pan out? You went through these
cases that seemed the most compelling and everyone had a
conventional explanation, or did you actually find evidence that maybe
there was some kind of military disinformation going on.

Speaker 6 (01:38:50):
And mostly had to do with deception. Yeah, there was
some level of deception. Again, this is unknown I call
it unknown deception because I don't know if these folks
that perpetrate it had a personal reason for doing it,
you know, they just wanted to go out there and
perpetrate a hoax, if there was a money aspect to it,
or there may be an intelligence agency aspect to it.

(01:39:11):
All I know was human involvement and nothing highly strange
about it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
The problem is here, of course, is most of the
sightings never really get investigated. And you see a light
in the sky or somebody takes a picture of lights
and that's it. That's the beginning and end of it.
You never go beyond that, so you never know.

Speaker 4 (01:39:30):
Well, yeah, I.

Speaker 6 (01:39:31):
Would agree with that, but I'll have to say something that,
you know, I think that a lot of folks in
uthology may not like to hear, and that is, you know,
I think the bottom line is, there are folks that
are in the field that call themselves ufologists, call themselves researchers,
investigative journalists, whatever they want to call themselves. It doesn't

(01:39:51):
really matter. But when their modus operandi is to is
to perpetuate the mystery instead of solving it, we have
a big issue. We have a big problem because the
mystery will never get resolved as long as these people
are out there hawking their latest theories or the latest
controversy for controversy's sake, or their latest witness or their

(01:40:13):
latest you know, lad investigation, whatever you want to call
it doesn't really matter. But if you don't have a
sincere interest in truth, you're simply interested in making the
rounds of the UFO talk circuit and have your group
missed exactly, You're you're you're part of the problem, not
part of the solution.

Speaker 5 (01:40:30):
Well, do you have a short list for us, any
particular individuals that you'd like to single out.

Speaker 6 (01:40:36):
Yes, my short list is just pick any UFO conference
out there and grab the speakers that are there. And
that's my short list.

Speaker 5 (01:40:43):
Oh my god, no, I I go out there and speak.
Oh that's a broad brush.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
Chris. Do you have something to tell us? You see,
I don't do lectures, so I don't care about this.

Speaker 4 (01:40:56):
I actually don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:40:57):
I don't have anything to you know, you know, bring out.
I mean, I've found myself on the same das as
some individuals that if I had known they were going
to be there, believe me, I would not have agreed
to do particular events. But I think, yeah, I think
James brings up a really good point that, you know,
uphology and the paranormal now in general. You know, if

(01:41:19):
you look at all the ghost Hunter shows and the
spin offs and and Bigfoot and Crypto shows, this has
now become an industry, and it's an industry that continually
needs to come up with new, titillating information, new you know,
claims of events and that sort of thing. And you

(01:41:41):
really get on a slippery slope and you're heading downhill
real fast if you're, as James pointed out, if you're
concerned with perpetuating a mystery as opposed to, you know,
coming up with some sort of solution or at least
a new way of addressing how to research these things properly.
I think we've really lost that, And James, you know,

(01:42:01):
it's a point well taken.

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:42:03):
I'm thinking also here of the case of William Moore. Now,
William Moore was instrumental in the early research into Roswell,
and then he confesses in this nineteen eighty nine meeting
at Moufon in Las Vegas that he was working for
some government disinformation people. So do you think the whole
story here is that Roswell he was one of the

(01:42:25):
people who helped perpetuate the Roswell myth.

Speaker 6 (01:42:30):
You know, I think William Moore has a very interesting
history and experience. You know, I actually have been privileged
to look at some of his papers that you know,
a lot of his resource that he left to some uthologists.
And I don't think that he was part of the

(01:42:51):
Roswell deception or even perpetuating that as much as I
think he had a sincere interest in finding the truth.
But he found himself the same place a lot of
you followers find themselves, and that is cultivating the inside
source and thinking that if they get close to this
inside source, this alleged government insider, to their you know,

(01:43:13):
they're privileged in some way and one they can somehow
they can win over their insider to tell them what
the real truth is. So they almost there. They're out
there fishing, uh for you know, for something, but at
a high cost. In this case, it was being you know,
actually willingly participating in this information campaign. So the problem

(01:43:37):
is that, you know, you try to sell your soul
to the devil. That's what I'll say. You're gonna end
up on the losing end every time. You'll you'll be discredited. Uh,
people won't listen to you, they won't look at your
research for for what it really is. And I and honestly,
you know, I feel for William Moore because I really
believe that he was a person who really wanted to

(01:43:58):
know what was happening out there and you know, just
got too close, too close to an insider who used him.
Maybe that would be a better way to say it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:07):
At least he came out and admitted the fact. Of course,
it destroyed his credibility in the UFO field. So it
didn't serve anyone's purpose, or did it.

Speaker 6 (01:44:16):
I don't think it served well, obviously.

Speaker 5 (01:44:19):
Didn't sure even though amia Kulpa is a lot better
than being in permanent denial.

Speaker 6 (01:44:27):
Right, I would agree with that, or not even permanent denial,
but just or just keeping it quiet.

Speaker 3 (01:44:32):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:44:33):
You know, there are certain things that happened in the
UFO field where people are are doing things they shouldn't
be doing and they're keeping it quiet. And I mean,
you know, like for example, this involvement with with Bigelow
and Bass and some of the things that went on
around that. You know, those there has to be a
very much large amount of transparency when you're going to

(01:44:54):
be involved in something of this nature. You can't hide anything.
So for example, when Bigelow hid the source of his
funding and would only reveal it to John Schusler on
the move on board, that lack of transparency really rubs
me the wrong way. That tells me there's there's there's
some things being hidden for a certain purpose, and I
don't I don't want to be involved with.

Speaker 3 (01:45:15):
That, right.

Speaker 5 (01:45:15):
And John Schusler is also well at the time was
on the National Institute for Discovery Sciences board as well,
so a little bit of a conflict of interest at
the very least exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:45:27):
But it goes back to you know, when you think
you can cultivate the inside source and get somewhere, you
really get end up nowhere. I think the graveyard of
euthology is littered with people who ended up wanting to
learn the truth, but in the end not knowing the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:45:44):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:45:45):
Well, one thing I'd like to get into is when
we come back from our break, is your thoughts on
the Sherman Ranch or the Skinwalker ranch case. You know,
I really feel that this is an important case. It
may be litmus test for the kinds of deception that
you're referring to in the Rosetted Deception your book, and

(01:46:08):
also you know, a modern day version, a potential version
of that kind of deception. And when we come back,
what do you think of that particular scenario up there?
Is it, you know, as the ute's claim. Is it
some sort of you know, ancient sort of force that's
you know at play there. Do you think that Big

(01:46:29):
Low is involved as a cutout organization protecting some sort
of military psyops. Do you think that it's a combination
of several things we'd love to hear your thoughts on
that when we come back.

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
The book is called The Rosetta Deception, and we're moving
beyond that, and I kind of think we're helping him
and James carry on work on book two. We'll have
to ask him about that. With Gene and Chris.

Speaker 3 (01:46:53):
You're in the Peri Cast. I'm Kevin Randall. You're listening
to the Para Cast, the gold standard of paranormal radio.

Speaker 2 (01:47:20):
James carry on before we ask you about a possibility
of book two here, which seems to me inevitable. It
has to come. You have to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:47:28):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
What's your response to what Chris had to say?

Speaker 6 (01:47:32):
You know, the Skinwalker Ranch to me is interesting for
a couple of reasons. To me, the mythology, I'll call
it mythology because I don't think what's written the book
is accurate. This is based on personal investigation when I
went there and was denied access to the ranch, and
then finding out that the brother of the original owner

(01:47:53):
of the ranch before I was sold to Bigelow, was
very adamant in saying that nothing paranormal or strange nature
happened while his while his brother was owner of the ranch,
because he he knows this because he was on the
ranch many times. So I think there was a mythology
built around that in the same way that a mythology
gets built around a number of different cases that end

(01:48:13):
up on the silver screen as a true story. So,
you know it really it kind of works me when
I go into a movie theater now and the first
the opening scene in the movie says based on a
true story, because that tells me that somebody's going to
embellish the tale and they're going to sensationalize it. And
you know, sure enough, you know, you find out years
later that the tale was embellished or or something else

(01:48:35):
was added to it to sell books or sell movies
or whatever. And to me, that's what the Skinwalker Ranch
really sounds to me, based on my personal investigation. When
I went there and did investigation around the ranch and
talking to a lot of folks who lived around the ranch,
there was more alled strange things going on twenty thirty

(01:48:55):
miles away than that was happening on the ranch itself.
So there's a mythology that was being built up. Why
was it being built up. I think it had somewhat
to do with, you know, the mythology surrounding Area fifty one,
somebody wants to continue that mythology the same way that
the mythologies continued around Dulce, New Mexico An underground bases
and a lot of the stuff that we hear about

(01:49:16):
it really has no substantiation. Just because a billionaire owns
a ranch and a book is out there written by
you know, folks allegedly are on the ranch, doesn't make
it true.

Speaker 5 (01:49:27):
Well, do you want to amplify your answer? So, do
you think it's all just smoking mirrors and there's no
truth to any possible high strange claims of high strange
activity there.

Speaker 6 (01:49:41):
I can answer that if they'll let me take my
camper down there and let me stand on the ranch
for a week.

Speaker 5 (01:49:47):
Well, one thing I must mention, James is I did
go up to the ranch before the publicity bandwagon kind
of set sail, and I really did feel that Harry
was very upfront with me. I did not get any
sense of subterfuge from him. He seemed legitimately concerned about

(01:50:08):
the safety of his family, and so there was enough
there for me to, you know, kind of get a
sense that there was something very strange going on there
what it was, he didn't know, and you know, to
this day, I don't know. It's a very complicated scenario.
But do you win A basin, as you pointed out,
has a lot of activity going on around the ranch

(01:50:32):
and in the region there, and there's documentation that goes
back decades. What would be the motivation for some sort
of military ssyops program vis a vis using big Low
and NIDS or BASS as a front cutout sort of organization.
What would be the motivation to have the focus being

(01:50:54):
placed on the ranch?

Speaker 6 (01:50:57):
You know, I'm not sure. I know that there was
some discussion of tests of non lethal weapons there. That
was a rumor. I'm not sure how true the rumor is,
but you know, if you can if there's a if
there's a particular weapon that can you know, stimulate a
part of the brain that causes fear, it would be
a good way to test it there, because if you're

(01:51:17):
causing fear, then somebody has something to be afraid of
when they read the story. So I don't know, I
can't it's only speculation. I can't really say exactly what's happening,
why it's happening, what the motivation is. I really have
nothing to offer there. All I know is there's a
lack of transparency. And this lack of transparency happened even
back when in two thousand and eight, when I was

(01:51:38):
involved with the Discovery Channel on doing the show's UFO
over Earth. One of the things I proposed was let's
take the crew and go to the ranch. Let's investigate that,
and we were flatly denied by Bigelow. So come on,
if you're really trying to be transparent about what's happening
there and to actually support what's happening there, what's wrong

(01:51:58):
with letting a TV crew on there to document it?
And that was denied. When I went there and investigated personally,
I was also denied. So the lack of transparency and
the claim of personal safety and all this, I don't
buy it. All I know is that somebody's obfuscating what's
really going on. And I don't think it has to
do with protecting people's lives. I think it has something
else to do.

Speaker 5 (01:52:19):
Well, do you think that it could possibly be sort
of a red herring watch the right hand while the
real stuff is going on maybe in the region but elsewhere.

Speaker 6 (01:52:28):
Oh absolutely. I think one of the things that really
struck me. Was talking to somebody who's been on the
ranch a number of times, you know, that there was
a discovery of these metal rods on the ranch, and
then this gentleman was told by a KNIDS scientist Bigelow's
organization that they were they were Element one fourteen rods,
which ties into the whole Area fifty one Story.

Speaker 4 (01:52:50):
One fourteen fifteen.

Speaker 6 (01:52:51):
I've heard actually, and I can't remember whatever it was,
whatever was was allegedly discovered by or seen by Bob
Lazar at at Area fifteen fifteen.

Speaker 5 (01:53:02):
Junior Hicks was the one that I think was the
one that kind of you know, was involved with the
discovery of that particular rod, which I heard was equated
to a tractor part well.

Speaker 6 (01:53:14):
But he was being told that it was element fifteen, right,
so somebody wanted him to believe that there was something
highly strange about those rods. And what does that tie
back into? It ties back into Area fifty one, It
ties back into Bob Blazar, it ties back into the mythology.
So why does there have to be a tie into
the mythology if there's real activity going on in the ranch.

Speaker 5 (01:53:37):
A good point in terms of accuracy, Hunt for the
Skinwalker had one glaring inaccuracy in relation to that particular
event where the dogs chased off after one of these
blue softball sized balls of light. And then you know, subsequently,
the following morning, Terry went out there and found grease piles,

(01:53:58):
as he put it, I read it in the book,
the date was off by nine months. I was literally
on the phone with Terry when that event occurred, when
the dogs chased off, and he said, I have to
get off the phone and try to try to get
my dogs to come back. And the next morning I
found out that he discovered them, and his emotion was
genuine in his voice. Those dogs were melted into piles

(01:54:22):
of grease, in terms of my interpretation of his emotional
you know, bearing when he told me this the following morning.
But in the book, no, I mean he had it happen,
you know, nine months prior to that. So you can't
judge a book by its cover, and you can't judge
the contents of the book in some sense of the word.

Speaker 6 (01:54:44):
But I think it's I think we can judge lack
of transparency.

Speaker 4 (01:54:48):
That's true.

Speaker 5 (01:54:48):
Yeah, that's that's always a real, I think important indicator.

Speaker 2 (01:54:54):
James we're just about out of time. Let me ask
you very quickly here if our listeners want to know
more about the things you're doing, is there a site
that can go to or a place they could write you?

Speaker 6 (01:55:04):
Absolutely. I have a blog. It's called Rosetta Deception dot
blogspot dot com. You can also go to my follow
the Magic Thread a blog and there's a link to
it from there. And what I'm doing is I'm actually
taking all of the footnotes that are in the book
and I'm posting all the associated documents that I've uncovered.

(01:55:26):
So these are things out of books, out of the
National Archives. I actually live in the in the Virginia
area right now, so I can get to the archives
fairly easily now. And my research isn't over. There's a
lot more research to be done. And as you alluded
to earlier, there will be a second book coming out
tentatively will be titled The Roswell Deception.

Speaker 2 (01:55:49):
Oh all right, dum dumb, we're going to want to
have you back for that one. That's going to be
certainly fascinating. Taking it to the next logical step, we
can take Chris so Brian to his next logical step,
because he has a site called Ourstrangeplanet dot com. Ourstrange
planet dot com and as we've mentioned before, his latest
book is Stalking the Herd. If you want to copy, yes,

(01:56:13):
you can go to Amazon. But if you go to
Chris's site to buy the book, he keeps all the money.
You know, Amazon, you know Jeff Bezos is a cheap skate.

Speaker 4 (01:56:22):
That's why so rich.

Speaker 2 (01:56:23):
Of course I'll never get a book on Amazon after
saying that, but seriously speaking, he will sign the book
and he'll number the book Ourstrange planet dot com. You
can check us out on Twitter where we are known
as the power Cast. We are the power Cast on Twitter.
We're on Facebook as the Powercast Fanclub. There are two
of them, and nobody knows how to make them into

(01:56:46):
one fan club without killing some of the information. If
he's an expert out there, let us know about it.
Or check our site, Thepowercast dot com, where you can
download every single episode of The Power Cast, either in
one session or many sessions. James carry on, Thanks for
joining us on the Para Cast.

Speaker 6 (01:57:06):
Thank you, Jam, Thank you Chris.

Speaker 1 (01:57:16):
The Para Cast featuring Jeans Steinberg and Christopher O'Brien is
a copyrighted presentation of Making the Impossible Incorporated. Tune in
next week for a new adventure in the para cast

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Classic Episode: July 20, 2014 — Ghost Rockets: James Carrion

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Classic Episode: July 20, 2014 — Ghost Rockets: James Carrion