December 1, 2024 — Paranormal Expert Professor Wham - The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're in the Para Cast, the gold standard of paranormal radio,
and now here's Jean Steinberg.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Unfortunately, the world's getting smaller. On this episode the Power Cast,
we're going to start by talking about the recent passing
of a close friend of ours, and I think our
listeners know who that is. If you haven't heard, you'll
know in a couple of seconds. I first encountered Chris
O'Brien when he appeared on the Para Cast, first talking

(00:55):
about his investigations of the Mysterious Valley and then a
book he did called Stalking the Tricksters, and he was
just a terrific guest. And when our original co host
David Biedney left the show, within a few months we
had Chris on as the regular co host. He stayed
until twenty eighteen and then more or less focused more

(01:18):
on his research. They were Stalking the Herd, and he
was working on a follow up book with David Perkins,
who was also no longer with us. So I don't
know where that's going to go. David Beetney died earlier
this year. Chris had COPD and frequent breathing problems. He
had one of those breathalyzers and other appliances that one

(01:41):
uses for that. And Sunday This would be the twenty
fourth of November twenty twenty four, depending on when you're
listening to the show. Sunday, he had breathing problems and
rather than wait for someone to take him or call
nine to eleven, he drove or tried to drive to
the emergency room. I think based on what they're saying,

(02:05):
and I'm the only guessing, but it seems to be right.
He blacked out on the way and got into an accident.
And unfortunately, Chris is no longer with us. And I'll
tell you he was a great guy. Sometimes we disagree
on things, but he was a really sweet guy and
he did personal things to help me that I'll always appreciate.

(02:28):
It's just really sad he's no longer here. Tim, how
did you know Chris?

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh my gosh, I can't even remember how long it's
been since I first met Chris.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
Wow. Uh.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
It was through Tim Beckley, of course, and we had
Chris on a couple of times on some of the
shows that we did before the parag casts. Back in
the ancient times of podcasting. Chris did some writing for
for Beckley every now and then, so we communicated back

(03:10):
and forth on copyrighting and you know, coll edding and
things like that that I would handle for Beckley's stuff.
So oh, my gosh, I just you know, and and
to hear what happened to him on Sunday, it was
just it was just really a shock and just just sad,

(03:32):
just really just really sad that then I won't be
able to talk with him anymore.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Even though he left the show, he'd come back every
year or so, every six months or so and we
catch up. He was also involved in this UFO data
project where they're setting up a network of detection equipment
to photograph and record information about possible paranormalistic and such
as in the Mysterious Valley and elsewhere. And I assume

(04:00):
that's going to continue because other people are involved and
we'll be talking with them. But that's another thing. The
other issue, of course, is Chris had a blog our
Strange Planet dot com, And long and short is I
own his domains and host the blog. So now we're
going to see if we can find somebody else to

(04:20):
take it over or just leave it as a legacy
kind of like we're doing with Jim Moseley where we
have Jimmoseley dot com. Like I said, Jim is no
longer with us. Tim Beckley somebody I knew, probably for
like sixty years. You can't know anybody for sixty years,
but somehow I did, and he left us several years ago. So,

(04:41):
as I said, a small, small world, and it's growing darker,
but we're going to persevere. The Power Cast has been
on for nearly nineteen years, believe it or not, and
someday we'll get it right. Our guest is Professor Wham.
And before I ask her anything, how does one get

(05:04):
to be called professor Wham.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
This is a very long story, so I will make
it as short as possible. It took about a decade
for me to be called Professor Wam. The Wham which
is Wham so that people don't confuse it with the
rock group, the pop group, or wham. That originated back
when Facebook started. When I first got on Facebook, which

(05:30):
was I don't know when that was two thousand and seven,
two thousand and eight, whenever that was, And I was
using a very long Arabic name for myself because I
don't ever use my actual name, my regular name on Facebook,
and also because I'm practicing Sufi, so it was actually

(05:51):
my Sufi name is what I was using. And I
had a friend who I guess because she just did
want to she refused to spell it out or pronounce it,
so she created an acronym out of that name, Wham,
And so I started to be called that. And then

(06:14):
I back probably in god, it's to twenty twenty four now, right,
so back in like maybe twenty eleven twenty twelve, I
started to return to the larger paranormal universe. I'd been
gone from it for about a decade because I was
getting like my master's, my PhD, and you know, was

(06:38):
sort of out of the loop. And so I started
doing podcasts and doing interviews and interviewing people and doing research,
and a lot of people asked me, you know, what
handle do you want to use, and so I just said,
I just said, wham. Call me wham because it was

(06:58):
I kind of thought of it as like a super
power name, you know, kind of like if you remember
in cartoons when the Batman cartoons, when they'd hit each
other and it'd be bam pop, you know that sort
of thing. So people started calling me that and then
the professor came. It was probably in about twenty sixteen

(07:21):
twenty seventeen. I live in the mid Hudson Valley and
I started doing public presentations in venues around her small venues.
There was a place that was called Enchanted Cafe, where
I did a lot of presentations, sometimes on paranormal topics,

(07:41):
because the guy who ran the place was really interested
in bigfoot and I had gotten involved in investigating bigfoot
reports here in the Hudson Valley, and so I was
presenting myself as Wham in these in these venues and
this guy, because I have PhD, this the guy of

(08:02):
the Enchanted Cafe, he started calling me professor and so
he was the one who coined professor Wham, and it
just seemed to fit. And then other people started calling
me that, and so that that's just sort of what
people call me. I'm also known as doctor C. S.
Matthews as an author, so you know, that's the other
thing people know me as. So that's a short version

(08:25):
of the story.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
At least you didn't call yourself professor pop No or
po or professor Pau. That'd be a good.

Speaker 5 (08:33):
One, right, well, And I think it's okay because people
seem to like it, and it's and it seems to
stick out, and it naturally evolved, you know what I mean.
It's not something I created. It's actually something that other
people kind of created for me over time, so that
makes it okay for me to use it.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Well, we are called, of course, the gold standard of
paranormal radio, but it's not my ego. There listeners started
calling us that, and we figured back, why not, let's
just let's do it. Let's get ourselves some extra promotions.
So we'll continue doing.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
That, right, And that's a lot. I've always known you guys,
so that's how I've known you.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
So listen, whatever, whatever works, whatever sells, you know, it's
it's something. So it's a branding exercise, which I guess
professor Wham has become a branding exercise.

Speaker 5 (09:29):
Yes, I guess, so that is my brand name.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay, do you sell WAM T shirts and such?

Speaker 5 (09:36):
I don't, but I do have a website professor wam
dot com.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
So ah, that's good. Good that you got that. Before
somebody says I've got it and you can get it
for five grand or something like that, we don't want to.
We've got professor Wham this week with a lot more
to talk about with Gene then with Chris. You're in
the Paracast.

Speaker 6 (09:57):
I'm repeating, We're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 7 (10:06):
Hi, this is James Fox, director of the Phenomenon and
Moment of Contact. You're listening to the para Cast, the
gold standard of paranormal radio.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
The show is going to end up being insane laughter here,
and that's because I'm insane. So that's how it goes.
Professor Wham is with us. She explores the paranormal. But
before we do that, we talked in the last segment
about the late Chris O'Brien about his unexpected, tragic passing.

(10:48):
I understand, Professor Wham, that you knew him well.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
I didn't know him as well as you did. I
had some brief but meaningful correspondence with him. Back in
twenty twenty two, I had done a blog and video
going back and looking at that really important first text,
Mystery Stocks the Prairie, you know, which was probably one

(11:14):
of the first books ever done about cattle mutilations. And
part of the reason I'd done that. I've been doing
that in my blog over time, as I've been going
back to older texts, maybe texts that some people don't
know about, especially the new generation of you know, paranormal investigators,

(11:35):
and kind of reviewing them and bringing them up to date,
and maybe in the case of Mystery Stocks the Prairie,
actually talking about my own experience with cattle mutilations, because
I had an experience with one, or you know, witnessing
one not occurring, but you know the aftermath. Obviously in

(11:55):
the early seventies when I lived in a fairly rural
place in eastern Kansas, when they were having them there.
This was before Linda Moulton Howe became the spokesperson about
these things. It was even before all those cases in
Montana occurred. It was one of the early ones, apparently,

(12:16):
And so I wanted to tell the story of that,
and to do that, I wanted to place mutilations in
a context. So I reviewed Mystery Stalks the Prairie, and
then I talked about Stalking the Herd, which I've always
considered to be like a really extraordinary book. Apparently word
got around about this blog, probably through some of the

(12:40):
people that I know. I'm connected to some paranormal groups online,
and apparently the word got around to Chris and to
David Perkins, and they contacted me, and so we just
had some conversation about what might be going on some
of the more recent cases, like those in Oregon, for example,

(13:02):
because I talked a little bit about those in the
in the video, and they were just both very generous people,
and David and I had a little bit of disagreement
about some of the some of the conclusions of certain
kinds of data, but it was all very friendly, you know,
it was fine. And so I've I've always in the

(13:28):
topic of stalking the herd came up again because I
just recently, I guess it's been about ten days ago now,
I did another blog video on the dovid enigma and
that particular set of paranormal occurrences which happened in the

(13:50):
mid to late seventies, you know, kind of approximately at
the same time that those cattle mutilations were going on
in Montana were also noted for the effects that they
had on animals, even though there were no mutilations that
were reported then. So, you know, that book was sort
of in my mind when I was doing that that

(14:15):
second most recent blog, and so when I heard about it,
I was just stunned. So weird. I've just been thinking
about them and thinking about him and gone back and
like reread the correspondence, you know, and then I hear
about this, So it was just weird. It was like
kind of a weird synchronicity, but not a happy one.

Speaker 6 (14:38):
You know.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
So I didn't know him like you did, but I
had very good experiences with both him and David. And
that's that's all I can really say.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I have an interesting story about Chris. Of course, he
co hosted The Power Cast, like I said, for eight years,
and during that time we tried to get Linda molten
Howe on the show, but Chris and Linda are rivals
or were rivals with regard to catalization lore. So she
was about to come on and then she learned that

(15:12):
Chris was co host of the show, and we never
ever heard from her again.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
Wow, that's me.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Egos, Yeah, egos.

Speaker 5 (15:23):
I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if
you may, you know, I mean I don't know if
you I guess if you make your living and you've
committed yourself deeply to a particular view of something, you
might consider it to be dangerous to be talking to

(15:43):
someone who is your rival. But to me, it's terribly
interesting to talk about the different ways in which these
things can be understood, you know, So anyway, I did
not know that that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Well, you wonder. Also, because researchers have different points of view,
it doesn't necessarily mean they have to be rivals.

Speaker 6 (16:08):
You know.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
It's like records exactly. If you like Taylor Swift and
someone else prefers old Beatles tunes, you could like both.
They're not rivals. Even the Rolling Stones and the Beatles,
although they were technically rivals, were in private good friends.
They were hurt on each other's albums as a matter
of fact, but that's an old story. Okay, should I

(16:32):
call you wham? What would you like to be called?

Speaker 5 (16:35):
Whatever? You want? You call meam? Oh boy?

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Oh boy, Now we're in trouble.

Speaker 5 (16:44):
I'm not overly attached. I'll put it that way.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Okay, well I'll notice that. But what do your friends
call you?

Speaker 5 (16:57):
Well, it depends on who they are. I have lots
of different names. I do have, Like I said, I
do have a Sufi name and that is Wahaba. And
uh then my you know work, they call me Carol
and I hate that because it's a fine name if
you know my my mundane name is a fine name
if one was a pediatrist, but I'm not one. So

(17:20):
but of course I use I used the legal end
of it just to do it, so, but you can
call me when that's fine. That's what I've been using
in in professional circles for the most part.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
You know, now you have a pre extensive technical background,
as you've been telling us here. But what led you
to the world of the paranormal.

Speaker 5 (17:43):
Oh, I've been doing I've been I've been doing paranormal
stuff since first grade. And this will date me way
back in uh let's see the sixth girl in since
I was six years old actually, which would have been
in nineteen sixty seven, So that dates me. And the

(18:10):
reason for that is when I was about five or
six years old. I don't remember. I'd have to go
back and try to figure out exactly how old I was.
I just remember where we were living in Chattanooga, Tennessee
at the time. But I had a UFO experience with

(18:32):
a friend of mine, a very close sighting, and I
didn't know what it was at the time. I was
too young to really understand what it was. And it
was a number of years later that I realized that
other people saw these things. But it was a terrifying experience.

(18:54):
It scared me to It's one of the formative experiences
of my life. And it changed me. And you know,
I was there with a friend who was a neighborhood
friend who was a little bit older than I was,
and she saw it first, and you know, and the

(19:16):
event proceeded. And I mean, I can tell you about
it if you want me to. It's uh, it's we
were on a swing set, we were in the backyard.
It was maybe late May, early June. I don't know exactly,
but I do know it was on a Sunday because

(19:37):
we had come home from church.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Well here Professor Wham's sighting at the age of six.
How about that with Wham and Jean and Tim. You're
in the past.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Hi, this is Bryce Abel. I'm the producer of Dark Skies,
the co author of ad After Disclosure.

Speaker 8 (20:11):
And you are listening to the Paracast, the gold standard
of paranormal radio.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
So, Professor Wham, you're on the swing set, right, which
is friend.

Speaker 5 (20:26):
Yeah, with my friend, and we're just hanging out, you know,
And it was I do remember there are things I
do remember very clearly because of what happened was it
was a muggy day. It was hot, it was hazy,
but bright outside the way it actually sometimes was in

(20:50):
Chattanooga at the time, because at that time Chattanooga had
a real smog problem, pollution, air pollution, air pollution problem,
and so that was partly why it was hazy outside.
And anyway, we were sitting on the on in the
back yard, in the backyard at the swing set, and

(21:14):
all of a sudden, she said, what is that or
something like that, And I looked up into the sky
and quite close to us, but sort of high up
in the air. It wasn't horizontally far away, but it
was kind of high up was a silver object and
it looked, you know, it was kind of I mean,
I didn't know this at the time, but it was

(21:36):
a classic sort of saucer shape with you know, like
the two pipe plates on top of each other, you know,
with a and there was like a lip around where
the two edges joined, and it was sort of tilted
towards us, like maybe at three quarter view, and there
was this very dark red dome. And what I remember

(22:02):
the most about it was that it very clearly appeared
to be solid because there was light, some light reflecting
off of it, and it was just hanging in the
air above us. And I had some kind of deep

(22:23):
emotional reaction to the color of the dome. I remember
there was something about it that really scared me. I
just had this really I don't know if you've ever
felt a shudder of horror or terror, like real terror,
you know, but I had one of those reactions. And

(22:43):
I remember I was so discomforted by it as a kid,
it felt like it was looking at us, and I
was so discomforted as a kid that I actually turned
around and put my back to it so I wouldn't
be looking right at it. And every now and then
I'd turn around and sort of look to see if
it was still there. And all I really remember about

(23:05):
the next few minutes was that she and I started
having this very strange conversation about life in the universe.
I mean, I'm six years old, she was maybe ten,
I don't remember exactly, but we started having this really
deep conversation for a young for young people, and I

(23:28):
can remember at the time thinking to myself, why am
I talking about this? What is going on here? It's
like the first moment in my life that I can
remember up to that point where I became very aware
of myself as a person, as like a distinct being.
It's very strange. And then all of a sudden, she

(23:52):
heard her she heard her mom down the street calling
her for dinner. You know, this is before I for
herself phones, obviously, and so she ran off, and here
I was alone with this thing. And I turned around
and it was still there. I mean, we're talking. I
don't know how much time passed because I was a

(24:13):
little kid, so you know, later on I realized that
more time had to have passed than I thought at
the time that I don't know how much time passed.
And I remember turning around and seeing it again and
realizing now that she'd run off. I was by myself
out there with this thing, and I felt that shudder

(24:35):
again and just ran into the house and we had
dinner and everything, and sometime later in the evening, you know,
as the sun was going down. I can remember coming
out the back door. The back door there was like
a car port, and you came out the back door
and you had to kind of go around the edge

(24:57):
of the car port and if you went around the
edge of the car and kind of looked out to
your left, you see the backyard where I had been.
And so I can remember going out to the back
door and coming around and kind of creeping around till
I got to the corner of the car port and
just sort of looked to see if that thing was
still there. But it was gone, and I can remember

(25:20):
this incredible sense of relief. It's like, and the thought
inside of my head was, oh good, it won't come
get me, or something like that. It was weird, you know,
I had this really intense reaction to it. I had
not heard of UFOs. I was too young to know
about flying saucers or anything. My parents. I was raised

(25:41):
in a very very conservative religious household, I mean almost
cultish in a certain kind of way, and so what
I saw on TV was heavily controlled. I wasn't permitted
to just watch TV anytime I wanted to. There were
some things I could watch, so I didn't have a
lot of I didn't have any friend vera reference at

(26:03):
all for what I saw. And it wasn't until some
years later, probably maybe the early seventies or something like
maybe seventy one or seventy two, I started having some
conversations with a cousin of mine who lived in Iowa
at the time, and he had apparently had some odd

(26:24):
experiences too, and he was older, and he had gotten
into some UFO books. In fact, one of the books
that I remember he got was It's called UFO Top Secret.
It was, you know, it was I guess it was
sort of a popular book in the late sixties or
early seventies, and he had actually stolen it from the library.

(26:47):
But his parents didn't want him, you know, to be
in on this stuff either. And I remember he had
he had stolen it, and he'd gotten like a comic book,
and he'd ripped the middle of the comic book out
and he'd stuck the book get there, so he'd read
the book and pretend he was reading a comic book
to keep it from his mom. But it wasn't until
him and me talking to him, and then me seeing

(27:09):
something on the TV. I can't remember whether it was.
I think it seems in my mind it must have
been when Walter Cronkite was on and he was announcing
the end of Project Bluebook or something. It was something
like that, because it was on mainstream television, and they
showed a picture of like a UFO or a photo

(27:32):
of one, and I can remember sitting there watching it
on the TV and going, oh, my god, other people
see these things. It was like, oh, that was something
that I saw because it had always been in my
head and I had, you know, it, after I had
seen that my own life was not the same. It's
like I started having nightmares after that, which I had

(27:54):
never had nightmares before. I started having just just and
I also developed interest in other strange things. So, you know,
like one of the first books that I ever purchased
from the Scholastic books, you know where you could buy
books for yourself, and this was in the first grade
or second grade, was a book that was called Strange

(28:16):
but True. And you know these were supposedly I guess
we'd call it forty Ana now, you know, books about
UFOs and ghosts. And so I got into this kind
of young, but it came through an actual experience. And
I do have to say that I was also in
the household that I was brought up in. My father,

(28:36):
even though he was very conservative he recently died actually
about six months ago. Even though he's very conservative and
you know, religiously conservative. He he had had a number
of strange experiences himself in his life, and he had
had he'd had a few UFO experiences, although I didn't

(28:58):
find out about those till later, but he had had
a number of ghost experiences, experiences with poltergeist's, experiences with
missing time and that kind of thing. And I didn't
find out about a lot of that until later, but
it affected the way in which he sort of operated,
like in the household, because he deeply believed in spirits.

(29:21):
He deeply believed in, you know, the other world and
kind of in a superstitious kind of way. And so
I think that was part of the reason why he
was one of the things that he tried to forbid
me from, you know, being in contact with that kind
of stuff, because he was afraid of it.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
We're going to have to break here. Okay, we've professor
Wham and she's telling us about her early experiences, her
exposure to the world of the paranormal with Jean Chris
and Wham.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
You're in the Perra cast.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
We'd like to hear from you. If you have a
comment or question about the Paracast, send it to News
at the paracast dot com. That's news at the paracast
dot com. And don't forget to visit our famous Paracast
community forums at forum dot theparacast dot com.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
We have Professor Wham with us. He's telling us about
her early exposure to paranormal lure and thus may you continue?

Speaker 5 (30:30):
Okay? And I guess I didn't really. I think that
once I got a little bit older. This would have
been in the seventies, I was in middle school, in
high school, and I had had allowance, and so I
could purchase some of my own things now, and I
remember getting a book by I think it was Ralph

(30:52):
and Judy Bloom called Beyond Earth. You might remember some
of these books. The book that really changed me, that
helped me to understand my context, that placed everything that
I had experienced and even my household into a certain
kind of context, was Mothman Prophecies by John Keel. And

(31:17):
that book simultaneously terrified me and enthralled me, and helped
me to understand that there was you know, these experiences
that I had had were part of a much larger
universe of odd experiences. Oh and in the meantime, in

(31:40):
the early seventies, Like I had already said, that's when
I experienced that cattle mutilation that I had mentioned earlier.
Was that mutilation actually happened just down the street from
where I lived. We lived in a very rural area
at the time, and there had been a number of
strange cattle deaths. This was in like nineteen seventy three.

(32:03):
This is an eastern Kansas that had been reported. They
were in the local newspapers, and I had noticed that
one of them, I mean they would give the address
or the name of the farm, you know, where they
had occurred, and I noticed that one was like less
than a quarter of a mile from my house, and
I was like, oh my god. You know, they were

(32:24):
saying that cultists had killed these animals, you know, Satanists,
And in my mind, I was like, I wonder what
a Satanist would do with a cow.

Speaker 9 (32:33):
You know.

Speaker 5 (32:33):
I was curious about that because I'd been raised at
least part of my early life on a farm in Kansas,
my grandparents' farm, so I knew about cattle deaths. I
had seen those all kinds of cattle deaths, So I
was just curious. So I got on my bike and
I knuck out onto this property, and you know, I

(32:55):
talk about it one of my podcasts. And I snuck
out onto the property and somehow I did find the cow,
and it had what I now know were a lot
of classic signs of mutilation. It had been dead for
several days. There was no carrion, there were no blowflies,

(33:16):
there was no bloating, there was no telltale sign of
decay or putrefaction, which was bizarre since it was in
June in Kansas and it was hot. There were these
cookie cutter like marks with serrated edges that had been
cut out of its hide. Its left ear was missing

(33:39):
and I was missing. I don't know if its tongue
was missing because I didn't get that close to it,
but its rectum was cored out. I mean, all of
that stuff was there, and it was unlike anything I'd
ever seen. It was bizarre, and I remember the and
actually just the way that the animal looked. It didn't
look like it had fallen over or had been taken down.

(34:00):
It looked like it was all splayed out. It looked
like it had been like at least dropped or kind
of smashed down. It was very strange, and I don't
think that the If I remember right, the farmer didn't
do a cropsy. He just buried it right there because
it freaked him out so bad. So I, you know,

(34:21):
I snuck on I saw it. I kind of memorized
what I saw because I didn't have notes with me,
and I just I snuck back off the farm and
went away, and I thought to myself, that's like the
weirdest thing I've ever seen, you know, And then years
later I find out this is a thing. So anyway,
going back to John Keel, you know, I read that

(34:41):
book later after I had seen that and thought, oh
my god, you know, this is part of this bizarre
world of odd occurrences. And so that I started, actually,
I would say, sort of actively investigating, just sort of
on my own, Like it was around seventy eight or

(35:03):
seventy nine, so it's been a long time. And eventually
in the nineties up to two thousand and one, you know,
eventually I ended up in graduate school and did a
master's degree in religious studies where I looked at the
transformative and spiritual aspects of UFO contact experiences. And then

(35:27):
I did a PhD where I looked at the UFO
alien abduction narrative in the United States. So I've done
both my Masters and my PhD on aspects of UFO
stuff specifically, but I've investigated and helped to investigate lots

(35:47):
of things, and I've tended to do this sort of
on my own. I was a member of moufon for
a little while, but my interest is broader than UFO,
so I didn't and I'm not much of a joiner,
you know, I don't really join organizations that much, so

(36:07):
because I kind of I kind of like to do
my own thing. So yeah, that's that kind of summarizes it.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
I find it interesting that your initial UFO experience, you
said something that I've heard a lot of people say
to me about their experiences. Is that first that you
felt like that it was looking at you, that it
was aware of your presence, and that you were aware

(36:37):
of it.

Speaker 5 (36:40):
Oh, yeah, no, it was. It was I very strongly
felt we were being observed, like it was purposefully observing us,
and it didn't look like anything I'd ever seen before.
We actually lived fairly where we lived in Chattanooga, fairly
close to the airport there, and my father, who'd been

(37:05):
the military, would often you know, he'd sit out in
the backyard and he would explain to us the different
kinds of aircraft that went by, you know that we'd see.
So we'd see helicopters, and we'd see different kinds of planes,
and we'd once several times we saw the Goodyear blimp,
you know, go bye. This was completely different, and it

(37:26):
was It's difficult to convey how scary it was to me,
you know, to anyone, because you can just say that,
but it was a very visceral kind of terror, Like
I felt it in my guts, and it made it
very uncomfortable. And when I think back on.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
No, Glad finished the sentence.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
I'm sorry, No, I.

Speaker 5 (37:53):
Was just going to say, when I think back on
my memories of myself, you know, as a child, I
find my reactions for really interesting. You know, the fact
that I turned my back, that it made me that uncomfortable,
you know, I mean that to me, that really signals

(38:14):
a sense of reality to it. You know that it
wasn't just my imagination because I turned my back to
it so I couldn't see it. But then I turned
around and look and it was still there. You know.
It's it's it's really uncanny.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
Well, that's That's one of the other things that that
people have often told me was that that gut reaction
of fear, that almost primitive, like the reptilian brain type
of fear coming up with their experience. Now, you know anymore,

(38:56):
you know, a lot of people will be like, oh,
you know, I really want to see UFO. People who have,
especially those who really have no previous knowledge of the phenomena,
you know, often say it was it was the scariest
thing ever, and I can't explain why it was so frightening.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
You know, Tim, This almost brings to mind the fact
that some people, some people regard UFO encounters as positive.
The space brothers are here to save us from ourselves
and others. You know, it's frightening, and that's not an
unusual thing. People who may feel they've been abducted by UFOs,

(39:37):
they might suffer from PTSD. We're joined by Professor Wham
and we're talking about her encounters with UFOs, lore about
cattle mulations, and a lot more with Wham. Jean, Tim,
you're in the barracast.

Speaker 8 (40:01):
Hi, this is Don Ecker, and you are tuned into
the para cast. Let me tell you what you're going
to hear Steph here that you probably won't hear anywhere else.
Hear that George snoring.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
So Tim, would you want to continue the questioning of
Professor Wham.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
It makes me think, and I wish I could remember
the title of the book now, But there there is
a book that has been written and it's primarily aimed
towards people who may be in bad situations, and it
has to do with learning to identify your fear and

(40:43):
not ignoring it. And a lot of these cases makes
me think about this this book. I think it has
written a lot of times for women who are in
uncomfortable situations and you know, not to not to smile
and ignore it, but to you identify your fear because

(41:04):
it's probably know, it's a natural reaction to probably a
bad situation. So it makes me wonder a lot of
times about these UFO experiences, if that is, if the
same thing is going on with them.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
Well, I think that. I think part of it is
also just encountering something you have no frame of reference to.
I've had several UFO citing since, not quite as dramatic
as that, but I have had like about three or
four since. In fact, I had one here where I

(41:45):
live now about three years ago, and they they don't
affect me in quite the same way, obviously, because I
have more of a sense of I don't have any
idea what they are, but I have more of a
sense of of I have a frame of reference for it.
What I think about is a good friend of mine

(42:06):
who's actually a he's actually a physical trainer at my gym,
and he tells the story of when he first encountered
when he hasn't had lots of these experiences, but when
he encountered bigfoot, when he saw bigfoot here in the
Hudson Valley the first time he saw one. He's seen
one a couple times, and he had no frame of

(42:28):
reference for his experience either. He was young, he was
a young teenager, and they were out partying in the
mountains on Overlooked Mountain, which is the mountain that's right
behind Woodstock, you know, the town Woodstock or the village Woodstock,
And they were at a camping ground and they were
just hanging out and you know, just having fun with

(42:48):
a bunch of kids. And he went to you know,
do the call of nature and had this extraordinary experience
where he felt something watching him, and he turned around
and there it was, and it was clearly illuminated by
the moonlight, like a full moon, and it was hitting
it right in the face, so it wasn't like, you know,

(43:11):
and it was pretty close to him, and it was
just standing there watching him, and he had no frame
of reference for that. He didn't know about bigfoot. He'd
never heard of bigfoot. He certainly didn't know that people
saw them here. And he had the same reaction that
I had, which was he just completely froze. And he

(43:32):
said that they stared at each other for a while,
and then all of a sudden, his concentration was broken
by his friends who were yelling for him, because apparently
he had been gone for a while and he didn't
know it, and so he looked, you know, it broke
his concentration. He looked away, and he looked back, and
it was gone just that quick. And he talks about

(43:54):
how that changed him, because it's like you're encountering something
that you have no frame of reference for, and it's
terrifying for that reason alone. And you know it's real
because because it's right in front of you and you're
having a completely normal reaction to something that's odd to me,

(44:16):
that kind of terror is completely normal, you know, because
I've also heard of other people who've had a similar
kind of experience when they've encountered something that's less paranormal
but equally distressing, like walking in walking in on a
murder victim. We have frame of reference for murder victims,

(44:40):
but it's still very traumatic if it's especially if it's
someone that you know and you've never seen this particular
kind of thing before. Now, that particular thing has not
happened to me, but I have talked to people for
whom that has happened. I know people for whom that
has happened, and it's a similar kind of you know,

(45:03):
your reality just shatters basically, and what you thought you know,
you don't know. You realize there's all kinds of things
you don't know. And as I've gotten older, to me
that's actually a really incredible thing, you know. Now I
think about it and it's like, wow, you know, the
universe is so much bigger because I know that there's

(45:26):
so much more to it than just even what we see.
But at the time, it's terrifying, you know, And in
the case of the murder victim. You know, you're you're
finding out things about human beings that you really don't
want to know.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
You know what, you just reminded me of something here
just goes back to like nineteen sixty nine. I am
the news director, young tender age of what twenty four
years old at a radio station in Springfield, Vermont, and
i'd cover the news and one of the events was
a murder. So, with the police's permission, I entered the

(46:06):
house and we saw somebody bent over with a big
knife in his back. WHOA, okay, yeah, I didn't look
at all the details. I said, all right, well, I
don't really want to see this, but that's my job.
The police in order to basically deal with this. Every day,
you'd have this gallows humor where they would say things

(46:30):
to each other. At the time, I thought it was offensive,
but I realized this is something they have to cope with.
You know, just anyone seeing someone dead is hard enough.
Imagine people whose job it is to protect people and
they see this all the.

Speaker 5 (46:46):
Time, right exactly. Yeah, So I mean it's not exactly
the same, but it's the same kind of I think now,
I think that's part of the reason why if you
kind of look at the like larger paranormal community generally,
you know, you get a mishmash of things. You know,
you get you get you know, UFOs and ghosts and

(47:09):
and all that that kind of stuff. But then in
a lot of podcasts you also get like horror fiction,
or you get or you get true crime. You know,
if you think like of a series like Unsolved Mysteries,
you know, where you get like the true crime and
and all of that kind of really awful stuff, you know,
and then you get paranormal stuff that's stuck in there.
And I think it's because where in both cases we're

(47:33):
dealing with kind of things that are sort of unknown,
that are mysterious. You know, we know about murders, but
you know, even when we find out why people get murdered,
a lot of times, especially if you're dealing with like,
you know, the really worst of the worst kind of people,

(47:54):
you know, they can tell you why they do things,
but it doesn't make any sense to us. You know,
it's it's whatever their reasons are, but there's something about
it that there's something about it that's creepy, you know,
and so it's there's a creep factor and then there's
just also the sense that while there's this, you know,

(48:14):
whatever Goat is going on with people and whatever is
going on with the world is like a lot bigger
than most than the kind of realm in which most
of us live. So you mean, to me, that's kind
of where the fear comes from. Although I will say
that when I do investigations, I do pay attention to
how I'm feeling, you know, like how my body is feeling,

(48:37):
how my emotions are feeling, because especially if you're in
certain places where there are certain electromagnetic disturbances or things
like that, like in a haunting kind of I've investigated,
like haunted places, you can there are there are certain
electromagnetic things that if you come in contact with them,

(48:58):
or certain environments that have become come in contact with him,
you can get that kind of weird, creepy feeling. You know.
Some of it I think is just physical or physiological,
and you just sort of have to work with that,
deal with that. I mean, John Keel does talk about that,
you know, I mean, he got himself into some situations
that freaked him out, So I figure if he could

(49:21):
be freaked out, it's perfectly fine for me. To be.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
You know, John Kiel was certainly a character. I first
met him back in the late sixties. I was working
with Jim Moseley at Saucer News in New York and
he was supposedly doing an article for Playboy magazine. Comes
on over and visits and we talk with him, and
Jim talked with him further personally. The article was never written,

(49:46):
but we'll get into that in the moment. We've got
professor Wham, Gene Steinberg, who is not a professor, and
then we have Tim Schwartz. You're in the very gust
I'm repeating.

Speaker 6 (49:57):
We're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
I'm Kevin Randall.

Speaker 10 (50:08):
You're listening to the Para Cast, the gold standard of
paranormal radio.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Speaking of professors, this goes back to my childhood a teenager,
and the Maleman would look at me and say, ya,
gotta be a professor someday, And I thought to myself
thirty years later, Yeah, professor of ignorance, Professor Wam, go on, please, you.

Speaker 5 (50:38):
Were talking about John Keel and the article that.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Was Rah, Yes, let's talk about John Keele. John kell
is somebody I first met there. He wrote for a
magazine that I edited from the late sixties through the
mid seventies. I visited him in New York City at
his apartment when I was in this city. I was
living in pennsylv at the time. I was in the

(51:01):
city with nothing to do, and I knew his phone.
Nobody called him up and said, Hey, what's up. He said,
come on over. We'll have some coffee or something. And
that's about as strong a drink as i'd have, you know,
diet pepsi er, diet coke and coffee and orange juice.
Talk for like six or seven hours, then I drove home.
Keel also was part of a New York forty in society.

(51:24):
They were in Midtown, Manhattan, and it was right up
next door to where Tim Beckley lived between Fifth and
Madison at East thirtieth Street, and so I talked with
him quite a bit then. And then we started the
Para cast in two thousand and six, and my first
co host, David Biedni, and I were looking for guests

(51:46):
and Tim Beckley was helping us with the show with
some co production, and David asked Tim for John Keele's number.
This is like a year or two before he died,
and so David calls up and he says, would you
like to come on the show? And Heal's response, how
did you get this number?

Speaker 5 (52:06):
And he cants up, Yeah, he was a character. He
certainly was. I only briefly spoke to him once once,
like very briefly. He and I cross paths at some
event that was going on in New York City. This

(52:27):
was in the nineties. I can't even really remember exactly
what it was because I was traveling so much then,
and I just recognized him, you know. I saw him
go walking across a lobby and I just recognized him,
and I ran over to him, and I just he
was nice enough to me at the time. I just
introduced myself and we had a brief conversation and then

(52:50):
went on. So that's that's the only contact I've had
with him personally. But I've read virtually everything he wrote.
He's written, even when I didn't agree with it. Mothman
prophecies were so important to me at a particular point
in my life that I had to tell him that.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
So he had to feel some kind of ego boosts
because Richard Deere played a composite character based on him
in the movie version of my fan prophecy, right right.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
Well, I think he liked I think he liked gear.
So from what I understand, I mean, you know, I
know I know a couple of other people who knew him,
you know, like I've talked to Brent Rains who knew him,
and a few other people, and people who've been involved
with the UH I guess the Mothman festival that goes on,

(53:46):
you know, every year. So they always have little tidbits
about him. But he'll always be He'll always be one
of my favorites. It just be for no other reason,
his incredibly irascible person.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
You know.

Speaker 5 (54:03):
If he could stand to admit that he got scared sometimes,
then I can admit that I've been scared.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
So he had a great sense of humor. Instead of
calling it uphology for the UFO field, he called you foolagey.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
You foology. Wasn't he another person who smoked a lot?
When we were talking about smoking earlier.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
I don't connect it with smoking that much. I didn't
because of the era in which I grew up pay
attention to people who smoked a lot. I didn't, except
for certain funny cigarettes. But you know, Jim Moseley smoked
a lot of different kinds of cigarettes, because nowadays you
can get the funny cigarette and a little pill, so

(54:50):
you don't even have to have a funny cigarette anymore.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
Right, Well, and you can also do the whole vaping thing,
which I guess some people still do.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
But smoked a pipe for a while.

Speaker 5 (55:01):
And oh, that's right, he did smoke a pipe. I've
seen photos of him with the pipe, that's right.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
But I think that I think that he had given
that up through at least the final portions of his
life when I was when I was visiting Tim Beckley
one time there in Manhattan, we had lunch with Keel
and he wasn't he didn't smoke then, and we had

(55:32):
we had a great We had a great lunch too,
And that afterwards Begley said to me, Wow, he was
in a good mood today.

Speaker 5 (55:41):
Yeah, that's that's what my friends have told me. The
people that knew him is that is that, you know,
he had his moods. He would he'd get impatient with
people sometimes, but he was an original you know, I know, we.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Go ahead, go ahead, Tim, just pick up well no, no, okay,
finish your sentence, because I was going to go off
on a different track.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
There, Okay, Well, another thing about Keel less complimentary. We
did a memorial episode with John Keel's friends sometime after
he died on the Power Cast, and a few people
mentioned this, and I think Jerome Clark was one of them,
that Kiel had lots of good ideas, did a lot

(56:26):
of good work, but wasn't always the most rigorous researcher.

Speaker 5 (56:35):
He always a journalist, so you know, he did a
certain type of research, and I remember I can't remember
whether that was this was in Mothman Prophecies or in
another one of his writings, but I remember distinctly that

(56:55):
one of the things he talked about was and of
course he wasn't set up to do it himself, but
he talked about how he subscribed or was able to
procure all of these you know, these news clipping services,
and he would take these different you know, these accounts

(57:17):
from all over the world, and he'd spread them all
over his apartment and sort of group them by dates,
like when they would occur, when the different sightings would occur.
And he began to notice that there were these really
interesting patterns, you know, like you'd have a certain kind
of sighting in Arizona that would look a certain way,

(57:38):
and then maybe later that day there would be something
very similar that would be being seen, like in the
northeast or in Europe or something. And he talked about
he didn't call it this, but basically if there was
some kind of a database that could be put together.
So because he believed that that such a catalog, we'd

(58:01):
call it a database now, but such a catalog would
potentially reveal larger patterns, you know, kind of I guess
we'd call the meta patterns, and that that's what he
that's the kind of work he thought we should do,
because I think he believed that if you could chart
some of those patterns, you might be able to start

(58:23):
thinking about in larger terms, you know, like like we
model weather now, because we do stuff like that, you know,
we have you know, predictive AI that's able to come
up with weather models and so that we can predict
the weather a lot better, or even climate variations. And

(58:45):
I think that that's the kind of thing he would
have liked to have envisioned, but there was no way
he was going to do that himself, you know, So.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
I mean, that's that's that's something that you know, while
I'm not a big fan of AI, that is something
that I think AI could be really excellent at if
it had the proper kind of input predictive AI.

Speaker 5 (59:11):
Absolutely, I think it.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Right, Yeah, I mean trying to find trying to discover
these patterns with a paranormal activity includes UFO, scryptis all
the above, and see if it can see things that
we can't that we're.

Speaker 5 (59:29):
Not right well. And in fact, that idea kind of
inspired me when I was when I was putting together
the timelines for the book that I wrote about the
Hudson Valley, Mysterious Beauty.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
I'll tell you what. We'll explore that in the book
Mysterious Beauty about the Hudson Valley with Wham, Jean, Tim,
you're in the protocost.

Speaker 10 (01:00:02):
This is me, the person you are listening to cast
the gold standard of paranormal radio exactly, including mind Land.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Having raised the issue, Professor Wham, what about the issues
of paranormal encounters in the Hudson Valley. I didn't live
super far from there because I lived in Brooklyn, New York.
I worked in Manhattan, in fact, right near where Tim
Beckley has office, like two doors away. For many many

(01:00:37):
years and then lived in New Jersey. So I was
exposed at a distance the area. So what's going on there?

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
Well, a little bit of everything happens in the Hudson Valley.
And I mean most people are aware or when they
think of the Hudson Valley and the paranormal, they do
think of the you know, the the UFO flap that
occurred in the mid nineteen eighties, you know, from about
eighty four to about eighty eight, you know, the Westchester

(01:01:10):
Wing I think they called it, And so they think
about that, you know that that what Heinich wrote that
book with Philip im Broglio or whatever. That guy's name
was called Night Siege, And so that's what most people
think about Phil M.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Brogno.

Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
Yes, yes, I can never remember how to spell his name.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
You won't when I tell you the fact that even
though this was a well reviewed book. Of course, doctor
Heinich was involved in Bob Pratt, Phil M. Brogno was
a twenty four character phony in one.

Speaker 5 (01:01:42):
Yes, I know he was. That's That's probably why I
don't bother to try to figure out how to pronounce
his name. But anyway, no, I know, I mean he
and there are problems with the book, obviously, but it
was a thing. So that's what most people know about
or they think about Whitley Striber stuff, you know, because
he had his visitor experiences that he reported they were

(01:02:07):
they're about thirty five miles from where I live, almost
due west, so they're kind of like a Hudson Valley
experience too. But the Hudson Valley has a has a
long tradition, even if the people who live here kind
of have this this sense, especially in rural areas, that

(01:02:30):
the whole area is kind of haunted in a way,
and it's it's actually what I found when I moved here.
It's actually part of the culture. It's it's so common
here for people to see lights in the sky in
certain lights in certain areas, and for people to see

(01:02:53):
bigfoot in certain areas. And then there's the whole Pine
Bush thing that happened that if you're remember Ellen Crystal,
remember her book her book is at that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Yeah, I met Ellen Crystal at a Star Trek convention
in the early seventies.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
Right right.

Speaker 9 (01:03:12):
Well, her book that she wrote about it about Pine
Bush is kind of nuts, but I mean, I think
it's kind of nuts, but the phenomenon that she's describing
was real.

Speaker 5 (01:03:26):
Even though Ellen Crystal's approach and description of the Pine
Bush Ufo phenomena I'll say phenomena because there's more than
one thing about it is bizarre, I mean, weird and
kind of over the top. The fact is that there

(01:03:48):
is a real thing there, and there was at the
time in the nineteen nineties, and she was basically sort
of an outsider who swept in and tried to take
control of the investigative processes there. There was already some
stuff going on there. People were already on their own

(01:04:08):
kind of investigating and chronicling things and having experiences and
recording them, and she had her own ideas about what
all that should be, and so she kind of swept
in and tried to make it, especially in what was
her book, The Silent Invasion or something like that, tried

(01:04:29):
to make it all about her and what she was doing.
But there was actually a real thing that was happening
there and still is stuff that happens there. And so
in my book Misterious Beauty, I spend a little bit
of time on that. I spend the good part of
a chapter and a half interviewing people that were actually

(01:04:53):
present with Ellen and before her, you know, that were
having their own exc experiences there and uh and chronicling
sort of what's happening there. Now it's it's it's at
a much lower level than it used to be. But
during the nineties it was hopping over there. So you know,

(01:05:17):
regardless of what you think about Ellen's book, there there
there's a kernel of truth in what she's talking about.
But but her her desire to see the phenomenon in
phenomena in a certain way obscures some of the complexities
of it. It's very much it's a haunted area. Is

(01:05:40):
it's a better That's a better way of describing it.
And so what I do in my book is I
kind of go through the layers of it. I go,
I go through the history of the Hudson Valley in
this area, in particular, I focus on the Mid Hudson,
although I do touch on the Lower Hudson up up
to Albany, and I go through, I go, I go

(01:06:01):
back to the geography, you know, how how the land
was shaped with water and and and the ice ages,
and and then go into the indigenous people and what
they experienced here, because there's a there's a deep history
of the earliest people that lived here that some of
them that still live here having a variety of experiences too,

(01:06:24):
and then coming into the settlement period and up to
the present, and all kinds of things are seen here.
There are I mean, the gym that I go to,
the guy that I told you about, you know, my trainer,
the gym is haunted. And and not just because he's there,
but everybody who lives in that building or works in
that building has had an experience of some type. Just

(01:06:49):
down this down the road from where I live, maybe
about four miles, there's a there's a lake that's called
Sturgeon Pool, and people see spirit lights there all the time,
like all the time, you know, these interesting lights that
come out of the water and are usually yellowish or orange,
and then they play and they're not insects, and they

(01:07:10):
play and they shoot around and they merge and come apart.
And Bigfoot is seen around in various places. But what
I found was being inspired by John Keel, I was
trying to put a timeline of different different events, UFO events,

(01:07:31):
cryptid events in particular, and then some other kinds of
things that people had seen or experienced and I was
trying to I wanted to create sort of a timeline
from the seventies up to like maybe twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.
And what I found was that there were when you
actually did stuff like that something like that, you found

(01:07:51):
that there were some interesting patterns. So that when all
the pine bush stuff was going on in the nineteen nineties,
at the very same time were bigfoot sidings that were
happening up to the north close to Albany, around Troy
and a town that's called Kinderhook. And they were happening

(01:08:11):
at the same time.

Speaker 6 (01:08:13):
But.

Speaker 5 (01:08:15):
In completely different parts of the valley. And of course,
so nobody connects them, and then they just sort of move.
It just sort of moves around. I don't know what
it means. It's just interesting. And so what's happened is
that people who are studying this sort of broadly in
the valley, which aren't you know, a lot of people,

(01:08:37):
I mean, most people who do ghosts just do ghosts,
or people who do UFOs mostly just do UFOs. But
people that like me, that do a little bit of
all of it, they realize that this whole area is
interesting and has the potential of being I guess what

(01:08:58):
Keel would call a window area.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
Ah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Yes, But by the way, before we split for our
next segment, I'm going to ask one question. We've heard
to paranormal events at the gym where you train at,
and what I'd like you to do in the next
segment is to tell us about that particular event, because
that's interesting. Imagine trying to, you know, do some weightlifting
and some kind of little white thing scurries past you

(01:09:24):
and you say, Casper, get the heck out of here. No, seriously,
I'm living in a place now where the rental office
is supposedly haunted. I'm not going to tell you where
it is, folks. I don't want anyone to get there.
But that's what the lease manager and the assistant lease
manager told me. So maybe it was just a way

(01:09:44):
to knowing what I did for a living to get
me to rent the place. Who knows, or maybe I'll
be attacked by something. We've got Professor Wham and Jeane
and Tim.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
You're in the pedicast.

Speaker 6 (01:09:57):
I'm opeting. We're not in Kansas anymore. Hi, my name
is Richard Dolan. You're listening to the parac cast.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Those voices. Tim comes up with to end our segments.
I think he's possessed by something, maybe too much tea.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
Nothing but Earl Gray there, Jeane.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Well semi regards to Earl never to stand the problem.
The reason they called Earl Gray. It's a guy named
Earl whose hair turned gray. No, that is not true.
Professor Wham tell us about the sightings or sighting at
the gym.

Speaker 5 (01:10:48):
Okay, Well, there are a lot of different things that
have happened at the gym. I've only personally experienced a
couple things. They're probably kind of low level. But the
experiences apparently go back a number of years even before
the guy, you know, my trainer who has the gym there,
even and I'm not going to tell people where it

(01:11:08):
is because i don't want it to ruin his business
or you know, do anything like that. But when he
moved in to that place, he was told kind of
parenthetically by the person who owned the building that he
might experience certain things. He didn't really think anything of

(01:11:28):
it at the time, That's what he told me. But
apparently the individual and it's believed that the main focus
of the occurrences are around the guy who built the building.
The person who built the building was an individual who

(01:11:50):
helped to build the village of port Ewan. Basically, like
half the business buildings that are in the village he
either owned or co owned or built. And the particular
building that the gym is in was apparently his favorite
building because it had apartments up on top and he
lived in one of them, so he sort of was

(01:12:12):
sort of Lord, God, king, you know, of that building.
And what he would do, apparently during his life, is
that he would he would walk around and he would
peer into the businesses and just to kind of check
to see what was going on. And he always smoked
a cigar. And he lived in this one particular apartment.

(01:12:33):
And what people mostly report is that people who live
in that apartment, they will, for example, in the middle
of winter, they will leave and have and everything will
be closed because it's cold, and they'll come back and
the window will be open and it will and it
will smell like cigar smoke, because that's what he used

(01:12:53):
to do in the evening, was open the window and
smoke his cigar by the window. And I guess that's
a normal thing in that apartment that occurs. What I've
experienced there is footsteps where you should not footsteps where
you should not be hearing them. Like I've had the
experience where you'll have like a bunch of people together

(01:13:17):
in the upstairs. There's like an upstairs room where we
work out. My trainer kind of can build he builds
like a circuit training thing, and you'll have like six
people up there. I've had this experience. Six people up
there and we're all like getting ready to work out,
We're all getting ready to do stuff, and then all

(01:13:37):
of a sudden, we'll hear all of us. We'll hear
footsteps go through the room, right through us, from one
side of the room to the other, like someone just
walked across, and we'll just all be sitting there going,
oh my, oh my, you know, and it got so bad.

(01:13:58):
It's gotten so bad. It's been calm lately, but it
got so bad at one point a couple of years
ago that he put mobile you know cameras up, you know,
CCTV cameras up in every room basically to see if
he could capture stuff. And he did capture things. He

(01:14:19):
captured orbs going. There's one of my favorite ones is
an orb that obviously it appears out of the ceiling
right by the indoor stairs and it comes towards the
camera and then right as it gets to the camera,

(01:14:40):
and it's a very distinct orb and this is when
everything's closed, so it's it's a very distinct orbit comes
and it floats up and as soon as it gets
to the camera, it just shoots straight up into the air.
A bunch of things like that, things being poultrygeist. Things

(01:15:00):
you know, you'll see, you'll hear, you'll you'll the camera
will capture emotion, but you don't see anything, and then
all of a sudden something will like fly off a
shelf and things like that. I guess my trainer has
had a couple of really frightening experiences. He had a
really frightening experience with a shadow figure at one point

(01:15:22):
when he first moved in there. When he first moved
in there, or moved his business in there, he didn't
have an apartment yet in the in the vicinity, and
so he was sleeping in his business and he had
a couple of encounters with something that woke him up
in the middle of the night and scared him. In fact,

(01:15:43):
the second time he said, and you have to understand,
bye bye bye. Trader is a big guy. He's like
a big muscly guy, you know, he's a big burly guy,
and he scared him so much, he said that he
didn't even bother putting his shoes on. He just like
picked up his shoes and just ran out the front
door and just just spent the rest of the night

(01:16:05):
in his car. And there was a and I do
talk about in Mysterious Beauty, a really odd incident that
happened in broad daylight where he was working out with
a customer in the downstairs workout area, and all of
a sudden, his customer said, what is that? And he

(01:16:26):
looked and there was like this weird face that was
forming in the glass of the of the back door,
and he actually was able to get like two or
three pictures of it with his cell phone, and I
reproduced at least one or two of those pictures in

(01:16:47):
the book. And it's pretty weird because it wasn't missed.
I mean, it just it's like literally in the glass.
And then the customer saw it and kind of freaked
out and left, he said, the customer never came back.
And then as soon as it was done, you know,

(01:17:09):
as soon as it started just fading away and he
looked at the glass and it wasn't dust, and it
wasn't like something that wasn't like moisture in between pains
or anything like that. The image just disappeared and went away.
And so there's just been a variety of things like that,
and then I guess it's been like about I don't know,

(01:17:34):
maybe it was right before the pandemic. Maybe it was
right before the pandemic, like in twenty nineteen Christmas or
New Year's maybe of twenty twenty. There was a guy
who lived in the apartment that was right that. There's
an apartment that is right that's upstairs, that's right across
the hall, this little tiny hall from where the large

(01:17:58):
upstairs workout room is. And he died there in the apartment.
He was apparently not a very nice person, and he
died and wasn't found for several days. And so for
a long time there were all kinds of really weird

(01:18:19):
things that were happening, even during the pandemic when nobody
was there at all, you know, when they had to
close the gym because of the shutdown, But he had
still had his cameras up and he recorded a number
of really strange like shadow figures moving in and out
of the yoga room into the main workout room. He's

(01:18:43):
got like a collection of these videos. So now somebody
is somebody knew, is living in that apartment now, and
apparently we don't know if they've experienced anything, but apparently
those kinds of really intense visitations that he connected to

(01:19:05):
that guy dying have sort of diminished. But yeah, the
only other thing that I experienced I experienced disembodied voices.
At one point when I was doing boxing on my
own with a teacher, a different teacher upstairs, and I
would come in. This is when I was working a
different job than I do now, and I would come

(01:19:26):
in at like six thirty in the morning and we'd
do stuff, you know, i'd work out then. And I
remember coming in really early once and being upstairs and
there there was the stereo equipment that wasn't hooked up
to anything because my trainer had just brought speakers up.
They were going to, you know, hook it up so
that we could listen to you know, Spotify or something

(01:19:46):
while we were up there.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Let's continue with Jean Chris and wham, you're in.

Speaker 4 (01:19:52):
The Perra cast.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Hi, this is Tracy Tome screenwrite a producer.

Speaker 6 (01:20:09):
You're listening to para cast, the gold standard of paranormal radio.

Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
Just imagine Professor wham. If before the speakers are hooked up,
it starts playing.

Speaker 5 (01:20:23):
It doesn't start playing. What happens is that I'm up there,
and you know, I can't really explain it. I mean,
the lights are on and everything, and people are downstairs,
but I kind of got this creepy feeling. I can't
really explain it. You know, it was just, you know,
that sort of that cold kind of feeling. And I thought,

(01:20:44):
I just thought in my mind, I just I just
in my mind, I said to myself, well, I wonder
if anything's been going on, I need to talk to
I need to talk trainer, you know, about if anything
has happened lately. And as soon as I thought that, too,
voices came out of the speaker that was not attached

(01:21:04):
to anything, and it was a man's voice and a
woman's voice kind of in the background. And I didn't
understand what the woman said. I just could hear her
in the background talking kind of like in a monotone.
But the man's voice very clearly, very clearly, said, oh,
we're here. Just like that, and I had just thought

(01:21:27):
that I had not said that, So I just stood
up and I said, okay, thank you. And I said that, okay,
thank you, and then went downstairs and waited for my teacher.
So it's like, even though I know about this stuff,
you know, it's still unnerving when it happens. It's just unnerving.

(01:21:47):
It's like when people when people say, oh, I want
to experience these things, I'm like, I don't know if
you do really really, you know, so be braver than me,
because I didn't really expect anything to happen, you know,
I was I just I thought that in my brain,
and then I heard a voice that I haven't experienced

(01:22:11):
some of the things that some other people have experienced there.
There was a trainer who was working there for a while,
and I really liked her, and I wish she was
still there, and she didn't leave because of these experiences.
She left because she got a different job somewhere else.
But she had several experiences where she would like be

(01:22:32):
there by herself and you know, kind of cleaning up
after a class, and she'd go down the stairs and
she could feel something touching her, you know, like kind
of inappropriately you know, kind of poking her and stuff,
and she also heard things she didn't like being there
by herself because of that, especially at night. So it's

(01:22:53):
not just me, you know, It's like a lot of
people have had and we've had group experiences. Like I said,
you know, we're all together in the workout room and
then we all hear the footsteps like literally go in
front of us or almost kind of go through us,
or all of a sudden, will all smell cigarette smoke
and nobody smokes there. Smoking is forbidden in that building.

(01:23:17):
It's very strange, you know. But yeah, haunted gym.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
It's interesting how some places are you know, like the
haunted Gym just really I mean, the paranormal activity just
is just flowing out the windows, so to speak, while
other places that could be even older and had even

(01:23:43):
more deaths, nothing ever happens. I mean, does it make
you wonder why some places seem to be more prone
to this kind of activity?

Speaker 8 (01:23:55):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:23:56):
Yeah, obviously, I mean yeah, I mean, and I don't know,
I mean there are all kinds of theories about that,
you know, and and in my book, I do talk
about some of those theories. You know, how you know,
at least in terms of certain maybe certain locations might
be associated with with certain times with a lot of water,

(01:24:17):
or or certain kinds of geomagnetic abnormalities. But in some cases,
I just really don't know. It's just hard to tell.
I mean, I think in the case of this particular building,
I think that part of what might you know, if
we're going to be speculative, part of what might trigger
it is that is what is the personality of the

(01:24:37):
guy who's considered to be at the core of it,
you know, on some level, you know what some what
a parapsychologist, you know, like Scott Rogo would say, is
that you know, there's somebody, there's somebody there that had
a really intense attachment to that building for some reason,
and there's some part of him that never left and
because of that, that's sort of that sort of keeps

(01:24:58):
a portal open for other things to potentially happen. You know.
That's just that's one explanation. I mean, Paul Eno would say, well,
you know, there are some places that where various realities
kind of mix and merge together, and so sometimes what
you're experiencing could be a reflection of the past or

(01:25:22):
or maybe there's a there are places where dimensions, if
you want to put it that way, sort of overlap.
You know, I don't really know. I mean, one of
the things that my gym trainer has told me is
that is that he, you know, he has some of
his family works in construction, and he was telling me

(01:25:44):
about a house that is a relatively new house, you know,
it's not even a decade old, that he helped his
one of his brother in law I think it was
a brother in law and an uncle clean out because
there had been a the house had been built and
then that family had moved in, and they'd moved in,

(01:26:05):
they've moved out fairly rapidly and had left a bunch
of their stuff there and they and there was some
damage to the house, and so they had been hired
to help clean the house out and sort of repair it,
you know. And it's a new house. I mean, it's
not like I don't know if it's sitting on land
that's particularly haunted or something, but the house itself is
relatively new. And this house apparently is so haunted or

(01:26:30):
has so much at least negative energy in it. He
said that he could hardly stand in it. It was
like his brother in law like called him to come help,
because every time he'd go in the living room, things
would fling themselves at him from other parts of the house,
like really intense poultry gized stuff, and it really scared

(01:26:52):
him because he didn't believe in any of this stuff
until it started happening to him. And so, you know,
my friend, my trainer went to go in help him,
and they tried to clean some of it out, and
the more they tried to clean out, the worse it got,
and they just left. They didn't complete their contract. They
just pulled out of the contract. And they'd been contracted

(01:27:12):
to do this work and clean this house, and they said,
we're not going back there. And this was a new house.
This was not you know, it was not like an
ancient old house that had had a lot of different
people in it or anything like that. He didn't do
any investigation to find out, you know, like if it
had been built on anything, or you know, if something

(01:27:33):
had been there before. But you know, speaking to Tim's point,
I have no idea exactly why certain things happened. I
think we have a lot of theories. There are some patterns,
but I'm not entirely sure. You know what makes a
place a haunted place?

Speaker 8 (01:27:52):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
Yeah, we had We've had a guest on the show
a couple of times now who wrote a book about
his experiences in and the town of Baffel in Washington,
and him and his girlfriend moved into this this place
that was relatively new. I think there had only been

(01:28:13):
one other family that had lived there before they, and
it was it's I mean, the books called the baffle
Hell House. The the experiences were so bad and he
afterwards was left with the impression that this was something
that may be associated with the land, you know some
you know, like maybe you know Native you know, Native Americans,

(01:28:36):
because there had been I guess some massacres that had
taken place in that area in the past. But as
for the house itself, it was new enough that you
wouldn't expect, and I think that surprises a lot of people.

Speaker 5 (01:28:51):
Right, Yeah, I mean, I mean one of the things
that I explore is a possibility when I you know,
when I wrote the book, is that when I was
looking at pine the Pine Bush area, which I've which
I mentioned earlier, that area, that whole area was was
a really important turning point in a series of conflicts

(01:29:17):
here in the Hudson Valley that are called the the
APIs Wars and the Ais Wars. That were two main
APIs wars, and they were wars that were fought between
the indigenous Mounsie here and the Dutch. And so they
they were very early, you know, in seventeenth and eighteenth century. Yeah,

(01:29:40):
seventeenth and eighteenth century. And so the in the in
the set in the in the First APIs War, the
Mounsey actually won.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
We've got Wham, Jean, Tim, you're in.

Speaker 6 (01:29:54):
Pedagost repeating, We're not in Kansas anymore.

Speaker 8 (01:30:03):
This is Jerome Clark, author of the ufor encycloped and
other books.

Speaker 4 (01:30:08):
You're listening to the paracast.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
We've got professor Wham rejoining us here as we continue
with her discussion with Jean and Tim. Go ahead, please, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:30:23):
So I was talking about the two Ahopis Wars and
between the Munsie indigenous people that lived in the mid
Hudson Valley and the Dutch. So these are very early,
you know, conflicts, and in the First Aspis War, the
Mounsie actually won. They were able to successfully drive out
and contain most of the Dutch from what is now

(01:30:45):
Kingston the Kingston area, which is close to where I live.
But then the Second APIs War, the Dutch came back
and the bulk of that conflict took place further south
and east of where I live, in what is now
the pine Bush Township, and it's in Orange County and

(01:31:08):
Sullivan County. The area where pine Bush, where a lot
of these haunting experiences have occurred, are very close to
where there were several massacre sites. The Dutch decided when
they wanted to reconquer that area because especially the area
around pine Bush is prime farmland. I mean it was

(01:31:32):
farmed by the indigenous people. It was prime farmland for them,
and obviously you want to get a hold of as
much good farmland as you can. And there were a
number of Indigenous towns, villages, palisaded villages. They lived in
palisaded villages or villages that had large or tall palisade

(01:31:55):
wooden walls around them. And the Dutch decided to well,
to violate all the rules of engagement that they and
the Munsie had worked out and just decided to slaughter everyone.
That hadn't happened the first time. In the first War.
There were some rules of engagement and the Munsie did

(01:32:16):
not take the battle to civilians, but when the Dutch
came back in the Secondsopis War, the Dutch violated that
and basically wiped out a number of towns, killed everyone,
burned the towns to the ground. And so there are
a number of places in that area that you know,

(01:32:36):
sort of bear that memory, if you will, and even
the people who live there kind of know that, you know,
they they're sort of aware of that history. I've talked
to locals, some of whom their families literally date back
to those periods. They actually have stories in their families
of their ancestors and these conflicts, which if you think

(01:32:59):
about that, that's extraordinary. That's like three or four hundred years,
you know, and they do bear a lot of times
a kind of guilt about it, you know, a kind
of or sadness, I guess more is probably a better
way of looking at it. And so, you know, in
the book, I talk about that about how a lot

(01:33:19):
of the places that where you have a lot of
different activity, you know, like UFOs and spirit lights and hauntings,
there does seem to be kind of some correlation between
that and certain kinds of conflicts between you know, settlers
and indigenous people or places that were places where indigenous

(01:33:43):
people had ceremony, ceremonial sites. There are all kinds of
ceremonial sites around here that archaeologists have identified that have
not been destroyed by settlement, especially in the Woodstock area
and Overlook Mountain. There's there are a number of different
ceremonial sites that are associated with spirit lights and other

(01:34:07):
things like that, cryptids, stuff like that. So, you know,
it's interesting. Correlation is not causation. It doesn't really tell
us why, but there's evidence for reasons why places might
be haunted. How's that? And of course you have to remember,
you know, this is the place that gave us, you know,

(01:34:28):
Riff van Winkle and the legend of Sleepy Hollow, you know,
and all those stories, those good old Washington Irving stories.

Speaker 3 (01:34:36):
So one of the aspects of your book that I
find fascinating, because this is something that I have been
interested in for a long time, was the early nineteenth
century second grade awakening with religious revival. Is that's where

(01:35:02):
spiritualism arose as.

Speaker 4 (01:35:05):
Well as the.

Speaker 3 (01:35:08):
Oh Andrew Davis Jackson.

Speaker 5 (01:35:12):
Oh yeah, Andrew Jackson, Davis.

Speaker 3 (01:35:14):
Yes, yes, yes, Andrew Jackson, Yeah, I got the names right,
just the order was wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:35:27):
What about him?

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
Well, but you know that that once again though, I mean,
you know, we we have these these interesting events taking
place in this area. Yeah and again I mean, you know,
the birthpace of u spiritualism, you know, was there and
all taking place within a rather concentrated, uh time period.

Speaker 5 (01:35:56):
Oh yeah, I mean New York. I mean from the
Hudson You know, if you go back to like the
late eighteenth century, early nineteenth century, the second grade Awakening
up to like the Millerites, I mean, the Mormons started upstate.
You know, we don't think about the Mormons starting upstate,
but that's where Joseph Smith was. He was upstate whole

(01:36:16):
they called the whole northern tier of New York, coming
down into the Hudson Valley, they called that the burned
Over District because there were so many religious revivals of
various kinds. You know how in the sixties we tended
to think of southern California as being, you know, like
kind of the land all the weirdos right where all

(01:36:38):
those strange religions were. Well, that's what New York was,
you know, especially upstate New York and throughout the late
seventeenth and to the eighteenth, eighteenth into the nineteenth century,
and New York was the place where you know, spiritualisms.
You know, lily Dale still exists as a town, uh,

(01:37:01):
one of the few spiritualist communities, completely spiritualist communities in
the country. The Mormons started up there, the Oneida community
started up there. There was there was this hole in
the late nineteenth century, this whole commune thing that started. So, yeah,
it's New York was. New York was the land of

(01:37:24):
weird for a long time. It was. It was the
land of weird. And and you know, it's still is
a place where there are a lot of communities that
you know, we think of New York City, we think
of the larger cities, but there are still a lot
of places in New York that are very rule, especially

(01:37:48):
in up towards the Adirondacks on the western and in
the western tier of the state, the western side of
the state. There's a whole part of Ulster County the
that I live, and there's a whole part of Ulster
County in the northwest which is so remote because it's
part it's enclosed within the Greater Catskill Mountain. State park

(01:38:13):
that there's actually no roads to it. You have to
like leave the county and go around in order to
enter that part of the county. That's how remote it is.
But there are towns, there, villages there, There are people
that live in these areas. So there are a lot

(01:38:33):
of small little enclaves of people who do various kinds
of religious and spiritual things. And there are actually still
little enclaves. I didn't know this until I moved here
and made my contacts, but there are small communities, enclaves
of indigenous families who never left. And in many cases

(01:38:58):
they would take on English sounding names or Dutch sounding names,
but if you actually do the research on the names,
you'll find those names never existed. They just sound like that.
And they tend to like the whole family will live communally,
and they will tend to only do certain they will

(01:39:20):
tend to specialize in certain kinds of economic activities. So
for example, there's a family going up Highway nineteen towards
Kinderhook's a it's a loose association of Mahican and Aesopus
indigenous families and they do nothing but they do autocare.

(01:39:42):
They basically do auto work that's what they do.

Speaker 2 (01:39:45):
We'll discuss more of this in our final segment of
the main show with Wham, Gene and Tim.

Speaker 4 (01:39:51):
You're in the peric Cast.

Speaker 3 (01:40:05):
Hey, this is Marie D.

Speaker 5 (01:40:06):
Jones, the author of this book is from the Future,
and you are listening to the Para Cast, the gold
standard of paranormal radio. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
So this entire group Wham they do they fix your car.

Speaker 5 (01:40:25):
They fix your car. There's a whole set of garages
that they own that's going. I think it's between Hudson
and Kinderhook, and the family's been doing that for well
as long as there have been cars, and they probably
did other things before then. But it's a group of
Mahican and Aesopus families who've never left. So there's this

(01:40:46):
idea that all the indigenous people left, and a lot
of them did, and I'm not going to say that
most of them didn't. A lot of them did, but
some of them stayed and have been here the whole time, hiding.
They say, hide in plain sight. That's how they put it.
There's a lot of layers to this area, to the
Hudson Valley, and I think a lot of that, all

(01:41:08):
of that contributes to well the ambiance of the place obviously,
but it could contribute to the persistence of certain types
of phenomena as well. I mean, it's hard to know.
Since we don't know exactly what causes it, it's difficult
to say, you know, what could be a causal factor.

(01:41:29):
I'll just say it's an interesting place. It's probably the
most interesting place I've ever lived.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):
Is the so called Borsch Belt in that area.

Speaker 5 (01:41:37):
Yes, yes, it's not as the Borsh Belt is not
as pronounced as it was in the fifties and sixties,
but there are remnants of it, absolutely, and there are
still some communities. There are some ultra orthodox communities around
here that they have their own sort of onlaves, you know,

(01:42:00):
their own villages, their own settlements, if you will. Most
of the Borsh Belt that you're speaking of was up
in the Cats Skills, and most of those resorts, they
had resorts where they would you know, go and hang out.
And most of those resorts have actually either been sold
and become something else or have fallen into ruin. So

(01:42:23):
the heyday of that is no more. There's still some
if you go all the way up to the Adirondacks
north of Glen's falls. You'll find that there are still
some communities that are connected to that up that fall.

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):
Well, this was when I was a child, but that's.

Speaker 5 (01:42:39):
Kind of just beyond the Hudson Valley though.

Speaker 4 (01:42:43):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
As a child, we'd go up there, or i'd go
to summer camp. But now I don't drive in Mountainore.
I gave that up a few years ago, so nowadays,
if I were to want to do that, i'd say,
you drive. I'm not driving. I'll just sit there and
close my eyes, wake me up when it's over.

Speaker 5 (01:43:02):
Yes, those roads are quite windy up there. That I
will admit. I've driven to the Catskills several times.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
Well, therefore, the place I went to when I haunted
probably then, or maybe they were and they never.

Speaker 5 (01:43:19):
Well maybe they were and it just never manifested and
so didn't really matter. I mean, I notice you don't
notice it right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
Well, you see, part of it is I went to
these areas as a child, as a teenager and a
little bit older, mostly before I got beyond the UFO
phase and looked into a wider spectrum of paranormal events.
So it's possible here, very possible that all sorts of
weird things were going on right behind my back that

(01:43:52):
I never turned around.

Speaker 5 (01:43:54):
Right and maybe they didn't tell you about them scare you.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):
It might make you a tourist attraction, you know, you
have a place that's haunted, but you know it might
also scare people off, so you never know. By the way, listeners,
if you ever want to see how the cat skills were,
there was a TV comedy show, The Marvelous Missus masl
with the marvelous Rachel Brosnahan where they did a couple

(01:44:25):
of shows where they went to the cat skills and
she did her comedy. By the way, Rachel Brosnahan is
the new lower Slane. And next year Superman movie was
saying that, Yeah, well, you know, she looks the part.
You look at her and you say, I'm looking to
cast lower Slane. So here's a Christian girl who played

(01:44:45):
a Jewish girl and she's gonna be lower Slane. But
the guy who's going to play Superman is half Jewish.
And that's a big story. So where do you go
from here? In your research? You got the books? What's next?

Speaker 5 (01:44:59):
Well, you know that's sort of you know, the the
pandemic kind of put a lot of things on hold,
and so maybe for the for the last year or two,
I've actually been trying to figure out exactly what I'm
going what I'm doing. That's part of the reason why
I started doing the blog and the videos is because

(01:45:21):
one of the things that I have noticed in sort
of the new crop, if you will, of young paranormal people. Yeah,
you know, it's the sort of glut of new paranormal podcasters.
And one of the things that I and I've been
on many of their shows, and I've talked to a
number of them and know them relatively well. And one

(01:45:43):
of the things that I did notice is that, you know,
like most young people there, most young people especially who
have been raised on social media, a lot of them
are lacking in a certain kind of context. They're not
aware of some of the older work, the more foundational

(01:46:06):
work in parent in the paranormal UFO studies in particular,
but also in some other areas that have been done.
And so one of the things, like I said sort
of at the beginning, is I decided, well, you know,
having a periodic blog or podcast or blog or however
you want to put it, where I look at maybe

(01:46:27):
some old classic texts that are fascinating investigations where people
did do really foundational research work, and reintroducing some of
those texts to people so that they can get a
sense of how research might be done, what research has
been done, so that you know, in some cases you

(01:46:50):
don't need to reinvent the wheel. You know, you can
build on what other people have done. So that's sort
of what has been motivating at least some of the
offerings that I've been putting out there. I work full time,
you know, I work, if you count my commute, I
work five days a week, ten hours a day, So

(01:47:14):
I don't always have energy and time to do this
at quite the level that I would like, But you know,
it's it's it's helping me to feel useful, you know.
And I still do some in field investigations, like I'm
very good friends with the woman who founded the Big
for Researchers of the Hudson Valley here, and I go

(01:47:37):
out with her on field expeditions from time to time
when I have time to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
Professor Wham, Where can we find more information about you?

Speaker 5 (01:47:47):
The best place to find me is at my website
Professorwham dot com, and you can email me reach me
via Gmail at professor Wham numero one at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
To think there is a Professor Wham with no digit one.
You can find us on more places. Now there's a
Blue Sky Social that's getting a lot of people formerly
from X. We're known as the para Cast there and
on X and on threads and on Facebook, so you

(01:48:23):
can try any of those. Pick your poison Blue Sky Social.
I don't know yet, it's not big enough. We're going
to see where it leads us, so okay, folks. You
can also check out our streaming services called the Powercast
Plus at the Paracast on plus. It's where you get
this show without any ads whatever, plus the premium bonus

(01:48:46):
after the Paracast podcast uncensored for anything that at least
we can't be sued for, although that might give us
good publicity. You could get that and a lot of
exciting material if you just sign up for the Paracast
Plus at the Paracast dot Plus. Check the Powercast dot
plus for more details and quick, quick, quick, quick sign up.

(01:49:11):
Professor wamb thanks for joining us on the Paracast.

Speaker 5 (01:49:15):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:49:16):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (01:49:38):
The para Cast featuring Jeens Steinberg is a copyrighted presentation
of Making the Impossible Incorporated. Tune in next week for
a new adventure in the Paracast

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December 1, 2024 — Paranormal Expert Professor Wham

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}December 1, 2024 — Paranormal Expert Professor Wham