Classic Episode: March 22, 2009 — Experiencer Mike Clelland - The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
You've entered about power casts with your posts. Geene Sneider
and David.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
N let's start today's show with something that I don't
know if people noticed this, but last week there was
this asteroid thing that narrowly missed the planet. Did you
hear about that, Gene.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yes, it's strange that we don't hear about this before
it happens.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
We hear about it after it happens.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
And the problem would be, then, of course, that if
it did hit us, it would be too late to
worry about it, but we'd get rid of Fox News if.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Only, really, yes, if only that would have been so good. Well, no,
here's the funny part, because there is a funny part
to this. This asteroid came within about forty thousand miles
of the planet Earth, and it passed right over the
Pacific Ocean. Had this thing impacted, it would have just
been an absolute nightmarish disaster. Just it would have been terrible.

(01:07):
And apparently the astronomers had seen it a couple of
days before it actually went over the planet. Yeah, this
wasn't really reported in the media until after it had
gone by. It's actually mirroring something had happened in two
thousand and four when there was this other NM two
thousand and four I think was what it was called,
the NM standing for near miss, another large object passed

(01:30):
by the Earth really really close. And then there was
a couple of weeks ago there was this big sonic
boom over Westchester County in New York. And apparently they
think that this was also some sort of a meteorite
that broke up in the atmosphere and it created this
sonic boom. Really kind of an interesting thing. But the
fascinating aspect of the story, and I just wanted to

(01:50):
bring it up on the show and perhaps we'll do
a link to this on the forums, was that there
was this I think it was this bunch of Italian
astronomers had been shooting this through a telescope and you
look at the video of this thing going by. It's
an asteroid two thousand and nine d D forty five.

(02:11):
And as you're watching this thing go because you can
actually see this little, you know, light object flying by,
there is this other light in the sky that is
moving around, changing direction. And they're claiming that they captured
a UFO right near this thing. And you look at

(02:31):
the footage and I got to tell you, it's absolutely fascinating.
It's like, what the hell is that. I was looking
at the footage and my eye immediately went to this
weird UFO thing. It's just like a little light, but
it's moving, it stops, it changes direction. Now things are
moving in space that they don't do that. They just
don't do that. And it's not like some of that

(02:54):
Shuttle footage I've seen, you know, some of the space
station stuff where there are people who don't see it
camera move and they think that objects are moving and
changing their direction, when actually it's a camera move. This
is like a piece of a footage chop or a telescope.
It's completely stationary, and this light is moving and changing direction.

(03:15):
It is absolutely stunning. So there's not already a link
up now by the time people hear this episode, will
make sure to have a link to this stuff on there.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Fascinating things happening there. I hope we're not into the
end days. You know that these incidents accelerate until what
is it, twenty twelve when the world is supposed to end?

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Is that what they're telling us now, it's all, you know, crap.
But of course the interesting thing is the asteroid, rather
large asteroid that is going to pass by the Earth,
and I believe twenty twenty eight also very very very
very very very close, and the concern there being that
it's coming so close to the Earth that there's a
chance that the Earth's gravitational field might actually affect the

(03:57):
trajectory of this thing in a way that when it
passes by. I believe in twenty and thirty six that
there is a possibility that there could be an impact.
This is an object like eight hundred and eighty five
feet in diameter. I think it's this terribly large object.
It's very all very scary stuff. The piece that relates
to twenty twelve twenty thirteen, and I'm not looking at

(04:19):
this on the web, and we're setting this for memory,
but I believe that at that point in it's either
twenty twelve or twenty thirteen, they'll be able to get
readings on this to determine I have a much better
idea of how closed this thing will pass in twenty
twenty eight, whether this possibility that there could be a
danger of a potential impact. I believe it's twenty and

(04:42):
thirty six. So this is why my wife wants me
to increase my life insurance. Buddy, if that thing were
to hit the earth, you can wave goodbye to life insurance.
And don't get me started on the AIG memo. You know,
when it comes to life insurance, I would suggest to
everybody who's listening to this shows that it's got nothing
to do with the parent normal. That will seem like
an absolutely surreal nightmare when you read this. There is

(05:05):
a thread on the paracast forms called the AIG Memo,
and on my show Angry Human I talked about this.
But there's a link to the document. It's a twenty
one page document and the link is up on the
paracast forms if you go to the general chit chat
stuff and you do a search for the AIG memo,

(05:25):
I have a link to this twenty one page document
and it is, without a doubt, the scariest thing I've
ever read. Assuming it's true, and it looks like it's
a legitimate document, looks like it's real. And again, not
to go up on this tangent on the Poara cast,
but when it comes to life insurance, basically assuming that
there is such a thing as life insurance in twenty
twenty eight. That's now a question whether that will even

(05:47):
be an existing industry the way things are going. But
you know, yeah, at that point, Gene, if that thing
were to impact the Earth in twenty thirty six, you
can forget about life insurance, you can pretty much forget
about everything.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
I wouldn't use AIG then that's all. Yeah, I would
recommend against it. But anyway, listener Mike Clelland has returned
to our show because he went to Laughlin, Nevada, and
not just for gambling, and that's coming up on the
Power Cast.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
And now it's becoming completely different. This is Michah Hanks
of the Gray Leanerport and you're listening to the Para Cast,
the gold standard of paranormal radio.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Mike Clelland, we're so glad to have you back on
the show again. He's one of our listeners, by the way,
who had some fascinating paranormal type experiences and he was
on a few months back, and so he was possessed,
but not in a spiritual sense to go to Lachlan.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Was it gambling, Mike or what?

Speaker 4 (06:55):
It was not gambling that took me to Laughlin. I
went to Laughlin the UFO Congress. I went there last year,
which would have been the eight and then I went
again just in this February, which is now nine.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
And what happened there? Why'd you go?

Speaker 4 (07:09):
You know, it's interesting. I've taken this thing on in
the last couple of years O my own set of
memories and and I made a pretty bold decision to
really look into this and to sort of immerse myself
into this world. And that kind of means needing to
talk to people face to face and interacting with folks.
And the conference scene is and I've been to a

(07:32):
bunch of them. I've been to a handful in other places.
And David, you and I met at a conference in
New Jersey, uh, less than a year ago. You know,
they're they're kind of a mixed bag. They're kind of
a funny scene and uh, but at the same time,
I do get to interact, you know, one on one
with folks, and I found that pretty rewarding. So I
did it for that purpose mostly.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
When you came back, you and I spoke on the phone,
and you were telling me some pretty interesting stories about
some of the other experiencers that you got to meet
and speak with there. And I think it's important to
differentiate that at these things you have sort of the
sanctioned celebrity quote unquote personality people who are speaking doing sessions.

(08:14):
But that's not really why you went right, Mike, and
you were going to find kindred spirits last year at.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
The UFO conference and this is this is in a
you know, a typical conference hall. The you would have
it at any kind of large hotel or something like that.
So it's just a pretty bland environment that you're in.
There's no windows, and it's kind of it's kind of
oppressive in that sense and a little bit tacky. But
in the evening I think it was five or six

(08:44):
nights in a row. Leo Sprinkle last year ran a
UFO experience or support group. And you'd go in this
little room and there'd be a bunch of chairs in
a circle, and you would sit in a circle, just
like just like an alcoholics anonymous meeting or any other
kind of support the rep meeting, and the door would
be closed and note press was allowed and no one
was allowed to take notes to record anything, and people

(09:05):
would sit around and talk about their experiences. And I
did it last year and I did it again this year.
And this year was run by Barbara Lamb, and and
it was surprisingly important for me, you know, it was
it was important for me last year. And that was
actually the reason I went down there, is to you know,
to sort of sit in the circle, mostly to listen
to other people's stories. I certainly I'm not shy about talking,

(09:28):
but it was really, uh, it was really helpful.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Now for the listeners. Mike Phillison on Barbara Lamb.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Barbara Lamb is a hypnotherapist and family therapist from California.
She's a very sweet lady. She's the only way I
can describe her. The best way to describe is if
you wanted to do a commercial for for like Hallmark
greeting cards, and you needed to cast a very cute grandmother,
you would you would call Barbara Lamb and she would

(09:56):
show up on the at the casting session and you
would go, oh, she's the perfect cute grandmother. And so
she's got this very sweet, soft voice, and she's very
soothing to be in the room with. But she I
think it's over the last I think since the mid eighties,
she was doing hypnotherapy for sort of normal stuff, you know,
weight loss and and and quitting smoking and things like that.

(10:18):
And then and then she tells of an experience of
being at a hypnosis class in the mid to early
eighties before Whitley Strieber's Communion book came out, and the
teacher of the class said, Hey, just so you know,
like one of the things that comes up in this
this hypnotherapy thing is that sometimes people will, you know,

(10:41):
spontaneously start talking about memories, and these memories will have
the flavor of a UFO abduction with with people being
taken by little aliens, and and and as soon as
the teacher said that, Barbara Lamb heard this loud voice
in her head say, pay attention, this is important. So
and from that point on she started to get people

(11:02):
coming into her office with these stories. And so from
the mid eighties until the present, you know, a little
over twenty years, I think she's been doing UFO research,
and she's worked with John Mack and joe Lewells, and
her take on it is a little more Peter Robbins,

(11:23):
who's another person I respect greatly, sort of said she's
a little more Californian than I am. And Peter Robbins
is a native New Yorker and I would have to
agree with that. I lived in New York. She's got
a little bit of a New age bend to her.
But being in the room with her and I just
I recognize that she's got a really big heart, and
that actually counts for a lot when you're in a
therapy setting.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
You went into these sessions, they went on consecutive evenings.
What kind of stuff was being talked about? I mean,
what kind of stuff do you feel comfortable sharing with
the audience about what you've heard?

Speaker 4 (11:53):
Oh, I'll be cautious to be a little cagey because
I was asked, you know, not to share anything in there,
so I won't use names anything like that.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, no names, right, I mean, let's forget names. So
if if you're not going to cite people's names, then
you know, there shouldn't be a problem revealing anything to
personal to anybody. Let's divorce the personalities from the experiences here.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
Well, there was a strong divergence between the people who
had very beautiful sort of communion experiences with like space brothers,
and then people who had extremely disturbing and frightening sort
of nightmare events with you know, with what amount of

(12:35):
like you know, little evil doctors, and there was a
there was a you know, it was actually you know,
people almost I don't want to say shouting matches took place,
but you know, there was some some very tense moments
where someone would share their experience and the next person
would chime in like, that was not my experience. This
has not been my ongoing experience. My ongoing experiences have

(12:55):
been very difficult. And and it's a emotional thing. You know,
if someone wanted to write a stage play that was like,
you know, heavy with drama, boy, this is this is
a this is the venue. You know, this little you know,
people sitting in a circle talking about this kind of
stuff because speak you know, people cried and and uh
and it wasn't uncommon for people just to get so

(13:17):
upset that they would just stand up in storm out
of the room.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
It was.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
It was quite you know, you're dealing with deep, deep drama.
Ask your question about that. I know, in trying to
understand all of this, a lot of people, will you know,
talk about benevolence and malevolence, and I think about that
a lot. I think about people who report negative experiences
and malevolent beings. Do you get the feeling that they're

(13:42):
describing something that was sort of objectively speaking, a negative experience,
that there were negative motivations on the part of whatever
the creatures were. Or do you get the sense that
people when they think about or they refer to malevolence
that's coming just out of the complete oddness of the

(14:03):
experience and their own fear reaction. Oh, I know exactly
what you're asking, and I believe me, I'm doing battle
with that exact question because I don't have an answer
to that. You know, it seems like depending on which
way the wind blows any given day, I'll give you
a different answer. I don't have an answer, like I
don't have a conclusion on what it is, but it's
certainly the evidence of what's going on is that people

(14:26):
are telling these wildly divergent stories. You know, if it's
someone with deep negative fears and it manifests itself as
as a dark, nightmarish event, you know, I have no
proof of that, but people certainly talk about that as
as a way that it might be unfolding. If you're
open and receptive and not filled with fear, then it

(14:49):
might manifest itself as you know, your your angelic space
brothers coming to to impart you know, the goodness of
the universe. But but I don't have I am so
lost at how to answer that question. So I don't
have any way to wrap my mind around that because
it's so strange and almost so unknowable. I mean, you're
dealing with fragile, emotional people, and so the story is

(15:14):
going to come out, you know, painted a certain way.
And I have no doubt that when the people are
talking about, you know, their nightmare experiences, that they are genuinely,
you know, dealing with a full march trauma.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Well, it sort of brings us back to this idea
of you get out of it what you put into it,
and that you know, in essence, the nature of reality
is one that is self referential, so that if you
go into stuff saying I'm going to be very very
positive about everything in my life, that essentially even negative,
patently negative experiences will somehow be parsed through your perception

(15:51):
as a positive experience in terms of, you know, you
forget the details of the experience it might have been negative,
and say what did I learn from this? And so
in that sense, you could sort of turn any bad
experience into a positive learning experience, and I've always wondered
about how much of what this type of phenomena is

(16:11):
all about. I mean, and there's so many different when
we say phenomena, everything from UFO sightings to interactions with
beings to sightings or interactions with things like apparitions, goes
like phenomena that there does always seem to be sort
of this sense of the experience tailoring itself to what

(16:35):
people's expectations of it are. And this is a topic
I think we would definitely like to explore more on
the paracast. And I know you've talked about your own
experiences on this show to some extent. There are others
we'll talk about in more detail today. But I guess
in your own life, right, how do you feel ultimately

(16:58):
at this point in time, Because there is no you know,
there's no absolute answer to this, but do you feel
that the things that you've experienced have been positive or negative?
Would you put them into either box?

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Even? Well, this is strange because what you're asking is
exactly the stuff that comes up in this little circle.
And almost unlike as far as my situation, unlike the
people that I've been dealing with directly, my experiences which
are pretty fleeting, and I feel like I've had to
play detective and really look at each little puzzle piece

(17:33):
and make, you know, like a real conscious effort to
figure out how it fits with the other puzzle pieces in.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
My experience.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
To create the picture that I'm It seems like only
now that I'm kind of sensing what the picture is,
but my experiences are strangely void of any kind of emotion.
It's almost like they're sucked dry of emotion. It's almost
like they're so bland of emotion that I don't have
any way to to attach any emotion to them the

(18:02):
memories I have. That said, I made a big effort
to look into this stuff going back now I'm going
to say three years ago, it works out to just
about three years. And in those three years, my life
has been really hard, and the decision to look into
it on my part has been really hard, really awkward,
really hard, really emotional. Lots of you know, I've been

(18:26):
reclusive and soul searching and depressed and anxious, and so
I'm dealing with an experience as far as I know,
that has no emotional content to it, but the act
of looking into it has been very emotional for me,
you know. So, I'm not sure if that answers your question,
but that's the way I answered it.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, no, it closely mirrors my own feelings about this.
I've been largely ambivalent about a lot of this stuff
in my life and really sort of pushed it into
the background up until, oddly enough, almost exactly three years ago,
when I started doing the paracast with Gene. And at
that point I sort of let it all come flooding

(19:06):
in or flooding out, as the case would be, and
it's created a number of difficulties for me, some obvious,
some not obvious. And at the same time, and you
and I have compared notes on this to some degree,
I don't feel like I have a choice. I sort
of feel like I don't mean to laught but keep going.

(19:28):
Yet Yeah, well, I think you can relate to this.
I don't feel like I have a choice. I feel
like I, for whatever reason, I have to indulge this.
And in long discussions with my wonderful honey Susan, you know,
she'll say to me, what do you expect to get
out of this stuff? What do you expect to get
out of doing the para cast even and I said

(19:49):
to her, I'm not even sure. I don't know. And
as you've identified, Mike, I mean, I've gotten frustrated with
this certainly at times in such a such a read
that I've considered just like stopping, but ultimately I kind
of can't. I have to continue with it, and I'm
not sure what that means. It's you know, I kind

(20:12):
of deal with it on a day by day basis.
I don't know what it means. And yet at the
same time, there'll be a piece of email that'll come
in from a listener, and there's been a lot of
that lately, especially via Facebook, where people will contact me
and go, you know, this is this this show is
giving me hope that maybe we can understand this stuff,

(20:33):
and you know, people sensing my frustration on the forms
and then emailing privately and saying, you know what, don't
give up. You're doing something good here and don't give
it up. So ultimately, at the end of the at
the end of the whole day with this, I sort
of think that doing the para cast has been positive
and that it's making me face my fears with this

(20:54):
and you're.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
Describing something, Oh my gosh if I so, so, I uh, so,
I go down to Laughlin. And so it was at
the end of February. You know, I guess the point
of this whole thing is to talk openly about this stuff.
So at the beginning of February, for me, I went
through a really frightening, dark period of depression which I

(21:14):
hadn't been through in like sixteen years. It came out
of nowhere. I didn't quite know what to make sense of,
you know, how to make sense of it. And I
realized I was actually kind of scared the stresses of
my life. I was kind of scared to deal with
this subject, this kind of crazy, you know, fringy ufo stuff.
And I was going to go down to Laughlin and

(21:36):
immerse myself in this in this nut job world for
you know, a week, and I mean immerse yourself. You
don't leave the building, you know, there's no place to go.
And I was intimidated and frightened by it. And I realized, like, nope,
I got to follow through with this. And and I
you know, by the time I went down there, I
was feeling pretty good. But at the same time, it
was an odd chapter of like deep self examination this

(21:58):
trip for me, and I don't I don't mean that lightly.
And I would take people aside and uh and sit
with them, and there's.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Like a like a let's say it.

Speaker 4 (22:08):
I mean, you're you're like you're a given permission in
a UFO conference to have a heart to heart with someone,
you know, when you sit with them.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, so, uh, everybody's already sort of out on lim
to begin with, I guess exactly.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yeah, so you see the little niceties like you know,
you know, sometimes in my little town here where I live,
it might take me a decade to get to know
someone and then well enough to share some of my experiences.
But but you know, you just you just jump right
into it. At the conference, so I talked to a
lot of people and a couple of things came up.
One of them came up in the support group. You know,

(22:43):
there's people sitting in a circle in a little closed room,
and I remember this woman raising her hand and kind
of saying, listen, I have to ask everyone in the room,
do you feel like an oppressive sense of urgency right now?
And everyone in the room kind of rolled their eyes
and put their hand up like oh yeah, Like it
was universal everyone and in the room was sensing it.
And and whether that's just because you know, everyone's worried

(23:05):
about losing their job and there's there's there's giant economic
issues that are creating anxiety in all of us, or
is there some sort of reason that that we're not
privy to, you know, behind the curtain, that's creating this
this oppressiveness. I have no idea. I don't have a
good answer to that, but I feel it. I definitely

(23:25):
feel it. I'm feeling it, and I'm and I sat
with folks. I sat with folks and talked about it.
There's a there's a great person who sort of was
the new darling of the of the scene down there.
Her name is Miriam Delacato, and she was she. I
saw her on day one and I just kind of
saw her at the little coffee shop and I and
I said, listen, I recognized her because I had heard
an interview with her and seen her, you know, picture

(23:46):
was on the interview thing where a little podcast to interview,
which was excellent.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
So I so I.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
Knew her story and I went right after her and
I said listen, we got to talk, and she was like, okay,
let's make some time to talk, and we had lunch
and then sat with each other for a good few
sessions or sections of the conference. And you know, she
articulated exactly the same thing, and she articulated it in
a way that was very kind of brand the way

(24:15):
she articulated it. Who is she She is a Canadian,
She must be in her early forties. Now she's she
had a UFO abduction experience in the early eighties. And
the way she tells the story, it was with like
it was a very frightening experience. You know, driving in
a car full of people at at night in a

(24:35):
rural area of British Columbia. All of a sudden, the
person who's driving the car pulls over and everyone in
the car, you know, in essence, gets switched off. They're
staring blankly, comatos forward and a big giant of you know,
flying saucer lands next to their car at night, and
she's compelled to get out of the car. And then

(24:57):
she meets these beautiful and like, you know, blonde Nordic
characters and she's in essence given a prophecy and very specific,
which I wouldn't be. I would do a poor job
of retelling it here so I won't. And then they
basically said, Okay, it's not going to be time yet.

(25:17):
Just sit on this and and we'll tell you when
it's time. And so almost twenty years go by, and
she wrote it all up. She talks about typing it
on a manual typewriter, and then it was all stored
away and now they came back basically and said, oh,
now it's the time. And so she's out sort of speaking.
She's got a little bit of a I don't want
to say she's playing the role of a prophet, but

(25:39):
she's sharing information, basically saying, now is the time for
people with this experience to come forward, which is a
very strange thing for me to hear, because I've been
coming forward this in a pretty bold way, you know,
appearing on the show, and I've got a little blog
thing that I've been posting my experiences on. So and

(26:00):
then I'll also add that I've been involved in a
documentary where there's a film crew that's been following me
around as I look into these experiences.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Well, what's the general gist? Dog? You don't have to
give us exact details, and you have to worry about
paraphrasing her statements, but what's the general gist of what
she was told.

Speaker 4 (26:17):
The general gist is a little bit that we are
in an environment now like right now, and this all
collides with the twenty twelve things. So it's full of
like you know, New Age aphorisms and things. But we're
at a time right now where this information is important
for people to hear. You know, we have the choice
now whether it descends into negativity or it ascends into

(26:43):
a positive new chapter of humanity. And I recognize completely
how you know, Flighty and new Agy.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
This stuff sounds.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
And if I had heard my own voice, you know,
three years ago saying this, I would have you know,
cringed in discomfort at the level of like you know,
of ansf goofiness that sounds. But that was the same
message in essence that was showing up from a lot
of people. And it's the stuff of you know, of
a lot of metaphysical books and New Age books and

(27:11):
things like that. Right now, right.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
You're in the paracast with Gene Steinberg and David Piedne.
You never know what's going to happen.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Next, we're talking to Mike Clellan, one of our listeners
who has undergone some unusual experiences, but also went to Lachlin, Nevada.

Speaker 4 (27:41):
You connected with.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
A support group to talk about the things that happened
to you. Let me ask you, do you think, looking
at the end of it, that you learn to put
what happened to you in perspective? Or was it positive
or was it a negative experience to go through all this.

Speaker 4 (27:58):
Like all of it are just the the I mean,
it's just this particular session.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
Sure it was. It was was positive. Yeah, it was positive.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
I came away with a you know, I talked about
going down there in a state of like, you know,
anxiety and all being mixed up, and I feel like
I drove back in a state of clarity a little
more and just feels like, oh, like I'm on the
right path. I'm not doing anything. Uh you know, I
feel like I'm doing exactly what I is right for
me to do right now. And part of that is

(28:28):
doing what I'm doing right here is just just sharing
this stuff and talking about it online.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
In the discussion i'd had with you over the phone,
like there was one particular case for talk about I'm
hoping that you'll you'll elaborate on a little bit now
on the show that involved a family.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
Yeah, this is I'll mix up a few of the
details and things like that just to protect them. They
were very tense. So you sit in these circles in
this room, you know, and you look around the room,
and you know, it is like absolutely a cross section
of America. You know, a few like went and just
picked thirty people at random and put him in the room.

(29:06):
That's exactly what it looked like. There was no you know,
there was there was no pattern to be seen. But
the one pattern that did emerge as far as just
just the people is there was a level of anxiety
and tension in these folks. People seem to be, you know,
tense and dealing with something that was creating that in
their lives. There was a father there and he was

(29:27):
the same age as me. We talked about it a
little bit afterwards, and he had his twelve year old
daughter there. She was, you know, she was quiet and
tense and self spoken. And he was also there with
his wife. And the wife did not come into the meetings,
but the father and daughter did. And listening to the
father tell the stories, he told stories and in the

(29:51):
literature of the UFO abduction phenomenon. There is this reoccurring
theme of people being asked to perform do like, you know,
like tests. You know, I've read so many different things
in books where people talk about, you know, like, oh,
you know, you have to escort everyone to the bomb shelter,
and then you're in this virtual reality experience and all

(30:14):
of a sudden, you're you know, you have to corral
people take them to the bomb shelter, and that's your test.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
He talked about tests.

Speaker 4 (30:22):
Like going through the night after night after night, and
he was there to meet other people who had the
same experience. I don't know if he actually did, a
few other people seem to have that same thing. But
he talked about in his hometown, which is over on
the East Coast, meeting people with the same set of experiences.
And I think he's up to like thirteen people that

(30:42):
he's met that have literally the exact same memories of
the exact same tests. And his tests are absolutely the
stuff of I don't know, They're so cinematic in their nature.
He was talking about, you know, like being like the
test is you're on an ocean liner and the terrorists
have taken over the ocean liner and there's a bomb,
you know, so either you kill the terrorist or the

(31:02):
bomb goes off. And it's a sort of like personality
test where he feels like he was being tested to
kill people. And he said he did very poorly and
it didn't work. And he said sometimes in these virtual
reality scenarios, he would die and then like it was
literally like a like a video game where like you know,
like they would you know, the scenario would be over
being and he'd be he'd be thrust back into his

(31:24):
dream state. And he has lots of stories about you know,
seeing UFOs in his yard and flying saucers and interacting
with beings and and it was it was so rich
and so complicated. And he told a story of his well,
actually his daughter, you know, then shared a story that
she's been experiencing the same things.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
The way they told.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
And this is the stuff of absolute fanciful stuff where
where you know, it's hard to believe it. But so
this fellow would tell stories that were extraordinarily vivid and
very cinematic, and it was very strange because they were
so weirdly vivid and rich in detail that I was

(32:04):
having a hard time believing him and I still don't
quite know what to make of his stories. But he
seemed quite earnest and quite genuine, and his daughter was
backing him up. He would tell stories of these virtual
reality scenarios where he would have to perform dramatic rescues
or have these dramatic tests, and oftentimes they would be

(32:25):
One example would be he told a story of being
on an ocean liner. He would tell these stories where
sometimes he would actually die in the scenario and it
sounded like, you know, for all the world, like a
video game, and then the scenario would be over and poof,
he'd be back in some sort of I don't know,
UFO type situation. And his daughter was backing him up
on these things, and he was genuinely tense about his experiences.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Now, when his daughter was backing him up, right, let's
try to understand that, I mean, was she there? Was
she having the same experience along with him.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
They would get up in the morning after having a
fitful night of you know, unrestful sleep, and they would
he talked about literally sitting down at the breakfast table
with his son and daughter and they would all tell
the same story at the breakfast table, and it sounded
like it freaked his wife out. You know, she was
she was, you know, traumatized. She wasn't having the experiences,

(33:22):
but she was so freaked out that all of them
were talking about the same experiences. In the morning and
the daughter, the daughter told this really you know, frightening
story about waking up or having a having a dream
of of of some sort of like operation that was
taking place that was very vivid and very frightening, and
then waking up with a long scar, you know, on

(33:43):
her Torso that was unknown to her when she went
to bed, and she she had a dream of some
sort of operation and then she woke up with a
with a razor like.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Scar, And yeah, hold on that you're saying. Also, the
father had identified like up to thirteen other people who
and just for clarity's sake, he would see in these
experiences and then would know them in actual like meat space,
and they would confirm these things to him in reality.

(34:13):
You know, that's a hard one.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
For me to answer because I would just be paraphrasing
from memory, but pretty much, yes, yeah, pretty much yes.
And then they would go on to tell the same
set of dreams and the same set of experiences down
to like frighteningly intricate details, and this is all taking
place in his hometown. That's just amazing. Yeah, it is
absolutely amazing. It's absolutely amazing. And so here I'll give

(34:35):
you at a little aside here. So this woman Miriam
who I talked about, Miriam Delacado, and she claims to
have psychic abilities, and she writes about it in her
book and she talks about it in her in her discussions.
So the father and daughter are standing there in the
hallway and I had just finished talking to Miriam, and
i'd kind of come out of one room and walk
towards the main hall and I meet the father and

(34:55):
daughter and I say hello, and then out of the blue,
they just say, you know, part of the father says,
part of the reason I came here was to introduce
my daughter to Miriam Delcado. And I was like, well,
she's right in the other room. They didn't know what
she looked like. There was no picture of her on
the uh on the uh like the catalog or anything.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, right, So so I said, I'll introduce you.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
So I walked them over and and she's sitting behind
her desk and she's got like you know a little uh,
you know, a pile of her books and I and uh,
you know, you know, Miriam, and I introduced everyone and
then I kind of realized like, oh, I should probably
just walk away. And I walk away for fifteen minutes
and then I come back and uh. And Miriam's got
a very intense way about her. I mean, she's very focused.

(35:38):
When she talks to someone, she looks you right in
the eye, and it's a it's a little unerving. She's
so focused. And I could see she was in that state.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
You know.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
So I kind of walk up and I was going
to join the conversation, and she in no uncertain term
like put her hand up like you know, like halt,
and then pushed me. You know, I kind of said
it back off. So I was like, okay, backed off
and kind of milled around a little bit and kind
of watched them from the corner of my eye from
the other side of the of the you know, the
room there, and then I saw them say goodbye. And
a little bit later I ran into Miriam and she's

(36:06):
very emotional person and very you know, she hugs people
a lot and stuff like that. She walked right up
to me and hugged me and said that was the
most important thing I've ever done. That was the reason
I came to this conference was to talk to that
young girl. And I was like, whoa, you know, that
made me feel pretty good then, and then I later on,

(36:27):
you know, this is like you this is later on
I talked to the father and after Miriam gave her presentation,
and the father you know, I said, hey, what do
you think of Miriam's presentation? And he looked at me
with this in this very calm way, which he hadn't
been calm before. He was very tense and very calm way.
He said, well, I feel like I have a you know,
mission statement for how to lead my life. Yeah, so

(36:48):
this is like you know in you know, like I mean,
you have to deal with some you know whatever. You're
like walking around in a circle there with like, you know,
people that I don't respect, are you know, giving presentations,
but then you have like moments like it was really
you know, there's a side to this that can be
really emotional and really touching.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
In terms of the father and the daughter talking about
these experiences, did they convey any sort of message or
any sort of overall feeling about what had happened in
these experiences. Did they feel like they had received any information?
You know, that's hard to say. It felt like I
wouldn't be able to answer it. The stories that he

(37:24):
was most interested in telling, the father and the daughter
was very self spoken, so I have a hard time,
you know, speaking for her. But the story the father
was telling was mostly these kind of odd virtual reality tests,
and he was angry and tense and confused and quite
rightly you know, questioning his own sanity as far as

(37:45):
I could tell. And that was part of the thing.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
I think that the meeting all these other people had
been you know, had been very reassuring for him.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
More experiences, what other kinds of things that you hear
about in these support group style meetings.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
You know, it was interesting. One of the things that
happens is, you know, there's a sort of Dave Jacobs
Bud Hopkins scenario that gets played out. And I would
actually say, to a very small percentage, the larger percentage
of stories that I heard were much more of a
coming from a place of high strangeness and from a

(38:18):
place of you know, very you know, that divergent from
those from the Bud Hopkins thing. You know, as far
as meeting you know, angels and soul guides, and so
it had that end of it, which is very interesting.
You don't really get that if you allow yourself to
be pigeonholed into one little small section of of how

(38:38):
the research is done. You know, I think that all
those researchers are doing very real research. You know, I
trust Bud Hopkins, and I think Dave Jacobs is very
sincere and the researchers doing but it didn't reflect the
bigger picture that I was seeing in these support.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Groups and in terms of veracity of this stuff. I mean,
and obviously you're very open minded about all of this.
But at the same time, like you said, you lived
in New York for at least a decade. I'm guessing
some of that rubbed off on you. What percentage of
what you were hearing did.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
You feel would satisfy any kind of proof of credibility
for you personally?

Speaker 2 (39:13):
So this is obviously a subjective call. But when you
walked out of there, did you think to yourself, all right,
half of what I just heard is blowny, the other
half is compelling.

Speaker 4 (39:24):
What were the ratios? Oh that's a tough one because
some of the stuff. Some of the stuff was you know,
I think I was hearing it from folks that may
have had a very real experience, and then somehow in
there in their own mind, it got all scrambled up,
and then when they retell the story, it's projected in

(39:46):
sort of like you know, you know, like I'm I'm
in connection with my with my alien space family that
lives in the Pleiades. And then so there may be
at the root of it some very real experience, and
this experience is called in a way that comes out
as as as almost fanciful and unbelievable. You've entered into

(40:22):
another dimension.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
You've entered the paracast. We're talking to Mike Clelland and

(40:52):
his experiences meeting people who have had unusual experiences in Laughlin, Nevada,
where they had a UFL Congress. So he's gone to
two years in a row, and we haven't so much
talked about the Congress as talk about the things that happen.
Now these other people getting all these.

Speaker 3 (41:08):
Experiences which start reading almost like that one armed character
at in one of the Scandinavian countries. Okay, Switzerland, that's
not Scandinavian, Yes, Okay, well, excuse.

Speaker 4 (41:20):
Me, I'm Scandinavian, so so I'll.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Take s Okay, well exclu trying to be KOI there, Okay,
what anyway referring to that thing. Do you think that
there is anything genuine, some genuine source behind his experiences?

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Is it all wishful thinking?

Speaker 1 (41:36):
What you know?

Speaker 4 (41:38):
You're you're like the soup is so stirred up and
mix up I have. I can't give a good answer
to that. I mean, there's folks that I relate with
really well, and I connected with really well, and then
I made every effort to sit and spend time with
those folks. And then there's other folks that had stories
that to me were you know, like it's if you've
put a continuum right, and on one end of the
continuum is like, you know, I, you know, out the

(42:00):
window and I saw, you know, this light in the
sky way off in the distance, and it sure seemed
to be behaving oddly. Okay, that's at one end, and
you go all the way to the other end of
the continuum. And then there's people who say, like, you know,
I'm alien hybrid and my you know, my parents were
involved in the CIA, and and now I'm like being
used as this tool from like the messengers of the Pleiades,

(42:20):
And I mean I certainly met people like that too.
You know, there's two ends of the continuum, and and
depending on my mood and the during the day, it's
like where I fall as far as how I believe that,
you know, and I don't know where I am on
the continuum as far as my story, because my story
is just as unbelievable as as you know, the person
who's who tells something that sounds patently delusional.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Well, now let's take a little detour for a moment.
I want to come back to Laughlin. But there's an
experience you talked about briefly on the show before that.
Now apparently you can discuss a little more details, So
let's just go and jump right into that for a moment,
if you would.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Sure, Yeah, and this is this is I was very
cooi on the last time I was on, which I
think was November of eight, and I told you personally
of the story, and I chose not to talk about
it in front of them, you know, obviously a big
audience like like it's going to be listening to this podcast.
But since there was another person involved, and I've talked

(43:21):
to her and it'll become really obvious. Why, you know,
I was coy about it, but I talked to her
and she gave me permission to share this. So now
I'm sharing it because I think it's relevant. This would
have been in two thousand and one, and I'm pretty
sure it was January of two thousand and one. I
was living with a woman and this is the woman
I'm talking about. Her name is Kim, and we both

(43:43):
woke up in the middle of the night exactly the
same time. And hey, yea, how to say this. How's
your Yiddish?

Speaker 2 (43:51):
I think both of our Yiddish is pretty good. Okay.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
So the term stoop, so yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
That's a term it just about everybody knows.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
So right, So I've live in Idaho, so maybe not
people here, so but so yeah, So we woke up
in the act of sex and you walked up into it.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
You woke up right, nothing.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
I liked you. We were just kind of like spooning
a little bit under the covers. I mean, it was
like it was this is it feels funny to say this,
but I'm just going to keep on going.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
We both woke up and I like, if you snap
your fingers, bink both of our eyes, like all of
a sudden, we're open. We're in the act of, you know,
a very intimate h performance and uh and we both
in essence say, oh my god, what just happened?

Speaker 2 (44:35):
How did this happen? What's happening?

Speaker 4 (44:37):
It was extremely odd. It was late at night, and
I don't know when it was, but it was, you know,
you know, well after midnight and well before dawn, so
somewhere in there it was dark in the room. I'll
add that we never talked about it afterwards. I think
at one point she said, you know, wasn't it weird
that when we woke up like that, you know, like
a month or so later, and then I completely dism

(45:00):
never said anything about it. I remember it was kind
of distressing, so we never talked about it later. As
part of my like this journey that I've been on
as far as like trying to contact people and talking
to people, I was in Philadelphia. I was sitting with
Dave Jacobs, and Dave Jacobs said, you want to know
if someone's had of, you know, an abduction experience. You

(45:20):
want to know if someone's had a weird UFO experience.
You don't have to ask about aliens, you don't have
to ask about flying saucers. All you have to ask
him is what's the weirdest thing that's ever happened to them.
You'll know right away whatever answer they give, you'll know
right away if they if they've had any kind of experience.
And I thought that was kind of an interesting way
to look at it. And I remember later that next day,
and I was staying in New York at the time,
where I lived, I was staying with some friends. I

(45:41):
thought about that, and I said, you know, if someone
asked Kim that question, she would tell that story about
that night in two thousand and one, and I sat
with my friend. I was staying at a friend's house.
And he's a smart guy. He actually has his own
very vivid UFO story, but that's so's He's very open
to my experiences. So I've shared a lot with him.

(46:01):
And then I talked with him. I said, listen, here's
this thing that happened with my old girlfriend Kim and
I and I talked about it and I described it
and I said, I think I said something to the
effect of and I'm pretty sure I wrote it down.
I said, you know, we were doing something that you
needed to get into consciously, but somehow we arrived there unconsciously.

(46:24):
And the arriving like that so abruptly was really jarring.
And he said, wow, that's really strange. And so later
on that same day, I said it. I was at
his apartment and I called Kim up. We're on good
terms and I we talk all the time. And I
called her up and she still lives in rural Idaho
here and I said, listen, I have to talk to

(46:44):
you and I have to ask some questions. And she
was like, you know, I could tell she was a
little taken aback, and she's like, go on. And I
said that night in two thousand and one, do you
remember that night? And she was very tense. She said yes,
And then I would press her a little bit and
she would she didn't want to talk about it. She
did not want to talk about it, but I refuse.
I was just like, okay, you got to tell the story.
I just so here's what she said, she said, And

(47:07):
I was writing this down. I definitely was writing this
down as I was taking notes, as I was on
the phone. She said, it was very unusual to do
something that you need to arrive at consciously and somehow
to do it unconsciously, and to be thrust into consciousness
so abruptly was really jarring. So in essence, she said,

(47:28):
I don't want to say word for word, but it
sure felt like word for word what I had just
told my friend, you know, a half hour earlier. And
it really made my heart sink. It kind of scared me.
It kind of freaked me out that she remembered so
exactly the way I remembered it, like to the point
of almost word for word. And then neither of us
could really come up with much more. We didn't really
have much more as far as details on this. So

(47:51):
I'll jump forward. This is I'm in New York City
and part of this like weird journey and you know,
like running around trying to interview folks and talk to
folks and take notes. And so I was working with
Bud Hopkins. So I go to Bud Hopkins' apartment or
her house in the city, and I had had an appointment.
I'd seen him earlier in the week, and I was
back again and I walk in the you know that

(48:15):
next morning, I walk in to see Bud, and I
sit right down, and I like, you know, he's got
a couch, and I just like, I just get right
and and I say listen, but I got to tell
the story. And I unload exactly the same story I
just told you, including all the details about Kim, you know,
retelling her memories on the phone. And then I look
at Bud and I say, listen, is this Has this
ever come up in your research? And Bud makes this

(48:39):
expression and kind of rolls his eyes, and he basically
just from his expression says, oh, boy, boy, this one
comes up all the time.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
I have.

Speaker 4 (48:49):
Boy, have I heard this one? I've read, you know,
so many books on the subject. I've never heard of
this thing ever. Has has just out of curiosity?

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Has this?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Have you ever heard of this? Either of you? No,
actually I haven't. And it was making me think, you know,
the time that we've talked about it in the past privately,
and now as you're recounting, it's made me think, you know,
has anybody looked to how often this happens? Just in general?
Are there medical reports or are there anecdotal stories about

(49:18):
people waking up into this? I've never read about any
of this in any kind of erotica, no I, or in.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
Any kind of UFO format, you know, like in no
one who's written a UFO book. I haven't seen it either.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Maybe they think, you know, let me just interruptriefly here.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Maybe they think it's not politically correct to get into
something that revolves around a sexual activity. It's a natural
thing to happen, and you would expect that maybe it would,
but maybe that's the issue.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Well, it's being hidden.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
I think the issue being here that a lot of
things go on, People encounter a lot of strange things,
and just listening to you, I've heard a few things
from time to time from people I've talked to, and
they don't want to talk about it because it sounds
too outlandish, too crazy, a little bit pushing the envelope.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Just like you were.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
For example, how should I phrase the sex act? What's
the best way to express it? And you could have
just said we're having sex. But of course our society
tends to be embarrassed bi sexual innuendo, sexual intimations about
doing things that are perfectly natural, and therefore, as soon
as we hear something, well, we've got to couch it

(50:30):
in the right politically correct terms. We don't want to
upset people. We don't want people to consider this. You know,
for example, when you hear about people who meet alien women,
how often do you hear of them doing things with
that alien woman?

Speaker 4 (50:45):
Well, you can't go that. You go to a little
circle in Laftlin, Nevada. And now it comes up to
believe me, so, well, we have to.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Go to Laughlin, Nevada more often, David. Well, the reason
I was asking about how often this has been report
it just in general, from a medical point of view,
it would be to establish basicially established that yeah, exactly,
that this is If this is something that happens all
the time in people's private lives, well that's one thing,

(51:14):
you know. Then then can you attribute some weirdness to
it that isn't biological weirdness? It's like no, you know,
at that point, if it's happening all the time personally,
from an anecdotal point of view, I've never heard of
this happening to anyone in the paranormal realm or outside
of it.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
Well, this is interesting because because you know, you're talking
to a you know, I think that the people who
listen to this this podcast are smart and interested in
the subject, and maybe someone out there has can chime
in on the forums or something like that and follow
up them exactly.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Now, when when this was? When this happened? All right,
let's sort of finish the description. No pun intended? How
did it end? I mean, did it end the way
these things tend to end? Or what? What was the scrub?
Give us some details about I've been.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
So you're asking exactly the same question that Bud asked. Uh,
you know, he kind of like, you know, no uncertain terms,
asked that same question. And to be honest, I can't remember,
so curious, right, Yeah, that's weird now you don't you
know nine years ago? Eight years ago?

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Now? So no, no, I understand. But even like you know,
thinking about it, was there completion? You know, you woke
up into this. What's your last memory of it?

Speaker 4 (52:28):
I mean you literally don't remember. Uh, I can't really remember. Yeah,
I mean if I would only be guessing. So I
don't have any good answer to that. I'll tell you what, Mike,
We're going to.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Want to explore this through some of our second hour
on the Power Cast.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
We'd like you to stay with us, But before we
do that, you do have a.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
Blog, and I think our listeners who are curious about
your experiences and your opinions would be interested in reading it.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Tell us where do we find it?

Speaker 4 (52:57):
Yeah, So, since I've been back from from Laslin, I've
I got kind of compelled to do this little blog thing.
So I've been posting some of my experiences and a
lot of them are odd synchronicities, which are some of
them are just kind of funny. But it's under the
title of hidden experience all one word got blogspot dot com.

(53:18):
And I'll repeat that hidden experience all one word got
blogspot dot com.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
You know what am I selling anything on the blog?

Speaker 3 (53:27):
So okay, well you should add, you know, some kind
of monetization. But what I'll do is I'll put the
link to that under your name in a description of
the show, so people can just click on your name
and get there. We'll talk more with Mike clelland on
the other side of the Power Cast.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
I'm Kevin Randall.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
You're listening to the Para Cast, the gold standard of
paranormal radio.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Listener experiencer Mike Clellan joining us again. How he's a
blogger and after we promote his blog, everybody will be
reading it, but you know, there's always been through the
UFO field and undercurrent of sex and saucers, you know,
ha ha ho ho he he. But to people who
are involved and have unusual experiences, it's a lot more

(54:26):
than that. It can be very very strange. So you
said that you had talked to doctor Jacobs about this
particular thing.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
What was his reaction.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
I made a phone call afterwards to Dave Jacobs and I,
you know, i'd met with him and I got along
with him really well. I actually liked the guy personally
a great deal. And he seems very serious in his
in his the way he studies it. And it's interesting
because he's very cautious not to you know, I'm the
person trying to make sense of my experience. He's very
cautious not to give me too much information, you know,

(55:01):
in order not to sort of, you know, make me
come to conclusions that that you know, would be influenced
on stories he tells me. But so I told him
just exactly what I just told you, both of you,
and he very coyly sort of said interesting. Interesting, And
I kind of pressed him on it, and I was like,
does this come up? And I kept on pressing on

(55:23):
it and pretty much he said that, you know, though
he had not heard exactly this story before, the one
that I had told, unlike budd who who you know,
just parroted right back and told me a couple of
experiences that were that matched exactly. He said that he's
had experiences that were very similar show up in his research.

(55:44):
And that's as much as he would say. He and
then he kind of hinted that it was multiple experiences all.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Right now going into this word detail, going back to
your sessions over there and Laughlin of now, was there
anything there of all these where you just said, you
know what, this person is faking it?

Speaker 4 (56:03):
You know, I never thought faking it that the thing
that was more that would come up as like, oh,
this poor person might be delusional and this might be
like the way, uh, you know, mental illness is presenting itself.
But I never quite saw anyone faking it. And just
and just sort of like from my shoes right here,
I don't know why anyone would want to fake this.
It's not there's no there's no joy or ego involved

(56:26):
in the story. For me, it's it's a complicated and
distressing thing for me to talk about and to deal with.
So I didn't see since anyone faking it. But I
had a nice conversation with a woman and she was
really good about just saying which I needed to hear
because I was kind of wallowing in the fact that
you know that there is that element of uh, you know,

(56:48):
looniness there in a way, and she was really good
about just saying, like this is this is just people's stories,
you know, just like, listen to their stories. Don't be
judgmental now, because you know, my story is just as
irrational and just as strange as any of their stories.
So how can I be in a physician to judge
their stories. What I did do, though, is I say,

(57:09):
to the people who I connected with really well, I
just allowed that and it just like then just made
an effort to sit with them and hang out with
them and listen to them and share with them. And
the people that I didn't connect with really well, I
just I just moved on.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
What about speakers. You've actually sort of avoided bringing up
any of the you know, featured speakers, But we're curious,
who did you potentially hear that surprised you, Maybe you
liked when you thought you might not have who did
you find compelling? Along the speaker wise side of this event.

(57:41):
What I'll do is.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
I'm going to blend in because I was there in
eight and and O nine, and I'm just going to
blend them together here because because I had such a
good experience in O eight, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Some of the speakers I really liked them.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
There's a woman named Dolores Cannon that I really liked,
and she is very new agy and does this wild
deep hypnosis technique where she will uh you know, get
channeled information from her hypnosis patients, and that's the kind
of stuff that you know, like I find kind of interesting,
but I easily dismissed. But I thought she was great.
I really And she's another one that that has this

(58:13):
not like Barbara Lamb is a very cute and sweet
grandmother character, and I for some reason, I just resonated
with that so much. I just I'm just drawn into
this that type of personality. There's a fellow named Mike
Orum from the UK, and he told of of a
heavy hand instead of abduction experiences, and I thought he

(58:34):
was really interesting. Richard Dolan spoke last year, and I
thought he was he was great and You know who
I actually sat and had coffee with was James Fox,
and I really liked him.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Yeah, We're about the same age, and we actually there
was through uh you know, we had a mutual friend
and so it was really easy just to pale around
with him.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
So he was great. I liked him a lot. Uh.
Peter Robbins is great.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
And there's a fellow who I would actually I think
might be a good potentially a good person to interview
on this show as a doctor, Joe Lewells. This was
last year, and he was great. I had a I
really thought he was I had a big a lot
of respect for him. A clinical therapist doing doing hypnosis
work as well as doing research into the to the
UFO phenomenon. And he's written two books. One of them

(59:20):
is called The God Hypothesis, which I thought was great,
and another book called Rulers of the Earth where he
kind of looks at, you know, things that take place
in the Bible and how it how it parallels the
UFO phenomenon. Smart guy Leo Sprinkle was there last year
and he's I like him a lot. You know who
I actually talked with a little bit. But the presentation
was amazing and and and compelling. There's a guy named

(59:42):
Charlie Fultz and Jim Weiner, and those are the two
of the folks from the Alligash abduction event that that
was the basis of the book. So Raymond Fowler wrote
a book, uh, I think it came out in the
early nineties called the Allagash Abduction. There were four friends,
all going to art school together. Two of them were twins,

(01:00:06):
and in nineteen seventy six they were on a camping
trip in northern Maine with a canoe. They were canoeing
in a series of lakes and rivers and they had
a nighttime you know, out and out abduction, a missing
time event, very bold, very dramatic, seeing a UFO and

(01:00:28):
afterwards they didn't talk about it among themselves, but later
they were having very similar dreams. All of them started
having very similar dreams. They went to ray Fowler, Raymond
Fowler as a as a researcher, and he separated them all,
put them all through hypnotic aggression. They all told pretty

(01:00:50):
much the same story. And this is one of the
wonderful things about the story is they were all art students,
so they all drew similar things. In there from their
memories without uh, without contaminating each other. And the drawings
are extremely unsettling, very curious stuff about about like just
literally like each person individually drawing close ups of fingers

(01:01:14):
of like very odd beings with with uh. I can't
remember how many fingers, but it wasn't five. Then put
it that way and uh, and these two guys got
nothing to prove, everything to lose. They're not presenters, they're
not showmen, they're just you know, they gave a talk
that was absolutely riveting. And I'll add that the fellow

(01:01:36):
Chuck talked about and afterwards their lives had had ongoing
paranormal and ongoing The assumption is that there's ongoing abduction
stuff that was occurring afterwards. So the fellow Chuck, who
must be in his early fifties, now you know, this
is a PowerPoint presentation. These guys are excellent illustrators and
excellent drawers. So they're their slides or they're what was

(01:01:57):
going up on the screen where the renderings were beautif
this guy Chuck shows a slide that that was of
him lying in bed with a series of gray aliens
out his window and he was staying at a friend's house,
so he was downstairs in like their guest bedroom, and

(01:02:18):
this event took place. He said, his reaction to this
whole event was, you know, he woke up in the
middle of the night, looked out the window and it
was like a big sliding glass door, so there was like,
you know, like that would go out to a porch.
He looked and saw I can't remember how many it
was now, but more than one gray alien. And his
reaction was to put his head on the pillow and

(01:02:38):
cover his head with a blanket and go right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Back to sleep. Sounds familiar.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
And so I see this big slide up on the screen,
and I had and I don't know, you know, just earlier,
I don't know whether it was weeks or months earlier,
but earlier in the year, I had drawn almost the
exact illustration, and it's up on your on your uh,
it's posted on the on the on the para cast forums.

(01:03:05):
It was of me sitting in bed looking out the
window at a series of gray aliens. And it freaked
me out to sit in the audience and see this.
And I later went up and talked to him and
I shared a little bit of that and and uh.
And and the guy was, you know, super sweet, unassuming guy,
had nothing to I had nothing to try to you know,

(01:03:28):
there's no ego invested in his presentation, you know. So yeah,
I was. I was kind of thunderstruck when that happened.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
So you're not the only one who's had this kind
of thing happened to you, and I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Not the only one who's drawn it. I mean, if
we put those two illustrations side by side, I could.
I think I can get a hold of that illustration
pretty easily. And I'm gonna put those two side by
side and maybe I'll post him on the forum. It
was weird to to, uh, to have, you know, to
see that like that, you know, in a room with
the actual person standing in front of me, knowing full
well I had almost the exact same drawing, you know,

(01:04:02):
just months before.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Ew.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Now, he wasn't familiar with what you had done in
the forums you talked about on the show, not at all.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
He had no idea who I was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
And you had a similar reaction, right, if I'm remembering correct,
My reaction was, and this shows up on our previous interview.
My my reaction was, I looked out the window, it
was a very bright light. I saw five gray aliens
kind of standing in a line pretty close to the window,
and my face was really close to the window, so

(01:04:30):
they weren't that far away. My reaction was to and
I'm almost gonna say, this is gonna sound strange, and
it was. I almost heard a voice inside my head say,
now it's time to shut down. Lay your head on
the pillow. Yeah, And I promptly put my head on
the pillow and poof, I was out instantly. And I'll
also add.

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
That that that experience is is. I woke up the
next morning and I completely dismissed it. It was a dream,
it was, it was. It never happened. It had a
sort of foggy, otherworldly tone to it. And I will
say that that experience, of all my experience, is the

(01:05:09):
hardest one for me to wrap my mind around. That
is the easiest one for me to say, Nope, never happened.
It's just too it's too bizarre, it's too far out,
it's too dramatic, and I can just say nope, just
just all those things add up to it's impossible. It
never happened.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
That said, I said, I remember it very clearly, do
you have any fear associated with that experience? You know,
it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:05:39):
That experience I said this before, is sort of sucked
dry of any emotion. It feels like I should, you know,
I should either feel absolute wonder, you know, like oh
my gosh, this is amazing, you know, and or I
should feel completely terrified. I don't have either. Quite literally,
I have no emotion at all attached to that, And

(01:06:00):
the emotion I do have attached to it is just
you know, quandary or almost out not embarrassment, just like
retelling it, you know, that just seems so silly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
You've entered another dimension. You've entered the paragass.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
We're talking to listener Mike Clelland about the time he
saw great aliens in his window, and I'm wondering, do
you think maybe we can just say this The aliens
were feeding you a little mind control so you would
not react emotionally one way or the other in any
extreme fashion.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
I've never said that out loud on this thing, but
that's exactly what it felt like. And I guess I've
given you all the clues and letting you come up
with that on your own, but I mean, that's exactly
what it felt like. It felt like I was, you know,
I was being controlled.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
David doesn't know this, but we always had a strange
feeling myself. My wife didn't have this and a place
we used to live up till.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
About three years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
We've lived in Arizona since nineteen ninety three, and we
moved into this place that I selected.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
I came out here alone and picked out the place.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
And we had a large master bedroom and you could
see the foyer from it, and quite often I look
at that foyer and I have a feeling of fear
that something was there watching me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
I never said this before on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Okay, I'm one of these people who can say I
haven't had what I think to be a paranormal experience.
I have no idea why I felt that way. Now
we're currently living in a different place with not a
dissimilar layout the large master bedroom before your section.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Never feel it here? Did your wife feel it there
as well? No? No, not at all?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Never mentioned it to me, all right because if she,
if she did, this is something that has come up
certainly looking at things like ghost research. Very often, if
you find in a home or in any kind of
a facility where these things are going on, an unprotected
breaker box or any source of a large amount of

(01:08:35):
you know, like electronic RF leakage, you know, large amounts
of radio frequency informing energy coming out of let's say again,
like a like a breaker box. It's not properly you know, insulated.
Sometimes that kind of energy can create a sense of

(01:08:57):
oppression or sense of being one. Well, I'll tell you this.
The breaker box is a standard breaker box that you
see in new construction. Here we're talking about a house
that was built about a year before we occupied it,
and the breaker box was in the garage, not super
close to the master bedroom, all right, And you know,

(01:09:20):
I grant that could be a possibility, and maybe I
was more.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Sensitive to it than she was. I have no idea,
and maybe she never told me.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Yeah. Yeah, Just like when you have a recurring, reoccurring
situation like that, it often is useful to sort of
eliminate those kinds of considerations or sources from unders from
the process of trying understand what's going on.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Well, in terms of RF, we have a lot more
here because I have two routers, we have portaphones, we
have all sorts of things going on. I think if
there's any kind of radiation running around loose, we have
more of it here than we had there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Yeah, So it's just like it was just like a
feeling you had right right, and there was nothing, you know,
physical or no experiential stuff to sort of not at all.

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
But I always had the feeling that if I looked
a little bit too hard, i'd see it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
That's as close as I came, except for the time
when I had those recurring dreams as a child where
I saw these big black objects coming towards me at
night in our home in Brooklyn.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
And this was limited to one specific house in the
Brownsville section of Brooklyn. If you went back there today,
you'd probably call it a combat zone. I don't think
you'd have to want to come back there or visit
there without an arm guard, so I don't intend to
do it. Probably the house has long since torn down.
I'd probably say that's a good possibility. So, Mike, going

(01:10:45):
back to the blog that you have up where you
talk about these kind of bits of serendipity and little
bits of oddness, elaborate on this. How do you think
I mean there's some interesting story is on this blog
and these issues of synchronicity. You know, there are a

(01:11:06):
lot of people who think that if you go looking
for connections between things, you'll find them just because of
the virtue of the fact that you're looking for them.
So in you thinking about this stuff and considering it
in your own life, what kind of internal filters do
you do you use to try to differentiate between things
that maybe well maybe it will just be coincidence or

(01:11:30):
serendipity versus things that might have a stronger kind of
a connection.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
That's a great question, and that's actually something that I
do battle with in my own in my own head
as far as how to make sense of these things.
I go back to like what Leo Sprinkle, who has
been so good to me and so great he's been
in uh, you know, he says it doesn't really matter,
you know, but what what you do with it information
is what matters. And and I think the synchronicity is,

(01:11:59):
you know, it would be I think it would be
mistake to like put too much weight into them, you know,
like I'm not gonna have some simple, little funny, little
uh event take place, and then you know, I'll not
start a religion about it. But I certainly can take
note of it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:12):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:13):
I think the way I like to look at it
is it's like, well, if it is the universe telling
me to pay attention, is the universe just kind of
winking at me in kind of a playful way. And
that seems to be the way it's playing out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
And as I think the universe is playing one gigantic
joke on all of us. Very true. We have no
idea what to do about it. I have my my Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:12:33):
There's a fellow I'm I'm like, you know, who's helping
me out with like the ongoing research I'm doing, and
he doesn't really have that much knowledge of the UFO thing,
and he thinks it's fascinating, but his take on it
is is uh. And he says, you know, sometimes I
put you know, peanut butter on the dog's tongue. You know,
I just do it because I think it's funny. And
in essence he's you know, the insinuation is that you know, like, yeah,
they're just you know, they're just messing with us. They

(01:12:54):
just think it's funny, and that kind of plays into
the trickster thing.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
It also comes to maybe they don't care you know,
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):
I yeah, this is like now you're like you're adding
anthropomorphic emotions to something that's almost unknowable. I don't. I
mean do they care? I mean who knows? I can't.
I mean, like, you know, any given day, I could
say they care deeply, and then the next day I
could say they're like, you know, they're they're heartless bastards.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Well, you know the one thing that John Keel had
said many years ago, and he talked of a supreme
being a computerized thought process or computerized device or antity
or being, but he felt it was insane.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):
So not only was.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
A computerized it was an insane computer.

Speaker 3 (01:13:36):
And it's not like, for example, those of you who
have personal computers MAC or PC, you sometimes think they
are insane.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
And to be.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
Blunt about it, you got a lot of crazy people
who program, and you got to be very creative, very intuitive.
It's not just someone who knows math who can create
computer programs.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
You have to have a lot of talent.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
So there is that level of creativity and sanity. It's
part of programs. Sometimes you think computers go crazy because
the people who program them are maybe a little bit crazy,
and those like David and myself who talk about them
are probably just as crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
You have to recognize entropy. I mean, any piece of
computer software is a very complex thing, especially large applications,
and operating system is the biggest, most complex system of all.
And what I've told people for years is that it's
a miracle that any of the stuff runs at all period,
much less have it run consistently. So I think that

(01:14:37):
there are lessons there to be learned in terms of
understanding the nature of reality as well, that we expect
everything to work in a predictable way, and it's pretty
clear that the universe is very entropic in many aspects
of its makeup. That things sometimes you just happen and
there is no logic behind them, at least not any
kind of logic that our ways of thinking can discern.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Our old friend Alan Greenfield said once, I am the
god of physics, and I have changed the rules.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
Mike, Oh, and I'll add that if this was you know,
I think the simplistic kind of anthropomorphizing of the phenomenon
is that we're dealing with little scientists that are a
lot like us in a way. You know, they you know,
they travel in a little metal craft and instead of
flying into Yellowstone to study grizzly bears like we do,

(01:15:28):
you know, they get on their metal spaceship and fly
to Earth and then they do they do, you know, studies.
They're just a little bit farther down the road than
we are, so so they seem very advanced and scientific.
And if that were the case, and maybe a percentage
of this phenomenon it can be summed up like that.
But if that were the case, like the events at Laughlin,

(01:15:49):
at the UFO Congress in Laughlin, would have been really narrow,
you know, you would have had just a very thin
level of a little a little uh compressed amount of
research going on, and it would all fit that, that
hypothesis and that. But it's not like that at all.
It is so all over the map and so wildly

(01:16:11):
divergent from one speaker to the next, from one conversation
to the next. It's wildly divergent in a way that
the little flying saucer or the little metal spaceship doesn't fit.
It's something weird or it's something more complex. And I
have no way to prove that or anything. It's just
anecdotal from just sort of immersing myself in it in

(01:16:32):
the last three years, and I at a loss to
really know that little the computer thing is a nice analogy,
but somehow that commuter computer thing is like, you know,
there's spiderwebs connecting that all over the place to you know,
to pair normal to you know, dark nightmare type visions
and I don't know where to you know, how to

(01:16:52):
keep my feet on level ground. A lot of times
in this phenomenon, maybe you're not meant.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
To human beings. I think in order to understand their universe,
they have to compartmentalize everything. It's this is the process
of deductive reasoning. Is that you have to put things
into boxes. It's the only way to create any sense
of organization. And you know, into that you bring all

(01:17:16):
of your cultural conditioning into that, you bring the limitations
of your own understanding of things into that. You bring
your own prejudices, and we all have them. And this
is something that when then people they filter out what
it is they want to hear, they filter out what
they want to see, and just not to go off topic,
but when I read online some of the things that

(01:17:40):
people write about the para cast or I go and
listen to other radio shows where people will talk about
the para cast, the way that we get pigeonholed. You
know that we're the tough show that people on here
they're going to get ripped to pieces, and that we
always after the show, we tear them apart. And I
go back and I look at if you actually listen

(01:18:01):
to the show, and you think, okay, well, how many
times have we actually had those post mortems, Especially like
in the last two years of the show, We've done
very few of them, But people basically only pick up
what they want to, and in terms of understanding just
talking about the topic of UFOs, it's so much easier

(01:18:22):
to just say extra terrestrial aliens coming here. It's the
lowest common denominator. It's the path of least resistance. It's
the one that doesn't require any setup because everybody already
has been conditioned and doctrinated into this idea. And then
when you have people like Jacques Valet, who early on

(01:18:44):
start to propose other potential explanations. Basically everybody, when I
say everybody, the core of certainly the UFO research field
at the time, came out against Valet very strongly, so
he went from being you know, respected researcher to fringe
element because he brought up this idea of the extraterrestrial

(01:19:08):
hypothesis being too simple to explain what he was studying,
what he was coming up with, and people get very
uncomfortable outside of their comfort zone.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
I did a lot of that, David, in the nineteen
sixties and seventies when I had a small UFO magazine,
I would write articles that would take you out of
your comfort zone, way out. And my ex wife, Geneva Hagen,
in case some of you have seen her participation in
the Powercast forums, she wrote quite a bit about other

(01:19:41):
things that would generate searches for understanding of reality.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Kane and I'm with the Coalition for Freemom of Information,
and you are listening to the paracast with gene Steinberg
and David Bienne.

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
We're trying to understand reality with Mike Clelland who was
a listener, an experiencer, a blogger, went to Laflin, Nevada
to look for answers and maybe got a few there
and it wasn't just a UFO conference for him.

Speaker 4 (01:20:22):
Well here, I'm gonna this is just this dovetails pretty nice.
I'm gonna tell a little story. This goes back to
last year's conference. There was a woman named Dolores Cannon.
She did a presentation last year, and I talked about
her a little bit earlier. She does this sort of
hypnotherapy thing where she gets this channeled information from her patients.
It's all very new agy but I sat in the

(01:20:44):
in the audience watching her last year, and I was
really impressed. I was kind of drawn into it. And
she's a you know, once again, she's a very sweet
grandmother character. And I am somehow smitten by that, and
I find I can relate to that really well. And
so I'm sitting in the audience. She gives us talk
and I'm listening, and in the middle of the talk,
she says, she describes as far as I know, very clearly.

(01:21:05):
She describes you know. She said, and now this is
the pattern that I've seen. There are men in their
mid forties who are coming forward now in a very
dramatic way with their stories. And these men have had
dramatic sightings in the nineteen seventies, they had depression in

(01:21:26):
the night when they were in their thirties, and now
they're coming forward telling their story and sharing their stories
with in a way that is, you know, to share
with the world in essence, and they're performing some duty.
And she said this, and I sat in the audience
sitting like, oh my god, here I am like doing
this documentary and here I am like, you know, like
trying to you know, make sense of this, and I'm like,

(01:21:47):
she is describing me. So the the talk concludes, you know,
I could just walk right up to her at her
desk and I asked her about this. I said, listen,
I kind of you know, she was sitting there and
I said, you know, I'd love to ask some questions.
The thing you talked about where you talked about men
in their forties coming forward now and all those things,
that matches me perfectly. And she looked at me and

(01:22:07):
she kind of she was kind of evasive, and I
didn't quite understand why, and it kind of intimidated me,
and I never really followed up on it. And so
fast forward to the conference, and this is stuck in
my mind, this this pattern that she was talking about, like,
oh god, what does this mean. Fast forward to the
Culture of Contact conference where I meet David and I

(01:22:28):
sit down with him and you and I talk and
we kind of go through the checklist, the same one
that the Laura's Cannon went through, and like you and
I matched pretty close. Yeah, And you know, I remember
even asking you, like when did you start the para
cast and you're like, oh, about two and a half
years ago. And that was exactly when I stepped into
the to this sort of role of self examination of
myself where a little video film crew has been following

(01:22:50):
me around, you know, as I talked to Bud Hopkins
and things, and then at the same conference, all of
a sudden, they're going to, oh, now it's time to
go and watch this documentary. So we walk into a
room and we watched this documentary. It's ninety minutes long.
And the documentary is exactly like the documentary I wanted
to produce or I wanted to you know, be part

(01:23:10):
take part of. I won't go into it now, but
the documentary that I've been involved in has been a
little bit stalled out lately, but it's taken a very
different turn early on in the production. So I watched
this documentary. It's exactly the documentary I felt compelled to
make about two and a half years ago, three years ago.
And then I walk up to the director afterwards. At

(01:23:30):
this point, I'm kind of, you know, I'm so far
down the rabbit hole that I just I don't waste
any time. I pretty much say hell to you. And
the director says he's forty seven and I'm forty six.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
So I asked him, have you.

Speaker 4 (01:23:40):
Had any UFO type abduction experiences? And he says, oh, yeah,
And then I asked him any history of depression.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
He said yeah. And then I asked him.

Speaker 4 (01:23:53):
When did you get inspired to do this documentary and
he said about three years ago, two and a half,
three years ago. So it was unsettling. I was kind
of weirded out. So this whole thing with the Dolores
Cannon thing really bugged me. You can just go online
and for nineteen ninety five you can order a DVD
of the talks that they have at the UFO Congress. So, I,

(01:24:16):
you know, I give my credit card and a week later,
I get a little DVD in the mail and it's
the Dolores Cannon talk that I sat through, which I
remember I enjoyed. So I immediately open this package up. I
pop it into my DVD player. I sit there in
front of the TV and for an hour and a half.
I watch this discussion waiting for the point where she
talks about this little pattern that I match, and she
never says it. What she never says it? Well, no,

(01:24:41):
wait a minute, this is the same thing you sat through.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
This is the same thing.

Speaker 4 (01:24:44):
She's wearing, the same dress. I remember all the pieces,
except you know, it's like it's totally like, you know,
she's introduced. They say, welcome to the UFO COI Verse
February two thousand and eight. She sits there. I remember
exactly the people who are asking the questions. At the end,
they're on camera, walking up to the microphone. It's like
really low grade, you know, sort of DVD production. You know,

(01:25:04):
it's just a little simple two camera set.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Up, so you don't think they edited something here.

Speaker 4 (01:25:08):
Maybe she does, in fact talk about a man in
his mid forties, but she talks about actually he's in
his fifties, when by the time she talks about it,
but she talks about him being it's something totally different.
But she does talk about a man it's in his
late forties, early fifties. So I don't understand at all
what happened. So I'm not kidding. I went back to

(01:25:30):
her and asked her about this experience, excuse you about
the checklist that she had given, you know, this pattern
that she had seen, and she acted weird. It acted
sort of evasive in essence, she like, didn't really get
what I was asking because she had never said it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
Hmm, It's incredibly odd that is have this memory. You
have this memory, this distinct memory of her saying this
in that talk. You have a memory of your emotional
reaction to this. Now and let's smodify this here that
you know, the memory is an imperfect and sometimes fluid thing,

(01:26:07):
no doubt, right, So it's certainly possible that your memory
of what you sat through might have been influence, even contaminated,
by your own internal thought processes that might have been
happening at the time. You might have been hearing her
say certain things, and in your mind, you're joining these

(01:26:30):
things together, and you're making connections in your mind while
she's talking, and at the end of the whole thing,
in your mind there is a bit of a of
a blurring between what she was saying and the connections
that you were making in your mind while she was
saying certain things, perhaps triggering certain memories in you. Perhaps

(01:26:55):
having again where what ends up the memory ends up
being a jambalayah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
I have to say that exactly the little mental exercise
you just went through, I've gone through that, and I've
said like that, that's how it must have happened, you know,
just exactly what you said is like, Okay, that's how
I you know, that's the only way I can explain
it by just doing it, you know, pretty much agreeing
one hundred percent with what you just said is how
it must have played out. But I it feels weirder

(01:27:28):
than that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
This is the reason that when I talk about my
experiences on the parent cast, I try to really limit
them to things where I have a co witness, because
I acknowledge and I recognize that memory can be something
that isn't absolute, and in fact, very often our memories

(01:27:50):
are heavily influenced by a variety of factors. Based on
my research and understanding of how memory even works, so
I don't necessarily trust certain personal experiences of mine in
terms of the memories I have of them, and I've
refrained in many cases from discussing certain experiences. And a

(01:28:14):
few shows ago I intimated that there were some experiences
that I've had that maybe I have or haven't talked
about on the show, and it's when we did the
Stephen Bassett episode and I talked about seeing something at
very close proximity. There was a flurry of activity on
the forums and people saying, well, you know, David, what happened?

(01:28:36):
Tell us? And what I did was I came out
and I said, look, I talked about being within close
proximity of whatever this technology. Was one instance which I
did talk about on the show, which was the siting
I had in Jersey with the UFO hovering over our house.
This is like in nineteen seventy two or so, and

(01:28:57):
I considered that certainly to be something I would qualify
as a close proximity experience. And there's a second experience
that I haven't talked about. And the reason I haven't
talked about it is that it's very problematic in terms
of the fact that I was the only one. I
don't have a co witness for it. That's a b.

(01:29:19):
It's the most single most terrifying experience of my whole
life period. And I've been through some hairy stuff in
my life, but man, this one, it was off the
charts and it was really messed up, and a lot
of my reactions to the experience, like you know, how

(01:29:40):
did I feel the next day were things that didn't
really jive up with my memory of what had happened.
So I had this experience that was very terrifying. Next morning,
I woke up and I was almost too calm, given
my my memory of the emotions that had played out

(01:30:04):
the night before. And I'll just say this now, which
will I think deep in the intrigue. And I'm not
trying to be coy about this. It's because I haven't
really figured out how to talk about this experience yet.
But I strongly I don't suspect I know that this
experience involves, among other things, lost memory. I have lost
memory around this, and I don't know if that lost

(01:30:26):
memory was a result of a shock where essentially my
brain was saying we're not going to remember this because
you can't handle it, or whether it was something more
noxious than that. But I do know that the next morning,
in talking to my parents and trying to convey to
them when had happened, I was too calm about it,

(01:30:49):
and I remember that bothering me. And I was sixteen
years old at the time, and I was a very
old sixteen. You know, when I was sixteen years old,
I also ended up leaving my home. I ended up
moving back to the States and veiling out of the
security of my household and leaving a country. So at sixteen,
I was already a very old sixteen. I had lived

(01:31:12):
through a lot of things and had a lot of
life experience by then, much more so than I think
a typical sixteen year old would have, especially in this
country today. So you know, coming out of that, I
recognize this sense of very strange things not only happening,
but our reactions to them and how we process them

(01:31:33):
after the fact. And that's sort of, as I said,
being a combination of maybe defense mechanisms in our own
minds to deal with these kinds of things, or some
sort of external manipulation. And it's very hard to talk
about these things and describe them to people because in
my own processing and understanding of this stuff, I don't

(01:31:55):
try to draw any conclusions about any of this. I'm
trying to remain as open minded as possible. And this
is also quite frankly affected how I even talk about
these topics with guests that we have and you know,
and I know right now I'm talking a lot, and
so there are probably people listening to the show going,
why aren't you conducting an interview? You know, stop talking.

(01:32:16):
We don't want to know about your stuff. And it's like, well,
even though we do interviews on the show, this show
is a discussion. At least that's the way I like
to approach it. I don't want this show to be
just a thing where people come on and stay, you know,
here's what happened to me, and then we all go ooh,
that's amazing. I think this stuff is worthy of having
a discussion. It's a discussion we just have to be

(01:32:37):
sharing with other people. Well. Also, David, there are too
many shows I think that do the.

Speaker 3 (01:32:42):
Interview format where the host doesn't take a position, the
host doesn't care about having a position. The host simply
asks questions, says gosh, golly, g whiz.

Speaker 5 (01:33:01):
Hi. This is Don Ecker and you are tuned into
the Para cast with Jeene Steinberg and David Viedni.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
Hey, let me tell you.

Speaker 5 (01:33:09):
What you're going to hear Steph here that you probably
won't hear anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Hear that, George Snorri, we.

Speaker 3 (01:33:18):
Have Mike Clellen joining us, But Mike came here for
us to have a discussion, to share information, not just
to sit there and answer questions.

Speaker 4 (01:33:27):
No, And I think that David's story, you know, the
parallels that you and I have are interesting, fascinating to me,
and I relate really strongly to what you just said
in that level of you know, I mean, I feel
like we're in this pragmatic world where you know, like
if you know, if the refrigerator breaks, you know, there's

(01:33:50):
like a little rule book on how to fix it, right,
And this is like so far out of that realm.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
I don't have.

Speaker 4 (01:33:57):
There's no vocabulary that I have to make sense of
some of these experiences that I've dealt with. The only
way I can make sense of it is to say
it doesn't make sense and then and maybe that's all
I'll ever get. And I got to divorce myself from
wanting some sort of answer, because that wanting and that
meeting and that sort of has been a form of

(01:34:20):
anxiety that has been unhealthy. And at the same time,
I feel like I'm on this road and I'm going
down this road and trying to make sense of it,
and the only solace I get is from hearing stories
exactly like what you just said.

Speaker 2 (01:34:35):
Yeah, there's a sense of not being alone in this
when you talk with other people about it, and that's
like why you went to Laughlin to our degree was
to be able to have conversations about this. And one
of the reasons I'm really glad that you've decided to
come back to show, Mike, is that you strike me.
You know, I can say this not having met you
and spent time around you personally, You strike me as

(01:34:57):
someone who is a very reason able, rational person. You're
not jumping to any conclusions about this stuff. You're expressing
in what I think is a sincere way, in a
sincere way, what you feel has happened. I like your
attitude about this, and I'm inspired by it, and my

(01:35:18):
attitude about is now, you know, because I know, as
I said, that there's this reputation the show has that
you know, we're hardcore skeptics and we're not buying any
of the new wage stuff. It's like I've said on
the show before, if people knew more about my background,
people even knew more about my experiences, they might be
surprised at what my belief systems encompass. They're not the

(01:35:40):
typical skeptical belief systems that say, you know, if it's
not hard science, I'm not buying it. As someone who's
a technologist, I'm fully cognizant of the limits of our
science and the limits of our technology, and I think
that people should be a little more humble when saying, well,
if you can't scientifically prove it, It's like, guys, here's

(01:36:01):
a whole lot of stuff you cannot prove by the
typical methods of science. And maybe that what the ultimate
goal is of our existence is to come to some
understanding that the natural reality is more complex than something
you can boil down in a test tube. Maybe things

(01:36:22):
are so complicated that even the limitations of our physical
brains are so are so significant that presented with an
actual reality, this is what's actually going on, we'd say
what we wouldn't even be able to comprehend the basis

(01:36:42):
of what reality is. And this is something that you know.
As I'm getting older, I'm realizing that what I don't
know so dwarfs what I know. And I'm saying this
because of the fact that I have now heard in
various other shows and on the web, people try to
make some statement that, Hey, those parac casts guys, you know,

(01:37:02):
they think they know all the answers, and it's like,
as I said before, is anybody listening to this show
the people who say that, It's like, I don't. I
don't pretend to have answers about anything. At this point.
I've got so many questions, And I think what people
are going to hear on the show in two thousand
and nine is that we're going to have some guests
on and we're going to have some discussions that people

(01:37:24):
might be very surprised about because of the fact that
they all of a sudden potentially make us sound like, hey,
we are those guys going a little cuckoo? Now? Are
they drinking the kool aid? And why I drink that
kool aid? I'll tell you right now. You know where
the kool aid phrase came from, tell you later where
it came from. I know where it came. I know
where it came from.

Speaker 3 (01:37:46):
Yes, it was an evil thing, great kool aid, great
kool aid, purple kool aid, the purple kool Aid.

Speaker 2 (01:37:54):
So no, ultimately we don't know what's going on. Sorry,
Stephen Bassett. You don't have any kind of a handle
on what's going on. And sorry, Stephen Bassett, you listen
to people who are actually certifiably insane, and some of
those people were at the Lovelin. Well don't hold back.

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
Well, that's the problem here is that we go on
there and we say, hey, folks, we don't know the answers,
and really you don't know the answers either, because we
don't have the answers to all these mysteries.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
And yet they say we're pretending to know all the answers.
But what about all the people who.

Speaker 3 (01:38:28):
Go out there and say, hey, we know the Space
Brothers are doing this, we know that we're having this
kind of interaction with ET. We know where the secret
weapons using technology we got from the Aliens. We know
where all that stuff is situated is at Area fifty one,
levels four or at.

Speaker 2 (01:38:48):
Right patters in Air Force Space.

Speaker 3 (01:38:49):
All these people run around loose saying I know, I know,
I know, buy my book, see my lecture, And they're
not catalog or pigeonholed as people who are just out
of their minds because they're claiming they know everything. And
we say, hey, folks, we don't know. We want to learn.
We want to discover what's happened to us or what's

(01:39:09):
happened to other people. We want to explore these mysteries.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
And they say, we're trying to tell you we know everything.
I don't understand it.

Speaker 4 (01:39:17):
I have a friend and he's a uh oh. He
goes to meditation to trees and he's studied under gurus
and he he's uh, he's very influenced by like Ken
wilber So in him. And I go at it, you know,
We'll have like these deep, you know, philosophical conversations and
he'll he'll be confronting it, you know, like the grand
mysteries of the unknown, and he'll be looking at it
through the lens of like you know, Eastern mysticism or

(01:39:40):
or some some meditation teacher that he's worked with, and uh.
And I'll be going at it, like you know, from
these UFO books I've read, and he doesn't quite get it.
He's like, you know, he's like, you need to meditate more.
And I'm like, you need to, like you know, read
some UFO books. And we're we're battling and you know,
soul searching to try to come up with the same
deep answer is that I guess, you know, have plagued

(01:40:01):
just since we you know, stepped out of the climbed
down from the trees. But uh, it's very interesting that
I have somehow or another, gone down this avenue of like,
you know, using the UFO phenomena as a framework for
me to you know, ask the ultimate questions about reality,
and I don't have an answers.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
There are clues all over the place, they really are,
and I think we all need to recognize and acknowledge
that there are clues all over the place, and uh
not that everybody has something useful to add to the conversation.
I don't know if that's necessarily true, but you kind
of have to listen to everybody to figure out what.

Speaker 3 (01:40:41):
The boundaries are. An old friend of mine, plum of
Ready's one of my.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
My true artistic heroes. His tagline really sums this whole
thing up. His tagline is without lies, there can be
no truth. And I think that that is so incredibly
profound and accurate. You know, you you they're there is
this negative positive kind of balance of things where everything

(01:41:09):
is bounded the nature reality is not necessarily bound less.
Things are ultimately bounded by for example, the laws of physics,
though of course, as three dimensional beings, we can actually
only understand I think, a certain degree of the laws
of physics, because there are very probably, I'm not going

(01:41:30):
to say possibly, I'll say very probably, there are laws
of physics that our physicality could never even comprehend because
of the fact that we are, indeed in this state.
At least, we're physical beings, and we'd like to think
that we're more. And sometimes we even have glimpses into

(01:41:52):
that infinite. Sometimes we even have these little insights. And
I think for some people what that does is it
drives I'm crazy and I don't mean to laugh, but
but keep going, you know what I mean. I mean,
I think for some people they have that one little
glimmer and their brains just absolutely cannot process it, and

(01:42:14):
they go nuts. They go nuts, and they basically lose
a hold on reality. And so ultimately, you know, when
people demand things like disclosure, you know, I've set to
bess on this show, and personally, you know, what if
the nature of disclosure, with the nature of what this
is is not something that you expected, well, I don't care,

(01:42:37):
I want it anyway. It's like, yeah, but you're like
the kid that wants to get behind the wheel of
an actual car and drive it. You want to only.

Speaker 4 (01:42:45):
Drive it, like drive it, you know, like on the
highway that's got the precipice right at the edge.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
That's right. It's like, yeah, you want this, but does
that mean that it's going to be good for you?
And this is something I think that as as human beings,
we all have this very strong sense of entitlement and certainly,
you know, nonsense like that that that Book of the
Secret will promote this idea that if you want it,
you deserve it. And it's like, now, you know, on

(01:43:13):
a on a just a logical level, I so don't
buy into that because that, to me, that's petulant children
wanting endless amounts of candy, no matter what's going to
do to their stomachs and their blood sugar and their teeth.
You know, if you let a kid eat candy all
day long, that's what they'll eat all day long. They
won't stop. That good for them, I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:43:32):
So we got to watch out for the candy bars.
I have candy bars. Maybe that's what it is. Also
they're testing us, Oh yeah, what some growth market or
some emerging market for them to sell their mythologies.

Speaker 2 (01:43:46):
It might be just thinking, I have I have one little.

Speaker 4 (01:43:50):
Story to tell, please, and uh so, I you know,
Donal Laughlin, I'm not kidding. I told you about it earlier.

Speaker 2 (01:43:57):
I was.

Speaker 4 (01:43:58):
I was wrapped up in knots and I went down there.
I was totally confused and and I wanted some sort
of you know, some sort of peace of mind. And
I don't have a good answer whether I got it
or not. So I'm driving back. It's a long drive
for me. It's a twelve hour drive back from southern Nevada.
And I've got my iPod and it's playing shuffle songs, right,

(01:44:21):
so it's not me. And then who comes on but
the pair cast with Leo Sprinkle. So it's like, right,
I got this long drive. You know, I'm trying to
make sense of this whole this whole conference. And I
remember I enjoyed that that conversation between you and Leo Sprinkle.
So it's great I get to listen to it again.
I can pay attention. I can pay nice close attention.
I won't be distracted. And the two things that were
bothering me at this conference was obviously, just like the

(01:44:44):
push and pull of like the you know, like my
weird memories versus just trying to get along in this
pragmatic world and how how divergent that is and how
stressful that can be. And the other thing is that
memory of seeing the five gray aliens out my window
is just seems so fantastic. And I have no way
to quantify whether that really happened or not, but I

(01:45:05):
have that memory. So I'm driving home. I'm just north
of Salt Lake City on the Interstate, driving eighty miles
an hour, and along comes this quote. And I'm going
to read this because I actually transcribe this has kind
of flip me out. So the quote is in you're
talking to Leo Sprinkle, And I made it a point
when I got home to transcribe this, and I'm reading

(01:45:26):
it right here. So, David, you say, in my personal experiences,
there are aspects of high strangeness that happened to me
that make me skeptical of my own experiences, truly, and
this has become a dilemma for me in my middle age.
This has become a problem. And then Leo replies, and
I'm listening to this in the car Leo replies, same

(01:45:48):
thing that Mike Clellan tells about himself, that he feels
in a dilemma because on one hand he knows what
he's experienced, but on the other hand, he can't reconcile
that with what's going on around him, and it puts
him in an awkward situation philosophically. So there, Leo Sprinkle
sums up my whole quandary in two sentences. And so

(01:46:09):
I grab the iPod which is on the passenger seat,
and I look at it, and I said, I gotta
I gotta listen to this again when I get home.
So I'm driving eighty miles an hour. I glanced down
at it. It says one two three, so it's like a
one hour twenty three minutes into it. I was like, great,
that's easy to remember. So I get home, I bring
it up on the on my computer and I can
scroll right to one two three. It's really easy. So

(01:46:30):
I actually figure, like, well, what a minute, let me
follow this all the way through. So I go to
one one hour, twenty three minutes and forty five seconds
one two three four five. It's exactly where Leo talks
about me, and he says on one hand, he knows
that he's had his experience one two, three four five,
but on the other hand, he can't reconcile that. So

(01:46:50):
so this is exactly what you're talking about, where people like,
you know, you have these experiences and you think you're
going crazy. And I'm like, oh God, am I am?
I like descending into this, like you know, paranoia of
like seeing little numbs. And so I figure, hey, wait
a minute, I was actually interviewed on the para cast.
I'm going to go look up that interview. So it's
easy to do. I just scroll down on the on
the you know, the things that I've logged on iTunes,

(01:47:11):
and I go to the interview, which was Jesse Marcel
was the first hour, which was great, I thought, and
then I was the second hour, and so I go
one two, three four five, and it's so exactly. So
I listened to the quote and it's me talking and
I'm talking about the other thing that's been bothering me,
and I say, I remember waking up and there was
a bright light filling the room, and my first thought

(01:47:33):
was that it was a light in the driveway. So
I sat up in bed and I have an illustration
of this posted. I sat up in bed and I
look out the window, and I remember seeing one two
three four five quite clearly, five spindly gray aliens with
big bald heads and big black eyes standing outside my window.
So there it is, so there, it is like the
one two three four five again like like that, only

(01:47:54):
two times I'm mentioned on the para cast that it
comes up one two three four five, And it's the
two exact things that are that are like throwing me
into a huge life quandary.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
You know what, we can even go beyond that. That's
got to be an anger for this show.

Speaker 3 (01:48:10):
Except I'm going to quote what mac Tony says about
Mike Clellan's blog, a fascinating new blog delving into his
experiences with strangeness and synchronicity. Mike's humility and painterly attention
to detail are decided assets.

Speaker 2 (01:48:26):
In a world where the very term power romo has
become associated with excessive credulity. Mike Clellan, thank you for
joining us on the Power Cast. Thank you. This is great, absolutely, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:48:40):
The Power Cast with Jean Steinberg and David Pietney is
a production of Making the Impossible incorporated join us next
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Classic Episode: March 22, 2009 — Experiencer Mike Clelland

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Classic Episode: March 22, 2009 — Experiencer Mike Clelland