December 31, 2024 • 49 mins
It’s mimosa-o-clock as Lindz tells Amanda about the quackery of Linda Hazzard at ‘Starvation Heights’ and her ties to the Butterworth Building in Seattle, which is now the famous Kel’s Irish Pub! Take us to the basement!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The Paranormal Classroom.
(00:14):
Alright welcome back to the Paranormal Classroom where we explore the strange, the spooky,
and the shadowy corners of history.
Today Amanda we're going to dive into a story that combines true crime, my favorite, a dash
of quackery, and some haunting ties to Seattle's past.
(00:35):
Our big city native to the North.
I love it when you, this is your second one in a row that's like local.
I love the local stuff.
I think that's really fun because I think our more media audience might even be people
who we live near so that's something that they can connect to.
And also, I'm proud of where we live.
There's so much history and cool stuff going on around here that if you don't live here
(00:56):
locally, come visit.
Seattle area, Washington state, particularly western Washington, but even the eastern
side of the state, we have everything in Washington.
Everything.
But before we dive into all of that, especially the quackery bits, what's haunting you this
week?
Oh it is haunting me.
You know what, I'm just thinking while you were talking just now that how we should need
(01:17):
to do something on Bigfoot because Washington is famous for Bigfoot.
Oh yeah, that's always like backburner.
Like if you imagine a stove top with like four burners like the old school stuff, it's
back right.
Like it's always there and you know, simmering.
It's always simmering because he's my favorite.
I have a tattoo of Bigfoot.
Oh my gosh.
I love Bigfoot.
(01:37):
Yeah, we'll do something on Bigfoot too.
It just feels like where did it even begin?
However, I do have a contact who's connected to Bigfoot in major ways.
And he has said, he's told my husband, he's more directly connected to my husband.
So he's told him that he would do our podcast for us.
So when I feel like we're ready for that level of celebrity guest, we'll go with it.
(02:01):
It's exciting.
I think it'll be super fun.
So I think what's haunting me is today's the first time we are recording in your home,
not in a car, with the laptop.
It's much more official.
We're getting some recording stuff set up and we're looking at each other.
Yeah.
It's the first time that we're recording.
Not peripherally.
You're like eye to eye.
(02:22):
I'm staring into my soul.
It's like a dinner date.
And Amanda's having a diet coke and I'm having a mimosa in a can.
Yeah.
And it's dinner date.
Cheers.
At noon on Sunday.
Yes, salute.
Yeah, cheers to an upcoming new year.
We're recording just before Christmas.
(02:43):
It's what is today?
Sunday, December 22nd, right around the corner.
We just got out of school.
Yeah.
So, it's like the school year, this first term went so late.
December 20th was our last day.
I don't know about you, but as a parent, I don't know who keeps voting for this calendar
like this that gets us right up to Christmas.
And then we have through January 6th.
(03:04):
I don't need it through January.
What am I doing?
No.
What am I doing between the first and the sixth of January?
You need the time before Christmas to get ready for Christmas.
To prep.
If you celebrate, yeah.
And I hate rapping.
I hate rapping.
And now you have to wrap it all in two days.
Today.
I'm doing it this afternoon.
It's a nightmare.
But it's a blessing.
Oh my gosh, we got a puppy and that's a whole other story.
(03:25):
That's a podcast by itself.
That's a whole podcast on its own.
I didn't want the puppy and I was out of town and my husband was there.
Surprise.
Surprise puppy.
But that's like having the surprise baby.
Yeah, but it's really kind of, I don't know, it's not doing Christmas set any favorites
in our house because our house, which I usually really enjoy the decorations and just the festive
(03:46):
atmosphere.
Now there's tarps on the floor and there's pee on the floor and just today my husband's
like, we need to move the tree in the presence, you know, out of the house because the puppy's
getting, you know, somewhere where the puppy can't go.
You know, so.
You're going to be one of those people that hangs your tree from the ceiling.
We've seen these people.
I don't want to do that.
No, no, or puts the big giant fence around their tree so the dog can't get to it.
(04:11):
I don't want to do that.
I just, I didn't want a dog.
So every, I think everything that's like.
Every extra step is kind of bothering me.
So.
Understandably, I get it.
It's a weird stitch for sure.
I'm sorry.
I know you love it.
You love your, you love your home.
You love the festivities.
I like my home.
It's not, it's a mess right now.
(04:32):
It's a mess.
Hopefully it's just a chapter.
Yeah, I hope it's just this year.
Yes.
Yeah.
Hopefully, hopefully.
Besides all the wrapping that we, I should look at it differently that we get to do.
Like the fact that I have things to wrap is a blessing.
And I'm excited for that.
I don't really, I don't think there's anything really haunting me.
(04:53):
This is always a lovely time of year working up to, building up to winter break.
It was an awesome last few weeks of school, typically elementary school kids, perhaps
kids of all ages are losing their dang minds right before winter break.
But, and I know teachers are for sure.
Yeah.
Well, there's so much extra that we have to do.
I don't know that people know what all we do right before the holidays for all, for
(05:14):
all 30 kids, 25 kids, you know, right?
We give them an experience because we don't know what kind of experiences they get outside
of school.
So extra crafts and extra little celebrations and you are coordinating with parents to bring
in treats and snacks and goodies and there's music and there's spirit week dress ups and
all the things.
So it's wonderful except that it throws off all routine, which ironically that's also
(05:38):
what most of our kids need the most is that routine and knowing what's coming.
And so it creates this hubbub atmosphere that can increase anxiety for everybody as a specialist.
I don't have to absorb so much of that because they're in and out of my room anyway all week
long.
But so I just kind of get the fun, the fun bits of them, the excited bits, but not the
(06:00):
over sugared, crashed out, you know, versions of them.
I it was lovely.
It was a lovely week.
I actually posted to my personal Facebook page a picture of with no faces visible, of course,
but a couple of kindergartners and I said something to the effective at the end of Friday, I had
zero F's left to give.
(06:20):
So here are two kindergartners using a chomp saw and a 3D pen, which are two pieces of
equipment that I reserve for fourth and fifth graders with direct supervision.
And I was like, go for it.
What did they make?
Disaster.
I just used some tag board because it's much easier to cut than corrugated cardboard.
(06:41):
And that's what the chomp saw is designed to do, cut cardboard.
So I just said, here's some tag board, bra a shape and then cut it out.
And here's how basics of how it works.
And I sat right there at the table.
But I wasn't hand over handing it.
I wasn't like giving any specific instructions.
And then even with the 3D pen, I was like, it's hot, like hot glue.
(07:01):
Don't put it on your skin.
Don't touch the end of it.
Make the shape that you just cut out of the chomp saw and cover it in 3D filament.
Have fun.
And that was it.
They had a black.
My bad.
So I had other stations going around the room for them to experiment with and play with,
but they wanted to one at a time come check out those two things.
So of course they did.
All for them.
(07:22):
Yeah.
You know, when you tell them, oh, normally only the big kids get to do this, but happy
holidays.
The snoco is phoning it in.
They didn't know that.
They just thought they were getting to do something special.
Yeah.
So easy, easy for me.
So yeah, I don't really have anything haunting me right now.
I've not had any continued paranormal experience at my house.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
(07:42):
Nothing, nothing that I've noticed anyway.
Everything seems normal.
Nothing out of the ordinary.
Thank God.
I can only handle maybe one, what a quarter.
Like once every few months go ahead and hit me with something weird, but any more than
that, I'd be a nervous wreck.
Yeah.
Right.
So should we get into it?
Let's do it.
So have you ever done this is kind of random.
Have you ever done a, one of the ghost tours or ghost walks in Seattle?
(08:06):
Yeah.
I did the underground one.
Okay.
Okay.
So there's, I've done two.
I've done the underground one and I did another one above ground.
That was, I think the market was the, was the marketplace market was sort of the center
of it, but we walked all over that market downtown part of Seattle started in the market.
(08:27):
And I think it's actually called market ghost tours.
That sounds fun.
It's really fun.
The underground ghost tours really cool.
Cause you learn about the history of Seattle and you learn that Seattle was built on silt
and I don't really know what silt is, but I'm sandy, sandy.
Yeah.
So, so Seattle used to be a lot lower and they closer to the water, closer to the water
(08:50):
and then they built it up, but they still have like some of the building structures
that go down below what you think is the level ground.
So that's why it's called the underground tour because you're down under the sidewalks.
Seeing some of the original structure.
Yeah.
It's like original like storefronts and buildings and things that people would have walked by
when the ground was at a lower level.
(09:12):
In our earlier days where we were logging and minors would pass through on their way to
Alaska and so logging was a huge one.
Of course, fishing, shipping, things like that, massive industries, huge, what's the
word I'm looking for?
Epicenter of local indigenous trade.
(09:35):
So a lot of Pacific coastal tribal nations would come to the chief self area to conduct
business and meet up and have gatherings of all kinds.
So so much rich, rich history, a lot of history then of course of alcohol, sex, work, violence
tied to all those things where you have a transient population.
(09:56):
And then the whole thing caught on fire.
So there was Seattle fire and then we built sort of also on top of that.
So you can when you're under there, you can see like burned out timber from some of the
old.
So it's really cool, but also pretty spooky.
When I did the tour, I didn't encounter anything paranormal on the underground one, but on
the above ground one, we had a couple of interesting experiences.
(10:18):
And one of the things that we learned about are well, two of the places that we talked
about, I'm going to talk about today because they have a relationship.
And in this tour, we went to one of the places, which is currently a very well known pub nowadays,
but it used to be a mortuary.
Whoa, whoa.
(10:39):
Yes.
And that mortuary was tied to this woman that we're going to talk about today, who was quite
possibly one of, if not the first female serial killer in United States history.
What?
Yeah.
I wonder if anything you say will spark my memory.
I'm sure it will.
What you just said doesn't.
(10:59):
Like I'm like, there was a first female serial killer here in Washington.
Yeah.
Whoa.
When I say the words starvation heights, does that ring a bell?
No, it doesn't ring a bell at all.
It's going to be a new story.
Oh my gosh.
Right here.
Okay.
All right.
Today we are talking about Linda Hazard and the Butterworth.
What a great last name.
(11:20):
Right?
Two Z's.
I want my last name to be Mayhem.
Amanda Mayhem.
That sounds amazing.
It also sounds like a WWE character.
Bringing the Mayhem in the right, far right quarter or whatever they say.
Yeah.
And we'd be friends with, what's her name?
Hazard.
Yeah.
(11:41):
I was fantasized about being a WWE character and I was the wench with a winch.
And so like a, like a sparkly set of coveralls.
And then after I defeated my opponent, I would bring out a big like hook and chain and hook
it on and then winch him out of the ring.
Oh my gosh.
You'd like hook his skin.
I had a whole like a brother waist, like a big old hook.
(12:02):
Like that'd be my gimmick.
I overthought it.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
You never got to do that.
Maybe it's not too late.
It could also be a tag team duo and WWE.
Amanda Mayhem.
And the wench with a winch.
It doesn't have a real name.
Just an occupation.
(12:23):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So here we go.
This is going to be what I call segment one.
Okay.
The life and crime.
Why is it two parts?
It's two different stories that we're going to cross over.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the life and crimes of Linda Hazard is where we're going to start.
Linda Burfield Hazard was born in 1867.
(12:47):
She became a self-proclaimed doctor.
My favorite kind of doctor.
I love that.
I was so fascinated by people who do that.
You know what feels good?
I call me doctor.
So I say self-proclaimed because she didn't actually have formal medical training obviously.
Instead, she used a loophole in Washington state law to become licensed as a quote,
(13:08):
fasting specialist.
Fasting?
Like not eating?
Correct.
The doctor of not eating?
The doctor of the doctor of starvation.
That is weird.
Her fasting method was based on the belief that fasting could cleanse the body of toxins.
Sure, people are doing that whole intermittent fasting thing.
The key word being intermittent, meaning you don't do it all the time.
(13:31):
But she did it all the time.
She was like, oh she just sold other people too.
So yeah.
But it wasn't just skipping that meal or two.
Like I said, it wasn't intermittent.
Patients were put on diets of almost nothing.
Thin broths and occasional juices while undergoing harsh treatments like enemas and massages.
Well, massage doesn't sound so harsh.
(13:52):
But on top of an enema, no thanks.
No thanks.
And when I say massage, I'm talking more like a brutal pummeling of the flesh to eliminate these toxins.
I think it was more acidic.
She sounds sadistic.
Yeah, like sadistically.
We were talking about that doctor who invented the, what's that called?
The lobotomy.
(14:14):
Yeah, he's with the nose.
What if he wasn't a doctor either?
What if he's like just self-proclaimed doctor?
I don't know.
I don't know enough about that.
I don't either.
So patients, okay.
Surprisingly, this brutal treatment led to many patients dying.
Surprise.
Yeah.
You even ran a sanitarium in Olala, Washington.
(14:36):
Have you heard of Olala?
It's up on the peninsula.
Yeah, well, I do.
I have heard of Olala.
Sorry, my brain is going through sanitarium.
No, please.
Because sanitarium, to me, my initial thought, because of the word sanitary, is like, oh, it's a clean place.
And then I have to like convert my, I have to translate my own brain and remind myself, oh, that.
It's an asylum.
An asylum.
Yeah.
So for like sanity, sanitarium.
(14:58):
Okay.
Yeah.
And that was called Wilderness Heights, nicknamed Starvation Heights by the locals.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
She was eventually convicted of manslaughter in 1912 after the death of a wealthy British woman named Claire Williamson.
So here's what would happen.
She would get these people, often those wealthy people.
(15:21):
Remember, this is before internet, before people could communicate readily with one another.
So they would come from across the country or whatever, come to her for treatment.
Somehow she would lure them out to her beautiful Wilderness Heights estate.
And then she would weaken them with this treatment.
She said was going to clean their bodies of toxins, et cetera.
And in their weakened physical state, then of course the mental state also weakens.
(15:46):
And then she would have them sign over their power of attorney to her.
So then she would have control over their financials.
And this is how she became wealthy and would get their money.
So she, and they were so far removed from major civilization, they were, you know, out in the Lala.
So it's not right next to Seattle.
Right.
(16:07):
It takes a trek to get there.
Plus they would come from East Coast, things like that.
And so she would, yeah, there's some really intense stories.
There's books written about her, articles written about her.
Things she did, there were a pair of sisters that were very famous that she abused both of them.
And one tried to save the other at one point and then she ended up, yeah, they, they didn't, they didn't, one didn't make it for sure.
(16:28):
That's horrible.
Yeah, she was awful.
But it's also smart.
Like she sounds like she really kind of horribly, smartly stole from all these people.
It's kind of like the, like, I think like Black Widow things where they would marry wealthy people or men have done it too, right?
Yeah.
They either take out a life insurance policy on a spouse or marry someone who already has one or is independently wealthy and then they inherit everything once that person has disappeared or unalived in some way.
(16:59):
So, but eventually her, these people being drawn to her in desperation for this miracle cure ended up being her undoing.
Her greed was her undoing.
She would target these wealthy patients, convincing them to sign over their assets and then she starved them to death.
And here's where things get eerie.
Some of her victims were taken to the Butterworth Mortuary in Seattle.
(17:22):
Sorry, Butterworth.
I know, that terrible stereotypical icon.
But now known as the Butterworth building.
And so it's also famous for being Kel's Irish pub.
Oh yeah, that's super famous.
Yeah, great Irish bar.
Great Irish bar.
And that's where we, we spent some time there.
So let's talk about the Butterworth building.
(17:43):
Okay.
So they had this deal.
She and the people running the mortuary where she would, they would trade out the bodies.
So these people would die.
They would swap out for visitation from loved ones so that it would look, they wouldn't notice that they were really starved.
So somehow they would fool people.
She paid them under the table so that they wouldn't reveal her secrets and vice versa.
(18:07):
And they have this sort of symbiotic relationship.
Well, people are dead and maybe you don't, maybe make them up so heavily you can't tell.
Or if you haven't seen them in years and years and years, you may not even know what they look like anymore.
I guess.
So they just tried to make them look healthy, dead healthy.
Not super skinny.
Yeah.
I don't know how you would do that.
They would live it away.
It would be like some major contouring or something.
(18:30):
I think you pick a different body and you just say that this was them.
They just changed you.
They were unwell and yeah.
So they're showing other people's bodies to the families and the families aren't even really catching it until they do.
But at some point they're going to catch it.
Yeah.
So they had this.
Not so shiny.
Shady dealings.
So this is the not so smart part.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(18:51):
And also that makes me think of like death portraits.
How a lot of people wouldn't get their first professional portraits done unless someone died, especially children.
So if they wanted to have a memory of their child, they didn't take family portraits.
They didn't take school pictures.
They would put some money toward it if they could upon that child's death.
So then the child would often be posed as if it were alive, held up with wires and string and wouldn't like.
(19:15):
Wow.
Pedestals and things so that they could get that person.
Yeah.
No.
I know.
Death photography.
Yeah.
But if you didn't have anything else of your child, of course you would do that if you could scrape together enough pennies to make it.
Yeah.
But I mean like the job of, oh yeah.
Being the poser.
It's money.
I guess.
Money.
(19:36):
I guess.
I mean I think of it like a funeral director now.
That's what they're doing.
They're, if you are involved and you get your makeup put on so you can have an open casket funeral.
Yeah.
That's what someone's doing.
I guess.
But this is what seems more extreme to me because they're hanging them up with strings and putting wire in their clothes to hold them up.
That's a whole other level.
Interesting, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so the Butterworth Worth Building was built in 1903.
(20:01):
The first, Seattle's first purpose built mortuary.
Purpose built so it didn't accidentally become a mortuary.
And it was part of the Butterworth & Sons Mortuary business located in what is now the historic Pioneer Square.
And it has a dark, which also that whole area, dark history of its own.
Well that whole area is where the underground tours.
So that whole area is where like there were the fires and the.
(20:23):
Great bars, pubs, libraries right now, but a lot of history.
There's also a bit of a homeless, houseless issue.
Yeah, I don't know if it is filled with great bars and stuff and they've been taken over by.
It still is.
Well, it is in that it's almost like when you go now, it's the houseless population is just like part of the backdrop.
It's so interesting because like I've never once been bothered by a houseless person.
(20:47):
They're not out to get me.
Like it's their situation right now and it sucks and there oftentimes there's drugs involved or this or that, but it's not about me.
And so people still go.
There's still tourism.
There's still things happening there.
There's a great Creole restaurant down by the Creole kitchen.
Amazing restaurant.
And then my of course, one of my dear friends, shout out to Brandy.
Her father operated the comedy underground there for.
(21:10):
Oh, incredible.
That's so cool.
So it's still going.
It's still there.
What do you think it is about mortuaries, Amanda, that makes them such hotspots for paranormal activity?
I have no idea because I don't understand.
I don't know what I believe about ghosts and spirits like in general.
(21:33):
Like I know people have incredible experiences that they can't explain that they tie to spirits of loved ones or spirits of the past.
But that I also hear a lot of stories about like near death experiences where people are like, I went somewhere, you know, my spirit went somewhere and it wasn't here on the planet anymore.
So and then there's probably thousands of other theories in between those spectrums.
(21:57):
So I don't know that I believe that like a mortuary would just be filled with all these spirits of people who have just passed.
Right.
We're like, where do I go?
What's going on?
But they have a lot of stories.
Yeah.
I think of it almost like a train station.
Like if there's a bunch of energy there that might be partly why is that people maybe are, you know, the slower processors like myself.
(22:21):
Maybe, you know, we die somewhere else, but we're still sort of attached physically, energetically to my body like, hey, wait, I'll just, I might just get in the car with the body.
Cool.
Okay.
So we're going to.
All right.
So now we're at this place.
Just try to process it like, right?
What's going on?
Where do I go next?
I don't know that I really want to leave this body, but I obviously have to.
(22:44):
I don't know.
Maybe it's like a transitional place for some folks.
Yeah.
And people are just quite haven't crossed that bridge or gone through the light or whatever they're hanging out or, or what if it's, you know how sometimes people claim that other entities will come and guide them, spirit guides, family members, or if you pass over and these other entities are there to be with you.
(23:05):
Maybe those entities are still hanging around at the mortuary.
Like they've helped someone.
Maybe, yeah.
Help someone go to life.
They're waiting for someone to arrive.
I really don't know, though.
Who knows?
I'm just pulling ideas out of the air.
Well, that's really all we have.
Yeah.
Right?
Like it's all theory at this point, unless, I mean, maybe there are some people who know, know, but even their personal experiences, they only know for themselves.
(23:27):
Right.
What their experience was.
Right.
The potential is so vast.
So I don't know.
But I think it's an interesting question and I definitely have heard like you so many stories of people working in the funeral business who have lots of stories.
Yes.
Lots and lots.
So at this time during Linda Hazard's time, the 1900s, Seattle, like we talked about earlier was a rough and tumble port city.
(23:54):
And Mr. Butterworth and Sons handled many of the cities dead, including victims of crimes, accidents and diseases.
So it's not a huge leap to imagine why so many believe the building is haunted.
Tons of traumatic death as well as just your run of the mill.
That's a terrible lumber industry pun, but your run of the mill deaths.
(24:17):
I love it.
Add to the fact that some of Linda Hazard's victims were brought, processed there.
So the residual energy theoretically could be pretty desperate, feeling betrayed, alone, not understanding.
Yeah.
How did I get here?
How did I let this happen?
Well, how far is this what I was just looking at?
(24:38):
How far is a Lala from Seattle?
Well, as the crow flies nowadays, not super far, but is it back then?
But back then?
Oh my gosh.
That would have been a whole day's journey, right?
A couple days probably.
Oh gosh.
It's on the peninsula.
So it's across the Puget Sound.
There's nowhere closer she could have brought the bodies for processing or...
(25:00):
I think she had a special deal.
She just had that deal with them.
Yeah.
So she would take them all the way up.
By boat, I guess.
Wow.
That's a whole journey.
I'm looking at a map right now.
If you look up O'Lala to Seattle and imagine it in the before...
1900s.
Before the ferry system.
Yeah.
Like how would they...
That would have been a whole journey.
That's like the Oregon Trail journey.
(25:21):
With dead bodies in the back.
With dead bodies in the back.
That's wild.
And she probably had to do it herself because you couldn't entrust too many other people.
Oh my gosh.
And if she had to do it herself, then she probably would only make the trip so often.
So she'd probably like...
Store her up.
Store her up.
And I don't think she took very many at a time.
Like this wasn't like a sanitary full of people.
Like she would have a couple people at a time.
(25:43):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
As I understand it anyway.
So this place now houses...
The Butterworth Building now houses Kelz Irish Pub.
And employees and visitors have reported lots of paranormal activity to this day.
So objects moving on their own.
Disembodied voices.
Shadowy figures.
One of the most famous stories is my favorite.
Involves the apparition of a young girl seen on the pub's staircase.
(26:07):
Now, this is the paranormal experience that my husband and I have when we did this tour.
Oh, I'm excited.
So we had our cell phones and everybody did.
We're out on the sidewalk looking in on the backside of this building.
So where this famous staircase is where they frequently have seen this ghostly child.
So you're looking through these rounded glass windows into this building and there's a staircase on the left.
(26:31):
So we're all of course trying to take pictures with our phones to just for funsies.
It's at night time.
See if we can capture anything on our cameras.
Well, I'm not kidding.
Both of us go to hold up our phones and our phones just go completely dead.
Oh, that's such a wild phenomenon.
Not off.
Right.
Like we powered them off off and we could not get them to turn back on until we walked away and we got a couple of blocks away and then our phones turned back on.
(26:58):
That's wild.
And it happened to both of us at exactly the same time.
Yeah.
And I hear I've heard so, so, so, so, so many stories about the power drain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was cool.
And so people have wondered, could she be a victim tied to the building's mortuary days?
Here's another question for you.
What's your take on child apparitions?
(27:19):
Why do they seem to affect people more than other types of hauntings?
I don't know.
But I, I don't know why someone told me, you know, how I go on Facebook and I've been like engaging with people who like the same things we do.
Someone recently who told me they believe that when children continue to grow in the spirit world up to, I believe, they don't stay as babies or children.
(27:45):
You believe that?
So then if you're seeing a child ghost, you're just seeing them in that moment in time.
And if you came back 10 years later, they wouldn't be a child ghost anymore.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That's, that's, yeah, that is definitely an intersection of theories that doesn't add up.
Right.
I don't know why people see, claim to see child ghosts more often.
(28:09):
Maybe what we think are ghosts or whatever we're seeing is short in stature or smaller.
And that makes us think that it's a child.
Maybe when we catch like EVPs or weird voice phenomenon, it sounds like giggling or a child's voice, whatever it is, whatever we're hearing.
I don't, I really don't know.
(28:31):
Or maybe, I mean, there's, I've heard people have kind of a dark theory on it that sometimes it's because children are so non-threatening that other entities that might mean us harm, present as innocent children.
So that we trust them.
Like the trickster thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Also could be that just like in life, I think kids are much more attuned to the spirit world when they're little.
(28:57):
Maybe it's the same kind on the flip side, like they're more attuned to connecting to the human.
That's an interesting theory.
Yeah.
I don't know.
You make me think, you just reminded me for a second of the episode we did on the Black Eyed Kids, possibly being something really sinister that was pretending to be a kid.
I hadn't thought about that with kid ghosts, kid spirits.
(29:18):
I don't know.
I've never, I've never encountered a child like spirit like in a paranormal way, like giggling voices or like playing with a toy or the pitter-patter of little feet or anything like that.
I've never experienced that, but that's so, so common.
Right.
All of those things.
Okay.
So segment three.
So segment one, introduce you to Linda Hazard and her deal.
(29:39):
Okay.
Two, Butterworth building.
Three, paranormal experiences now at starvation heights and the Butterworth building.
When we talk about residual energy, like where it's like on repeat, unlike a recording.
Yes, heard of that too.
It's just happening over and over again.
It's impossible to ignore the trauma associated with Linda Hazard's story.
(30:02):
So we're going to start with her infamous sanitarium in Olala and what's going on to this day.
So locals and visitors to the wilderness height site, nicknamed starvation heights have reported some deeply unsettling phenomena.
People, and I totally want to go.
Is the building still there?
What's it look like?
I'm going to Google it.
Google it.
Yeah, you got to see.
But people say they hear faint cries or moans, which they believe could be echoes of the patients who suffered and died there.
(30:27):
Yeah.
The original buildings are gone.
So you may not find anything today, but you could see what it looked like in the past.
But the land itself seems to hold on to some memories according to visitors.
Okay.
A few ghost hunters who've explored the area reported sudden drops in temperature and explained feelings of dread and even the sound of footsteps crunching on gravel, despite being completely alone.
(30:53):
Yeesh.
Also, that land is going to have a lot of memories from indigenous people throughout his life.
Yeah.
Not just Linda Hazard and her patients like that land.
Washington State, Pacific Coastal Tribal Nations were all over and abundant and thriving until white settlers came in and devastated some things.
(31:22):
So some witnesses have also claimed to see, oh God, what I wouldn't give, to see the figure of a woman in a white dress pacing in the distance.
They wondered if that could be Linda herself, hopefully restless because of her crimes.
We should go there, Lin.
That's not really far from us.
Road trip.
But I can't tell on Google just in the minute I have here, if buildings are gone, is it just like a field, an overgrown field, or was something else put in its place?
(31:53):
When you Google starvation heights or wilderness heights, does anything come up on Google Maps?
It comes up like, oh, I'll do it on the map. On Google, it brings up like history that you're going over here.
I'm sure there's at least signage, I would hope.
I mean, for tourism alone, that seems to be foolish not to have at least a sign.
(32:14):
Do you know there's also a starvation heights in Oregon?
Really?
Yeah, that's coming up on the map before the Washington one.
Well, I hadn't heard that she had like a franchise.
Or maybe it was just another...
She like sold the rights to it.
Here, you can have a franchise.
Well, maybe at that time, I don't know, but people were like...
(32:37):
It might have been a trend.
It might have been a trend where people were like, you know, we have all kinds of weird health trends now, maybe at that time.
Always. We're always looking for a miracle cure.
Yeah.
So we don't have to work very hard and can preferably just pay for some money and have all of our problems solved.
I'm not having any like, Olala is not a big town.
No.
(32:58):
It's very small. There's not a lot there.
And I think that might have been part of the point.
Like she went somewhere very uninhabited.
Yeah.
That would be a fun trip to see if there's anything else.
Another one, this is a total tangent, but there...
What is it?
It's the...
(33:19):
I'm gonna Google it really quick.
There's an old mental health hospital.
It's not in operation anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.
It's a penitentiary...
That's the one I'm looking at.
Mental health hospital.
Is it Northwestern State?
(33:40):
State hospital?
Because of course we still have Western State Hospital.
But I think there's Northwestern State Hospital as well.
I feel like if you're ghost hunting at the old mental health hospitals,
you have more chance of seeing something just because we don't know if spirits are souls or if it's like residual energy.
(34:06):
Right.
I mean if it's even a phenomenon that is this, I don't know what I believe.
I'm gonna be clear about that.
Right.
I don't know if you're gonna be able to see this, but if it's souls of people,
you have a chance of hitting it there at a mental health hospital.
Just because we're highly populated, you know, folks, I mean on through there.
Right.
A lot of them would have gone through and would have passed away.
And if it's residual energy, a lot of people would have experienced a lot of negative energy.
(34:30):
So you have like...
I don't know if you're like betting, if you're a betting person,
you have a better chance of hitting something paranormal.
Hitting the jackpot, paranormal jackpot.
Yeah, your odds are much greater.
Yeah.
For sure.
And then you can see Drowooly, which is also not far from here.
Oh, we can go there.
It's not far.
And it's on the National Register of Historical Places located four miles northeast from the
(34:51):
city.
And you have to like hike into it from what I understand.
So it's a bit, it's closed, of course.
And there was a murder there.
There, lots of murders and lots of trauma.
And it was closed in 19...
Gosh, it was open pretty late.
(35:15):
1973?
1973.
It closed in 1973.
Or no, I'm sorry.
Golly.
19...
Oh, it's so hard to tell.
But I think it closed maybe in the 1950s, but in 19...
They kept making discoveries of things in the 70s and in the 80s.
(35:36):
And in 1995, it was revealed that by the United States Department of Energy that radiation
experiments were conducted on patients.
Oh my gosh.
They were iron 55, whatever that is, was injected into the veins of patients at 100 microcurie
dosages and monitored over a period of months.
Ooh.
I can, I don't know about you, but I get really creeped out when I think about the mental
(36:00):
health hospitals from hundreds of years ago as a woman.
As a woman.
Gosh.
Any time that I've just been extra cranky or non-compliant, I think of those times when
I'm like, wow, if I were here 150 years ago, my husband could just put me away and just
be like, she's hysterical.
(36:21):
Yep.
Just because I disagree or just because I'm, like I said, moody.
It's freak.
So they have like an extra layer of fear for me as a woman.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and I really like get, I stay up at night sometimes like just thinking about women
that did go through that and how sad that is.
And then to know that you just give up all your rights.
You've not like you have a lot of rights as a woman anyway, but you get there and like
(36:44):
they can do experiments on you.
They can take your hair.
They can do whatever they want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whatever they want.
Yep.
Anytime there's an oppressed group, a marginalized group, they historically become the victims
of experimentation.
They're the guinea pigs to learn how to help those who, to help oppressors.
(37:07):
So whether it's Jews and other victims of the concentration camps were experimented
on in horrendous, horrific, multitudes of ways or enslaved populations or even post-slavery
in, you know, Jim Crow era and onward for a long time and somewhat argue even still,
(37:28):
experimenting on black populations.
And then I have such just yicky feelings about all the things we learned medically through
that.
Like, yeah, some, some discoveries were made that are very beneficial to date, but at the
cost there.
Yes.
Yes.
(37:49):
It's awful.
It's awful.
There had to be a better way.
I mean, obviously there had to be a better way.
And yeah, it's, it's a really, really hard, deep, yucky minefield to get into of medical
discoveries and how we were able to further medicine through horrors against our fellow
(38:13):
human beings.
It's just awful yucky.
Yeah, hopefully the souls of the perpetrators are paying for it, I hope.
No, that's not very loving and forgiving of me, but F them.
I do not care.
Okay.
So shifting to the Butterworth building now.
(38:35):
So out on the land of the starvation heights, wilderness heights, whatever they might see,
potentially Linda herself with a soul of a wandering victim in white and then and sounds,
footsteps, et cetera, moans.
But then back at the pub, it has a reputation all its own, even without the connection to
(38:57):
Linda hazard.
So visitors to Kells, we got to go some time.
I thought about, I thought about this when we were going to record a couple of weeks
ago.
And I thought I was going to do this one.
We ended up splitting it into two parts and that episode we split it into two parts.
And so then I was like, Oh, I take, I want to take a man up and do Kells, just go get
a, get a beer.
You know, I don't drink beer, but go get a beer and have some fish and chips and hang
(39:19):
out in Seattle.
Maybe we can even wander a little bit, be like, well, we're going to the bathroom and
see if we can find some.
Somehow we end up locked in a basement somewhere.
Now it's an escape room.
One of the most chilling stories is of a figure that seems to follow people up and down the
staircase.
Some employees even claim they feel a hand on their back only the turnaround.
(39:41):
If I know one there, they see shadowy figures in the mirrors.
There's mirrors all over the place.
Oh, just in the mirror.
Yeah.
This one is hilarious to me.
There's also the young girl often seen near the staircase, that same girl that we tried
to photograph, or this cracks me up in the back corner of the pub.
So can you imagine, you're just like, who let that kid in?
We're just going to let that kid sit back there.
(40:04):
Okay.
I love it.
Some believe she's tied to the building's history as a mortuary, though her specific
connection remains a mystery.
And if I'm a ghost, an Irish pub is not the worst place to be connected to.
Also kids were probably allowed in pubs.
Oh yeah.
In previous, I'm right.
Like if you work there and you live upstairs and you've got 10 kids, you probably have to
(40:25):
go back.
And you're regulated as they are by laws and age restrictions now.
My kids are super stoked about going to Europe this summer when they can.
Like in Ireland, my son will turn 16 in Iceland this summer while we're there.
And I don't know what the drinking age is there, but I'm pretty sure it's probably not
21.
And then I know for sure when we're in Ireland and stuff, I'm sure he'll have little Guinness
(40:47):
or something.
My daughter will be 18.
So for sure, she could imbibe if she wants to, which I'm kind of hoping the mystery is
sucked out when your parents are right there going, yeah, go for it.
Here, we'll buy you a shot.
Right.
Let's see what happens, sis.
Well, my dad would let me drink with him when I was a little kid, but he, uh, it wasn't
like a lot.
(41:07):
He would have a beer every day when he came home from work, a rainier beer, talking about
Washington.
Classic.
Yeah.
And he, you remember those little Dixie cups that we had to brush our teeth to wash our
mouth out?
He would put in this, this teeny on the very bottom of the Dixie cup, a little bit of his
rainier beer.
And so I had a rainier beer all the time.
To toast the end of the day with dad.
Oh, we'd lay down and watch the news and yeah, that's cute.
(41:31):
That's actually cute.
Um, okay.
So we got that little girl.
I got, we got to go see if we can find that little girl.
Yeah.
Glasses fall off shelves, chairs shift when no one is near them and lights flicker unexpectedly.
Some might say it's just an old building.
Right.
It's an old building in Seattle, but it's still more fun, I think, to believe in the
panel.
Do you remember when we went out to eat and to coma?
(41:52):
It was like right when I first moved here, I was about to move here.
We went out to eat in to coma at the melting pot or spaghetti factory or something.
Okay.
And a glass fell off the counter and the bar and you saw it.
And when the waitress came over, you were like, did you see that glass just fall off
the table?
You don't remember this?
I have no memory of this.
(42:13):
And the waitress was like, oh yeah, that happens sometimes.
We think we have like a ghost or a spirit.
I have no memory of that.
Yeah.
This happens to me all the time.
That's wild.
I think I have all cybers.
I'm gonna get some video.
This happens to me all the time.
People will show me pictures of me at places, not in the distant.
I'm talking in the last 10, 15 years.
They'll show me a picture of me at like, um, Kathy Griffin comedy show.
(42:35):
I have no memory of it.
And that was like, let's see, that would have been about 14 years ago.
But I have a theory that we cannot hold every day every moment in our head.
I think we chew like something about that moment in time.
I remember it got siphoned out wild for me or something.
I don't know.
It just stuck into memory, but for you, maybe, maybe you'd seen it before.
(42:58):
I just, I might have just been so excited that you'd move back here.
That was my focus more than anything else.
Screw that glass.
Fly it off.
Uh, oh man.
Okay.
So they also get recorded EVPs and you can get these online.
You can find some for recorded at Kells.
Fake voices saying things like help or why?
But it's just the one word.
(43:19):
That's what I said to our, I know with my whole face.
Yeah.
Cause you have like two whole sentences.
I'm sorry.
I'm so, so sorry.
I forgive you.
Like I've said it in that space.
I've said it a couple of times, like whatever I forgive you, forgive yourself.
Whatever it was, it's okay.
Um, one investigator, paranormal investigator mentioned this person sounds a bit like a
(43:41):
drama, dramatic person, but feeling overwhelmed with nausea and weakness in the
Butterworth basement.
We gotta get to the basement.
I want to go to the, it's always the basement.
I was just reading, I don't know.
Basements and addicts, man.
I'm just reading about the Sally house today.
Sally house is super famous.
Oh, it's super famous.
Oh my gosh.
Is it in Washington?
No.
Um, I'm sure.
Sally house?
(44:01):
The Sally house.
Yeah.
Like crazy paranormal stuff happened in the, in the, I think it's in the Midwest, but
okay, that's another story.
But anyway, it's very famous for paranormal activity and the basements, like the most,
where they get the most activity.
Is it because that's where not a lot's happening?
Like the hub of the home is usually the main floor, whatever the main floor is, where the
(44:22):
kitchen, living room, dining room is.
And that's where everybody's chilling most 90% of the time in a house.
Addicts and basements are typically used for storage or occasional use.
And so if I'm a ghost and I want to be left the H alone, I'm going to
cause it in the basement, yeah, I guess my own room.
I guess.
I don't know.
There's a space that isn't invaded by all the other people you don't know.
(44:46):
Speaking of like other houses like that, I just heard today, very brief encounter on
Reels, maybe on Facebook, that the conjuring house is being closed to the public.
Have you heard that?
No.
Why would they close it?
They don't know.
I just saw that it's been closed for good to the public and it's for the best is what
it said. So I need to look into this.
(45:07):
Oh my gosh.
It also sounds a little bit like a great plug for more tourism.
Right.
It does.
Or it's other movies.
Get there while you can.
Okay, so let's see.
These stories make me think a lot about like just, well, abusive humanity and how you can
capitalize on that is one thing, but not that I plan to, but just saying like that is something
(45:32):
that is throughout history. How can I capitalize on someone else's pain and suffering rather than
just helping like just fine. Did she, did doctor quote unquote hazard really think that what she
had was a cure for what ails people or did she know from jump like these morons will fall for
(45:53):
anything.
She had to know because as soon as she was really a scientist, if she was really had gotten her
doctor degree for real and gone through like training and the scientific method, she would
have recognized would have been looking at her data constantly and recognizing she's not getting
the results from the treatment that she's prescribing, which means you need a new intervention,
(46:14):
you need a new prescription, but she continued to prescribe the starvation and same thing,
getting the same result each time. Absolutely. This is when you become a murderer.
Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe it started out innocently. Like she was a natural path of her time and really
thought, I mean, they did bloodletting, right? They were still in the air of bloodletting.
(46:37):
So, and maybe it was along those lines of like, we just need to purge the body of toxins. Well,
what's one easy way to do that? Don't give it anything to start with. So, yeah, we just purge
whatever's in there and then the body, I don't know, the body will just heal itself from the
inside out. We just, this is not how it works. So, maybe it started out innocently. I mean,
(46:57):
do we have any stories of people who went to her facility for treatment and recovered?
Recovered and better? No. Every single one who went there went to die. I don't think there were a lot,
but yeah. Oh, gosh. There might have been an escapee, but it's not coming to mind. But I don't,
I don't know if I'm an escapee. I mean, someone would be like, but remember folks, this is not an
educational podcast unless you educate us. So, there's probably people listening right away. Oh,
(47:21):
my God, my great-grandmother escaped from Sarvation Heights. There's an entire documentary
series about her on PBS. How do you not know? Our podcast is literally like 45 minutes every week
of us doing swandering. What is this? Welcome to the Wondering Zone. We don't know anything. We don't
know, but it's fascinating to wonder. Yeah, so, yeah, it sucks for those people big time, but there
(47:47):
are some really, really great books about Linda Hazard. There's one called Sarvation Heights.
I owned it at one time. I don't know if I still do. Yeah. I want to be a ghost tenor exploring that
land for sure. We got to take a road trip and then we got to go to Kells. Maybe we could do both.
Like, I don't know if it's possible to go up. Ah, flinch. Take a ferry over. Yeah. Wander around.
(48:11):
Come back. Come back and share our experience on the podcast. I don't think anybody would want to
even hear that. What if nothing happens? It could just be a mini-soad. A mini episode.
That's all I got for today. It was just a little bit about Linda Hazard and Starvation Heights.
That's great. Yeah. I didn't know any of that. I really didn't. And at that time, like as a chubby
(48:37):
woman, I very easily would have been like, sounds great. Sign me up. Sign me up. I can't starve
myself on my own. I need somebody to beat it into me. Take my money. Oh my God. That's just terrible.
I'm learning to love myself. One Reese's peanut butter cup at a time. All right. Well, I love it.
(48:58):
Class dismissed. Don't open the door unless it's to the basement because basements are awesome.
The Paranormal Classroom.
(00:14):
Alright welcome back to the Paranormal Classroom where we explore the strange, the spooky,
and the shadowy corners of history.
Today Amanda we're going to dive into a story that combines true crime, my favorite, a dash
of quackery, and some haunting ties to Seattle's past.
(00:35):
Our big city native to the North.
I love it when you, this is your second one in a row that's like local.
I love the local stuff.
I think that's really fun because I think our more media audience might even be people
who we live near so that's something that they can connect to.
And also, I'm proud of where we live.
There's so much history and cool stuff going on around here that if you don't live here
(00:56):
locally, come visit.
Seattle area, Washington state, particularly western Washington, but even the eastern
side of the state, we have everything in Washington.
Everything.
But before we dive into all of that, especially the quackery bits, what's haunting you this
week?
Oh it is haunting me.
You know what, I'm just thinking while you were talking just now that how we should need
(01:17):
to do something on Bigfoot because Washington is famous for Bigfoot.
Oh yeah, that's always like backburner.
Like if you imagine a stove top with like four burners like the old school stuff, it's
back right.
Like it's always there and you know, simmering.
It's always simmering because he's my favorite.
I have a tattoo of Bigfoot.
Oh my gosh.
I love Bigfoot.
(01:37):
Yeah, we'll do something on Bigfoot too.
It just feels like where did it even begin?
However, I do have a contact who's connected to Bigfoot in major ways.
And he has said, he's told my husband, he's more directly connected to my husband.
So he's told him that he would do our podcast for us.
So when I feel like we're ready for that level of celebrity guest, we'll go with it.
(02:01):
It's exciting.
I think it'll be super fun.
So I think what's haunting me is today's the first time we are recording in your home,
not in a car, with the laptop.
It's much more official.
We're getting some recording stuff set up and we're looking at each other.
Yeah.
It's the first time that we're recording.
Not peripherally.
You're like eye to eye.
(02:22):
I'm staring into my soul.
It's like a dinner date.
And Amanda's having a diet coke and I'm having a mimosa in a can.
Yeah.
And it's dinner date.
Cheers.
At noon on Sunday.
Yes, salute.
Yeah, cheers to an upcoming new year.
We're recording just before Christmas.
(02:43):
It's what is today?
Sunday, December 22nd, right around the corner.
We just got out of school.
Yeah.
So, it's like the school year, this first term went so late.
December 20th was our last day.
I don't know about you, but as a parent, I don't know who keeps voting for this calendar
like this that gets us right up to Christmas.
And then we have through January 6th.
(03:04):
I don't need it through January.
What am I doing?
No.
What am I doing between the first and the sixth of January?
You need the time before Christmas to get ready for Christmas.
To prep.
If you celebrate, yeah.
And I hate rapping.
I hate rapping.
And now you have to wrap it all in two days.
Today.
I'm doing it this afternoon.
It's a nightmare.
But it's a blessing.
Oh my gosh, we got a puppy and that's a whole other story.
(03:25):
That's a podcast by itself.
That's a whole podcast on its own.
I didn't want the puppy and I was out of town and my husband was there.
Surprise.
Surprise puppy.
But that's like having the surprise baby.
Yeah, but it's really kind of, I don't know, it's not doing Christmas set any favorites
in our house because our house, which I usually really enjoy the decorations and just the festive
(03:46):
atmosphere.
Now there's tarps on the floor and there's pee on the floor and just today my husband's
like, we need to move the tree in the presence, you know, out of the house because the puppy's
getting, you know, somewhere where the puppy can't go.
You know, so.
You're going to be one of those people that hangs your tree from the ceiling.
We've seen these people.
I don't want to do that.
No, no, or puts the big giant fence around their tree so the dog can't get to it.
(04:11):
I don't want to do that.
I just, I didn't want a dog.
So every, I think everything that's like.
Every extra step is kind of bothering me.
So.
Understandably, I get it.
It's a weird stitch for sure.
I'm sorry.
I know you love it.
You love your, you love your home.
You love the festivities.
I like my home.
It's not, it's a mess right now.
(04:32):
It's a mess.
Hopefully it's just a chapter.
Yeah, I hope it's just this year.
Yes.
Yeah.
Hopefully, hopefully.
Besides all the wrapping that we, I should look at it differently that we get to do.
Like the fact that I have things to wrap is a blessing.
And I'm excited for that.
I don't really, I don't think there's anything really haunting me.
(04:53):
This is always a lovely time of year working up to, building up to winter break.
It was an awesome last few weeks of school, typically elementary school kids, perhaps
kids of all ages are losing their dang minds right before winter break.
But, and I know teachers are for sure.
Yeah.
Well, there's so much extra that we have to do.
I don't know that people know what all we do right before the holidays for all, for
(05:14):
all 30 kids, 25 kids, you know, right?
We give them an experience because we don't know what kind of experiences they get outside
of school.
So extra crafts and extra little celebrations and you are coordinating with parents to bring
in treats and snacks and goodies and there's music and there's spirit week dress ups and
all the things.
So it's wonderful except that it throws off all routine, which ironically that's also
(05:38):
what most of our kids need the most is that routine and knowing what's coming.
And so it creates this hubbub atmosphere that can increase anxiety for everybody as a specialist.
I don't have to absorb so much of that because they're in and out of my room anyway all week
long.
But so I just kind of get the fun, the fun bits of them, the excited bits, but not the
(06:00):
over sugared, crashed out, you know, versions of them.
I it was lovely.
It was a lovely week.
I actually posted to my personal Facebook page a picture of with no faces visible, of course,
but a couple of kindergartners and I said something to the effective at the end of Friday, I had
zero F's left to give.
(06:20):
So here are two kindergartners using a chomp saw and a 3D pen, which are two pieces of
equipment that I reserve for fourth and fifth graders with direct supervision.
And I was like, go for it.
What did they make?
Disaster.
I just used some tag board because it's much easier to cut than corrugated cardboard.
(06:41):
And that's what the chomp saw is designed to do, cut cardboard.
So I just said, here's some tag board, bra a shape and then cut it out.
And here's how basics of how it works.
And I sat right there at the table.
But I wasn't hand over handing it.
I wasn't like giving any specific instructions.
And then even with the 3D pen, I was like, it's hot, like hot glue.
(07:01):
Don't put it on your skin.
Don't touch the end of it.
Make the shape that you just cut out of the chomp saw and cover it in 3D filament.
Have fun.
And that was it.
They had a black.
My bad.
So I had other stations going around the room for them to experiment with and play with,
but they wanted to one at a time come check out those two things.
So of course they did.
All for them.
(07:22):
Yeah.
You know, when you tell them, oh, normally only the big kids get to do this, but happy
holidays.
The snoco is phoning it in.
They didn't know that.
They just thought they were getting to do something special.
Yeah.
So easy, easy for me.
So yeah, I don't really have anything haunting me right now.
I've not had any continued paranormal experience at my house.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
(07:42):
Nothing, nothing that I've noticed anyway.
Everything seems normal.
Nothing out of the ordinary.
Thank God.
I can only handle maybe one, what a quarter.
Like once every few months go ahead and hit me with something weird, but any more than
that, I'd be a nervous wreck.
Yeah.
Right.
So should we get into it?
Let's do it.
So have you ever done this is kind of random.
Have you ever done a, one of the ghost tours or ghost walks in Seattle?
(08:06):
Yeah.
I did the underground one.
Okay.
Okay.
So there's, I've done two.
I've done the underground one and I did another one above ground.
That was, I think the market was the, was the marketplace market was sort of the center
of it, but we walked all over that market downtown part of Seattle started in the market.
(08:27):
And I think it's actually called market ghost tours.
That sounds fun.
It's really fun.
The underground ghost tours really cool.
Cause you learn about the history of Seattle and you learn that Seattle was built on silt
and I don't really know what silt is, but I'm sandy, sandy.
Yeah.
So, so Seattle used to be a lot lower and they closer to the water, closer to the water
(08:50):
and then they built it up, but they still have like some of the building structures
that go down below what you think is the level ground.
So that's why it's called the underground tour because you're down under the sidewalks.
Seeing some of the original structure.
Yeah.
It's like original like storefronts and buildings and things that people would have walked by
when the ground was at a lower level.
(09:12):
In our earlier days where we were logging and minors would pass through on their way to
Alaska and so logging was a huge one.
Of course, fishing, shipping, things like that, massive industries, huge, what's the
word I'm looking for?
Epicenter of local indigenous trade.
(09:35):
So a lot of Pacific coastal tribal nations would come to the chief self area to conduct
business and meet up and have gatherings of all kinds.
So so much rich, rich history, a lot of history then of course of alcohol, sex, work, violence
tied to all those things where you have a transient population.
(09:56):
And then the whole thing caught on fire.
So there was Seattle fire and then we built sort of also on top of that.
So you can when you're under there, you can see like burned out timber from some of the
old.
So it's really cool, but also pretty spooky.
When I did the tour, I didn't encounter anything paranormal on the underground one, but on
the above ground one, we had a couple of interesting experiences.
(10:18):
And one of the things that we learned about are well, two of the places that we talked
about, I'm going to talk about today because they have a relationship.
And in this tour, we went to one of the places, which is currently a very well known pub nowadays,
but it used to be a mortuary.
Whoa, whoa.
(10:39):
Yes.
And that mortuary was tied to this woman that we're going to talk about today, who was quite
possibly one of, if not the first female serial killer in United States history.
What?
Yeah.
I wonder if anything you say will spark my memory.
I'm sure it will.
What you just said doesn't.
(10:59):
Like I'm like, there was a first female serial killer here in Washington.
Yeah.
Whoa.
When I say the words starvation heights, does that ring a bell?
No, it doesn't ring a bell at all.
It's going to be a new story.
Oh my gosh.
Right here.
Okay.
All right.
Today we are talking about Linda Hazard and the Butterworth.
What a great last name.
(11:20):
Right?
Two Z's.
I want my last name to be Mayhem.
Amanda Mayhem.
That sounds amazing.
It also sounds like a WWE character.
Bringing the Mayhem in the right, far right quarter or whatever they say.
Yeah.
And we'd be friends with, what's her name?
Hazard.
Yeah.
(11:41):
I was fantasized about being a WWE character and I was the wench with a winch.
And so like a, like a sparkly set of coveralls.
And then after I defeated my opponent, I would bring out a big like hook and chain and hook
it on and then winch him out of the ring.
Oh my gosh.
You'd like hook his skin.
I had a whole like a brother waist, like a big old hook.
(12:02):
Like that'd be my gimmick.
I overthought it.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
You never got to do that.
Maybe it's not too late.
It could also be a tag team duo and WWE.
Amanda Mayhem.
And the wench with a winch.
It doesn't have a real name.
Just an occupation.
(12:23):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So here we go.
This is going to be what I call segment one.
Okay.
The life and crime.
Why is it two parts?
It's two different stories that we're going to cross over.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the life and crimes of Linda Hazard is where we're going to start.
Linda Burfield Hazard was born in 1867.
(12:47):
She became a self-proclaimed doctor.
My favorite kind of doctor.
I love that.
I was so fascinated by people who do that.
You know what feels good?
I call me doctor.
So I say self-proclaimed because she didn't actually have formal medical training obviously.
Instead, she used a loophole in Washington state law to become licensed as a quote,
(13:08):
fasting specialist.
Fasting?
Like not eating?
Correct.
The doctor of not eating?
The doctor of the doctor of starvation.
That is weird.
Her fasting method was based on the belief that fasting could cleanse the body of toxins.
Sure, people are doing that whole intermittent fasting thing.
The key word being intermittent, meaning you don't do it all the time.
(13:31):
But she did it all the time.
She was like, oh she just sold other people too.
So yeah.
But it wasn't just skipping that meal or two.
Like I said, it wasn't intermittent.
Patients were put on diets of almost nothing.
Thin broths and occasional juices while undergoing harsh treatments like enemas and massages.
Well, massage doesn't sound so harsh.
(13:52):
But on top of an enema, no thanks.
No thanks.
And when I say massage, I'm talking more like a brutal pummeling of the flesh to eliminate these toxins.
I think it was more acidic.
She sounds sadistic.
Yeah, like sadistically.
We were talking about that doctor who invented the, what's that called?
The lobotomy.
(14:14):
Yeah, he's with the nose.
What if he wasn't a doctor either?
What if he's like just self-proclaimed doctor?
I don't know.
I don't know enough about that.
I don't either.
So patients, okay.
Surprisingly, this brutal treatment led to many patients dying.
Surprise.
Yeah.
You even ran a sanitarium in Olala, Washington.
(14:36):
Have you heard of Olala?
It's up on the peninsula.
Yeah, well, I do.
I have heard of Olala.
Sorry, my brain is going through sanitarium.
No, please.
Because sanitarium, to me, my initial thought, because of the word sanitary, is like, oh, it's a clean place.
And then I have to like convert my, I have to translate my own brain and remind myself, oh, that.
It's an asylum.
An asylum.
Yeah.
So for like sanity, sanitarium.
(14:58):
Okay.
Yeah.
And that was called Wilderness Heights, nicknamed Starvation Heights by the locals.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
She was eventually convicted of manslaughter in 1912 after the death of a wealthy British woman named Claire Williamson.
So here's what would happen.
She would get these people, often those wealthy people.
(15:21):
Remember, this is before internet, before people could communicate readily with one another.
So they would come from across the country or whatever, come to her for treatment.
Somehow she would lure them out to her beautiful Wilderness Heights estate.
And then she would weaken them with this treatment.
She said was going to clean their bodies of toxins, et cetera.
And in their weakened physical state, then of course the mental state also weakens.
(15:46):
And then she would have them sign over their power of attorney to her.
So then she would have control over their financials.
And this is how she became wealthy and would get their money.
So she, and they were so far removed from major civilization, they were, you know, out in the Lala.
So it's not right next to Seattle.
Right.
(16:07):
It takes a trek to get there.
Plus they would come from East Coast, things like that.
And so she would, yeah, there's some really intense stories.
There's books written about her, articles written about her.
Things she did, there were a pair of sisters that were very famous that she abused both of them.
And one tried to save the other at one point and then she ended up, yeah, they, they didn't, they didn't, one didn't make it for sure.
(16:28):
That's horrible.
Yeah, she was awful.
But it's also smart.
Like she sounds like she really kind of horribly, smartly stole from all these people.
It's kind of like the, like, I think like Black Widow things where they would marry wealthy people or men have done it too, right?
Yeah.
They either take out a life insurance policy on a spouse or marry someone who already has one or is independently wealthy and then they inherit everything once that person has disappeared or unalived in some way.
(16:59):
So, but eventually her, these people being drawn to her in desperation for this miracle cure ended up being her undoing.
Her greed was her undoing.
She would target these wealthy patients, convincing them to sign over their assets and then she starved them to death.
And here's where things get eerie.
Some of her victims were taken to the Butterworth Mortuary in Seattle.
(17:22):
Sorry, Butterworth.
I know, that terrible stereotypical icon.
But now known as the Butterworth building.
And so it's also famous for being Kel's Irish pub.
Oh yeah, that's super famous.
Yeah, great Irish bar.
Great Irish bar.
And that's where we, we spent some time there.
So let's talk about the Butterworth building.
(17:43):
Okay.
So they had this deal.
She and the people running the mortuary where she would, they would trade out the bodies.
So these people would die.
They would swap out for visitation from loved ones so that it would look, they wouldn't notice that they were really starved.
So somehow they would fool people.
She paid them under the table so that they wouldn't reveal her secrets and vice versa.
(18:07):
And they have this sort of symbiotic relationship.
Well, people are dead and maybe you don't, maybe make them up so heavily you can't tell.
Or if you haven't seen them in years and years and years, you may not even know what they look like anymore.
I guess.
So they just tried to make them look healthy, dead healthy.
Not super skinny.
Yeah.
I don't know how you would do that.
They would live it away.
It would be like some major contouring or something.
(18:30):
I think you pick a different body and you just say that this was them.
They just changed you.
They were unwell and yeah.
So they're showing other people's bodies to the families and the families aren't even really catching it until they do.
But at some point they're going to catch it.
Yeah.
So they had this.
Not so shiny.
Shady dealings.
So this is the not so smart part.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(18:51):
And also that makes me think of like death portraits.
How a lot of people wouldn't get their first professional portraits done unless someone died, especially children.
So if they wanted to have a memory of their child, they didn't take family portraits.
They didn't take school pictures.
They would put some money toward it if they could upon that child's death.
So then the child would often be posed as if it were alive, held up with wires and string and wouldn't like.
(19:15):
Wow.
Pedestals and things so that they could get that person.
Yeah.
No.
I know.
Death photography.
Yeah.
But if you didn't have anything else of your child, of course you would do that if you could scrape together enough pennies to make it.
Yeah.
But I mean like the job of, oh yeah.
Being the poser.
It's money.
I guess.
Money.
(19:36):
I guess.
I mean I think of it like a funeral director now.
That's what they're doing.
They're, if you are involved and you get your makeup put on so you can have an open casket funeral.
Yeah.
That's what someone's doing.
I guess.
But this is what seems more extreme to me because they're hanging them up with strings and putting wire in their clothes to hold them up.
That's a whole other level.
Interesting, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so the Butterworth Worth Building was built in 1903.
(20:01):
The first, Seattle's first purpose built mortuary.
Purpose built so it didn't accidentally become a mortuary.
And it was part of the Butterworth & Sons Mortuary business located in what is now the historic Pioneer Square.
And it has a dark, which also that whole area, dark history of its own.
Well that whole area is where the underground tours.
So that whole area is where like there were the fires and the.
(20:23):
Great bars, pubs, libraries right now, but a lot of history.
There's also a bit of a homeless, houseless issue.
Yeah, I don't know if it is filled with great bars and stuff and they've been taken over by.
It still is.
Well, it is in that it's almost like when you go now, it's the houseless population is just like part of the backdrop.
It's so interesting because like I've never once been bothered by a houseless person.
(20:47):
They're not out to get me.
Like it's their situation right now and it sucks and there oftentimes there's drugs involved or this or that, but it's not about me.
And so people still go.
There's still tourism.
There's still things happening there.
There's a great Creole restaurant down by the Creole kitchen.
Amazing restaurant.
And then my of course, one of my dear friends, shout out to Brandy.
Her father operated the comedy underground there for.
(21:10):
Oh, incredible.
That's so cool.
So it's still going.
It's still there.
What do you think it is about mortuaries, Amanda, that makes them such hotspots for paranormal activity?
I have no idea because I don't understand.
I don't know what I believe about ghosts and spirits like in general.
(21:33):
Like I know people have incredible experiences that they can't explain that they tie to spirits of loved ones or spirits of the past.
But that I also hear a lot of stories about like near death experiences where people are like, I went somewhere, you know, my spirit went somewhere and it wasn't here on the planet anymore.
So and then there's probably thousands of other theories in between those spectrums.
(21:57):
So I don't know that I believe that like a mortuary would just be filled with all these spirits of people who have just passed.
Right.
We're like, where do I go?
What's going on?
But they have a lot of stories.
Yeah.
I think of it almost like a train station.
Like if there's a bunch of energy there that might be partly why is that people maybe are, you know, the slower processors like myself.
(22:21):
Maybe, you know, we die somewhere else, but we're still sort of attached physically, energetically to my body like, hey, wait, I'll just, I might just get in the car with the body.
Cool.
Okay.
So we're going to.
All right.
So now we're at this place.
Just try to process it like, right?
What's going on?
Where do I go next?
I don't know that I really want to leave this body, but I obviously have to.
(22:44):
I don't know.
Maybe it's like a transitional place for some folks.
Yeah.
And people are just quite haven't crossed that bridge or gone through the light or whatever they're hanging out or, or what if it's, you know how sometimes people claim that other entities will come and guide them, spirit guides, family members, or if you pass over and these other entities are there to be with you.
(23:05):
Maybe those entities are still hanging around at the mortuary.
Like they've helped someone.
Maybe, yeah.
Help someone go to life.
They're waiting for someone to arrive.
I really don't know, though.
Who knows?
I'm just pulling ideas out of the air.
Well, that's really all we have.
Yeah.
Right?
Like it's all theory at this point, unless, I mean, maybe there are some people who know, know, but even their personal experiences, they only know for themselves.
(23:27):
Right.
What their experience was.
Right.
The potential is so vast.
So I don't know.
But I think it's an interesting question and I definitely have heard like you so many stories of people working in the funeral business who have lots of stories.
Yes.
Lots and lots.
So at this time during Linda Hazard's time, the 1900s, Seattle, like we talked about earlier was a rough and tumble port city.
(23:54):
And Mr. Butterworth and Sons handled many of the cities dead, including victims of crimes, accidents and diseases.
So it's not a huge leap to imagine why so many believe the building is haunted.
Tons of traumatic death as well as just your run of the mill.
That's a terrible lumber industry pun, but your run of the mill deaths.
(24:17):
I love it.
Add to the fact that some of Linda Hazard's victims were brought, processed there.
So the residual energy theoretically could be pretty desperate, feeling betrayed, alone, not understanding.
Yeah.
How did I get here?
How did I let this happen?
Well, how far is this what I was just looking at?
(24:38):
How far is a Lala from Seattle?
Well, as the crow flies nowadays, not super far, but is it back then?
But back then?
Oh my gosh.
That would have been a whole day's journey, right?
A couple days probably.
Oh gosh.
It's on the peninsula.
So it's across the Puget Sound.
There's nowhere closer she could have brought the bodies for processing or...
(25:00):
I think she had a special deal.
She just had that deal with them.
Yeah.
So she would take them all the way up.
By boat, I guess.
Wow.
That's a whole journey.
I'm looking at a map right now.
If you look up O'Lala to Seattle and imagine it in the before...
1900s.
Before the ferry system.
Yeah.
Like how would they...
That would have been a whole journey.
That's like the Oregon Trail journey.
(25:21):
With dead bodies in the back.
With dead bodies in the back.
That's wild.
And she probably had to do it herself because you couldn't entrust too many other people.
Oh my gosh.
And if she had to do it herself, then she probably would only make the trip so often.
So she'd probably like...
Store her up.
Store her up.
And I don't think she took very many at a time.
Like this wasn't like a sanitary full of people.
Like she would have a couple people at a time.
(25:43):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
As I understand it anyway.
So this place now houses...
The Butterworth Building now houses Kelz Irish Pub.
And employees and visitors have reported lots of paranormal activity to this day.
So objects moving on their own.
Disembodied voices.
Shadowy figures.
One of the most famous stories is my favorite.
Involves the apparition of a young girl seen on the pub's staircase.
(26:07):
Now, this is the paranormal experience that my husband and I have when we did this tour.
Oh, I'm excited.
So we had our cell phones and everybody did.
We're out on the sidewalk looking in on the backside of this building.
So where this famous staircase is where they frequently have seen this ghostly child.
So you're looking through these rounded glass windows into this building and there's a staircase on the left.
(26:31):
So we're all of course trying to take pictures with our phones to just for funsies.
It's at night time.
See if we can capture anything on our cameras.
Well, I'm not kidding.
Both of us go to hold up our phones and our phones just go completely dead.
Oh, that's such a wild phenomenon.
Not off.
Right.
Like we powered them off off and we could not get them to turn back on until we walked away and we got a couple of blocks away and then our phones turned back on.
(26:58):
That's wild.
And it happened to both of us at exactly the same time.
Yeah.
And I hear I've heard so, so, so, so, so many stories about the power drain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was cool.
And so people have wondered, could she be a victim tied to the building's mortuary days?
Here's another question for you.
What's your take on child apparitions?
(27:19):
Why do they seem to affect people more than other types of hauntings?
I don't know.
But I, I don't know why someone told me, you know, how I go on Facebook and I've been like engaging with people who like the same things we do.
Someone recently who told me they believe that when children continue to grow in the spirit world up to, I believe, they don't stay as babies or children.
(27:45):
You believe that?
So then if you're seeing a child ghost, you're just seeing them in that moment in time.
And if you came back 10 years later, they wouldn't be a child ghost anymore.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That's, that's, yeah, that is definitely an intersection of theories that doesn't add up.
Right.
I don't know why people see, claim to see child ghosts more often.
(28:09):
Maybe what we think are ghosts or whatever we're seeing is short in stature or smaller.
And that makes us think that it's a child.
Maybe when we catch like EVPs or weird voice phenomenon, it sounds like giggling or a child's voice, whatever it is, whatever we're hearing.
I don't, I really don't know.
(28:31):
Or maybe, I mean, there's, I've heard people have kind of a dark theory on it that sometimes it's because children are so non-threatening that other entities that might mean us harm, present as innocent children.
So that we trust them.
Like the trickster thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Also could be that just like in life, I think kids are much more attuned to the spirit world when they're little.
(28:57):
Maybe it's the same kind on the flip side, like they're more attuned to connecting to the human.
That's an interesting theory.
Yeah.
I don't know.
You make me think, you just reminded me for a second of the episode we did on the Black Eyed Kids, possibly being something really sinister that was pretending to be a kid.
I hadn't thought about that with kid ghosts, kid spirits.
(29:18):
I don't know.
I've never, I've never encountered a child like spirit like in a paranormal way, like giggling voices or like playing with a toy or the pitter-patter of little feet or anything like that.
I've never experienced that, but that's so, so common.
Right.
All of those things.
Okay.
So segment three.
So segment one, introduce you to Linda Hazard and her deal.
(29:39):
Okay.
Two, Butterworth building.
Three, paranormal experiences now at starvation heights and the Butterworth building.
When we talk about residual energy, like where it's like on repeat, unlike a recording.
Yes, heard of that too.
It's just happening over and over again.
It's impossible to ignore the trauma associated with Linda Hazard's story.
(30:02):
So we're going to start with her infamous sanitarium in Olala and what's going on to this day.
So locals and visitors to the wilderness height site, nicknamed starvation heights have reported some deeply unsettling phenomena.
People, and I totally want to go.
Is the building still there?
What's it look like?
I'm going to Google it.
Google it.
Yeah, you got to see.
But people say they hear faint cries or moans, which they believe could be echoes of the patients who suffered and died there.
(30:27):
Yeah.
The original buildings are gone.
So you may not find anything today, but you could see what it looked like in the past.
But the land itself seems to hold on to some memories according to visitors.
Okay.
A few ghost hunters who've explored the area reported sudden drops in temperature and explained feelings of dread and even the sound of footsteps crunching on gravel, despite being completely alone.
(30:53):
Yeesh.
Also, that land is going to have a lot of memories from indigenous people throughout his life.
Yeah.
Not just Linda Hazard and her patients like that land.
Washington State, Pacific Coastal Tribal Nations were all over and abundant and thriving until white settlers came in and devastated some things.
(31:22):
So some witnesses have also claimed to see, oh God, what I wouldn't give, to see the figure of a woman in a white dress pacing in the distance.
They wondered if that could be Linda herself, hopefully restless because of her crimes.
We should go there, Lin.
That's not really far from us.
Road trip.
But I can't tell on Google just in the minute I have here, if buildings are gone, is it just like a field, an overgrown field, or was something else put in its place?
(31:53):
When you Google starvation heights or wilderness heights, does anything come up on Google Maps?
It comes up like, oh, I'll do it on the map. On Google, it brings up like history that you're going over here.
I'm sure there's at least signage, I would hope.
I mean, for tourism alone, that seems to be foolish not to have at least a sign.
(32:14):
Do you know there's also a starvation heights in Oregon?
Really?
Yeah, that's coming up on the map before the Washington one.
Well, I hadn't heard that she had like a franchise.
Or maybe it was just another...
She like sold the rights to it.
Here, you can have a franchise.
Well, maybe at that time, I don't know, but people were like...
(32:37):
It might have been a trend.
It might have been a trend where people were like, you know, we have all kinds of weird health trends now, maybe at that time.
Always. We're always looking for a miracle cure.
Yeah.
So we don't have to work very hard and can preferably just pay for some money and have all of our problems solved.
I'm not having any like, Olala is not a big town.
No.
(32:58):
It's very small. There's not a lot there.
And I think that might have been part of the point.
Like she went somewhere very uninhabited.
Yeah.
That would be a fun trip to see if there's anything else.
Another one, this is a total tangent, but there...
What is it?
It's the...
(33:19):
I'm gonna Google it really quick.
There's an old mental health hospital.
It's not in operation anymore and hasn't been for quite some time.
It's a penitentiary...
That's the one I'm looking at.
Mental health hospital.
Is it Northwestern State?
(33:40):
State hospital?
Because of course we still have Western State Hospital.
But I think there's Northwestern State Hospital as well.
I feel like if you're ghost hunting at the old mental health hospitals,
you have more chance of seeing something just because we don't know if spirits are souls or if it's like residual energy.
(34:06):
Right.
I mean if it's even a phenomenon that is this, I don't know what I believe.
I'm gonna be clear about that.
Right.
I don't know if you're gonna be able to see this, but if it's souls of people,
you have a chance of hitting it there at a mental health hospital.
Just because we're highly populated, you know, folks, I mean on through there.
Right.
A lot of them would have gone through and would have passed away.
And if it's residual energy, a lot of people would have experienced a lot of negative energy.
(34:30):
So you have like...
I don't know if you're like betting, if you're a betting person,
you have a better chance of hitting something paranormal.
Hitting the jackpot, paranormal jackpot.
Yeah, your odds are much greater.
Yeah.
For sure.
And then you can see Drowooly, which is also not far from here.
Oh, we can go there.
It's not far.
And it's on the National Register of Historical Places located four miles northeast from the
(34:51):
city.
And you have to like hike into it from what I understand.
So it's a bit, it's closed, of course.
And there was a murder there.
There, lots of murders and lots of trauma.
And it was closed in 19...
Gosh, it was open pretty late.
(35:15):
1973?
1973.
It closed in 1973.
Or no, I'm sorry.
Golly.
19...
Oh, it's so hard to tell.
But I think it closed maybe in the 1950s, but in 19...
They kept making discoveries of things in the 70s and in the 80s.
(35:36):
And in 1995, it was revealed that by the United States Department of Energy that radiation
experiments were conducted on patients.
Oh my gosh.
They were iron 55, whatever that is, was injected into the veins of patients at 100 microcurie
dosages and monitored over a period of months.
Ooh.
I can, I don't know about you, but I get really creeped out when I think about the mental
(36:00):
health hospitals from hundreds of years ago as a woman.
As a woman.
Gosh.
Any time that I've just been extra cranky or non-compliant, I think of those times when
I'm like, wow, if I were here 150 years ago, my husband could just put me away and just
be like, she's hysterical.
(36:21):
Yep.
Just because I disagree or just because I'm, like I said, moody.
It's freak.
So they have like an extra layer of fear for me as a woman.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and I really like get, I stay up at night sometimes like just thinking about women
that did go through that and how sad that is.
And then to know that you just give up all your rights.
You've not like you have a lot of rights as a woman anyway, but you get there and like
(36:44):
they can do experiments on you.
They can take your hair.
They can do whatever they want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whatever they want.
Yep.
Anytime there's an oppressed group, a marginalized group, they historically become the victims
of experimentation.
They're the guinea pigs to learn how to help those who, to help oppressors.
(37:07):
So whether it's Jews and other victims of the concentration camps were experimented
on in horrendous, horrific, multitudes of ways or enslaved populations or even post-slavery
in, you know, Jim Crow era and onward for a long time and somewhat argue even still,
(37:28):
experimenting on black populations.
And then I have such just yicky feelings about all the things we learned medically through
that.
Like, yeah, some, some discoveries were made that are very beneficial to date, but at the
cost there.
Yes.
Yes.
(37:49):
It's awful.
It's awful.
There had to be a better way.
I mean, obviously there had to be a better way.
And yeah, it's, it's a really, really hard, deep, yucky minefield to get into of medical
discoveries and how we were able to further medicine through horrors against our fellow
(38:13):
human beings.
It's just awful yucky.
Yeah, hopefully the souls of the perpetrators are paying for it, I hope.
No, that's not very loving and forgiving of me, but F them.
I do not care.
Okay.
So shifting to the Butterworth building now.
(38:35):
So out on the land of the starvation heights, wilderness heights, whatever they might see,
potentially Linda herself with a soul of a wandering victim in white and then and sounds,
footsteps, et cetera, moans.
But then back at the pub, it has a reputation all its own, even without the connection to
(38:57):
Linda hazard.
So visitors to Kells, we got to go some time.
I thought about, I thought about this when we were going to record a couple of weeks
ago.
And I thought I was going to do this one.
We ended up splitting it into two parts and that episode we split it into two parts.
And so then I was like, Oh, I take, I want to take a man up and do Kells, just go get
a, get a beer.
You know, I don't drink beer, but go get a beer and have some fish and chips and hang
(39:19):
out in Seattle.
Maybe we can even wander a little bit, be like, well, we're going to the bathroom and
see if we can find some.
Somehow we end up locked in a basement somewhere.
Now it's an escape room.
One of the most chilling stories is of a figure that seems to follow people up and down the
staircase.
Some employees even claim they feel a hand on their back only the turnaround.
(39:41):
If I know one there, they see shadowy figures in the mirrors.
There's mirrors all over the place.
Oh, just in the mirror.
Yeah.
This one is hilarious to me.
There's also the young girl often seen near the staircase, that same girl that we tried
to photograph, or this cracks me up in the back corner of the pub.
So can you imagine, you're just like, who let that kid in?
We're just going to let that kid sit back there.
(40:04):
Okay.
I love it.
Some believe she's tied to the building's history as a mortuary, though her specific
connection remains a mystery.
And if I'm a ghost, an Irish pub is not the worst place to be connected to.
Also kids were probably allowed in pubs.
Oh yeah.
In previous, I'm right.
Like if you work there and you live upstairs and you've got 10 kids, you probably have to
(40:25):
go back.
And you're regulated as they are by laws and age restrictions now.
My kids are super stoked about going to Europe this summer when they can.
Like in Ireland, my son will turn 16 in Iceland this summer while we're there.
And I don't know what the drinking age is there, but I'm pretty sure it's probably not
21.
And then I know for sure when we're in Ireland and stuff, I'm sure he'll have little Guinness
(40:47):
or something.
My daughter will be 18.
So for sure, she could imbibe if she wants to, which I'm kind of hoping the mystery is
sucked out when your parents are right there going, yeah, go for it.
Here, we'll buy you a shot.
Right.
Let's see what happens, sis.
Well, my dad would let me drink with him when I was a little kid, but he, uh, it wasn't
like a lot.
(41:07):
He would have a beer every day when he came home from work, a rainier beer, talking about
Washington.
Classic.
Yeah.
And he, you remember those little Dixie cups that we had to brush our teeth to wash our
mouth out?
He would put in this, this teeny on the very bottom of the Dixie cup, a little bit of his
rainier beer.
And so I had a rainier beer all the time.
To toast the end of the day with dad.
Oh, we'd lay down and watch the news and yeah, that's cute.
(41:31):
That's actually cute.
Um, okay.
So we got that little girl.
I got, we got to go see if we can find that little girl.
Yeah.
Glasses fall off shelves, chairs shift when no one is near them and lights flicker unexpectedly.
Some might say it's just an old building.
Right.
It's an old building in Seattle, but it's still more fun, I think, to believe in the
panel.
Do you remember when we went out to eat and to coma?
(41:52):
It was like right when I first moved here, I was about to move here.
We went out to eat in to coma at the melting pot or spaghetti factory or something.
Okay.
And a glass fell off the counter and the bar and you saw it.
And when the waitress came over, you were like, did you see that glass just fall off
the table?
You don't remember this?
I have no memory of this.
(42:13):
And the waitress was like, oh yeah, that happens sometimes.
We think we have like a ghost or a spirit.
I have no memory of that.
Yeah.
This happens to me all the time.
That's wild.
I think I have all cybers.
I'm gonna get some video.
This happens to me all the time.
People will show me pictures of me at places, not in the distant.
I'm talking in the last 10, 15 years.
They'll show me a picture of me at like, um, Kathy Griffin comedy show.
(42:35):
I have no memory of it.
And that was like, let's see, that would have been about 14 years ago.
But I have a theory that we cannot hold every day every moment in our head.
I think we chew like something about that moment in time.
I remember it got siphoned out wild for me or something.
I don't know.
It just stuck into memory, but for you, maybe, maybe you'd seen it before.
(42:58):
I just, I might have just been so excited that you'd move back here.
That was my focus more than anything else.
Screw that glass.
Fly it off.
Uh, oh man.
Okay.
So they also get recorded EVPs and you can get these online.
You can find some for recorded at Kells.
Fake voices saying things like help or why?
But it's just the one word.
(43:19):
That's what I said to our, I know with my whole face.
Yeah.
Cause you have like two whole sentences.
I'm sorry.
I'm so, so sorry.
I forgive you.
Like I've said it in that space.
I've said it a couple of times, like whatever I forgive you, forgive yourself.
Whatever it was, it's okay.
Um, one investigator, paranormal investigator mentioned this person sounds a bit like a
(43:41):
drama, dramatic person, but feeling overwhelmed with nausea and weakness in the
Butterworth basement.
We gotta get to the basement.
I want to go to the, it's always the basement.
I was just reading, I don't know.
Basements and addicts, man.
I'm just reading about the Sally house today.
Sally house is super famous.
Oh, it's super famous.
Oh my gosh.
Is it in Washington?
No.
Um, I'm sure.
Sally house?
(44:01):
The Sally house.
Yeah.
Like crazy paranormal stuff happened in the, in the, I think it's in the Midwest, but
okay, that's another story.
But anyway, it's very famous for paranormal activity and the basements, like the most,
where they get the most activity.
Is it because that's where not a lot's happening?
Like the hub of the home is usually the main floor, whatever the main floor is, where the
(44:22):
kitchen, living room, dining room is.
And that's where everybody's chilling most 90% of the time in a house.
Addicts and basements are typically used for storage or occasional use.
And so if I'm a ghost and I want to be left the H alone, I'm going to
cause it in the basement, yeah, I guess my own room.
I guess.
I don't know.
There's a space that isn't invaded by all the other people you don't know.
(44:46):
Speaking of like other houses like that, I just heard today, very brief encounter on
Reels, maybe on Facebook, that the conjuring house is being closed to the public.
Have you heard that?
No.
Why would they close it?
They don't know.
I just saw that it's been closed for good to the public and it's for the best is what
it said. So I need to look into this.
(45:07):
Oh my gosh.
It also sounds a little bit like a great plug for more tourism.
Right.
It does.
Or it's other movies.
Get there while you can.
Okay, so let's see.
These stories make me think a lot about like just, well, abusive humanity and how you can
capitalize on that is one thing, but not that I plan to, but just saying like that is something
(45:32):
that is throughout history. How can I capitalize on someone else's pain and suffering rather than
just helping like just fine. Did she, did doctor quote unquote hazard really think that what she
had was a cure for what ails people or did she know from jump like these morons will fall for
(45:53):
anything.
She had to know because as soon as she was really a scientist, if she was really had gotten her
doctor degree for real and gone through like training and the scientific method, she would
have recognized would have been looking at her data constantly and recognizing she's not getting
the results from the treatment that she's prescribing, which means you need a new intervention,
(46:14):
you need a new prescription, but she continued to prescribe the starvation and same thing,
getting the same result each time. Absolutely. This is when you become a murderer.
Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe it started out innocently. Like she was a natural path of her time and really
thought, I mean, they did bloodletting, right? They were still in the air of bloodletting.
(46:37):
So, and maybe it was along those lines of like, we just need to purge the body of toxins. Well,
what's one easy way to do that? Don't give it anything to start with. So, yeah, we just purge
whatever's in there and then the body, I don't know, the body will just heal itself from the
inside out. We just, this is not how it works. So, maybe it started out innocently. I mean,
(46:57):
do we have any stories of people who went to her facility for treatment and recovered?
Recovered and better? No. Every single one who went there went to die. I don't think there were a lot,
but yeah. Oh, gosh. There might have been an escapee, but it's not coming to mind. But I don't,
I don't know if I'm an escapee. I mean, someone would be like, but remember folks, this is not an
educational podcast unless you educate us. So, there's probably people listening right away. Oh,
(47:21):
my God, my great-grandmother escaped from Sarvation Heights. There's an entire documentary
series about her on PBS. How do you not know? Our podcast is literally like 45 minutes every week
of us doing swandering. What is this? Welcome to the Wondering Zone. We don't know anything. We don't
know, but it's fascinating to wonder. Yeah, so, yeah, it sucks for those people big time, but there
(47:47):
are some really, really great books about Linda Hazard. There's one called Sarvation Heights.
I owned it at one time. I don't know if I still do. Yeah. I want to be a ghost tenor exploring that
land for sure. We got to take a road trip and then we got to go to Kells. Maybe we could do both.
Like, I don't know if it's possible to go up. Ah, flinch. Take a ferry over. Yeah. Wander around.
(48:11):
Come back. Come back and share our experience on the podcast. I don't think anybody would want to
even hear that. What if nothing happens? It could just be a mini-soad. A mini episode.
That's all I got for today. It was just a little bit about Linda Hazard and Starvation Heights.
That's great. Yeah. I didn't know any of that. I really didn't. And at that time, like as a chubby
(48:37):
woman, I very easily would have been like, sounds great. Sign me up. Sign me up. I can't starve
myself on my own. I need somebody to beat it into me. Take my money. Oh my God. That's just terrible.
I'm learning to love myself. One Reese's peanut butter cup at a time. All right. Well, I love it.
(48:58):
Class dismissed. Don't open the door unless it's to the basement because basements are awesome.
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