John Goodwin - "Echoes of the Badge" (Episode 27)

John Goodwin, Retired NPS Ranger and author of "Echoes of the Badge" joins us to talk about his adventures as a park ranger. He also shares some tips for your park visit.

Episode Transcript

Speaker (00:03):
Let's learn about the courage, passion, and commitment
of our national Park Rangers.
And while we're at it, here'ssome insider tips for exploring
a park.
Join us as we chat with JohnGoodwin, a retired ranger and
author of Echoes of the Badge.
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks Podcast.

Missy (00:24):
in today's episode, we are so lucky to have John
Goodwin join us.
John is a retired National ParkService Ranger and the author
of Echoes of the Badge.
John, welcome to the Parkspodcast.

John (00:36):
Thanks, Missy.
Thanks for having me on today.

Missy (00:38):
John, we start episodes talking about stats, and so I
did a little research and havesome stats on you.
You were a park ranger for 27years, retiring in 2017.
You worked at five parks thatinclude Rocky Mountain National
Park, Mount Rainier NationalPark, Northern Cascades National

(00:59):
Park, Everglades National Park,and Golden Gate Recreation
Area.

John (01:04):
That's right.

Missy (01:04):
your roles included law enforcement, wildland and
structural firefighting, EMT,and search and rescue.
You had 20 hospital stays youfaced off against bears and
alligators.
You were struck by lightningtwice.
Then you became the mayor ofComa, California, where you live

(01:24):
and you are the author of abook called Echoes of the Badge.
What a life.

John (01:31):
It's been a good life.

Missy (01:32):
It has been a good life.
It has been a good life.
I wanna talk to people justquickly about how we met and
we'll go into a little bit moredetail in this.
But I got a note from a mutualfriend of ours saying.
You need to know John.
He's in the middle of taking anAmtrak across the country, and

(01:52):
he's going to do a protest atthe Lincoln Memorial in
Washington, DC and I live 90miles from Washington DC So I,
I'm there.
I am a hundred percent there.
And I met you at the foot ofthe Lincoln Memorial and we
protested together.

John (02:08):
Yes, we did.

Missy (02:09):
It was a very good time and it was very bonding.
I feel so connected to thepeople that we spent time with.

John (02:17):
Agreed.
Yeah.
I, same with me.
I know we're a small group, butI feel the same and all the
people that we interacted withon the way, coming up the steps.
It was a great time.

Missy (02:27):
And even your journey, you guys, you and your son Sean
mentioned several stories abouttalking to people on your
journey across the country.

John (02:35):
Yeah, we did.
Yeah.
That was a choice that I made,to take the train rather than
fly, not only to reconnect withthe country at ground level
rather than 30,000 feet, butalso to interact with people on
the train as it turned out onthe plane, on another train.
I took many forms oftransportation to get to DC but,
whenever I got somebody's ear,I would just talk to 'em about

(02:57):
public lands and the employeeswho work there.

Missy (03:01):
Yeah, and you let the rest of us travel with you
because you did a great jobposting to your socials, which
we'll certainly link to in ourepisode page so people can go
back and join it.
I mentioned you were an author.
Okay.
Your book is Echoes of theBadge, and I love this book.
I read it.
I heard about it after we metand then I read it while

(03:21):
perusing some parks recently.
So it was really fun to do itthat way.
But you share a glimpse insideyour life, but also the life of
Park Rangers.
And I am somewhat ashamed thatI didn't realize the scope of
work of our rangers.
And I just I don't even knowhow to summarize.
I think I, I see them at theentrance.

(03:43):
I see them helping me withtrails.
I see them leading tours.
And of course somebody has todo the search and rescue and
somebody has to deal with theproblems.
And, but never in my life did Irealize the scope of the work
that you do.

John (03:57):
No it's amazing, isn't it?
It's it's like a small city oreven a big city, right?
Where you've got the teacherswho are the interpretive
rangers, you've got lawenforcement, police officers are
the law enforcement rangers,who are also search and rescue
and firefighters.
You've got public works, whichare maintenance employees.
You have dispatch.
The only thing unique aboutthat is we all wear the same

(04:19):
uniform.
Most people are walking around,like people used to come up to
me and say, oh, since when didRangers carry guns?
And I'm like forever, I'm a lawenforcement.
Ranger and it's oh, that personover there, like leading the
tour, they don't have a gun.
And I'm like, that's becausethey're the teacher equivalents
of what we have in the park.
They're called interpretiverangers.
That leads to a lot ofconfusion, miss with so imagine

(04:42):
going to a city or town andeveryone's wearing the same
uniform.
It would be confusing, right?
Yeah.

Missy (04:48):
And yet you all do have a pretty broad base of knowledge
because I think I've asked allof you questions unbeknownst to
me now I have a greater respectand understanding of the city
structure.
The other thing I noticed isnot only through your book John,
but through just engagement ofwhat the Parks podcast is doing,
advocating for the parks rightnow and meeting different

(05:08):
rangers.
It is a true labor of love tobe a park ranger.
Why did you decide that youwanted to be a park ranger?

John (05:17):
The background right here, in my on my Zoom, it's Great
Sand Dunes National Park.
So that's where kind of my loveof the National Park started.
Before my dad got sick, he gota series of strokes when I was a
small kid.
But before that, we used topile into the camper van, dodge
camper van and just travelaround western national parks on
summer vacation and and greatsand dunes was the go-to every

(05:38):
summer.
Park and back then it was anational monument, same thing.
It's parks a little bit biggersometimes wider in scope, but
yeah it, that's probably where Igot just the love of it is,
going into, like you hadmentioned before the Rangers,
right?
You see the rangers at theentrance stations, the rangers
at the desk that you askquestions, the rangers that at

(05:58):
the campfire talks, the rangerspatrolling around the Rangers
doing the maintenance in thepark.
And for me, that was mysuperhero.
I was like, oh my gosh.
I looked up to those men andwomen so much and I wanted to be
a park ranger, when I was thatsmall.
And of course life gets in theway and, and and I didn't get
the opportunity until muchlater, in life.

(06:20):
But that was, it was a dream.
And it all started with greatsand dunes in the backdrop
there.

Missy (06:26):
And you can see you certainly others, you can see
how how it must have impactedyou as a kid by the way you
treat kids when they come up toyou.
Because even at this protest,when a child would come up, you
were down on your knees at theirlevel you let them wear the
hat.
You and just engage with themin such a special way.

(06:47):
You can see that, you aremimicking in maybe an experience
you had as a child.

John (06:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and our parks are, setaside for future generations.
That's why every opportunity Ihad when I was a ranger, I
wanted to interact with theyoung kids, not only since I was
law enforcement to take thatfear away of, dealing with a law
enforcement officer.
But to also, like I said, let'em wear a hat for a second.
And I went through several hatsduring my career because, they

(07:15):
only set up so much abuse fromthe little kids putting their
hands on it and getting stainson it or whatever like that.
And weather, of course itstarts warping hat, that I.
I just I would love justinteracting with every kid
because they, they will takethat interaction.
They may not become rangersthemselves, but they'll have
that appreciation for the publiclands.

(07:35):
And that's so important,because what we're seeing right
now especially is that threat topublic lands.
And so I'm hoping that thepeople that I interacted with,
not only on the train ride, butduring my career, those would be
the people that will startspeaking up right now and
saying, stop.
So we need to do that.
Teachers have the sameappreciation to the children,
right?
They're teaching the childrenthat, go to their classes from

(07:58):
kindergarten all the way up to12th grade and into college.
They're teaching 'em differentthings, about life, right?
And to appreciate certainthings, right?
To use those skills duringtheir life.
And that was the goal that Ihad, was to just interact as
much as I could to send thatpositive message.
If not only.
As a ranger, but to also openup their eyes to the national

(08:20):
parks that they were in to, tohave them, just see what was
around them.
A lot of these kids, a lot ofthese kids sometimes they're
first time, national parks,sometimes inner city kids,
especially at Golden Gate, wherethey had never been to a
national park before and nowthey're in one.
And to make that positivedifference is so great.
Yeah.

Missy (08:40):
It is, it's it is really special.
Okay, so we've already gotteninto it, but how would you
define the role of a parkranger?

John (08:49):
Everything and anything.
Oh my gosh, during my career Idid anything you could think of.
And that's the role.
Any given day, you have noidea.
You can go in, I used to jokewith some of the younger rangers
that they would come in, okay,what are we gonna do today?
I'm like, whatever pops up.
You can have your best laidplans, right?
And they're gonna go astray.

(09:10):
You're gonna get called to goin a rescue, a fire, whatever.
And you just have to wear thosemany hats during the day,
whether it's firefighting,whether you go on boat patrol,
whether a National Guardhelicopter comes and you have to
do an over flight with them,looking for marijuana fields.
You have to be flexible, right?
So yes, it's hard to definewhat your role is.

(09:32):
And this is not only true forlaw enforcement, but it's true
for interpretation.
They may get dragged in to yoursearch and rescue, they
volunteer, right?
We're not gonna force 'em, butthey may get dragged in.
They're also trained a lot of'em in while in firefighting,
structural firefighting, notonly interpretation, dispatch,
you just have to wear many hatsif you're working in the park

(09:52):
service.
Yep.

Missy (09:54):
I found when I was reading your book and the book
is, it's almost like readingyour journal.
It was really raw andvulnerable in the storytelling.
But you chose to put yourselfin harm's way multiple times to
help someone else or to help agroup of people.
And I found myself like.
I had to remind myself tobreathe.
Like I was so nervous for youin it.

(10:16):
And there were, middle of thenight hikes and boat rescues
where, you stayed overnight witha boat.
And and I wanna get into this Iwant you to tell all the
stories, but really I wantpeople to go by the book and
read it themselves.
But you were struck bylightning twice.
And I'm not sure I would'vegone out on a boat again after I
struck once, John.

John (10:37):
I know, right?
It takes a special person tohave to go out, after getting
struck the first time, and getstruck another two years later.
But yeah.

Missy (10:44):
Can you share a little bit of that story?
Either one.

John (10:48):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
So the first lightning strikethis was right before hurricane
was coming towards Florida,towards the East coast, and
hurricane was gigantic.
It was like the size of Texas.
Most of the weather forecasterswere saying that, the the winds
were gonna send it north.
And that's indeed whathappened.
It hit Georgia and theCarolinas pretty severely missed

(11:08):
Florida, but you're looking atthe track of the hurricane,
you're like, suckers gonna wipeout Florida.
So you don't take any chances.
'cause you can't.
So part of what you have to dois start evacuating the people
and whether they're camping in afront country campsite or
they're camping in the backcountry in the Everglades, that
would be mostly on chickies,which are little islands they

(11:30):
call 'em.
Yeah.
What they call chickies there.
But yeah, so my job that daybefore Hurricane Floyd hit was
to get on my Boston Whaler andgo out into Florida Bay and
contact people either camping orpeople on the international
waterway, and what I was findingis most people knew hurricane
was coming 'cause they have theradio and stuff like that.
This was before, really beforecell phones took off.

(11:51):
But they were monitoring it.
They had that means to do that,but you, again, you can't take
any chances.
So I left port and the portname is Flamingo, like the bird.
So I left the port and made itright out of the port when
lightning storm came and I couldnot get it back.
The only thing I could do wascomplete remission.
And and being on the openwater, you can judge where the

(12:12):
thunderheads are going becauseit Everglades, there's no
mountains, right?
So you're looking at thesetowering thunderheads and you
can follow which way the anvil'spointing.
That's direction usually thatit's going.
However, lightning can strikemany miles away.
So the whole day I justnarrowly missing like one
lightning strike after another.
And I finally I had finally hadenough, so I pulled into the

(12:35):
keys to where there's a boat inor a marina that has like a boat
in campground and also a smallrestaurant.
So I came in, filled up myBoston Whaler, went to the
restaurant, and I'm looking atthe Weather Channel while I'm
eating my hamburger.
God, this looks really bad.
I called using the park radioto my buddy back in Flamingo,
and I, his name is Bruce, and Isaid, Bruce, what's the weather

(12:56):
like?
And he is eh, it's really dark,overcast, but I'm not seeing
any lightning.
So I was like, I'm gonna try tomake it back.
And so I got in the whaler andstarted heading back towards
Flamingo.
And I was going through achannel called mana War Channel.
And so channels in the, inEverglades, they're.
Somewhat deep channels that,that kind of snake their way

(13:17):
through.
Shallow parts of the of FloridaBay and Florida Bay can get
very shallow.
You're gonna kick up mud if yougo off the channel.
So I'm navigating throughmatter of war channel, try to
pay attention to that.
I in pay attention to howutterly dark it was getting.
And last thing I rememberbefore, my heart stopped was the
lightning.

(13:38):
Just a beautiful white lightthat just was everywhere.
And I didn't feel, people saywhat did it feel like when you
got struck?
I'm like, I dunno.
I thought it was dead.
I, it was just like utterpeace, and I'm like, this kind
of feels okay.
There weren't any little angelsplaying on their hearts or
anything like that, but I waslike, this isn't too bad.

(13:58):
And then.
I dunno, whatever brought meback and I was on the deck of
the boat and in the most painI've ever been in my entire
life, there's no way to just,people always ask me, what's it
feel like to get struck bylightning?
And I'm like it depends on yourbody part and depends, where it
hit.
But it apparently went throughmy left shoulder, went across my
heart.
That's why the heart stoppedand then exited out my right arm

(14:20):
and right leg.
Yeah, coming to on the deck ofthe boat I realized that it was,
I was hurting a lot.
I couldn't put any weight in myright leg.
My right arm was useless, so Ihad a hobble to my feet and then
turn off the boat.
The boat was going the oppositedirection.
I don't know how that happened.
Maybe when I got struck, myleft hand, which was on the
wheel, turned it, but it wasweird because I was almost on

(14:44):
the north end of Manam warchannel.
I.
So I would've had to navigatethrough all that, or I would've
gotten stuck in the mud and Iwas miles south like I had just
been traveling, just how Ididn't hit anything or ground my
boat, I don't know.
And so it was first thingturning off the motor calling
dispatch and thank God my radiostill work, letting them know
that that I'd gotten struck bylightning.

(15:06):
And their first thing was, doyou want us to send somebody out
there and get you?
And I was like, no, I don'twant anyone else to get hit.
So I, I had to figure out whereI was at on the chart.
And then gradually the rightleg, it got more feeling into I
weight on it, and I decided tomake my way back myself.
So I yeah I navigated backagain.
Horrible boat ride.
Just in, in so much pain.

(15:27):
The en the entire way.
And they got me into anambulance in Flamingo.
Took me into Homestead, Floridaand to the hospital there and
did all the tests, the EG, theEKG, all that blood test.
And they're like, oh, you'repretty lucky to survive that.
I, it, it was that, and I saythat because it started a battle
with PTSD about that point, sothat, that was, you should feel,

(15:50):
lucky to be alive, but I didn'treally feel lucky, 'cause
you're just in so much painstill

Missy (15:56):
yeah.
And I my, one of my passions iswellbeing and mental

John (15:59):
Mm-hmm.

Missy (16:00):
I think one thing I, one reason I advocate for the park
so much is because I find themto be healing nature.
I use the word park veryloosely.
I think I find nature to bevery healing.
And you for the stigmas thatstill remain in it, you are very
open about your journey withall of it.
Because not only, we talked,we, you just shared the story of

(16:21):
the lightning strike, but thenwhen you think about, the
friends you've had die in theline of service.
What what almost got me to stopreading was the number of
suicides in San Francisco that,oh, and the drug overdose.
I It was just like, oh.
It was like one thing afteranother, and I wanted to be
like, please tell me, not everyone of your days was like this,

(16:43):
but you had a real battle.

John (16:46):
it was a horrible battle, and and Missy, it was like a 10
year battle for me with PTSD.
So you imagine that was, thatcovered the time when I was in
Golden Gate.
So I was dealing with my owninner struggles and then having
to see the see people's bodies,they'd float on shore after
jumping off the Golden GateBridge and I'd have to be there
until the coroner or the medicalexaminer depends if they Marin

(17:09):
County or San Francisco County,until they arrived on scene.
And then dealing with the drugoverdoses, purposeful or
accidental drug overdoses.
And it takes such a toll onpeople.
And the reason why I'm so open,with that battle is I just
don't want others to sufferneedlessly, get help, get
treatment.
It's effective.
You gotta stick with it.

(17:30):
And it can be very painful'cause it opens up a lot of
wounds.
But but yeah that's why I'vebeen such an outspoken, just
advocate of just help yourself.
'cause if you don't, you can'thelp anybody else.
Yeah.

Missy (17:42):
And I, the other thing I noticed was how supportive your
peers were and your friendswere, and how it, it felt like
in reading your stories, thatyou had so much support going
into it and surrounding you,which was really

John (17:57):
I did.
I did.
I lost a few friends, fewcoworkers along the way.
And I don't know if it was justI think probably they were
battling their own demons in astyle, in a sense where, hearing
from me may just, maybe they'relike, I don't wanna hear
anymore, don't wanna hearanymore.
And they were probably the onesthat kind of needed to get help
themselves.
But I just, I shared witheveryone who wanted to listen,

(18:18):
with the trainees that I had asa field training officer, I
would take him to, to differentspots where one guy that had
jumped committed suicide, Iwould take him to that area just
to show them be careful, themistake that I did.
I tried to reach for him beforehe jumped off the cliff and I
just, just tell my trainees,don't do that.
Don't, you know you want tosave everybody, but in that case

(18:40):
be very careful because theymay take you with them.

Missy (18:42):
And I forget who it was that was, that you were talking
to afterwards in, in the storywhen you told it in the book,
but when they said to you, no,don't be hard on yourself for
not being able to grab him.
He probably would've taken youwith him.
And it was like this Oh, kindof moment.
Even as a reader, it was like,oh my gosh.

John (19:01):
yeah, exactly right.
It I struggled with that somuch until I had that
realization that he would'vekilled you, and it wasn't that
he was homicidal, he wanted tocommit suicide that day.
And whether I would've grabbedhim or not, he would've brought
me down there with them.
So I did everything that Icould, and it was just at the
wrong place at the wrong time.

(19:22):
Kinda like my career in asense.
Sometimes at the wrong place atthe wrong time then,

Missy (19:27):
At the wrong end of a lightning bolt, or,

John (19:31):
but then you just gotta make the boat the best of it.
And just, you gotta keep goingon, right?

Missy (19:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of yourstories do talk about that, but
it's not all, lightning boltsand rescuing people.
There were a lot of fun stories

John (19:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.

Missy (19:48):
And the beauty and I think the like I went to, I
loved when you spent so muchtime on the Everglades.
'cause I have recently beenthere, so it was very fresh to
me.
But I had, did not spend a lotof time in Northern Cascades.
And it's really interestingbecause there's parks that I
like, I just don't, I don'tnecessarily enjoy, but everybody
I talk to loves them.
And I usually go, okay, I wannagive that one another try

(20:10):
because.
I trust this person and maybemy energy was off, or the
weather was off, or I don't likecrowds.
That part can get very crowded.
And but you tell, the way youtell the stories, it's like
you're, it's like I was there.
It's really, and there's partsof it where you'll talk about,
you were talking about RockyMountain at some point, and I
was like, I didn't even knowthey had that.
I have to go back.

(20:31):
But do you have any sort offavorite let's go, like a
favorite like favorite momentsor highlights from your career
that you're like, these are thelike, joyful things I'm gonna
remember and take with me.

John (20:43):
Oh gosh.
Really so many.
Really a lot.
I remember going to a Rosie theRiver.
It was a detail that I went toRosie the Riveter, and it was on
the East Bay where Rosie theRiveter side is at.
And so they sent me withanother ranger out there because
they were trying to break theworld record for the number of
Rosies under one roof.
And we did, of course, that gotbroken again, and I think it's

(21:04):
a site in Michigan, I think thatnow has the record.
But anyway I remember going tothat and there was a little girl
who was dressed.
She hadn't been.
Seven, eight years old.
She was dressed as a Rosie theRiveter.
So cute.
And I was outside the venue andshe came running over to me and
I bent down on one knee and shecomes up and her mom was like,

(21:26):
oh, I'm so sorry.
And I'm like, don't be, I said,good for her.
And we ended up getting apicture taken.
It's moments like that or Iremember a young boy that was
with his mom in my absolutefavorite coffee shop.
So if any of your listeners arego to San Francisco, go to Art
Bistro, they are the best coffeeshop, best ladies that run the
place.
Anyway, I was in their oldlocation, which is on Gary

(21:48):
Boulevard and just waiting formy regular cup of Mocha, which I
always have.
And a mom and her son comewalking in and the son was just
looking up at me like, mouth,agate, eyes wide open.
And I said, how are you?
He's good, boy's shaking andstuff.
And I'm like, I got somethingfor you in my patrol vehicle.

(22:08):
Can you wait right here?
So I went running with Makaback to my patrol vehicle and I
had ordered through VFSolutions, which is the uniform
supply company for parks.
It's the game in the parkservices.
You spend as much as youpossibly can of the stipend that
you get every year.
And whoever gets as close asthey can without going over and

(22:29):
spending their own money buys,like everyone else a beer,
right?
Yeah.
So I had a few bucks left and Ibought these brass buttons that
go on, like the Ike jacket.
It's that dress uniform jacketrangers sometimes wear.
So I had these brass buttonsthat I bought and I came back
and I gave him a handful ofbrass buttons and his eyes just
got huge and wide.

(22:50):
And I told him the jacket thatit goes on and how special they
are and stuff like that.
I, and I thought, yeah, it madea difference in the kids' life.
A couple months later, I seehis mom, he's not there, I think
he's in school or whatever likethat.
And his mom said, you made suchan impression on him.
He's she said that he tookthose brass buttons with him
while him and his dad did likethis, like week long backpack

(23:13):
trip.
And he kept those buttons withhim the entire trip.
And that was like hismotivation to finish it.
So that's, those are themoments for me that, that made
my career just so amazing.

Missy (23:25):
I love it.
That's special.
So in every episode when we'retalking to a park, we talk about
how do you plan a visit to thatspecific park?
And I find this to be a uniqueopportunity to talk to you as a
ranger, to get your perspectiveon broadly how do people plan a
trip into a park.
So what are your tips forsomebody that has never been to

(23:47):
one of our parks?

John (23:48):
That's a great question.
First of all is how are yougonna get there?
This park may be acrosscountry, so look at your budget,
see what you can afford howyou're gonna get there, if it's
gonna be a rental car orwhatever like that.
Do you need campingreservations?
Check online for the park, andyou can just go nps.gov.
And then it'll give you a wholelist of parks.
So see if you need campingreservations, see if you need

(24:10):
back country reservations, ifyou're gonna go back country
camping.
So look at all that.
See what type of ranger ledprograms are gonna be going on.
Maybe you can tailor your tripto that.
Plan all that.
Are you gonna be camping in atent in the campground?
Are you gonna be using go intoone of the lodges in the

(24:31):
national park?
Are you gonna be doingbackcountry camping?
So you have to plan whicheverone of those you're gonna do, or
maybe a combination of them.
So don't over plan though,that's me.
I'm a total over planter.
Try to just go with it.
And especially when you get tothe park, try to have half day
or even a full day of doingabsolutely nothing.

(24:52):
Unwind.
All of us bring all thisgarbage from the cities with us.
We have our phones, we have,all these technical devices,
which are fine.
But you, when you get to apark.
Just unwind.
Give yourself half day to a daybefore you start doing
anything, just unwind.
Because guaranteed, if you getto the park and then you want to
hit that trail immediately,you're gonna carry that baggage

(25:14):
with you for a while, maybe therest of that day, right?
So try to avoid that.
Set up your tent, go on a shorthike, maybe go to a ranger led
tour.
Just hang, just pull out yoursleeping bag and sleeping pad
outside your tent and just lookup at the sky, do whatever.

Missy (25:32):
So I love your idea about the holding space.
And when I was on my year longtrip, I was in Yosemite, and
Yosemite is one of those parkswhere you, it's a lot of, I
shoulds, you know what youshould do, you know what you
should do.
And now I'm like, I don't evenlisten to, if you say should to
me, like I shut down.
Everybody's telling me thesehikes I should take.
And I woke up one day and I waslike, but I don't want to.

(25:52):
And I took my chair and Ipacked a cooler and I got my
binoculars and I went and satunder El Capitan.
And I spent eight hours talkingto people and looking up and
watching people climb the sideof the rock face.
And it was one of the mostspectacular days because I just
let it happen.

John (26:10):
Yes.

Missy (26:11):
And we don't get to do that very often.

John (26:13):
We don't allow ourselves to let that happen.
Yeah.

Missy (26:16):
I love that.
What do you advise people?
Because I find most of the timefor me, I'm back out on the
road again and I'm experiencingagain where there's a lot of
fears and so I just don't dostuff and I'm really having to
talk myself down from 'em.
But I think one of the thingsthat Parks offer is new
experiences and activities.
What's your advice for peopleand what resources do parks

(26:39):
offer if you are contemplatingsomething new that you've never
done before?

John (26:45):
I say go for it.
And it's absolutely right.
We all have fears, right?
And it's, I'm not gonna tell aperson, oh, you need to overcome
your fear by doing this orthat, or whatever.
Here's just a quick, forexample I've tried climbing half
to own the cables twice, andmaybe I'll do it again.
I don't know.
But but anyway, while I was thefirst time I was just chilling
with my son he was having alittle bit of an anxiety attack

(27:08):
at the base of the cables andstuff like that.
So I chose.
Not to go up myself.
I'm just like, I'm gonna staywith you.
This is more important.
But and the second time I madeit up about a third of the way
and my shoes were awful.
And I was like, I don't wannadie today on these cables.
But anyway, both occasions Iwas able to see people
interacting with each other atthe base of the cables.

(27:29):
A few of 'em I helped and justif you don't wanna do it, don't
do it.
Let's just sit here, let's justlook for a while.
But I noticed some people werejust egging other people on.
Just do it.
Just overcome your fear.
It's not like that.
It isn't.
And that can actually can makeyour fear a lot worse by trying
to do that.
So understand what your fearsare, and then understand that it

(27:49):
may take a lot to overcome it alot.
Usually it's gradual.
But there's also the fear thatwe all have of, when people
arrive to some of the wildernessnational parks, the oh, you're
camping in your tent.
Oh my God, what was that crack?
The twig that was cracking inthe middle of the night.
It's a bear.
Well, chances are great.
It's not, it was a squirrel ora bird, but it's good to

(28:10):
experience that type of fear ina sense, right?
Because it brings us back tothat primal fear, and that's the
beauty of the National Park.
So when people, if you do go toa park, say you want to go to
Everglades, you've never been ona canoe before.
There's Ranger led canoe tripsand they'll show you at
everything you get, wear A PFD,so if you don't know how to
swim, in fact, most of thosetrips you need to, if it's

(28:33):
ranger led, you have to wear aPFD, right?
A personal Flo.

Missy (28:36):
yeah, I was gonna

John (28:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Missy (28:37):
flirtation device.

John (28:38):
But don't worry, like how to paddle.
Like I've seen some reallyunique paddling on canoes and
kayaks.
Don't worry about it.
You're not gonna get lost on arange of lead tour.
You may have a, an encounterwith an alligator, but it
usually won't hurt you.
So yeah.
So understand what you wannado, understand.
Are you okay doing that?

(28:58):
You don't have to pressureyourself to overcome that fear.
Maybe just show up and maybehave a fear of alligators have
that fear, but instead ofgetting on that canoe and
overcoming that fear, maybe justsit at that water's edge for a
while, and just look and see,oh, other people are going into
the water not getting attackedby alligators.
This should be okay.
So I just encourage everybodyjust, try to plan a little bit,

(29:21):
try to see what you want to do,and the range LED tours, again,
are great.
There's also concessional tourswhere you usually have to pay
money to go on, and it's thosewomen and men that work in those
jobs who, they're there toprotect you.
They don't want anyone gettinghurt.
So that's a good way to not toconquer your fear but maybe to
experience new things, that youmay have a little bit of anxiety

(29:43):
about.
And that may help you overcomethat.
So look at all the resourcesthat your national parks,
monuments, historical sides,recreation areas, look at the
resources that they have, andthen plan accordingly.
Yeah.

Missy (29:57):
And another role that you as Rangers play is on is about
safety.
And I I guess what can peopledo?
Again, this is somewhat of afear for a lot of people I've
talked to too, but how canpeople best prepare for their
own safety when they're in, whenthey're getting ready for a
trip in the park?

John (30:16):
Oh my.
So you know, like even ifyou're going on a short hike,
bring the 10 essentials withyou, right?
Bring that you don't have tooverpack if you're going for a
mile or two, but be prepared.
Please be prepared for that.
Especially now this year andprobably in the years ahead,
it's never been great budgetwise.

(30:36):
It's even worse now and evenworse with the number of
personnel that are out there.
Don't go above your comfortlevel, right?
If you have.
Any health issues you may notwant to do that two week
wonderful and trail backpack,right?
Maybe you wanna do somethingshorter, right?
Always and always let peopleknow where you're going.
That is a failing that I'veseen so many times, is they

(30:59):
never let anyone know wherethey're going to, what
backcountry site they're goingto, what trail they're gonna be
on when they are due to comeback.
And we used to get calls of anoverdue party, and we'd have to
look and hopefully they have abackcountry permit so we can go
to those backcountry sites andsee if they're there.
Other times it's a husband,wife sniff and other grown child
calling and saying, Hey, my momor dad or whatever they're

(31:21):
overdue.
Were they going to, I dunno,somewhere in your park.
If you look at, if you look atthe Everglades, the Everglades
is the largest wilderness eastof the Mississippi.
It's gigantic.
My district alone, flamingodistrict was 500,000 acres.
So let people know where you'regoing to and when you're gonna,
when you're gonna be back, whatcar you're driving, all that

(31:42):
stuff.
Yeah.

Missy (31:42):
Yeah.
And sometimes it, that takes alot of effort.
On a previous episode I shareda story that I was at Sequoia
and I had to drive an hour toget a cell signal to be able to
tell somebody where I was going,just to drive back.
But it's really important

John (31:56):
It really is.
It's so worth it.
And let a Ranger know too.
I don't,

Missy (31:59):
that okay?
Is that I always feel like I'ma burden.

John (32:02):
You're not at all.
We would rather, I'm retired,but I'm still speaking as we,
but we would rather know youritinerary and you can even write
down on a post-it.
Just write on a post-it, themake of your car model when
you're leaving, what trailheadyou're going out on, what sites
you're gonna see in the backcountry, and you'll probably get
a backcountry permit.
So they know that already butgive them that information.

(32:24):
They will be more than happyand emergency contact as well.
Put some numbers, not just one,but maybe several people that,
people that we can call if wehave to,

Missy (32:33):
And if you and who do you give that to?
Just any ranger or you go tothe visitor center or,

John (32:37):
visitor center's probably the best.
Yeah.
Just go to a visitor centerusually where you get your
backcountry permits at.
And just talk to any rangerthat they will get the
information to who.

Missy (32:45):
And should you do that just if you're back country or
even if you're doing one of the,one of the smaller trails, like
as a solo person

John (32:52):
I would definitely, yeah.
Even, oh yeah.
Even like a, especially solo, Iwould definitely let somebody
know where you're going.
Let a ranger know and make sureto check in when you're back.
Some people don't do that andit's oh my gosh.
Then

Missy (33:06):
I see that on the backcountry trails.
We haven't talked about this,but so everybody knows when, a
lot of times when you're doing abackcountry, either you need a
permit or in some of thesecommunities, not national parks,
but maybe in the forest orsomething, they'll have a stand
where you, before you go on thetrail, you write everything down
and you leave a copy there andyou put a copy

John (33:24):
yeah.
Yep.

Missy (33:26):
And I come back all the time and I see people not
checking that they've come backand I'm like that kind of
defeats the purpose of this

John (33:34):
It totally does.
And I've been on a lot of wildgoose chases a lot

Missy (33:38):
bet you have.

John (33:38):
where, oh yeah.
Where, and this has happenedmore than once, where usually
it's a significant other callingand saying, Hey, so and so is
supposed to be home.
They're not here.
And then.
You go look in the parking lotand what type of vehicle were
they driving?
I don't know.
They flew there and they got arental car, but they didn't tell
me what rental car.
So then it's what do they likedoing?
So then you start asking thequestions.

(33:58):
What trails do you think theywould go on?
Or like Everglades, what area?
Florida Bay, whitewater BayHills Bay.
Do you know what areas theylike, have they talked about in
the past?
And then, you do what's calleda hasty search.
You send a ranger out, usuallyby herself, himself to check
some of these areas just to seeif you might be in luck, but

(34:18):
more than a couple times.
Yeah they finished their trip,didn't let anyone know and
decided to party in town.
Oh, let's go to Miami and partythere.
It's oh my gosh, I wish I couldcharge you

Missy (34:30):
I know, like the resource, the resources that,
that drains.
And we'll get into, we'll getinto what's going on now in, in
a minute.
But I think the resources that,that drains in a normal time,
but particularly now is just,

John (34:41):
Oh it's unacceptable.

Missy (34:42):
yeah, it is.
Okay.
So I, this is totally selfish.
I had this experience, thislast week I was on a hike in
Georgia and a mom comes runningup to me completely panicked.
My 6-year-old son was runningahead of me on the trail, and he
got out of sight and now wedon't know where he is.
And of course, immediatelyeverybody she's told is.

(35:05):
On the trail, keeping an eyeout.
We were in a campground area,so a fairly secure area, he was
quickly found, and taken backhome.
But I thought to myself, I'venever asked, what do you do in
that?
What do you, what does mom doin that situation?
Because at that point, shehadn't even called arranger.
And I was like, no, that's Iwould've called, that'd be the

(35:25):
first one.
But what do, what does mom doin that situation?
And then what do I, as a, she'stold me, how can I help do in
that situation?

John (35:34):
So the mom should, the mom knows the child and knows
probably what the child likes,doesn't like and things like
that.
So the mom should stay there,not run back and call the
ranger.
That's where I would send if asa parent, I would send you and
I'd say, here's my child'sdescription.
If you have something to writeit down, or maybe the cell
phone, they can write it down orwhatever like that.

(35:54):
Whatever works.
Write down the child'sdescription, how old they are.
Anything you can think aboutthe child, right?
What nickname they go by.
Anything.
Give that to the other person.
Send that other person down tomake the call.
That parent should stay thereon scene and don't, please don't
go looking all over the placefor sure.
The best thing to do is try tostay on the main trail.

(36:15):
Don't go off the trail, andyour child probably be just
ahead or maybe just off thetrail.
Maybe they're, you see thebathroom off the trail, you
didn't see them or anything likethat.
Now.
To be proactive.
Tell your child, and childrenwill be children.
They'll run ahead or they'll,meander behind and then next
thing you know, they're lost.
I lost my son, who's 23.
And toys are us.

(36:36):
It happens.
It happens.
So tell your child hug a tree.
I know that sounds like weird,but it works.
Like I told my my niece whenshe was a little girl, if you
ever get lost in the woods, huga tree.
She got lost one time and shehugged a tree and they found her
and she says, uncle John toldme to do this.
So hug, literally tell them,hug a tree.

(36:59):
Don't move

Missy (37:00):
Is that?
Is that it?
You just, they, you don't want,once they realize that they're
lost, you don't want them tomove any

John (37:05):
I don't want 'em to move because, people think, and it's
not just children, it's adults.
They get lost and you'll seethem like going in circles,
literally in circles.
And it's oh gosh, just stay.
The only exception is if, Iwant you to stay in place.
If you're near a cliff or ifyou're in danger of falling
further down a cliff, secureyourself.
But please don't go, don'tfollow the water downhill.

(37:27):
'cause it'll lead to a towntype of nonsense.
No, stay where you're at.
Don't move because if we have,like I said, we'll do a hasty
search first.
That's the last known LOlocation and just, we don't veer
off the trail, but we'll send aperson out there first to do a
hasty search and then comes theteam, but the team can beat.
It was several hours later in,and especially now with all the

(37:49):
cuts that we've had to the parkservice and stuff like that to
the employees not having theirjobs.
But help is coming.
Best thing is stay put right?
Stay put.
Don't go.
Bear grill us and start makinga lean to shelter and hunting
rabbits or whatever.
No, park your buns, buy a treeand just sit there.
Literally sit there.

Missy (38:10):
And this is why I think like I think people, when you
say pack, extra water and packextra snacks, people think
that's silly.
It's just a three mile hike.
I do a lot of hiking on theeast coast.
I live in Virginia and falltime, you can't tell where a
trail is when leaves are fallingor when there's snow on the
ground or something.
And it's really easy to getlost.

John (38:30):
it?
No, it is.
When I was up in Acadia lastfall oh, yeah.
I found out really quickly whatis that?
That's when those trees wherethe leaves start falling down
and you're up there and it'slike, where did the trail go to?
And then I started realizing,oh, they paint the tree trunks,
and you just follow the pain.
I'm like, oh my God.
I was like, almost to a pointof getting lost until I found
Okay.
That's what they use there.

(38:52):
They use the markings on thetrees and stuff like that, but
yeah.
Yeah.
It happens.

Missy (38:56):
So what conversations, particularly I'm thinking kids,
but it's probably duplicate.
What conversations should youhave in advance to prepare your
kids for a safe trip to a park?

John (39:08):
Get 'em a whistle.
It, yeah.
Buy your kids.
All your kids buy 'em whistles.
Carry a few extra in yourpocket.
Any whistle.
Because shouting, it's justlike talking.
If you talk long enough.
All of a sudden your voice getsraspy and stuff like that.
And your shouts aren't gonnacarry, they're not gonna carry
very far anyway.
A whistle will carry miles.
So give them a whistle and tell'em if you're in trouble, blow

(39:31):
that whistle and keep blowing ituntil help gets there.
So tell 'em that.
Tell 'em that they're gonna begoing into an environment which
they may not have muchexperience in, if any.
So tell 'em like campfire, Iknow it sounds silly, but like
even campfire safety rules, donot run around a campfire.
The number of kids that I hadto respond as an EMT, the ones

(39:52):
that fell into the fires, theirhands badly burned.
It's horrible.
Or just the slip trips andfalls.
Kids are gonna have slips,trips and falls, so as a parent,
bring a first aid kit with youbring something to clean the
wound.
It could be an issue if you'reout backcountry camping for a
while and you got a wound that'snot clean properly.
So anyway, tell your kids thebasics.
You get lost.

(40:13):
Hug a tree, blow a whistle, becareful around things.
It's not, you have tocommunicate to the kid at their
level what they're gonna beexperiencing out there.
You don't want 'em to be, youdon't want 'em to be so
paranoid.
They're like, I'm not goingnow.
This is too scary.
But but just be honest withthem, just prepare your kids,
but don't make 'em paranoid.
Let 'em have fun and let 'em bekids.

Missy (40:34):
It is nice.
In part in so many parks I'mat, it's like the one time kids
can be kids and carefree andthere, it's really fun, fun to
see.
I'm gonna shift gears a littlebit because there's a lot
happening right now and you andI are both very busy advocating
and protesting for our parks.
Can we just talk a minute,maybe you can talk like, what's

(40:55):
going on?

John (40:57):
Literally every day that I look at the news and know I see
something else I know a lot ofyour listeners, they may or may
not be aware, initially whenthis administration took power
and January, it's oh, no moreseasonals.
So they're, seasonals, werewaiting for their jobs and all
of a sudden there's no jobs.
They that got walked back and,oh no, seasonal, we can hire 'em

(41:18):
again.
But then they cut Park serviceemployees, who were probationary
employees.
So that's not just newbies intothe park.
That could be people who, gotthat supervisor promotion that
they've been waiting for years.
They're probationary employees,so they just got fired just
like that.
And yes.
Did a lot of those people gettheir jobs back or job offers?

(41:41):
Yes.
But what your listeners need toreally realize is a lot of
these parks are remote andyou're in what's called either
required occupancy or permittedoccupancy.
And that means you are livingin government quarters.
If you lose your job, you loseyour house.
And so when these men and womenlost their jobs, they had to

(42:01):
pack everything into a trailer,into their car, into their
truck, and drive wherever momand dad's to a friend's place to
crash on the couch, whatever.
So they lost the house andtheir job.
And then they said, and thenthey got an email saying, oh,
sorry, you're back again.
In some cases they were like,the heck with this, I, I'm gonna

(42:21):
go do something else.
And I don't blame 'em for that.
Other times they made their wayback, they had to unpack
everything only then to getevery day emails that said, oh,
retire now or else, take thisvoluntary separation from duty
or else, so that's what's goingon right now is, and not just

(42:41):
park park Service employees.
I'm just speaking for that'cause I was a Ranger.
But all public lands employees,all federal employees, or
they're going through so muchright now and it.
Not many federal employees makedecent wages.
They don't it's pretty subsubstandard housing.
It's really substandard wageswhen you compare it to other job
skills that say, cities andtowns, counties pay states pay,

(43:05):
so they're going through so muchturmoil.
Yeah.

Missy (43:08):
When we talk about seasonal, it's not just the
person who's, serving yourconcession or the person at the
gate.
So your interest is gonna be alittle longer.
Like this includes the peoplewho are gonna find you if you
get lost.
This includes the scientistsand researchers that are keeping
our animals alive and ourpeople safe, and our plants

(43:30):
growing.
And this is a major impact.
These are very high levelskilled positions that are just
gone and back and just inconstant flux.
And the other story that isabout, cutting of trees and now
they're opening up land for thisto take place.
And, this is going to impactcertainly the park and the fun

(43:53):
and the recreation, but also ouroxygen, our, animal life.
Where are animals gonna go whenthey don't have their, so this
is, it's a big issue and it's animportant issue.
The other one that, that, thatis very important to me 'cause
I've really fallen in love withthe historical preservation of
our parks, is the history thatis being rewritten in the parks.

(44:14):
And, I'm hoping that the Parkspodcast plays us at least a role
in helping to preserve somestories.
I think it's really importantthat we're all out there
learning the truth.

John (44:24):
Absolutely.
Oh my gosh.
The the removal of importantpeople from like National Park
websites is horrible, horrific.
Harriet Tubman, I think was thelatest example of that where
they just removed and then they,oh, let's put her back on
there.
But other than that, theBuffalo Soldiers who played a
critical role in the Nationalparks and having them taken out

(44:48):
from the history andwhitewashing history and making
it, I've always been a historybuff myself, and history needs
to be told the way that ithappened.
You may not like it, it maymake it like reading my book for
instance.
It makes you feel like, Ooh, Idon't know if I can, I need to
breathe.
This is some crazy stuff thathe's going through, but it's
history.

(45:08):
You, everyone needs to toappreciate that.
And it may be it, not thehistory that you were taught,
but it's history that needs tobe told.
For sure.
And there's a lot, oh my God,that the number of women and
men, persons of color, that,that are being just erased.
It's just it's horrible.

Missy (45:26):
It's horrible.
And I think the National ParkService, maybe not historically,
but in recent history, has donea really good job of just
telling the story.
And they have had as a country,they have had to tell some
stories that do not shine themin the best light.

John (45:43):
Absolutely.

Missy (45:44):
and it's really even hard for me on the podcast.
'cause I can't talk toShenandoah National Park without
talking to them about how theytook land from, the people of
Appalachia and, Yeah.
it's really important and it'sobviously very near and dear to
my heart.
And your heart and thankfullymillions of others who show up
for regular protests.

(46:05):
Yeah.
Okay, so a lot is happening.
What can we do?
What can we common park goercitizen do to to advocate for
our parks, but also to helpparks on our visits?

John (46:20):
Fight n never give up the fight.
So what can you do when you getto a national park is thank a
Ranger.
And again law enforcement,search and rescue dispatch,
interpretation, maintenance.
Thank them.
It's, it was so rare in mycareer to get thanked and I
didn't do it.
I didn't do it for that.
I did it because I was servingthe public and I was protecting

(46:41):
our parks.
But every little thank you thatI got, so much so please it,
it's a horrible whole over timeright now for park service
employees.
Let them know that you care.
Give 'em a genuine thank you.
And that again, for all publicplans, employees, let them know
when you're home advocate forthe national parks, the public
lands for the employees.

(47:02):
Show up at protest, and I getpeople have different comfort
levels.
I get that.
If you can't go to a protest,write, email, call all the
above, dear representatives,please do that.
Even, here's an example.
So Presidio is part of theNational Park system.
It's in San Francisco.
And we have a an assemblymember, Katherine Stephanie,

(47:25):
who's great, so she's state,she's not federal.
But I was advocating for thePresidio the last time that I
saw her at a function, justsaying, please do what she can,
because she recreates there.
She takes her family to thePresidio.
So her voice is so powerful, sodon't give up on your state
representatives.
Include them in theconversation as well.

(47:46):
Make it so that they don't haveto read between the lines.
Be direct with them and say, Iunderstand you love to hunt to
fish, to hike what, whatever itis.
Do a little bit of research onyour representatives.
Find out what they like.
And it's the same even ifyou're your senator, your
congressperson is Republican andthey may be going along with
everything like that.
Make it personal to them.
Go on their Facebook site, goon threads, whatever, social

(48:09):
media, find out a little bitabout them again, do they like
to hunt, hike fish boat and makeit personal for them so they
can understand that, that, oh,this might affect me as well
taking my family out there andme going with my buddies out
hunting.
Yeah, it's gonna affect you.
It really will.
Like the logging threat that'sgoing on right now, with our

(48:30):
national parks and nationalforest.
It's okay, what, people saythere's a lot of, timber out
there.
What is, what's it gonna what'sit gonna do?
A lot of things, you hadtouched on it briefly, Missy,
about air quality.
That's our air purifiers.
You're taking away that thenyour air quality is gonna go
downhill.
It's wildlife habitat, whichpeople say it's wildlife
habitat, blah, blah, blah.

(48:50):
Do you hunt and do you fish?
If you don't have thathillside, you're gonna have a
lot of debris that's gonna chokethe rivers and the streams.
Your fish population's gonnaplummet.
You're gonna find that, thespecies that you go out and
hunt.
They're gonna die.
That there won't be thatvegetation for them to eat.
You're gonna find that if theycut down like the older trees,

(49:12):
that's not gonna, it's not gonnado the good that they think
when it comes to preventingforest fires.
It's actually the opposite, canyou log responsibly?
National forest absolutely can,and they're doing that right
now and most of the time.
But do you really want, say theUnited States equivalent of the
Amazon Rainforest and Brazil,just cutting down so many trees,

(49:33):
their air quality's gone down,the quality of the water, your
soil, all that's gone down.
literal listeners know,advocate anywhere and everywhere
that you possibly can protest.
If you can do that, pleaseprotest.
You don't have to travel to DClike I did.
But if you want to do it,

Missy (49:51):
There's something there every weekend.

John (49:52):
absolutely there is.
Yeah.

Missy (49:54):
And I, the other thing I think when people talk about how
do you find out, your socialsyou share a lot of stuff and
you're, remind me lightning.

John (50:04):
Oh, lightning ever?

Missy (50:05):
Lightning Never.
And I'll tag it.
Parks podcast shares it.
We aired an episode with SandraRamos, she's sharing it with
National Park Patch Lady.
And so there's a lot of people,and I think I'm just gonna
offer this up because I feellike you would agree with me.
If you wanna know something,just direct message, either of
us, and we'll tell you what weknow.

(50:25):
We'll point you in the rightdirection.
The other one is resistanceRangers.

John (50:29):
Yes they're great.

Missy (50:30):
they are great.
They are

John (50:31):
Yeah.
Indivisible is good too.
50 51 is good.
And please share.
You can even share mypersonally email.
That's fine.
If anyone, and that can be notonly supporting the public
lands, but if they have anyquestions that I can help them
with about Park, just let meknow.
I'm happy to answer.

Missy (50:47):
Okay, that's great.
Now, when it comes to going toparks, you hear stories about
prepare for longer lines, maybetake a trash bag and pick up
trash on your trail.
Are there services that weshould just know there?
They're gonna be different thisyear and maybe for a couple of
years?

John (51:04):
Yeah.
No.
All of them will.
Yeah it, certainly I preparefor longer lines.
If you can get there later inthe day or early morning, a
avoid that.
Check online to see if you needreservations to even enter into
a national park when you getthere.
Absolutely.
Bring a trash bag with yougloves, little trash picker,
anything.
Careful, don't pick up somestuff, right?

(51:24):
You're gonna leave that behindfor maintenance.
But do what you can pick, evenif you're going on a trail,
bring a trash bag with you.
Pick up trash.
I know, not yours, do theenvironment a favor and help out
where you can.
Bring your toilet paper

Missy (51:39):
That's my big one.
Some toilet paper and some handgel.

John (51:42):
Oh I would bring both.
'cause you may find therestrooms aren't gonna be as
clean as you would want 'em tobe, and they may not have total
paper, especially the ones youmay or may not find in the back
country.
Please bring that no leave notrace principles, right?
If you're going out likebackcountry camping, bring a
little plastic t trail thatdoesn't wave very much.
Just dispose of your waste awayfrom bodies of water, away from

(52:06):
the trail.
Dig a small cat hole fo followthe regulations that are in the
park, right?
You don't wanna do that,obviously, if you're in Mount
Rainier climbing on, a snowfield.
You don't wanna dig your waist,you wanna pack it out.
So know what the localconditions are and be prepared.
Please be prepared, you hadmentioned earlier about like
cell phones and stuff like that,you may not have coverage,

(52:27):
right?
So there's other options thatare out there.
I don't want your listeners togo spend a couple hundred bucks
on a SAF phone, something toconsider if you're going like on
the the Wilderness Waterway andEverglades or the Wonderland
Trail.
And Matt Rainier might wannabring one of those just to get
out that, that distress signal,right?
And bring a portable chargerwith you.
Something, they have solarchargers that you can bring now,

(52:50):
right?
So bring something like thatbecause guaranteed your phone's
gonna proudly die.
And bring a map encompass,please bring a map encompass to
learn how to use it.

Missy (52:59):
I know I need to learn how to use it better.
I need a class for that.
The, and the one thing I wastelling somebody my niece is
planning a trip and she's donesome stuff, but usually with her
dad and whatnot.
So I don't think her experiencelevel is great.
And she was talking about whereshe wanted to go on this hiking
trip and and I was like, mayor,that's back country.
And I think what, in light ofyour experience and what's going

(53:21):
on, you can still go on abeautiful hike on one of the
more popular trails, but let'snot make it a bigger issue.
If something were to happen toyou people, you might not get
help the way you think youshould.
And, let's just be a little bitmore realistic on our abilities
this year.

John (53:38):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
That's like for every year likehalf to 'em.
Again, bring up that example.
And I was seeing people like, Igive them kudos for their
courage, but they were walkingup carrying like Costco water
bottles and like they werecarrying just one bottle of
water for, see if you're goingfrom the Yosemite Valley, it's
like 16, 17 miles round trip,one bottle of water and no, no

(54:01):
sun protection, no hat, no goodequipment.
And a couple of 'em on thejourney, I'd say, Hey, next time
might not be a bad thing to, tobring some extra gear with you.
Oh, if I get hurt, they canjust, carry me out.
And I'm like, no, they don't.
Not in yo.
You're not understanding.

(54:21):
They're gonna put you on what'scalled a long line and you're,
you're gonna be in a safetyharness, but you're gonna be
outside the helicopter flying,down into the valley where they
can get you in an ambulance.
I said, it's not fun and you'reprobably gonna be spinning, why
you're up there.
We're gonna try to make it soyou don't, but it's not a
comfortable ride.
It's not a joy ride.
Understand, like you weresaying, miss understand your

(54:44):
skillset and any limitations.
And maybe this isn't the yearto be doing that big back
country trip.
And if you do be prepared

Missy (54:53):
yeah.
You had made some remarks infront of the Lincoln Memorial
and they made my socials goviral, which was very wonderful
to see how much it was shared,but they were so powerful.
I was wondering if you wouldmind reading them for our
audience today.

John (55:10):
I would be happy to.
I actually, I printed them out,so I don't have to be looking
at my phone as I'm reading, butYes.
So this was my DC protestspeech, and this was given on
the steps of the LincolnMemorial.
I stand before you at theSacred place, a monument to a
leader who fought for justice,unity, and the very soul of our
nation.
I stand here not as apolitician, but as a retired

(55:32):
ranger.
Many years ago, I took an oathto protect our lands, uphold the
law, and serve the people ofthis nation.
Today I'm here to honor thatoath.
I had the privilege of servingalongside some of the most
dedicated and selflessindividuals, national Park
Service rangers, who devotetheir lives to preserving the

(55:52):
beauty history and very essenceof our country.
I.
From the glaciers of MountRainier to the vast wetlands of
the Everglades, from the ruggedpeaks of the North Cascades to
the urban beauty of Golden Gate,I witness their unwavering
commitment to safeguarding theplaces that belong to all of us.
I carry their stories with me.

(56:13):
I carry the memory of those whosacrifice their safety, their
wellbeing, and even their lives.
Phil Otis, Sean Ryan, MargaretAnderson, Nick Hall, to name
just a few.
They gave everything to protectour public lands in the
millions who visit them, and Istand with them still because
they deserve more than words ofgratitude.
They deserve action, respect,and unwavering support.

(56:37):
We gather here today out oflove for our public lands, but
love demands, responsibility.
It demands that we raise ourvoices when those ideals are
threatened, when the stewards ofour lands are ignored, when the
places we treasure are placedat risk.
I traveled here from SanFrancisco to Chicago, then from

(56:59):
New York to Washington, DC bytrain.
I could have flown, but Iwanted to reconnect with our
country at ground level, not at30,000 feet.
Along the way, I met peoplewith differing political views,
yet all shared a love for ourpublic lands.
I told in the realities whatrangers do.
I told them about the two timesI was struck by lightning about

(57:21):
the A assaults I endured in theline of duty about the hospital
visits, the surgeries, and thePTSD.
I told them about the lives Isaved and the ones I couldn't,
and I told them I did it not forthe money, but because I
believed in making a difference.
Then I told 'em about the menand women who have also
dedicated their lives to ourpublic lands and to the people

(57:44):
who visit them only to havetheir jobs taken away, not
because of per performance, butbecause their names appeared on
a Doge spreadsheet.
This administration is guttingour public land workforce under
the illusion of saving a fewdollars.
What they don't understand isthat public lands aren't a cost.
They're an investment.
They contribute 2.2% of ournation's GDP.

(58:09):
That's $1.1 trillion in 2022alone.
According to the Bureau ofEconomic Analysis, I will not
stay silent.
I will stand with my fellowrangers.
I'll stand with every Americanwho believes in justice, in
conservation, and in theprotection of Republic lands.
Because this land is ourlegacy, and we must protect it,

(58:32):
not just for ourselves, but forfuture generations.
To borrow the words of Aragonfrom the Lord of the Rings.
A day may come when our publiclands are lost, when those sworn
to protect them are cast asideand when silence prevails over
action.
But it is not this day.
This day we fight.

Missy (58:54):
As moving today Thank you so much for sharing that with
this audience,

John (58:58):
absolutely.
Happy to share that.
Yeah.

Missy (59:00):
We wrap up every episode with a speed round of questions.
Just answer these with whatfirst comes to mind for you.
Okay.
What is your earliest parkmemory?

John (59:10):
Great.
Sand Dunes National Park rightbehind me here.

Missy (59:14):
What made you love the parks?

John (59:18):
just going there every summer with my family.
Yeah.
Just smelling the pinon pines,the sagebrush just listening to
nothing.
Listening to silence.

Missy (59:29):
What is your favorite thing about the parks?

John (59:31):
It's a place you can go and get rid of all the stuff
that is we carries baggage.
I know I said that before, butYeah.
Letting go of the baggage andliving life.

Missy (59:40):
What's your favorite thing to do at a park?

John (59:42):
Mike

Missy (59:44):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your bucket
list, and why?

John (59:49):
Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, and I'm okay
with twisty turns, but my mywife and my son aren't, so I've
been I should be selfish andjust go by myself.
I don't wanna put him throughthe misery of going, but I so
want to.

Missy (01:00:07):
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?

John (01:00:10):
Besides the 10 essentials, which your readers can look up
toilet paper please.
I even wrote 'em down.
Toilet paper and paper towels.
You're gonna need them.
Ziploc baggies and trash bagsand a external power bank and
cords.
'cause a lot of people don'tbring their cords, so bring a
cord for whatever you're gonnacharge.
Bring it with you.

Missy (01:00:31):
What is your favorite campfire activity

John (01:00:35):
S'mores,

Missy (01:00:36):
and do you tent, camper, or cabin?

John (01:00:40):
when I was younger, tent and sleeping pads are getting
better.
But yeah, my, my back loveshaving a nice mattress, so
probably a camper or a cabin.
I still love to backpack though

Missy (01:00:52):
And are you hiking with or without trekking poles?

John (01:00:55):
with

Missy (01:00:57):
What is your favorite trail snack?

John (01:01:00):
anything with chocolate.

Missy (01:01:03):
What is your favorite animal sighting?

John (01:01:05):
Oh, always bears.
Yeah.

Missy (01:01:09):
What is your favorite sound in the park?

John (01:01:12):
I know it sounds silly, but silence.
I love, so it is so underrated.
Silence.
Yeah.

Missy (01:01:19):
And John, what is the greatest gift that the parks
give to us?

John (01:01:23):
Oh my gosh.
You know what?
It gives to us what we all havestill inside of us, that primal
need for nature.
All of us have that within us.
Some people may be afraid to beout there in nature and stuff
like that, and it maybe it'spossible they need to get out
there and enjoy it on theirlevel.
And enjoy just gradual, justexposure to to the outdoors,

(01:01:47):
right?
The outdoors, it can beunforgiving, it can be, it can
also be beautiful.
It, there's no good or bad withMother Nature.
It just is.
And I think all that resonateswithin each of us.
It truly does.
And when you're out there,that's why I was saying at the
very beginning give yourselfthat data.
Just let go.
And then the rest of the timethat you're there in that

(01:02:08):
national park, just let ithappen.
Feel that little bit of anxietycreeping out.
It's oh, I'm on this trail.
I'm a little bit further awaythan I should be.
Oh, do I have enough water?
Do I have enough snacks withme?
Oh, do I have this?
Do I have that?
That's actually a good thing,to feel that again, because we
just have so much.
Comfort in living in thecities, right?

(01:02:28):
We do, we have everything atour beck and call, the mocha,
for me is a block away inStarbucks.
Costco is, I can see it from myback window.
It's, so getting away from thatand feeling a bit uncomfortable
is actually a good feeling.
Yeah.

Missy (01:02:45):
Yeah.
John, thank you so much forjoining

John (01:02:48):
Oh, you're welcome.

Missy (01:02:49):
I wanna remind everybody that your book, echoes of the
Badge is out.
These stories are incredible.
I highly recommend it and youcan get it at really any place
that you get your

John (01:03:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

Missy (01:03:01):
so please check that out.
And I am very grateful to youfor being on this show, for
sharing your knowledge, forsharing your passion, sharing
your love.
I stand with you.
I fight with you.
I am and I'm really grateful'cause I just love that I was
able to meet you and your familyand so I am looking forward to
maybe a reunion in San Franciscowhen I'm out there later this

(01:03:23):
year.

John (01:03:24):
You're welcome.
Anytime.
And I just wanna, I wanna thankyou for doing what you're doing
and you're introducing theNational Parks to people who may
not have ever been to anational park, so thank you for
doing that.
You're actually saving theRangers a lot of work because
you're preparing your listenersfor what to expect when they get
there.
So kudos to you.

Missy (01:03:43):
Thank you, John.
It's a passion of mine.
I think everybody should havethe gift of hugging a tree.

John (01:03:48):
Agreed.
Totally agree with that.

Missy (01:03:51):
Thank you for joining us for today's episode.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.

John (01:03:57):
Bye.

Speaker (01:03:58):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and
share on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
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For more information, pleasefollow us on Instagram at the
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Or visit [e-mail].