October 30, 2023 • 40 mins
Curious about making a meaningful career change? Join me in this episode as I host Claire Carroll, an executive and career coach who sheds light on portfolio careers.
Claire illuminates the crucial role of personal values in career transitions, how societal expectations can shape our decisions, and the courage required in taking risks. Our discussion delves deeper into the concept of 'leaning out' versus 'leaning in', demonstrating how brave choices can lead to fulfilling rewards.
Drawing from inspiring real-life accounts of individuals who have bravely switched careers to make a global impact, we highlight the importance of creating a personal narrative to stay focused amidst societal pressure and the fear of failure.
We wrap up this discussion by providing practical tips to deal with the common stumbling blocks of career transitions - setting realistic goals, managing comparison, and overcoming impostor syndrome. We concentrate on the importance of appreciating 'done is better than perfect', focusing on your unique knowledge and expertise.
Find out more about Claire:
https://www.clairecarroll-coaching.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/claireacarroll
ABOUT ME - AYESHA MURRAY
I'm an accredited career coach with over 20 years experience in the corporate world. Having experienced the working parent juggle first hand, I now coach people through their career and life challenges.
WORK WITH ME
I'm here to give you the confidence, self-belief and support to help you design a life that works for you and your family. Through tried and tested approaches, tools and methodologies, you'll leave the coaching process with clear direction, motivation and energy.
If you'd like to find out more about how coaching could work for you, book a free 30 min call at https://calendly.com/ayeshamurraycoaching/discovery-call
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The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this podcast belong solely to the host and guest speakers. Please conduct your own due diligence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ayesha Murray (00:02):
Welcome to the Parent Equation podcast with me,
aisha Murray.
This podcast series is full ofinspiring stories from working
parents who are passionate aboutdesigning a life that works for
them and their families Workingparents like you who want a
purposeful, rewarding careeralongside a balanced family life
.
So today on the Parent Equationpodcast, I'm joined by Claire
(00:28):
Carroll.
Claire is an executive andcareer coach helping mid-career
professionals, and we're goingto talk today about portfolio
careers.
So welcome, claire.
Thanks, aisha, great to be here.
Claire Carroll (00:38):
Delighted to chat to you today.
Ayesha Murray (00:39):
It's great to have you and this new season of
portfolio careers and, obviously, hearing your views on that
from your perspective, becauseyou, I believe, have a kind of
psychology background.
That's right.
Yeah, so we'll come at it as adifferent angle, potentially.
And when I've been thinkingabout this portfolio career
journey, I suppose that many ofus go on or want to go on.
It seems to me there's the kindof the why period is why I
(01:00):
actually want this for myself,the motivations behind it.
Then the what is what am Iactually going to do as a
portfolio career?
What are the options availableto me?
And then the how, which isputting it into practice and
creating an action plan aroundthat.
So I think, given yourbackground and we've talked
before about values, obviously,people's motivations and
behaviors, et cetera howimportant, well, they are
(01:20):
important.
How important do you thinkvalues are in this portfolio
career journey?
Claire Carroll (01:26):
I would say critical and I'd say the driving
force behind why people decideto make big changes to their
careers and have a portfoliocareer.
So perhaps you should take astep back and define what values
are.
So, how I see values are theirfundamental beliefs and
principles that help us guidethe choices that we make, things
(01:49):
that we think, things that wedo, things that we believe, and
they're pretty deeply heldconvictions that we have.
They are generally very stablethroughout life, although they
do fluctuate, and I like tothink about as dialing up in
priority and dialing downdepending on what life stage
that we're at and what kind ofresponsibilities are things that
(02:09):
are happening in our life.
So, essentially, values reflectwhat are important to us and,
to this point, when people arelooking at something as
fundamental as what we're doingfor work because we spend the
majority of our waking hours inwork often and, if we're working
(02:31):
with other people, more hourswith them than we do with our
loved ones sometimes and socertainly being as fulfilled and
satisfied in work as possiblecan have a huge halo effect on
the other areas of our life andthings are going well in work,
we feel good in other areas ofour life and we're not so good.
They can reflect back and weall know people coming home to
(02:53):
the household, be they flatmates, partners, siblings, parents
can be tough when someone hashad a tough day at work or
ongoing tough day.
So some people decide they wantto make a fundamental shift in
career and these days I guesswe're living longer and we are
having longer careers andthankfully society's attitudes
(03:16):
towards older folks has becomemore positive here in the in the
West and there's always beenrespect, I feel, for older folks
and wisdom, experience, thecontributions that older folks
make to society, which I loveand I'm really glad to see that
kind of increasing here in theWest in general.
(03:36):
And it's not surprising to seepeople in their 60s and their
70s and even in their 80s whohave a wealth of experience and
wisdom and knowledge to shareand still working in some
capacity, perhaps in a differentway, perhaps more in a
lecturing or mentoring or, youknow, speaking way, but also
(03:56):
leading companies or signing uptheir own thing, and so I feel
what's behind this arefundamental values.
So someone, for example, hasbeen working in a corporate
environment for 10, 15, 20 years.
They might have had a lot ofstimulation, a lot of challenge
(04:17):
a lot of change, feel that theyhave learned a lot, but they
might come to a point wherethey're like Do you know what
this?
I've kind of reached my levelnow and I could stay here and do
this for another 20 years, butactually there's a niggle of
dissatisfaction or a huge urgeto change and I'm feeling that I
(04:39):
can't possibly show up onlineor in the office on Monday
morning to do this again.
I will scream, and that's whenI find people can start
listening or start tuning intowhat's what's not happening in
my work life, that I need to behappening and often, as you will
know, as a coach, I said if wedo a values exercise with
(05:01):
someone like us, we realize thata value of theirs is not being
expressed or it's beenrestricted in some way, or they
just don't have the ability totap into a value of theirs.
That's important.
Ayesha Murray (05:15):
And that value.
Actually, I think an example Ihad the other day with a client
was family obviously really highon the list of values.
Actually, I think, when hetalked about transitions, that
transition to being a new parentchanges those values.
Or, as you say, maybe thedialing up or dialing down
changes because we havedifferent priorities, different
perspective on life and then ourvalues are therefore different.
I know I had that, incredibly,my kids were born.
(05:38):
So if you're, if you suddenlyhave a new value of real family
and connection with family andchildren and etc.
And you're working a 70 hourweek, then you've automatically
you automatically drivingagainst that core value of yours
and you're going to feel so,you're going to feel that
anxiety and you're going tobring anxiety home with you and
(05:58):
then it's going to spill outinto more areas of your life
than you want and it's notcontained anymore within that
work bubble.
It starts to spill intodifferent areas and I think
that's I say when it becomesthat niggler.
This has satisfaction is howquickly should one act on that
niggle, yeah, as opposed towaiting for that point where I
think I've now, I've had it upto here and I need to do
(06:19):
something drastic.
Claire Carroll (06:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah .
And so I I would say, alwayslisten to the niggles and try to
voice them, be they niggles inyour knee or your hip or your
elbow, or niggles in your mindabout what's happening for you
in work, talking to someoneabout it, perhaps finding
(06:43):
someone who's in a similarsituation to use similar stage
or someone who's further downthe track than you are, and
regardless of age, I think it'smore about you know stage, work
stage or family stage.
In that instance and certainlyI have found which has
encouraged me as well A lot ofthe male clients that I have who
have become parents are alsotalking about work life balance
(07:04):
and also trying to figure outhow can they be there to support
their kids and to have a moreequal workload in the household.
And they, particularly the oneswho are in their thirties,
really seem some of them reallyseem to have quite a strong
sense of responsibility andunderstanding that they are a
parent as much as the mother is,and that does really encourage
(07:26):
me and that is a big shift and abig change.
And they are trying to figureout how can they get more
non-work hours back in theirlife in order to do the things
that they want to do and also,which I like as well, and I feel
women can learn from men inthis regard, is that they want
to find time for their interestsand their passions.
(07:46):
So maybe they like swimming,maybe they like running, maybe
they're interested in art.
How can they carve out theprecious one or two hours of
adult me time in a week to dothe thing for them?
And certainly when I'm talkingto female clients who talk a lot
about work life balance andfamily responsibilities, trying
to carve out those couple ofhours for yourself and your own
(08:07):
interests.
And again coming back to valuesthat can allow a value of
creativity to be exist or avalue of learning, of self
development, of independence andautonomy, because it's
important to feel like an adultwoman or an adult man, not just
a mum and a housekeeper and anemployee or employer.
Ayesha Murray (08:31):
Yeah, I think that's where the portfolio
career opportunities come in.
I guess is that, again, itdoesn't have to be a drastic,
not a change of career, becauseportfolio implies there are
multiple things happening.
So we're not talking about acareer change per se, but about
bringing other things in tocomplement, I guess, what you
are.
You still have what you've donefor 20 years or whatever it is.
(08:51):
And to your point about a valueof creativity or value of
independence, I suppose thenwould you agree that, if you
have, you could potentiallyreduce hours in your normal job,
let's say, and introducesomething else into your week
that then taps into that valuethat you desire, even if perhaps
your main role or career isn'tquite sick in those boxes.
Claire Carroll (09:14):
Yeah, exactly so .
Portfolio career to me generallyimplies a mix and a blend of
employed roles so thetraditional, normal nine to five
or whatever the hours are andsomething freelance and or kind
of a side protector, side hustle, as Americans like to describe
it.
And so generally people arereducing hours in the employed
(09:38):
part to enable them to dosomething more freelance, and
often the first place thatpeople start is teaching
something or mentoring orgetting involved in conveying
the information and experiencethat they built up to others.
So it could be your hobby, yoursailing or football or art or
(09:59):
music and you start maybe withina local club with coaching or
doing private lessons, or we'redoing something online or
getting involved in a schoolsort of local educational
institution, and it can be anice first step and a nice
transition because you'realready working on an area
(10:21):
that's a passion for you andthat you've got deep and
extensive knowledge, so you feelquite competent in that area
and it's a nice easy step out.
Some people can, as you say,make big changes, and I think
there are two things that havekind of enabled this.
(10:41):
One is technologicaladvancements, so that idea of
being a digital nomad where, ifyou have no caring
responsibilities at home.
You can up and leave and moveto Indonesia or Australia or.
Ayesha Murray (10:56):
That sounds marvellous, never mind about the
kids.
Claire Carroll (11:00):
With your laptop and do the thing that you love
online.
Some people might do graphicdesign or might do digital
marketing or communications andcontinue the work that they have
based at home, but just in adifferent location.
I think the other piece thathas underpinned it are societal
expectations or beliefs aroundwhat's kind of good or correct
(11:25):
or acceptable.
Terrible when we are subject toother people's opinions, but it
is a real force that can impacthow people make their decisions
, and the idea of a stable nineto five job that you stay in for
50 years is no longer the onlypath that you can take in your
career, and there's a much more.
We can see more examples aroundus of acquaintances, friends
(11:47):
and family or former colleagueswho have either changed location
or stayed, but stepped out of aregular nine to five type role
and stepped into somethingthat's more fluid.
Ayesha Murray (12:00):
Yeah, and I think it's finding the catalyst,
isn't it?
So if you are, if you're feelingconfident and grounded in your
values and confident in thedecisions that you make, which
not all of us are it's a hardplace to get to sometimes then
maybe we can say I want to trythis, I'm going to confidently
try this, I'm going to workalongside this and things sort
(12:20):
of work out for you, but forothers my guest in this season,
lee, who is a portfolio careerparent, if you like redundancy
is one of the first things quitea while ago now that spurred
him into action to think aboutokay, I need to future-proof my
career because redundanciesmight happen again in the future
.
What does that mean for mycareer?
So he took that catalyst towork out what he could do
(12:44):
alongside his normal career role, if you like, and ended up
being personal trainer and doingall those things.
So I suppose the catalyst tothat career not diversion, what
you call it, but things changingif you haven't got that
catalyst like redundancy, howcan you start to think about
what might work for you?
Claire Carroll (13:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I guess it's back to levels offulfilment and satisfaction and
what you're currently doing inyour role.
And I often find when I bringthe perspective to folks and I
ask them, how long more will yoube working, and they kind of go
wow, I've been working for 15years and I'm going to be
working for another 25 or 30.
Suddenly, that extent of timerolling out in front of them
(13:30):
either inspires them and go God,this is really exciting.
I can try something and maybe Ineed to take a dip in income, I
need to figure out thatfinancial piece, but I'm excited
about trying to build andfeeling that I regret more the
things that I don't do ratherthan things that I do do.
Or people get a shock and afright and go oh my God, I've a
(13:54):
whole 30 years, 35 years out ofme.
I can't possibly stay in thething that I'm in now and do
that for longer than I'vealready been doing it.
So there can be a kind of apositive feeling that can spur
you into action and at leastplanning or imagining what you
could do differently, or anegative feeling.
Ideally we don't want to dwellin too much right, because
(14:14):
negative feelings motivating usto do stuff tend to impact our
decision making in a not sogreat way.
But to think, ok, turn that, 30years still to go into a right.
This is an opportunity, not ascary thing.
And I often ask people as wellhow many hours do you spend in
(14:34):
work and how many hours leftover do you have?
And when they really realizewe're spending the majority of
our waking hours in work, that'swhen they think, yeah, I
deserve it.
I owe it to myself to try tobring in the things that I am
more interested by or thatfulfilled me more in work to it,
and not to say that work needsto be your lifestyle.
It's perfectly acceptable to doa job that keeps you moderately
(14:59):
happy or satisfied and spendmore of the time in the things
that you love outside of work,but upping the moments where you
feel excuse me energized andthat you're making a positive
contribution and that you'releading towards some sort of
greater goal or greatercontribution to society or thing
(15:20):
generally means that we arehappier.
Yeah, I mean, there's a knife.
Ayesha Murray (15:25):
Overall, yeah, and I think there's this not a
sticker, necessarily, but a viewthat if you decide to have a
portfolio career and again, Isuppose a portfolio career
aren't words that we wouldnormally use outside of the
coaching environment, but ofadding something new, varied, et
cetera then are we saying thenyou want to.
(15:45):
You're not as ambitious, forexample, or you want to reduce
your working hours in yourcareer because you're not as
ambitious and you might want todo something a bit quiet on the
side.
So does it feel like you canstill be ambitious, you can
still want to drive your careerforward with a portfolio career
option?
Claire Carroll (16:03):
Yeah, I absolutely believe that.
I absolutely believe thatbecause I think it's a really
brave thing to do.
It's really brave to leave astable work environment where
you've built up the wealth ofexperience and knowledge and
contacts and to go out and dosomething very different, or
even to reduce down your timeand that and go out and try
(16:24):
something different.
And I think the majority ofpeople actually look at other
folks and think, wow, that'sbrave Perhaps a change of envy
or jealousy, but I really thinkit's so brave and I think it's
people plowing their own furrow.
I would say over here, you knowmaking your own path in life
and being very confident inwhat's good for you, those
(16:46):
around you.
You know to go ahead and do it.
And funny, you mentioned aboutyour guest who was spurred on by
redundancy situation.
So in my own case, I set up mycoaching practice following a
redundancy from a tech companythat I chose.
I took some time off and Iremember talking to friends then
(17:06):
saying, oh, I think you know,rather than leaning in like
Cheryl Sandberg says, I think Iwant to lean out.
I'm just going to set up my ownthing.
And remember them looking at mesetting up your own business.
You're labelling that asleaning out, Like, are you nuts?
I was like, yeah, that's true,that is being brave and taking a
punt on myself and saying,right, I'm going to set goals
(17:27):
and in three months I want thisto happen, in six months I want
this to happen.
This is the hard line, you knoweither these things are
happening or it's not workingout.
So I change and I think ofsomething different, and for me
personally, stability andsecurity are massive values of
mine.
Yet I was stepping out of a verywell paid, high flying tech
role and not looking for anotherone, but going and doing my own
(17:49):
thing.
I'm not in a financialsituation, but it allowed my
values of autonomy, a workbalance and that entrepreneurial
spirit that I always wondered.
Would I ever be able to setfree a little bit?
And you know kind of, I guess,a challenge.
I do like a good levelchallenge and intellectual
stimulation.
So there were a whole set ofskills and things that I needed
(18:11):
to learn in setting these up andI found that those really,
really energized me.
It was great and I'd always I'dalways love coaching, mentoring
, managing people.
That was the thing that reallyenergized me at the end of the
day and I've had literallyhundreds of career conversations
with folks and teams that I'vemanaged over the years and I
always ask them when you shutdown your laptop at the end of
(18:34):
the day and it's been a good dayand you think to yourself I've
killed it and what's the thingthat's happened, and I finally
took my own advice and said tohim for myself I was like
helping other people figure outtheir career paths, that's what
I love.
I don't know if it sounds likethe most exciting thing, but it
is really what I love.
So I said I'd go for it and tryit and thankfully it's working
(18:54):
out so far.
So but that's I mean I waslucky in that I had people
around me, friends and family,who were supportive.
And, on a pragmatic front,there's a strong kind of local
office, local enterprise officenetwork here in Ireland where
you can go to get businessadvice, you know, to figure out
what grants are available, tounderstand how to run a business
(19:17):
.
Because I would say, for folksconsidering your portfolio
career, if you want to go outand set up as a civil trader or
as a company on your own, youmight have a lot of skills and
experience in the thing itself,be that art, music, business,
mentoring, whatever it is.
But running a business is avery different set of skills and
(19:38):
it does take quite a bit oftime and, at the end of the day,
we need to earn money to payour bills, which are ever
increasing due to the crisis,because of living crisis.
So that's an important thing tothink about.
So I think when, if someone isreviewing their values and
thinking, if I'm going to have aportfolio career, what values
(20:00):
will my portfolio career allowme to express or fulfill that
aren't being fulfilled right now, I think it's sensible to check
those values that maybe willnot be fulfilled or maybe will
be contradicting.
For example in Mike's or otherfolks case, that I know the
security and stability.
Like, how am I plugging back up?
I love teamwork, I lovecollaborating, it's really best.
(20:24):
But as a solo business owner,how do I, you know, bring in
acquaintances, colleagues, youknow I have a supervisor and so
on, but how do I build some sortof team around me or networks
of people to tap into so that Idon't feel I'm sitting alone in
my bedroom?
It's very bedroom gone crazy.
Ayesha Murray (20:45):
Yeah, interestingly that's funny
because you mentioned that andI've never thought about it till
just now Is that my career iscurrently I suppose you could
say, portfolio, because coach byday, podcast host by night, for
example, are two differentstrings on the same kind of bow
but different, you know,different parts I'm taking with
the most.
But actually to your pointabout the values I'm meeting
(21:08):
through that and I'm hugely.
My connection is a huge valuefor me.
I love being with people.
I hate being on my own.
I can't bear it.
Board my own company in aboutthree minutes.
So actually I was suffering, asyou have just said, from being a
solo business owner in thespare room.
Yes, connection throughcoaching clients, all through,
(21:28):
you know, through screens, butactually the podcast then has
given me a real sense ofconnection with people and a
real way to expand my networkand talk to people on a very
different level.
So that's then ticking thatvalue box of connection which I
used to have when I was in abusy office, busy, busy office.
So it's interesting I don'tthink I'd actually thought about
it that way that evensubconsciously I was taking
(21:50):
myself down a path to find thatvalue or to have that value,
have that value met somehow.
Claire Carroll (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah , interesting yeah.
Ayesha Murray (22:01):
Just think about what you said about taking a
punt on yourself.
Yeah, I think that's such avaluable statement, especially
given we come to working parentsand often working moms that we
talk to quite a lot where yourconfidence can take quite a hit
or quite a knock from a careerpoint of view when you get back
to work on having kids, andthere's a lot of people saying,
(22:21):
you know, am I still valuable atwork?
I haven't got anything to offer.
All these kind of self doubtcan creep in quite easily in
those first stages, certainly,of motherhood and parenthood.
So, actually just having theconfidence to take to actually
back yourself for once, to putyourself first which often we
don't do and say, actually thisis what I want and I believe I
(22:41):
can do it.
So I think even value decide isjust having that strength of
character.
Yeah, to say that you're as youdid, put yourself first and
back yourself.
Claire Carroll (22:52):
Yeah, and I think think about your, your why
, why are you doing it?
You know, and in those momentswhere it's tough, step back and
think, okay, what's the biggerpicture?
What's the 5000 meter view?
Am I doing what I'm doing?
And for me it was genuinelyabout helping people.
I often hesitate to say that Ilied because it sounds twee or
unoriginal, but it is.
(23:14):
It's the thing that's always.
You know, that's always kind ofenergised me or made me feel
fulfilled and work.
But I can think of other people,like two women in particular.
I'm thinking you just reallywanted to change the world.
And one is someone that I wentto school with, had worked in
(23:35):
office as an office manager,went back retrained in finance,
got into stockbroking and wealthmanagement to senior leadership
level, then left, took sometime out and founded a company,
got into MedTech.
She's EO and it's a.
It's in the medical devicebracket.
(23:57):
So it's a shield that measuresbreastfeeding, the volume of
breast milk that comes,particularly for premature or
sick babies, because breast milk, you know, the most nutritious
and healthy substance that anewborn can have.
But measuring the quantity forsick babies is is super
important.
So it's painted, it's goingthrough clinical trials, it is a
(24:20):
truly global effort.
It's an amazing company.
It's gone through really greatfundraising rounds and is set to
go to market soon.
It's been a six year journeymaybe.
So huge amount of bravery, ofsacrifice, of skill learning, of
connecting, of flying aroundthe world, you know, getting
(24:41):
involved in clinical trials withher two business partners and
it's it's so admirable and it'sso admirable to see, you know,
someone making a huge leap fromsomething wealth management,
wealth creation through tosomething that is health and for
small children and for, youknow, helping families in a very
vulnerable and scary situation.
(25:04):
I can think of someone else whowas kind of in sustainability in
a campaign director role, thenwent back and did a full time
master's, actually in LSE andLondon School of Economics and
then did a centre at the UNdoing peace building fascinating
.
Dabbled in journalism.
Then lived in the States for awhile and got into retail, in
(25:27):
sales, you know, in an apparelcompany, and now has founded her
own company which is a techplatform connecting parents with
childcare options, be theynannies, au pairs, crashes,
whatever in a local area, butbased on values.
So often we choose ourchildminders based on
(25:48):
availability and cost and wekind of forget about our really
important these thinking throughwhat our parenting philosophy,
how do we want to raise our kids?
You know what kind of style arewe using?
So she matches minders based onsimilar philosophies and
similar values, which I think isamazing.
And also companies can kind ofonboard in this platform so that
(26:08):
they are subsidising or fullyfunding the cost of childcare
for parents.
It's in a bid to a tackle thegender pay gap because, you know
, more women are dropping out oftheir work due to caring
responsibilities for familiesand be like.
I love how Kate articulates it.
Here in Ireland the governmentfund has a bike, bike to work
(26:30):
scheme so you can buy a bike taxfree.
So it's 50% off, essentially toget yourself to work on a
bicycle.
It's environmentally friendly,it's good for health, that's
good for the nation, it cutsdown on traffic jams and so on
and so forth.
The next big barrier to peoplegetting to work in a healthy,
sustainable and more stress freeway is childcare that's
(26:50):
available and you've got abackup plan and even a backup
plan to the backup plan.
So that's the philosophy she'scoming up with with the platform
.
So I love in those two examplesof happen to be women who have
been working in very differentareas and then just decided to
know what I'm going to try andchange the world Like.
Literally try and change theworld in an international sense
with a product or a platformthat's going to really make a
(27:13):
difference.
That's, I think, very genuineexamples of very big extreme
examples of portfolio careers.
Ayesha Murray (27:20):
Yeah, and both those examples that experimented
, haven't they what you'resaying?
They've tried various differentthings.
It's not just sort of makingone decision and then saying
this is it, now I've got afollow, this path, add in for an
item.
It's actually just being opento exploring possibilities and
changing your mind.
I'm saying, do you know what?
This one's not quite workingfor me, or it's not quite
aligned to my values or myincome needs or my flexibility
(27:43):
is whatever it might be, so I'mgoing to try something else.
The second example you gavesounds like she's tried multiple
things before then findingherself on this current path.
Claire Carroll (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah.
No, it can be very inspiring tohear about these stories and I
think as well, something thatcan hold us back in many areas
is that fear of failure or thatfear of what might others think.
The fear of failure is a realunpowerful force and we can
think through all the reasonsthat it might not work out or
(28:13):
won't work out and what mightpeople think.
They might laugh or might thinkI'm silly, or might think who
does she think she is?
Of course that wasn't going towork and it does take bravery
and pragmatic things likeplanning and assessing and
creating the narrative foryourself and for other people to
maybe keep them at bay.
You know, keep the naysayers atarm's length and say you know,
(28:37):
I'm trying this, things aregoing really well.
You don't need to get into thedetails.
You know, not everyone isprivileged to have access to the
information that you have.
You know, keep it to thesmaller circle so that you're
not allowing the cynics in andto see negatively.
And I think it is sensible to bestepping out of a paid employee
(29:00):
position into something you'restarting up yourself, or if it's
reducing errors and taking onsomething freelance or some sort
of side project.
It is sensible to have goalsand to think about.
You know how am I going toassess whether I'm doing well
and keeping the goals achievablewith a little bit of stretch?
Because confidence comes fromexperience and from doing, and
(29:21):
when you're doing and youachieve what you set out to do,
you get that kick of dopamine,that kick of serotonin.
You know that pride and thathappiness and that boost of
confidence thinking oh, I can dothis, this is going okay.
And now if you're four goalsthat you write down to maybe you
hit and to you don't, butyou're halfway there, that's
also positive.
Nobody gets 100% the first time, I know you're sending yourself
(29:48):
a profile.
So I think, keeping itrealistic, and I think also as
life unfolds, we realize nowoften 80% is good enough.
Yeah, yeah, it's better thanperfect.
As a mantra that Facebook nowmet, I have around the place and
I love it done is better thanperfect, and I think,
particularly for anyonelistening or anyone who's a
parent, we can certainly relateto that.
(30:11):
You know it doesn't matter ifthe house is a bit messy.
I know it feels like it matters.
Maybe we like that sense ofcontrol.
It wasn't actually matter, youknow.
Ayesha Murray (30:20):
And what about when you put alongside that so
that's your own, in your owncontrol, if you like is your
goals.
You're trying to not to be aperfectionist, all of kind of
things, but I found the biggeststruggle for me and still is
four years into having thisbusiness is comparing myself to
others, so trying something new.
You've got the naysayers,obviously, which you can, as you
(30:41):
say, try and keep it bay.
Yeah, then you've also got yourown tendency, especially in
this social media, instagramworld we live in, to compare
yourself against someone elsewho's doing something similar.
So as soon as you mentionedthose two examples of these
women changing the world, myinitial reaction was oh my gosh,
I'm not changing the world so,straight away.
There's a feeling of you know,why are I doing as well as they
(31:03):
are?
Why am I achieving more thanthey are?
Why am I changing things morefundamentally for this world we
live in than just my little bit?
And that's, I think, justnatural human nature to do that.
But how do we manage that?
So it doesn't get in our way.
Claire Carroll (31:21):
Yeah, it's a difficult one and I don't think
there is a magic solution thatcan work overnight.
I think it's probably a moremidterm thing for us to work on
our thoughts and our beliefs.
What's the phrase?
Comparison is the thief of joy,Is that correct?
Yeah, social media is the worstthing and the best thing in the
(31:42):
world.
I know that I can certainly getin a trap of doom scrolling.
I think it's called and I can'tstop.
And I know it's a neurological,physiological thing, whatever
the neurotransmitters floatingaround my body are getting left
open for me and it's terribleand I need to leave my phone
outside of my bedroom or knockit on at all and delete the apps
(32:04):
even for a week, because it isthat comparison.
So what I do know, and what Icoach and what I try to take my
own advice on, is we are alwayscomparing our behind scenes
reels every thought, every doubt, every possibility, every
imagined future that we'vethought through, everything that
(32:25):
we could or should do.
We're comparing all of that toa sizzle reel of someone else,
the highlights and the verynicely edited social media
highlights, and you just don'thave access to the doubts and
the mistakes and the failures,although these days there
certainly is more of a tendencyfor people to admit mistakes and
(32:45):
failures than to kind of go,hey, it's okay, this is how I
learned, but there's stillglossy and nicely presented and
nicely edited and, yes,everything worked out amazing in
the end, like things don'talways work out after mistakes
or failures, but we don't hearit.
So we start to think that theonly outcomes are positive for
(33:07):
other people.
So why is that happening to me?
I think we need to bear in mindwe don't have a full data set.
We only have a part of thelight.
We're looking through a keyholeand only seeing a small part of
the picture, not the full thing.
So I think that's first andalso so when I used to work in
Google, I did for 10 years acompany full of very bright
(33:28):
people, a lot of side projectsand things, olympic medals here
and businesses there andwhatever like crazy amounts of
overachievement and I suffered alot from imposter syndrome when
I joined and, gosh, what do Ihave to offer?
But I was like, no, I was hired.
I was hired for a reason.
The reason was I was ex-adagency.
(33:50):
I was in the Google ads part.
We were trying to encourageclients to invest more of their
digital marketing budget intoGoogle search and YouTube, and I
had planned and bought TV spaceand radio space and press space
for years.
So I had access to who wasmaking the decision, how are
decisions actually made and when.
So that was the reason I washired.
(34:11):
Not because I knew a lot aboutsearch market and search
advertising I didn't.
Or YouTube advertising becauseI didn't.
So I just kept pulling my mindback to there is a reason and
there you know, you knowsomething that others don't.
So kind of I guess at the time.
Like for that, for thebeginning, I decided to kind of
stay in my lane.
(34:32):
It's like this is the one thingthat I'm going to be known for.
I'm the person who knows howmedia agencies operate and I'm
always going to bring that andI'm just going to try and not
get sucked into.
Oh my God, everyone else knowsso much more about search than I
do.
I'm picking up and I think theword yet can be useful, very
useful.
I don't know that yet.
Ayesha Murray (34:53):
I don't understand how it works yet, and
it's again a matter of time andbelief and that yet has come to
come to a sense of confidencethat you will get there, yeah,
and it's fine to take the timeat your own pace or whatever.
The again scenario is yeah.
Claire Carroll (35:14):
Yeah, and I can remember a specific incident,
incident about maybe three yearsin or so, sorry, just a
situation where my boss who waswonderful and fabulous, also
knew to the company and said andI said, oh, I don't understand
this, can you explain it to me?
And I was mind blown thatsomeone so senior and with all
(35:35):
the experience not that shedidn't know it, but that she was
so unapologetically andnormally saying, oh, I don't
know this, can you teach it tome?
So the person did teach it toher and then she knew it for the
next time.
And that is so inspiring to seesomeone so humble just learning
the thing that they didn't knowand modeling to a whole team.
She had quite a big team, Ithink 50 people that when you
(35:58):
don't know something, just sayit, learn it, move on to the
next thing, and I don't evenrealize in the moment, but with
sometimes we can feel a need tomaybe hide our gaps or the
things that we don't know,rather than focus on the things
that we do know and pull in ourresources.
Pull in other people, ask Google, ask, chat, chat, upt another
(36:19):
human what it is or collaboratewith someone you know, and often
people are very flattered whenwe ask them about their
expertise and their knowledge orfor help, you know often do
want to help.
Ayesha Murray (36:31):
Yeah, and it gives that two way value,
doesn't it?
It gives back that value ofconnection yeah, it's genuine
connection when you're askingfor help or giving someone help.
Yeah, it sort of breaks downsome of those walls, I think,
and allows people to be morevulnerable and therefore more,
hopefully, more honest and opento connections.
Claire Carroll (36:48):
Yeah, yeah.
So the yeah, the shards arewhat?
Comparing to other people.
The thing is there's alwayssomeone looking at you and
thinking, wow, they're amazing,I wish I could do what they do.
Yeah, it seems to have such adiverse business and you know
they've got a great work likebalance, and they really seem to
be passionate about whatthey're doing.
And for someone like you knowyou're you're doing it in the
public eye.
You know there's thisvulnerability there.
(37:10):
So for me, I think it wasthinking through the worst case
scenario If this businessdoesn't work, what then?
Yeah, and part of me was like,well, those naysayers who are
thinking, who does she think sheis setting it up and who knows
who they are they're presumablyimagine imaginary people in my
head as like, okay, well, I'mgoing to craft a three sentence
(37:31):
narrative to say I tried it.
You know I didn't really.
You know I actually didn't likeit.
I thought that I'd love it, butthis is the bit that I didn't
like.
So now I'm doing this and Ilove this because of X1, is it
and move the conversation on.
You know, just create a storythat's short, generic, honest.
I move on.
Nobody's thinking about melonger than three seconds.
(37:52):
Everyone think it's themselves.
Ayesha Murray (37:55):
What are we?
We're all the fish and shipsterminology that today's
newspapers tomorrow, tomorrow'sfish and ships wrapper, wrapper,
and that's what we are, aren'twe, you know?
We think that we're sort offocused on one else's tension.
We're not really.
We just need to, as you say,stay in our lane, explore, be
curious, stay true to our values, do what's right for us at this
(38:16):
moment in time and our families, et cetera, and then, just if
it doesn't work out, we'll needto change them.
Claire Carroll (38:22):
Yeah.
Ayesha Murray (38:23):
Go with the flow a bit more.
Claire Carroll (38:24):
I suppose within a few seconds when I feel, as
you talk down, I hear my wordsback at me, feel I'm
contradicting myself a littlebit.
So I'm talking about staying inyour lane and I'm talking about
portfolio careers.
So for me, the staying in mylane grid was when I moved to
something new and I was like theexpertise and the knowledge and
the skills that I'm bringing tothis, that's the best that I'm
(38:45):
staying in and I'm not going toget sucked into thinking I need
to be like everyone else here.
And then when I decided tochange, I was like okay, it was
back to the more fundamentalthings around what motivates me,
what gets me out of bed in themorning, the values that I want,
how do I want to live my life,and a big thing for me post
COVID, like a lot of people, wascutting the aid on the commute
because I'd no time for interest, hobbies, kids and that bit of
(39:11):
autonomy.
Working in a big corporate isgetting so big, so big.
You know you don't have theopportunity to do things your
way as much.
So there are times, I think,when I think, when the
self-doubt or the comparing toothers creeps in, like you know,
hunker down and reallyunderstand your own strengths
and skills and why you're doingit for you.
(39:32):
You know your values aredifferent to other people, so it
doesn't matter what otherpeople are, often because
they've got different values.
Beauty of the human race allthe diversity and variety that
we have.
Ayesha Murray (39:45):
Thank you so much , claire.
How can people get hold of youso if they're a mid-career
professional?
I know this conversation hasresonated, which I'm sure we'll
do.
Where's the best place to findyou?
Claire Carroll (39:55):
Yeah, sure, I have a website.
It's claercarroll-coachingcom.
I'm also on LinkedIn.
It's claercarroll.
I think I'm connected to you onLinkedIn so people can find
your page.
Ayesha Murray (40:06):
And I'll put all your details in the notes as
well, anyway, so people can findyou.
Claire Carroll (40:09):
Brilliant, thanks so much so yeah, so I do,
you know, an initial chance tofigure out what the challenge or
decision or situation is aheadof you and then, if we feel
chemistry is good and I feelthat I can help you, we can
crack on to figuring out thedetails.
Ayesha Murray (40:24):
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
And then tons in thisconversation.
For those people who are atthat stage, I'm sure of thinking
where they, where their careers, might take them.
So thank you so much forsharing your insights and your
time today.
Claire Carroll (40:34):
I'm excited.
It was a real pleasure.
The time flew, I did.
Thank you, claire, take care.
Ayesha Murray (40:39):
To work with me.
Find out more at ishamariecom,connect with me on LinkedIn or
check out my free resources andquizzes at ishamariecom.
Welcome to the Parent Equation podcast with me,
aisha Murray.
This podcast series is full ofinspiring stories from working
parents who are passionate aboutdesigning a life that works for
them and their families Workingparents like you who want a
purposeful, rewarding careeralongside a balanced family life
.
So today on the Parent Equationpodcast, I'm joined by Claire
(00:28):
Carroll.
Claire is an executive andcareer coach helping mid-career
professionals, and we're goingto talk today about portfolio
careers.
So welcome, claire.
Thanks, aisha, great to be here.
Claire Carroll (00:38):
Delighted to chat to you today.
Ayesha Murray (00:39):
It's great to have you and this new season of
portfolio careers and, obviously, hearing your views on that
from your perspective, becauseyou, I believe, have a kind of
psychology background.
That's right.
Yeah, so we'll come at it as adifferent angle, potentially.
And when I've been thinkingabout this portfolio career
journey, I suppose that many ofus go on or want to go on.
It seems to me there's the kindof the why period is why I
(01:00):
actually want this for myself,the motivations behind it.
Then the what is what am Iactually going to do as a
portfolio career?
What are the options availableto me?
And then the how, which isputting it into practice and
creating an action plan aroundthat.
So I think, given yourbackground and we've talked
before about values, obviously,people's motivations and
behaviors, et cetera howimportant, well, they are
(01:20):
important.
How important do you thinkvalues are in this portfolio
career journey?
Claire Carroll (01:26):
I would say critical and I'd say the driving
force behind why people decideto make big changes to their
careers and have a portfoliocareer.
So perhaps you should take astep back and define what values
are.
So, how I see values are theirfundamental beliefs and
principles that help us guidethe choices that we make, things
(01:49):
that we think, things that wedo, things that we believe, and
they're pretty deeply heldconvictions that we have.
They are generally very stablethroughout life, although they
do fluctuate, and I like tothink about as dialing up in
priority and dialing downdepending on what life stage
that we're at and what kind ofresponsibilities are things that
(02:09):
are happening in our life.
So, essentially, values reflectwhat are important to us and,
to this point, when people arelooking at something as
fundamental as what we're doingfor work because we spend the
majority of our waking hours inwork often and, if we're working
(02:31):
with other people, more hourswith them than we do with our
loved ones sometimes and socertainly being as fulfilled and
satisfied in work as possiblecan have a huge halo effect on
the other areas of our life andthings are going well in work,
we feel good in other areas ofour life and we're not so good.
They can reflect back and weall know people coming home to
(02:53):
the household, be they flatmates, partners, siblings, parents
can be tough when someone hashad a tough day at work or
ongoing tough day.
So some people decide they wantto make a fundamental shift in
career and these days I guesswe're living longer and we are
having longer careers andthankfully society's attitudes
(03:16):
towards older folks has becomemore positive here in the in the
West and there's always beenrespect, I feel, for older folks
and wisdom, experience, thecontributions that older folks
make to society, which I loveand I'm really glad to see that
kind of increasing here in theWest in general.
(03:36):
And it's not surprising to seepeople in their 60s and their
70s and even in their 80s whohave a wealth of experience and
wisdom and knowledge to shareand still working in some
capacity, perhaps in a differentway, perhaps more in a
lecturing or mentoring or, youknow, speaking way, but also
(03:56):
leading companies or signing uptheir own thing, and so I feel
what's behind this arefundamental values.
So someone, for example, hasbeen working in a corporate
environment for 10, 15, 20 years.
They might have had a lot ofstimulation, a lot of challenge
(04:17):
a lot of change, feel that theyhave learned a lot, but they
might come to a point wherethey're like Do you know what
this?
I've kind of reached my levelnow and I could stay here and do
this for another 20 years, butactually there's a niggle of
dissatisfaction or a huge urgeto change and I'm feeling that I
(04:39):
can't possibly show up onlineor in the office on Monday
morning to do this again.
I will scream, and that's whenI find people can start
listening or start tuning intowhat's what's not happening in
my work life, that I need to behappening and often, as you will
know, as a coach, I said if wedo a values exercise with
(05:01):
someone like us, we realize thata value of theirs is not being
expressed or it's beenrestricted in some way, or they
just don't have the ability totap into a value of theirs.
That's important.
Ayesha Murray (05:15):
And that value.
Actually, I think an example Ihad the other day with a client
was family obviously really highon the list of values.
Actually, I think, when hetalked about transitions, that
transition to being a new parentchanges those values.
Or, as you say, maybe thedialing up or dialing down
changes because we havedifferent priorities, different
perspective on life and then ourvalues are therefore different.
I know I had that, incredibly,my kids were born.
(05:38):
So if you're, if you suddenlyhave a new value of real family
and connection with family andchildren and etc.
And you're working a 70 hourweek, then you've automatically
you automatically drivingagainst that core value of yours
and you're going to feel so,you're going to feel that
anxiety and you're going tobring anxiety home with you and
(05:58):
then it's going to spill outinto more areas of your life
than you want and it's notcontained anymore within that
work bubble.
It starts to spill intodifferent areas and I think
that's I say when it becomesthat niggler.
This has satisfaction is howquickly should one act on that
niggle, yeah, as opposed towaiting for that point where I
think I've now, I've had it upto here and I need to do
(06:19):
something drastic.
Claire Carroll (06:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah .
And so I I would say, alwayslisten to the niggles and try to
voice them, be they niggles inyour knee or your hip or your
elbow, or niggles in your mindabout what's happening for you
in work, talking to someoneabout it, perhaps finding
(06:43):
someone who's in a similarsituation to use similar stage
or someone who's further downthe track than you are, and
regardless of age, I think it'smore about you know stage, work
stage or family stage.
In that instance and certainlyI have found which has
encouraged me as well A lot ofthe male clients that I have who
have become parents are alsotalking about work life balance
(07:04):
and also trying to figure outhow can they be there to support
their kids and to have a moreequal workload in the household.
And they, particularly the oneswho are in their thirties,
really seem some of them reallyseem to have quite a strong
sense of responsibility andunderstanding that they are a
parent as much as the mother is,and that does really encourage
(07:26):
me and that is a big shift and abig change.
And they are trying to figureout how can they get more
non-work hours back in theirlife in order to do the things
that they want to do and also,which I like as well, and I feel
women can learn from men inthis regard, is that they want
to find time for their interestsand their passions.
(07:46):
So maybe they like swimming,maybe they like running, maybe
they're interested in art.
How can they carve out theprecious one or two hours of
adult me time in a week to dothe thing for them?
And certainly when I'm talkingto female clients who talk a lot
about work life balance andfamily responsibilities, trying
to carve out those couple ofhours for yourself and your own
(08:07):
interests.
And again coming back to valuesthat can allow a value of
creativity to be exist or avalue of learning, of self
development, of independence andautonomy, because it's
important to feel like an adultwoman or an adult man, not just
a mum and a housekeeper and anemployee or employer.
Ayesha Murray (08:31):
Yeah, I think that's where the portfolio
career opportunities come in.
I guess is that, again, itdoesn't have to be a drastic,
not a change of career, becauseportfolio implies there are
multiple things happening.
So we're not talking about acareer change per se, but about
bringing other things in tocomplement, I guess, what you
are.
You still have what you've donefor 20 years or whatever it is.
(08:51):
And to your point about a valueof creativity or value of
independence, I suppose thenwould you agree that, if you
have, you could potentiallyreduce hours in your normal job,
let's say, and introducesomething else into your week
that then taps into that valuethat you desire, even if perhaps
your main role or career isn'tquite sick in those boxes.
Claire Carroll (09:14):
Yeah, exactly so .
Portfolio career to me generallyimplies a mix and a blend of
employed roles so thetraditional, normal nine to five
or whatever the hours are andsomething freelance and or kind
of a side protector, side hustle, as Americans like to describe
it.
And so generally people arereducing hours in the employed
(09:38):
part to enable them to dosomething more freelance, and
often the first place thatpeople start is teaching
something or mentoring orgetting involved in conveying
the information and experiencethat they built up to others.
So it could be your hobby, yoursailing or football or art or
(09:59):
music and you start maybe withina local club with coaching or
doing private lessons, or we'redoing something online or
getting involved in a schoolsort of local educational
institution, and it can be anice first step and a nice
transition because you'realready working on an area
(10:21):
that's a passion for you andthat you've got deep and
extensive knowledge, so you feelquite competent in that area
and it's a nice easy step out.
Some people can, as you say,make big changes, and I think
there are two things that havekind of enabled this.
(10:41):
One is technologicaladvancements, so that idea of
being a digital nomad where, ifyou have no caring
responsibilities at home.
You can up and leave and moveto Indonesia or Australia or.
Ayesha Murray (10:56):
That sounds marvellous, never mind about the
kids.
Claire Carroll (11:00):
With your laptop and do the thing that you love
online.
Some people might do graphicdesign or might do digital
marketing or communications andcontinue the work that they have
based at home, but just in adifferent location.
I think the other piece thathas underpinned it are societal
expectations or beliefs aroundwhat's kind of good or correct
(11:25):
or acceptable.
Terrible when we are subject toother people's opinions, but it
is a real force that can impacthow people make their decisions
, and the idea of a stable nineto five job that you stay in for
50 years is no longer the onlypath that you can take in your
career, and there's a much more.
We can see more examples aroundus of acquaintances, friends
(11:47):
and family or former colleagueswho have either changed location
or stayed, but stepped out of aregular nine to five type role
and stepped into somethingthat's more fluid.
Ayesha Murray (12:00):
Yeah, and I think it's finding the catalyst,
isn't it?
So if you are, if you're feelingconfident and grounded in your
values and confident in thedecisions that you make, which
not all of us are it's a hardplace to get to sometimes then
maybe we can say I want to trythis, I'm going to confidently
try this, I'm going to workalongside this and things sort
(12:20):
of work out for you, but forothers my guest in this season,
lee, who is a portfolio careerparent, if you like redundancy
is one of the first things quitea while ago now that spurred
him into action to think aboutokay, I need to future-proof my
career because redundanciesmight happen again in the future
.
What does that mean for mycareer?
So he took that catalyst towork out what he could do
(12:44):
alongside his normal career role, if you like, and ended up
being personal trainer and doingall those things.
So I suppose the catalyst tothat career not diversion, what
you call it, but things changingif you haven't got that
catalyst like redundancy, howcan you start to think about
what might work for you?
Claire Carroll (13:05):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I guess it's back to levels offulfilment and satisfaction and
what you're currently doing inyour role.
And I often find when I bringthe perspective to folks and I
ask them, how long more will yoube working, and they kind of go
wow, I've been working for 15years and I'm going to be
working for another 25 or 30.
Suddenly, that extent of timerolling out in front of them
(13:30):
either inspires them and go God,this is really exciting.
I can try something and maybe Ineed to take a dip in income, I
need to figure out thatfinancial piece, but I'm excited
about trying to build andfeeling that I regret more the
things that I don't do ratherthan things that I do do.
Or people get a shock and afright and go oh my God, I've a
(13:54):
whole 30 years, 35 years out ofme.
I can't possibly stay in thething that I'm in now and do
that for longer than I'vealready been doing it.
So there can be a kind of apositive feeling that can spur
you into action and at leastplanning or imagining what you
could do differently, or anegative feeling.
Ideally we don't want to dwellin too much right, because
(14:14):
negative feelings motivating usto do stuff tend to impact our
decision making in a not sogreat way.
But to think, ok, turn that, 30years still to go into a right.
This is an opportunity, not ascary thing.
And I often ask people as wellhow many hours do you spend in
(14:34):
work and how many hours leftover do you have?
And when they really realizewe're spending the majority of
our waking hours in work, that'swhen they think, yeah, I
deserve it.
I owe it to myself to try tobring in the things that I am
more interested by or thatfulfilled me more in work to it,
and not to say that work needsto be your lifestyle.
It's perfectly acceptable to doa job that keeps you moderately
(14:59):
happy or satisfied and spendmore of the time in the things
that you love outside of work,but upping the moments where you
feel excuse me energized andthat you're making a positive
contribution and that you'releading towards some sort of
greater goal or greatercontribution to society or thing
(15:20):
generally means that we arehappier.
Yeah, I mean, there's a knife.
Ayesha Murray (15:25):
Overall, yeah, and I think there's this not a
sticker, necessarily, but a viewthat if you decide to have a
portfolio career and again, Isuppose a portfolio career
aren't words that we wouldnormally use outside of the
coaching environment, but ofadding something new, varied, et
cetera then are we saying thenyou want to.
(15:45):
You're not as ambitious, forexample, or you want to reduce
your working hours in yourcareer because you're not as
ambitious and you might want todo something a bit quiet on the
side.
So does it feel like you canstill be ambitious, you can
still want to drive your careerforward with a portfolio career
option?
Claire Carroll (16:03):
Yeah, I absolutely believe that.
I absolutely believe thatbecause I think it's a really
brave thing to do.
It's really brave to leave astable work environment where
you've built up the wealth ofexperience and knowledge and
contacts and to go out and dosomething very different, or
even to reduce down your timeand that and go out and try
(16:24):
something different.
And I think the majority ofpeople actually look at other
folks and think, wow, that'sbrave Perhaps a change of envy
or jealousy, but I really thinkit's so brave and I think it's
people plowing their own furrow.
I would say over here, you knowmaking your own path in life
and being very confident inwhat's good for you, those
(16:46):
around you.
You know to go ahead and do it.
And funny, you mentioned aboutyour guest who was spurred on by
redundancy situation.
So in my own case, I set up mycoaching practice following a
redundancy from a tech companythat I chose.
I took some time off and Iremember talking to friends then
(17:06):
saying, oh, I think you know,rather than leaning in like
Cheryl Sandberg says, I think Iwant to lean out.
I'm just going to set up my ownthing.
And remember them looking at mesetting up your own business.
You're labelling that asleaning out, Like, are you nuts?
I was like, yeah, that's true,that is being brave and taking a
punt on myself and saying,right, I'm going to set goals
(17:27):
and in three months I want thisto happen, in six months I want
this to happen.
This is the hard line, you knoweither these things are
happening or it's not workingout.
So I change and I think ofsomething different, and for me
personally, stability andsecurity are massive values of
mine.
Yet I was stepping out of a verywell paid, high flying tech
role and not looking for anotherone, but going and doing my own
(17:49):
thing.
I'm not in a financialsituation, but it allowed my
values of autonomy, a workbalance and that entrepreneurial
spirit that I always wondered.
Would I ever be able to setfree a little bit?
And you know kind of, I guess,a challenge.
I do like a good levelchallenge and intellectual
stimulation.
So there were a whole set ofskills and things that I needed
(18:11):
to learn in setting these up andI found that those really,
really energized me.
It was great and I'd always I'dalways love coaching, mentoring
, managing people.
That was the thing that reallyenergized me at the end of the
day and I've had literallyhundreds of career conversations
with folks and teams that I'vemanaged over the years and I
always ask them when you shutdown your laptop at the end of
(18:34):
the day and it's been a good dayand you think to yourself I've
killed it and what's the thingthat's happened, and I finally
took my own advice and said tohim for myself I was like
helping other people figure outtheir career paths, that's what
I love.
I don't know if it sounds likethe most exciting thing, but it
is really what I love.
So I said I'd go for it and tryit and thankfully it's working
(18:54):
out so far.
So but that's I mean I waslucky in that I had people
around me, friends and family,who were supportive.
And, on a pragmatic front,there's a strong kind of local
office, local enterprise officenetwork here in Ireland where
you can go to get businessadvice, you know, to figure out
what grants are available, tounderstand how to run a business
(19:17):
.
Because I would say, for folksconsidering your portfolio
career, if you want to go outand set up as a civil trader or
as a company on your own, youmight have a lot of skills and
experience in the thing itself,be that art, music, business,
mentoring, whatever it is.
But running a business is avery different set of skills and
(19:38):
it does take quite a bit oftime and, at the end of the day,
we need to earn money to payour bills, which are ever
increasing due to the crisis,because of living crisis.
So that's an important thing tothink about.
So I think when, if someone isreviewing their values and
thinking, if I'm going to have aportfolio career, what values
(20:00):
will my portfolio career allowme to express or fulfill that
aren't being fulfilled right now, I think it's sensible to check
those values that maybe willnot be fulfilled or maybe will
be contradicting.
For example in Mike's or otherfolks case, that I know the
security and stability.
Like, how am I plugging back up?
I love teamwork, I lovecollaborating, it's really best.
(20:24):
But as a solo business owner,how do I, you know, bring in
acquaintances, colleagues, youknow I have a supervisor and so
on, but how do I build some sortof team around me or networks
of people to tap into so that Idon't feel I'm sitting alone in
my bedroom?
It's very bedroom gone crazy.
Ayesha Murray (20:45):
Yeah, interestingly that's funny
because you mentioned that andI've never thought about it till
just now Is that my career iscurrently I suppose you could
say, portfolio, because coach byday, podcast host by night, for
example, are two differentstrings on the same kind of bow
but different, you know,different parts I'm taking with
the most.
But actually to your pointabout the values I'm meeting
(21:08):
through that and I'm hugely.
My connection is a huge valuefor me.
I love being with people.
I hate being on my own.
I can't bear it.
Board my own company in aboutthree minutes.
So actually I was suffering, asyou have just said, from being a
solo business owner in thespare room.
Yes, connection throughcoaching clients, all through,
(21:28):
you know, through screens, butactually the podcast then has
given me a real sense ofconnection with people and a
real way to expand my networkand talk to people on a very
different level.
So that's then ticking thatvalue box of connection which I
used to have when I was in abusy office, busy, busy office.
So it's interesting I don'tthink I'd actually thought about
it that way that evensubconsciously I was taking
(21:50):
myself down a path to find thatvalue or to have that value,
have that value met somehow.
Claire Carroll (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah , interesting yeah.
Ayesha Murray (22:01):
Just think about what you said about taking a
punt on yourself.
Yeah, I think that's such avaluable statement, especially
given we come to working parentsand often working moms that we
talk to quite a lot where yourconfidence can take quite a hit
or quite a knock from a careerpoint of view when you get back
to work on having kids, andthere's a lot of people saying,
(22:21):
you know, am I still valuable atwork?
I haven't got anything to offer.
All these kind of self doubtcan creep in quite easily in
those first stages, certainly,of motherhood and parenthood.
So, actually just having theconfidence to take to actually
back yourself for once, to putyourself first which often we
don't do and say, actually thisis what I want and I believe I
(22:41):
can do it.
So I think even value decide isjust having that strength of
character.
Yeah, to say that you're as youdid, put yourself first and
back yourself.
Claire Carroll (22:52):
Yeah, and I think think about your, your why
, why are you doing it?
You know, and in those momentswhere it's tough, step back and
think, okay, what's the biggerpicture?
What's the 5000 meter view?
Am I doing what I'm doing?
And for me it was genuinelyabout helping people.
I often hesitate to say that Ilied because it sounds twee or
unoriginal, but it is.
(23:14):
It's the thing that's always.
You know, that's always kind ofenergised me or made me feel
fulfilled and work.
But I can think of other people,like two women in particular.
I'm thinking you just reallywanted to change the world.
And one is someone that I wentto school with, had worked in
(23:35):
office as an office manager,went back retrained in finance,
got into stockbroking and wealthmanagement to senior leadership
level, then left, took sometime out and founded a company,
got into MedTech.
She's EO and it's a.
It's in the medical devicebracket.
(23:57):
So it's a shield that measuresbreastfeeding, the volume of
breast milk that comes,particularly for premature or
sick babies, because breast milk, you know, the most nutritious
and healthy substance that anewborn can have.
But measuring the quantity forsick babies is is super
important.
So it's painted, it's goingthrough clinical trials, it is a
(24:20):
truly global effort.
It's an amazing company.
It's gone through really greatfundraising rounds and is set to
go to market soon.
It's been a six year journeymaybe.
So huge amount of bravery, ofsacrifice, of skill learning, of
connecting, of flying aroundthe world, you know, getting
(24:41):
involved in clinical trials withher two business partners and
it's it's so admirable and it'sso admirable to see, you know,
someone making a huge leap fromsomething wealth management,
wealth creation through tosomething that is health and for
small children and for, youknow, helping families in a very
vulnerable and scary situation.
(25:04):
I can think of someone else whowas kind of in sustainability in
a campaign director role, thenwent back and did a full time
master's, actually in LSE andLondon School of Economics and
then did a centre at the UNdoing peace building fascinating
.
Dabbled in journalism.
Then lived in the States for awhile and got into retail, in
(25:27):
sales, you know, in an apparelcompany, and now has founded her
own company which is a techplatform connecting parents with
childcare options, be theynannies, au pairs, crashes,
whatever in a local area, butbased on values.
So often we choose ourchildminders based on
(25:48):
availability and cost and wekind of forget about our really
important these thinking throughwhat our parenting philosophy,
how do we want to raise our kids?
You know what kind of style arewe using?
So she matches minders based onsimilar philosophies and
similar values, which I think isamazing.
And also companies can kind ofonboard in this platform so that
(26:08):
they are subsidising or fullyfunding the cost of childcare
for parents.
It's in a bid to a tackle thegender pay gap because, you know
, more women are dropping out oftheir work due to caring
responsibilities for familiesand be like.
I love how Kate articulates it.
Here in Ireland the governmentfund has a bike, bike to work
(26:30):
scheme so you can buy a bike taxfree.
So it's 50% off, essentially toget yourself to work on a
bicycle.
It's environmentally friendly,it's good for health, that's
good for the nation, it cutsdown on traffic jams and so on
and so forth.
The next big barrier to peoplegetting to work in a healthy,
sustainable and more stress freeway is childcare that's
(26:50):
available and you've got abackup plan and even a backup
plan to the backup plan.
So that's the philosophy she'scoming up with with the platform
.
So I love in those two examplesof happen to be women who have
been working in very differentareas and then just decided to
know what I'm going to try andchange the world Like.
Literally try and change theworld in an international sense
with a product or a platformthat's going to really make a
(27:13):
difference.
That's, I think, very genuineexamples of very big extreme
examples of portfolio careers.
Ayesha Murray (27:20):
Yeah, and both those examples that experimented
, haven't they what you'resaying?
They've tried various differentthings.
It's not just sort of makingone decision and then saying
this is it, now I've got afollow, this path, add in for an
item.
It's actually just being opento exploring possibilities and
changing your mind.
I'm saying, do you know what?
This one's not quite workingfor me, or it's not quite
aligned to my values or myincome needs or my flexibility
(27:43):
is whatever it might be, so I'mgoing to try something else.
The second example you gavesounds like she's tried multiple
things before then findingherself on this current path.
Claire Carroll (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah.
No, it can be very inspiring tohear about these stories and I
think as well, something thatcan hold us back in many areas
is that fear of failure or thatfear of what might others think.
The fear of failure is a realunpowerful force and we can
think through all the reasonsthat it might not work out or
(28:13):
won't work out and what mightpeople think.
They might laugh or might thinkI'm silly, or might think who
does she think she is?
Of course that wasn't going towork and it does take bravery
and pragmatic things likeplanning and assessing and
creating the narrative foryourself and for other people to
maybe keep them at bay.
You know, keep the naysayers atarm's length and say you know,
(28:37):
I'm trying this, things aregoing really well.
You don't need to get into thedetails.
You know, not everyone isprivileged to have access to the
information that you have.
You know, keep it to thesmaller circle so that you're
not allowing the cynics in andto see negatively.
And I think it is sensible to bestepping out of a paid employee
(29:00):
position into something you'restarting up yourself, or if it's
reducing errors and taking onsomething freelance or some sort
of side project.
It is sensible to have goalsand to think about.
You know how am I going toassess whether I'm doing well
and keeping the goals achievablewith a little bit of stretch?
Because confidence comes fromexperience and from doing, and
(29:21):
when you're doing and youachieve what you set out to do,
you get that kick of dopamine,that kick of serotonin.
You know that pride and thathappiness and that boost of
confidence thinking oh, I can dothis, this is going okay.
And now if you're four goalsthat you write down to maybe you
hit and to you don't, butyou're halfway there, that's
also positive.
Nobody gets 100% the first time, I know you're sending yourself
(29:48):
a profile.
So I think, keeping itrealistic, and I think also as
life unfolds, we realize nowoften 80% is good enough.
Yeah, yeah, it's better thanperfect.
As a mantra that Facebook nowmet, I have around the place and
I love it done is better thanperfect, and I think,
particularly for anyonelistening or anyone who's a
parent, we can certainly relateto that.
(30:11):
You know it doesn't matter ifthe house is a bit messy.
I know it feels like it matters.
Maybe we like that sense ofcontrol.
It wasn't actually matter, youknow.
Ayesha Murray (30:20):
And what about when you put alongside that so
that's your own, in your owncontrol, if you like is your
goals.
You're trying to not to be aperfectionist, all of kind of
things, but I found the biggeststruggle for me and still is
four years into having thisbusiness is comparing myself to
others, so trying something new.
You've got the naysayers,obviously, which you can, as you
(30:41):
say, try and keep it bay.
Yeah, then you've also got yourown tendency, especially in
this social media, instagramworld we live in, to compare
yourself against someone elsewho's doing something similar.
So as soon as you mentionedthose two examples of these
women changing the world, myinitial reaction was oh my gosh,
I'm not changing the world so,straight away.
There's a feeling of you know,why are I doing as well as they
(31:03):
are?
Why am I achieving more thanthey are?
Why am I changing things morefundamentally for this world we
live in than just my little bit?
And that's, I think, justnatural human nature to do that.
But how do we manage that?
So it doesn't get in our way.
Claire Carroll (31:21):
Yeah, it's a difficult one and I don't think
there is a magic solution thatcan work overnight.
I think it's probably a moremidterm thing for us to work on
our thoughts and our beliefs.
What's the phrase?
Comparison is the thief of joy,Is that correct?
Yeah, social media is the worstthing and the best thing in the
(31:42):
world.
I know that I can certainly getin a trap of doom scrolling.
I think it's called and I can'tstop.
And I know it's a neurological,physiological thing, whatever
the neurotransmitters floatingaround my body are getting left
open for me and it's terribleand I need to leave my phone
outside of my bedroom or knockit on at all and delete the apps
(32:04):
even for a week, because it isthat comparison.
So what I do know, and what Icoach and what I try to take my
own advice on, is we are alwayscomparing our behind scenes
reels every thought, every doubt, every possibility, every
imagined future that we'vethought through, everything that
(32:25):
we could or should do.
We're comparing all of that toa sizzle reel of someone else,
the highlights and the verynicely edited social media
highlights, and you just don'thave access to the doubts and
the mistakes and the failures,although these days there
certainly is more of a tendencyfor people to admit mistakes and
(32:45):
failures than to kind of go,hey, it's okay, this is how I
learned, but there's stillglossy and nicely presented and
nicely edited and, yes,everything worked out amazing in
the end, like things don'talways work out after mistakes
or failures, but we don't hearit.
So we start to think that theonly outcomes are positive for
(33:07):
other people.
So why is that happening to me?
I think we need to bear in mindwe don't have a full data set.
We only have a part of thelight.
We're looking through a keyholeand only seeing a small part of
the picture, not the full thing.
So I think that's first andalso so when I used to work in
Google, I did for 10 years acompany full of very bright
(33:28):
people, a lot of side projectsand things, olympic medals here
and businesses there andwhatever like crazy amounts of
overachievement and I suffered alot from imposter syndrome when
I joined and, gosh, what do Ihave to offer?
But I was like, no, I was hired.
I was hired for a reason.
The reason was I was ex-adagency.
(33:50):
I was in the Google ads part.
We were trying to encourageclients to invest more of their
digital marketing budget intoGoogle search and YouTube, and I
had planned and bought TV spaceand radio space and press space
for years.
So I had access to who wasmaking the decision, how are
decisions actually made and when.
So that was the reason I washired.
(34:11):
Not because I knew a lot aboutsearch market and search
advertising I didn't.
Or YouTube advertising becauseI didn't.
So I just kept pulling my mindback to there is a reason and
there you know, you knowsomething that others don't.
So kind of I guess at the time.
Like for that, for thebeginning, I decided to kind of
stay in my lane.
(34:32):
It's like this is the one thingthat I'm going to be known for.
I'm the person who knows howmedia agencies operate and I'm
always going to bring that andI'm just going to try and not
get sucked into.
Oh my God, everyone else knowsso much more about search than I
do.
I'm picking up and I think theword yet can be useful, very
useful.
I don't know that yet.
Ayesha Murray (34:53):
I don't understand how it works yet, and
it's again a matter of time andbelief and that yet has come to
come to a sense of confidencethat you will get there, yeah,
and it's fine to take the timeat your own pace or whatever.
The again scenario is yeah.
Claire Carroll (35:14):
Yeah, and I can remember a specific incident,
incident about maybe three yearsin or so, sorry, just a
situation where my boss who waswonderful and fabulous, also
knew to the company and said andI said, oh, I don't understand
this, can you explain it to me?
And I was mind blown thatsomeone so senior and with all
(35:35):
the experience not that shedidn't know it, but that she was
so unapologetically andnormally saying, oh, I don't
know this, can you teach it tome?
So the person did teach it toher and then she knew it for the
next time.
And that is so inspiring to seesomeone so humble just learning
the thing that they didn't knowand modeling to a whole team.
She had quite a big team, Ithink 50 people that when you
(35:58):
don't know something, just sayit, learn it, move on to the
next thing, and I don't evenrealize in the moment, but with
sometimes we can feel a need tomaybe hide our gaps or the
things that we don't know,rather than focus on the things
that we do know and pull in ourresources.
Pull in other people, ask Google, ask, chat, chat, upt another
(36:19):
human what it is or collaboratewith someone you know, and often
people are very flattered whenwe ask them about their
expertise and their knowledge orfor help, you know often do
want to help.
Ayesha Murray (36:31):
Yeah, and it gives that two way value,
doesn't it?
It gives back that value ofconnection yeah, it's genuine
connection when you're askingfor help or giving someone help.
Yeah, it sort of breaks downsome of those walls, I think,
and allows people to be morevulnerable and therefore more,
hopefully, more honest and opento connections.
Claire Carroll (36:48):
Yeah, yeah.
So the yeah, the shards arewhat?
Comparing to other people.
The thing is there's alwayssomeone looking at you and
thinking, wow, they're amazing,I wish I could do what they do.
Yeah, it seems to have such adiverse business and you know
they've got a great work likebalance, and they really seem to
be passionate about whatthey're doing.
And for someone like you knowyou're you're doing it in the
public eye.
You know there's thisvulnerability there.
(37:10):
So for me, I think it wasthinking through the worst case
scenario If this businessdoesn't work, what then?
Yeah, and part of me was like,well, those naysayers who are
thinking, who does she think sheis setting it up and who knows
who they are they're presumablyimagine imaginary people in my
head as like, okay, well, I'mgoing to craft a three sentence
(37:31):
narrative to say I tried it.
You know I didn't really.
You know I actually didn't likeit.
I thought that I'd love it, butthis is the bit that I didn't
like.
So now I'm doing this and Ilove this because of X1, is it
and move the conversation on.
You know, just create a storythat's short, generic, honest.
I move on.
Nobody's thinking about melonger than three seconds.
(37:52):
Everyone think it's themselves.
Ayesha Murray (37:55):
What are we?
We're all the fish and shipsterminology that today's
newspapers tomorrow, tomorrow'sfish and ships wrapper, wrapper,
and that's what we are, aren'twe, you know?
We think that we're sort offocused on one else's tension.
We're not really.
We just need to, as you say,stay in our lane, explore, be
curious, stay true to our values, do what's right for us at this
(38:16):
moment in time and our families, et cetera, and then, just if
it doesn't work out, we'll needto change them.
Claire Carroll (38:22):
Yeah.
Ayesha Murray (38:23):
Go with the flow a bit more.
Claire Carroll (38:24):
I suppose within a few seconds when I feel, as
you talk down, I hear my wordsback at me, feel I'm
contradicting myself a littlebit.
So I'm talking about staying inyour lane and I'm talking about
portfolio careers.
So for me, the staying in mylane grid was when I moved to
something new and I was like theexpertise and the knowledge and
the skills that I'm bringing tothis, that's the best that I'm
(38:45):
staying in and I'm not going toget sucked into thinking I need
to be like everyone else here.
And then when I decided tochange, I was like okay, it was
back to the more fundamentalthings around what motivates me,
what gets me out of bed in themorning, the values that I want,
how do I want to live my life,and a big thing for me post
COVID, like a lot of people, wascutting the aid on the commute
because I'd no time for interest, hobbies, kids and that bit of
(39:11):
autonomy.
Working in a big corporate isgetting so big, so big.
You know you don't have theopportunity to do things your
way as much.
So there are times, I think,when I think, when the
self-doubt or the comparing toothers creeps in, like you know,
hunker down and reallyunderstand your own strengths
and skills and why you're doingit for you.
(39:32):
You know your values aredifferent to other people, so it
doesn't matter what otherpeople are, often because
they've got different values.
Beauty of the human race allthe diversity and variety that
we have.
Ayesha Murray (39:45):
Thank you so much , claire.
How can people get hold of youso if they're a mid-career
professional?
I know this conversation hasresonated, which I'm sure we'll
do.
Where's the best place to findyou?
Claire Carroll (39:55):
Yeah, sure, I have a website.
It's claercarroll-coachingcom.
I'm also on LinkedIn.
It's claercarroll.
I think I'm connected to you onLinkedIn so people can find
your page.
Ayesha Murray (40:06):
And I'll put all your details in the notes as
well, anyway, so people can findyou.
Claire Carroll (40:09):
Brilliant, thanks so much so yeah, so I do,
you know, an initial chance tofigure out what the challenge or
decision or situation is aheadof you and then, if we feel
chemistry is good and I feelthat I can help you, we can
crack on to figuring out thedetails.
Ayesha Murray (40:24):
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
And then tons in thisconversation.
For those people who are atthat stage, I'm sure of thinking
where they, where their careers, might take them.
So thank you so much forsharing your insights and your
time today.
Claire Carroll (40:34):
I'm excited.
It was a real pleasure.
The time flew, I did.
Thank you, claire, take care.
Ayesha Murray (40:39):
To work with me.
Find out more at ishamariecom,connect with me on LinkedIn or
check out my free resources andquizzes at ishamariecom.
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