Classic Episode: May 20, 2007 — Tommy Allison Exposes Starchild - The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
You've a group about power past post gainst burn.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's time we make a pitch for reasonable discourse. It's
a tough one gene in this environment that we live in.
It's tough to have a reasonable discourse because most people
don't seem particularly reasonable, or they are reasonable, but they
get so emotionally wrapped up in things that reason sort
of goes out the window and emotions take over, and

(00:43):
that's always a dangerous path. Well, in politics, of course,
it gets pretty unreasoned at times, certainly in this field
does because we have so many competing factions. We have
the believers, the non believers, the various shades of believers,
each having their own personal belief system, and by the
time you add it all up and you mix it
up in the blender, you get sometimes a pretty difficult situation. Well,

(01:06):
you get the range of human experience. We've talked a
little bit on the show about Robert Anton Wilson, the
writer and philosopher, and I like to think the really
clear headed thinker, though he probably would blanche at that statement,
but Robert Anton Wilson talked about reality tunnels that people
basically perceive reality through a specific set of circumstances that

(01:28):
was about their lives, and Robert Anton Wilson felt that
all reality tunnels presented something of interest to someone trying
to understand the universe, that if you really want to
understand how the universe worked, that you would consider everyone's
reality tunnel or their perception of reality to tell you
something about the universe. Of course, the problem with that

(01:48):
is that nobody can really be purely objective. So even
if you're trying to interpret reality as parts through someone
else's reality tunnel, it's got to go through your reality tunnel.
It's all about perception. When we talk about paranormal stuff,
and you know, just the term paranormal says that it's
outside of the realm of normal experience. The danger with

(02:09):
this is that if you get to the point where
you believe you understand what's going on now, all of
a sudden you are fitting the facts to your vision.
And this is something that we see so much of.
I mean, certainly in the UFO field, there is this
constant argument about are they ets or are they something else?
And I have to tell you at this point, with

(02:31):
all the discussions we've had with our guests and my
own private discussions of people like get Ready to take
a drink, Jeff Ritzman and Mac Tony's who I think
has got to be one of the most fascinating characters
that we've had on the show, and I'm really fascinated
by the kinds of thoughts he's having about this topic,
specifically with regards to quote unquote the et question. We

(02:55):
have to try to remain open minded about any and
all interprets about what this can be because Geane, ultimately,
and I've said this on the show and I'll say
it again, I think if we ever find out the
reality of what UFOs are about, it's going to be
far stranger than anything that anyone possibly anticipated. I'll go

(03:18):
along with that. Yeah, I think that's a real distinct possibility,
and it's I'd like to think that, well, you know,
you can think anything, you can believe anything. That's the problem.
I'd like to think that we as humans have the
ability to understand all of these phenomenon. Now, Ultimately, I
think a lot of people might think that that's just
not feasible, that these things are outside of our ability

(03:42):
to understand anything. And the thing is, I know that
with what I've been through in my own life Gene,
with the experiences that I've had and the things that
I've seen, I have way more questions than I have answers.
But I have to try and remain optimistic in hope
that maybe some way to get some understanding, to get
some answers to some of the questions that come up

(04:06):
in my mind. But I guess as we do the
show more and more and as we speak to more
and more people, sometimes I think I'm losing a little
bit of that hope. I think that as I dig
deeper into this and as we continue to explore these topics,
either I'm going to get more confused about trying to
understand the things that happen to me, or ultimately I'm

(04:26):
going to get really frustrated. And I know that in
speaking to people who have been involved in this for
a long time, there is a very high level of frustration.
At the same time, people who are interested in these
topics keep coming back. I mean, you've been interested in
the stuff all your life. That's a lot of years. Yeah,
but it's something that you keep coming back to. In

(04:47):
most of my adult life, I've squelched all of my
interests in this stuff. I've kind of put it in
a little bag and put that bag away because I
realized that trying to have coherent discussions about this be
really difficult because of the fact that the field is
polarized into the debunkers and the believers. And it's sad

(05:08):
that it has to be that way, because what I'm
finding is that we're making enemies on both sides. We're
right in the middle of this thing, and look, I
don't know what's going to end up happening. It might
get to the point where we have a real hard
time getting people to come on the show because of
the fact that we are, I think, trying to have
a centrist view. But at the same time, you and
I are human beings, and we have our own opinions,

(05:31):
and we have emotions, and I know that in many episodes,
I've gotten very emotion about certain topics, especially when we
start to deter into politics. I mean, that's where my
colors really start to show, and some of the listeners
don't want to hear about politics. But I think that
it's actually valuable to talk about politics when talking about
the paranormal, because I think there are lots of areas

(05:53):
of crossover where you have people with vested interest with
their own private agendas, who people believe in a candidate,
or people believe in a certain political party, or people
believe in a certain political doctrine. And ultimately what happens
is that when you see these things in practice, maybe
perhaps you get another understanding or a different appreciation of

(06:17):
what's really going on. And I think a lot of
the same things can be said for the paranormal field
as well. In case of politics, a lot of times
people vote not because they thought out the issues, because
they come from a long line of Democrats or Republicans
or whatever right. They vote what their family voted, which
you know, I guess is as valid as anything, but

(06:39):
they don't give a thought to what they're doing. In
terms of the UFO field, people assume, Okay, it's either
spaceships or not real. There's no broad middle where there
are many other possibilities for UFOs that may encompass many
different variations. You don't hear that. You don't hear that
at all. It's either going to be space or nothing. Well,

(07:01):
I think you do hear it, but you have to
search for it. And this is the hard part is
spending effort and time trying to discover what these alternate
sources of information are, who these alternate voices might belong to.
That requires efforts, Gene. And the thing is that for
most average people, I think it boils down to simply

(07:23):
not having the time or bandwidth to deal with these things.
And you know, I mean, you're a parent, You've got
a child though he's off at college. I know that. Like,
my girlfriend has three kids who are all younger, and
she's really fascinated about these topics. But she only has
so many hours in the day to herself at all,
and is she going to spend that time looking into

(07:46):
these things? No, I mean ultimately, at this point, the
time that she and I spend together, I talked to
her about the guests we have on the show. She's
actually also a religious listener to the show. Hi, Sezi,
how you doing well? You know, you get to call
her Susan, not Susie buddy, excuse me, Hey, she's my Susie,
but you can you can call her Susan. Actually, you

(08:08):
can call her doctor Susan. It sounds like we're going
to do a TV show. Doctor Susan will provide her
expert advice on the things that go bump in the night.
God knows she could. She has some really interesting thoughts
on a lot of the topics that we talk about.
But the thing is, as I said, I mean, she
only has X amount of time to herself every day

(08:29):
and this is not at the top of her list.
You know, you and I are maybe are are a
little more obsessed with this stuff, and that's why we
make the time for it. But I didn't spend a
lot of time thinking about these topics most of my
adult life. Chane's really only in the last year and
a few months that I've really indulged any time on

(08:49):
this topic or on these topics, I should say, because
it's all the different things we talk about. You know,
we so often talk about things relating to UFOs on
the show, but really there are so many any tendrils
the paranormal world, and for example, our talk with David Sounnenshein,
I was so happy we were able to have them on.
I'm so happy that people were able to find out

(09:10):
about Arigo and doctor Fritz. But isn't it interesting that
looking on the forums, there was a lot of negative banter,
people saying, you know, I've never heard of this guy.
Why should I believe this? This all sounds ridiculous. This
sounds like those Charlattan's in Korea palming the chicken livers,
or the Philippines, actually not Korea, but the Philippines where
this is. The faith healing scam is pretty big. But

(09:33):
at the same time, I'm so glad we got to
talk about Arigo because, as was said on the show,
this is one of the best documented paranormal cases of
the twentieth century, and just because people don't know about
it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Well, that's the things
we do on the show exact, is to explore the
things that you don't hear elsewhere discussed either in public

(09:54):
and paranormal radio in message boards. We try to be different.
In fact, the guests who's coming up next? I guess
there is somebody who has some interesting points of view,
and he has not been on all the other shows.
He hasn't been on the talk show circuit. I don't
think he's been on any of the shows. And it's
kind of interesting how we found out about him. He
came onto our forums and this guy is a very

(10:15):
talented artist and creative who rose to a challenge and
then discovered things that maybe he didn't want to know
about in terms of the personalities and the players in
the paranormal world. So it's going to be very interesting
our talk with him today coming up next on the
Forwer cast of Repeating, We're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Which.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
In York.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Tommy Allison, why are you on the Power cast? Or
maybe I should say, how did you come to be
interested in things that go bump in the night or
paranormal stuff kind of stuff we talk about on the show.

Speaker 5 (11:04):
The reason why I got interested in this sort of
thing was as a kid, my father and I we
would see these kind of things, and my you know,
it wasn't anything unusual to see these. I mean, I
shouldn't say it wasn't anything unusual. But one time my
father and I was about six years old, we were
out fishing and we were it. I think it was

(11:24):
up close to the Canal, which is a little spot
north of Genesee, Illinois, And I want to say this
is probably nineteen seventy five, seventy six something like that. Anyway,
we were fishing and we every once in a while
you'd see something in the sky. You first think it
was a plane or whatever. But anyway, this thing was
just kind of a bright light and I couldn't tell

(11:47):
how big it was. I mean, memory is what it is.
But I remember that that was the source of a
lot of discussions with my dad, because my dad would
tell me that him and his dad would see similar
things when he lived in you know, Illinois when he
was a kid. His dad had seen things when he
would go fishing or be out and about and things

(12:07):
like that, and they were all kind of similar. You know,
either it was like the proverbial black disc or it
was or if it was just you know, the light
that you couldn't see what it was in the dark.
People talk about generational things with you know, families all
having kind of similar experiences or whatnot, and I think,
to a certain extent that is true. But that's that's

(12:29):
only part of the reason why I really got interested
in this. Because when I was a little kid at
the next door neighbor and I we had we both
had just got done plan or whatever. Both of us
had coincidentally left our bikes in the front yard and
it was dinner time, so we were both going outside
to go take our bikes. Back in and we both
looked up the street and there was this pinkish person.

(12:52):
It was walking up the street to us, and we
ran back inside the house. She went to her house,
I went to mine, and we yelled at her parents
and there's something outside. We couldn't explain it, whatever it is,
you know, all this stuff. Get a camera and by
the time I go back outside. You know, actually me
and my parents and my friend and her parents are
both outside, all looking up the street. See nothing. There's
nothing there but the unusual. It is something that I

(13:16):
find interesting because so much that we see is, you know,
what we are told is reality. But what if there's
something more, you know, and if if there is more,
then it would be it would be ridiculous not to
investigate it, because I mean, the more knowledge you have
about your surroundings, the better you are able to deal

(13:36):
with it. And but anyway, this is all.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
I'm going to ask you a question, Tommy. And you say,
a pink person, Yeah, it was, it was. It was.
It wasn't really defined.

Speaker 5 (13:44):
It was more like this glowing pinkish thing and it
looked like a person, was shaped like a person, but
it obviously wasn't a person. And because of it, it
was like literally glowing, and it was just it was
probably I would say, no more than about sixty seventy
feet from us when we saw it, and it was

(14:07):
really weird too because it was I'd give you the
name of the other person. She would tell you the
story we you know, she's asked me several times since
you know this happened. You know, if if I still
remembered it, and I said absolutely, you know, it's not
something you see every day. And and then like I said,
within you know, no more than a minute, it was gone.

(14:29):
It wasn't there anymore.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
You both saw it, thummy, and you both saw you
confirm that you both saw the same thing.

Speaker 5 (14:36):
Absolutely, I would. I know that she got married, and
I would give it her name a number if I
had it. But I know where she lives and you
could probably get in touch with her if you want
to develop, you know, verify my story. But it's one
of those things where you you know, when you see
something that makes you question things, it stays with you.

(14:56):
It saves me your entire life. It's like, you know,
it's no different than the people that say that you know,
they talk to dead people or see ghosts or any
of that other stuff. You know, it's just, uh, it
is one of those things where you all of your
perceptions are changed, you know. I mean, if if this exists,
then we'll wait a minute, then you know the obviously
right exactly And uh and I've had a discussion earlier

(15:18):
with with David on the phone about that sort of thing,
and uh, the unusual is something that I I take
great interest in it because the work that I do
as as an artist is largely based in that sort
of thing. It's uh, I make art work of superheroes
and well now aliens and things like that. And uh

(15:40):
and I used to draw comic books for a number
of years and uh and and I've been it's still
light of course. But this sort of thing is you know,
the things that are are fantastic compared to what you
would you would you know by the word fantastic, I
mean you know fantasy kind of things. These are things
that you talk about that are you know, everybody looks
at is not being real, but what if you know

(16:02):
they really are. You know, we had people like H. G.
Wells writ and stuff you know, way back in the
day about you know, invaders some other planets and time
travel and all this other stuff. And yet we're starting
to see some of this stuff today, and it's starting
to look more and more like, you know, we may
not have just been a science fiction writ he may
have been onto something a little more interesting.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, some people suggest that as she Wells was using
that as a metaphor for various types of political commentary.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Question about don't forget to visit our farms where you
can talk to listeners on the forearm.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
You're in the Powercast with Geen Steinberg and David Bietney.
We're welcoming artist, and I guess we'll call him experience,
Sir Tommy Allison to our microphones, David Well Is Tommy
really of the mind that he wants to be called
an experience? I mean, if you called me an experience, right,
I hate you, Tommy? Are you an experiencer?

Speaker 5 (17:26):
Things that aliens have visited me? Oh? Well, I can
tell you some stories about some art directors I've known.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
But speaking of which you just mentioned by the way
that you've done, well, we know about our directors and
some editors I know, but that's another story, David, and
I can share stories of editors you mentioned comic books
any that we know about.

Speaker 5 (17:48):
By the way, Well, I used to do a lot
of ghosting for some people that work for some different companies,
and I'm not going to say who will, but I've
done some of my own stuff. I discover work for
this one company called Artistic Productions Limited. They did the
story this book called Siphon s T Y P h
O N did a cover for that, and I've been

(18:09):
working for about the last six years on my own stuff.
I've got a book that I'm working on called The
Tween and it's about recommitant genetics and cloning. But that's
that's the only professional comic book work I could say
that I can. I can actually they claim to.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
So by ghosting, you mean basically doing freelance when people
can't meet.

Speaker 5 (18:27):
Their deadlines and there's an opportunity to, I guess, you know,
extort money out of some people. I'll, you know, I'll
do the work. I don't get credited, but i'll I
get to do the work, and I do get paid
pretty well.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
So it's kind of like those script doctors that come
at the last minute get paid a lot of money
to try to coherent.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
It's a lot like that. It's a lot like that.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
But you're a panel doctor.

Speaker 5 (18:51):
I am. I am many things. I work as a
sculptor too, And then I like, I said, I've done
some comic book work, and I've you know, done some
special effects were for a couple of independent companies and
a couple of independent films, and it's not so bad.
It's you know, being an artist is a good vocation. Unfortunately,

(19:12):
they don't really look at it in the same way
when you talk about this kind of stuff, like when
they talk about credible witnesses. You know, a friend of
mine and I we were driving back from Detroit in
nineteen ninety seven and we saw some things that we
couldn't quite explain in the sky. It was the same
night that they had the lunar eclipse. TheInk was March
twenty third, nineteen ninety seven. We were driving back and

(19:34):
we saw these three lights in the sky and they
did some pretty weird stuff. And there they were, like
equidistance from each other on the horizon, and right as
the lunar eclipse happened, one of them just did like
this this arc over top of the other one and
went straight up into the sky. And then the other
one went straight up into the sky, and then this

(19:54):
other one went to the left and it was disappeared.
You know, we didn't see it again. And the thing
of it is is that, you know, if we were
to have said, oh my god, we saw a UFO,
we're not going to think they were probably looking so well,
where were you guys coming from? Well, we just came
from a comic book convention. And then you would then
they would ask you what do you do? I make
stuff up for money. Yeah, I create things that you know,

(20:18):
for fantasies for money, and and so immediately your credibility
goes through out the window. I don't know how Whitley
Strieber does it, but I myself would probably not have
that much credibility.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Well, he took a lot of flack, I think for it,
and I think there's still people who think that because
he was a horror fiction author, that somehow that got
mixed up with his material.

Speaker 5 (20:40):
Shall we say, well, I mean, when you know, getting
back to the original question to what I want to
be called an experience er, probably probably not. I mean
when you say, well, they immediately assumed the worst that
you've you know, taken one for the team and been touched,
you know, in places that no real man has gone before.
And that's not something that I would I would like

(21:02):
claim to if if I had been abducted by aliens,
I think I would like to know, but I would
I tell everybody no, I would keep that very much
to myself.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well, the thing is, and I think people who are
listening to the show need to understand that when you
live through a paranormal experience, when you see a UFO,
and let's qualify what a UFO is, it's an unidentified
flying object. So you know, we don't know where these
things come from, we don't know why they're here, we
don't know what the agenda is. We know that they're flying.
It's an object that's unidentified. That's what we know. When

(21:36):
these things happen. I can speak for myself and saying
I never chose these experiences. I can't even really say
I wanted this. These things just happen, and you know,
what are you supposed to do with it once it
happens to you. I mean, I guess for a lot
of people what they do with it is nothing. They
just sit on it, they don't talk about it. They're
afraid that people are going to think they're crazy, and

(21:57):
ultimately what ends up happening is I think for a
lot of these people, it eats at them. It kind
of can not necessarily consumes them inside, but it's this
nugget inside of them that's never resolved. And speaking for myself,
the things that I've seen and I've witnessed have brought
me to the point where I find myself compelled to
speak about these things. It's almost like a form of

(22:18):
therapy to talk about it. And I'm not going to
claim that I've gotten any deeper understanding of what was
happened to me by talking about it, but it's nice
to know that other people have seen things too. There's
some amount of security in numbers.

Speaker 5 (22:31):
Well, I mean, this is where I'm getting it, just
so you understand. I mean, I have some photos of
some things that I have seen. I have some video
footage of the one particular thing that I've seen, and
they are what they are. They are as tangible to
me as the wind. That's the problem, you see. I
can see what it is, but I can't touch it.

(22:53):
I can't prove that it exists beyond that. Now, it's
about being intellectually honest about what you've seen or what
you've experienced, a lot of people when they talk about
their experiences having been with you know, aliens, your god
knows what, almost ninety nine point nine percent of the
time they have no physical proof. They might have a
mark that they can't explain, they have no artifacts, though

(23:15):
they have no real proof, tangible proof. Now I'm not
saying that, you know, absence of proof is not proof
of absence. But to me, I'm very much an objectivist,
and for me to say that I've experienced something, you know,
I can tell you what I've seen, I can tell
you what you know other things have happened, But to

(23:35):
offer up any kind of tangible proof or even even
from my own mind, you know, it's like a lot
of people when they talk about their experiences there, they
talk about it from hypnotic for a regression, and we
don't know to what degree the fallibility of that is
a lot of people. I mean, you can hypnotize people
to do certain things, but you you know, are you

(23:56):
really recovering memories? I'm not one hundred percent sure about that.
So though you know, from that regard, I'm on the fence.
I mean, you know, if you were to ask me
to tell you a story about how it was abducted
by aliens, right if you paid me enough money, I
would tell you a story that would be convincing beyond
all get out, because that is that is the nature
of things. People will tell stories, you know, to communicate things.

(24:19):
They do that. Everybody does it. You know, if you've
ever told a white lie in your life, you're capable
of talking about how you were abducted by aliens. When
you talk about this sort of thing as being an experiencer, though,
you know, some people they make money from it and
that's the reason why they do it. Another reason is catharcism.
You know, you want to feel good about an experience

(24:40):
and then you know, kind of that way you don't
share it, therapy, that kind of thing. And then there's
the people that like myself. You know, I see things
every once in a while, you know, but I have
to remain objective about it until they land in my
backyard and you know, give me a box of cookies
or something like that to show.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
The Handcakes, pancakes.

Speaker 5 (25:01):
Another one of my LEAs misses. You know, it's as
if you know, you guys are reading my mind. Of course,
as you do read my mind, then that means you
guys are part of the alien problem.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
We're part of the conspiracy. But before we've explored conspiracies
in war detail.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
You're in the para cast Geen Steinberg and David Betney.
You never know what's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Next you're in the paracast with Geen Steinberg and David Beetney,
and we have Tommy Allison joins us. He's an artist
and he's had experiences, not an experiencer that which is
he's had sightings and such, and we're talking about that
and his background, and we're going to tell you a
little bit about his encounter with one of our former guests.

(25:55):
Very shortly before we do that, Tommy, you say you
have video footage. Tell us about that episode and tell
us about the footage please.

Speaker 5 (26:03):
Yeah, I can tell you. I can tell you what
time it happened. It was about three o'clock in the morning.
If I wanted to, I could probably go dig it
out of the box. That sent a box and feather stuff.
We moved, so everything kind of changed. But anyway, this
happened here on August nineteenth, two thousand and four, and
there was an article in the newspaper about it too.
It was a big, bright light in the sky and

(26:24):
a kid, you know, I've never seen anything this bright
in the sky at night, and you know, even on
the telescope, and this thing was just unbelievably bright. And
it was shaped kind of like an ice cream cone almost.
It had this, you know, kind of a point and
then it was rounded on the top and like I said,
it looked like an ice cream cone. And it was
in the sky for probably about twenty to twenty five minutes.

(26:47):
My wife and I were pulled up into our driveway
and got out of the car. We didn't even notice
this thing until you know, got out of the car
and I saw it. I was like, what the hell
is that? You know, I just sat there looking at it,
and my wife this was like, you know, she kind
of disregarded the whole thing. And so I go back
outside of the camcorder and I videotaped this thing for
about another fifteen twenty minutes, and it didn't move. It

(27:11):
appeared to get brighter, and it appeared to get closer
for a minute, and then it would, you know, kind
of go back to its normal vibrancy and its normal brightness,
and then it just winked out like it just like
like it shut off. It disappeared, and it didn't like
you know, jettison left or right or whatever. It just
it just disappeared. And and so anyway, I have the

(27:33):
videotape sitting here, like I said. But anyway, my wife
the next day, she's like, you know, hey, you know
your your little thing you saw in the sky. I'm like, yeah,
well it's in the paper. And I about fell down.
I was really surprised that it actually made the paper.
It was on page B four of the Star Tribute
in Friday, August twenty of two thousand and four.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
What did people reports seeing the same thing? I mean
where the report?

Speaker 5 (27:56):
Yeah, about a couple hundred a couple thousand people said
that they'd seen it. But there were reports, and they
were all consistent. A lot of people actually took video
footage too as well, and everything looks kind of the same,
you know, except for mine was at three o'clock in
the morning, but this was at Most of them were
day sightings, which was which I thought was.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Kind of seen during the day that day, and then
you saw it at night.

Speaker 5 (28:18):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
You try to contact any of the other people who
had shot footage or head photos of this thing, they
had no idea.

Speaker 5 (28:25):
I contacted the Star Tribune and they put me in
touch with somebody. I lost several voicemails, but they never
got back in touch with me. You know, when one
person sees it, that's fine, you know, they think it's
a hoax. When a thousand people see it, it suddenly,
you know, garners people's attention.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
That's very different. What color was the light, Tommy? Was it?
It was like this bluish white light. It looked it
was white.

Speaker 5 (28:50):
It was bright white in the center, but it was
like bluish around the edges, you know, kind of a
blue halo around it.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
When you say it was an ice cream cone shape,
are you saying that the bottom of it was that
did with relation to the top.

Speaker 5 (29:01):
Well, you know, we're talking about ice cream cones here.
You're talking about stereotypical. It's you know, like the big
round of scoop of ice cream on the top and
pointy cone on the bottom. But it was it was
kind of a short, stubbier cone this thing. Yeah, that's uh,
I use I use the term, you know, ice cream cone.
I'm trying to scan something for you because I'm gonna
go ahead and uh, I'm gonna go and send you

(29:22):
send you the actual article. Is that way you can
see it.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Well, I just think it's useful for people to try to,
you know, have sort of clearer visual And when you
say ice cream cone, of course, in different parts of
the country ice cream cones, you know, depending who you
go to that you know, some are going to be
shorter and stubbier, some will be longer. But just in
terms of the general shape, you're saying that the bottom
part the actual cone was not quite as long and
distended as people I think would normally think of an
ice cream cone as being right.

Speaker 5 (29:46):
It was, it was more it would be kind of
like if you were looking at a football from the
three quarter angle, you know, it would be would appear
to be around on the top of twenty on the bottom.
And and this thing, like I said, it was out
there for twenty five minutes.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
You're preparing this that maybe something we can put up
over at the power cast forums.

Speaker 5 (30:05):
So absolutely, yeah, what I'll do is I'll email it
to you after we've concluded. That way you've got it
and you can do whatever you want with it.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Did this thing make any sound tony?

Speaker 5 (30:14):
Not a bit. It was, well, it looked like it
was pretty high up in the sky, probably you know,
maybe at least a couple thousand feet. It was way
way up, you know. And like I said, at first,
you know, when you first looked at it, you probably thought, hey,
what in the world is that looks like a you know,
big bright star. But it's not. It was was much
bigger than the star. If you were to hold a

(30:35):
dime out at arm's length, it was probably about as
big as a dime if you were to look at
you know, kind of that regard, if you were to
hold a dime out arms and length, that would be
how big it was in the sky.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, that doesn't sound like venus to me.

Speaker 5 (30:47):
Well, you know, could we swamp gas? Who knows. But
you know, when I talk about these because I mean
I do have a telescope and I do look at
the sky and whatnot, and they talk about objects being
as big as they are a good guestimate, you know,
when you when you're talking about objects of size, you know,
the way they talk about your apertures and things like
that is you know, how much of the sky do

(31:09):
you see at arm's length? If you you know, if
you hold your hand and you have a quarter out there,
or a dime or a penny or whatever, or even
a pencil point, you know, it's this thing. Like I said,
it didn't make a sound, and it didn't really even move.
It just you know, it appeared to get brighter, and
it looked like it had actually gotten closer, and then
it went back to its normal brightness and apparently it's

(31:32):
normal distance. And then that was it. That was the
only movement that it made, and then it winked out.
It was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
I've got to ask a question. I know, I think
I already know what the answer is going to be.
But whenever anybody talks about shooting footage, I always prost
my fingers and I think, tell me they had a tripod,
Tell me they use a tripod. Tommy, did you have
a tripod?

Speaker 5 (31:51):
I dropped the football? Man, I just it's just handycam
and sorry.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, that's where I fired, Tommy. That's it. Hey, hey,
I do have a tripod.

Speaker 5 (32:01):
But man, you know, no, you.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Just basically reacted to the situation. Grab the camera went outside.

Speaker 5 (32:06):
I mean, well, if I would have been smart, I
probably could have gotten the same thing out through my
apartment window. I mean it's just, you know, you could
see this thing bright as day. You know, it was
just the most bizarre thing in the world, you know,
to see this. And then you know, my wife saw it,
and like I said, about one hundred thousand other people
apparently saw it too. But it wasn't just in Minnesota

(32:26):
that people saw it too. They saw it in Wisconsin,
and they saw it, you know, in Illinois and Iowa
and a few other places. So because my first lot,
I thought, you know, could this be the space station?
You know, could it have been a space station with
a low orbit or something else, you know, But it
wasn't the case.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
No, not, It was the size of a dime. That
space station would be coming down at that point.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
Well, you know, it's got to come down sometime. But
that was my first life thought, maybe I'm seeing the
space station.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
You know, Well it's long because I mean I'm in
my living room. You know, I don't really want one
of those things in my living room, and I know
they were built by the lowest bidder. That really scares me.
To death and the ones who gave the most for
a political campaign that's even worse. Don't let's start on
politics with this that we have to start another show.
So Tommy, let's let's talk a little bit about how

(33:16):
we found out about you. You came onto the Paracast
forums after we had on Lloyd Pye with the Star
Child Skill, and you kind of I guess you found
out about the parent cast and I imagining you heard
that show right.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
Actually, to tell you the truth, what had happened was, well,
I hadn't heard of your show until I did a
couple of Google searches for various forms because I had
done this work, and what was really neat about it?
And just to give you the whole story, I was listening, Yeah,
this is the set, but I was listening to Coast

(33:50):
to Coast. Unfortunately there's nothing else on it. Toast, well,
you know, at one o'clock in the morning, what else
you got going on?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
They've officially renamed the show Toast to Toast the host
and we'll forget okay, so listen to that.

Speaker 5 (34:05):
I was hoping you were telling the truth that wow.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Before we renamed the show officially.

Speaker 4 (34:23):
This is the I asked, with your hosts, you never
know what's going to happen next.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
You're in the Power Cast with Geen Steinberg and David Vietney.
Artist Tommy Allison joins us, and he got involved after
listening to Toast to Toast as it was making bagels
or something with Bubblehead and cheesemonger. What happened next, Tommy Bubblehead,
that's great, Wow, Tommy, her mom name is yeah, yes,

(35:01):
his twelve year old Filipino wife, So that.

Speaker 5 (35:05):
Is so wrong. Anyway, I was listening to the show
and Lloyd was talking about this thing that he had,
this star child skull, and and I thought, wow, this
is really interesting.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
You know.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
I thought there would be an opportunity to, uh, to
read up on something that was kind of unusual, you know,
because I love the things that are bizarre and weird.
And and I thought, well, you know, this guy has
a pretty good spiel. It sounds pretty good. Let me
go do some more research. So anyway, I went to
his website and I read everything that he had on
I thought, wow, this is really kind of compelling. It
looked like it was something that I was really gonna

(35:41):
be interested in, maybe getting involved. With and I saw
some of the artists renderings that he had on there,
and I thought, I think I can do a better
job for him, you know, that was my thought. I
can do a better job. And here's the thing is that,
from my perspective, if this is something that is legitimate
undred percent, it's alien.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
Huh.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
What an opportunity to be affiliated with something that would
be one of the most remarkable finds in history, you know.
So anyway, I go ahead and I email him a
proposal that I wanted to do this for him, do
the forensic great construction, and he was all gung hole
about it, and I was cool with it too, And

(36:21):
I didn't want any money because I you know, I'm
like this, As I told David before, money has a
way of getting in the way of objectivity. If somebody
asked me to sculpt something for him, then I'm going
to give them what they want. Otherwise I don't get paid.
And since I did this without payment, then that would
there would be no way for other people to influence

(36:43):
me in the outcome. Now, knowing what I know about
anthropology and knowing what I know about anatomy, I took
the original skull that he had sent me. It wasn't
the actual original skull. He sent me this MROI prototype,
which was about as accurate as accurate. It's because the
doctors at this one particular place that made it, they

(37:05):
use it as as a means for other doctors to
plot out an operation, and so it was, you know,
one hundred percent accurate to what Lloyd had. And so anyway,
well tell me.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
The whole lot for a second, because our audience may
not know what an MRI prototype is.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
An MRI prototype is is what they do is they
do an MRI of the skull and they was that
magnetic revidence. So anyway, they do that and then it
has run the encoding from that is run through a
rapid prototyping machine and then it makes this plastic composite

(37:41):
copy of what the skull was. So basically it is
an exact duplicate of the skull, only it's in this
red polymercrylic and it's a partition so that you could
take it apart and you can see the insides and everything.
And what I really thought was interesting about the whole
thing is because when I got the MRI prototype, it
had even the sutures. You know, if one of the
bones had fused together on it. Everything was you know,

(38:03):
one hundred percent accurate, and I thought, wow, this is
really unusual looking at because where the uh the auditory
canal was situated was really low on the skull and
the size of the opening for you know, the vertebra
and the spinal cord to connect, and just it was
such an unusual specimen that I thought, Wow, this is
really something else, you know. And so anyway, what I

(38:26):
did was I made a set of molds off of that,
and then there was this partial upper palette that I
had to uh get a casting of from this guy
named doctor David sweet Up in Canada who runs the
mold lab and uh, and I got that from him,
and I made a set of molds off of that,
and then I returned a course to the materialists to
both people and uh and then from there I proceeded
to do this forensic reconstruction, uh using forensic templates and uh,

(38:50):
you know, I used human templates because that is my
impression of it, It was that it was a human
more than an alien. As other people have stated that
they believe that it was some kind of hybrid before
you can.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
Tell you Tommy, let's just backtrack for a moment. So
you took on this project of a forensic reconstruction. Had
you ever done anything like this before?

Speaker 4 (39:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (39:11):
I did two other ones for a couple of clients
that it asked me to. One was a taxidermy project
and another one was for a client who I can't
name right now because it's got there's something more to
it that I can really discuss at this time. Okay,
But the issue is that I've done this before. I'm
pretty good at it, and I know a lot of

(39:34):
other people that do this stuff, and they, you know,
they have as much education, if not less, than I do.
And so it is a skill to be able to
do it. But it's also one of those things where
you'll see a lot of other people do it and
they won't put the research into it, and I put.
I put about a month of just straight research into
this thing because I was what I was looking for

(39:56):
was accuracy more than anything else. This thing was not
going to be a space alien. It was going to
be accurate because when you look at the bone structure
that I had to work with because I had this
MRI prototype, it told me a story in and of itself.
You know, the bone structure was incredibly delicate, the orbital
sushures and everything else like that that you could see

(40:18):
where it had been broken off. These were things that
were very delicate. This was a specimen that was very
young and it was very very delicate though, and that
you see where you know, your zygomatic arch joins at
the back of the skull that forms the cheek bone.
You could see just how delicate this thing was. And
so with that said, you know, human beings generally as

(40:40):
a rule, don't have these types of qualities when you
look at your bone structure, you look at a five
year old, five year old's going to be had with
a bone structure, it's a little more substantial. So, you know,
this was the thing that hooked me because I was
like looking at this thing, going, well, wait a minute,
this is obviously something that's not been seen before. And
then as I would do more and more research than

(41:01):
I developed a different opinion. I believe that it was
probably more along the lines of somebody who had prageria,
because pragerians have similar or if not, you know, identical
structures in some ways. If you do enough research on it,
you'll find out.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, let's describe to our listeners what prigeria is. Exactly
what prageria is. It's a disease that causes you to
age rapidly. And if you ever saw the movie The
Aurora Incident or is it The Aura Encounter had Jackie
Lamb and it had this child. His name was Mickey somebody,
but anyway, he was a child that had prgeria and

(41:38):
he played this alien in this movie. The story is
about the Aurora Incident that happened down in Aurora, Texas,
where they believe that a space alien crash landed.

Speaker 5 (41:48):
There and died. And only in the end of the
movie it goes a little different. But anyway, this kid
had pregeria. And I remembered this because somebody had made
mention of it. I think it might have been a
history channel or it was a friend of mine. But
I remembered seeing this movie because and I thought, wow,
it's really bizarre. But this kid didn't need any makeup.
They didn't use hardly any makeup on this kid. All

(42:08):
they did was put him in a costume and that
was it. He looked unusual. So I thought, well, maybe
this is what this is, you know, maybe this is
something along that vein. And the more research I did
looking for the right esthetic for you know, the finished sculp,
the more I realized that prgeria could be a very
sensible answer, you know, because I saw some Pagerians with

(42:31):
the low set ears and they had the odd shaped skulls.
And if you don't know a whole story about the skull,
it comes out of this place called Chuajo, Mexico, and
at least that's what the story is. And you know
Mexicans and using this as a stereotype or anything, but
of that time, children were cradle boarded quite a bit Mesoamericans.

(42:52):
A lot of Native Americans even cradle boarded their children,
so they'd have these unusual flattening of the skull. You'd
see it on a periodically different specimens. And with this,
you know, it had a lot of those ear marks.
But imagine if this was a perjurian child who was
aging rapidly, the bones would suture and it would you
would have almost less identical end result. At least that

(43:15):
that is my perspective. I don't claim to know anything
anymore than you know anybody else. But when I broached
that subject with Lloyd, he assured me that it wasn't,
and a few other people that are periphecty involved, they
seem to have, you know, their own opinions about what
it was. And so with that said, you know, I
still I wanted to remain as objective as I could,

(43:36):
and I wanted to err on the side of it
being human, so that way it didn't look like it
deliberately went out to sculpt an alien. That was the thing.
A lot of people have asked me, says, well, did
you set out to make this thing look like an alien?
I had to tell people no, because if you've ever
seen the finished dart that I did for this thing,
it looks very alien, but it's not meant to be
because the material I used is stuff called the POxy

(43:58):
sculpt and batch is very in color in hue, and
believe it or not, when I took the pictures, this
was just the way it was. It wasn't painted or anything.
This is just the materials color.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
You're in the Para cast when Geene Steinberg and David
be Edney, you never know what's going to happen. Next.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
You're in the Power cast with Gene Steinberg and David Biedney,
we have Tommy Allison, an artist, UFO research or investigator,
and he's talking about taking the star Child's skull and
trying to build a graphic image from that particular item.
So let's go on with this.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
So anyway, like I said before, it was one of
those things where in order to remain objective, in order
to not give people what you know, they wanted, I
did to go with this idea that this was a
Prigerian child. And you know, when you think about it,
if you see a perjurian, you know you're going to
think that this could be a space alien if you're
one of those types of people who are inclined to

(45:09):
see aliens and everything. You know, when I went about
this to go with the final aesthetic, I wanted it
to have that look because you know, it still looked human,
markedly human from start to finish.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
Though.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
That was my belief that this was a human person,
and that I wanted the finished result to reflect, you know,
that there would be more human you know, more humanity
in it then let's say an alien. So anyway, I'll
go ahead and I do this thing, and I'm corresponding
with Lloyd and getting emails and getting high praise from

(45:40):
the whole thing to before.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
You continue, Well, I just want to ask a question.
I'm going to play Devil's advocate for just a moment.
You're being very honest and stating that you were approaching
this with a preconceived notion that this was, in your opinion,
most likely not a hybrid creature. Now, let's just say
I said to you, well, gee, doesn't that show a
certain level of subjectivity on your end? I mean, and

(46:04):
it's interesting because of the fact that when I saw
the finished pictures, I mean, they were basically green. It
didn't look human. So it's interesting that you're saying that,
you know, you started out with a certain attitude about
what this was. And I'm not saying I disagree with you.
I'm just playing Devil's advocate here promote because what would
you say to someone who would say to you, well, gee,
it sounds like your mind was made up. And did

(46:26):
that influence how you built up the reconstruction of this skull?

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Then?

Speaker 5 (46:31):
Well, not really, And for two reasons. The skull tells
a story by itself. The sickness of the skull gives
you the tissue thicknesses there. You know, there are proportional
equations for all of that, So that part of it
is not me. That's not my interpretation because I have
to go I have to look at the data I

(46:51):
have to you know, I measured the skull thicknesses from
the MRI construction and from there, you know, so that
is not interpreted loosely. So I can't really I can't
really inject my own, you know, personality or my own
ideologies there because when you do forensic reconstruction, you look
at the bone thicknesses, and you also look at the

(47:14):
bone density. You also look at many other things that
will tell you just how much tissue goes on there.
Because of the more tissue you have, the heavier your
bones are going to be. And when you look at this,
when you look at how delicate this, I don't know
if you're able to look at it or not there,
but I have the whole progression on a website. You
can see if I'm start to finish how I built up.

(47:37):
Everything that I had to work with was very delicate,
so there was not a whole lot of tissue to
really work with. I mean, when you talk about when
I was talking about how you know, the muscul the churn,
Everything went on, Everything went on in stages. And so knowing,
like I said, what I know about anatomy of physiology,
and knowing what I know about, you know, doing this
sort of thing with the forensic templates and all of that,

(48:00):
there was really no error, you know, or no room
for me to make it look human or make it
look like an alien, because I, you know, I went
with what I had. And that was the thing is
that you know, I even because I conferred with you know,
three forensic anthropologists, two regular anthropologists, a geneticist, a dentist,

(48:20):
an orthodonist, two chiropractors, people who are far more learned
than I am. These were people that I dealt with,
and one of them was, you know, like I said,
doctor David Sweet Up a Bold lab in Canada, who's
one of Lloyd Pye's you know people. They worked together,
and so this guy had he had some different things
to say about because he wasn't truly sure that the
upper palette that he sent me, this maxilla, the sort

(48:41):
of portion of it was it actually belonged to this skull.
But that's what Lloyd says, So there it is.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Doctor sweet had an issue with that statement.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
Of Lloyd, Well, he believed that the maxilla doesn't really
belong to the skull. He just it just didn't look
right apparently to him. Personally, I think it fit just
fine for two reasons. There was a portion of the
orbit left. You can see the sushus zygomatic suture for
the cheekbone and where it joins the orbit for the eye,
and there was just enough of that there for me

(49:12):
to get the size of the eyes. And so I
sat there as like, well, I personally I think the
thing worked. I thought that that partial maxila was belonging
to the skull because it did fit. It's not like
a piltdown man, where you can grab a jawbone off
of something else and stick it on there, because jaw bones,
I mean, they will pretty much fit, you know, like
my job bone will fit on your skull. You know,

(49:35):
it doesn't matter how goofy it may look, it's still
going to register pretty much in the same spot if
we're of comparative height. Well, this thing, I mean, I
actually had to create a new lower mandible and everything
for it, and using you know, the forensic templates, and
then using the spacing and the size of the upper
palette that I had to reconstruct. There's a lot of
Like I said, there's a lot of research and a

(49:55):
lot of work that went into this. There's a necessity
for accuracy because you know, if if somebody was to
tell me, hey, you know, I need you to make
this look as alien as possible, then I could have
saved myself a couple of grand and and not made
a set of molds and not broadcastings of the pieces
to work for them. You know, I mean, I didn't
have to waste a whole lot of time doing all

(50:18):
this research. You know, I could have just said, hey,
I tell you what I got your pictures, your skull,
I can blow it up the size and I could
have just made them an alien to go around it.
And that was the thing, And that's the reason why
I didn't get paid. And that was the other reason
was that it wasn't out to make this thing look
like an alien.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
You were putting your own money into this, then.

Speaker 5 (50:34):
Well it's there's there's materials involved. You know, I spent
you know, I spent probably close to a grand you know,
just putting things together, and that's you know, but that's money,
that's that's you know, that's the time I put into it.
That's the materials, you know. You know, I charged people
one hundred and ten dollars an hour to work for them,
you know, So I mean it's it's you know, because

(50:54):
it actually the sculpting part of it only took me
about four and a half hours to start to finish
the research. The things took time, but the sculpting is
very quick because the material I work I work with
called a proxy sculpt It sets up in about three hours,
you know. I do the tertiary layer of the rebuild
on the cheek bones and then made the little amenable
that took me like a day, and then flushing it

(51:15):
out didn't take me that long when it took me
and like I said, about four hours. If you look
at it from that perspective, then it's really not that costly.
I mean I had all of the time doing it.
I had a lot of fun doing it. I had
a lot of fun interacting with all these different people
from all of these different places and getting knowledge that
you know, I was really doing my best to get
something that was accurate, because everything I'd seen on Lloyd's

(51:37):
site or anywhere else for that matter, just didn't have
that accuracy. It just didn't look right. I mean, when
you look at the stuff that's on Lloyd's site, that's
people drawing stuff. I mean, and I'm not detegrating anybody's
artistic talent. If you look at the skull and well,
the skull will give you ninety nine percent of the
answers you need. But anyway, it's just not an issue
of artistic and interpretation.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
It's an issue of forensic accuracy we're really talking about here.
And I'll tell you, ladies and gentlemen, let's explore the
end result and the reaction to that end result. In
the second part of this week's episode of The Power Cast.
I'm opining We're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Welcome back to the Para Cast, Jeene Steinberg and David Vietny.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
We're back with a Power Cast with Jean Steinberg and
David Bietney and artist Tommy Allison is here. He got
involved in a project to do a forensic model based
on the Star trial that was presented by Lloyd Pie.
So you spent time doing what you felt was the
most accurate representation of what this skull looked like. Okay, yeah,

(52:46):
So what happened next.

Speaker 5 (52:48):
What is this is that I had all these great
interactions with everybody that was involved with the starchild, and
then I sent a Lloyd to a mock up because
I thought, you know, you know, they're trying to raise
money for various research projects, trying to get the DNA
analyze that sort of thing. And I had this idea
that I was gonna make a promotional poster, and so

(53:09):
I go ahead and I sent him a mockup of
the poster, and rather than put the star Child on there,
I put Hybrid on there because I didn't have the
rights to the star Child yet. And I've worked with
so many different people that if you jump the gun,
it looks like you're doing something you're not supposed to.
And so it was one of those cases where I
was damned if I didn't damned if I didn't, you know.
So I go and they send Lloyd this this mock up,

(53:32):
and then he tells me that I have to I'm
going to have to pay royalties to use my own image.
And I was like, what, Well, here's the thing is
that I had no problems sharing my work with these people.
I had no problems whatsoever. These people were very nice,
very gracious. I go ahead, and I sent him this thing.
And I'd been one hundred percent you know, public about

(53:52):
everything I have done. You know, I went to your
guys's website and several other websites and posted pictures of
the progress and and you know, just to show the work.
And I did a lot of promotion for this thing
because I still want to see what the end result is,
whether or not it comes out as being a hybrid
or a space alien or if it's a human being,
I don't care. I just want to know. So anyway,

(54:14):
I was willing to go ahead and give these people
some art to sell. You know, I was going to
make castings of the thing and you know, of the
of the finished result, and you know, I was I
was happy, you know, to be involved with this. And
then Lloyd tells me, I'm going to have to pay royalties. Meanwhile,
these guys are using my images for free. You know,
Lloyd has shopped them around to a couple of different

(54:36):
media outlets and whatnot, and one of which was UFO magazine.
And so anyway, I go ahead, and I you know,
I get kind of my nose in a twist over
because I'm like being told, you know that I got
to pay to use my own art when I haven't
been paid a dime for anything. I'd like to make,
you know, some money to recruit my costs in the production.

(54:57):
And thirdly, heure was a so arn't that I was
going to give to these people to make money for him?
And so I was like, I'm not sure where this
is going. So anyway, he tells me to get a
lawyer involved, and of course I have a lawyer, and
you know, my lawyer says, well, this is what we're
going to do. You're going to you know, divorce yourself
from Lloyd Pie and his group or send any permissions

(55:17):
that you've given him to use your work. I did that,
and that's when things went south, and they went south
really fast.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
I would expect that's probably what would have be expected.

Speaker 5 (55:28):
Well that's just said, is that, you know, if you
tell me to go get a lawyer, right, and yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Well that's already an insult because you.

Speaker 5 (55:35):
Said I have a lawyer. I've had a lawyer on
retainer for ten years. And if somebody is going to
tell me to go get a lawyer, well, hey, I
have no problems doing it. You know it makes any
difference to me. I deal with the issues of copyright
and trademark and all that stuff almost on a daily basis,
because there's always somebody out there that's either stealing your
stuff or is reproducing something that you've made, you know

(55:58):
that you know, has taking money out of your pocket.
My thing was, you know, here was this this guy
telling me that I need to get a lawyer or
use my own art, and meanwhile he's you know, passing
around everybody and their brother, and there's nothing I can
do about it, really, but I really don't care, because
you know, it's part of this thing that I believed in.
I believed in doing this project.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Was there any legal agreement contract for abill email about us?

Speaker 5 (56:24):
No? No, no, I said. I sent an email that
you know, you could he could use my images, which
wasn't a problem. But here's the thing is that there's
no written agreement, no contrastial agreement, no financial agreement between
me and him or anybody. So by reciprocity, just by
that alone, I would have no problems using my own
art because, for one, it's not their skull that I'm using.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Well, his ownership was going to ask because he claiming
property with the skull.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
Well, yeah, that was it, and that's fine because see
I don't own the rights to the star Child name.
You know, that was the thing is that you know,
well here I you know, I was waiting to get
in touch with these people that actually own it, because
Lloyd doesn't actually own the skull, and so anyway, I'm
trying to get a hold of the people so that
way I could you know, make some kind of an
agreement with them. I heard nothing, knew nothing about these
people until my lawyer got involved. And so anyway, it

(57:17):
isn't shortly after that that, you know, I started getting
these inflammatory emails from Lloyd and uh. And then and then,
as we turn out, you know, I finally get a
hold of this other these other two people, Ray and Melanie,
and I send them an email and then they're apparently
wondering what the hell is going on, And so they've
see seed stuff to Lloyd, and then it's come back

(57:37):
to me and and and then I'm seeing both of
these parties and emails that I sent, and basically what
it boiled down to is that it became a smear
campaign against me, telling them that they never liked any
of my stuff, or he never liked any of my
work and it was not right, and that it looked
like don imss and all kinds of really insulting stuff.

(57:59):
And then the worst, the worst.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Letter, Dawn, I'm as fan then you might find complimentary.
I don't know well of course, of course. But the
most unkind cut was this email that I got that
was accidentally sent to me where he says that I
have emotional problems and all this other stuff, and and
I was like, you know, that is libel. That is
he said that to who said that to these people

(58:22):
that I had emailed who actually owned the spell? Yeah
it is now I can almost read it to you.
I'll bring it up.

Speaker 5 (58:29):
He says, we're it has now been found out that
I have I suffer from emotional distress. And I was like, well, yeah,
I do. I suffer from emotional distress when somebody lies
about me and does things behind my back, you dirty
lion snake, you know. And it's like I was passed,
you know, I was really angry. And so anyway, this
is this guy, you know, you know, and then he
sends me all these these you know, hateful emails after

(58:52):
the fact, like he's you know, like he's lecturing me
like he's my dad or something. And I was just like,
you know, a lot, I've met a lot of frauds
in my time, but you know, you know, I just can't.
He was, by far amore, the most egregious jackass I've
ever met. And I used that term very rare when

(59:12):
I when I talk about people. It was the fact
that this guy had just you know, he had said
some things that were not true. He had done a
bunch of things that were not true, because I have
all these emails that are completely the opposite of what
he says about how much he hated my work or
how he needed to be disassociated with it because it
wasn't accurate and all this other stuff. And I was
just like, well, wait a minute, if you were so

(59:33):
upset with my work, then why were you sending my
work to UFO magazine? You know, if you were going
to divorce yourself from me, you know that long ago,
then why were you just up until the other day
going to use my art in your book? You know?
There was the thing is that you know I had,
you know, I got my lawyer involved, and we were
ready to cease and desists and everything to this guy

(59:53):
because we were going to stick it to him because
you know, he wanted to, you know, to bully me,
and that's not how it worked out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
And Tommy tell us about the experience with UFO magazine
before you do, Let's have a cliffhanger.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
You're in the power casts.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
In every ox.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
You're in the Power Cast with Gene Steinberg and David B. Edney.
We're in part two for a session with Tommy Allison.
We were talking about his forensic reproduction of the Star
Child's Skull and the aftermath. Okay, UFL magazine is involved.
What happens next?

Speaker 5 (01:00:43):
He had sent some work to Nancy Burns of their
UFL magazine and I didn't know, I knew nothing of it.
I had actually sent them portfolio of my own, just
a little thing there, because I would like to contribute art,
you know, because I thought, you know, this is a
news venue for me. Why not, you know, why not
go with it?

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
And so anyway, one of her subordinates got my portfolio
and then forwarded it to her, and then you know,
she finally got in touch with me. She's wanting to
use my images in conjunction with Lloyd's starchild article. But
she knows nothing of what has just transpired. She knows,
she doesn't know that me and Lloyd a on the outs.
And so anyway, you know, Lloyd is you know, sending

(01:01:21):
you sent me this email. It was just really kind
of crappy. He was saying that, you know, he hopes
that Nancy pulls my art off the cover and all
that other stuff and blah blah blah blah blah. Meanwhile,
she's still you know, even though she knows now because
I've told her, I said, me and Lloyd are having
a falling out over this kind of thing. She goes, well,
I still want to use your art, and I said, okay, well,
you know, I'm not sure how Lloyd feels about it,

(01:01:43):
but you know what, I'm happy to do it. You know,
I'm happy to be the bigger man and let her
use my art, you know, And so anyway, I'm cool
with it. You know, I'm I don't have any problems
with because they're going to do they were going to
do something with me. And Nancy is incredibly gracious, I
know when it comes to people that are just you know,
really great to talk to. I seen her high praises.

(01:02:06):
So you know, none of this stuff, none of this stuff,
you know, reflects on her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
And Nancy, she's a wonderful let me tell you.

Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
You know, a classier woman I have yet to meet
outside of my mother in law and my aunt Barbera.
But that's you know, that's you know, she's she was
super sweet to me on the phone. And you know,
it's very rare that you meet somebody that actually has
a and when they talk to you, they're one hundred
percent genuine. You can tell just by the way she
spoke to me. And so anyway, now that I've you know,
been a thorough kiss ass, I'll tell you what happened

(01:02:37):
after that. And so anyway, we're cool. Everything is fine.
I sent email to Lloyd saying, hey, Nancy is going
to use my work in conjunction with your your story.
You know, I was pretty pretty cool about it wasn't
meant to be you know, inflammatory, and you know, I said,
you know, I'm hoping that you know, this is cool.
That's it, you know, and uh, and apparently he took

(01:02:59):
it way out of context. And so anyway, he sends
me this hateful email back along with this other thing
where he says I suffer from mental problems and whatever,
you know, and by accident that one and I called
Nancy and I said, you know what, I don't think
I can work with this guy at all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:17):
It was just like that, you know. And I hope
Nancy didn't take it that I was being overly dramatic
or anything. But it was like this guy had made
me mad, and he had made me mad in a
way that not many people do. It's unfortunate, you know,
because you know the second email I got to him
in regards to this, and I forwarded it to David.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Actually, Tommy, let me ask you something. When you first
started looking at the Star Child website and you saw
these artistic renditions that other artists had created, did you
express your opinions about those renditions to Lloyd And if so,
what did he say?

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
Really, the only thing I really said to Lord was
I thought I could do a better job for him.
I can make a better not just esthetically, but I
wanted to make an artistic statement that was accurate everything
I had seen. And if you look at his stuff,
I mean, it's just not accurate. Everything is. It's stereotypical.
It's an alien gray that's exactly what you're going to

(01:04:16):
look at. If you're looking at this thing, it's that's
all you see. And so with you know, doing a
reconstruction like I did, it was going to be you know,
a lot more accurate. But you know, that was the
only thing I told Lloyd. I just wanted to do
something better.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
So, but he was open to you doing this, and
he didn't. I guess I'm wondering, did he express to
you what he hoped he would see in your reconstruction?
Did you feel there was any sort of a prejudice
on his part or a suggestion on his part that
he wanted to see maybe one thing or the other
out of what you were coming up with.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
The thing of it is is that and then this
is like I said, I forelready do the actual email
that I got. It's this email that I gotten from
Uh from him with this strange little uh alien gray.
It was from an Amico ad right, and it was
really weird because it actually came from somebody else, came

(01:05:11):
with a guide named Andrew. Anyway, if you look at
the art, you know, there's this this alien from Amaco
and it had kind of like the same kind of
head well, there was I think that there was to
a certain degree a little bit of pressure to come
around to that sort of result, but you know, it
didn't really get in the way so that, you know,

(01:05:32):
I disregarded a lot of stuff that Lloyd and a
couple other people had said, because you know, it was
gonna look weird enough as it is, right, you know,
It's it's like, I don't need to do anything unusual
to this skull to make it look any more alien
than it already is. It's like, you know, when you
have that when I had the partial palate, and if

(01:05:53):
you if you want to go check it out, and
it's on my comic space page, you open up, uh,
just the first page from it, you will see that
that skull is it's pretty unusual. What am I going
to do to make it look more alien?

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
You know?

Speaker 5 (01:06:10):
The only the outside of putting big black eyes on it,
a little tiny mouth and no nose, that's really about
all you're going to be able to do, you know,
to make this thing look like a like an alien
you would see, you know, in any of the movies.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
And presumably if it's a hybrid, it has to have
human and alien characteristics, not look like just a gray well, yeah,
I mean.

Speaker 5 (01:06:30):
Everybody that I've seen that has done the gray thing
has made it look you know, stereotypically. It all look
like the really Strieber thing. You know, even if you
look at the renditions on on Lloyd's website, you know,
most of the people they that's where they go. They
go with the slanted eyes and to make it look
more alien. But that's that should not have been the
end result.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Well, the assumption there is that the person or being
is inheriting a large portion of their structure, their physical
characteristics from the alien as opposed to the human.

Speaker 5 (01:07:02):
Well, it's this is the thing that David and I
discussed earlier, is that this is supposed to be a
boy child. If you look at the DNA result, it
says it's a boy. Well, if that's the case, and
that means there's an X chromosome, and then, like you know,
David and I both discussed, you know, this is something
that is you know, I think it was probably far
more human than anything else. That's just my own speculation.

(01:07:23):
When you give something alien features, you know you better
Dann will have the DNA to back it up right now,
And just if you have two parts of the equation. Right,
you have the child's DNA, which is it's a boy,
but it's missing its father's DNA, but yet it's still
got that mother's DNA. Well, you get most of your
genes from your mom. You know, it is a fifty

(01:07:45):
to fifty deal on certain things, but most of your
biological genetics come from you know, your mother's side of
the family. To say that this thing should take on
one or the other would be ridiculous. It should look
more and more like its mother than it should look
like like a space alien for any for lack of
a better term. But when I see what other people

(01:08:06):
have done on Lloyd's site, and there's a couple of
people who drew pictures and called those forensic reconstructions, which
to me is almost laughable. You know, I mean, I
can draw a picture as much as anybody or as better,
you know, as good or better than some of these
people on here, but yet it's not going to reflect accuracy.
You know. The only way you're going to get real
accuracy is if you you know, you have the skull

(01:08:29):
in hand, and you can make all the measurements that
you need and do a complete reconstruction, and that's exactly
what I did. And I'm not saying that mine is
one hundred percent accurate, because nobody really knows what this
thing is going to look like until you know, somebody
takes it and clones it and turns it into a
real person. You know, That's that's the issue.

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
I think that what I've done was accurate and was
represented to be accurate by Lloyd until we had our
falling out.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
To hear from you a question about don't forget to
visit our before you can talk to listeners and just
comm that's the form links.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Hey, let me tell you our listeners. You're in the
Power Cast with Gene Steinberg and David Bietney. We're talking
to we'll call me UFO Enthusiasts, investigator whatever, and artist
Tommy Allison, and we're talking about his forensic reconstruction of
the Star Child and I guess the unfortunate aftermath, and
I'm wondering here also, now, where does it stand today?

(01:09:55):
Obviously you and Lloyd had this falling out, All this
had heard as of today as at the time this
show is being recorded, where do you go?

Speaker 5 (01:10:05):
Well, I mean, I'm you know, I'm in my corner
and he's in his. I don't I don't talk to him,
he doesn't talk to me. We don't shoot emails between
each other. It's pretty much concluded. Our business is concluded.
He wants nothing to do with me, and that's perfectly fine,
you know, I h I really want less than nothing
to do with him. You know, it's just, uh, it's
it's one of those things where you know, I did
all this work and and I'm not resentful for doing

(01:10:27):
the work because I had a hell of the time
doing it, and I had a great time talking with
all these wonderful people telling them what I was doing.
And it was really wild because there was so many
people that were just, you know, really really interested in
this project. You know, they were really interested, not just
because you know, it was it was unusual, or because
it could be alien, because there was a lot of
scientific research that could have been done on this thing,

(01:10:48):
real science, and uh, and it was. It's one of
those things where it's kind of how it's it's being
dealt with and who's running things that that maybe we
don't have all the answers that we need. I personally
believe that, you know, if we were to send this
thing to the crime lab at Chronica, Virginia, you know,
they would probably have a pretty conclusive DNA result because

(01:11:10):
those guys, they will stir around and they do their
business very well. You know, if there was any doubt
that this thing was human, you can better believe somebody
would have already grabbed this thing and gone with it.
And I'm not saying Lloyd's not legitimate. I'm not saying
that at all. I'm saying that if there was enough
legitimate interest in it, then there would be people who
would be gladly, you know, paying the price for this thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
You see the problem magic Lloyd, and he seemed very
gracious when we did the show, but as soon as
we said, well we don't buy it, of course he
was upset. But I think he has devoted a large
part of the recent years of his life to making
this real. He wanted to be real. This is going
to be a vindication, and I think that's the problem.

Speaker 5 (01:11:53):
I'd like it to be real too, and I'm sure
that in some small way you probably would too. It
would be some valueation, not just for him, but for
a lot of people, you know, And this is saying
this is And this is where I'm going to say
some nice things about Lloyd. And this might come as
a shock, but I know that he has quite an
investment in this, you know. I know that this is

(01:12:13):
you know, when you when you pair all away. This
is his thing. This is what he has going for him.
And you know what if it was to all fallow
out and and turn out to be nothing more than
just a deformed kid, I am still of the mind
that he would have the grace and decency to tell
the truth about it and maybe, you know, probably write
another book about how he did all this crazy stuff.

(01:12:35):
But you know, and that's and that's you know, might
be being nice, but you know what, it's that that
is the way he and several others who are affiliated
with AS have struck me is they would be intellectually
honest about what they had. I think though, to a
large extent, you know, what has happened is is that
they they probably don't have the resources that they want,
you know, in order to do all this stuff. And

(01:12:56):
I don't think that they're going about it in a
way that is objective. I think that they would probably
be worried that they would lose control of this artifact,
and I think that that is in this type of
research that happens quite often. Let's say, you know, if
you and eyeballs were to have a radio telescope and
we discovered a signal from another planet. Well, you know,

(01:13:18):
you saw the movie Contact. It's probably not too far
removed from the truth. What would happen next? And I
think that would probably be I think that is one
of their greatest fears, is that, you know, it could
go the same way for them. So I have mixed
emotions about Lloyd and his little group. I'm angry personally
for some of the things that he has said, but
I have to, you know, I have to be honest

(01:13:38):
and say, you know, I think that if it were
to come out that it was a fake, that he
would probably be mad enough to say something about it,
or to complain about it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
I have to chime in here, Holly, because, as Gene indicated,
we received communications from Lloyd after he was on the
show where basically his tone was absolutely vious and destructive.
There was nothing constructive about it. He was really bordering
on obscene. It was really shocking, actually, I'll tell you this.

(01:14:10):
Of all the guests we've found on the show. And
you know, we're known for asking hard questions and we're
known for not buying into stuff instantly. I don't know,
outside of one particular UFO religious called that show remain unnamed,
I don't know that we've ever gotten as venomous a
response as we got from Lloyd. And here's the thing
about it. When you start to look into Lloyd's background,

(01:14:33):
what you realize is that this is someone who I
feel is not intellectually honest. And this is my opinion.
When you were saying that these emails came forward where
he was essentially completely misrepresenting his thoughts about your work
when it wasn't going in his favor, that's a predisposition
to being somewhat less than objective and honest. Actually, I'm

(01:14:54):
being kind about it. You know that what he did
in your case was essentially to slander you.

Speaker 5 (01:15:01):
Well, here's the thing is that you know from my perspective,
and this is, you know, I have I have a
little more hope for humanity than most people, even though
I've seen a lot of bad stuff happen to me
and the other people. When you have the facts presented
to you, know, let's say a great example would be
if you and I were to be sitting on a

(01:15:23):
front por somewhere having a beer or whatever, and a
spaceship lance right in front of us, and you and
I are having a conversation about you know, aliens don't exist,
aliens do exist, and you know you're in the category
that says aliens don't exist, and you're prevented. You're presented
with the absolute proof. Do you have any way of
refuting it? No, you don't. And that's that's the thing, is.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
That, well, hold on, hold on, well no, But I
mean here's the thing. Shiplands in front of us, are
having that beer, ship lands in front of us, Creatures
walk out. I don't know that they're alien, neither that
neither do you. We know they're not human. That's all
we know.

Speaker 5 (01:15:58):
And that is the case Lloyd's thing, right, he's you know,
he claims this to be an alien hybrid or an
alien or whatever. Well, if he's shown one hundred percent
that this is, you know, it's not an alien. I
don't think that he's gonna be able to lie about it,
and I don't think that he'll you know, in the
case of me and Lloyd, it's it's a lot like

(01:16:19):
you know, he said, she said kind of a thing,
only it's he said, he said, And I have proof
to back all of what I say up, you know,
and uh, and you know, and Lloyd, I think what
his his problem with me was is that I think
he might have seen he might have thought that I
was looking for money out of his pocket or something,
which wasn't the case at all. And and and all

(01:16:40):
of this started because of it of a misconception that
he had on his end that I was going to
do something that I shouldn't.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
You're in the Para cast Jeens, Steinberg and Beetney. You
never know what's going to happen. Next.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
You're in the Power Cast with Geene Steinberg and David Baetney.
We're talking to Tommy Allison, an artist who did a
forensic reconstruction of the Star Child skull. You know, we've
looked at the aftermath here. Do you come away looking
at your handiwork. Do you think it's a hybrid? Does
it look like a hybrid or just a human who

(01:17:29):
is somewhat deformed?

Speaker 5 (01:17:30):
Well, you know, you have to realize that the context
that you're asking this question, and I make things every
day that are are not human or you know, they're
superheroes or god knows what. So for me to say,
does it look like an alien to you? Well, well,
I mean, you know, I see people in Minneapolis every
day that you know, borderline on humanity. And the thing

(01:17:53):
of it is is that, you know, when I look
at this thing, I wanted to give it a human soul.
That was my thing, you know when I created this,
and I wanted to I wanted it to actually have,
you know, a sense of humanity about itself because, like
I said before, I have I have a belief that
people are inherently good and that good things, you know,
should not be kept a secret. And with this, this

(01:18:16):
this alien hybrid thing, I wanted to make sure that
you know if this thing was an alien, because an
alien doesn't When you see an alien like the typical
gray with the black eyes, it looks soulless. You know,
it hits a chord with you that it is clearly
not human. I wanted it to be more human. So
I guess there's an answer. I say, it looks you know,
look at the phone, kid, that's that's my thing. I

(01:18:38):
you know, that was the that was the road I took.
And yet at the same time, you know, it's only
because of the color of the material that I used
does it look alien? Because you know, if the epoxy
skulp were dried either a gray or white or a
cream color, then we wouldn't be having the conversation about, well,
does it look like an alien to you? Well, I
guess the question is does it look human to you?

(01:19:01):
That that's the question I would ask you know, you guys,
I mean, does it look human to you? You know it,
you know, it doesn't look quite human to me. But
then again, I didn't see you know, I didn't go
out of the way that to make it look like
an alien. But at the same time, you know, you've
got to have to have that balance in order for
it to, you know, to look the way that it
should at least two if you're going to call it

(01:19:23):
a hybrid, so it needs to have benefit the blending
of both.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
So, right, here's the thing. When people say they're researchers,
that requires a certain level of responsibility. Now on the paracast,
Gene and I have never claimed to be researchers. We
are people who are interested in the paranormal. We're just
normal people. Who are curious about these topics, who have
a venue which you discuss them. But I've never claimed
to be a UFO or paranormal researcher. Either has gene

(01:19:50):
as far as I know. When you might promise, I
haven't claimed. I think I did when I was very
very young, but I got over that real quick, right right,
same one's a recent requires a certain level of responsibility. Now,
if you go on Wikipedia and you look at Lloyd
Pye's entry in Wikipedia, which is for the most part,
a lot of this text is pulled right off of

(01:20:11):
his bio and already by Wikipedia standards, that's real questionable.
But he claims to be a researcher. And so when
you make that statement, guys, that involves backing that statement
up with facts and with research. A researcher does research.
So as you start to research this individual, what you find.

(01:20:34):
And again, this is something that we talked to him
about when he was on the show, when he said
to me, and this is an interesting, I think an
interesting point about Lloyd. And again, in trying to understand
the claims that Lloyd's making, we have to look at
Lloyd the person, because he's making claims when Lloyd came
on the show. He said that anthropology was largely a

(01:20:54):
self taught discipline. You know, I may tell them sorry,
he said that. He said that on the sho show,
and I called in to question. I said that I
had real problems with that, and you know, go over
to Oxford University and let them know that, you know,
anthropology is largely a self taught discipline. Anthropology is one
of the most complex in the natural sciences. So he

(01:21:15):
made that statement. I called him on that, and then
he in an email to us, he absolutely denied making
that statement. And when I pointed out, you know, I said,
here's the transcript, here's what you said, and I pointed
out to him that he specifically stated that he was
largely self taught in anthropology and he didn't feel that
this was a degree discipline. When when when I pointed

(01:21:39):
out to him, he said, oh, no, you're not understanding
what I'm saying. I'm talking about the science of alternative knowledge,
which is a field that Lloyd essentially made up, and
it's it's he claims to have point this term alternative knowledge,
which basically to me means the knowledge that's alternative, that's
an alternate to everything that is accepted knowledge. Now have

(01:22:00):
my brand of knowledge, which is alternative knowledge. And then
again we start to dig into his background and we
find that the best known of the books he's written
is called Everything you Know Is Wrong. Now, when you
have an author who claims to be a researcher who
has a book called everything you Know is Wrong? To me,
maybe it's my own personal chord here, but that calls

(01:22:20):
into question his scientific objectivity, I submit that he has
very little of that. And you know, when he was
on the show, he made a big point about, oh,
pre order the first edition of my book that I'm
going to sign, because you know, when it comes out
that this is proven to be an alien human hybrid,

(01:22:41):
your investment in my book is going to go up dramatically.
You'll have made a good investment. I mean, that's not
Those are not the words of a researcher. Those are
the words of a snake oil salesman.

Speaker 5 (01:22:50):
Well, I guess then whatever investment you guys may have,
you know, made in buying his book, I guess I
got the great version because I have the version that
came out before this version. And to be honest, so yeah,
you know, I again It all goes back to you know,
I like to look for the best in people, and
it is my sincere is my sincere hope that Lloyd,
you know, whether it comes out one way or the other,

(01:23:12):
you know, if it comes out the way that he
doesn't want that he would actually be you know, he
would be upfront and forthright with it. But you know,
here's the thing, though, I mean, to a large extent,
you know, as angry as I am about what transpire
between me and Lloyd, I still hold out hope that
this thing is real and and because you know, it

(01:23:32):
would validate a lot of my own beliefs and to
agree to a degree yours, you know, I mean when
you think about it, I mean, what wonderful knowledge it
would be to know that you're not alone in the universe.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
And that is absolutely time.

Speaker 5 (01:23:46):
But unfortunately, it's got a messenger that you and I
and a few other people may not find, you know,
to be the most objective. But it's a messenger nonetheless.
And so as angry as I am about Lloyd, and
as as much you know, as much dirty dealings as uh,
you know, I could I could do against this guy,

(01:24:08):
you know, I have no desire to to inflict any more,
you know, uh, agony on the guy. I mean, what
more can I do? And that God already hasn't you
know when you think about it, it's you know, I
say that because you know, he's he's a guy that
he's the Don Quixote, that character. He's tilting at windmills.
You know, he's to a large extent, you know, he's
a guy that is trying very hard to to get

(01:24:30):
something going with this, and that part is to be admired.
You want somebody to uh to stand against established dogma,
But does it have to commit the price of intellectual honesty?
You know, if you think that Lloyd is intellectually dishonest
about this, I mean that's you know that, you know,
that is what you've said, not so much what I've said,

(01:24:51):
because what I what I've experienced with Lloyd vis a
vis his his project, most of that has been you know,
very obj because the results that that I showed him
were not what he wanted. He didn't want what I
was originally producing for him because he wanted to uh,
he wanted this thing to look you know, far more alien.

(01:25:12):
I think, at least that is my perspective and from
you know, I think that he expected it to look more. Amen,
And I should say, and when you get back to it,
you know, and by me not delivering what he wanted,
but he but he loved it. Nonetheless, that's just that
he said, you know this, You're right, you know, he
did several emails he said, you know this is this
is clearly the way to go on certain things.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
Don't forget to desire. Before you've talked to follow listeners
for lunch.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
For lunch, let me just tell our listeners. You're in
the Powercast with Jeans Steinberg and David Bietney. We're talking
to Tommy Allison, who did a forensic reconstruction of the
Star Trials skull. Now, where do you intend to go

(01:26:28):
from here? Now that this work has been done and
it's over and done with complete, what's your next step?

Speaker 5 (01:26:33):
And my next step is I guess, you know, I
guess I'll start creating t shirts and castings and as
much merchandise as I can from it, so I can
so I can at least profit from my from my endeavor,
you know, of creating this thing, all things being what
they are, you know, I bear no ill will towards Lloyd.
I'm just annoyed that that things had to turn out

(01:26:55):
the way they did, you know, and where I go.
I mean, I've my care is exactly what it is.
You know, I work as an artist. I have more
people you know, wanting me to do work for them,
and uh, you know, I I'm not affected by by
one bad you know, experience with the UFO community, because
I mean I've after after I did this work for Lloyd,

(01:27:17):
I had several other people approached me to do work
for them, and uh, and some less legitimate than others,
you know, let's just say that. And but then again,
this this, uh, this is a genre that is rife
with blackos and fringe elements and and all these people
that are just a detriment to it, because if you
look at it, I believe, and I told David this,

(01:27:40):
I believe there's a concerted effort to marginalize this movement,
any kind of UFO truth, any kind of uh exposed
exposing the that there might be extraterrestrials. Because if if
it were made known that these beings were visiting us
and all this other stuff, that would mean that, Okay,

(01:28:00):
then they obviously don't care enough life is prevalent in
the universe to the point of where they can openly
disregard us as being a sentient life.

Speaker 4 (01:28:10):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:28:10):
It's like every day we hear about, you know, new
species found in Madagascar or whatever, or a little mule
deer is found in Vietnam and the world knows about it.
I would imagine that in the universal you know, context,
that we would be in contact with aliens much in
the same way we would have visited the Pilgrims when
you know, we landed on Plymouth Rock. You know, I

(01:28:33):
think it would be a lot like that. You know,
they would probably have the same value, if not more,
of life than we did, and so it would be
you know, just as explosive to them that we exist
that they do to us. And you know, because the
universe is a big place, and you know, how do
you know who your neighbors are, you know, if if
you can't see them, that sort of thing. I guess

(01:28:55):
maybe I'm kind of getting off track here, but no.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
I think I think these are all relevant points. Tommy,
and I think it's important to point out that taking
any kind of middle ground in the paranormal realm, and
we were talking about this right before we started the
interview with you on the show. Preamble, The fact is
that taking any kind of middle ground in the field
of paranormal research quote unquote, or the discussion of paranormal

(01:29:17):
topics is very difficult. Like so many segments of our society,
what we find is that the discourse in this realm
tends to be very polarized. People are either vehemently against
or for a certain position. And when you're try to
be I won't even say scientifically objective, just intellectually objective

(01:29:39):
about this, you end up making enemies on both sides
of the fence. What you said before is very true.
I know that, speaking for myself and I think also
for Gene, we would like it so much. We would
be so happy if something like this was proven beyond
any reasonable doubt and in an truly objective scientific way
to be genuinely power normal. If this thing was truly

(01:30:03):
an alien human hybrid, that would absolutely thrill us. Listen,
at this point, I've been spending a lot of time
debunking UFO photographs and on Above top Secret. There have
been a couple of people on the Abovetopsecret dot com
website where it become somewhat more active. There have been
people who have accused me of being an NSA operative,

(01:30:23):
of being a quote unquote debunker, because I find issues
with any number of the faked, in many cases poorly
fabricated hoaxes that are presented as genuine UFO photographs. And
the thing is, I'd like nothing more in my life
than to be able to stip point in a photograph

(01:30:44):
and say, in my opinion, there's no question that this
is an unidentified flying object. And I actually believe that
there are photographs that fulfill that requirement, which of course
doesn't provide ultimately anything. You have a photo of a
UFO and that's all you've got. You don't know anything
else about it. You just know it's not one of ours.

(01:31:07):
So in the case of the starchild skull, if it
was proven beyond any reasonable doubt in a scientific fashion
that this thing was a genuine alien human hybrid, well,
I guess the magic question is what does that get us?
Where does that put us? Does that mean that most
of the world will even pay attention? I don't know.
I'll tell you this. When we talked to Lloyd, one

(01:31:30):
of the first things I asked him was Lloyd, you
say that this thing was supposed to have come out
of a certain area of Mexico, Have you made any
effort to mount a mission to go find the rest
of the skeleton that was attached to that skull. Because
if there's a skull, there's a skeleton that goes along
with it, and if you know it within some reasonable

(01:31:54):
degree where this thing was found, then it makes sense
to me to try to find the rest of it.
I believe the story was that a girl found these
two skulls, this skull and a clearly a dull uman
skull in a cave. Geez, go try to find the cave,
Go try to find the restless skeleton. If you're going

(01:32:15):
to be intellectually honest about this, mount a mission to
see where the rest of this might be. Go speak
to people in the area, Go do some cultural anthropology
and try to find that if there are any kind
of stories in the region that support this idea, because
you think if this was genuine, that there would have
been some kind of oral tradition that would have passed

(01:32:37):
the story down. When we asked Lloyd about this, he
was really just negative. He's like, well, no, it's a
big area why would I go, look there. It's like,
that's not an answer, that's not something that a genuine
researcher would tell you. It came across as some kind
of excuse. Yeah, maybe he has the skull. If he
were to get the rest of the skeleton, it would
show it was just a child, a human child, and that's.

Speaker 5 (01:32:59):
It before it's it's one of those things where you know,
I believe that if this thing was to be legitimate,
and I think that it and I'm not saying that
it isn't because nobody really knows until you know, somebody
proclaims that or some lab somewhere, you know, provides the
father's DNA or whatever, and you know you'll have a

(01:33:20):
definitive answer. But it's it goes back to you know,
I know you guys have had some bad experiences with Lloyd,
and I myself have had a really you know, horrible
one too. But if you don't have a way to
to continue to purport a fraud, then you won't, you know,
And I don't think that Lloyd has never really struck
me as being, you know, somebody who was absolutely fraudulent

(01:33:43):
with this project. You know, he said some unkind things
about me, and he said some things that you know,
you know, he could get himself in a lot of
trouble for But when it comes to this, this is
the one thing that you know, he states a lot
of facts and a lot of things, and you know,
and this, like I said, I'm not saying as praises
or anything. It's just that my experience with him on
this project is that, you know, I think he would

(01:34:05):
really like to get to the truth. And if he
does get to the truth, I would hope and I
and I'm you know again, I look for the best
in people that he would be upfront and honest and
open about what.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Happens wichause I know the problem I had is that
maybe you're right, and I don't know. And I certainly
you had probably a lot more interaction than David and
I that we had basically that show and some discussion
before and after, and maybe you're right he really wants
to get to the bottom of it. On the other hand,
it's pretty clear that he is really hoping it'll turn
out rights for him because he's put a lot to

(01:34:41):
get that approach, get that result. He's really immersed himself
in areas where he thinks it's going to prove positive.
And maybe that's one of the reasons why he didn't
want to look for a skeleton, because a skeleton may
show one way or the other. Very's wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
I'm not sure that you guys know the whole story
behind that, because of the skull and whatnot. Was there
was apparently some kind of flud or whatever It washed
away most of the remains, so that wasn't going to
be able to be found anyway out here. I'm finding myself.
I'm defending Lloyd.

Speaker 2 (01:35:11):
Well, that was never mentioned to us. I mean, that's
the first I hear about.

Speaker 4 (01:35:14):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:35:15):
I thought that was on the website. I thought that
might actually be on his website, you know, I asked
him that same question. And from what I understand, the
rest of the remains. That's how the skull got broken
in the first place. Was it was intact, and then
it was destroyed by whatever cataclysm. I guess it might
have been a flood or something. Because the squirrel that
had found these things had taken them over to a

(01:35:35):
tree or something like that and put them under a
tree where she was going to come back for him later.
And when she came back, you know, there was some
kind of flood and she was only able to find
certain parts.

Speaker 4 (01:35:54):
You're in the podcast with Gigie Steinbert with David Vanny
You Never know what's going on in the next.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
You're in the Powercast with Gene Steinberg and David Bietne
talking to Tommy Allison about his encounters with investigating the
Star Travel, producing a forensic reconstruction, and the aftermath. David,
go ahead, please, Well, we asked Lloyd about the skeleton
on the show, and interestingly enough, Tommy, he never brought
any of that up. I mean, he had an opportunity

(01:36:28):
to present them and he didn't for whatever reasons. I
don't think we were particularly well, you know what I
think about aesn't matter. The listeners thought that I did
go into this with a preconceived notion, and I admit
that I had read the Wikipedia entry on Lloyd, and
as I brought up before, when I read this, somebody's
written a book called Everything you Know Is Wrong. Then

(01:36:50):
I guess I did have a preconceived notion about him,
and that you know, basically, he had a preconceived notion
about objectivity, and I don't think that's I mean, everything
you know is wrong?

Speaker 5 (01:37:02):
Well, just so you understand, I'm not like, you know,
kind of trying to say this guy's praises or defendive.
I just you know, I thought that you guys knew
what I knew because I you know, I read his
website and you know, most of the stuff on it.
So I mean it's, uh, you know, I'm a pretty
objective guy, because that's you know, when you try to
do stuff that's accurate, you have to be objective. You
can't just be making stuff up as you go.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
Sure, absolutely, which.

Speaker 5 (01:37:24):
You know, and I think of this is that I
you know, Lloyd never struck me as somebody that did
that with this with reference to this, because uh, you know,
my version of reality and your version of reality may
be two entirely different things. You know, we we can
have we can have differences of opinion, but when it
came right down to this thing, I mean, you know,
I I I didn't have a bad experience with Lloyd

(01:37:47):
as far as legitimacy on this or intellectual honesty like
you guys did. You guys had a completely different experience
with Lloyd in that regard, And you know that's that's
you know, that's something that's uh you know, you have
to do with lowing on the experience that I had
with Lloyd. You know, it was great up until you know,
we had, like I said, misunderstanding. And but does that

(01:38:11):
change my opinion of the work based on that, No,
not necessarily, because a lot of the people that are
peripherally involved in this are are actually more educated than
Lloyd and and definitely more educated than myself. I mean,
I've got a lot of college behind me. But some
of these guys like this, this one particular guy named
doctor David Sweet who works with Lloyd, He's going to

(01:38:32):
be I think the equivalent of Knighted in Canada. You
know this is this is a brilliant guy who runs
the Bold Lab in Canada. When you have that kind
of person working with you, then you know that there's
a certain amount of legitimacy to the study and to
the research. And I'm not saying that, you know, Lloyd
has you know, been one hundred percent you know, you know,

(01:38:53):
intellectually honest about anything. I will say this, though, I
think there are enough people around him that would would
make those decisions as well, you know, would be able
to to bring pressure to bear if there was any
kind of impropriety, because I mean, here's the thing is
that you know, I judge myself by the company I keep,
and and you know what, I don't. I don't think
ill will, you know, towards people. I don't. I don't

(01:39:14):
think bad thoughts about people until they you know, they've
done something really egregious. And Lloyd has pissed me off.
But you know that's only between me and the Lloyd.
You know, I'm not going to sit there and rail
on the gay. Sure, I've had one bad experience with him.
I clearly do not want this to be you know,
let's hate Lloyd together for a couple of hours on
the radio kind of a thing, you know, because I you.

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
Know, well, no, no, no, Tommy, Tommy, we have to
pull back from the personalities and just look at the facts.
I mean, all of that.

Speaker 5 (01:39:43):
And that's and that's where I'm going with this, is
that you know, the fact is is that I personally
have not had the lack of objectivity with this because Lloyd,
up until the time that that we had are falling out,
agreed with ninety nine point nine percent of everything that
I presented him with all of my research that I
did on my own all of my sources. All of
that stuff drove me to this conclusion, which he was

(01:40:05):
happy with. And and that was the thing is that
you know, the the only the only time that I
had any real problems with him was when we had
our disagreement and he sought to marginalize me in the
eyes of his his people that he was working with.
You know, it's unfortunate that he that he went out
of his way to do that, but it ultimately it

(01:40:27):
worked out just fine for me because I got a
great piece of artwork that I can turn into cash
if I want to. I can make money and profit
from it. And I had a great experience doing something
that I was interested in. You know, this is this
is a project that is you know, it was really
near and dear to my heart too. I really was
enthused to do it, you know, and spend.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
Spend that kount of time on an effort.

Speaker 5 (01:40:49):
The thing this is that I approached Lloyd one hundred percent.
He didn't ask me to do anything. So you know,
the when I look at this objectively, you know, it's
it's just one angry person versus another angry person. But
the work is still good. You know, there's there's still
some meaning to this, even if it goes absolutely nowhere
or fasting language is at least you know there's somebody
out there putting, you know, a different idea out there

(01:41:12):
in front of the public. Absolutely and from that, and
for that, I can, I can let go of a
lot of my resentment and a lot of anger because
you know, you have to admire somebody that that flo
outs the norm. But at the same time, you know,
like you're you're absolutely right, you know, let's let's be
intellectually honest. Let's ask some of these questions. And I
don't know why he wouldn't have told you some of
the things that he told me. But then again, maybe

(01:41:33):
it was because I had several conversations with him on
the phone, I had different conversations via email and uh
and maybe you know, due to time constraints that you
had on with with him, maybe he wasn't able to
touch on that or get to it. I'm not trying to,
you know, to defend the guy, but I you know,
the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what transpire
between you two. If I knew, then then I would

(01:41:54):
be I would be able to say one way or
the other.

Speaker 2 (01:41:56):
Well, I think I speak on and I think David
would agree with me here that if he were to
contact us again and we wanted to discuss our differences,
and certainly we'd be happy to do that. Well, we
asked him, We asked him, and he flat out said
no way. He actually said it in a really vulgar way.
That's really unfortunate. And here's the main point though, Ultimately,

(01:42:17):
trying to gain legitimacy in the eyes of the masses
for these topics requires that we are all objective, that
we try to be as intellectually honest as possible, that
we all be open minded. And Gene and I have
really put a lot on the line with this show.
We both, I would say, ultimately we've harmed our professional

(01:42:38):
careers by having this show and by being real visible
with this, because we are genuinely interested in understanding what
the real truth is behind some of the stuff. Look,
if it turns out that every UFO ever witnessed, including
the ones I've seen, is a secret government project, I'll
accept that. I'll accept any truth that ends up being confirmable, testable, provable.

(01:43:02):
If all of this turns out to be absolute nonsense, well, hell, man,
that'd be great. We can all get on with our lives. Yeah,
we could also regain our lives maybe well yeah, so ultimately,
and again, Tommy and Gene, I mean, this is all
about stepping back from the personalities. Is saying, let's look
at the phenomenon, let's forget about the personalities, because clearly,

(01:43:23):
and especially in the realm of UFOs, the personalities have
really poisoned the pool, and they've made it so that
it is almost impossible to have a serious discussion in
a mixed crowd. The minute you say UFO, you know,
it's tinfoil hats and little green men. And we're trying
to change the tone of that conversation. I really believe

(01:43:45):
that's what we're trying to do. And if it gets
the point where it seems like we're not having that
effect and we're not doing that, I'm the first one
to say to Gene, let's just kill the show, because
what's the point. Well, I think for now we're going
to continue to continue. As they say. Tommy Allison, thank
you so much for joining us on the Power Cast.
We look forward to having you back, maybe more into

(01:44:05):
your own experiences and background, and maybe we will be
able to find this meeting of minds with Lloyd Pye
to pursue his information further, and we hope the good
things will come on future episodes of The Powercast.

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
The Power Cast with Jeene Steinberg and David Yeti is
a production of Making Him Possibly Incorporated. Join us next
week for a new adventure in the Power Cast.

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Classic Episode: May 20, 2007 — Tommy Allison Exposes Starchild

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Classic Episode: May 20, 2007 — Tommy Allison Exposes Starchild